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JBean
05-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Seems to be a hotly debated issue. What do we and don't we know?

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Here's what I know:
"John" stated on camera that Mr. Zimmerman ("the guy in red") was "yelling" for help. He said he ran upstairs to call 911, before he could get upstairs and look out the window Mr. Martin was dead. He does not state that he heard more yells while running upstairs.

All hearsay, but he probably will be testifying as a witness.

Good topic by the way, thanks!

suzihawk
05-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Here's what I know:
"John" stated on camera that Mr. Zimmerman ("the guy in red") was "yelling" for help. He said he ran upstairs to call 911, before he could get upstairs and look out the window Mr. Martin was dead. He does not state that he heard more yells while running upstairs.

All hearsay, but he probably will be testifying as a witness.

Good topic by the way, thanks!

Do you have the link to that handy? I'd like to read the entire article. TIA

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Do you have the link to that handy? I'd like to read the entire article. TIA

I posted it on another thread, I'll find it and edit this reply.

You can see the video here, and from what he's saying you can come to the conclusion that Zimmerman is the one heard yelling because he says that the shot was fired before he was able to get upstairs. That, at least to me, says that the gunshot was a very short time after Zimmerman was yelling for help as per this man's story.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...od-altercation
Again, I do not necessarily agree with the above site, I am just linking it for the witness's words only.

RANCH
05-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Here's a link to the 911 calls with the cries for help in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-a58plIcrdo#!

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 01:11 PM
Robert Zimmerman Jr on the subject:

MORGAN: The chilling 911 call from the night of the shooting. Back now, Robert Zimmerman Jr., George Zimmerman's brother.

Robert, when we talked last time, you said that you had absolutely no doubt, and your father also said this, that the cries for help we heard on one of the other audio tapes definitely came from George. Since I spoke to you last, independent analysis has proved almost conclusively -- not 100 percent, I accept -- but almost conclusively, based on studying your brother's voice, that it could not have been George crying for help.

How do you react to that?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, you know, first and foremost, the most important reaction is to understand that independent analysis like that is not admissible. I don't know. And like I said I can't comment about the investigation or specifics in the investigation as they stand now, because there has been an arrest.

However, to say I know there have been a lot of sophisticated tools, as anyone would imagine, when the FBI is involved in an investigation to -- I mean the FBI is good at what they do -- to determine exactly whose voice. And unequivocally and without any doubt, that is my brother. He is on the floor.

His mouth is being held shut by his assailant, who is causing him to lose consciousness. And he is using his remaining breaths to scream and call out for help.

MORGAN: Again, you talk in a very dramatic way about remaining breaths, as if your brother is literally on the verge of dying. But so many people are Tweeting me saying, keep pushing on this, because if his brother was being beaten to within literally a moment before he dies, how can he be walking around so soon afterwards, with apparently barely a scratch on him.

I'm looking at him now. He's walking freely. There's no apparent sign of any serious injury.

ZIMMERMAN: OK. The injury that happened to George are injuries that affected his breathing. They're not injuries that are going to show up on a videotape. Breaking your nose and swallowing copious amounts of blood -- like I said in the first interview, we're confident all of his medical records, when they come to light, as they come to light in the court of law, will exonerate him.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/11/pmt.01.html
Videos here:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-grills-george-zimmermans-brother-on-defense-of-murder-charge/

JMO but if TM had suffocated GZ to the extent that he was losing consciousness and was swallowing copious amounts of blood that he was unable to spit out, GZ wasn't yelling at the time.

This description sounds like just a little bit pregnant. You can't both be on the verge losing consciousness because you can't breathe due to having your airways blocked AND scream in a blood curdling manner.

chefmom
05-06-2012, 01:20 PM
Before I try to touch on this topic. . . . . Does anyone have a 10-foot pole I can borrow?

LiveLaughLuv
05-06-2012, 01:21 PM
Trayvon Martin Shooting: Voice Experts Claim Cries Heard On 911 Call Were Not George Zimmerman's
Posted: 03/31/2012 11:20 pm Updated: 04/ 2/2012 8:43 am

Before George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin on February 26, a 911 call recorded the voice of someone screaming. Whether that person was Martin or Zimmerman -- who police say claimed he was attacked by Martin before the fatal incident -- has been an open question since the calls were released by the Sanford, Florida police department. (WARNING: Above audio is disturbing.)

The Orlando Sentinel consulted two voice experts to try to settle the debate, and both came to the same conclusion: The cries could not have come from George Zimmerman.

One expert, Tom Owen, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman as the source. From the Sentinel:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html

Malapoo
05-06-2012, 01:22 PM
The 911 call was the first thing I heard/knew about the case, and my reaction upon hearing the cries were that they were those of a young person (teens or younger) and not those of a 28 year old. In fairness, I have not to this day heard GZ's speaking voice at all, but would expect him to have a more youthful pitch if those were indeed his cries regardless of breathing, blood etc. Somewhat like comparing Michael Jackson's adult voice to those of any of his brothers. Michael had a higher pitched voice I would tend to think of a youth in puberty ranges as opposed to a mature adult voice.

Hearing Trayvon's brother's voice also makes me think the screams could indeed be those of a younger sibling of this man.

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 01:25 PM
BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you need police, fire, or medical?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both. I'm not sure. There's just someone screaming outside.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So you think he's yelling help?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You just heard gunshots?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How many?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: The chilling 911 call as the shooting of Trayvon Martin was taking place. Back with me now is Robert Zimmerman. His brother, George, killed Trayvon Martin. Who was screaming there, Robert?

ZIMMERMAN: That's my brother.

MORGAN: How can you be so sure? Because Trayvon's family are equally adamant it is their boy.

ZIMMERMAN: You know, that's a very sensitive thing to talk about. I don't blame them for being as equally adamant, I don't blame anybody whose family member they believe or perceive that they hear on the tape for being as equally adamant. I would expect nothing less, actually. I know that that's George. I know that one of the -- the saddest things for him in this whole thing was that despite those screams, no one came to his aid.

Those screams could have avoided, you know, what eventually George had to do to defend his life, if someone had, you know, heard them, come out, shown a light on the situation, said, get out of here, what are you guys doing? Because of that pain that he felt in particular, that he was screaming out so many times, I know that that's his voice. It sounds just like my voice.

I mean, he's my brother. That's what I sound like if I yell. But, you know, there are hopefully technological means to sort all that out. We thought --

Robert Zimmerman jr.'s opinion
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/31/pmt.01.html

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Trayvon Martin Shooting: Voice Experts Claim Cries Heard On 911 Call Were Not George Zimmerman's
Posted: 03/31/2012 11:20 pm Updated: 04/ 2/2012 8:43 am

Before George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin on February 26, a 911 call recorded the voice of someone screaming. Whether that person was Martin or Zimmerman -- who police say claimed he was attacked by Martin before the fatal incident -- has been an open question since the calls were released by the Sanford, Florida police department. (WARNING: Above audio is disturbing.)

The Orlando Sentinel consulted two voice experts to try to settle the debate, and both came to the same conclusion: The cries could not have come from George Zimmerman.

One expert, Tom Owen, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman as the source. From the Sentinel:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html



I've asked this question before, if the "experts" are so certain that it is Mr. Martin, why does Investigator Gilbreath state that the only evidence they have saying it is Mr. Martin is his mother. This was at the bail hearing.

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 01:29 PM
The 911 call was the first thing I heard/knew about the case, and my reaction upon hearing the cries were that they were those of a young person (teens or younger) and not those of a 28 year old. In fairness, I have not to this day heard GZ's speaking voice at all, but would expect him to have a more youthful pitch if those were indeed his cries regardless of breathing, blood etc. Somewhat like comparing Michael Jackson's adult voice to those of any of his brothers. Michael had a higher pitched voice I would tend to think of a youth in puberty ranges as opposed to a mature adult voice.

Hearing Trayvon's brother's voice also makes me think the screams could indeed be those of a younger sibling of this man.

GZ can be heard talking on the 911 call
George Zimmerman 911 call about Trayvon Martin UnRedacted - YouTube

and in the bond hearing
George Zimmerman's apology to Trayvon Martin's parents - YouTube

IzzyBlanche
05-06-2012, 01:32 PM
Interesting article on this topic at link:

"Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.htm

If this article is correct, then at trial we will see some non-expert witnesses testify that it is GZ screaming and others testify that it is TM screaming. Result: draw on this particular issue. JMO MOO etc.

Elley Mae
05-06-2012, 01:34 PM
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/about-those-audio-forsenic-experts

Tom Owen is mentioned first in the article. He’s described as a forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services, LLC.

Let’s take a closer look at the process he used.

LambChop
05-06-2012, 01:37 PM
I've asked this question before, if the "experts" are so certain that it is Mr. Martin, why does Investigator Gilbreath state that the only evidence they have saying it is Mr. Martin is his mother. This was at the bail hearing.

The expert never said it was TM. They just said they were certain it was not GZ. Also SA did not ask for the test. My guess is they will rely on FBI findings which they have not received yet. Gilbreath can only say he has heard of the OS testing not that he interviewed them because he did not. He did, however, interview TM's mother. jmo

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 01:38 PM
I get a 404 error using the above link but this should work
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.html

LiveLaughLuv
05-06-2012, 01:45 PM
I've asked this question before, if the "experts" are so certain that it is Mr. Martin, why does Investigator Gilbreath state that the only evidence they have saying it is Mr. Martin is his mother. This was at the bail hearing.

I was a little confused myself but DelaRionda at first tells the investigator something about they weren't prepared to talk evidence, paraphrased.

I believe it turned into a mini evidence hearing by ambush..Why they weren't better prepared is anyone's guess...but I believe they were caught off guard and were only prepared for the 'bond' hearing, not evidence hearing...:banghead:



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Gilbreath, I didn't know we were going to be trying the case, I'm going to add up -- I apologize. I want to add some questions to -- you had reviewed or other members of the team had reviewed his interviews, is that not true.

GILBREATH: That is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he gave -- he the defendant gave numerous interviews to the police did he not.

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

PaperDoll
05-06-2012, 01:46 PM
I'm glad this thread was started, I was thinking of starting one regarding this. :blushing:

I believe the screams for help are from TM :(. GZ did NOT have to pull the trigger, he had the upper hand in this so called struggle. He was the one who pursued TM, not the other way around. He was the one who called the non-emergency hotline, not the other way around. He was the one carrying a gun, not the other way around. He is the one who is walking around ALIVE, not the other way around :(

This case still saddens me :( a 17 year old teen is dead because of a over zealous crime watch man, or whatever :jail:

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 01:46 PM
The expert never said it was TM. They just said they were certain it was not GZ. Also SA did not ask for the test. My guess is they will rely on FBI findings which they have not received yet. Gilbreath can only say he has heard of the OS testing not that he interviewed them because he did not. He did, however, interview TM's mother. jmo

You may be correct about the experts, though I'm fairly certain the experts I heard talking about it said they were sure that it was Mr. Martin. This was right before I stopped paying attention to the media, so it's been a while. Unfortunately I can't even say which outlet it was that I was listening to but at the time the question in my mind was "how did you compare Mr. Martin's voice to the screams?"

LambChop
05-06-2012, 01:50 PM
You may be correct about the experts, though I'm fairly certain the experts I heard talking about it said they were sure that it was Mr. Martin. This was right before I stopped paying attention to the media, so it's been a while. Unfortunately I can't even say which outlet it was that I was listening to but at the time the question in my mind was "how did you compare Mr. Martin's voice to the screams?"

The reporter may have concluded it was Martin. How could someone testing say it was 100% Martin when they did not have a sample of his normal voice to test? I only read that the experts were only sure it was not GZ. jmo

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 01:51 PM
You may be correct about the experts, though I'm fairly certain the experts I heard talking about it said they were sure that it was Mr. Martin. This was right before I stopped paying attention to the media, so it's been a while. Unfortunately I can't even say which outlet it was that I was listening to but at the time the question in my mind was "how did you compare Mr. Martin's voice to the screams?"

IIRC the expert who used the biometric voice analysis system was pretty explicit that he could only say that his tests said it was not consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's voice and he hadn't had a sample of Mr. Martin's voice to compare so he couldn't say anything about that.

The other expert who seemed to rely more on his own expert opinion instead of technical tests said that in his opinion it was Mr. Martin because it was a younger voice.

Edit: Yep.
articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Karmady
05-06-2012, 02:02 PM
The expert never said it was TM. They just said they were certain it was not GZ. Also SA did not ask for the test. My guess is they will rely on FBI findings which they have not received yet. Gilbreath can only say he has heard of the OS testing not that he interviewed them because he did not. He did, however, interview TM's mother. jmo

Iirc, what Owens said was that he got a 48% correlation to George's voice and would require 60% or more to be sure. In the article I read, the head of the Forensic society (still can't remember the full name of the org.), the same one who concluded that the other word was "punks", had the same conclusion attributed to him but was not quoted like Owens was.

Idk, I've listened to that tape several times and haven't heard the type of screaming y'all seem to have heard. I really can't find the right words to characterize it myself though. In any case, I think there's a large question about whether and what expert evidence on the voice will come in and, in the meantime, we have an eyewitness saying it was George.

Link to the 60% number from Owen

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/02/sp.01.html

O'BRIEN: Yes -- what would that number be though? For you to be comfortable to go into a courtroom, what would that number have to be, in the 70s, the 80s? At what point do you get the green dot that says yes, we sort of have a match?

OWEN: Well, you'd have to get over 60 percent and the green dot. The green dot just delineates the software and the filters that are used, the three set of filters that are used in the software.

Elley Mae
05-06-2012, 02:07 PM
This is the two "experts" interviewed by Lawence O'Donnell
Ed Primeau on MSNBC - Audio Forensic Expert - Trayvon Martin Murder - YouTube

No comment

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 02:09 PM
The reporter may have concluded it was Martin. How could someone testing say it was 100% Martin when they did not have a sample of his normal voice to test? I only read that the experts were only sure it was not GZ. jmo

I don't recall them stating it with any percentage of certainty, but again this was some time ago. Without a source/video to back up my claim I'd rather just agree that whoever it was, was incorrect in their thesis if they did indeed say it was Mr. Martin. :truce:

lauriej
05-06-2012, 02:12 PM
--the screams are heard replayed numerous times here...


Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube

Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr

KateNY
05-06-2012, 02:17 PM
Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

jjenny
05-06-2012, 02:19 PM
Interesting article on this topic at link:

"Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.htm

If this article is correct, then at trial we will see some non-expert witnesses testify that it is GZ screaming and others testify that it is TM screaming. Result: draw on this particular issue. JMO MOO etc.

The voice test analysis might end up not being admitted in court at all, since there are few words heard on 911 tape, and guidelines ask for comparing a number of words. My guess it might end up not admissible all together. Of course the "jury pool" already heard those two experts to get in front of the cameras and declare that the screams were not coming from Zimmerman.

wishuwerehere
05-06-2012, 02:19 PM
It doesn’t make any sense that Zimmerman would be the one screaming for help. These cries for help have a desperate and begging quality to them. Like someone on the verge of losing their life. Who lost their life that night? Who was followed, pursued and confronted? Who was walking down the street minding his on business, talking to his girl on his cell? Trayvon: RIP.

Who was armed that night? Who got out of his vehicle and pursued an innocent teenager? Who has a history of holding others to an imaginary authoritarian set of rules in his on head, but doesn’t hold himself to that same set of rules?

Zimmerman: GUILTY of SECOND DEGREE MURDER.

jmo

jjenny
05-06-2012, 02:20 PM
Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

FBI doesn't have a magic tool to "clear it up."

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 02:24 PM
It doesn’t make any sense that Zimmerman would be the one screaming for help. These cries for help have a desperate and begging quality to them. Like someone on the verge of losing their life. Who lost their life that night? Who was followed, pursued and confronted? Who was walking down the street minding his on business, talking to his girl on his cell? Trayvon: RIP.

Who was armed that night? Who got out of his vehicle and pursued an innocent teenager? Who has a history of holding others to an imaginary authoritarian set of rules in his on head, but doesn’t hold himself to that same set of rules?

Zimmerman: GUILTY of SECOND DEGREE MURDER.

jmo

Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

To add to what jjenny said in her (assumption, sorry if I'm wrong) reply to you, someone quoted an article where the FBI stated they only use voice analysis for investigation, not trials. So then, even if they did have a magic tool it would be of little help for a conviction.

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 02:28 PM
By process of elimination we can conclude that since it is not Zimmerman calling for help that it must be Trayvon that was screaming and begging for his life. Unless of course there was more than the two of them out there that night. Now, if it turns out that there was more than just the two of them then Zimmerman is definately sunk since he has never said that it was more than himself and Trayvon that night.

MOO

wishuwerehere
05-06-2012, 02:29 PM
Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

I'll play. Your assumption falls short because Zimmerman always had assistance: Smith & Wesson. That is why I believe he exited his vehicle in the first place.

jmo

LambChop
05-06-2012, 02:31 PM
Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

I think once his gun was exposed GZ's gun was exposed he pretty much feared TM could have gotten ahold of it and used it against him. That may not have been true and it's possible TM was trying to keep from being shot. Either way had GZ not followed TM there would have been no chase, no fight, no shot fires and no dead body on the ground. We should be accountable for lives of others when we take risks. GZ had a choice, TM may not. jmo

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I'll play. Your assumption falls short because Zimmerman always had assistance: Smith & Wesson. That is why I believe he exited his vehicle in the first place.

jmo

Wish, I'm going to add the following to your post, if you don't mind...........

Zimmerman also knew that police were on the way as he had already been told by the dispatcher they were. "John" also did not just leave Zimmerman to fend for himself, "John" said he was calling 911. Now, as many times as Zimmerman has called 911 and the non-emergancy number, I'm sure he knew the approximate time of their arrival.

MOO

LambChop
05-06-2012, 02:36 PM
To add to what jjenny said in her (assumption, sorry if I'm wrong) reply to you, someone quoted an article where the FBI stated they only use voice analysis for investigation, not trials. So then, even if they did have a magic tool it would be of little help for a conviction.

If the FBI tests show it is TM's voice they would more than like write a report for SA. SA could then conduct their own tests based on what the FBI reported to them. jmo

Concerned Papa
05-06-2012, 02:36 PM
Here's what I know:
"John" stated on camera that Mr. Zimmerman ("the guy in red") was "yelling" for help. He said he ran upstairs to call 911, before he could get upstairs and look out the window Mr. Martin was dead. He does not state that he heard more yells while running upstairs.

All hearsay, but he probably will be testifying as a witness.

Good topic by the way, thanks!

I'm not sure what to make of "John". Let me show you why.

This is the floor plan for "John's" unit at 1221 Twin Trees. Notice the very small bathroom window I've circled:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMJohnUpstairsDwnstairs.png

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

I'm fully aware of all that "John's" comments say. I've watched the video numerous times and read it several more. I'm aware that "John" says the fight/shooting was right outside his porch.

Now, with that said, I ran across a video last night with Francis Taaffe doing a walk thru with NBC, oddly enough on the same date as the Legislator's opinion piece on SYG, March 21.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite

I snipped out a part of what Taaffe said because that was the first I knew of his saying anything about body location. Watch this short 16 second vid I posted a short while ago at YouTube:

Francis Taaffe Shows Where Trayvon Died - YouTube

Considering not only where Taaffe is standing and looking, notice the point RZ Sr. refers to as "where the sidewalks meet" is directly behind him.

Considering the exceptionally small size and "tight squeeze" placement of this bathroom window, look at the image in the attachment below. How likely is it that "John" would have the field of vision to even see where Taaffe and RZ Sr. say the deal went down?

I don't mind telling you, I can't see it, and that puts a quandary surrounding what Taaffe, Zimmerman Sr., AND "John" have to say. Add to that mix what George Zimmerman's OWN ATTORNEY and a State Investigator said at the Bond Hearing about the location of the body being, what would be, 170 feet up the sidewalk from where the aforementioned three said it was at:

From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

I don't understand how something as straightforward as the body's location could be this convoluted, but I gotta tell you, my money's riding on the attorney and the Investigator to be shooting us straight as opposed to any of those three.

who
05-06-2012, 02:38 PM
...since there are few words heard on 911 tape, and guidelines ask for comparing a number of words. ...
It's a good thing the investigators have a voice recording of Zimmerman replicating those cries of Help me! , isn't it?

suzihawk
05-06-2012, 02:42 PM
Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

But he thought he knew who Trayvon was... he was one of those a$$holes that always gets away. Moreso than the other way around, at any rate, where Trayvon had no clue who this man was that was pursuing him - or why.

