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BiancaS
05-16-2012, 08:12 AM
They should have taken xrays When I was in a car accident and hit my nose on the dashboard, xrays were taken. The doctor requested the xrays of my nose. I was glad there were no breaks.

It appears that the doctor told him to go to an ENT for that reason. Some doctors offices don't have x-ray capabilities. GZ told him he would not be going. Apparently he wanted it documented exactly as it was and he was not concerned with anything more. MOO.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 08:16 AM
Now that I think about it, I too have to wonder why he needed to see this "family" physician, and refused treatment from all other outsiders (EMTs, nose/throat doc, ER)...no conspiracy, nothing nefarious, just wondering. It could be as simple as he doesn't trust medical professionals...

Where I am from, DO's are as common as MD's. To say that they 'specialize' in osteopathy is a bit of a mischaracterization. While in the most technical sense that may be true, they tend to function much like MD's. They deliver babies, specialize in various types of surgery (orthapedic, etc.), and dx cancer, among other things.

If this was a DO he or his spouse considered to be their primary care physician - or even a Dr. one of them had seen previously for something small, I can certainly see why he'd go see someone familiar after an event such as this.

The article I referenced above states that he went in to be cleared to return to work. To me, that indicates two things. 1) He had no clue the firestorm was coming. He was just wanting to get back to his job - to his normal life; and 2) his injuries looked bad enough that he needed official proof that they would not preclude him from working.

cityslick
05-16-2012, 08:36 AM
The fact of the matter is we are now finding out as more info comes out that he did in fact have injuries. There is no way he's going to cause those injuries after the fact when the cops who saw him that night will simply testify that he didn't have them, thus at that point you might as well throw him in jail anyway.

We also find out that the word of a funeral director means nothing as it pertains to injuries to TM's hands. Many were taking the funeral director's comments that he saw no signs of injury as fact that TM has no injuries. We are learning that is not the case.

Sun48shine
05-16-2012, 09:23 AM
How did he get the black eyes? Don't you get black eyes when you have a broken nose?


My co-worker told that her black eyes comes from sinus problems. :what::floorlaugh:


I just found an interesting article on black eyes --

"Headache may also be present, because the usual cause of a black eye is some sort of head injury."


http://www.emedicinehealth.com/black_eye/page3_em.htm

Could GZ's black eyes have come from the head injury and not a broken nose?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 09:43 AM
Didn't George's dad say he had a cut on his lip?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 09:47 AM
Where I am from, DO's are as common as MD's. To say that they 'specialize' in osteopathy is a bit of a mischaracterization. While in the most technical sense that may be true, they tend to function much like MD's. They deliver babies, specialize in various types of surgery (orthapedic, etc.), and dx cancer, among other things.

If this was a DO he or his spouse considered to be their primary care physician - or even a Dr. one of them had seen previously for something small, I can certainly see why he'd go see someone familiar after an event such as this.

The article I referenced above states that he went in to be cleared to return to work. To me, that indicates two things. 1) He had no clue the firestorm was coming. He was just wanting to get back to his job - to his normal life; and 2) his injuries looked bad enough that he needed official proof that they would not preclude him from working.

So he just got up that morning and went to work and they told him to go to the Dr. and get cleared or else he could not work?

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 09:52 AM
Didn't George's dad say he had a cut on his lip?

I don't know... but I believe I just heard them say on the news that the evidence dump noted that he did.

I don't believe teeth would produce scraping on the knuckles. Cuts, perhaps, as front teeth are sharp... but not scrapes.

If photos of his knuckles are shown to the public, then we will know more.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe that TM would have black eyes. Those don't appear immediately, and his time of death was so close to the time the altercation took place that I don't think there would not have been time for blood to pool there, even if he did have a facial injury. There would have been some detectable physical evidence on his deceased body... but probably not in the form of black eyes.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 09:55 AM
So he just got up that morning and went to work and they told him to go to the Dr. and get cleared or else he could not work?

I have no idea.

It seems weird to me. I was just citing the newspaper source that said that was the reason the dr's office gave for his visit.

Perhaps it wasn't his workplace that required proof, but rather GZ himself felt the need to know if he had a concussion or not before going in to process insurance claims at his job. At least I think that's what he did @ work...

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
How many days after the incident did GZ see the DO?

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 10:14 AM
How did he get the black eyes? Don't you get black eyes when you have a broken nose?

Who knows IF he really had black eyes?

Yes, you certainly can have black eyes from a broken nose. You do not always have black eyes from a broken nose -- and you can have black eyes without a broken or even a bruised nose.

How black were George's eyes?

Were his black eyes documented with photographs that can be proven to be authentic -- not black from his cosmetologist wife, skilled with make-up -- or not black from photoshopping?

I'm sorry. There have already been so many downright flagrant lies coming from the Zimmerman camp that I will not believe anything they say without convincing, authenticated proof.

I find it very strange that George did not make appearances in some public places where several trustworthy people could observe all his injuries for themselves - and later testify to the severity of the injuries. Why was he in hiding the very next day after the shooting?

Even pals Joe Oliver and Francis Taaffe finally admitted they had not seen George since before the killing. I think they finally saw him when the rest of us did -- when George was arrested. How come?

Trayvon's killing did not receive more than small blurbs of news reporting for weeks. And there certainly were no Zimmerman *death threats* early on, either. Don't you think it strange that George was in such deep hiding so fast? _ Why? _ :waitasec:

Florida Native
05-16-2012, 10:22 AM
AFAIK, no one here has accused the doc or his staff of falsifying anything.

What I do see is OPs wondering why if GZ was so severely injured, as he and his friends and family would have us believe, why would he not go to an ER or Urgent Care facility. In addition, he had 108 options in the Sanford Community and he chose to go 14 miles away to a doc whose specialty is Internal Medicine and Osteopathy.

The other point that OPs have made is that GZ could have further injured himself anytime after he left the police station and before going to the doc.

It is heart wrenching to see WS members accused of things that are not posted, AFAIK, here in the Trayvon threads.

I apologize if I used the wrong term. Maybe 'accusation' wasn't right. Suggestion might be a better way to describe what I was trying to say.

As far as going to urgent care, he was treated by EMT's. I don't believe his injuries were life-threatening so I don't believe there was necessarily a need to go to urgent care. I also do not believe a person has to be severely injured to defend themselves. I have no idea what his reasons were for going to that particular doctor. Heck all of my family's doctors are in Seminole County and we live one county over.

As far as whether he injured himself at a later time, the EMT reports should speak to that.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was accusing WS members of anything. I love this place and all its members. I have been accused of basically not caring about the life of an innocent child in these threads at one point, so I do understand your term 'heart-wrenching' and never want to make another WS'r feel that way.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 10:28 AM
I have no idea.

It seems weird to me. I was just citing the newspaper source that said that was the reason the dr's office gave for his visit.

Perhaps it wasn't his workplace that required proof, but rather GZ himself felt the need to know if he had a concussion or not before going in to process insurance claims at his job. At least I think that's what he did @ work...

Could he have been off work prior to the shooting due to an earlier injury or illness?

Doesn't make sense that he needed to get a doctor's clearance the morning after the shooting to go back to work. He couldn't have missed any work yet because of the injuries he received the night before.

Again, something is totally fishy -- like so much else of the story and details. _ :waitasec:

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 10:30 AM
The old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words," convinces me that something is wrong here. The surveillance video shows a George Zimmerman "Bopping" (Excuse me, I couldn't resist) along in the PD, getting out of the patrol car unassisted, not a mark on him. Of course later the "Enhanced video" showed a big red "X" on top of his head which is questionable, at least to me, because the top of his head could not have been injured had the altercation happened the way he claims. The injuries to the back of his head were minor and did not require sutures, according to the doctor he saw the next day, contrary to the claim that they were already healing and would have to be cut open to suture back together. (Although I've heard that with some broken bones growing back together crookedly, a doctor must "rebreak" them to set them straight, but I never heard of reopening a healing cut so it could be sutured together.) So the only definite injury of any import in the doctor's report were the black eyes. Usually a minor injury requiring no treatment. I don't see that as proof that the black eyes could have made him "Fear for his life." In fact, since there's no proof that he even had a broken nose (and doesn't the doctor have his own x-ray machine?) Without further tests i.e. a CAT scan or MRI or just plain old xrays, how could it be determined he had no broken nose? Had a broken nose been suspected, other than Zimmerman's. "I think my nose is broken," why not an xray there in the doctor's office? And if the doctor had no expertise to read an xray, why did he have an xray machine? IMO these injuries as described by the osteopath are minor injuries, certainly not serious enough to make GZ "Fear for his life," unless he's some kind of wuss. I personally think he is, a man who, it is reported would throw a woman across the room panics when someone as strong as he resists his attempt to detain him. I don't know but maybe carrying a gun made him feel more "Manly" and maybe even a bit taller. And for the first time when someone might have fought back, and note the operative words here are, "Fought back,"he got his chance to use his gun.
Nopey, nope, nope. IMO he killed Trayvon Martin not because he feared for his life, but because TM would not allow him to detain him. And the reason he had never shot someone before, you ask? Because it was the first time he decided he wouldn't let this "A**h**e get away." And even if he didn't hate all persons of African-American descent, he certainly hated this one. And, IMO, he hated him because he was black. He fit the description of the ones who got away. Human beings are not fish which "Get away," to be bragged about later as I believe GZ thought he would be doing. He needs to answer for his thoughtlessly taking another human's life and he needs to pay severely, IMO.

Sun48shine
05-16-2012, 10:30 AM
I apologize if I used the wrong term. Maybe 'accusation' wasn't right. Suggestion might be a better way to describe what I was trying to say.

As far as going to urgent care, he was treated by EMT's. I don't believe his injuries were life-threatening so I don't believe there was necessarily a need to go to urgent care. I also do not believe a person has to be severely injured to defend themselves. I have no idea what his reasons were for going to that particular doctor. Heck all of my family's doctors are in Seminole County and we live one county over.

As far as whether he injured himself at a later time, the EMT reports should speak to that.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was accusing WS members of anything. I love this place and all its members. I have been accused of basically not caring about the life of an innocent child in these threads at one point, so I do understand your term 'heart-wrenching' and never want to make another WS'r feel that way.


We understand. We all are doing our own detective work by looking outside the box and trying to view this from all angles (i.e, looking at the what ifs and the what nots).

beach
05-16-2012, 10:45 AM
Several MSM sources have reported results from George Zimmerman's medical records.

The official docs have not yet been released to the public.

Discuss here. Civilly and respectfully.


GZ's head injuries likely support self-defense claim - CBS Link. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/)


ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting (http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532)



See Media Links thread for more links.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:46 AM
Thanks for the new thread Beach.


A few links to start us off...

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/14/11704337-prosecutor-files-evidence-witness-list-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-case?lite

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/256660/4/ABC-Zimmermans-Injuries-Detailed-in-Trayvon-Martin-Case

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57435065/court-records-show-george-zimmerman-had-two-black-eyes-broken-nose/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/15/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman_n_1518562.html?ref=black-voices&icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=161188

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:48 AM
George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes and lacerations on the back of his head the day after his fatal confrontation with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, ABC-TV news reported Tuesday night.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:50 AM
A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.





The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain. The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month.




http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
So, a broken nose, a hurt back, two lacerations on the back of th head (1" and 1/4" long), bruised upper lip and cheek, and two black eyes.

IMO this (along with the new info on TM's skinned knuckles) should put the questions regarding if GZ was beaten by TM to rest.
He was.

Even though we couldn't see any injuries in the PD video.
Even though the 2nd ambulance was turned away.
Even though there was no blood on his shirt/jacket.

JMO

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Thanks for the new thread Beach.


A few links to start us off...

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/14/11704337-prosecutor-files-evidence-witness-list-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-case?lite

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-injuries-20120515_1_sanford-police-station-medical-report-abc-news-reports

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/256660/4/ABC-Zimmermans-Injuries-Detailed-in-Trayvon-Martin-Case

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57435065/court-records-show-george-zimmerman-had-two-black-eyes-broken-nose/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/15/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman_n_1518562.html?ref=black-voices&icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=161188

Don't all those links just talk about what ABC released?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 10:54 AM
So, a broken nose, a hurt back, two lacerations on the back of th head (1" and 1/4" long), bruised upper lip and cheek, and two black eyes.

IMO this (along with the new info on TM's skinned knuckles) should put the questions regarding if GZ was beaten by TM to rest.
He was.

Even though we couldn't see any injuries in the PD video.
Even though the 2nd ambulance was turned away.
Even though there was no blood on his shirt/jacket.

JMO

Is a likely broken nose a broken nose?

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/nosel.jpg


Webcast: George Zimmerman Medical Records - YouTube

Elley Mae
05-16-2012, 10:57 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/

The report also shows Zimmerman said he felt stressed and "occasional nausea when thinking about the violence." Despite the head injuries, he wasn't diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor recommended that Zimmerman be evaluated by a psychologist.

bbm
I think the Dr. recommended the psychologist for what I bolded.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 11:01 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/

The report also shows Zimmerman said he felt stressed and "occasional nausea when thinking about the violence." Despite the head injuries, he wasn't diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor recommended that Zimmerman be evaluated by a psychologist.

bbm
I think the Dr. recommended the psychologist for what I bolded.

You may be right......I just assumed because of the Rx's he was already taking that those has been prescribed by a psychologist.

Just K
05-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Well, I stopped the video and captured images of the medical report. SURPRISE!! Things are not exactly as ABC reported and everyone else is repeating! GZ told the Doctor he had a broken nose, the doctor said it was probably the case and recommended he see an ENT. GZ told the doctor he would not be going right on the spot! And, contrary to what his brother and father had said, the report says there were no sutures needed due to the "well approximated skin margins." They had said he should have had stitches, but it was too late.

He was also complaining about his tonsils and his joints were achy. And he has irritable bowel syndrome.

He did get some pain pills out of the visit.

By the way, this ABC video confirms that he refused to go to the hospital the night of the incident.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

So the doc referred him to a ENT and again GZ overrides the trained professional.

A spreadsheet of all the times GZ is advised, by a professional, a person in authority or and expert to do this or that and instead does exactly what GZ wants could exemplify his aversion to advice.

That man is his own worse enemy.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:03 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57435247/george-zimmermans-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-likely-bolster-self-defense-claims/

The report also shows Zimmerman said he felt stressed and "occasional nausea when thinking about the violence." Despite the head injuries, he wasn't diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor recommended that Zimmerman be evaluated by a psychologist.

bbm
I think the Dr. recommended the psychologist for what I bolded.

What the Dr. actually wrote in his report:


The doctor noted that it was "imperative" that Zimmerman "be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation."

they put the {sic} in there to stress that is what he really wrote.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Which is more fragile and apt to rupture if they 'collide'? Skin on the face, or skin on the knuckles?

One would hope that the medical examiner attempted to identify if there were particles of anything in the damaged skin of TM's knuckles. Dirt? Skin cells from GZ? Clothing fibers?

daisy7
05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
Is a likely broken nose a broken nose?

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/nosel.jpg


Webcast: George Zimmerman Medical Records - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3GYS4O-u8)

Is it typical that there would be a 1 (or 2?) page narrative from a doctor's visit? Every time I go to the doc or take my boys to their pedi, the doc may write some stuff down on a chart or enter it into the computer. But, I have never seen any medical records like this narrative.

whiteangora
05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
How did he get the black eyes? Don't you get black eyes when you have a broken nose?

You can get black eyes without having a broken nose. Everyone bruises differently, and has different reactions to injuries. I had 2 black eyes once without having a broken nose simply by sitting next to someone who abruptly raised up his arm and accidently hit me in the nose.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 11:08 AM
You may be right......I just assumed because of the Rx's he was already taking that those has been prescribed by a psychologist.


I believe one needs a license to practice medicine in order to prescribe an rx.

A psychologist would not have such credentials.

A psychiatrist, yes, but a psychologist, no. At least not in my state.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 11:12 AM
Is it typical that there would be a 1 (or 2?) page narrative from a doctor's visit? Every time I go to the doc or take my boys to their pedi, the doc may write some stuff down on a chart or enter it into the computer. But, I have never seen any medical records like this narrative.

