View Full Version : 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #36
LinasK
05-03-2012, 07:39 PM
They may not have but it sure would bolster her story had she made an attempt to report something.
Why? When she was 250 miles away with no address to give Sanford PD. :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:Miami PD sure as heck wouldn't have responded...
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Lawyers aren't under oath in court, are they? Unless they're the defendant or a witness.
While not directly under oath in the court, they are under an oath of the bar to not allow perjury, close enough for me.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Well, he WAS a lawyer, and one of his quotes, [Rufus Rockwell Wilson, Lincoln Among His Friends: A Sheaf of Intimate Memories (Philip Clark, "A Friend of Lincoln's New Salem Days"), p. 65.], is, "I hain't been caught Lying yet, and I don't mean to be."
Of course, from a person who has used many lawyers over the years, I have to point out that he said he hadn't been CAUGHT, not that he hadn't LIED, LMAO!
He seemed pretty certain he would never get caught and that could be because he never lied. I'm sure whatever Lincoln said was hashed over hundreds of times to find some type of error on his part. Obviously Lincoln knew what he meant when he spoke those words. jmo
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:40 PM
Why? When she was 250 miles away with no address to give Sanford PD. :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:Miami PD sure as heck wouldn't have responded...
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:41 PM
While not directly under oath in the court, they are under an oath of the bar to not allow perjury, close enough for me.
And it's not perjury to MOM until he receives the discovery. jmo
vlpate
05-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Great post!
Something I would like to see them clarify (because it seems inconsistent or otherwise mysterious to me) is this:
If I've understood GZ's story correctly or if it's been relayed correctly by the various second hand sources he says he saw TM from his vehicle when he was driving to Target. He thought TM was suspicious,stopped, parked his truck and called 911 to report a suspicious individual.
Two minutes into the call, TM started coming toward GZ, staring at him, then took off running. "A beeping sound is heard, indicating that he has opened his car door." Zimmerman went after Trayvon and, out of breath, muttered profanities. He lost sight of him.Link (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/v-fullstory/2725442/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html)
He exited his truck and started following TM on foot
But he didn't know where TM was, just that he was headed toward the back gate.
but was almost immediately told to stop by the dispatcher, which he did. He changed direction and went to get an address from somewhere that TM wasn't at, then turned back to walk to his truck. At this point an irate TM attacked him and asked him, why are you following me, or what's your problem homes, or something to that effect. Possibly he asked first and attacked second, I'm not completely sure.
I don't know that I believe TM was irate, his g/f said he seemed scared. Good point though, why would he be irate if he was running "scared". I could see him being irate if he had been up to something and thought GZ was screwing things up for him. According to the g/f, TM asked first: "why are you following me", "what are you stopping me for". GZ said, "I'm not", or "who are you". Both have a variety of versions. GZ had stopped following him 2 minutes before this altercation, and the g/f said TM told her he lost him. So how could he perceive that GZ was still following?
Does this sound about right?
Save for the part where Trayvon is either running scared (of GZ or of getting caught at something), or running home.
If so... why did TM attack GZ? Whatever had GZ done to attract his attention at all? Why on earth would he be mad at somebody who sits in his truck having a phone conversation, then walks a very short distance towards him, then turns and goes away?
I don't think he was walking toward him when he ran away, it was TM, according to the 911 call, walking toward GZ.
He didn't own the retreat so he wouldn't have had the expectation that he should have all the sidewalks for himself. It wouldn't have appeared like GZ was following him if he turned away very shortly. GZ says he didn't confront TM to make any demands of him.
IIRC, GZ never said he confronted TM at all.
So why would TM even notice him? Why would he think that GZ was following him? Why would he think that GZ had a problem? Why would he be mad enough to beat him up?
Great question, why? Why did he run and suddenly decide he was mad enough to go back? Did he actually make it home, drop something off, and come back around to confront this guy who he thinks might have witnessed something?
If TM had heard the 911 conversation he could have been mad about GZ reporting him but would he have started a fight if he knew that the police was already on the way? it sounds like a certain way to be busted, and the impression I get from the 911 call is that TM wasn't close enough to hear the conversation anyway.
I agree, I doubt he heard any part of the 911 call.
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 07:42 PM
They may not have but it sure would bolster her story had she made an attempt to report something.
I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that the furthest thing from her mind was that her boyfriend was shot dead by some gun toting vigalante looking to make sure "they don't get away again"
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 07:43 PM
Not from Miami PD, it wouldn't.:snooty: It was just stated they are 250 miles away, and she didn't have an address to give Sanford PD, and they were already on their way!
So then its not worth trying I guess your saying?
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 07:43 PM
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George Zimmerman told investigators that while he was on the phone with a Sanford police dispatcher reporting Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle on foot, a source familiar with the investigation told the Orlando Sentinel.
The source said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher.
This article is awesome!!
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:44 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
TM's parents did not know who she was. I doubt she even knew who they were or where to find them until everything hit the papers. Adults make adult decisions, kids don't usually have enough life experience to know exactly what to do. We think like adults, kids......not so much. jmo
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 07:44 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
Because that's what teenagers do, right?
rossva
05-03-2012, 07:44 PM
BBM. That is incorrect. Wrong. They did not do a drug test on Martin on site. They did a tox screen as part of the SOP during the autopsy. I would love to see a link claiming they did the drug test while Martin was laying there in the grass.
There was barely a response to Trayvon's body laying there dead on the grass. They did a half-arse crime scene investigation and did a drug test on a dead young man laying there in the grass and you really really think they would have rushed out there if Trayvon's gf would have called 911. I think that is a fantasy.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
After three weeks, it's hard to find any sort of excuse for not calling. If her mother took her to the hospital, and she knew the girl had been on the phone with TM, she should have contacted the family - by that time they were on every news channel in the US.
JMO
LinasK
05-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
I seriously doubt relaying a message to Sanford PD would be a priority for Miami PD, especially if there wasn't a known crime in progress...
Now you or I would've called Sabrina or Tracy, but then neither of us is a 15-year-old minority girl who is 250 miles away from her boyfriend when something happens, JMO!
Then again, she may not have met his parents or had their contact numbers... I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Because that's what teenagers do, right?
That's what human beings do, IMO.
Karmady
05-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Lawyers aren't under oath in court, are they? Unless they're the defendant or a witness.
Lawyers have a duty of candor toward the tribunal. They don't lie in court unless they want to run the risk of disbarment. They can, however, ask extremely misleading questions that are not based on actual fact, subject to the other party's right to object and the risk of po'ing the Judge if they get carried away. jmo.
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_3_candor_toward_the_tribunal.html
jaded cat
05-03-2012, 07:48 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
I don't think we're supposed to be discussing what the GF did or didn't do that night. She is a minor.
mikeysmommom
05-03-2012, 07:48 PM
Do you call 911 everytime you lose someone on a cell phone?
If they tell me they are being followed,then I hear a confrontation I sure as heck would call 911 as soon as call was lost!
Elley Mae
05-03-2012, 07:49 PM
I dont doubt they were on the phone at some point, but I dont believe that the girl friend was alarmed by anything she heard or else she would have called 911.
This makes so much sense now. I could not for the life of me believe that she would not say something if she thought TM was in trouble. It will be very interesting to know that they were not on the phone when this happened. All smoke and mirrors that she "knows" something. jmo
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 07:50 PM
BBM. That is incorrect. Wrong. They did not do a drug test on Martin on site. They did a tox screen as part of the SOP during the autopsy. I would love to see a link claiming they did the drug test while Martin was laying there in the grass.
Remember: Convicting on circumstantial evidence & assumptions (because the prosecution couldn’t produce any REAL FACTUAL EVIDENCE) is convenient – and would have made a lot of clueless people very happy in this case – BUT JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE.
BBM
Are you referring to Trayvon?
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 07:51 PM
You Lost me mommakk51. Not at all being snarky, just think I'm not getting what you are saying. Are you saying he had to be outside his patio doors to lock them? I'm sure I'm just not getting what you are saying because that doesn't make sense. TIA for explaining this to me.
pcrum12
I was assuming that he had one of the enclosed patio's, and if that were the case, he would have been outside of his actual apartment, when he locked the door that led outside from the patio. :moo:
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 07:51 PM
I don't think we're supposed to be discussing what the GF did or didn't do that night. She is a minor.
I thought we weren't allowed to discuss the GF either...
mikeysmommom
05-03-2012, 07:51 PM
After three weeks, it's hard to find any sort of excuse for not calling. If her mother took her to the hospital, and she knew the girl had been on the phone with TM, she should have contacted the family - by that time they were on every news channel in the US.
JMO
I have not seen any conformation that she was in hospital. I have seen where Mr.Crump said she was in the hospital.JMO
flourish
05-03-2012, 07:52 PM
So then its not worth trying I guess your saying?
IMO, if that's what the poster was saying, they would have said that.
Perhaps asking for clarification without presumption would be more effective.
My interpretation was that the girl was miles and miles away and may or may not have known the exact location of TM in order to TRY to give ANY helpful information. I don't know many teenagers who know which police departments cover which areas in their entire state.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 07:52 PM
If they tell me they are being followed,then I hear a confrontation I sure as heck would call 911 as soon as call was lost!
Why? When she was 250 miles away with no address to give Sanford PD. :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:Miami PD sure as heck wouldn't have responded...
Quoting myself in response.
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 07:53 PM
One of those inconsistencies: Zimmerman told police Trayvon had his hand over Zimmerman's mouth during their fight on the night he shot Trayvon.
The Sentinel's source confirmed that Zimmerman's statements include that allegation. But authorities do not believe that happened, the source told the Sentinel, because on one 911 call, someone can be heard screaming for help. If it were Zimmerman, as he claims, his cries were not muffled, the source said.
Zimmerman also told police, the source told the Sentinel, that while the two were on the ground, Trayvon reached for Zimmerman's gun, and the two struggled over it.
Trayvon needs more hands imo.
If he had one hand on GZ's mouth muffling him, another hand trying to grab the gun, which appendage did he use to bash GZ's head to the concrete?
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by LambChop
Yep. That's about it. He gave a number of statements and the State maintains there were some inconsistencies in his statements. How many, we do not know for sure. The only one the investigator mentioned was TM circling the truck three times which is inconsistent with GZ's story of being attacked at the cut through. jmo
Can you please tell me where this is? I've read the entire transcript a couple of times and cannot find it. Maybe it was during a commercial break and didn't make the transcript? TIA
1. The word "circling" was used by BD, along with an incredulous circl-ey hand motion, when cross-examining DG, IMO for damage control purposes.
2. BD was referring to DG's earlier testimony under examination by O'M, that GZ had told LE that TM "ran around" the location where his vehicle was, which caused him to feel frightened of TM.
3. IMO the only implication that the "circling" was inconsistent with GZ's statement was when BD suggested that it didn't make sense for GZ to get out of his vehicle to follow TM if the "circling" had caused him to feel fear, to which DG agreed.
(Please note that this re-framing nevertheless does NOT prove GZ made any inconsistent statements, and also that both BD the questioner and DG the witness happen to be co-authors of the charging document.)
IMO we will probably learn that GZ's statement(s) include some mention of GZ having been surprised to re-encounter TM while on the way back to his vehicle, thus realizing that TM must have circled back, backtracked, done and end-run -- back in the direction toward where GZ's vehicle was, after he had initially run toward the back entrance and presumably "gotten away." And that this is when/where the confrontation occurred. JMO
--
And btw, the only Google hits I get for Trayvon circling GZ's vehicle three times link back to WS. JMO
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:54 PM
Great post!
Two minutes into the call, TM started coming toward GZ, staring at him, then took off running. "A beeping sound is heard, indicating that he has opened his car door." Zimmerman went after Trayvon and, out of breath, muttered profanities. He lost sight of him.Link (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/v-fullstory/2725442/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html)
But he didn't know where TM was, just that he was headed toward the back gate.
I don't know that I believe TM was irate, his g/f said he seemed scared. Good point though, why would he be irate if he was running "scared". I could see him being irate if he had been up to something and thought GZ was screwing things up for him. According to the g/f, TM asked first: "why are you following me", "what are you stopping me for". GZ said, "I'm not", or "who are you". Both have a variety of versions. GZ had stopped following him 2 minutes before this altercation, and the g/f said TM told her he lost him. So how could he perceive that GZ was still following?
Save for the part where Trayvon is either running scared (of GZ or of getting caught at something), or running home.
I don't think he was walking toward him when he ran away, it was TM, according to the 911 call, walking toward GZ.
IIRC, GZ never said he confronted TM at all.
Great question, why? Why did he run and suddenly decide he was mad enough to go back? Did he actually make it home, drop something off, and come back around to confront this guy who he thinks might have witnessed something?
I agree, I doubt he heard any part of the 911 call.
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
FTR, the dispatcher did NOT tell GZ to stop, she asked if he was following, then said they didn't need him to do that. NOT an "order" to stop. The dispatcher then ALSO continued to pump GZ for information as he was trying to find TM. Not exactly a sign that they WANTED him to stop.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 07:54 PM
TM's parents did not know who she was. I doubt she even knew who they were or where to find them until everything hit the papers. Adults make adult decisions, kids don't usually have enough life experience to know exactly what to do. We think like adults, kids......not so much. jmo
I would hope they knew who she was, who TM's was dating. Surely.
Crump: (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html) "This was her really, really close personal friend. They were dating."
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 07:55 PM
I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that the furthest thing from her mind was that her boyfriend was shot dead by some gun toting vigalante looking to make sure "they don't get away again"
Why would that be the FURTHEST thing from her mind? According to her TM was being followed, TM was scared, and she heard the beginning of a confrontation where she can quote what both of them said......and then the line went dead. You think the FURTHEST thing from her mind would be that TM is in some kind of trouble?
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:56 PM
Great post!
Two minutes into the call, TM started coming toward GZ, staring at him, then took off running. "A beeping sound is heard, indicating that he has opened his car door." Zimmerman went after Trayvon and, out of breath, muttered profanities. He lost sight of him.Link (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/v-fullstory/2725442/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html)
But he didn't know where TM was, just that he was headed toward the back gate.
I don't know that I believe TM was irate, his g/f said he seemed scared. Good point though, why would he be irate if he was running "scared". I could see him being irate if he had been up to something and thought GZ was screwing things up for him. According to the g/f, TM asked first: "why are you following me", "what are you stopping me for". GZ said, "I'm not", or "who are you". Both have a variety of versions. GZ had stopped following him 2 minutes before this altercation, and the g/f said TM told her he lost him. So how could he perceive that GZ was still following?
Save for the part where Trayvon is either running scared (of GZ or of getting caught at something), or running home.
I don't think he was walking toward him when he ran away, it was TM, according to the 911 call, walking toward GZ.
IIRC, GZ never said he confronted TM at all.
Great question, why? Why did he run and suddenly decide he was mad enough to go back? Did he actually make it home, drop something off, and come back around to confront this guy who he thinks might have witnessed something?
I agree, I doubt he heard any part of the 911 call.
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
Trayvon needs more hands imo.
If he had one hand on GZ's mouth muffling him, another hand trying to grab the gun, which appendage did he use to bash GZ's head to the concrete?
Actually, that is self explainitory. GZ is trying to get up, thus exerting pressure upwards, TM is on top, covering his mouth and nose, pushing downward. TM has the added force of his body weight as well as gravity, which is more than enough to overcome GZ's neck muscles and force his head down.
rossva
05-03-2012, 07:56 PM
As far as I know, no evidence has yet been presented in the George Zimmerman self defense case. And, although many seem to have already convicted George Zimmerman, that hasn't happened in a court of law.
