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SoSueMe
04-21-2012, 06:06 AM
Trial Discussion Thread:

reposting a few of the warnings:

Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

Thank you,
Salem

---------------------------------


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Websleuths Co-Owner

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Salem
05-06-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm hoping things wrap up today and the jury will begin deliberations. Probably just wishful thinking on my part LOL

Salem

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 06:15 AM
Good Morning!

http://citytv.rdmmedia.topscms.com/images/3b/c8/cda14e5b484386539cf3ef69670a.jpeg



We're nearing the end of the trial, Victoria. Justice is coming. Sending our thoughts and prayers to your daddy and mommy and big brother. You will always be in our hearts. xoxo

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7900000/Candle-With-Butterfly-Animated-butterflies-7980125-250-236.gif

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 06:24 AM
Crown set to wrap up Rafferty trial arguments


Crown attorney Kevin Gowdey told the jury Tuesday that Rafferty used Terri-Lynne McClintic as a “violent pawn” to help him carry out his “evil intentions.”

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/217165/crown-set-to-wrap-up-rafferty-trial-arguments/

Crown to finish closing arguments in Rafferty trial


He attempted to throw police off his trail by repeating rumours about Tori's mother, though he could have just as easily said a "raging homicidal maniac" is responsible and pointed police to Tori's body, Gowdey said.

One of Rafferty's most telling actions after April 8 was buying hair dye for McClintic once surveillance video was released showing her leading Tori away from school, Gowdey said.

"Why would a horrified witness who was an innocent dupe of Ms. McClintic take the steps to make the real killer change her appearance?" he said.


http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120509/120509_stafford_trial/20120509/?hub=CP24Home

matou
05-09-2012, 07:28 AM
http://www.canada.com/6343177.bin

When I see pictures of Tori, I see my own daughter looking at me. Tori is one of us, one of OUR daughters who never deserved to have her life taken from her. Both must be punished for what they did to her. Our children are not the pawns of deviant members of society. It must stop. These are our kids. xoxoxoxo RIP Tori. Justice is coming. The sadness will always remain. :cry:

matou
05-09-2012, 08:26 AM
The Crown will complete its closing argument Wednesday at the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty, and barring any unexpected delays, it's likely the jury will begin its deliberations sometime Thursday afternoon.

Once they begin - a verdict could be reached at any time.
http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1700870

matou
05-09-2012, 08:27 AM
He attempted to throw police off his trail by repeating rumours about Tori's mother, though he could have just as easily said a ``raging homicidal maniac'' is responsible and pointed police to Tori's body, Gowdey said.
http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1700870

matou
05-09-2012, 08:34 AM
More closing arguments by the Crown are expected throughout day 37 of the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.

Kevin Gowdey says he will require the majority of Wednesday to finish his summary of the final 5 chapters with the jury.

Gowdey ended his first day of closing submissions on Tuesday by talking about the contents of Michael Rafferty’s Blue 2003 Honda Civic, Rafferty’s Gym bag that was found within the car containing evidence of tiny fragments of blood that were found on the bottom of the bag mixed with Rafferty’s DNA. Those findings were determined through a Forensic Pathologist in earlier testimony.

Gowdey also spoke about other blood samples in the car and other DNA that was found that could not be ruled out that it belonged to 8 year old Tori Stafford.

Gowdey also touched on the importance of Terri-Lynne McClintic’s testimony of how she described under oath how Michael Rafferty brutally and repeatedly raped Tori Stafford before he allegedly threw the girl to the ground and struck her 4 times in the head with both ends of a hammer while she was smothered with garbage bags.

Gowdey explained to the jury "McClintic’s testimony defies the idea that the sexual assault could not have happened”.

Closing arguments will resume this morning at 10:00AM.


http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 08:36 AM
How will we know when a verdict is reached? I guess continue to follow the tweets? Does anybody know which reporter will alert to a verdict? I'll sign up with them. Thanks.

matou
05-09-2012, 08:45 AM
n/t: I think London Free Press and AM980 will always be in court so I would go with them on getting the alerts.

Kittymama
05-09-2012, 08:49 AM
What time does court start? It's 6:48 a.m. here. Should I go back to bed for another hour? Do I remember someone saying that it starts at 10 Ontario time?

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 08:49 AM
n/t

RANDY RICHMOND, The London Free Press

he said so yesterday in one of his tweets

greenthumb
05-09-2012, 08:51 AM
What time does court start? It's 6:48 a.m. here. Should I go back to bed for another hour? Do I remember someone saying that it starts at 10 Ontario time?

Yes, 10 a.m. Ontario time... sleep well :)

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 08:53 AM
What time does court start? It's 6:48 a.m. here. Should I go back to bed for another hour? Do I remember someone saying that it starts at 10 Ontario time?

You should be able to get another hour sleep in. Should start in just over an hr.

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 08:55 AM
Good morning all. Hopefully if there is any doubt in any of the jurors minds it will be erased today.

snoofer
05-09-2012, 09:08 AM
http://www.vermilionstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3556281


In historical attire and with iconic canadian names; Gowdey, Crockett, Venne and Carnegie. This photo gives me chills. It represents JUSTICE on the march for Tori. Powerful.

MOO

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 09:12 AM
http://www.vermilionstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3556281


In historical attire and with iconic canadian names; Gowdey, Crockett, Venne and Carnegie. This photo gives me chills. It represents JUSTICE on the march for Tori. Powerful.

MOO

This is a group I would want on my side.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:18 AM
http://www.vermilionstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3556281


In historical attire and with iconic canadian names; Gowdey, Crockett, Venne and Carnegie. This photo gives me chills. It represents JUSTICE on the march for Tori. Powerful.

MOO

Team Victoria! :)


http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/national/2012/05/08/crown248.jpg

snoofer
05-09-2012, 09:18 AM
This is a group I would want on my side.

Yes. Indeed. These names have been peppered throughout Canadian history since confederation.

Yody04
05-09-2012, 09:22 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 09:24 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

Tell your husband he is wrong. ;)

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:27 AM
Mike Knoll: quick morning update from Randy Richmond:

The Crown in the first-degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty is expected to finish closing arguments Wednesday.

Rafferty has pleaded not guilty to the kidnapping, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford of Woodstock April 8, 2009.

The Crown's closing argument would be followed by the judge's charge to the jury.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/09/19735586.html

snoofer
05-09-2012, 09:28 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

This might be a good time to wager a bet with him for say that dress or purse you have been just drooling over...... ;) Better still...new patio furniture!

nobodyzgirl
05-09-2012, 09:33 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

I think reasonable doubt has been created, and I also think the Crown's case weighed too heavily on TLM's testimony, and the circumstantial evidence to help with TLM's credibility, the defence was able to poke holes at. JMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 09:35 AM
Good morning...Hi ya all.....rockin Robyn has tweeter on ....the are at court house early and I saw this tweet .....but I am sure they will not really know when the Judge will give the Jury instructions as the Crown has to finish....this was said tho on tweeter.....

AM980_Court Crown will finish closing arguments at the Tori Stafford trial today; jury expected to begin deliberations tomorrow http://t.co/ivbN27Y4

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Mike Knoll: @guest - yes. We will have a number of articles to publish once the jury is sequestered.

Comment From Guest
Once the Judge has charged the Jury will all items withheld be available. I know that there was many meetings without jury present and you were unable to report on. Will that now be made available?

Mike Knoll: @b - yes. we will report on it with a live feed like this one.

Comment From b
are you allowed to report the judge's charge to the jury?

Thinkzerz
05-09-2012, 09:40 AM
Can any juror talk about why they alone choose the verdict that they believed in after the trial is over. Not to talk about why the others decided to choose but what they as a single choose?

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:41 AM
Mike Knoll: @Guest - yes, it's true. Here's a link to a definition: Murder (Canadian law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Comment From Guest
Yesterday the crown said if a person is involved in a kidnapping or sexual assault that leads to death it's cosidered first degree murder...is that true? Do you have a link to a definition of First Degree Murder in Canada?

Yody04
05-09-2012, 09:50 AM
I think reasonable doubt has been created, and I also think the Crown's case weighed too heavily on TLM's testimony, and the circumstantial evidence to help with TLM's credibility, the defence was able to poke holes at. JMO

that is exactly what he said too. In his opinion TLM messed up everything by changing her testimony and saying that she did the killing. I hate to say it but I have the feeling that he is right. We all want to see this guy locked up for a long time (that's what our hearts want) because that's what we believe. But that's is not the way a Jury can make their verdict. They can only built on things they can proof.....

Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:52 AM
Can any juror talk about why they alone choose the verdict that they believed in after the trial is over. Not to talk about why the others decided to choose but what they as a single choose?

My understanding is it is illegal for the jurors to talk about anything to do with the trial after a verdict is reached.

matou
05-09-2012, 09:54 AM
The Chapters again:


the crown will present its case in chapters:

Chapter 1: The day of the kidnapping. The surveillance video showing Rafferty driving up the street outside Tori's school and McClintic walking Tori up the street. Witnesses from and around Oliver Stephens public school will talk about seeing Tori.
An identification officer will use photographs and maps to show the route from Woodstock to Guelph.
Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, will testify about the frantic hours the family spent looking for Tori.