Two things:

1) This wasn't an ordinary visit to the dr. GZ presented with multiple wounds on different parts of his body, and they were a result of an altercation in which someone died. I think that would result in the doctor needing to use more words to describe things than a child with a common cold or even a broken arm.

2) Dr's frequently (usually, even, I'd say) say their notes and recollections into a recorder later that day, and then a transcriptionist listens to the recording and types out the notes. These may be the things a dr. said into a recorder after he was no longer in GZ's presence, and not what the dr. himself physically wrote on a chart.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 11:12 AM
Don't all those links just talk about what ABC released?

There are differences within the articles.
Some more detailed than others.

beach
05-16-2012, 11:14 AM
Is it typical that there would be a 1 (or 2?) page narrative from a doctor's visit? Every time I go to the doc or take my boys to their pedi, the doc may write some stuff down on a chart or enter it into the computer. But, I have never seen any medical records like this narrative.

He obviously did both, Daisy.

Narratives are not uncommon, however they are usually done for a reason. I imagine both the prosecution and the defense wanted one and it was requested.
In other instances, narratives are dictated for the benefit of another physician to whom they may be referring the patient.

jjenny
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
I believe one needs a license to practice medicine in order to prescribe an rx.

A psychologist would not have such credentials.

A psychiatrist, yes, but a psychologist, no. At least not in my state.

It is also my understanding. Psychiatrists can prescribe medicine and have a medical degree (MD). Psychologists don't have an MD and therefore normally can not prescribe medicine.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 11:20 AM
Ok so the psychologist can't prescribe, my bad. But I still think GZ had issues before since he was taking those types of medicine and seeing a psychologist.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:23 AM
There are differences within the articles.
Some more detailed than others.

None of them claim though they have the report though do they? Everything in them is from what ABC released?

2goldfish
05-16-2012, 11:28 AM
so....trayvon got a few hits in after being attacked, before being shot to death.

proof of trayvon trying to stand his ground.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 11:29 AM
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

So the doc referred him to a ENT and again GZ overrides the trained professional.

A spreadsheet of all the times GZ is advised, by a professional, a person in authority or and expert to do this or that and instead does exactly what GZ wants could exemplify his aversion to advice.

That man is his own worse enemy.

There are a number of things we do not know.

1) What kind of insurance did GZ have? He was not a man of means, and specialists tend to be expensive.

2) Did the Dr. say it was imperative that he see an ENT, or just suggest that he could or should?

3) Had GZ had a broken nose before? Or had anyone close to him? Was he under the impression that there's not much that can be done for them, anyway?

4) Do physicians sometimes refer patients to specialists as a means to cover themselves? My experience has been that they sometimes suggest a visit with a specialist as a precautionary thing, and that more often than not the specialist doesn't do anything additional. In our sue-happy society, sometimes physicians feel compelled to cover all bases. As the patient, GZ may have simply wanted to give his fresh injury a day or two to heal before forking over specialist-sized dollars to be told that he was going to be fine.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 11:29 AM
so....trayvon got a few hits in after being attacked, before being shot to death.

proof of trayvon trying to stand his ground.

hmmmm.....good point.

beach
05-16-2012, 11:29 AM
None of them claim though they have the report though do they? Everything in them is from what ABC released?

No - the official reports have not yet been released. Good gracious, I thought we were all clear on that! lol

See the thread title re: "leaked reports".

daisy7
05-16-2012, 11:32 AM
I believe one needs a license to practice medicine in order to prescribe an rx.

A psychologist would not have such credentials.

A psychiatrist, yes, but a psychologist, no. At least not in my state.

Psychologists can not prescribe meds. in FL.

LynnM
05-16-2012, 11:32 AM
I believe one needs a license to practice medicine in order to prescribe an rx.

A psychologist would not have such credentials.

A psychiatrist, yes, but a psychologist, no. At least not in my state.

That's true. It sounds like George already had a psychologist and that may have led to the prescriptions he was reported to be taking. Many psychologists refer their patients to a psychiatrist who prescribes medication based on the diagnosis made by the psychologist.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:39 AM
No - the official reports have not yet been released. Good gracious, I thought we were all clear on that! lol

See the thread title re: "leaked reports".




That is not what I am talking about. This is Georges medical report and George and his lawyer can do anything with it they want. It really is not a leak if one of them gave it to the news anonymously. I did not see any court stamp on it from the video.

The autopsy report is property of the State given to the Defense. Any information on it is a leak until it is released to the public. They are very different things.

As far as I know ABC is the only one that has been given this medical report and I was just trying to find out if anyone else was given it.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 11:43 AM
Could he have been off work prior to the shooting due to an earlier injury or illness?

Doesn't make sense that he needed to get a doctor's clearance the morning after the shooting to go back to work. He couldn't have missed any work yet because of the injuries he received the night before.

Again, something is totally fishy -- like so much else of the story and details. _ :waitasec:

According to the quote in suzihawk's link in this thread, he went in to work the next day to tell them what was going on. At which point, presumably, they sent him to the doc to get cleared to work. Probably a worker's comp. issue.

daisy7
05-16-2012, 11:43 AM
He obviously did both, Daisy.

Narratives are not uncommon, however they are usually done for a reason. I imagine both the prosecution and the defense wanted one and it was requested.
In other instances, narratives are dictated for the benefit of another physician to whom they may be referring the patient.

So, this narrative could have been written after the Dr. visit? I'm just trying to understand this. I have seen my son's medical records when we switched pedis and there was nothing like this in their records.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Sun48shine;
They should have taken xrays When I was in a car accident and hit my nose on the dashboard, xrays were taken. The doctor requested the xrays of my nose. I was glad there were no breaks.
Originally Posted by BiancaS;
It appears that the doctor told him to go to an ENT for that reason. Some doctors offices don't have x-ray capabilities. GZ told him he would not be going. Apparently he wanted it documented exactly as it was and he was not concerned with anything more. MOO.bbm

Funny thing, BiancaS, it appears that the "Altamonte Family Practice" does indeed have X-ray capabilities right there within the office. They have TWO X-ray techs listed as employed there.

I guess George not only did NOT want to see an ENT physician, he also apparently did NOT want his IFFY *broken nose* X-rayed right there at the DO's clinic.

Interesting, eh?

How broken do you suppose his nose really was? _ :waitasec:

http://www.altamontefamilypractice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

jjenny
05-16-2012, 11:47 AM
So, this narrative could have been written after the Dr. visit? I'm just trying to understand this. I have seen my son's medical records when we switched pedis and there was nothing like this in their records.

If you need a letter from a doctor for whatever reason you can request that doctor writes you a letter.

Florida Native
05-16-2012, 11:51 AM
So, this narrative could have been written after the Dr. visit? I'm just trying to understand this. I have seen my son's medical records when we switched pedis and there was nothing like this in their records.

I have gone through many medical records for my job and it is not uncommon to see reports like this.

Also, don't know how all doctors do it but my pediatrician always picks up the phone and begins giving a narrative of the appointment as we are leaving. I always assumed that this was being transcribed at some point.

K_Z
05-16-2012, 11:52 AM
If photos of his knuckles are shown to the public, then we will know more.

Autopsy photos are not released to the public, for good reason.


How black were George's eyes?

Were his black eyes documented with photographs that can be proven to be authentic -- not black from his cosmetologist wife, skilled with make-up -- or not black from photoshopping?

There would have been no reason for a family practice doc or PA to take photos of GZ's black eyes. That is not part of any standard care or office visit. If photos for legal purposes are needed, such as to document domestic abuse injuries, etc, a LE photographer takes those. And any health care povider worth their salt could spot "make up" enhanced injuries during exam.

Altamonte Family Physicians is a very small clinic-- one doc, 2 PA's, and office staff. Unless this clinic is co-located with other lab and radiology resources, it's unlikely they have extensive imaging capability on site. That is very expensive and cost prohibitive for the size of that practice-- all of the regulations that have to be implemented with a radiology dept, building codes and shielding, etc.

There would have been no reason, with a minor cartilage nasal fracture, to do any kind of imaging to "document" broken cartilage at the FP clinic. If the doc (or EMS) suspected serious facal injury, there would have been recommendations for immediate urgent care/ ER, and imaging to rule out Le Fort fractures, which are facial and orbital fractures. None of the medical providers thought his injuries looked serious enough to get images. A referral to an ENT is pretty much standard-- and I took that comment as a referral for the tonsil complaint as much as for the nasal fracture.

I'm just not understanding why there is so much criticism and suspicion of the FP clinic personnel? I think that is not logical at all, and very unfair. There is absolutely nothing at all that has been released that should cause any of us at this time to criticize the doc/ PAs, or clinic staff. They were just doing their job the day GZ was seen there. There was just no reason for them to suspect or cover up ANYTHING. It doesn't matter why he chose that particular clinic and docs-- they were a valid choice for the level of care he was seeking.

If criticism of medical documentation and care is WARRANTED according to the evidence, then that is a different story. At this point, there is a certain zeal to cast suspicion over anyone who has come into the slightest contact with GZ. In the case of these professionals, that is VERY unfair and unwarranted. At this point, I haven't seen the record, so I don't feel anyone (myself included) should criticize the efforts of the health care providers. I am sure they have been dreading the day their names would be made public in this case, because of all of the extreme hate and rage that has been heaped on the PATIENT they saw in their clinic. Who they didn't even know would become so hated on a national level.

For just a minute-- imagine someone you know works at that clinic. Imagine the concerns they have for the negative publicity impacting their workplace, potential loss of patients, potentially decreased revenue from lower office visits, etc. Not to mention possible fears for their own safety if a crowd decides to picket or protest outside their clinic. Harrassment of witnesses is a real and valid concern in this very inflamed case. The providers from this clinic will likely be named as defense witnesses if and when this comes to trial.

I'm just very disturbed that anyone would feel it is valid and acceptable to indirectly bash the health care providers in this situation. If there emerges good reason to heap criticism on them, such as substandard documentation or care, then that is fair game. But to bash them and insinuate that they were complicit in some kind of conspiracy to falsify medical records, or imply that they were a "bad" or "wrong" choice because other docs were closer to his home, or obliquely criticize the credentials of an osteopathic physician because he is not an MD, is ridiculous, imo.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:53 AM
The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa


I wonder who told him he needed a "legal clearance"? I have never heard of that.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:55 AM
If you need a letter from a doctor for whatever reason you can request that doctor writes you a letter.

I don't think that is a letter or note to his work.

cityslick
05-16-2012, 11:58 AM
Who knows IF he really had black eyes?

Yes, you certainly can have black eyes from a broken nose. You do not always have black eyes from a broken nose -- and you can have black eyes without a broken or even a bruised nose.

How black were George's eyes?

Were his black eyes documented with photographs that can be proven to be authentic -- not black from his cosmetologist wife, skilled with make-up -- or not black from photoshopping?

I'm sorry. There have already been so many downright flagrant lies coming from the Zimmerman camp that I will not believe anything they say without convincing, authenticated proof.

I find it very strange that George did not make appearances in some public places where several trustworthy people could observe all his injuries for themselves - and later testify to the severity of the injuries. Why was he in hiding the very next day after the shooting?

Even pals Joe Oliver and Francis Taaffe finally admitted they had not seen George since before the killing. I think they finally saw him when the rest of us did -- when George was arrested. How come?

Trayvon's killing did not receive more than small blurbs of news reporting for weeks. And there certainly were no Zimmerman *death threats* early on, either. Don't you think it strange that George was in such deep hiding so fast? _ Why? _ :waitasec:

It's coming from a doctor's report. I should pull up posts from early on where everyone stated emphatically that they want to see to doctor's report as proof of injuries.

First it's the police report that wasn't accurate in saying GZ had injuries. Then it's the video that's been altered. Then the photo on the back of the head is a fake. Now a doctor's report says he had injuries.

I mean, how many times do we continue to dismiss this stuff. What if the EMT report also says he had injuries.

Florida Native
05-16-2012, 11:59 AM
Autopsy photos are not released to the public, for good reason.



There would have been no reason for a family practice doc or PA to take photos of GZ's black eyes. That is not part of any standard care or office visit. If photos for legal purposes are needed, such as to document domestic abuse injuries, etc, a LE photographer takes those. And any health care povider worth their salt could spot "make up" enhanced injuries during exam.

Altamonte Family Physicians is a very small clinic-- one doc, 2 PA's, and office staff. Unless this clinic is co-located with other lab and radiology resources, it's unlikely they have extensive imaging capability on site. That is very expensive and cost prohibitive for the size of that practice-- all of the regulations that have to be implemented with a radiology dept, building codes and shielding, etc.

There would have been no reason, with a minor cartilage nasal fracture, to do any kind of imaging to "document" broken cartilage at the FP clinic. If the doc (or EMS) suspected serious facal injury, there would have been recommendations for immediate urgent care/ ER, and imaging to rule out Le Fort fractures, which are facial and orbital fractures. None of the medical providers thought his injuries looked serious enough to get images. A referral to an ENT is pretty much standard-- and I took that comment as a referral for the tonsil complaint as much as for the nasal fracture.

I'm just not understanding why there is so much criticism and suspicion of the FP clinic personnel? I think that is not logical at all, and very unfair. There is absolutely nothing at all that has been released that should cause any of us at this time to criticize the doc/ PAs, or clinic staff. They were just doing their job the day GZ was seen there. There was just no reason for them to suspect or cover up ANYTHING. It doesn't matter why he chose that particular clinic and docs-- they were a valid choice for the level of care he was seeking.

If criticism of medical documentation and care is WARRANTED according to the evidence, then that is a different story. At this point, there is a certain zeal to cast suspicion over anyone who has come into the slightest contact with GZ. In the case of these professionals, that is VERY unfair and unwarranted. At this point, I haven't seen the record, so I don't feel anyone (myself included) should criticize the efforts of the health care providers. I am sure they have been dreading the day their names would be made public in this case, because of all of the extreme hate and rage that has been heaped on the PATIENT they saw in their clinic. Who they didn't even know would become so hated on a national level.

For just a minute-- imagine someone you know works at that clinic. Imagine the concerns they have for the negative publicity impacting their workplace, potential loss of patients, potentially decreased revenue from lower office visits, etc. Not to mention possible fears for their own safety if a crowd decides to picket or protest outside their clinic. Harrassment of witnesses is a real and valid concern in this very inflamed case. The providers from this clinic will likely be named as defense witnesses if and when this comes to trial.

I'm just very disturbed that anyone would feel it is valid and acceptable to indirectly bash the health care providers in this situation. If there emerges good reason to heap criticism on them, such as substandard documentation or care, then that is fair game. But to bash them and insinuate that they were complicit in some kind of conspiracy to falsify medical records, or imply that they were a "bad" or "wrong" choice because other docs were closer to his home, or obliquely criticize the credentials of an osteopathic physician because he is not an MD, is ridiculous, imo.

Thanks was just not enough. :clap: You said what I was trying to say so much better.

I absolutely understand everyone floating theories, etc. My goodness how I have done that myself on so many cases (i.e. Casey Anthony). I guess that because I have a personal connection that I can't talk about now, I see things differently.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 12:01 PM
But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa


I would really like to see the dates on this report. Did George go back to this Dr. at a later time and tell him he did not go to another Dr. or did George just tell him right there in the office he would not go to another Dr.? The wording is funny.

chefmom
05-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Am I remembering correctly that MO'M waived GZ's right to a speedy trial and/or a chance to go before a judge and plead SYG for a chance to have the case thrown out? If so, I wonder why, if they had records that show so many corroberating injuries? I would have asked to plead it before a judge in the hopes that he would toss it based on SYG, and then if he didn't, prepare for a trial.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 12:04 PM
Am I remembering correctly that MO'M waived GZ's right to a speedy trial and/or a chance to go before a judge and plead SYG for a chance to have the case thrown out? If so, I wonder why, if they had records that show so many corroberating injuries? I would have asked to plead it before a judge in the hopes that he would toss it based on SYG, and then if he didn't, prepare for a trial.

