PDA

View Full Version : Guilty-Not Guilty **NO DISCUSSION-VOTE STATE YOUR REASON ONLY**


vlpate
05-03-2012, 12:26 AM
If you had to vote today, which would it be...

csziggy
05-03-2012, 12:41 PM
Murder in the 2nd Degree
GZ did not behave as a reason person would - pursuing someone he found suspicious enough to have called police on and carrying a weapon with a chambered bullet in a community with homes very close together. His stories do not match the evidence as we know it so far, indicating an awareness of guilt.

The most important evidence that makes it Murder in the 2nd Degree are the cries for help on the 911 recording. Two experts have ruled out that it was GZ screaming, plus his own stories do not match with those cries being his. To shoot someone screaming for help for forty long seconds indicates a depraved mind and would be the primary reason I would vote for the most severe charge if I were on the jury.

IMO, JMO, etc. which could change with new evidence.

AnaTeresa
05-03-2012, 12:58 PM
I voted manslaughter because I'm not sure GZ had the necessary mens rea (intent) for murder. I believe he shot Trayvon with the intent to cause serious harm, but I don't necessarily believe he had an intention to kill him.

gxm
05-03-2012, 01:13 PM
I voted NG (self defense) because at this point there is no evidence to prove otherwise. IMO, there's way too much reasonable doubt right now.

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 01:44 PM
It's a bit premature imo. I would have to dismiss the case since I haven't seen the evidence yet...
You can't convict based on hunches.

Desdemona
05-03-2012, 02:06 PM
With the qualifier "If you had to vote today," I voted not guilty/self defense.

That's my vote based only on the preliminary facts/evidence we have at this point. However, IMO it is premature to vote on this, because there is not enough information to consider, to come to a reasonable conclusion yet.

Agree with gxm -- way too much reasonable doubt at this point. ICBW, but IMO the prosecutor overcharged. Just not seeing 2nd degree murder, no matter what.

If there is evidence proving that GZ lied about what happened, or that he acted improperly wrt the fight, or that LE illegally colluded with him to create a better defense, I would consider changing the vote to manslaughter if the facts lead that way.

As for SYG, IMO that is a possibility. However, due to the public circus and media frenzy, and the shakiness of SYG in the public opinion arena, I'll be surprised if GZ is given immunity from prosecution. The political and public pressure may end up driving toward a trial.

IMO there is much that remains to be seen.

LinasK
05-03-2012, 03:23 PM
Murder in the 2nd Degree
GZ did not behave as a reason person would - pursuing someone he found suspicious enough to have called police on and carrying a weapon with a chambered bullet in a community with homes very close together. His stories do not match the evidence as we know it so far, indicating an awareness of guilt.

The most important evidence that makes it Murder in the 2nd Degree are the cries for help on the 911 recording. Two experts have ruled out that it was GZ screaming, plus his own stories do not match with those cries being his. To shoot someone screaming for help for forty long seconds indicates a depraved mind and would be the primary reason I would vote for the most severe charge if I were on the jury.

IMO, JMO, etc. which could change with new evidence.
I'd vote 1st degree Murder if I had that option, because I think George premeditated it. He planned to kill him the moment he saw him, IMO.

Karmady
05-03-2012, 03:30 PM
Based on the information I have now and, most importantly, the other SYG cases I've read, I would have to say not guilty SYG. That could easily change, though,

chefmom
05-03-2012, 03:51 PM
"If I had to vote today", then I would have to go with manslaughter. The only real evidence I have to base a vote on is the fact that TM is dead and GZ admits he shot him. If GZ's claims of self-defense seem plausible to a judge, then he will be released on the SYG law and this case will be over. If the judge is not convinced of self-defense, GZ will go to trial and the SA will have to prove 2nd degree. Even then, I may still go with manslaughter. I don't think GZ left his home that night thinking he would shoot someone, but I do think he made a series of bad decisions that led to TM being shot dead. JMO

Just K
05-03-2012, 04:19 PM
Experience tells me he is guilty of a lot of things, BUT I will wait for discovery from both sides and to hear and see the witness testimony. Then I will decide whether he committed voluntary manslaughter, 2nd degree murder or worse...but since he isn't charged with anything higher, I suspect, it will probably be one of the two above convictions.

