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SoSueMe
04-21-2012, 06:06 AM
Trial Discussion Thread:

reposting a few of the warnings:

Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

Thank you,
Salem

---------------------------------


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Websleuths Co-Owner

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Salem
05-06-2012, 09:53 PM
If all goes well today, closing arguments will begin.

Salem

SoSueMe
05-07-2012, 05:35 AM
*Bump*

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 06:19 AM
Good Morning!

http://victoria-stafford.gonetoosoon.org/file/scale__600x500/a913f7313095ed3e336ae5553d41a044/403638_1243014167.jpg

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 06:24 AM
The murder trial of Michael Rafferty resumes Monday.

Rafferty's lawyer, Dirk Derstine, was expected to make his closing argument Friday, but jurors were told by phone not to return until Monday because more time was needed for Derstine and the prosecution team to consult with Justice Thomas Heeney on his charge to the jury.

Derstine is now expected to deliver his closing argument Monday, followed by the Crown's closing argument.

Heeney then will deliver his charge to the jury before they begin their deliberations.

The jury has been hearing evidence for two months since the trial began March 5.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/04/19716276.html

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 06:27 AM
Rafferty defence set to present closing arguments

LONDON, Ont. — The trial of a man accused in the death of Victoria Stafford will hear the defence theory today of what happened the day the eight-year-old girl was abducted and killed.

Michael Rafferty has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder, sexual assault causing bodily harm and kidnapping in the girl's death on April 8th, 2009.

His lawyer, Dirk Derstine, is expected to repeat in his closing arguments today a suggestion that Terri-Lynne McClintic was the "engine" behind the day's events.





http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120507/rafferty-defence-closing-arguments-120507/

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 06:30 AM
After choosing not to have his client take the stand and testify, Rafferty's lead defence counsel Dirk Derstine will have to address the jury first; laying out his case one final time. After Derstine, Crown Attorney Kevin Gowdey will take the podium some time in the afternoon. He will likely continue on into Tuesday.

Justice Thomas Heeney will begin his final instruction to the jury on Wednesday morning and could go into Thursday. After that, he will dismiss the jury to deliberate its verdict.


http://www.newstalk1010.com/News/localnews/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10380324

matou
05-07-2012, 06:51 AM
Michael Rafferty has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder, sexual assault causing bodily harm and kidnapping in the girl's death on April 8th, 2009.

His lawyer, Dirk Derstine, is expected to repeat in his closing arguments today a suggestion that Terri-Lynne McClintic was the ``engine'' behind the day's events.

http://www.570news.com/news/local/article/359846--rafferty-trial-closing-arguments

Dmman
05-07-2012, 07:22 AM
Good morning. Definitely looking forward to this week. Hopefully we'll have a verdict before the weeks end! Thinking of the Macdonald-Stafford families & praying for the guilty verdict for the family & especially Victoria!

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 07:55 AM
My stomach is in knots and I'm very emotional today. Perhaps it's because we're nearing the end of this long awaited journey to justice for Victoria.

Prayers to Tara, Rodney, D and Victoria's family. May justice prevail. RIP Victoria.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:08 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crowd has formed awaiting the closing arguments in Michael #Rafferty trial

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:13 AM
Mark Carcasole ‏ @MarkCarc1010
Many observers here early for #Rafferty trial. Sign it could get pretty packed at the courthouse again today.

nettie_82
05-07-2012, 08:23 AM
I feel as though today is the beginning of the end. Prayers to Victoria's family this week! May justice be served!!!! I pray Tori will lead the jurors to an appropriate decision.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 08:32 AM
OMG i was in the other room and I am like why is no one here damn it LOL Only to realize that today was the 6th LOL.. Good Lord :)

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 08:34 AM
Crap make that the 7th LOLOL.. Coffee where's the coffee?? LOL

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:37 AM
Crap make that the 7th LOLOL.. Coffee where's the coffee?? LOL

http://blog.fitnesstown.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/coffee_morning.jpg

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:38 AM
Mike Knoll: The fate of Michael Rafferty is expected to be in the hands of the jury this week.
Rafferty's lawyer Dirk Derstine is scheduled to make his closing remarks to the jury Monday morning, followed by the Crown.

Justice Thomas Heeney will give the jury his instructions on Wednesday.

Rafferty, 31, has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder, kidnapping and sexual assault in the 2009 killing of eight-year-old Woodstock girl Tory Stafford.

Rafferty's former girlfriend, Terri-Lynne McClintic has already pleaded guilty to first-degree murder and is serving a life sentence. She was the central witnesses for the Crown during the five week trial.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 08:43 AM
http://blog.fitnesstown.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/coffee_morning.jpg

Thanks LOL

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:44 AM
8:44
Mike Knoll: @guest - just the defence.
8:44
Comment From guest
Does the Crown speak today also or is it just the defense. I have been following from day 1 and i now am in China for work.
8:43
Mike Knoll: Video of Randy Richmond and me discussing the defence not calling Rafferty to the stand: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/01/19704156.html

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 08:53 AM
8:46
Mike Knoll: @guest - sorry - just confirmed that we may get the beginning of the Crown's closing arguments this afternoon.

myzzy
05-07-2012, 09:01 AM
I want to hear the defence give there reason, until today we haven't really heard MR version as to what happened, we have only heard a suggestion at a rather short one at that.

Wondergirl
05-07-2012, 09:12 AM
Good-morning.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22076&stc=1&d=1336396339

snoofer
05-07-2012, 09:19 AM
How strange or not strange is it for a defense to show pretty much nothing in way of defense until the closing argument? Is this common? Will we be surprised? MOO

a. will there be a shocker
b. will defense pull a rabbit out of their hat
c. will the defense lead show his brilliance today and leave us in awe?
d. will this be the turning point for defense?
e. will this be just much of the same
f. or by this afternoon is defense...going down.
g. or by the end of the day; will the group still be divided and or straddling the fence?

What do you think? MOO

If by end of day (g) applies, then crown could be in real trouble. I hope that either way it goes, it is definitive and leaves no doubt about guilt or innocence. JMO

Ardy
05-07-2012, 09:33 AM
How strange or not strange is it for a defense to show pretty much nothing in way of defense until the closing argument? Is this common? Will we be surprised? MOO

a. will there be a shocker
b. will defense pull a rabbit out of their hat
c. will the defense lead show his brilliance today and leave us in awe?
d. will this be the turning point for defense?
e. will this be just much of the same
f. or by this afternoon is defense...going down.
g. or by the end of the day; will the group still be divided and or straddling the fence?

What do you think? MOO

g............in all probability.

Unless the defense can pull a shocker, that is directly tied to evidence, that none of us have thought of and debated yet.......and I couldn't imagine what that could be.

JMO.......

Dmman
05-07-2012, 09:34 AM
How strange or not strange is it for a defense to show pretty much nothing in way of defense until the closing argument? Is this common? Will we be surprised? MOO

a. will there be a shocker
b. will defense pull a rabbit out of their hat
c. will the defense lead show his brilliance today and leave us in awe?
d. will this be the turning point for defense?
e. will this be just much of the same
f. or by this afternoon is defense...going down.
g. or by the end of the day; will the group still be divided and or straddling the fence?

What do you think? MOO

I don't think they can pull out a trump card without evidence to back it...at this point it would be circumstantial, if that. I think Derstine will play the TLM mastermind card to the fullest. It's the only defense they have IMO...and a weak one at that....IMO

Dmman
05-07-2012, 09:37 AM
A report that MR's mother is there today...ohhhhh

nobodyzgirl
05-07-2012, 09:38 AM
It looks like Michael #Rafferty's mother Deb Murphy is in court today.

I've been told #Rafferty's mom was in court a few days last week but went unnoticed. Our cameras captured her coming in this morning

https://twitter.com/#!/cbcsteve

Guess you can't believe what media reports about MR's family not being there. I guess MR does have support of his family after all. JMO

nettie_82
05-07-2012, 09:38 AM
lzilkeglobal ‏ @lzilkeglobal
Deborah Murphy, mother of accused Michael #Rafferty attending closing arguments. Son charged in death of #tori Stafford @globalnewsto

Linda Nguyen ‏
#Rafferty's mother says she was here 2 days last week. She was quite reluctant and didn't want to say anything else #ToriStafford

Yody04
05-07-2012, 09:39 AM
8:46
Mike Knoll: @guest - sorry - just confirmed that we may get the beginning of the Crown's closing arguments this afternoon.

Crown's closing arguments? ??
I thought they start with the degence argument.
I AM CONFUSED !!

puppyraiser
05-07-2012, 09:39 AM
London Free Press ‏ @RaffertyLFP

A woman believed to be Michael Rafferty's mother was spotted coming into court today.

Yody04
05-07-2012, 09:43 AM
Crown's closing arguments? ??
I thought they start with the degence argument.
I AM CONFUSED !!

sorry for my nonsense post. I need a coffee too..lol
wow, crown's closing argument already this afternoon? so fast?
I expected to hear the defence talking all day ...

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:43 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
I've been told #Rafferty's mom was in court a few days last week but went unnoticed. Our cameras captured her coming in this morning


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
It looks like Michael #Rafferty's mother Deb Murphy is in court today.

Peekaboo10
05-07-2012, 09:44 AM
Morning everyone... I am so nervous!