He waived the right to a speedy trial. He did not waive his right to an SYG hearing.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 12:07 PM
A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.





The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain. The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month.




http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

Was it ABC that released the photo of bleeding on the back of GZ's head?

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 12:13 PM
Is a likely broken nose a broken nose?

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/nosel.jpg


Webcast: George Zimmerman Medical Records - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3GYS4O-u8)

Is the medical document on line anywhere for full viewing. That actually looks like a set of discharge instructions and not the findings of an exam!

beach
05-16-2012, 12:14 PM
I'm just not understanding why there is so much criticism and suspicion of the FP clinic personnel? I think that is not logical at all, and very unfair. There is absolutely nothing at all that has been released that should cause any of us at this time to criticize the doc/ PAs, or clinic staff. They were just doing their job the day GZ was seen there. There was just no reason for them to suspect or cover up ANYTHING. It doesn't matter why he chose that particular clinic and docs-- they were a valid choice for the level of care he was seeking.

If criticism of medical documentation and care is WARRANTED according to the evidence, then that is a different story. At this point, there is a certain zeal to cast suspicion over anyone who has come into the slightest contact with GZ. In the case of these professionals, that is VERY unfair and unwarranted. At this point, I haven't seen the record, so I don't feel anyone (myself included) should criticize the efforts of the health care providers. I am sure they have been dreading the day their names would be made public in this case, because of all of the extreme hate and rage that has been heaped on the PATIENT they saw in their clinic. Who they didn't even know would become so hated on a national level.

For just a minute-- imagine someone you know works at that clinic. Imagine the concerns they have for the negative publicity impacting their workplace, potential loss of patients, potentially decreased revenue from lower office visits, etc. Not to mention possible fears for their own safety if a crowd decides to picket or protest outside their clinic. Harrassment of witnesses is a real and valid concern in this very inflamed case. The providers from this clinic will likely be named as defense witnesses if and when this comes to trial.

I'm just very disturbed that anyone would feel it is valid and acceptable to indirectly bash the health care providers in this situation. If there emerges good reason to heap criticism on them, such as substandard documentation or care, then that is fair game. But to bash them and insinuate that they were complicit in some kind of conspiracy to falsify medical records, or imply that they were a "bad" or "wrong" choice because other docs were closer to his home, or obliquely criticize the credentials of an osteopathic physician because he is not an MD, is ridiculous, imo.

Respectfully snipped; emphasis mine


Thank you! AGREED.


Mod note:

Just catching up on this thread and addressing this now.


The bashing and these ridiculous accusations without any merit whatsoever that are insinuating these medical professionals falsified anything or had any motive other than doing their jobs in a professional manner STOPS NOW. Unless you have something tangible to support that claim, drop this whole line of discussion now.

We're not going to accuse anyone of anything so vile unless there is some sort of proof to back it up.

Further posts like that w/o a link to back up the accusation will result in TOs.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 12:15 PM
Is the medical document on line anywhere for full viewing. That actually looks like a set of discharge instructions and not the findings of an exam! I don't think ABC has released it yet except in the videos.

i.b.nora
05-16-2012, 12:16 PM
According to a tiny report by Associated Press, "Zimmerman was treated Feb. 27 at Altamonte Family Practice."

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799523/defense-has-discovery-in-neighborhood.html

If you look up Altamonte Family Practice you will see that it is headed up by Andrew E. Krupitsky, D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy) and two female Physician Assistants. In addition there is a large office staff (all female).

When Crump discussed the report on Anderson 360 last night, he kept referencing a female so I assume from that that George was actually seen by one of the Physician Assistants. Since one of them is most interested in Pediatrics and Women's Health, it is likely that George was seen by the other PA.

Of course, until we see the actual document, it is all guess work based on what O'Mara has shared with ABC and what ABC has shared with other news organizations. And, O'Mara did as much as say he was planning on releasing info. It's in an earlier WESH article on either Monday or Tuesday.

http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31065220/detail.html

jjenny
05-16-2012, 12:17 PM
Respectfully snipped; emphasis mine


Thank you! AGREED.


Mod note:

Just catching up on this thread and addressing this now.


The bashing and these ridiculous accusations without any merit whatsoever that are insinuating these medical professionals falsified anything or had any motive other than doing their jobs in a professional manner STOPS NOW. Unless you have something tangible to support that claim, drop this whole line of discussion now.

We're not going to accuse anyone of anything so vile unless there is some sort of proof to back it up.

Further posts like that w/o a link to back up the accusation will result in TOs.

ITA. Just because someone has a family physician doesn't mean that family physician is going to falsify any medical evidence. Some insurance plans REQUIRE that a person declares a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER. You have to go to your PCP first before going to any specialists. That doesn't imply any sort of special relationship that would make a medical professional to falsify any documents.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
All this is, IMO.....is MOM trying to $pin. He has continued to drag his feet with the evidence being released and this is why, he wants to leak what is favorable to GZ first.

magnolia
05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa


I wonder who told him he needed a "legal clearance"? I have never heard of that.

Legitimate/valid are synonyms of legal.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 12:22 PM
Wonder if donations to the account have dropped off and this 'leak' is the stimulus to try to increase activity!

sleonardelli
05-16-2012, 12:23 PM
I think GZ used the reason "legal excuse" cause it was easier than explaining the real reason he needed the appt. I also believe it was recommended by someone to "document" his injuries in case he was charged.

I still believe Trayvon was "standing his ground" but I am moving closer to just sitting on the fence on this one.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 12:23 PM
The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa


I wonder who told him he needed a "legal clearance"? I have never heard of that.

His employer, for work. comp. purposes, imo.

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 12:24 PM
When a patient presents to a doctor, MD or Osteopath, the circumstances which caused his injuries can only be described by the patient. A doctor then treats the patient for the injury no matter what he/she is told caused them and usually accepts the story on faith. So. In my post regarding GZ's injuries nowhere did I criticize the doctor. I did question why no xrays of his nose which he contends was broken were taken. I thought it was a valid question and I still do, considering the DO has two xray technicians and at least one xray machine. One assumes from that that the DO can read xrays and I wonder why he did not take an xray of GZ's nose since apparently GZ thought it was broken. IMO the onus is on GZ to prove the broken nose and apparently he refused to go to a specialist, which is what the DO did suggest, quite properly.
I do not know this man nor do I know the quality of his patient care but since he is Board Certified and licensed in FL, I must assume he is qualified to practice there.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 12:25 PM
I want EMT documents, police taken photos of GZ frontal and side views, Trayvon's autopsy report!

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 12:26 PM
But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa


I would really like to see the dates on this report. Did George go back to this Dr. at a later time and tell him he did not go to another Dr. or did George just tell him right there in the office he would not go to another Dr.? The wording is funny.

This is a perfect example of why words matter, and why it's a dangerous practice to let ones opinion hinge too much on a statement in a newspaper.

What you quoted said that he declined *hospitalization*. I have never once, in any other report, seen it suggested that he needed *hospitalization*.

From dictionary.com:
hospitalization, noun
the act, process, or state of being hospitalized.

Also from dictionary.com:
hospitalized: verb
to place in a hospital for medical care or observation: The doctor hospitalized grandfather as soon as she checked his heart.

Being checked out in an ER and being *hospitalized* are not the same things...

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 12:26 PM
ITA. Just because someone has a family physician doesn't mean that family physician is going to falsify any medical evidence. Some insurance plans REQUIRE that a person declares a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER. You have to go to your PCP first before going to any specialists. That doesn't imply any sort of special relationship that would make a medical professional to falsify any documents.

I would never assert that a doctor would falsify records for a patient/friend/acquantance or anyone else for that matter and I disassociate myself from any such suggestion.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 12:31 PM
IMO......no xrays because they would prove a "likely broken" nose.....wasn't.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't think ABC has released it yet except in the videos.

Released just enough to stir up some carp! And maybe to increase donations to GZ's legal fund!

magnolia
05-16-2012, 12:36 PM
When a patient presents to a doctor, MD or Osteopath, the circumstances which caused his injuries can only be described by the patient. A doctor then treats the patient for the injury no matter what he/she is told caused them and usually accepts the story on faith. So. In my post regarding GZ's injuries nowhere did I criticize the doctor. I did question why no xrays of his nose which he contends was broken were taken. I thought it was a valid question and I still do, considering the DO has two xray technicians and at least one xray machine. One assumes from that that the DO can read xrays and I wonder why he did not take an xray of GZ's nose since apparently GZ thought it was broken. IMO the onus is on GZ to prove the broken nose and apparently he refused to go to a specialist, which is what the DO did suggest, quite properly.
I do not know this man nor do I know the quality of his patient care but since he is Board Certified and licensed in FL, I must assume he is qualified to practice there.

Doctors do not recommend x-ray films and blood work routinely because these tests do not alter the course of treatment.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/broken-nose

jjenny
05-16-2012, 12:36 PM
Released just enough to stir up some carp! And maybe to increase donations to GZ's legal fund!

After all the complains about wanting to see medical records, I can't believe some posters here complain that medical records were leaked. All of this information is supposed to be released per Florida sunshine laws.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 12:36 PM
IMO......no xrays because they would prove a "likely broken" nose.....wasn't.

With two visible black eyes and a doc saying likely/possible/probable (not sure the exact wording) fracture, George would have had no reason to know that his nose was not broken. And that would be true under any circumstances. My assumption is that he didn't go for an x-ray b/c he knew or felt that it was unecessary just to confirm what he already knew. There would have been no further tx, just a big bill for the x-ray or whatever technology was used. Who needs that. I wouldn't have gone either. jmo

K_Z
05-16-2012, 12:38 PM
Is it typical that there would be a 1 (or 2?) page narrative from a doctor's visit? Every time I go to the doc or take my boys to their pedi, the doc may write some stuff down on a chart or enter it into the computer. But, I have never seen any medical records like this narrative.

Yes-- this is quite typical. Particularly with the kind of medical documentation software used vs "hand writing records" as we did in the "old" days (lol!). Records are typically set up as templates. If you print a hard copy, all of the templated areas (even if unpopulated) may print out.

And some providers document LOTS and LOTS all the time....others are more "lean and mean" in their documentation. With the advent of dictation systems, there is more incentive to document more, rather than less, as the provider simply talks into the telephone device. I'd have to see the pages themselves in their entirety to see what kind of system may have been used, and to comment further about the depth and quality of the documentation from the provider. Do we know who he saw? Did he see the D.O., or one of his PA's?

Is the record available for review anywhere yet, or just the screen caps?

jjenny
05-16-2012, 12:38 PM
With two visible black eyes and a doc saying likely/possible/probable (not sure the exact wording) fracture, George would have had no reason to know that his nose was not broken. And that would be true under any circumstances. My assumption is that he didn't go for an x-ray b/c he knew or felt that it was unecessary just to confirm what he already knew. There would have been no further tx, just a big bill for the x-ray or whatever technology was used. Who needs that. I wouldn't have gone either. jmo

Where is the "probable" nose fracture even coming from? From the part of the records shown by abc, I didn't see any "probable, possible or likely" next to words "closed fracture."

Reality Orlando
05-16-2012, 12:41 PM
bbm

Funny thing, BiancaS, it appears that the "Altamonte Family Practice" does indeed have X-ray capabilities right there within the office. They have TWO X-ray techs listed as employed there.

I guess George not only did NOT want to see an ENT physician, he also apparently did NOT want his IFFY *broken nose* X-rayed right there at the DO's clinic.

Interesting, eh?

How broken do you suppose his nose really was? _ :waitasec:

http://www.altamontefamilypractice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

Do we know if Z had insurance? Also, I know when my nose was broken the docs told me it was obvious it was broken and there really wasn't any reason to do an X-ray as there wasn't anything they could do and that it would heal on it's own.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 12:43 PM
After all the complains about wanting to see medical records, I can't believe some posters here complain that medical records were leaked. All of this information is supposed to be released per Florida sunshine laws.

And I want it ALL. Not just selected bits and pieces. I for one am not convinced this dr.'s report is completely favorable to GZ. I want to see everything and make my own mind up.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 12:43 PM
Where is the "probable" nose fracture even coming from? From the part of the records shown by abc, I didn't see any "probable, possible or likely" next to words "closed fracture."

From a screen cap in the thread about George's medical records. I just went and looked and it says "likely" in the discussion section. I don't know what it says in the dx section, though.

marlame
05-16-2012, 12:47 PM
All this is, IMO.....is MOM trying to $pin. He has continued to drag his feet with the evidence being released and this is why, he wants to leak what is favorable to GZ first.

AMEN!!! :rocker: This is exactly what I have thought since last night! MOM withholds the documents but leaked is:

1.) GZ medical report listing injuries.
2.) Autopsy says Trayvon showed signs of injury to knuckles.

With all of the States evidence against GZ turned over to MOM... this is all they chose to leak to media? :floorlaugh:

What info wasn't leaked was the bullet trajectory info...Hmmm! :waitasec:

Looks like the DE-fense has entered the SPIN ZONE! I hope we can read the documents soon...:please:

~JMHO :moo:

gxm
05-16-2012, 12:49 PM
Is it typical that there would be a 1 (or 2?) page narrative from a doctor's visit? Every time I go to the doc or take my boys to their pedi, the doc may write some stuff down on a chart or enter it into the computer. But, I have never seen any medical records like this narrative.

IMO, yes, especially when an injury is involved. I've always figured it was CYA, in case I don't do what they tell me to do and my condition worsens.

K_Z
05-16-2012, 12:53 PM
This is a perfect example of why words matter, and why it's a dangerous practice to let ones opinion hinge too much on a statement in a newspaper.

What you quoted said that he declined *hospitalization*. I have never once, in any other report, seen it suggested that he needed *hospitalization*.

From dictionary.com:
hospitalization, noun
the act, process, or state of being hospitalized.

Also from dictionary.com:
hospitalized: verb
to place in a hospital for medical care or observation: The doctor hospitalized grandfather as soon as she checked his heart.

Being checked out in an ER and being *hospitalized* are not the same things...

The EMS report will document that the patient "declined transport". There is no indication from what we have with the FP visit that he was considered for admission to the hospital at that point. And I can't imagine why he would have been with relatively minor injuries that can be managed as an outpatient.

I'm in agreement with those who have opined that it may have been GZs workplace who directed him to be seen and cleared before returning to work. It's entirely possible GZ himself did not independently seek the appointment because of his injuries.

But aside from that, it is what it is. He clearly had some injuries that were documented and examined by a licensed provider. And it was perfectly OK for him to see a PA in this instance. Both of the PA's listed have impeccable educational credentials-- far exceeding the minimum necessary for a PA. I really am concerned with all of the chatter that the PA (if that is who he saw) is going to be bashed because she is not a physician. I can see it coming, sadly.
I hope I'm wrong.

suzihawk
05-16-2012, 12:54 PM
After all the complains about wanting to see medical records, I can't believe some posters here complain that medical records were leaked. All of this information is supposed to be released per Florida sunshine laws.

It's supposed to be released in the proper manner according to the Florida Sunshine laws, which O'Mara is attempting to challenge, IMO. Not surreptitiously leaked to support Zimmerman's cause.

:moo:

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Doctors do not recommend x-ray films and blood work routinely because these tests do not alter the course of treatment.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/broken-nose

Oh I think they do when a patient comes in with an injured arm or leg. In fact, an Orthopod would likely xray everyone who came to him. It would certainly alter the course of treatment. My doctor routinely orders a CBC every three months. My point is that George Zimmerman was complaining that he "Thought" his nose was broken. Probably he was saying that it hurt. If I tell my doctor that I have a persistant abdominal pain, most likely he would order tests which would include xrays. The point is, I was not suggesting that a doctor routinely xray everyone's nose. That would be silly on my part. I was suggesting that it might have been appropriate in this case to xray the nose of a person complaining of pain in that area after some kind of physical altercation, although it might not show a break or cartilage injury but on the other hand, it might. And too, there might be the danger of a facial fracture of some sort if TM had beaten him so badly that he was in fear of death.
The fact remains that no diagnosis of a broken nose was made.

gxm
05-16-2012, 12:57 PM
AMEN!!! :rocker: This is exactly what I have thought since last night! MOM withholds the documents but leaked is:

1.) GZ medical report listing injuries.
2.) Autopsy says Trayvon showed signs of injury to knuckles.

