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LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:09 PM
Jurors are asking for clarification on "if two people are present and one removes the child's underwear, are they both guilty of sexual assault"

ETA: IMO, answer should be "Yes" as the other did not take action to prevent the sexual assault. JMO

so they think she participated? this is about him!!!

I'm going to be sick ... I know I said I was going for a nap but I can't seem to pull myself away

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:10 PM
Judge and lawyers find that jury's question is vague

Judge and lawyers are discussing how to answer the jury's question.

Jury asks: if 2 people present and 1 takes of child's clothes, are one or both guilty of sexual assault?

"the principal is guilty" says Derstine

The lawyers think the question is vague and are trying to see how they can answer the jury

JayFriend
05-11-2012, 03:10 PM
When I was a teenager, I had a couple of friends who agreed that there was something "sexy" about serial killers. I didn't get it then, and I don't get it now. Thank goodness.
The ex of someone I know is shacked up with a pedophile that got out of jail some time ago. There's no accounting for taste. Maybe it makes her feel young.

Tahorn
05-11-2012, 03:10 PM
At the most my family and I thought he was gay. There was one time he said something odd about my daughter and then that was it for me. I couldn't do it anymore. I am so glad my spidy senses are about

I am happy that you were able to avoid his demented mentality, it is hard to really know what is going on in anyone’s mind.

There is an old saying that goes something like this “if your dog or kid doesn’t like the guy … the guy gotta go”. As adults we are taught not to judge people, give them the benefit of the doubt, while animals and small children still operate on instinct.

SFB73
05-11-2012, 03:10 PM
I think the question is showing they are again leading to a sex assault guilty verdict. There is no DNA solid conclusive evidence of a sex assault as the body was decomposed when found,but If they think he removed the clothing and the physical evidence shows TS found without clothing, things aren't looking good for MR

Bravo
05-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Hey in my mind all the question proves is they believe a rape took place. Since they truly dont know who did what and when I think the question is reasonable. Perhaps only because i like the answer.

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Judge and lawyers find that jury's question is vague

Judge and lawyers are discussing how to answer the jury's question.

#Rafferty had a knife in the car. He could have held the knife to Tori's throat and demanded her to take her own clothes off

Jury asks: if 2 people present and 1 takes of child's clothes, are one or both guilty of sexual assault?

If Terri's confession and testimony are true and she was not at the car she would not know of any threat of a knife by


SB....just friendly advice. Some tweets are not from reporters. The one about the knife is speculation from someone ...not a reporter, imo
xoxo

CarrieBean
05-11-2012, 03:12 PM
James Armstrong ‏ @jamesarmstrong7
Judge argues that you can't remove clothing without it being assault. involves force and attacks sexual integrity of the person.

I don't understand what he's saying here

paris_paris
05-11-2012, 03:13 PM
MOO... Jury is asking if he didn't rape her but was there when TLM took her clothes off can he still be guilty

maxfactor
05-11-2012, 03:13 PM
I think the question is showing they are again leading to a sex assault guilty verdict. There is no DNA hard evidence of sex assault but I'd they think he removed the clothing and the physical evidence shows TS found without clothing, things aren't looking good for MR

It looks like they definitely think there was a sexual assault but IMO they might think it was TLM who did it and they are wondering if he helped take off Tori's clothes?????

Bravo
05-11-2012, 03:13 PM
I think the question is showing they are again leading to a sex assault guilty verdict. There is no DNA hard evidence of sex assault but I'd they think he removed the clothing and the physical evidence shows TS found without clothing, things aren't looking good for MR

I agree. Mikey is going down!!!!! The Murder is obvious. The rape was up for debate.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Judge and lawyers find that jury's question is vague

Judge and lawyers are discussing how to answer the jury's question.

#Rafferty had a knife in the car. He could have held the knife to Tori's throat and demanded her to take her own clothes off

Jury asks: if 2 people present and 1 takes of child's clothes, are one or both guilty of sexual assault?

If Terri's confession and testimony are true and she was not at the car she would not know of any threat of a knife by

[bbm]

yeah, I'm confused too ...

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:14 PM
jury seems to be getting off track with vague question. Judge needs to get them focused.

@LindaNguyenPN: The lawyers think the question is vague and are trying to see how they can answer the jury

Camping outside #Ldnont courthouse, waiting for #Rafferty verdict to be returned.

seems to be getting off track with vague question. Judge needs to get them focused.

Allanae
05-11-2012, 03:14 PM
That question to the judge gives me hope! And I really like the the answer too.

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
The lawyers think the question is vague and are trying to see how they can answer the jury


I don't understand why the lawyers have to answer. Isn't it the judge's job????

Jezbel
05-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Yes, everyone comes back. Judge, jury

Jury asks if two people are present and one removes te clothes of a victim are they both charged with sexual assault?

Jury wants to know if 'they' can 'both' be charged with sexual assault.

Justice Heeney says whoever removed clothing can be found guilty of sexual assault

F!!! - Sorry Mods. I think they are really truly stuck on the SA charges.

Kittymama
05-11-2012, 03:15 PM
I don't understand what he's saying here

He's saying that even the act of removing clothing is sexual assault.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:16 PM
oh dear

please, please only post tweets from the reporters

CarrieBean
05-11-2012, 03:16 PM
MOO... Jury is asking if he didn't rape her but was there when TLM took her clothes off can he still be guilty

Oh GMAFB

ETA: Sorry Paris. I read that as a tweet. I see now that it's not. That wasn't directed at you.

I don't think that's what they're asking.

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:16 PM
CKNX Radio News ‏ @cknxnews
No jury yet. Lawyers and judge are discussing how to answer the question. They say it may be too vague to answer.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Okay I feel better now. I think they have the abduction and murder locked but the sexual assault which some on here couldnt agree on is where they are having the problem...Damn it show the lap top!!!!!!!!

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 03:17 PM
MOO... Jury is asking if he didn't rape her but was there when TLM took her clothes off can he still be guilty

This is what I think they are implying too...are you kidding me??? Why would TLM take her clothes off????? They are not asking if TLM can be guilty they are asking if MR is CAN be guilty if he was there or present....OMG...are we ****back to the CA case where the duct tape meant nothing!!!

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:17 PM
No jury yet. Lawyers and judge are discussing how to answer the question. They say it may be too vague to answer

Derstine argues that while the principal is guilty it depends on what the other person is doing

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:18 PM
James Armstrong ‏ @jamesarmstrong7
Derstine argues that while the principal is guilty it depends on what the other person is doing



UGH!!! JUDGE, you know the law. You answer it. Good lord! (banging head against the wall)

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Actually not relieved when the jury just said "if he was there and didnt rape her but was there when TLM removed the clothes'' OMG I cant handle this right now. For them to not know what we know is so wrong

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:18 PM
AM980 tweet:

"Derstine suggests both being guilty would depend on what the other person is doing during the removal of the clothing"

littlebirdie
05-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Doesn't faze me, they didn't ask anything in the CA trial and look what happened there. This tells me also that they are using their brains

I agree with you OldSoul2.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Actually not relieved when the jury just said "if he was there and didnt rape her but was there when TLM removed the clothes'' OMG I cant handle this right now. For them to not know what we know is so wrong

that was speculation by our poster paris_paris

not actually what the jury said

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:20 PM
AM980 tweet:

"Crown lawyer Michael Carnegie suggests they should ask the jury for clarity on the question. Heeney doesn't know what other person is doing."

Kittymama
05-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I wish I was as optimistic as some of you, but I think this is bad news. I hope I'm wrong. I feel like crying.

If they only knew...OMG.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:21 PM
Crown says Defence's approach to answering jury question will mislead the jury

jury was to be brought back in, until Crown Attorney Brian Crockett stood and presented an objection.

SOMEBODY removed Tori's clothes and underwear! You don't need to see it rain when you see the puddles!

'There's a lot of hatred.' #ToriStafford's dad talks #Rafferty, new evidence and more with @Caryn_Lieberman: http://bit.ly/K97kiU #SunNews

JayFriend
05-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I think the question is showing they are again leading to a sex assault guilty verdict. There is no DNA solid conclusive evidence of a sex assault as the body was decomposed when found,but If they think he removed the clothing and the physical evidence shows TS found without clothing, things aren't looking good for MR

I agree. Her clothing was missing below the waist and not found, so it's not like she undressed herself. Doesn't matter who of the two perps removed it, if one allowed the other to do it, they are both guilty of sexual assault. That's how I see it. Looks like we're getting somewhere!

Allanae
05-11-2012, 03:22 PM
To me it seems like the jury is thinking they were both there. This is good news to me.

SFB73
05-11-2012, 03:22 PM
There is no way a jury comprised with 9 women couldn't possibly think this child was not sexually assaulted by MR. Find 9 women on the street and ask them if a 28 year old male with his 18 year old "girlfriend" take a child, what do they think could happen if they drive to a remote field an hour and a half away....