So, to answer your question, no, it's not. It is, however, about your favorite acquitted individual.
Remember: Convicting on circumstantial evidence & assumptions (because the prosecution couldn’t produce any REAL FACTUAL EVIDENCE) is convenient – and would have made a lot of clueless people very happy in this case – BUT JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE.
BBM
Are you referring to Trayvon?
mikeysmommom
05-03-2012, 07:57 PM
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George Zimmerman told investigators that while he was on the phone with a Sanford police dispatcher reporting Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle on foot, a source familiar with the investigation told the Orlando Sentinel.
The source said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher.
This article is awesome!!
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
Maybe TM's circling of his car is what GZ was talking about when he said he was acting suspicious and might be on drugs. I would think someone was high if they did that to me.When I call police I usually do not go into every minute detail with them, I usually wait for the police to show up and then explain the complete situation.JMO but thats how I do it.
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 07:57 PM
Why would that be the FURTHEST thing from her mind? According to her TM was being followed, TM was scared, and she heard the beginning of a confrontation where she can quote what both of them said......and then the line went dead. You think the FURTHEST thing from her mind would be that TM is in some kind of trouble?
Are you 16? If you're not I don't know how you can even slightly know what a teenager would do in that situation. I don't know if I at that age would have called 911. Now that I'm an old fa*t yes, but at that age probably not. I might mention it to a friend or parent, but doubt I would call 911.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Can you please tell me where this is? I've read the entire transcript a couple of times and cannot find it. Maybe it was during a commercial break and didn't make the transcript? TIA
And the detective testified that the statements GZ gave were also inconsistent with the evidence the SA has.Yes, the detective did state that... the same detective who is co-author and signatory to the charging document, which states that Trayvon was "trying to run home" and other details, which I believe will be proven inconsistent with the actual evidence. JMO
LinasK
05-03-2012, 07:58 PM
FTR, the dispatcher did NOT tell GZ to stop, she asked if he was following, then said they didn't need him to do that. NOT an "order" to stop. The dispatcher then ALSO continued to pump GZ for information as he was trying to find TM. Not exactly a sign that they WANTED him to stop.
We've already hashed this out on other threads. It's an indirect order, a more formal polite way to say the same thing- the meaning is clear: don't follow!
Even George's previous lawyer in another case said he doesn't follow instructions well- he wants to find it out for himself! Probably why he never made in into a police academy.
I would hope they knew who she was, who TM's was dating. Surely.
Crump: (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html) "This was her really, really close personal friend. They were dating."
I imagine things have changed since the days when most families had just the one phone and parents knew who was calling their kids. Nowadays, kids have so many ways to communicate, it wouldn't be hard to conceal a boyfriend or girlfriend from your parents (just out of shyness; I'm not suggesting a major conspiracy).
pcrum12
05-03-2012, 07:59 PM
And said what?
"My call with my boyfriend was disconnected. He is somewhere 250 miles away; I don't know the address. But I heard a stranger ask him a couple of questions."
Somehow I don't see 911 jumping on that one... I'm not sure *I* would have known what to do under those circumstances and I'm a lot older than 15.
IIRC the GF claims that their conversation about GZ was much more involved, not just a mention. TM told her he was being followed even. She even told him to run! If true, I would think she would have at least told her parents or someone. As far as 911, she could have given his cell number and maybe they could have found his location and got call to appropriate jurisdiction. I mean, surely TM had told her I'm in Sanford FL. Instead, it appears MOO that she didn't give it a second thought and went about her normal daily life. Just seems hinky to me. JMO and :moo:
LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:59 PM
This makes so much sense now. I could not for the life of me believe that she would not say something if she thought TM was in trouble. It will be very interesting to know that they were not on the phone when this happened. All smoke and mirrors that she "knows" something. jmo
She was subpoened to testify to the Grand Jury. So what do you think she was going to discuss with them? And wouldn't SA have the documentation to back it up seeing how important her testimony was that she received a subpoena????? We've seen TM's phone record and the length of time he was on the phone with the GF. It was also reported they spent 400 minutes of telephone time talking that day. jmo
Concerned Papa
05-03-2012, 07:59 PM
Hmm,, yes, I do notice a color difference between the different rows of buildings, also duly noted that there was no enclosed patio on 2861. However, I found no John at all on Twin Trees Lane... maybe I am using the wrong site to search? Here is what I have:
http://www.seminoletax.org/dev/addresslist.asp?DataSearch=TWIN+TREES&Results=10&CurrentPage=1 :moo:
IDK, you're using the Seminole Tax Collector's site and I'm using the Seminole Property Appraiser's site. Not sure why it doesn't come up at the Tax Collector's site, but got to this link:
http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/
Click on Address....then enter TWIN TREES in the search window.....click Execute Search.....when the list comes up, go down to the 10th property owner down from the top.....click on that parcel and the plat and owner's info comes up.
I learned a long time ago the value of an appraiser's site in any county in FL. Tons of info is available. You can go from plat view to aerial view with a click if you choose.
Hope this helps.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 07:59 PM
Trayvon needs more hands imo.
If he had one hand on GZ's mouth muffling him, another hand trying to grab the gun, which appendage did he use to bash GZ's head to the concrete?
The hand he was using to cover his mouth? A 6'3" person is going to have pretty big hands. I would imagine GZ was lifting his head while trying to move away from the cement and TM was slamming it back down with the hand over his mouth. JMO
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Actually, that is self explainitory. GZ is trying to get up, thus exerting pressure upwards, TM is on top, covering his mouth and nose, pushing downward. TM has the added force of his body weight as well as gravity, which is more than enough to overcome GZ's neck muscles and force his head down.
It might be enough to push his head downward but merely pushing his head downward is not the kind of repeated bashing that was described and allegedly caused a fear of life-altering brain injury. It requires a back and forth motion which is impossible if one is simultaneously using one's body weight to muffle the mouth and push the head down.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Are you 16? If you're not I don't know how you can even slightly know what a teenager would do in that situation. I don't know if I at that age would have called 911. Now that I'm an old fa*t yes, but at that age probably not. I might mention it to a friend or parent, but doubt I would call 911.
Actually, being 16 would be MORE of a reason to call 911. You ever meet a 16 year old that didn't LIVE and LOVE to be in the middle or DRAMA?
flourish
05-03-2012, 08:02 PM
Of course not, but they could have relayed a message. I am sure she knew he was at The Retreat in Sanford. Maybe a call to his DAD or MOM? SOMETHING to indicate she was as concerned at the time as she claimed to be after the fact.
Why are you sure that she knew he was at "The Retreat in Sanford?" Is there a link stating she knew the name of the complex he was staying at? I couldn't tell you the names of the complexes my friends live in, in or out of town...
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:02 PM
The hand he was using to cover his mouth? A 6'3" person is going to have pretty big hands. I would imagine GZ was lifting his head while trying to move away from the cement and TM was slamming it back down with the hand over his mouth. JMO
It would have been easy for GZ to stop the near-fatal head bashing then by just stopping to lift his head and try to move in a rolling motion instead.
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 08:03 PM
Considering she lost her baby boy I would think there would be a lot of questions that Sabrina wants answered. GZ's explanation was self serving and totally ridiculous!
GZ's apology was exactly what Sybrina had spoke of in the media. He told her he was sorry for her loss, that he did not know how old Tray was, or if he was armed. Those were questions that Sybrina had asked. He had an explanation about why he could not talk to them until that day- he'd been advised not to.
IF it is true, that GZ had ptsd after all this happened, then the first step to him getting better would be to face what caused it. He faced it. His apology served both him, and Sybrina, as she got the answers she was looking for. I didn't see a thing wrong with it. :moo::moo::moo:
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:03 PM
Trayvon needs more hands imo.
If he had one hand on GZ's mouth muffling him, another hand trying to grab the gun, which appendage did he use to bash GZ's head to the concrete?
George Zimmerman's lies will all come back to haunt him (and prosecute him) How will a jury every believe a WORD he says about the "attack" (which the whole SYG defense hinges upon) when he has lied so many times.
I can't wait!!
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:03 PM
It might be enough to push his head downward but merely pushing his head downward is not the kind of repeated bashing that was described and allegedly caused a fear of life-altering brain injury. It requires a back and forth motion which is impossible if one is simultaneously using one's body weight to muffle the mouth and push the head down.
Not really. When GZ's head is raised, there is no resistance, so it is easier to push it down. When it reaches the hard surface (concrete or whatever), the force required increases, and the pain gives GZ a boost of adrenaline, giving him the force to push back. When TM feels the head rising again, he applies more force and it goes back down.
Actually, quite easy to see it happening that way.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:03 PM
As far as 911, she could have given his cell number and maybe they could have found his location and got call to appropriate jurisdiction. I mean, surely TM had told her I'm in Sanford FL.
Maybe not. We haven't heard where TM's cell was found, only that it was locked. Her calling 911 would NOT have made the difference between life and death for TM in this case, so we really ought to stop picking on the girlfriend's actions.
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:04 PM
Actually, being 16 would be MORE of a reason to call 911. You ever meet a 16 year old that didn't LIVE and LOVE to be in the middle or DRAMA?
No, can't say that I have!!
Trayvon needs more hands imo.
If he had one hand on GZ's mouth muffling him, another hand trying to grab the gun, which appendage did he use to bash GZ's head to the concrete?
I've not read anything that says Trayvon was doing all of those things at the same exact time.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:05 PM
IIRC the GF claims that their conversation about GZ was much more involved, not just a mention. TM told her he was being followed even. She even told him to run! If true, I would think she would have at least told her parents or someone. As far as 911, she could have given his cell number and maybe they could have found his location and got call to appropriate jurisdiction. I mean, surely TM had told her I'm in Sanford FL. Instead, it appears MOO that she didn't give it a second thought and went about her normal daily life. Just seems hinky to me. JMO and :moo:
She said she tried to call him back. Her parents may have been out for the evening. He was suppose to be in a safe environment, a gated community. I doubt he told her his exact location other than he was in Sanford. I'm sure she was concerned but never expected he was dead. Obviously she ended up in the hospital when she heard she had talked with him right before he died. It's really not fair to speculate about what a 15/16 year old should have done when we are adults putting our expectations on her. Kids do not always think about dying, or someone dying and in particular someone their age dying. It's not the first thing they think will happened to someone. jmo
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 08:06 PM
This makes so much sense now. I could not for the life of me believe that she would not say something if she thought TM was in trouble. It will be very interesting to know that they were not on the phone when this happened. All smoke and mirrors that she "knows" something. jmo
I personally feel very bad for her because I think (IMO) quite possibly words are being put in her mouth.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:06 PM
GZ's apology was exactly what Sybrina had spoke of in the media. He told her he was sorry for her loss, that he did not know how old Tray was, or if he was armed. Those were questions that Sybrina had asked. He had an explanation about why he could not talk to them until that day- he'd been advised not to.
IF it is true, that GZ had ptsd after all this happened, then the first step to him getting better would be to face what caused it. He faced it. His apology served both him, and Sybrina, as she got the answers she was looking for. I didn't see a thing wrong with it. :moo::moo::moo:
What was wrong with it, was that it was a disingenous apology forced by his lawyer, much like Casey Anthony's phony apology in court to her friend that she stole from! Too little, too late!
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:07 PM
Maybe TM's circling of his car is what GZ was talking about when he said he was acting suspicious and might be on drugs. I would think someone was high if they did that to me.When I call police I usually do not go into every minute detail with them, I usually wait for the police to show up and then explain the complete situation.JMO but thats how I do it.
he was NOT in the car! He explicitly told the operator he was pursuing trayvon! If Trayvon was circling his car (initially) WHY on earth would Zimmerman THEN get out and pursue him? If this was the case.. well there goes the SYG defense for George!
Either way George is a liar.
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:08 PM
GZ's apology was exactly what Sybrina had spoke of in the media. He told her he was sorry for her loss, that he did not know how old Tray was, or if he was armed. Those were questions that Sybrina had asked. He had an explanation about why he could not talk to them until that day- he'd been advised not to.
IF it is true, that GZ had ptsd after all this happened, then the first step to him getting better would be to face what caused it. He faced it. His apology served both him, and Sybrina, as she got the answers she was looking for. I didn't see a thing wrong with it. :moo::moo::moo:
If Trayvon had been your Son would GZ's apology make everything all better?
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:08 PM
Maybe TM's circling of his car is what GZ was talking about when he said he was acting suspicious and might be on drugs. I would think someone was high if they did that to me.When I call police I usually do not go into every minute detail with them, I usually wait for the police to show up and then explain the complete situation.JMO but thats how I do it.
It's possible but GZ offers the information about TM being suspicious and on drugs very early in the 911 call. If the circling of his car was what alerted him to TM being suspicious, how did that happen? The car would have to be parked in order for a pedestrian to circle it suspiciously but GZ was on his way to Target to buy some groceries and would have been driving when he saw TM. Why did he stop?
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 08:09 PM
IMO, if that's what the poster was saying, they would have said that.
Perhaps asking for clarification without presumption would be more effective.
My interpretation was that the girl was miles and miles away and may or may not have known the exact location of TM in order to TRY to give ANY helpful information. I don't know many teenagers who know which police departments cover which areas in their entire state.
I find the more likely conclusion is that she did not hear anything that alarmed her.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:09 PM
It would have been easy for GZ to stop the near-fatal head bashing then by just stopping to lift his head and try to move in a rolling motion instead.
See, THIS is where, imo, the supporters of TM lose all credibility. He is LAYING on the ground, with a 6'3' manchild covering his mouth and nose, and ALL he had to do was THINK (tough to do when you have, per GZ, been punched in the nose, and are being suffocated) about how to get away. When you are being starved for oxygen, your body AUTOMATICALLY reacts to get air inside.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:10 PM
Actually, being 16 would be MORE of a reason to call 911. You ever meet a 16 year old that didn't LIVE and LOVE to be in the middle or DRAMA?
Teenage drama... not parent and police drama.
katydid23
05-03-2012, 08:10 PM
She said she tried to call him back. Her parents may have been out for the evening. He was suppose to be in a safe environment, a gated community. I doubt he told her his exact location other than he was in Sanford. I'm sure she was concerned but never expected he was dead. Obviously she ended up in the hospital when she heard she had talked with him right before he died. It's really not fair to speculate about what a 15/16 year old should have done when we are adults putting our expectations on her. Kids do not always think about dying, or someone dying and in particular someone their age dying. It's not the first thing they think will happened to someone. jmo
BBM
Are we sure about that?
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:12 PM
We've already hashed this out on other threads. It's an indirect order, a more formal polite way to say the same thing- the meaning is clear: don't follow!
Even George's previous lawyer in another case said he doesn't follow instructions well- he wants to find it out for himself! Probably why he never made in into a police academy.
So why keep ASKING him about the situation? Why not get "unpolite" and tell him to STOP? Say you are fixing my car for me, and I say, "You don't have to do that...but it is making this weird noise when I turn the wheel." Does that indicate that I want you to STOP IMMEDIATELY, or that you don't HAVE to do it, but since you ARE, here is what I need?
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:12 PM
Maybe not. We haven't heard where TM's cell was found, only that it was locked. Her calling 911 would NOT have made the difference between life and death for TM in this case, so we really ought to stop picking on the girlfriend's actions.