But this is Florida so anything goes, IMO. I admit, given what I have learned about GZ, I am leaning toward LinasK's opinion.

shadowraiths
05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Even though I think this was not a self defense case, I stand by the "Presumption of Innocence" that has been a long tradition of our criminal justice system. For that reason, only, if I had to vote today, I would vote, "not guilty"

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:56 PM
I voted not guilty-Self Defense. The reason I do not think SYG applies, as I do not think GZ had the OPTION of retreating.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Could not in good conscience vote without seeing the evidence.

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 05:28 PM
From the info I've seen so far, I would vote Not Guilty. Self defense.

Sherbie
05-03-2012, 06:02 PM
Like others, I find it impossible to know how to vote at this point in time. I couldn't vote guilty for any defendant without even seeing the evidence against them. Maybe we can re-poll once we get discovery from each side?

Nova
05-03-2012, 06:22 PM
I know this is a "no discussion" thread, but I think it's important to repeat that 2nd Degree Murder does not require premeditation OR an intent to kill. It merely requires a "depraved" indifference to the fact your action has a good chance of causing someone's death. Like, say, shooting a gun at close range into someone's chest. (This isn't to say such a shot is always 2nd degree; there may be mitigating factors and they, I think, will be the focus of the trial.)

katydid23
05-03-2012, 06:23 PM
If I HAD to vote now, I would vote INVOLUNTARY Manslaughter. I think he created this tragic mess by getting out of the truck and following when he could have waited a few minutes for LE to arrive.

But I think the actual shooting itself was self defense, and he shot because they were fighting over control of the gun in that last tragic minute. So I cannot vote for murder charge.

saguaro
05-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Not knowing all the evidence I'd have to error on the side of the defendant and vote not guilty.

rossva
05-03-2012, 07:59 PM
I voted NG (self defense) because at this point there is no evidence to prove otherwise. IMO, there's way too much reasonable doubt right now.
__________________

JBean
05-03-2012, 10:18 PM
please state your own opinion-no discussion regarding previous posts.
Name variations on any case player like "Georgie Boy" are not allowed here. That is 100% across the board.

PaperDoll
05-03-2012, 10:57 PM
I voted 2nd degree at this point because he killed TM, admitted to it, and I personally do not believe, (and I could be wrong because I don't have all the facts, but hey, I'm going with my gut) it was in self defense :twocents: I believe he had a chance to NOT PULL the trigger :jail:

tehcloser
05-04-2012, 12:01 AM
Guilty.......if it quacks, it's a duck.

news247
05-04-2012, 12:20 AM
Guilty of Murder in the 2nd Degree - he stalked the kid down. to quote jeb bush - 'stand your ground, means, stand your ground, means stand your ground" - GZ didn't do that - he stalked him. and then killed him when the kid tried to defend himself. IMO

ynotdivein
05-04-2012, 12:39 AM
Please feel free to express your opinions about the topic at hand here, but also please refrain from name-calling.

For example: it's one thing to say that you think a case player might have racial motivations for their actions when you have clear evidence to back up that supposition (i.e., clear, MSM-supported evidence). It is a whole nother thing to flat-out call/accuse someone of being a racist.

Emotions are running high in our discussion of this case, and that's ok and to be expected. But please try to assume the best about one another, and keep the discussion inside the boundaries of TOS.

:tyou:

mikeysmommom
05-04-2012, 01:34 AM
Agree with gxm -- way too much reasonable doubt at this point.SYG not guilty.

Melanie
05-04-2012, 02:55 AM
NG = not enough evidence has been released for me to make a sound decision.

Thx.

Mel

magnolia
05-04-2012, 07:01 AM
Based on the info. we have now, I voted not guilty-SYG.

clarabelle
05-04-2012, 07:21 AM
Not Guilty/self-defence based on what few facts I have now. Too many questions for me to agree that he deserves a higher sentence. I need to know how the physical altercation between TM and GZ got started and what exactly happened before TM was shot. So far I dont see they have enough to convict GZ

angry people do not equal justice

LaLaw2000
05-04-2012, 07:27 AM
Guilty - 2nd degree murder

LiveLaughLuv
05-04-2012, 08:12 AM
Guilty 2nd degree

As of right now...