IMO

IzzyBlanche
05-06-2012, 02:43 PM
It's a good thing the investigators have a voice recording of Zimmerman replicating those cries of Help me! , isn't it?

They do? Or is my sarcasm detector broken? :waitasec:

Disclaimer: I've been ill and my head's full of cotton.

csziggy
05-06-2012, 02:48 PM
Before I try to touch on this topic. . . . . Does anyone have a 10-foot pole I can borrow?

I want a hazmat suit to get into this one!

who
05-06-2012, 02:58 PM
They do? Or is my sarcasm detector broken? :waitasec:

Disclaimer: I've been ill and my head's full of cotton.
No, they actually do have a recording of Zimmerman recreating his help me cries.

:)

No joke.

who
05-06-2012, 03:00 PM
Here (April 19):

The source familiar with the case said that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators had Zimmerman lie on his back in another location in an effort to recreate the position he said he had been in during the shooting. Then, the source said, investigators recorded Zimmerman as he shouted what had been heard on the 911 calls: cries such as, “Help me!”New Account: Zimmerman Told Cops Trayvon (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=exclusive_breaking_news&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bexclusive_breaking_news&utm_term=Breaking%20News%20and%20Exclusives) <-well worth the full read.

Now true, this is an anonymous LEO source "familiar with Zimmerman's account" - but the fact he was one of the first to note the smothering, and it was confirmed later at the bond hearing that it *was* part of Zimmerman's account, lends me to give credence to this LEO source.

(A side note: that source also said Zimmerman was so paralyzed with fear, he initially "forgot he had a gun." Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Who forgets they have a gun?? Give me a break.)

But to the point. Yes, the police HAD ZIMMERMAN CRY FOR HELP AND THEY RECORDED IT! So there IS a voice example of Zimmerman's voice to compare with.

That may very well prove to be devastating to the defense, and likely part of why Corey charged Murder 2.

In this day and age where recordings of voices are abundant, (answering machines, people singing/talking into public mics [I'm thinking school plays, or commenting after a football game, for ex.] and all the other places voices get recorded), I 'd be willing to bet good money they have a voice example of Trayvon somewhere.

And if that's the case, it may very well be a slam dunk, in that regard.

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:03 PM
It's a good thing the investigators have a voice recording of Zimmerman replicating those cries of Help me! , isn't it?

They need to have more than 2 words for comparison. At least 10. And by the way to me it sounds like Zimmerman was screaming. So, IMO, if they could accurately pinpoint who was screaming it would only help Zimmerman.

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 03:04 PM
But, but, but, the replicated screams of help from Zimmerman that were recorded by LE after the fact will not be accurate either since at the time of the replication Zimmerman was not in fear of his life any longer...................just getting a head start on the new round of "explain away any evidence that points to Zimmerman being guilty".

AJ Noiter
05-06-2012, 03:06 PM
I, personally, don't feel that we can accurately compare Zimmerman to anyone else that may have a weapon unless the person we are comparing to Zimmerman has also placed numerous calls to 911 and the non-emergancy line for the things that Zimmerman has in the past. We would also need to compare him with someone that has more or less the same background that Zimmerman has. All of it tells what type of person they are and points to their mentality as to how they would or would not react and why they would carry a gun.

MOO

As a former 911 dispatcher myself, I can tell you that most likely whatever he called in about previous to the 26th of February is nothing out of the ordinary for a typical 911 call. I haven't heard/read about those calls so I can't say factually either way. However, it is somewhat of a red herring. His previous 911 calls have no bearing on the night in question, or the question in question.

The question was: COULD he have the mentality that he does not want to use his weapon unless it was 100% necessary. I'm not asking you to state factually because we're supposedly in a hypothetical as it is. COULD he have this mentality?

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:06 PM
By process of elimination we can conclude that since it is not Zimmerman calling for help that it must be Trayvon that was screaming and begging for his life. Unless of course there was more than the two of them out there that night. Now, if it turns out that there was more than just the two of them then Zimmerman is definately sunk since he has never said that it was more than himself and Trayvon that night.

MOO

No, we can not use a "process of elimination" since it has not been proven that technique the expert was using is in fact accurate.

who
05-06-2012, 03:07 PM
They need to have more than 2 words for comparison. At least 10. And by the way to me it sounds like Zimmerman was screaming. So, IMO, if they could accurately pinpoint who was screaming it would only help Zimmerman.
Well, according to this LEO source, they had Zimmerman recreate what he was supposed to have screamed that night and recorded it.

It's possible no expert technological voice forensics will be needed. Just the ears of reasonable people listening to two screams side by side, both screaming -- that are supposed to be of the same person - that sound nothing at all alike.

And to my hearing, just of the screams -- that is a teenagers voice, that ended the second the shot was fired.

No doubt about it.

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:07 PM
But, but, but, the replicated screams of help from Zimmerman that were recorded by LE after the fact will not be accurate either since at the time of the replication Zimmerman was not in fear of his life any longer...................just getting a head start on the new round of "explain away any evidence that points to Zimmerman being guilty".

We don't know what the results of those police tests are. For all you know Zimmerman matched.

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:09 PM
Well, according to this LEO source, they had Zimmerman recreate what he was supposed to have screamed that night and recorded it.

It's possible no expert technological voice forensics will be needed. Just the ears of reasonable people listening to two screams side by side, both screaming -- that are supposed to be of the same person - that sound nothing at all alike.

And to my hearing, just of the screams -- that is a teenagers voice, that ended the second the shot was fired.

No doubt about it.

And do you know what police concluded based on those voice tests? All I know is the investigator for prosecution got on the stand and basically claimed he had no clue who the screaming person was.

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 03:10 PM
As a former 911 dispatcher myself, I can tell you that most likely whatever he called in about previous to the 26th of February is nothing out of the ordinary for a typical 911 call. I haven't heard/read about those calls so I can't say factually either way. However, it is somewhat of a red herring. His previous 911 calls have no bearing on the night in question, or the question in question.

The question was: COULD he have the mentality that he does not want to use his weapon unless it was 100% necessary. I'm not asking you to state factually because we're supposedly in a hypothetical as it is. COULD he have this mentality?

COULD he have that mentality? Sure. Could he also have the mentality that he is above the law, that his word is golden and that whatever he believes is right for him trumps all others? Sure.

I have seen the calls that he had placed before. I read the transcripts from the dispatchers and I can tell you that a good number of them were for open garage doors. No one breaking in, no one casing the joint, just open garage doors. There were also a couple of Zimmerman following a car, a motorcylce, and a guy on a bike. Zimmerman was in his vehicle at the time following and giving the dispatcher a play by play as to where the "suspect" was at the time.

MOO

who
05-06-2012, 03:10 PM
And do you know what police concluded based on those voice tests? All I know is the investigator for prosecution got on the stand and basically claimed he had no clue who the screaming person was.
If you review his testimony, and the way the question was asked and answered, I think Gilbreath was being a bit coy with the answer, though truthful.

Also, he noted earlier he and the other investigator split up portions of the investigation. It's likely he may not have been privy to all the other investigator had, and/or it was still in the process of being worked on to a scientific certainty.

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:12 PM
If you review his testimony, and the way the question was asked and answered, I think Gilbreath was being a bit coy with the answer, though truthful.

Also, he noted earlier he and the other investigator split up portions of the investigation. It's likely he may not have been privy to all the other investigator had, and/or it was still in the process of being worked on to a scientific certainty.

I don't buy that for a second. If they could match those screams to Trayvon why wouldn't he say so?

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 03:16 PM
IF SPD or any other LE had proof that it was in fact Zimmerman on the 911 call screaming and yelling for help that information would have been handed over to A Corey when she took over the case. Contrary to what some may believe of her, I do not see her risking her career to lie about the origin of those screams in order to obtain an arrest warrent for Zimmerman. If there was any proof that it was Zimmerman that information would have been leaked before now.

MOO

JBean
05-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Those of you that recently had posts removed from this thread:
there was nothing wrong with your posts except that they were in the wrong thread. Please find the appropriate thread for your discussion.
thank you!

who
05-06-2012, 03:17 PM
I don't buy that for a second. If they could match those screams to Trayvon why wouldn't he say so?
er, it was a bond hearing, not a trial?

jjenny
05-06-2012, 03:23 PM
er, it was a bond hearing, not a trial?

I presume he is under oath either way.

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Anyway, if the person crying for help was Zimmerman, it proves... what?

TorisMom003
05-06-2012, 03:31 PM
I will admit this, I do believe that there is one "help" that was Zimmerman. I do believe that one "help" from Zimmerman came right before he fired his shot into Trayvon. I do not believe that the other screams and pleas are from Zimmerman, I belive those are Trayvon begging for his life. So technically, yes Zimmerman yelled "help". He just doesn't clarify that it was only once and more than likely for the benefit of those neighbors that were hearing the screams of Trayvon.

MOO

who
05-06-2012, 03:32 PM
I presume he is under oath either way.
He was.

And he answered to what he knew, then.

Doesn't mean more information is not out there, just that at that point, what they had did not provide "insight." That's all he had to answer at the time.

KateNY
05-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Here (April 19):

New Account: Zimmerman Told Cops Trayvon (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=exclusive_breaking_news&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bexclusive_breaking_news&utm_term=Breaking%20News%20and%20Exclusives) <-well worth the full read.


(A side note: that source also said Zimmerman was so paralyzed with fear, he initially "forgot he had a gun." Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Who forgets they have a gun?? Give me a break.)



~snip~


For you folks that 'carry'...would you ever forget you had a gun?

I only have a rifle, so MHO doesn't count

:waitasec:

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 03:41 PM
I wonder if the audio wizards at the FBI were able to enhance the 911 recordings and make out if Trayvon Martin's last words were "you got me" or "you shot me" or something along those lines.

csziggy
05-06-2012, 04:21 PM
I don't buy that for a second. If they could match those screams to Trayvon why wouldn't he say so?

Detective Gilbreath would not say so because he did not do the comparison, he is not qualified to do that kind of analysis and possibly because he has not seen the actual report from the expert who was qualified and did do the analysis. He testified that he knew that experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel and the FBI had done analysis, but that does not mean he had any knowledge of their conclusions or was capable of testifying about the results.

O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

O'Mara asked, "Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?" Gilbreath asked him, "Did I?" because Gilbreath knew very well that was a 'fishing' question - he was not a voice expert and could not answer it. O'Mara then amended his question to, "Did you or are you aware of anything?" which Gilbreath could answer - he was aware of analysis done by the {Orlando} Sentinel and by the FBI and that those were part of the investigation.

But then O'Mara tried to push the point again and asked, "Has that given any insight as to the voice?" OF COURSE, Gilbreath answered "No" for the reasons I gave above.

IMO, JMO, etc.

songline
05-06-2012, 04:46 PM
I have always believed that they were both on the bottom and on top at different times, and both screamed at different times.
I do not believe the screams indicate anything more then "there was a scuffle".

Karmady
05-06-2012, 04:47 PM
Detective Gilbreath would not say so because he did not do the comparison, he is not qualified to do that kind of analysis and possibly because he has not seen the actual report from the expert who was qualified and did do the analysis. He testified that he knew that experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel and the FBI had done analysis, but that does not mean he had any knowledge of their conclusions or was capable of testifying about the results.



O'Mara asked, "Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?" Gilbreath asked him, "Did I?" because Gilbreath knew very well that was a 'fishing' question - he was not a voice expert and could not answer it. O'Mara then amended his question to, "Did you or are you aware of anything?" which Gilbreath could answer - he was aware of analysis done by the {Orlando} Sentinel and by the FBI and that those were part of the investigation.

But then O'Mara tried to push the point again and asked, "Has that given any insight as to the voice?" OF COURSE, Gilbreath answered "No" for the reasons I gave above.

IMO, JMO, etc.

I read it the exact opposite. I see it as Q: Did you analyze? A: No I didn't, but others have. A: okay, now that we've determined that you didn't do the analysis, but it was done by others "has that given any insight [to anyone] as to the voice?"

Note that O'Mara doesn't frame that last question as a "you" question, and the witness doesn't answer it with a "me" response, imo, because they had already established that the witness did not do the analysis; the analysis had, in the past, been done by others; and the witness was aware of that although he did not personally participate in the analysis. If he wanted to respond only on his own behalf, he could have said "did it give ME insight?" Just like he did when he was asked about the analysis in the first place. I don't think he was being coy. I think the analysis was inconclusive. jmo

Donjeta
05-06-2012, 05:12 PM
I don't know if the FBI had access to Trayvon Martin's voice samples, hopefully they did, but the Orlando Sentinel experts didn't.

IMO without Trayvon's voice sample "no" would be the correct answer to the question, if it means "did it give you insight as to whose voice it is". The only thing that the OS experts could conclude was that it wasn't George Zimmerman's voice but even if it is the correct result it does not mean that you should automatically get the insight that the voice is Trayvon Martin's. The test just eliminated one person from the universe of possible voices. The voice cannot be positively identified as Trayvon Martin's just because it may not have been George Zimmerman's. There could have been a third person screaming. Maybe one of the witnesses got scared and yelled. The tests say nothing about this possibility.

sleonardelli
05-06-2012, 05:18 PM
I think once his gun was exposed GZ's gun was exposed he pretty much feared TM could have gotten ahold of it and used it against him. That may not have been true and it's possible TM was trying to keep from being shot. Either way had GZ not followed TM there would have been no chase, no fight, no shot fires and no dead body on the ground. We should be accountable for lives of others when we take risks. GZ had a choice, TM may not. jmo

IMO, this is why these laws need to change to protect citizens at large. NWP protocol "prohibits" weapons and CCW protocol indicates the CCW individual has a responsibility not to initiate a conflict and not act as LE. If an individual chooses, in either NWP or CCW capacity, to "violate" those protocols, they should not necessarily be protected by SYG or self-defense.

If GZ would've followed not only NWP guidelines (no weapons), but also CCW guidelines (not to cause a conflict/not act like LE), he would've never feared Trayvon accessing his weapon. Instead, GZ CHOSE to get out of his car to follow (again, against NWP protocol). IDK for sure where GZ was when he said "OK" to the advice not to follow but apparently, he and Trayvon did meet (according to the GF's "testimony"). I doubt we'll ever know who initiated the "scuffle" but, IMO, I think GZ, as the adult, should've done MUCH MORE (never began to follow or carried his weapon) to prevent this tragedy.

sleonardelli
05-06-2012, 05:31 PM
Per RZ's statements regarding choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing (broken nose), I cannot see how those screams could possibly be GZ's.

sleonardelli
05-06-2012, 05:46 PM
I'm not sure what to make of "John". Let me show you why.

This is the floor plan for "John's" unit at 1221 Twin Trees. Notice the very small bathroom window I've circled:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMJohnUpstairsDwnstairs.png

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

I'm fully aware of all that "John's" comments say. I've watched the video numerous times and read it several more. I'm aware that "John" says the fight/shooting was right outside his porch.

Now, with that said, I ran across a video last night with Francis Taaffe doing a walk thru with NBC, oddly enough on the same date as the Legislator's opinion piece on SYG, March 21.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite

I snipped out a part of what Taaffe said because that was the first I knew of his saying anything about body location. Watch this short 16 second vid I posted a short while ago at YouTube:

Francis Taaffe Shows Where Trayvon Died - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ktYW3iPq90)

Considering not only where Taaffe is standing and looking, notice the point RZ Sr. refers to as "where the sidewalks meet" is directly behind him.

Considering the exceptionally small size and "tight squeeze" placement of this bathroom window, look at the image in the attachment below. How likely is it that "John" would have the field of vision to even see where Taaffe and RZ Sr. say the deal went down?

I don't mind telling you, I can't see it, and that puts a quandary surrounding what Taaffe, Zimmerman Sr., AND "John" have to say. Add to that mix what George Zimmerman's OWN ATTORNEY and a State Investigator said at the Bond Hearing about the location of the body being, what would be, 170 feet up the sidewalk from where the aforementioned three said it was at:





I don't understand how something as straightforward as the body's location could be this convoluted, but I gotta tell you, my money's riding on the attorney and the Investigator to be shooting us straight as opposed to any of those three.

Wow! I just caught part of that article where FT says “I think any time you use a weapon, there are certain anger issues working,” Taaffe said. “I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”

Seems to make the case for "depraved mind" doesn't it?

csziggy
05-06-2012, 05:51 PM
I read it the exact opposite. I see it as Q: Did you analyze? A: No I didn't, but others have. A: okay, now that we've determined that you didn't do the analysis, but it was done by others "has that given any insight [to anyone] as to the voice?"

Note that O'Mara doesn't frame that last question as a "you" question, and the witness doesn't answer it with a "me" response, imo, because they had already established that the witness did not do the analysis; the analysis had, in the past, been done by others; and the witness was aware of that although he did not personally participate in the analysis. If he wanted to respond only on his own behalf, he could have said "did it give ME insight?" Just like he did when he was asked about the analysis in the first place. I don't think he was being coy. I think the analysis was inconclusive. jmo

If Detective Gilbreath had not read the reports of the FBI or the actual reports from the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel (other than the general information published in the newspaper) then how could he have gotten any insight as to the voice? As to whether or not anyone else on the prosecution team might have insight, that would be hearsay as far as Gilbreath could say. It would be improper for him to testify about it under oath.

Gilbreath has been a law enforcement officer for a long time and has testified under oath enough times that he probably knew that it was something that he could not answer with anything other than a "No" response, no matter how O'Mara fished for an answer that would help Zimmerman's defense.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Karmady
05-06-2012, 06:27 PM
If Detective Gilbreath had not read the reports of the FBI or the actual reports from the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel (other than the general information published in the newspaper) then how could he have gotten any insight as to the voice? As to whether or not anyone else on the prosecution team might have insight, that would be hearsay as far as Gilbreath could say. It would be improper for him to testify about it under oath.
Gilbreath has been a law enforcement officer for a long time and has testified under oath enough times that he probably knew that it was something that he could not answer with anything other than a "No" response, no matter how O'Mara fished for an answer that would help Zimmerman's defense.

IMO, JMO, etc.

You can give hearsay testimony in court if there is no objection. In fact, imo, you can give any kind of inadmissible testimony or evidence in court if there is no objection. The court might not consider it, but rarely would a judge object for you.

But also, the the correct answer to the question, if the witness had no personal insight would be "I don't know" and maybe "[you'd have to ask XYZ]." Since he was answering a question that wasn't directed to his own personal knowledge, he also could have clarified that "he, himself, did not get any insight from the analysis." He had just clarified the prior question and answer in exactly that way, as I mentioned.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. We can agree to disagree :)

Emeralgem
05-06-2012, 07:33 PM
I will admit this, I do believe that there is one "help" that was Zimmerman. I do believe that one "help" from Zimmerman came right before he fired his shot into Trayvon. I do not believe that the other screams and pleas are from Zimmerman, I belive those are Trayvon begging for his life. So technically, yes Zimmerman yelled "help". He just doesn't clarify that it was only once and more than likely for the benefit of those neighbors that were hearing the screams of Trayvon.

MOO

And I am in total agreement with your thoughts on the subject..JMHO

saguaro
05-06-2012, 09:12 PM
The cries for help are confusing because GZ is so soft spoken.

He doesn't have a deep, masculine voice.

IMO!

who
05-06-2012, 09:12 PM
And I am in total agreement with your thoughts on the subject..JMHO
I second that emotion.

amymarie
05-06-2012, 09:17 PM
Well, according to this LEO source, they had Zimmerman recreate what he was supposed to have screamed that night and recorded it.

It's possible no expert technological voice forensics will be needed. Just the ears of reasonable people listening to two screams side by side, both screaming -- that are supposed to be of the same person - that sound nothing at all alike.

And to my hearing, just of the screams -- that is a teenagers voice, that ended the second the shot was fired.

No doubt about it.

I've never been attacked or in a gun fight before, but I can almost guarantee that if I was being attacked and I was screaming, and then I shot my attacker, I would still be screaming out of shock that I had just shot someone and because I don't think it would comprehend right away that the attack was over.

lonetraveler
05-06-2012, 09:59 PM
Per RZ's statements regarding choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing (broken nose), I cannot see how those screams could possibly be GZ's.

I've got to say that I agree with you. After reading GZ's brother's statement about GZ choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing and then listening to the frantic screams for help, I just cannot put GZ as the one doing the screaming, how on earth could he scream that loud while choking on blood and having difficulty with breathing. The person screaming doesn't appear to have a choking or breathing problem.