Plus we do have her phone records so we do not know who she might have tried to call besides TM. jmo
Elley Mae
05-03-2012, 08:12 PM
I personally feel very bad for her because I think (IMO) quite possibly words are being put in her mouth.
Personally I though it wrong that crump had access to her before LE, that's just me.
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:13 PM
I've not read anything that says Trayvon was doing all of those things at the same exact time.
No, I guess nobody explicitly said that all this happened at the same time but we have heard versions that say that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life, because he was losing consciousness and couldn't breathe because Trayvon's hand forced him to swallow the blood that came out of his nose. We have also heard that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life because his head was being bashed against the concrete and one more hit would have had him in diapers and fed by his brother. We have also heard that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life because TM was trying to get his gun. It seems to me that all this is alleged to have happened at the moment it became crystal clear to him that he was going to die unless he shot TM.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:13 PM
She was subpoened to testify to the Grand Jury. So what do you think she was going to discuss with them? And wouldn't SA have the documentation to back it up seeing how important her testimony was that she received a subpoena????? We've seen TM's phone record and the length of time he was on the phone with the GF. It was also reported they spent 400 minutes of telephone time talking that day. jmo
She didn't quite receive the subpoena - but a "source close to the situation" said one was being prepared. This article also states, probably the same "situation source", that the girl's parents called SPD, but they never interviewed her. And still, neither she, nor her mother, ever called the Martins.
"The 17-year-old was on the phone with his girlfriend as Zimmerman began to follow him, and because she is a minor, RadarOnline.com isn't disclosing her name. The Sanford Police Department never questioned Trayvon's girlfriend, even though her parents contacted the cops to tell them she wanted to come in for a sit down interview.
"Trayvon's girlfriend has been told that the Florida State Attorney's Office has prepared a subpoena for her to appear in front of the grand jury. She has hired a lawyer to advise her and make sure that her rights are protected. Her attorney has told prosecutors that she is ready to appear and is looking forward to telling the grand jury what really happened on February 26," a source close to the situation tells RadarOnline.com." (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/trayvon-martin-cellphone-girlfriend-subpoena-grand-jury-florida)
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:14 PM
See, THIS is where, imo, the supporters of TM lose all credibility. He is LAYING on the ground, with a 6'3' manchild covering his mouth and nose, and ALL he had to do was THINK (tough to do when you have, per GZ, been punched in the nose, and are being suffocated) about how to get away. When you are being starved for oxygen, your body AUTOMATICALLY reacts to get air inside.
pretty soon GZ will have brain damage from lack of oxygen. :banghead:
Are you 16? If you're not I don't know how you can even slightly know what a teenager would do in that situation. I don't know if I at that age would have called 911. Now that I'm an old fa*t yes, but at that age probably not. I might mention it to a friend or parent, but doubt I would call 911.
But what about the next day when she finds out that TM has been shot and killed? Wouldn't she then call someone to let them know what happened the last time she talked to TM? I mean, the last time she is talking to TM he tells her there is a man following him, she hears words exchanged and what she describes as a push and the phone goes dead. No answer when she calls back and the next day she learns of the death, but still doesn't contact his parents???
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:15 PM
When the LE dispatcher asked GZ how old he thought TM was he said late teens. On the stand he said a little younger than he was. (25, 26???). That's the lie. Could be he forgot what he told the dispatcher. I think GZ may have a history of telling people what they want to hear. At the bond hearing he was clearly trying to redeem himself in the eyes of the Martins. jmoThank you, but I am well aware of what was said by GZ, both on the call and during the hearing. I respectfully but heartily disagree that his statement on the stand proves that he lied. JMO
GZ most definitely did not specify an age or an approximate age in digits, as you've done in parentheses in your post. IMO it might be misleading to give any uninformed posters here the impression that GZ stated a specific number on the stand. He did not.
He said he thought TM was a little younger than his own age. GZ is 28. There is a range of possibility there, as to how old he thought TM was upon encountering him in person. JMO
jaded cat
05-03-2012, 08:15 PM
See, THIS is where, imo, the supporters of TM lose all credibility. He is LAYING on the ground, with a 6'3' manchild covering his mouth and nose, and ALL he had to do was THINK (tough to do when you have, per GZ, been punched in the nose, and are being suffocated) about how to get away. When you are being starved for oxygen, your body AUTOMATICALLY reacts to get air inside.
Do you have a link that states that as a fact? I thought as of yet, we don't know what happened.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:15 PM
So why keep ASKING him about the situation? Why not get "unpolite" and tell him to STOP? Say you are fixing my car for me, and I say, "You don't have to do that...but it is making this weird noise when I turn the wheel." Does that indicate that I want you to STOP IMMEDIATELY, or that you don't HAVE to do it, but since you ARE, here is what I need?
Other posters here who are more familiar with police dispatch practices have said that there may be a script the dispatchers use or that they are told not to issue direct orders.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
If Trayvon had been your Son would GZ's apology make everything all better?
Nothing will EVER make it all better. But you CANNOT, as the Martins did, REJECT an offer to speak with GZ for an apology, then say he wouldn't GIVE an apology, then say the apology he DID give was self serving. You have to pick ONE side and stick with it.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
So why keep ASKING him about the situation? Why not get "unpolite" and tell him to STOP? Say you are fixing my car for me, and I say, "You don't have to do that...but it is making this weird noise when I turn the wheel." Does that indicate that I want you to STOP IMMEDIATELY, or that you don't HAVE to do it, but since you ARE, here is what I need?
Because the dispatcher got an answer of "okay" which he assumed GZ understood his request. Had he known GZ still intended to follow, the dispatcher would have never hung up the phone and given GZ a direct order because his safety was in jeopardy along with anyone else within the area because GZ had a gun and did not let LE know. jmo
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
So why keep ASKING him about the situation? Why not get "unpolite" and tell him to STOP? Say you are fixing my car for me, and I say, "You don't have to do that...but it is making this weird noise when I turn the wheel." Does that indicate that I want you to STOP IMMEDIATELY, or that you don't HAVE to do it, but since you ARE, here is what I need?
After the dispatcher tells GZ to stop following he only asks basic info about the caller. What's your name and address and where can the police find you so you can explain to them what the problem is.
JMO but I don't think it would be good form of a 911 dispatcher to just drop the call without getting the particulars when someone calls and says they're following a suspicious individual.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
No, I guess nobody explicitly said that all this happened at the same time but we have heard versions that say that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life, because he was losing consciousness and couldn't breathe because Trayvon's hand forced him to swallow the blood that came out of his nose. We have also heard that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life because his head was being bashed against the concrete and one more hit would have had him in diapers and fed by his brother. We have also heard that GZ had to shoot because he was in fear for his life because TM was trying to get his gun. It seems to me that all this is alleged to have happened at the moment it became crystal clear to him that he was going to die unless he shot TM.
BEM: I doubt GZ said this about his brother - I'm more inclined to believe these are his brother's words, embellished for dramatic effect. JMO
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:18 PM
At that point he was considered SYG untouchable. I'm sure he thought it was all over but agreed to the reenactment because he was free and clear. Not sure they will be able to use that in court if he was considered free to go. jmoI disagree, since GZ knew he could have stopped the questioning and obtained an attorney at any point. IMO his immediate and extended voluntary unrepresented cooperation with LE is one of the factors that has me waiting for more information, instead of assuming that GZ is lying about what happened the night TM died. JMO
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:19 PM
But what about the next day when she finds out that TM has been shot and killed? Wouldn't she then call someone to let them know what happened the last time she talked to TM? I mean, the last time she is talking to TM he tells her there is a man following him, she hears words exchanged and what she describes as a push and the phone goes dead. No answer when she calls back and the next day she learns of the death, but still doesn't contact his parents???
How do you know she didn't call Trayvon's parents? Either way, the poor child was probably in shock. I just lost my Cousin unexpectedly from a heart attack two weeks ago. I am still in a daze and he died from natural causes at 54. So I cannot even imagine how a 16 year old felt when she found out her bf was dead. Why are we analyzing her in the first place? This is about GZ shooting someone for no reason whatsoever.
pcrum12
05-03-2012, 08:19 PM
No, but the phrase, "I was on the phone with my boyfriend who stated to me that someone was following him and he was scared, then I heard a scuffle and the line went dead. He is not answering his phone now and I am worried..." THAT would have gotten a response.
:tyou:
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:20 PM
No, but the phrase, "I was on the phone with my boyfriend who stated to me that someone was following him and he was scared, then I heard a scuffle and the line went dead. He is not answering his phone now and I am worried..." THAT would have gotten a response.
Agreed ----> Especially the next day, after hearing that he was shot to death, apparently by the very same dude... ya know? If it is true that she heard what is alleged, I do find it very strange that she would not have at least told her parents about the conversation... who surely would have contacted Sanford police, wouldn't they? All JMO
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:20 PM
Nothing will EVER make it all better. But you CANNOT, as the Martins did, REJECT an offer to speak with GZ for an apology, then say he wouldn't GIVE an apology, then say the apology he DID give was self serving. You have to pick ONE side and stick with it.
Oh, it was too little way too late. It was not an apology. An apology would have been more on the lines of I'm sorry I shot your son....... GZ avoided any responsibility for the shooting just said he was sorry for their loss. They want him to tell them why he shot their son....they don't want to hear I'm sorry for your loss. Those are empty words from the shooter. jmo
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 08:20 PM
vlpate,
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:21 PM
Agreed ----> Especially the next day, after hearing that he was shot to death, apparently by the very same dude... ya know? If it is true that she heard what is alleged, I do find it very strange that she would not have at least told her parents about the conversation... who surely would have contacted Sanford police, wouldn't they? All JMO
I believe their position was they wanted to protect her. And we can see now why they took they stand. It was a wise move on their part. jmo
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:22 PM
See, THIS is where, imo, the supporters of TM lose all credibility. He is LAYING on the ground, with a 6'3' manchild covering his mouth and nose, and ALL he had to do was THINK (tough to do when you have, per GZ, been punched in the nose, and are being suffocated) about how to get away. When you are being starved for oxygen, your body AUTOMATICALLY reacts to get air inside.
I guess I am not getting your point because I don't see where it contradicts anything I said.
If he was starved for oxygen he wouldn't have reacted automatically by lifting his head against all the pressure TM exerted because that is an effort that requires MORE oxygen and TM wouldn't have been able to repeatedly bash his head to the ground at the same time he was using all that weight to push GZ down and suffocate him.
A simple sideways rolling of the head would have been a movement of less resistance and if his mouth and nose pointed to the side it would have been more difficult for TM to cover them completely since he would have had to use his weight horizontally.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:22 PM
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:
What are you insinuating?
katydid23
05-03-2012, 08:24 PM
Other posters here who are more familiar with police dispatch practices have said that there may be a script the dispatchers use or that they are told not to issue direct orders.
Well if they are told not to issue direct orders, then he was not given a direct order. So how could he not follow an order if he was not given one?
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:24 PM
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:[/QUOTE]
I think he means Tracy got his own gf to call them, not Tray's gf.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:24 PM
I truly don't understand what difference his age makes. It would have been ok to shoot him if he were a little older??? :banghead:I have not heard anyone stating that this is GZ's position. Nor is it mine, nor have I seen anyone stating so here, IMO. As has been noted, GZ was answering a question that the victim's grieving mother said she would ask him if she could meet him face to face. JMO
/bbm
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:25 PM
I disagree, since GZ knew he could have stopped the questioning and obtained an attorney at any point. IMO his immediate and extended voluntary unrepresented cooperation with LE is one of the factors that has me waiting for more information, instead of assuming that GZ is lying about what happened the night TM died. JMO
And I see his "cooperation" as being self-serving. He'd gotten 2 previous felony convictions reduced to misdeameanors, and daddy was a judge. No reason to believe they'd actually charge him, IMO!
jaded cat
05-03-2012, 08:27 PM
No, but the phrase, "I was on the phone with my boyfriend who stated to me that someone was following him and he was scared, then I heard a scuffle and the line went dead. He is not answering his phone now and I am worried..." THAT would have gotten a response.
Because the police dept. in Miami has nothing better to do than follow up on a vague phone call?
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:27 PM
I have not heard anyone stating that this is GZ's position. Nor is it mine, nor have I seen anyone stating so here, IMO. As has been noted, GZ was answering a question that the victim's grieving mother said she would ask him if she could meet him face to face. JMO
/bbm
Can you provide me the link that explains what Trayvon's mom's specific demands were in an apology?
I must have missed that
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
.
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing that they would not have given him any information and that is why BG called. I think it would have been Mr. Martin's hope that TM might have been picked up walking home instead of his worst fear, that he could be dead. Young black men get stopped all the time by LE. I don't think that is "bombshell breaking news" to anyone here. jmo
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Oh, it was too little way too late. It was not an apology. An apology would have been more on the lines of I'm sorry I shot your son....... GZ avoided any responsibility for the shooting just said he was sorry for their loss. They want him to tell them why he shot their son....they don't want to hear I'm sorry for your loss. Those are empty words from the shooter. jmo
Seeing as how NOTHING could be "enough", I am not sure what you expected him to say. He is NOT sorry he shot TM, because at the time, per GZ, he had no CHOICE. It was him or TM, and he chose him.
As for WHY he shot their son, do you REALLY think the reaction would have been better if he said, "I am sorry I shot you son while he was attacking me..."? And i KNOW that hasn't been proven, but that is HIS claim.
Velouria
05-03-2012, 08:29 PM
Nothing will EVER make it all better. But you CANNOT, as the Martins did, REJECT an offer to speak with GZ for an apology, then say he wouldn't GIVE an apology, then say the apology he DID give was self serving. You have to pick ONE side and stick with it.
Not hardly. The Martins are under NO obligation to accept ANY statements made by GZ. At no time during his court appearance did he say that he was sorry for his actions; he said he was "sorry for their loss". No acceptance of responsibility whatsoever. That wasn't an apology, that was a Hallmark sympathy card.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:30 PM
Do you have a link that states that as a fact? I thought as of yet, we don't know what happened.
Two eye witnesses, Crump, and Officer Smith, all stated George was wearing red.
One witness, Jon, said the person yelling, and on the bottom, was wearing red.
One witness, the teen walking his dog, said he only saw one person on the ground, and he was wearing red. He probably saw GZ on the ground after being punched by TM. This would hardly indicate, as some have suggested, that GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie to detain him, much less detaining him with a gun. Edited Matt Guttman interview
NO ONE has ever said the one on the bottom was wearing a gray hoodie.
IMO, that's a pretty good foundation to who was on the losing end of the altercation. JMO
.
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:32 PM
Crump was an eye witness?
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:32 PM
I have not heard anyone stating that this is GZ's position. Nor is it mine, nor have I seen anyone stating so here, IMO. As has been noted, GZ was answering a question that the victim's grieving mother said she would ask him if she could meet him face to face. JMO
/bbm
I heard him give his apology at the Bond Hearing. It was a sorry excuse for an apology and he mumbled about saying he didn't realize that Trayvon was so young and thought he was GZ's age. What the heck difference does it make how old the person was? He could have been 100 years old and it would still be murder.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:32 PM
Not hardly. The Martins are under NO obligation to accept ANY statements made by GZ. At no time during his court appearance did he say that he was sorry for his actions; he said he was "sorry for their loss". No acceptance of responsibility whatsoever. That wasn't an apology, that was a Hallmark sympathy card.