I must say when I first heard about his case, heard the call into dispatch, the horrific scream of help, heard that a NWP volunteer shot and killed an unarmed teen, SPD didn't bring charges, I believed he should have been arrested immediately..

It also didn't compute for me, that an adult brandishing a loaded weapon could be in reasonable fear of a lone teen walking back to his home. GZ already had the upper hand so how reasonable is his fear..

I tend to believe it's all embellishment on GZ part so that it goes to the idea he has of a SYG defense..which also had my hinky meter setting off...GZ being criminal justice major probably studied the statute and felt he knew just what to say and do to raise the SYG defense...:banghead:

2goldfish
05-04-2012, 09:02 AM
I didnt vote as my answer is not there :P

I thought manslaughter but the state charged second degree....until I know why I cant make a decision.

LiveLaughLuv
05-04-2012, 09:09 AM
I didnt vote as my answer is not there :P

I thought manslaughter but the state charged second degree....until I know why I cant make a decision.

There is an option for manslaughter....

Elley Mae
05-04-2012, 09:53 AM
Not Guilty self defense

tlcya
05-04-2012, 09:58 AM
If I had to vote now: Manslaughter.

At this time I don't feel convinced GZ set out to murder TM. But I feel reasonably comfortable saying the course of action GZ undertook that night, while perhaps not premeditated to end in fatality, a fatality could, by a reasonable person, be seen as a possible outcome.

tezi
05-04-2012, 11:36 AM
<Modsnip> if I had to vote today, that is why based on just the call from GZ to the dispatcher, I would vote for 2nd Degree Murder. He was told he didn't need to follow him, but he did. Therefore, I feel like "depraved" indifference comes into play.

JMO, IMO, :moo:, and all other disclaimers....

Emeralgem
05-04-2012, 11:42 AM
I voted second degree but I'm not convinced GZ is not guilty of First Degree Murder... JMHO

iluvmua
05-04-2012, 12:00 PM
Not Guilty- SYG

songline
05-04-2012, 12:34 PM
If we have to vote today, I voted Not guilty self defense.
But I have to say I am on the border line of man slaughter.
I think George was way too overzealous; IMHO he did not have to get out of the car, Even though it is legal for him to get out of the car.
ALSO: I think you can if need be shoot but not to kill. EVEN though I am told by people in different states who know more about guns than I ever would…. tell me the instructions are to kill, otherwise they come back to get you.

Steft50
05-04-2012, 12:38 PM
I voted Guilty of manslaughter. I don't believe he left his car to go kill a kid. I do believe he should have stayed in his car and none of what followed would have happened. I do believe he pulled the gun before an altercation started since I cannot see how he could have pulled it with Trayvon on top of him. I do believe he pulled the gun to force Trayvon to stay put until the cops arrived which would make him the aggressor not Trayvon in my view. I do believe there were other options available to Zimmerman before he pulled his gun. I also cannot vote for SYG because I've yet to see any evidence that supports it, and the way this law is it is up to Zimmerman to present the evidence that supports it not the other way around.

waltzingmatilda
05-04-2012, 01:08 PM
I voted Murder in the 2nd degree. Based on the evidence thus far, I view GZ as the aggressor.

Now my opinion on how the jury will vote because of that dumb (IMO) SYG law is a whole 'nother matter. I don't feel that GZ should spend life in prison BUT I wish for a felony conviction. IMHO, GZ should not be allowed to carry a gun, water gun, water hose, lazer pointer or any other object, for that matter, that he can aim at people in the neighborhood. But that's just me and MOO.

wm

rotterdam
05-04-2012, 01:10 PM
Based on the evidence so far, I voted (voluntary) manslaughter.

Fishee
05-04-2012, 01:20 PM
No vote.

I will be surprised if this goes to trial.

BuzzieCat
05-04-2012, 01:23 PM
If I were on the jury, of course I'd have to see all the evidence to make a decision in good conscience. If I am just posting an opinion and playing armchair quarterback, though, I'd vote for manslaughter.

I don't think GZ started out with the intention to shoot anyone. I doubt (though I don't know for sure) that when he actually shot TM, he was "happy" about or completely indifferent to the harm he was causing.