Nova
05-06-2012, 10:38 PM
Interesting article on this topic at link:

"Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.htm

If this article is correct, then at trial we will see some non-expert witnesses testify that it is GZ screaming and others testify that it is TM screaming. Result: draw on this particular issue. JMO MOO etc.

Izzy, I couldn't find the article at that link. Probably my fault.

But I have to believe that the accuracy of voice identification testing goes up radically as the number of possible suspects falls. It's one thing to identify an unknown caller out of all the people with telephones in a city; it's quite another to identify which of two possible people were screaming.

I think we're going to hear that the latter is far more accurate.

Nova
05-06-2012, 10:52 PM
He was.

And he answered to what he knew, then.

Doesn't mean more information is not out there, just that at that point, what they had did not provide "insight." That's all he had to answer at the time.

I'm sure detectives are taught to say "I don't know" rather than speculate in response to questions for which the detective has not prepared.

To do otherwise--to say, "Yeah, I think the FBI proved the screams didn't come from GZ"--is to open the door to further questioning for which Gilbreath was not prepared. He would have risked discrediting the entire FBI testing process by giving wrong answers on a subject he hadn't studied.

Nova
05-06-2012, 10:58 PM
I read it the exact opposite. I see it as Q: Did you analyze? A: No I didn't, but others have. A: okay, now that we've determined that you didn't do the analysis, but it was done by others "has that given any insight [to anyone] as to the voice?"

Note that O'Mara doesn't frame that last question as a "you" question, and the witness doesn't answer it with a "me" response, imo, because they had already established that the witness did not do the analysis; the analysis had, in the past, been done by others; and the witness was aware of that although he did not personally participate in the analysis. If he wanted to respond only on his own behalf, he could have said "did it give ME insight?" Just like he did when he was asked about the analysis in the first place. I don't think he was being coy. I think the analysis was inconclusive. jmo

You might be right IF both parties involved used your hyper-aware with the benefit of hindsight analysis of the exact wording. But humans being the self-focused creatures we are, I think it's more likely Gilbreath heard "given any insight" as "given any insight to you".

It would be very odd for Gilbreath to assume O'Mara was asking, "Have those tests given insight to anyone in the world?" And in fact, the answer to that question would have to be, "Yes." At least two testers thought they got insight from their testing.

RANCH
05-06-2012, 11:01 PM
Izzy, I couldn't find the article at that link. Probably my fault.

But I have to believe that the accuracy of voice identification testing goes up radically as the number of possible suspects falls. It's one thing to identify an unknown caller out of all the people with telephones in a city; it's quite another to identify which of two possible people were screaming.

I think we're going to hear that the latter is far more accurate.
It's a pretty interesting article Nova. Check it out.

Whose Voice Is Screaming for Help? Zimmerman's or Martin's?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.html

IzzyBlanche
05-06-2012, 11:06 PM
It's a pretty interesting article Nova. Check it out.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.html

Thanks for correcting my link. :smile:

Karmady
05-06-2012, 11:19 PM
You might be right IF both parties involved used your hyper-aware with the benefit of hindsight analysis of the exact wording. But humans being the self-focused creatures we are, I think it's more likely Gilbreath heard "given any insight" as "given any insight to you".

It would be very odd for Gilbreath to assume O'Mara was asking, "Have those tests given insight to anyone in the world?" And in fact, the answer to that question would have to be, "Yes." At least two testers thought they got insight from their testing.

I might agree with you if he hadn't JUST made the exact same hyper aware distinction in answering the immediately preceding question about the analysis. Plus, iirc, the post I was responding to, or at least one in the chain, suggested that the investigator was being coy.

Re your second point, I think the very clear import of the second question, in context, was did anyone "who analyzed the voices or the prosecutors' office" gain insight...not anyone in the world. And the answer to that question would be "no" only if their was no insight as to "the voice" gained, meaning that the tests were inconclusive -- "zero insight" by "anyone with knowledge of the results of the analysis.

Again, I agree it's open to interpretation. But I strongly believe in mine. lol

cherishtoo
05-06-2012, 11:24 PM
I've got to say that I agree with you. After reading GZ's brother's statement about GZ choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing and then listening to the frantic screams for help, I just cannot put GZ as the one doing the screaming, how on earth could he scream that loud while choking on blood and having difficulty with breathing. The person screaming doesn't appear to have a choking or breathing problem.

It's interesting to me how Z's team of "family and friends" has been the main source of this type of information. It's seems at this point that there was no one witness that saw the entire incident. Most of the witnesses describe hearing someone screaming, and that's why they called 911.

I think it's important to remember that daddy RZ Sr wasn't there, brother Robert wasn't there, and bff Frank wasn't there. Are we supposed to disregard all the other witness statements because of one "anonymous" John's statement?

I'm worried about these other witnesses, just as much as I want to know the truth.

Spoiler
05-07-2012, 12:33 AM
I'm glad this thread was started, I was thinking of starting one regarding this. :blushing:

I believe the screams for help are from TM :(. GZ did NOT have to pull the trigger, he had the upper hand in this so called struggle. He was the one who pursued TM, not the other way around. He was the one who called the non-emergency hotline, not the other way around. He was the one carrying a gun, not the other way around. He is the one who is walking around ALIVE, not the other way around :(

This case still saddens me :( a 17 year old teen is dead because of a over zealous crime watch man, or whatever :jail:

How do you know any of this is true? How do you KNOW George had the upper hand? He's six inches shorter than Trevon. Were you there? What do the eye witnesses say? And i doubt these guys are audio experts at all.

vlpate
05-07-2012, 12:35 AM
It's interesting to me how Z's team of "family and friends" has been the main source of this type of information. It's seems at this point that there was no one witness that saw the entire incident. Most of the witnesses describe hearing someone screaming, and that's why they called 911.

I think it's important to remember that daddy RZ Sr wasn't there, brother Robert wasn't there, and bff Frank wasn't there. Are we supposed to disregard all the other witness statements because of one "anonymous" John's statement?

I'm worried about these other witnesses, just as much as I want to know the truth.

There wasn't just the one eyewitness statement though...Matt Guttman interviews second eyewitness.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related

vlpate
05-07-2012, 12:41 AM
I've got to say that I agree with you. After reading GZ's brother's statement about GZ choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing and then listening to the frantic screams for help, I just cannot put GZ as the one doing the screaming, how on earth could he scream that loud while choking on blood and having difficulty with breathing. The person screaming doesn't appear to have a choking or breathing problem.

Wow, I don't recall the amount of blood being mentioned, possible I missed it. I think, if RZ did use the word "choking", he was likely exaggerating. GZ may have panicked believing that swallowing his own blood would eventually choke him to death, who knows what someone thinks in such a horrifying situation? If this is what he meant, then it's quite possible he could have been screaming. JMO

vlpate
05-07-2012, 12:45 AM
I've never been attacked or in a gun fight before, but I can almost guarantee that if I was being attacked and I was screaming, and then I shot my attacker, I would still be screaming out of shock that I had just shot someone and because I don't think it would comprehend right away that the attack was over.

TM had two chances to get away before the screaming started, once when he initially ran, and again when he knocked GZ to the ground. I just can't wrap my head around jumping on top of someone and screaming for help, makes no sense.

francie
05-07-2012, 01:00 AM
I wonder if the audio wizards at the FBI were able to enhance the 911 recordings and make out if Trayvon Martin's last words were "you got me" or "you shot me" or something along those lines.

This is jmo but I don't think Trayvon was able to say anything after the shooting. I think his screaming stopped abruptly after the shot because he was killed instantly due to the hollow point bullet, but we won't know until coroner's report is released. :(

:moo:

RANCH
05-07-2012, 01:00 AM
TM had two chances to get away before the screaming started, once when he initially ran, and again when he knocked GZ to the ground. I just can't wrap my head around jumping on top of someone and screaming for help, makes no sense.

I've seen some people say that GZ outran Trayvon and cornered him thus preventing Trayvons ability to reach his home. Number one, would GZ be able to outrun Trayvon? Number two, could Trayvon while running home, be cornered and not be able to escape?

vlpate
05-07-2012, 01:18 AM
I've seen some people say that GZ outran Trayvon and cornered him thus preventing Trayvons ability to reach his home. Number one, would GZ be able to outrun Trayvon? Number two, could Trayvon while running home, be cornered and not be able to to escape?

I've seen that too Ranch, but even the prosecutor stated he estimated GZ stopped following TM about a minute prior to the phone call ending. TM's g/f said TM told her he lost GZ, and GZ states on the 911 call he didn't know where he was. That would mean GZ disconnected the call and ran like the dickens, found the hiding TM, and cornered him --shall we add here "with the help of an accomplice" that some have speculated on as well?

The only thing that makes sense is TM coming out of nowhere and confronting GZ. Funny how it seems so simple to some, like me, and so difficult to countless others, lol.

cherishtoo
05-07-2012, 01:19 AM
There wasn't just the one eyewitness statement though...Matt Guttman interviews second eyewitness.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related


Thank you, I hadn't seen that before.

So just to be clear, witness AB said, I saw one person on the ground, I know they had on a t-shirt..(interviewer asks more questions)..a red t-shirt.

So to me it doesn't sound like AB has an accurate or complete eye-witness account. He said, that he saw one person on the ground. Where was the other person? He said he knows they (the person on the ground) was wearing a red t-shirt.

I hadn't heard that either GZ or TM was wearing a red t-shirt. Did AB mean red t-shirt or red jacket?

Do you know the date of that interview?

francie
05-07-2012, 01:36 AM
I've seen some people say that GZ outran Trayvon and cornered him thus preventing Trayvons ability to reach his home. Number one, would GZ be able to outrun Trayvon? Number two, could Trayvon while running home, be cornered and not be able to to escape?

GZ had his gun aimed at Trayvon which caused TM's terrified screaming, imo. I think he was standing there looking down the barrel of GZ's gun, screaming for his life, not running anywhere. GZ had caught up to TM walking not running, then shot & killed him. Unless TM had turned to run and GZ shot him in the back? TM was on his stomach, was he shot in the back? The autopsy will answer a lot of questions.

:moo: :moo:

vlpate
05-07-2012, 01:36 AM
If Detective Gilbreath had not read the reports of the FBI or the actual reports from the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel (other than the general information published in the newspaper) then how could he have gotten any insight as to the voice? As to whether or not anyone else on the prosecution team might have insight, that would be hearsay as far as Gilbreath could say. It would be improper for him to testify about it under oath.

Gilbreath has been a law enforcement officer for a long time and has testified under oath enough times that he probably knew that it was something that he could not answer with anything other than a "No" response, no matter how O'Mara fished for an answer that would help Zimmerman's defense.

IMO, JMO, etc.

"O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?"

GILBREATH: No.
LINK (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html)

The only mention of the screams in the PC document is where it states SM recognized them as her son's screams. If the FBI had found the screams to be TM's, that would surely have been in the charging document, as it would hold more weight that SM's best guess. IMO
Probable Cause Document (http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/probable_cause_affidavit.pdf)
.

lisalei321
05-07-2012, 01:52 AM
How do you know any of this is true? How do you KNOW George had the upper hand? He's six inches shorter than Trevon. Were you there? What do the eye witnesses say? And i doubt these guys are audio experts at all.

IMO...

GZ had the upper hand, because he had a gun.

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 04:16 AM
I've got to say that I agree with you. After reading GZ's brother's statement about GZ choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing and then listening to the frantic screams for help, I just cannot put GZ as the one doing the screaming, how on earth could he scream that loud while choking on blood and having difficulty with breathing. The person screaming doesn't appear to have a choking or breathing problem.

bbm

Exactly, lonetraveler!

... AND there is another FACT that many people might not know about the "copious amounts of blood," flowing down the back of George Zimmerman's throat, (as RZ jr. so adamantly claimed).


Example #1

My husband's tonsils were removed when he was 32. The surgery was apparently successful; but when I got him home and situated in bed he began vomiting blood. Shortly thereafter he suffered bloody diarrhea. He had bloody bodily fluids pouring out from both ends of his body every few minutes. I rushed him back to the hospital immediately.

Apparently some of the tonsillectomy sutures had come loose and unknown to my husband, blood was dripping down the back of his throat into his stomach.

His surgeon said that although he was certainly NOT bleeding "copious amounts," it was still necessary to take him back to surgery to re-suture the incisions. The second time I took him home with better, secure sutures he was fine.

Example #2

I took into my home my sister's adopted 18 year old daughter who my sister had thrown out of her house. I knew the adopted daughter had been experimenting with drugs but I felt badly that she had so cruelly been thrown out of her home with nowhere to go. I thought I could watch her carefully and make sure she had no access to drugs, and hopefully get her into a post high school vocational ed. program.

Things went fine for a couple weeks when she woke me up in the middle of the night and told me she was bleeding. She led me to the toilet which was FULL of bright red blood along with runny feces. She then vomitted -- again a bunch more bright red blood.

She informed me she had been stealing from my Excedrin bottle which I always had available for my migraine headaches. She was swallowing a HANDFUL of Excedrin several times a day. I still cannot imagine anyone attempting to get *high* on Excedrin. I've never heard of it before, or since.

I rushed her to the emergency room, still wearing my pajamas. Shortly thereafter her doctor warned me that she might not survive. The aspirin in the Excedrin had eaten a hole in her stomach and the acetaminophen could destroy her liver. She was in intensive care for over a week. Fortunately, she DID survive.

The moral of the stories:

The human digestive system is not meant to consume and digest ample amounts of fresh, raw blood ... most certainly NOT "copious amounts of blood."

Therefore, when blood flows out the inside-back of one's nose and enters the stomach the body's reaction is to vomit it out. IF blood passes through the stomach into the intestines, it comes out the other end as prolific, uncontrollable, bloody diarrhea.

Had George Zimmerman ingested "copious amounts of blood" flowing down the back of his throat from his supposed *broken nose,* he would have been both vomiting and probably defecating blood at the Sanford Police Station. HE DID NOT!

BTW, IF the "copious amounts of blood" traveled down GZ's throat into his lungs instead of his stomach, he would have suffocated -- drowned in his own blood.

George's story about *copious amounts of blood* flowing down his throat, along with his other nonsensical, far-fetched-tales are all a big bunch of unbelievable LIES. _ :liar:

During George's murder trial, common sense alone should prove his tall tales are self-serving LIES -- but I'm sure there will be plenty of court approved experts also there, attesting to his multiple stoopid, and oh so silly LIES! _ :D

in my opinion, of course.

who
05-07-2012, 04:27 AM
TM had two chances to get away before the screaming started, once when he initially ran, and again when he knocked GZ to the ground. I just can't wrap my head around jumping on top of someone and screaming for help, makes no sense.
Perhaps unwrapping and imagining Zimmerman confronting Martin may alleviate the confusion?

Concerned Papa
05-07-2012, 04:31 AM
How was George screaming with his mouth and nose covered?


How was George screaming if he was out of breath?


How was George screaming if he was barely conscious?


Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 05:20 AM
There wasn't just the one eyewitness statement though...Matt Guttman interviews second eyewitness.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related

bbm

Did you watch this video, vlpate? It certainly does NOT corroborate John's statement. _ :waitasec:

This kid says he saw only ONE person on the ground with a red T-SHIRT.

George was wearing a bulky red and black JACKET, NOT a T-SHIRT.

If ONLY ONE person was on the ground then there certainly is NOT a SECOND person on top of him, is there?

That kid's mother was also interviewed and firmly stated that the SPD interviewer guided her son to the answer he wanted by suggesting to her son three choices of colors, emphasizing "red" -- that the guy on the bottom was supposedly wearing.

His mother stated the boy had already told the investigator that it was too dark to see colors.

Additionally, I have also seen this same boy state that it was a WHITE T-shirt the guy on the ground was wearing.

This is an excellent example of how UNRELIABLE witness testimony is, and always has been!

Unjustly imprisoned people who have been freed from prison via accurate DNA results were sent to prison because of FAULTY eye-witness testimony more than any other single reason.

In any case, again, this boys statement absolutely does NOT corroborate John's statement! _ :o

in my humble opinion!

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 05:40 AM
How was George screaming with his mouth and nose covered?



How was George screaming if he was out of breath?



How was George screaming if he was barely conscious?


Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS0h9D9TIv0)

Thank you, Concerned Papa!

Every single one of your posts are so informative and thought provoking.

You are without a question the VERY, VERY BEST Websleuths has to offer!

... I've been around here for a long, long time and I know I also speak for many others.

Thank you again -- you're absolutely GREAT! - :clap:

:yourock:

vlpate
05-07-2012, 05:50 AM
bbm

Did you watch this video, vlpate? It certainly does NOT corroborate John's statement. _ :waitasec:

This kid says he saw only ONE person on the ground with a red T-SHIRT. George was wearing a bulky red and black JACKET, NOT a T-SHIRT.

This interview was early on and it's been completely removed by ABC. There's a reason for that, IMO. As far as whether it was a T-shirt, a sweater, or a jacket, it was red and hopefully Twin Lakes is not littered with screaming men in red, rolling around the grounds :waitasec:
If ONLY ONE person was on the ground then there certainly is NOT a SECOND person on top of him, is there?

I believe this is when TM first punched GZ. The little boy then went back around his building, as he describes, and hears the screaming when TM gets on top of GZ and assaults him.
That kid's mother was also interviewed and firmly stated that the SPD interviewer guided her son to the answer he wanted by suggesting to her son three choices of colors, emphasizing "red" -- that the guy on the bottom was supposedly wearing.
Clearly Matt Guttman did not steer him in any way, shape or form, he said, without an ounce of provocation, "red". The kid's mother also said she put LE off for three days (I'm assuming so she could obtain legal representation), before she allowed them to interview her son. She's put her 13 year old son's first, middle, and last name out to the public - why? To what end?? Why is she going on Al Shaprton's show to tell her son's story? Of course he was interviewed and likely the night it happened. When the document dump happens, we'll see agendas, IMO.
His mother stated the boy had already told the investigator that it was too dark to see colors.
His mother wasn't there.
Additionally, I have also seen this same boy state that it was a WHITE T-shirt the guy on the ground was wearing.
:waitasec: I thought it was too dark to see colors?
This is an excellent example of how UNRELIABLE witness testimony is, and always has been!

Unfortunately I think this is the exact reaction Crump and Co. were shooting or with the mother and her interviews.
Unjustly imprisoned people who have been freed from prison via accurate DNA results were sent to prison because of FAULTY eye-witness testimony more than any other single reason.
IMO, the prosecution has the faultiest eyewitness with their "shadows running" in a direction Gilbreath was not certain of. Seems a bit like reaching to me.
In any case, again, this boys statement absolutely does NOT corroborate John's statement! _ :o
in my humble opinion!
Their first statements to police are all that will count anyway, not the media circus. So, we will see come dump time. JMO

vlpate
05-07-2012, 06:02 AM
How was George screaming with his mouth and nose covered?


How was George screaming if he was out of breath?


How was George screaming if he was barely conscious?


Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS0h9D9TIv0)

I wasn't aware that we could use our own edited version of MSM videos, nice. My question would be, if it's TM screaming, why? He's on top of GZ and the screaming goes off and on for over 45 seconds.

That and the fact that no one said his mouth was covered the entire 45 - 60 seconds they were wrestling around on the ground, they were moving. It stands to reason he could have moved his head free off and on.

Mary Cutcher's, by the way, said she didn't hear screaming, that she heard moaning and then a gun shot - maybe that's when he was covering his mouth and nose? JMO

claudicici
05-07-2012, 06:04 AM
I've seen that too Ranch, but even the prosecutor stated he estimated GZ stopped following TM about a minute prior to the phone call ending. TM's g/f said TM told her he lost GZ, and GZ states on the 911 call he didn't know where he was. That would mean GZ disconnected the call and ran like the dickens, found the hiding TM, and cornered him --shall we add here "with the help of an accomplice" that some have speculated on as well?

The only thing that makes sense is TM coming out of nowhere and confronting GZ. Funny how it seems so simple to some, like me, and so difficult to countless others, lol.

When did she say that?

vlpate
05-07-2012, 06:11 AM
Perhaps unwrapping and imagining Zimmerman confronting Martin may alleviate the confusion?

Well it doesn't help because I'm not talking about the confrontation. Why would TM be screaming while he was assaulting GZ?

HiHater
05-07-2012, 06:17 AM
Well it doesn't help because I'm not talking about the confrontation. Why would TM be screaming while he was assaulting GZ?