Bingo! He is taking no responsibility for his actions! That's exactly the sympathy card I sent to my mother when her child molester brother died- it said, "I'm sorry for your loss", nothing about the fact that I was actually glad he was dead!( Of course, I didn't kill him though, he died of natural means)
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:33 PM
I disagree, since GZ knew he could have stopped the questioning and obtained an attorney at any point. IMO his immediate and extended voluntary unrepresented cooperation with LE is one of the factors that has me waiting for more information, instead of assuming that GZ is lying about what happened the night TM died. JMO
So you think the charges of 2nd degree murder are just for show?????
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:34 PM
Seeing as how NOTHING could be "enough", I am not sure what you expected him to say. He is NOT sorry he shot TM, because at the time, per GZ, he had no CHOICE. It was him or TM, and he chose him.
As for WHY he shot their son, do you REALLY think the reaction would have been better if he said, "I am sorry I shot you son while he was attacking me..."? And i KNOW that hasn't been proven, but that is HIS claim.
BBM
The first thing you've said that i agree with
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 08:34 PM
Actually, that is self explainitory. GZ is trying to get up, thus exerting pressure upwards, TM is on top, covering his mouth and nose, pushing downward. TM has the added force of his body weight as well as gravity, which is more than enough to overcome GZ's neck muscles and force his head down.
While he's grabbing for the gun?
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:34 PM
Two eye witnesses, Crump, and Officer Smith, all stated George was wearing red.
One witness, Jon, said the person yelling, and on the bottom, was wearing red.
One witness, the teen walking his dog, said he only saw one person on the ground, and he was wearing red. He probably saw GZ on the ground after being punched by TM. This would hardly indicate, as some have suggested, that GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie to detain him, much less detaining him with a gun. Edited Matt Guttman interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related)
NO ONE has ever said the one on the bottom was wearing a gray hoodie.
IMO, that's a pretty good foundation to who was on the losing end of the altercation. JMO
.
Like the hoodie would stay on in an altercation? how could anyone see it in the dark? Now the witnesses have x-ray vision? Even if Trayvon was on top it still doesn't mean that GZ didn't commit murder. Who was carrying the gun?
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:36 PM
Not hardly. The Martins are under NO obligation to accept ANY statements made by GZ. At no time during his court appearance did he say that he was sorry for his actions; he said he was "sorry for their loss". No acceptance of responsibility whatsoever. That wasn't an apology, that was a Hallmark sympathy card.
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:37 PM
It was true he did not know how old TM was and that he did not know if TM was armed but the "i thought he was a little bit younger than I am" part was a lie unless he lied to the dispatcher when he said late teens.
IMO.
I don't think TM would have looked older when seen close up.
I think most people would be more likely to mistake the age of a tall guy seen from a distance as older.In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO
In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO
IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO
MaryAnn
05-03-2012, 08:38 PM
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
Your explanation would be ok if GZ was apologizing for not returning a Library Book, we are talking about a dead boy!!!!!
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:40 PM
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
I think people who don't want to accept an apology because it was too little too late are completely within their rights to say the apology should have come sooner.
A person could very easily be sorry that he had to shoot someone even if it was self defense.
I know I don't ever want to be in that position and I would be devastated.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that the furthest thing from her mind was that her boyfriend was shot dead by some gun toting vigalante looking to make sure "they don't get away again"
...And when she found out the next day that he had been shot dead that night, what did she do then? I don't think we know. But we didn't hear about her until Crump held a press conference to announce she'd been located through phone records, thanks to Tracy's inquiries, which was three weeks later I believe. JMO
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:43 PM
Like the hoodie would stay on in an altercation? how could anyone see it in the dark? Now the witnesses have x-ray vision? Even if Trayvon was on top it still doesn't mean that GZ didn't commit murder. Who was carrying the gun?
<modsnip>.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:45 PM
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
Now we hear he felt threatened while he was in the truck. But he got out and against LE directions, he followed. Does not appear he was that worried at the time. GZ should have listened. GZ should have used his better judgment. Obviously even though there was a threat, he felt one and admits it now he still ignored LE and followed TM.....why, why would he do that if he felt threatened. Because, he had a gun and he knew TM was just a teen and there was a good chance TM did not have a gun.
TM's ice tea was in the front pocket of his shirt. What if GZ tried to grab TM and saw the bulge and thought it was a gun and the fight started because GZ was afraid he was about to get shot? If only GZ had listened, TM would still be alive today. jmo
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 08:46 PM
Are you 16? If you're not I don't know how you can even slightly know what a teenager would do in that situation. I don't know if I at that age would have called 911. Now that I'm an old fa*t yes, but at that age probably not. I might mention it to a friend or parent, but doubt I would call 911.
I'm not 16 (I wish), but I can honestly say that when I was that age I would have been able to recognize when someone was in trouble and needed help.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:46 PM
I think people who don't want to accept an apology because it was too little too late are completely within their rights to say the apology should have come sooner.
A person could very easily be sorry that he had to shoot someone even if it was self defense.
I know I don't ever want to be in that position and I would be devastated.
But GZ TRIED to apologize sooner. They REJECTED the offer. You CANNOT reject an offer of an apology, then complain that the same offer DIDN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. You just can't do it.
i think the whole, "Sorry for your loss" was a very diplomatic compromise. He believed this kid was going to KILL him, how can we expect him to show SYMPATHY about STOPPING that?
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:46 PM
In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO
In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO
IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO
It doesn't matter imo, it's one of the safest discrepancies imo. It's not going to make or break the case. No one can get inside his head and prove what GZ thought so he can always claim that he thought ten different things in a rapid sequence and TM's age isn't significant legally here. It's not like there are situations in which it would have been OK to shoot a 24 year old but not a 17 year old if everything else is equal
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:46 PM
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:
I'm guessing that they would not have given him any information and that is why BG called. I think it would have been Mr. Martin's hope that TM might have been picked up walking home instead of his worst fear, that he could be dead. Young black men get stopped all the time by LE. I don't think that is "bombshell breaking news" to anyone here. jmo
Interesting about Brandy Greene working there, I didn't know that, but it makes sense why she would call for him.
I don't think his worst fear was that he was dead, at least he didn't seem to be concerned about his safety the night before when he went to bed. I interpret the first two phone calls as a natural assumption given TM's background for getting into trouble. JMO
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Thank you for the new website, tonight, I will be comparing it to the one I had. There seems to be some discrepancies between the 2 in how the apts are numbered.
:moo::moo:
IDK, you're using the Seminole Tax Collector's site and I'm using the Seminole Property Appraiser's site. Not sure why it doesn't come up at the Tax Collector's site, but got to this link:
http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/
Click on Address....then enter TWIN TREES in the search window.....click Execute Search.....when the list comes up, go down to the 10th property owner down from the top.....click on that parcel and the plat and owner's info comes up.
I learned a long time ago the value of an appraiser's site in any county in FL. Tons of info is available. You can go from plat view to aerial view with a click if you choose.
Hope this helps.
flourish
05-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Actually, being 16 would be MORE of a reason to call 911. You ever meet a 16 year old that didn't LIVE and LOVE to be in the middle or DRAMA?
I would suppose it would depend on one's personal definition of "drama." When I was a teenager, the drama I'd be interested in had more to do with what Jeffrey said to Michelle after the football game, and how Michelle told Susie that Lisa told Amanda that Iris told her that Jeffrey wants to kiss Michelle.
Real, actual, life and death drama isn't the kind of drama most teenagers are after, IMHO.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:47 PM
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
Do you realize how much this statement contradicts itself.. yet how TRUE it is? LMAO...
Don't you think Trayvon's parents KNEW (at that point) that George Zimmerman was NOT sorry for killing their son? How was an apology appropriate then at that point? it was NOT. It was a self serving statement by a man trying to save his own a$$!
If he was truly sorry, he would have apologized immediately! He was not and he IS not sorry! IMO
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 08:48 PM
Teenage drama... not parent and police drama.
Not murder of your boyfriend drama.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:49 PM
Crump was an eye witness?
:floorlaugh:
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 08:49 PM
Now we hear he felt threatened while he was in the truck. But he got out and against LE directions, he followed. Does not appear he was that worried at the time. GZ should have listened. GZ should have used his better judgment. Obviously even though there was a threat, he felt one and admits it now he still ignored LE and followed TM.....why, why would he do that if he felt threatened. Because, he had a gun and he knew TM was just a teen and there was a good chance TM did not have a gun.
TM's ice tea was in the front pocket of his shirt. What if GZ tried to grab TM and saw the bulge and thought it was a gun and the fight started because GZ was afraid he was about to get shot? If only GZ had listened, TM would still be alive today. jmo
The "danger" he felt TM presented at first was to his neighbors. He did not feel danger to himself until TM attacked him, per GZ.
The second part I find interesting, mainly because some on here have used the idea that TM SAW GZ's gun, and thus was justified in attacking GZ to "defend" himself. So using the SAME standard, if GZ thought the can of tea was a gun, shouldn't he have the SAME expectations that TM was armed and dangerous?
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:50 PM
In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO
In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO
IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO
I don't think GZ is very good recognizing what is a discrepancy and what isn't. His answers were defensive which is to be expected. But the truth is so much easier to remember. jmo
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:51 PM
IMO, if that's what the poster was saying, they would have said that.
Perhaps asking for clarification without presumption would be more effective.
My interpretation was that the girl was miles and miles away and may or may not have known the exact location of TM in order to TRY to give ANY helpful information. I don't know many teenagers who know which police departments cover which areas in their entire state.What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO
/bbm
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:52 PM
Now we hear he felt threatened while he was in the truck. But he got out and against LE directions, he followed. Does not appear he was that worried at the time. GZ should have listened. GZ should have used his better judgment. Obviously even though there was a threat, he felt one and admits it now he still ignored LE and followed TM.....why, why would he do that if he felt threatened. Because, he had a gun and he knew TM was just a teen and there was a good chance TM did not have a gun.
TM's ice tea was in the front pocket of his shirt. What if GZ tried to grab TM and saw the bulge and thought it was a gun and the fight started because GZ was afraid he was about to get shot? If only GZ had listened, TM would still be alive today. jmo
By the same token, why didn't TM run after knocking GZ to the ground? Why did he continue the altercation?
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 08:52 PM
In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO
In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO
IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO
But I thought trayvon was "circling his SUV" and being intimidating. When did THAT happen? Couldn't he have seen Trayvon then??
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department <--- LINK to support what I'm saying
highflyer
05-03-2012, 08:52 PM
But GZ TRIED to apologize sooner. They REJECTED the offer. You CANNOT reject an offer of an apology, then complain that the same offer DIDN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. You just can't do it.
i think the whole, "Sorry for your loss" was a very diplomatic compromise. He believed this kid was going to KILL him, how can we expect him to show SYMPATHY about STOPPING that?
It was insensitive, self serving and maddening. Nasty piece of work he is.
flourish
05-03-2012, 08:53 PM
I find the more likely conclusion is that she did not hear anything that alarmed her.
Maybe she did and maybe she didn't. My point was it's, imo, ridiculous to assume that if she was alarmed, she'd know exactly who to contact, how, what to say, and where to direct them. Folks have been implying that she did not "do enough" or that she wasn't "timely enough" or whatever.
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 08:53 PM
She didn't quite receive the subpoena - but a "source close to the situation" said one was being prepared. This article also states, probably the same "situation source", that the girl's parents called SPD, but they never interviewed her. And still, neither she, nor her mother, ever called the Martins.
"The 17-year-old was on the phone with his girlfriend as Zimmerman began to follow him, and because she is a minor, RadarOnline.com isn't disclosing her name. The Sanford Police Department never questioned Trayvon's girlfriend, even though her parents contacted the cops to tell them she wanted to come in for a sit down interview.
"Trayvon's girlfriend has been told that the Florida State Attorney's Office has prepared a subpoena for her to appear in front of the grand jury. She has hired a lawyer to advise her and make sure that her rights are protected. Her attorney has told prosecutors that she is ready to appear and is looking forward to telling the grand jury what really happened on February 26," a source close to the situation tells RadarOnline.com." (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/trayvon-martin-cellphone-girlfriend-subpoena-grand-jury-florida)
Is RadarOnline considered MSM? It's a tabloid, IMO.
They never have anything more substantial than 'a source close to the situation'.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 08:53 PM
I would hope they knew who she was, who TM's was dating. Surely.
Crump: (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html) "This was her really, really close personal friend. They were dating."Crump also used the words "puppy love" IIRC. JMO
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:55 PM
But GZ TRIED to apologize sooner. They REJECTED the offer. You CANNOT reject an offer of an apology, then complain that the same offer DIDN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. You just can't do it.
i think the whole, "Sorry for your loss" was a very diplomatic compromise. He believed this kid was going to KILL him, how can we expect him to show SYMPATHY about STOPPING that?
It's not true logically. If there is some date that would be "soon enough", there are dates after that which are "too late". If you attempt to apologize on a date that is "too late" I don't see any reason why one couldn't say it wasn't "soon enough".
GZ said he didn't try to contact the parents because he was told not to.
A person may not be sorry that he isn't dead but he may still be sorry that he had to shoot.
JMO but I think the whole apology thing wasn't really diplomatic and heartfelt as much as it was a strategic defense move.
One can't expect the victim's family to be overly excited to receive a strategic defense move to soften the shooter's image.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 08:55 PM
The "danger" he felt TM presented at first was to his neighbors. He did not feel danger to himself until TM attacked him, per GZ.
The second part I find interesting, mainly because some on here have used the idea that TM SAW GZ's gun, and thus was justified in attacking GZ to "defend" himself. So using the SAME standard, if GZ thought the can of tea was a gun, shouldn't he have the SAME expectations that TM was armed and dangerous?
Which is the very reason LE directed him not to follow. It's not safe ever when you do not know what is going on with the other person. He called LE his duty was to wait. He decided his judgment was better than a dispatcher and we all see where that got him. If GZ approached TM thinking he had a gun, GZ would have already had his gun out. Imagine one person on top of another one with a gun, one with a metal can of ice tea, both hidden. What do you think GZ thought? Someone has to start it. It started when GZ called 911. It should have ended with GZ staying in his car and no one would have died. jmo
LinasK
05-03-2012, 08:57 PM
What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO
/bbm
Yes, by the same token, George had weeks before he lawyered up with Mark O'Mara to sincerely apologize. Since he only apologized once MO'M started trying to rehab his image, I feel it was insincere...
It was insensitive, self serving and maddening. Nasty piece of work he is.
Phoenixfla
05-03-2012, 08:58 PM
She said she tried to call him back. Her parents may have been out for the evening. He was suppose to be in a safe environment, a gated community. I doubt he told her his exact location other than he was in Sanford. I'm sure she was concerned but never expected he was dead. Obviously she ended up in the hospital when she heard she had talked with him right before he died. It's really not fair to speculate about what a 15/16 year old should have done when we are adults putting our expectations on her. Kids do not always think about dying, or someone dying and in particular someone their age dying. It's not the first thing they think will happened to someone. jmo
Are you positive about that? I'm pretty convinced she never went to the hospital.
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:58 PM
The "danger" he felt TM presented at first was to his neighbors. He did not feel danger to himself until TM attacked him, per GZ.
The second part I find interesting, mainly because some on here have used the idea that TM SAW GZ's gun, and thus was justified in attacking GZ to "defend" himself. So using the SAME standard, if GZ thought the can of tea was a gun, shouldn't he have the SAME expectations that TM was armed and dangerous?