At the same time, he had no right to go chasing off after someone, toting a gun no less, and especially no right to try to detain someone. He had no business getting out of his vehicle, and he should have been able to figure out that harm could ensue from his actions. :twocents:

I admit I could be totally wrong and I'm not a lawyer, so maybe "depraved indifference" could include more than I think.

LolaMoon08
05-04-2012, 02:22 PM
I voted Manslaughter. Until I see the evidence that proves he murdered Trayvon in the 2nd degree, I am sticking with this. The moment he got out of that car and followed Trayvon so that he wouldn't get away made this a case of at least Manslaughter.

Alix
05-04-2012, 04:14 PM
I voted 2nd Degree Murder, but I wish I could have voted 1st Degree. GZ saw TM, saw the dark skin, didn't like what he saw, stalked TM, got out and aggressed him, and murdered him.

Nore
05-04-2012, 04:19 PM
2nd degree. He defied LE. by continuing after TM..He carried and used a gun which will tear you apart inside. George knew this. He was told NOT to carry a gun. N.W. does not work that way.IMO..

highflyer
05-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Okay. If I had to make a determination at this moment with only the information available it would be for second degree murder. My reasoning is that in the 911 call follows the neighborhood watch handbook right down the line. He's suspicious, he's this, he's that. It's like he's reading it, setting the stage.

Omachka
05-04-2012, 04:51 PM
I voted guilty of second degree murder. Actually, I believe he pre-meditated this so it would be 1st degree. I think the clicks on the 911 call were from him chambering a round so he formed intent before he even caught up to Trayvon. He was using hollow points so he meant business when he did that. I also believe that the screams were Trayvon pleading for his life and that is a sound I can't get out of my head since I listened to the recording.

Ninja Bunny
05-04-2012, 06:11 PM
Guilty 2nd degree murder

The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue, Zimmerman ignored him, took his gun and hunted the boy down and killed him. If there was a physical altercation it was Trayvon who was standing his ground against someone who stalked, harassed and physically attacked him.

Zimmerman has a history of violence and a hatred of black people.

sleonardelli
05-04-2012, 06:40 PM
Murder 2 based on my interpretation of the "evidence". That said, I could easily switch if more evidence is released and does not support the "evidence" known now. If anything, I hope this case causes legislators to redefine SYG; those who initiate the confrontation should not be allowed to kill just because the fight is not going their way.

Pray for Tray...and his family and friends.

parakeet
05-04-2012, 06:43 PM
Not guilty, self defense. It is my opinion the evidence points to self defense,,,, no way did he premeditate the act, nor did he do anything to justify TM's aggressive reaction.

HMSHood
05-04-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't have much of an opinion, but voted Not Guilty Stand Your Ground.

I think it may never go to trial.

mommakk51
05-04-2012, 06:49 PM
Not guilty. Self-Defense.

Lovelymountains
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
I voted guilty of 2nd degree murder because I believe GZ profiled TM as one of the young African Americans who "Always got away." I believe it was a hate crime and I regret not being able to vote 1st degree murder. I also believe that GZ intended to shoot TM the moment he saw him walking in the rain with a hoodie.

jaded cat
05-04-2012, 07:17 PM
I voted manslaughter because I don't think anyone should walk away from killing someone.

Indy Anna
05-04-2012, 08:34 PM
It's a difficult decision but, after studying the legal definitions of 2nd degree murder and manslaughter for a while, I voted guilty of "murder in the 2nd degree." Of course, that's just considering the "evidence" provided by MSM, which wasn't very reliable from the onset. But, I took in consideration the statement GZ allegedly made that "I knew at that point one of us was going to die" (or something of that nature). The statement suggests that GZ intended to make a fatal shot when he pulled the trigger. There are other factors, though, that would influence my decision since there are two sides to this story - that of GZ and that of TM's gf. It depends on whose testimony the evidence at the scene substantiates.