You answered your own question. Trayvon was screaming because he was being assaulted BY George Zimmerman. JMO

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 06:24 AM
This is jmo but I don't think Trayvon was able to say anything after the shooting. I think his screaming stopped abruptly after the shot because he was killed instantly due to the hollow point bullet, but we won't know until coroner's report is released. :(

:moo:

I agree with you, francie.

A killer-hollow-point-bullet to Trayvon's center chest would have instantly ripped apart both his heart and lungs.

For Trayvon to opine with his dying last breath, "you got it," or "You got me" is not only melodramatic, right out of a 60's Western "B" movie, but also physically impossible.

Ya have to wonder how people can even dream up such ridiculous statements. _ :waitasec:

They go right along with >>>

"Copious amounts of blood flowing down George's throat."

" One more head slam to the concrete and George would be wearing diapers and spoon-fed by Robert jr. the rest of his life."

"Gashes and blows to the back of George's head so deadly serious he was almost unconscious and had to murder Trayvon to save his own life."

"George was so scared when Trayvon was nefariously circling his SUV that George forgot he was armed with his trusty 9mm handgun loaded with hollow point bullets."

** the above is my opinion and paraphrased

My 11 year old grandson could invent more convincing fairy-tale lies!

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 06:32 AM
I just wanted to point out a few things here regarding some of the recent comments.

- Judging by the timeline thread, the fight was approximately 1 minute in length (55 seconds). In that period of time many thing can happen, for example George's mouth and nose may have been covered for up to 35-40 seconds before the screams. This wouldn't allow for the "bashing" of his head into the concrete. Making a small timeline of the events, it's my belief that everything Zimmerman stated could have happened. Here's how it could have happened, in my estimation:
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower - I believe this is when Mr. Martin would have hit Mr. Zimmerman. It is also my belief that he did so with his phone, not his knuckles, which could explain why the call was dropped.
19:16:02 - Young man saw Mr. Zimmerman on the ground. Mr. Martin was still standing, out of view of the young man (see next point).
19:16:04 - Mr. Martin is on top of Mr. Zimmerman.
19:16:10 - Mr. Martin starts "slamming" Mr. Zimmerman's head into the concrete.
19:16:25 - Mr. Martin closes Mr. Zimmerman's mouth and nose.
19:16:30 - Mr. Martin notices Mr. Zimmerman's weapon.
19:16:44 - Mr. Zimmerman sees "John" and yells for him to help.
19:16:55:47 GUNSHOT

Again, just one way it could have happened with everything stated by Mr. Zimmerman being realized. Because the timeline doesn't have the time of the screams I had to estimate when I believe it would've happened.

- As with the above example, time does play a factor in how you wish to believe or not believe someone's story. I do not know the field of view the young man in the video above had, though I do know that he saw one man on the ground and then had to chase after his dog. This is not inconsistent with George's statement that Mr. Martin punched him and that Mr. Martin THEN got on top of him. It would not be instantaneous that Mr. Martin would've been on top of him. This young man probably just saw the time period from when Mr. Zimmerman was punched and did not see Mr. Martin get on top of him because he went to chase his dog. This young man saw a brief few seconds of the beginning of the struggle that lasted much longer.

vlpate
05-07-2012, 06:57 AM
I just wanted to point out a few things here regarding some of the recent comments.

- Judging by the timeline thread, the fight was approximately 1 minute in length (55 seconds). In that period of time many thing can happen, for example George's mouth and nose may have been covered for up to 35-40 seconds before the screams. This wouldn't allow for the "bashing" of his head into the concrete. Making a small timeline of the events, it's my belief that everything Zimmerman stated could have happened. Here's how it could have happened, in my estimation:
- I believe this is when Mr. Martin would have hit Mr. Zimmerman. It is also my belief that he did so with his phone, not his knuckles, which could explain why the call was dropped.
19:16:02 - Young man saw Mr. Zimmerman on the ground. Mr. Martin was still standing, out of view of the young man (see next point).
19:16:04 - Mr. Martin is on top of Mr. Zimmerman.
19:16:10 - Mr. Martin starts "slamming" Mr. Zimmerman's head into the concrete.
19:16:25 - Mr. Martin closes Mr. Zimmerman's mouth and nose.
19:16:30 - Mr. Martin notices Mr. Zimmerman's weapon.
19:16:44 - Mr. Zimmerman sees "John" and yells for him to help.


Again, just one way it could have happened with everything stated by Mr. Zimmerman being realized. Because the timeline doesn't have the time of the screams I had to estimate when I believe it would've happened.

- As with the above example, time does play a factor in how you wish to believe or not believe someone's story. I do not know the field of view the young man in the video above had, though I do know that he saw one man on the ground and then had to chase after his dog. This is not inconsistent with George's statement that Mr. Martin punched him and that Mr. Martin THEN got on top of him. It would not be instantaneous that Mr. Martin would've been on top of him. This young man probably just saw the time period from when Mr. Zimmerman was punched and did not see Mr. Martin get on top of him because he went to chase his dog. This young man saw a brief few seconds of the beginning of the struggle that lasted much longer.

:tyou: Excellent post! See if these will help with the times.

Time lapsed 911 calls - first one where he yells for help for at least 45 seconds
.
http://youtu.be/-a58plIcrdo

Another time lapsed version of 911 calls
.
http://youtu.be/FouK--YJLVs

LambChop
05-07-2012, 07:56 AM
You answered your own question. Trayvon was screaming because he was being assaulted BY George Zimmerman. JMO

I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 08:44 AM
[quote]This interview was early on and it's been completely removed by ABC. There's a reason for that, IMO. As far as whether it was a T-shirt, a sweater, or a jacket, it was red and hopefully Twin Lakes is not littered with screaming men in red, rolling around the grounds :waitasec:Would you care to share your reasons ABC removed the video? Was it a civil rights organization conspiracy?

Gee, I'm thinking that on that dark rainy night it would be much easier to determine if someone was wearing a T-Shirt or Bulky Long Sleeve Jacket than it would be to determine the color red-black from dark gray.

Isn't it interesting how ALL colors meld into grays during night time rain storms in the absence of any light?

I believe this is when TM first punched GZ. The little boy then went back around his building, as he describes, and hears the screaming when TM gets on top of GZ and assaults him. R E A L L Y ?
It must have been an especially relaxed, slow fight then, huh? The boy sees only one person on the ground. Trayvon was completely out of sight -- not anywhere near poor knocked-down George.

Was Trayvon patiently waiting at the neighbor's condo for George to recover enough so Trayvon could leisurely walk back over to the prone-pistol-packer and pounce on him?

Clearly Matt Guttman did not steer him in any way, shape or form, he said, without an ounce of provocation, "red". The kid's mother also said she put LE off for three days (I'm assuming so she could obtain legal representation), before she allowed them to interview her son. She's put her 13 year old son's first, middle, and last name out to the public - why? To what end?? Why is she going on Al Shaprton's show to tell her son's story? Of course he was interviewed and likely the night it happened. When the document dump happens, we'll see agendas, IMO.
bbm

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps she was sick and tired of the reported racism and corruption of the SPD and was outraged that an unarmed, innocent Black boy was laying in a coffin while his killer was free as a bird -- not arrested or even drug tested at the SPD the night of the murder.

Perhaps she was interested in seeing justice, for a change. Do you think for one minute that George Zimmerman would have been arrested without the active public outrage of Crump, Jackson, Sharpton and friends?

Even George and his good buddy Joe Oliver thought the *problem* would blow-over before the civil rights guys became involved.

Yes, we will see the agendas. We'll also see some really big lies exposed.


His mother wasn't there.His mother WAS there during the interview when the boy said it was too dark to see colors. The investigator insisted the boy define a color.

Since the investigator was an intimidating, scary authority figure, apparently the frightened boy DID come up with the color the investigator preferred.

:waitasec: I thought it was too dark to see colors? Yup, that's what the boy originally said. See what I mean about how UNRELIABLE witness testimony is -- especially when relying on a frightened, confused child?

Unfortunately I think this is the exact reaction Crump and Co. were shooting or with the mother and her interviews.I don't think the boy's statement makes a hill-of-beans difference. Just like I don't think John's statement will make a difference.

The timeline - phone records - provable LIES - plus forensics will MAKE this murder case.

IMO, the prosecution has the faultiest eyewitness with their "shadows running" in a direction Gilbreath was not certain of. Seems a bit like reaching to me.Again, IMO, the witnesses are not THE case. Neither is O'mara's Bond Hearing fishing exhibition.

Their first statements to police are all that will count anyway, not the media circus. So, we will see come dump time. JMOThe first statements will NOT be the ones to count if AC determines the witness statements were intimidated and coerced.

But I agree. The document dump will indeed be illuminating!

In my opinion, or course

cityslick
05-07-2012, 08:57 AM
I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo

How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.

LambChop
05-07-2012, 09:12 AM
How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.

I made no reference to what the funeral diector has said. I stated that if GZ injuries were caused by TM, TM should have had a large amount of blood on his hands and some injuries. We haven't seen the ME's report yet. I was not stating it as a fact. What I was saying was in order for GZ's story to prove he was beated TM's body would have sustained some type of blood evidence that would show he was beating on GZ. jmo

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 09:31 AM
I wasn't aware that we could use our own edited version of MSM videos, nice. My question would be, if it's TM screaming, why? He's on top of GZ and the screaming goes off and on for over 45 seconds.

That and the fact that no one said his mouth was covered the entire 45 - 60 seconds they were wrestling around on the ground, they were moving. It stands to reason he could have moved his head free off and on.

Mary Cutcher's, by the way, said she didn't hear screaming, that she heard moaning and then a gun shot - maybe that's when he was covering his mouth and nose? JMO

BBBM

Was this before or after GZ's head was repeatedly bashed against the cement nearly resulting in him being a vegetable for the rest of his life?

GrandmaTo4
05-07-2012, 09:40 AM
How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.

Isn't that sort of what we are all doing with ALL the supposed facts and rumors we think we have learned?

The true facts are, we have very few true facts. The document dump will be a welcomed frustration reducer.

Though we do not have any facts from the autopsy report, I would think the Funeral Director is experienced enough to know the telltale signs of a fist fight -- scratched and bruised knuckles and hands, especially.

Did he have a reason to lie when he said there were no signs of a fight on Trayvon's body, especially on his hands? Personally, I don't think so. He knew for certain the autopsy report would be out eventually. Why be labeled as a liar in the near future? I believe he's truthful with the extent of his knowledge.

The autopsy report will reveal more details which the Funeral Director couldn't possibly know. I just hope the ME isn't big buddies with the SPD. I trust no one fully who officially has anything to do with this horrible tragedy. It's a disheartening and sad fact.

LiveLaughLuv
05-07-2012, 09:57 AM
GZ provoked this entire 'assault', he didn't say there was a fight, did he but he surely wants LE to believe he was in a life or death situation even though he had a loaded weapon...I believe being a criminal justice major, he knew the right words to utter to have this all go away...but he didn't count on a few things..

Did he not realize his entire converstation was being recorded?
He wasn't aware that TM was on the phone and informed the person on the other end, just how fearful he was of this man following him...which is why I believe that was TM screams for help...he had a gun held to his chest...

The autopsy will hold a treasure trove of information...which I believe the SP had to come to her conclusion of a 2nd degree murder took place this fateful night..the trajectory of that bullet will be the first clue, injuries to TM's hands, if any...

Most are also forgetting, TM could be the one to use the SYG defense, for there's enough evidence to show it was GZ who provoked this entire scenario, he disregarded the do not follow the person..was in pursuit of a 'criminal' and his excited utterances, these A&&holes always get away and the 'phucking punks'....show his mentality at that time...:maddening:

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Not caught up, so hopefully this has not yet been posted. This is an excellent article:

Here is small portion. I would recommend everyone read it.



So, for example, one of these so-called experts used a technique called "biometric voice analysis" to compare Zimmerman's voice, recorded when he was calmly speaking to police dispatchers shortly before the shooting, and the screaming voice on the 911 tape. This expert found a 48 percent match between the voices, concluding "with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman." First off, what is biometric voice analysis? Is it similar or different from voice identification through voice spectrography, commonly called a "voiceprint," which has been studied for years but which most courts have not admitted into evidence because it lacks scientific reliability and acceptability. Another so-called expert gave the media his "strong opinion" that the voice was Trayvon Martin's "without a doubt." What was the basis for this expert's opinion? "The tone of the voice is a giveaway," he said. "That's a young man's voice." This from an expert?

Some of the opinions by voice experts raise similar concerns. For example, whereas fingerprint and DNA evidence have unique and distinguishable characteristics, there does not appear to be any scientific basis for claiming, as one of the above voice experts did, that each individual's voice is unique. And anyway, there are so many marked differences that may occur among various groups of talkers that giving an opinion "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty" is blatantly misleading. Even using terms like "probable" or "inconclusive" would be problematic, but a much more accurate opinion. Also, comparing a speaker's voice in a calm state and an emotional state, as one of the voice experts did, makes any informed comparison even more hazardous. Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes.
If George Zimmerman is brought to trial, the voice of the person screaming probably will be a major issue. There likely will be contradictory proof of whose voice it is. Such proof can readily be admitted from persons who are familiar with that person's voice. But such proof should not be admitted based on the opinion of a forensics expert. It's just not reliable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.html

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 10:20 AM
GZ provoked this entire 'assault', he didn't say there was a fight, did he but he surely wants LE to believe he was in a life or death situation even though he had a loaded weapon...I believe being a criminal justice major, he knew the right words to utter to have this all go away...but he didn't count on a few things..

Did he not realize his entire converstation was being recorded?
He wasn't aware that TM was on the phone and informed the person on the other end, just how fearful he was of this man following him...which is why I believe that was TM screams for help...he had a gun held to his chest...

The autopsy will hold a treasure trove of information...which I believe the SP had to come to her conclusion of a 2nd degree murder took place this fateful night..the trajectory of that bullet will be the first clue, injuries to TM's hands, if any...

Most are also forgetting, TM could be the one to use the SYG defense, for there's enough evidence to show it was GZ who provoked this entire scenario, he disregarded the do not follow the person..was in pursuit of a 'criminal' and his excited utterances, these A&&holes always get away and the 'phucking punks'....show his mentality at that time...:maddening:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

This argument is beating a dead hypothetical and is seen thrown about on nearly a daily basis, but if someone following you is reason to believe that the bolded applies then the next time I go to the mall and someone follows me around the corner I'm just going to take out my pistol and start firing. I believe you are meaning to say he had the right to defend himself, but then you would still need to argue that Zimmerman confronted him and not the other way around.

LiveLaughLuv
05-07-2012, 10:31 AM
This argument is beating a dead hypothetical and is seen thrown about on nearly a daily basis, but if someone following you is reason to believe that the bolded applies then the next time I go to the mall and someone follows me around the corner I'm just going to take out my pistol and start firing. I believe you are meaning to say he had the right to defend himself, but then you would still need to argue that Zimmerman confronted him and not the other way around.

BBM

Yes, I did mean TM had a right to self defense...

GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, so in his not doing that, he provoked this entire situation...he has no right to ask a stranger what they are doing there, is my belief..He's not LE, didn't ID himself first to TM, the easiest way to avoid this confrontation was to stay in his vehicle and let LE handle it. He did his civic duty and called in a suspicion but I believe he took it too far, due to his mentality..

I can't get away from GZ's mentality, it's the driving force behind his actions...

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 10:42 AM
BBM

Yes, I did mean TM had a right to self defense...

GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, so in his not doing that, he provoked this entire situation...he has no right to ask a stranger what they are doing there, is my belief..He's not LE, didn't ID himself first to TM, the easiest way to avoid this confrontation was to stay in his vehicle and let LE handle it. He did his civic duty and called in a suspicion but I believe he took it too far, due to his mentality..

I can't get away from GZ's mentality, it's the driving force behind his actions...

You can "should've" this to death, and so can everyone else. Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence.

Are you a licensed psychoanalyst by chance?

rossva
05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
Just curious, how many bashes of the head against cement does it take to turn one into a vegetable? I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk that one more bash might do it.


BBBM

Was this before or after GZ's head was repeatedly bashed against the cement nearly resulting in him being a vegetable for the rest of his life?

FULTON
05-07-2012, 10:48 AM
I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo

I believe the cries were rage from Tm as he pounded GZ head to the ground and was attacking him.

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 10:51 AM
Just curious, how many bashes of the head against cement does it take to turn one into a vegetable? I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk that one more bash might do it.

IDK. I guess you'd have to ask RZjr.

I'd suggest it would take more than the superficial wound shown in the police video that didn't require so much as a simple band aid. The same wound that EMTs didn't feel it necessary to be transferred to a hospital and that GZ, himself, didn't ask to be taken to a hospital.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
IDK. I guess you'd have to ask RZjr.

I'd suggest it would take more than the superficial wound shown in the police video that didn't require so much as a simple band aid. The same wound that EMTs didn't feel it necessary to be transferred to a hospital and that GZ, himself, didn't ask to be taken to a hospital.

If the individual is coherent the EMTs can not force them to go to the hospital. However, Mr. Zimmerman did end up at the hospital at some point in time, as Mr. O'Mara's questioning in the bond hearing shows that medical records are available as proof to such.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 11:00 AM
Is there any link out there with a recording of TMs voice? Maybe a voicemail someone would have posted? Anything so we can actually hear TMs voice?

Just curious.

LiveLaughLuv
05-07-2012, 11:01 AM
You can "should've" this to death, and so can everyone else. Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence.

Are you a licensed psychoanalyst by chance?

Who said TM was lost and needed to ask for directions?

There is so much disinformation I fear this case becoming another casey anthony...difficult to sift the lies from the truth...

and no one has a right to ask me anthing I need to respond to other than LE..freedom of speech has it's time and place..if someone is following me that I become fearful, they would not get an answer out of me..I just don't understand that logic..

Who the hell is Geroge Zimmerman that anyone has to answser to HIM!

LiveLaughLuv
05-07-2012, 11:02 AM
If the individual is coherent the EMTs can not force them to go to the hospital. However, Mr. Zimmerman did end up at the hospital at some point in time, as Mr. O'Mara's questioning in the bond hearing shows that medical records are available as proof to such.

Then they can't be that hurt!

If like his brother states, he was one step away from wearing diapers, I'd expect him to take that ambulance ASAP...not go into an interrogation for 5 hours and then cry he need stitches or a broken nose..it's too embellished to be believed...

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 11:03 AM
If the individual is coherent the EMTs can not force them to go to the hospital. However, Mr. Zimmerman did end up at the hospital at some point in time, as Mr. O'Mara's questioning in the bond hearing shows that medical records are available as proof to such.

Yes. He waved the alleged records around in the air as he did his questioning, IIRC.

I wonder why he's dragging his feet on allowing those records to become public. Oh yeah... it's his deep concern for the witness' protection. That's it.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Who said TM was lost and needed to ask for directions?

I'm sorry, I wasn't saying YOU were stating this. Many people have. People have come to their own conclusion of things based on their own beliefs. For example, one person on the GZLC facebook page stated that Mr. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and "cocked his weapon," which simply isn't possible with a double-action trigger. Someone else stated that he had a "Tec 9," and insisted it was an assault weapon (it's a Kel-Tec PF-9, not a Tec 9). The things people say to justify their own means of saying someone is guilty without a trial is saddening.

There is so much disinformation I fear this case becoming another casey anthony...difficult to sift the lies from the truth...

Even though right now my stance is that Zimmerman is innocent, I agree with this 100% I do not read/watch the media because of this case and will not do so until this case is done with.

and no one has a right to ask me anthing I need to respond to other than LE..freedom of speech has it's time and place..if someone is following me that I become fearful, they would not get an answer out of me..I just don't understand that logic..

Who the hell is Geroge Zimmerman that anyone has to answser to HIM!

Everyone has the right to ask you anything they feel like asking. That is the 1st Amendment. As I stated, you also have the right to ignore their inquiry.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 11:15 AM
COULD he have that mentality? Sure. Could he also have the mentality that he is above the law, that his word is golden and that whatever he believes is right for him trumps all others? Sure.

I have seen the calls that he had placed before. I read the transcripts from the dispatchers and I can tell you that a good number of them were for open garage doors. No one breaking in, no one casing the joint, just open garage doors. There were also a couple of Zimmerman following a car, a motorcylce, and a guy on a bike. Zimmerman was in his vehicle at the time following and giving the dispatcher a play by play as to where the "suspect" was at the time.

MOO

Just as I suspect he was doing this time also.

LynnM
05-07-2012, 11:22 AM
You can "should've" this to death, and so can everyone else. Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence.

