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beach
05-16-2012, 01:54 AM
Several MSM sources have reported results from Trayvon's autopsy report. See Media Links thread.

The docs have not yet been released to the public.

Discuss here. Civilly and respectfully.

Sherbie
05-16-2012, 03:09 AM
I believe the law is that the state can't disclose discovery to the public before the defense gets it. Now that the defense has it, I'm not sure how big a deal it is that someone leaked autopsy details. It's a basic factual document that everyone knows won't be redacted/withheld from the public. Could have been leaked by anyone who has had access to it - from the offices of the ME, police, prosecutor, defense, families/friends on either side.

If the witness information that everyone knows is going to be subject to a court ruling on disclosure starts being leaked, then I'd be concerned.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:44 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, ABC-TV news reported Tuesday night.

ABC said it had obtained a medical report that documents Zimmerman's injuries.

In the report, a doctor wrote that Zimmerman became nauseated when he thought about the violence that had occurred Feb. 26 near his home in Sanford and it was "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist."

Also Tuesday, WFTV-Channel 9 reported that an autopsy shows Trayvon had broken skin on his knuckles.

***BBM-I find it odd the funeral director saw no injuries to TM's hands.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:55 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/15/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman_n_1518562.html?ref=black-voices&icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=161188

suzihawk
05-16-2012, 10:01 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, ABC-TV news reported Tuesday night.

ABC said it had obtained a medical report that documents Zimmerman's injuries.

In the report, a doctor wrote that Zimmerman became nauseated when he thought about the violence that had occurred Feb. 26 near his home in Sanford and it was "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist."

Also Tuesday, WFTV-Channel 9 reported that an autopsy shows Trayvon had broken skin on his knuckles.

***BBM-I find it odd the funeral director saw no injuries to TM's hands.

Since this is the 'news leaks' thread, who do you think leaked this information to the press?

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:06 AM
BBM


That is what concerns me. Between the drugs he was taking and it being "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist", that leads me to believe GZ had some serious issues before this.

And as for who leaked....MOM. I think everything that looks good for GZ will be leaked before we get the rest.

From what I understand, it was imperative that GZ speak to his psychologist because the thought of what happened that night made him nauseas.
That's how I read it anyway.

I'm sure when something like that happens, there is a HUGE emotional toll on a person. I think it was a good recomendation.

JMO

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:06 AM
Since this is the 'news leaks' thread, who do you think leaked this information to the press?

I have no idea. And it doesn't matter to me.

It's information.
It's part of the discovery.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:10 AM
The funeral director came out with the "no injuries to TM's hands" a long time back.

That has been a major talking point when discussing this case.
It just couldn't be self defense because TM didn't even have injuries to his hands.

Well, HE DID. And that information was wrong.

IMO it does no matter who "leaked" the info. It NEEDED to be said.
The wrong info has been out for way too long.

Little things like a statement from a funeral director shifts public opinion so highly in this case. It is taken as gospel.

I'm just glad the info is out. No matter who leaked it.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:25 AM
I would like to see someone interview the funeral director again.
I'd like to hear what he has to say to defend his comments to NG about TM's lack of injuries to his hands.

How could he have missed it?
He came out and said it matter of factly that there were no injuries to TM's hands.

How can that be?

iluvmua
05-16-2012, 10:28 AM
I would like to see someone interview the funeral director again.
I'd like to hear what he has to say to defend his comments to NG about TM's lack of injuries to his hands.

How could he have missed it?
He came out and said it matter of factly that there were no injuries to TM's hands.

How can that be?

Maybe Crump told him to lie? JMO.

I also think the Martin Family is going to be very sorry they hired him once this is all over with.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:30 AM
But he had to know the truth would come out in the autopsy right?
I just don't get it.

ETA: Maybe he was just looking to get his 15 minutes of "fame"?

There has to be a reason behind the misinformation.

iluvmua
05-16-2012, 10:36 AM
But he had to know the truth would come out in the autopsy right?
I just don't get it.

ETA: Maybe he was just looking to get his 15 minutes of "fame"?

There has to be a reason behind the misinformation.

Crump? I don't trust the guy and neither should the Martin Family.

unfortunately, IMO, He is probably giving them false hope about this case.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 10:37 AM
But he had to know the truth would come out in the autopsy right?
I just don't get it.

ETA: Maybe he was just looking to get his 15 minutes of "fame"?

There has to be a reason behind the misinformation.

Do you have a link to this autopsy report?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 10:39 AM
How does a likely broken nose turn into a broken nose with no further evidence?

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:39 AM
Do you have a link to this autopsy report?

Nope. This thread is about the leaked info from the autopsy report.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, ABC-TV news reported Tuesday night.

ABC said it had obtained a medical report that documents Zimmerman's injuries.

In the report, a doctor wrote that Zimmerman became nauseated when he thought about the violence that had occurred Feb. 26 near his home in Sanford and it was "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist."

Also Tuesday, WFTV-Channel 9 reported that an autopsy shows Trayvon had broken skin on his knuckles.

***BBM-I find it odd the funeral director saw no injuries to TM's hands.

iluvmua
05-16-2012, 10:39 AM
I don't think anybody knows who leaked the autopsy report do we?

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:41 AM
How does a likely broken nose turn into a broken nose with no further evidence?

I don't understand your question.

The medical report shows he had a broken nose according to ABC.

oh_gal
05-16-2012, 10:42 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, ABC-TV news reported Tuesday night.

ABC said it had obtained a medical report that documents Zimmerman's injuries.

In the report, a doctor wrote that Zimmerman became nauseated when he thought about the violence that had occurred Feb. 26 near his home in Sanford and it was "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist."

Also Tuesday, WFTV-Channel 9 reported that an autopsy shows Trayvon had broken skin on his knuckles.

***BBM-I find it odd the funeral director saw no injuries to TM's hands.


(above underline mine)
I don't -- especially if the funeral director was pro-TM.

Melanie
05-16-2012, 10:45 AM
This is rather disturbing (well, the entire case is actually).

He did not see evidence that Martin had been fighting anyone before he was shot, funeral director says

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-funeral-director-speaks

vs.

Autopsy results show Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles


WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

If I had to guess, I am going to assume the autopsy report is correct, with backup photos to indicate the injury. I have no reason to believe the Funeral Director and feel he (maybe) misled the public by stating that Trayvon didn't have any injuries.

So why did the Funeral Director lie? Or did he really not see broken skin on his knuckles.

Maybe we'll see him back on Nancy Grace in the coming days.

MOO

Mel

Elley Mae
05-16-2012, 10:48 AM
I see some say that TM should not have injuries to his hands from hitting GZ in the face. Just some info on that from a boxing perspective.

Boxing glove - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Modern boxing gloves were developed to protect the hands of the striker during a bout

Impact of gloves on safety and injuries

The impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Hitting to the head was less common in the bare-knuckle era because of the risk of hurting the boxer's hand. Gloves reduce the amount of cuts caused,

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 10:50 AM
Could some of the leaking information be a sympathy move by the defense? Potential jurors would be hearing this information.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 10:50 AM
Well dang I thought this was about all the leaked news. LOL I misread something.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Well dang I thought this was about all the leaked news. LOL I misread something.

I'm so confused......now there's two of these threads. :floorlaugh:

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Hopefully Trayvon's family has already received the autopsy report and are aware of any injuries other then the gsw that took his life. It would be excruciatingly painful to get this information via a media leak.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:54 AM
ITA....but my point was that he had a psychologist BEFORE any of this happened. Which to me says he had issues already.

Many people do.
That does not mean they do not have the right to defend themselves, if in fact what GZ is claiming is the truth.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:55 AM
Could some of the leaking information be a sympathy move by the defense? Potential jurors would be hearing this information.

Well the potential jurors have heard for months now that there was no injuries to TM's hands.

At least now they have the correct information.

JMO

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 10:56 AM
BBM


That is what concerns me. Between the drugs he was taking and it being "imperative that Zimmerman speak with his psychologist", that leads me to believe GZ had some serious issues before this.

And as for who leaked....MOM. I think everything that looks good for GZ will be leaked before we get the rest.

My husband and I met with our financial planner recently. He said, "It is imperative that you visit with your lawyer about your will."

Um...

We don't have a lawyer.

It is possible that the physician told him to speak to 'his psychologist,' but that GZ didn't actually have one.

A psychologist would not have, in all likelihood, have been credentialed to prescribe the ADD meds GZ took.

For all we know, the Dr. and GZ attend the same church and they have a counselor / psychologist on staff that was known to both of them.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:56 AM
I'm so confused......now there's two of these threads. :floorlaugh:

One for TM's injuries.
One for GZ's injuries.

beach
05-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Guys, here is the thread to discuss George Zimmerman's injuries. TIA for your help in keeping these discussions on topic.


George Zimmerman's injuries, per the leaked reports.

beach
05-16-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm so confused......now there's two of these threads. :floorlaugh:

One of them is for discussion of Trayvon's injuries.

The other one is for discussion of George Zimmerman's injuries.


Just regular old topical threads. lol

beach
05-16-2012, 11:04 AM
Well dang I thought this was about all the leaked news. LOL I misread something.

No, you didn't misread, Doc. I just edited the thread title and separated them so we could keep the 2 discussions from getting jumbled up.

oh_gal
05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
ITA....but my point was that he had a psychologist BEFORE any of this happened. Which to me says he had issues already.

Respectfully, cause I really like you, teh, but show me someone who claims to have no issues, and I'll show you a liar.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
rut roh........clean up on isle 3. My post on this thread are ot....deleting. Kimberly, help me out and delete yours that quote me?

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 11:08 AM
Respectfully, cause I really like you, teh, but show me someone who claims to have no issues, and I'll show you a liar.


True dat..........true dat.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm sorry. I didn't touch on any of that, only that he seemed to have issues before hand and that concerned me.

My point is, what concerns you IF (because we don't know for sure) GZ had one before?

Many people have shrinks.
Many totally sane, productive citizens have them.

I'm not getting the concern. That's my question.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 11:10 AM
rut roh........clean up on isle 3. My post on this thread are ot....deleting. Kimberly, help me out and delete yours that quote me?

I'll try but it normally does not work on Tapatalk.

beach
05-16-2012, 11:19 AM
Don't worry about the clean up you guys! I'll take care of it but really, it is okay. We didn't get too far down the road so no biggie! :blowkiss:

Reality Orlando
05-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Just because someone goes to a psychologist doesn't necessarily mean there is something "wrong" with them. I hate to think we assign negativity to people reaching out for help with any of a number of life experiences. The fact that he was receiving counseling if he felt he needed it says a whole lot more positive to me than negative. Just my :twocents:

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Well the potential jurors have heard for months now that there was no injuries to TM's hands.