Chapter 2: Terri-Lynne McClintic. "She was an essential part of all that happened," Gowdey said. "I expect her credibility will be a major issue in this case."

Chapter 3: Guelph -- video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene, which the jury will visit. "It will be difficult to go to the very place where this happened, I know that, but understanding the crime scene is crucial to understanding the crime," Gowdey said. Photographs, some of them graphic, will be used to explain "exactly how the killing happened."
"Unfortunately it is only through them that you can fully understand (the) evidence," Gowdey said.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

Chapter 12: A recap of the surveillance video.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19463111.html

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 09:54 AM
RaffertyLFP: Waiting for Rafferty trial to resume. Crown Attorney Kevin Gowdey expected to wrap his final arguments today

antiquegirl
05-09-2012, 09:54 AM
Good morning. Carried over from the previous thread re my question about the tiny blood stain on the car door moulding.


daisy.faithfull

If the blood got there when TLM killed Tori I would think there would be more splatter/cast off.


flipflop

If this blood on the door was from the murder, there would have been alot more.



James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7
Gowdey shows garbage bag that covered Tori's head. Numerous holes in the bag.


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Gowdey suggests that shampooing and cleaning removed most of the evidence from the car - one spot was cut out


James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7
A thorough washing can remove DNA evidence, Gowdey recalls expert testimony - #RAfferty allegedly shampooed car after murder

If I were on the jury (and I'm thankful that I'm not), I'd have "reasonable doubt" as to how and when that little bit of Tori's blood ended up and remained on the open side of the door. As others here have pointed out, it would be an easy spot to miss when the rest of the car was cleaned.


flipflop

They got rid of the clothing incase someone had spotted them that day wearing them.

I'm sorry, flip, but I don't understand the reasoning here. If there was no blood on the clothing, how would keeping them be incriminating? I can see why TLM would get rid of the white jacket (CASS video with Tori, although she wasn't aware of it yet), but why the rest of it? They were entitled to own and re-wear those clothes. Both eventually ended up on security videos wearing them (without Tori). I'd think that not having them would be more suspicious than having them (if they didn't contain DNA).

Along the same line of questions, why did MTR not dispose of the pea coat? TLM testified it covered Tori. It would have either remained in the back of the car or been re-donned by MTR during the alleged sexual assault. And yet, not a shred of DNA was found on it connecting it to Tori. No scientific expert testified that there were dry cleaning chemicals found on it, nor evidence that it had been washed (shrinkage, soap residue, etc.).


During his cross-examination Rafferty’s lawyer, Dirk Derstine, asked McLean whether she can put Rafferty and Tori in the car together at the same time. She replied that that is not something DNA evidence can do.
http://981freefm.ca/london-ontario-news/raffertys-car-under-the-microscope/

JMO

tmhco
05-09-2012, 09:55 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

Show him this statement. Says it all too me.

"Rafferty, 31, has pleaded not guilty and his lawyer, Dirk Derstine, spent the previous day casting McClintic, already serving a life sentence for the murder, as the lone homicidal “engine” behind Tori’s slaying. He refloated his vague theory she snatched the little girl to exact a ransom for a drug debt and Rafferty had no idea what was going on when his former girlfriend asked him to wait in the car while she picked Tori up from Oliver Stephens Public School.

But rather than standing by in horror later as McClintic struck the child repeatedly with a hammer, motivated only by her own demons, Gowdey told jurors Rafferty was actually the mastermind behind the ugly tableau. That this was never about an unsubstantiated drug debt, this was about a man who wanted to rape a child.

It's the only motive that makes one lick of sense.
JMO

Tahorn
05-09-2012, 09:56 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

I feel the same way your husband feels. However since I was not present in the court room to see the body language of the witnesses, nor to see the autopsy photos, (they must have an impact emotionally) ... I am not sure which way they vote.

nobodyzgirl
05-09-2012, 09:56 AM
Can any juror talk about why they alone choose the verdict that they believed in after the trial is over. Not to talk about why the others decided to choose but what they as a single choose?

They are not allowed to say anything that happened while deliberating, if they do, they could find themselves in court with their very own charges to defend.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 09:59 AM
Mike Knoll: - archived feeds here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19539806.html


Good Morning, Do you have the link to Rafferty's interview that was played yesterday afternoon for the jury?

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19542366.html


Crown will finish closing arguments at the Tori Stafford trial today; jury expected to begin deliberations tomorrow http://bit.ly/KQa8Am

Confusedashell
05-09-2012, 10:00 AM
that is exactly what he said too. In his opinion TLM messed up everything by changing her testimony and saying that she did the killing. I hate to say it but I have the feeling that he is right. We all want to see this guy locked up for a long time (that's what our hearts want) because that's what we believe. But that's is not the way a Jury can make their verdict. They can only built on things they can proof.....

Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?
I have to agree 100% with both of you guy. As much as I want him locked up and to throw away the key I am afraid he is going to walk after 10 years and that is still young enough to continue on his savage if he pleases. JMO

matou
05-09-2012, 10:00 AM
I would think that carrying Tori's dead body would have caused some leaking of blood on to TLM's and MR's clothing, regardless of the garbage bags. JMO

gbay
05-09-2012, 10:00 AM
that is exactly what he said too. In his opinion TLM messed up everything by changing her testimony and saying that she did the killing. I hate to say it but I have the feeling that he is right. We all want to see this guy locked up for a long time (that's what our hearts want) because that's what we believe. But that's is not the way a Jury can make their verdict. They can only built on things they can proof.....

Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?

It is my understanding that if they find him guilty of kidnapping and/or sexual assault and either or both lead to her death than he is also guilty of first degree murder.

If we look at TLM, when she was charged she said MTR wielded the hammer but she was still charged with first degree murder!!

matou
05-09-2012, 10:01 AM
Mike Knoll: - archived feeds here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19539806.html


Good Morning, Do you have the link to Rafferty's interview that was played yesterday afternoon for the jury?

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19542366.html


Crown will finish closing arguments at the Tori Stafford trial today; jury expected to begin deliberations tomorrow http://bit.ly/KQa8Am

Here is the transcript to the interview.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86510694/TRANSCRIPT-Michael-Rafferty-interview-with-OPP-2009-05-15

jenniferleia
05-09-2012, 10:01 AM
that is exactly what he said too. In his opinion TLM messed up everything by changing her testimony and saying that she did the killing. I hate to say it but I have the feeling that he is right. We all want to see this guy locked up for a long time (that's what our hearts want) because that's what we believe. But that's is not the way a Jury can make their verdict. They can only built on things they can proof.....

Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?

Go back a few posts to the definition of first degree murder....."if you are involved with a kidnapping" and it leads to death then it is still considered first degree murder. Correct me if I am wrong in that statement?? I think he was 100% involved with a kidnapping (no matter what the reason), therefore guilty. Plain and simple.

Yody04
05-09-2012, 10:03 AM
I feel the same way your husband feels. However since I was not present in the court room to see the body language of the witnesses, nor to see the autopsy photos, (they must have an impact emotionally) ... I am not sure which way they vote.

that was my question too: how can you cut out your emotions and just go after evidence? I don't know.
My husband doesn't know all the little details we do because he can't handle it. Reading about it makes him sick and I can give him always just little portions.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:04 AM
RaffertyLFP: Court resuming jury not in yet

Yody04
05-09-2012, 10:04 AM
Go back a few posts to the definition of murder....."if you are involved with a kidnapping" and it leads to death then it is still considered first degree murder. Correct me if I am wrong in that statement?? I think he was 100% involved with a kidnapping (no matter what the reason), therefore guilty. Plain and simple.

I know all that but he also has his doubts about the kidnapping. :-(

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:05 AM
RaffertyLFP: Court resuming jury not in yet [via Twitter]

Wondergirl
05-09-2012, 10:05 AM
Good-morning.

Thinking of poor Rodney and the family today.

Rest in Peace, sweet child. :(



http://metronewsca.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/djc104024755_high1.jpg?w=618&h=408&crop=1

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:07 AM
Court in session

Jurors in the courtroom.

RaffertyLFP: Crown Attorney Kevin Gowdey tells jury he will take most of day to finish final argument

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey says he will finish evidence "chapters" and the deal more specifically with McClintic testimony

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:08 AM
,,,I know that TLM testimony is questionable but she did claim that the supposive rape occurred in tha back seat of the car ....blood could have ( i would underline that but in a hurry to get twitter) occurred when the rape occured as some where on here it stated that M.R pushed Tori out the door after....( now this is highly questionable ) coming I think form TLM ....but when the fornsiac was done....i think it supprted that theory ...the blood was found on the back seat rear car moulding ....some asked yesterday where exactly that blood was found ....and if my memory was correct....was not M.R's sperm not mixed with Tori's blood????....the spot on his gym bad was explained as blood that did splatter from murder ....not sure on details ...and tweeter is starting.....bye must catch them for you all ...robynhood....This post is IMO and from what I think I read ....so much info ...tweeter and artcles published on this bloos samples ..gotta run missing stuff!