Are you a licensed psychoanalyst by chance?

So now 17 year olds need to justify their presence to strangers that are following them just in case they are not perverts or people who want to hurt them but rather armed neighborhood volunteers? It never occurred to me to stop and chat with the man who got out of his car and ran after me when I was that age and walking home from the store. People who have a legitimate purpose for following someone generally say what it is. "Hey, you dropped something." "Hi, I wanted to introduce myself, I'm your new neighbor." Or even (as I did to a man walking around my neighbor's house when she was on vacation) "Sir, can I help you?"

I don't know about the other poster but I have a Ph.D. in sociology with a specialization in criminology and a bachelor's in psychology and years of experience with programming for offenders if that means anything.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 11:24 AM
I've seen that too Ranch, but even the prosecutor stated he estimated GZ stopped following TM about a minute prior to the phone call ending. TM's g/f said TM told her he lost GZ, and GZ states on the 911 call he didn't know where he was. That would mean GZ disconnected the call and ran like the dickens, found the hiding TM, and cornered him --shall we add here "with the help of an accomplice" that some have speculated on as well?

The only thing that makes sense is TM coming out of nowhere and confronting GZ. Funny how it seems so simple to some, like me, and so difficult to countless others, lol.

Especially with so much time elapsing between when he ran, back toward the beginning of the call, and the actual shooting. Just what was TM doing for those several minutes when it would have taken less than a minute to simply go home after he "lost" GZ.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
I wasn't aware that we could use our own edited version of MSM videos, nice. My question would be, if it's TM screaming, why? He's on top of GZ and the screaming goes off and on for over 45 seconds.

That and the fact that no one said his mouth was covered the entire 45 - 60 seconds they were wrestling around on the ground, they were moving. It stands to reason he could have moved his head free off and on.

Mary Cutcher's, by the way, said she didn't hear screaming, that she heard moaning and then a gun shot - maybe that's when he was covering his mouth and nose? JMO

Good observation.

Gaia713
05-07-2012, 11:44 AM
As a former 911 dispatcher myself, I can tell you that most likely whatever he called in about previous to the 26th of February is nothing out of the ordinary for a typical 911 call. I haven't heard/read about those calls so I can't say factually either way. However, it is somewhat of a red herring. His previous 911 calls have no bearing on the night in question, or the question in question.

The question was: COULD he have the mentality that he does not want to use his weapon unless it was 100% necessary. I'm not asking you to state factually because we're supposedly in a hypothetical as it is. COULD he have this mentality?Considering that he was majoring in Criminal Justice, I imagine he has a love affair with his gun. AND the paranoia of a cop wannabe. I think he watching itching to use that gun on whomever he decided was a burglar (i.e., any young, black man). He had training on how to use the gun. I can tell you from experience that trained cops leave their weapons in the holster unless needed. I don't think that Zimmerman had that discipline.

I just finished a class in forensics with a bunch of Criminal Justice majors and EVERYONE of them "love" their guns and use them at almost any opportunity they can.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 11:44 AM
I believe the cries were rage from Tm as he pounded GZ head to the ground and was attacking him.

While I don't agree, that is an interesting analysis.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 11:46 AM
So now 17 year olds need to justify their presence to strangers that are following them just in case they are not perverts or people who want to hurt them but rather armed neighborhood volunteers? It never occurred to me to stop and chat with the man who got out of his car and ran after me when I was that age and walking home from the store. People who have a legitimate purpose for following someone generally say what it is. "Hey, you dropped something." "Hi, I wanted to introduce myself, I'm your new neighbor." Or even (as I did to a man walking around my neighbor's house when she was on vacation) "Sir, can I help you?"

I don't know about the other poster but I have a Ph.D. in sociology with a specialization in criminology and a bachelor's in psychology and years of experience with programming for offenders if that means anything.

I believe I stated twice that you can ignore someone when they ask you a question. I'm not sure how you go from "you can ignore it" to "they have to justify themselves."

I haven't seen anyone but State of Florida supporters say anything about running, but to be honest I haven't paid any attention to the media in a while. I prefer the facts of the case.

I would ask the person why they're following me. It may be that they're choking on something and can not get my attention vocally. It may be that THEY are lost. It may be that they're suspicious of ME and just want to know what I'm doing. There isn't a crime in any of it.

I bet you wouldn't make a rush judgement to say one person was "out for blood" or "on the hunt," etc based on a few words recorded via a non-emergency call either. The reason I asked the question was due to the determination of the state of mind Mr. Zimmerman was in. Can you tell me what state of mind he was in? I'd find it hard to believe that without talking to Mr. Zimmerman about the situation you would offer any opinion, but as I've stated before, this case and the people around it have surprised me.

Gaia713
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
I don't buy that for a second. If they could match those screams to Trayvon why wouldn't he say so? They never attempted to match the sceams to Trayvon. They DID
however say that it was NOT Zimmerman. Given that, who else was out there in a situation where help was needed? If it wasn't George, was it the little old lady who lived down the street?

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Considering that he was majoring in Criminal Justice, I imagine he has a love affair with his gun. AND the paranoia of a cop wannabe. I think he watching itching to use that gun on whomever he decided was a burglar (i.e., any young, black man). He had training on how to use the gun. I can tell you from experience that trained cops leave their weapons in the holster unless needed. I don't think that Zimmerman had that discipline.

I just finished a class in forensics with a bunch of Criminal Justice majors and EVERYONE of them "love" their guns and use them at almost any opportunity they can.

Actually he wanted to be a magistrate or a judge, not a cop. As per his father's testimony in the bond hearing.

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 11:48 AM
I'm sorry, I wasn't saying YOU were stating this. Many people have. People have come to their own conclusion of things based on their own beliefs. For example, one person on the GZLC facebook page stated that Mr. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and "cocked his weapon," which simply isn't possible with a double-action trigger. Someone else stated that he had a "Tec 9," and insisted it was an assault weapon (it's a Kel-Tec PF-9, not a Tec 9). The things people say to justify their own means of saying someone is guilty without a trial is saddening.


<Respectfully snipped>

I know very little about weapons but don't you have to cock the gun to chamber the first bullet with this gun?

As a matter of fact, one of our posters made a video demonstrating the weapon.

PF9 - YouTube

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #23

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 11:52 AM
<Respectfully snipped>

I know very little about weapons but don't you have to cock the gun to chamber the first bullet with this gun?

As a matter of fact, one of our posters made a video demonstrating the weapon.

PF9 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7R8YBayEzs&feature=player_embedded)

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #23 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7781100&postcount=14)

Chambering a round is not the same as cocking. The weapon can not be cocked manually.

"Double-action

A double-action, also known as double action only (DAO) to prevent confusion with DA/SA designs, is similar to a DA revolver trigger mechanism. The trigger both cocks and releases the hammer." - Wikipedia.

All cocking a weapon does is puts the hammer in a position where it is ready to strike the bullet.

Donjeta
05-07-2012, 11:56 AM
I didn't know that there is a law stating that if you are lost you must ask directions from your friendly neighborhood watch volunteer who is pursuing you with a gun. Which statute is this?

Gaia713
05-07-2012, 11:58 AM
I've got to say that I agree with you. After reading GZ's brother's statement about GZ choking on copious amounts of blood and having difficulty breathing and then listening to the frantic screams for help, I just cannot put GZ as the one doing the screaming, how on earth could he scream that loud while choking on blood and having difficulty with breathing. The person screaming doesn't appear to have a choking or breathing problem. Isn't it interesting how Zimmerman's injuries keep getting worse with every new version that comes from the Zimmerman propaganda network (friends and family). Next think is that he has a subdural hematoma or a cracked skull. Scalp wounds bleed a great deal. He had trickles of blood on his head. Yes, he could have refused medical assistance from EMT's but he accepted the first aid. All of his "injuries" seem to have needed assistance long after their infliction. And, there is a good chance that his skull could have been cracked from "bashing" it on the sidewalk. What I don't understand is how he could have pulled out his gun while he was being so viciously attacked. Surely this hands would have been defending himself. Every new tidbit of information that comes out about him makes him look worse and worse imo
I have a child who was in a fight and he was hurt falling on the concrete. He had my car and drove home - my front seat was soaked in blood and he was still bleeding profusely when I drove him to the hospital. He require 10 staples in his head. What showed on Zimmerman in the police photo were scratches, not serious cuts.

If his injuries were so bad, the EMTs could have Baker Acted him.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 12:02 PM
I didn't know that there is a law stating that if you are lost you must ask directions from your friendly neighborhood watch volunteer who is pursuing you with a gun. Which statute is this?

I didn't know anyone stated there was such a law, are you being sarcastic? If so, I offer you the reverse; I didn't know that there is a law stating you can't watch someone you think is suspicious.

Gaia713
05-07-2012, 12:08 PM
There wasn't just the one eyewitness statement though...Matt Guttman interviews second eyewitness.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related Interesting because a test was done on students getting a Masters in Sociology where, on a bus a white man was seated and a black man was standing and pointing a finger. Even KNOWING this was a test, the majority saw a black man pointing a gun at a seated white man. The point is that Martin was merely walking while black and that he was being followed by a white man. When did "walking while black" become a crime?

Donjeta
05-07-2012, 12:09 PM
I didn't know anyone stated there was such a law, are you being sarcastic? If so, I offer you the reverse; I didn't know that there is a law stating you can't watch someone you think is suspicious.

So what are you basing your opinion on then? That Mr. Martin should have asked for directions from a clearly hostile individual?

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Chambering a round is not the same as cocking. The weapon can not be cocked manually.



All cocking a weapon does is puts the hammer in a position where it is ready to strike the bullet.

Well, as I said, I know very little about weapons. Sounds like semantics to me. Cocking the gun or chambering a bullet, either way it sure sounds like he intended to use that weapon that evening.

JMO

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 12:14 PM
Well, as I said, I know very little about weapons. Sounds like semantics to me. Cocking the gun or chambering a bullet, either way it sure sounds like he intended to use that weapon that evening.

JMO

Yeah, that was pretty much my point. The person who stated that had no clue anything about the weapon yet they were claiming the clicks was from cocking it. It simply doesn't make sense.

Typically when you carry you have a round in the chamber. Otherwise you would have to chamber a round before the weapon can be used to save your own life, or someone else's. That kind of nullifies the reason for carrying. Imagine for a moment someone who carries a revolver. Don't you agree it'd be silly if they didn't have a round ready to go? I could see the discussion being played out in a comedy movie....

- Carrier: "Excuse me sir, I have to load my weapon so I can shoot you and save my own life. Give me about 10 seconds please."
*perp waits*
- Perpetrator: "... was I just trolled?"

Gaia713
05-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Actually he wanted to be a magistrate or a judge, not a cop. As per his father's testimony in the bond hearing. Yeah, and that's why he didn't even bother to finish up his AA degree. Seems to me that judges come from lawyers, not junior college attendees. More propaganda from the Zimmerman family and friends. At the rate he was completing his education, he'd be dead before he even finished law school. There's nothing to indicate that he was on an educational path to law. Just statements from his family.

LynnM
05-07-2012, 12:35 PM
Actually he wanted to be a magistrate or a judge, not a cop. As per his father's testimony in the bond hearing.

In his December 2008 application to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Citizens Law Enforcement Academy, he wrote that "I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd (sic) as I hope to one day become one."

http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-assaulting-officer-charges-dropped

I find it interesting that in describing the 2005 incident, Zimmerman claims to have been assaulted by the undercover officer first and that the officer never identified himself to him. He also does not mention entering the first offender's diversion program. Saying the charges were first reduced and dropped altogether makes it sound like a prosecutor saw no reason to prosecute him.

LynnM
05-07-2012, 01:12 PM
I believe I stated twice that you can ignore someone when they ask you a question. I'm not sure how you go from "you can ignore it" to "they have to justify themselves."

I haven't seen anyone but State of Florida supporters say anything about running, but to be honest I haven't paid any attention to the media in a while. I prefer the facts of the case.

I would ask the person why they're following me. It may be that they're choking on something and can not get my attention vocally. It may be that THEY are lost. It may be that they're suspicious of ME and just want to know what I'm doing. There isn't a crime in any of it.

I bet you wouldn't make a rush judgement to say one person was "out for blood" or "on the hunt," etc based on a few words recorded via a non-emergency call either. The reason I asked the question was due to the determination of the state of mind Mr. Zimmerman was in. Can you tell me what state of mind he was in? I'd find it hard to believe that without talking to Mr. Zimmerman about the situation you would offer any opinion, but as I've stated before, this case and the people around it have surprised me.

I got the justification part from your comment that "Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence."

I assume you were referring to Zimmerman's comment to the dispatcher that Trayvon was suspicious for walking along and looking all around and that telling the stranger following him that he was lost would have justified his presence or demeanor to Zimmerman and then he wouldn't have shot him.

As for running, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher that he was following Trayvon and I hear what sounds like huffing and puffing. At least that's what it sounds like when I am running.

I think Zimmerman's state of mind is evident from his own words. His saying that "These a**holes always get away" tells me that he had decided that Trayvon was a criminal like the others who had committed burglaries and not been apprehended. His utterance of "f-ing punk (or punks)" is indicative of anger towards Trayvon, the supposed criminal who was getting away. There's no need for psychoanalysis and statements made minutes prior to the shooting give a better indicator of his state of mind at the time than questioning later will.

Donjeta
05-07-2012, 01:17 PM
If someone thinks they've caught up with a bad guy, I'm not nearly sure that the telling them that one is lost would help. Someone could just think that they've caught up with a bad guy who lies about being lost because the bad guy can't very well state that he's looking for a suitable house to rob.

Anyway, about those cries for help...

iluvmua
05-07-2012, 01:19 PM
In his December 2008 application to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Citizens Law Enforcement Academy, he wrote that "I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd (sic) as I hope to one day become one."

http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-assaulting-officer-charges-dropped

I find it interesting that in describing the 2005 incident, Zimmerman claims to have been assaulted by the undercover officer first and that the officer never identified himself to him. He also does not mention entering the first offender's diversion program. Saying the charges were first reduced and dropped altogether makes it sound like a prosecutor saw no reason to prosecute him.

that's a three year difference. People can change.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 01:27 PM
I got the justification part from your comment that "Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence."

It's funny that you completely ignore this sentence and quote everything else.
You can "should've" this to death, and so can everyone else.
I believe that would show that my "should have" is merely an example.

I assume you were referring to Zimmerman's comment to the dispatcher that Trayvon was suspicious for walking along and looking all around and that telling the stranger following him that he was lost would have justified his presence or demeanor to Zimmerman and then he wouldn't have shot him.

As I've told many other folks all over the internet, and as a socio PhD I'm sure that you understand that being "suspicious" of someone will vary from person to person due to events that have happened in their lifetime. Something I find suspicious, such as a guy setting a bag down near a pile of boxes, you may not. This is because my life story is not the same as yours. Mine comes from a military background.


As for running, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher that he was following Trayvon and I hear what sounds like huffing and puffing. At least that's what it sounds like when I am running.

"Following" does not equate to "running," but it's irrelevant anyway.

I think Zimmerman's state of mind is evident from his own words. His saying that "These a**holes always get away" tells me that he had decided that Trayvon was a criminal like the others who had committed burglaries and not been apprehended. His utterance of "f-ing punk (or punks)" is indicative of anger towards Trayvon, the supposed criminal who was getting away. There's no need for psychoanalysis and statements made minutes prior to the shooting give a better indicator of his state of mind at the time than questioning later will.

Ok, we can agree that he may have profiled Mr. Martin as a criminal, does that mean he's out to kill? Due to the pluralization of the word "punk" I find it hard to believe that he's talking about an INDIVIDUAL specifically. I think a better analysis of the word would be that it refers to the earlier statement "these a...... always get away," thus the criminals in the area. Based on your lack of a "yes" I'm going to say that you wouldn't say he was "out for blood" or "on the hunt" based on his non-emergency phone call, thanks!

The word "punk" is shown to be plural based on a quick google search of "zimmerman said punk" without the quotes.

LynnM
05-07-2012, 01:33 PM
If someone thinks they've caught up with a bad guy, I'm not nearly sure that the telling them that one is lost would help. Someone could just think that they've caught up with a bad guy who lies about being lost because the bad guy can't very well state that he's looking for a suitable house to rob.

Anyway, about those cries for help...

It wouldn't surprise me if Zimmerman had called for help at some point. But I think that anguished wailing is Trayvon who had seen the gun and was in fear of his life.

I don't think witness accounts of who was yelling or hollering or whatever are going to be much help. It was dark and the natural assumption is that whoever one sees on the bottom of a scuffle is or was the person to cry out. Our minds try to make a coherent whole out of what we are seeing and that causes us to distort our memories of events.

Speaking of sociology experiments, I remember an experiment a sociology professor did when I was an undergraduate. We didn't know this was an experiment at the time of course. Another professor interrupted class and asked our prof if he had the $10 he had borrowed from him since he was heading out to lunch and needed the cash. Both men took out their wallets, money was given, and the men went on talking the whole time (Sorry to interrupt, etc.). When we were asked to write up what we had seen and heard we got what we had heard correct but no one correctly said what had actually happened, that the interrupting professor actually GAVE our professor a five dollar bill, he didn't get the $10 at all. All of us thought we saw our prof pay him back!

suzihawk
05-07-2012, 01:34 PM
that's a three year difference. People can change.

Yes, all indications are that he became an upstanding and productive member of society after assaulting a law enforcement officer and being involved in a domestic abuse case. If it just wasn't for that one little incident of profiling and shooting dead an innocent young black man. /s

BTW, weren't both he and his wife unemployed for some time prior to the shooting?

Donjeta
05-07-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm not following.
Why did he bring up the escaping a*****s, plural, in a phone call about an individual, specifically, if he wasn't intending to include aforementioned individual in the group?

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 01:45 PM
Yes, all indications are that he became an upstanding and productive member of society after assaulting a law enforcement officer and being involved in a domestic abuse case. If it just wasn't for that one little incident of profiling and shooting dead an innocent young black man. /s

BTW, weren't both he and his wife unemployed for some time prior to the shooting?

The story I read from Reuters called "Prelude to a Shooting," shows that he was an upstanding citizen even before then. My personal opinion is that he probably had some liquid courage and wanted to help his friend. I won't say whether or not the officer identified himself, but the state seems to think there was enough doubt to drop it.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 01:54 PM
Thought you weren't reading what the media has to say? Don't mean to be personal, but you have made this statement over and over again. The "Prelude to a Shooting" was a get to know GZ, IMO. Including little boy pictures..

JMO

I have stated a number of times that I stopped watching the media. No one has asked when that was. Even then, if someone points me to an article I -may- check it out. That in itself does not mean I'm blindly listening to what the media has stated. However, I must take a different stance on the "Prelude to a Shooting" article because it's evident that someone did investigative journalism, and based on my opinion of that I do tend to give it a bit more credibility than the typical "zomg look what <insert some other source> is saying about <insert .. whatever>" stories.

To put it shortly, if you have to quote another media outlet for your story, you are not doing your job as a source of news.

csziggy
05-07-2012, 02:12 PM
If the individual is coherent the EMTs can not force them to go to the hospital. However, Mr. Zimmerman did end up at the hospital at some point in time, as Mr. O'Mara's questioning in the bond hearing shows that medical records are available as proof to such.

Unless GZ's injuries were documented by the Sanford Fire Department EMT medical records and by photographs taken by the Sanford Police Department, it doesn't matter if he went to a doctor or hospital later. There would be no way to prove that his injuries happened during his altercation with TM - they could have happened later. And if SPD did NOT document GZ's injuries and they were real, then that shows a serious problem with SPD and their investigative branch.

Without official documentation, I could not be convinced that any injury seen by a doctor hours or days after the incident had not been created later to support GZ's claims of self defense.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Elley Mae
05-07-2012, 02:21 PM
Unless GZ's injuries were documented by the Sanford Fire Department EMT medical records and by photographs taken by the Sanford Police Department, it doesn't matter if he went to a doctor or hospital later. There would be no way to prove that his injuries happened during his altercation with TM - they could have happened later. And if SPD did NOT document GZ's injuries and they were real, then that shows a serious problem with SPD and their investigative branch.

Without official documentation, I could not be convinced that any injury seen by a doctor hours or days after the incident had not been created later to support GZ's claims of self defense.

IMO, JMO, etc.

I am trying to figure out how is it that the person using self-defense or SYG should have injuries. Do you have that information? Isn't that the whole purpose of the law?

csziggy
05-07-2012, 02:30 PM
The story I read from Reuters called "Prelude to a Shooting," shows that he was an upstanding citizen even before then. My personal opinion is that he probably had some liquid courage and wanted to help his friend. I won't say whether or not the officer identified himself, but the state seems to think there was enough doubt to drop it.