Next time the jury comes back I suspect they will have the verdict. Likely after their dinner tonight.

Flowercb
05-11-2012, 03:23 PM
Judge and lawyers find that jury's question is vague

Judge and lawyers are discussing how to answer the jury's question.

Jury asks: if 2 people present and 1 takes of child's clothes, are one or both guilty of sexual assault?

"the principal is guilty" says Derstine

The lawyers think the question is vague and are trying to see how they can answer the jury

They are doubting the sexual assault charge--this is not good.MOO.

CarrieBean
05-11-2012, 03:23 PM
He's saying that even the act of removing clothing is sexual assault.

Got it now, thanks.

Bravo
05-11-2012, 03:23 PM
I wish I was as optimistic as some of you, but I think this is bad news. I hope I'm wrong. I feel like crying.

If they only knew...OMG.

I know. Hang in there.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:23 PM
AM980 tweet:


Crown lawyer Brian Crockett also believes clarification. Worries about misleading the jury.


Says the crown would object to this potential instruction.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:23 PM
AM980 tweet:

"Crown lawyer Michael Carnegie suggests they should ask the jury for clarity on the question. Heeney doesn't know what other person is doing."

yes, clarity would be good

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
#Rafferty jury was to be brought back in, until Crown Attorney Brian Crockett stood and presented an objection.

What's going on?

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Now the jury are back in the court room. Judge to ask them to clarify the question

Judge tells jury he does not have enough information to answer the question. Sends jury back to reframe question w/ more detail.

The judge tells the jury to return to the jury room and re-write the question to explain if the second person is doing anything

swedie
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
We are now into the seventh hour of deliberations. Yesterday they deliberated for two and today consider lunch break is now just over four hours. Staying positive a guilty verdict is coming very soon.

Tahorn I brought up the gay issue some time ago because it seemed somewhat fitting to some of MR's characteristics and traits. It is possibly MR has gay tendencies but has not acted upon it or at least we haven't heard about this yet. I wonder if all the issues around his upbringing, being sent to his aunt and uncles, not getting along with his brothers, dropping out of high school, might have had a bearing on that theory. Possibly he was picked on by brothers and others about his gay lisp. So he didn't go that direction because he couldn't deal with what people would think or say. I still believe he actually disliked women and used and abused them to fill his sick sexual needs and deflect gay accusations. Again we don't know enough about his past. Maybe he did have male encounters. What's weird now is to see MR search the internet for info about transgender and she male. Something definitely off in MR's sexual orientation. Time may tell. I just find it extremely odd and bewildering MR seemed to have no male friends in his life that we've heard from or about. Even RW had a close male friend who came forward to say he was shocked after hearing of RW arrest. MOO

They weren't seeking to include searches for: "transgender," "she male," "necrophilia videos," "real rape," "best program to download child porn," "naked girl seazing (sic)," "seizures girl," "seizures videos," "epileptic naked," "epileptic naked attack," "real gang rape" and "peeing."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/10/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1507887.html

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
To me it seems like the jury is thinking they were both there. This is good news to me.

Hope so because I'm not understanding the point of the question either

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Now the jury are back in the court room. Judge to ask them to clarify the question.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:24 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jury coming in now. They will be asked to reframe the question

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:25 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney reads the question. Says court suspects jurors mean convicted, not charged.

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:26 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Judge tells jury he does not have enough information to answer the question. Sends jury back to reframe question w/ more detail

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:27 PM
Heeney tells jury he can't answer question, not enough information to answer. Sent them to reframe question

The 3:30 lead: Deliberations on hold at #Rafferty trial as jurors ask another question. Listen Live http://www.570news.com/

TRIAL UPDATE: #Rafferty jury now leaving courtroom to go back and rephrase question for Judge

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:27 PM
that was speculation by our poster paris_paris

not actually what the jury said

Phew!!! Thanks for the clarification!!!

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Read in reverse order


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jury also has a question about wording in Heeney's charge. Asks if "not" is supposed to be in one line.



AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Tells jury they need more information about what the person not removing the clothing is doing. Jurors leave to rephrase.

matou
05-11-2012, 03:28 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court) Jury also has a question about wording in Heeney's charge. Asks if "not" is supposed to be in one line.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Jury has left to rephrase their question. Heeney going through a 3rd question they had about one of the "decision tree" options

Jury has another question this has to do with the word "not" being in a sentence in the charge. A question of grammar

RT @sunnewsnetwork: #ToriStafford's dad talks #Rafferty, new evidence & more with @caryn_lieberman: http://bit.ly/K97kiU

RT @thelc_75: Heeney tells jury he can't answer question, not enough information to answer. Sent them to reframe question.


Bon contexte: @AllisonJones_CP My behind-the-scenes look at McClintic's problematic testimony http://bit.ly/K1Q9xY #Rafferty

~n/t~
05-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Another question by the jury

Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow
Jury has one more question, about whether not believing evidence leads automatically to finding someone guilty

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:30 PM
I am sorry but the fact that Derstine said she was possibly killed while peeing sends of huge red flags when it comes to why her pants and underwear were missing. Come on this is common sense.....I do however understand because of no 100% DNA evidence this is why this is happening. I still dont have to like it :)

nursebeeme
05-11-2012, 03:31 PM
Yes, everyone comes back. Judge, jury

Jury asks if two people are present and one removes te clothes of a victim are they both charged with sexual assault?

Jury wants to know if 'they' can 'both' be charged with sexual assault.

Justice Heeney says whoever removed clothing can be found guilty of sexual assault

omg this is a great question and great news!

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:31 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney reads the question. Says court suspects jurors mean convicted, not charged.

if we have a jury that doesn't know the difference between the terms 'charged' and 'convicted', we're in really deep doo-doo JMO MOO IMO

JayFriend
05-11-2012, 03:32 PM
They are doubting the sexual assault charge--this is not good.MOO.
Presuming they already have the kidnapping and murder decided, I'm sure his future fellow tennants will rule on that one.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:32 PM
Another question by the jury

Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow
Jury has one more question, about whether not believing evidence leads automatically to finding someone guilty

Holy crap this doesnt make sense either LOL

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:32 PM
2nd question fr #Rafferty jury asks if 2 ppl are present and 1 removes clothing are both (guilty) of sexual assault?

A third question on the wording of the judges charge about not believing evidence that makes someone innocent.

Judge and lawyers have some difficulty in interpreting #Rafferty jury question #2. Judge asks jury to reframe question.

LindaNguyenPN
Just to be clear, I will remain with @PostmediaNews until the end of the #ToriStafford trial — whenever that may be #Rafferty

Jury left courtroom to write new, clarified question on what the 2nd present person is doing while 1st is sexually assaulting

Tahorn
05-11-2012, 03:32 PM
Okay I feel better now. I think they have the abduction and murder locked but the sexual assault which some on here couldnt agree on is where they are having the problem...Damn it show the lap top!!!!!!!!

Before I knew what I know now, the rape was the issue I was having. Maybe a part of me did not want it to happen but I just could not get my head around a couple that hardly knew each other stealing a child to rape. I honestly think that if I were on the jury I would have agreed to manslaughter but not 1st degree.

However if I were on the jury, and then found out about the evidence I was denied in the court room after I voted manslaughter I would be sick, just sick and never forgive myself. What a messed up system...

Shasta
05-11-2012, 03:34 PM
I am worried and keep wondering if a different judge would have made all the difference to this trial. The jury seem confused.

matou
05-11-2012, 03:34 PM
@TheLC_75 (https://twitter.com/#%21/TheLC_75) A third question on the wording of the judges charge about not believing evidence that makes someone innocent.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Court has recessed while #Rafferty jury reframes question.

Justice Heeney brings Jury in to tell to rephrase question. Doesn't explain what other person is doing.

Court is now recessed until the jury comes back with their clarified question #ToriStafford #Rafferty

jury also asks about judge charge about how rejecting evidence pointing to innocence is not an affirmation of guilt.

A third question on the wording of the judges charge about not believing evidence that makes someone innocent.

Rafferty jury also asks about judge charge about how rejecting evidence pointing to innocence is not an affirmation of guilt.

Rafferty trial: day-by-day timeline #infographic http://bit.ly/IOstxy

Kittymama
05-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Another question by the jury

Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow
Jury has one more question, about whether not believing evidence leads automatically to finding someone guilty

What??? I don't understand what they're asking here.

KMouse
05-11-2012, 03:36 PM
Before I knew what I know now, the rape was the issue I was having. Maybe a part of me did not want it to happen but I just could not get my head around a couple that hardly knew each other stealing a child to rape. I honestly think that if I were on the jury I would have agreed to manslaughter but not 1st degree.

However if I were on the jury, and then found out about the evidence I was denied in the court room after I voted manslaughter I would be sick, just sick and never forgive myself. What a messed up system...