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey resumes - talking about Rafferty's connections to Wellington County

Gowdey tells the jury he'll take up "much" of today with the rest of his closing,

Rodney Stafford's family tells media that Tori's dad won't be coming to court today. Family says he's completely "saturated."

Now going over Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown Closing Arguments resume with Kevin Gowdey talking about #Rafferty's connection to Mt. Forest area (where Tori was found) #sl


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Tori Stafford's grandmother says Rodney Stafford won't be coming to court today. He left midday yesterday

:(

crystalsleuth
05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?

It is my understanding that the Judge will let the jury know what options they have when he addresses them after the Crown is finished their closing arguments. It is possible that he will tell them what to do in a situation like you have noted above.

If it takes 2 days to address them, they will have quite a list of things to consider, IMO.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
AM980_Court Rodney Stafford's family tells media that Tori's dad won't be coming to court today. Family says he's completely "saturated."

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:10 AM
M980_Court Now going over Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:11 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey resumes - talking about Rafferty's connections to Wellington County

Reminding the jury of a woman who dated Rafferty, said they'd drive around north of Guelph and have sex.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey recounts testimony from girlfriends about his wandering around backroads and his former employer at landscaping job

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:11 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey says Rafferty lived and worked Wellington County McClintic did not - would have known area of crime scene

McClintic, meantime, had no connection.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey continues with Rafferty's post-crime behaviour including visits to Genest

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:12 AM
AM980_Court Gowdey satsuma that shows he knows the area, would be able to find a secluded spot.

tweet before mentioned how his past Gf gave evidence that M.R knew the area and former employer

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:12 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey says Rafferty lived and worked Wellington County McClintic did not - would have known area of crime scene

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:13 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Crown continues closing arguments with #Rafferty's familiarity with the Mount Forest area, where #ToriStafford was eventually found

Allanae
05-09-2012, 10:13 AM
It is my understanding that if they find him guilty of kidnapping and/or sexual assault and either or both lead to her death than he is also guilty of first degree murder.

If we look at TLM, when she was charged she said MTR wielded the hammer but she was still charged with first degree murder!!
Thanks for saying this. I don't understand why people are thinking he is going to be charged with a lesser crime than he is on trial for. He was a part of the abduction/kidnapping. She died during this time so IMO he is guilty of 1st. I have reasonable doubt about the sexual assault- I feel the crown can't prove it 100%, but they have been able to prove that he was part of the kidnapping. There is no way an 8 year old child would be driven 2 hours away and not protest. I have been around enough kids in my life to know this. Even if he didn't know about it at the beginning there had to be a time he knew about it during that 2 hours. She was also hidden in the car. There is no other explanation on why she would be hidden. There is no way a child would not say a word or put up a fight if they were abducted/kidnapped. Once he was aware of it he was a part of it IMO.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:13 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey continues with Rafferty's post-crime behaviour including visits to Genest

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:13 AM
So, it's clear Rafferty "drove Tori to her death". Not McClintic.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty kept up contact with McClintic when she was in Genest - he was registered as "boyfriend"

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:14 AM
AM980_Court So, it's clear Rafferty "drove Tori to her death". Not McClintic.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:14 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown: Rafferty knew Mt. Forest area: "It was he who drove her to her death, he drove her to the place of her death..


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
"It was he who drove her to her death, Victoria Stafford. He drove her to that place in Wellington County," said Crown Kevin Gowdey

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:15 AM
LindaNguyenPN "It was he who drove her to her death, Victoria Stafford. He drove her to that place in Wellington County," said Crown Kevin Gowdey

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:15 AM
Rafferty wanted McClintic to believe "she was the one" after the offense

McClintic initiated the contact from Genest. Gowdey again suggests they were in it together.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic registered Rafferty as her boyfriend because she was "in on it" and also wanted to mantain contact

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:16 AM
AveryFreeFMNews Jury back. Crown Attorney Gowdey tells jurors he will take most of the day ending his closing remarks. #Rafferty

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 10:16 AM
After discussing yesterday with my husband the outcome of the closing arguments he said that there is in his opinion not enough evidence to find him guilty in all three points without a doubt. He really believes too that MTR is guilty in everything but worries that the jury can built a verdict on what they have. Is anybody thinking the same?

If he feels he's guilty there is a reason why, he needs to examine why he feels this way--of course, it is more important for the jury to do this than your husband. lol. MOO!

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:16 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown talking about #Rafferty's visits to McClintic at Detention centre after murder. Says visits were b/c they were in it together


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Jury back. Crown Attorney Gowdey tells jurors he will take most of the day ending his closing remarks.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:17 AM
Rafferty asked if McClintic wanted anything in Genest, offered to bring her roses. Gowdey says this was all a lie so she wouldn't turn.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic registered Rafferty as her boyfriend because she was "in on it" and also wanted to mantain contact

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty made promises to McClintic "to string her along" after the crime

Tahorn
05-09-2012, 10:17 AM
Thanks for saying this. I don't understand why people are thinking he is going to be charged with a lesser crime than he is on trial for. He was a part of the abduction/kidnapping. She died during this time so IMO he is guilty of 1st. I have reasonable doubt about the sexual assault- I feel the crown can't prove it 100%, but they have been able to prove that he was part of the kidnapping. There is no way an 8 year old child would be driven 2 hours away and not protest. I have been around enough kids in my life to know this. Even if he didn't know about it at the beginning there had to be a time he knew about it during that 2 hours. She was also hidden in the car. There is no other explanation on why she would be hidden. There is no way a child would not say a word or put up a fight if they were abducted/kidnapped. Once he was aware of it he was a part of it IMO.

Here lies the problem, premeditated would be first degree, after the fact I am not so sure.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:17 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty asked if McClintic wanted anything in Genest, offered to bring her roses. Gowdey says this was all a lie so she wouldn't turn.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty rolls his eyes and mutters to himself when Gowdey mentions Rafferty allegedly telling McClintic they could be "Bonnie and Clyde"...

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
RaffertyLFP: Court is seeing the the Genest video again Rafferty and McClinitic are hugging, laughing

Rafferty rolls his eyes and mutters to himself when Gowdey mentions Rafferty allegedly telling McClintic they could be "Bonnie and Clyde"...

...if they just took off from Genest together.

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
AM980_Court Rodney Stafford's family tells media that Tori's dad won't be coming to court today. Family says he's completely "saturated."

Group hug for Rodney and family!

Wondergirl
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
I heard an interview this morning of Rodney speaking yesterday, after he left the courthouse.

His voice was filled with anxiety, IMO, and he said he couldn't take it anymore, that he felt like he was going to burst, that he needed to say something (but couldn't).

Poor guy. My heart just breaks for him and his pain. :(

I will be thankful and waiting patiently, and with a heavy heart, for Rodney to say what he wants to say when the Jury goes out, or whenever he is ready.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:19 AM
AM980_Court Showing the Genest video. Rafferty and McClintic "had not a care in the world" Gowdey says. Showing the second visit.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:19 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown says Rafferty lied to McClintic who was in detention after murder to string her along to make sure she didn't turn on him


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Crown now replaying jail house videos where #Rafferty went to visit TLM on May, 8 and May 12, 2009


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown now showing video highlights of #Rafferty visiting McClintic at Genest Detention Centre “Kids with not a care in the world”

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:19 AM
Showing the Genest video. Rafferty and McClintic "had not a care in the world" Gowdey says. Showing the second visit.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty had McClintic "right where he wanted her in the palm of his hand" ensuring she would not tell police what she knew

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty needed to keep McClintic onside and find out what she knew

Rafferty had McClintic "right where he wanted her, in the palm of his hand" Gowdey says.

Rafferty, not coincidentally Gowdey says, visited a second time just after McClintic was interrogated by police.

matou
05-09-2012, 10:20 AM
Hmmmm MR rolled his eyes at the mention of Bonnie and Clyde just like he did the first time. At least he's consistent. JMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:20 AM
RaffertyLFP Court is seeing the the Genest video again Rafferty and McClinitic are hugging, laughing

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:21 AM
AveryFreeFMNews Gowdey says #Rafferty did what he needed to do to string McClintic along after #ToriStafford's death. Visits to detention centre, gifts.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:21 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey says #Rafferty did what he needed to do to string McClintic along after #ToriStafford's death. Visits to detention centre, gifts.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:21 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey said Rafferty needed to keep McClintic onside and find out what she knew

matou
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) Rafferty, not coincidentally Gowdey says, visited a second time just after McClintic was interrogated by police.