At least now they have the correct information.

JMO

Are these macroscopic or microscopic injuries to his knuckles? Were they recent or old ones?

K_Z
05-16-2012, 01:04 PM
We will soon have the actual AR, I hope!

Does anyone know if TM was right or left handed? Because recent fresh damage to knuckles on his DOMINANT hand are more pertinent to a discussion of whether or not he punched GZ with that hand. People reacting impulsively with a punch rarely do so with their non-dominant hand.

And has been said by a few others, the words of the legal AR conducted by an ME will carry much more weight than the words of a funeral home director.

Steft50
05-16-2012, 01:21 PM
Can someone clear this up for me please?

1. Trayvons autopsy report has NOT been released - true or faise?

2. What is being discussed here as fact by some is really just rumor based on information alledgedly "leaked" about what is in the autopsy report that has not been released - true of false?

I'm confused and would like to make a decision or form an opinion on what is factually on the report, not what is rumored to be on it.

elementary
05-16-2012, 01:32 PM
Can someone clear this up for me please?

1. Trayvons autopsy report has NOT been released - true or faise?

2. What is being discussed here as fact by some is really just rumor based on information alledgedly "leaked" about what is in the autopsy report that has not been released - true of false?

I'm confused and would like to make a decision or form an opinion on what is factually on the report, not what is rumored to be on it.

You make a good point. I am going to wait for the authentic facts. All else is so much noise, IMO. Because this case is so divisive and inflammatory, unless the evidence is the real, authoritative deal, IMO, we are dealing with fantasyland.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 01:35 PM
Can someone clear this up for me please?

1. Trayvons autopsy report has NOT been released - true or faise?

2. What is being discussed here as fact by some is really just rumor based on information alledgedly "leaked" about what is in the autopsy report that has not been released - true of false?

I'm confused and would like to make a decision or form an opinion on what is factually on the report, not what is rumored to be on it.

As the title of this thread says parts of the autopsy have been leaked. I haven't seen anything to suggest that what has been leaked is incorrect. HTH.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

Steft50
05-16-2012, 01:41 PM
As the title of this thread says parts of the autopsy have been leaked. I haven't seen anything to suggest that what has been leaked is incorrect. HTH.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

BBM

And I didn't say that the information is incorrect, only that until the actual document has been released it is nothing more than rumor based on a document that has supposedly been leaked.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 01:45 PM
BBM

And I didn't say that the information is incorrect, only that until the actual document has been released it is nothing more than rumor based on a document that has supposedly been leaked.

I don't think that threads based on rumors are allowed here. JMO.

tlcya
05-16-2012, 01:45 PM
I would have been shocked to discover no evidence or injury to TM's knuckles or hands.

Regardless of where you fall in the theorizing about whether TM or GZ was the agressor, it is clear from multiple witness testimony and from the injuries sustained by GZ that some sort of physical confrontation took place.

These injuries simply support the truth of the SCUFFLE but do nothing as far as I can see to prove or disprove who initiated the scuffle itself.

:moo: :cow:

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 02:08 PM
Can someone clear this up for me please?

1. Trayvons autopsy report has NOT been released - true or faise?

2. What is being discussed here as fact by some is really just rumor based on information alledgedly "leaked" about what is in the autopsy report that has not been released - true of false?

I'm confused and would like to make a decision or form an opinion on what is factually on the report, not what is rumored to be on it.

An unnamed reporter has claimed WFTV knows what is on the autopsy report. That is all.

They don't just not name the source, they don't name the reporter of the story. LOL LOL:floorlaugh:

LambChop
05-16-2012, 02:27 PM
An unnamed reporter has claimed WFTV knows what is on the autopsy report. That is all.

They don't just not name the source, they don't name the reporter of the story. LOL LOL:floorlaugh:

So the day this information is turned over to defense there's a leak about the autopsy report that appears favorable to GZ. And no one admits doing it? Amazing. jmo

Steft50
05-16-2012, 02:28 PM
I don't think that threads based on rumors are allowed here. JMO.

I'm sorry, the link you posted doesn't have a copy of the autopsy document. The tv station posted this report with no reporter listed, with no name or even organization listed as to who they "confirmed" this information with. It is by the very definition of the word....rumor.

BBM and from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rumor?show=0&t=1337192565



1

: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source


2

: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

3

archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event


4

: a soft low indistinct sound : murmur


I understand that the word "leaked" is in the topic title...however until there is documentation it's just rumor. If there is another source that has the documentation please link it. Again, I want to form opinion and decisions based on the facts....not on supposedly "leaked" information. And yeah, this goes for both sides.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 02:34 PM
I'm sorry, the link you posted doesn't have a copy of the autopsy document. The tv station posted this report with no reporter listed, with no name or even organization listed as to who they "confirmed" this information with. It is by the very definition of the word....rumor.

BBM and from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rumor?show=0&t=1337192565



1

: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source


2

: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

3

archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event


4

: a soft low indistinct sound : murmur


I understand that the word "leaked" is in the topic title...however until there is documentation it's just rumor. If there is another source that has the documentation please link it. Again, I want to form opinion and decisions based on the facts....not on supposedly "leaked" information. And yeah, this goes for both sides.

You can believe that this thread is based on a rumor if you like. I disagree.

tlcya
05-16-2012, 02:36 PM
So how does this differ from the medical records that have been "leaked" regarding GZ's injuries over on the other thread?

Both threads seem to contain info that has been labelled as "leaked" both may or may not be accurate or complete.

The kerfluffle is about what exactly? Not trying to be purposely obtuse but I am confused why this thread is debating whether it is or is not okay to discuss this "leaked" info but the GZ injury thread it seems not to be an issue right now?

I should mention that I have not been here daily lately on the Trayvon case thread but have been lurking and following news.

MOO: both topics warrant discussion so long as we are clear that we are debating and discussing alleged leaked info which may or may not be accurate or complete. So long as no one is espousing info as FACT I don't get the problem.

beach
05-16-2012, 02:45 PM
Breaking News!

Steven Powell found GUILTY on 14 counts! (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171606&page=3)

Steft50
05-16-2012, 02:48 PM
So how does this differ from the medical records that have been "leaked" regarding GZ's injuries over on the other thread?

Both threads seem to contain info that has been labelled as "leaked" both may or may not be accurate or complete.

The kerfluffle is about what exactly? Not trying to be purposely obtuse but I am confused why this thread is debating whether it is or is not okay to discuss this "leaked" info but the GZ injury thread it seems not to be an issue right now?

I should mention that I have not been here daily lately on the Trayvon case thread but have been lurking and following news.

MOO: both topics warrant discussion so long as we are clear that we are debating and discussing alleged leaked info which may or may not be accurate or complete. So long as no one is espousing info as FACT I don't get the problem.

For me the difference is available documentation to verify the information being "leaked". GZ's medical report was leaked, the actual paper document. With the alledged leak of autopsy information there is nothing. No paperwork, no document, no source, no confirmation source....simply nothing but what an un-named reporter posted on a news website with no verification from anyone or any agency.

It could very well be true, I'd be surprised if it wasn't given there was an altercation, but until that document has been released or shown it's rumor by the very definition of the word.

i.b.nora
05-16-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't think KFTV has actually seen the autopsy report. I think KFTV was told by O'Mara what he wanted them to know and what he wanted them to release about the report.

"WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles."

That's it. Everything else is conjecture at this point. IMO.

The only original source for this information so far:
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 02:51 PM
I don't think KFTV has actually seen the autopsy report. I think they were told by O'Mara what he wanted to release about it.

"WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles."

That's it. Everything else is conjecture at this point. IMO.

The medial examiner finding broken skin on his knuckles sounds a lot more accurate than a funeral director saying his knuckles were fine.

The director seemed a little hinky to me from the start.

I don't know why he even went to the media with the information.

JMO

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 02:55 PM
But he had to know the truth would come out in the autopsy right?
I just don't get it.

ETA: Maybe he was just looking to get his 15 minutes of "fame"?

There has to be a reason behind the misinformation.

We won't know the 'truth' until we see the autopsy report. I won't depend on a media leak for this information.

beach
05-16-2012, 03:09 PM
MOO: both topics warrant discussion so long as we are clear that we are debating and discussing alleged leaked info which may or may not be accurate or complete. So long as no one is espousing info as FACT I don't get the problem.

Respectfully snipped

EXACTLY.


The title of this thread is perfectly CLEAR: Trayvon's Injuries, per the leaked autopsy report.


Cut out the pettiness. If you aren't interested in discussing TM's injuries released per the MSM reports, this obviously is not a thread that would interest you. That is perfectly fine.

Be respectful of those who are interested in this discussison and find another topical thread where the subject matter piques your interest.

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 03:40 PM
Nope. This thread is about the leaked info from the autopsy report.

ABC seems very involved in this case. I wonder how much, if anything, they paid for this leaked information. Ka-ching.

Steft50
05-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Respectfully snipped

EXACTLY.


The title of this thread is perfectly CLEAR: Trayvon's Injuries, per the leaked autopsy report.


Cut out the pettiness. If you aren't interested in discussing TM's injuries released per the MSM reports, this obviously is not a thread that would interest you. That is perfectly fine.

Be respectful of those who are interested in this discussison and find another topical thread where the subject matter piques your interest.

With all due respect, please please, link the leaked autopsy report please!! That is all I have asked for. The one link that I am seeing in this thread does not seem to have the report on it. This is a topic I would like to discuss, but would only like to discuss what is in the autopsy report (even if it had been leaked we'd have the actual report to discuss), not what is being passed off as leaked information with nothing, including no actual autopsy report or verifiable source to back that information up.

vlpate
05-16-2012, 04:59 PM
The medial examiner finding broken skin on his knuckles sounds a lot more accurate than a funeral director saying his knuckles were fine.

The director seemed a little hinky to me from the start.

I don't know why he even went to the media with the information.

JMO

What's worse, is NG asked him about his hands, specifically about his knuckles, right off the bat.
Nancy Grace and Funeral Director Kurtz (http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-funeral-director-speaks)

"Richard Kurtz, of Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home, said he only saw a gunshot wound on the upper left side of Trayvon’s chest.

“I did not see any signs or evidence of him getting into a fight or scuffle,” Kurtz said. “His hands and knuckles looked very normal.’’
LINK (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-draws-global-attention-2274449.html?printArticle=y)

beach
05-16-2012, 05:09 PM
With all due respect, please please, link the leaked autopsy report please!! That is all I have asked for. The one link that I am seeing in this thread does not seem to have the report on it. This is a topic I would like to discuss, but would only like to discuss what is in the autopsy report (even if it had been leaked we'd have the actual report to discuss), not what is being passed off as leaked information with nothing, including no actual autopsy report or verifiable source to back that information up.