Alison
05-07-2012, 09:44 AM
Guess you can't believe what media reports about MR's family not being there. I guess MR does have support of his family after all. JMO


That is assuming she is supporting him.
It is reasonable though why she would want to fly under the radar. Her emotions must be so wrought with confusion and sorrow, she is another vicitm in this whole case as well. I hope she can find peace JMO.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Crown's closing arguments? ??
I thought they start with the degence argument.
I AM CONFUSED !!

Defense starts and if time allows, Crown may begin theirs. That is how I'm interpreting the tweets. HTH

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:49 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
The main courtroom is full, and now the overflow room is serving its purpose and is starting to fill up as well

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 09:52 AM
Mike did any media try to get a reaction from- rafferty's Mother or approach her at all?

Mike Knoll: @Debbie - Randy Richmond spoke with her

WOW

9:31 Mike Knoll: Breaking news hit from Randy Richmond:

Michael Rafferty's mother has turned up at court as the jury begins to
hear closing arguments in his murder trial.

Deborah Murphy arrived Monday, the day defence lawyer Dirk Derstine makes
his closing arguments.

Murphy said she had been here last week but declined to comment further,
saying she may speak to the media after the verdict.

Rafferty's family has not attended the trial before now.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:52 AM
9:51
Mike Knoll: @Debbie - Randy Richmond spoke with her.
9:51
Comment From Debbie from Woodstock
Mike did any media try to get a reaction from- rafferty's Mother or approach her at all?

Kamille
05-07-2012, 09:53 AM
Defense starts and if time allows, Crown may begin theirs. That is how I'm interpreting the tweets. HTH

Does anyone know if objections can be raised during closing arguments?

Alison
05-07-2012, 09:53 AM
Just a story I thought I would share with you guys. Yesterday my family and I were returning from grocery shopping. We pulled into our yard and there is this little girl just standing there in my front yard. I was like "whose that kid?" My daughter says it is So and so from school ( this kid is 5). I was like okay go see her I will be right there and find out what is going on. So I come up and she was telling me she followed her dog into our yard and that no one is at her house. I told her well lets go see because we do not want to scare your family because they can not find you. So I take her home and low and behold her mom is sitting on her front porch drinking beer with her boyfriend while her husband is working out of town. She was like oh did she come for a visit? I said no she was in our yard when we returned home and I have no idea how long she was there. Mom replies well I was calling for her (which she was not) and I told her to stay in the yard so now she is going to be in trouble (WTH?). The woman new I was pi**ed off. I just walked away. My daughter who is 11 was so upset. She was like mom some bad people could have took her and did bad things to her, you should really tell on her mom. I explained that kids wander sometimes ( I believe all parents have expereinced some sort of fear) however what bothered me was she did not know she was gone and then proceeded to give the child trouble when she neglected to be a parent. The other problem is we live in the bush by a lake. My back yard has a drop off to the lake and she could have been seriously injured. OMG it makes me soooooooo mad!

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:55 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
There are about a dozen people, not including media, who are in the overflow room for the #Rafferty trial


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
@Michelle1544 It looks like she is here with a man, possibly her partner


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
#Rafferty's mother says she was here 2 days last week. She was quite reluctant and didn't want to say anything else

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
This is the first time we have seen anyone from #Rafferty's family at #ToriStafford trial. She doesn't want to talk until the verdict

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
There is a woman waiting outside the courtroom today who says she is Michael #Rafferty's mother, Deborah Murphy.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 09:55 AM
RaffertyLFP: Full media contingent in oveflow. About 30 members of public now [via Twitter]

robynhood
05-07-2012, 09:56 AM
RaffertyLFP Full media contingent in oveflow. About 30 members of public now...well finally let this come to an end ...tweeter said defense should take half the day and than the Crown may proceed....we shall see...robynhood

Jezbel
05-07-2012, 10:00 AM
Just a story I thought I would share with you guys. Yesterday my family and I were returning from grocery shopping. We pulled into our yard and there is this little girl just standing there in my front yard. I was like "whose that kid?" My daughter says it is So and so from school ( this kid is 5). I was like okay go see her I will be right there and find out what is going on. So I come up and she was telling me she followed her dog into our yard and that no one is at her house. I told her well lets go see because we do not want to scare your family because they can not find you. So I take her home and low and behold her mom is sitting on her front porch drinking beer with her boyfriend while her husband is working out of town. She was like oh did she come for a visit? I said no she was in our yard when we returned home and I have no idea how long she was there. Mom replies well I was calling for her (which she was not) and I told her to stay in the yard so now she is going to be in trouble (WTH?). The woman new I was pi**ed off. I just walked away. My daughter who is 11 was so upset. She was like mom some bad people could have took her and did bad things to her, you should really tell on her mom. I explained that kids wander sometimes ( I believe all parents have expereinced some sort of fear) however what bothered me was she did not know she was gone and then proceeded to give the child trouble when she neglected to be a parent. The other problem is we live in the bush by a lake. My back yard has a drop off to the lake and she could have been seriously injured. OMG it makes me soooooooo mad!

Wow that is awful, I hope that kid does not get a beating for wandering away. For the mother to sit there and make out she was calling for her daughter, very maddening. Your daughter is smart, she obviously knows the dangers out there. I would be keeping an extra eye on that little girl.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:02 AM
RaffertyLFP: Court ready to resume. Jury still out

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:03 AM
...hmm hi N/t ..you were faster than me on tweeter ..I am on tweeter to help today too...wow this is so nerve wretching!!!!....robynhood...Please dear god may we all see Justice of Tori !...I feel for Tara and Rodney and all of TORI"S Family TODAY @ this moment ...robynhood!...May they know we all are standing with them and my heart is thumping LOUDLY....real nervous...robynhood!./.back to tweeter...see ya all ..I shall be posting and trying to help the BEST I CAN TODAY !...robynhood...oh tweeter said Court IS READY tO START>>>NOW!

jenniferleia
05-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Does anyone know if objections can be raised during closing arguments?

No, I believe they can say whatever they want. (meaning it is open for them to say whatever they feel they need to say).

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Still awaiting Jury to enter ...twiiter said...robynhood

Alison
05-07-2012, 10:05 AM
Wow that is awful, I hope that kid does not get a beating for wandering away. For the mother to sit there and make out she was calling for her daughter, very maddening. Your daughter is smart, she obviously knows the dangers out there. I would be keeping an extra eye on that little girl.

The mother is a nutcase, however if I called the authorities they would do nothing as she was a child who wandered. It was very hard to remain quiet and not say anything cause she is the type to fight. Not that I am physically afraid but I would be the one who got in trouble would be just my luck.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:06 AM
Jurors entering the courtroom.

RaffertyLFP: Jury coming in Dirk Derstine begins his closing

Mike Knoll: @guest - have updated our online story with a photo: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/07/19725376.html

Picture of Rafferty's Mother above

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:07 AM
RaffertyLFP Jury coming in Dirk Derstine begins his closing argument..robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:07 AM
RaffertyLFP: Justice Heeney cautions jury that closing arguments by defense Crown is not evidence

Heeney tells jurors they are in the argument portion of the case. Reminds them they are not evidence, just "brings evidence together".

Yody04
05-07-2012, 10:08 AM
Just a story I thought I would share with you guys. Yesterday my family and I were returning from grocery shopping. We pulled into our yard and there is this little girl just standing there in my front yard. I was like "whose that kid?" My daughter says it is So and so from school ( this kid is 5). I was like okay go see her I will be right there and find out what is going on. So I come up and she was telling me she followed her dog into our yard and that no one is at her house. I told her well lets go see because we do not want to scare your family because they can not find you. So I take her home and low and behold her mom is sitting on her front porch drinking beer with her boyfriend while her husband is working out of town. She was like oh did she come for a visit? I said no she was in our yard when we returned home and I have no idea how long she was there. Mom replies well I was calling for her (which she was not) and I told her to stay in the yard so now she is going to be in trouble (WTH?). The woman new I was pi**ed off. I just walked away. My daughter who is 11 was so upset. She was like mom some bad people could have took her and did bad things to her, you should really tell on her mom. I explained that kids wander sometimes ( I believe all parents have expereinced some sort of fear) however what bothered me was she did not know she was gone and then proceeded to give the child trouble when she neglected to be a parent. The other problem is we live in the bush by a lake. My back yard has a drop off to the lake and she could have been seriously injured. OMG it makes me soooooooo mad!

Did you ever think about becoming a Block Parent? Tori gave me the energy to make this program working in my community. I love it and it's nice to see how more and more Block Parent signs pop up in our community.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:09 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine's podium faces jurors - speaking to them directly

Derstine says the trial will soon be over, notes they must be eager to get back to regular lives.

He thanks jurors for their service.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine thanks the jury for their service - and their good citizenship

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:10 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the toughest part of their job is coming up - making a decision.

Derstine says their watching phase will soon be over. Their decision making phase will soon begin.

Derstine says different people seeing thing different ways is a strength of the jury system.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:12 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said jury thier collective wisdom is valuable " you see different things .. you can't hoodwink everyone"

Derstine explaining how the next few days will work to the jury.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury that their memory of the evidence is the most important

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 10:13 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said jury thier collective wisdom is valuable " you see different things .. you can't hoodwink everyone"

Derstine explaining how the next few days will work to the jury.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury that their memory of the evidence is the most important

Exactly Derstine...lol

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:14 AM
Derstine explaining first degree murder trials are settled by a jury. He says that's a freedom we enjoy in Canada.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine warms up by explaining the benefits of the jury system

Alison
05-07-2012, 10:15 AM
Did you ever think about becoming a Block Parent? Tori gave me the energy to make this program working in my community. I love it and it's nice to see how more and more Block Parent signs pop up in our community.