What about removing a child's clothes? How did you feel about that?

nursebeeme
05-11-2012, 03:36 PM
it would seem they are on the SA charge now if you refer to the tree... If you refer to the poll (and also dna etc and lack of it because of the timeframe) they are most likely looking at MR for aiding and abetting rape right now or both..

imhoo...

(I bet they have already decided the principal MOO MOO MOO)

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:37 PM
Read in reverse order


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jury also has a question about wording in Heeney's charge. Asks if "not" is supposed to be in one line.



AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Tells jury they need more information about what the person not removing the clothing is doing. Jurors leave to rephrase.

ok, now I'm getting very worried

of course the word 'not' is supposed to be there ... can't they deduce that by the connection of his follow-up question to theirs?

(I need to calm down - I suppose I'm not being fair)

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:37 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors not believing evidence that someone is innocent does not make them guilty. Crown must still prove case beyond reasonable doubt

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:38 PM
Before I knew what I know now, the rape was the issue I was having. Maybe a part of me did not want it to happen but I just could not get my head around a couple that hardly knew each other stealing a child to rape. I honestly think that if I were on the jury I would have agreed to manslaughter but not 1st degree.

However if I were on the jury, and then found out about the evidence I was denied in the court room after I voted manslaughter I would be sick, just sick and never forgive myself. What a messed up system...

Just out of curiosity if I can ask you a question. When you weren't sure and Derstine said it was possible that while peeing she was killed. Did you find that a fishy thing to say?

I do understand why some were on the fence about the sexual assault even thought I had a gut feeling it happened I kept swaying from side to side. However when Derstine said that I was like, what??? Are you serious?

What was going on in your mind during that time?

No mean to disrespect at all I really am very curious because I just had a gut feeling he did do it and totally understand that it was weird that these two just met and could not have possibly have planned this.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:38 PM
another question by the jury

adrian morrow ‏ @adrianmorrow
jury has one more question, about whether not believing evidence leads automatically to finding someone guilty

???

Wth?

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:41 PM
In meantime, jury leaves a 3rd question to clarify wording used in part of judge's charge

Which decision tree is the word "not" missing from?

nursebeeme
05-11-2012, 03:41 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors not believing evidence that someone is innocent does not make them guilty. Crown must still prove case beyond reasonable doubt

well that is as confusing to me (scratches head)

Kittymama
05-11-2012, 03:41 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors not believing evidence that someone is innocent does not make them guilty. Crown must still prove case beyond reasonable doubt

Reasonable, jurors. Reasonable!

What evidence is there that someone is innocent? I'm scratching my head at these latest questions. Better than tearing my hair out, I suppose.

nursebeeme
05-11-2012, 03:42 PM
In meantime, jury leaves a 3rd question to clarify wording used in part of judge's charge

a third question?

okay.. not feeling so spritely now

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 03:42 PM
The answer IMO is YES because if he stood there and watched or allowed it he is still guilty, did they both use their hands to remove her pants....don't think so but who really knows...were they both there YES, what they should have said is "Is MR guilty if he did not rape the child nor pull her pants off but was there" that's what they want to know.

Tahorn
05-11-2012, 03:42 PM
What about removing a child's clothes? How did you feel about that?

There are so many other alternatives that could explain that ... anyone watching TV Crime shows sees where the cloths were removed to make it look like rape.

What bothers me now is the question ... If TLM removed the cloths, would MR be just as guilty. That is how I understand the question.

nursebeeme
05-11-2012, 03:43 PM
Another question by the jury

Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow
Jury has one more question, about whether not believing evidence leads automatically to finding someone guilty

rut roh

***come on guys... get it right***

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:44 PM
#Rafferty court reconvening.

Rafferty court back in session.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:44 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors not believing evidence that someone is innocent does not make them guilty. Crown must still prove case beyond reasonable doubt

Sorry for quoting myself, but

Seems the jury have forgotten that what Derstine said is NOT evidence

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:45 PM
Come on the fact that he kidnapped her and she is dead means first degree murder. I hope to God that they are not stuck on that and its just the sexual assault because I will lose my mind if I see manslaughter, I really will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:46 PM
2nd question done #Rafferty. Jury deliberating once

Judge is now back. Reading the second question.

Second question focuses on principal actor. The person removing the clothing. "violates the sexual integrity of the victim" judge #rafferty

Jury's new question: Does removing the clothing from child in unlawful, confined situation constitute as sexual assault? #Rafferty

maxfactor
05-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Sorry for quoting myself, but

Seems the jury have forgotten that what Derstine said is NOT evidence

That's what I'm thinking too SB!

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:47 PM
There are so many other alternatives that could explain that ... anyone watching TV Crime shows sees where the cloths were removed to make it look like rape.

What bothers me now is the question ... If TLM removed the cloths, would MR be just as guilty. That is how I understand the question.

omg what if they believe that TLM was the mastermind manipulator and that she set him up??? isn't this what his mom believed? oh no, oh no, oh no

Thinkzerz
05-11-2012, 03:48 PM
That's what I'm thinking too SB!

Exactly!

matou
05-11-2012, 03:48 PM
rut roh

***come on guys... get it right***

Maybe not believing TLM`s testimony on the stand? JMO

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:48 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

New Question: Does the removal of a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?

elepher50
05-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Okay I have lost track of what is going on. Anybody have a two-liner of what is going on right now?

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:49 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney will tell jurors the answer is yes.

swedie
05-11-2012, 03:50 PM
it would seem they are on the SA charge now if you refer to the tree... If you refer to the poll (and also dna etc and lack of it because of the timeframe) they are most likely looking at MR for aiding and abetting rape right now or both..

imhoo...

(I bet they have already decided the principal MOO MOO MOO)

I wonder if they are questioning in a round about way as to whether TLM was charged with sexual assault also. Jurors believe Tori was sexually assaulted but now they may be wondering by whom. They see the naked from the waist down as evidence against sexual assault. Remaining confident we are going to hear a guilty verdict real soon. Please remain positive friends. There is too much telling evidence for MR to get off. Jurors just want to be sure they cross all the T's and dot all the I's. MOO

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:50 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

New Question: Does the removal of a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?

the phrasing of this question means they believe she was kidnapped right? am I interpreting this correctly? am I freaking out too much? why yes, yes I am

arghhhhhhhh

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:51 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney will tell jurors the answer is yes.


YES YES YES YES YES!!! It does mean sexual assault!! Crossing fingers here, come on......

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:51 PM
Clarified question reads 'does removing a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute sexual assault' #Rafferty

Justice Heeney simply states yes. That constitutes as sexual assault.

3rd question is on wording of the judges charge about not believing evidence that makes someone innocent. #Rafferty #570news

maxfactor
05-11-2012, 03:52 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

New Question: Does the removal of a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?

This question really worries me, are they thinking MR's only involvement was that he helped remove Tori's clothes? Obviously some or one of them is not thinking that he raped Tori.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:52 PM
I wonder if they are questioning in a round about way as to whether TLM was charged with sexual assault also. Jurors believe Tori was sexually assaulted but now they may be wondering by whom. They see the naked from the waist down as evidence against sexual assault. Remaining confident we are going to hear a guilty verdict real soon. Please remain positive friends. There is too much telling evidence for MR to get off. Jurors just want to be sure they cross all the T's and dot all the I's. MOO

I wish I could be positive like you but I cant I am so stressed out right now. LOL.. I need alcohol :)

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 03:52 PM
Clarified question reads 'does removing a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute sexual assault' #Rafferty

He already answered this question prior with a yes right?

KMouse
05-11-2012, 03:53 PM
There are so many other alternatives that could explain that ... anyone watching TV Crime shows sees where the cloths were removed to make it look like rape.

What bothers me now is the question ... If TLM removed the cloths, would MR be just as guilty. That is how I understand the question.

Why would TLM or MR remove clothes to make this look like a rape? Are you saying that one of them could have removed the clothes after Tori was murdered to make it look like a rape?
Where are Tori's clothes?

Sorry, just trying to understand you way of thinking because there could be somebody on the jury with the same thought process.

LadyL
05-11-2012, 03:53 PM
taking a quick break & possibly puring some alcohol while I'm at it

I am shivering ... I think it's near

Bravo
05-11-2012, 03:54 PM
the phrasing of this question means they believe she was kidnapped right? am I interpreting this correctly? am I freaking out too much? why yes, yes I am

arghhhhhhhh

We are all freaking out. We dont need a real roller coaster cuz we are on a virtual one. Round of beers here for all. Cheers. To the outcome we pray for.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:54 PM
This question really worries me, are they thinking MR's only involvement was that he helped remove Tori's clothes? Obviously some or one of them is not thinking that he raped Tori.

Sounds to me like they are trying to justify the rape in the absence of forensic proof

JMO

brighidin
05-11-2012, 03:55 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

New Question: Does the removal of a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?