You probably won't be interested in this thread then because the official autopsy report has not been released to the public yet. Hopefully any day now. I imagine it will be one of the first docs released since there is virtually nothing that needs to be redacted (witness names, identifying info, etc...)

This thread was opened for those who would like to discuss the leaks reported via the MSM articles that have been posted. You can find all those links in the Media sticky thread.

believe09
05-16-2012, 05:59 PM
OK, so according to the WFTV report Trayvon's only injuries were a gunshot wound and abraded knuckles.

No bruises or cut downs from resussitation efforts...no cracked ribs, nothing?

Huh. Interesting.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 07:13 PM
ONE abrasion below the knuckle on ring finger 1/4 inch long.....gun fired from "intermedite" range.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 07:16 PM
One abrasion does not sound to be like he was beating GZ up.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 07:22 PM
ONE abrasion below the knuckle on ring finger 1/4 inch long.....gun fired from "intermedite" range.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

I wonder what "intermediate range" means in actual distance?

Concerned Papa
05-16-2012, 07:23 PM
ONE abrasion below the knuckle on ring finger 1/4 inch long.....gun fired from "intermedite" range.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

INTERMEDIATE range?

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 07:26 PM
INTERMEDIATE range?

That made me ill........that may be the smoking gun. Pun intended.

Concerned Papa
05-16-2012, 07:30 PM
I wonder what "intermediate range" means in actual distance?

IDK, but it doesn't sound like a range characterization applying to a shot fired by someone on their back into the chest of someone sitting on them bashing their head against a sidewalk.

Gunshot wounds can be classified based on the range from the muzzle of the gun to the target. These classifications include contact, near-contact, intermediate, and distant wounds.

http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/

Concerned Papa
05-16-2012, 07:34 PM
I KNEW that gunshot was fired from a distance other than contact. It sounded too loud. That's why I did this little sound comparison vid a while back.

Kel Tec PF9 Shot Sound Comparison - YouTube

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 07:34 PM
One 1/4 inch long abrasion? Seriously? This is the evidence that TM was beating GZ within an inch of paralysis?

ETA: Heck, TM could have gotten that when he fell to the ground. Remember his hands were under him.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 07:35 PM
One abrasion does not sound to be like he was beating GZ up.

I made this mark which is 1/4 inch long on my son in-laws ring finger.

So that is the proof that George Zimmerman feared for his life and was getting a horrible beating by Martin.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/Picture1085.jpg

LambChop
05-16-2012, 07:37 PM
IDK, but it doesn't sound like a range characterization applying to a shot fired by someone on their back into the chest of someone sitting on them bashing their head against a sidewalk.

So TM could have been trying to get up and get away and that is why he was found face down???

elementary
05-16-2012, 07:39 PM
IDK, but it doesn't sound like a range characterization applying to a shot fired by someone on their back into the chest of someone sitting on them bashing their head against a sidewalk.

I'm guessing that the analysis of gunshot residue might clarify things, while "intermediate" range sounds pretty vague. "Close" range doesn't sound so vague in comparison. Yep, if this leak is true, then it raises some questions. I would guess that an estimate of the range in terms of inches and feet would be included in the report, so am scratching my head as to why it isn't being reported.

whiteangora
05-16-2012, 07:39 PM
One 1/4 inch long abrasion? Seriously? This is the evidence that TM was beating GZ within an inch of paralysis?

ETA: Heck, TM could have gotten that when he fell to the ground. Remember his hands were under him.

Not to mention that the abrasion on Trayvon's finger could have been there before his deadly encounter with the shooter.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 07:40 PM
INTERMEDIATE range? My guess is arms length.

octobermoon
05-16-2012, 07:43 PM
So TM could have been trying to get up and get away and that is why he was found face down???

I think so. :(

Aedrys
05-16-2012, 07:44 PM
In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound: Contact wound - The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range - The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate Range - The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and Distant - The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting. In the case of a fatal shooting it is often debated whether it was murder or suicide.

http://www.forensic-medecine.info/marks-of-violence.html

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 07:44 PM
They don't even call it a cut, just an abrasion/scratch.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 07:45 PM
So 8 inches to 3.5 feet......hmmmm. I see a story crumbling.

elementary
05-16-2012, 07:46 PM
I made this mark which is 1/4 inch long on my son in-laws ring finger.

So that is the proof that George Zimmerman feared for his life and was getting a horrible beating by Martin.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/Picture1085.jpg

Oh, geez. if this is true, I'm actually shocked. That kind of abrasion could have come from anywhere. Anywhere in the past or present. No bruises? An abrasion is a scrape. So how the heck did he break GZ's nose?

Aedrys
05-16-2012, 07:47 PM
They don't even call it a cut, just an abrasion/scratch.

I would think his injuries would be way more severe if he was beating GZ and banging his head into the ground. Only one abrasion doesn't sound like a beating getting GZ close to diapers to me.

And the intermediate range - TM was not as close as GZ said he was. I bet he was over eight inches away, and that's why he was face down. He was trying to get away.

GZ's story is blown out of the water, IMO.

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 07:51 PM
They don't even call it a cut, just an abrasion/scratch.


The first report I read said "broken skin" then all of a sudden broken skin became "injuries."

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 07:52 PM
So 8 inches to 3.5 feet......hmmmm. I see a story crumbling.

From the little I know about gunshot wounds, the stippling around the wound should be able to narrow the range greatly.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 07:57 PM
From the little I know about gunshot wounds, the stippling around the wound should be able to narrow the range greatly.

Stippling on the actually body just narrows it down to 8" to 3.5 feet. What will really narrow it down is the gun powder residue on the hoodie.

They would have taken the same bullets and load Zimmerman was shooting and shot a hoodie with it from different distances till they get the same pattern.

Aedrys
05-16-2012, 08:00 PM
Stippling on the actually body just narrows it down to 8" to 3.5 feet. What will really narrow it down is the gun powder residue on the hoodie.

They would have taken the same bullets and load Zimmerman was shooting and shot a hoodie with it from different distances till they get the same pattern.

And that report is one I cannot wait for!!!!!

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 08:03 PM
I sure hope the judge see's what a joke is being made of the sunshine laws and turns all this stuff loose.

saguaro
05-16-2012, 08:03 PM
ONE abrasion below the knuckle on ring finger 1/4 inch long.....gun fired from "intermedite" range.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

I don't find msnbc very credible when it comes to this case after their selective editing.

imo!

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 08:07 PM
I don't find msnbc very credible when it comes to this case after their selective editing.

imo!

I think after their last lesson.......they will be extra careful to get it right this time.

Concerned Papa
05-16-2012, 08:09 PM
The first report I read said "broken skin" then all of a sudden broken skin became "injuries."

Odd the term "broken skin" being used to describe his finger. Go to the link below and read about a common problem with the slide mechanism on the small Kel Tec PF9 :

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGunHand.jpg

http://mouseguns.com/pf9rev/pf9rev.htm

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 08:11 PM
So I guess it should now be clear to all who were wondering why the funeral director said he didn't see any injuries to TM's hands.

Anyone could overlook a 1/4 inch long abrasion.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 08:11 PM
So that "abrasion" might not have looked as if he had been in a fight which means the funeral director was right?

RANCH
05-16-2012, 08:15 PM
Stippling on the actually body just narrows it down to 8" to 3.5 feet. What will really narrow it down is the gun powder residue on the hoodie.

They would have taken the same bullets and load Zimmerman was shooting and shot a hoodie with it from different distances till they get the same pattern.

From what I watched and have heard I don't think any witness saw the shooting. John who saw them on the ground left and when he looked out the window after the shot he saw Trayvon on the ground and Zimmerman walking around. That means he even missed George sitting on Trayvon after the shooting.

The detective said there was stippling on Martin so that would mean he was shot from 6 inches away up to 30 inches away or about an arms length. Test on the powder burns on the hoodie compared to the loads Zimmerman was using should tell the distance.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm

Intermediate: 6-30" Stippling

From this post of yours intermediate is 6-30" with stippling. Close is 6" or under with stippling and fouling. Distant is 30" or over with neither.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 08:20 PM
From this post of yours intermediate is 6-30" with stippling. Close is 6" or under with stippling and fouling. Distant is 30" or over with neither.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm

Yep, I was going off this one Aedrys posted a few minutes ago.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trayvon's injuries, per the leaked autopsy report

bwilson
05-16-2012, 08:22 PM
Intermediate range:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbrDbbHAflsC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=intermediate+range+gun+shot?&source=bl&ots=xlkz22e9Hk&sig=leMFZDkI6WOujMrQk-ERWjxIDrU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CEO0T4XCFIzTiALXmOnSAg&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=intermediate%20range%20gun%20shot%3F&f=false

Wow that is a long link, hope it works.
:) I'm new here and usually post in a different forum, but have been following this case closely as well.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 08:28 PM
Every article I have read says knuckleS.
MSNBC is the only place (so far) that I have seen the description of a singular knuckle.

1/4" is pretty big on a finger IMO.

The funeral director said matter of factly that there were NO injuries to TM knuckles.
Broken skin is an injury.

JMO

RANCH
05-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Yep, I was going off this one Aedrys posted a few minutes ago.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trayvon's injuries, per the leaked autopsy report (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7926669&postcount=80)

Thanks. I think that 6-30" makes more sense. 3.5 feet is an awfully long way to have stippling on a body. JMO.

Just K
05-16-2012, 08:30 PM
Every article I have read says knuckleS.
MSNBC is the only place (so far) that I have seen the description of a singular knuckle.

1/4" is pretty big on a finger IMO.

The funeral director said matter of factly that there were NO injuries to TM knuckles.
Broken skin is an injury.

JMO

The reporter says that they have an actual copy of the autopsy which ABC did not say. The FD would have been correct in saying there was no injury to TM's "Knuckles" as the autopsy report states there was an abrasion below the knuckle.

elementary
05-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Every article I have read says knuckleS.
MSNBC is the only place (so far) that I have seen the description of a singular knuckle.

1/4" is pretty big on a finger IMO.

The funeral director said matter of factly that there were NO injuries to TM knuckles.
Broken skin is an injury.

JMO

<modsnip> The fact is it's teeny tiny. Check it out on a ruler. Let's not exaggerate out of proportion to support a POV.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 08:49 PM
<modsnip> The fact is it's teeny tiny. Check it out on a ruler. Let's not exaggerate out of proportion to support a POV.