I would but I live in a rural community and their are only two children under the age of 10 in our neighbourhood. One is mine and the other is the little girl who was in our yard.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:15 AM
AveryFreeFMNews "You are the supreme judges of the facts in this case," Derstine tells the 12 jurors. #Rafferty...robynhood

Yody04
05-07-2012, 10:15 AM
Can anybody tell me where to find this refresh button?? I am a donkey when it comes to computers..lol

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:15 AM
Derstine says jury duty is an "awesome responsibility".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury they are acting as judges "this trial set against the backdrop of a unspeakable tragedy

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 10:16 AM
Can anybody tell me where to find this refresh button?? I am a donkey when it comes to computers..lol

F5 to refresh

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:17 AM
RaffertyLFP: "All too easy to let the horror of that day overwhelm this trial" says Dertstine urges them to be dispassionate

Derstine says the trial is set against the backdrop of an unspeakable tragedy.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks jurors to overlook Rafferty's "moral flaws"

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Yody ..it is the green arrows at the top..they make a kind of circle...beside where you enter the web page ...like www.websleuth.com....it is GREEN! ..robynhood

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Can anybody tell me where to find this refresh button?? I am a donkey when it comes to computers..lol

F5 I just learned that lolol

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:18 AM
He says evidence must be judged fairly, despite that tragedy.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine reminds jurors his client is presumed innocent in Canadian legal system unless proven otherwise

He says all accused are presumed innocent. That is not a gift bestowed on Michael Rafferty. All Canadians enjoy that right.

JayFriend
05-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Can anybody tell me where to find this refresh button?? I am a donkey when it comes to computers..lol

Depends on your browser, but the F5 key should work too.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:19 AM
AveryFreeFMNews "You are the supreme judges of the facts in this case," Derstine tells

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 10:20 AM
Derstine sounds like the crown. So far his words are damning to MR. IMO

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:20 AM
sorry that one did not work...destines tells Jury to ...OVERLOOK Rafferty's MORAL FLAWS...robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:20 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "it is too easy to leap to judgement" Crown must prove case beyond reasonable doubt - onus is all Crown

RaffertyLFP: Destine says defense does not have to prove anything or call witnesses - onus all on Crown

Yody04
05-07-2012, 10:20 AM
I would but I live in a rural community and their are only two children under the age of 10 in our neighbourhood. One is mine and the other is the little girl who was in are yard.

I would keep in eye on the little girl. If you're getting the feeling she is neglected it might be a good idea to inform children's aid. For the sake of the child before something bad happens.

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 10:21 AM
sorry that one did not work...destines tells Jury to ...OVERLOOK Rafferty's MORAL FLAWS...robynhood

I was thinking the same thing.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:22 AM
He says presumption of innocence only goes away if the crown proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Derstine agrees that is a hard standard to apply, as we don't do it in our day to day lives, even with major life decisions.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said "reasonable doubt" is not like everyday decisions - much higher standard

Allanae
05-07-2012, 10:22 AM
Can anybody tell me where to find this refresh button?? I am a donkey when it comes to computers..lol
Ctrl + R pushed at the same time works on my browser or the F5 button.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:22 AM
RaffertyLFP Derstine said "reasonable doubt" is not like everyday decisions - much higher standard..robynhood

Alison
05-07-2012, 10:23 AM
I would keep in eye on the little girl. If you're getting the feeling she is neglected it might be a good idea to inform children's aid. For the sake of the child before something bad happens.

They have been informed by many people. However there is a dad who when not out of town looks after her. Also a 17 year old who looks after her (and has missed school because mom is out partying with bf's while hubby is out of town. She is 35 not 19). So CAS tends not to bother because there are other responsible adults in the home.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:23 AM
He says jurors can't decided the case based on Rafferty "probably" being guilty.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury it is not their job to solve "murder mystery" only to judge Rafferty's guilt

snoofer
05-07-2012, 10:23 AM
Depends on your browser, but the F5 key should work too.

is totally loving this F5 key now

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:24 AM
He compares the system to a Perry Mason movie, but notes that kind of revelation isn't needed.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said it is tempting to convict someone simply because they were involved in some way "in horror of this event"

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:25 AM
indaNguyenPN Their verdict must be base on 3 legal principals: presumption of innocence, onus of proof and guilty beyond reasonable doubt #ToriStafford..robynhood

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:26 AM
RaffertyLFP Derstine said it is tempting to convict someone simply because they were involved in some way "in horror of this event"...robyhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:27 AM
Derstine tells the jury the difference between direct and circumstantial evidence.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges that he did not cross examine many witness but asks "what is there evidence really telling you"

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:28 AM
M980_Court Derstine tells the jury the difference between direct and circumstantial evidence....robynhood...IMO ..here we go ...this is getting me more nervous !..robynhood

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 10:29 AM
He compares the system to a Perry Mason movie, but notes that kind of revelation isn't needed.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said it is tempting to convict someone simply because they were involved in some way "in horror of this event"
What????

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:29 AM
LindaNguyenPN He says his job is not to prove anything to them. It's the Crown's job to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt #Rafferty..robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:30 AM
Derstine says he didn't "point his boney finger" at each witness and say they were lying. Notes he did that to one witness.

Derstine says circumstantial evidence may not say a lot about some aspects of the case. Notes it is fundamental in this case.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the testimony of Terri-Lynne McClintic and her credibility is central to the trial

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:32 AM
AM980_Court Derstine says he didn't "point his boney finger" at each witness and say they were lying. Notes he did that to one witness....IMO...WOW!..unbelieveable ..robynhood!

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:33 AM
RaffertyLFP Derstine said the testimony of Terri-Lynne McClintic and her credibility is central to the trial...robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:34 AM
He says McClintic is the only piece of direct evidence. Notes she may not be credible.

He notes the crown can reply to his closing, he can't reply to theirs.

He says he "will be dying a thousand deaths" wishing he can say something during the crown's closing.

Derstine says there may be reasonable doubt on certain portions of the evidence. Even if evidence to that wasn't called at trial.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:35 AM
AM980_Court He says he "will be dying a thousand deaths" wishing he can say something during the crown's closing...twiitwer is saying Defense wishes he could reply to Crown;s closing agrument...robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:35 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says he may be at a disadvantage because he is speaking first and can't reply to Crown's closing argument

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says if he can convince jury that McClinitic's testimony is not credible the Crown is only left with cirucumstantial evidence

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic is a "prolific liar"

Derstine says if they find McClintic's evidence is not worth listening to, they are only left with circumstantial evidence.

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 10:38 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says he may be at a disadvantage because he is speaking first and can't reply to Crown's closing argument

Are you kidding me???? He chose to have one witness that was a useless waste of time and now he's whining about it

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 10:39 AM
@AM980_Court
Derstine says if they find McClintic's evidence is not worth listening to, they are only left with circumstantial evidence.

I am sure they listened to some if not all of it. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:40 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine points out McClintic'c first interview with police - she appears cheerful, helpful "girl next door" just want to help

He says "to stand on any aspect of Terri-Lynne McClintic" is uncertain ground. She's a "prolific and accomplished liar".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges his client also claimed he wanted to find Tori but "his credibility is not an issue"

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:41 AM
He recalls her April 12th interview. Notes she lied and looked comfortable doing it. She mislead police often, he says.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said "nuggets of truth" in McClintic's testimony were not real just a "fantastic performance"

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:42 AM
AM980_Court McClintic has an "uncanny ability" to come up with a story or a lie. In some cases, details about the story may be the truth...robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:42 AM
McClintic has an "uncanny ability" to come up with a story or a lie. In some cases, details about the story may be the truth.

During the start of the May 19th statement, she still said she was innocent. Recalled doing oxy contin. Lie was detailed, Derstine notes.

McClintic never did those drugs, he says. But it's more than a "regular lie". It's carefully thought out.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
RaffertyLFP Derstine said "nuggets of truth" in McClintic's testimony were not real just a "fantastic performance"

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine points out McClintic'c first interview with police - she appears cheerful, helpful "girl next door" just want to help

He says "to stand on any aspect of Terri-Lynne McClintic" is uncertain ground. She's a "prolific and accomplished liar".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges his client also claimed he wanted to find Tori but "his credibility is not an issue"

What???? his credibility is not an issue?? omg please

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine points out McClintic'c first interview with police - she appears cheerful, helpful "girl next door" just want to help

He says "to stand on any aspect of Terri-Lynne McClintic" is uncertain ground. She's a "prolific and accomplished liar".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges his client also claimed he wanted to find Tori but "his credibility is not an issue"

Ummm....what?

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
LindaNguyenPN He calls McClintic's statements to police a "fantastic performance" resulting in a "careful fiction" #ToriStafford #Rafferty

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
McClintic has an "uncanny ability" to come up with a story or a lie. In some cases, details about the story may be the truth.

How does he know this about TLM? Does he know her personally? What evidence was presented that she has an uncanny ability to come up with a story or lie?

MOO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
She had a whole lie made up before going in there, he says. Calls her an "Oscar winning actor".

RaffertyLFP: Destine said McClintic mounted "well-thought out lies" like an Oscar-winning actor

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic denied killing Stafford for years and then changed her story

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:46 AM
AM980_Court McClintic never did those drugs, he says. But it's more than a "regular lie". It's carefully thought out.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
She had a whole lie made up before going in there, he says. Calls her an "Oscar winning actor".