That is a better rephrasing. It sounds like they are agreed on the kidnapping charge. If not, the juror(s) who didn't agree with that charge would never let the question be re-phrased in this manner. IMO

I wonder if they think that TLM removed Tori's clothing while taking her to pee. I'm still confused.

As well, I suspect that the lawyers were arguing about the answer because appeals are often made on the grounds of an incorrect charge to the jury. The judge's answer has to appease both sides. I think.

Thinkzerz
05-11-2012, 03:55 PM
Maybe they feel there is no evidence of SA and they are looking for away to prove SA IMO

Allanae
05-11-2012, 03:55 PM
We are all freaking out. We dont need a real roller coaster cuz we are on a virtual one. Round of beers here for all. Cheers. To the outcome we pray for.
We need Nurse to get on a rollercoaster. Verdicts seem to come in when she is on real ones :-)

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:56 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors coming back now.

luvtenniss
05-11-2012, 03:56 PM
This question really worries me, are they thinking MR's only involvement was that he helped remove Tori's clothes? Obviously some or one of them is not thinking that he raped Tori.

I was worried about that, too, with the jury's question. And then I was worried that they thought only TLM renoved the clothes, but can MR be quilty because he was there.
Then my thinking took a different turn. I think they really want to find him guilty of SA, but because there is no concrete physical evidence, they are trying to find a way to still find him guilty. And the judge has now said "yes" to their question. I think it is a good sign!!

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Heeney says to clarified question that yes, that's sexual assault. Hasn't told jury yet. #Rafferty

Judge will be answering yes. Stripping a child of their clothes is sexual assault. #rafferty

Jury is being brought in. Judge will tell them that removing a child's underclothing in confinement situation is sex assault #ToriStafford

TRIAL UPDATE: THIRD question from #Rafferty jury; question is about evidence, believing some of it and not others.

Jury sent back to deliberations. #Rafferty

elepher50
05-11-2012, 03:57 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Jurors coming back now.

From twitter

JayFriend
05-11-2012, 03:57 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

New Question: Does the removal of a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney will tell jurors the answer is yes.

So there you have it. It's sexual assault and they were both there. Let's have the verdict already!

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:57 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney tells the jury the new question is much easier to answer. Short answer: Yes.

SFB73
05-11-2012, 03:57 PM
I believe they are looking at the removal of the clothes as their solid evidence that there was a sexual assault performed by MR. It's the logical sequence of events.

They don't have solid DNA evidence to say yes, guilty... But removal of 8 year olds clothing would lead them to think the next step would be sexual activity.

KMouse
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Laura Carney‏@TheLC_75

Clarified question reads 'does removing a child's clothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute sexual assault' #Rafferty

************************************************** *

OMG seriously? How can it NOT be?

Anyway....

Glad they are thinking "unlawful confinement" and not "innocent dupe going for a drive with a girlfriend who picked up a friend's kid from school".

brighidin
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
This question really worries me, are they thinking MR's only involvement was that he helped remove Tori's clothes? Obviously some or one of them is not thinking that he raped Tori.

Yeah. So they want to know if they can still find him guilty of SA even if they aren't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape occurred. (??)

IMO

I don't even know any more. I need to stop speculating. :/

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney reads the legal definition of sexual assault. Says removing the clothing is an act of force, and violates sexual integrity.

elepher50
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Heeney reads the legal definition of sexual assault. Says removing the clothing is an act of force, and violates sexual integrity.

AM980.ca

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 03:59 PM
Heeney has explained to the jury the answer to second question. Now working on 3rd question. #Rafferty

Third question. About the word "not" in a sentence. #rafferty

TRIAL UPDATE: THIRD question from #Rafferty jury; question is about evidence, believing some of it and not others.

elepher50
05-11-2012, 03:59 PM
Jury sent back to deliberate further

AM980.ca

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 04:00 PM
Read in reverse order:

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jury sent back to deliberate further.



AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

..."That does not amount to evidence of guilt". Crown must still prove its case.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney also slightly changes confusing wording in his charge. Tells them "If you totally reject evidence that points to innocence..."

maxfactor
05-11-2012, 04:00 PM
I wonder if Rafferty is rolling his eyes at these questions, or is he turning green cause he thinks he's going bye bye.

elepher50
05-11-2012, 04:00 PM
Heeney also slightly changes confusing wording in his charge. Tells them "If you totally reject evidence that points to innocence..." .."That does not amount to evidence of guilt". Crown must still prove its case

AM980.ca

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:01 PM
GUILTY I can feel it so bad right now. I think they will have the verdict in the next half hour....Here is hoping and praying with all that I have. If we do it all at the same time I think it will work. :)

greenthumb
05-11-2012, 04:01 PM
This question really worries me, are they thinking MR's only involvement was that he helped remove Tori's clothes? Obviously some or one of them is not thinking that he raped Tori.

I wonder if one or some of the jury are not 100% sure that he raped her, but that they do all believe that he removed her clothing... so they are asking if that constitutes sexual assault, because then they do not have to necessarily believe that the 'rape' happened in order to find guilty on the sexual assault charge. I hope.

swedie
05-11-2012, 04:02 PM
I wish I could be positive like you but I cant I am so stressed out right now. LOL.. I need alcohol :)


Help yourself peeps :) Drinks on me! Wish I knew how to post picture. I've done it before, just don't remember now. YUM!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images? q=tbn:ANd9GcRrlvRllFwC9ao1MYHJd2cU8yepRQaT5PBhd5UG 8jqLOHLlEm-l

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:02 PM
Jury is now being sent back into deliberations #ToriStafford #Rafferty

Bravo
05-11-2012, 04:05 PM
I do believe this Jury has him convicted already. However it would make my day to see him hung on the rape charge especially. Not only because i believe he did it. Because i think that one charge will make him angry. Angry they believed TLM. The one he calls a Liar. MOO Oh and i do want to see Smyth physically waving bye bye.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Come on Jury go with your gut!!! I feel they are so close.....

Bravo
05-11-2012, 04:07 PM
We need Nurse to get on a rollercoaster. Verdicts seem to come in when she is on real ones :-)

Somebody posted earlier not a good idea considering the last verdict lol So lets go with a ferris wheel?

maxfactor
05-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Looks like they may be on the aiding and abetting tree, that would be a good sign!!

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:07 PM
i do believe this jury has him convicted already. However it would make my day to see him hung on the rape charge especially. Not only because i believe he did it. Because i think that one charge will make him angry. Angry they believed tlm. The one he calls a liar. Moo oh and i do want to see smyth physically waving bye bye.

Justice is coming Tori

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:08 PM
Jury asks "if we reject evidence that someone is innocent" (aka TLM saying she did it, not #rafferty) "can we convict? A - No,

The jury sits until 9 p.m. If there is no verdict by then, they return tomorrow at 9 a.m

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:09 PM
You have got to be kidding me with these questions.. I am so stressed out. I cant imagine how the family is feeling right now..

brighidin
05-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Heeney also slightly changes confusing wording in his charge. Tells them "If you totally reject evidence that points to innocence..." .."That does not amount to evidence of guilt". Crown must still prove its case

AM980.ca

I really want to know what evidence they are referring to.

Jezbel
05-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Okay, I am feeling slightly better about things now, when they announced their first question, I was scared they were going in the wrong direction, now that is has been clarified and with the 3rd question about the wording, I think they are trying to find MR guilty. It seems as though they reject the evidence (or lack thereof) of innocence, at least that is something, if the judge said yes it leads to guilt, I think it would have been done.

elepher50
05-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Justice Thomas Heeney provided the jury with three "decision trees" to guide them on possible verdicts on the main charge of first-degree murder.

The first "tree" would be followed if the jury decided, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Rafferty was the actual killer of Stafford and intended to kill her.

The second tree would apply if the jury believed McClintic was the actual murderer but Rafferty "aided or abetted" in the murder. Both scenarios would trigger a first-degree conviction.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/10/19740536.html

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:11 PM
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/10/19740536.html

Praying!!!!!!!

swedie
05-11-2012, 04:12 PM
Jury asks "if we reject evidence that someone is innocent" (aka TLM saying she did it, not #rafferty) "can we convict? A - No,

Ouchie! So they are asking if TLM killed Tori then MR is innocent of murder? There is the other charge of 1st degree though; the abduction and death, that constitutes 1st degree.

Praying and keeping the faith Dear Tori!