And I think a 1/4 inch is 1/4 inch regardless of what it's on. The measurement is the same. jmo

kimpage
05-16-2012, 08:51 PM
Do not know if it has been posted but i was watching JVM and they said TM had a small cut on left knuckle not numerous cuts on hands and his toxicology for drugs was NEGATIVE which highly irked FT......Saw on tv so no link so will add IMHO JMHO and all that...And am just beginning to read this thread from page one soif it has been discussed i am sorry.........

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 08:53 PM
I think it's obvious (or should be) that I meant 1/4" looks large on something as small as a finger.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 08:56 PM
And I think a 1/4 inch is 1/4 inch regardless of what it's on. The measurement is the same. jmo Kind of like that thing which weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?

LambChop
05-16-2012, 09:01 PM
Kind of like that thing which weighs more a pound of feathers or a pound of gold?

Oh, I understood what Kimberly meant I just don't see the significance of a small 1/4 inch cut on his ring finger. It could have been a paper cut from the store and that was why he had no bag. There are lots of possibilities but doubtful it's a cut he received from banging GZ's head repeatedly which now even GZ's injuries of record do not indicate severe bashing of the head. jmo

kimpage
05-16-2012, 09:09 PM
One 1/4 inch cut does not match with GZ'S claim of a broken nose or head being bashed repeatedly.... And i think FT was so huffy that TM's toxicology was negative for drugs is very telling......Oh and my son was on Adderall for ADHD and the Psychiatrist took him of because it made him extremey paranoid........IMHO JMHO and all that

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 09:14 PM
I don't think a small abrasion under the knuckle means the funeral director mislead anything.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't think a small abrasion under the knuckle means the funeral director mislead anything.

No injuries to his knuckles or hands?
A small abrasion is an injury.
It was under the knuckle which is on the hand.

I think the director totally mislead NG and her audience.

JMO

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 09:22 PM
No injuries to his knuckles or hands?
A small abrasion is an injury.
It was under the knuckle which is on the hand.

I think the director totally mislead NG and her audience.

JMO

I think that the key word here is "injuries". The funeral director didn't think a tiny abrasion was an injury. IMO.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 09:22 PM
No injuries to his knuckles or hands?
A small abrasion is an injury.
It was under the knuckle which is on the hand.

I think the director totally mislead NG and her audience.

JMO Why did he say there were no signs of injury to Trayvon? He said it was because if there had been they would have had to cover it up. A tiny mark like that they would not have to cover up.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:26 PM
I think that the key word here is "injuries". The funeral director didn't think a tiny abrasion was an injury. IMO.

???
An abrasion IS an injury.
That's what it means.

Abrasion and injury are synonyms.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 09:27 PM
No injuries to his knuckles or hands?
A small abrasion is an injury.
It was under the knuckle which is on the hand.

I think the director totally mislead NG and her audience.

JMO

I think the question to the director was were his hands scrapped up, as if he had consistently banged GZ's head on the cement and scrapped his knuckles. He said he did not see anything like that. We don't even know how old the 1/4 inch abrasion was or whether is was fresh. Obviously the media did not feel that part was important enough to report. jmo

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:28 PM
Why did he say there were no signs of injury to Trayvon? He said it was because if there had been they would have had to cover it up. A tiny mark like that they would not have to cover up.

That does not negate the fact that TM had an injury to his hand.
The funeral director said there were no injuries to TM's knuckles or hands.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:29 PM
I think the question to the director was were his hands scrapped up, as if he had consistently banged GZ's head on the cement and scrapped his knuckles. He said he did not see anything like that. We don't even know how old the 1/4 inch abrasion was or whether is was fresh. Obviously the media did not feel that part was important enough to report. jmo

I don't remember that part of his story.
I'll see what I can find.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 09:30 PM
That does not negate the fact that TM had an injury to his hand.
The funeral director said there were no injuries to TM's knuckles or hands.

Oh, I thought he said he didn't see any.

I didn't think he was testifying that there were no injuries to Trayvon's hands.

Verboten
05-16-2012, 09:31 PM
I would think his injuries would be way more severe if he was beating GZ and banging his head into the ground. Only one abrasion doesn't sound like a beating getting GZ close to diapers to me.

And the intermediate range - TM was not as close as GZ said he was. I bet he was over eight inches away, and that's why he was face down. He was trying to get away.

The report I read said 1/4 inch abrasion BELOW the knuckle. Don't know how you get *that* from a punch. And, intermediate range in no way matches GZ story.

Verboten
05-16-2012, 09:35 PM
Oh, I thought he said he didn't see any.

I didn't think he was testifying that there were no injuries to Trayvon's hands.

What I heard him say is that he did not see any. If he had, he would have had to cover it up. Didn't have to do that. But, he also mentioned he got body post-autopsy. He made the same point regarding seeing one wound only--not entry & exit--this was post-autopsy & therefore does not necessary indicate what was originally there.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 09:35 PM
The reporter says that they have an actual copy of the autopsy which ABC did not say. The FD would have been correct in saying there was no injury to TM's "Knuckles" as the autopsy report states there was an abrasion below the knuckle.

Yes, on Trayvon's left ring finger. Not a part of the hand that would normally be injured from bashing in a nose or smashing a head against the sidewalk.

1/4" is a mighty tiny scrape. Trayvon could have cut his finger on the pop-off on a can of soda -- or any other number of other ways.

I hope everyone now understands that it would have been very easy for the Funeral Director to miss such a tiny scrape.

So, the skinny kid had two injuries. The wound to his left chest which shattered the ventricle of his heart ... and a teeny tiny 1/4" scrape on his left ring finger, NOT even on his knuckle but below it.

As far as I'm concerned this shows that Trayvon was NOT punching <modsnip> George at all.

What a bunch of LIARS the whole Zimmerman camp have been. How do they think they can LIE so flagrantly and believe they won't get caught? _ :furious:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47453093/#47453093

imo

Justice for Trayvon Martin -- the boy who lived only 21 days past his 17th birthday. What a sad, senseless tragedy!

elementary
05-16-2012, 09:36 PM
That does not negate the fact that TM had an injury to his hand.
The funeral director said there were no injuries to TM's knuckles or hands.

In common speak, I find, an 'injury' is something quite large and concerning. As for a scratch, well, splitting hairs, it can be called an injury out of many synonyms for such. So what? I am not sure what your point is, since there is variation in communication about what an 'injury' constitutes. Are you implying the funeral director had some hidden agenda?

LambChop
05-16-2012, 09:36 PM
I don't remember that part of his story.
I'll see what I can find.

I think the director was saying he did not see an injuries that would require him to cover them over with makeup so that the family would not be exposed to seeing that. So I think his belief was did he see any significant injuries to his hands that would have been noticed when they were preparing his body. It is possible he did not see it since it was so small. And do we even know how old the cut was or anything about it? Whoever the reporter was left off a lot of detail. jmo

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:38 PM
I think the question to the director was were his hands scrapped up, as if he had consistently banged GZ's head on the cement and scrapped his knuckles. He said he did not see anything like that. We don't even know how old the 1/4 inch abrasion was or whether is was fresh. Obviously the media did not feel that part was important enough to report. jmo

I've looked and I can't find anything about the question you mentioned being asked.
Do you know where you read that?

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:41 PM
Oh, I thought he said he didn't see any.

I didn't think he was testifying that there were no injuries to Trayvon's hands.

Testifying?

He said there were none.
He said it as fact.
He implied that he would know.

He misled IMO.

He also made comments about the police work being horrible.
I don't know what that has to do with his job.

I think he was trying to "help" the ARREST GEORGE ZIMMERMAN case.

It was all about public outrage before the arrest. Information like this certainly fueled that fire.

JMO

deelytful1
05-16-2012, 09:43 PM
I think that the key word here is "injuries". The funeral director didn't think a tiny abrasion was an injury. IMO.
Also, do we know how OLD this abrasion was? Perhaps it was already scabbed up and did not even occur that night, hence the funeral director did not note it....??? Just catching up.

ETA: Just read your post LambChop! EXACTLY!

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:44 PM
In common speak, I find, an 'injury' is something quite large and concerning. As for a scratch, well, splitting hairs, it can be called an injury out of many synonyms for such. So what? I am not sure what your point is, since there is variation in communication about what an 'injury' constitutes. Are you implying the funeral director had some hidden agenda?

It's not splitting hairs.
It's the English language.

An abrasion is an injury.
The skin is injured.

I have no idea if he had a hidden agenda.

But I do know that the autopsy seems to disprove his comments on the NG show.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 09:44 PM
That does not negate the fact that TM had an injury to his hand.
The funeral director said there were no injuries to TM's knuckles or hands.

<modsnip> a big, huge 1/4 inch scrape on Trayvon's left ring finger -- NOT even on his knuckle, but below it.

<modsnip>

I have bigger, worse scrapes on my own fingers right now. And I haven't punched anyone EVER!

imo

Just K
05-16-2012, 09:45 PM
<modsnip>

GZ's fingernail may have sliced TM's finger. I sure hope they swabbed that abrasion.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Testifying?

He said there were none.
He said it as fact.
He implied that he would know.

He misled IMO.
He also made comments about the police work being horrible.
I don't know what that has to do with his job.

I think he was trying to "help" the ARREST GEORGE ZIMMERMAN case.

It was all about public outrage before the arrest. Information like this certainly fueled that fire.

JMO

Kind of like the "misleading" stuff about all of the injuries to Trayvon's hands that was offered as proof he beat Zimmerman up? But now has turned out to be false? I think the fire was fuled with that too. I'm really not trying to be snarky....sorry if it sounds that way.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Kind of like the "misleading" stuff about all of the injuries to Trayvon's hands that proved he beat Zimmerman up?

IMO GZ's injuries prove that no matter what TM's knuckles looked like.

elementary
05-16-2012, 09:58 PM
<modsnip> a big, huge 1/4 inch scrape on Trayvon's left ring finger -- NOT even on his knuckle, but below it.

<modsnip>

I have bigger, worse scrapes on my own fingers right now. And I haven't punched anyone EVER!

imo

Well said! I hate the thought that some minor thing becomes huge when we all have suffered such minor scratches and never been accused of fighting or deathly assault. Mountains out of molehills and all that, IMO.

LynnM
05-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Well said! I hate the thought that some minor thing becomes huge when we all have suffered such minor scratches and never been accused of fighting or deathly assault. Mountains out of molehills and all that, IMO.

Looking at one I got last night on my left index finger and for the life of me I cannot remember how. Definitely wasn't in a fight though.