That's a biggie right there. JMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty, not coincidentally Gowdey says, visited a second time just after McClintic was interrogated by police.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
Rafferty needed McClintic, Gowdey says. He kept in close communication

Gowdey now focusing on the May 15th weekend. He was interviewed by police on the 15th. Then started covering his tracks.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey advances to day that Rafferty was interviewed by police and then called McClintic to lay low "knew the net was closing in on him"

otto
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
I think that MR defence would have had a better chance if they'd skipped the one witness and opted for presenting last.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:23 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty needed McClintic, Gowdey says. He kept in close communication.

matou
05-09-2012, 10:23 AM
MR had TLM in a cage with her being in Genest. He knew where she was at all times. He was in control. JMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:24 AM
veryFreeFMNews Gowdey says #Rafferty wanted to be sure he maintained control over McClintic. To gather any info from her in case the police turned to him

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey reads a part of McClintic's testimony saying #Rafferty said they could be the next Bonnie and Clyde. #Rafferty shakes head rolls eyes

Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey expects to take much of the day as he concludes his closing arguments.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown on video: "“This is a man at the top of his game making sure his plan to cover their tracks is still succeeding”

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey says #Rafferty wanted to be sure he maintained control over McClintic. To gather any info from her in case the police turned to him


Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey suggests #Rafferty visited McClintic at Genest to maintain control over her.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty was intent on getting certain kind of Puma shoes to replace the ones that showed up in the video from April 8

He went to an auto wreckers yard, exchanged his blackberry.

nursebeeme
05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
Here lies the problem, premeditated would be first degree, after the fact I am not so sure.


First-degree murder is when the killing is "planned and deliberate." In other words, where the murder was premeditated. However, some killings that aren't premeditated are still automatically first-degree, such as the killing of a police officer or when the killing takes place during the commission of a hijacking, kidnapping or sexual assault.http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/features/pickton/story.html?id=ffa77705-640d-4d47-9cad-729b648abbe5

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:26 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey advances to day that Rafferty was interviewed by police and then called McClintic to lay low "knew the net was closing in on him"

nobodyzgirl
05-09-2012, 10:26 AM
that is exactly what he said too. In his opinion TLM messed up everything by changing her testimony and saying that she did the killing. I hate to say it but I have the feeling that he is right. We all want to see this guy locked up for a long time (that's what our hearts want) because that's what we believe. But that's is not the way a Jury can make their verdict. They can only built on things they can proof.....

Another question that came up in this discussion was: what if the jury would say: we can't agree with 1st degree murder but find him guilty of accessory murder? Is that even possible because that's not what he is charged with?

If the judge doesn't instruct on any lesser charges (i.e., accessory) and the jury can't agree on 1st degree, then it comes back as a hung jury. They can only convict on lesser charges if the judge instructs that way. HTH

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey said Rafferty was intent on getting certain kind of Puma shoes to replace the ones that showed up in the video from April 8

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
After police intvued #Rafferty on May 15, he called TLM at Genest Detention Centre. She says that's when he told her they had to lay low

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
Rafferty was looking for a specific style of Puma shoes, so he could show them to police if they asked about them. He gave his to McClintic.

Getting a new blackberry also got rid of evidence, Gowdey says.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty went to London to get rid of his old Blackberry and went to Corey auto wreckers, looking for replacement car seat

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
LindaNguyenPN After police intvued #Rafferty on May 15, he called TLM at Genest Detention Centre. She says that's when he told her they had to lay low

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
As Crown talks about Rafferty buying shoes after Tori's murder, he mouths some words in disagreement. Wish I could read lips

jenniferleia
05-09-2012, 10:28 AM
I think that MR defence would have had a better chance if they'd skipped the one witness and opted for presenting last.

I dunno......still would have had NOTHING of any use.....JMO

matou
05-09-2012, 10:28 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) Rafferty was looking for a specific style of Puma shoes, so he could show them to police if they asked about them. He gave his to McClintic.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:28 AM
The crown notes Rafferty went to an auto wreckers. They say he wanted a new backseat for his Honda Civic,

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty was panicking after police visit wanted to switch Blackberry, shoes, replacement back seat and looked for rental car

He suggested there were a lot of police out on the lint weekend to a girlfriend. Wanted to rent a car so he wouldn't get pulled over.

Gowdey says he was worried about police seeing the car Tori Stafford was sexually assaulted in.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey moves to Rafferty's Blackberry records - was incessantly calling, texting messaging 142 times a day on average

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:28 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty was looking for a specific style of Puma shoes, so he could show them to police if they asked about them. He gave his to McClintic.

..finding the same puma shoes was important ...see above tweet to explain why...IMO

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
AshtonPatis ‏ @AshtonPatis
#Rafferty is seemingly angry today. Mouths a lot of words in disagreement to the Crown's final arguments and shakes his head.

Allanae
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Here lies the problem, premeditated would be first degree, after the fact I am not so sure.
Our law states "while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement". So I don't see how it needs to be pre-meditated. IMO. Once he was aware he was in on this kidnapping-and he had to have at one point- he was helping to commit it. Any innocent dupe would have picked up their Blackberry (we know he knew how to do this) and called the police, or driven the child to a police station or safe spot. When he made the decision not to do this he was helping with the kidnapping. Driving Down a deserted lane-way is not a safe spot. His actions caused this childs death. Maybe not directly but he was in on it. Who knows when he was in on it but he was at one point....

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
AM980_Court Rafferty was looking for a specific style of Puma shoes, so he could show them to police if they asked about them. He gave his to McClintic.


...tweet befor also mentoned M.R getting a new blackberry phone...!

Confusedashell
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
I heard an interview this morning of Rodney speaking yesterday, after he left the courthouse.

His voice was filled with anxiety, IMO, and he said he couldn't take it anymore, that he felt like he was going to burst, that he needed to say something (but couldn't).

Poor guy. My heart just breaks for him and his pain. :(

I will be thankful and waiting patiently, and with a heavy heart, for Rodney to say what he wants to say when the Jury goes out, or whenever he is ready.
do you have that link

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey discusses #Rafferty's search for new Puma shoes, new blackberry and contacting auto wreckers.


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
#Rafferty replaced his BlackBerry, wiped it, tried to rent a car and visited auto wreckers when he thought police were closing in on him

matou
05-09-2012, 10:30 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) He suggested there were a lot of police out on the lint weekend to a girlfriend. Wanted to rent a car so he wouldn't get pulled over.

Pulled over for what???? JMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
AM980_Court Gowdey says he was worried about police seeing the car Tori Stafford was sexually assaulted in.

...they also mentioned auto wreckers visit...many tweets coming in at same time...sorry

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey says even though police were polite and cordial in the May 15 interview #Rafferty decided they were hot on his trail. Covered tracks.

matou
05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) Gowdey says he was worried about police seeing the car Tori Stafford was sexually assaulted in.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
Girlfriends say his constant use of his blackberry was annoying, frequently.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey moves to Rafferty's Blackberry records - was incessantly calling, texting messaging 142 times a day on average

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said minutes after 9:04 am drive by Apr 8 he contacted Armstrong, and asked Spitzig for money Posted "Everything Good coming my way"

otto
05-09-2012, 10:32 AM
I hope MR continues to act out in the prisoners box ... the jury will view him as immature and as wanting to jump out of the box and tell it like it is (control) - according to MR.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:32 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey moves to Rafferty's Blackberry records - was incessantly calling, texting messaging 142 times a day on average

....tweet also said Gf finding M.R use of blackberry was annoying!

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey said minutes after 9:04 am drive by Apr 8 he contacted Armstrong, and asked Spitzig for money Posted "Everything Good coming my way"

Jezbel
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
I heard an interview this morning of Rodney speaking yesterday, after he left the courthouse.

His voice was filled with anxiety, IMO, and he said he couldn't take it anymore, that he felt like he was going to burst, that he needed to say something (but couldn't).

Poor guy. My heart just breaks for him and his pain. :(

I will be thankful and waiting patiently, and with a heavy heart, for Rodney to say what he wants to say when the Jury goes out, or whenever he is ready.

That is so sad, I too hope he gets his say when he is ready.

Do you have the link for that by any chance?

TIA

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown now on #Rafferty's blackberry use and what it shows about his movements/actions the day Tori was taken

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
After driving by Oliver Stephens, he texted Barbara Armstrong about buying percocets. He then BBM'd Charity Spitzig for cash....

...and updated his Facebook status with "everything good is coming my way" soon after.

matou
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) After driving by Oliver Stephens, he texted Barbara Armstrong about buying percocets. He then BBM'd Charity Spitzig for cash....

matou
05-09-2012, 10:34 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) ..,and updated his Facebook status with "everything good is coming my way" soon after.

Was that post done by phone BTW?

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:35 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdeys says the battery of the Blackberry was out for a while around 3:30 pmuntil 4:19 - he missed a call

Going over blackberry use on April 8th. Activity stopped from 3:45 until 4:18. Then he checked his messages. He had missed a call.

Gowdey says that shows McClintic's evidence was accurate.

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Here lies the problem, premeditated would be first degree, after the fact I am not so sure.

Falling behind here, so it's probably been mentioned.

Premeditation could happen in a matter of a minute.

I believe this was well planned out by MR anyway.