RaffertyLFP: Destine said McClintic mounted "well-thought out lies" like an Oscar-winning actor

I guess she missed her calling in show business......NOT!!!

Derstine is going to drive me mental.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
AM980_Court He says for years, she maintained a lie that Rafferty had murdered Tori Stafford. Changed her story just before the trial.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
He says for years, she maintained a lie that Rafferty had murdered Tori Stafford. Changed her story just before the trial.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic claims she somehow surpressed memory of killing in her mind for years

McClintic said in her mind, she was innocent on April 12th, even after seeing CASS video. Derstine calls that "remarkable".

As Derstine speaks, Rafferty watches the jury.

Audio cuts out briefly on the 6th floor, but is back on.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic seems to be unable to distinguish truth or lies in her own mind

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
She had a whole lie made up before going in there, he says. Calls her an "Oscar winning actor".

RaffertyLFP: Destine said McClintic mounted "well-thought out lies" like an Oscar-winning actor

Really?..from a confession that sent her away for 25 years with no chance of getting off or out of it

Alison
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
The reason MR's credability is not an issue is because he never took the stand so therefore his credibility has never been attacked. JMO

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:47 AM
LindaNguyenPN He calls McClintic's statements to police a "fantastic performance" resulting in a "careful fiction" #ToriStafford #Rafferty

Okay Derstine so what is the truth? What Oscar winning performance did your client put on? Oh yeah that's right...he didn't want to tell us what happened.

MOO

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 10:48 AM
AM980_Court McClintic never did those drugs, he says. But it's more than a "regular lie". It's carefully thought out.

Never did what drugs??? Are you kidding me, take a look at her right nostril, she has been snorting drugs for a long time for it to look caved in like that.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 10:48 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on McClintic: “She is willfully, carefully and with real skill attempted and often succeeded in misleading police officers…”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstein: “Clearly Ms. McClintic is a prolific and accomplished liar”


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on McClintic: "“The question entirely about her is her reliability and her credibility, that’s the fundamental question.”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine going over direct vs. circumstantial evidence. Says not about evidence being reliable by itself, but “what does it add up to?”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “This is not a murder mystery”, tells jury they don't have to figure out exactly what happened to reach a verdict

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “This trial is set against the backdrop of an unspeakable tragedy”. Asks jury to judge this trial dispassionately #sl


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine to jury: “You have a better memory than all of us together. It is your memory that prevails.”


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine says everyone looks at things differently and each juror will have to rely on the 11 others to make a decision

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine begins by thanking the jury for their service. Says they'll have to go from spectators to decision makers

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Judge reminds jury that Lawyer's arguments are not evidence

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Jury is in. Judge tells jury that we've now entered the argument phase. Derstine begins

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:50 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic seem capable of believing her own lies are the truth

Derstine says if McClintic was telling the truth about her mental state, she's either lying or not a worthy witness.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "people like to protect themselves, to escape responsibility" she is lying to escape her own guilt

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:51 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "people like to protect themselves, to escape responsibility" she is lying to escape her own guilt

"If somebody actually believes a falsehood is the truth... What are you supposed to make of that?"

Derstine says she doesn't want to admit her moral culpability. When McClintic confessed she "savagely murdered that little girl" she was...

...Not protecting herself at all. That was one of the few times. Notes her other versions should be considered lies.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic admitted "she savagely murdered that little girl" - You should have no doubt she is actual murderer

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says statements made in other videotapes denying her guilt - weeping - just an act

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic not remorseful for murder - just that a child was involved

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:53 AM
RaffertyLFP Derstine says McClintic seems to be unable to distinguish truth or lies in her own mind via TWEETER ,,,!...hmm IMO...ok MR. Defense if she is such a liar ...IMO....why would Rafferty NOT take the satnd in his defense..iMo ..it is only his life that hangs in the balance...IMO..robynhood

Shasta
05-07-2012, 10:53 AM
The defence is spinning ... spinning like a whirling dervish. Every time defence mentions TLM's lies, I automatically think of all those people MTR lied to. JMO

JayFriend
05-07-2012, 10:54 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine points out McClintic'c first interview with police - she appears cheerful, helpful "girl next door" just want to help

He says "to stand on any aspect of Terri-Lynne McClintic" is uncertain ground. She's a "prolific and accomplished liar".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges his client also claimed he wanted to find Tori but "his credibility is not an issue"

Okay, this I don't understand. How can Rafferty's credibility not be an issue but TLM's credibility be the whole basis of the defence? Just because Rafferty didn't take the stand, we are to accept everything he said in police interviews to be the truth and if it obviously wasn't, we should not read anything into his lying? What a crock!

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 10:54 AM
I wonder if MTR mother was there when they showed the video with him at the detention centre and his behaviour.

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic seem capable of believing her own lies are the truth

Derstine says if McClintic was telling the truth about her mental state, she's either lying or not a worthy witness.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "people like to protect themselves, to escape responsibility" she is lying to escape her own guilt

So his closing argument is his opinion of TLM as a person with absolutely nothing to back it up?

MOO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
Derstine says her tears on May 19th should not mislead the jury.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic admitted that if the trial was held year earlier she would have accused Rafferty of murder

She said, in custody, she was not remorseful for her acts, only remorseful because it was a child.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine says McClintic is a good liar who knows how to use made up details to make what she was saying seem true

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He calls McClintic's statements to police a "fantastic performance" resulting in a "careful fiction"

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He says McClintic is a "prolific and accomplished liar" who repeatedly misled police in this investigation

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He says it is there job to assess McClintic's credibility and reliability

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine says there is only one fundamental direct piece of evidence in this case: the evidence of Terri-Lynne McClintic

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine explains difference between direct and circumstantial evidence

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He says his job is not to prove anything to them. It's the Crown's job to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Their verdict must be base on 3 legal principals: presumption of innocence, onus of proof and guilty beyond reasonable doubt

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Their job is not to judge #Rafferty's moral flaws. It's to decide his legal guilt, says Derstine

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine says that's why it's important that they are not "overwhelmed" by this tragedy. Jury needs to try this case dispassionately

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He calls #ToriStafford's death an "unspeakable tragedy" and an "unspeakable horror"

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine reminds jurors that his following arguments is his take on the evidence and not evidence itself

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He tells 12-member jury that their "watching phase" is over and now they have to go into the "decision-making phase"

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Defence lawyer Dirk Derstine is starting his closing arguments with a thank you to the jury

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 10:55 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on McClintic: “She is willfully, carefully and with real skill attempted and often succeeded in misleading police officers…”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstein: “Clearly Ms. McClintic is a prolific and accomplished liar”


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on McClintic: "“The question entirely about her is her reliability and her credibility, that’s the fundamental question.”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine going over direct vs. circumstantial evidence. Says not about evidence being reliable by itself, but “what does it add up to?”

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “This is not a murder mystery”, tells jury they don't have to figure out exactly what happened to reach a verdict

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “This trial is set against the backdrop of an unspeakable tragedy”. Asks jury to judge this trial dispassionately #sl


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine to jury: “You have a better memory than all of us together. It is your memory that prevails.”
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine says everyone looks at things differently and each juror will have to rely on the 11 others to make a decision

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine begins by thanking the jury for their service. Says they'll have to go from spectators to decision makers

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Judge reminds jury that Lawyer's arguments are not evidence

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Jury is in. Judge tells jury that we've now entered the argument phase. Derstine begins

If that's the case he will never see the light of day again Derstine because I know I will never forget

Shasta
05-07-2012, 10:56 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "people like to protect themselves, to escape responsibility" she is lying to escape her own guilt

Except that, she took the max for her responsibility in the crime.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:56 AM
M980_Court McClintic said "if this trial had taken place a year ago" she would have said Rafferty is the killer. But what will she say next year?

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 10:56 AM
McClintic said "if this trial had taken place a year ago" she would have said Rafferty is the killer. But what will she say next year?

We're going on break for 20 minutes.

RaffertyLFP: The court takes morning break - 20 minutes

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 10:56 AM
Okay, this I don't understand. How can Rafferty's credibility not be an issue but TLM's credibility be the whole basis of the defence? Just because Rafferty didn't take the stand, we are to accept everything he said in police interviews to be the truth and if it obviously wasn't, we should not read anything into his lying? What a crock!

Didn't MR lie about knowing TLM as well as he does?

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 10:57 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “Over and over again what becomes plain is she’s lying because she does not want ot admit her moral culpability"


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The only truth from McClintic is that she killed #ToriStafford by "bashing in the little girl's head"

robynhood
05-07-2012, 10:57 AM
M980_Court McClintic said "if this trial had taken place a year ago" she would have said Rafferty is the killer. But what will she say next year?...also said court us taking a 20 min recess!

Dmman
05-07-2012, 10:57 AM
TLM has admitted her guilt...MR didn't even defend his innocence. I have all I can do to stomach reading the tweets. I can't wait for the crown to start.

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:57 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine says "people like to protect themselves, to escape responsibility" she is lying to escape her own guilt

"If somebody actually believes a falsehood is the truth... What are you supposed to make of that?"

Derstine says she doesn't want to admit her moral culpability. When McClintic confessed she "savagely murdered that little girl" she was...