The charges were not dropped, they were reduced to a misdemeanor with pretrial diversion to an anger management course.

REGISTER OF ACTIONS
CASE NO. 2005-CF-009525-A-O
STATE OF FLORIDA VS. ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL §
§
Case Type: Criminal Felony
Date Filed: 07/18/2005
Location: Div 10
Judicial Officer: OKane, Julie H
Inmate Booking Number: 05200584
Uniform Case Number: 482005CF009525000AOX
PARTY INFORMATION
Lead Attorneys
Defendant ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
DOB: 10/05/1983
ZAHRA SHANAZ UMANSKY, Esquire Retained
407-228-3838(W)
Plaintiff STATE OF FLORIDA
CHARGE INFORMATION
Charges: ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL Statute Level Date
1. CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE 843.01 Third Degree - Felony 07/16/2005
2. BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER 784.07(2)(B) Third Degree - Felony 07/16/2005
EVENTS & ORDERS OF THE COURT
OTHER EVENTS AND HEARINGS
08/30/2005
Receipt of Original Papers
RECEIPT OF ORIGINAL PAPERS FILED TO 05-MM-10436
08/29/2005
Request for Administrative Transfer
REQUEST FOR ADMINISTRATIVE TRANSFER TO COUNTY COU

REGISTER OF ACTIONS
CASE NO. 2005-MM-010436-A-O
STATE OF FLORIDA VS. ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
§
Case Type: Misdemeanor
Date Filed: 07/18/2005
Location: Orlando
Judicial Officer: Miller, W Michael
Inmate Booking Number: 05200584
Uniform Case Number: 482005MM010436000AOX
PARTY INFORMATION
Lead Attorneys
Defendant ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
DOB: 10/05/1983
ZAHRA SHANAZ UMANSKY, Esquire Retained
407-228-3838(W)
Plaintiff STATE OF FLORIDA
CHARGE INFORMATION
Charges: ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL Statute Level Date
1. CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE 843.02 First Degree - Misd 07/14/2005
EVENTS & ORDERS OF THE COURT
OTHER EVENTS AND HEARINGS
07/28/2006
Nolle Prosequi
NOLLE PROSEQUI COUNT 001
06/15/2006
PTD Program Agreement for Supervision Extension
ORANGE CO. PTD AGGREEMENT FOR SUPERVISION EXT.
01/26/2006
Bond Discharged
CLOSED BOND DISCHARGED #61766193
01/12/2006
Approval for Participation in PTD
APPROVAL FOR PART.IN PTD
12/30/2005
Pre-Trial Deferment
PRE-TRIAL DEFERMENT FILED
http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

BBM

csziggy
05-07-2012, 02:36 PM
I am trying to figure out how is it that the person using self-defense or SYG should have injuries. Do you have that information? Isn't that the whole purpose of the law?

All I know is that GZ and his family and friends have claimed various levels of injury to GZ. Some enhanced still shots from videos and a cell photo photo have been used in the media to support those claims of GZ's injuries. Until I see officially documented evidence - medical records and photographs - from that night before GZ was released from police custody, I will not be certain of the severity of GZ's injuries, if any.

IMO, JMO, etc. This would be better discussed in the thread for GZ's injuries. We've gotten off-topic!

Karmady
05-07-2012, 02:48 PM
The charges were not dropped, they were reduced to a misdemeanor with pretrial diversion to an anger management course.




http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

BBM

You didn't bold the nolle prosequi part, but that's the critical part. The charges were dropped upon completion of the diversion. That's the whole point of a diversion. The record still shows up, but there is no conviction.

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 02:56 PM
Sorry I have to ask this again, but has anyone here actually heard TMs voice? Any examples we can link to? I am really interested in hearing the tone and pitch of his voice.

LynnM
05-07-2012, 02:57 PM
You didn't bold the nolle prosequi part, but that's the critical part. The charges were dropped upon completion of the diversion. That's the whole point of a diversion. The record still shows up, but there is no conviction.

Yes but the issue was whether the state 'had enough doubt to drop it.' They allowed GZ to eter the diversion program. They didn't doubt he was guilty.

Karmady
05-07-2012, 03:06 PM
The charges were not dropped, they were reduced to a misdemeanor with pretrial diversion to an anger management course.




http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

BBM

Yes but the issue was whether the state 'had enough doubt to drop it.' They allowed GZ to eter the diversion program. They didn't doubt he was guilty.

Respectfully, neither you nor I have any idea whether they doubted he was guilty of the crime charged. And George's defense, iirc, was one of the elements of the crime -- that LE did not identify himself as such and was undercover. The prosecutor may have been certain that the officer did not, in fact, identify himself. Particularly since the prosecutors' office would have been able to have direct access to the officer in question and would have known what he would say under oath. Or not, and just felt like it wasn't worth the time and expense to prosecute. However, as a practical matter, prosecutors determine whether or not to prosecute based on whether they think they can get a conviction. They're kind of like sports teams in that regard, unfortunately. imo They are big on statistics and the W-L record. And they do tend to prosecute crimes against LE. jmo

vlpate
05-07-2012, 04:39 PM
Respectfully, neither you nor I have any idea whether they doubted he was guilty of the crime charged. And George's defense, iirc, was one of the elements of the crime -- that LE did not identify himself as such and was undercover. The prosecutor may have been certain that the officer did not, in fact, identify himself. Particularly since the prosecutors' office would have been able to have direct access to the officer in question and would have known what he would say under oath. Or not, and just felt like it wasn't worth the time and expense to prosecute. However, as a practical matter, prosecutors determine whether or not to prosecute based on whether they think they can get a conviction. They're kind of like sports teams in that regard, unfortunately. imo They are big on statistics and the W-L record. And they do tend to prosecute crimes against LE. jmo

wow, these threads get off-topic quick, I constantly have to look at the sign on the door to remember where I am. Regardless of what his record was, and the Judge felt it was insignificant, it had absolutely nothing to do with the cried for help.

The prosecution took SF's word for the cries being her son's because the tests done by the so-called experts and the FBI gave no insight and the tests were not part of the probable cause document. At the end of the day, I can't figure out how it matters anyway, if TM was atop GZ, he was denying him his right to retreat and regardless of who was screaming for help, that's what will matter, IMO.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm not certain if this has been mentioned, but according to Mr. Owen's website his voice comparisons are bunk.

Website: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/article1.html

Specifically:
III - THE METHOD OF VOICE IDENTIFICATION


The method by which a voice is identified is a multifaceted process requiring the use of both aural and visual senses. In the typical voice identification case the examiner is given several recordings; one or more recordings of the voice to be identified and one or more recorded voice samples of one or more suspects. It is from these recordings the examiner must make the determination about the identity of the unknown voice.


The first step is to evaluate the recording of the unknown voice, checking to make sure the recording has a sufficient amount of speech with which to work and that the quality of the recording is of sufficient clarity in the frequency range required for analysis. The volume of the recorded voice signal must be significantly higher than that of the environmental noise. The greater the number of obscuring events, such as noise, music, and other speakers, the longer the sample of speech must be. Some examiners report that they reject as many as sixty percent of the cases submitted to them with one of the main reasons for rejection being the poor quality of the recording of the unknown voice.
<snip - read all of the information, please>


According to his very first step he could not make such an analysis of these screams. There wasn't any speech, the quality was via telephone (which alone poses many hazards to higher frequencies*), under the speaking of the person on the phone/dispatcher, from an unknown distance. Given that he states specifically that the more "obscuring events" the longer the speech has to be, and the fact that there is no speech.. how can he make any determination at all? There's more, that's just the first step.


Edit below:
I just wanted to make it clear that I'm specifically talking about Mr. Owens' analysis of the screams. I know the special prosecutor probably recorded Mr. Zimmerman in the walkthrough when they had him yell a number of times. In Mr. Owens' analysis he states that he compared the screams to the voice (Mr. Zimmerman's) heard in the 911 call.

* - I tried to find info on this to link, but it seems as if the digital age has fixed this in modern telephone systems and in turn made it a bit more difficult to find info on it. I would place a wager that because the 911 telephone system has some redundancy systems in place it hasn't been updated to digital lines. If you remember "back in the good ol' days" when you were on the phone, the voice of the person you were speaking to would sound different than it does when you're speaking in person. This is because the telephone back then filtered out frequencies above a certain point.

csziggy
05-07-2012, 06:58 PM
I'm not certain if this has been mentioned, but according to Mr. Owen's website his voice comparisons are bunk.

Website: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/article1.html

Specifically:


According to his very first step he could not make such an analysis of these screams. There wasn't any speech, the quality was via telephone (which alone poses many hazards to higher frequencies), under the speaking of the person on the phone/dispatcher, from an unknown distance. Given that he states specifically that the more "obscuring events" the longer the speech has to be, and the fact that there is no speech.. how can he make any determination at all? There's more, that's just the first step.

The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics (http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=display&ref=splash), is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 07:07 PM
The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics (http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=display&ref=splash), is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

Which is just a highly "dumbed down" version of CoolEdit, in my opinion based upon the tech info for the software found here: http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/docs/evbadditionalinfo.pdf

Looking over that, there are 3 methods used by the software:

Spectral-Formant Method provides high reliability of identification results and has the following
advantages:
• Requires just as little as 16 seconds length of speech sample.
...


Pitch Statistics Analysis Method.
...
• Requires the minimum of 10 seconds length of speech sample (which is even less than the Spectral-Formant method).
...


Gaussian Mixture Models based Method (GMM).
...
• High speed of the speaker search.
• Ideal for clear recordings with low noise level.
• Ideal for long recordings.
...


I think it's safe to say that not only does Mr. Owens' own words contradict his analysis, but the documentation from the software he uses says he shouldn't have even tried.

Edit:
This is pure speculation from me, but I'm starting to wonder if Mr. Owen had some kind of deal with the developers of the software. It's strangely odd that he made these claims, which we can clearly see that he shouldn't have even by his own words, right after a new version of the software came out. Free nation-wide commercial on multiple networks and outlets?

Reader
05-07-2012, 08:41 PM
I have stated a number of times that I stopped watching the media. No one has asked when that was. Even then, if someone points me to an article I -may- check it out. That in itself does not mean I'm blindly listening to what the media has stated. However, I must take a different stance on the "Prelude to a Shooting" article because it's evident that someone did investigative journalism, and based on my opinion of that I do tend to give it a bit more credibility than the typical "zomg look what <insert some other source> is saying about <insert .. whatever>" stories.

To put it shortly, if you have to quote another media outlet for your story, you are not doing your job as a source of news.

Most of us here have already read that article also and noticed the writer did not quote ANY sources...I don't call that good journalism and it was questioned at the time by several posters here. The real purpose seemed to be to show us GZ's little boy pictures which has nothing to do with this case or his credibility about his actions in killing Trayvon.

Reader
05-07-2012, 08:49 PM
The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics (http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=display&ref=splash), is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

Thanks!

I guess we'll have to wait for the trial to see if the AG/prosecutor offers any professional analysis of the voices/screams. It would be good to have it verified that it was Trayvon screaming but I tend to agree with some other posters who have said that the judge or jury will not even need that. They can tell by listening to the tape themselves that it is Trayvon and his mother's testimony will be very credible. I remember she got so upset listening to it that she screamed and ran from the room crying. I think they will believe her.

Karmady
05-07-2012, 09:12 PM
Just in case anyone's interested. Here is Mr. Owen's CV. Also, he has testified or been identified as an expert in at least 12 reported decisions over the past decade or so on voice issues. Which means, imo, he's probably testified or issued a report in about 3 or 4 times that many cases. I can't link to the cases b/c they're from a subscription site, so take it fwiw.

He also is "approved" by a lot of media, which is listed in his CV.

www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf

ILikeToBendPages
05-07-2012, 09:58 PM
I also think George went down the street and the cut through and TM saw him pop back up in front of him.

I think it's very likely George had the gun in his waistband (may of been under the jacket and he moved it to displayed it) and he let it be known he had a gun. That was when TM saw the gun and started fighting for his life. Trayvon was standing his ground trying to save his life.

George's brother talks about how George said it was sad that no one came to help him , that despite the screams no one had come to help. He also said the screams could of been avoided that night. Several neighbor's had heard and seen something going on and did call for help. And yes the screams could of been avoided by George following the dispatchers directive and not follow a person that look to be on drugs and up to no good and was circling his truck.

I don't understand George going down the sidewalk to the next street to get an address. He lived in that sub-division for three years and "patrolled" it on his "watch", I bet he knows just about all the house numbers on those streets. I think the going to get an address story gave George more time in his version so he could be the victim that got surprised from behind. I mean you would want to save face wouldn't you? He had to of been attacked from behind. A sucker punch. It's wasn't his fault. He was only doing his job.

What was George planning to do once he confronted Trayvon? Was he just going to "question" TM and let him go?

Was he going to hold at gun point him till the police got there and took over?

If I were sitting was in my truck and on the phone with LE, and someone was circling me, I'd drive off to a safe distance and wait for the police to arrive. He still had the advantage and would be in control, TM was no threat.

Wouldn't you? Are you just going to sit there talking on the phone if you're alarmed by this person and wait for LE?

Phoenixfla
05-07-2012, 10:00 PM
Which is just a highly "dumbed down" version of CoolEdit, in my opinion based upon the tech info for the software found here: http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/docs/evbadditionalinfo.pdf

Looking over that, there are 3 methods used by the software:







I think it's safe to say that not only does Mr. Owens' own words contradict his analysis, but the documentation from the software he uses says he shouldn't have even tried.

Edit:
This is pure speculation from me, but I'm starting to wonder if Mr. Owen had some kind of deal with the developers of the software. It's strangely odd that he made these claims, which we can clearly see that he shouldn't have even by his own words, right after a new version of the software came out. Free nation-wide commercial on multiple networks and outlets?

Nice work locating that. Nothing about comparing a scream to normal speech either I imagine.

I'm thinking that Mr. Owens wishes he had not gotten involved in the first place. This can't be a good career move. IMO

Rubys
05-07-2012, 10:02 PM
I have listened to the 911 call many times. It does certainly seem as though the screaming stops as soon as the shot is fired. While it is obvious why TM would stop screaming, why would GZ? If he were the screamer I don't think he would stop screaming as soon as he fired the shot. He wouldn't know immediately that TM was no longer a threat. It sounds as though the shot actually stops a scream so I think the person screaming was the person shot TM.

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 10:14 PM
Nice work locating that. Nothing about comparing a scream to normal speech either I imagine.

I'm thinking that Mr. Owens wishes he had not gotten involved in the first place. This can't be a good career move. IMO

There was one that did speak of comparing tones of voice with emotions, I believe it was the second one listed. If it wasn't the second it was the first, so either way a number of seconds worth of screaming would need to be heard.

Edit: It was the 2nd, the pitch method.

Reader
05-07-2012, 10:24 PM
I have listened to the 911 call many times. It does certainly seem as though the screaming stops as soon as the shot is fired. While it is obvious why TM would stop screaming, why would GZ? If he were the screamer I don't think he would stop screaming as soon as he fired the shot. He wouldn't know immediately that TM was no longer a threat. It sounds as though the shot actually stops a scream so I think the person screaming was the person shot TM.

I agree....and welcome to WS!

Karmady
05-07-2012, 10:26 PM
And, holy toledo...Mr. Owen's rates :::yikes:::

http://www.owlinvestigations.com/rates.html

csziggy
05-07-2012, 10:34 PM
Thanks!

I guess we'll have to wait for the trial to see if the AG/prosecutor offers any professional analysis of the voices/screams. It would be good to have it verified that it was Trayvon screaming but I tend to agree with some other posters who have said that the judge or jury will not even need that. They can tell by listening to the tape themselves that it is Trayvon and his mother's testimony will be very credible. I remember she got so upset listening to it that she screamed and ran from the room crying. I think they will believe her.

I doubt AC or her assistant prosecutor (Bernie?) will use the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel. The prosecution will probably use the FBI tests if they show any useful information or simply rely on Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton to identify their son's voice.

Of course, the defense will trot out their experts and the Robert Zimmerman's, Sr. & Jr. to testify that it is GZ screaming. But then the prosecution can then ask the questions we've been asking about how GZ could be screaming that continuously with TM's hands on his nose and mouth while being close to unconsciousness from his head being beaten against the concrete.

I know who I believe it was but I'm looking forward to seeing the evidence the prosecution has.

IMO, JMO, etc.

PaperDoll
05-07-2012, 10:38 PM
Here is what I've been wondering, and if IIRC, the police arrived on the scene less than a minute after the shooting??? correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder if the police heard the screams. They couldn't have been that far off could they? :waitasec:

beach
05-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Mod note:


The quickest way to get a TO is to attack another poster instead of addressing their post.


ZERO tolerance for personal attacks.


That goes for those cleverly worded veiled snarky attacks. Those that we see over and over and over....and over again. Zero tolerance.



Please, please, PLEASE -

As we ALL know, this case is emotionally charged on SO many levels.
Posting in this forum requires self-restraint and lots of TOLERANCE toward your fellow members.



Posting impulsively when emotions are running high is almost never a good thing.

Preview your posts. Preview them 10x if you need to before hitting "submit reply".


Thanks!


*this post falls completely at random*

csziggy
05-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Just in case anyone's interested. Here is Mr. Owen's CV. Also, he has testified or been identified as an expert in at least 12 reported decisions over the past decade or so on voice issues. Which means, imo, he's probably testified or issued a report in about 3 or 4 times that many cases. I can't link to the cases b/c they're from a subscription site, so take it fwiw.

He also is "approved" by a lot of media, which is listed in his CV.

www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf

Here are his court qualifications:
COURT QUALIFIED as EXPERT in VOICE IDENTIFICATION, AUDIO AND VIDEO AUTHENTICATION, SIGNAL PROCESSING, TAPE ENHANCEMENT, RECORDING INDUSTRY PRACTICES.
To date: New York Southern District, New York Eastern District, New York, Buffalo, and New York State Court. Philadelphia, PA; Bethlehem, PA; Hartford, CT; Bridgeport, CT; New York, Rockland County; Raleigh, NC; Newark, NJ; Mays Landing, NJ; Tottawa, NJ; Nashville, TN; Savannah, GA; Carmel, NY; Dover, DE; Tulsa, OK; Louisville, KY; Los Angeles, CA; Bowling Green, KY; Alexandria, VA; Zenia, OH; Kansas City, MO; Denver, CO; NY Bronx Superior Court, Manhattan Supreme Court; NYPD Arbitration Hearing Board; Morganville, West Virginia; Fresno, CA; Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands; Washington DC; Maryland; Florida; Idaho, Las Vegas, Nevada, Hartford, CT, Evanston, IL, Somerville, NJ, Brooklyn, NY ,Miami, FL and others.
http://www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf

Also, there is more information at his business site:
Thomas J. Owen also serves as the Chairman of the Audio Engineering Society's Standards Group SC-03-WG-12 on Forensic Audio. Mr. Owen is also the Chairman Emeritus of The American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Mr. Owen Worked at New York City's Lincoln Center Archives for eleven years as Chief Engineer. He has appeared on network television and on radio discussing audio and video matters. Mr. Owen Lectures extensively in the United States and has numerous publications in the Forensic Examiner.

Mr. Owen's qualifications as an expert witness have been demonstrated in more than thirty-five states for both prosecution and defense.

Organizations

Mr. Owen has diligently and comprehensively examined the areas of Forensic Audio, Video, and Voice Identification in great detail since 1981. There are over seventy-five publications, presentations, and recordings available from the Audio Engineering Society, The American College of Forensic Examiners and others.

More: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/about.html

csziggy
05-07-2012, 10:46 PM
Here is what I've been wondering, and if IIRC, the police arrived on the scene less than a minute after the shooting??? correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder if the police heard the screams. They couldn't have been that far off could they? :waitasec:

There was no indication in the reports we have seen so far that indicate they heard the gunshot so I doubt they heard the screams. There was also no mention of the screams in the preliminary reports that have been released.

I think they got reports of the altercation and the gunshot from the dispatchers before they got on scene, but so far I have not seen the dispatcher logs for any calls other than those from GZ.

IMO, JMO, etc.

vlpate
05-08-2012, 01:46 AM
Here are his court qualifications:


Also, there is more information at his business site:

You are right, but I found even more information on his "credentials".

