View Full Version : FBI considering hate crime charges against Zimmerman #1
JBean
05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
SANFORD, Fla. —
WFTV has learned charges against George Zimmerman could be getting more serious.
State prosecutors said Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman, profiled and stalked 17-year-old Trayvon Martin (http://www.wftv.com/s/news/trayvonmartin/) before killing him, so the FBI is now looking into charging him with a hate crime.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
suspicious1
05-14-2012, 11:00 PM
And I think they should.....
I am one who believes and have believed since the beginning that GZ said 'coons' and not 'punks'.
Wouldn't the hate crime have something to do with that?
HiHater
05-14-2012, 11:03 PM
I am SOOOO happy to see this! I believe wholeheartedly that GZ said "co*ns" and not punks.
jjenny
05-14-2012, 11:59 PM
I don't see anything in that article to suggest that this is actually new information.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 12:15 AM
I don't see anything in that article to suggest that this is actually new information.
It isn't. The fact that it is month-and-a-half old news was discussed in another thread, with a link. I know I've commented on it a bunch of times in the context of the State not filing its own hate crime charges, even though Fla. has a statute, and using the word "punks" in the affidavit instead of the slur. Can't imagine why they decided to regurgitate it today.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 12:19 AM
I am SOOOO happy to see this! I believe wholeheartedly that GZ said "co*ns" and not punks.
The probable cause affidavit says punks. They will not by saying that the other word was said.
AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 12:34 AM
I doubt WFTV would simply run an old article again, with Bill Shaeffer making the comments again. Seems like something must be up with the Feds? Guess we shall see. If BS said these things today, something is coming up with the hate crime charges. He is pretty, spot on. IMO.
AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 12:40 AM
The probably cause affidavit says punks. They will not by saying that the other word was said.
The Feds run a complete, separate, investigation. They do not care what the State has in their affidavit. If they thought they heard the other word, that is what they will go with. They charge according to their investigation, has nothing to do with the State's investigation.
JMO
Karmady
05-15-2012, 12:43 AM
The Feds run a complete, separate, investigation. They do not care what the State has in their affidavit. If they thought they heard the other word, that is what they will go with. They charge according to their investigation, has nothing to do with the State's investigation.
JMO
My point is, the State wouldn't have locked themselves in to punks if there was any chance that the other word was said. No reason at all to do that.
Alecto
05-15-2012, 12:44 AM
I am SOOOO happy to see this! I believe wholeheartedly that GZ said "co*ns" and not punks.
It's always seemed weird to me that anyone would hear "co*ns" as the words aren't really close. The middle "un" section is especially clear and very different from an "oo" sound.
AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 12:46 AM
My point is, the State wouldn't have locked themselves in to punks if there was any chance that the other word was said. No reason at all to do that.
The State has no idea what the Feds have discovered, or what they will be doing in their case. Yes, the State could have "locked" themselves into the one word, it was early, they still wouldn't know today, if the Feds thought/proved the other word was actually said.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 12:54 AM
The State has no idea what the Feds have discovered, or what they will be doing in their case. Yes, the State could have "locked" themselves into the one word, it was early, they still wouldn't know today, if the Feds thought/proved the other word was actually said.
We can agree to disagree, but I would bet a million dollars that the PCA would not have said punks if there was ANY chance that a racial slur was used. It was an absolutely unnecessary allegation and they would, at a minimum, have left it out, for sure, it there was any reasonable doubt. I also believe that they knew what the Feds said about the word, particularly since Gilbreath testified about it at the bond hearing. jmo
AJ Noiter
05-15-2012, 12:56 AM
As a separate but equal point, isn't Mr. Owen or the other audio guy the one that determined that the word was "punks?" Wouldn't it be weird if he was a witness for the prosecution in the Florida vs Zimmerman case and a witness for the defense in a US vs Zimmerman case?
mommakk51
05-15-2012, 01:01 AM
Down there in Florida, the young black folks call themselves GOONS. I think that is a term related to sports, because the football and basketball teams use it. I found this out by looking through about 50 facebook profiles of graduates from Liberty City high school and Michael Krop high school.
I highly doubt the word used was coon, since GZ's GRANDFATHER was BLACK. If it was either goons or punks, then that was relatively mild compared to what most "vigilante types" would say. (MF'rs.)
JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO 'n stuff..
AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 01:03 AM
We can agree to disagree, but I would bet a million dollars that the PCA would not have said punks if there was ANY chance that a racial slur was used. It was an absolutely unnecessary allegation and they would, at a minimum, have left it out, for sure, it there was any reasonable doubt. I also believe that they knew what the Feds said about the word, particularly since Gilbreath testified about it at the bond hearing. jmo
The PCA was early on. The Feds haven't completed their investigation. Their experts "could have" heard it a little different. I didn't say for sure the Feds are saying, he said racial slur. Gilbreath has NO clue what the Feds are doing, in fact, he didn't say much at the bond hearing. lol.
I'm not saying the Feds think that words was said, just that the State is not privy to the Feds investigation. I am, in NO way, making any allegation.
I find it a little odd, the day the evidence is given to MOM, this article appears. :waitasec:
JMO
AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 01:05 AM
If hate charges are sought by the Feds, do they come after the State's trial? I think that is how it works, but I am too tired to look it up.
HiHater
05-15-2012, 01:11 AM
Down there in Florida, the young black folks call themselves GOONS. I think that is a term related to sports, because the football and basketball teams use it. I found this out by looking through about 50 facebook profiles of graduates from Liberty City high school and Michael Krop high school.
I highly doubt the word used was coon, since GZ's GRANDFATHER was BLACK. If it was either goons or punks, then that was relatively mild compared to what most "vigilante types" would say. (MF'rs.)
JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO 'n stuff..
It's not just the young black folks, and the word was made very popular by the rap artist Lil' Wayne. From what I know, it has nothing to do with sports, and more to do with street culture, or what may also be called "thug life."
JMO MOO
HiHater
05-15-2012, 01:14 AM
We can agree to disagree, but I would bet a million dollars that the PCA would not have said punks if there was ANY chance that a racial slur was used. It was an absolutely unnecessary allegation and they would, at a minimum, have left it out, for sure, it there was any reasonable doubt. I also believe that they knew what the Feds said about the word, particularly since Gilbreath testified about it at the bond hearing. jmo
How do we know what that statement in the PCA was based on? Perhaps they took Zimmerman's version? I don't think this locks the state into anything. Most of the time, PCAs are filed way earlier on and an investigation may continue, right? :moo::moo::twocents:
HiHater
05-15-2012, 01:16 AM
It's always seemed weird to me that anyone would hear "co*ns" as the words aren't really close. The middle "un" section is especially clear and very different from an "oo" sound.
I did not hear an "un" sound and even more importantly, I did not hear a "K" sound at the end. I don't know why it would be weird, though...
HiHater
05-15-2012, 01:18 AM
The probable cause affidavit says punks. They will not by saying that the other word was said.
BBM
I really don't think any of us can make this determination. :moo::twocents:
HiHater
05-15-2012, 01:18 AM
I don't see anything in that article to suggest that this is actually new information.
The date?
AJ Noiter
05-15-2012, 01:27 AM
I did not hear an "un" sound and even more importantly, I did not hear a "K" sound at the end. I don't know why it would be weird, though...
Here's the thing about audio recordings. First a little background, followed by a short story. For many years I did "paranormal investigating" where we would capture these pesky little things called "EVPs" or Electronic Voice Phenomena, where "voices" from "no where" were recorded. I was the skeptic and technician in my group, which is why I'm no longer with them - I was a bit too skeptical. I did some tests with my group one night. As we were "investigating" a cemetery I went off with my cousin and he made some strange nonsensical whispers into my audio recorder. Later that night when we were going over the "evidence" we would let someone else listen to what we got on our recorder. Ashley listened to my tape and she heard the word "boondoggle," which is an odd word in itself. When she heard it she told the other investigators "I just heard the word boondoggle, come listen!" and through the power of suggestion everyone else heard the word "boondoggle" except one person. That one other person did not hear the exclamation about the word because they were out of the room. When they heard it they thought the word was "froglegs." This was really odd considering it was a nonsensical whisper.
The moral of the story above is that if someone tells you "it's possibly the word goons" you're probably going to hear the word "goons." If you listen to it without a suggestion as to what it is you may come up with something completely different. When I first heard this 911 tape I thought it was a nonsensical word, maybe slang I hadn't heard before.
JBean
05-15-2012, 01:30 AM
I don't see anything in that article to suggest that this is actually new information.
Perhaps since it is being touted as breaking news all over-- I assumed ( and possibly erroneously) that originally the talk of hate crimes was just idle speculation; this sounds as though it is confirming the original suspicion and the FBI actually is looking at this in that light.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 01:30 AM
How do we know what that statement in the PCA was based on? Perhaps they took Zimmerman's version? I don't think this locks the state into anything. Most of the time, PCAs are filed way earlier on and an investigation may continue, right? :moo::moo::twocents:
Again, my point is if they thought that word was something other than punks, they wouldn't have said anything at all about it and just went with the other allegations, including "these a**holes." Why would they want to explain having alleged "punks" after all the uproar about c**ns, especially if they would have to explain why they changed there minds later. I'm 1000% convinced, but ymmv
vlpate
05-15-2012, 01:42 AM
It isn't. The fact that it is month-and-a-half old news was discussed in another thread, with a link. I know I've commented on it a bunch of times in the context of the State not filing its own hate crime charges, even though Fla. has a statute, and using the word "punks" in the affidavit instead of the slur. Can't imagine why they decided to regurgitate it today.
One line buried in an ABC article from today: "Zimmerman is also the subject of an FBI investigation into a possible hate crime committed against 17-year-old Martin."
ABC Link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-killing-george-zimmermans-lawyer-prosecution-evidence/story?id=16347145#.T7HsP7POVEI)
JBean
05-15-2012, 01:50 AM
The idea behind a forum as opposed to one general thread is to break out each topic into discussion. If those of you that don't find this newsworthy or otherwise aren't interested, don't discuss it-truly is that simple.
You can scroll by threads that are not of interest to you. That is a big part of the reason a forum is set up so one is not stuck in the middle of a conversation they find redundant or unimportant.
Sometimes topical threads overlap and it is hard to isolate a topic to one thread. But now that this topic has its own thread it doesn't have to be rehashed in other threads and that is how the forum evolves and forms.
You will find it helpful when searching for information in the future.It is particularly helpful during trial and hearings so we can easily find out what was said by whom without going through a hundred threads and bump old conversation.
if this had been a topical thread when it was originally discussed, we could have just bumped the discussion with this potentially new information and we could have just continued on with all our old posts in one place.
hth.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 02:35 AM
The word right from the horse's mouth. The FBI going door-to-door at twin lakes as of April 5th, focusing specifically on whether the shooting was racially motivated.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46966048/ns/msnbc_tv-politicsnation/t/politicsnation-monday-april/
I am VERY interested in the FBI investigation.
ETA: maybe as early as April 2nd, depending on whether you go by the date of the update.
Reader
05-15-2012, 02:38 AM
The idea behind a forum as opposed to one general thread is to break out each topic into discussion. If those of you that don't find this newsworthy or otherwise aren't interested, don't discuss it-truly is that simple.
You can scroll by threads that are not of interest to you. That is a big part of the reason a forum is set up so one is not stuck in the middle of a conversation they find redundant or unimportant.
Sometimes topical threads overlap and it is hard to isolate a topic to one thread. But now that this topic has its own thread it doesn't have to be rehashed in other threads and that is how the forum evolves and forms.
You will find it helpful when searching for information in the future.It is particularly helpful during trial and hearings so we can easily find out what was said by whom without going through a hundred threads and bump old conversation.
if this had been a topical thread when it was originally discussed, we could have just bumped the discussion with this potentially new information and we could have just continued on with all our old posts in one place.
hth.
Personally, I'm glad you opened the thread, JBean, as I think it is important to the case and needs to be separate from the state case, in the event GZ is charged with a hate crime.
Here is a link to the FBI Hate Crimes site that has a lot of good information:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes
FBI Jurisdiction
A hate crime is not a distinct federal offense. However, the federal government can and does investigate and prosecute crimes of bias as civil rights violations, which do fall under its jurisdiction. These efforts serve as a backstop for state and local authorities, which handle the vast majority of hate crime cases. A 1994 federal law also increased penalties for offenses proven to be hate crimes.
vlpate
05-15-2012, 02:52 AM
Personally, I'm glad you opened the thread, JBean, as I think it is important to the case and needs to be separate from the state case, in the event GZ is charged with a hate crime.
Here is a link to the FBI Hate Crimes site that has a lot of good information:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes
"A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties." Angel's Link to FBI Hate Crime Unit (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes)
That's a pretty high bar. I've seen nothing to demonstrate GZ hates the entire black race. In fact, just the opposite. Even the detective, Gilbreath, said he was profiling TM as a criminal.
I'm interested in this investigation as well!
mommakk51
05-15-2012, 03:25 AM
It's not just the young black folks, and the word was made very popular by the rap artist Lil' Wayne. From what I know, it has nothing to do with sports, and more to do with street culture, or what may also be called "thug life."
JMO MOO
Yes, you are right about that. I went back and did some more reading, and found that it was indeed about thug life. They even have a place they call gooncity. There's some real interesting videos on youtube about that area of Florida. Especially Carol City and Miami.
Not that I think Tray was involved in that. I think that both Tray and GZ were good guys, and that it was someone else trying to make them look bad. The waiting for the doc dumps is killin' me!
:moo::moo::moo:
Concerned Papa
05-15-2012, 03:57 AM
The word right from the horse's mouth. The FBI going door-to-door at twin lakes as of April 5th, focusing specifically on whether the shooting was racially motivated.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46966048/ns/msnbc_tv-politicsnation/t/politicsnation-monday-april/
I am VERY interested in the FBI investigation.
ETA: maybe as early as April 2nd, depending on whether you go by the date of the update.
If they go door to door, they will apparently hear one resident say this:
Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters.
They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year, Ibrahim Rashada said.
“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.
“I do have a weapon, but I don’t walk around the neighborhood with mine!”
Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.
“I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”
For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband’s rationale, dropped her head, and cried.
“That’s so sad,” she said. “I hope our child doesn’t have to go through that.”
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy
While others say this:
A 17-year-old African-American, Teontae Amie, who lives at the Retreat, recalled that Mr. Zimmerman once wrongly accused his friend of stealing a bike. “When you see him, you think automatically that he might try something,” said Teontae, who added that he kept his distance from the neighborhood watch coordinator.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy
I'm reasonably certain the FBI would have no difficulty in getting THIS guy to talk:
The Twin Lakes Retreat is ethnically mixed….. Taaffe said it had been nearly all white.
Taaffe sounded chagrined when he noted that the complex is now majority-minority.
Foreclosures forced owners to rent out to “low-lifes and gangsters,” said Frank Taaffe
“There were Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down,” Mr. Taaffe said.
He suspects Zimmerman....."reached his breaking point,” Taaffe said
“I think any time you use a weapon, there are certain anger issues working,” Taaffe said. “He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy
I don't know much about what it takes to qualify as a "hate" crime...
"A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties." Angel's Link to FBI Hate Crime Unit (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes)
That's a pretty high bar. I've seen nothing to demonstrate GZ hates the entire black race. In fact, just the opposite. Even the detective, Gilbreath, said he was profiling TM as a criminal.
I'm interested in this investigation as well!
I just know, if the FBI goes door to door, they're not always gonna "feel the love".
HiHater
05-15-2012, 04:00 AM
Again, my point is if they thought that word was something other than punks, they wouldn't have said anything at all about it and just went with the other allegations, including "these a**holes." Why would they want to explain having alleged "punks" after all the uproar about c**ns, especially if they would have to explain why they changed there minds later. I'm 1000% convinced, but ymmv
ymmv? LOL My mind sees yummy...
We can agree to disagree. I think the word may very well be c*ons, only time will tell!
HiHater
05-15-2012, 04:04 AM
"A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties." Angel's Link to FBI Hate Crime Unit (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes)
That's a pretty high bar. I've seen nothing to demonstrate GZ hates the entire black race. In fact, just the opposite. Even the detective, Gilbreath, said he was profiling TM as a criminal.
I'm interested in this investigation as well!
2 things...it says "in whole or in part." That's actually lowering the bar IMO.
Also, bias =/= hate.
Synonyms
2. predisposition, preconception, predilection, partiality, proclivity; bent, leaning. Bias, prejudice mean a strong inclination of the mind or a preconceived opinion about something or someone. A bias may be favorable or unfavorable: bias in favor of or against an idea. Prejudice implies a preformed judgment even more unreasoning than bias, and usually implies an unfavorable opinion: prejudice against a race. 9. predispose, bend, incline, dispose.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bias
:moo::twocents:
suzihawk
05-15-2012, 04:17 AM
If they go door to door, they will apparently hear one resident say this:
While others say this:
I'm reasonably certain the FBI would have no difficulty in getting THIS guy to talk:
I don't know much about what it takes to qualify as a "hate" crime...
I just know, if the FBI goes door to door, they're not always gonna "feel the love".
Then there's Frank Taaffe's own statement re: "if you plant corn, you get corn" where he says that Zimmerman was targeting young black males:
http://www.examiner.com/video/george-zimmerman-s-neighbor-says-8-prior-burglaries-were-by-young-black-males
cherishtoo
05-15-2012, 04:18 AM
"A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties." Angel's Link to FBI Hate Crime Unit (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes)
That's a pretty high bar. I've seen nothing to demonstrate GZ hates the entire black race. In fact, just the opposite. Even the detective, Gilbreath, said he was profiling TM as a criminal.
I'm interested in this investigation as well!
I agree, I think you're right... it would definitely be a high bar to prove that GZ hates an entire race.
But, what do I know? I'm just a regular mother who has raised 3 kids. I'm not even black. I'm just regular. But there is something about this case, that is just not regular enough for me to just let it go.
I'm not sure that GZ profiled just a race. I think he profiled "a race" + "an age" and even possibly "an attitude".
I can even understand that if GZ felt threatened, he might pull out his trusty gun, that he shouldn't have been carrying in the first place.
So then Treyvon see's this gun.
Me myself, I have never seen a gun pointed at me. But I can tell you, the moment that I do, that's when everything changes. You know what, azz-ole, I just suddenly decided to defend myself, I'd rather die defending myself, so even if you're going to shoot me, I'm going to bash your head against the concrete first.
Dr.Fessel
05-15-2012, 07:38 AM
Down there in Florida, the young black folks call themselves GOONS. I think that is a term related to sports, because the football and basketball teams use it. I found this out by looking through about 50 facebook profiles of graduates from Liberty City high school and Michael Krop high school.
I highly doubt the word used was coon, since GZ's GRANDFATHER was BLACK. If it was either goons or punks, then that was relatively mild compared to what most "vigilante types" would say. (MF'rs.)
JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO 'n stuff.. BBM
In that article it states that is his mothers grandfather so it would be George's Peruvian great-grandfather if the picture is real and if he really is black. Did George even know this guy or identify with him? Did he ever write about him, talk about him with friends?
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
In the meantime, a photograph recently surfaced which is said to show Zimmerman's mother in the arms of her grandfather, who is black.
LiveLaughLuv
05-15-2012, 09:37 AM
The U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI have opened an investigation into the "facts and circumstances" surrounding the killing of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teenager shot and killed last month by a neighborhood watch captain in an Orlando suburb.
The department will "conduct a thorough and independent review of all evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation," according to a statement late Monday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-case-justice-department_n_1366101.html
SANFORD, Fla. —
WFTV has learned charges against George Zimmerman could be getting more serious.
State prosecutors said Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman, profiled and stalked 17-year-old Trayvon Martin (http://www.wftv.com/s/news/trayvonmartin/) before killing him, so the FBI is now looking into charging him with a hate crime.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
Good.
The very essence of profiling IS racism. Zimmerman targeted TM because he was black, period. Shame on anyone who claims Zimmerman was "defending" himself.
AJ Noiter
05-15-2012, 02:35 PM
Good.
The very essence of profiling IS racism. Zimmerman targeted TM because he was black, period. Shame on anyone who claims Zimmerman was "defending" himself.
This URL disagrees with you: (Google: define: profiling)
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=profiling&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=0aGyT8CTAaLi2QX1-J3pCA&ved=0CGcQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=876ab73a83f9b48b&biw=1440&bih=747
Profiling may be race related, but it doesn't have to be.
LynnM
05-15-2012, 02:57 PM
BBM
In that article it states that is his mothers grandfather so it would be George's Peruvian great-grandfather if the picture is real and if he really is black. Did George even know this guy or identify with him? Did he ever write about him, talk about him with friends?