...Not protecting herself at all. That was one of the few times. Notes her other versions should be considered lies.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic admitted "she savagely murdered that little girl" - You should have no doubt she is actual murderer

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says statements made in other videotapes denying her guilt - weeping - just an act

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic not remorseful for murder - just that a child was involved

Once again, hearsay with no context. How would the jury know that she wasn't saying this remorsefully to her godmother if they didn't hear the tape or the godmother herself on the stand.

MOO

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 10:58 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Court takes 20-minute recess.

Kamille
05-07-2012, 10:59 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “Over and over again what becomes plain is she’s lying because she does not want ot admit her moral culpability"

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The only truth from McClintic is that she killed #ToriStafford by "bashing in the little girl's head"

Sha admitted it by confessing and accepting a first degree murder charge.
In her original story, she could have tried to plea down to accesory.

MOO

Kamille
05-07-2012, 11:00 AM
M980_Court McClintic said "if this trial had taken place a year ago" she would have said Rafferty is the killer. But what will she say next year?

She didn't want to testify so a year ago she would have done the same thing if this was going to trial. Please.

MOO

Oldsoul2
05-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “Over and over again what becomes plain is she’s lying because she does not want ot admit her moral culpability"

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The only truth from McClintic is that she killed #ToriStafford by "bashing in the little girl's head"

Excuse me??? She testified in front of a thousands maybe hundreads of thousands of people following this case, took 25 years...and IMO admitted to the final blows which I'm still on the fence about..what has MR done besides deny every part he played in it other than cleaning up a crime..um...he didn't commit???

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Derstine says her tears on May 19th should not mislead the jury.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic admitted that if the trial was held year earlier she would have accused Rafferty of murder

She said, in custody, she was not remorseful for her acts, only remorseful because it was a child.

Mistake on his part for mentioning that she was only remorseful because it was a child. JMO

She said she didnt wake up knowing she was going to kill a child and she said she was remorseful because it was a child. She had no intention of killing TS, she was provoked and manipulated and lost it. But I guess she would have done that by herself anyways right? ya right

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:01 AM
....OMg I cannot wait ...IMO the crown will destory all this ..IMO they DID produce the evidence...IMO does the defense have amnesia ...what about the forensic proof...and who was doing TONS of lieing rafferty IMO..where is back seat of the car if he is innocence that would certain prove things????.......lets remember Rafferty;s visits to terri lynn ..wow did he ever look remorseful....OMG is all I have to say!

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:03 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine: “Over and over again what becomes plain is she’s lying because she does not want ot admit her moral culpability"


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The only truth from McClintic is that she killed #ToriStafford by "bashing in the little girl's head"

ummm ya, hello?? She did confess to the murder serving a 25yrs sentence for her part in the crime....... argh!!

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Excuse me??? She testified in front of a thousands maybe hundreads of thousands of people following this case, took 25 years...and IMO admitted to the final blows which I'm still on the fence about..what has MR done besides deny every part he played in it other than cleaning up a crime..um...he didn't commit???

Totally agree I am still on the fence about that too..

taagean
05-07-2012, 11:06 AM
I hope the jury is thinking the same as we are.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:08 AM
i hope the jury is thinking the same as we are.

me tooo!!!!

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:08 AM
From what I am reading, Derstine is referencing a small piece of evidence the jury has already heard previously, with almost every sentence.

He is using established evidence to question the credibility of TLM.

Examples

TLM testified she was heavily using drugs that day, and her memory of some of the events is foggy...........flashbacks etc.

TLM did appear cheerful and helpful in the first LE interview.

MR's character is not in question. He didn't testify for the Crown.

After Derstine is finished and the Crown begins...........they are going to have to somehow try to restore some credibility to TLM and her testimony, because Derstine is right..........without her testimony the Crown doesn't have enough for the jury to convict.

JMO...............

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Just some of Rafferty's LIES
-his mom lives with him (he told TLM)
-he takes care of his mom
-TLM NOT his girlfriend (he laughed to LE about that possibility)
-he buys oxy for his sick mother
-told LE on audio he worked under table -backtracked when they wanted to know where
-told LE he didn't know anyone in Woodstock
-inferred he was drug sober - but CM sure wasn't (audio to LE)
-never been to London with gf only his mother
-acted like he didn't know TS name to LE on audio
-told LE didn't know gf's last names
-told one woman he'd just bought his mother a house
-he had colon cancer
-was in a car accident
-lost a stepson (who allegedly had just died two weeks before Tori)
-had a tough childhood??
-hinted at affluence
-profligate womanizer (had them feel they were the only one)
-Rafferty was a deeply shocked witness to a disturbing crime
-said he was out looking for Tori "He said he was searching around the train tracks."
-horrified bystander
-Rafferty was on a three-person team that did work at the Riverstown Waste Facility, five kilometres from where the young girl's body was found.
-said: he was not guilty
-He was obsessed with the Tori Stafford disappearance, she said, "was constantly checking the news for it," and once told her "he knew all the inside information" —
-that Tori's mother had only recently got the little girl back in her care that the kidnapping "was all about drugs."
-said: TLM driving force behind Tori Stafford's kidnapping...BIG Rafferty lie here
- "the girl was in the car for a drug debt"
-said: that McClintic "offered" Tori "to him sexually...and he refused
-said:she ordered him away from the car and then killed her.
-lied about what happened to the back seat of his car---> "spring pickup"
- chat about "abducting kids It was he who raised the topic, she said. "He said how people take kids, abduct them, and they (the kids) grow up thinking they're (the kidnappers) like their real parents,"
-accused LE of spitting on TLM and depriving her of sleep

"jobs" Rafferty said he had
what did he actually did do as a living??
-Rafferty's real job: was living off the avails of prostitution
Mr. Rafferty essentially pimped out one girlfriend and proceeded to drain her of close to $17,000

-He got one credit in his grade nine year at that school. No information of any other credits at any other high schools has been found
-Cruikshank employed Rafferty from 2003 to 2005 as landscaper and snow shoveling. Rafferty worked with a team, licence suspended at time


-Contractor
-Landscaper
-worked a better beef in Guelph (slaughterhouse)
-Dance Instuctor
-was said to be in college working towards a Veterinary Assistant
-Caretaker (for his Mother) & TLM's Mother
-Possible drug traffic
-As MR stated in the LE interview, he also worked at Glen Abbey.
-And I believe he was a chef, trained at George Brown.
-working under the table
-Dance Instructor
-Had his own Contracting Business
-Snow Plower
-HR-hiring person for construction sites
-worked @ Juvenile Detention Centre(London on Oxford St)
-Teacher Dance Class
-Ballroom Dance Teacher
-working in the home renovation business

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:10 AM
1:09
Comment From Adam
I'm Canadian...but working/living in US - does that count? ;)
11:08
Comment From Sheena
My inlaws are following from Philadelphia
11:08
Comment From PaaMul
watching from Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico....
11:08
Comment From Mary
Following from Buffalo
11:07
Comment From Scott
Following from Virginia.
11:07
Mike Knoll: @Tiff - maybe they'll speak up here? any americans?
11:06
Comment From @Tiff
Can you tell if you have American followers on this feed?
11:05
Mike Knoll: @alison - 5,846 right now.
11:04
Comment From Alison
How many are following your coverage online this morning?

Kamille
05-07-2012, 11:10 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on McClintic: “She is willfully, carefully and with real skill attempted and often succeeded in misleading police officers…”


Yeah she misled them right to Victoria's body and a whole carpload of circumstantial evidence against his client.

MOO

Dmman
05-07-2012, 11:11 AM
I hope the jury is thinking the same as we are.

Remember, they've heard so much more than us. And all the evidence. Very up close & personal information. They are the absolute co-stars of this trial...right along with Victoria Stafford. They are her voice. A judge for her!

I pray they make the RIGHT decision. Because hold onto your hats, there's going to be some bombshells revealed once e jury is sequestered!!! JMO

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:11 AM
Mistake on his part for mentioning that she was only remorseful because it was a child. JMO

She said she didnt wake up knowing she was going to kill a child and she said she was remorseful because it was a child. She had no intention of killing TS, she was provoked and manipulated and lost it. But I guess she would have done that by herself anyways right? ya right

TLM admitted to that statement when questioned by Derstine about her conversation with her godmother.

She said she would murder again, but only regretting the young age of TS.

Powerful evidence to prove TLM has no remorse.

JMO.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:13 AM
From what I am reading, Derstine is referencing a small piece of evidence the jury has already heard previously, with almost every sentence.

He is using established evidence to question the credibility of TLM.

Examples

TLM testified she was heavily using drugs that day, and her memory of some of the events is foggy...........flashbacks etc.

TLM did appear cheerful and helpful in the first LE interview.

MR's character is not in question. He didn't testify for the Crown.

After Derstine is finished and the Crown begins...........they are going to have to somehow try to restore some credibility to TLM and her testimony, because Derstine is right..........without her testimony the Crown doesn't have enough for the jury to convict.

JMO...............


How is his character not in question? He was there when the murder happened and carried on as if it hadnt, went to see her in jail like it was nothing, lied to the police about how well he knew her, told people she was counselling her in the detention centre.... um I can go on but I know I dont need to.

She confessed to the murder and if this is all he has this is bad way of going about his defence. In fact its pathetic.

Well I guess its a good thing they are going to use her testimony as evidence.

They both lied, he chose to be a coward and the jury will see this.

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:13 AM
From what I am reading, Derstine is referencing a small piece of evidence the jury has already heard previously, with almost every sentence.