Just K
05-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Perhaps the ME swabbed TM's fingernails and found evidence which will prove that the injuries to GZ's head are fingernail digs.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:11 PM
Perhaps the ME swabbed TM's fingernails and found evidence which will prove that the injuries to GZ's head are fingernail digs.

But during the bond hearing the detective said his head injuries were consistent with hitting something hard.

IMO they were not fingernail scrapes.

vlpate
05-16-2012, 10:12 PM
Aren't the toxicology reports part of the autopsy? If MSNBC has the actual autopsy, why did they not reveal the results?

"(The medical examiner in the case did a routine toxicology screening of Mr. Martin; the results have not been made public.)" LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47453164/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T7RaXdym-uI)

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:13 PM
Well, I question this statement. There's an issue here of cause and effect. It has not been answered, even if the post assumes that it has. It's really just an opinion. Not a fact.

ETA: Oh and, what is the proof, where is the evidence for cause and effect even though Trayvon's knuckles don't support GZ's story?

Where did I say it was fact?
The first 3 letters of the post you quoted were IMO.

I never claimed it was fact.

vlpate
05-16-2012, 10:16 PM
Well, I question this statement. There's an issue here of cause and effect. It has not been answered, even if the post assumes that it has. It's really just an opinion. Not a fact.

ETA: Oh and, what is the proof, where is the evidence for cause and effect even though Trayvon's knuckles don't support GZ's story?

Where is the proof that Trayvon's knuckles don't support GZ's story? TIA

elementary
05-16-2012, 10:25 PM
Oh, I just read that this <modsnip> injury on Trayvon's hand was on his left hand. Which means, unless he's left handed, it wasn't even his dominant hand. Hmmm.

ynotdivein
05-16-2012, 10:27 PM
Do we know whether Trayvon was left- or right-hand dominant?

AJ Noiter
05-16-2012, 10:28 PM
Oh, I just read that this <modsnip> injury on Trayvon's hand was on his left hand. Which means, unless he's left handed, it wasn't even his dominant hand. Hmmm.

I don't see how that'd be of any relevance, to be honest. I am right handed but I can throw a punch with my left hand. Unless someone can state factually that his left arm/hand was useless to him, and even if they did that this point I'd doubt the story, I'd find that it doesn't matter.

norest4thewicked
05-16-2012, 10:31 PM
I don't see how that'd be of any relevance, to be honest. I am right handed but I can throw a punch with my left hand. Unless someone can state factually that his left arm/hand was useless to him, and even if they did that this point I'd doubt the story, I'd find that it doesn't matter.

I agree with you. I am right handed, but if a person I was trying to punch was turned in a way that I couldn't hit his face with my right hand, I'd use my left, especially in that type of situation.

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 10:34 PM
I think that the key word here is "injuries". The funeral director didn't think a tiny abrasion was an injury. IMO.

ITA. I've got "abrasions" on my hands where my cat scratched me, and another scratch on my knee that I have no idea how I got, and a little spot on my thumb where I pulled off a hangnail, but I would never refer to these as "injuries."

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:36 PM
But they are injuries.

norest4thewicked
05-16-2012, 10:37 PM
ITA. I've got "abrasions" on my hands where my cat scratched me, and another scratch on my knee that I have no idea how I got, and a little spot on my thumb where I pulled off a hangnail, but I would never refer to these as "injuries."

But, technically and medically, they are injuries.

Aedrys
05-16-2012, 10:37 PM
ITA. I've got "abrasions" on my hands where my cat scratched me, and another scratch on my knee that I have no idea how I got, and a little spot on my thumb where I pulled off a hangnail, but I would never refer to these as "injuries."

Shoot, I get bruises all of the time that I don't know how I got them. I bruise easily and I'm clumsy. I've never been in a fight and I've had much larger injuries than Trayvon. I find it hard to believe he fought a bouncer with a gun and all he got, besides the gunshot, is a teeny, tiny bruise. That just doesn't make any sense to me. A bouncer should know how to fight, not be a coward.

beach
05-16-2012, 10:42 PM
Come on you guys. Drop the semantics game re: the definition of an injury.

Tomato - Tomahto and all that.

Let it go.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 11:47 PM
How will anyone know when the injuries to Trayvon's knuckle/s occurred? None of my injuries have dates on them!

ynotdivein
05-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Soooo... *coff coff meaningful coff*

About Trayvon's injuries...?

Just K
05-16-2012, 11:50 PM
Hopefully a good ME can tell if it was old or brand new. I'm sure they photographed the small cut and measured it's depth, length and width. At least I hope they did.

Karmady
05-17-2012, 12:19 AM
I'm stymied here. Trayvon had a quarter inch scratch on his finger. And the significance of that is....what? (Just using your post as a jumping off point.)

That he certainly didn't TAKE a beating and potentially gave one. Until now, many have had George giving the beating and waiting (or not lol) to see the autopsy to verify it . Now we know that George has injuries consistent with receiving a beating (however you want to characterize the severity of it) and Trayvon clearly not having received one. Which is, also, totally consistent with George's story and John's account -- maybe others, and is not inconsistent with any of them.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 12:30 AM
How do you beat someone up within an inch of permanent paralysis and yet have no injuries to your hands except a teeny tiny scratch not even directly on a knuckle?

I mean earlier the "injuries" to TM's hands proved that he beat GZ up, except now we know that the "injuries" consisted of exactly one 1/4 inch long abrasion, and that too proves he beat GZ up?

Does not compute to me.

There are not other injuries on TM (except the bullet wound). Which suggests he was never even hit. But there are injuries on Zimmerman, even if they are not "within an inch of his life." Which supports the idea Zimmerman was the one on the bottom getting beat up-as witnessed by "John."

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 12:31 AM
That he certainly didn't TAKE a beating and potentially gave one. Until now, many have had George giving the beating and waiting (or not lol) to see the autopsy to verify it . Now we know that George has injuries consistent with receiving a beating (however you want to characterize the severity of it) and Trayvon clearly not having received one. Which is, also, totally consistent with George's story and John's account -- maybe others, and is not inconsistent with any of them.

BBM for focus

I realize I am repeating myself but ... and we also now know that TM does not have injuries consistent with administering a beating.

IMO of course.

Karmady
05-17-2012, 12:34 AM
BBM for focus

I realize I am repeating myself but ... and we also now know that TM does not have injuries consistent with administering a beating.

IMO of course.

Well, unless they were giving each other piggy back rides while they were struggling on the ground for a nearly a minute and John mistook those piggy back rides for a beating, someone was getting their clock cleaned and, clearly from the autopsy, it was NOT Trayvon. That doesn't leave very many options.

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 12:37 AM
I wouldn't say that an injury to a knuckle is inconsistent. If you didn't know that two people were George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin, and you found out one had an injury to a knuckle whereas the other had injuries to his face and back of head, which one would you think was on the ground being beat up?

AFAIK there was no injury to a knuckle.

Again, BBM:

The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

Link: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?chromedomain=openchannel&lite

Just K
05-17-2012, 01:35 AM
Either I'm losing my mind or...:what:

GZ's leaked medical records show that he had significant marks on him, yet TM's leaked autopsy report shows that somehow TM was able to inflict those significant marks without leaving a single significant mark on himself, only one tiny abrasion not even on a knuckle with which he, according to GZ, had to have used in the nose punching.

So--if one believes that GZ's broken nose and black eyes were caused by TM's beating of him, one must also believe that TM was able to inflict such serious injuries without suffering any injuries of his own except that one little abrasion.

It's just that simple to me.

I don't find it logical myself.

I want to know if TM had GZ's nose blood (with nasal fluids) on his hands or anywhere on him.

AngelWings444
05-17-2012, 02:44 AM
What injuries to Trayvon's knuckles?

"The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle."

BBM

Link: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?chromedomain=openchannel&lite

Doesn't seem like Trayvon could have sustained the small "abrasion" to his knuckle from fighting. An abrasion is a scrape. You do not get a scrape from a fight. Maybe a swollen/broke/cut hand or knuckle, but not an abrasion.

I get a fresh abrasion in that very spot from grating cheese, almost ever time I do it. :blushing:

In regards to the "alleged" black eyes, maybe his eyes were dark because he was exhausted. Up all night at the station, and frantically packing up.

Just throwing some "stuff" against the wall. :moo:

Yoda
05-17-2012, 04:15 AM
"However, Crump said Martin had cuts to knuckles, saying, Martin got those injuries fighting for his life". Crump knew about injuries/abrasions/cuts to TM's hands. He wouldn't just be finding out would he?


http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/records-detail-george-zimmermans-medical-injuries/nN7Dh/

vlpate
05-17-2012, 05:36 AM
Michael Isikof is the originator of the latest autopsy leak. He's been a well respected investigative journalist for many years, but something is just not right, IMO. I did a quick search and found this article ON the Crump and Park website. After reading the article, I wonder if his words are carefully parsed, as regards the autopsy information, without ever seeing these reports. I can't help but wonder why he is the only reporter with such detailed information on the size and location of the one abrasion on TM's finger.

Michael Isikof explains racial profiling investigation (http://parkscrump.com/fbi-questions-people-in-trayvon-martin-case-begins-parallel-investigation/)
"The call sheets show that five of seven phone calls Zimmerman had made since last August involved what he viewed as suspicious activity by young men identified as “black males.” But the call sheets do not indicate whether Zimmerman was asked about the race of the suspects or volunteered that information."

Of course the dispatchers asked, "black, white, or hispanic", it's SOP, always. Parsing? Maybe this case has made me too cynical.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:16 AM
Wasn't the injury to TM's left hand????

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 08:21 AM
Wasn't the injury to TM's left hand????

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?lite

Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

I wonder if Trayvon was left handed.

wm

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 08:41 AM
Can someone set me straight on where is 'below the knuckle'? Would that be closer to the fingernail or the hand? TIA

wm

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 08:46 AM
Can someone set me straight on where is 'below the knuckle'? Would that be closer to the fingernail or the hand? TIA

wm

I was thinking it would be closer to the hand.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:46 AM
Can someone set me straight on where is 'below the knuckle'? Would that be closer to the fingernail or the hand? TIA

wm

I'm thinking closer to the fingernail would be considered below. Above would be closer to the hand. But that is just me. lol

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:48 AM
I was thinking it would be closer to the hand.

If you consider that the fingernail portion is at the end of your finger below the knuckle could mean closer to the fingernail. But that is the way I would see it. jmo

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 08:49 AM
Kimberly and Lambchop, Now I am more confooosed than ever, LOL!

wm

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 08:50 AM
If you consider that the fingernail portion is at the end of your finger below the knuckle could mean closer to the fingernail. But that is the way I would see it. jmo

I was thinking, when you look at your hand, the fingernail is at the tip (top). So below the knuckle would be closer to the hand.