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
In the meantime, a photograph recently surfaced which is said to show Zimmerman's mother in the arms of her grandfather, who is black.
Having black relatives is no guarantee that a person is going to embrace diversity. It is entirely possible for someone to have black ancestry and hate blacks. There have been Jewish members of Nazi groups here in the U.S., something that you would think couldn't possibly happen - how could a man embrace a political movement that wants murder him? But it's happened and here's an example: Dan Burros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lovelymountains
05-15-2012, 05:04 PM
Good.
The very essence of profiling IS racism. Zimmerman targeted TM because he was black, period. Shame on anyone who claims Zimmerman was "defending" himself.
Alix I'm glad you said that "Zimmrman targeted TM because he was black."
I have thought that since I first heard of Martin's death but somehow didn't have the courage to come right out and say it. I truly do believe it.
As for people being ashamed to hold the belief that Zimmerman was defending himself, while I don't believe that, I think some really do and don't need to be ashamed of their honest belief.
I am from the south. I remember as a child seeing crosses being burned on people's lawns. Not only black people's lawns, but white, too. There were a group of vigilantes who took it upon themselves to do that. The fire engines would come, the neighbors would gather. I still shudder to think of those days. I think we all bring something from our past which shades how we feel about Zimmerman's actions. That does color my opinion of Zimmerman. I am as sure of his motives as I am that the sun will come up tomorrow. I've seen it many times. Not fair? Perhaps.
suzihawk
05-15-2012, 05:10 PM
Having black relatives is no guarantee that a person is going to embrace diversity. It is entirely possible for someone to have black ancestry and hate blacks. There have been Jewish members of Nazi groups here in the U.S., something that you would think couldn't possibly happen - how could a man embrace a political movement that wants murder him? But it's happened and here's an example: Dan Burros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Burros)
It's been long rumored that Hitler is biologically linked to the sub-human races he sought to exterminate. That his grandfather was Jewish.
In fact, DNA testing shows he may have descended from both Jews and Africans.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20014645-503543.html
Reader
05-15-2012, 06:20 PM
Report: Feds weigh hate crime charge in Trayvon Martin death
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/05/report-feds-weigh-hate-crime-charge-in-trayvon-martin-death/1?csp=ip
...........Update at 12:28 p.m. ET: USA TODAY's Kevin Johnson reports the Justice Department has been investigating all aspects of Trayvon's shooting since March -- from whether the Sanford police acted properly to whether hate crime charges should be brought against Zimmerman.
"The independent investigation remains ongoing, and we continue to provide support and resources to the local prosecution,'' Justice spokesman Wyn Hornbuckle said Tuesday.
More at link....
Reader
05-15-2012, 06:54 PM
Combating Hate Crimes (transcript and podcast)
http://www.fbi.gov/news/podcasts/inside/combating-hate-crimes.mp3/view
Excerpt:
Mr. Schiff: Hate crimes have been around a long time, and the FBI takes these horrific crimes seriously. Supervisory Special Agent Cynthia Deitle is the Acting Chief of the Civil Rights Unit in the FBI’s Criminal Investigative Division.
Ms. Deitle: “A hate crime under most state and federal statutes is a crime which is committed against a person or property and which is motivated in whole or in part by the perpetrators’ bias or animus against the victim’s race or religion or national origin or disability.”
Mr. Schiff: What kind of hate crimes are there? Do they get put into categories?
Ms. Deitle: “They do, and I think some of the states that have passed hate crime legislation are different than the federal statute. Probably the biggest difference that we have in the federal system is that our statute has a requirement that we need some type of force, some type of force or threat of force as part of the crime for the FBI to be able to investigate it. So for example, if you have an action which is forceful where somebody is trying to interfere or intimidate with the victims’ right to engage in a certain activity—like for example, trying to eat at a restaurant, trying to enter a movie theater—and that person is prohibited from doing so because of his race or religion or national origin, that could be considered a federal hate crime. So we’re a little bit more limited than a lot of the other state statutes which are similar.”
From this, I understand it does not have to be shown the perpetrator hates an entire race but just has a bias against the victim's race, etc. And the action is forceful to interfere with the victim's right to engage in an activity, such as walking down a street going home.
Karmady
05-15-2012, 07:15 PM
Combating Hate Crimes (transcript and podcast)
http://www.fbi.gov/news/podcasts/inside/combating-hate-crimes.mp3/view
Excerpt:
From this, I understand it does not have to be shown the perpetrator hates an entire race but just has a bias against the victim's race, etc. And the action is forceful to interfere with the victim's right to engage in an activity, such as walking down a street going home.
If the victim is black, then bias against the victim's race (the race of the victim) would be bias against the black race. If it were victim-specific, it would say bias against the victim...period. I honestly don't see how that sentence can possibly read in the manner you're suggesting.
Reader
05-16-2012, 03:07 AM
<modsnip>
I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?
I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
AJ Noiter
05-16-2012, 03:14 AM
I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?
I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
I don't see what the hate crime is in what you typed. The "and he was black" is similar to saying "oh, and he just happened to be black" - which does not make it a hate crime. For it to have been a hate crime Mr. Zimmerman must have done everything specifically because he was black. As we know from Mr. Zimmerman's 911 call, he was unsure of Mr. Martin's race initially. When the dispatcher asked he said "He looks black" then he confirmed it when Mr. Martin started walking toward his vehicle.
Chris_Texas
05-16-2012, 03:28 AM
911 tape or not, I highly doubt the FBI will go for a hate crimes charge on just that, or his profiling.
For what it's worth, despite all the negative things I have said about Zimmerman, I don't have any particular reason to believe that he was a racist. His fans and many of his defenders? No question. The police who were supposed to investigate? No question in my mind. But Zimmerman? Who knows.
Personally, as I have said from the beginning, after listening to the 9-11 call I believe Zimmerman was not the nobel watchmen some are making him out to be. I believe that virtually everything he described in the call was a lie. I believe he was setting up his alibi for the shoot, and that he fully intended to gun the kid down right there on the street -- only Trayvon ran before his justified shoot could happen. I believe he targetted Trayvon, not because he personally hates blacks, but because he believed that the Sanford police wouldn't bother to investigate a dead black kid. And, as it turns out, he was correct.
All that is just my opinion. However, it is not invented out of whole cloth. Zimmerman went through that call like a pilot checking off a pre-flight checklist. One thing after another, in a steady escalation of perceived threat.
He establishes the reasons for his suspicions
He states that Trayvon is on drugs
He states Trayvon is messed up, something is DEFINATELY wrong with him
He states Trayvon is looking at him
He states Trayvon is heading his way
He states Trayvon has his hands in his waistband
He states Trayvon has something in his hands and he doesn't know what it is!
He begs them to send help quickly
Then Trayvon runs. This guy, who George has painted as a menacing gangbanger with a weapon, RUNS. And George, who has been almost giddy with excitement is suddenly furious. Trayvon wrecked his plans. And George completely forgets the entire scenario he has just so carefully suggested to the police. He forgets that Trayvon is supposed to be a drugged up black teenage gangbanger with a weapon.
And I suspect that the video from the clubhouse is going to bear this out. I think it will show that Trayvon wasn't doing anything suspicious at all. I think we will see a kid going along minding his own business. Hopefully we will see when George decided to leave his vehicle and the path he actually took.
All my opinion of course.
Alecto
05-16-2012, 09:23 PM
<modsnip>
Hearing can be surprisingly subjective and everyone will mishear things sometimes, and it is hard to make out what he says exactly, but I honestly think if one were to do a research experiment with hundred people who knew nothing about the case after hearing the audio not one of them would say it was co*ns. Is there anyone who didn't already think GZ was guilty when they heard it?
AJ Noiter
05-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Hearing can be surprisingly subjective and everyone will mishear things sometimes, and it is hard to make out what he says exactly, but I honestly think if one were to do a research experiment with hundred people who knew nothing about the case after hearing the audio not one of them would say it was co*ns. Is there anyone who didn't already think GZ was guilty when they heard it?
I can vouch for this. My recollection of what it was is stated up-thread. When I listened to the 911 call I was just getting into the case and had no indication of guilt/innocence.
ynotdivein
05-16-2012, 10:05 PM
Whoa whoa whoa.
Slow down here.
This thread is about the FBI *considering* hate crime charges against GZ.
OK to post whether you think those charges have merit or would stick. (Or not.)
Not OK to post speculation or accusations about other WSers.
Got it?
Alecto
05-16-2012, 11:22 PM
I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?
I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.
1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.
2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.
3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.
4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.
5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.
6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.
7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)
8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."
I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.
When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.
AJ Noiter
05-16-2012, 11:51 PM
We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.
1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.
2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.
3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.
4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.
5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.
6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.
7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)
8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."
I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.
When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.
:goodpost:
HiHater
05-17-2012, 12:01 AM
We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.
1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.
2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.
3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.
4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.
5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.
6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.
7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)
8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."
I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.
When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.
So GZ is describing everything about Trayvon, even down to the fact that he was wearing a button on his shirt, but he leaves out the part about his vehicle being circled?
clarabelle
05-17-2012, 01:27 AM
Based on the information coming out specifically injuries and the timeline of who was where, I am starting to believe the DA does not have much of a case against GZ for manslaughter or a hate crime. I think the FBI looking into the hate crime possibility is to make sure all evidence is meticulously examined to ensure a thorough and just investigation.
iluvmua
05-17-2012, 08:50 AM
Based on the information coming out specifically injuries and the timeline of who was where, I am starting to believe the DA does not have much of a case against GZ for manslaughter or a hate crime. I think the FBI looking into the hate crime possibility is to make sure all evidence is meticulously examined to ensure a thorough and just investigation.
This is what I think too
Reader
05-17-2012, 04:04 PM
I don't agree....it seems there is an active investigation by the FBI to see if they can make a hate crime charge. Of course if they find additional information that will assist the state in court, I'm sure it will be shared with them also.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/05/report-feds-weigh-hate-crime-charge-in-trayvon-martin-death/1?csp=ip&AID=4992781&PID=4169795&SID=j2gqi65yjjzv
Zimmerman profiled and stalked Martin before shooting and killing him Feb. 26, state prosecutors have said, so the FBI is looking into charging Zimmerman with a hate crime, WFTV reports.
FBI representatives are interviewing residents of Zimmerman's neighorhood in Sanford, Fla., looking for evidence of a hate crime, according to WFTV.
AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 08:52 PM
I think it's pretty cut and dry. The FBI audio guys were NOT able to discern what Mr. Zimmerman said, as stated in the report that they gave Ms. Corey's team.
Reader
05-18-2012, 05:03 PM
I think it's pretty cut and dry. The FBI audio guys were NOT able to discern what Mr. Zimmerman said, as stated in the report that they gave Ms. Corey's team.
That audio is not the entire basis of a hate crime charge, tho....the FBI is talking to all the tenants at the complex about GZ's work as a watchman, his attitudes to all races/groups and all facets about this crime.
Elley Mae
05-18-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't agree....it seems there is an active investigation by the FBI to see if they can make a hate crime charge. Of course if they find additional information that will assist the state in court, I'm sure it will be shared with them also.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/05/report-feds-weigh-hate-crime-charge-in-trayvon-martin-death/1?csp=ip&AID=4992781&PID=4169795&SID=j2gqi65yjjzv
I wonder how long they have to make that decision/determination?
LambChop
05-18-2012, 05:43 PM
I wonder how long they have to make that decision/determination?
I think the FBI is like the IRS. Feels like they can wait forever and just when you think you are in the clear. They show up at your door..."greetings." They also don't share information well. jmo
Alecto
05-19-2012, 12:02 AM
So GZ is describing everything about Trayvon, even down to the fact that he was wearing a button on his shirt, but he leaves out the part about his vehicle being circled?
I had hoped the doc dump would help clarify this but I haven't see anything about GZ's statement(s) to the police so far. If TM circled the truck then GZ should have damn well mentioned it in his 2/26 police statement, but his non-emergency call wasn't intended to be a full incident report by him and shouldn't be treated that way by others. When a person calls the police and says someone is acting "suspicious" or there is "something wrong" the expectation is that one is initiating a process to get police attention where one can add more specific information later on if needed with a detailed statement. It's that statement, not the call that really counts.
I do still think it is important to try understand when the circling happened and I think we can do that with the available information. At 1:30 into his call GZ suddenly interrupts the dispatcher and says "how long till you get an officer here?" My theory is that moment was when GZ realized that TM was not walking past his car but actually had looped in front of it again, which freaked GZ out hence the interruption. He could have also said something like, "OMG, he is circling my car!" but I think in that moment he was just thinking he needed assistance ASAP. Then by the time the dispatcher had finished responding to him TM had completed the circle and kept walking so it didn't seem imperative to GZ that he report it at the time.
gator
05-19-2012, 09:33 AM
I had hoped the doc dump would help clarify this but I haven't see anything about GZ's statement(s) to the police so far. If TM circled the truck then GZ should have damn well mentioned it in his 2/26 police statement, but his non-emergency call wasn't intended to be a full incident report by him and shouldn't be treated that way by others. When a person calls the police and says someone is acting "suspicious" or there is "something wrong" the expectation is that one is initiating a process to get police attention where one can add more specific information later on if needed with a detailed statement. It's that statement, not the call that really counts.
I do still think it is important to try understand when the circling happened and I think we can do that with the available information. At 1:30 into his call GZ suddenly interrupts the dispatcher and says "how long till you get an officer here?" My theory is that moment was when GZ realized that TM was not walking past his car but actually had looped in front of it again, which freaked GZ out hence the interruption. He could have also said something like, "OMG, he is circling my car!" but I think in that moment he was just thinking he needed assistance ASAP. Then by the time the dispatcher had finished responding to him TM had completed the circle and kept walking so it didn't seem imperative to GZ that he report it at the time.
Logically, GZ would have reported the "circling" immediately if it were true, if for nothing else than to emphasize the urgency of the situation. That would have been the first thing he said on the 911 call about TM's behavior that could have been considered remotely threatening. JMO.
LynnM
05-19-2012, 09:42 AM
Logically, GZ would have reported the "circling" immediately if it were true, if for nothing else than to emphasize the urgency of the situation. That would have been the first thing he said on the 911 call about TM's behavior that could have been considered remotely threatening. JMO.
It doesn't seem credible to me that Zimmerman would not have told that detail to the dispatcher. I think that this is more of his after the fact embellishments, like Trayvon telling him he's going to die tonight and Trayvon, shot in the heart and the lung having time to say not once but twice "You got it. You got it."
Alecto
05-19-2012, 11:45 AM
Logically, GZ would have reported the "circling" immediately if it were true, if for nothing else than to emphasize the urgency of the situation. That would have been the first thing he said on the 911 call about TM's behavior that could have been considered remotely threatening. JMO.
People aren't always "logical" though.
It's also not true that it was the first thing GZ said about TM's behavior that "could have been considered remotely threatening." Anyone listening to that call should honestly be able to tell that TM approached GZ's vehicle in a way that seemed intimidating and that GZ felt threatened before the 1:30 mark. It's just many people and the MSM decided they knew what was really going on and decided GZ was really describing TM just innocently walking home, but that was never what GZ described at all.
Here is what's really illogical:
TM "rushing" to get home yet taking 45 minutes to go 0.8 miles.
TM running and walking fast to escape GZ but taking 6 minutes to go ~ 700 feet.
That's from TM'a girlfriend's narrative which superficially fits what people want to believe happened but doesn't make any sense looking at a map of the area compared with the times involved. TM wasn't just walking home and TM wasn't trying to escape GZ. The girlfriend is obviously lying. Considering that the next stage of the incident has TM beating GZ's head into the concrete while GZ screams for help for an extended period of time arguing that GZ was "profiling" and committed a "hate crime" without having any evidence of GZ starting the fight seems wildly inappropriate to me.
JBean
05-19-2012, 12:44 PM
If you had a post removed recently it was OT and has been moved to the Sound Off Forum. PLease continue on there,but be aware that the rules are quite different. Or you may start a new thread in the Political Pavilion.
Thanks.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 12:54 PM
So politicans can comment on this case but we cannot comment on the politicans doing so...or the effect that coul have on the trial. I mean no disrespect but these are the facts of this case. Numerous politicans have joyfully stepped into it.
How can we discuss federal charges without at least pondering the effect of those political "comments." The FBI is a government entity.
Is there a thread here where we can discuss the implications of political pressures on this case. AS the politicans have CAUSED this...not we posters?
jjenny
05-19-2012, 12:56 PM
So politicans can comment on this case but we cannot comment on the politicans doing so...or the effect that coul have on the trial. I mean no disrespect but these are the facts of this case. Numerous politicans have joyfully stepped into it.
Is there a thread here where we can discuss the implications of political pressures on this case. AS the politicans have CAUSED this...not we posters?
There is a thread in SOUND OFF about this case. We can discuss political pressures there.
JBean
05-19-2012, 12:57 PM
So politicans can comment on this case but we cannot comment on the politicans doing so...or the effect that coul have on the trial. I mean no disrespect but these are the facts of this case. Numerous politicans have joyfully stepped into it.
How can we discuss federal charges without at least pondering the effect of those political "comments." The FBI is a government entity.
Is there a thread here where we can discuss the implications of political pressures on this case. AS the politicans have CAUSED this...not we posters?
Yes in the sound off forum which is exactly why it was created.
JBean
05-19-2012, 12:59 PM
also for future questions:
Threadiquette- Questions about rules welcome here - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 01:03 PM
I hope, if there are charges, they are filed because the Law supports those filings. Reading Atty Dershowitz analysis of the thinness of the criminal case and his outrage that these charges were even filed...makes me concerned.
LynnM
05-19-2012, 01:05 PM
People aren't always "logical" though.
It's also not true that it was the first thing GZ said about TM's behavior that "could have been considered remotely threatening." Anyone listening to that call should honestly be able to tell that TM approached GZ's vehicle in a way that seemed intimidating and that GZ felt threatened before the 1:30 mark. It's just many people and the MSM decided they knew what was really going on and decided GZ was really describing TM just innocently walking home, but that was never what GZ described at all.
Here is what's really illogical:
TM "rushing" to get home yet taking 45 minutes to go 0.8 miles.
TM running and walking fast to escape GZ but taking 6 minutes to go ~ 700 feet.
That's from TM'a girlfriend's narrative which superficially fits what people want to believe happened but doesn't make any sense looking at a map of the area compared with the times involved. TM wasn't just walking home and TM wasn't trying to escape GZ. The girlfriend is obviously lying. Considering that the next stage of the incident has TM beating GZ's head into the concrete while GZ screams for help for an extended period of time arguing that GZ was "profiling" and committed a "hate crime" without having any evidence of GZ starting the fight seems wildly inappropriate to me.
I listened to that call and I did not conclude that TM approached the vehicle in a threatening manner. When I listened to the call I thought Zimmerman was making a big dramatic deal about nothing.
It is not obvious to me that the girlfriend is lying.
Teenagers dawdle, especially when they are talking on the phone to a girl and don't want others (like BG's son) to overhear them.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 01:09 PM
SANFORD, Fla. —
WFTV has learned charges against George Zimmerman could be getting more serious.
State prosecutors said Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman, profiled and stalked 17-year-old Trayvon Martin (http://www.wftv.com/s/news/trayvonmartin/) before killing him, so the FBI is now looking into charging him with a hate crime.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
State prosecuters have not PROVEN that GZ "stalked" and "profiled" TM, have they? So how does this support new charges?
Will the demographics of crime in that condo area that caused GZ to be concerned about a stranger-teenager in the area...be considered to ameliorate this "profiling" charge? Or are we to pretend that GZ had no , none, zip reason to...."watch" TM? That this was crime free utopia....and there was no commonaity at all among the majority of previous crimes?
Is that fair?
When does "watching" become "stalking?" Getting out of a car in your own neighborhood? After YOU call police?
JBean
05-19-2012, 01:59 PM
State prosecuters have not PROVEN that GZ "stalked" and "profiled" TM, have they? So how does this support new charges?
Will the demographics of crime in that condo area that caused GZ to be concerned about a stranger-teenager in the area...be considered to ameliorate this "profiling" charge? Or are we to pretend that GZ had no , none, zip reason to...."watch" TM? That this was crime free utopia....and there was no commonaity at all among the majority of previous crimes?
Is that fair?
When does "watching" become "stalking?" Getting out of a car in your own neighborhood? After YOU call police?
My personal opinion is that Zimmerman set this thing in motion. I do think he crossed the line from watching.
if Zimmerman called cops and stayed in his car as the average law abiding citizen might do-then the story has a different ending.