Tahorn
05-09-2012, 10:36 AM
Our law states "while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement". So I don't see how it needs to be pre-meditated. IMO. Once he was aware he was in on this kidnapping-and he had to have at one point- he was helping to commit it. Any innocent dupe would have picked up their Blackberry (we know he knew how to do this) and called the police, or driven the child to a police station or safe spot. When he made the decision not to do this he was helping with the kidnapping. Driving Down a deserted lane-way is not a safe spot. His actions caused this childs death. Maybe not directly but he was in on it. Who knows when he was in on it but he was at one point....

Morally yes ... Legally I am not sure it is considered 1st degree.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:37 AM
ni matou ...I think that post was on his computer before he left to do abuction....you can check that for sure on evidence from crown tho...I am sure on home computer a fb post!

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:37 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said no activity from Blackberry around 7 p.m. Rafferty was "committing the sexual assault and murder of Tori Stafford at that time

From 7:03 to 7:46, no outgoing calls. Gowdey suggests he was "otherwise occupied" in Mount Forest.

Gowdey gets more specific. "He, at that point, was committing the sexual assault of Tori Stafford"

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:37 AM
AM980_Court From 7:03 to 7:46, no outgoing calls. Gowdey suggests he was "otherwise occupied" in Mount Forest.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:38 AM
AM980_Court As soon as the assault and murder was over, he began messaging other girlfriends.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:38 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said after 8 pm Rafferty was back to Blackberry chatting with girlfriends "he never skipped a beat"

As soon as the assault and murder was over, he began messaging other girlfriends.

OhSoCurious
05-09-2012, 10:38 AM
I hope MR continues to act out in the prisoners box ... the jury will view him as immature and as wanting to jump out of the box and tell it like it is (control) - according to MR.

The jury could also view it in the exact opposite manner. He has completely had it with being accused of acts he did not do. There could be one of these thinkers in the 12. JMO MOO IMO

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:39 AM
AM980_Court Gowdey gets more specific. "He, at that point, was committing the sexual assault of Tori Stafford"....this tweeter is in reference to cell phone off !

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey said after 8 pm Rafferty was back to Blackberry chatting with girlfriends "he never skipped a beat"

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown recapping the activity on #Rafferty's BB that shows the path he took from Woodstock to Mt. Forest


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
on lack of activity on #Rafferty's BB around 7 pm Crown:"He at that point was committing the sexual assault and murder of Tori Stafford"

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey talks about Rafferty buying hair dye on April 11 (receipt shown) followed immediately by call to McClintic

Showing the boxes of hair dye Rafferty bought at Wal-Mart. Purchased at 7:23, he calls and texts her at 7:29.

nursebeeme
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
Morally yes ... Legally I am not sure it is considered 1st degree.

she was killed during a kidnapping. That is considered first degree automatically (I linked to the legal definition on the last page)

matou
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) Showing the boxes of hair dye Rafferty bought at Wal-Mart. Purchased at 7:23, he calls and texts her at 7:29.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:40 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Gowdey now taking jury thru #Rafferty's Blackberry use on Apr8,2009 on day #ToriStafford was kidnapped


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
The Crown is once again going over the evidence from #Rafferty's Blackberry records. Saying McClintic's version matches records.

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 10:41 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Rafferty was intent on getting certain kind of Puma shoes to replace the ones that showed up in the video from April 8

He went to an auto wreckers yard, exchanged his blackberry.

I never made the connection before--He wanted the same shoes, not so much because they were his favourite pair, but that they were seen on him in a video. It wouldn't look good, would it if he got rid of his shoes and his car seat......MOO!

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
#Rafferty shaking head, muttering in disagreement as Gowdey suggests records show his cell was off during alleged rape and murder on Apr8

matou
05-09-2012, 10:42 AM
‏ @LindaNguyenPN (https://twitter.com/#%21/LindaNguyenPN) #Rafferty (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23Rafferty) shaking head, muttering in disagreement as Gowdey suggests records show his cell was off during alleged rape and murder on Apr8

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:42 AM
LindaNguyenPN #Rafferty shaking head, muttering in disagreement as Gowdey suggests records show his cell was off during alleged rape and murder on Apr8

Allanae
05-09-2012, 10:43 AM
Morally yes ... Legally I am not sure it is considered 1st degree.

As the lawyer said today, he drove her to her death. 1st degree in my mind since she was a kidnap victim. Even if they were in a car accident and Victoria died that way I would consider it 1st degree as it would have still been during a kidnapping....Or choked on a tim bit or got bit by a poisonous snake....

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:43 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said surveillance videos were "silent witness" show that Rafferty and McClintic were working together and confirm her testimony

Showing shots from the video presentation.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:43 AM
LindaNguyenPN The phone records show #Rafferty drove out of Woodstock, to Guelph and Mt Forest on Apr8- just like TLM says they did #toristafford

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:43 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
on #Rafferty messaging girlfriends after 8 p.m. Crown: “He never skipped a beat”


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The phone records show #Rafferty drove out of Woodstock, to Guelph and Mt Forest on Apr8- just like TLM says they did


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
The Crown is also taking the jury through a review of the video surveillance tapes analyzed by Special Const. Gerry Lana

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Going over what Gerald Lanna, the video expert, told the jury.

Gowdey notes it was 8 minutes and 30 seconds of time with McClintic in the Home Depot. Reminds the jury Tori had to wait all that time...

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey talks about watching 8 minute Home Depot parking lot video "Just think of what Tori had to endure that 8 and a half minutes"

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 10:45 AM
I think that MR defence would have had a better chance if they'd skipped the one witness and opted for presenting last.

I don't think they would have had anything to add to their closing argument and Derstine knew it as someone here mentioned before. MOO.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown says phone records "really unquestionable evidence" about Rafferty's movements on Apr. 8/09. Backs up McClintic's testimony

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:46 AM
LindaNguyenPN The phone records show #Rafferty drove out of Woodstock, to Guelph and Mt Forest on Apr8- just like TLM says they did #toristafford

tweeter said these viedo are being shown to make it clear to jury thru videos that TLM & M.R. were working as a team....I thik N/t caught that tweeter ty ...N/T...msy coming in once....

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:47 AM
AM980_Court Gowdey notes it was 8 minutes and 30 seconds of time with McClintic in the Home Depot. Reminds the jury Tori had to wait all that time..

Yody04
05-09-2012, 10:47 AM
AshtonPatis ‏ @AshtonPatis
#Rafferty is seemingly angry today. Mouths a lot of words in disagreement to the Crown's final arguments and shakes his head.

He knows what's coming.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 10:47 AM
Gowdey notes it was 8 minutes and 30 seconds of time with McClintic in the Home Depot. Reminds the jury Tori had to wait all that time...

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Tori was probably hungry and terrified when she siting in that parking lot

...wondering what would happen to her. Having to watch that video in silence was the "least we can do for Victoria" Gowdey says.

Going on break for 20 minutes.

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:48 AM
RaffertyLFP Gowdey said surveillance videos were "silent witness" show that Rafferty and McClintic were working together and confirm her testimony...

that is the tweet I was looking for ...

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:48 AM
AveryFreeFMNews The Crown is also taking the jury through a review of the video surveillance tapes analyzed by Special Const. Gerry Lana. #Rafferty

...that is what the jury is doing now...by the way !

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:49 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown compares 8.5 mins of silence that jury watched a video recap earlier in trial to time Tori spent sitting in car terrified



:(

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:50 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
20 minute morning break called.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey asks the jury to think about how Tori feels in Guelph. She is supposed to be with her friends watching a movie, must be hungry.



Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
8.5 min Home Depot surveillance video. Gowdey says watching that is nothing compared to Tori having to sit in the car with

:(

robynhood
05-09-2012, 10:51 AM
AveryFreeFMNews 20 minute morning break called. #Rafferty

...be back soon as My son says I better remember HIM...LMAO...and forget about tweeting so much see ya soon....bye!...I see many tweeting today also ..thanks N/T, matou and sailor!

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 10:56 AM
As the lawyer said today, he drove her to her death. 1st degree in my mind since she was a kidnap victim. Even if they were in a car accident and Victoria died that way I would consider it 1st degree as it would have still been during a kidnapping....Or choked on a tim bit or got bit by a poisonous snake....

First degree murder is a classification of homicide. A car accident or a choking incident while in someone else's care and control would not constitute a homicide.

nursebeeme
05-09-2012, 10:56 AM
thank you robynhood! (and everyone else posting the tweets)

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 10:58 AM
The jury could also view it in the exact opposite manner. He has completely had it with being accused of acts he did not do. There could be one of these thinkers in the 12. JMO MOO IMO

He had his chance to tell his side if he's innocent. Too late. He has to deal with it!! His theatrics won't help his case, IMO JMO MOO

taagean
05-09-2012, 10:59 AM
I think that MR defence would have had a better chance if they'd skipped the one witness and opted for presenting last.