TopTop
05-11-2012, 04:13 PM
BREAKING jury as another question but is taking break first. That's Question #4
Francis D'Souza ‏ @cityfrancis

brighidin
05-11-2012, 04:15 PM
BREAKING jury as another question but is taking break first. That's Question #4
Francis D'Souza ‏ @cityfrancis

What! Ask the question first then go for the break.
I think there are smokers on that jury. lol

pattywack
05-11-2012, 04:15 PM
Sounds to me like they are trying to justify the rape in the absence of forensic proof

JMO

You took the words right out of my mouth Sillybilly... I agree 100% . They are looking for justification to find him guilty due to lack of physical evidence.

swedie
05-11-2012, 04:16 PM
OK so maybe no veredict until they have another yummy supper hahaha. Right after supper, on a full tummy they will announce their decision on a guilty of all three charges verdict. Boy I sure miss the similes.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:17 PM
Hearing jury may have another question at #Rafferty trial






There may not be a verdict by 5, but a lot still happened today at #Rafferty trial. Catch up on CBC News at 5 #sl

@AdrianMorrow Did the jurors look at #Rafferty when they were in court? If so, what were their expressions?

Thinkzerz
05-11-2012, 04:18 PM
Oh no so all reporters are heading home at 5? So we wont hear if the jury asks anymore questions after that?

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:19 PM
I have to leave work in 10 mins and I am supposed to go out for dinner...How can they do this LOL... Come on already... Can someone PM me if a verdict is reached???? Please!?!?

Allanae
05-11-2012, 04:19 PM
What! Ask the question first then go for the break.
I think there are smokers on that jury. lol
After sitting on this jury I wouldn't be surprised it some of them turned into smokers!

Bravo
05-11-2012, 04:19 PM
A Friday night verdict would be perfect. The weather is fab and we could all have a drink and be dancing in the streets. The drink to salute Justice for Tori and the dance just to mock Rafferty lol

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Oh no so all reporters are heading home at 5? So we wont hear if the jury asks anymore questions after that?

I cant see them leaving, this is huge, why would they leave? Is that weird or what?

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:20 PM
After sitting on this jury I wouldn't be surprised it some of them turned into smokers!

I was thinking the exact same thing :)

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:20 PM
Many reporters will remain

At courthouse for #Stafford #Rafferty trial. Jury just went by for a fresh air break. Wondering if we'll see a decision this afternoon?

LadyL
05-11-2012, 04:21 PM
I cant see them leaving, this is huge, why would they leave? Is that weird or what?

the courthouse closes though ...

Bravo
05-11-2012, 04:21 PM
I have to leave work in 10 mins and I am supposed to go out for dinner...How can they do this LOL... Come on already... Can someone PM me if a verdict is reached???? Please!?!?

Will do but i have an hour or so i will be out. I'm sure enough of us here to cover ya.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:22 PM
the courthouse closes though ...

DUH! LOL I dont know why I didnt think of that. You would think that they would be allowed to stay for this.. JMO :) Wishful thinking is all

Kittymama
05-11-2012, 04:22 PM
I cant see them leaving, this is huge, why would they leave? Is that weird or what?

I totally read your last sentence in William Shatner's voice.

Thinkzerz
05-11-2012, 04:23 PM
the courthouse closes though ...

So the judge leaves for the night? What if jury has more questions?

paris_paris
05-11-2012, 04:23 PM
OK. I was out in my garden, and it's a pita to post from my phone.

Let's say 7 jurors think he raped Tori. 2 jurors aren't sure there's enough proof. So they go back and ask a question like "if he was there when her clothes were taken off does that make him guilty", then that could help those 2 jurors make a decision.

I think the other question had to do with... if TLM testified she killed Tori, and they don't believe her testimony, does that automatically make MTR guilty of the murder.

Just the way I'm reading things, MOO, all that stuff. I have faith in this jury.

Oh, and I checked my garden. My purple flowers have died off, but my Bleeding Hearts came out today... and my Star of David.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:23 PM
I totally read your last sentence in William Shatner's voice.

Hahahah :)

LadyL
05-11-2012, 04:24 PM
DUH! LOL I dont know why I didnt think of that. You would think that they would be allowed to stay for this.. JMO :) Wishful thinking is all

they can certainly stay outside and tweet if the lawyers get called in but I don't know how it works if the verdict is reached at say, 8 p.m. - not sure whether they're allowed back in for it or what

maybe someone can ask on twitter???

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:25 PM
Reports of the jury at #Rafferty trial about to ask a fourth question are mistaken. No 4th question.

Clarification only 3 questions have been asked by the jury. No 4th.

paris_paris
05-11-2012, 04:25 PM
Reports of the jury at #Rafferty trial about to ask a fourth question are mistaken. No 4th question.

4th question = "can we go out for a smoke?"

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:27 PM
I think they are almost ready for the verdict... Come on guys 4 mins and I have to leave..

I want to see the look on that jack a@@ face when they read the verdict. I am sure he will say he is innocent!!! Loser!!

LadyL
05-11-2012, 04:27 PM
So the judge leaves for the night? What if jury has more questions?

I don't know the answer. Maybe they will call them all back in or maybe they will be working late until 9 p.m. I'm really not sure.

Bravo
05-11-2012, 04:28 PM
I hope this break is to collect their thoughts. Have a group hug and deliver their verdict.

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:28 PM
I told you between 4-6pm the latest.....lol my gut is pretty strong

LadyL
05-11-2012, 04:29 PM
4th question = "can we go out for a smoke?"

LOL!

I don't blame them.

crazyladi
05-11-2012, 04:30 PM
Okay I am off, I will shut my big mouth until I get back tonight... You guys are amazing and I love you all for caring so much for this child. Its like we all lost a child that day and I am glad that I can share my thoughts with all of you. ***HUGS****

kmclaren
05-11-2012, 04:30 PM
15 hours is what the Shafia jury took, there was some talk about it being quite short:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/video/video-was-the-shafia-jury-deliberation-too-short/article2320914/

my twitter is way too quiet right now!!

Jezbel
05-11-2012, 04:32 PM
DUH! LOL I dont know why I didnt think of that. You would think that they would be allowed to stay for this.. JMO :) Wishful thinking is all

Most of the media and Tori's family are hanging around outside the courthouse. They seem to only go inside if the jury is brought back in the courtroom. If the jury has questions after 5, I believe media and the family will still be allowed into the courthouse as technically court is in session.

JMO

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:33 PM
You took the words right out of my mouth Sillybilly... I agree 100% . They are looking for justification to find him guilty due to lack of physical evidence.

No IMO I think they have one or two in there that probably don't believe he did it

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:34 PM
What! Ask the question first then go for the break.
I think there are smokers on that jury. lol

I know I have smoked ten cigarettes already, especially hearing their questions and knowing what we know

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:36 PM
Okay I am off, I will shut my big mouth until I get back tonight... You guys are amazing and I love you all for caring so much for this child. Its like we all lost a child that day and I am glad that I can share my thoughts with all of you. ***HUGS****

LOL I can send you a PM if they reach a verdict if you want

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:36 PM
LOVE this tweet:

If "common sense" prevails, the jurors will be going home tonight & #Rafferty will be starting his life sentence. #ToriStafford

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:37 PM
4th question = "can we go out for a smoke?"

LMAO!!! Thanks for breaking the tension....too funny

swedie
05-11-2012, 04:39 PM
No worries we are just entering our eighth hour of deliberation. The jurors just want to make certain the get it right. The guilty verdict is coming. Pfft he'll probably start crying and say "I didn't do it". The psychopath that he is. MOO


I think they are almost ready for the verdict... Come on guys 4 mins and I have to leave..

I want to see the look on that jack a@@ face when they read the verdict. I am sure he will say he is innocent!!! Loser!!

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:40 PM
RT @AveryFreeFMNews: Judge's answer to sexual assault question in short: "yes" #Rafferty Means guilty on all three counts!

Peekaboo10
05-11-2012, 04:41 PM
Back getting caught up... wearing purple (thank goodness it's a t-shirt, it's a warm one here today)

Again a big hug to all!

robynhood
05-11-2012, 04:42 PM
oh I shall turn on twitter ...I see people are getting news which I did not know was happening...I shall see what I can find and if I do find anything will post here ...? is that the right place??? ...must ask my tech son how to ask question on twitter...online here ...see ya too all my great friends ..yep robin will do her famous rockin robin job here ....I shall try my best ....thanks again my hear is relly broken about all this also.....UGH I was just at York Central hospital in Richmond hill and parked in the high school parking lot of that school that M.R. went to so many years ago.....there has been NO NEWS of him as a child ....not a thing! ......robynhood!

CarrieBean
05-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Ugh, still no verdict?

I stressed out at 2 garden centres. Couldn't find the right purple flower.

ETA: I did see a novelty t-shirt in Macs though, that says "I'm on the Twitter".