Tom Owen lists things like this on his resume of qualifications:

Instructor “New York Institute for Forensic Audio” 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998,
1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,2006, 2007

As prestigious as the “New York Institute for Forensic Audio” sounds, there is no such brick and mortar institute. It is actually a “division” of Owen Investigations, LLC. Tom Owen is basically claiming he was an instructor at his own unaccredited university. http://www.owlinvestigations.com/classes.html

Further, for $350, anyone can buy credentials from Thomas O'Block, an ex college professor who was fired for plagiarism.

The Making of an Expert Witness: It's in the Credentials (http://www.scribd.com/doc/66410623/Wall-Street-Article%E2%80%93Diploma-Mills#)

Take a look at the list on this page of Owen's affiliated sites: American Board of Recorded Evidence (http://www.abreboard.us/sites/)
Scroll to " American Psychotherapy Association"
and the read Have You Seen This? Dr. Zoe D. Katze (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=957&sid=14220824)

"World meet Dr. Zoe D. Katze. She's board certified, surprisingly short and has an unfortunate back hair problem… That's because she's a cat. Yes you read that correctly. The feline Zoe Katze is a Ph.D., C.Ht., and a DAPA and she has the paperwork to prove it.
<snip>
Eichel bought certifications from the National Guild of Hypnotists, the American Board of Hypnotherapy and the American Association of Professional Hypnotherapists. He then sent those credentials into the American Psychotherapy Association (APA), which Eichel is a member. The APA then asked for a resume from Dr. Katze."

In fact, all of the "boards" listed on the Tom Owen site, including the ones below, are owned by O'Block. The Public Court: The CSI Effect (http://www.thepubliccourt.com/robert-oblock-certification-diploma-mill/)

WINNER of the “GOLDEN EAGLE AWARD” 1997 American Board of Recorded
Evidence
AWARDED BY “AMERICAN COLLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS” for
appreciation and gratitude for his dedicated leadership as Chairman of the American
Board of Recorded Evidence 1997 - 1998
AWARDED BY “AMERICAN COLLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS” The ACFE
Outstanding Service Award for his efforts and dedication to the ACFE Organization.
October 2000, Las Vegas, NV
LINK (http://www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf)

It would appear Tom Owen may have bought his credentials, rather than obtaining them the old fashioned way, earning them. JMO

gxm
05-08-2012, 08:51 AM
I doubt AC or her assistant prosecutor (Bernie?) will use the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel. The prosecution will probably use the FBI tests if they show any useful information or simply rely on Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton to identify their son's voice.

Of course, the defense will trot out their experts and the Robert Zimmerman's, Sr. & Jr. to testify that it is GZ screaming. But then the prosecution can then ask the questions we've been asking about how GZ could be screaming that continuously with TM's hands on his nose and mouth while being close to unconsciousness from his head being beaten against the concrete.

I know who I believe it was but I'm looking forward to seeing the evidence the prosecution has.

IMO, JMO, etc.

BBM

IMO, the prosecution won't be able to ask these questions. GZ's family members can identify his voice/scream but they will not be able to testify to the actual fight as they were not there. I'm guessing MOM will quickly object if the prosecution tries to sneak that in.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm
05-08-2012, 08:56 AM
I have listened to the 911 call many times. It does certainly seem as though the screaming stops as soon as the shot is fired. While it is obvious why TM would stop screaming, why would GZ? If he were the screamer I don't think he would stop screaming as soon as he fired the shot. He wouldn't know immediately that TM was no longer a threat. It sounds as though the shot actually stops a scream so I think the person screaming was the person shot TM.

Maybe I've watched too many movies, but a fired shot is usually something that silences everyone. Perhaps it's an animal instinct to be quiet and listen for where the threat is coming from.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

And welcome to WS!

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 09:45 AM
Maybe I've watched too many movies, but a fired shot is usually something that silences everyone. Perhaps it's an animal instinct to be quiet and listen for where the threat is coming from.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

And welcome to WS!

That's my experience also, outside of firing ranges and such anyway.

Edit: Also, I don't think I would consider someone a threat after being shot unless they were able to get back up and continue the attack. With that being said, even though I have been to Afghanistan twice, I have never shot someone so this is purely my own feeling for what would be going through my mind.

LiveLaughLuv
05-08-2012, 10:07 AM
I believe they will play it for the jury and they can decide who they believe is screaming for their life, I believe it's not GZ...

Sybrina Fulton heard the tape when the SP played it for her...She ran out of the room, knowing, believeing it's her son's screaming for help. That will go a long way for the jurors..as ACorey had stated during the press conf to announce the charges.

I can't imagine how this family feels knowing the last moments of their son's life was filled with terror. Excruciating terror knowing this is their son's final moment alive on this earth, an innocent teen killed for no reason other than what GZ's paranoid mind told him. His mentaliy is the reason for this behavior. I belive GZ has impulse control issues along with anger management issues. I'd love to know what happened immediately before GZ decided to go to Target for his milk run. Did he and his wife argue? Did something else set his anger off? Something is wrong with GZ, I certainly hope the state has done a psycological on this guy to see what makes him this ticking time bomb...

Justice for Trayvon Martin

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 10:19 AM
I believe they will play it for the jury and they can decide who they believe is screaming for their life, I believe it's not GZ...

Sybrina Fulton heard the tape when the SP played it for her...She ran out of the room, knowing, believeing it's her son's screaming for help. That will go a long way for the jurors..as ACorey had stated during the press conf to announce the charges.

I can't imagine how this family feels knowing the last moments of their son's life was filled with terror. Excruciating terror knowing this is their son's final moment alive on this earth, an innocent teen killed for no reason other than what GZ's paranoid mind told him. His mentaliy is the reason for this behavior. I belive GZ has impulse control issues along with anger management issues. I'd love to know what happened immediately before GZ decided to go to Target for his milk run. Did he and his wife argue? Did something else set his anger off? Something is wrong with GZ, I certainly hope the state has done a psycological on this guy to see what makes him this ticking time bomb...

Justice for Trayvon Martin

Why not call the father? I think that lies in the fact that at least once he stated he didn't feel it was his son.
My first question to his mother would be: "Have you ever heard your son screaming in fear prior to this event?"
My second question would be: "Have you ever heard Mr. Zimmerman scream in fear?"

LiveLaughLuv
05-08-2012, 10:59 AM
Why not call the father? I think that lies in the fact that at least once he stated he didn't feel it was his son.
My first question to his mother would be: "Have you ever heard your son screaming in fear prior to this event?"
My second question would be: "Have you ever heard Mr. Zimmerman scream in fear?"

A mother knows her son's voice...I dont' understand this need to put down anything said from TM's family but GZ's family tells it true?...

they know their son's voice and know that was HIS scream out of fear. Why would they need to hear this fearful scream before this fateful night?

What makes you believe Tracey Martin didn't think this was his sons screams?

Where did you get that info that Tracey Martin did not ID that wail as his sons?

Elley Mae
05-08-2012, 11:12 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

bbm

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 11:13 AM
You are right, but I found even more information on his "credentials".

Tom Owen lists things like this on his resume of qualifications:

Instructor “New York Institute for Forensic Audio” 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998,
1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,2006, 2007

As prestigious as the “New York Institute for Forensic Audio” sounds, there is no such brick and mortar institute. It is actually a “division” of Owen Investigations, LLC. Tom Owen is basically claiming he was an instructor at his own unaccredited university. http://www.owlinvestigations.com/classes.html

Further, for $350, anyone can buy credentials from Thomas O'Block, an ex college professor who was fired for plagiarism.

The Making of an Expert Witness: It's in the Credentials (http://www.scribd.com/doc/66410623/Wall-Street-Article%E2%80%93Diploma-Mills#)

Take a look at the list on this page of Owen's affiliated sites: American Board of Recorded Evidence (http://www.abreboard.us/sites/)
Scroll to " American Psychotherapy Association"
and the read Have You Seen This? Dr. Zoe D. Katze (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=957&sid=14220824)

"World meet Dr. Zoe D. Katze. She's board certified, surprisingly short and has an unfortunate back hair problem… That's because she's a cat. Yes you read that correctly. The feline Zoe Katze is a Ph.D., C.Ht., and a DAPA and she has the paperwork to prove it.
<snip>
Eichel bought certifications from the National Guild of Hypnotists, the American Board of Hypnotherapy and the American Association of Professional Hypnotherapists. He then sent those credentials into the American Psychotherapy Association (APA), which Eichel is a member. The APA then asked for a resume from Dr. Katze."

In fact, all of the "boards" listed on the Tom Owen site, including the ones below, are owned by O'Block. The Public Court: The CSI Effect (http://www.thepubliccourt.com/robert-oblock-certification-diploma-mill/)

WINNER of the “GOLDEN EAGLE AWARD” 1997 American Board of Recorded
Evidence
AWARDED BY “AMERICAN COLLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS” for
appreciation and gratitude for his dedicated leadership as Chairman of the American
Board of Recorded Evidence 1997 - 1998
AWARDED BY “AMERICAN COLLEGE OF FORENSIC EXAMINERS” The ACFE
Outstanding Service Award for his efforts and dedication to the ACFE Organization.
October 2000, Las Vegas, NV
LINK (http://www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf)

It would appear Tom Owen may have bought his credentials, rather than obtaining them the old fashioned way, earning them. JMO

:goodpost:

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 11:17 AM
A mother knows her son's voice...I dont' understand this need to put down anything said from TM's family but GZ's family tells it true?...

they know their son's voice and know that was HIS scream out of fear. Why would they need to hear this fearful scream before this fateful night?

What makes you believe Tracey Martin didn't think this was his sons screams?

Where did you get that info that Tracey Martin did not ID that wail as his sons?

Does that apply to GZ's mother, or just TMs?

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 11:26 AM
A mother knows her son's voice...I dont' understand this need to put down anything said from TM's family but GZ's family tells it true?...

they know their son's voice and know that was HIS scream out of fear. Why would they need to hear this fearful scream before this fateful night?

What makes you believe Tracey Martin didn't think this was his sons screams?

Where did you get that info that Tracey Martin did not ID that wail as his sons?

I can't find a specific source and I don't really have the means to do so right now, so I'll withdraw my assertion that his father said it wasn't his. However, that does bring me to some new questions:
- Is this only bound to mothers?
- Why doesn't the prosecution say, on the affidavit, that Tracy has made the same claim?

I am not saying she's not being truthful. I believe she does feel that it's her son's voice, but that does not make it to be the truth. I'm sure if you told my mother I was just shot to death and played the EXACT SAME TAPE (obviously not my screams) she would say it's mine.

If they had not heard him scream in fear prior to that night how can they say with any confidence that it IS him? Just because you've heard him yelling at his friends on the football field doesn't mean you've heard him YELL IN FEAR.

cityslick
05-08-2012, 11:26 AM
A mother knows her son's voice...I dont' understand this need to put down anything said from TM's family but GZ's family tells it true?...

they know their son's voice and know that was HIS scream out of fear. Why would they need to hear this fearful scream before this fateful night?

What makes you believe Tracey Martin didn't think this was his sons screams?

Where did you get that info that Tracey Martin did not ID that wail as his sons?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2

Serino said Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, listened to all of the 911 calls in the case before the entire family convened at City Hall to listen Friday night. When asked if the voice on one, a male calling for help was his son, told Serino no.

Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that "he couldn't tell, that it was too distorted."

The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said.

So again, Crump needed to do damage control on what was said initially. Why does Serino feel the need to lie about what TM initially said if he initially thought GZ should be charged anyway?

Donjeta
05-08-2012, 11:27 AM
If both the prosecution and the defense bring out a mother to say it's their son they would tend to cancel each other out imo unless one is perceived as not credible.

None of the parents involved here have (hopefully) had many opportunities to witness their son screaming in fear for his life.

Emotional factors that can cloud perception include "OMG, I can't believe my son screamed like that before he died, it's not him", "OMG, I can't believe my son screamed like that before he died, we must get him justice", and "OMG, we must save our son from prison, that has GOT to be his voice to prove that he was in mortal fear".

cityslick
05-08-2012, 11:29 AM
If both the prosecution and the defense bring out a mother to say it's their son they would tend to cancel each other out imo.

I agree, which means it'll fall on either forensic audio to try to determine a voice and/or eyewitnesses.

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 11:34 AM
I agree, which means it'll fall on either forensic audio to try to determine a voice and/or eyewitnesses.

Which wont happen, I'd bet. The "expert" who used software on all of the media outlets has been challenged here and shown to be, at best, a nation-wide commercial for the software he used. In other posts people have pointed out that the FBI does not use voice analysis for court evidence, only the means of a "warm fuzzy" (my estimation) just like a polygraph. There is one other "expert" but I haven't seen a whole lot of talk of him from those who support Zimmerman or Florida State.

Velouria
05-08-2012, 11:47 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2

Serino said Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, listened to all of the 911 calls in the case before the entire family convened at City Hall to listen Friday night. When asked if the voice on one, a male calling for help was his son, told Serino no.

Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that "he couldn't tell, that it was too distorted."

The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said.

So again, Crump needed to do damage control on what was said initially. Why does Serino feel the need to lie about what TM initially said if he initially thought GZ should be charged anyway?

BBM

But how do we know that Serino is lying, and was not misquoted instead?

After all, hasn't it been stated on this forum that there have been numerous instances of shoddy reporting in this case?

Emeralgem
05-08-2012, 11:55 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2

Serino said Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, listened to all of the 911 calls in the case before the entire family convened at City Hall to listen Friday night. When asked if the voice on one, a male calling for help was his son, told Serino no.

Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that "he couldn't tell, that it was too distorted."

The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said.

So again, Crump needed to do damage control on what was said initially. Why does Serino feel the need to lie about what TM initially said if he initially thought GZ should be charged anyway?

Good question...And I suspect Serino has the answer...JMHO

Gin
05-08-2012, 12:07 PM
If both the prosecution and the defense bring out a mother to say it's their son they would tend to cancel each other out imo unless one is perceived as not credible.

None of the parents involved here have (hopefully) had many opportunities to witness their son screaming in fear for his life.

Emotional factors that can cloud perception include "OMG, I can't believe my son screamed like that before he died, it's not him", "OMG, I can't believe my son screamed like that before he died, we must get him justice", and "OMG, we must save our son from prison, that has GOT to be his voice to prove that he was in mortal fear".

I am hoping they have technology that proves it's Trayvon. Those screams sound to me like a young person who's in terrible, terrible fear for his life. I don't believe for one second someone who has gun full 'o hollow point bullets would choose "screaming" over pulling the trigger.

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 12:13 PM
I am hoping they have technology that proves it's Trayvon. Those screams sound to me like a young person who's in terrible, terrible fear for his life. I don't believe for one second someone who has gun full 'o hollow point bullets would choose "screaming" over pulling the trigger.

Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

cityslick
05-08-2012, 01:36 PM
BBM

But how do we know that Serino is lying, and was not misquoted instead?

After all, hasn't it been stated on this forum that there have been numerous instances of shoddy reporting in this case?

Because Crump said he was lying?

So, it's either one of two things. Either Crump is right and Serino is lying on what Tracey Martin initially said, which is a whole other can of worms that goes way beyond George Zimmerman or TM really did initially say that, Crump found out and has to fix that statement because putting doubt into the cries also potentially puts doubt in the minds of the public.

This is why I really want to know if Serino thought GZ was initially guilty, if that's the truth. The article says there was an affidavit filed, which means there is a record somewhere.

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 01:48 PM
Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

I agree whole heartedly.

vlpate
05-08-2012, 02:21 PM
<modsnip>

I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 02:30 PM
I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

Excellent post. I truly believe that GZ only fired as a very last resort. TM screaming just makes no sense to me. I don't believe that gun was unholstered until just before it was fired.

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 03:30 PM
I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

who
05-08-2012, 03:33 PM
While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO
^^ what she said. ^^

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 03:39 PM
While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

cityslick
05-08-2012, 03:41 PM
While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

If GZ had a gun pointed at TM and TM got himself on top of GZ during a scuffle, in a position of power, how exactly does that happen? How does somebody holding a gun out wind up on the bottom with someone on top of him? How does someone who has a gun pointed at them, attack said gunman and wind up on top of them?

Because it's not possible. Either TM was never on top of GZ or he was and GZ didn't have has gun drawn before the fight. I just can't believe any human being, unless they were just looking to die, would attack someone if they saw a person pointing a gun at them.

beach
05-08-2012, 03:41 PM
THREAD TOPIC:

The cries for help


I am going to remove all these off topic posts cluttering up here. So if you are missing a post, that will be why. When I get off work and have time I will try to move them to the correct thread. Until then, please don't quote/respond to off topic posts and continue to drive the thread off topic.

Thanks!

beach
05-08-2012, 03:43 PM
Locking while I clean up. Will reopen soon.

beach
05-08-2012, 04:00 PM
Okay guys. I removed posts discussing the bond hearing, debating SYG laws, the possibility of a plea deal, and much, much more. Removed 35 posts in total. Please find the TOPICAL thread to post your thoughts & opinions. I hate to see so much work go to waste by being removed. I understand how a thread goes sideways. One thought leads to another and it starts spiraling until the thread is completely off topic. We all contribute at times. Just be aware and nudge those with who you are conversing and all of y'all move over to the right thread so your posts get to stand, okay?

I will try to move them to the topical thread when I get home tonight.


:tyou:

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 04:10 PM
You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

MOO

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 04:23 PM
The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

MOO

I won't say factually whether they did or didn't. The picture, though enhanced, doesn't really give any clear indication - only a couple slightly less smudged marks, which could be blood dripping from a soaked bandage (I'm not saying it is, just that it could be). The only evidence we currently have is that picture that I'm aware of.

MaryAnn
05-08-2012, 04:38 PM
You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

sleonardelli
05-08-2012, 04:44 PM
While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

Agreed!

IMO, Trayvon may have been on top when "John" saw him but could've been on the bottom before and/or after. He could've been on bottom and screaming when he was shot and then GZ flipped him over after he shot him.

I do not see how someone swallowing copious amounts of blood with his mouth/nose covered can scream like what we heard on the 911 call.

MaryAnn
05-08-2012, 04:46 PM
Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.

vlpate
05-08-2012, 04:48 PM
JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

I don't even have to read the report to assure you that EMT never wrote they didn't think GZ needed to go to the ER. They may have made notes about his condition, but it is never their right to say one way or the other unless the patient is incoherent. GZ has a constitutional right to refuse medical attention.

People in shock sometimes don't realize the extent of their injuries. I had a friend break every bone in her face practically in a horrific accident, when EMT arrived, she was helping a kid out of the other vehicle. I don't think GZ's injuries were severe either, but I don't think he was all there after just having killed someone.

Reader
05-08-2012, 04:55 PM
JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

sleonardelli
05-08-2012, 04:55 PM
Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.

I can personally guarantee not all of us in the gunshine state carry!

vlpate
05-08-2012, 04:57 PM
While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.
BEM: The eye witnesses back it up, and the statement given by GZ the night of the shooting does not conflict with their statements, according to the investigator for the prosecution.
Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.
MOO

BEM: So you can actually visualize the 5'8" GZ, holding onto a screaming 6'3" TM, while lying beneath him holding a gun on him? Was TM sitting there helpless with his hands in the air screaming and not trying to get away? How is that realistically or logistically feasible?

LC446
05-08-2012, 04:58 PM
I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimmerman-injuries-exclusive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a f***ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

Karmady
05-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

I don't know if you're referring to something else, but I listened to the ambulance dispatch recording and it was clear to me that one of the two ambulances was turned back due to "no vitals." Imo, that would be for Trayvon. Would the ME's office (or whatever, I don't know the "lingo") have responded instead?. I did not hear or read that the second ambulance was cancelled, but may have missed that.

vlpate
05-08-2012, 05:01 PM
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

Why would he ever do that?

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 05:02 PM
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

I think the likeliness of that happening are about the same as the state stipulating that it was GZ screaming. In other words - 0%. I have not seen any discrepencies to indicate that it was not GZ screaming.

vlpate
05-08-2012, 05:12 PM
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimmerman-injuries-exclusive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a f***ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO

mikeysmommom
05-08-2012, 05:21 PM
TM's dad has a deep voice, I wonder if TM voice was deep like his dads.IMO GZ is not deep at all. Most teens have their own voice on their message on cells,hopefully Le has that phone and TM recorded his own message.That is one way to hear what TM sounded like.IMO If the family has video's of TM if they think it really is him maybe they would release them for proof.

who
05-08-2012, 05:27 PM
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimmerman-injuries-exclusive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a f***ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.
Just had to say - that is one hellofa great post.