I am not of the mind that Zimmerman specifically profiled him in a racist sense, but defintely profiled him in terms of being a youth walking around seemingly without purpose. My kids were profiled all the time when they were teens simply because they were teens. It is a discrimination to be sure, but not motivated by racism in particular.
Ask yourself this. If I were walking around seemingly without purpose do you think Zimmerman would have had the same reaction? Assume I am doing everything that Trayvon was doing, visitor in the tract, hoodie, talking on the phone, everything the same.
Do you believe that Zimmerman would have behaved similarly? Remember, Trayvon was not committing a crime and was not engaging in any contact with Zimmerman prior to the entire episode.
I do not believe he would have, yet there are female criminals everywhere. If he is truly watching out for the neighborhood, and we know he reports a lot of activity, then he should report me for doing what Trayvon was doing-but in my heart of hearts I do not think that would have happened. If you cannot say he would have reacted the same-then you must agree there was some profiling involved and if there was profiling involved then one must figure out what kind of profiling it was. Enter the FBI-but unless they know more than we do- I don't see these charges going anywhere.
Think about the 7-11 clerk. He saw Trayvon moments before Zimmerman did-yet he did not seem to profile him as a thief when Trayvon came in the store with a hoodie on! Thisa is only my opinion and can only base it off the tape but,he didn't watch him with any intensity and even turned his back on him- completely unremarkable reaction. Yet 5 minutes later Zimmerman has him profiled as a burglar?What? Don't get that at all.
IMO, from what I know now I do not see enough proof that this was racially motivated and so proving any kind of hate crime charges is not on my personal radar.
But I do think Zimmerman has got to take responsibility for his part in making this happen. The notion that Zimmerman is not at fault in any way is not possible,imo. But there may not be a crime against behaving irresponsibly under the cloak of responsible citizen.
I feel completely comfortable and confidant in saying that Zimmerman set the wheels in motion for this to all go down in his own passive-aggressive way. I would bet that Zimmerman himself wishes he had handled this completely differently and stayed in the car or gone home.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 02:10 PM
Great post JBean...and I love a good debate.
Here is my issue with your premise. GZ was reacting to the crime statistics of previous incidents when he chose to watch TM closer than he might have watched you. To me, this is common sense and if the majority of incidents in that condo complex involved teenage Black males...it is THEIR fault that other innocent young men are watched with more suspicion...NOT the fault of residents trying to keep safe. This a a multi-racial neighborhood of people working and trying to live in peace. They have rights to try to protect themselves. If descriptions of numerous criminals are similar...unfortunately, a stranger of THAT description WILL BE watched. I have no problem with that logic. Do you? Should the neighbors have followed old Chinese men to make it "fair?"
I was once "profiled" because I was "dressed up" and looked like a group of people going door to door prosletyzing. TM WOULD NOT have been watched by that police officier. But he had reason based on factual data and observation to watch me.
Had the convenience store been plaqued by thefts and incidents with young teenage Black males? If not, and I do not think this was the case...of course, he had ZERO reason to worry about anyone who looked like TM. Unfortunately, any "profiling" done to TM was the result of the descriptions of perpetrators of previous crimes iN THAT CONDO COMPLEX. That makes "watching" TM sad but reasonable. If old blonde women have committed the majority of crime in my neighborhood...of course. I as a stranger, fitting that description...will be watched more closely. Why should that be a federal crime of "profiling?" It's a natural human reaction to factual statistics.
As for the hoodie....that was a media dust-up.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 02:30 PM
"profiling" occurs normally in all humans. On another thread a poster relates that many AA do not report things to police because of distrust. In essence they "profile" the police in their area...based on things other police have done.
We are composed of responses to our particular enviorment.
Dr.Fessel
05-19-2012, 02:38 PM
Great post JBean...and I love a good debate.
Here is my issue with your premise. GZ was reacting to the crime statistics of previous incidents when he chose to watch TM closer than he might have watched you. To me, this is common sense and if the majority of incidents in that condo complex involved teenage Black males...it is THEIR fault that other innocent young men are watched with more suspicion...NOT the fault of residents trying to keep safe. This a a multi-racial neighborhood of people working and trying to live in peace. They have rights to try to protect themselves. If descriptions of numerous criminals are similar...unfortunately, a stranger of THAT description WILL BE watched. I have no problem with that logic. Do you? Should the neighbors have followed old Chinese men to make it "fair?"
I was once "profiled" because I was "dressed up" and looked like a group of people going door to door prosletyzing. TM WOULD NOT have been watched by that police officier. But he had reason based on factual data and observation to watch me.
Had the convenience store been plaqued by thefts and incidents with young teenage Black males? If not, and I do not think this was the case...of course, he had ZERO reason to worry about anyone who looked like TM. Unfortunately, any "profiling" done to TM was the result of the descriptions of perpetrators of previous crimes iN THAT CONDO COMPLEX. That makes "watching" TM sad but reasonable. If old blonde women have committed the majority of crime in my neighborhood...of course. I as a stranger, fitting that description...will be watched more closely. Why should that be a federal crime of "profiling?" It's a natural human reaction to factual statistics.
As for the hoodie....that was a media dust-up.
BBM
Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
LambChop
05-19-2012, 02:45 PM
"profiling" occurs normally in all humans. On another thread a poster relates that many AA do not report things to police because of distrust. In essence they "profile" the police in their area...based on things other police have done.
We are composed of responses to our particular enviorment.
And we know that the FBI often profiles killers by evidence they get from the victims in order to catch them. jmo
JBean
05-19-2012, 02:45 PM
Great post JBean...and I love a good debate.
Here is my issue with your premise. GZ was reacting to the crime statistics of previous incidents when he chose to watch TM closer than he might have watched you. To me, this is common sense and if the majority of incidents in that condo complex involved teenage Black males...it is THEIR fault that other innocent young men are watched with more suspicion...NOT the fault of residents trying to keep safe. This a a multi-racial neighborhood of people working and trying to live in peace. They have rights to try to protect themselves. If descriptions of numerous criminals are similar...unfortunately, a stranger of THAT description WILL BE watched. I have no problem with that logic. Do you? Should the neighbors have followed old Chinese men to make it "fair?"
I was once "profiled" because I was "dressed up" and looked like a group of people going door to door prosletyzing. TM WOULD NOT have been watched by that police officier. But he had reason based on factual data and observation to watch me.
Had the convenience store been plaqued by thefts and incidents with young teenage Black males? If not, and I do not think this was the case...of course, he had ZERO reason to worry about anyone who looked like TM. Unfortunately, any "profiling" done to TM was the result of the descriptions of perpetrators of previous crimes. That makes "watching" TM sad but reasonable. If old blonde women have committed the majority of crime in my neighborhood...of course. I as a stranger, fitting that description...will be watched more closely. Why should that be a federal crime of "profiling?" It's a natural human reaction to factual statistics.
As for the hoodie....that was a media dust-up.
So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.
I have 2 questions for everyone.
Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.
My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 02:46 PM
BBM
Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.
The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?
LambChop
05-19-2012, 02:50 PM
BBM
Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
I think they did. Some of those calls were for suspects that "got" away but it's possible those young black men may have been staying with a resident at that time. It's hard to say for sure. jmo
Karmady
05-19-2012, 02:53 PM
BBM
Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
I don't know if they were arrested, but assuming they also were minors, they would have been home in time for dinner -- possibly even if they weren't minors. jmo
LambChop
05-19-2012, 02:53 PM
But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.
The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?
I believe the person who was breaking into the apartments actually lived there when the arrest was made and had been tied to other breakins. Was there any proof that they were coming in from outside? I would think you need a passcode to get your car/truck in and out of that community. Not going to steal much while you are on foot. jmo
LambChop
05-19-2012, 03:00 PM
So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.
I have 2 questions for everyone.
Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.
My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
1. No. Being honest. I know from being married to a police officer I would have advised GZ to stay in his car. Once it's called in it is a police matter and you jeopardize the safety of the police officer and innocent people by following someone who you believe is dangerous enough to call LE.
2. I do not think TM just attacked GZ. Honestly I think GZ was thinking this kid is up to no good and TM was thinking this guy is up to no good and it went out of control from there. I don't think GZ ever intended to kill TM, I think he wanted to detain TM until LE arrived and TM would have none of it.
JMO
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 03:00 PM
No, I don't believe he was "profiled" in any crimonal sense. I believed he was "watched"for good reason.
Yes, I would tell my son to do what GZ did. I really cannot understand where he did anything wrong...unless there is a witness that he threw the first punch. These two individuals should have been able to have exchaged wors without physical confrontation.
I think, according to the girlfriends testimony...that TM was at one point outside the place he was staying. He had an opportunity to go inside.
I think he was bored, peeved (for good reason) and he had a recent history of "problems." That is why he was THERE that night. Didn't his Mother say he was there so Dad could parent him after that third suspension in just months from his second school THAT YEAR? TM was a teenager, not a bad kid...but one with some issues . I think he did throw the first punch...and had GZ on the ground...and continued to pound GZ's head into the ground when he had a choice to also STOP. That is teenage hormones more than the drugs in his system.
But the presence of marijuana does have significance. An article today says the last suspension was for possessing amarijuana bag at school. To buy an illegal drug , one must do business with drug dealers. TM was breaking the law by buying from those profiting from illegal trade. His family would not want him having these associations. But...That is an insight into his teenage "risk-taking." So yes, I can see him risking a fight with this annoying guy who was watching him...instead of just...going inside.
Inn my heart of hearts, I think this was just a tragedy. NO one should have died. And no one needs to be persecuted by media, politicans, or Hate Groups ALLOWED to issue death rewards for MURDER.
And no one should be prosecuted for stopping their own savage beating...or watching someone who unfortunately fit the description of those most frequently committing crimes in that neighborhood.
LambChop
05-19-2012, 03:01 PM
I don't know if they were arrested, but assuming they also were minors, they would have been home in time for dinner -- possibly even if they weren't minors. jmo
I believe the one arrested who lived there had priors and was on probation. I think he went bye-bye. jmo
Dr.Fessel
05-19-2012, 03:01 PM
But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.
The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?
I think 3 black teenagers were arrested. Is there any evidence that the unsolved crimes were from blacks? This community was not under siege from outside black forces. It was under siege from a renegade NWC who's wrong criminal profiling led to the murder of a 17 yr old kid according to the state of Florida.
Watched maybe, got out of their car on a rainy night and followed with a loaded gun when it would have been just as easy and smarter to keep driving in his car to the end of the sidewalk and wait for the person and the police?
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 03:02 PM
I believe the person who was breaking into the apartments actually lived there when the arrest was made and had been tied to other breakins. Was there any proof that they were coming in from outside? I would think you need a passcode to get your car/truck in and out of that community. Not going to steal much while you are on foot. jmo
My daughter lived in a condo like this. The gate was a joke. And criminals DO walk in...break in...grab anything easy and run. People live in fear of suprizing them in the process.
LambChop
05-19-2012, 03:04 PM
TM's body was found 70 yards from the condo where he was staying. jmo
LambChop
05-19-2012, 03:05 PM
My daughter lived in a condo like this. The gate was a joke. And criminals DO walk in...break in...grab anything easy and run. People live in fear of suprizing them in the process.
I do too with no problems. If crime were a problem I'd have an alarm system installed rather than chasing people down. It would seem so much easier. jmo
Karmady
05-19-2012, 03:15 PM
I have seen that on media shows too.
I mentioned previously, I don't watch tv, and certainly not any show having to do with the juvenile justice system -- although it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is one.
JBean
05-19-2012, 03:17 PM
No, I don't believe he was "profiled" in any crimonal sense. I believed he was "watched"for good reason.
Yes, I would tell my son to do what GZ did. I really cannot understand where he did anything wrong...unless there is a witness that he threw the first punch. These two individuals should have been able to have exchaged wors without physical confrontation.
I think, according to the girlfriends testimony...that TM was at one point outside the place he was staying. He had an opportunity to go inside.
I think he was bored, peeved (for good reason) and he had a recent history of "problems." That is why he was THERE that night. Didn't his Mother say he was there so Dad could parent him after that third suspension in just months from his second school THAT YEAR? TM was a teenager, not a bad kid...but one with some issues . I think he did throw the first punch...and had GZ on the ground...and continued to pound GZ's head into the ground when he had a choice to also STOP. That is teenage hormones more than the drugs in his system.
But the presence of marijuana does have significance. An article today says the last suspension was for possessing amarijuana bag at school. To buy an illegal drug , one must do business with drug dealers. TM was breaking the law by buying from those profiting from illegal trade. His family would not want him having these associations. But...That is an insight into his teenage "risk-taking." So yes, I can see him risking a fight with this annoying guy who was watching him...instead of just...going inside.
Inn my heart of hearts, I think this was just a tragedy. NO one should have died. And no one needs to be persecuted by media, politicans, or Hate Groups ALLOWED to issue death rewards for MURDER.
And no one should be prosecuted for stopping their own savage beating...or watching someone who unfortunately fit the description of those most frequently committing crimes in that neighborhood.
Thanks for your honest answer. I don't follow most of the logic, but sincerely appreciate the post. Not implying I am right and you are wrong, just saying our thought processes are so far apart I cannot relate or identify with what you are saying in much of this.
Exception- I do completely agree with the tragedy part though!
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 03:17 PM
I do too with no problems. If crime were a problem I'd have an alarm system installed rather than chasing people down. It would seem so much easier. jmo
That assumes that people can afford the monitoring charges. This was not an affluent condo area. Why should they have to incur expense...this is tough times for many. This punishes those just trying to live decent lives.
This from another thread..the condo newletter:
"We have recently experienced an increased incidence of crime within thecommunity including three break-ins in the past month, which is why having residents committed to being members of the Neighborhood Watch and reporting suspicious activities is so important. We must send a message that we will not tolerate this in our community! "
THREE breakins in one MONTH! Where these all the 3 different Black teens you mention arrested? Is watchfulness after an outbreak like this so hard to understand? Is frustration so hard to undersstand? This did not occur in a vaccum.
Allusonz
05-19-2012, 04:27 PM
So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.
I have 2 questions for everyone.
Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.
My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
These are interesting questions so I asked my 2 early 20 year olds and 4 of their friends what they would of done and here is a summary of their answers.
TM ran so yes they would of got out of the vehicle and followed to see where he went. If he was afraid he would of gone straight home.
They as well had no problem believing that TM would hit GZ. As they pointed out to me it had recently happened to 2 of them as they walked through a parking lot on their way to the movies.
All 6 believe that TM ran because he had something to "hide" not out of fear and wondered if the SPD found anything "dropped" or "hidden" or did they even bother to look. They believe that TM came back to get whatever he had dropped or hid.
None of them felt it was racial. To them it was not about the colour of skin.
The one thing they had the greatest issue with was that not ONE person went to HELP as no one wanted to get "involved".
This is the result of my mini survey.
JBean
05-19-2012, 05:01 PM
These are interesting questions so I asked my 2 early 20 year olds and 4 of their friends what they would of done and here is a summary of their answers.
TM ran so yes they would of got out of the vehicle and followed to see where he went. If he was afraid he would of gone straight home.
snipped by jbean for response
Your answer is to a different question than the one I posed. Not what would your kids do- what would you advise them to do.
My point is that i would never advise any of my kids, friends, or personal acquaintences to arm themselves and follow people. No good is going to come from it. I would advise them to get involved responsibly, ie calling police etc., but not to intervene.
But if they choose to do so, then they need to accept the responsibility of what comes with it and what their actions add to a potentially volatile situation. Sort of like these stories you hear about store clerks that take it upon themselves to stop would be thieves and then are promptly fired for trying to "help".There is a reason for the protocol and if they want to go beyond then they have to understand they are adding a NEW dynamic to the situation that they alone are responsible for and it may escalate it to a point that no one wants. Case in point- Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman.
I thik have led us away from the topic at hand so if we can dovetail this back to FBI hate crime charges that would probably keep us all in good favor with the hard working moderators in this forum.
JMHO of course.
Alecto
05-19-2012, 05:04 PM
I listened to that call and I did not conclude that TM approached the vehicle in a threatening manner. When I listened to the call I thought Zimmerman was making a big dramatic deal about nothing.
How did you conclude it was "a big dramatic deal about nothing?"
If you were a police dispatcher and a caller initially described a "suspicious" person at a distance and then said "now he is staring at me" and then said, "he's coming to check me out", and "there's something wrong with him", and "I don't know what his deal is", and then interrupted you to say "how long till you get an officer here?" wouldn't that concern you?
IMO it would be grossly negligent to consider that big deal about nothing.
It is not obvious to me that the girlfriend is lying.
Teenagers dawdle, especially when they are talking on the phone to a girl and don't want others (like BG's son) to overhear them.
She said TM was "rushing" to get home, the opposite of dawdling.
The bigger issue is the chase she describes between TM and GZ as there is just no way to make sense of what she is stating if one looks at a map and the exact times involved. How does a running TM with a headstart not escape GZ? How is TM still discussing being pursued minutes later when his home was a twenty second run from where he started?
JBean
05-19-2012, 06:02 PM
I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:10 PM
I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor
The simple answer is the truth: were Black males the most frequent perpetrators? There were several crimes in one month. Three Black Males arrested. Was it truly unreasnable to be suspicious of Black male juveniles? The crime statistics for that condo area will tell the tale. One AA resident was reported stating that Black juveniles were the problem. If that is true...then his suspisions were well founded in reality.
We don't like to speak of this, I know. We do not like to offend each other by saying this. But we cannot make GZ bear the burden of this "racist" or "profiling" accusation without telling the truth about crime in that area. If sadly, a great perponderence of crime is the result of young Black males...GZ was being rational and practical to WATCH GZ.
If it was all White crime...or Whites a majority of the crime problem, then you have a point.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:20 PM
By the way, Sanford has a poor safety record for crimes...3 out of a possible 100. One is more likely to be a crime victim here than generally in the State of Fla. This spaks to me of the weariness of Sanford residents of all races trying to live unaccosted by crime. IMO this gives GZ even more reason to be out there WATCHING...trying to protect his multi-racial neighbors. He was not some White guy gunning for non-whites in a white gated community. He is a mixed race volunteer in a community that is plaqued by crime.
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/
sleonardelli
05-19-2012, 07:22 PM
I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor
And it doesn't say if those black males were arrested or GZ just believed them to be "suspicious".
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:27 PM
I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor
Iposted this response to that page here :
Someone from the SPD, Serino?, is shown twice to make statements about GZ having called 911, 4 times to report suspicious persons, who were all “black males.” Didn’t we hear at first that GZ had called 911 something like 40 times? yet the person picks out just 4 incidents, where the person was black? The dates listed by that person were 2 dates in Aug. 2011, one date in Oct. 2011, and one in Feb. 2012.
They then show the complex Newsletters from a few different months. There is a write up in the Sept. 2011 newsletter about the increase in break-in’s, and says that there were 3 break-in’s in the previous month. Wouldn’t that be in August, when GZ called in two times? Some people from the SPD were invited to come and speak at a meeting in late Sept., invited by GZ. There were about 25 people who attended that meeting. The police officer went back and forth with emails as to that meeting with GZ. He was obviously in contact with the SPD. He inquired about any arrest from one of the incidents. The officer said that they had fingerprint info, but couldn’t locate the perp.
Other’s in that community had identified some of the suspicious people as young black males. Didn’t a black female tell a reported that the 800 lb elephant in the room was that it was young black males that were the culprits?
Yet George Zimmerman was reported to the FBI as being a racist.
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:31 PM
This should come out at trial. The frequency of crime. The races of the suspects and perpetrators. The Defense may well do a racial analysis of crime in Sanford over the past year or two...if "profiling" is charged and a man's life is to be taken away and spent in prison. Let's look at ALL of the truth.
If crime statistics show GZ had little reason to be suspicious of a young Black male committing crime in that complex...then that will be a point for the prosecution. But if not, GZ acted in a reasonable manner.
Truth matters.
sleonardelli
05-19-2012, 07:32 PM
I don't necessarily think GZ is hard core racist like my older brother and father but I do think he sees race in deciding who's "suspicious".
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:39 PM
I don't necessarily think GZ is hard core racist like my older brother and father but I do think he sees race in deciding who's "suspicious".
That will depend on whether statistics show he had good reason to be suspicious. Again, if old blonde White Women are committing the majority of crimes in my neighborhood, people have good reason to be suspicious of me...or anyone in my demographic. You CANNOT in fairness separate the reality of crime statistics from GZ's perception of whom to "watch." That des not make him a racist...only a REALIST.