Lol

Maybe someone who knows can help us out.

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Kimberly and Lambchop, Now I am more confooosed than ever, LOL!

wm

I know. I'm sorry.
:crazy:

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:52 AM
Kimberly and Lambchop, Now I am more confooosed than ever, LOL!

wm

Think of it this way. You hand ends at your fingers. Your finger end at your fingernail. So for an ME to say below the knuckle it seem logical it would be closer to the fingernail. But as I said, that is just how I would read it, logically speaking that is. Unless the ME follows a whole set of different rules. lol

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 08:54 AM
I was thinking, when you look at your hand, the fingernail is at the tip (top). So below the knuckle would be closer to the hand.

Lol

Maybe someone who knows can help us out.

I think it has to do with the anatomical position used in medical.

Everything is down from the shoulder.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:55 AM
I know. I'm sorry.
:crazy:

I know, too. Confusing isn't it? Because if YOU are looking down at your hand and describing a wound you might say it is under the knuckle because that is the way you see it. lol So I guess it's however the ME is looking at the wound. jmo

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 08:57 AM
Anatomical Position.

http://home.comcast.net/~wnor/terminologyanatposition.htm

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 09:02 AM
I know. I'm sorry.
:crazy:

No worries! I am having a good chuckle about 'below the knuckle'!:floorlaugh:

I REALLY don't know. If my hands are by my side while walking then it would be towards the fingertips but if I put on a ring, I hold my hand up and push it below the knuckle.

I guess we will find out once the autopsy report is released. The location of the knuckle wound should help connect the dots. JMO, but if the wound is more toward the hand then that supports Trayvon punching GZ, while if more towards the fingertips then that indicates a defensive wound because that is an awkward way to punch someone and cause a broken nose.

MOO

wm

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 09:02 AM
All medical reports are written as if the person is standing up with their arms down to their sides with the palms out.

If they say the cut is below the knuckle that means it is closer to the ground which would be closer to the fingertip.

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 09:03 AM
Ok, so below which knuckle?
Doesn't each finger have 3?

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 09:10 AM
Ok, so below which knuckle?
Doesn't each finger have 3?

Now you go and get technical.:floorlaugh:

Good questions. I look forward to the autopsy report being released. Although I dislike reading them, it will cllear up alot of our questions.

wm

Thanks Dr. Fessel for the info about autopsy procedure.

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 09:21 AM
Duh!!! I need more coffee...my bad.

I assumed the knuckle injury was on the outside of the hand, if one was making a fist, but it could have been 'below the knuckle' on the inside/palm of the hand.

wm

cityslick
05-17-2012, 09:26 AM
Duh!!! I need more coffee...my bad.

I assumed the knuckle injury was on the outside of the hand, if one was making a fist, but it could have been 'below the knuckle' on the inside/palm of the hand.

wm

For some reason I assumed the injury was beside the knuckle, kind of between two knuckles in that 'valley' on the hand.

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 09:33 AM
Duh!!! I need more coffee...my bad.

I assumed the knuckle injury was on the outside of the hand, if one was making a fist, but it could have been 'below the knuckle' on the inside/palm of the hand.

wm


Back of the hand (dorsal)

knuck·le
(nkl)
n.
1.
a. The prominence of the dorsal aspect of a joint of a finger, especially of one of the joints connecting the fingers to the hand.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/knuckle

HiHater
05-17-2012, 09:39 AM
For some reason I assumed the injury was beside the knuckle, kind of between two knuckles in that 'valley' on the hand.

Why would that be described as "below" the knuckle then?

cityslick
05-17-2012, 09:52 AM
Why would that be described as "below" the knuckle then?

I dunno, it's technically lower than the knuckle. If it was on the underside I would assume a reference to the palm or underside of the hand would of been used.

cityslick
05-17-2012, 10:17 AM
1. Do we know that he went to the doctor the next morning? I personally have a hard time getting in to see my doctor first thing in the morning. Usually they already have appointments booked. Maybe it was the afternoon.

Date on the doctor's report?

2. Do you have a source confirming his injuries were photoraphed and documented before he left the police station?

This link mentions a photo taken that night of GZ's face

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47453164/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T7UIKcWujTo


3. Logic is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. For example. I think it's totally illogical that Trayvon would have doubled back and jumped someone he told his girlfriend was making him scared.

Answers in red

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:25 AM
1. Do we know that he went to the doctor the next morning? I personally have a hard time getting in to see my doctor first thing in the morning. Usually they already have appointments booked. Maybe it was the afternoon.

2. Do you have a source confirming his injuries were photoraphed and documented before he left the police station?

3. Logic is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. For example. I think it's totally illogical that Trayvon would have doubled back and jumped someone he told his girlfriend was making him scared.

Not all doctors even have appointments. With some doctors, people just show up and wait in line.
According to NYT, Zimmerman's face was photographed on the scene showing a bloody nose. We also have a photo of the back of his head, taken by somebody, showing bleeding from the two cuts that he sustained on the back of his head.
I have no idea why that would be illogical. People have different ways of dealing with being scared.

Isabelle
05-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Answers in red

Is the photo taken the one that only shows the back of GZ's head or are there frontal photos also, since that is where the majority of injuries are located?

Isabelle
05-17-2012, 10:37 AM
I thought I was on the wrong thread. This is the 'Trayvon Martin injuries' thread?

So Trayvon had a few scrapes to knuckle/s left hand and a bullet wound to his chest? Is that all?

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:38 AM
I thought I was on the wrong thread. This is the 'Trayvon Martin injuries' thread?

So Trayvon had a few scrapes to knuckle/s left hand and a bullet wound to his chest? Is that all?

A scrape below one knuckle and a bullet wound to the chest, apparently.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 10:41 AM
I thought I was on the wrong thread. This is the 'Trayvon Martin injuries' thread?

So Trayvon had a few scrapes to knuckle/s left hand and a bullet wound to his chest? Is that all?

Well, it was one abrasion, 1/4 inch long to his LEFT finger under the knuckle and the bullet wound to the chest. That's it. jmo

Neige
05-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Here is a clip from this morning's Today Show:

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47458356#47458356

while the multipage autopsy is sealed by court order , nbc news was given access to read it. it says, in part, the teenager was killed by a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest, the entrance wound located on his left chest 17 inches below the head. the single bullet passed directly from the front to the back, through his lungs, creating perforations. the only injuries to trayvon martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, a quarter inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area. trayvon's gunshot wound entrance of intermediate range. how close was that? the medical examiner's report says there was a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by two-inch area of stippling. this is a gunshot residue expert and the chief medical examiner in bekxar, texas.

"it's emerging from the muzzle of the gun. based on the size of the pattern, the range was most likely between two and four inches."

waltzingmatilda
05-17-2012, 10:50 AM
Thanks for the link Neige!

:welcome:

wm

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Here is a clip from this morning's Today Show:

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47458356#47458356

while the multipage autopsy is sealed by court order , nbc news was given access to read it. it says, in part, the teenager was killed by a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest, the entrance wound located on his left chest 17 inches below the head. the single bullet passed directly from the front to the back, through his lungs, creating perforations. the only injuries to trayvon martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, a quarter inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area. trayvon's gunshot wound entrance of intermediate range. how close was that? the medical examiner's report says there was a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by two-inch area of stippling. this is a gunshot residue expert and the chief medical examiner in bekxar, texas.

"it's emerging from the muzzle of the gun. based on the size of the pattern, the range was most likely between two and four inches."

Between two and four inches? That is a very close range, even if they are calling it "intermediate."

RANCH
05-17-2012, 10:55 AM
Here is a clip from this morning's Today Show:

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47458356#47458356

while the multipage autopsy is sealed by court order , nbc news was given access to read it. it says, in part, the teenager was killed by a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest, the entrance wound located on his left chest 17 inches below the head. the single bullet passed directly from the front to the back, through his lungs, creating perforations. the only injuries to trayvon martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, a quarter inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area. trayvon's gunshot wound entrance of intermediate range. how close was that? the medical examiner's report says there was a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by two-inch area of stippling. this is a gunshot residue expert and the chief medical examiner in bekxar, texas.

"it's emerging from the muzzle of the gun. based on the size of the pattern, the range was most likely between two and four inches."
BBM
If there's a soot ring, it sounds more like a close range shot. JMO.
GUNSHOT WOUNDS

Definitions:
Fouling: Soot, residue of completely burned powder, dust-like, wipes off
Stippling (tattooing): Unburned powder and debris, causing punctate abrasions on target. Larger and heavier so travels farther. Does not wipe off.
Margin of abrasion: Characteristic of enterance wound but can be seen in shored exit.


Range of Fire:
Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
- Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
- Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
Close: <6" Stippling & Fouling
Intermediate: 6-30" Stippling
Distant: >30" Neither
(Distances approximate and depend on many variables. For accurate assessment need to test fire weapon with ammunition used.)



http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm

cityslick
05-17-2012, 11:05 AM
Is the photo taken the one that only shows the back of GZ's head or are there frontal photos also, since that is where the majority of injuries are located?

Article said it was a frontal picture because it said it showed his bloody nose. But it was taken by a cell phone, which is mind boggling to me.

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 11:17 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/


Trayvon Martin Shooting: Autopsy results found Martin had injuries to his knuckles, report says


A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin's hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

BBM - there are those plural words again.

ETA: This article was just posted about 2 minutes ago.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 11:25 AM
It's crazy that we've been waiting for facts so that we don't have to speculate.

Then we get facts in a manner that still leads us to speculate...

This is great though... :)

cityslick
05-17-2012, 11:29 AM
It's crazy that we've been waiting for facts so that we don't have to speculate.

Then we get facts in a manner that still leads us to speculate...

This is great though... :)

I knew the TM injury aspect was going to be debated no matter what he had because I honestly believe you can argue both sides no matter what.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 11:34 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/


Trayvon Martin Shooting: Autopsy results found Martin had injuries to his knuckles, report says


A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin's hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

BBM - there are those plural words again.

ETA: This article was just posted about 2 minutes ago.

I tend to think the responder information is false because medics would lose their jobs for releasing information to the media. I'm more inclinded to believe the ME's report. Plus TM was lying on his hands and could have had blood on his hands from his chest wound giving someone???? the impression that TM had injuries to his hands.