I fully agree. Even if they had a poor closing, the defense would be the last thing the jury hears and also, the defense could change a few things from listening to the prosecution's closing statement (if that is allowed - don't know if closing statements are heard by the opposition and/or judge before they are presented)

ETA: I''m glad the prosecution went last.

captaincanada
05-09-2012, 10:59 AM
For those who are wrestling with the minute details of who could have/would have done what on April 8th, 2009. For those worrying about who might have been the driving force, who planned the abduction, whether or not Tori was targeted, what happened to the back seat, who went in to Home Depot etc. It's easy to get caught up in the technical details to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" MR's guilt.....But, don't lose sight of one main thing: A little girl was kidnapped and disappeared that day, only to be found under a pile of rocks. There is no "doubt" about Tori being in MR's car, no "doubt" about TLM bringing her to his car, no "doubt" about MR driving little Tori to her death. Both McClintic and Rafferty were in this TOGETHER, there is no way around this. There is no excuse to thinking he was "duped". There is no doubt he knew where he was going and what he was doing when he drove down a dead end path in rural Mount Forest (his own stomping grounds.)

Anyone who thinks MR was "duped" has lost all common sense, and I surely wouldn't want them to be a juror in any trial.

The writing is on the wall. The crown has done all they could.

This monster is going down, with hopefully the maximum punishment possible. He should never see the light of day again.

impatientredhead
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
First degree murder is a classification of homicide. A car accident or a choking incident while in someone else's care and control would not constitute a homicide.

If someone dies while you are in the commission of a felony, which kidnapping and rape both qualify, you can be charged with homicide regardless of the actual cause of death.

Oldsoul2
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
I heard an interview this morning of Rodney speaking yesterday, after he left the courthouse.

His voice was filled with anxiety, IMO, and he said he couldn't take it anymore, that he felt like he was going to burst, that he needed to say something (but couldn't).

Poor guy. My heart just breaks for him and his pain. :(

I will be thankful and waiting patiently, and with a heavy heart, for Rodney to say what he wants to say when the Jury goes out, or whenever he is ready.

He obviously knows something more about this motif than we do.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
They had nothing. IMO, it wouldn't have made a difference. Putting that poor lady on the stand would've been just as ineffective if Derstine went last.

taagean
05-09-2012, 11:03 AM
He had his chance to tell his side if he's innocent. Too late. He has to deal with it!! His theatrics won't help his case, IMO JMO MOO

I agree with you but I'm always nervous of there being one or two jurors who see things differently. Hopefully, if this happens, they will be able to be convinced.

brighidin
05-09-2012, 11:04 AM
The jury could also view it in the exact opposite manner. He has completely had it with being accused of acts he did not do. There could be one of these thinkers in the 12. JMO MOO IMO

And then they might think: why didn't he take the stand?

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:05 AM
what do they mean when they say his battery was out??????

Mike Knoll: @guest - the battery was physically removed from the bberry.


Mike Knoll: - Rodney Stafford's mother told our photographer that Rodney won't be attending today.


is there a link to the genest detetion centre video?

Mike Knoll: - there's two amongst this group (both called Rafferty visits McClintic): http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/19/19653076.html



what does charge to the jury mean?

11:05 Mike Knoll: - from the web:

The judge's instructions to the jury concerning the law that applies to the facts of the case on trial.

The opinion expressed by the court to the jury, on the law arising out of a case before them.

It should contain a clear and explicit exposition of the law, when the points of the law in dispute arise out of the facts proved on the trial of the cause but the court ought at no time to undertake to decide the facts, for these are to be decided by the jury.

source: http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c163.htm

myzzy
05-09-2012, 11:05 AM
Good morning everyone

Thank you for the tweets today :) You all are doing great.

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 11:05 AM
If someone dies while you are in the commission of a felony, which kidnapping and rape both qualify, you can be charged with homicide regardless of the actual cause of death.<bbm>

Yes to the bolded part, and I believe that is what i said ... but car accidents and choking incidents are not felonies.

brighidin
05-09-2012, 11:08 AM
First-degree murder is when the killing is "planned and deliberate." In other words, where the murder was premeditated. However, some killings that aren't premeditated are still automatically first-degree, such as the killing of a police officer or when the killing takes place during the commission of a hijacking, kidnapping or sexual assault.

http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/features/pickton/story.html?id=ffa77705-640d-4d47-9cad-729b648abbe5


Thanks for this. I think it bears repeating.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:09 AM
I agree with you but I'm always nervous of there being one or two jurors who see things differently. Hopefully, if this happens, they will be able to be convinced.

There's always that risk that one or 2 jurors may have some doubt even as I type this. However, I think when they deliberate and they can all discuss the case and whatever doubt they have will be clarified by another juror. I believe they will come to a unanimous decision and convict him.

I have faith. Victoria deserves justice.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:10 AM
RaffertyLFP: Jury is out while legal issues are being discussed

Jury not in the courtroom yet. Some legal discussions going on.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:12 AM
Jury returning now.

RaffertyLFP: Jury back Gowdey deals with Rafferty's Farcebook posting

Showing Rafferty's Facebook page.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:14 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey noted "Everything good coming my way" posting on April 8 Says he just found partner to kidnap girl was that the reason?

Noting the "everything good" comment. Gowdey says it wasn't due to Alexis Lane, as he had broken up with her a week earlier.

Gowdey says the post may have been due to knowing he and McClintic were going to kidnap a little girl, to fulfill his sexual desires

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:14 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Back from break, Crown says #Rafferty's Facebook status "Everything good is comming my way" is circumstantial evidence

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 11:15 AM
<bbm>

Yes to the bolded part, and I believe that is what i said ... but car accidents and choking incidents are not felonies.

I don't believe she's saying accidents and choking are felonies. What she is saying is:

If a person chokes and dies while being raped, it's first degree murder.

If a person dies in a car accident while they're being held against their will, it's first degree murder.

...because the death happened during the rape or kidnapping, which are both felonies.

Does that make sense? :o/

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:16 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey turns to credibility of McClintic's testimony - he says her testimony reinforces circumstantial evidence

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey admits there McClintic has two versions of events - one from earlier confession saying Rafferty killed Tori and later that she did it

Gowdey now going over more of McClintic's evidence. Assessing her credibility.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:17 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
But says if the jury accepts that #Rafferty planned the kidnapping that morning that the Facebook status could be connected.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey agreess with the defence that #Rafferty's Facebook status Apr. 8 "everything good is comming my way" is circumstantial evidence.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:18 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey says though McClintic changed her story, she said in both versions that she and #Rafferty were working together.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey is now speaking to the jury about how they can use McClintic's evidence in deliberations.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:19 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic was full partner in the crime but her credibility in not central to Crown's case

Gowdey says McClintic's comments to police, saying they may consider the scenario that Rafferty hit Tori with the hammer.

Gowdey reminds the jury that the crown considers Rafferty and McClintic equally guilty.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:20 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said Derstine not interested in McClintic's testimony - he instead focused on her character and past

Derstine didn't challenge McClintic on what happened April 8th. Just on her violent history and her taste in music.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:21 AM
Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey says only difference between her May 2009 police statement and her testimony here was who actually killed Tori.

Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey to now take jury through McClintic's evidence.


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey clarifies that McClintic is guilty of kindapping, sexual assault and murder because she was party to it, #Rafferty equally as guilty.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:22 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said trial is about Rafferty guilt not McClintic's character "I know you will not believe everything she says - we don't ask you to"

"There is no question that she was not being totally honest with you" Gowdey says of McClintic.

But, "do believe some things she says".

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:22 AM
Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey "don't think for a moment the crown is trying to say McClintic is not guilty. The crown says they're both equally guilty."

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 11:22 AM
I don't believe she's saying accidents and choking are felonies. What she is saying is:

If a person chokes and dies while being raped, it's first degree murder.

If a person dies in a car accident while they're being held against their will, it's first degree murder.

...because the death happened during the rape or kidnapping, which are both felonies.

Does that make sense? :o/

Yes absolutely if that is what Allanae meant. I just didn't interpret their post that way. I do understand the first degree charges, just thought Allanae didn't. HTH

Allanae
05-09-2012, 11:23 AM
<bbm>

Yes to the bolded part, and I believe that is what i said ... but car accidents and choking incidents are not felonies.
But if you are driving someone away while kidnapping them that is a felony. I said if these incidents happened while being kidnapped.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:23 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said once McClintic confessed she was quite co-operative with police

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClinitics "tragic life didn't make sense" "She didn't want to be here"

McClintic led a tragic life. Some witnesses were nervous, he says she was one of them.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:24 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic "not smart enough to make all this happen by herself" - nor Rafferty - they needed each other

She admitted she lied in January about some things, because she didn't want to testify.

McClintic did "try to justify what she did" Gowdey says. But, she lied to police at Rafferty's suggestion.

11:25 RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic did a poor job of explaining herself - she was evasive

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown focusing on McClintic:"Don’t believe everything she says but do believe some things she says. She’s not an innocent eyewitness"

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 11:26 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic was full partner in the crime but her credibility in not central to Crown's case

Gowdey says McClintic's comments to police, saying they may consider the scenario that Rafferty hit Tori with the hammer.