Reader
05-04-2012, 09:37 PM
2nd degree murder....GZ knew what the duties of a NW person were/are...and he proceeded to violate every one of them by:

reporting and labeling Trayvon as suspicious for no reason except WWB

following first in his truck and then on foot for no valid reason

continuing to follow after instructed to stop by dispatch

not waiting for LE to arrive when told they were on their way and would arrive in minutes....what was the urgency? he knew Trayvon was not committing a crime because he was watching him

confronting Trayvon in a hostile manner and questioning him without identifying himself and why he was following

taking his gun out of the truck with him during the stalking and confrontation

unnecessarily pulling his gun out at some point during this confrontation when he knew by that time Trayvon was unarmed...IF there was a fight I believe he started it either by trying to detain Trayvon or stopping him from leaving, and Trayvon fought back in his own defense

willfully firing a direct, close hit into Trayvon's chest with his gun loaded with hollow point bullets which he knew would cause instant death

lying about his supposed injuries, his supposed self defense and his real money

All of the above show to me that he did and does still have a 'depraved indifference' about what the results of his actions would be: murder with absolutely no regret or remorse

All IMO

francie
05-04-2012, 10:30 PM
2nd-degree murder. GZ was told not to follow but shot TM almost a football field away from his vehicle. And Trayvon was screaming for his life but George shot him anyways = depraved indifference.

But I'd vote 1st-degree if offered. Premeditation can be formed in the blink of an eye and I think George decided while chasing Trayvon that he was going to kill him, to be a hero & more importantly to prevent Trayvon from telling what really happened, that he wasn't doing anything wrong when George chased him down. How humiliating for George if cops thought he was probably crying wolf with all those 911 calls, George couldn't lose his credibility so Trayvon lost his life, imo. :(

All :moo:

TorisMom003
05-04-2012, 11:40 PM
I voted guilty of 2nd degree murder. My reasons have already been listed by others.

AJ Noiter
05-05-2012, 05:02 AM
I voted "Not Guilty (SYG)" because the only 'evidence' to date is the words at the bail hearing. Ultimately this case will come down to who attacked who. Detective Gilbreath said he had no proof either way of who attacked who, which is wrong because he does have statement(s) from Zimmerman, which is evidence no matter how you look at it. "Tie goes to the runner," in baseball - it goes to the defense in trial as it is considered "reasonable doubt" in my opinion.

With that said, I do not see how the prosecution can continue with the charges that they have filed if they do not have something in store. After discovery completes my stance may change.

scmom
05-05-2012, 09:03 AM
I'd have to vote NG/Self Defense at this time.

Bottle Cap
05-05-2012, 09:54 AM
Guilty, 2nd degree murder. The evidence for SYG is a vicious beating complete with bashed head and broken nose, but there are numerous photos and videos of Zimmerman that do not show evidence of a beating. I think Zimmerman shot Trayvon over the altercation that he himself caused, shot Trayvon because he reacted in self defense. I cannot believe that SYG laws would favor Zimmerman over Trayvon. Trayvon had a right to stand his ground against a man with a gun tailing him for no apparent reason. If Zimmerman is tried and acquitted using SYG, we can all go out tomorrow, pick on someone, and shoot them if they dont like it, claiming we believed they were going to beat us.

I believe Trayvon "making" Zimmerman have to shoot him is yet another instance of violent aggression on Zimmerman's part that he once more claims is due to others' behavior instead of his own - dangerous dangerous mentality. How many times have we heard "she made me do it" out of an abuser's mouth? Abusers are also people who have issues with control and authority, alongside an inabilitiy to take responsibility for their own actions.

Hermione
05-05-2012, 09:26 PM
Guilty, 2nd degree murder.

Reason: If GZ stayed in his car Trayvon would be alive today. He had NO business getting out of that car or following Trayvon or even hanging around...neighborhood watch? call the cops and let them handle it, leave your phone number and get out of there!

StrayKat
05-05-2012, 10:01 PM
Guilty of the 2nd! He was the aggressive one that pursued the victim.

Lovejac
05-05-2012, 11:35 PM
Guilty, 2nd degree is what I voted.