With all of the States evidence against GZ turned over to MOM... this is all they chose to leak to media? :floorlaugh:

What info wasn't leaked was the bullet trajectory info...Hmmm! :waitasec:

Looks like the DE-fense has entered the SPIN ZONE! I hope we can read the documents soon...:please:

~JMHO :moo:

Has it been confirmed that MOM is the source of the leak?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 12:59 PM
His employer, for work. comp. purposes, imo.

So you think he went to work after being at the police station till 3 and just killing a kid the night before and they told him he needed a dr's note to sit in the chair and do computer work? His injuries had nothing to do with work.

who
05-16-2012, 01:00 PM
Has it been confirmed that MOM is the source of the leak? Deduction. There's no one else it could be

jjenny
05-16-2012, 01:01 PM
Per abc, Zimmerman was diagnosed with a closed fracture of the nose. So I find it quite bizarre when posters start claiming that no diagnosis was made.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 01:01 PM
Has it been confirmed that MOM is the source of the leak?

MOM and George both have the report and there is nothing stopping them from giving it to anyone.

The State has it but it is evidence for them so they can not legally leak it and would have no reason to. imo

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 01:02 PM
Per abc, Zimmerman was diagnosed with a closed fracture of the nose. So I find it quite bizarre when posters start claiming that no diagnosis was made.

But......."likely".

cityslick
05-16-2012, 01:05 PM
But......."likely".

It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, it wouldn't had been on the report to begin with.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 01:05 PM
It will be interesting to find out if George ever gave this legal clearance to his work. imo

gxm
05-16-2012, 01:06 PM
Deduction. There's no one else it could be

MOM is the only person with access to this information?

IMO, if it is MOM, good for him. He's using Crump's own methods against him.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Harmony2
05-16-2012, 01:08 PM
http://www.rr.com/video/2235280581

Karmady
05-16-2012, 01:08 PM
So you think he went to work after being at the police station till 3 and just killing a kid the night before and they told him he needed a dr's note to sit in the chair and do computer work? His injuries had nothing to do with work.

This was discussed in another thread, or maybe upthread in this one (?). Suzihawk posted a quote from Oliver saying that is exactly what happened. He went to work, told them what happened and they said he needed to see a dr. before coming back. The employer would need a medical clearance to show that his injuries were not work related for work.comp. purposes. Employers do that all the time for risk managment purposes.

Phoenixfla
05-16-2012, 01:09 PM
IMO......no xrays because they would prove a "likely broken" nose.....wasn't.

Or just perhaps the training that they received in medical school allowed them to determine a nose is broken without any x-ray?

Personally I have never heard of getting an x-ray for a broken nose.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 01:09 PM
It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, it wouldn't had been on the report to begin with.

All I know is the DR said "likely broken". You can read it on this screen cap:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - George Zimmerman's injuries, per leaked reports

jjenny
05-16-2012, 01:11 PM
It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, it wouldn't had been on the report to begin with.

And if it comes to trial, I am sure the doctors could get on the stand and say how he made this diagnosis.
X-rays aren't needed for every diagnosis.

gxm
05-16-2012, 01:13 PM
I have gone through many medical records for my job and it is not uncommon to see reports like this.

Also, don't know how all doctors do it but my pediatrician always picks up the phone and begins giving a narrative of the appointment as we are leaving. I always assumed that this was being transcribed at some point.

My ophthamologist did this too. And at the beginning of his narrative he noted that it was to be sent to my internist and neurologist so I'm pretty sure it was eventually transcribed.

lauriej
05-16-2012, 01:13 PM
Wonder if donations to the account have dropped off and this 'leak' is the stimulus to try to increase activity!

--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then heís losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

jjenny
05-16-2012, 01:14 PM
Or just perhaps the training that they received in medical school allowed them to determine a nose is broken without any x-ray?

Personally I have never heard of getting an x-ray for a broken nose.

There isn't much muscle on the nose. You can easily feel the bone.

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 01:15 PM
This was discussed in another thread, or maybe upthread in this one (?). Suzihawk posted a quote from Oliver saying that is exactly what happened. He went to work, told them what happened and they said he needed to see a dr. before coming back. The employer would need a medical clearance to show that his injuries were not work related for work.comp. purposes. Employers do that all the time for risk managment purposes.

Did Oliver say he saw this go down at work or was this a story relayed to him by George?

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 01:16 PM
So for every day the sunshine laws are held hostage (figure of speach), it's about a thousand bucks in the fund. That could add up quickly.

beach
05-16-2012, 01:16 PM
Has it been confirmed that MOM is the source of the leak?

No, but I agree that is a likely source.


I've never been big on stuff getting leaked but it happens in almost every case. And, as I have been told by many attorneys (not just defense attorneys, either) it is not considered unethical. It is considered a stategic move. Ok, so I may not love it, but I concede the man is doing his job.

IF MOM did leak the info, I assume he was thinking, "heh, my client has taken a brutal beating in the media. Time for some damage control. You guys want docs...well, here ya go. Here are some snippets for you guys to chew on." And I also have to assume he released the tidbits that most support his client.

IF it was a strategic move, it appears to have worked ..... For the time being. When the entire medical reports are released, things may be seen in a different light. We'll have to wait and see. fwiw, I think these will be the first docs released because I can't imagine much redaction necessary, if any at all. No witnesses to protect, etc...

Concerned Papa
05-16-2012, 01:17 PM
It will be interesting to find out if George ever gave this legal clearance to his work. imo

Wonder if he ever went to see his psychologist?


The doctor noted that it was "imperative" that Zimmerman "be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7LbzsWmGHh

jjenny
05-16-2012, 01:19 PM
--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

I am not sure where Abrams gets his information, but if you read the actual Stand Your Ground law, the aggressor does have a right to use deadly force, only the aggressor has to try and escape first. If Zimmerman was on the ground getting beat up, then it's not easy to escape.

katydid23
05-16-2012, 01:23 PM
All I know is the DR said "likely broken". You can read it on this screen cap:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - George Zimmerman's injuries, per leaked reports (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7924177&postcount=7)

So if the doctor said it was ' likely a broken nose'--then what is the big problem?

GZ said he had a broken nose, and has paperwork from a doctor who examined him, made note of the black eyes, and diagnosed it as a 'likely' broken nose. So does that make GZ a liar?

marlame
05-16-2012, 01:26 PM
--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then heís losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

Interesting about the Adderall and ADHD...a side effect of Adderall is aggression.

who
05-16-2012, 01:42 PM
The medical report said "We discussed that it was likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation."

As to head lacerations: "sutures needed given well approximated skin margins."

who
05-16-2012, 01:45 PM
Also, to add this, a screen capture. Shows "Encounter date": 11:02AM, "Encounter closed" at 3:37PM
28 year old male. Race: White

"Open wounds of scalp without mention of complication"

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/zimmermanmedicalreport1.jpg

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7OFmFLPzRR

Also, snippets here:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/zimmermanmedicalreport3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/zimmermanmedicalreport2.jpg

gxm
05-16-2012, 01:46 PM
But......."likely".

It is to the defense's advantage that the doctor used the word "likely" as opposed to "unlikely." Medically documented injury to GZ's nose is one substantial piece of evidence they will need to prove his story and/or introduce reasonable doubt to the prosecution's case.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

believe09
05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Do the injuries listed here by ABC coincide with the police report? I have been in and out of this no win case :( and I am not as adept at the details.

I guess, if I were Trayvon and there was a guy following me with a gun and I was cornered in some way, I might be tempted to try and put the guy on the ground before I was shot. I am not saying that is what happened-I am saying this is what I have thought.

So injuries on Mr Zimmerman dont necessarily mean he was defending himself when he shot Trayvon. JMO.

K_Z
05-16-2012, 01:49 PM
The use of plain images and computed tomography (CT) scans for the diagnosis and management of nasal fractures has been controversial. Several small studies have shown that use of these modalities is neither cost-effective nor beneficial to the patient or physician. Nasal fractures are usually evident and can be elicited by means of careful history taking and physical examination. Rarely is the radiologic confirmation of these injuries needed.[14] However, some clinicians still use plain images and CT scans, and the radiologist must understand some of the diagnostic pitfalls to reduce the rate of erroneous readings.[15, 16]

The legal value of an examination depends on the degree of medical findings supported by the examination results.[22] In isolated cases of nasal trauma, radiographs have a high number of false-negative results and a large, but unknown, number of false-positive results. Thus, the legal value is low because of the uncertain degree of confidence in the findings. Radiographic examinations of the nose have been known to fail in the assessment of nasal fractures.[22]


http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

Much more at link. IMO, there were no convincing reasons to do any images. Plain films (which is what kind of imaging the clinic likley has available, if they have any radiology services) would have yielded the least reliable information. And there is no indication for CT or MRI that I can see so far.

Imaging would not have changed the treatment plan at THIS stage of the injury. Later on ( months to years later), if any kind of nasal surgery were contemplated, the appropriate work up would be done, with imaging.

I kind of don't understand why there is such importance being placed on having radiographic imaging to "prove" the injury. It was minor, with no other facial fractures suspected. That's enough for me to know. The injury existed, and it was not major (requiring hospitalization or surgery) within 24 hours of the incident.

suzihawk
05-16-2012, 01:56 PM
I wonder if these medical records are the alleged medical records that O'Mara waved around in court during the bond hearing. And if they've been turned over to the SA as he said was proper in order to cross the detective?

Just curious since he seemed rather desperate to get them on record via the detective without having to wait for a discovery exchange. Since that failed, I guess the leak is the next best thing.

JMO

Sherbie
05-16-2012, 01:57 PM
In the "decision making process" section of the report, the doctor says they discussed that the nose was likely broken. Above that, there is a section where the diagnoses from the visit are listed. Apparently, the doctor felt comfortable enough with his/her assessment to list an actual diagnosis of closed fracture of the nasal bones in that section.

I don't think it really matters whether GZ's nose was "likely" broken or actually broken, though. The point is that he did have an obvious injury to his nose, significant enough to have caused black eyes and swelling, according to the doctor's report. That tells me that something came into forceful contact with his nose. It doesn't tell me anything about who the initial aggressor was, but it tends to corroborate Zimmerman's claim that he was punched.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7PkclLlYp4

Karmady
05-16-2012, 01:59 PM
Did Oliver say he saw this go down at work or was this a story relayed to him by George?

Idk. But I have no reason to doubt it since it's SOP and completely consistent with the information we have.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 02:01 PM
I wonder if these medical records are the alleged medical records that O'Mara waved around in court during the bond hearing. And if they've been turned over to the SA as he said was proper in order to cross the detective?

Just curious since he seemed rather desperate to get them on record via the detective without having to wait for a discovery exchange. Since that failed, I guess the leak is the next best thing.

JMO

These medical records are listed on the witness and evidence list that was released this week. See bottom of page seven.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93646122/Redacted-witness-and-evidence-list-filed-by-the-state-in-George-Zimmerman-case

Karmady
05-16-2012, 02:03 PM
I wonder if these medical records are the alleged medical records that O'Mara waved around in court during the bond hearing. And if they've been turned over to the SA as he said was proper in order to cross the detective?

Just curious since he seemed rather desperate to get them on record via the detective without having to wait for a discovery exchange. Since that failed, I guess the leak is the next best thing.

JMO

If there's one word that I would not use to describe O'Mara's demeanor at the bond hearing, it would be desperate. He took apart the PCA with the State's own witnesses. Hoisted with their own pitard, imo.

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 02:06 PM
One nose-related issue that has not been discussed is this:

No films were taken, and it sounds like that would've been diagnosis overkill, so I don't find fault with them for not taking that additional step.

However, films might reveal the direction of the contact that caused the break.

Some have suggested that it's possible that the injuries the dr. saw were not necessarily injuries sustained after an altercation with TM, indicating that GZ might've messed himself up a bit before going in as an attempt to create a trail of supportive evidence for himself.

Films showing the break would likely identify whether he received a punch from a left or right fist, and maybe even whether the person who hit his nose did so from a 'taller' or 'shorter' position, or if the punches to his nose were 'downward', as if he was on the ground when they occurred.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 02:06 PM
And if it comes to trial, I am sure the doctors could get on the stand and say how he made this diagnosis.
X-rays aren't needed for every diagnosis.

Wonder why he didn't follow up with an ear, nose and throat doctor as he was advised to do? Seems to me if it were broken this is the doctor who could tell him rather than a doctor who said it was "likely" broken. That report does not mean it was actually broken but he should treat it as if it is and follow up with a specialist, which he did not do. Obviously GZ did not feel it was broken or damaged enough to follow up on his injury. It sounds, too, as if the doctor was going by whatever input GZ provided him. If GZ told the doctor he was punched in the face 3 or 4 times I would think the doctor would conclude his nose was probably broken.

I'd like to see the report from the medics myself. jmo

BiancaS
05-16-2012, 02:07 PM
Oh I think they do when a patient comes in with an injured arm or leg. In fact, an Orthopod would likely xray everyone who came to him. It would certainly alter the course of treatment. My doctor routinely orders a CBC every three months. My point is that George Zimmerman was complaining that he "Thought" his nose was broken. Probably he was saying that it hurt. If I tell my doctor that I have a persistant abdominal pain, most likely he would order tests which would include xrays. The point is, I was not suggesting that a doctor routinely xray everyone's nose. That would be silly on my part. I was suggesting that it might have been appropriate in this case to xray the nose of a person complaining of pain in that area after some kind of physical altercation, although it might not show a break or cartilage injury but on the other hand, it might. And too, there might be the danger of a facial fracture of some sort if TM had beaten him so badly that he was in fear of death.
The fact remains that no diagnosis of a broken nose was made.

I think it is also important to note that the traveling circus of FT, GO, and RZ Sr. and Jr. all said that GZ had serious head injuries beyond the minor ones that we seem to see. Spoon fed, all that, (not to mention that shaken baby syndrome, whatever that was about). The report does not to mention getting a CAT Scan, etc. or anything about a concussion. I would say that Medical Report is positive evidence for the Prosecution because of what is missing.

MOO.

Ninety5rpm
05-16-2012, 02:09 PM
A medical report obtained by ABC News states that Zimmerman had a fractured nose, two black eyes, two lacerations on the back of his head, and needed psychological counseling after the fight.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0516/Report-Trayvon-Martin-beat-bloodied-George-Zimmerman.-Game-changer

I can't believe people are still questioning this shooting. How much would you take before you felt using a gun to stop a beating was justified?

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 02:10 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0516/Report-Trayvon-Martin-beat-bloodied-George-Zimmerman.-Game-changer

I can't believe people are still questioning this shooting. How much would you take before you felt using a gun top stop a beating was justified?



But none of that proves who started it. And there lies the problem.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 02:12 PM
If there's one word that I would not use to describe O'Mara's demeanor at the bond hearing, it would be desparate. He took apart the PCA with the State's own witnesses. Hoisted with their own pitard, imo.

How so? Gilbreath answered the questions honestly and obviously everything is still going forward at this point. Gilbreath stated there were inconsistencies within the several statements GZ gave to police. I'm sure MOM did not want to hear that. jmo

Elley Mae
05-16-2012, 02:12 PM
After all the complains about wanting to see medical records, I can't believe some posters here complain that medical records were leaked. All of this information is supposed to be released per Florida sunshine laws.

I see it as being "released" after being cleared (witness names and such) and not "leaked" but that's just me.:fence:

BiancaS
05-16-2012, 02:14 PM
He obviously did both, Daisy.

Narratives are not uncommon, however they are usually done for a reason. I imagine both the prosecution and the defense wanted one and it was requested.
In other instances, narratives are dictated for the benefit of another physician to whom they may be referring the patient.