TopTop
05-11-2012, 04:44 PM
Francis D'Souza ‏ @cityfrancis
@cityfrancis false alarm not question #4

Jezbel
05-11-2012, 04:45 PM
No worries we are just entering our eighth hour of deliberation. The jurors just want to make certain the get it right. The guilty verdict is coming. Pfft he'll probably start crying and say "I didn't do it". The psychopath that he is. MOO

I think it's about 6-6 1/2 hrs when you consider lunch and breaks and also when they were watching the video for about an hour this morning. I'm hoping they come to one before 9pm tonight.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Jury dinner from 5:30 to 7pm. Back at 9. #Rafferty (if no verdict before then)

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 04:49 PM
below tweet is just a news story...clarifies what the Jury did ask earlier today



AdrianMorrow
Jury has two more questions in the #Rafferty case, back to deliberating. Writethrough http://tinyurl.com/6n6vufn via @globeandmail

London court still busy with reporters, and family of Tori Stafford... Anxious for a verdict.

gardenia
05-11-2012, 04:57 PM
Just heard Steven Skurka (Toronto criminal defence lawyer) on John Tori Show (Newstalk 1010) ... he said he said wasn't able to express his opinion before but that he can now say the evidence is "overwhelming". He thinks this will be a guilty verdict & that we should know by the end of tomorrow.

Okay, I can breathe a little better now!

Mystic
05-11-2012, 04:58 PM
just got home from work, guess no verdict yet, sheesh and loads of threads to catch up on, oh my

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 04:59 PM
IMO I think they are voting right now for final answer....someone is stubborn, just a feeling, there's so much action going on right now I can't see them going past tonight, hopefully not that is

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:01 PM
A video for an hour, a few words than an two hour lunch followed by a couple of questions and 2 smoke breaks, seriously, can I have this job lol

serialmom32
05-11-2012, 05:04 PM
A video for an hour, a few words than an two hour lunch followed by a couple of questions and 2 smoke breaks, seriously, can I have this job lol

love your sence of humor

TopTop
05-11-2012, 05:06 PM
A video for an hour, a few words than an two hour lunch followed by a couple of questions and 2 smoke breaks, seriously, can I have this job lol

Only problem is it doesn't pay very well....and if you make a mistake you have to live with it for the rest of your life. :(

robynhood
05-11-2012, 05:06 PM
..just thought I would let you know the jury comes every day 7 days a week from 9am-9pm naturally with breaks and lunch....courthouse in London is packed with reporters ...there is a news room .Tori's parents are both in courthouse waiting for verdict ...everyone is anxious like us online for a VERDICT already!!!.....robynhood...info in case others did not realize as I did NOT!..I am sure when a verdict is reached it will be immediately on Cp 24 NEWS for all of you in Toronto like I am !!!...that I am sure everyone in toronto would know tho...robynhood

LadyL
05-11-2012, 05:08 PM
alright, it's after 5 - they're on dinner break so I'm finally going to get a nap in (even though I should be doing laundry)

maybe they'll come back before 9 with a verdict ... I sure hope so


JUSTICE FOR VICTORIA!

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Only problem is it doesn't pay very well....and if you make a mistake you have to live with it for the rest of your life. :(

With this evidence I would have had no problem. You take an 8yr old in the middle of the woods, she is found without her pants on, broken ribs, lacerated liver and dead under rocks and there's no denial he was there actually proof he was, TLM deserves to go and so does he, simple as that IMO

serialmom32
05-11-2012, 05:12 PM
I started crocheting a purple shawl on the first day of the trial. My goal is to finish by the time the guilty verdict is read. I am almost finished just adding the fringe. This how I stay calm

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Jury is still out in #Rafferty trial. Family, reporters and others hanging around the courthouse.

Jury still out on #Rafferty will break for supper soon (5:30PM)



Update from Court today nine-woman, three-man Jury panel

10 a.m- the jury asked to re-watch a video of Ontario Provincial Police investigator Jim Smyth questioning Terri-Lynne McClintic about the crime (May 24, 2009)

3 p.m.,-the jury had two more questions:

Jury Question 1-If two people are present when a child's clothes are removed from the waist down, can both be charged with a sexual assault

Crown: Mr. Justice Thomas Heeney asked the jury to clarify the question as it did not specify what, if anything, the second person was doing when the clothes were removed

Jury rephrased Question 1: If a child's clothing is removed while the child is unlawfully confined, would that constitute sexual assault?

Crown answers: Yes

Jury Question 2: jury asked the judge to clarify a point in his charge that concerned whether they could reach a verdict if they simply disbelieved some evidence that pointed towards innocence

No, Mr. Justice Heeney said: Even if they totally reject evidence that points towards someone's innocence, they still have to believe other evidence to convict.

Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, arrived on Friday carrying her two favourite photos of her daughter. Tori's father, Rodney Stafford, wore a purple tie – his daughter's favourite colour – as he walked in with his girlfriend and several relatives shortly before 9 a.m.

Mystic
05-11-2012, 05:14 PM
I think it's about 6-6 1/2 hrs when you consider lunch and breaks and also when they were watching the video for about an hour this morning. I'm hoping they come to one before 9pm tonight.

can some one tell me which video they ask to watch and how many questions they've asked please

I'm really concerned about this jury, it's that simple to me, he knew he was kidnapping and therefore 'why' would be the child found without clothes waist down (since no other evidence was produced; Derstines questions are irrelavent,just heresay & not evidence).

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Wouldn't we have heard via Twitter if they were having dinner?

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Wouldn't we have heard via Twitter if they were having dinner?

Someone posted here that they will have supper at 5:30

Bravo
05-11-2012, 05:17 PM
I started crocheting a purple shawl on the first day of the trial. My goal is to finish by the time the guilty verdict is read. I am almost finished just adding the fringe. This how I stay calm

That's so sweet. Let us know when your done.

TopTop
05-11-2012, 05:18 PM
With this evidence I would have had no problem. You take an 8yr old in the middle of the woods, she is found without her pants on, broken ribs, lacerated liver and dead under rocks and there's no denial he was there actually proof he was, TLM deserves to go and so does he, simple as that IMO

I pray that you are right. I was 100% sure he was guilty before we found out everything we did yesterday but others were not. If this jury decides not guilty and then finds out everything we did they will be shattered. So will I.

Do the jury members have any communications with their family at all? If so, and I am ever on a jury I think I will come up with a code word...if my husband says xxx on the phone then 100% guilty :)

Flowercb
05-11-2012, 05:20 PM
alright, it's after 5 - they're on dinner break so I'm finally going to get a nap in (even though I should be doing laundry)

maybe they'll come back before 9 with a verdict ... I sure hope so


JUSTICE FOR VICTORIA!

I took my daily walk during their lunch and have been squeezing in my chores according to their schedule all day. lol.

otto
05-11-2012, 05:21 PM
So the judge leaves for the night? What if jury has more questions?

They go home and remain on call. If there is a question or verdict, they go back to court.

Mystic
05-11-2012, 05:21 PM
With this evidence I would have had no problem. You take an 8yr old in the middle of the woods, she is found without her pants on, broken ribs, lacerated liver and dead under rocks and there's no denial he was there actually proof he was, TLM deserves to go and so does he, simple as that IMO

ITA

if there was no cass video.. these two would be free and a half naked childs body would be found one day, what would the assumption/conclusion be?
okay i have to relax, if they get this wrong I will have removed my faith in any common sense... most times what is..is that simple

Mystic
05-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I pray that you are right. I was 100% sure he was guilty before we found out everything we did yesterday but others were not. If this jury decides not guilty and then finds out everything we did they will be shattered. So will I.

Do the jury members have any communications with their family at all? If so, and I am ever on a jury I think I will come up with a code word...if my husband says xxx on the phone then 100% guilty :)

bbm

LOL thanks for the laughter

snoofer
05-11-2012, 05:23 PM
omgosh fell asleep...thought oooo...bet verdict is in.....nadda :O(

that is a long day for TS family at the courthouse

is there lots of people at the courthouse??????? MOO

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I pray that you are right. I was 100% sure he was guilty before we found out everything we did yesterday but others were not. If this jury decides not guilty and then finds out everything we did they will be shattered. So will I.

Do the jury members have any communications with their family at all? If so, and I am ever on a jury I think I will come up with a code word...if my husband says xxx on the phone then 100% guilty :)

To my knowledge, sequestered means no communication at all with the outside including watching certain channels so they don't get tainted by any media or others opinions. I 100% agree with you, it would be the worst mistake they ever made.

robynhood
05-11-2012, 05:25 PM
RaffertyLFP VIDEO: comments from Tori Stafford's mom, dad and Michael Rafferty's lawyer: http://t.co/j6EsM72o

I am not sure if anyone saw these videos...looks like they are from yesterday after jury was sequestered!...interesting what RODNEY SAID!...twitter is very quiet but this video was posted on twitter....not sure if it should be here tho....???...robynhood

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:26 PM
Rafferty Jury is scheduled to go for dinner between 5:30 and 7. Not sure if they'll follow schedule.

Jury is on a dinner break, I'm told. They will continue deliberations at 7 p.m. #Rafferty #ToriStafford

The #LDNOnt courtroom is now closed to the public. Media and #ToriStafford's family allowed to stay in case jury reaches verdict

Defence lawyer Dirk Derstine addressing media outside #Ldnont courthouse. No verdict yet.