Why didn't he feel danger to himself if TM was circling his car and checking him out and if he felt he had to roll up his window to avoid a confrontation? Isn't that threatening behavior?
Just because he knew that he could shoot TM?
vlpate
05-03-2012, 08:59 PM
Crump was an eye witness?
"Two eye witnesses, Crump, and Officer Smith, all
Not sure how you are seeing Crump as an eye witness from reading the above?
Two Eyewitnesses
Crump
Officer Smith
Four people stated GZ/man on the bottom, was wearing red.
flourish
05-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Nothing will EVER make it all better. But you CANNOT, as the Martins did, REJECT an offer to speak with GZ for an apology, then say he wouldn't GIVE an apology, then say the apology he DID give was self serving. You have to pick ONE side and stick with it.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "apology." My preschool students think that *smack* followed by an immediate "sorry"= an appropriate apology end of story. Some people do the more twisted "apology"-- "I'm sorry you misunderstood me" or "I'm sorry you feel that way," or "I'm sorry your child is dead," but don't take any responsibility for the actions necessitating the apology.
In any case, can you provide the actual quotes from the Martins that state the things you imply above, so that we can all see them in context and such? Thanks so much:)
highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Is George Zimmerman's wife pregnant?
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:02 PM
Are you positive about that? I'm pretty convinced she never went to the hospital.
I think we would have heard that was a lie by now, don't you??? jmo
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 09:02 PM
What was wrong with it, was that it was a disingenous apology forced by his lawyer, much like Casey Anthony's phony apology in court to her friend that she stole from! Too little, too late!
Respectfully, I don't believe for one minute that GZ was forced to apologize. This case is in no way comparable to the Casey Anthony case, and MOM is in no way comparable to JB.
I think under the curcumstances, that "better late than never" fits much better.
:moo::moo::moo:
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:02 PM
Why didn't he feel danger to himself if TM was circling his car and checking him out and if he felt he had to roll up his window to avoid a confrontation? Isn't that threatening behavior?
Just because he knew that he could shoot TM?
Because TM ran away. I do not usually perceive those running AWAY from me as a threat to me.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:04 PM
"Two eye witnesses, Crump, and Officer Smith, all
Not sure how you are seeing Crump as an eye witness from reading the above?
Two Eyewitnesses
Crump
Officer Smith
Four people stated GZ/man on the bottom, was wearing red.
Was Crump an eyewitness? How would he know if he was not there???? jmo
LinasK
05-03-2012, 09:05 PM
Respectfully, I don't believe for one minute that GZ was forced to apologize. This case is in no way comparable to the Casey Anthony case, and MOM is in no way comparable to JB.
I think under the curcumstances, that "better late than never" fits much better.
:moo::moo::moo:
Mark O'Mara may be a better and higher class attorney than Jose Baez, but I actually see many parallels between George Zimmerman and Casey Anthony's sense of entitlements, parents bailing them out, and never taking personal responsibility for their problems, and they are both liars!
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 09:06 PM
"Two eye witnesses, Crump, and Officer Smith, all
Not sure how you are seeing Crump as an eye witness from reading the above?
Two Eyewitnesses
Crump
Officer Smith
Four people stated GZ/man on the bottom, was wearing red.
I thought the two eyewitnesses were named Crump and Officer Smith.
Four people sounds more authoritative than two people but if only two of the four are eyewitnesses it only counts as two people imo because they are the only ones with first hand information. Others are just repeating what they've heard from the witnesses so adding Crump and Smith to the mix doesn't add any weight.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:06 PM
Because TM ran away. I do not usually perceive those running AWAY from me as a threat to me.
That was GZ's story that TM was running. jmo
vlpate
05-03-2012, 09:07 PM
She said she tried to call him back. Her parents may have been out for the evening. He was suppose to be in a safe environment, a gated community. I doubt he told her his exact location other than he was in Sanford. I'm sure she was concerned but never expected he was dead. Obviously she ended up in the hospital when she heard she had talked with him right before he died. It's really not fair to speculate about what a 15/16 year old should have done when we are adults putting our expectations on her. Kids do not always think about dying, or someone dying and in particular someone their age dying. It's not the first thing they think will happened to someone. jmo
As far as I'm concerned, it's not about the g/f - i don't think she wanted anything to do with this in the first place. The fact of the matter is, she never called TM's parents, why? Three weeks, no call.
Was she listening to something she didn't want to have any part of? I can't imagine anyone hearing what she says she heard, not telling someone - five year olds call 911.
I have no bad feelings about the girl at all, I think, IMO, she is caught up in something and probably wishes it were over already.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 09:07 PM
But I thought trayvon was "circling his SUV" and being intimidating. When did THAT happen? Couldn't he have seen Trayvon then??
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department <--- LINK to support what I'm sayingIs your question directed to me personally? (Guessing it is, since you quoted my post; sorry if I'm misunderstanding that.)
If so, my answer: Personally I don't believe that TM "was circling his SUV." HTH
Donjeta
05-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Because TM ran away. I do not usually perceive those running AWAY from me as a threat to me.
But it seems to me that GZ did because in the 911 call, after he says that TM ran, he is asked for his address and he sounds reluctant to say it because he doesn't know where TM is.
Why would it be a problem unless he perceived TM as a threat?
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:10 PM
So you think the charges of 2nd degree murder are just for show?????
Some people have alluded to the fact that the prosecutor has her own political reasons for upping the charges, as a way to make up for the public anger against her in the minority community, for some of her past transgressions. Just sayin...
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:10 PM
Mark O'Mara may be a better and higher class attorney than Jose Baez, but I actually see many parallels between George Zimmerman and Casey Anthony's sense of entitlements, parents bailing them out, and never taking personal responsibility for their problems, and they are both liars!
Not really sure how you can compare Anthony's Dad helping her hide a BODY right after the crime, with a plea deal 7 YEARS ago, that may or may not have been helped by his parents.
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 09:11 PM
I think we would have heard that was a lie by now, don't you??? jmoYour post (#302 in this thread) said "obviously" she went to the hospital when she learned she had talked to him just before he was killed. Respectfully, we have not heard whether that is true or not. JMO
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 09:12 PM
If Trayvon had been your Son would GZ's apology make everything all better?
Of course as a loving mother, I would be sick at heart for a very long time if I lost my son this way. A sincere apology would help closure begin though. Now, if Sybrina is half the person she comes across as, then she knows that holding hatred in your heart will not allow healing. I don't believe she will choose to harbor hatred because that will affect everything she does for the rest of her life.
:moo::moo::moo:
Velouria
05-03-2012, 09:14 PM
You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.
As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.
It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.
BBM
What some of us or any of us accept is of no consequence - it's what the MARTINS choose to accept that matters. And they declined to accept GZ's so-called apology that was really not an apology at all, and furthermore, directly contradicted his words to the 911 operator. I can't blame them a bit for wanting no part of it.
highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:16 PM
I think some people have shown it is questionable. But we are not allowed to link the proof here yet.
No, I haven't seen that it is questionable.
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 09:16 PM
Interesting about Brandy Greene working there, I didn't know that, but it makes sense why she would call for him.
I don't think his worst fear was that he was dead, at least he didn't seem to be concerned about his safety the night before when he went to bed. I interpret the first two phone calls as a natural assumption given TM's background for getting into trouble. JMO
Parents always worry about their children's safety. And the worst fear a parent can have is fearing their child is dead.
Velouria
05-03-2012, 09:17 PM
Some people have alluded to the fact that the prosecutor has her own political reasons for upping the charges, as a way to make up for the public anger against her in the minority community, for some of her past transgressions. Just sayin...
Okay, I'll bite. What people are those? :waitasec:
flourish
05-03-2012, 09:17 PM
What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO
/bbm
I don't know for sure that any or all of the the bolded occurred or did not occur--until we're privy to more details on the timing, who contacted who when, who did or did not respond to contact attempts, etc., I'm choosing to give a compassionate benefit of any doubt I might have to the gf. I feel there are enough "bad guys" in this case that she needn't be made into one.
And no, I'm not implying that anyone here has some little list of "good guys" and "bad guys" along with a related secret agenda, I'm just explaining part of why I'm willing to let any discrepancies or oddities, perceived or real, in her story slide for the time being. Hope that makes sense.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 09:19 PM
I thought the two eyewitnesses were named Crump and Officer Smith.
Four people sounds more authoritative than two people but if only two of the four are eyewitnesses it only counts as two people imo because they are the only ones with first hand information. Others are just repeating what they've heard from the witnesses so adding Crump and Smith to the mix doesn't add any weight.
I'll agree with you about adding Crump to the equation, to any equation, doesn't add any weight, but Smith was also there.
So there were two eyewitness who saw the guy in red being accosted, one eyewitness who noted on his police report, IIRC, GZ had on red, which confirms GZ had to have been the one being accosted.
So if they interviewed the teen and Jon that night, the self-defense would not have been hard to believe. IMO
Crump probably repeating what he heard.
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:20 PM
No, I haven't seen that it is questionable.
I have. JMO
highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:20 PM
Of course as a loving mother, I would be sick at heart for a very long time if I lost my son this way. A sincere apology would help closure begin though. Now, if Sybrina is half the person she comes across as, then she knows that holding hatred in your heart will not allow healing. I don't believe she will choose to harbor hatred because that will affect everything she does for the rest of her life.
:moo::moo::moo:
It was not a sincere apology it was a repulsive display of selfishness.
LinasK
05-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Not really sure how you can compare Anthony's Dad helping her hide a BODY right after the crime, with a plea deal 7 YEARS ago, that may or may not have been helped by his parents.
It was only alleged, never proved that George Anthony helped hide the body.
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Are you positive about that? I'm pretty convinced she never went to the hospital.
You've stated that a couple of times. What do you base that opinion on?
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Respectfully, I don't believe for one minute that GZ was forced to apologize. This case is in no way comparable to the Casey Anthony case, and MOM is in no way comparable to JB.
I think under the curcumstances, that "better late than never" fits much better.
:moo::moo::moo:
He wasn't forced...
He was eager to because he was scared as he!! that he was going to prison until the trial! He did it willingly and to save his own a$$
Moo Moo M...
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:24 PM
I'll agree with you about adding Crump to the equation, to any equation, doesn't add any weight, but Smith was also there.
So there were two eyewitness who saw the guy in red being accosted, one eyewitness who noted on his police report, IIRC, GZ had on red, which confirms GZ had to have been the one being accosted.
So if they interviewed the teen and Jon that night, the self-defense would not have been hard to believe. IMO
Crump probably repeating what he heard.
Only two witnesses saw them on the ground. TM was already lying face down when Officer Smith arrived. He's not an eyewitness. We all saw the video at headquarters so we know what GZ was wearing, including Crump. jmo
songline
05-03-2012, 09:24 PM
What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO
/bbm
with this line of thinking - We think alike. :)
I am not counting on her story at all, it could have been helped along.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:26 PM
He wasn't forced...
He was eager to because he was scared as he!! that he was going to prison until the trial! He did it willingly and to save his own a$$
Moo Moo M...
Not counting the...."Okay, I apologed.... now call off your big ole "kittens". jmo
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:28 PM
Okay, I'll bite. What people are those? :waitasec:
It has been talked about quite a bit. She is running for re-election, and some say she might be running for a higher political office next time.
Do you remember the hot mic before her first presser, where the reporters said it was politically motivated? There has been lots of talk about the anger against her previously, for the case she brought against the 12 yr old Hispanic boy, where she tried him as an adult. That case is still going on. She received a lot of public backlash for some of the cold hearted things she said. I posted some of the links and was criticized for being OT here.
But also she has been a very aggressive prosecutor, and a Republican, so she was very unpopular with the minority community, who accused her of being prejudiced. So no wonder she got rid of the Grand Jury and made this decision herself.
One of her critics is an female attorney from Jacksonville with the last named Johnson. She is on Larry Elders radio show quite often and I will try and find her name.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:28 PM
with this line of thinking - We think alike. :)
I am not counting on her story at all, it could have been helped along.
If she was hospitalized as reported for hysteria, her doctor's report will reflect what happened. If she is telling the truth IMO it will be consistent. jmo
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:29 PM
He wasn't forced...
He was eager to because he was scared as he!! that he was going to prison until the trial! He did it willingly and to save his own a$$
Moo Moo M...
Could you explain that? Has there been cases in the past where a REALLY sincere apology helped the accused get BAIL?
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:30 PM
It has been talked about quite a bit. She is running for re-election, and some say she might be running for a higher political office next time.
Do you remember the hot mic before her first presser, where the reporters said it was politically motivated? There has been lots of talk about the anger against her previously, for the case she brought against the 12 yr old Hispanic boy, where she tried him as an adult. That case is still going on. She received a lot of public backlash for some of the cold hearted things she said. I posted some of the links and was criticized for being OT here.
But also she has been a very aggressive prosecutor, and a Republican, so she was very unpopular with the minority community, who accused her of being prejudiced. So no wonder she got rid of the Grand Jury and made this decision herself.
One of her critics is an female attorney from Jacksonville with the last named Johnson. She is on Larry Elders radio show quite often and I will try and find her name.
This was assigned to her, wasn't it?
vlpate
05-03-2012, 09:30 PM
I don't know for sure that any or all of the the bolded occurred or did not occur--until we're privy to more details on the timing, who contacted who
Crump told the world in his press conference who contacted whom. Tracy Martin contacted the girl after finding she had been the last to talk to TM while looking at his phone bill on 3/18. I've cited the press conference dozens of times here.
when, who did or did not respond to contact attempts, etc., I'm choosing to give a compassionate benefit of any doubt I might have to the gf. I feel there are enough "bad guys" in this case that she needn't be made into one.
No one is making her into a bad guy, she was contacted by Crump and Tracy, not the other way around. In my opinion, they needed her phone call to go exactly the way it did in order for the SYG law to not apply. Only if TM were the aggressor, would it apply. Without her phone call, it's GZ's alone.
And no, I'm not implying that anyone here has some little list of "good guys" and "bad guys" along with a related secret agenda, I'm just explaining part of why I'm willing to let any discrepancies or oddities, perceived or real, in her story slide for the time being. Hope that makes sense.
Fair enough :)
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Because TM ran away. I do not usually perceive those running AWAY from me as a threat to me.
OMG! and again!! You are SO right!!! One does NOT usually perceive someone running away from them as a threat!!!!
Keep posting zen! You are making the case against GZ stronger!!
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:33 PM
This was assigned to her, wasn't it?
According to An attorney I heard on the radio, it was HANDED TO HER, so it would help her political aspirations. I am trying to find a link to it but it was on Larry Elder radio KABC by an attorney from Jacksonville Fla, last name Johnson.
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 09:34 PM
I'll agree with you about adding Crump to the equation, to any equation, doesn't add any weight, but Smith was also there.
So there were two eyewitness who saw the guy in red being accosted, one eyewitness who noted on his police report, IIRC, GZ had on red, which confirms GZ had to have been the one being accosted.
So if they interviewed the teen and Jon that night, the self-defense would not have been hard to believe. IMO
Crump probably repeating what he heard.
Didn't Smith respond to a couple of Zimmerman's calls to the police when he was making all those calls. The same Smith that Frank Taafe told one of the many television hosts that George wanted him to share that he never knew or had met Smith before?
i.b.nora
05-03-2012, 09:34 PM
vlpate,
Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??