Expressed just exactly how I too think it went down. :clap:

Well said. Bravo!

LC446
05-08-2012, 05:35 PM
BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO

I don't know what GZ told police 30 minutes later. I haven't seen his official statements only what he supposedly told his family members and his friend, who have shared with the world. I say he realizes he clearly screwed up because he shot an unarmed teen and only has a small, non life threatening cut on the back of his head to show for it.

We better get on topic before beach gets us! ;)

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 05:38 PM
BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO

It was raining so the ground and sidewalk were both wet. Trayvon tries to pull away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman holds onto him with one hand for dear life so the a-hole can't get away this time. In Zimmerman's other hand he has a gun pointed at Trayvon, making Trayvon struggle even more to get away and scream and plead for his life. During that life and death struggle where Trayvon is frantically trying to break free and not get shot Zimmerman loses his balance falling backwards taking Trayvon down with him. Trayvon falls on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman still won't let go of Trayvon. Trayvon is still screaming and pleading for his life. At this point the kid with the dog sees Trayvon on top of Zimmerman even though it is Zimmerman that caused the fall by refusing to let go of Trayvon. The dog breaks free, runs off, the kid follows so he doesn't see the rest of the struggle. Zimmerman, having enough of this struggle shoots Trayvon and kills him.

There ya go. Just one possible way for it to be Trayvon screaming and pleading for his life, for Zimmerman to be fully responsible for the entire altercation and for Trayvon to be on top of Zimmerman at one point.

MOO

who
05-08-2012, 05:40 PM
I don't know what GZ told police 30 minutes later. I haven't seen his official statements only what he supposedly told his family members and his friend, who have shared with the world. I say he realizes he clearly screwed up because he shot an unarmed teen and only has a small, non life threatening cut on the back of his head to show for it.

We better get on topic before beach gets us! ;)
One thing Gilbreath noted during his time on the stand was something to the effect of how there were numerous witnesses at the scene and he had no idea how much Zimmerman picked up from them.

I'll see if I can find it.

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 06:05 PM
First, I will be snipping quite a bit. I'm after a few select statements and I do apologize if you find this out of order but having multiple people quote it makes little sense to me.

And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.
I didn't know they were going to allow the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand stories to be allowed into "evidence." If so, are the Martins also going to get to tell the story as they know it? It would only be fair. Also, you have to keep in mind that people can have misunderstandings. For example, BG said that Mr. Martin was sitting on the porch and Mr. Zimmerman just came up and shot him. She didn't understand something somewhere, obviously.

Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.
If you ask me, this supports Mr. Zimmerman because he doesn't say they were rolling around on the ground trying to rip each others clothes off. He states he was hit, he fell to the ground, Mr. Martin was on top of him slamming his head into the cement, his mouth/nose was covered and Mr. Martin went for his weapon. To me it seems logical that there wouldn't be a whole lot of ripped clothes, etc, given the story as it's told.

He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid.
After reviewing the enhanced photo, which is much more clear than the blurred video you linked, I still can't be sure there isn't a bandage. I see a smudge mark, but that could be indicative of a bandage that is full of blood and starting to drip. I do see two bump type anomalies slightly higher of those marks also. Without the reports I wouldn't say either way, personally.

Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone.
Another problem is that the body was no where near the cut-through that you're speaking of. Whether you take Zimmerman's story or your own the body would've been near the cut-through if he "cut Martin off." Both stories have Mr. Zimmerman falling near the place that they met and the confrontation happened.

Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture.
I'm not sure about you, but I watch a lot of "funny videos" where people fall down due to various things. Not very many videos do you see of people falling back as if they're doing a nose dive. Maybe if he lost consciousness after being hit and his body locked up, but he never states anything about actually losing consciousness from what I know. I don't know enough about the picture from 3 minutes after to speak of it confidently.

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well.
So now he's in a backwards nose dive (unconscious?), holding on to someone.. and his knees don't buckle? I don't buy it.

IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away.
I'm not going to fully speculate, but I think Mr. Martin was trying to get the weapon out of his hand based on the information I discussed earlier with another member here about a new round not being chambered. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away.

gxm
05-08-2012, 06:12 PM
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimmerman-injuries-exclusive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a f***ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

IMO, the problem I see in your scenario is that if all GZ wanted to do was detain TM then he could have just kept wrestling with him until the cops got there. It makes more sense to me that it became a life and death struggle at some point, perhaps when TM noticed GZ's gun and wrestling for control of the gun came into play. IMO, there is no reason for GZ to shoot TM except that he was in fear for his life. And to make this more on topic, I think both TM and GZ were screaming at some point and if they were fighting for control of the gun they both were in fear for their lives.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 06:15 PM
I'm not going to fully speculate, but I think Mr. Martin was trying to get the weapon out of his hand based on the information I discussed earlier with another member here about a new round not being chambered. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away.

RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.

MOO

Karmady
05-08-2012, 06:26 PM
RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.
MOO

Can you please clarify for me what you mean by the bolded words. I've listened to that recording several times, and while I'll give you "screaming" for sounds that I would consider to be some kind of undifferentiated loud vocalization, I cannot hear any pleading whatsoever. For "the cries for help" title of this thread I'm going on the eyewitness who says that was George yelling for help. But honestly, I don't even clearly hear a "help" on the tape. And, in any case, I don't consider saying help to be pleading for one's life. To me, pleading for your life means begging the person who's about to kill you, not to. And I definitely didn't hear anything like that. But maybe that's not what you mean?

gxm
05-08-2012, 06:26 PM
RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.

MOO

BBM.

People keep using this phrase. Is there really a recording of someone screaming "Please don't kill me" or "Please don't shoot me!" I find it very confusing when embellishments like this are made.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on anyone as many folks, here on WS and elsewhere, keep using this phrase. Is there something I missed where someone "pleading for his life" can actually be heard on one of the tapes?

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 06:36 PM
I have listened to that 911 call numerous times. For me, I do not hear "help" over and over. What I do hear is an anguished scream, a cry of complete terror, a cry that while it is not SAYING please don't, it is strongly suggested to the person that is doing harm to the one screaming. What I hear are cries that can be equal to someone begging and pleading to not be killed. I also stated in my post, as I always do unless I am linking to something, that it is MOO. I also heard ONE "help" right before the gunshot and that one "help" was not screamed as the other sounds were. To me, and my ears, that one "help" was done by someone completely different than the screams and appeared to be a "help" for the benefit of whoever was listening to the screams and so that person could later claim that they yelled "help" but no one did.

again MOO

vlpate
05-08-2012, 06:54 PM
It was raining so the ground and sidewalk were both wet. Trayvon tries to pull away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman holds onto him with one hand for dear life so the a-hole can't get away this time. In Zimmerman's other hand he has a gun pointed at Trayvon, making Trayvon struggle even more to get away and scream and plead for his life. During that life and death struggle where Trayvon is frantically trying to break free and not get shot Zimmerman loses his balance falling backwards taking Trayvon down with him. Trayvon falls on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman still won't let go of Trayvon. Trayvon is still screaming and pleading for his life. At this point the kid with the dog sees Trayvon on top of Zimmerman even though it is Zimmerman that caused the fall by refusing to let go of Trayvon. The dog breaks free, runs off, the kid follows so he doesn't see the rest of the struggle. Zimmerman, having enough of this struggle shoots Trayvon and kills him.

There ya go. Just one possible way for it to be Trayvon screaming and pleading for his life, for Zimmerman to be fully responsible for the entire altercation and for Trayvon to be on top of Zimmerman at one point.

MOO

Just one person on the ground. I realize he changed his story after his mother lawyered up, and this interview with MG is nowhere to be found now, but he said what he said and he wasn't coerced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related

In a much more edited and, IMO, scripted interview, he still says "someone" laying on the ground and someone screaming. There would be no reason for the person NOT laying on the ground to be screaming, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AySYPMy1Ejw&feature=related

From the 13 year old boy's 911 call:
"Caller: "I saw a man laying on the ground screaming who needed help. I was going to go over there to try and help him, but my dog got off the leash, and I ran and got him, and I hurried around and down, and the screaming stopped."

GZ did not pull TM down to the ground with him. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/

vlpate
05-08-2012, 07:07 PM
I have listened to that 911 call numerous times. For me, I do not hear "help" over and over. What I do hear is an anguished scream, a cry of complete terror, a cry that while it is not SAYING please don't, it is strongly suggested to the person that is doing harm to the one screaming. What I hear are cries that can be equal to someone begging and pleading to not be killed. I also stated in my post, as I always do unless I am linking to something, that it is MOO. I also heard ONE "help" right before the gunshot and that one "help" was not screamed as the other sounds were. To me, and my ears, that one "help" was done by someone completely different than the screams and appeared to be a "help" for the benefit of whoever was listening to the screams and so that person could later claim that they yelled "help" but no one did.

again MOO

Caller: "I don't know why. I think they are yelling 'help,' but I don't know. Just end someone quick, please."
Dispatcher: "Does he look hurt to you?"

Caller: "I can't see him. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on."

Dispatcher: "So you think he's yelling help?"

Caller: "Yes. There's gunshots."

Caller: "I’m looking out my deck, and someone is screaming 'help,' and I don’t know. … I heard a bang. I’m looking out my window, out my backyard, and someone is yelling and screaming 'help.' "
Caller:" I know. I can't believe somebody's killed. He was saying help. Why didn't someone come out and help him?"

Dispatcher: "Listen, we don't know if they been killed ..."

Caller: "Yes, the person is dead, laying on the ground."

Dispatcher: "Just because he's laying on the ground don't mean he's passed. We have an ambulance on the way, and we are probably going to pick him up and take him to the hospital."

Caller: "I didn't see cause it was too dark, and I just heard people screaming 'help me, help me.'
Caller: "It was either that or a rock at the window or something else. The guy's yelling 'help,' and I'm not going to help."

Dispatcher: "So you can hear someone yelling for help?"

Caller: "I'm pretty sure the guy is dead out here. Holy s***"

Dispatcher: "OK, we have several people calling in. Anything else that you heard?"

Caller: "A guy yelling, 'help.' Oh, my God! There is a guy with a flashlight in the backyard now. I think there's flashlights and a guy. ... I don't know if that's a cop. "

Caller: "This is 911, correct? Police or medical. Someone is yelling two doors down from me, screaming, hollering 'help, help, help.' There is an elderly man that lives down there. I don't know. I heard a gunshot. I don't know if it would be ambulance."
Caller: "I don't know, ma'am, I'm standing at my back sliding glass door. I don't see anything but a flashlight shining around, but I did hear someone yelling 'help, help, help' or 'oh, my gosh' and something, then moaning and a boom, and I picked up the phone and called."
Caller: "I saw a man laying on the ground screaming who needed help. I was going to go over there to try and help him, but my dog got off the leash, and I ran and got him, and I hurried around and down, and the screaming stopped."

"When police put Zimmerman in the back of the cruiser, he said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me," according to the police report." LINK CNN (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/)

I think someone was yelling "help", JMO
.

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 07:08 PM
This is the same boy whose mother has said that the SPD waited 5 days before contacting her son to interview him, yes? There is an interview with the mother of the 13 year old at the link below.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense?lite

From that article:
The shooting occurred Feb. 26, and Brown's son called 911 to report it at the time. But police didn't seek to question him until March 2, Brown said. She wasn't home, so they returned March 5, meaning eight days passed before police actually questioned a key eyewitness.

"I was waiting every day for someone to come knocking on the door," she said.

Once they did, Brown alleged, police tried to lead her son to agree to certain assertions, such as the race of the person on the ground and what he was wearing. But the boy stuck to his insistence that he couldn't make out either because it was too dark.

Based on the above it appears to me that it could have been Trayvon on the ground, not Zimmerman. So at this point the 13 year old is not really a valuable witness since he admits he did not see much because of it being to dark. He also does not state that he heard a gunshot before the screams stopped. Does that mean that he did not hear one or that he just did not tell about it?

MOO

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 07:12 PM
"When police put Zimmerman in the back of the cruiser, he said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me," according to the police report." LINK CNN (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/)

I think someone was yelling "help", JMO
.

I stated before that I did hear help. I went back and listened to the 911 call in question that has the screams on it. Yes, there are helps on it along with screams of pure terror. Then there is also the one help that sounds completely different from the other helps and screams. As far as Zimmerman claiming that no one helped him, does that discredit "John" or does that discredit Zimmerman? When you have "John" saying he told the person yelling help that he was going to call 911 then we have "John" helping. So who do we believe?

MOO

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 07:18 PM
I stated before that I did hear help. I went back and listened to the 911 call in question that has the screams on it. Yes, there are helps on it along with screams of pure terror. Then there is also the one help that sounds completely different from the other helps and screams. As far as Zimmerman claiming that no one helped him, does that discredit "John" or does that discredit Zimmerman? When you have "John" saying he told the person yelling help that he was going to call 911 then we have "John" helping. So who do we believe?

MOO

If I were having my head slammed into the ground, fearful of my life, telling me "I'm going to go call 911!" isn't help to me. It will take minutes for police to arrive, I need help NOW.

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 07:22 PM
If I were having my head slammed into the ground, fearful of my life, telling me "I'm going to go call 911!" isn't help to me. It will take minutes for police to arrive, I need help NOW.

Key word being IF. Based on the photos that we have seen, both released by SPD and leaked by who knows who, there is no evidence that Zimmerman had his head slammed into the ground (actually he claimed the sidewalk) repeatedly as he claimed. Zimmerman knew that SPD was on the way. He had already called the non-emergancy number, spoken with the dispatcher and knew that the SPD were already on the way. Again, I stand by my opinion. "John", if he is to be believed, was helping whoever was yelling for help.

MOO

Reader
05-08-2012, 07:25 PM
I don't know if you're referring to something else, but I listened to the ambulance dispatch recording and it was clear to me that one of the two ambulances was turned back due to "no vitals." Imo, that would be for Trayvon. Would the ME's office (or whatever, I don't know the "lingo") have responded instead?. I did not hear or read that the second ambulance was cancelled, but may have missed that.

Ambulance called for George Zimmerman canceled, dispatch recordings say

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408040-504083/ambulance-called-for-george-zimmerman-canceled-dispatch-recordings-say/

(CBS/WKMG) SANFORD, Fla. - Newly released fire rescue dispatch recordings from the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed reveal that a second ambulance - presumably to tend to George Zimmerman - was canceled before it arrived at the scene of the shooting.

LambChop
05-08-2012, 07:25 PM
First, I will be snipping quite a bit. I'm after a few select statements and I do apologize if you find this out of order but having multiple people quote it makes little sense to me.


I didn't know they were going to allow the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand stories to be allowed into "evidence." If so, are the Martins also going to get to tell the story as they know it? It would only be fair. Also, you have to keep in mind that people can have misunderstandings. For example, BG said that Mr. Martin was sitting on the porch and Mr. Zimmerman just came up and shot him. She didn't understand something somewhere, obviously.


If you ask me, this supports Mr. Zimmerman because he doesn't say they were rolling around on the ground trying to rip each others clothes off. He states he was hit, he fell to the ground, Mr. Martin was on top of him slamming his head into the cement, his mouth/nose was covered and Mr. Martin went for his weapon. To me it seems logical that there wouldn't be a whole lot of ripped clothes, etc, given the story as it's told.


After reviewing the enhanced photo, which is much more clear than the blurred video you linked, I still can't be sure there isn't a bandage. I see a smudge mark, but that could be indicative of a bandage that is full of blood and starting to drip. I do see two bump type anomalies slightly higher of those marks also. Without the reports I wouldn't say either way, personally.


Another problem is that the body was no where near the cut-through that you're speaking of. Whether you take Zimmerman's story or your own the body would've been near the cut-through if he "cut Martin off." Both stories have Mr. Zimmerman falling near the place that they met and the confrontation happened.


I'm not sure about you, but I watch a lot of "funny videos" where people fall down due to various things. Not very many videos do you see of people falling back as if they're doing a nose dive. Maybe if he lost consciousness after being hit and his body locked up, but he never states anything about actually losing consciousness from what I know. I don't know enough about the picture from 3 minutes after to speak of it confidently.


So now he's in a backwards nose dive (unconscious?), holding on to someone.. and his knees don't buckle? I don't buy it.


I'm not going to fully speculate, but I think Mr. Martin was trying to get the weapon out of his hand based on the information I discussed earlier with another member here about a new round not being chambered. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away.

How do we know TM wasn't trying to keep GZ from shooting him. If those were TM's screams I would say that was more likely than TM was trying to get the gun from GZ. I could see someone trying to grab and push the gun away to keep from getting shot and GZ thinking he was trying to grab his gun. Why would GZ lie about the details though??? jmo

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 07:31 PM
How do we know TM wasn't trying to keep GZ from shooting him. If those were TM's screams I would say that was more likely than TM was trying to get the gun from GZ. I could see someone trying to grab and push the gun away to keep from getting shot and GZ thinking he was trying to grab his gun. Why would GZ lie about the details though??? jmo

You'd think if he were trying to keep from being shot he would've tried harder at moving the weapon away from his body than keeping the slide from moving back. Just my opinion, of course.

suspicious1
05-08-2012, 07:32 PM
I truly believe it was TRAYVON yelling for help.

GZ knew help was on the way Trayvon did not. IMO if GZ would've never gotten out of his car with a loaded gun following Trayvon there would've never been a struggle over the gun, if that's what happened. GZ was asking for trouble and he found it.

JMO

Karmady
05-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Ambulance called for George Zimmerman canceled, dispatch recordings say

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408040-504083/ambulance-called-for-george-zimmerman-canceled-dispatch-recordings-say/

(CBS/WKMG) SANFORD, Fla. - Newly released fire rescue dispatch recordings from the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed reveal that a second ambulance - presumably to tend to George Zimmerman - was canceled before it arrived at the scene of the shooting.

Thanks. I know what the article says, but I don't see the audio link there? If you listen to the audio link, you will hear the dispatcher say something about "no vitals" when cancelling one of the ambulances. If she went on to say the the second injured person did not have gunshot wounds, that was, imo, just to clarify that the second unit would not be coming upon that type of injury. I think she did say that. I just can't remember for sure. Imo, she was saying that (1) person who was shot is dead - no ambulance, and (2) the other guy was not shot.

Take a listen. I'm happy to stand corrected, but I do believe the article is wrong, and did when I first listened, too.

Dr.Fessel
05-08-2012, 07:34 PM
BBM.

People keep using this phrase. Is there really a recording of someone screaming "Please don't kill me" or "Please don't shoot me!" I find it very confusing when embellishments like this are made.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on anyone as many folks, here on WS and elsewhere, keep using this phrase. Is there something I missed where someone "pleading for his life" can actually be heard on one of the tapes? Screaming for help in a life threatening situation is pleading for your life. IMO

TorisMom003
05-08-2012, 07:35 PM
This is the same boy whose mother has said that the SPD waited 5 days before contacting her son to interview him, yes? There is an interview with the mother of the 13 year old at the link below.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense?lite

From that article:
The shooting occurred Feb. 26, and Brown's son called 911 to report it at the time. But police didn't seek to question him until March 2, Brown said. She wasn't home, so they returned March 5, meaning eight days passed before police actually questioned a key eyewitness.

"I was waiting every day for someone to come knocking on the door," she said.

Once they did, Brown alleged, police tried to lead her son to agree to certain assertions, such as the race of the person on the ground and what he was wearing. But the boy stuck to his insistence that he couldn't make out either because it was too dark.

Based on the above it appears to me that it could have been Trayvon on the ground, not Zimmerman. So at this point the 13 year old is not really a valuable witness since he admits he did not see much because of it being to dark. He also does not state that he heard a gunshot before the screams stopped. Does that mean that he did not hear one or that he just did not tell about it?

MOO

Using my own qoute because I found another article that says something different from the article above. Again, this proves that witnesses are unreliable and shows that the 13 year old was not sure about who was on the ground at the time.

From the article:
“I saw someone lying on the ground, and I heard screaming,” said Austin, 13, whose mother asked that his last name not be published. “I don’t know that it was the person on the (ground) who was screaming, but to me it sounded like a kid who was crying. It was a yell for help, and I think it was Trayvon.”

Austin wasn’t sure if the person was in a fight or had slipped and gotten hurt. Austin’s Boxer puppy got off the leash so the boy went chasing after the dog and lost sight of the scene for a moment. Then, he heard a gun go off.

Link:
http://www.canada.com/news/Trayvon+Martin+case+Witnesses+recall+unarmed+teen+ cries+before+shooting/6325434/story.html