TRIAL UPDATE: #Rafferty Jury now on dinner break

RT @raffertylfp: VIDEO: comments from Tori Stafford's mom, dad and Michael #Rafferty's lawyer: http://bit.ly/IJNwT7

@KINSAfoundation legal director discusses withheld #Rafferty evidence and its potential to prejudice jury. http://ow.ly/aRmtL

Rafferty jury just started their dinner break. I'll be up on @CTVKitchener in 30 minutes with where things stand.

Bravo
05-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Rafferty Jury is scheduled to go for dinner between 5:30 and 7. Not sure if they'll follow schedule.

If they dont it may mean they are close

robynhood
05-11-2012, 05:32 PM
RaffertyLFP Jury taking dinner break until 7 p.m.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 05:32 PM
AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Jurors going on dinner break. Back at 7. No verdict until then

robynhood
05-11-2012, 05:33 PM
AM980_Court Jurors going on dinner break. Back at 7. No verdict until then.

TopTop
05-11-2012, 05:34 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Jurors going on dinner break. Back at 7. No verdict until then

:(

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Back later ... have some chores to do

Jezbel
05-11-2012, 05:37 PM
omgosh fell asleep...thought oooo...bet verdict is in.....nadda :O(

that is a long day for TS family at the courthouse

is there lots of people at the courthouse??????? MOO

When I walked by earlier it was mostly media and family.

flipflop
05-11-2012, 05:37 PM
RaffertyLFP VIDEO: comments from Tori Stafford's mom, dad and Michael Rafferty's lawyer: http://t.co/j6EsM72o

I am not sure if anyone saw these videos...looks like they are from yesterday after jury was sequestered!...interesting what RODNEY SAID!...twitter is very quiet but this video was posted on twitter....not sure if it should be here tho....???...robynhood

What was the jury's first question?

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Watching the watchers. Defence counsel addressing media on jury dinner break. #Rafferty #Stafford http://yfrog.com/oduigexj

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:38 PM
geez.....was he there? Yes? Guilty of murder in the first. Was she found without her pants on and his sperm and her blood mixed in his car? Yes, Guilty of rape. Did he participate in taking her against her own will by using his car and driving to the woods? Yes, Guilty of abducting a child....END OF STORY come on!!!

snoofer
05-11-2012, 05:38 PM
omygosh the photo bracelet that TM is wearing is sooo cute! MOO

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:39 PM
What was the jury's first question?


Update from Court today nine-woman, three-man Jury panel

10 a.m- the jury asked to re-watch a video of Ontario Provincial Police investigator Jim Smyth questioning Terri-Lynne McClintic about the crime (May 24, 2009)

3 p.m.,-the jury had two more questions:

Jury Question 1-If two people are present when a child's clothes are removed from the waist down, can both be charged with a sexual assault

Crown: Mr. Justice Thomas Heeney asked the jury to clarify the question as it did not specify what, if anything, the second person was doing when the clothes were removed

Jury rephrased Question 1: If a child's clothing is removed while the child is unlawfully confined, would that constitute sexual assault?

Crown answers: Yes

Jury Question 2: jury asked the judge to clarify a point in his charge that concerned whether they could reach a verdict if they simply disbelieved some evidence that pointed towards innocence

No, Mr. Justice Heeney said: Even if they totally reject evidence that points towards someone's innocence, they still have to believe other evidence to convict.

Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, arrived on Friday carrying her two favourite photos of her daughter. Tori's father, Rodney Stafford, wore a purple tie – his daughter's favourite colour – as he walked in with his girlfriend and several relatives shortly before 9 a.m.

snoofer
05-11-2012, 05:40 PM
I would be frustrated. I would want to just have lunch brought in and supper brought in. Pizza or sandwiches...let's get 'er done! MOO

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Derstine says #rafferty is also on pins and needles.

Derstine says he is on pins and needles waiting for a verdict.

Derstine says any crime against a child is hideous and should be dealt with "very severely" #rafferty http://twitpic.com/9jxcbx

defence lawyer Dirk Derstine speaking to reporters http://pic.twitter.com/yspA4Ku2

Thinkzerz
05-11-2012, 05:43 PM
I would be frustrated. I would want to just have lunch brought in and supper brought in. Pizza or sandwiches...let's get 'er done! MOO

Maybe that is what their doing??

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:44 PM
lol funny tweet

Is jury still deliberating whether these "trees" are maple or birch?

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Derstine says #rafferty is also on pins and needles.

Derstine says he is on pins and needles waiting for a verdict.

Derstine says any crime against a child is hideous and should be dealt with "very severely" #rafferty http://twitpic.com/9jxcbx

defence lawyer Dirk Derstine speaking to reporters http://pic.twitter.com/yspA4Ku2

I'm sure he is, although personally I don't care and Derstine should realize most don't either. He is right, it's a hideous crime by his guilty client who should be punished severely and worst is he knew all the evidence and defended him.

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Ohhh ... just had to come back to tell you this. I have purple lilacs outside my bedroom window and had brought a big bunch inside today. I just walked into my bedroom to see 5 or 6 butterflies flitting around in the lilacs outside my window ... first ones i've seen this year.

impatientredhead
05-11-2012, 05:50 PM
I am really surprised they are not back yet.
If they started with a preliminary vote to see where everyone was starting from.... I am struggling for the right words, but if everyone was on the "regardless of who swung the hammer she was kidnapped and raped and died during those intentional felonies" guilty vote.... they would be done by now.

And I don't get the can two people be guilty of sexual assault if _____ question from the jury. They are suppose to be deciding if he is guilty of the charge. It isn't relevant whether one, two or a dozen other people can be charged with her sexual assault. They aren't on trial today, he is.

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 05:52 PM
Derstine says #rafferty is also on pins and needles.

Derstine says he is on pins and needles waiting for a verdict.

Derstine says any crime against a child is hideous and should be dealt with "very severely" #rafferty http://twitpic.com/9jxcbx

defence lawyer Dirk Derstine speaking to reporters http://pic.twitter.com/yspA4Ku2


BBM: Good.

Wonder what he will be on when he hears the verdict?

Anyone want to guess as to what his outburst will be? Crying? Whining?

Heliotrope
05-11-2012, 05:53 PM
It's making me so despondent to hear people say they didn't believe he could be guilty because they didn't want to believe it could be possible. I sincerely hope no one is of that mind on the jury.

I'll say it again. Google 'atrocities' and any one of Rwanda, Kosovo, Congo, Holocaust, Nanking.

And the best part is that if society and law & order broke down in Canada, it would happen here too. For every one Rafferty that goes through with it, there are probably 1,000 or 10,000 more who would go through with it if something pushed them over the edge or if the conditions were just right.

Sorry for being depressing, but as adults, if we're going to protect our children, we have to confront the dark parts of human nature. Head-in-sand approach won't work.

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 05:54 PM
I am really surprised they are not back yet.
If they started with a preliminary vote to see where everyone was starting from.... I am struggling for the right words, but if everyone was on the "regardless of who swung the hammer she was kidnapped and raped and died during those intentional felonies" guilty vote.... they would be done by now.

And I don't get the can two people be guilty of sexual assault if _____ question from the jury. They are suppose to be deciding if he is guilty of the charge. It isn't relevant whether one, two or a dozen other people can be charged with her sexual assault. They aren't on trial today, he is.

They are referring to him and whether he is guilty if.....which IMO told me they think that TLM did the deed and does he get the same punishment in regards to the rape. If they thought without a doubt that he raped her, this question wouldn't have been asked IMO. Little did they know that he has licked his chops to do this for 7 years

swedie
05-11-2012, 05:55 PM
RaffertyLFP Jury taking dinner break until 7 p.m.

Yeppers, going to enjoy a yummy supper before delivering their guilty verdict!

Nine hours of deliberation time so far. I remain positive. The jurors are going over everything as they do not want to take the chance of being accused of a rush to judgement in MO. There is so much to discuss in this case and just to think how much each of us have thoughts and questions to contribute; they do also. They have never been able to discuss any aspects of this case over the last nine weeks. The jurors are just going through the motions and may have decided hours ago and just caught up in discussing it with all their different view points IMHO. Hope and prayers!

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 05:55 PM
I haven't totally caught up on the afternoon's events, but, I see the Jury has asked some questions.

That is good. It tells me they are thoroughly analyzing the evidence, and are not rushing things, because they had to be brought back into court etc.

Take your time and get it right, Jury.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 05:56 PM
lawyer Dirk Derstine tells a media scrum that he and his client are on pins and needles.

I knew the Kewpie dolls I made of them...would come in handy
Been pricking them all day lol

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 05:58 PM
As we know, Victoria was found without her bottom clothes on.