:moo::moo:
Another question, which will explain my comments above, why did Tracy Martin call the Juvenile Justice dept., and the Sheriff's Dept. to see if they'd picked TM up, before calling the non-emergency number? Link (http://www.thecharlottepost.com/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=News&refno=4505)
"“I had [his girlfriend] call juvenile justice, just to check and see if anyone by the name of Trayvon Martin had been picked up. No Trayvon Martin,” the father told NNPA. “My next call was to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department to see if any kid had been picked up.
“My third call was to a non-emergency number at the Seminole County Sheriff’s
Department and I informed them that I was filing a missing person’s report."
Hard to know what quote is what, but he didn't get Trayvon's girlfriend to call, he had his own girlfriend call.
flourish
05-03-2012, 09:35 PM
Crump told the world in his press conference who contacted whom. Tracy Martin contacted the girl after finding she had been the last to talk to TM while looking at his phone bill on 3/18. I've cited the press conference dozens of times here.
No one is making her into a bad guy, she was contacted by Crump and Tracy, not the other way around. In my opinion, they needed her phone call to go exactly the way it did in order for the SYG law to not apply. Only if TM were the aggressor, would it apply. Without her phone call, it's GZ's alone.
Fair enough :)
I suppose I could have been more clear--I'm waiting for information from a courtroom or court document. More definitive, whole-picture, admissible evidence.
Thank you, though.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:39 PM
Could you explain that? Has there been cases in the past where a REALLY sincere apology helped the accused get BAIL?
He never said he was sorry he shot there son. So he offered condolances, not an apology. There is a difference. Most people offde their condolances but they never had anything to do with the death of that person. Even a doctor will say I'm sorry I could not save him (their concern is genune because a doctor feels he should have been able to save a patient)......never I'm sorry for you loss. GZ's removing himself from any type of responsibility for TM's death regardless of why he felt he had to kill him. GZ doesn't get it but the Martins sure do. jmo
pcrum12
05-03-2012, 09:39 PM
Because she knew his exact location, right?
she could have told 911 he's in Sanford! They would have connected her to Sanford 911. GZ had of course already or may have even still been on the line with them If she had called, SPD had ALREADY been alerted -- maybe put 2 and 2 together? JMO
vlpate
05-03-2012, 09:40 PM
Only two witnesses saw them on the ground. TM was already lying face down when Officer Smith arrived. He's not an eyewitness. We all saw the video at headquarters so we know what GZ was wearing, including Crump. jmo
Here is what I wrote - "one eyewitness who noted on his police report, IIRC, GZ had on red"
What I meant, Smith was an eyewitness to the fact that GZ was wearing red and documented it. Of course Smith was not an eyewitness to the altercation.
By the time it gets this far, the point is lost. The point was that GZ was obviously the one being accosted because he was the one two eyewitnesses saw, the one with RED on, on the bottom.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:40 PM
OMG! and again!! You are SO right!!! One does NOT usually perceive someone running away from them as a threat!!!!
Keep posting zen! You are making the case against GZ stronger!!
<modsnip> I do not perceive someone running away as a threat TO ME. They can still be a threat to someone ELSE, to personal property, or any number of things. While my Mom might disagree, I am not the end all be all of everything in the world.
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:40 PM
Have her tweets been in the MSM? NO? Then why is it even being discussed here? Leave her alone, otherwise please supply a link to a MSM article that talks about her tweets!
So people are saying it is a FACT that Crump was telling the truth that she went to the hospital the day after the wake. Why do we have to accept that AS FACT if there is possible evidence that Crump made that story up?
This is not about the girl, it is about Crump and his false story.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:44 PM
she could have told 911 he's in Sanford! They would have connected her to Sanford 911. GZ had of course already or may have even still been on the line with them If she had called, SPD had ALREADY been alerted -- maybe put 2 and 2 together? JMO
We do not know if she didn't try to call. We do not know and the reason we do not know is because of what some are trying to do right here....discredit her. At least her parents have enough foresight to see what would be happening down the road and tried to keep her out of it. Until March 18th I do not think she realized how involved she was and that TM was dead within a minute of her disconnected phone call. jmo
francie
05-03-2012, 09:44 PM
Orlando Sentinel
5/3/2012 6:41pm
The SOURCE said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
------------------
How very interesting that we were discussing George's many statements & whether or not they differed from each other earlier today and then this article comes out tonight that says his police statements didn't change in his accounting of the killing!! From a "source"!! :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:
Baez had people infiltrating blogs to figure out how to defend his murder client so no doubt O’Mara is too jmo (article below). I wonder if Amy Singer is working for O'Mara? Think I'll be keeping certain ideas to myself from now on, just sayin'.
"When bloggers and others in social media sites started to attack George Anthony about his alleged mistress, the defense team beefed up their questions against him," said Fort Lauderdale-based consultant Amy Singer. "None of the bloggers ever changed their minds about him."
The innovative pro-bono tactic by Singer shows how social media sites like Facebook and Twitter could revolutionize the way lawyers defend their clients, especially in highly-publicized cases like the Casey Anthony murder trial."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-07-13/business/os-casey-anthony-social-media-strateg20110713_1_media-sites-casey-anthony-cindy-anthony
:moo:
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 09:45 PM
Could you explain that? Has there been cases in the past where a REALLY sincere apology helped the accused get BAIL?
I really didn't feel like typing a LONG post But.. :sigh:
He did it to play on the sympathy of the courts indefinitely...
He also tainted the jury pool because people such as yourself think "Aww.. he is really sorry for what he did and what a nice thing he did for the family" (of the child he murdered!!)
That is another reason why the apology should have never been said )or allowed) at the bond hearing. Also the judge thought he was going to address the COURT and NOT the Martins.. I don't know why THAT little trick wasn't penalized as well!!
At that point he didn't know if he was going to get bail or not but if he DID he wanted to make sure the public "thought" he was sorry for killing Trayvon so he wouldn't be attacked walking down the street and perhaps.. wait.. perhaps they'll even donate money to my defense fund!!!!
WHY do people say they're sorry before a sentencing hearing?? Because they THINK it will lessen their sentence!
I'm too tired to research other "sympathetic" judges who gave a murderer such a small bond because he was "sorry" (cough, cough) but i will and I'll get back to you.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:45 PM
He never said he was sorry he shot there son. So he offered condolances, not an apology. There is a difference. Most people offde their condolances but they never had anything to do with the death of that person. Even a doctor will say I'm sorry I could not save him (their concern is genune because a doctor feels he should have been able to save a patient)......never I'm sorry for you loss. GZ's removing himself from any type of responsibility for TM's death regardless of why he felt he had to kill him. GZ doesn't get it but the Martins sure do. jmo
Nope, nice dodge. YOU stated that GZ apologized to "save his @$$" because he thought he was going to spend the time until trial in jail. I asked if you had heard of a case where the defendants bail was based on a REALLY sincere apology, because that is what you are claiming, that he apologized to get bail so he wouldn't spend the time in jail awaiting trial.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:46 PM
So people are saying it is a FACT that Crump was telling the truth that she went to the hospital the day after the wake. Why do we have to accept that AS FACT if there is possible evidence that Crump made that story up?
This is not about the girl, it is about Crump and his false story.
Because you can't sleuth it without getting the girl involved. Let MSM dig it up. I'm sure they are eager to do so. jmo
highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:46 PM
I have noticed, perhaps you have as well, that MY posts are only useful to you when they are taken out of context. I do not perceive someone running away as a threat TO ME. They can still be a threat to someone ELSE, to personal property, or any number of things. While my Mom might disagree, I am not the end all be all of everything in the world.
Whom else might TM of been a threat to?
stilettos
05-03-2012, 09:48 PM
Nope, nice dodge. YOU stated that GZ apologized to "save his @$$" because he thought he was going to spend the time until trial in jail. I asked if you had heard of a case where the defendants bail was based on a REALLY sincere apology, because that is what you are claiming, that he apologized to get bail so he wouldn't spend the time in jail awaiting trial.
He apologized in a bid for leniency in both situations, bail and trial. There are instances all over the web of defense attorney discussions of said fact.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:49 PM
Nope, nice dodge. YOU stated that GZ apologized to "save his @$$" because he thought he was going to spend the time until trial in jail. I asked if you had heard of a case where the defendants bail was based on a REALLY sincere apology, because that is what you are claiming, that he apologized to get bail so he wouldn't spend the time in jail awaiting trial.
I never said that....... You have me mixed up with someone else. Never said that. All I'm saying is it was not an apology, it was condolences and that Mrs. Martin knows the difference. jmo
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 09:49 PM
So people are saying it is a FACT that Crump was telling the truth that she went to the hospital the day after the wake. Why do we have to accept that AS FACT if there is possible evidence that Crump made that story up?
This is not about the girl, it is about Crump and his false story.
Why in the world would he make up a lie that he knows could be so easily proven by providing hospital records?
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 09:50 PM
Yes, by the same token, George had weeks before he lawyered up with Mark O'Mara to sincerely apologize. Since he only apologized once MO'M started trying to rehab his image, I feel it was insincere...As you probably are aware, GZ was asked about this at the bond hearing by Prosecutor BD. IIRC when asked why he had not apologized to the parents before, he responded that he had been instructed not to communicate with them. Based on your statement, I was unsure whether you were aware of GZ's reply, so HTH. I apologize if I am misunderstanding you; I realize it's possible you did hear GZ explain in court why he had not apologized before, but are perhaps not believing his explanation. JMO
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:50 PM
I really didn't feel like typing a LONG post But.. :sigh:
He did it to play on the sympathy of the courts indefinitely...
He also tainted the jury pool because people such as yourself think "Aww.. he is really sorry for what he did and what a nice thing he did for the family" (of the child he murdered!!)
That is another reason why the apology should have never been said )or allowed) at the bond hearing. Also the judge thought he was going to address the COURT and NOT the Martins.. I don't know why THAT little trick wasn't penalized as well!!
At that point he didn't know if he was going to get bail or not but if he DID he wanted to make sure the public "thought" he was sorry for killing Trayvon so he wouldn't be attacked walking down the street and perhaps.. wait.. perhaps they'll even donate money to my defense fund!!!!
WHY do people say they're sorry before a sentencing hearing?? Because they THINK it will lessen their sentence!
I'm too tired to research other "sympathetic" judges who gave a murderer such a small bond because he was "sorry" (cough, cough) but i will and I'll get back to you.
Lets address this a little at a time (and for some reason, my PC won't allow multi quoting). Okay, you have stated that he tainted the jury pool. But how did he do that with as you have said, an INSINCERE apology? As far as PENALIZING him, is there a law againt offering condolences on the stand? And as far as being ATTACKED while walking down the street, the guy is in HIDING, he is living out of state because the NBP has placed a bounty on his head.
I will await your offering.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:51 PM
I never said that....... You have me mixed up with someone else. Never said that. All I'm saying is it was not an apology, it was condolences and that Mrs. Martin knows the difference. jmo
My bad, it was deelyteful (sp?), I am sorry.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:52 PM
My bad, it was deelyteful (sp?), I am sorry.
Now that's an apology and not condolences. lol I accept.
katydid23
05-03-2012, 09:54 PM
Why in the world would he make up a lie that he knows could be so easily proven by providing hospital records?
Good question. I am curious to see the records and figure it out.
highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:55 PM
Lets address this a little at a time (and for some reason, my PC won't allow multi quoting). Okay, you have stated that he tainted the jury pool. But how did he do that with as you have said, an INSINCERE apology? As far as PENALIZING him, is there a law againt offering condolences on the stand? And as far as being ATTACKED while walking down the street, the guy is in HIDING, he is living out of state because the NBP has placed a bounty on his head.
I will await your offering.
Any and all sympathy I had for him was lost in that repugnant display at the bond hearing.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 09:56 PM
Why in the world would he make up a lie that he knows could be so easily proven by providing hospital records?
Why would Crump lie? Why would he wait until 2 days after he received the 911 calls to "discover" her phone call on Trayvon's records? Seems convenient, IMO. With those 911 calls, he can match it all up perfectly. JMO
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 09:56 PM
I don't know for sure that any or all of the the bolded occurred or did not occur--until we're privy to more details on the timing, who contacted who when, who did or did not respond to contact attempts, etc., I'm choosing to give a compassionate benefit of any doubt I might have to the gf. I feel there are enough "bad guys" in this case that she needn't be made into one.
And no, I'm not implying that anyone here has some little list of "good guys" and "bad guys" along with a related secret agenda, I'm just explaining part of why I'm willing to let any discrepancies or oddities, perceived or real, in her story slide for the time being. Hope that makes sense.Fair enough!
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 09:57 PM
she could have told 911 he's in Sanford! They would have connected her to Sanford 911. GZ had of course already or may have even still been on the line with them If she had called, SPD had ALREADY been alerted -- maybe put 2 and 2 together? JMO
Come ON! Firstly.. what teen knows the exact location of their boyfriends father's home? (Sanford is a big place!)
Secondly, What teenager is gonna call 911? My son is too scared to tell me he got in trouble in school!
Thirdly.. NOTHING she could have done would have gotten LE there to STOP GZ from murdering TM
Fourthly. Fifthly and one millionth.. she is a 15-16 year old kid and I don't think we should really be questioning her actions.
What if she reads here and starts to think "OMG I could have saved my boyfriend from getting KILLED!!!" Which is absolute nonsense.
Wait.. one million and one What TEEN thinks the "scuffle" and "trouble" is death by a grown man with a gun???
Just K
05-03-2012, 09:57 PM
My Desktop fried...now I am hours and infinite pages behind.
mikeysmommom
05-03-2012, 09:59 PM
Why in the world would he make up a lie that he knows could be so easily proven by providing hospital records?
Well she is a minor and with Hippa laws he figures it will not come out but there are other ways and I am sure MSM will figure it out.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 10:00 PM
I have noticed, perhaps you have as well, that MY posts are only useful to you when they are taken out of context. I do not perceive someone running away as a threat TO ME. They can still be a threat to someone ELSE, to personal property, or any number of things. While my Mom might disagree, I am not the end all be all of everything in the world.
Sorry.. I take your "posts" as I personally interpret them.
Like MOST people will do...
I try to add links and facts to my posts so people don't have an opportunity to misinterpret them
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Whom else might TM of been a threat to?
A home he might have been breaking into, a person he might have been robbing, there are any number of things he could have been a threat to. Heck, he WAS a threat to a guy following him while waiting for the police to arraive, completely within the law.
Boytwnmom
05-03-2012, 10:04 PM
or try to and he chose his only public "appearance" to make a fake apology to mislead the public and potential jurors as well as to publicly insult the victims family. It was deceitful as he is NOT the least bit sorry as demonstrated by his web site which showed how enamored he was of the defaced black cultural center at Ohio State:
And Thursday morning, the words “Long Live Zimmerman” were found spray-painted on the side of Ohio State University’s black cultural center.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/05/george-zimmerman-supporter_n_1406071.html
Touting something like that is much more indicative of who someone is and what they really feel than some self serving statement in a courtroom. He called shooting and killing Trayvon a "life altering event" for HIMSELF with not a word about Trayvon. His bogus apology is surpassed only by his lawyers web site begging for money from the fringe elements who are applauding the killing of Trayvon.