Statistics will answer that question.
suzihawk
05-19-2012, 08:25 PM
By the way, Sanford has a poor safety record for crimes...3 out of a possible 100. One is more likely to be a crime victim here than generally in the State of Fla. This spaks to me of the weariness of Sanford residents of all races trying to live unaccosted by crime. IMO this gives GZ even more reason to be out there WATCHING...trying to protect his multi-racial neighbors. He was not some White guy gunning for non-whites in a white gated community. He is a mixed race volunteer in a community that is plaqued by crime.
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/
Zimmerman didn't limit himself to just WATCHING. Therein lies the problem. IMO
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 08:36 PM
Here is a good article about what was happening in the neighborhood.
George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting
.....Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."...snipped
A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR
By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.
At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.
In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.
One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.
<modsnip>
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 08:38 PM
There is no evidence that he did anything but Watch...until he was under attack.
Alecto
05-19-2012, 11:03 PM
Zimmerman didn't limit himself to just WATCHING. Therein lies the problem. IMO
Zimmerman certainly got out of his truck to follow TM at one point but even when he did that there is no indication his intent was anything other then to watch. When GZ got of his vehicle there was probably a good deal more then 1oo feet separating them (look at the map and call timeline). GZ thought TM was running and TM had a really big head start and was likely a much faster runner. GZ never had a realistic chance of catching TM and it's just been unsubstantiated speculation that GZ even wanted to catch TM.
Plus, the location of the fight means it actually had to be TM confronting GZ. GZ's injuries and TM's lack of injuries not only support GZ's version of events they also identify GZ as the person screaming for help which is also validated by an eyewitness as well. GZ not only didn't commit a hate crime, it appears he didn't commit any crime at all.
stmarysmead
05-20-2012, 06:51 AM
Somehow, part of my new post became part of the old. I have trouble with this Ipadand posting.
But the answer to the charge of "profiling"...is in this article posted above. The story of that condo area under seige should be the reply to every charge that GZ had no "right" to watch TM...or that this was all about race. It was only about race...because the neighbors felt under seige from crime from young Black youth. We have been sensitized by PC not to "speak" of this....but NOW that it is criminalized "to profile"....it WILL be spoken of. We will have to hurt some feelings to prevent injustice.
GZ had good reason to watch TM. TM was "victimized" by the young men who created the crime in that area. Even if you make it a crime, you cannot keep people from seeing the REALITY of who is committing crimes. And all those who cry "profiling" on TV should have to answer....WHY IS IS NOT JUST A COMMON SENSE REACTION!?
From the article above:
.....Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."...snipped
TM had real and valid reasons for fearing Black teens wandering in that condo area. If we are going to criminalize "profiling" and take a man's life away in jail...then no one can demand by virtue of political correctness that we cannot discuss the crime wave and STATISTICS n that neighborhood.
It is more comfortable to debate if GZ beat himself up while shooting TM....but this is the heart of the case. "Profiling" is one of the most serious charges. Here is the REASON for the "profiling." And it has to do with reality, not hate.
stmarysmead
05-20-2012, 07:33 AM
I hope GZ lawyers tell any jury that the HATE CRIME in this case...was instead... "HATING CRIME"
I hope this article is read into evidence along with every last crime stat from Sanford. I hope prior residents who were victimized by these crimes are called to relate their fear.
Then we can talk about the CRIME of TM being watched for a few minutes.
suzihawk
05-20-2012, 08:14 AM
So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.
I have 2 questions for everyone.
Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.
My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
1. No. Being honest. I know from being married to a police officer I would have advised GZ to stay in his car. Once it's called in it is a police matter and you jeopardize the safety of the police officer and innocent people by following someone who you believe is dangerous enough to call LE.
2. I do not think TM just attacked GZ. Honestly I think GZ was thinking this kid is up to no good and TM was thinking this guy is up to no good and it went out of control from there. I don't think GZ ever intended to kill TM, I think he wanted to detain TM until LE arrived and TM would have none of it.
JMO
I agree with your answers, LambChop - with one small, but important, exception or clarification to what I've bolded above.
I don't think Zimmerman went out that evening with the intention to kill anyone. I believe that once Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and was getting his butt kicked in his effort to detain him, he FULLY intended to kill him. He wasn't going to allow another a$$hole to get away - not this time.
stmarysmead
05-20-2012, 08:24 AM
Is that a crime? To save your own life? To save yourself when you are "having your butt kicked?" Do you think a man being beaten, feeling the pain of being beaten HAS AS HIS FIRST THOUGHT...not to let his attacker "get away?"
I think his thought is to make the beating stop. Make the pain stop.
Why is the worst possible light always thrown on GZ? Because that is the only way to justify the charges. In a neighborhood where good people of all races were plaqued by crime from Black teens...GZ sees a Black teen he does not recognize in the neighborhood. Read the Stories! Black teens walking into a house, terrifying a woman and her Baby. Listen to the AA neighbor: Black teen crime is the Elephant in the living room.
But GZ may have the rest of his life taken away because he was watching a stranger to his "beseiged" neighborhood until the police came. "He got out of the car!" I APPLAUD HIM for caring that much.
Then , he is being beaten and he should just LET IT HAPPEN...that would have been "justice for Trayvon" to allow his head to be continually smashed into the concrete.
Did TM have a right to do that because he was annoyed?
TM wanted the watching to stop so he beat GZ. The injuries show that.
GZ wanted the beating to stop...pain will do that to you.
That is the genesis of this tragedy.
suzihawk
05-20-2012, 08:32 AM
Is that a crime? To save your own life? To save yourself when you are "having your butt kicked?" Do you think a man being beaten, feeling the pain of being beaten HAS AS HIS FIRST THOUGHT...not to let his attacker "get away?"
I think his thought is to make the beating stop. Make the pain stop.
Why is the worst possible light always thrown on GZ? Because that is the only way to justify the charges. In a neighborhood where good people of all races were plaqued by crime from Black teens...GZ sees a Black teen he does not recognize in the neighborhood. Read the Stories! Black teens walking into a house, terrifying a woman and her Baby. Listen to the AA neighbor: Black teen crime is the Elephant in the living room.
But GZ may have the rest of his life taken away because he was watching a stranger to his "beseiged" neighborhood until the police came. "He got out of the car!" I APPLAUD HIM for caring that much.
Then , he is being beaten and he should just LET IT HAPPEN...that would have been "justice for Trayvon" to allow his head to be continually smashed into the concrete.
Did TM have a right to do that because he was annoyed?
GZ wanted the beating to stop...pain will do that to you.
It is if he initiated the fight - and I believe he did. One can't go around initiating fights and then shoot their opponent because they're losing the fight they, themself, started. If that's the law, then the world is in a lot of trouble, IMO.
Since this is getting far afield of the topic at hand, I'll just leave it at that.
stmarysmead
05-20-2012, 08:39 AM
Is there evidence that he initiated the fight? There are no witnesses. The GF cannot say one way or the other. Since it is just speculation and GZ is PRESUMED INNOCENT by our constitution...we may think that but he MUST be found innocent. You cannot PRESUME without proof and send a man to jail for life.
The crime stats and events in that neighborhood make the profiling charge totally inappropriate.
Time to start asking for Justice For GZ. One can still grieve the tragedy of TM's passing. But it takes REAL evidence not emotion to scream MURDER. Every tragedy is not a MURDER.
That is if our courts are still about justice.
AJ Noiter
05-20-2012, 08:46 AM
<snip for brevity>
I have 2 questions for everyone.
Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.
My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
I'm going to answer your questions as someone who is around the age of Mr. Zimmerman as what I feel I would do is what I would teach my children.
1) I'm not sure where I would end my opinion but I think it would come down to those who oppose vs support gun laws if we look at the whole situation. Personally, I don't care if you punch me first or I punch you first (which probably wouldn't happen as I'm a very laid back person), if I get to the point to where I feel my life might be in danger I will use any means necessary to defend myself - and I support anyone who does use whatever force necessary to save their own life.
With the "ending" out of the way, ignoring it and focusing on everything else my initial thought is that I would probably do everything just as Mr. Zimmerman did, but given that I don't live in a community that has much of a crime rate (my neighborhood specifically) I can't say exactly what I would do. I'm not in the military anymore but if I were the obvious answer is "I would've done what he did and more" because I would've lived on base and anyone suspicious is an immediate danger, no matter the circumstances or who they are. By "and more" I mean, I would've done a thorough search for the suspicious person, which I do not believe Mr. Zimmerman did do.
2) With the hostility that teenagers have these days to -everyone- I wouldn't doubt it. I still get a creeped out feeling when I recall a show, I believe on NatGeo, that showed American teachers having to teach behind bullet proof glass because of the way kids act these days - it's ridiculous. I know that's an extreme, but even in places like where I'm at the drug usage is getting younger and younger along with violent acts towards teachers and others.
On Mr. Martin specifically, I do not have a very good idea of Mr. Martin to be able to say specifically about him. I would like to think that he was not easily provoked, but thus far I haven't seen anything to indicate that. I have not been one to talk about his past, his drug usage or how he was in a supposed "fight club" because I didn't see anything that showed he was a violent person (he was the "ref" in the video, not a participant). If you were to remove everything, and only give me the details from his facebook/twitter/etc and not tell me anything about this case I would probably estimate that he was good kid that has done some silly things in his life, but who hasn't.
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Pleae explain how the government can bring Hate Crime charges against GZ...if he had a statistical reason in the crime data for his community to "watch" TM. This is a key component to the hate charge: it must be RACE alone.
In the Crump sponsered visits that the Family is making, they say that Trayvon was targeted because he was "diferent." Statistics say he was watched because he was"similar" not differnt...from the criminals who were targeting that multi-racial area.
It is fantasy to ignore the real problems in that community and pretend this was just about race. If that Condo area had a Black Wach captain, he would probably have watched an unknown Black teen too...because THAT was the "elephant in the living room" in that neighborhood...as the AA resident in the Reuters article stated.
wishuwerehere
05-21-2012, 06:29 PM
Pleae explain how the government can bring Hate Crime charges against GZ...if he had a statistical reason in the crime data for his community to "watch" TM. This is a key component to the hate charge: it must be RACE alone.
In the Crump sponsered visits that the Family is making, they say that Trayvon was targeted because he was "diferent." Statistics say he was watched because he was"similar" not differnt...from the criminals who were targeting that multi-racial area.
It is fantasy to ignore the real problems in that community and pretend this was just about race. If that Condo area had a Black Wach captain, he would probably have watched an unknown Black teen too...because THAT was the "elephant in the living room" in that neighborhood...as the AA resident in the Reuters article stated.
Well, there’s the rub, Zimmerman didn’t just “watch” Trayvon. He followed him and confronted him with his presence. Check out the girlfriend’s testimony.
Also Zimmerman profiled Trayvon for being black and “suspicious.” (As if being black is suspicious = hate/discrimination). As a neighborhood watchman he was only supposed to observe and report. He did much more than that. He was not acting in good faith. His own paranoia got the best of him and it killed Trayvon.
jmo
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 06:37 PM
Well, there’s the rub, Zimmerman didn’t just “watch” Trayvon. He followed him and confronted him with his presence. Check out the girlfriend’s testimony.
Also Zimmerman profiled Trayvon for being black and “suspicious.” (As if being black is suspicious = hate/discrimination). As a neighborhood watchman he was only supposed to observe and report. He did much more than that. He was not acting in good faith. His own paranoia got the best of him and it killed Trayvon.
jmo
First, there is no evidence that he "confronted" him. The GF never said that. In fact she says that TM spoke first. She has no testimony about the fight. Second, unless you have proof that only RACE and not the crime statistics in that condo area were on GZ's mind...then "watch" is the appropriate word. "Profiling" assumes that ONLY RACE MATTERED. Unless you have a new definition of "profiling." Please share. And if the WAtch captain was Black and Watched Black teens because they were causing most of the crime problems...is THAT "profiling?" Someone please answer that
Secondly, the 911 tape where GZ is made to look like HE first mentioned race is bogus. An NBC producer losst is job over that Hoax. So that is untrue.
Another example of the fruit of the poisoned tree of media bias!
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 06:40 PM
Will soomeone who is claiming "profiling" please post the definition. And then explain how it fits this situation?
wishuwerehere
05-21-2012, 06:46 PM
First, there is no evidence that he "confronted" him. The GF never said that. In fact she says that TM spoke first. She has no testimony about the fight. Second, unless you have proof that only RACE and not the crime statistics in that condo area were on GZ's mind...then "watch" is the appropriate word. "Profiling" assumes that ONLY RACE MATTERED. Unless you have a new definition of "profiling." Please share. And if the WAtch captain was Black and Watched Black teens because they were causing most of the crime problems...is THAT "profiling?" Someone please answer that
Secondly, the 911 tape where GZ is made to look like HE first mentioned race is bogus. An NBC producer losst is job over that Hoax. So that is untrue.
Another example of the fruit of the poisoned tree of media bias!
BBM - Untrue. Zimmerman confronted Trayvon with his presence, which I stated in my previous post. This is substantiated by the girlfriend's testimony. People have been known to confront/intimidate others without saying a word. KWIM?
And Zimmerman does state that Trayvon is black and in his late teens on the 911 tape. I believe Zimmerman wanted to intimidate Trayvon based on him being black and young. Travyon stood his ground and Zimmerman killed him for it.
It is what it is. Can it be proven in a court of law? Well, if they use Zimmerman's past calls to the police over the years, they may have a tighter case. I'm not sure if that will be let in. But those calls definitely paint a picture of Zimmerman, and it's not pretty.
jmo
Emeralgem
05-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Will soomeone who is claiming "profiling" please post the definition. And then explain how it fits this situation?
pro·fil·ing /ˈproʊfaɪlɪŋ/ Show Spelled[proh-fahy-ling] Show IPA
noun
the use of specific characteristics, as race or age, to make generalizations about a person, as whether he or she may be engaged in illegal activity.
I say the above definition pretty much describes exactly what GZ was doing that night... IMHO..It fits the situation to a "T"..JMHO
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 06:57 PM
How do you "confront someone with your presence?" GZ was a resident of that condo...he had EVERY right to be anywhere. Incluing in or out o his car. He disregarded advice NOT any LAW.
GZ had a right to be anywhere. Actually so did TM...though he was just a visitor. No one made any illegal "confronttion."
GZ was asked for a description by police. He did not offer it. Was he to tell them TM was purple and 65 years old. He answered truthfully.
In fact, TM began the verbal confrontation according to his GF. "why are you followng me?"
ALL of us have a right to ask anyone in our neighborhood...after those words...to answer back. GZ "confronted NO ONE.
"If they use GZ's past calls to the police" and it is proven that young Black teens WERE the problem in that condo area...it PROVES NOTHING about race...only that GZ was doing a good job as WATCH CAPTAIN...being a good neighbor...and giving accurate descriptions.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 06:58 PM
<snip for relevance>
It is what it is. Can it be proven in a court of law? Well, if they use Zimmerman's past calls to the police over the years, they may have a tighter case. I'm not sure if that will be let in. But those calls definitely paint a picture of Zimmerman, and it's not pretty.
jmo
4 divided by 46 equals .086956. Are you really trying to insinuate that less than 10% of his calls that were regarding black individuals somehow paints a picture that he was racist?
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:01 PM
pro·fil·ing /ˈproʊfaɪlɪŋ/ Show Spelled[proh-fahy-ling] Show IPA
noun
the use of specific characteristics, as race or age, to make generalizations about a person, as whether he or she may be engaged in illegal activity.
I say the above definition pretty much describes exactly what GZ was doing that night... IMHO..It fits the situation to a "T"..JMHO
So GZ was to ignore the reality of the crime statistics in his neighborhood? If the majority of crimes were by Black teens, he has a legit reason to wonder if an unknown Black teen might be engaged in illegal activity.
Is he supposed to be worryng about Chinese women? <modsnip> THE REALITY OF JUST WHO THE CRIMINALS WERE makes a huge difference.
It's not a "genealization"if it has statistic credibilty.
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:02 PM
4 divided by 46 equals .086956. Are you really trying to insinuate that less than 10% of his calls that were regarding black individuals somehow paints a picture that he was racist?
bingo!
wishuwerehere
05-21-2012, 07:02 PM
4 divided by 46 equals .086956. Are you really trying to insinuate that less than 10% of his calls that were regarding black individuals somehow paints a picture that he was racist?
Perception is reality. Just ask Zimmerman.
The past calls show Zimmerman has a propensity to profile. Therefore, the past shoulders today's hate crime investigation.
jmo
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:10 PM
Perception is reality. Just ask Zimmerman.
The past calls show Zimmerman has a propensity to profile. Therefore, the past shoulders today's hate crime investigation.
jmo
The past shows nothing of the sort. The statistics prove otherwise and statistics have no allegiance to race or ethnicity.
The man is no racist. If Black teens were causing problems as numerous neighbors stated...then it is NOT profiling to be concerned about Black teens.
Are you saying that profiling now is so widely definined that a neighborhood that has a high incidence of Black teen crime is FORBIDDEN to even worry about unknown Black teens...or that is now some crime? How can you force people to deny reality?
Maybe the answer is to look to solve the crime problem not persecute those who have to live with it!
wishuwerehere
05-21-2012, 07:17 PM
The past shows nothing of the sort. The statistics prove otherwise and statistics have no allegiance to race or ethnicity.
The man is no racist. If Black teens were causing problems as numerous neighbors stated...then it is NOT profiling to be concerned about Black teens.
Are you saying that profiling now is so widely definined that a neighborhood that has a high incidence of Black teen crime is FORBIDDEN to even worry about unknown Black teens...or that is now some crime? How can you force people to deny reality?
Maybe the answer is to look to solve the crime problem not persecute those who have to live with it!
The reality of the situation is/was Trayvon Martin was not engaged in criminal activity that night. Zimmerman was wrong. Trayvon is the one who stood his ground and was killed for it. Zimmerman has been correctly charged and a hate crime investigation is warranted in IMO. At the very least, let's not let this situation ever happen again. Agreed?
jmo
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:24 PM
Questions about profiling:
1. If GZ were Black , would his same actions toward TM be considered "profiling?"
2. If not, does each Neighborhood Watch need to do a statistical survey and choose someone of the same race/ethnicity of the most frequent criminals, to avoid legal problems or Federal Charges?
3. In my area, where White teens are the problem, could a Black Watch Captain face legal problems for "profiling" an unknown White teen in the neighborhood?
4. If the majority of crime is from one race or ethnicity, how do we program residents NOT to be concerned about unknown persons of the race/ethnicity? This is a serious question. If Whites ae vandalizing a Black neighborhood, should we expect those Good People to UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES...have any negative thought or extra WATCHFULNESS against an unknown white person?
5. Is answering a question "why are you following me?" with a question "what are you doing here?" Profiling? or illegal confrontation? So GZ was NOT to reply to TM. Is that what the law is?
There are posts here about why people do not trust police...is THAT profiling? Can we force people to stop that kind of thinking too?
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:27 PM
The reality of the situation is/was Trayvon Martin was not engaged in criminal activity that night. Zimmerman was wrong. Trayvon is the one who stood his ground and was killed for it. Zimmerman has been correctly charged and a hate crime investigation is warranted in IMO. At the very least, let's not let this situation ever happen again. Agreed?
jmo
But, GZ COULD NOT KNOW THAT. Black teens were a criminal problem. He was watching him because of previous CRIMINAL incidents. It is the FAULT of those thugs that TM was watched, not one of the crime victims. And GZ was among those with his property stolen.
That crime problem is at the root of this. No one wants to talk about it, but it is.
As long as their is rampant crime, people will fear whomever fits the demographic of the perpetrators. Sadly, innocent TM did.
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 07:30 PM
i have yet to hear one person explain WHY..in a neighborhood with rampant lack teen crime...it was illogical for a unknown Black teen to be watched by someone volunteering to help stop that crime?
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 07:41 PM
i have yet to hear one person explain WHY..in a neighborhood with rampant lack teen crime...it was illogical for a unknown Black teen to be watched by someone volunteering to help stop that crime?
I am waiting for you to post those statistics. A breakdown of different crimes committed by blacks, whites, and Hispanic, in Retreat View. Start with homicides, we know one was committed by George.
wishuwerehere
05-21-2012, 07:45 PM
But, GZ COULD NOT KNOW THAT. Black teens were a criminal problem. He was watching him because of previous CRIMINAL incidents. It is the FAULT of those thugs that TM was watched, not one of the crime victims. And GZ was among those with his property stolen.
That crime problem is at the root of this. No one wants to talk about it, but it is.
As long as their is rampant crime, people will fear whomever fits the demographic of the perpetrators. Sadly, innocent TM did.
BBM - Not ALL black teens were a criminal problem.
Zimmerman erred in judgment big time. He profiled Trayvon. That's why there is a hate crime investigation.