I would imagine that this doctor also wanted to protect himself with the documentation. GZ told him he was not going to go to an ENT, the doctor would want to have that noted in his file. He probably also realized this was not a normal situation and his file could come under examination at some point.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 02:17 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0516/Report-Trayvon-Martin-beat-bloodied-George-Zimmerman.-Game-changer

I can't believe people are still questioning this shooting. How much would you take before you felt using a gun to stop a beating was justified?

The big problem is no one should have been pursuing TM in the first place. He had done nothing wrong. So who is the victim if the suspect was not a suspect at all but just a kid trying to get to the condo in time for the game? GZ had some serious issues he allowed to cloud his judgment and an innocent person ended up dead because of it. GZ was not just walking down the street minding his own business and was jumped by a criminal. GZ created the situation that caused the death of a minor. jmo

cityslick
05-16-2012, 02:23 PM
The big problem is no one should have been pursuing TM in the first place. He had done nothing wrong. So who is the victim if the suspect was not a suspect at all but just a kid trying to get to the condo in time for the game? GZ had some serious issues he allowed to cloud his judgment and an innocent person ended up dead because of it. GZ was not just walking down the street minding his own business and was jumped by a criminal. GZ created the situation that caused the death of a minor. jmo

If TM did indeed attack GZ first, what did GZ do to create the situation? By asking him what he was doing there?

Obviously if GZ attacked first the point is moot.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 02:26 PM
How so? Gilbreath answered the questions honestly and obviously everything is still going forward at this point. Gilbreath stated there were inconsistencies within the several statements GZ gave to police. I'm sure MOM did not want to hear that. jmo

Well, for one thing, he established that there is not, and likely never will be, any evidence of who started the physical altercation. He went pretty much line-by-line over the affidavit and pointed out each and every slanted and/or biased and/or unsupported statement in it. And, when he was done, his client, accused of murder2 in a high profile racially charged case with lots of political undertones, was released on minimal bail and permitted to leave the state.

I watched the whole thing a couple of times and agree with the commentators that he did a great job in casting doubt on all of the relevant parts of the affidavit. I don't think he's terribly concerned about the supposed inconsistent statements. The State's concept of inconsistent is likely very different than the defense's. I think O'Mara would be surprised if there were NOT some perceived inconsistencies, if not actual inconsistencies. The real question is whether they are material and/or explainable, keeping mind the State's burden of proving the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. jmo

prayers4missing
05-16-2012, 02:32 PM
Wonder why he didn't follow up with an ear, nose and throat doctor as he was advised to do? Seems to me if it were broken this is the doctor who could tell him rather than a doctor who said it was "likely" broken. That report does not mean it was actually broken but he should treat it as if it is and follow up with a specialist, which he did not do. Obviously GZ did not feel it was broken or damaged enough to follow up on his injury. It sounds, too, as if the doctor was going by whatever input GZ provided him. If GZ told the doctor he was punched in the face 3 or 4 times I would think the doctor would conclude his nose was probably broken.

I'd like to see the report from the medics myself. jmo

BBM

Any half way decent doctor is not going to go on what the patient says alone to get a diagnosis. I have been in the medical field for 15 years and never once have I seen a diagnosis made without some kind of exam of the situation. Not to mention as others have stated an xray is not needed to diagnosis a broken nose. Swelling, discoloration, touching it, moving it, and information from the patient help make a diagnosis.

:moo:

cityslick
05-16-2012, 02:36 PM
BBM

Any half way decent doctor is not going to go on what the patient says alone to get a diagnosis. I have been in the medical field for 15 years and never once have I seen a diagnosis made without some kind of exam of the situation. Not to mention as others have stated an xray is not needed to diagnosis a broken nose. Swelling, discoloration, touching it, moving it, and information from the patient help make a diagnosis.

:moo:

I'm not sure why the idea that he got a broken nose and other injuries are being downplayed when they are coming off a doctors report, the same piece of evidence that many wanted to see as proof of injuries in the first place.

Maybe it's because he really wasn't lying when he said he was injured.

suzihawk
05-16-2012, 02:38 PM
Well, for one thing, he established that there is not, and likely never will be, any evidence of who started the physical altercation. He went pretty much line-by-line over the affidavit and pointed out each and every slanted and/or biased and/or unsupported statement in it. And, when he was done, his client, accused of murder2 in a high profile racially charged case with lots of political undertones, was released on minimal bail and permitted to leave the state.

I watched the whole thing a couple of times and agree with the commentators that he did a great job in casting doubt on all of the relevant parts of the affidavit. I don't think he's terribly concerned about the supposed inconsistent statements. The State's concept of inconsistent is likely very different than the defense's. I think O'Mara would be surprised if there were NOT some perceived inconsistencies, if not actual inconsistencies. The real question is whether they are material and/or explainable, keeping mind the State's burden of proving the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. jmo

I wonder why he's fighting the release of the discovery as allowed by the Florida Sunshine laws, if he's not 'terribly concerned', ? Or why he waived his client's right to a speedy trial? Why would he want to drag his client through a long and painful ordeal if it's a slam dunk? Aside from the money rolling in, that is?

K_Z
05-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Respectfully snipped:

Films showing the break would likely identify whether he received a punch from a left or right fist, and maybe even whether the person who hit his nose did so from a 'taller' or 'shorter' position, or if the punches to his nose were 'downward', as if he was on the ground when they occurred.

No way any imaging can tell that. He had a non displaced septum. The medscape article I posted upthread goes into great detail on comparative studies of imaging of nasal fractures, both bony and cartilage. The error rate precludes imaging as definitive proof of even the presence or absence of fracture, let alone the forces which may have caused a fracture.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

cityslick
05-16-2012, 02:40 PM
I wonder why he's fighting the release of the discovery as allowed by the Florida Sunshine laws, if he's not 'terribly concerned', ? Or why he waived his client's right to a speedy trial? Why would he want to drag his client through a long and painful ordeal if it's a slam dunk? Aside from the money rolling in, that is?

Is he fighting the discovery as a whole or fighting the redaction of information pertaining to witness names, etc?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Is he fighting the discovery as a whole or fighting the redaction of information pertaining to witness names, etc? As a whole.

beach
05-16-2012, 02:43 PM
Update - Breaking News!

Steven Powell found GUILTY on 14 counts! (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171606&page=3)

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 02:43 PM
Is he fighting the discovery as a whole or fighting the redaction of information pertaining to witness names, etc?

I thought it had to do with witness protection.
I may have missed something though.

I have not been following close the past couple of weeks.

softball....softball....softball.....

tlcya
05-16-2012, 02:48 PM
BBM

Any half way decent doctor is not going to go on what the patient says alone to get a diagnosis. I have been in the medical field for 15 years and never once have I seen a diagnosis made without some kind of exam of the situation. Not to mention as others have stated an xray is not needed to diagnosis a broken nose. Swelling, discoloration, touching it, moving it, and information from the patient help make a diagnosis.

:moo:

Agreed, no doc goes simply on the words of their patient, but as you mention later in your post, information from the patient is a part of the diagnosis process and the accuracy of the information provided can play a role in an accurate diagnosis.

lauriej
05-16-2012, 02:57 PM
The medical report said "We discussed that it was likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation."

As to head lacerations: "sutures needed given well approximated skin margins."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-murder-trial-zimmermans-medical-report-shows-16357205?tab=9482931&section=1206833

--scalp lacerations: NO sutures needed..

--also, anyone know what a diagnosis of IBS refers to? K Z ??

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/misszandra/trayvon/georgenosutures.jpg

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 02:58 PM
After all the complains about wanting to see medical records, I can't believe some posters here complain that medical records were leaked. All of this information is supposed to be released per Florida sunshine laws.

Yes, but would prefer the documents themselves and not a media leak.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 02:58 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-murder-trial-zimmermans-medical-report-shows-16357205?tab=9482931&section=1206833

--scalp lacerations: NO sutures needed..

--also, anyone know what a diagnosis of IBS refers to? K Z ??

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/misszandra/trayvon/georgenosutures.jpg

IBS = Irritable Bowel Syndrome

Not sure what you are referring to by 'KZ'

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 03:02 PM
No way any imaging can tell that. He had a non displaced septum. The medscape article I posted upthread goes into great detail on comparative studies of imaging of nasal fractures, both bony and cartilage. The error rate precludes imaging as definitive proof of even the presence or absence of fracture, let alone the forces which may have caused a fracture.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

Don't you love Medscape? I used to frequently research there for answers to questions and still occasionally do so.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 03:05 PM
It's coming from a doctor's report. I should pull up posts from early on where everyone stated emphatically that they want to see to doctor's report as proof of injuries.

First it's the police report that wasn't accurate in saying GZ had injuries. Then it's the video that's been altered. Then the photo on the back of the head is a fake. Now a doctor's report says he had injuries.

I mean, how many times do we continue to dismiss this stuff. What if the EMT report also says he had injuries.

Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

I believe the doctor's report confirms my suspicions and NOT his family's gross exaggerations.

Was George's head continually smashed into concrete until he was nearly unconscious and one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life by his brother ?

NO -- the evidence certainly does not support that statement. Two tiny cuts on George's head that did not need stitches or even a band-aid are not indicative of multiple head-smashings on concrete. Neither was George's normal agility, balance and appearance at the Sanford PD, 35 minutes after the fatal shooting.

Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number 2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

imo, and millions of others

LambChop
05-16-2012, 03:07 PM
I see it as being "released" after being cleared (witness names and such) and not "leaked" but that's just me.:fence:

Records are released by the court, not defense. jmo

LinasK
05-16-2012, 03:09 PM
Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

I believe the doctor's report confirms my suspicions and NOT his family's gross exaggerations.

Was George's head continually smashed into concrete until he was nearly unconscious and one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life by his brother ?

NO -- the evidence certainly does not support that statement. Two tiny cuts on George's head that did not need stitches or even a band-aid are not indicative of multiple head-smashings on concrete. Neither was George's normal agility, balance and appearance at the Sanford PD, 35 minutes after the fatal shooting.

Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number 2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

imo, and millions of others
Excellent post!!!:goodpost::clap::clap::clap:

LambChop
05-16-2012, 03:21 PM
Well, for one thing, he established that there is not, and likely never will be, any evidence of who started the physical altercation. He went pretty much line-by-line over the affidavit and pointed out each and every slanted and/or biased and/or unsupported statement in it. And, when he was done, his client, accused of murder2 in a high profile racially charged case with lots of political undertones, was released on minimal bail and permitted to leave the state.

I watched the whole thing a couple of times and agree with the commentators that he did a great job in casting doubt on all of the relevant parts of the affidavit. I don't think he's terribly concerned about the supposed inconsistent statements. The State's concept of inconsistent is likely very different than the defense's. I think O'Mara would be surprised if there were NOT some perceived inconsistencies, if not actual inconsistencies. The real question is whether they are material and/or explainable, keeping mind the State's burden of proving the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. jmo

MOM was basically trying to try the case through Gilbreath without the benefit of witnesses. Gilbreath is not a witness. He could not testify to anything other than what he has investigated and even then he can only be vague. MOM got done what he intended but it in no way will compare to a trial, IMO. jmo

AJ Noiter
05-16-2012, 03:22 PM
Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

<snip for brevity>



There are many reasons. Some of them might be:
- Cost
- Being "macho"
- Wanting to get some sleep

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 03:23 PM
BBM

Any half way decent doctor is not going to go on what the patient says alone to get a diagnosis. I have been in the medical field for 15 years and never once have I seen a diagnosis made without some kind of exam of the situation. Not to mention as others have stated an xray is not needed to diagnosis a broken nose. Swelling, discoloration, touching it, moving it, and information from the patient help make a diagnosis.

:moo:

And sometimes, as I'm sure you know, merely moving the nose back and forth one can detect a grinding of the bones against each other.

2goldfish
05-16-2012, 03:29 PM
Or just perhaps the training that they received in medical school allowed them to determine a nose is broken without any x-ray?

Personally I have never heard of getting an x-ray for a broken nose.

I believe that with bones where nothing is able to be done, they dont xray to confirm as someone upthread said it would not alter the treatment.

this is typically true with broken baby toes, noses, and tailbones (I know the tailbone firsthand :P after the birth of my second I complained of pain to the midwife who examined then told me it was almost certainly fractured but there was nothing they could do medically, just to stay off of it and whatnot. it went in the record as probably broken and I maintain to this day it was broken, the forking thing STILL hurts if I sit on it funny!)

Karmady
05-16-2012, 03:31 PM
I wonder why he's fighting the release of the discovery as allowed by the Florida Sunshine laws, if he's not 'terribly concerned', ? Or why he waived his client's right to a speedy trial? Why would he want to drag his client through a long and painful ordeal if it's a slam dunk? Aside from the money rolling in, that is?

I think he waived the right to a speedy trial so that he will be as prepared as possible, including retaining experts, and much, much more. I also think that the longer this drags out with his client out of state and out of jail, the interest of the court of public opinion will wane, and that benefits George.

Afaik, he's not fighting the release, he's just taking the normal precautions that any good defense attorney would to make sure that confidential or prejudical information (like witness information) is not disclosed. The State and the Court all seem to be on the same page with him on that, so even if it might otherwise "concern" me (which it probably wouldn't), it definitely doesn't concern me in this case.

I also don't have a problem with the money rolling in for the defense. In fact, I'm glad, VERY glad. Imo, this became a railroading extraoridinaire as soon as Crump got involved. I don't fault anyone for giving or taking money for the defense under the circumstances. jmo

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 03:35 PM
I would imagine that this doctor also wanted to protect himself with the documentation. GZ told him he was not going to go to an ENT, the doctor would want to have that noted in his file. He probably also realized this was not a normal situation and his file could come under examination at some point.

You know, I kind of pity this doctor. GZ came to him and accurate records were kept and he was appropriately treated and he went on to the next patient and probably didn't think much more about it. I don't know if he realizes it or not but he is going to be torn to shreds in court if it ever comes to trial. It reminds me of that other noted trial in FL last year where Dr. Vass and many other professional witnesses were really treated as if they were the defendant. And as to how GZ got these injuries, the doctor only has GZ's word for it. Pity.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 03:39 PM
MOM was basically trying to try the case through Gilbreath without the benefit of witnesses. Gilbreath is not a witness. He could not testify to anything other than what he has investigated and even then he can only be vague. MOM got done what he intended but it in no way will compare to a trial, IMO. jmo

I disagree. As O'Mara pointed out frequently during his questioning, Gilbreath executed the PCA -- meaning he vouched for the truth of every syllable based on his own PERSONAL knowledge. If he only had vague knowledge of the truth of the allegations in the affidavit, he needed to educate himself sufficiently to swear to them. Otherwise, the affidavit is deficient. Gilbreath is locked in to the basis of his knowledge at the time he signed the PCA. It may be true that he shouldn't have sworn to certain things because he only had vague or secondhand knowledge of the information, but that was precisely O'Mara's point based on his knowledge of what an affidavit is. jmo

K_Z
05-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

We have no evidence GZ refused an xray at the FP clinic, which I belive strongly was never offered. Xrays are not reliable for diagnosis of cartilage fractures-- too many false negatives and false positives. Here is a good link explaining:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

Patients don't always understand what the best medical course of action is. Patients can't just demand a certain procedure from a health care provider. They can suggest, but the health care provider uses professional judgement and evidence based practices to determine diagnostic tests and treatment.

I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

(Snipped for space)

Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

Nope. I dont' believe that either. RZ should keep his mouth shut. All of that is hearsay.

NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number

Apparently the health care provider did document a presumed fracture of the cartilage from what we can see in the narrative. We don't have the H & P yet-- the exam notes.

2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

I don't think GZ swallowed much, if any blood. A small amount of blood in the stomach does not always cause vomiting. People who swallow blood do not have "bloody diarrhea"-- they have black, tarry stools from digestion of the blood in the small intestine (and usually a few days after the upper GI ingestion of the blood.) Bloody diarrhea is caused from a lower GI source of bleeding, such as the distal large intestine, rectum, etc.

Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

Not always. Not by a loong shot. A large amt, yes, probably. But not necessarily from small amounts. Everyone is different. Sometimes the first evidence of an upper GI bleed is the patient complaining of tarry black stools, which indicated digested blood of upper GI origin.

Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

His family is not an authoritative source of the severity of his injuries. Not in a court of law.

They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

imo, and millions of others

My comments in blue above in the quoted post.

cityslick
05-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

I believe the doctor's report confirms my suspicions and NOT his family's gross exaggerations.

Was George's head continually smashed into concrete until he was nearly unconscious and one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life by his brother ?

NO -- the evidence certainly does not support that statement. Two tiny cuts on George's head that did not need stitches or even a band-aid are not indicative of multiple head-smashings on concrete. Neither was George's normal agility, balance and appearance at the Sanford PD, 35 minutes after the fatal shooting.

Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number 2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

imo, and millions of others

They do not have to be life threatening to be able to defend yourself under SYG. Was this guy's life in danger when he chased, stabbed and killed someone because he was 'robbed'?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

The doctor would not put on the report that he had a broken nose, likely or otherwise, simply because GZ told him so.

K_Z
05-16-2012, 03:56 PM
You know, I kind of pity this doctor. GZ came to him and accurate records were kept and he was appropriately treated and he went on to the next patient and probably didn't think much more about it. I don't know if he realizes it or not but he is going to be torn to shreds in court if it ever comes to trial. It reminds me of that other noted trial in FL last year where Dr. Vass and many other professional witnesses were really treated as if they were the defendant. And as to how GZ got these injuries, the doctor only has GZ's word for it. Pity.

Totally agree. And I also want to point out that there is a very good chance he saw one of the PA's in the office, which would have been totally, 100% appropriate. Both of the PA's have excellent educational credentials listed-- far in excess of the minimum necessary for practice as a PA. I am quite concerned that if it was a PA who saw GZ, that she will be absolutely shredded simply because she is not a physician.

PA's practice very independently, and are not required to have every decision and every exam "co-signed" by a doc. They must practice in a group with physicians, and can't bill independently for their services-- but a physician is not even required to be onsite in most locations. In most states, they are licensed under the medical board. There is no reason a PA couldn't have very competently handled GZ's visit. (I almost feel the need to preemptively support these providers.... )

Regardless of who saw GZ in the office, I agree that every little thing in the report will be picked apart and second guessed. I really fear for the reputation and career of the provider. I'm sure the entire clinic staff was dreading the day that medical record became public. Every single person even peripherally associated with GZ has been picked to shreds by the public. The just went to work that day, and got unwittingly caught up in a firestorm. :(

BiancaS
05-16-2012, 04:02 PM
I think he waived the right to a speedy trial so that he will be as prepared as possible, including retaining experts, and much, much more. I also think that the longer this drags out with his client out of state and out of jail, the interest of the court of public opinion will wane, and that benefits George.

Afaik, he's not fighting the release, he's just taking the normal precautions that any good defense attorney would to make sure that confidential or prejudical information (like witness information) is not disclosed. The State and the Court all seem to be on the same page with him on that, so even if it might otherwise "concern" me (which it probably wouldn't), it definitely doesn't concern me in this case.

I also don't have a problem with the money rolling in for the defense. In fact, I'm glad, VERY glad. Imo, this became a railroading extraoridinaire as soon as Crump got involved. I don't fault anyone for giving or taking money for the defense under the circumstances. jmo

If Crump had not gotten involved, in all fairness, we never would have heard of Trayvon Martin and GZ would not have been charged with a crime.

My understanding is that MOM delayed the discovery process. He now says it is to protect the witnesses, but I don't believe he filed the necessary motion until very, very recently, long after the discovery would have been released.

I think we will be seeing most if not all of the doc dump very soon, which is why the medical report was leaked. Look, over there!!! Kind of like the CA case, distractions right before anything happened, including doc dumps.

All just MOO!!

LC446
05-16-2012, 04:03 PM
I disagree. As O'Mara pointed out frequently during his questioning, Gilbreath executed the PCA -- meaning he vouched for the truth of every syllable based on his own PERSONAL knowledge. If he only had vague knowledge of the truth of the allegations in the affidavit, he needed to educate himself sufficiently to swear to them. Otherwise, the affidavit is deficient. Gilbreath is locked in to the basis of his knowledge at the time he signed the PCA. It may be true that he shouldn't have sworn to certain things because he only had vague or secondhand knowledge of the information, but that was precisely O'Mara's point based on his knowledge of what an affidavit is. jmo

Incorrect. Gilbreath can swear to information provided in a probable cause affidavit that he receives from other law enforcement officers. Also, if you look at the affidavit it clearly states that Gilbreath and O'Steen swear to the information. Gilbreath is not going to speak for O'Steen and vice versa. I've read over and over and over about how the PC affidavit should lay out the case and give all the information. Not true. A defense attorney would love that, but that is not what is required. A probable cause affidavit should be brief and contain only the elements of the offense necessary to secure an arrest warrant. In other words, enough information to convince a judge that a warrant is justified. So if MOM wanted a true representation and wanted to question folks about the affidavit in the bond hearing, he should have subpoenaed both investigators. He didn't, he saw Gilbreath there and took advantage. I don't fault him for that, it was good thinking and it turned out well for him.

George's injuries...I think you can look through my limited posts on this thread and see that I have never indicated that I didn't think or believe that GZ was injured. I've always believed that he probably was injured, he described a fight, and people get injured in fights. I've never said...prove to me he was injured. So now, let's put these injuries in context with everything else, except we can't because we're missing the everything else.

K_Z
05-16-2012, 04:06 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-murder-trial-zimmermans-medical-report-shows-16357205?tab=9482931&section=1206833

--scalp lacerations: NO sutures needed..

--also, anyone know what a diagnosis of IBS refers to? K Z ??

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/misszandra/trayvon/georgenosutures.jpg

Irritable Bowel Syndrome. What we are looking at is the "summary" section of the narrative. He was given Lodine, a NSAID. The provider is commenting that GZ was counseled as to the risk of the Lodine creating GI upset in a patient with a previous dx of IBS.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 04:08 PM
If Crump had not gotten involved, in all fairness, we never would have heard of Trayvon Martin and GZ would not have been charged with a crime.

My understanding is that MOM delayed the discovery process. He now says it is to protect the witnesses, but I don't believe he filed the necessary motion until very, very recently, long after the discovery would have been released.

I think we will be seeing most if not all of the doc dump very soon, which is why the medical report was leaked. Look, over there!!! Kind of like the CA case, distractions right before anything happened, including doc dumps.

All just MOO!!

I don't know what would have happened if Crump hadn't gotten involved since the investigation was ongoing. Further, I'm not sure that George being arrested WAS the right outcome based on what I've seen so far, even for manslaughter. If George has I valid SYG defense, which I believe he does have (at least the State can't prove otherwise, as the prosecutor's office initially concluded), the law is designed specifically to protect him from arrest, not just conviction. jmo

As far as releasing the medical report now, jmo, but it would be much better to release negative information BEFORE you release favorable information for the same reason you mentioned. You're only as good as the last thing you did, as they say, or in this case, as the last thing the public saw. jmo

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 04:16 PM
Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

"You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

"This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-16/trayvon-zimmerman-medical-report/55022578/1

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 04:23 PM
They do not have to be life threatening to be able to defend yourself under SYG. Was this guy's life in danger when he chased, stabbed and killed someone because he was 'robbed'?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

The doctor would not put on the report that he had a broken nose, likely or otherwise, simply because GZ told him so. That case is really strange, the guy killed him then stole the other radios the guy had and sold them. Why wasn't that murder in the commission of a felony?

Elley Mae
05-16-2012, 04:23 PM
Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

"You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

"This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-16/trayvon-zimmerman-medical-report/55022578/1

Dang Lawyers are experts in everything :fence:

K_Z
05-16-2012, 04:24 PM
Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

"You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

"This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-16/trayvon-zimmerman-medical-report/55022578/1

I haven't seen a single source that suggests that the injuries documented in GZ's med records "clear him". Certainly they are an important part of the whole picture of what happened. And, imo, the mere existence of injuries on GZ DOES put the topic of self defense back on the table (if it was ever off in the first place).

Interestingly, in all 5 of the individuals who have been convicted of federal hate crimes, none of them were injured by their victims. None of them claimed any variety of self defense. Food for thought.

Karmady
05-16-2012, 04:30 PM
Incorrect. Gilbreath can swear to information provided in a probable cause affidavit that he receives from other law enforcement officers. Also, if you look at the affidavit it clearly states that Gilbreath and O'Steen swear to the information. Gilbreath is not going to speak for O'Steen and vice versa. I've read over and over and over about how the PC affidavit should lay out the case and give all the information. Not true. A defense attorney would love that, but that is not what is required. A probable cause affidavit should be brief and contain only the elements of the offense necessary to secure an arrest warrant. In other words, enough information to convince a judge that a warrant is justified. So if MOM wanted a true representation and wanted to question folks about the affidavit in the bond hearing, he should have subpoenaed both investigators. He didn't, he saw Gilbreath there and took advantage. I don't fault him for that, it was good thinking and it turned out well for him.

George's injuries...I think you can look through my limited posts on this thread and see that I have never indicated that I didn't think or believe that GZ was injured. I've always believed that he probably was injured, he described a fight, and people get injured in fights. I've never said...prove to me he was injured. So now, let's put these injuries in context with everything else, except we can't because we're missing the everything else.

You can rely on what you are told by others so long as you are comfortable with what they told you, but you still have to claim it as your personal knowledge otherwise you can't effectively swear to it. Swearing to something is exactly the same as saying I know this to be true on penalty of perjury. It is a statement to the Court, under oath.

Example:

I submit an affidavit swearing that on June 6, 2011, my office sent a letter to so-and-so which said x, y z. If I wrote and sent the letter, I can swear to it without reservation. If I did not write the letter I can attach it and swear to it because I've seen the letter and the normal business practice in my office is for letters to be sent on the day they are dated by the means identified in the letter. However, if I did not write or send the letter myself, but my colleague tells me that he wrote it and sent it, I can still swear to it (as in, its physically possible for me to do so). But if I don't independently verify that the letter was sent and/or attach it to my affidavit, my affidavit is, at best, deficient and subject to challenge on that basis. Which is exactly the point of O'Mara's questioning.

And you are right that O'Steen also signed the affidavit. So I stand corrected on that point. I've never seen (or at least never noticed) an affidavit signed by two people. Nonetheless, both affiants are independently responsible for the content of the entire document, imo, and Gilbreath is still locked in. I agree with Dershowitz that it is a deficient PCA...period, and I think O'Mara did a great job.

whiteangora
05-16-2012, 04:45 PM
Is he fighting the discovery as a whole or fighting the redaction of information pertaining to witness names, etc?

IMO, he's calling the shots as to what gets released. Anything that makes his client look good will come out and anything that casts any doubt (or as O'Mara calls it "inflammatory evidence") will be held back. He's got this all figured out while the lottery pot grows. imo

Reader
05-16-2012, 04:54 PM
The fact of the matter is we are now finding out as more info comes out that he did in fact have injuries. There is no way he's going to cause those injuries after the fact when the cops who saw him that night will simply testify that he didn't have them, thus at that point you might as well throw him in jail anyway.

We also find out that the word of a funeral director means nothing as it pertains to injuries to TM's hands. Many were taking the funeral director's comments that he saw no signs of injury as fact that TM has no injuries. We are learning that is not the case.

Late today and catching up, but I had a thought about this man being the funeral 'director'. What I'm wondering is if the reason he did not see any injuries on Trayvon's hands is that he is not the one who actually prepares the body but has technicians who do that work. He may have only seen Trayvon's body after he was already in the coffin for the funeral, and was just checking the work his workers had done. I'm pretty sure they were directed to cover up any obvious injuries for the parents' sake.

Anyway, I'm not taking the word of this leak as legitimate evidence...want to see the actual autopsy report and pictures from that by the ME.

You hear us MOM???

IMO

Note: I realize now this should be in the other thread but don't know how to move it with the quote.

i.b.nora
05-16-2012, 04:56 PM
At $400/hr they need to bring in a minimum of $3,200 a day just to pay for the defense.

Reader
05-16-2012, 04:58 PM
At $400/hr they need to bring in a minimum of $3,200 a day just to pay for the defense.

That's a whole lotta leaks!

ILikeToBendPages
05-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Psychologists can not prescribe meds. in FL.


Not in Texas either.

So is those bad drugs George was taking going to be his defense?

Back in the day we called them uppers and downers.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 05:28 PM
Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps


∂ There was only one photo taken by the police at the scene of any of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a full-face picture of him that showed a bloodied nose — before paramedics tended to him. It was shot on a department cellphone camera and was not downloaded for a few days, an oversight by the officer who took it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html

believe09
05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
IBS = Irritable Bowel Syndrome

Not sure what you are referring to by 'KZ'
Iliotibial band syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Illiotibial Band Syndrome applies to the knee joint. :) I am pretty certain that is what the medical person is referring to. You can get it when you hyperextend the joint side to side. I had it once.

who
05-16-2012, 05:33 PM
Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps


∂ There was only one photo taken by the police at the scene of any of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a full-face picture of him that showed a bloodied nose — before paramedics tended to him. It was shot on a department cellphone camera and was not downloaded for a few days, an oversight by the officer who took it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html
Thank you for that link. I am peeved like you wouldn't believe reading things like this:


∂ There was only one photo taken by the police at the scene of any of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a full-face picture of him that showed a bloodied nose — before paramedics tended to him. It was shot on a department cellphone camera and was not downloaded for a few days, an oversight by the officer who took it.


∂ The vehicle that Mr. Zimmerman was driving when he first spotted Mr. Martin was mistakenly not secured by officers as part of the crime scene. The vehicle was an important link in the fatal encounter because it was where Mr. Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious teenager in a hooded sweatshirt roaming through the Retreat. Mr. Zimmerman also said he was walking back to the vehicle when he was confronted by Mr. Martin before shooting him.


∂ The police did not cover the crime scene to shield evidence from the rain, and any blood from cuts that Mr. Zimmerman suffered when he said Mr. Martin pounded his head into a sidewalk may have been washed away.


∂ The police did not test Mr. Zimmerman for alcohol or drug use that night, and one witness said the lead investigator quickly jumped to a conclusion that it was Mr. Zimmerman, and not Mr. Martin, who cried for help during the struggle.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?_r=1

W.
T.
F.
???

Arggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

believe09
05-16-2012, 05:37 PM
∂ There was only one photo taken by the police at the scene of any of Mr. Zimmermanís injuries ó a full-face picture of him that showed a bloodied nose ó before paramedics tended to him. It was shot on a department cellphone camera and was not downloaded for a few days, an oversight by the officer who took it.

I apologize if I am annoying everyone-so the police report does not reflect the injuries, either because of oversight or PD didnt think they were significant perhaps?

I am not implying or saying they werent, just trying to understand. Then the EMT report must reflect the injuries, correct? I will go find it if it has been released.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 05:42 PM
From same link.........

Some Sanford officers were skeptical from the beginning about certain details of Mr. Zimmerman’s account. For instance, he told the police that Mr. Martin had punched him over and over again, but they questioned whether his injuries were consistent with the number of blows he claimed he received.

LinasK
05-16-2012, 05:44 PM
Thank you for that link. I am peeved like you wouldn't believe reading things like this:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?_r=1

W.
T.
F.
???

Arggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Okay, so I gather Sanford PD did not interview the girlfriend or the neighbors immediately. What prevented them from doing this at a later date??? :waitasec:It's done all the time in cold cases...

believe09
05-16-2012, 05:44 PM
From same link.........

Some Sanford officers were skeptical from the beginning about certain details of Mr. Zimmermanís account. For instance, he told the police that Mr. Martin had punched him over and over again, but they questioned whether his injuries were consistent with the number of blows he claimed he received.

OK-now this makes sense to me. I was pretty sure that this was clear since day one.

What was the time lapse between the shooting and the visit with his physician?

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 05:45 PM
A few hours......