Nope, nice dodge. YOU stated that GZ apologized to "save his @$$" because he thought he was going to spend the time until trial in jail. I asked if you had heard of a case where the defendants bail was based on a REALLY sincere apology, because that is what you are claiming, that he apologized to get bail so he wouldn't spend the time in jail awaiting trial.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Good question. I am curious to see the records and figure it out.
We will never see them. She's a minor. MOM might see them but they will never be released to the public because it has nothing to do with GZ shooting TM. jmo
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:05 PM
Sorry.. I take your "posts" as I personally interpret them.
Like MOST people will do...
I try to add links and facts to my posts so people don't have an opportunity to misinterpret them
I would be interested to see what kind of link I could add to the sentence, "A person running away is not a threat to me." to further clarify that the sentence had the words TO ME at the end of it. Any suggestions?
LambChop
05-03-2012, 10:07 PM
A home he might have been breaking into, a person he might have been robbing, there are any number of things he could have been a threat to. Heck, he WAS a threat to a guy following him while waiting for the police to arraive, completely within the law.
That would be true of anyone. So you are saying we should be stopping everyone on the street and demand that they strip to make sure they are not carrying a screw driver?????? That makes no sense. jmo
highflyer
05-03-2012, 10:07 PM
A home he might have been breaking into, a person he might have been robbing, there are any number of things he could have been a threat to. Heck, he WAS a threat to a guy following him while waiting for the police to arraive, completely within the law.
If it was completely within the law he wouldn't be charged with murder.
flourish
05-03-2012, 10:07 PM
Come ON! Firstly.. what teen knows the exact location of their boyfriends father's home? (Sanford is a big place!)
Secondly, What teenager is gonna call 911? My son is too scared to tell me he got in trouble in school!
Thirdly.. NOTHING she could have done would have gotten LE there to STOP GZ from murdering TM
Fourthly. Fifthly and one millionth.. she is a 15-16 year old kid and I don't think we should really be questioning her actions.
What if she reads here and starts to think "OMG I could have saved my boyfriend from getting KILLED!!!" Which is absolute nonsense.
Wait.. one million and one What TEEN thinks the "scuffle" and "trouble" is death by a grown man with a gun???
Plus, wasn't it actually her boyfriend's father's fiance's home?
:what:
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:08 PM
or try to and he chose his only public "appearance" to make a fake apology to mislead the public and potential jurors as well as to publicly insult the victims family. It was deceitful as he is NOT the least bit sorry as demonstrated by his web site which showed how enamored he was of the defaced black cultural center at Ohio State:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/05/george-zimmerman-supporter_n_1406071.html
Touting something like that is much more indicative of who someone is and what they really feel than some self serving statement in a courtroom. He called shooting and killing Trayvon a "life altering event" for HIMSELF with not a word about Trayvon. His bogus apology is surpassed only by his lawyers web site begging for money from the fringe elements who are applauding the killing of Trayvon.
I have not seen ANYONE applauding the killing of TM. Many of us are DEFENDING the persecution of who we see an an innocent individual, and even MORE of us are defending the persecution of a man before all of the evidence is known.
Sherbie
05-03-2012, 10:08 PM
My Desktop fried...now I am hours and infinite pages behind.
Here's what you missed:
A: The sky is blue.
B: Not when it's storming. Then it's gray.
C: Sometimes the sun shines when it's storming.
D: Yeah but sometimes the sky's white when it snows.
E: Sometimes it's red. Or black.
F: There's always blue, even if you can't see it.
F: I had this sky once, and it was purple.
G: We aren't supposed to talk about purple.
H: We can talk purple as long as we don't talk violet.
I: LINK, PLEASE?!
:pillowfight2:
There you go...all caught up. We really need a document dump!
mikeysmommom
05-03-2012, 10:09 PM
We will never see them. She's a minor. MOM might see them but they will never be released to the public because it has nothing to do with GZ shooting TM. jmo
If she was not in a hospital IMO Someone will find out and it will end up in the media.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:10 PM
If it was completely within the law he wouldn't be charged with murder.
Sorry, he is charged with murder until it can be proven that he acted in self defense, it is indeed can be proven. What I stated was that he was FOLLOWING TM, which was COMPLETELY within the law. It is NOT illegal to FOLLOW someone.
And, BTW, people are charged with stuff all the time, that does NOT make them GUILTY, thus until that ARE proven guilty, they are considered within the confines of the law.
LambChop
05-03-2012, 10:10 PM
I would be interested to see what kind of link I could add to the sentence, "A person running away is not a threat to me." to further clarify that the sentence had the words TO ME at the end of it. Any suggestions?
I think someone may be looking for more viable evidence than GZ's statement. He's not looking too credible. jmo
flourish
05-03-2012, 10:11 PM
Here's what you missed:
A: The sky is blue.
B: Not when it's storming. Then it's gray.
C: Sometimes the sun shines when it's storming.
D: Yeah but sometimes the sky's white when it snows.
E: Sometimes it's red. Or black.
F: There's always blue, even if you can't see it.
F: I had this sky once, and it was purple.
G: We aren't supposed to talk about purple.
H: We can talk purple as long as we don't talk violet.
I: LINK, PLEASE?!
:pillowfight2:
There you go...all caught up. We really need a document dump!
LOL, you rock!
:rollercoaster:
Boytwnmom
05-03-2012, 10:13 PM
because they're like, a little BETTER at deciding who is a real threat as opposed to a delusional threat cooked up in some gun totting vigilantes mind. Trayvon exhibited none, zero, actual suspicious behavior. But George calls 911 anyway-fine, then let them do their job. But no, he was sick of those a$%holes getting away. So, he decided to apprehend and detain Trayvon.
The intent to detain someone is not lawful but that's what he intended to do. No other reason to follow and CONFRONT him as shown by the gf's phone call when he pops up again after Trayvon thinks he is safe from the nutcase scoping him out. If someone IS a danger the last thing the police want you to do is go anywhere near them. Most people, when they call the police, actually do what the police tell them-don't follow the guy means wait in your car the REAL police are coming. He choose not to do that and he is thus responsible for everything that ensued, even if one thinks his following was legal (which I don't as it was clearly done with the intent to apprehend and detain) it was also stupid and jeopardized everyone within the reach of his gun, depraved indifference to anyone but himself.
<modsnip> I do not perceive someone running away as a threat TO ME. They can still be a threat to someone ELSE, to personal property, or any number of things. While my Mom might disagree, I am not the end all be all of everything in the world.
stilettos
05-03-2012, 10:14 PM
That would be true of anyone. So you are saying we should be stopping everyone on the street and demand that they strip to make sure they are not carrying a screw driver?????? That makes no sense. jmo
Good point. It sounds like the poster is of the opinion that we should start shooting people because they "look like" they might be a threat to someone somewhere. Because of how they LOOK. OMG. Words fail.
Just K
05-03-2012, 10:14 PM
I was beginning to get that impression. I can't do the whole semantic dance. Just like my damnable computer, I am fried with all the bickering. Hope that is alright to say...
Right now, none of knows piddly @#$%
We can only go on our gut for now and the little that has come out. My gut tells me that GZ is guilty of more than just following Trayvon.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Lets address this a little at a time (and for some reason, my PC won't allow multi quoting). Okay, you have stated that he tainted the jury pool. But how did he do that with as you have said, an INSINCERE apology? As far as PENALIZING him, is there a law againt offering condolences on the stand? And as far as being ATTACKED while walking down the street, the guy is in HIDING, he is living out of state because the NBP has placed a bounty on his head.
I will await your offering.
There are many many people that do NOT follow these cases closely. When they see someone like GZ "apologize" yet they do NOT know the intimacies of the case, they will be sympathetic.. "hence" tainting the jury pool
Secondly.. it was a BOND hearing. the courts KNEW he was going to apologize but NOT directly to the Martin family.
There are plenty of YouTubes of the bond hearing in case anyone finds the desire to "research" this fact
It's an international case. No matter where he is "cowering" people will recognize him and if an apology prevents 1 out of 10 people from wanting to get their OWN vigilante justice, well O'Mara was willing to take those odds.
IMO, JMO, MOO <--- I do this when I don't have MSM links handy at the moment to back what are MY opinions.
the bond hearing CAN be researched though...
vlpate
05-03-2012, 10:16 PM
He apologized in a bid for leniency in both situations, bail and trial. There are instances all over the web of defense attorney discussions of said fact.
Do they cite any cases where this has happened before?
katydid23
05-03-2012, 10:17 PM
We will never see them. She's a minor. MOM might see them but they will never be released to the public because it has nothing to do with GZ shooting TM. jmo
Well, then I guess he had no worries about making something up if he needed to embellish his story a bit. And since there are visible records which seem to conflict with his hospital story, people should not treat it here as if it is FACT. imo
suzihawk
05-03-2012, 10:20 PM
Well she is a minor and with Hippa laws he figures it will not come out but there are other ways and I am sure MSM will figure it out.
I'm assuming Crump wants this to go to trial. The records would come out at trial, Hippa or no Hippa. So you think he would make up this whole huge lie that would most assuredly be exposed at trial - that would kill the case he wants to be a success for his client??
That was so convoluted, it was difficult to type it out.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:24 PM
Good point. It sounds like the poster is of the opinion that we should start shooting people because they "look like" they might be a threat to someone somewhere. Because of how they LOOK. OMG. Words fail.
Well, if we think someone is suspicious, and we call the police, and in the process of following them (again, COMPLETELY legal) they attack us, yes, we SHOULD be able to shoot them.
Just K
05-03-2012, 10:25 PM
because they're like, a little BETTER at deciding who is a real threat as opposed to a delusional threat cooked up in some gun totting vigilantes mind. Trayvon exhibited none, zero, actual suspicious behavior. But George calls 911 anyway-fine, then let them do their job. But no, he was sick of those a$%holes getting away. So, he decided to apprehend and detain Trayvon.
The intent to detain someone is not lawful but that's what he intended to do. No other reason to follow and CONFRONT him as shown by the gf's phone call when he pops up again after Trayvon thinks he is safe from the nutcase scoping him out. If someone IS a danger the last thing the police want you to do is go anywhere near them. Most people, when they call the police, actually do what the police tell them-don't follow the guy means wait in your car the REAL police are coming. He choose not to do that and he is thus responsible for everything that ensued, even if one thinks his following was legal (which I don't as it was clearly done with the intent to apprehend and detain) it was also stupid and jeopardized everyone within the reach of his gun, depraved indifference to anyone but himself.
From what I have seen, that has been and still was GZ's MO through the moment he killed an unarmed teenager. My bet, he will never learn to respect the wishes of others. IMO, he thinks he is "KING," judge, jury and executioner. In his mind, his wishes always come first.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:25 PM
because they're like, a little BETTER at deciding who is a real threat as opposed to a delusional threat cooked up in some gun totting vigilantes mind. Trayvon exhibited none, zero, actual suspicious behavior. But George calls 911 anyway-fine, then let them do their job. But no, he was sick of those a$%holes getting away. So, he decided to apprehend and detain Trayvon.
The intent to detain someone is not lawful but that's what he intended to do. No other reason to follow and CONFRONT him as shown by the gf's phone call when he pops up again after Trayvon thinks he is safe from the nutcase scoping him out. If someone IS a danger the last thing the police want you to do is go anywhere near them. Most people, when they call the police, actually do what the police tell them-don't follow the guy means wait in your car the REAL police are coming. He choose not to do that and he is thus responsible for everything that ensued, even if one thinks his following was legal (which I don't as it was clearly done with the intent to apprehend and detain) it was also stupid and jeopardized everyone within the reach of his gun, depraved indifference to anyone but himself.
Wow, you have a link to some evidence that GZ DETAINED TM? That would change my opinion of the situation COMPLETELY. Could you provide it?
highflyer
05-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Well, then I guess he had no worries about making something up if he needed to embellish his story a bit. And since there are visible records which seem to conflict with his hospital story, people should not treat it here as if it is FACT. imo
We each have our own opinions. Have no reason to disbelieve Crump.
raeann
05-03-2012, 10:26 PM
I'm assuming Crump wants this to go to trial. The records would come out at trial, Hippa or no Hippa. So you think he would make up this whole huge lie that would most assuredly be exposed at trial - that would kill the case he wants to be a success for his client??
That was so convoluted, it was difficult to type it out.
ITA....and the privacy rules do not apply if the patient/guardian signs a simple release form....quick, easy and records can be used as needed.....
But then again, it means NOTHING for this case. The phone records will confirm her story, there will be forensic evidence from the autopsy, gsr tests, angle of entry for the shot, the conflicting accounts....and OMG....there will be witnesses that have chosen to stay out of the MEDIA but who will be willing to testify!
jmo
Desdemona
05-03-2012, 10:26 PM
OMG! and again!! You are SO right!!! One does NOT usually perceive someone running away from them as a threat!!!!
Keep posting zen! You are making the case against GZ stronger!!
I'm curious whether this is in response to donjeta's OP topic, or only zenreader's reply to it?
IMO the topic of whether GZ had reason to fear TM while still inside his SUV on the phone with dispatch, is not in the same ballpark as what allegedly happened when GZ next encountered TM, resulting in a loud fight, many 911 calls, a fatal gunshot, and GZ claiming self-defense.
IOW, GZ has surely not told LE that he fired his weapon in imminent fear for his life/safety because TM ran away. JMO
:( OTOH, I bet GZ now wishes he had simply sat in that SUV and waited for LE to arrive, so he could have told them how another one had gotten away. JMO
wishuwerehere
05-03-2012, 10:26 PM
Sorry, he is charged with murder until it can be proven that he acted in self defense, it is indeed can be proven. What I stated was that he was FOLLOWING TM, which was COMPLETELY within the law. It is NOT illegal to FOLLOW someone.
And, BTW, people are charged with stuff all the time, that does NOT make them GUILTY, thus until that ARE proven guilty, they are considered within the confines of the law.
The State of Florida, which represents the People of the State of Florida, has accused and now has subsequently charged Zimmerman with second degree murder. The people do not take this lightly since an innocent 17 year old boy is dead. The State of Florida will now set out to prove Zimmerman guilty. Afterall, if Zimmerman is in fact guilty, he should pay for his crime, no? Just as much as if the State cannot prove his guilt he should go free.
May justice prevail.
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 10:27 PM
Here's what you missed:
A: The sky is blue.
B: Not when it's storming. Then it's gray.
C: Sometimes the sun shines when it's storming.
D: Yeah but sometimes the sky's white when it snows.
E: Sometimes it's red. Or black.
F: There's always blue, even if you can't see it.
F: I had this sky once, and it was purple.
G: We aren't supposed to talk about purple.
H: We can talk purple as long as we don't talk violet.
I: LINK, PLEASE?!
:pillowfight2:
There you go...all caught up. We really need a document dump!
:floorlaugh:
:tyou:
I really needed this right now!
That was great
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:29 PM
Firstly.. I am NOT going to address YOU. That's not what we do here at WS.. i will address your POST.
There are many many people that do NOT follow these cases closely. When they see someone like GZ "apologize" yet they do NOT know the intimacies of the case, they will be sympathetic.. "hence" tainting the jury pool
Secondly.. it was a BOND hearing. the courts KNEW he was going to apologize but NOT directly to the Martin family.
There are plenty of YouTubes of the bond hearing in case anyone finds the desire to "research" this fact
It's an international case. No matter where he is "cowering" people will recognize him and if an apology prevents 1 out of 10 people from wanting to get their OWN vigilante justice, well O'Mara was willing to take those odds.