And once again, Zimmerman didn't just watch. If that were the case, Trayvon wouldn't be dead.
jmo
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 08:02 PM
I am waiting for you to post those statistics. A breakdown of different crimes committed by blacks, whites, and Hispanic, in Retreat View. Start with homicides, we know one was committed by George.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
Reuters claims it did an extensive investigation "including court documents and police reports." They quote an AA neighbor as saying the "elephant in the living room was BLACK teen crime." It provide some good examples.
Statitistics like this make the profiling charge bogus.
But again, if GZ were Black, would the same actions be "profiling TM?"
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 08:05 PM
OF COURSE, not all! Of course not. And TM was troubled at the moent, but a good kid. And would have grown up to be a fine young man if his Mom is any indicator.
But the word "profiling" doesn't fit no matter how much you say it. Not if Black teens were a neighborhood problem. It is those kids that caused TM to be watched. We cannot close our eyes to the reality of where we live.
txsvicki
05-21-2012, 08:06 PM
It just absolutely astounds me that many people are so ready to give up their freedoms to live in some controlled environment where armed 'volunteers' roam about 'watching'! How on earth can it be normal to have citizens followed and stalked just because one person, on his own, decides they look 'suspicious'. Then when one takes up for himself , Stands His Ground, and demands to quit being followed, gets blown away, yet he's in the wrong! Where does it end? Can a man follow and 'watch' women, children, their visitors, the mailman? Also, I really question the news report on the previous page that states houses in that neighborhood were cased and the attempted breakins. How do they know houses were being cased? How do they really know who was doing it? Some psychopaths love to be heroes and this case reminds me of a conversation I had the other day with a gun enthusiast who lives near me. He said that he shot up his former home when a guy got in and tried to rob him. His feeling was that crime in that neighborhood really dropped for awhile after he did that. Perhaps mr. z had some of the same thoughts, and wanted to be the hero. If one person was shot, big deal. Crime would drop, and I'll bet it has there even though Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, and was not on or near the volunteer's home trying to break in. Those supposed so high crime statistics might be the same in just about any neighborhood where thieves believe people have electronics to steal. In a mixed race neighborhood, how on earth can ANY black people be considered suspicous while walking around just because a few black people did a few crimes? It's insane.
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 08:07 PM
i have yet to hear one person explain WHY..in a neighborhood with rampant lack teen crime...it was illogical for a unknown Black teen to be watched by someone volunteering to help stop that crime?
I guess this is the Elephant in OUR Living Room. LOL!
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:08 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
Reuters claims it did an extensive investigation "including court documents and police reports." They quote an AA neighbor as saying the "elephant in the living room was BLACK teen crime." It provide some good examples.
Statitistics like this make the profiling charge bogus.
But again, if GZ were Black, would the same actions be "profiling TM?" That is just an article. I asked for all the crime statistics at Retreat View broken down by crime type and the race of those who committed them. You claim he was right in what he was doing because of the statistics and the FBI has no case. You claim black thugs are committing all the crimes there.
LambChop
05-21-2012, 08:10 PM
The past shows nothing of the sort. The statistics prove otherwise and statistics have no allegiance to race or ethnicity.
The man is no racist. If Black teens were causing problems as numerous neighbors stated...then it is NOT profiling to be concerned about Black teens.
Are you saying that profiling now is so widely definined that a neighborhood that has a high incidence of Black teen crime is FORBIDDEN to even worry about unknown Black teens...or that is now some crime? How can you force people to deny reality?
Maybe the answer is to look to solve the crime problem not persecute those who have to live with it!
I believe all GZ was asked to do was call it in. Here is a description and I had to use racial because the other definitions were for industry.
Racial profiling refers to the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest). The practice is controversial and is illegal in some nations.
Racial profiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is what it is. Whether we like it or not when we decide to take the law into our own hands we take a chance on it backfiring big time. TM was not a criminal looking to break into a home. There was no evidence to prove he was going anywhere but home. GZ was out of line following. I have NEVER heard of a law that give a private citizen the right to track down an innocent person just because they "think" he might be up to no good. We all have personal freedoms to walk about but I have never heard of a law that encourages people to take the law into their own hands. He called LE, they were on there way, his job was done, finished. It was now a police matter.
I don't think GZ did it out of hate. I think GZ has some issues with control and when you have control issues you feel no one, no one can do the job better than you. But GZ was an adult and certainly from his past issues should have known better. I know posters will say that was 7 years ago. When you have an obsession that is hard to control it's only a matter of time when that obsession gets out of control. I think GZ wants to live in a perfect world and that requires control and he was on the path to do whatever it took to get that control. FT as much as said so in his many interviews. jmo
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:12 PM
I guess this is the Elephant in OUR Living Room. LOL!
Is it Pink?
annalia
05-21-2012, 08:14 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
Reuters claims it did an extensive investigation "including court documents and police reports." They quote an AA neighbor as saying the "elephant in the living room was BLACK teen crime." It provide some good examples.
Statitistics like this make the profiling charge bogus.
But again, if GZ were Black, would the same actions be "profiling TM?"
A media article, that's interesting seeing how the media is bashed all the time.
And if we're talking statistics, that media article that keeps being used as proof states that there were, 8 burglaries in 14 months, and "several" of them were committed by black kids? How many does that make in 14 months, 2? 3?
Several, not most, not majority and most certainly not rampant crime committed by black kids. So according to that article it certainly doesn't make the profiling charge bogus at all.
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:15 PM
A media article, that's interesting seeing how the media is bashed all the time.
And if we're talking statistics, that media article that keeps being used as proof states that there were, 8 burglaries in 14 months, and "several" of them were committed by black kids?
Several, not most, not majority and most certainly not rampant crime committed by black kids.
I think they caught all those kids.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:16 PM
<snip for relevance>
I have NEVER heard of a law that give a private citizen the right to track down an innocent person just because they "think" he might be up to no good. We all have personal freedoms to walk about but I have never heard of a law that encourages people to take the law into their own hands.
Citizen's Arrest would be one. Bounty Hunters do it all the time, in fact, that IS their job.
LambChop
05-21-2012, 08:17 PM
I guess this is the Elephant in OUR Living Room. LOL!
Because he did not watch, he pursued. It was the pursuit that got TM killed. Watching would have been safe for everyone. Watching is all LE asked him to do. GZ saw no crime being committed. TM was not doing anything wrong. His job was done. It should have been the end of the story. There's your elephant and it's not in our living room. jmo
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:19 PM
Because he did not watch, he pursued. It was the pursuit that got TM killed. Watching would have been safe for everyone. Watching is all LE asked him to do. GZ saw no crime being committed. TM was not doing anything wrong. His job was done. It should have been the end of the story. There's your elephant and it's not in our living room. jmo
I still find it hard to believe that following someone, no matter the speed, is what people are claiming to be what killed Mr. Martin. You would think there would be a law against following someone the way some people try to spin it to be an illegal act.
annalia
05-21-2012, 08:20 PM
The true facts are that the neighborhood was not under siege by black kids. 8 burglaries in 14-15 months, not all, not even known that the majority, were by black kids.
And even if there were some black kids who had committed burglaries, Trayvon wasn't one of them. No matter what inflammatory words one chooses to use to try to make it ok, the bottom line is that, no, GZ did not have the right to conclude that Trayvon was one of them based on what he looked like and go after him with a loaded weapon.
GZ most certainly had the right to be suspicious and to call police, that's where it ended. He was neither LE or trained security, he was a nobody with no authority except for a title. There is no evidence that Trayvon was doing anything suspicious or illegal that night, nothing criminal, other than what he happened to look like.
Under the law, Trayvon's rights were equal to GZ's that night, not less than but equal to. Trayvon had the right to walk home, he had the right to be in that complex because he was an invited guest of a resident, who was just as important a resident as GZ. Even kids who might happen to look like some who had committed crimes have the same rights to self defense and SYG, even if someone decides to profile them as one of "those" criminals.
The case is far from a slam dunk for the defense, there's still lots of evidence yet to be seen. Nothing proves that Trayvon attacked GZ first.
And crime is all over not just there, what a world it would be if we all decided to just appoint ourselves as an unlicensed, untrained watchperson and just go after and gun down anyone we might "think" doesn't "look" right.
JMHO
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:21 PM
Citizen's Arrest would be one. Bounty Hunters do it all the time, in fact, that IS their job. You can not Citizens Arrest someone because you think they might be up to no good and Bounty Hunters do not do that.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:27 PM
You can not Citizens Arrest someone because you think they might be up to no good and Bounty Hunters do not do that.
The context of the quote in your statement shows that I was replying to someone stating they had never heard of a law where citizen's take the law into their own hands. Are you stating that a "citizen's arrest" is not exactly that?
LambChop
05-21-2012, 08:27 PM
Citizen's Arrest would be one. Bounty Hunters do it all the time, in fact, that IS their job.
Aaaahhhh, for what???? There was no crime. Even LE could not have arrested TM. They could have asked him his name and where he lived and escorted him home to verify. That's it and I doubt they would have done that. What did he do wrong? Even on the phone with dispatch GZ is not describing anything TM is doing that is wrong. His clothes, his race, the bag with the beverage in his hand that GZ thought was suspicious (as if GZ could not see that bag). He's starting at TM giving LE a description of him then complains, "He staring at me." Well, hello, yes and what do you think he thought you were doing to him????
Bounty Hunters track down criminals who have skipped on their bail, please. Their job is skip trace not innocent citizens walking down the street. jmo
stmarysmead
05-21-2012, 08:28 PM
I have to take a break and call my AA neighbor and tell him to stop "profiling " white kids. Somebody might have him arrested.LOL!
Oh .there are three pink faces, tatooed arms, baggy pants...LOOK AWAY, LOOK AWAY!
Follow Grandma Wu intead. You must suspect HER in equal portion.(though I doubt she could climb in a window)
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:30 PM
Aaaahhhh, for what???? There was no crime. Even LE could not have arrested TM. They could have asked him his name and where he lived and escorted him home to verify. That's it and I doubt they would have done that. What did he do wrong? Even on the phone with dispatch GZ is not describing anything TM is doing that is wrong. His clothes, his race, the bag with the beverage in his hand that GZ thought was suspicious (as if GZ could not see that bag). He's starting at TM giving LE a description of him then complains, "He staring at me." Well, hello, yes and what do you think he thought you were doing to him????
Bounty Hunters track down criminals who have skipped on their bail, please. Their job is skip trace not innocent citizens walking down the street. jmo
As I stated in my other reply. Read the context of the quoted statement.
Also, how do you think they make arrests? They are not law enforcement officers. It IS citizen's arrest, which again, is in context to the quoted statement.
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:40 PM
As I stated in my other reply. Read the context of the quoted statement.
Also, how do you think they make arrests? They are not law enforcement officers. It IS citizen's arrest, which again, is in context to the quoted statement.
What you are trying to say is George could have got out of his truck when he said Trayvon was acting suspicious and up to no good and made a citizens arrest. He would have been thrown in jail for that.
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Citizen's Arrest would be one. Bounty Hunters do it all the time, in fact, that IS their job.
Yeah but "Dog the Bounty Hunter" only uses mace... He's my idol.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:41 PM
What you are trying to say is George could have got out of his truck when he said Trayvon was acting suspicious and up to no good and made a citizens arrest. He would have been thrown in jail for that.
No. What I stated is 100% clear. The original post which I quoted had LambChop saying he/she had NEVER heard of a law where people took the law into their own hands. I replied to THAT STATEMENT SPECIFICALLY and cropped everything else out. In conclusion, no matter how you try to spin it to bring Mr. Zimmerman in, it is IRRELEVANT to what I stated and the context of what was stated/quoted.
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:42 PM
As I stated in my other reply. Read the context of the quoted statement.
Also, how do you think they make arrests? They are not law enforcement officers. It IS citizen's arrest, which again, is in context to the quoted statement.
Bounty hunters do not make citizens arrest just because they think a person is up to no good. They are operating off of a warrant.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:45 PM
Bounty hunters do not make citizens arrest just because they think a person is up to no good. They are operating off of a warrant.
Again, context.
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 08:47 PM
No. What I stated is 100% clear. The original post which I quoted had LambChop saying he/she had NEVER heard of a law where people took the law into their own hands. I replied to THAT STATEMENT SPECIFICALLY and cropped everything else out. In conclusion, no matter how you try to spin it to bring Mr. Zimmerman in, it is IRRELEVANT to what I stated and the context of what was stated/quoted.
I thought when people took the law into their own hands they were called a "vigilante"??
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:47 PM
No. What I stated is 100% clear. The original post which I quoted had LambChop saying he/she had NEVER heard of a law where people took the law into their own hands. I replied to THAT STATEMENT SPECIFICALLY and cropped everything else out. In conclusion, no matter how you try to spin it to bring Mr. Zimmerman in, it is IRRELEVANT to what I stated and the context of what was stated/quoted.
Here is exactly what you quoted of LambChops and responded to. I highlighted the important part of her statement.
.................................................. ................
Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
<snip for relevance>
I have NEVER heard of a law that give a private citizen the right to track down an innocent person just because they "think" he might be up to no good. We all have personal freedoms to walk about but I have never heard of a law that encourages people to take the law into their own hands.
Now here is what you are saying she said and it is nowhere close to what she said.
..................................................
No. What I stated is 100% clear. The original post which I quoted had LambChop saying he/she had NEVER heard of a law where people took the law into their own hands.
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 08:48 PM
Here is exactly what you quoted of LambChops and responded to. I highlighted the important part of her statement.
.................................................. ................
Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
<snip for relevance>
I have NEVER heard of a law that give a private citizen the right to track down an innocent person just because they "think" he might be up to no good. We all have personal freedoms to walk about but I have never heard of a law that encourages people to take the law into their own hands.
<snip>
Note the bold.
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 08:51 PM
In the Wild West, when outlaws like Jesse James and Butch Cassidy roamed the land, local sheriffs didn't have the resources to track them down alone. So they put up "Wanted" posters offering huge rewards for their capture (Jesse James was worth $5,000 -- big, big money at the time). Bounty hunters answered the call, tracking the bad guys relentlessly for a piece of the reward money. They did anything it took to bring in the outlaws, "dead or alive."
Today, the stereotype of the rogue bounty hunter remains, even though most modern bounty hunters are trained and licensed professionals.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/bounty-hunting.htm
Glad unlicensed bounty hunters went out with the "wild Wild West!" Geez!
What a bunch of Outlaws!!!
Dr.Fessel
05-21-2012, 08:54 PM
Note the bold. Got you! If you had just snipped a little more of her quote we would have not had that problem. TY Noiter. I thought one of us was going nuts. LOL LOL
ariesgodofwar
05-21-2012, 08:58 PM
Yeah but "Dog the Bounty Hunter" only uses mace... He's my idol.
Because Duane (Dog) has a felony conviction from his younger days and is not allowed to possess a firearm under Federal Law. I have a very good friend who is a former Police Officer and is now a Bounty Hunter (owns his own business), and I assure you, he always carries 2 firearms on him at all times, especially when Bounty Hunting.
LambChop
05-21-2012, 09:05 PM
As I stated in my other reply. Read the context of the quoted statement.
Also, how do you think they make arrests? They are not law enforcement officers. It IS citizen's arrest, which again, is in context to the quoted statement.
LE can't arrest someone without a reason. Walking while black is not a crime. GZ had no right to touch TM, to try to detain TM, TM did not have to answer his questions and certainly did not have to stop for GZ. TM had the same freedoms as GZ. GZ had no right, no authority to take that away from him.
The thread is about GZ who has no legal authority to just walk up to someone and arrest them for no reason. There is no law that states that you can do that. jmo
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 09:08 PM
LE can't arrest someone without a reason. Walking while black is not a crime. GZ had no right to touch TM, to try to detain TM, TM did not have to answer his questions and certainly did not have to stop for GZ. TM had the same freedoms as GZ. GZ had no right, no authority to take that away from him. jmo
And we go back to the out-of-context replies.
Lovelymountains
05-21-2012, 09:22 PM
LE can't arrest someone without a reason. Walking while black is not a crime. GZ had no right to touch TM, to try to detain TM, TM did not have to answer his questions and certainly did not have to stop for GZ. TM had the same freedoms as GZ. GZ had no right, no authority to take that away from him.
The thread is about GZ who has no legal authority to just walk up to someone and arrest them for no reason. There is no law that states that you can do that. jmo
There's an old Andy Griffith episode where Gomer Pyle stops someone and yells, "Citizen's Arr-est, citizen's arr-est." I have a picture in my mind of George Zimmerman doing that and being as ridiculous as Gomer Pyle was.
George Zimmerman had no right to stop TM for any imagined reason, for not liking his looks, for not liking his color, for not liking his clothing or any reason whatsoever since TM was walking on a sidewalk doing nothing illegal. It was Zimmerman who was acting illegally and I hope he is prosecuted for violating TM's civil rights, the most basic of which is the right to life, to which he was entitled just as much as George Zimmerman.
suzihawk
05-21-2012, 09:50 PM
There's an old Andy Griffith episode where Gomer Pyle stops someone and yells, "Citizen's Arr-est, citizen's arr-est." I have a picture in my mind of George Zimmerman doing that and being as ridiculous as Gomer Pyle was.
George Zimmerman had no right to stop TM for any imagined reason, for not liking his looks, for not liking his color, for not liking his clothing or any reason whatsoever since TM was walking on a sidewalk doing nothing illegal. It was Zimmerman who was acting illegally and I hope he is prosecuted for violating TM's civil rights, the most basic of which is the right to life, to which he was entitled just as much as George Zimmerman.
Loved Gomer Pyle! Just to add a little sorely needed levity...
Citizens Arrest - YouTube
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 09:54 PM
Because Duane (Dog) has a felony conviction from his younger days and is not allowed to possess a firearm under Federal Law. I have a very good friend who is a former Police Officer and is now a Bounty Hunter (owns his own business), and I assure you, he always carries 2 firearms on him at all times, especially when Bounty Hunting.
Is he licensed by the state for the work he does? Or does he just go around catching any bad guy he wants to? (Your "friend" that is) I only ask because the assumption being made previously was that this is a "citizen's arrest" when i know for a fact bounty hunters have to be trained, licensed and sometimes deputized. TIA
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 09:56 PM
Is he licensed by the state for the work he does? Or does he just go around catching any bad guy he wants to? (Your "friend" that is) I only ask because the assumption being made previously was that this is a "citizen's arrest" when i know for a fact bounty hunters have to be trained, licensed and sometimes deputized. TIA
Not all states require a bounty hunter to be licensed, just as not all states allow citizen's arrest (thus, no bounty hunters per se - off duty police officers mostly).
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 09:59 PM
Not all states require a bounty hunter to be licensed, just as not all states allow citizen's arrest (thus, no bounty hunters per se - off duty police officers mostly).
That's definitely news to me.... ((smh))
LambChop
05-21-2012, 10:03 PM
Is he licensed by the state for the work he does? Or does he just go around catching any bad guy he wants to? (Your "friend" that is) I only ask because the assumption being made previously was that this is a "citizen's arrest" when i know for a fact bounty hunters have to be trained, licensed and sometimes deputized. TIA
And bonded. jmo
Maxim
05-21-2012, 10:05 PM
I still find it hard to believe that following someone, no matter the speed, is what people are claiming to be what killed Mr. Martin. You would think there would be a law against following someone the way some people try to spin it to be an illegal act.
How can you follow someone you can't see, someone who ran out of sight?
Did GZ walk to the next street? (Seems there was time to do that.) If he did, he wasn't persuing TM, he was looking for TM--looking to see if he left the area. TM didn't go that way, unless he ran around that building and doubled back to the area between the buildings--where they were observed fighting.
deelytful1
05-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Florida
In Florida you must obtain your "limited surety agent" license from the Florida Department of Financial Services, Bureau of Agent and Agency Licensing, in order to legally apprehend bail fugitives.
Bounty hunter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hate to quote Wikipedia but "WHEW" glad bounty hunters here need at least SOME licensing!
Arrest
When someone has the reasonable suspicion that a felony has been committed, a citizen's arrest might be made. The arrest is no different than any other police arrest. All relevant laws apply. Excessive force cannot be used, for example. But the general concept is that any citizen has the right to stop another who has committed a felony.
Read more: Florida Citizen's Arrest Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7258531_florida-citizen_s-arrest-laws.html#ixzz1vYmlJwPR
Guess GZ superceded his rights in a citizen's arrest as well...
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 10:32 PM
How can you follow someone you can't see, someone who ran out of sight?
Did GZ walk to the next street? (Seems there was time to do that.) If he did, he wasn't persuing TM, he was looking for TM--looking to see if he left the area. TM didn't go that way, unless he ran around that building and doubled back to the area between the buildings--where they were observed fighting.