Emma Peel
05-16-2012, 05:48 PM
Iliotibial band syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliotibial_band_syndrome)

Illiotibial Band Syndrome applies to the knee joint. :) I am pretty certain that is what the medical person is referring to. You can get it when you hyperextend the joint side to side. I had it once.

That's ITBS. Irritable Bowl Syndrome is IBS, and they're talking about George's reported tummy aches/nausea. :cow: Emotionally-stress-induced in his case.

:rolleyes: Of course he needed to see a psychiatrist. He killed someone. And lived to face the consequences. Sucks for him. Sucks even more for Trayvon & his family. :cow:

LC446
05-16-2012, 05:52 PM
You can rely on what you are told by others so long as you are comfortable with what they told you, but you still have to claim it as your personal knowledge otherwise you can't effectively swear to it. Swearing to something is exactly the same as saying I know this to be true on penalty of perjury. It is a statement to the Court, under oath.

Example:

I submit an affidavit swearing that on June 6, 2011, my office sent a letter to so-and-so which said x, y z. If I wrote and sent the letter, I can swear to it without reservation. If I did not write the letter I can attach it and swear to it because I've seen the letter and the normal business practice in my office is for letters to be sent on the day they are dated by the means identified in the letter. However, if I did not write or send the letter myself, but my colleague tells me that he wrote it and sent it, I can still swear to it (as in, its physically possible for me to do so). But if I don't independently verify that the letter was sent and/or attach it to my affidavit, my affidavit is, at best, deficient and subject to challenge on that basis. Which is exactly the point of O'Mara's questioning.

And you are right that O'Steen also signed the affidavit. So I stand corrected on that point. I've never seen (or at least never noticed) an affidavit signed by two people. Nonetheless, both affiants are independently responsible for the content of the entire document, imo, and Gilbreath is still locked in. I agree with Dershowitz that it is a deficient PCA...period, and I think O'Mara did a great job.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth about this but one officer can absolutely swear to information in an affidavit that was provided to him by another law enforcement officer, it does not have to be first hand information. It's done everday by police officers who fill out probable cause affidavits.

daisy7
05-16-2012, 06:00 PM
The attorney for Martin's parents, Natalie Jackson, is questioning the release of the medical records Tuesday that prosecutors have in the second-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

Jackson said she feels the report was leaked to try and help Zimmerman's defense, but Zimmerman's lawyer denies any involvement.

"Did your office leak that to make Mr. Zimmerman look better?" reporter Bob Kealing asked Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer.

"Absolutely not," said O'Mara.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31072911/detail.html#ixzz1v4YcRJ1W

Karmady
05-16-2012, 06:06 PM
I'm not going to get into a back and forth about this but one officer can absolutely swear to information in an affidavit that was provided to him by another law enforcement officer, it does not have to be first hand information. It's done everday by police officers who fill out probable cause affidavits.

Seems like it's just a disagreement over semantics. I don't doubt that it's done every day, but every time it's done, the officer is swearing that he personally knows the information to be true, regardless of its source. That was the whole point of O'Mara's line of questioning. You swore to it, how do you know it to be true. jmo

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 06:07 PM
So who leaked it? Sure wasn't the state. I wonder if GZ and his family did thinking it might help?

Reader
05-16-2012, 06:09 PM
The EMS report will document that the patient "declined transport". There is no indication from what we have with the FP visit that he was considered for admission to the hospital at that point. And I can't imagine why he would have been with relatively minor injuries that can be managed as an outpatient.

I'm in agreement with those who have opined that it may have been GZs workplace who directed him to be seen and cleared before returning to work. It's entirely possible GZ himself did not independently seek the appointment because of his injuries.

But aside from that, it is what it is. He clearly had some injuries that were documented and examined by a licensed provider. And it was perfectly OK for him to see a PA in this instance. Both of the PA's listed have impeccable educational credentials-- far exceeding the minimum necessary for a PA. I really am concerned with all of the chatter that the PA (if that is who he saw) is going to be bashed because she is not a physician. I can see it coming, sadly.
I hope I'm wrong.

Thank you! Just as we thought, not injuries that support GZ being fearful of his life or serious injuries from the few licks that Trayvon got in before he was killed for no reason other than this man's ego and determination to catch one of those that kept getting away before.

And as a note, no, I don't doubt or criticize what this doctor or medical office did...what I doubt is how the information released is/will be spun to GZ's advantage. I notice no one of his supporters have aknowledged the fact that he DID NOT have life threatening injuries that justified even fear of death and killing Trayvon, but rather, these 'minor injuries'. But big man GZ who had the weight advantage and experience as a bouncer was for some reason terrified of TM's few punches.


I apologize if I am annoying everyone-so the police report does not reflect the injuries, either because of oversight or PD didnt think they were significant perhaps?

I am not implying or saying they werent, just trying to understand. Then the EMT report must reflect the injuries, correct? I will go find it if it has been released.

believe09, no reason for apology! I agree with what you've stated but do not think the EMT report has been released as yet. Hope it will be soon. This is BIG!! Thank you!

IMO

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 06:09 PM
The attorney for Martin's parents, Natalie Jackson, is questioning the release of the medical records Tuesday that prosecutors have in the second-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

Jackson said she feels the report was leaked to try and help Zimmerman's defense, but Zimmerman's lawyer denies any involvement.

"Did your office leak that to make Mr. Zimmerman look better?" reporter Bob Kealing asked Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer.

"Absolutely not," said O'Mara.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31072911/detail.html#ixzz1v4YcRJ1W

Then Bob Kealing sent this tweet which is false and I told him.

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing

#Zimmerman defense today denies leaking medical report detailing his broken nose, black eyes day after encounter with #TrayvonMartin.

https://twitter.com/#!/bobkealing


All MOM denied was releasing it to make Zimmerman look better. He never denied releasing it. imo

RANCH
05-16-2012, 06:13 PM
Thank you! Just as we thought, not injuries that support GZ being fearful of his life or serious injuries from the few licks that Trayvon got in before he was killed for no reason other than this man's ego and determination to catch one of those that kept getting away before.

And as a note, no, I don't doubt or criticize what this doctor or medical office did...what I doubt is how the information released is/will be spun to GZ's advantage. I notice no one of his supporters have aknowledged the fact that he DID NOT have life threatening injuries that justified even fear of death and killing Trayvon, but rather, these 'minor injuries'. But big man GZ who had the weight advantage and experience as a bouncer was for some reason terrified of TM's few punches.



believe09, no reason for apology! I agree with what you've stated but do not think the EMT report has been released as yet. Hope it will be soon. This is BIG!! Thank you!

IMO
BBM
I was unaware that GZ needs to show he suffered life threatening injurys in order to claim self defense?

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 06:15 PM
So who leaked it? Sure wasn't the state. I wonder if GZ and his family did thinking it might help? He wasn't asked if he released it. This was not a court document, it was just Georges medical report. There are no court stamps on the top of it.

If he gave it to ABC or sold it to them he could answer honestly he did not leak it because it was not a leak.

If he did release it he can say he did not "leak" it to help Zimmerman.

He can say anything he wants because ABC will never disclose who gave it to them.

PaperDoll
05-16-2012, 06:18 PM
Ok, so GZ has some injuries, :boohoo: He would not, IMO, have had them had he not pursued TM the way he did. TM was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND!!! Defending himself from this man who he felt threatened by. My story and I'm sticking to it :razz:

saguaro
05-16-2012, 06:41 PM
Ok, so GZ has some injuries, :boohoo: He would not, IMO, have had them had he not pursued TM the way he did. TM was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND!!! Defending himself from this man who he felt threatened by. My story and I'm sticking to it :razz:

Not if he threw the first punch. Then GZ was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND.

imo.

Reader
05-16-2012, 06:42 PM
BBM
I was unaware that GZ needs to show he suffered life threatening injurys in order to claim self defense?

No..but I covered that in my 1st para. when I stated:

not injuries that support GZ being fearful of his life or serious injuries from the few licks that Trayvon got in [per SYG]

The 2nd para. pertained to all the life threatening injuries that have been claimed by GZ, his family and friends and supporters.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 06:42 PM
They do not have to be life threatening to be able to defend yourself under SYG. Was this guy's life in danger when he chased, stabbed and killed someone because he was 'robbed'?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

The doctor would not put on the report that he had a broken nose, likely or otherwise, simply because GZ told him so.

bbm

I know injuries do not have to be life threatening for someone to use Florida's mindless SYG laws.

That was not my point. My point is that the Zimmermans & friends have loudly claimed over and over that George WAS indeed afraid for his life because skinny Trayvon was inflicting serious, life threatening injuries upon him.

He was NOT -- unless you consider a *likely* broken nose, black eyes, and two tiny superficial head scratches that required neither stitches nor a band-aid to be serious and life threatening wounds

The Zimmermans have been LIARS and gross exaggerators from the beginning. Therefore I have no intention of believing anything else they might say unless there is absolute, convincing proof it's the truth. THAT was my point! _ :mad:

RANCH
05-16-2012, 06:47 PM
No..but I covered that in my 1st para. when I stated:

not injuries that support GZ being fearful of his life or serious injuries from the few licks that Trayvon got in [per SYG]

The 2nd para. pertained to all the life threatening injuries that have been claimed by GZ, his family and friends and supporters.
I believe that the injuries support a claim of self defense. I think I'll wait and see what GZ said himself about his injuries. I give little weight to the statements made by family and so called friends. JMO.

PaperDoll
05-16-2012, 06:50 PM
Not if he threw the first punch. Then GZ was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND.

imo.

We don't know if he actually did, and even if he did, I'm sorry, it doesn't warrant him to shoot and kill because I truly do not believe GZ's life was being threatened. I believe GZ could have walked away because I also believe it was TM crying out for help! I wasn't there to see any of this, nor do I have all the correct info, I'm just going with my gut feeling :twocents:

Emma Peel
05-16-2012, 06:55 PM
Not if he threw the first punch. Then GZ was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND.

imo.


Not if GZ was stalking him. In that case, Trayvon was provoked AND standing his ground. :moo:

Emma Peel
05-16-2012, 07:03 PM
BBM
I was unaware that GZ needs to show he suffered life threatening injurys in order to claim self defense?

Injuries may support the fact that there was some sort of physical confrontation. Happens every day.

IMO, the focus, we may find, is NOT whether these two sustained injuries from a physical confrontation. Rather whether or not that physical confrontation was provoked, who provoked it, and was it appropriate/necessary to do so whilst stalking and carrying a loaded weapon.

What happens to SYG defense in the case where the SYG-claimant who was armed and aggressive, provoked the victim into a confrontation, then took the opportunity of the confrontation to kill? :moo:

Just wonderin'.

Lovelymountains
05-16-2012, 07:12 PM
IMO, he's calling the shots as to what gets released. Anything that makes his client look good will come out and anything that casts any doubt (or as O'Mara calls it "inflammatory evidence") will be held back. He's got this all figured out while the lottery pot grows. imo

Bingo !!

RANCH
05-16-2012, 07:13 PM
Injuries may support the fact that there was some sort of physical confrontation. Happens every day.

IMO, the focus, we may find, is NOT whether these two sustained injuries from a physical confrontation. Rather whether or not that physical confrontation was provoked, who provoked it, and was it appropriate/necessary to do so whilst stalking and carrying a loaded weapon.

What happens to SYG defense in the case where the SYG-claimant who was armed and aggressive, provoked the victim into a confrontation, then took the opportunity of the confrontation to kill? :moo:

Just wonderin'.

If by provoked you mean hitting someone in the nose knocking him to the ground and bashing his head to the ground after they ask you a question, then yes SYG or even plain old self defense would be justified. JMO.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 07:18 PM
Ok, so GZ has some injuries, :boohoo: He would not, IMO, have had them had he not pursued TM the way he did. TM was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND!!! Defending himself from this man who he felt threatened by. My story and I'm sticking to it :razz:

I'll stick to your story right along with you, PaperDoll! _ :clap:

Trayvon had every right to stand his ground against the scary vigilante who needed a 100 lb. Rottweiler -- a 9mm handgun full of hollow point bullets -- or both -- in order to muster the guts to go after the *up-to-no-good-a$$h*le* Black boys who always got away.

Justice for Trayvon Martin!

LynnM
05-16-2012, 07:25 PM
You can rely on what you are told by others so long as you are comfortable with what they told you, but you still have to claim it as your personal knowledge otherwise you can't effectively swear to it. Swearing to something is exactly the same as saying I know this to be true on penalty of perjury. It is a statement to the Court, under oath.

Example:

I submit an affidavit swearing that on June 6, 2011, my office sent a letter to so-and-so which said x, y z. If I wrote and sent the letter, I can swear to it without reservation. If I did not write the letter I can attach it and swear to it because I've seen the letter and the normal business practice in my office is for letters to be sent on the day they are dated by the means identified in the letter. However, if I did not write or send the letter myself, but my colleague tells me that he wrote it and sent it, I can still swear to it (as in, its physically possible for me to do so). But if I don't independently verify that the letter was sent and/or attach it to my affidavit, my affidavit is, at best, deficient and subject to challenge on that basis. Which is exactly the point of O'Mara's questioning.

And you are right that O'Steen also signed the affidavit. So I stand corrected on that point. I've never seen (or at least never noticed) an affidavit signed by two people. Nonetheless, both affiants are independently responsible for the content of the entire document, imo, and Gilbreath is still locked in. I agree with Dershowitz that it is a deficient PCA...period, and I think O'Mara did a great job.

The affidavit was a collaborative effort. This can't be the first time that has occurred and it's hard for me to believe that when two people each do half the work and sign the affidavit that they are each swearing that they have independently verified all the contents. How could that be? Would Gilbreath have had to go to O'Steen's witnesses and show them their statement and signature to make sure O'Steen had submitted an accurate document and vice versa? That doesn't make sense to me. There might as well just be one investigator.

ILikeToBendPages
05-16-2012, 07:32 PM
BBM
I was unaware that GZ needs to show he suffered life threatening injurys in order to claim self defense?

Where would Trayvon be today if he had wrestled the gun away from George and shot him dead?

Would he have been standing his ground? Even if he only had scraped and bruised knuckles?

George started this all in motion not Trayvon and he has every reason in trying to make himself look like a victim.

GrandmaTo4
05-16-2012, 07:34 PM
He wasn't asked if he released it. This was not a court document, it was just Georges medical report. There are no court stamps on the top of it.

If he gave it to ABC or sold it to them he could answer honestly he did not leak it because it was not a leak.

If he did release it he can say he did not "leak" it to help Zimmerman.

He can say anything he wants because ABC will never disclose who gave it to them.

bbn

I don't know Dr.Fessel. _ :waitasec:

Didn't ABC eventually get caught with their pants down over the $200,000 payment for the exclusive rights to the Caylee photos and videos?

katydid23
05-16-2012, 07:37 PM
Wonder why he didn't follow up with an ear, nose and throat doctor as he was advised to do? Seems to me if it were broken this is the doctor who could tell him rather than a doctor who said it was "likely" broken. That report does not mean it was actually broken but he should treat it as if it is and follow up with a specialist, which he did not do. Obviously GZ did not feel it was broken or damaged enough to follow up on his injury. It sounds, too, as if the doctor was going by whatever input GZ provided him. If GZ told the doctor he was punched in the face 3 or 4 times I would think the doctor would conclude his nose was probably broken.

I'd like to see the report from the medics myself. jmo

My son broke his nose on two occasions. Neither time was he sent to a specialist for further care. Unless it is a 'twisted' type break, or one that is distorted in some way, there is no further treatment necessary. It just needs to heal. ' No More Hockey' for awhile were our only instructions.

detectiveconan
05-16-2012, 07:39 PM
Where I am from, DO's are as common as MD's. To say that they 'specialize' in osteopathy is a bit of a mischaracterization. While in the most technical sense that may be true, they tend to function much like MD's. They deliver babies, specialize in various types of surgery (orthapedic, etc.), and dx cancer, among other things.

If this was a DO he or his spouse considered to be their primary care physician - or even a Dr. one of them had seen previously for something small, I can certainly see why he'd go see someone familiar after an event such as this.