Gowdey reminds the jury that the crown considers Rafferty and McClintic equally guilty.

Excellent. The Jury needs to understand that the case wasn't built on her testimony alone and it wasn't built on circumstantial evidence alone. TLM may lie but there was so much circumstantial evidence to corroborate her testimony.

The main parts of her version have been corroborated and her testimony is direct evidence.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown: Finding her (McClintic) guilty of being a horrible and violent person help you in figuring out Rafferty’s role in all of this?


Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey says McClintic wasn't smart enough to make all this happen herself.


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Gowdey now talking about Terri-Lynne McClintic. She's not a credible witness who had no reason to lie

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:27 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic originally said it was her idea to buy the hammer later said it was Rafferty's idea - she did not want to testify

A lot of McClintic's story was driven by her lack of willingness to testify.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic understood "we can't just keep her and can't take her back" she knew what was going on but tried to evade reality

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 11:28 AM
I don't think they would have had anything to add to their closing argument and Derstine knew it as someone here mentioned before. MOO.

Quoting myself, laugh out loud,....They chose to have MTR do a silent movie theatrical show from the prisoners box instead. MOO!!

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 11:29 AM
But if you are driving someone away while kidnapping them that is a felony. I said if these incidents happened while being kidnapped.

Thanks Allanae ... and sorry, I am guilty of having mis-read your post. Will have more coffee and wake up before barging in ;)

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 11:30 AM
Yes absolutely if that is what Allanae meant. I just didn't interpret their post that way. I do understand the first degree charges, just thought Allanae didn't. HTH

I realise you understand. Was just trying to clear up some miscommunication.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:30 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic knew exactly why she was buying garbage bags and hammer but she tried to evade reality

On the 401, she said Rafferty said "you know I'm going to f*** her right?" Crown says McClintic knew what would happen, Tori would be killed

Gowdey showing the crown's belief that McClintic is equally guilty, but says the crime scene details are accurate.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:31 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown says McClintic changed her story in January about who murdered Tori to try and get out of testifying at #Rafferty trial

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:32 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic did not block the events from her memory She is now stepping up and saying "we did it"

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic testified that she is was taking full responsibility for her actions

McClintic has stepped up and "taken full responsibility". She says both she and Rafferty committed the crime.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:33 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic's testimony is helpful even if she changed her story. The details supported by other evidence

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said jury should be confident that McClinitic testimony details can be relied on

He again stresses, her evidence can be helpful in many respects. Going over independently confirmed pieces of her testimony.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:35 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey says her visit to grocery store and employment centre, visit to gas station, abduction all confirmed by videos - other evidence

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey says music they listened to on trip, drug- pickup at Armstrong, Home Depot trip. ATM visit all confirmed by video other evidence

Including her activities early April 8th, drive with Rafferty, the kidnapping, removal of the blackberry battery, MuchDance CD in the car

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown going through Apr. 8th and McClintic's account and listing things confirmed by evidence

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown: Jury should be comforted and confident that even though she’s a convicted murder and a liar, her evidence can be relied on.

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown: “She may have changed her story about who killed Tori… but much of the detail she gave is supported by independent evidence” #sl

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:37 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey is going through the part of McClintic's evidence that has been confirmed to restore the jury's faith in parts of her story


Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Gowdey taking jury through McClintic's evidence on April 8/09, that is independently confirmed by video surveillance, ect.


Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Crown going thru evidence from McClintic that was confirmed by independent evidence during trial

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:38 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said DNA evidence in car, details of Tori's injuries, clothing , landmarks at crime scene - all confirmed by other evidence

...the ATM transaction, going to Armstrong's house, buying the hammer and garbage bags at Home Depot, crime scene layout and sex assault.

Gowdey says the spots of DNA on the car and the gym bag do confirm the sexual assault happened.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:40 AM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdy continues with Rafferty's clean up with bottled water, disposal of shoes, change of clothes, cutting rear seat - all confirmed

He notes details of the clean up, throwing out the shoes, McClintic getting shoes/clothes, cutting the back seat, landmarks on the 401...

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said at least 25 details of McClintic's testimony can be confirmed independently - Why would she make it up?

... And the route from Woodstock to Guelph were all among the 25 independently confirmed pieces of McClintic's testimony Gowdey referenced.

Thinkzerz
05-09-2012, 11:41 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On the 401, she said Rafferty said "you know I'm going to **** her right?" Crown says McClintic knew what would happen, Tori would be killed

I don't get it. Didn't she take a child for MR to rape in the first place?

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:42 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown listing more than 20 things McClintic said that are confirmed by evidence


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey list 25 things McClintic said that were later independently confirmed by witnesses, police officers, video etc

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:45 AM
Gowdey notes there were some lies, but why give police that much detail if Rafferty was just an innocent dupe?

Going over the details of the car wash clean up Rafferty and McClintic did, and getting rid of evidence.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said McClintic's testimony should be considered with "caution" especially the difference between May 24 confession and at trial

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 11:45 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On the 401, she said Rafferty said "you know I'm going to **** her right?" Crown says McClintic knew what would happen, Tori would be killed

I don't get it. Didn't she take a child for MR to rape in the first place?

Sounds like he was making sure she knew he meant it. Or maybe he was excited and bragging about it.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:47 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown lists 25 things McClintic said that are confirmed by evidence. Crowns asks if this was a lie, why'd she make up such detail?

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:48 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey tells jurors they need to carefully consider McClintic's evidence because it's important. Says they have to be cautious

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:48 AM
11:48 RaffertyLFP: Court takes 10 minute break

10 minute break.

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 11:49 AM
Sounds like he was making sure she knew he meant it. Or maybe he was excited and bragging about it.

ITA ... seems he was reaffirming, just in case she wasn't really prepared for that aspect and thought it was all just about a dare re kidnapping a kid.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:50 AM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
@GAGATOLA Crown says TLM was not an entirely credible witness but she also had little reason to lie. She's already serving a life sentence

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 11:50 AM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Crown lists 25 things McClintic said that are confirmed by evidence. Crowns asks if this was a lie, why'd she make up such detail?

Not only "why" she would make up such detail, but "how" could she make up so much that was subsequently supported by the evidence.

JMO

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
"Look at all the evidence in the case and think about what supports [McClintic's] evidence and what doesn’t." - Crown.

greenthumb
05-09-2012, 11:52 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On the 401, she said Rafferty said "you know I'm going to **** her right?" Crown says McClintic knew what would happen, Tori would be killed

I don't get it. Didn't she take a child for MR to rape in the first place?

My thinking on this is that MR told TLM he wanted a girl... not explicitly saying what for, just get him a girl... and that once he had Tori in the back seat, he said to TLM "you know I'm going to **** her right?" JMO, HTH

ETA - and sadly, this is a scene that just sickens me... him getting off on telling TLM that he's going to **** her, with poor Tori cowering in the back seat under a coat, frightened beyond words. I know that many worse things happened that day, but for some reason, him gloating over what's to come... with that poor child trapped there, listening and TLM hoping she'd done what would 'earn' his love and approval - it is all just stomach turning. Evil, evil, evil.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 11:53 AM
Is there a video available of TLM being questioned by police that is available for the public? Thanks

Mike Knoll: - here's a video of an interview from 5/29/09: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/22/19536411.html

KMouse
05-09-2012, 11:57 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On the 401, she said Rafferty said "you know I'm going to **** her right?"

The fear Tori must have had after hearing that. She would be of the age where she knew a bad word was used but wouldn't know what exactly it meant.
Then to think MR began masturbating while driving down the isolated road. I doubt he zipped himself up before getting Tori out of the back seat. How horrible for this little girl to see a half naked man.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:00 PM
11:56 Mike Knoll: morning upate from Hank Daniszewski:

Michael Rafferty was at “the top of his game” in the days after Tori Stafford’s murder, keeping girlfriend Terri-Lynne McClinitc “onside” by visiting her behind bars.

“He had her right where he wanted her in the palm of his hand,” Crown attorney Kevin Gowdey said Wednesday, day two of his final argument to convict Rafferty for the 2009 murder of eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford.

But Gowdey said that all changed after May 15 when he was interviewed by police.

Worried “the net was closing,” Rafferty bought hair dye, replaced his smartphone, looked for a replacement for the back seat of his car and the Puma shoes he wore April 8, the day the Woodstock girl vanished on her way home from school.

Rafferty, 31, has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder, kidnapping and sexual assault causing bodily harm. McClintic, 21, his former girlfriend, pleaded guilty to first-degree murder and was sentenced to life in prison in April 2010.

Going over Rafferty’s phone records on the day Tori disappeared, Gowdey noted it was not used around 7 pm because that would have been when Rafferty was raping and murdering the girl, but the chatty calls to girlfriends resumed an hour later. “He never skipped a beat.”

He also steered jurors to the eight and a half minutes of surveillance video of Rafferty’s car sitting in the Home Depot parking lot while McClintic shopped inside.

“Just think of what Tori endured sitting there” alone with Rafferty, the Crown attorney said, “tired . . . hungry . . . terrified.”