Therefore, it certainly seems as if the Jury was looking for confirmation that because of that fact, they could infer a sexual assault took place.

This is good.


"Does removing a child's underclothing in an unlawful confinement situation constitute a sexual assault?" jurors asked Justice Thomas Heeney in writing.

"The short answer is yes," Heeney replied after reading the question aloud. "Sexual assault is defined as the intentional application of force to the victim in circumstances of a sexual nature where the sexual integrity of the victim is violated."

"The act of removing clothing involves the application of some force to the child," he continued.

"Stripping a child in this manner would violate the sexual integrity of a child."

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/11/19746896.html

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 06:04 PM
lawyer Dirk Derstine tells a media scrum that he and his client are on pins and needles.

I knew the Kewpie dolls I made of them...would come in handy
Been pricking them all day lol

LOL

Anyone care for a pin?

*passing the pins around the WS Group*

http://www.wristbandconnection.com/wristbands-events/uploaded_images/pins-needles-day-bracelet-725102.gif

Dmman
05-11-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm sorry, but in the days leading up to the jury being sequestered, I had to refrain from posting & reading some of the <modsnip> comments. I couldn't listen/read any more <modsnip> comments from people who had different theories than what I perceived to be the guilty facts of this case!!!

Now that he horrific characterization of MR has been fully released...it's been a long couple of days waiting for that verdict.

To all the faithful supporters out there, the wait is almost over!!! Tick tock!!!

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow (https://twitter.com/#%21/AdrianMorrow)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AdrianMorrow) #Rafferty (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23Rafferty)'s lawyer Derstine: "Any sex offence against a child is a hideous, horrible crime and should be punished harshly." #ToriStafford (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23ToriStafford)

Heliotrope
05-11-2012, 06:05 PM
And I don't get the can two people be guilty of sexual assault if _____ question from the jury. They are suppose to be deciding if he is guilty of the charge. It isn't relevant whether one, two or a dozen other people can be charged with her sexual assault. They aren't on trial today, he is.

I was nervous about how they phrased the question the first time - I read it as "If TLM removed her clothes, would MTR be guilty". The judge seemed to say "no, only the principal" then "depends on what he's doing", then "wait - rephrase the question".

The way they phrased it the second time makes me think think that they have accepted the crown's assertion that they were working together. The answer couldn't have been clearer - both parties would be guilty.

Cautious hope...I believe this was the part of the charge least substantiated by evidence other than TLM's statement. Thanks in no small part to Rafferty's refusal to help lead LE to her remains. I'm very glad the judge gave such specific guidance regarding the lack of clothing.

Not to toot our own horn, but we discussed this very issue extensively, and came to the same conclusion as the judge directed - to forcibly remove clothing is sexual assault as certainly as rape is sexual assault.

As angry as I am with 'His Honour', I believe the judge wants him put away as badly as we all do.

Sailor Bug
05-11-2012, 06:06 PM
#Rafferty's lawyer, Dirk Derstine, said there is no way of knowing what the questions mean or how deliberations are going


I'll be back @ 7:00 {{{{ HUGS to EVERYONE }}}}

Praying: JUSTICE for Tori------->Tonight

mofo75ca
05-11-2012, 06:07 PM
After 3 + years of following the Casey Anthony trial and knowing 100% she was guilty I am so nervous right now. I don't think I can handle another not guilty verdict... especially knowing what the jury DOESN'T!

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Has anyone had a good look at the Decision Tree, to try and decipher where they are?

Heliotrope
05-11-2012, 06:13 PM
As we know, Victoria was found without her bottom clothes on.

Therefore, it certainly seems as if the Jury was looking for confirmation that because of that fact, they could infer a sexual assault took place.

This is good.

WG - as I read it, they don't have to infer anything. Even better - no reasonable doubt.

Stripping someone of their clothes is a violent act in itself, in that it leaves you vulnerable and exposed. If the jury accepts that they stripped her before her death, then sexual assault is proved, regardless of whether it went further than that.

I'm hopeful this is a good sign.

Tink
05-11-2012, 06:14 PM
Your explanations have actually encouraged me!

It seems that if they rephrased the question to ask if it would be sexual assault by both if the child was kidnapped, that suggests they've accepted his participation in the kidnapping. One guilty verdict.

Then the judge's answer makes it clear that no matter which of them removed her clothes, both are guilty of sexual assault. Guilty on another count.

Surely after these two they'll have to go for guilty of murder as well.

I hope.

Tink

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 06:14 PM
There are 3 Trees:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93170323/Rafferty-Tree03

Oldsoul2
05-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Don't know why but I'm thinking Yes on the rape charge, Yes on the abduction charge but a lesser on 1st degree because they believe TLM did it or shall I say there's reasonable doubt we shall see...still gives him 25 years though and in maximum prison which is fine by me

elepher50
05-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Did anybody notice how Rafferty was holding his hands towards the end of the interview with the police after his arrest in this video on May 20, 2009? Around the 45 minute mark on the video.

Just passing time waiting for the guilty verdict on all charges.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/10/19743241.html

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 06:16 PM
Okay, now this is absolutely bizarre !!! One of my chores was to go outside to do poo patrol. People give me plastic bags as I go through a lot of them. I grabbed a bag to line the bucket (it is from a liquor store in Vancouver where i do not live). As i shook the bag to open it, what do i find in the bottom of the bag .... a purple balloon !!! I have never had a purple balloon in my house in my lifetime that I am aware of.

elepher50
05-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Okay, now this is absolutely bizarre !!! One of my chores was to go outside to do poo patrol. People give me plastic bags as I go through a lot of them. I grabbed a bag to line the bucket (it is from a liquor store in Vancouver where i do not live). As i shook the bag to open it, what do i find in the bottom of the bag .... a purple balloon !!! I have never had a purple balloon in my house in my lifetime that I am aware of.

Tis a sign sillybilly .. tis a sign and a good one!

elepher50
05-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Has anyone had a good look at the Decision Tree, to try and decipher where they are?

Yes, I have and I think they are headed down the aiding and abetting and headed towards the first degree murder charge ... just moo of course.

Wondergirl
05-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Anyway you look at those trees, whether it's Principal, Supplemental or Aider/Abettor, you always end up at Guilty if you agree he was part of the kidnapping.

Bye-Bye

sillybilly
05-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Tis a sign sillybilly .. tis a sign and a good one!

I hope so elepher. I'm a pretty steely old coot, and can usually steel myself against a lot of things. But earlier this afternoon, I said one of the biggest prayers of my life for the right verdict for Tori ... both the butterflies and balloon happened afterwards. I can't stop crying and I just feel overwhelmed.

Tahorn
05-11-2012, 06:25 PM
I wonder who was TLM told?

myzzy
05-11-2012, 06:29 PM
Well now that everything of MRs past is out of the closet I am going to come out as well. I am one of the victims of MR. I was one of the women on the stand. This is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. Reading all that stuff about him last night made me sick as I am sure it did everyone who read it. I at the time we dated had a little girl 3 years of age. I am so very thankful that neither of us were hurt in anyway. I pray for little Tori and hope to god for justice for her and her family. Through this I have become quite close with Tara. She is such a great lady. She has been amazing and I truly commend her for her strength.

My heart goes out to you, nothing i can say will ever take away the pain you must feel. My thoughts will will always be with you! Thank you!

I had to go downtown this afternoon and made a special stop for Tori right by the court house. I looked to the skys and asked that justice is brought to Tori and that MR is found guilty, grrr im crying again.. my heart is just torn up

Yody04
05-11-2012, 06:29 PM
I can look at all three trees over and over again and I always end at guilty of 1st degree murder. And that without the stuff we heard last evening.

swedie
05-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Don't know why but I'm thinking Yes on the rape charge, Yes on the abduction charge but a lesser on 1st degree because they believe TLM did it or shall I say there's reasonable doubt we shall see...still gives him 25 years though and in maximum prison which is fine by me

This is why Derstine wanted the 2nd degree and manslaughter charges added; he was hoping that if the jurors were having a hard time with the 1st degree, they could go with one of the lesser charges, so maybe that is what the jurors are dealing with, so hard to say. I still believe they should go with 1st as he was no innocent dupe, but the evil planner and Tori was killed while in their custody. Either deliberate or accidental death is 1st degree murder. AND by MR stopping at HD for TLM to purchase the murder weapon and MR giving her the money it's pretty clear he planned it. AND to add more salt to the wound, all the things TLM said MR said, "you know I'm going to F&^% her right?" and "we can't keep her and we can't take her back". To me that's huge and here's hoping the believe the majority of TLM's testimony. MOO

Bravo
05-11-2012, 06:31 PM
After 3 + years of following the Casey Anthony trial and knowing 100% she was guilty I am so nervous right now. I don't think I can handle another not guilty verdict... especially knowing what the jury DOESN'T!

Welcome. We are all crazy right now so jump in lol