IMO, JMO, MOO <--- I do this when I don't have MSM links handy at the moment to back what are MY opinions.
the bond hearing CAN be researched though...
I was also addressing YOUR post, sorry if I was not clearer. I think we have gone as far with this banter as one can go. Good day.
Boytwnmom
05-03-2012, 10:31 PM
there are many, many people all over the interwebs congratulating George on shooting that thug, wanna be thug, etc. Someone on here just yesterday commented "it makes me sad he didn't shoot faster" and about how he should have been arrested as a criminal and then he wouldn't have been in a position to be shot and that maybe George did see him doing something another time and thus he really was one of those a$%holes that get away as he had the "beginnings of a career criminal". Yet, the only one with a criminal record and one for violence at that, is George Zimmerman, neighborhood hero to some.
And this is one of the few times on this web site where I see people trashing the victim, his family and his gf or friend, whatever she was and extolling the killer. That's everyone's choice-victim or killer-I just generally choose victim especially when it's a young boy gunned down for no reason by someone who was completely wrong about everything he thought about Trayvon and who failed to follow the instructions of police and who shot a person begging for his life despite having no life threatening injuries himself.
I will never get it, what people see in this guy that's at all worthy of respect. He has a history of violence and violent crime and brags about getting off and yet he's assumed to be some innocent victim of a young person who had no idea he even existed, who was walking home, who has no history of violence and who most certainly did not attack George Zimmerman. Yet, for some reason people, especially certain people, are all too willing to believe Trayvon was some violent criminal who just snapped while walking home and suddenly decided to, for the first time, attack someone and try to KILL him even though the guy has no apparent injuries on video 20 minutes later and whose shirt isn't even wrinkled. It's just absurd.
I have not seen ANYONE applauding the killing of TM. Many of us are DEFENDING the persecution of who we see an an innocent individual, and even MORE of us are defending the persecution of a man before all of the evidence is known.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:31 PM
The State of Florida, which represents the People of the State of Florida, has accused and now has subsequently charged Zimmerman with second degree murder. The people do not take this lightly since an innocent 17 year old boy is dead. The State of Florida will now set out to prove Zimmerman guilty. Afterall, if Zimmerman is in fact guilty, he should pay for his crime, no? Just as much as if the State cannot prove his guilt he should go free.
May justice prevail.
IF he is guilty, I agree, he should be punished. But what we currently KNOW as FACT does not point to that.
Just K
05-03-2012, 10:32 PM
Well, if we think someone is suspicious, and we call the police, and in the process of following them (again, COMPLETELY legal) they attack us, yes, we SHOULD be able to shoot them.
What ever happened to the good old fashioned fist fight where the playing field is level? Getting hit, if ol' GZ even did, does not warrant shooting an unarmed kid and with hollow point bullets! When GZ shot that gun, he knew it would kill Trayvon. IMO and all that.
stilettos
05-03-2012, 10:33 PM
Do they cite any cases where this has happened before?
Good Lord. Most people (IMO) have seen internet and MSM discussions by defense attnys where they discuss having a defendant apologize in a bid for leniency. When I have time tomorrow I will go get some links. Unless people decide to go and look themselves. I need to go soak my head, all the "discussion" has given me an achy head.
JBean
05-03-2012, 10:35 PM
Hang on a second please.
If you have written a post that is more about members than it is about the case-when I open the thread please take a moment to reflect and edit.
Think about it. if the topic of your post is members here as opposed to the case-it is not ok.
ETA: heck if you were rude edit that too please. Thanks in advance.
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:41 PM
there are many, many people all over the interwebs congratulating George on shooting that thug, wanna be thug, etc. Someone on here just yesterday commented "it makes me sad he didn't shoot faster" and about how he should have been arrested as a criminal and then he wouldn't have been in a position to be shot and that maybe George did see him doing something another time and thus he really was one of those a$%holes that get away as he had the "beginnings of a career criminal". Yet, the only one with a criminal record and one for violence at that, is George Zimmerman, neighborhood hero to some.
And this is one of the few times on this web site where I see people trashing the victim, his family and his gf or friend, whatever she was and extolling the killer. That's everyone's choice-victim or killer-I just generally choose victim especially when it's a young boy gunned down for no reason by someone who was completely wrong about everything he thought about Trayvon and who failed to follow the instructions of police and who shot a person begging for his life despite having no life threatening injuries himself.
I will never get it, what people see in this guy that's at all worthy of respect. He has a history of violence and violent crime and brags about getting off and yet he's assumed to be some innocent victim of a young person who had no idea he even existed, who was walking home, who has no history of violence and who most certainly did not attack George Zimmerman. Yet, for some reason people, especially certain people, are all too willing to believe Trayvon was some violent criminal who just snapped while walking home and suddenly decided to, for the first time, attack someone and try to KILL him even though the guy has no apparent injuries on video 20 minutes later and whose shirt isn't even wrinkled. It's just absurd.
The inaccuracies in this post are great in number. There is no evidence WHO was begging for help, there is no evidence who attack who first, and there IS evidence of injuries to GZ.
Karmady
05-03-2012, 10:42 PM
Well this is interesting to me. She's in, so I see this case becoming a major non-issue.
Plea to man or less, guaranteed. Which, imo, has been the plan all along. Only question remaining for me is whether O'Mara will recommend a plea or take it to an SYG prelim.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/20/2759374/fla-prosecutor-in-martin-case.html#storylink=cpy
wishuwerehere
05-03-2012, 10:44 PM
IF he is guilty, I agree, he should be punished. But what we currently KNOW as FACT does not point to that.
I will speak for me, and me only. The facts of this case, the little I have been privy to, shows me that Zimmerman is guilty. IMO that is one of the many reasons which makes this case so interesting. The same set of facts are laid before us, and we see it totally differently.
jmo
zenreaper
05-03-2012, 10:44 PM
What ever happened to the good old fashioned fist fight where the playing field is level? Getting hit, if ol' GZ even did, does not warrant shooting an unarmed kid and with hollow point bullets! When GZ shot that gun, he knew it would kill Trayvon. IMO and all that.
I have asked this on other boards, and even on here, lets see if you can answer it. At what point IS it okay to make the decision that the person attacking you is going for a "kill" instead of a "maim"? And if you answer, also consider that the "line" has to be clear enough that an individual can make that determination while being beat upon.
Karmady
05-03-2012, 10:46 PM
I have asked this on other boards, and even on here, lets see if you can answer it. At what point IS it okay to make the decision that the person attacking you is going for a "kill" instead of a "maim"? And if you answer, also consider that the "line" has to be clear enough that an individual can make that determination while being beat upon.
Actually, SYG applies even if the perp is "only" going for a maim.
stilettos
05-03-2012, 10:51 PM
I have asked this on other boards, and even on here, lets see if you can answer it. At what point IS it okay to make the decision that the person attacking you is going for a "kill" instead of a "maim"? And if you answer, also consider that the "line" has to be clear enough that an individual can make that determination while being beat upon.
It appears to me, that GZ made a determination that he was going to kill someone when he loaded his gun with killer bullets, took the gun with him that night, took it when he got out of the truck and used it to kill TM. It does NOT appear to me that he was waiting to be attacked...he was on the offensive, IMO.
Emeralgem
05-03-2012, 10:52 PM
The inaccuracies in this post are great in number. There is no evidence WHO was begging for help, there is no evidence who attack who first, and there IS evidence of injuries to GZ.
My :twocents: I saw the video of GZ arriving at the SPD within 30 minutes after he shot Trayvon Martin dead and I did not detect any injuries to his person...JMHO
Emeralgem
05-03-2012, 10:54 PM
It appears to me, that GZ made a determination that he was going to kill someone when he loaded his gun with killer bullets, took the gun with him that night, took it when he got out of the truck and used it to kill TM. It does NOT appear to me that he was waiting to be attacked...he was on the offensive, IMO.''
IMHO..I'm inclined to believe everything you have just stated is the TRUTH and under those circumstances IMHO he should have been charged with... FIRST DEGREE MURDER...JMHO
Aedrys
05-03-2012, 10:57 PM
I have asked this on other boards, and even on here, lets see if you can answer it. At what point IS it okay to make the decision that the person attacking you is going for a "kill" instead of a "maim"? And if you answer, also consider that the "line" has to be clear enough that an individual can make that determination while being beat upon.
I don't know that that distinction can be made. I mean, in a fight, it's not like a video game where you can pause the action, think about what's going to happen next, and then decide what to do next. Plus, he had a gun. There was no WAY Trayvon had a chance of killing GZ. Gun beats fists anytime. And GZ was a former bouncer, so he knows how to fight. I'm not buying that a former bouncer let some kid beat on him and then GZ got so scared he had to shoot and kill the kid. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Boytwnmom
05-03-2012, 11:02 PM
but...two different experts concluded it was NOT GZ and it WAS TM screaming for his life. He was also identified by his father and mother. So, yes, there IS evidence which you are free to ignore or disparage.
There is much evidence of who caused the encounter-the person following who did not wish another a$%hole to get away and who took his weapon to follow a teenager walking home despite already knowing the police were on the way to stop this scary guy from... getting home I guess. GZ has a history of violence and some may say, paranoia, as exhibited by the numerous 911 calls. TM had no idea GZ even existed-he was walking home talking to his girlfriend, thought some guy was following him and then said he had lost him so it seems he had stopped to continue the conversation prior to returning home. It is then that GZ pops up AGAIN and, IMO attempts to prevent Trayvon from leaving so he can present this dangerous criminal to police when they arrive and be a big hero. So, since he still assumed TM is a criminal when TM resists he goes for his gun. When TM sees the gun he freaks out-that's likely when GZ slipped and fell and scratched his head or something. Then GZ straddles him, IMO, frisking him to find his robbery loot and weapon, but alas, there isn't any evidence of crime and so then the spin begins. New story needed ASAP. Then it was Trayvon jumped him, bashed his head, tried to suffocate him...gee, all this for some guy TM had never seen before and despite TM having no history of fighting or violence or insanity.
GZ's injuries were, in the words of a fellow poster, less then what she gets from shaving her legs. He appeared unbloodied, unscathed and not even wrinkled or with his shirt out of his pants less then 25 minutes later. Not buying the injury story.
Smoke and mirrors is all I see. What I know if that if GZ were legitimately just concerned about who TM was all he had to do was roll down his window and ask while he was on the phone with the dispatcher. Why wouldn't he do that? He's the adult, the neighborhood watchman. Trayvon is a teenager-ask him a question fgs. No, he'd rather follow him with a gun because that really makes the neighborhood so much safer.
The inaccuracies in this post are great in number. There is no evidence WHO was begging for help, there is no evidence who attack who first, and there IS evidence of injuries to GZ.
vlpate
05-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Well this is interesting to me. She's in, so I see this case becoming a major non-issue.
Plea to man or less, guaranteed. Which, imo, has been the plan all along. Only question remaining for me is whether O'Mara will recommend a plea or take it to an SYG prelim.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/20/2759374/fla-prosecutor-in-martin-case.html#storylink=cpy
No one stepped up to challenge her, wow.
My selfish side wants to see a trial, I want it all to come out. I don't know how I feel about a plea bargain.
Karmady
05-03-2012, 11:04 PM
I don't know that that distinction can be made. I mean, in a fight, it's not like a video game where you can pause the action, think about what's going to happen next, and then decide what to do next. Plus, he had a gun. There was no WAY Trayvon had a chance of killing GZ. Gun beats fists anytime. And GZ was a former bouncer, so he knows how to fight. I'm not buying that a former bouncer let some kid beat on him and then GZ got so scared he had to shoot and kill the kid. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
bbm~
It makes absolute sense to me that George didn't want to shoot Trayvon until he had no choice. There is uncontroverted evidence of a physical altercation that lasted WAY longer than it would have if a person with a gun was jonesing to kill someone. There is eyewitness testimony that the dude in red, George, was on the bottom calling for help. And it is undisputed that the gunshot didn't happen before they were on the ground or even after a few seconds of a physical skirmish. Imo, it's entirely consistent with the evidence so far that George did NOT want to shoot this kid and let it go as far as he reasonably could before using deadly force. I'm open to being proven wrong about that, but, imo, it's far from a foregone conclusion.
Just K
05-03-2012, 11:06 PM
I have asked this on other boards, and even on here, lets see if you can answer it. At what point IS it okay to make the decision that the person attacking you is going for a "kill" instead of a "maim"? And if you answer, also consider that the "line" has to be clear enough that an individual can make that determination while being beat upon.
George was a hefty adult male, he worked out and he was once a bouncer...so one would think he might have found a better way to resolve any physical altercation. He outweighed Trayvon, at that time, by at least 30 lbs. From the way GZ makes it sound Trayvon was friggin Superman...
This argument does not hold water with this Southern born citizen. If there even was an elbow or a fist thrown, it sounds like GZ should have fought back but not with a gun and hollow point bullets...that is just ovekill, IMO and all that.
Just K
05-03-2012, 11:08 PM
Actually, SYG applies even if the perp is "only" going for a maim.
Well maybe it shouldn't.
mommakk51
05-03-2012, 11:08 PM
I have not seen ANYONE applauding the killing of TM. Many of us are DEFENDING the persecution of who we see an an innocent individual, and even MORE of us are defending the persecution of a man before all of the evidence is known.
:yourock:
deelytful1
05-03-2012, 11:10 PM
I will speak for me, and me only. The facts of this case, the little I have been privy to, shows me that Zimmerman is guilty. IMO that is one of the many reasons which makes this case so interesting. The same set of facts are laid before us, and we see it totally differently.
jmo
This is a great post.
You're absolutely right...
Orlando Sentinel
5/3/2012 6:41pm
The SOURCE said Zimmerman's account of events hasn't changed in his several statements to police — in which he said he was so unnerved by the teen's behavior that he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. However, he never mentioned any of that while talking to the dispatcher.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
------------------
How very interesting that we were discussing George's many statements & whether or not they differed from each other earlier today and then this article comes out tonight that says his police statements didn't change in his accounting of the killing!! From a "source"!! :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:
Baez had people infiltrating blogs to figure out how to defend his murder client so no doubt O’Mara is too jmo (article below). I wonder if Amy Singer is working for O'Mara? Think I'll be keeping certain ideas to myself from now on, just sayin'.
"When bloggers and others in social media sites started to attack George Anthony about his alleged mistress, the defense team beefed up their questions against him," said Fort Lauderdale-based consultant Amy Singer. "None of the bloggers ever changed their minds about him."
The innovative pro-bono tactic by Singer shows how social media sites like Facebook and Twitter could revolutionize the way lawyers defend their clients, especially in highly-publicized cases like the Casey Anthony murder trial."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-07-13/business/os-casey-anthony-social-media-strateg20110713_1_media-si:moo:tes-casey-anthony-cindy-anthony (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-07-13/business/os-casey-anthony-social-media-strateg20110713_1_media-sites-casey-anthony-cindy-anthony)
:moo:
I always said we should learn to use reverse psychology. We'd really throw them for a roll.:floorlaugh: :moo: :Banane35:
stilettos
05-03-2012, 11:11 PM
I have not seen ANYONE applauding the killing of TM. Many of us are DEFENDING the persecution of who we see an an innocent individual, and even MORE of us are defending the persecution of a man before all of the evidence is known.
IMO, there is nothing remotely innocent about GZ or his actions. The only persecuted individual is the one profiled for how he LOOKED and then killed.
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