He is using established evidence to question the credibility of TLM.

Examples

TLM testified she was heavily using drugs that day, and her memory of some of the events is foggy...........flashbacks etc.

TLM did appear cheerful and helpful in the first LE interview.

MR's character is not in question. He didn't testify for the Crown.

After Derstine is finished and the Crown begins...........they are going to have to somehow try to restore some credibility to TLM and her testimony, because Derstine is right..........without her testimony the Crown doesn't have enough for the jury to convict.

JMO...............

I believe that TLM's credibility is established since there is coroborating evidence (even if circumstantial) to confirm to what she has testified to. If I was a jury member I would reason that yes she did lie, but however she did not lie about everything. Therefore I would add the evidence in conjunction with her testimony, that reinforces the evidence, and make my decision based on that. JMO

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:14 AM
TLM admitted to that statement when questioned by Derstine about her conversation with her godmother.

She said she would murder again, but only regretting the young age of TS.

Powerful evidence to prove TLM has no remorse.

JMO.

Also proves that she wouldnt have killed a child and she had no intention of doing so. JMO

KMouse
05-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Lets hope the jury kept a bingo card of MR's lies. I know I could have jumped up and shouted Bingo!! a few times myself.

We have direct testimony from MR himself. We have the audio of his police interview, jail visits, his cell phone messages.

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Oh and BTW TLM is not on trial MR is. The defence is just trying to divert the blame back to TLM. The bottom line is he participated and therfore is guilty!

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
I hope the jury is thinking the same as we are.

Thank you tagean ..I agree STRONGLY ..! I pray they are thinking like us ....! I cannot IMagine how Tara and rodney and the rest of Tori's family ...are listening to this...

IMO ...I kind of knew the defense would be really overdoing ....TLM crediablity...Imo that is all they have as the defense presented nothing!

...and I feel like vomitting when Derstine said " It is not my Job to prove my client innocence...ok that is our Judical system BUT...I certainly feel he should have produced WHY we should believe MR is innocent ...like what happened that night ...Mr. defense ???

...are we to really BELIEVE that MR> took a walk without his BLACKBERRY on to tell ANYONE...I am in a mess of a situation...Imo ..this whole STORY ( defense ) makes no sense for someone who is CLAIMing they are innocent ....TLM pleaded gulity and Mr was there ...WHAT the heck was he really doing???....a very hmmm moment..IMO >>>MR's beloved phone is NEVER OFF>>>???....my strong feelings ..robynhood...

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
The crown is going to crush this defence. TLM's a liar... Whoopty dooo!! So is his client.

brighidin
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
TLM admitted to that statement when questioned by Derstine about her conversation with her godmother.

She said she would murder again, but only regretting the young age of TS.

Powerful evidence to prove TLM has no remorse.

JMO.

Who cares? She is in jail for first degree murder. She isn't on trial here. He can question her credibility all he wants, but much of her testimony was corroborated by other evidence. He is harping on TLM because that is all Rafferty has. Weak closing argument so far.

imo

Shasta
05-07-2012, 11:17 AM
1:09
Comment From Adam
I'm Canadian...but working/living in US - does that count? ;)
11:08
Comment From Sheena
My inlaws are following from Philadelphia
11:08
Comment From PaaMul
watching from Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico....
11:08
Comment From Mary
Following from Buffalo
11:07
Comment From Scott
Following from Virginia.
11:07
Mike Knoll: @Tiff - maybe they'll speak up here? any americans?
11:06
Comment From @Tiff
Can you tell if you have American followers on this feed?
11:05
Mike Knoll: @alison - 5,846 right now.
11:04
Comment From Alison
How many are following your coverage online this morning?

I'm following twitter via websleuths from Riyadh, Kindgom of Saudi Arabia. Hope that counts. lol

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:19 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine points out McClintic'c first interview with police - she appears cheerful, helpful "girl next door" just want to help

He says "to stand on any aspect of Terri-Lynne McClintic" is uncertain ground. She's a "prolific and accomplished liar".

RaffertyLFP: Derstine acknowledges his client also claimed he wanted to find Tori but "his credibility is not an issue"

His credibility is not an issue? He said that he walked away....He is a prolific liar himself and then some. MOO

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:19 AM
Also proves that she wouldnt have killed a child and she had no intention of doing so. JMO

She wouldn't have that regret if she didn't do it. JMO

Really was she responding to killing a child or was she responding to getting a child for MR to rape?

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:20 AM
How is his character not in question? He was there when the murder happened and carried on as if it hadnt, went to see her in jail like it was nothing, lied to the police about how well he knew her, told people she was counselling her in the detention centre.... um I can go on but I know I dont need to.

She confessed to the murder and if this is all he has this is bad way of going about his defence. In fact its pathetic.

Well I guess its a good thing they are going to use her testimony as evidence.

They both lied, he chose to be a coward and the jury will see this.

Regardless of what people may think, or long lists of character flaws.......none of it is relevant.

MR's character is not on trial.

Can the Crown prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did the crime.

JMO.............

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:21 AM
If guilty does he gets sentenced immediatly

Mike Knoll: @guest - yes. If guilty of 1st-degree murder, the sentence is set in stone - LIfe with no chance of parole for 25 years.

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:23 AM
Also proves that she wouldnt have killed a child and she had no intention of doing so. JMO

Except she did kill a child.........and had previously beat up other inmates at the youth detention centers. As she complained about being held with much younger inmates, one can conclude the inmates she was beating up were much younger than she was.

TLM had no reservations towards beating up the weaker, including her own mother.

JMO

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:23 AM
Regardless of what people may think, or long lists of character flaws.......none of it is relevant.

MR's character is not on trial.

Can the Crown prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did the crime.

JMO.............

Innocent or not, MR helped cover up a murder to a young child and then carried on with life like nothing happened. I sure hope he doesn't get off because i don't want him around where i live. That is for sure. He is guilty of covering up a crime and i hope he gets 25 years just for that alone.

This is not a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. JMO

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:24 AM
Regardless of what people may think, or long lists of character flaws.......none of it is relevant.

MR's character is not on trial.

Can the Crown prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did the crime.

JMO.............

His character or "sexual appetite" shows how he could do this crime no problem. The rest of the facts, testimony evidence shows he did it. His character does matter.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:24 AM
Regardless of what people may think, or long lists of character flaws.......none of it is relevant.

MR's character is not on trial.

Can the Crown prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did the crime.

JMO.............

No worries Ardy he will be found guilty and its not his character flaws its the fact he is a professed liar as well, and danced with the devil after it was done. He will be dancing with the devil soon enough.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Except she did kill a child.........and had previously beat up other inmates at the youth detention centers. As she complained about being held with much younger inmates, one can conclude the inmates she was beating up were much younger than she was.

TLM had no reservations towards beating up the weaker, including her own mother.

JMO

Again she said she killed her, but she is a liar right? You believe that but none of her other statements?? <modsnip>

Just in case you didnt know they could not tell who killed her. So what liar are you going to believe??

BorgQueen
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Never did what drugs??? Are you kidding me, take a look at her right nostril, she has been snorting drugs for a long time for it to look caved in like that.

Was it not mentioned at some point (terrible at keeping track of these things, sorry) that she was doing drugs by age 8? I agree about the nostril. Cocaine does that. A few others I can't recall, too. Not sure about oxy, though.



JMO

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Except she did kill a child.........and had previously beat up other inmates at the youth detention centers. As she complained about being held with much younger inmates, one can conclude the inmates she was beating up were much younger than she was.

TLM had no reservations towards beating up the weaker, including her own mother.

JMO

You know I really do not blame her for beating her own mother. This woman subjected her to abuse for many years. She also burned her with a cigarette. You can only abuse someone so long before they strike back. I have no pitty for CM as she is the reason TLM turned out to be the monster she is. JMO.

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:26 AM
Who cares? She is in jail for first degree murder. She isn't on trial here. He can question her credibility all he wants, but much of her testimony was corroborated by other evidence. He is harping on TLM because that is all Rafferty has. Weak closing argument so far.

imo

If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:27 AM
Was it not mentioned at some point (terrible at keeping track of these things, sorry) that she was doing drugs by age 8? I agree about the nostril. Cocaine does that. A few others I can't recall, too. Not sure about oxy, though.



JMO

Yes she started smoking weed at 8yrs old. Also if she was crushing oxy's and snorting them that would probably have the same effect as coke on the nostrils. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:27 AM
If found guilty, can Rafferty be declared a dangerous offender immediately or does that have to happen at a later time?

11:27 Mike Knoll: @guest - that would be a separate hearing. But, if Rafferty is guilty, it seems unlikely that dangerous offender status would apply. He would be in jail for life.

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:27 AM
It will be interesting to hear what MTR's mom will say if she speaks after the trial is over. I wonder if she will appologize to Tori's parents for her son's actions--either way the verdict goes, he was a party to this crime.

If his mom wants a life--she should show her support to Tori's family; otherwise, she may as well go into hiding herself because life will be difficult.MOO

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:28 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........

He wont convince the jury. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:28 AM
RaffertyLFP: Jury back in Derstine resumes closing argument

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says he will talk about the "engine" of the events the day Tori was killed

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said we McClintic may appear to be a meek woman on the stand but the objective evidence points to her

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:28 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........