I also have to wonder how all these witnesses were able to get so close to the body while LE was trying to give him CPR. Did SPD allow for a free for all with people who were just standing around in the dark???? What about the integrity of the crime scene? I really think some of the media sites will print just about anything. lol

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 11:35 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/


Trayvon Martin Shooting: Autopsy results found Martin had injuries to his knuckles, report says


A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin's hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

BBM - there are those plural words again.

ETA: This article was just posted about 2 minutes ago.

Wonder how they saw those in the dark with his hands underneath him or after they rolled him over and giving cpr the back of his hands would be down.

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 11:37 AM
Shot him right in the heart.

Details from Trayvon Martin's autopsy show the bullet entered the left side of his chest and shattered the ventricle, one of his heart's two large chambers but the round did not leave his body.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 11:39 AM
Blown ventricle with a 9mm hollow point, he never stood up, he never said a word, he never turned around and fell down. IMO

Elley Mae
05-17-2012, 11:47 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/


Trayvon Martin Shooting: Autopsy results found Martin had injuries to his knuckles, report says


A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin's hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

BBM - there are those plural words again.

ETA: This article was just posted about 2 minutes ago.



I have also read it both ways.bbm
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

The injury to Martin’s knuckle also fits with Zimmerman's story that before he shot and killed Martin, Martin had broken his nose and knocked him to the ground, slamming his head on the sidewalk.

But Sheaffer said there could be another explanation for Martin's knuckle injury.

Helplessly Hoping
05-17-2012, 11:49 AM
I tend to think the responder information is false because medics would lose their jobs for releasing information to the media. I'm more inclinded to believe the ME's report. Plus TM was lying on his hands and could have had blood on his hands from his chest wound giving someone???? the impression that TM had injuries to his hands.

I also have to wonder how all these witnesses were able to get so close to the body while LE was trying to give him CPR. Did SPD allow for a free for all with people who were just standing around in the dark???? What about the integrity of the crime scene? I really think some of the media sites will print just about anything. lol

BBM--I completely agree. I work in an industry where HIPPA regs are drilled into us day in and day out. I would be fired in a flash where I to violate.

And I can't see how they had a clean crime scene with everything going on either.

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 11:51 AM
I guess it's now safe to say (as I have known all along) that the congresswoman was WRONG when she told JVM that TM had a broken nose.

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 11:55 AM
I guess it's now safe to say (as I have known all along) that the congresswoman was WRONG when she told JVM that TM had a broken nose.

Who knows, Trayvon never had the chance to go to a Dr. the next day and tell him about his complaints and show him all the swelling and bruising his body produced in the mean time and then let the Dr. guess at what was wrong with his nose.

K_Z
05-17-2012, 12:03 PM
Blown ventricle with a 9mm hollow point, he never stood up, he never said a word, he never turned around and fell down. IMO

Yup. Instantaneous loss of BP. Never had a chance. No way CPR could do anything. Even if that injury occurred in an ER, that injury is not survivable. Not even with a cardiopulmonary bypass machine ready and waiting. Pretty sad deal.

(That is, if the mainstream media article "fact" is accurate. And accuracy has been a real problem the past few days, it seems.)

I'm still interested to see the autopsy report, though I've been pretty confident what the the AR would say about the intrathoracic damage.

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 12:06 PM
Yup. Instantaneous loss of BP. Never had a chance. No way CPR could do anything. Even if that injury occurred in an ER, that injury is not survivable. Not even with a cardiopulmonary bypass machine ready and waiting. Pretty sad deal.

(That is, if the mainstream media article "fact" is accurate. And accuracy has been a real problem the past few days, it seems.)

I'm still interested to see the autopsy report, though I've been pretty confident what the the AR would say about the intrathoracic damage.

I am interested in finding out where the bullet ended up.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 12:07 PM
Yup. Instantaneous loss of BP. Never had a chance. No way CPR could do anything. Even if that injury occurred in an ER, that injury is not survivable. Not even with a cardiopulmonary bypass machine ready and waiting. Pretty sad deal.

(That is, if the mainstream media article "fact" is accurate. And accuracy has been a real problem the past few days, it seems.)

I'm still interested to see the autopsy report, though I've been pretty confident what the the AR would say about the intrathoracic damage.

BBM yikes, I hope the autopsy report will be easier to read than that! ;)

I thought I read somewhere that his lung(s) were/was penetrated...would he have been able to talk as GZ says he did after the shot?

LambChop
05-17-2012, 12:11 PM
BBM yikes, I hope the autopsy report will be easier to read than that! ;)

I thought I read somewhere that his lung(s) were/was penetrated...would he have been able to talk as GZ says he did after the shot?

It would be a good reason why the screaming stopped. jmo

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 12:13 PM
The shock wave of the blood going to the brain from the heart would have knocked him out instantly. He never said or did anything after he was shot other then to fall over which ever way he was leaning. imo

vlpate
05-17-2012, 12:20 PM
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh: It would take a pretty big finger to sport a scrape the size of a quarter.

He didn't mention "finger", just "knuckle". Those knotty things where your finger meets your hand are knuckles too.

I have small hands, I could easily place a quarter on any knuckle of my flattened hand.

tehcloser
05-17-2012, 12:25 PM
The "abrasion" was under the knuckle on his ring finger. Not on his knuckle.

believe09
05-17-2012, 12:28 PM
I would think that it would take somewhat force to give a man two black eyes and break his nose. That would have to be a hard hit.

I know I am way behind here-could be head butt from T, could be noggins colliding if GZ was falling backwards holding onto T as some on the thread have speculated.

I am going back now to see if there are any other abrasions noted or if we are looking at some very, very selective stuff being released here.

I mean, T had medical intervention...they didnt just roll him over and declare him dead. JMVHO. So, there are other things that were clearly noted in the actual autopsy report which up until I left the thread yesterday have not been mentioned by the media. There have to be.

I will catch up now!

who
05-17-2012, 12:31 PM
He didn't mention "finger", just "knuckle". Those knotty things where your finger meets your hand are knuckles too.

I have small hands, I could easily place a quarter on any knuckle of my flattened hand.
It was an 1/8th inch to 1/4 inch sized abrasion.

<modsnip>

Nana46
05-17-2012, 12:33 PM
I am late to the party as per usual....quarter size? Can somebody point me to that please....I admit I am not up to speed on this case as Isabel Celis has captured my heart and my head.
TIA

K_Z
05-17-2012, 12:36 PM
BBM yikes, I hope the autopsy report will be easier to read than that! ;)

I thought I read somewhere that his lung(s) were/was penetrated...would he have been able to talk as GZ says he did after the shot?

Makes not a bit of difference whether he had shredded lung tissue. The loss of consciousness would proceed so rapidly from the GSW to the heart that lung function is just not an issue. We're talking a few seconds of consciousness, at best, once the heart was impacted. So it is possible he uttered something as he lost consciousness, imo. (Thinking of this as on the "exhale".)

Lovelymountains
05-17-2012, 12:48 PM
Makes not a bit of difference whether he had shredded lung tissue. The loss of consciousness would proceed so rapidly from the GSW to the heart that lung function is just not an issue. We're talking a few seconds of consciousness, at best, once the heart was impacted. So it is possible he uttered something as he lost consciousness, imo. (Thinking of this as on the "exhale".)

Could Trayvon possibly have said, "You got me," as he exhaled which happens sometimes in old Western movies and as GZ claimed in early reports of Trayvon's death? I don't have the link so IMO GZ claimed that.

believe09
05-17-2012, 12:51 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-found-martin-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles-report-says/


Trayvon Martin Shooting: Autopsy results found Martin had injuries to his knuckles, report says


A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin's hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

BBM - there are those plural words again.

ETA: This article was just posted about 2 minutes ago.

So the leaked autopsy report was wrong or the media is editing it again? :waitasec: That is if you believe what the first responder told CBS.

This is a mess.

who
05-17-2012, 12:57 PM
So the leaked autopsy report was wrong or the media is editing it again? :waitasec: That is if you believe what the first responder told CBS.

This is a mess.
I wouldn't take the term "responder" to mean the medical team, just in case anyone may have interpreted it that way..(I'm guessing it was the same "friend of George's" who took the picture.")

and I also don't think you can take the words of a supposed eye-witness over that of a medical examiner in an autopsy report.

believe09
05-17-2012, 12:58 PM
You know I have been searching around trying to find anything that would support a quarter inch abrasion to a single knuckle as being indicative of an actual brawl that would have caused GZ's injuries.

I even read Ron Goldman's autopsy because he clearly was in a fight for his life, granted a COMPLETELY different scenario. I have read mixed martial arts website, boxing websites and bare knuckle boxing websites.

Unless TM was schooled in some of these arts mentioned, you are going to get hurt hitting someone's face unless you know how to do it. You are going to have bruises. Pounding someone's head on pavement should show something more to his hands. It is easy to break fingers when you punch someone....

There is no mention of bruising. A single abrasion. I mean, I dont think what is being reported is accurate. There is too much that is missing here that is worthy of being reported. The autopsy results as leaked appear are biased. That is the only scenario that fits for me....

vlpate
05-17-2012, 01:00 PM
It was an 1/8th inch to 1/4 inch sized abrasion.

<snipped>

My local news this morning, sorry for no link, so I'll say IMO. It was repeated twice. He could have been mistaken, I kept thinking when the segment came up again, he'd have been corrected.

I tend not to believe much from NBC since three employees were fired for fraudulent reporting. Until I see the autopsy report, it's all possible.

who
05-17-2012, 01:07 PM
My local news this morning, sorry for no link, so I'll say IMO. It was repeated twice. He could have been mistaken, I kept thinking when the segment came up again, he'd have been corrected.

I tend not to believe much from NBC since three employees were fired for fraudulent reporting. Until I see the autopsy report, it's all possible.

"The only injuries to Martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, "a quarter-inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...152333240.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-family-lawyers-stop-leaks-release-records-152333240.html)

Yep. ---> -- <--- That.

The only injury.

Except for the close range, hollow point bullet that Zimmerman discharged into his chest.

Allusonz
05-17-2012, 01:08 PM
The shock wave of the blood going to the brain from the heart would have knocked him out instantly. He never said or did anything after he was shot other then to fall over which ever way he was leaning. imo

BBM

This may not be accurate as I know for a fact that during a tachychardia episode I was injected with a medication in my groin and my heart STOPPED.

I know what I said I simply can't repeat it before the heart started beating again.

LC446
05-17-2012, 01:10 PM
BBM yikes, I hope the autopsy report will be easier to read than that! ;)

I thought I read somewhere that his lung(s) were/was penetrated...would he have been able to talk as GZ says he did after the shot?