By all accounts Mr. Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon. I'm not sure what your alluding to here. In context, what I stated was in reply to someone saying "Mr. Martin was killed because Mr. Zimmerman followed him" - or something along those lines. With context in mind, aren't you agreeing with what I said, even though it's done argumentatively?
AJ Noiter
05-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Florida
In Florida you must obtain your "limited surety agent" license from the Florida Department of Financial Services, Bureau of Agent and Agency Licensing, in order to legally apprehend bail fugitives.
Bounty hunter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter)
I hate to quote Wikipedia but "WHEW" glad bounty hunters here need at least SOME licensing!
Read more: Florida Citizen's Arrest Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7258531_florida-citizen_s-arrest-laws.html#ixzz1vYmlJwPR
Guess GZ superceded his rights in a citizen's arrest as well...
The only ones to make claim that Mr. Zimmerman was in any way trying to detain Mr. Martin are the supporters of the State of Florida. <modsnip>
i.b.nora
05-21-2012, 10:43 PM
All this debate junk is getting tedious.
Maxim
05-21-2012, 10:50 PM
By all accounts Mr. Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon. I'm not sure what your alluding to here. In context, what I stated was in reply to someone saying "Mr. Martin was killed because Mr. Zimmerman followed him" - or something along those lines. With context in mind, aren't you agreeing with what I said, even though it's done argumentatively?
BBM
Yes, it was supporting. It was intended in a calm, polite tone . . . but I couldn't find a calm, polite icon.
beach
05-21-2012, 11:05 PM
What thread am I on again???
ynotdivein
05-21-2012, 11:26 PM
:peeks head out to look at label on wall:
FBI considering hate crimes charges.
Ok then, carry on...
flourish
05-21-2012, 11:53 PM
A media article, that's interesting seeing how the media is bashed all the time.
And if we're talking statistics, that media article that keeps being used as proof states that there were, 8 burglaries in 14 months, and "several" of them were committed by black kids? How many does that make in 14 months, 2? 3?
Several, not most, not majority and most certainly not rampant crime committed by black kids. So according to that article it certainly doesn't make the profiling charge bogus at all.
Yeah, there are several suspect items in that article being fed to us;)
At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.
Emphasis mine. Well, we know someone who made several reports...but I don't find him particularly credible.
One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.
Again, hmm...someone witnessed this, did they? I admit I haven't been able to keep all the witnesses of everything straight in this case, so perhaps someone might enlighten me, but this sounds hinky to me.
etc.
Karmady
05-22-2012, 12:07 AM
Yeah, there are several suspect items in that article being fed to us;)
Emphasis mine. Well, we know someone who made several reports...but I don't find him particularly credible.
Again, hmm...someone witnessed this, did they? I admit I haven't been able to keep all the witnesses of everything straight in this case, so perhaps someone might enlighten me, but this sounds hinky to me.
etc.
I haven't had 8 burglaries over ALL of the neighborhoods I've ever lived in in my ENTIRE LIFE. If there were 8 burglaries in my tiny gated community in 14 months, I would be moving...pronto. That's a riduculous number of crimes in a small area over a very short period of time by any reasonable law-abiding person's standards, imo.
And the article says that the dozens of attempted break-ins (as opposed to completed burglaries) were reported by residents, not just by George. I'm sayin' it doesn't sound even slightly unlikely that George got his bike stolen off the patio under the circumstances. In fact, it sounds mighty likely. It really makes me sick that there were that many crimes and attempted crimes in a single small neighborhood over a short period of time and the attitude is, oh, no big...go get yerself an alarm system and hope they hit your neighbors instead of you.
suzihawk
05-22-2012, 12:20 AM
A former prosecutor said the state can build a argument for profiling against George Zimmerman.
Former prosecutor Jeff Deen said the state can build a three-pronged argument based on profiling using Zimmerman's own statements and the statements Trayvon Martin made to a girlfriend he was talking to on the phone.
Based on profiling, Deen said, Zimmerman got out of his car and in essence took the fight to Martin.
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZKHaSRj
flourish
05-22-2012, 12:22 AM
I haven't had 8 burglaries over ALL of the neighborhoods I've ever lived in in my ENTIRE LIFE. If there were 8 burglaries in my tiny gated community in 14 months, I would be moving...pronto. That's a riduculous number of crimes in a small area over a very short period of time by any reasonable law-abiding person's standards, imo.
And the article says that the dozens of attempted break-ins (as opposed to completed burglaries) were reported by residents, not just by George. I'm sayin' it doesn't sound even slightly unlikely that George got his bike stolen off the patio under the circumstances. In fact, it sounds mighty likely. It really makes me sick that there were that many crimes and attempted crimes in a single small neighborhood over a short period of time and the attitude is, oh, no big...go get yerself an alarm system and hope they hit your neighbors instead of you.
I'm a reasonable law-abiding person with standards. However, I don't have the financial ability to move and still wouldn't suddenly have more money no matter how many burglaries have occurred in my neighborhood. For many, the real, actual ability to move residence is not just a luxury, but financially impossible.
In any case, some gated communities are actual secure, patrolled-by-actual-watchman secure, and others are just a little neighborhood surrounded by chain-link and an un-manned gate. I don't know the various details of this particular gated community, nor do I know the financial abilities of its residents and how that might have influenced their ability to move.
And I'm certain I've never indicated anyone should buy an alarm system etc.
jjenny
05-22-2012, 12:28 AM
Based on profiling, Deen said, Zimmerman got out of his car and in essence took the fight to Martin.
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZKHaSRj
First of all, I have no clue why prosecution applied the term "profiling" to an ordinary citizen. Second of all, is "profiling" now an illegal activity? FBI has profilers, should they all be arrested now?
AJ Noiter
05-22-2012, 12:30 AM
<snip for relevance>
I don't know the various details of this particular gated community, nor do I know the financial abilities of its residents and how that might have influenced their ability to move.
As of January's StreetView images via Google, the entire west side was little more than chickenwire. In other places where there was an actual fence, it was less than 4" high. Still in other areas (street corners) it's more around 8". I wouldn't call it a secure community at all, regardless of the 3-6 video cameras at the gates alone.
AJ Noiter
05-22-2012, 12:33 AM
A former prosecutor said the state can build a argument for profiling against George Zimmerman.
Former prosecutor Jeff Deen said the state can build a three-pronged argument based on profiling using Zimmerman's own statements and the statements Trayvon Martin made to a girlfriend he was talking to on the phone.
Based on profiling, Deen said, Zimmerman got out of his car and in essence took the fight to Martin.
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZKHaSRj
I read that, and from what they posted I think the title is wrong for at least two reasons. A former prosecutor for the state is not "the state" (title being "State says ..."). Further, from the final comment:
"If I'm the state I say, 'Look he was getting pummeled and out of anger or in the heat of the moment he fired that fatal shot,'" said Deen. "That's second-degree murder."
It's not a case for profiling and he doesn't say it is, period.
Karmady
05-22-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm a reasonable law-abiding person with standards. However, I don't have the financial ability to move and still wouldn't suddenly have more money no matter how many burglaries have occurred in my neighborhood. For many, the real, actual ability to move residence is not just a luxury, but financially impossible.
In any case, some gated communities are actual secure, patrolled-by-actual-watchman secure, and others are just a little neighborhood surrounded by chain-link and an un-manned gate. I don't know the various details of this particular gated community, nor do I know the financial abilities of its residents and how that might have influenced their ability to move.
And I'm certain I've never indicated anyone should buy an alarm system etc.
So do agree that that's a ridiculous amount of crime in a short period of time, and especially troubling if you can't afford to just move?
Karmady
05-22-2012, 12:50 AM
As of January's StreetView images via Google, the entire west side was little more than chickenwire. In other places where there was an actual fence, it was less than 4" high. Still in other areas (street corners) it's more around 8". I wouldn't call it a secure community at all, regardless of the 3-6 video cameras at the gates alone.
Doesn't matter, really. I was focused more on the tiny, than the gated. I certainly haven't lived in gated communities my entire life. Just a tiny fraction of it. And I STILL find that level of crime intolerable. No one should have to put up with that. I know you probably agree, just explaining my OP. I shouldn't have even referrred to the community as gated, as it's almost irrelevant to my point, but not entirely.
Karmady
05-22-2012, 12:52 AM
First of all, I have no clue why prosecution applied the term "profiling" to an ordinary citizen. Second of all, is "profiling" now an illegal activity? FBI has profilers, should they all be arrested now?
Check Deen's twitter, etc. I think he's just stating the case that the State, however misguidedly, is trying to make. I can "make a case" that the moon is made out of cheese. Doesn't mean I'm right or even lucid. jmo
eta: he appeared with Hornsby early on and BOTH of them agreed that the charges should never had been brought.
katydid23
05-22-2012, 01:03 AM
A former prosecutor said the state can build a argument for profiling against George Zimmerman.
Former prosecutor Jeff Deen said the state can build a three-pronged argument based on profiling using Zimmerman's own statements and the statements Trayvon Martin made to a girlfriend he was talking to on the phone.
Based on profiling, Deen said, Zimmerman got out of his car and in essence took the fight to Martin.
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZKHaSRj
Then the jury would have to accept everything that she said as gospel. And I am not sure they are going to do that. The defense is going to bring up some doubt about her ability to be totally accurate after all of that time, and the way a few new things were sprinkled in. Also, if it is true she knew Trayvon since kindergarten, then I think some jurors are going to wonder why she never contacted his mom after this call ended. In other words, if she describes it in a way that makes it ' obvious' that Trayvon was jumped by a scary mad man, then why didn't she ask her mom to find out how to contact his parents. If they knew each other since kindergarten, I would think it was possible.
flourish
05-22-2012, 01:07 AM
So do agree that that's a ridiculous amount of crime in a short period of time, and especially troubling if you can't afford to just move?
I suppose I would have to look up some statistics and compare them to get a better idea of how much crime is ridiculous before I could answer that.
That still leaves GZ with a definite propensity to react in a way that is, imo, consistently overly reactive than appropriate for the situation. And I think that's where the profiling issue comes in. I don't know that "profiling" is going to be the final "word" as far as charges go, b/c, as has been discussed upthread, but the basic issue of making unreasonable assumptions about someone to the point of acting due to those assumptions, and those actions causing a crime.
deelytful1
05-22-2012, 01:07 AM
First of all, I have no clue why prosecution applied the term "profiling" to an ordinary citizen. Second of all, is "profiling" now an illegal activity? FBI has profilers, should they all be arrested now?
They profile serial killers. they don't "racially profile" Although I think the FBI DOES their own racial profiling... just in different directions than this case...
Karmady
05-22-2012, 01:17 AM
I suppose I would have to look up some statistics and compare them to get a better idea of how much crime is ridiculous before I could answer that.
That still leaves GZ with a definite propensity to react in a way that is, imo, consistently overly appropriate for the situation. And I think that's where the profiling issue comes in. I don't know that "profiling" is going to be the final "word" as far as charges go, b/c, as has been discussed upthread, but the basic issue of making unreasonable assumptions about someone to the point of acting due to those assumptions, and those actions causing a crime.
Were his assumptions unreasonable? I think that's the key, morally, not legally. Personally, I don't think they were unreasonable. Legally, however, he was entitled to "profile," which, imo, means that he was entitled to use experience-based common sense. The entitlement to profile may have ended when George decided to use force, but unless that decision was specifically based on Trayvon's status in some protected class (which is a whole 'nother issue for another debate), he is not guilty of any crime, much less a hate crime. And going back to the start of these discussions, George has, notably, not been charged with a hate crime under Florida law (even though there is one), nor is any racial motivation alleged in the PCA. jmo
flourish
05-22-2012, 01:26 AM
Were his assumptions unreasonable? I think that's the key, morally, not legally. Personally, I don't think they were unreasonable. Legally, however, he was entitled to "profile," which, imo, means that he was entitled to use experience-based common sense. The entitlement to profile may have ended when George decided to use force, but unless that decision was specifically based on Trayvon's status in some protected class (which is a whole 'nother issue for another debate), he is not guilty of any crime, much less a hate crime. And going back to the start of these discussions, George has, notably, not been charged with a hate crime under Florida law (even though there is one), nor is any racial motivation alleged in the PCA. jmo
And this is the point at which we can agree to disagree.
I don't believe GZ was reasonable in his assumptions or (imo) overzealous "observations" of TM that evening. I believe GZ was a generally overzealous person, with some sort of insecurity that left him with the need to feel powerful and respected, and that he ensured that sooner or later, he'd have a situation where he could get that need fulfilled. And I feel TM was the chosen target of that evening based on the fact that TM fit the profile of those he had been expecting all along.
I believe it was a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of situation created by George Zimmerman in order to meet his need of being viewed as worthy enough (by his own definition).
HiHater
05-22-2012, 01:28 AM
First of all, I have no clue why prosecution applied the term "profiling" to an ordinary citizen. Second of all, is "profiling" now an illegal activity? FBI has profilers, should they all be arrested now?
We are now comparing FBI highly educated and trained profilers to a street-level wanna be cop who barely had an associate's degree?
(descriptions are MOO)
ynotdivein
05-22-2012, 01:35 AM
So. Given the current status of Florida's laws, do we see hate crime charges being leveled against GZ, or no?
Karmady
05-22-2012, 01:45 AM
So. Given the current status of Florida's laws, do we see hate crime charges being leveled against GZ, or no?
There were no charges brought under Florida law yet afaik, and the supposed slur that got people fired is not alleged. So I would say no based on the charges actually brought and the APC.
liedetector
05-22-2012, 01:51 AM
[/QUOTE]Check Deen's twitter, etc. I think he's just stating the case that the State, however misguidedly, is trying to make. I can "make a case" that the moon is made out of cheese. Doesn't mean I'm right or even lucid. jmo
eta: he appeared with Hornsby early on and BOTH of them agreed that the charges should never had been brought.
And how could they possibly make such a judgment when they are so uninformed, having seen less than half of the prosecution's evidence? ...At this juncture, no one has been able to view all that Mark O'Mara was given, and even he has not seen the other half. Due to this fact, Mark O'Mara has advised that people quit jumping to premature conclusions!
ADDENDUM ...because for some reason I was disallowed to respond in proper order to Karmady's reply (below) to me...unsure if thread is closed?:
Karmady:I said it before wrt to Dershowitz's comments, and I'll say it again, all you need to know is the standard for murder2 and the allegations of the PCA to know whether the charges should have been brought. Doesn't matter what other evidence the SP supposedly has. The charging document must be sufficient. I agree with Dershowitz and many others, that the PCA is a POS and the charges were brought entirely for political reasons.
BBM. Regardless of the charging document, I beg to differ, and again, so does Mark O'Mara - it does indeed matter that more than half of the prosecution's evidence has yet to reviewed. According to today's Orlando Sentinel, in regards to criminal-defense lawyers who've reviewed the evidence and been critical of Corey, accusing her of filing a second-degree murder charge without enough evidence to support it (ahem, Dershowitz) -Mark O'Mara stated that such criticism "]would be premature.[/I]"
I also politely disagree with you and the guy who helped get O.J. and Claus Von Bulow off, that the charges were brought by the state "entirely for political reasons" -as I believe when the prosecution actually show's their hand, GZ will be shown to be a murderer. Actually, the following quote from Deen (in the article today that was previously referenced) very quickly sums up one of my theories (BBM and IBM):
"If I'm the state I say, 'Look he was getting pummeled and out of anger or in the heat of the moment he fired that fatal shot,'" said Deen. "That's second-degree murder."[/I]
...Though I still question the pummeling part, I'm pretty confident that anger, not fear caused GZ to pull that trigger..
http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZLCD3lR
Karmady
05-22-2012, 02:02 AM
And how could they possibly make such a judgment when they have seen less than half of the prosecution's evidence? At this juncture, no one has been able to view all that Mark O'Mara was given, and even he has not seen the other half. Due to this fact, Mark O'Mara has advised that people quit jumping to premature conclusions.
I said it before wrt to Dershowitz's comments, and I'll say it again, all you need to know is the standard for murder2 and the allegations of the PCA to know whether the charges should have been brought. Doesn't matter what other evidence the SP supposedly has. The charging document must be sufficient. I agree with Dershowitz and many others, that the PCA is a <modsnip> and the charges were brought entirely for political reasons.
vlpate
05-22-2012, 02:02 AM
We are now comparing FBI highly educated and trained profilers to a street-level wanna be cop
<snipped for emphasis>
I think you made her point.
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 07:26 AM
Have you ever had a debate with friends on opposite sides of a hot button issue and find that when you are all reasonable, there is often a solid middle ground. I think that would be possible in this case.
I see no problem with GZ getting out of the car, but I have read good posts articulating the other point of view. I don't believe GZ initiated physical contact but there are no witnesses, so we all are free to enjoy our own speculation. It is the Race infusion in this case that IMO pushes people into hard angry corners.
If the crime stats show a problem with young Black teens or even just teens...there is an explanation other than race for watching GZ. So all this talk of profiling and "hate crimes" seems grossly unfair and as if politicans and Crump are "using" this tragedy for other purposes.
Because those of us who are not a minority have a right to ask how broad our government intends to make "criminalizing" offending someone? Because the "profiling" charge PRECEDES the death here. Take the profiling/race card out of this and we are left with that tragic death, two minorities who somehow clashed, and questions that must be answered.
The Martins are imminently entitled to all that and to the most fair and honest examination of the evidence. I'll have to see all of it before I say there should be a trial. It may be that laws need to be changed in order to prevent NO CHARGES but you cannot go back and punish GZ if those laws were in his favor that night.
It seems that the way that Crump is trying to circumvent the Law as it existed that night...is by using RACE. He is manipulating the real concept of "profiling" and using a word that infuriates to get the conviction EVEN if the Law, as it existed that night, does not justify it.
That is what offends MANY people. Using Race...to divide us MORE so that HE can win a conviction...and some believe head into civil suits of Big $$$ potential. Using RACE where the use of it is thin becuase the Law might not win him the case but angry jurors might ignore the Law.
That is not Justice. That is not the way we should want cases won.
That is wrong because it shoves us into far away corners. There is nothing racial about this case. I believe that GZ would have followed a "white/Hispanic" teen that he did not recognize in that area that night. There's no proof he would not. In fact, the Defense might make a good case that age was the compelling factor in GZ's mind. What were the ages of the majority of these criminals?
In fact, GZ and TM both have a look of mixed racial heritage. TM could have been a Black/Hispanic for all GZ knew. It was dark. Nobody wears labels that define their heritage. The factors were that he was a teenager and he was not one of the neighborhood teens. NOT that he was Black.
Or is it "profiling" now in some legal sense to watch teenagers of any and all skin hues that you do not know...when teenagers are targeting your neighborhood with crime?
Really?
Edited to add that Crump's strategy may backfire. If any juror is offended and feel he has overplayed the racial aspect, they may refuse to listen to anything else he says. We have seen this before as in the jury reaction to what they felt was overkill on Casey Anthony. And if he keeps pushing the racial aspect , he diminishes the ability to bring people together to discuss the STG laws. That would surely NOT be Justice for Trayvon.
HiHater
05-22-2012, 07:50 AM
I think you made her point.
I think you missed the point. 2 different types of profiling, done under very different circumstances. One type is informed by education/statistics/etc. the other kind is informed by ignorance.
No, FBI profilers shouldn't all be arrested---but I'm glad GZ was!
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 07:52 AM
Again, it is clear that GZ was motivated by statistics not ignorance. In fact, "ignorance" would be paying no attention to the demographic of those committing most of the crimes. And that DEmographic could simply have been...teenagers.
suzihawk
05-22-2012, 08:05 AM
I said it before wrt to Dershowitz's comments, and I'll say it again, all you need to know is the standard for murder2 and the allegations of the PCA to know whether the charges should have been brought. Doesn't matter what other evidence the SP supposedly has. The charging document must be sufficient. I agree with Dershowitz and many others, that the PCA is a <modsnip> and the charges were brought entirely for political reasons.
That doesn't make sense. If the charges were brought entirely for political reasons, I'd think AC would be confident it was case she thought she could win. Why would she bring unfounded charges in an extremely high profile case she would be sure to lose, if it was entirely for political reasons?
IMO, it would be disastrous for the FBI to charge GZ with a hate crime. There is no evidence of racial animosity present in this crime. The idea that regular citizens can be arrested and charged with hate crimes for being suspicious of someone of a different race is a truly terrifying one.