What?!!! They have cell phone pings, they have mixed blood, they have the hair dye, they have him on tape. I am not sure how you can disregard so much evidence? Also the evidence reinforces TLM's testimony.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:28 AM
RaffertyLFP Jury back in Derstine resumes closing argument...here we go again

snoofer
05-07-2012, 11:30 AM
Also proves that she wouldnt have killed a child and she had no intention of doing so. JMO

yes and apparently even defense believes that...MOO did he just shoot his own client in the foot? JMO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:30 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the CASS video is conclusive proof that McClintic abducted Tori

RaffertyLFP: Destrine said he will not go through all the phone records and other circumstantial evidence but asks jury to consider what they mean

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:31 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the CASS video is conclusive proof that McClintic abducted Tori

SO? She may have been instructed by Mr. Wonderful MTR.

snoofer
05-07-2012, 11:31 AM
Lets hope the jury kept a bingo card of MR's lies. I know I could have jumped up and shouted Bingo!! a few times myself.

We have direct testimony from MR himself. We have the audio of his police interview, jail visits, his cell phone messages.

yes and that is all evidence.....defense said crown only presented one piece of somewhat evidence in TLM...that is not true MOO

Ardy
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Again she said she killed her, but she is a liar right? You believe that but none of her other statements?? <modsnip>

Just in case you didnt know they could not tell who killed her. So what liar are you going to believe??

Actually, I do believe there is circumstantial evidence that shows TLM did swing the hammer.

The pathologist said the claw end of the hammer was used several times.

That indicates TLM swung the hammer..........as MR knew the proper way to swing a hammer.

TLM only confessed to the murder because she didn't know if LE had recovered the hammer with her fingerprints all over it. She thought by confessing she could avoid testifying at MR's trial.

I can believe that is why she changed her testimony on who killed TS, or believe she had an overwhelming urge to confess after 3 years.

JMO........

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
RaffertyLFP Destrine said he will not go through all the phone records and other circumstantial evidence but asks jury to consider what they mean

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Derstine telling the jury about McClintic being the "engine" behind the events of April 8th.

Derstine asks jury to "think about me" when evidence is shown in jury room. Says again, only direct evidence comes from McClintic.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the Home Depot shows McClinitic buying items and only her word that Rafferty knew

snoofer
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the CASS video is conclusive proof that McClintic abducted Tori

RaffertyLFP: Destrine said he will not go through all the phone records and other circumstantial evidence but asks jury to consider what they mean

and into HIS awaiting car MOO

brighidin
05-07-2012, 11:33 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........

I don't agree. there is plenty of evidence available, including his interview which is peppered with lies and CYA'ing, DNA, videos, and phone info that places him in the area, and with his co-accused.

The defense needs the jury to disregard TLM, but the crown doesn't need them to accept her with open arms. He is pretty much SOL.

imo

KMouse
05-07-2012, 11:33 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........

The jury can disregard TLM's testimony that she killed Tori and if they do that who does it leave?

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:33 AM
Brings up Home Depot, notes McClintic bought the "murder tools", not Rafferty.

Derstine says those guilty of a crime must have a specific mindset, and then commit the act.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says someone on trial needs to both have a guilty intent and to do the act to be convicted

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Actually, I do believe there is circumstantial evidence that shows TLM did swing the hammer.

The pathologist said the claw end of the hammer was used several times.

That indicates TLM swung the hammer..........as MR knew the proper way to swing a hammer.

TLM only confessed to the murder because she didn't know if LE had recovered the hammer with her fingerprints all over it. She thought by confessing she could avoid testifying at MR's trial.

I can believe that is why she changed her testimony on who killed TS, or believe she had an overwhelming urge to confess after 3 years.

JMO........

NOTHING proves who swung the hammer....... even the experts said so. <modsnip>. Women know how to swing hammers too.

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:34 AM
yes and that is all evidence.....defense said crown only presented one piece of somewhat evidence in TLM...that is not true MOO

I hope the Crown is taking notes....They can close down Derstine's closing argument in the first minute of their closing argument.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He says he will now repeat who he thinks the "engine" is in this abduction and killing: Terri-Lynne McClintic

4m Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Derstine will now continue with his summation following the morning break

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:35 AM
SO? She may have been instructed by Mr. Wonderful MTR.

That is where the jury comes in as MR is pleading innocent to kidnapping as well as the other charges. IMO

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:35 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Court back from recess: Derstine says objective evidence points to McClintic. Says court only has her word on what happened

brighidin
05-07-2012, 11:36 AM
RaffertyLFP Destrine said he will not go through all the phone records and other circumstantial evidence but asks jury to consider what they mean

No kidding he won't. You can bet that if they were helpful to MR in the least that Derstine would be going through them like a mother with a fine-tooth comb on a lice filled kid's head.

Hmm, not my finest analogy, but you get my point. He's not going to go over them because they help the crown not the defense.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:36 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine on Home Depot video. Says objectively shows McClintic buying murder weapon. Only her word says #Rafferty knew what she did

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:36 AM
Derstine suggests driving someone to a crime does not make a person guilty if they knew nothing of the crime.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury that an accomplice in a crime must have "signed up" for a specific crime - not responsible for different crime

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:37 AM
Brings up Home Depot, notes McClintic bought the "murder tools", not Rafferty.

Derstine says those guilty of a crime must have a specific mindset, and then commit the act.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says someone on trial needs to both have a guilty intent and to do the act to be convicted

And Rafferty opened the trunk for her--why? The items were small enough to keep in the car. And why didn't he go in with her? He is just an innocent Dupe, right? Seems he knew how to dupe a lot of people including TLM. Didn't TLM call him T'z man on her cell phone. Well it seems TLM would do anything for her "man". MOO

KMouse
05-07-2012, 11:37 AM
If Necro is mentioned I am going to drink.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:37 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
McClintic was the one who kidnapped #toristafford and bought the "murder tools" used to kill the little girl, he says

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:38 AM
M980_Court Derstine suggests driving someone to a crime does not make a person guilty if they knew nothing of the crime.

Allanae
05-07-2012, 11:38 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........
They have Tori's blood in his car, a missing backseat which has evidence it was cut, video of Tori and TLM getting into his car in the parking lot, and have MR with Tori while she was kidnapped and his cell phone pings in the area she was killed. That is enough evidence for me to convict. He may not have raped her, he may not have dealt the final blows but he was with Tori while she was kidnapped and murdered and did nothing to stop it. He helped cover it up and acted like he had no knowledge of anything after wards.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:38 AM
If Necro is mentioned I am going to drink.

I'll join you!!

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:38 AM
Derstine suggests driving someone to a crime does not make a person guilty if they knew nothing of the crime.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury that an accomplice in a crime must have "signed up" for a specific crime - not responsible for different crime

What other business did either one of them have to be in Mount Forest?

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:39 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said Crown must prove that Rafferty did something that led to death of Tori and he did it with intent

The guilty mind aspect must also be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:39 AM
M980_Court The guilty mind aspect must also be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:39 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine tells jury that an accomplice in a crime must have "signed up" for a specific crime - not responsible for different crime i [via Twitter]



hahaha.....a legal contract? hahahaha

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:39 AM
If Necro is mentioned I am going to drink.

Cheers!! LOL you know we are going to hear it so I will start pouring my drink right now :)

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:40 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said jury must be convinced that Rafferty knew what was going on "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Derstine suggests the "guilty mind" aspect is key. Notes Rafferty didn't know about the kidnapping.

Shasta
05-07-2012, 11:40 AM
No kidding he won't. You can bet that if they were helpful to MR in the least that Derstine would be going through them like a mother with a fine-tooth comb on a lice filled kid's head.

Hmm, not my finest analogy, but you get my point. He's not going to go over them because they help the crown not the defense.

brighidin, very good observation (and colourful analogy)!

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:40 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
McClintic was the one who kidnapped #toristafford and bought the "murder tools" used to kill the little girl, he says

So he is guilty then because he gave her the MONEY to buy the MURDER TOOLS!!!! OMG

Allanae
05-07-2012, 11:41 AM
Actually, I do believe there is circumstantial evidence that shows TLM did swing the hammer.

The pathologist said the claw end of the hammer was used several times.

That indicates TLM swung the hammer..........as MR knew the proper way to swing a hammer.


Hammers are for nailing nails, not killing children. So even if someone used the hammer non-claw side to kill someone it was not used properly! That means nothing. Apparently the claw did what the murderer wanted it to do.....

JMO of course.

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:41 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine tells jury that a fundamental question is what was in #Rafferty's mind when events took place.



<shudder>

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:41 AM
RaffertyLFP: Rafferty said McClintic knew that the CASS and Home Depot made her "deeply enmeshed" in case

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic has an "alarming propensity for violence"

McClintic was self serving, he says. Even though she pleaded guilty, she lied to police and at trial.

When she told police Rafferty hit Tori with a hammer, the lies were detailed, Derstine notes.

He brings up McClintic's history of violence, despite how she appeared in court.

Dmman
05-07-2012, 11:41 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said Crown must prove that Rafferty did something that led to death of Tori and he did it with intent

The guilty mind aspect must also be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

How about he drove the car there??!!!

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:42 AM
IMO ...wow! ..explain MR gym bag please Mr. defense ..how does tori's blood and MR. sperm ( that forensiac evidence) ...just appear on back door of your Clent;s honda car..IMo ...I feel there needs to be an explanation????...my strong opinion ..or is the JURY AExpected to IGNORE THIS ONE...my thoughts ???

gbay
05-07-2012, 11:42 AM
If Derstine convinces the jury to disregard TLM's testimony as unreliable........the Crown doesn't have much else to convict.