Gowdey’s final argument continues today

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 12:01 PM
Sounds like he was making sure she knew he meant it. Or maybe he was excited and bragging about it.

Saying it made it more of a reality to them both and probably excited the <modsnip> and prepared TLM to help him. MOO.

antiquegirl
05-09-2012, 12:02 PM
The Crown is telling the jury that MTR panicked after his May 15 interview with LE and one of his attempts at covering his tracks was getting a new phone.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Gowdey now focusing on the May 15th weekend. He was interviewed by police on the 15th. Then started covering his tracks.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
He went to an auto wreckers yard, exchanged his blackberry.


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said Rafferty was panicking after police visit wanted to switch Blackberry, shoes, replacement back seat and looked for rental car

And yet, we have previous testimony by a Bell representative that it was before the interview that MTR got a new phone.


On May 14 he went to a Bell store to get a new BlackBerry, telling the sales associate that the battery wasn't lasting very long and he was having trouble with his chargers, court heard.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120417/rafferty-trial-to-hear-additional-evidence-120417/#ixzz1uNypautR


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Brady said Bell employees told him that Rafferty was customer at Masonville store on May 14th


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Brady talked to Masonville employee who sold Rafferty a phone on May 14 2009. Employee said Rafferty complained, wanted new one

I have found many inconsistencies, contradictions, and mistakes in this closing argument. Is the Crown deliberately trying to mislead the jury?

MOO MOO MOO

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:02 PM
RaffertyLFP: Jury coming back in

The jury has returned.

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey tells jury it may be hard to sort out which version of McClintic's story to accept

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:06 PM
RaffertyLFP: In her testimony at trial McClintic said she could not accept at first that she had killed Tori "what I wanted to believe"

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey points out that McClintic specified three hits with hammer at trial but said she didn't know how many in earlier statement

McClintic, on the stand, was adamant she killed Tori, but she could have corrected herself many times previous.

McClintic said she couldn't accept she killed Tori herself, so she lied to police. Gowdey suggests she may have told the truth.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:07 PM
McClintic said, at the time, she didn't know how many times Rafferty hit Tori with the hammer. Gowdey says the person who hit her would know

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey points out McClintic's vague confused testimony at trial about why she implicated Rafferty

RaffertyLFP: Court see a video of the May 24th confession where she says Rafferty did the actual killing

nursebeeme
05-09-2012, 12:09 PM
The Crown is telling the jury that MTR panicked after his May 15 interview with LE and one of his attempts at covering his tracks was getting a new phone.







And yet, we have previous testimony by a Bell representative that it was before the interview that MTR got a new phone.



http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120417/rafferty-trial-to-hear-additional-evidence-120417/#ixzz1uNypautR





I have found many inconsistencies, contradictions, and mistakes in this closing argument. Is the Crown deliberately trying to mislead the jury?

MOO MOO MOO

the closing argument is not evidence.

brighidin
05-09-2012, 12:09 PM
McClintic said, at the time, she didn't know how many times Rafferty hit Tori with the hammer. Gowdey says the person who hit her would know

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey points out McClintic's vague confused testimony at trial about why she implicated Rafferty

Thanks for posting the tweets! :o)

ETA: Thanks to everyone for posting them!!

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 12:09 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Crown asks jury if it makes sense that McClintic would decide to say she was the one that killed Tori in Jan. 2012.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Gowdey says McClintic had many opportunities to confess that she, no #Rafferty, killed Tori Stafford... but she didn't. Why change now?

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:10 PM
McClintic said on the stand Tori was hit three times.

Showing the May 24th Jim Smyth interview with McClintic again. Gowdey says the clip in 10 minutes long.

RaffertyLFP: McClintis is extremely distraught and weeping in the video

snoofer
05-09-2012, 12:10 PM
RaffertyLFP: Gowdey resumes - talking about Rafferty's connections to Wellington County

Gowdey tells the jury he'll take up "much" of today with the rest of his closing,

Rodney Stafford's family tells media that Tori's dad won't be coming to court today. Family says he's completely "saturated."

Now going over Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

he looked soooo tired and stressed in some of the press interviews. This is soooo wrong what these people have had to endure. MOO

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 12:11 PM
Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
Jury being shown again McClintic's interview with police on May 24/09.

antiquegirl
05-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Laura Carney‏@TheLC_75
Gowdey says only difference between her May 2009 police statement and her testimony here was who actually killed Tori.

According to previously-heard evidence, this is simply not true. At the very least, TLM also changed her version as to whose idea it was to purchase the hammer and garbage bags.


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said McClintic did not block the events from her memory She is now stepping up and saying "we did it"

And yet, in previous in testimony (evidence) by TLM, she claimed that she did. So, was this another lie, or is Gowdey trying to minimize the number of lies she actually told?

It seems to me that the Crown wants the jury to do exactly what <modsnip> JMO

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:13 PM
As with the last time this video was played, audio quality is poor on the 6th floor. Difficult to hear.

RaffertyLFP: In the video police officer asks "so you guys are in this together" McClintic says "yeah"

brighidin
05-09-2012, 12:13 PM
the closing argument is not evidence.

Exactly.

Not clear why the OP would automatically assume the crown is deliberately trying to mislead. I would presume it is a tweeting error. I can't imagine how hard it is to type all the tweets all day long. Yikes! A few errors/typos here and there aren't really that big of a deal and we don't know what exactly is being said in court.

sillybilly
05-09-2012, 12:15 PM
I have found many inconsistencies, contradictions, and mistakes in this closing argument. Is the Crown deliberately trying to mislead the jury?

MOO MOO MOO<rsbm>

There may be some inconsistencies because the closing argument is a summary of their position, not specific evidence being introduced. I think the blackberry was thrown in when summarizing the various attempts to evade LE, not just those that occurred after May 15. Or, being human, the Crown screwed up in the re-telling .. the evidence the jurors have in deliberation will speak for itself.

JMO

brighidin
05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
It seems to me that the Crown wants the jury to ...

JMO
SNB
So? I don't think it is a secret. They have said it before that she is a liar, but not everything she said is a lie. They are asking the jury to accept the things she said that matches with the other evidence. It isn't black or white - either disregard or accept everything word for word she said. I didn't think this was a new revelation.

imo

CarrieBean
05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
According to previously-heard evidence, this is simply not true. At the very least, TLM also changed her version as to whose idea it was to purchase the hammer and garbage bags.



And yet, in previous in testimony (evidence) by TLM, she claimed that she did. So, was this another lie, or is Gowdey trying to minimize the number of lies she actually told?

It seems to me that the Crown wants the jury to do exactly what WS members have been doing here - pick and choose which part of TLM's testimony to believe or disbelieve.

JMO

Really? How about all of the parts of her testimony that have been corroborated by evidence?

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
McClintic describes the killing, Rafferty's involvement. Rafferty watches closely in the courtroom.

McClintic is emotional in the video. Crying as she explains the crime to Smyth.

snoofer
05-09-2012, 12:17 PM
Here lies the problem, premeditated would be first degree, after the fact I am not so sure.

if you are part of a kidnapping and something goes wrong and the person is killed. It is first degree murder. Full Stop.

~n/t~
05-09-2012, 12:17 PM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Court is now watching a clip of McClintic's police confession on May 24,2009 where she says #Rafferty raped and killed #ToriStafford

Laura Carney ‏ @TheLC_75
In this statement, McClintic said it was #Rafferty who killed Tori.


Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
The jury is watching video from McClintic's confession to police on May24/09 where she said #Rafferty killed #ToriStafford.


Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Back from break. Crown playing video of McClintic's May 24/09 confession where she says how Rafferty raped and murdered Tori

matou
05-09-2012, 12:17 PM
‏ @RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP) In the video police officer asks "so you guys are in this together" McClintic says "yeah"

TopTop
05-09-2012, 12:17 PM
RaffertyLFP: In the video police officer asks "so you guys are in this together" McClintic says "yeah" [via Twitter]

matou
05-09-2012, 12:19 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) McClintic describes the killing, Rafferty's involvement. Rafferty watches closely in the courtroom.

Sailor Bug
05-09-2012, 12:20 PM
RaffertyLFP: In video McClintic says " I saw him kick her a couple of times like a stomp


12:20 RaffertyLFP: Rafferty looks grim watching video, shifts uncomfortably

RaffertyLFP: Gowdey said May 24th video made McClintic look "cruel and inhuman" because she gave terrified Tori to Rafferty

Flowercb
05-09-2012, 12:21 PM
<rsbm>

There may be some inconsistencies because the closing argument is a summary of their position, not specific evidence being introduced. I think the blackberry was thrown in when summarizing the various attempts to evade LE, not just those that occurred after May 15. Or, being human, the Crown screwed up in the re-telling .. the evidence the jurors have in deliberation will speak for itself.

JMO

Or the tweeters are hearing things wrong too. MOO.

matou
05-09-2012, 12:21 PM
@RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP) In video McClintic says " I saw him kick her a couple of times like a stomp"