Very many different reasons why but, the biggest to me is that GZ had several opportunites to difuse the situation before it got to the point it did. Or as some others say 'retreat'.

ohiogirl
05-05-2012, 11:40 PM
Wow, this is a much more civilized thread than any of the others regarding this case.
I am truly heartened that there are those of you who feel GZ needs his day in court.
Whatever the outcome, thanks for being level headed and trying to wait until all the evidence is presented.

jmo

AngelWings444
05-06-2012, 03:22 AM
Guilty 2nd Degree Murder. I do not believe a word GZ has said, everything released so far, conflicts with the "evidence" so far. IMO - GZ was the aggressor and didn't want another @sshole to get away. All of GZ's instincts were wrong that evening and a child lost his life because of an overzealous, want to be cop, who never amounted to anything but a volunteer, self appointed, neighborhood watchman, who doesn't follow a simple order from police. I would say more, but I would get a time out like others.

Trayvon was walking home with skittles, ice tea, and talking to his girlfriend. Normal behavior for a teen boy. I am very sad for Trayvon and his family. I can't imagine what they are going through on a daily basis. It breaks my heart. No mother should have to bury their child, especially under these circumstances. The Martin's have been a pillar of strength and have more class than I ever would! GZ's family/friends...not so much. You are who you hang out with...something my Grandma used to say. So true.

I hope the inconsistent statements from GZ, prove to a jury, that GZ deserves to be in prison for a very long time. Ticking time bomb. No child should be gunned down, in the streets, while walking home from 7-11, minding his own business. Trayvon had NO obligation to GZ, PERIOD.

I will stick with the charging documents, and the truth as I see it now, until further evidence changes my mind.

JMO, MOO, IMO

HiHater
05-06-2012, 06:30 AM
Guilty, second degree murder (no surprise there, huh?) :)

I believe Trayvon was the one screaming, that's why I voted this way.

To shoot someone who is pleading for his or her life is just disgusting.

GZ was in control of the entire situation. IMO. Hold him accountable!

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Off topic and out of curiosity, why does this thread seemingly get marked as new when there's no new replies?

JBean
05-06-2012, 12:52 PM
Off topic and out of curiosity, why does this thread seemingly get marked as new when there's no new replies?
Because when someone votes it shoots the thread to the top whether there is a new post or not.

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 02:20 PM
That is indeed what it is, thanks! (quick reply so no quote, sorry lol)

iluvmua
05-06-2012, 04:12 PM
I'm going to change to self defense because so far as of now, everything backs up GZ's claims and the eye witnesses claims as to what happened.

Ninety5rpm
05-07-2012, 08:01 PM
NG self defense - insufficient evidence (at this time) for conviction of anything.

Dr.Fessel
05-09-2012, 07:09 AM
I say guilty 2nd degree murder because it appears George has lied about what happened.

Alecto
05-10-2012, 02:19 AM
(Based on information available today)

Not guilty, self defense.

The eyewitness "John" supports GZ's account which when bolstered by the audible distress that can be heard in the screams and linked with GZ's injuries make GZ a clear victim himself.

A manslaughter charge would still be possible if GZ actually started the fight but the fight location doesn't match TM's girlfriend at all. The question of why did she not come forward during the initial police investigation will kill her credibility as well.

Maxim
05-15-2012, 01:11 AM
Today, I voted NG (self defense). Nothing I've heard, so far, which indicates premeditation. Neither were doing anything illegal, both felt they had the right to do what they were doing, both were wary of the other. Two witnesses saw TM on top of GZ, and a third witness saw GZ on the ground. Each feared for his own life; both made mistakes. If TM had wrestled the gun from GZ, and all other information was the same, I would have to vote self defense for defendant TM, also.

Waiting for doc dump.

Sedona722
05-16-2012, 08:54 AM
Guilty 2nd degree murder. A teen, talking on the phone to his girlfriend, minding his own business. Walking towards his home and possibly attacked by a man out of the blue. I am sure he must have fought back. As far as I am concerned, Trayvon was fighting for his life and lost. George had intent just by bringing the gun loaded with hollow points. Besides, George did not heed the dispatcher's instructions.

Further more, the State certainly must have enough discovery to charge 2nd degree. I doubt they would frivously charge something like that.

As far as George's injuries, how do we know that Trayvon caused them? George could have caused them himself, panicking after shooting the young teen. MOO

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:39 AM
After the new release of info regarding GZ's injuries, my vote would stay the same.

Not Guilty (self defense)

iluvmua
05-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Still the same: NG, Self Defense

magnolia
05-16-2012, 04:37 PM
Same here-Not Guilty/SYG