JMO, OMO, and MOO
LambChop
05-22-2012, 08:12 AM
Again, it is clear that GZ was motivated by statistics not ignorance. In fact, "ignorance" would be paying no attention to the demographic of those committing most of the crimes. And that DEmographic could simply have been...teenagers.
I think the person who was doing most of the breakins of the homes was caught. It ended up being someone within the community who had a prior arrest record and was on probation. This person was arrested in February after the FT incident at his home. There was no reason for GZ to think TM was committing a crime, none, when the person had already been arrested and GZ was aware of that. And obviously if some of these teens "got away" it could be because it was the same person. No proof it wasn't. If someone lives there they are in the perfect position to see who is home, who leaves for work, etc.
What proof is there that there were eight different teens trying to break into the these homes when they "got away"? If they got away, how would anyone know for sure who they were. They weren't identified or they would have been arrested. For all we know it was that one person and maybe some of his friends. Logic would tell you if the person was caught and there have been no more attempts, you probably got the right person. We certainly know it was not TM.
So in that respect GZ was profiling TM. Does not mean it was a hate crime. Profiling is deciding someone is up to no good just because of their appearance, which is exactly what GZ did. He can't deny it, it's on tape. Now whether he did it because of hate, I doubt the FBI will come to that conclusion unless there are witnesses who feel he is a racists and can give the FBI proof. jmo
LambChop
05-22-2012, 08:33 AM
That doesn't make sense. If the charges were brought entirely for political reasons, I'd think AC would be confident it was case she thought she could win. Why would she bring unfounded charges in an extremely high profile case she would be sure to lose, if it was entirely for political reasons?
Talk about political....lol It was Wolfinger that stepped down citing "conflict of interest" and the Chief stepping completely out of the picture completely citing "because of my involvement" I think AC was doing what she was told and this case was assigned to her because Sanford could not be trusted. IMO that would be pretty obvious to us all.
Seems to me the Martins said early on they wanted the truth and would accept it whatever that truth might be. Whatever happened that night should have made sense when GZ gave his statements. We just are now seeing that and questioning GZ's actions is the right thing to do.
I would find it ironic if the defense camp were complaining about the use of politics. That in mind, the Martins had every right to ask for help from the FBI and to have the case looked into by another DA outside of Sanford. jmo
sleonardelli
05-22-2012, 08:45 AM
I think the person who was doing most of the breakins of the homes was caught. It ended up being someone within the community who had a prior arrest record and was on probation. This person was arrested in February after the FT incident at his home. There was no reason for GZ to think TM was committing a crime, none, when the person had already been arrested and GZ was aware of that. And obviously if some of these teens "got away" it could be because it was the same person. No proof it wasn't. If someone lives there they are in the perfect position to see who is home, who leaves for work, etc.
What proof is there that there were eight different teens trying to break into the these homes when they "got away"? If they got away, how would anyone know for sure who they were. They weren't identified or they would have been arrested. For all we know it was that one person and maybe some of his friends. Logic would tell you if the person was caught and there have been no more attempts, you probably got the right person. We certainly know it was not TM.
So in that respect GZ was profiling TM. Does not mean it was a hate crime. Profiling is deciding someone is up to no good just because of their appearance, which is exactly what GZ did. He can't deny it, it's on tape. Now whether he did it because of hate, I doubt the FBI will come to that conclusion unless there are witnesses who feel he is a racists and can give the FBI proof. jmo
I recall reading an article about how he accused some black teens or that he found them "suspicious" and they turned out to be guests in the neighborhood. One guy, with dreadlocks, even had to go to the police station to explain that he was invited there.
suzihawk
05-22-2012, 08:52 AM
I recall reading an article about how he accused some black teens or that he found them "suspicious" and they turned out to be guests in the neighborhood. One guy, with dreadlocks, even had to go to the police station to explain that he was invited there.
It would be interesting to see how many insurance claims were made by the residents for stolen property and who filed them?
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:04 AM
Have you ever had a debate with friends on opposite sides of a hot button issue and find that when you are all reasonable, there is often a solid middle ground. I think that would be possible in this case.
I see no problem with GZ getting out of the car, but I have read good posts articulating the other point of view. I don't believe GZ initiated physical contact but there are no witnesses, so we all are free to enjoy our own speculation. It is the Race infusion in this case that IMO pushes people into hard angry corners.
If the crime stats show a problem with young Black teens or even just teens...there is an explanation other than race for watching GZ. So all this talk of profiling and "hate crimes" seems grossly unfair and as if politicans and Crump are "using" this tragedy for other purposes.
Because those of us who are not a minority have a right to ask how broad our government intends to make "criminalizing" offending someone? Because the "profiling" charge PRECEDES the death here. Take the profiling/race card out of this and we are left with that tragic death, two minorities who somehow clashed, and questions that must be answered.
The Martins are imminently entitled to all that and to the most fair and honest examination of the evidence. I'll have to see all of it before I say there should be a trial. It may be that laws need to be changed in order to prevent NO CHARGES but you cannot go back and punish GZ if those laws were in his favor that night.
It seems that the way that Crump is trying to circumvent the Law as it existed that night...is by using RACE. He is manipulating the real concept of "profiling" and using a word that infuriates to get the conviction EVEN if the Law, as it existed that night, does not justify it.
That is what offends MANY people. Using Race...to divide us MORE so that HE can win a conviction...and some believe head into civil suits of Big $$$ potential. Using RACE where the use of it is thin becuase the Law might not win him the case but angry jurors might ignore the Law.
That is not Justice. That is not the way we should want cases won.
That is wrong because it shoves us into far away corners. There is nothing racial about this case. I believe that GZ would have followed a "white/Hispanic" teen that he did not recognize in that area that night. There's no proof he would not. In fact, the Defense might make a good case that age was the compelling factor in GZ's mind. What were the ages of the majority of these criminals?
In fact, GZ and TM both have a look of mixed racial heritage. TM could have been a Black/Hispanic for all GZ knew. It was dark. Nobody wears labels that define their heritage. The factors were that he was a teenager and he was not one of the neighborhood teens. NOT that he was Black.
Or is it "profiling" now in some legal sense to watch teenagers of any and all skin hues that you do not know...when teenagers are targeting your neighborhood with crime?
Really?
Edited to add that Crump's strategy may backfire. If any juror is offended and feel he has overplayed the racial aspect, they may refuse to listen to anything else he says. We have seen this before as in the jury reaction to what they felt was overkill on Casey Anthony. And if he keeps pushing the racial aspect , he diminishes the ability to bring people together to discuss the STG laws. That would surely NOT be Justice for Trayvon.
I like to think that people, of all colors, would be just as outraged if Trayvon and GZ were blue and green.
Beyond the racial implications of GZ's actions, you also have the response of law enforcement officials. They didn't seem to be in a rush to give Trayvon Martin equal protection under the law, until people protested and called for justice. That should not have had to happen, but if it didn't, GZ would have just walked away from killing a 17 year old boy and went right back to work the next day.
Lastly, Crump is not prosecuting or defending this case. So, his relevance in front of a jury is null in my opinion. Jurors are supposed to have not formed any opinion, and nothing Crump said in pretrial media should make its way into the courtroom...
All MOO
songline
05-22-2012, 09:06 AM
i said it before wrt to dershowitz's comments, and i'll say it again, all you need to know is the standard for murder2 and the allegations of the pca to know whether the charges should have been brought. Doesn't matter what other evidence the sp supposedly has. The charging document must be sufficient. I agree with dershowitz and many others, that the pca <Mod Snip>and the charges were brought entirely for political reasons.
bingo!
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:09 AM
Again, it is clear that GZ was motivated by statistics not ignorance. In fact, "ignorance" would be paying no attention to the demographic of those committing most of the crimes. And that DEmographic could simply have been...teenagers.
GZ didn't have complete statistics. He was aware that SOME of the burglaries were committed by young, black males. There has been no evidence that every burglary was even solved. IMO, he clearly had his own racial biases and they played at least some role in this. You don't go door to door warning people about young black males, you warn about crime and inform people to protect themselves. IIRC, some of the burglaries were no force--the perp walked in through a sliding glass door. Instead of telling people to be weary of a group of people, you can tell them to be proactive in protecting your property---at least that's a message that would make more sense to disseminate from my perspective.
jmo
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:11 AM
IMO, it would be disastrous for the FBI to charge GZ with a hate crime. There is no evidence of racial animosity present in this crime. The idea that regular citizens can be arrested and charged with hate crimes for being suspicious of someone of a different race is a truly terrifying one.
JMO, OMO, and MOO
The idea that a young, black male is dead in large part because he was a young, black male is terrifying to me. I don't know if a hate crime is warranted in this case, but what GZ did was not okay on many different levels. It's okay to be suspicious of people, but following-confronting-killing them? Where is the line drawn?
LiveLaughLuv
05-22-2012, 09:22 AM
IMO, it would be disastrous for the FBI to charge GZ with a hate crime. There is no evidence of racial animosity present in this crime. The idea that regular citizens can be arrested and charged with hate crimes for being suspicious of someone of a different race is a truly terrifying one.
JMO, OMO, and MOO
The thing that would make this racial is the alleged excited utterance of the ******ing "oons"...what ever is heard before the ooons...if it is a "C" or "G" and I feel this is a moot point since the FBI couldn't say it was said for certain...the other element is the 'criminal' profiling but that doesn't amount to a hate crime..
I don't believe it has to do with the last sentence in the quote. That's not what a hate crime is all about...it has to be something more egregious than just being of a different race..If GZ stated the "C".....oons, then by all rights that would make it a hate crime for that is a demeaning, disparaging word used to describe AA's....back in the day..only those stuck in their own old school era would use that...I don't hear it used today but back when it was used..
songline
05-22-2012, 09:25 AM
Have you ever had a debate with friends on opposite sides of a hot button issue and find that when you are all reasonable, there is often a solid middle ground. I think that would be possible in this case.
I see no problem with GZ getting out of the car, but I have read good posts articulating the other point of view. I don't believe GZ initiated physical contact but there are no witnesses, so we all are free to enjoy our own speculation. It is the Race infusion in this case that IMO pushes people into hard angry corners.
If the crime stats show a problem with young Black teens or even just teens...there is an explanation other than race for watching GZ. So all this talk of profiling and "hate crimes" seems grossly unfair and as if politicans and Crump are "using" this tragedy for other purposes.
Because those of us who are not a minority have a right to ask how broad our government intends to make "criminalizing" offending someone? Because the "profiling" charge PRECEDES the death here. Take the profiling/race card out of this and we are left with that tragic death, two minorities who somehow clashed, and questions that must be answered.
The Martins are imminently entitled to all that and to the most fair and honest examination of the evidence. I'll have to see all of it before I say there should be a trial. It may be that laws need to be changed in order to prevent NO CHARGES but you cannot go back and punish GZ if those laws were in his favor that night.
It seems that the way that Crump is trying to circumvent the Law as it existed that night...is by using RACE. He is manipulating the real concept of "profiling" and using a word that infuriates to get the conviction EVEN if the Law, as it existed that night, does not justify it.
That is what offends MANY people. Using Race...to divide us MORE so that HE can win a conviction...and some believe head into civil suits of Big $$$ potential. Using RACE where the use of it is thin becuase the Law might not win him the case but angry jurors might ignore the Law.
That is not Justice. That is not the way we should want cases won.
That is wrong because it shoves us into far away corners. There is nothing racial about this case. I believe that GZ would have followed a "white/Hispanic" teen that he did not recognize in that area that night. There's no proof he would not. In fact, the Defense might make a good case that age was the compelling factor in GZ's mind. What were the ages of the majority of these criminals?
In fact, GZ and TM both have a look of mixed racial heritage. TM could have been a Black/Hispanic for all GZ knew. It was dark. Nobody wears labels that define their heritage. The factors were that he was a teenager and he was not one of the neighborhood teens. NOT that he was Black.
Or is it "profiling" now in some legal sense to watch teenagers of any and all skin hues that you do not know...when teenagers are targeting your neighborhood with crime?
Really?
Edited to add that Crump's strategy may backfire. If any juror is offended and feel he has overplayed the racial aspect, they may refuse to listen to anything else he says. We have seen this before as in the jury reaction to what they felt was overkill on Casey Anthony. And if he keeps pushing the racial aspect , he diminishes the ability to bring people together to discuss the STG laws. That would surely NOT be Justice for Trayvon.
BBM There in lies the essense of what the Martin team is doing.
Everything I made bold I agree with (ITA with the entire post) and it has nothing to do with the case.
there for the hate crime IMO is from thier side.
While I have said from day one that an investigation should happen. I also said "not that way, and not that team"
songline
05-22-2012, 09:34 AM
The idea that a young, black male is dead in large part because he was a young, black male is terrifying to me. I don't know if a hate crime is warranted in this case, but what GZ did was not okay on many different levels. It's okay to be suspicious of people, but following-confronting-killing them? Where is the line drawn?
hmmmm BBM - based on this description, there is no room to consider what if Tryavon did jump him?
Based on your description it sounds like GZ profiled, perused and killed... THAT IS NOT what happened.
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:42 AM
hmmmm BBM - based on this description, there is no room to consider what if Tryavon did jump him?
Based on your description it sounds like GZ profiled, perused and killed... THAT IS NOT what happened.
Did GZ not follow, confront, and subsequently kill Trayvon?
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 09:49 AM
I like to think that people, of all colors, would be just as outraged if Trayvon and GZ were blue and green.
Beyond the racial implications of GZ's actions, you also have the response of law enforcement officials. They didn't seem to be in a rush to give Trayvon Martin equal protection under the law, until people protested and called for justice. That should not have had to happen, but if it didn't, GZ would have just walked away from killing a 17 year old boy and went right back to work the next day.
Lastly, Crump is not prosecuting or defending this case. So, his relevance in front of a jury is null in my opinion. Jurors are supposed to have not formed any opinion, and nothing Crump said in pretrial media should make its way into the courtroom...
All MOO
The problem the poice had that night was the SYG law. It seems to me to also have a wide latitude. If witnesses said GZ was screaming for help, and TM was on top, and GZ had injuries, this Law, as it stands, gave the police and first DA a logical rationale for not charging GZ. Is SYG a good law? That should be the debate. But it is NOT a racist law. It would have given a Black man the abiiity to walk away as well under the same circumstances. So it's a controversial LAW, not the police, and certaily, not GZ, that makes many feel TM was not getting justice. Fury should be directed at changing that law...not calling "racism." Because the Law protects and "ignores" regardless of skin hue.
Remove emotion and you have no racism, but possibly poorly written or just bad LAW.
But even if the police were racist....that does not mean GZ should pay for it by trying to make him a racist for his very logical following of a someone who fit the demographic of the crime statistics targeting his neighbors and him.
The media report that GZ made a racial slur is in dispute and I believe has even been walked back. Why is the media "investigating" anyway? They pay "experts" who differ from other experts and they should just be reporting what actually is in court documents. These "experts" are guessing anyway. Most of these tapes are garbled. I don't think a man should spend the rest of his life in prison because of differing opinions on what a tape says.
As for GZ having "complete statistics"...come on. There was enough stuff going on in that neighborhood that they ha the police out to meet with the neighbors. Let's just say, the problem was teenage kids. OfCOURSE, everyone would be watching a teenage kid, at night, that was not known in the neighborhood. hat is not RACIAL. That is what common sense from our experiences teaches us to do.
Do you want my AA neighbor hauled into court and sued for watching white thugs when they are a neighborhood problem?
This case was made racial only because the SYG LAW wasn't going to allow Crump to "get" GZ. That is not justice and it may backfire if a jury feels , as many do, that he has overplayed his hand.
LambChop
05-22-2012, 09:52 AM
hmmmm BBM - based on this description, there is no room to consider what if Tryavon did jump him?
Based on your description it sounds like GZ profiled, perused and killed... THAT IS NOT what happened.
Actually that is exactly what happened considering TM was not involved in any crime and in GZ's call to LE he starts off by saying there have been breakins in the past and TM looks suspicious. GZ never reported a crime he saw TM committing. GZ knew also there had been an arrest of someone living in the community who was doing the breakins. Since TM was NOT involved in a crime, it makes it profiling. Gilbreath said GZ was profiling. The FBI is investigating for profiling. Does it rise to the level of a "hate" crime, I doubt it unless the FBI has more information. But GZ fits the description to a T when you look up the definition of profiling. Even down to the part where he was "acting" on behalf of LE and essentially doing their job for them.
Also that first site that GZ had, the one he set up himself with the picture of the black church that had the "hate" message on it, not going to do GZ any favors. It made it look as if he supported that type of activities. IMO the money contributed from those who do support that type of behavior would have been welcome by GZ at the time. jmo
Maxim
05-22-2012, 09:54 AM
I think you missed the point. 2 different types of profiling, done under very different circumstances. One type is informed by education/statistics/etc. the other kind is informed by ignorance.
No, FBI profilers shouldn't all be arrested---but I'm glad GZ was!
There were plenty of profilers around the case:
The media and race baiters who profiled GZ (immediately) as a White man against a little, black 12yo kid.
When that was wrong . . .
He's a White/Hispanic against a young, black kid.
Wrong again.
He's Hispanic against a young, black teen, outweighed him by 100 lbs.
Wrong again . . . 27 lbs. approximately.
When it turned out he is a Black/Hispanic, he's a zealot because no one defends his community to make it better and he hates his race.
It couldn't possibly be anything else because we know the GZs of the world.
Profiling?
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:56 AM
The problem the poice had that night was the SYG law. It seems to me to also have a wide latitude. If witnesses said GZ was screaming for help, and TM was on top, and GZ had injuries, this Law, as it stands, gave the police and first DA a logical rationale for not charging GZ. Is SYG a good law? That should be the debate. But it is NOT a racist law. It would have given a Black man the abiiity to walk away as well under the same circumstances. So it's a controversial LAW, not the police, and certaily, not GZ, that makes many feel TM was not getting justice. Fury should be directed at changing that law...not calling "racism." Because the Law protects and "ignores" regardless of skin hue.
Remove emotion and you have no racism, but possibly poorly written or just bad LAW.
But even if the police were racist....that does not mean GZ should pay for it by trying to make him a racist for his very logical following of a someone who fit the demographic of the crime statistics targeting his neighbors and him.
The media report that GZ made a racial slur is in dispute and I believe has even been walked back. Why is the media "investigating" anyway? They pay "experts" who differ from other experts and they should just be reporting what actually is in court documents. These "experts" are guessing anyway. Most of these tapes are garbled. I don't think a man should spend the rest of his life in prison because of differing opinions on what a tape says.
As for GZ having "complete statistics"...come on. There was enough stuff going on in that neighborhood that they ha the police out to meet with the neighbors. Let's just say, the problem was teenage kids. OfCOURSE, everyone would be watching a teenage kid, at night, that was not known in the neighborhood. hat is not RACIAL. That is what common sense from our experiences teaches us to do.
Do you want my AA neighbor hauled into court and sued for watching white thugs when they are a neighborhood problem?
This case was made racial only because the SYG LAW wasn't going to allow Crump to "get" GZ. That is not justice and it may backfire if a jury feels , as many do, that he has overplayed his hand.
I would just like to point out, again, that Crump has no hand to play except for in a civil court setting. He is not going to be at the prosecution or defense table at a trial, is he?
I'm not willing to say the problem was teenage kids. I don't know that, and I don't see how you do either? Some of the burglaries were unsolved, and in the other cases, I don't remember a teenager being the suspect necessarily. I'd have to go read back over that to say one way or the other though.
GZ did NOT know every single person in that neighborhood, so there could have been any number of people who were unfamiliar to him walking around at any given time. Why he honed in on this particular person and pegged him as suspicious can only be debated.
JMO
HiHater
05-22-2012, 09:58 AM
There were plenty of profilers around the case:
The media and race baiters who profiled GZ (immediately) as a White man against a little, black 12yo kid.
When that was wrong . . .
He's a White/Hispanic against a young, black kid.
Wrong again.
He's Hispanic against a young, black teen, outweighed him by 100 lbs.
Wrong again . . . 27 lbs. approximately.
When it turned out he is a Black/Hispanic, he's a zealot because no one defends his community to make it better and he hates his race.
It couldn't possibly be anything else because we know the GZs of the world.
Profiling?
I don't even know how to reply! All of the inaccuracies in this post make it hard to engage? imo
pjblack
05-22-2012, 10:00 AM
Did GZ not follow, confront, and subsequently kill Trayvon?