JMO.........

The crowns case was based on actual evidence backing up TLM's testimony so I am hopeful that the jury will not/ can not disregard all the evidence. Derstine has not presented any real evidence to support his statement. They are just statements!! Who will the jury believe ..we will soon see!!

Flowercb
05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
If Necro is mentioned I am going to drink.

Derstine is saving the Necro music for the end, as a little parting music. lol. I know the Necro obsession is actually laughable. MOO.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
RaffertyLFP: Rafferty said McClintic seems like a "nice young woman" but capable of savage violence

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said McClintic's journal is "sickeningly violent"

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Jury needs to ask themselves whether #Rafferty knew what McClintic was really doing when he drove her and #ToriStafford, says Derstine

greenthumb
05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
NOTHING proves who swung the hammer....... even the experts said so. <modsnip>. Women know how to swing hammers too.

Wish I could thank you more than once for this!

I'm not quite certain that there is a 'proper' way to swing a hammer to kill a child, is there? I think that in a moment such as that, whatever darn way one happened to grab the hammer would suffice... I think it is illogical to suggest that someone in the act of beating a child with a hammer would care about proper technique.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:44 AM
McClintic's thoughts are "sickeningly violent" brings up her letters.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine reads from McClintic's journal "loved to see blood pour" - Murderous *****es

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Hold on one second I need to go barf!!! .................................................. ....

This guy is killing me right now making it look as if his client was this innocent bystander that was duped and she was this giant female killer and he was scared of her... hold on barf time again!!!

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:45 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine talks about McClintic's propensity for violence. Calls her Jekyll-Hyde like, presents one way, but truth is otherwise #sl

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:45 AM
Derstine says he won't read all her letters, but reads one. Talks of blood pouring, being "murderous *****ez".


Mike Knoll: 11:41 and 11:43 tweets attributed to Rafferty, should be attributed to Derstine.

11:41RaffertyLFP: Rafferty said McClintic knew that the CASS and Home Depot made her "deeply enmeshed" in case

11:43RaffertyLFP: Rafferty said McClintic seems like a "nice young woman" but capable of savage violence

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:46 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine reads from McClintic's journal "loved to see blood pour" crushing and dismembering bodies

Letter says she's "thirsty as a mother****er". Says she wanted to take a person, "f***ing mutilate them" and "smash their skull apart".

Rafferty looks disturbed as the letter is read.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:46 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine talks about McClintic's propensity for violence. Calls her Jekyll-Hyde like, presents one way, but truth is otherwise #sl

hmmm is he a psychologist now???

nobodyzgirl
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
His credibility is not an issue? He said that he walked away....He is a prolific liar himself and then some. MOO

He never said that, the defence "suggested" a different theory, which is actually not fact. Right at the beginning of Derstine's closing he reminds the jury:

Derstine telegraphs that he may present alternative theories, but that he's not necessarily saying what happened #Rafferty

http://twitter.com/#!/AdrianMorrow

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
..I am having a hard time reading tweeter ...ya me too feel like barfing..crazyladi...meet ya in a washroom...omg ..my opinions too ..robynhood

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine reading a graphic section from McClintic's journals where she describes in graphic detail mutilating a complete stranger



Hold on to your hats folks, NECRO is coming up....I can feel it. Where are the drinks?

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:47 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty looks disturbed as the letter is read.

1m AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Letter says she's "thirsty as a mother****er". Says she wanted to take a person, "****ing mutilate them" and "smash their skull apart".

tmhco
05-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Underwhelmed to say the least. I expected more from the defence. Everything he is saying can be used against MR as well. He flat out lied to the investigators. JMO

~n/t~
05-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
He tells jury to not be fooled by her gentle, soft-spoken persona while she was on the stand. Derstine now reading out letters

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Letter continues. Very disturbing.

Derstine reads another letter from May 14th, 2008. Discusses murdering an enemies family, and rape.

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:49 AM
I hate them both just so much...

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:50 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
It ends in "ha ha".

One letter says "wipe the evidence from the murder scene". Just should "note that phrase", Derstine says.

Other writings are in her own notebooks.

The crown may tell the jury those are just thoughts, Derstine disagrees. McClintic said they were thoughts on the stand.

crazyladi
05-07-2012, 11:51 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty looks disturbed as the letter is read.

1m AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Letter says she's "thirsty as a mother****er". Says she wanted to take a person, "****ing mutilate them" and "smash their skull apart".

His lawyer probably told him to since he has to make up for all those ugly faces he was making earlier in the trial...JMO

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:51 AM
AveryFreeFMNews It's a "Jekyll and Hyde thing" with McClintic, Derstine says. She appears pleasant, but is completely different. #Rafferty....IMo what about Mr. rafferty and his deeds after the crime ...he certainly did NOT act like a remorseful man...IMO...I can not get out of my mind his visit to TLM in detention hall ....IMO if he was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO Innocent I would personally stay as far away as possible to someone who killed an 8 yearold....IF I HAD NOTHING to do with it...IMO another hmm moment ....robynhood

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:53 AM
His lawyer probably told him to since he has to make up for all those ugly faces he was making earlier in the trial...JMO

I doubt Derstine tells his clients how to use facial expressions to help him win his cases. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:53 AM
McClintic said she only once used the term "murderous *****es" on the stand. It was actually on many. Derstine says she knew it was a lie

RaffertyLFP: Derstine reads McClintic's statements about being "a fiend for blood" He says it was not just a fantasy

RaffertyLFP: Derstine said the McClintic would not own up to phrase "Murderous *****es

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic's claim to have changed is not believable

RaffertyLFP: Derstine continues more reading of McClintic's journal - a "thirst for blood" long description of killing a boy she hated

taagean
05-07-2012, 11:53 AM
The jury can disregard TLM's testimony that she killed Tori and if they do that who does it leave?

Exactly!

robynhood
05-07-2012, 11:54 AM
AveryFreeFMNews It's a "Jekyll and Hyde thing" with McClintic, Derstine says. She appears pleasant, but is completely different. #Rafferty

roseofsharon
05-07-2012, 11:54 AM
NOTHING proves who swung the hammer....... even the experts said so. Are you saying you know more than the experts ardy? Your opinion is based on a sexist ideaology. Women know how to swing hammers too.

Not to mention, IMO, the claw end of the hammer was used to inflict an even more devastating blow to TS's skull. That action sickens me to the core. RIP dear Tori! MOO

Kamille
05-07-2012, 11:54 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine reading a graphic section from McClintic's journals where she describes in graphic detail mutilating a complete stranger



Hold on to your hats folks, NECRO is coming up....I can feel it. Where are the drinks?

I'm way ahead of you. Cheers!!

TopTop
05-07-2012, 11:54 AM
So far all I get from the closing statement is the TLM is guilty...we know she is guilty she is in prison for the crime she committed.

He hasn't said a word of why his client is not guilty, how he was duped, what he thought he was doing.

I though he would at least focus of the babysitting.

Sailor Bug
05-07-2012, 11:54 AM
Derstine says the letters will be in the jury room.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic's claim to have changed is not believable

RaffertyLFP: Derstine says McClintic came out of custody posting fotos of herself on Facebook as a gang member

McClintic told the court she changed, was no longer violent in 2008. Derstine notes she took pictures dressed in gang colours/clothing in 09

captaincanada
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
TLM listed her past employment at the employment center. She didn't list any past construction experience or training.

MR owned several hammers himself. He had been employed in construction and maintenance jobs.

I think it is circumstantial evidence that TLM swung the hammer.

If anyone can post a single reference that shows the proper way to use a hammer is by using the claw end to strike something.............I would be happy to retract my statement.

JMO...........

There is no proper way to hold a hammer when killing someone. In fact, the claw end would do the most damage and Mr. Construction man would know that, so it is likely that he used the claw side of the hammer knowing this.

Really though, he is guilty because he knew exactly where to bring Tori to kill her, he has the connection to Mount Forest. TLM had no clue where they were. He's going down.

Alison
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
ummm a toddler knows how to swing a hammer <modsnip>

Eureka! I am going to right a book called How to use a hammer. It will be about two sentances long.

BTW my resume says nothing about training with a hammer or working in construction, but I sure don't use the claw end to hang my pictures up... just saying.

KMouse
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
So he is guilty then because he gave her the MONEY to buy the MURDER TOOLS!!!! OMG

What other explanation can there be for the Home Depot stop?

TLM tells MR she needs some money for something from Home Depot. But it's all a secret. If we were to believe this we would have to picture quite an unreasonable conversation between TLM & MR.

TLM: Oh, there's a Home Depot. Can you stop at the ATM and loan me $40? I need to run in and pick something up.

Thinkzerz
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow
Michael #Rafferty is sitting straight up, his brow furrowed as his lawyer Dirk Derstine makes his arguments

Kamille
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
He never said that, the defence "suggested" a different theory, which is actually not fact. Right at the beginning of Derstine's closing he reminds the jury:

Derstine telegraphs that he may present alternative theories, but that he's not necessarily saying what happened #Rafferty

http://twitter.com/#!/AdrianMorrow

So then WTH DID HAPPEN? We got nothing. Sorry, all the jury has is TLM's explanation.

MOO

Shasta
05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
JMO, I think the whole "who swung the hammer" question is a red herring that takes us down a dead end street and away from the fact that these two acted together to abduct, torture and kill a helpless child.