BBM

No, talking after that shot....that's why the screaming stopped immediately, IMO.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 01:12 PM
Could Trayvon possibly have said, "You got me," as he exhaled which happens sometimes in old Western movies and as GZ claimed in early reports of Trayvon's death? I don't have the link so IMO GZ claimed that.

I have no idea whether someone shot in the heart can manage to say something before death. It would be up to medical experts to either support or contradict that.

vlpate
05-17-2012, 01:13 PM
The "abrasion" was under the knuckle on his ring finger. Not on his knuckle.

Are these first reports to be ignored now because NBC spoke with Crump?

WFTV (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/)

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 01:13 PM
--if trayvon was "straddling" george at the time that he shot him, wouldn't trayvon have fallen forward and right on top of george at that point?

Then presumably Zimmerman would wiggle out from underneath him, which could explain why Trayvon was face down.

cityslick
05-17-2012, 01:15 PM
Trayvon fell on his face with his hands under him because he was standing up with his arms stretched out holding on to Zimmerman's gun hand when he shot him. He died instantly. imo

That means 'John' is lying because didn't he say he saw the two scuffle on the ground?

gxm
05-17-2012, 01:17 PM
In point of fact, I have never seen a fight, been in a fight, had a broken nose seven times, or even once. I have never been in a situation where a fight broke out and it is unlikely I ever will be. But logic must insist,however, one does not have to personally participate in a fistfight or even witness one to know that if someone beats someone within an inch of their life, the beater will show some physical sign of it. Maybe if a person who was unconscious or a person with no arms was being beaten, but otherwise, no. It would be a reflex to try to defend oneself. I have seen no mention of GZ having defensive wounds. And I certainly have seen no evidence that TM took GZ's head in his hands and beat it against a sidewalk. Two minor wounds which look like puncture wounds? No way. While it is true, which had been mentioned somewhat earlier, that it would be easy to beat a cantaloupe or watermelon against a cement walkway, fruit doesn't have reflexes as humans do, nor do they offer resistance. Any person, no matter who it might be, would offer some defense in a situation as claimed and would have the injuries to show for it.
Unless......Someone approached you from behind, tried to detain you and spun you around and shot you. That would leave little opportunity to defend oneself. And, IMO, that's what happened.

I was attacked in a similar manner as GZ describes and I did not fight back or attempt to hit my attacker. All of my effort was directed toward getting away and sheltering myself from the blows. And, I know I'm a broken record, but: I did not have any cuts on my head, just very painful lumps that made it unbearable to wash or brush my hair.

Other victims of violence have had different experiences. But this was my experience and it's one of the reasons I find GZ's story plausible.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

tehcloser
05-17-2012, 01:17 PM
Are these first reports to be ignored now because NBC spoke with Crump?

WFTV (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/)

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

NBC spoke with Crump? Well either way, they had the autopsy report. Which I believe is more than the others had so yes, I am ignoring the reports that came out before that didn't have the autopsy report.

believe09
05-17-2012, 01:17 PM
Then presumably Zimmerman would wiggle out from underneath him, which could explain why Trayvon was face down.

Then I would think GZ had a lot of blood on his shirt...

jjenny
05-17-2012, 01:19 PM
Then I would think GZ had a lot of blood on his shirt...

Not if the bleeding was mostly internal.

LC446
05-17-2012, 01:39 PM
I was attacked in a similar manner as GZ describes and I did not fight back or attempt to hit my attacker. All of my effort was directed toward getting away and sheltering myself from the blows. And, I know I'm a broken record, but: I did not have any cuts on my head, just very painful lumps that made it unbearable to wash or brush my hair.

Other victims of violence have had different experiences. But this was my experience and it's one of the reasons I find GZ's story plausible.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I appreciate that you've shared this story with us. It does provide me a different perspective. I would like to ask a few questions but completely understand if you're uncomfortable answering. After you were attacked, were the only injuries you sustained the lumps on your head? You describe sheltering yourself. Did your arms have any bruising on them? It would seem a perfectly natural reaction to protect your head so I'm curious if there was any bruising due to the blows glancing off your arms as you protected yourself.

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 01:45 PM
BBM

This may not be accurate as I know for a fact that during a tachychardia episode I was injected with a medication in my groin and my heart STOPPED.

I know what I said I simply can't repeat it before the heart started beating again.

Right, and half your heart wasn't blown out by a bullet dropping your BP instantly to zero, your circulation system was intact.

K_Z
05-17-2012, 01:46 PM
--if trayvon was "straddling" george at the time that he shot him, wouldn't trayvon have fallen forward and right on top of george at that point?

From purely a gravity perspective, that does seem likely, if they were in that position. But I sure can't say for sure.

I have read in several places that the impact from a 9mm at close range is not enough to knock a person back. I'll look for the links again.

Stopping power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i.b.nora
05-17-2012, 01:47 PM
I agree, the idea that TM was standing when he was shot goes against more than one witness statement of a scuffle. It still also doesn't explain GZ's injuries. How did he get two black eyes?
As written in the report on George's visit to his family doctor, the black eyes are a result of the slightly broken nose.

i.b.nora
05-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Includes a video of the report and a transcription of the report:

‘Intermediate range’ shot killed Trayvon Martin (http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47458356#47458356)

"The autopsy report on Trayvon Martin shows he died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range.” The official report also found Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle. NBC’s Kerry Sanders reports."

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 02:08 PM
The problem is, no witness AFAIK saw the shot. So we have no way of knowing what position GZ and TM were in at the exact moment. Either one or both could have been partly standing. We just don't know.

Lovelymountains
05-17-2012, 02:20 PM
And how did you come up with the scenario of Trayvon being "spun around" and then shot?
The witnesses that did see something describe the two of them as "wrestling."
There are screams for help heard for some period of time, which certainly doesn't support the idea of Trayvon being "spun around" and then shot.
And while there might be inconsistencies between witnesses, I don't see any statements that support "spun around" then shot scenario.

Nor did I say there was. What I said was there is no witness to the actual shooting of which we are aware. Witnesses were doing other things, chasing their dog, running up stairs, staying away from windows, etc. So, judging from the position of Trayvon's body, i.e. face down with his hands under his body, there is no way he could have been shot while he was on top of GZ. I think it is possible that he was trying to leave, was spun around and shot, and fell face down. It will be interesting when the complete autopsy is released. I do not believe it happened as GZ said, and apparently neither does the state. We shall see.

i.b.nora
05-17-2012, 02:44 PM
I could have sworn this was a thread about Trayvon's Injuries per the leaked autopsy report.

beach
05-17-2012, 03:17 PM
I could have sworn this was a thread about Trayvon's Injuries per the leaked autopsy report.

Locking up.

Will reopen when I remove all the off topic posts.

beach
05-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Okay you guys, it took 2 mods 2 hours to clean this thread up. We removed about 25% of the posts on this thread. Discussion ranging from SYG laws, GZ's injuries, Frank Taaffe (???), etc, etc etc....

No general discussion threads here anymore. Topical threads only. I realize that is a lot of lost work but if you want your posts to stand, you have got to post them on the topical threads. If you choose to post them off topic, be willing to lose them.

I am going to open a new thread for discussion about the physical altercation between TM and GZ because that seemed to be the point where this thread totally went into the ditches.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Marijuana is one drug, not drugs. No other drugs were found in his system.

Complain to abc, since that is the title they are using.

i.b.nora
05-17-2012, 05:27 PM
"Reefer Madness"

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Complain to abc, since that is the title they are using.

I don't care, it was posted as factual. It's not. The end.

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 05:29 PM
"Reefer Madness"

I wonder if I could be declared an expert on marijuana! I have plenty of experience.

beach
05-17-2012, 05:43 PM
Please....let's just get the discussion in one spot for now. Then we can break out into topics.

We do not want to this info to get lost amongst umpteen threads.

Thanks much for your help.


LINK TO DOC DUMP THREAD.


Please link the doc dump thread on any thread here where you see the info being discussed. Thanks for your help! xoxo

Isabelle
05-17-2012, 06:58 PM
Now we have the real thing, the autopsy report. TM has a small abrasion to one knuckle on one hand and a GSW to his chest. Praytell how did TM cause so much damage to GZ, Black Eyes, broken nose, busted lip, abrasions to the back of his head. TM a superman? I thin not, I think GZ got popped in the face when his gun recoiled at close range.

cityslick
05-17-2012, 07:02 PM
Now we have the real thing, the autopsy report. TM has a small abrasion to one knuckle on one hand and a GSW to his chest. Praytell how did TM cause so much damage to GZ, Black Eyes, broken nose, busted lip, abrasions to the back of his head. TM a superman? I thin not, I think GZ got popped in the face when his gun recoiled at close range.

Two different witnesses describe it at GZ on the bottom. 'John' says a black male was on top of a white male, throwing punches MMA (mixed martial arts) style.

Isabelle
05-17-2012, 07:03 PM
BBM

This may not be accurate as I know for a fact that during a tachychardia episode I was injected with a medication in my groin and my heart STOPPED.

I know what I said I simply can't repeat it before the heart started beating again.

You were most likely given a drug called Adenosine.

Isabelle
05-17-2012, 07:09 PM
We do know that the GSW to TM's chest was not a contact wound, but one of intermediate distance. I wish someone could define intermediate distance.

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 07:23 PM
Okay then, so the trajectory of the bullet was directly front to back. No angle cited.

So how does that happen?

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 07:30 PM
Question for a medical person: If you heard that someone had been yelling for 45 seconds would you expect there to be some inflammation to the vocal cords?

Follow up: Would you expect an autopsy to document inflammation if the above is true?

jjenny
05-17-2012, 07:37 PM
We do know that the GSW to TM's chest was not a contact wound, but one of intermediate distance. I wish someone could define intermediate distance.

abc article said distance was anywhere from 1 to 18 inches.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 07:38 PM
Question for a medical person: If you heard that someone had been yelling for 45 seconds would you expect there to be some inflammation to the vocal cords?

Follow up: Would you expect an autopsy to document inflammation if the above is true?

I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure the answer is no.
Otherwise people would be walking around with inflamed vocal cords day in and day out.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 07:46 PM
I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure the answer is no.
Otherwise people would be walking around with inflamed vocal cords day in and day out.

I'm not so sure of your second sentence. I don't know many people who yell for 45+ seconds on a daily basis.

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm not so sure of your second sentence. I don't know many people who yell for 45+ seconds on a daily basis.

Cheerleaders, during the season. I scarred my vocal cords that way and I bet there was temporary inflamation that calmed down quickly when we stopped.

Oh, and rock star groupies!

The rest of us probably not.

I found that question very interesting. It's too late now to test either one.