Your question/statement is an overgeneralization. You are not allowing for intervening factors. It is like saying you woke up, you ate, and you slept. What about everything that happened in between?
imamaze
05-22-2012, 10:02 AM
The problem the poice had that night was the SYG law. It seems to me to also have a wide latitude. If witnesses said GZ was screaming for help, and TM was on top, and GZ had injuries, this Law, as it stands, gave the police and first DA a logical rationale for not charging GZ. Is SYG a good law? That should be the debate. But it is NOT a racist law. It would have given a Black man the abiiity to walk away as well under the same circumstances. So it's a controversial LAW, not the police, and certaily, not GZ, that makes many feel TM was not getting justice. Fury should be directed at changing that law...not calling "racism." Because the Law protects and "ignores" regardless of skin hue.
Remove emotion and you have no racism, but possibly poorly written or just bad LAW.
But even if the police were racist....that does not mean GZ should pay for it by trying to make him a racist for his very logical following of a someone who fit the demographic of the crime statistics targeting his neighbors and him.
The media report that GZ made a racial slur is in dispute and I believe has even been walked back. Why is the media "investigating" anyway? They pay "experts" who differ from other experts and they should just be reporting what actually is in court documents. These "experts" are guessing anyway. Most of these tapes are garbled. I don't think a man should spend the rest of his life in prison because of differing opinions on what a tape says.
As for GZ having "complete statistics"...come on. There was enough stuff going on in that neighborhood that they ha the police out to meet with the neighbors. Let's just say, the problem was teenage kids. OfCOURSE, everyone would be watching a teenage kid, at night, that was not known in the neighborhood. hat is not RACIAL. That is what common sense from our experiences teaches us to do.
Do you want my AA neighbor hauled into court and sued for watching white thugs when they are a neighborhood problem?
This case was made racial only because the SYG LAW wasn't going to allow Crump to "get" GZ. That is not justice and it may backfire if a jury feels , as many do, that he has overplayed his hand.
BBM...
How would Crump get GZ if its made racial? I have not ever been in a position where I was racial profiled. Do I think it happens? You bet and I think that is where Crump is coming from. I don't see him overplaying anything. I think it should be investigated as is being done and presented to a jury. I don't see it backfiring though, it should be looked into.
You asked would I want my neighbor hauled into court for watching white thugs? I don't see anything wrong with 'watching'. Why would anyone follow a thug? I just don't get it. Just call the cops and let them handle it. I have a real problem with GZ following and continuing to follow TM with a gun. Something seriously wrong with that imo.
Ima
LambChop
05-22-2012, 10:03 AM
I don't think the FBI cares what Crump has to say. I think the FBI cares about what GZ has had to say in the past and what his past history and interaction with people in the workplace, socially and his history of calling 911 about AA's regarding whether or not those calls were justified. Crump just lodged the complaint in representation of the Martins. They have every right to do so. If GZ is innocent of any wrong doing as far as hate crimes the FBI will finish their report and clear him. If the evidence is there, it's there and they will charge him. They certainly aren't rushing to judgment. jmo
HiHater
05-22-2012, 10:05 AM
Your question/statement is an overgeneralization. You are not allowing for intervening factors. It is like saying you woke up, you ate, and you slept. What about everything that happened in between?
Okay, to be a little more clear:
GZ first profiled Trayvon Martin.
GZ then followed Trayvon Martin.
GZ at some point confronted Trayvon Martin.
GZ assaulted Trayvon Martin.
GZ killed Trayvon Martin during the process of said assault.
All moo
gator
05-22-2012, 10:08 AM
It just absolutely astounds me that many people are so ready to give up their freedoms to live in some controlled environment where armed 'volunteers' roam about 'watching'! How on earth can it be normal to have citizens followed and stalked just because one person, on his own, decides they look 'suspicious'. Then when one takes up for himself , Stands His Ground, and demands to quit being followed, gets blown away, yet he's in the wrong! Where does it end? Can a man follow and 'watch' women, children, their visitors, the mailman? Also, I really question the news report on the previous page that states houses in that neighborhood were cased and the attempted breakins. How do they know houses were being cased? How do they really know who was doing it? Some psychopaths love to be heroes and this case reminds me of a conversation I had the other day with a gun enthusiast who lives near me. He said that he shot up his former home when a guy got in and tried to rob him. His feeling was that crime in that neighborhood really dropped for awhile after he did that. Perhaps mr. z had some of the same thoughts, and wanted to be the hero. If one person was shot, big deal. Crime would drop, and I'll bet it has there even though Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, and was not on or near the volunteer's home trying to break in. Those supposed so high crime statistics might be the same in just about any neighborhood where thieves believe people have electronics to steal. In a mixed race neighborhood, how on earth can ANY black people be considered suspicous while walking around just because a few black people did a few crimes? It's insane.
BBM. YES. Bravo!!!
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 10:11 AM
We can argue all day about the crime statisics. You can reject the Reuters article were the AA neighbor says that the "elephant in the living room was Black teen crime." But if those statistics exist and it is even just "teenagers" who were the dominant problem...and PLEASE, they often are statistically...then TM's team has to convince a jury that ONLY RACE MATTERED. Every single one of those jurors will have to buy that and ignore the crime stats.
As for Crump, he is the face of the Team. I think that he is making signifant errors in "racializing" this trial to the extent he has...and encouraging the family to share their grief at large events pre-trial. It seems to be a PR move that poisons before a jury is set. I do not blame the family...I blame HIM.
It might just create sympathy for GZ among others if it seems he has this big PR campaign appearing even internationally before he has his day in court. I wonder if Crump has considered that? Maybe Nancy Grace did "Tot Mom" a huge favor.
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 10:16 AM
BBM. YES. Bravo!!!
A teenager just walking around on a rainy night that is not one of the neighborhood kids can absolutely be considered someone to watch.
You mean if your neighborhood had all these problems, you would just assume a stranger walking around at night was out for his evening constitutional? Crime does things to its victims. I have traveled with a woman who was raped and I have to walk her to her room , go inside and then walk over there again the next morning. Is that silly for a grown woman?
No, crime effects how we think. Crime makes us afraid and FEAR makes us look at lots of things differently.
LambChop
05-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Okay, to be a little more clear:
GZ first profiled Trayvon Martin.
GZ then followed Trayvon Martin.
GZ at some point confronted Trayvon Martin.
GZ assaulted Trayvon Martin.
GZ killed Trayvon Martin during the process of said assault.
All moo
I can agree with most of this up to the port of GZ assaulted TM. I don't think that happened. I think GZ tried to hold onto TM and GZ being the heavier of the two landed on the bottom with GZ getting hurt in the balance. But profiling, absolutely. Gilbreath claimed that in the bond hearing. FBI is still investigating this very issue and whether it could be considered a "hate" crime.
This is the FBI thread investigating GZ for profiling TM for what could be considered a hate crime. There is no doubt they've established the profiling part because that is clear by the description GZ gives the dispatcher on the tape and in particular making comments to make TM sound more suspicious...something's in his hands (a bag from 7-11), his hand in his waistband (ironically this is where GZ had his gun so what was GZ suggesting), etc. Clearly in GZ's mind he was absolutely sure this kid was a criminal. That is the definition of profiling when you have no reason to believe there was any crime happening at the time, before or after. GZ had "zero" evidence there was a crime, "zero" and even less that one was about to happen. jmo
gator
05-22-2012, 10:27 AM
A teenager just walking around on a rainy night that is not one of the neighborhood kids can absolutely be considered someone to watch.
You mean if your neighborhood had all these problems, you would just assume a stranger walking around at night was out for his evening constitutional? Crime does things to its victims. I have traveled with a woman who was raped and I have to walk her to her room , go inside and then walk over there again the next morning. Is that silly for a grown woman?
No, crime effects how we think. Crime makes us afraid and FEAR makes us look at lots of things differently.
GZ's actions in no way made the neighborhood safer, and instead added to the crime statistics he was so concerned about. IMO.
Maxim
05-22-2012, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Maxim
There were plenty of profilers around the case:
The media and race baiters who profiled GZ (immediately) as a White man against a little, black 12yo kid.
When that was wrong . . .
He's a White/Hispanic against a young, black kid.
Wrong again.
He's Hispanic against a young, black teen, outweighed him by 100 lbs.
Wrong again . . . 27 lbs. approximately.
When it turned out he is a Black/Hispanic, he's a zealot because no one defends his community to make it better and he hates his race.
It couldn't possibly be anything else because we know the GZs of the world.
Profiling?
I don't even know how to reply! All of the inaccuracies in this post make it hard to engage? imo
Where, which are inaccurate? Many of us heard or read the above.
Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck ... It's the Profiling Duck!
LambChop
05-22-2012, 10:31 AM
A teenager just walking around on a rainy night that is not one of the neighborhood kids can absolutely be considered someone to watch.
You mean if your neighborhood had all these problems, you would just assume a stranger walking around at night was out for his evening constitutional? Crime does things to its victims. I have traveled with a woman who was raped and I have to walk her to her room , go inside and then walk over there again the next morning. Is that silly for a grown woman?
No, crime effects how we think. Crime makes us afraid and FEAR makes us look at lots of things differently.
Considering GZ knew they had just arrested someone for doing the breakins in the community. If GZ was "affected" by crimes in his neighborhood he should have allowed LE to do there job and should have never chased someone with a gun. I've been a crime victim. I don't chase people down for walking in the rain but then I don't carry a gun. Do you think GZ felt justified in following TM because he had the gun??? Or was it just because TM was black and since the latest arrest was a black kid from the neighborhood this guy must be up to no good? I don't see how it's possible to justify what GZ did. If we are affected that severely by a crime that we are in a constant fear of the unknown the last thing we would need is a gun. Fear makes it easier for us to be mistaken. jmo
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 10:35 AM
I can agree with most of this up to the port of GZ assaulted TM. I don't think that happened. I think GZ tried to hold onto TM and GZ being the heavier of the two landed on the bottom with GZ getting hurt in the balance. But profiling, absolutely. Gilbreath claimed that in the bond hearing. FBI is still investigating this very issue and whether it could be considered a "hate" crime.
This is the FBI thread investigating GZ for profiling TM for what could be considered a hate crime. There is no doubt they've established the profiling part because that is clear by the description GZ gives the dispatcher on the tape and in particular making comments to make TM sound more suspicious...something's in his hands (a bag from 7-11), his hand in his waistband (ironically this is where GZ had his gun so what was GZ suggesting), etc. Clearly in GZ's mind he was absolutely sure this kid was a criminal. That is the definition of profiling when you have no reason to believe there was any crime happening at the time, before or after. GZ had "zero" evidence there was a crime, "zero" and even less that one was about to happen. jmo
No, believing somene to be a criminal is NOT the definition of "profiling" You have to have come to that conclusion BECAUSE of race or ethnicity. You have to
have had NO other reasonable explanation.
GZ had an excellent reason. How unfair to ignore it.
CRIME is a much bigger deal to just about everybody. People are sick of calling the police and having them arrve late. In order to sell this racial theory, people have to ignore the crime that set the stage in the neighborhood.
If crime statistics show even just a "teen crime" problem, then this Neighborhood Watch Captain had an excellent other reason. And only one other person on the jury needs to identify with the weariness of constant crime and this emphasis on making this racial will backfire.
And the chance to make this about SYG instead of race will have been wasted. Because people will stop listening.
Maxim
05-22-2012, 10:39 AM
Okay, to be a little more clear:
GZ first profiled Trayvon Martin.
No, the dispatcher asked GZ to profile.
GZ then followed Trayvon Martin.
GZ could "follow" if he didn't see, know where TM went. TM ran out of sight.
GZ at some point confronted Trayvon Martin.
Not proven, no one saw this.
GZ assaulted Trayvon Martin.
Not proven, no one saw this.
GZ killed Trayvon Martin during the process of said assault.
Yes, GZ shot TM, but there is evidence TM was assaulting GZ.
All moo
All mine are moo2
HiHater
05-22-2012, 10:41 AM
Where, which are inaccurate? Many of us heard or read the above.
Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck ... It's the Profiling Duck!
For starters, the picture that was widely circulated in the beginning is from 2010. That would make Trayvon 14 or 15 and not 12. That's your perception of the pic, but it does not make it accurate. The media/race baiters did not allude to GZ being white on a whim--the police report contained that information. I have not heard Zimmerman is black until just now when you posted it. ROFL. At this point, he has changed colors more than Michael Jackson...that I agree with. He is white and his mother is Peruvian. Black is not in that equation, and white is not out of it. Certain groups of people are not immune from being racist though. So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves.
Cant remember what else I was going to type...yikes!
Elley Mae
05-22-2012, 10:43 AM
Okay, to be a little more clear:
GZ first profiled Trayvon Martin.
GZ then followed Trayvon Martin.
GZ at some point confronted Trayvon Martin.
GZ assaulted Trayvon Martin.
GZ killed Trayvon Martin during the process of said assault.
All moo
bbm, Did GZ profile first or did TM profile first? iirc the g/f said TM told her a white man was following him. jmo
HiHater
05-22-2012, 10:43 AM
No, the dispatcher asked GZ to profile.
GZ could "follow" if he didn't see, know where TM went. TM ran out of sight.
Not proven, no one saw this.
Not proven, no one saw this.
Yes, GZ shot TM, but there is evidence TM was assaulting GZ.
All mine are moo2
Sooooo...the dispatcher actually called GZ, on GZs phone? Otherwise, GZ started the profiling on his own, profiling is what made him call the police.
HiHater
05-22-2012, 10:45 AM
bbm, Did GZ profile first or did TM profile first? iirc the g/f said TM told her a white man was following him. jmo
This is just not a logical question at all. In order for Trayvon to say a white man is following him, the white man would have had to have started following him. The white man, we know, was following because he had already profiled Trayvon. As I see it, GZ was aware of Trayvon before Trayvon was aware of him.
??
Lovelymountains
05-22-2012, 10:50 AM
We are now comparing FBI highly educated and trained profilers to a street-level wanna be cop who barely had an associate's degree?
(descriptions are MOO)
Yes, and IMO the street-level, etc. person would be much more likely to profile and violate the law and in this instance a civil rights protective law than would a highly educated and trained FBI profiler.
If Trayvon Martin had been white (And I see white teens wearing those pants on the floor, etc. clothing all the time) I don't think that GZ would have looked at him twice. IMO GZ followed and killed TM specifically because he was a black teenager in a place where GZ, the high and mighty, did not allow him to be. Taking one's life is not a minor act and not one which should "Blow over." It is one which should be investigated and the perpetrator should be arrested, tried and convicted if it should prove that the death was not justified and in this case I cannot agree that it was.
I don't know how many, if any, of our posters are AA, but if there are some, I am willing to bet that they would say that they have not ever in their entire lives had a day when someone did not try to belittle them, descriminate against them, or ignore that they even existed at least once. And I think that if we were willing to face the truth, this cannot be denied.
Yes, IMO, GZ violated TM's civil rights. TM had a right to peacefully walk down a sidewalk in a communtiy in which he was a guest and not be murdered simply because a person who had a history of violence and illegal acts and was armed with a revolver decided to take it upon himself to teach the intruder a lesson. And in doing that, he took away the future for TM and destroyed the future for his family. And if there is any justice in this world, GZ will have some time in his future to think over his actions while in prison. But at least, GZ has a future.
It is reported, although the truth of it has not been established, that TM once had a screwdriver in his school bag and many jumped to the conclusion that TM either had, or intended to use that screwdriver as a burglary tool. OK. I contend that George Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and shadowed TM with the INTENT of apprehending him and detaining him until LE arrived. His plans went awry in a most horrible way. Burglary and murder are two different things entirely and the intent to do either is illegal.
Res IPSA Loquitur
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 10:53 AM
This is just not a logical question at all. In order for Trayvon to say a white man is following him, the white man would have had to have started following him. The white man, we know, was following because he had already profiled Trayvon. As I see it, GZ was aware of Trayvon before Trayvon was aware of him.
??
But WHY did he have to say he was "WHITE?" If I use the some thinking on some posts and reverse it.....it is because TM hates WHITES. WE could then say THAT is why TM attacked GZ....because he hated whites. We could say he thought ALL whites were "weird." We could make TM a racist too. Holler than he would have reacted differently to a BLACK Watch Captain! OMG...WHY would TM profile GZ as "WHITE?"
Silly, right.
That is what others say here in reverse with no better proof. This should NOT be about race. And both TM and GZ were "describing" what they saw.
Maxim
05-22-2012, 10:58 AM
For starters, the picture that was widely circulated in the beginning is from 2010. That would make Trayvon 14 or 15 and not 12. That's your perception of the pic, but it does not make it accurate. The media/race baiters did not allude to GZ being white on a whim--the police report contained that information. I have not heard Zimmerman is black until just now when you posted it. ROFL. At this point, he has changed colors more than Michael Jackson...that I agree with. He is white and his mother is Peruvian. Black is not in that equation, and white is not out of it. Certain groups of people are not immune from being racist though. So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves.
Cant remember what else I was going to type...yikes!
BBM
IIRC, his grandfather was black. Yes, agreed. "So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves."
LOL, take your time. We've hashed and rehashed so much and it will be months before a trial.
HiHater
05-22-2012, 11:01 AM
For starters, the picture that was widely circulated in the beginning is from 2010. That would make Trayvon 14 or 15 and not 12. That's your perception of the pic, but it does not make it accurate. The media/race baiters did not allude to GZ being white on a whim--the police report contained that information. I have not heard Zimmerman is black until just now when you posted it. ROFL. At this point, he has changed colors more than Michael Jackson...that I agree with. He is white and his mother is Peruvian. Black is not in that equation, and white is not out of it. Certain groups of people are not immune from being racist though. So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves.
Cant remember what else I was going to type...yikes!
BBM
IIRC, his grandfather was black. Yes, agreed. "So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves."
LOL, take your time. We've hashed and rehashed so much and it will be months before a trial.
Wait, I think you mean his great-grandfather, and we don't even know that GZ ever met or knew the man. One can be hispanic and be racist. Biracial and be racist. Asian and racist. Black and racist. etc etc
The idea that a young, black male is dead in large part because he was a young, black male is terrifying to me. I don't know if a hate crime is warranted in this case, but what GZ did was not okay on many different levels. It's okay to be suspicious of people, but following-confronting-killing them? Where is the line drawn?
TM is dead because he attacked an armed man, not because of the color of his skin.
JMO, OMO, and MOO
LambChop
05-22-2012, 11:05 AM
bbm, Did GZ profile first or did TM profile first? iirc the g/f said TM told her a white man was following him. jmo
GZ was already on the phone with the dispatcher when he started to follow TM. Profiling is when you profile a person as a criminal when they have done nothing wrong. If TM was fearful and he told his gf he was he could have been profiling because he felt GZ meant to do him harm. In that case TM had every right to stand his ground when GZ caught up with him....did he not? jmo
LynnM
05-22-2012, 11:05 AM
bbm, Did GZ profile first or did TM profile first? iirc the g/f said TM told her a white man was following him. jmo
In what way is that profiling? TM made an objective statement of fact. Zimmerman was in fact following him. As for being white, he is white. The police report said so, he looks white to me, he is not black. He is half Hispanic abut Hispanic is not a racial group no matter what anyone wants to say.
Maxim
05-22-2012, 11:06 AM
Sooooo...the dispatcher actually called GZ, on GZs phone? Otherwise, GZ started the profiling on his own, profiling is what made him call the police.
noooo, GZ called the dispatcher but didn't mention race in the initial description and was asked white, black, hispanic. If you are saying that every call to dispatchers is profiling, I don't understand how that could be true. Would you expand on that? TIA
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 11:07 AM
I wonder if others who have BLACK< WHITE< BROWN< YELLOW friends and even, family...are as sick of having RACE inserted into everything...including our Government playing the Race Card with this threat before GZ has even had his first trial?
And to those who see CRIME as influencing GZ more than RACE...it both chilling and deeply offensive.
stmarysmead
05-22-2012, 11:10 AM
In what way is that profiling? TM made an objective statement of fact. Zimmerman was in fact following him. As for being white, he is white. The police report said so, he looks white to me, he is not black. He is half Hispanic abut Hispanic is not a racial group no matter what anyone wants to say.
Bingo! And , only when asked...GZ "I think he is Black." Was GZ even sure of his race? Interesting.
Neither is profiling and GZ should face NO hate charges since his words were no more than TM's words.
suzihawk
05-22-2012, 11:10 AM
BBM
IIRC, his grandfather was black. Yes, agreed. "So regardless of his heritage, his actions will speak for themselves."
LOL, take your time. We've hashed and rehashed so much and it will be months before a trial.
It was GZs GREAT grandfather who was black - allegedly.
Maxim
05-22-2012, 11:11 AM
bbm, Did GZ profile first or did TM profile first? iirc the g/f said TM told her a white man was following him. jmo
Interesting aspect. We haven't explored that possibility. The FBI might not look at that aspect.
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