The article I referenced above states that he went in to be cleared to return to work. To me, that indicates two things. 1) He had no clue the firestorm was coming. He was just wanting to get back to his job - to his normal life; and 2) his injuries looked bad enough that he needed official proof that they would not preclude him from working.

Hi, I've been lurking but this caught my eye. I think this proves he has a depraved mind. What person after just undergoing such a traumatic incident and especially one which you took someone's life is ready to work?It had not even been 24 hours. I just think anyone would have took a sick day at least...It really shows that he had no sympathy whatsoever for the person (Trayvon) he had just killed. jmo

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Why are bits and pieces of information being released and not the whole medical document/s?

Montjoy
05-16-2012, 07:43 PM
Not if he threw the first punch. Then GZ was STANDING HIS OWN GROUND.

imo.

Tacking on 'imo' doesn't change the fact that what you wrote is incorrect as written. Being punched is not in itself justification for using lethal force under SYG. The person who uses lethal force needs to have a *reasonable* belief that his/her life is threatened or that they are going to suffer grievous harm. Considering that GZ used to be a bouncer, being punched by a slim youth should not give him a reasonable fear for his life. I can't believe how often I've had to read this misinformation, often from the same posters over and over again.

katydid23
05-16-2012, 07:44 PM
Hi, I've been lurking but this caught my eye. I think this proves he has a depraved mind. What person after just undergoing such a traumatic incident and especially one which you took someone's life is ready to work?It had not even been 24 hours. I just think anyone would have took a sick day at least...It really shows that he had no sympathy whatsoever for the person (Trayvon) he had just killed. jmo

How do we know he went back to work immediately. Maybe he needed to medical report in order for him to take a few days off, and THEN go back to work?

Reader
05-16-2012, 07:48 PM
Hi, I've been lurking but this caught my eye. I think this proves he has a depraved mind. What person after just undergoing such a traumatic incident and especially one which you took someone's life is ready to work?It had not even been 24 hours. I just think anyone would have took a sick day at least...It really shows that he had no sympathy whatsoever for the person (Trayvon) he had just killed. jmo


Bingo, thank you and welcome!

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 07:52 PM
Hi, I've been lurking but this caught my eye. I think this proves he has a depraved mind. What person after just undergoing such a traumatic incident and especially one which you took someone's life is ready to work?It had not even been 24 hours. I just think anyone would have took a sick day at least...It really shows that he had no sympathy whatsoever for the person (Trayvon) he had just killed. jmo

I do not believe we know enough to make that characterization.

People react differently to tragic events. Some immediately collapse, emotionally. Some function in shock, going about their daily business, and eventually break down.

He was not a man of significant means, and he may have been paid by the hour. He may also have had a lot of work backed up and been under pressure to get through a certain amount of work in a short amount of time, at the risk of losing his job if he fell behind.

We really just can't know.

I also don't know that GZ had any clue at that point *who* he had killed. I don't believe the parents even knew he was dead yet. He may very well have been under the assumption that he had stopped a burglary that was about to happen and had killed somebody who had was responsible for his neighborhood living on eggshells and getting big dogs and concealed carry permits... in which case he might not have felt 'sympathy' for the person he had killed. Regret that he had not been able to stop him without loss of life, maybe... but not necessarily sympathy for someone he had originally suspected of being up to mischief who hid, came back around, walked up and asked him a question, and then began beating him up.

I wasn't there, obviously, so I do not know that that's what TM did. The trial will determine that. I just mean that that is GZ's contention regarding what TM did, and if it is accurate, the next day GZ may have been walking around believing he was responsible for the death of a *criminal*... as opposed to, as he is often called, "... an unarmed boy who had just bought some candy."

gxm
05-16-2012, 08:17 PM
Hi, I've been lurking but this caught my eye. I think this proves he has a depraved mind. What person after just undergoing such a traumatic incident and especially one which you took someone's life is ready to work?It had not even been 24 hours. I just think anyone would have took a sick day at least...It really shows that he had no sympathy whatsoever for the person (Trayvon) he had just killed. jmo

BBM.

Someone in still in shock.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Emma Peel
05-16-2012, 08:20 PM
If by provoked you mean hitting someone in the nose knocking him to the ground and bashing his head to the ground after they ask you a question, then yes SYG or even plain old self defense would be justified. JMO.


In the example given, by provoked, I meant threatening someone to the point of inciting a fight. Then would SYG apply?? I don't know if FL has flushed that law out in every manner possible yet. So...here we have another chance to clarify the rights of the aggressively gun-happy.

LambChop
05-16-2012, 08:29 PM
My son broke his nose on two occasions. Neither time was he sent to a specialist for further care. Unless it is a 'twisted' type break, or one that is distorted in some way, there is no further treatment necessary. It just needs to heal. ' No More Hockey' for awhile were our only instructions.

But the doctor recommended he see one. You go to a doctor and then ignore his advice?? GZ seems to do that a lot with authority figures. And it does seem as if he got what he wanted to prove he was hurt and did not need a specialist to tell him it wasn't broken. I would think if it really bothered him he would have gone. jmo

jjenny
05-16-2012, 08:35 PM
But the doctor recommended he see one. You go to a doctor and then ignore his advice?? GZ seems to do that a lot with authority figures. And it does seem as if he got what he wanted to prove he was hurt and did not need a specialist to tell him it wasn't broken. I would think if it really bothered him he would have gone. jmo

As far as I can tell, there is no special treatment for a broken nose. It just has to heal. Given that, Zimmerman might have felt there is no point of going to a specialist.

RANCH
05-16-2012, 08:42 PM
In the example given, by provoked, I meant threatening someone to the point of inciting a fight. Then would SYG apply?? I don't know if FL has flushed that law out in every manner possible yet. So...here we have another chance to clarify the rights of the aggressively gun-happy.

Do you mean threatening them with words or a weapon? If its words I don't believe someone can assault the person saying those words. JMO.

elementary
05-16-2012, 08:48 PM
bbn

I don't know Dr.Fessel. _ :waitasec:

Didn't ABC eventually get caught with their pants down over the $200,000 payment for the exclusive rights to the Caylee photos and videos?

Didn't that happen in court though? Baez et al were forced to disclose the info at FCA's indigency hearing IIRC.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 08:48 PM
Not in Texas either.

So is those bad drugs George was taking going to be his defense?

Back in the day we called them uppers and downers.

We don't know if GZ was/is taking them. Just that they were prescribed.

I have about 10 prescriptions in my medicine cabinet that I don't take.

tehcloser
05-16-2012, 08:51 PM
Yeah it's a shame LE didn't test him that night so we would know for sure one way or another.

LinasK
05-16-2012, 08:52 PM
I do not believe we know enough to make that characterization.

People react differently to tragic events. Some immediately collapse, emotionally. Some function in shock, going about their daily business, and eventually break down.

He was not a man of significant means, and he may have been paid by the hour. He may also have had a lot of work backed up and been under pressure to get through a certain amount of work in a short amount of time, at the risk of losing his job if he fell behind.

We really just can't know.

I also don't know that GZ had any clue at that point *who* he had killed. I don't believe the parents even knew he was dead yet. He may very well have been under the assumption that he had stopped a burglary that was about to happen and had killed somebody who had was responsible for his neighborhood living on eggshells and getting big dogs and concealed carry permits... in which case he might not have felt 'sympathy' for the person he had killed. Regret that he had not been able to stop him without loss of life, maybe... but not necessarily sympathy for someone he had originally suspected of being up to mischief who hid, came back around, walked up and asked him a question, and then began beating him up.

I wasn't there, obviously, so I do not know that that's what TM did. The trial will determine that. I just mean that that is GZ's contention regarding what TM did, and if it is accurate, the next day GZ may have been walking around believing he was responsible for the death of a *criminal*... as opposed to, as he is often called, "... an unarmed boy who had just bought some candy."
BBM . :hand: But Trayvon was just "an unarmed boy who had just bought candy"... He committed no crime, had no burglary tools on him. Meanwhile, there are some who suppose George stood over Trayvon after he shot him and frisked his pockets! Imagine what surprise George must have felt! He had plenty of time prior to his bond hearing to express his remorse to Trayvon's parents...

LambChop
05-16-2012, 08:52 PM
We don't know if GZ was/is taking them. Just that they were prescribed.

I have about 10 prescriptions in my medicine cabinet that I don't take.

I would think it would be worse for him if he admitted he wasn't taking them. The doctor prescribed them for a reason, wouldn't you think???? jmo

elementary
05-16-2012, 08:55 PM
IMO, he's calling the shots as to what gets released. Anything that makes his client look good will come out and anything that casts any doubt (or as O'Mara calls it "inflammatory evidence") will be held back. He's got this all figured out while the lottery pot grows. imo

ITA! How better to make his client look good than to finesse the info that is "leaked"? And then feel justified in splitting hairs in his response, so that he can dissemble and come out smelling like a rose. I cannot believe this was leaked and was leaked so quickly! And was not leaked until such time as the defence got the discovery.

norest4thewicked
05-16-2012, 08:59 PM
BBM . :hand: But Trayvon was just "an unarmed boy who had just bought candy"... He committed no crime, had no burglary tools on him. Meanwhile, there are some who suppose George stood over Trayvon after he shot him and frisked his pockets! Imagine what surprise George must have felt! He had plenty of time prior to his bond hearing to express his remorse to Trayvon's parents...

BBM

I thought that GZ was told by LE and/or attorneys not to contact the Martin"s?

beach
05-16-2012, 09:00 PM
He wasn't asked if he released it. This was not a court document, it was just Georges medical report. There are no court stamps on the top of it.
If he gave it to ABC or sold it to them he could answer honestly he did not leak it because it was not a leak.

If he did release it he can say he did not "leak" it to help Zimmerman.

He can say anything he wants because ABC will never disclose who gave it to them.

BBM

I said on another thread that I think the likely source of the leak is MOM.

That said,

Even when these docs are released per the Sunshine Laws, there will not be any court stamps on them. Discovery is exchanged between the parties and the only thing filed with the Court will be a Notice of Discovery. A simple, one page notice advising the Court that the parties have exchanged specific discovery docs.

I do know that in Florida the Clerks office gets copies of the discovery exchanged to release to anyone willing to pay for the copies. Also, they have a room where you can review the docs if you don't want to pay for the copies.

The only time you will ever see any of these documents officially filed with the Court will be right before entering them into evidence at a hearing or trial. Even then, they will be entered with an evidence sticker identifying them by a # for the official court transcript.

LinasK
05-16-2012, 09:04 PM
BBM

I thought that GZ was told by LE and/or attorneys not to contact the Martin"s?
We don't know that. I highly doubt LE would tell him that, and since his other attorneys are off the case, we'll never know if they advised him of that or not...

elementary
05-16-2012, 09:05 PM
Tacking on 'imo' doesn't change the fact that what you wrote is incorrect as written. Being punched is not in itself justification for using lethal force under SYG. The person who uses lethal force needs to have a *reasonable* belief that his/her life is threatened or that they are going to suffer grievous harm. Considering that GZ used to be a bouncer, being punched by a slim youth should not give him a reasonable fear for his life. I can't believe how often I've had to read this misinformation, often from the same posters over and over again.

You make a really good point! Who of us actually believes that in a dust up someone is out to kill us??? And GZ had the gun! And Trayvon was a young kid with no gun, only fists at best. Usually and reasonably fists do not kill.

It is unreasonable, IMO, to think that Trayvon was going to kill GZ. Heck, he wasn't even a bouncer, bodyguard, secret agent, militia type, 200 lbs, versed in the art of boxing or martial arts, etc etc. Seriously, how can you fear for your life in a fist fight? From this callow kid? It makes no sense.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 09:12 PM
I would think it would be worse for him if he admitted he wasn't taking them. The doctor prescribed them for a reason, wouldn't you think???? jmo

Every Dr. has a reason for prescribing every medicine.
But, that does not mean we always take them.

Like I said, I have several prescriptions that I don't take.
Just one example:
Tramadol (for fibromyalgia pain) makes me sick. I have a full prescription minus 1 pill.

There are many reasons people don't take a medicine.

Again, just because something is prescribed does not mean its taken.

The fact is we don't know if he was taking it.
That's why I responded to a post that stated GZ was taking them.


JMO

wowitsdark
05-16-2012, 10:38 PM
But the doctor recommended he see one. You go to a doctor and then ignore his advice?? GZ seems to do that a lot with authority figures. And it does seem as if he got what he wanted to prove he was hurt and did not need a specialist to tell him it wasn't broken. I would think if it really bothered him he would have gone. jmo

I ignore dr's advice all the time.

If it's going to cost additional $ and I do not believe that what they are suggesting is necessary - or at the very least, that I can hold off doing something they suggested to determine if I *really* need to go to the trouble - I don't jump just because a dr. suggested that I do.

More often than not, the situation resolves itself without me ever going in again.

Dr's have to suggest things to cover themselves from sue-happy people who might later complain that they didn't do enough. Doesn't mean that their referrals are always warranted.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:47 PM
Most broken noses heal on their own.

IMO it was not necessary to see an ENT unless a problem occurred.

JMO

ETA: I pulled a lot of info regarding broken noses for the other GZ injury thread that is now closed. I'll see if I can find it.

deelytful1
05-16-2012, 10:52 PM
Every Dr. has a reason for prescribing every medicine.
But, that does not mean we always take them.

Like I said, I have several prescriptions that I don't take.
Just one example:
Tramadol (for fibromyalgia pain) makes me sick. I have a full prescription minus 1 pill.

There are many reasons people don't take a medicine.

Again, just because something is prescribed does not mean its taken.

The fact is we don't know if he was taking it.
That's why I responded to a post that stated GZ was taking them.


JMO


Yes, and we'll never know if he WAS taking his meds or not because the SPD wasn't doing their JOBS. Adderall is an amphetamine and even if only tested for "illegal drugs" it WOULD have shown up.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 10:58 PM
Signs and symptoms of a broken nose may appear immediately or may take up to three days to develop. Signs and symptoms may include:

Pain or tenderness, especially when touching your nose
Swelling of your nose and surrounding areas
Bleeding from your nose
Bruising around your nose or eyes
Crooked or misshapen nose
Difficulty breathing through your nose
Discharge of mucus from your nose (rhinorrhea)
Feeling that one or both of your nasal passages are blocked


If you have a minor fracture that hasn't caused your nose to become crooked or otherwise misshapen, you may not need professional medical treatment. Your doctor may recommend simple self-care measures, such as using ice on the area and taking over-the-counter pain medications.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/broken-nose/DS00992/DSECTION=treatments%2Dand%2Ddrugs

Dr.Fessel
05-16-2012, 11:03 PM
Every Dr. has a reason for prescribing every medicine.
But, that does not mean we always take them.

Like I said, I have several prescriptions that I don't take.
Just one example:
Tramadol (for fibromyalgia pain) makes me sick. I have a full prescription minus 1 pill.

There are many reasons people don't take a medicine.

Again, just because something is prescribed does not mean its taken.

The fact is we don't know if he was taking it.
That's why I responded to a post that stated GZ was taking them.


JMO

That might be the reason George displayed such crazy decision making that night, he was off his meds.

Kimberlyd125
05-16-2012, 11:05 PM
That might be the reason George displayed such crazy decision making that night, he was off his meds.

I guess if you consider his decision making crazy, that might be a reason.
We will never know.
IMO

K_Z
05-16-2012, 11:25 PM
Iliotibial band syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliotibial_band_syndrome)

Illiotibial Band Syndrome applies to the knee joint. :) I am pretty certain that is what the medical person is referring to. You can get it when you hyperextend the joint side to side. I had it once.

I'm the "KZ" the poster was referring to. (That part of the quote didn't come thru.)

It's my opinion that the "IBS" in the snippet of GZ's summary narrative is "given dx of IBS", meaning, a prior diagnosis/ history of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The sentence is in continuity (same sentence and bullet point) with the pain pill discussion of the presribed "Lodine", which is an NSAID. NSAID's are well known for GI irritation as a side effect, and it's my opinion that the health care provider was discussing potential side effects from the NSAID-- demonstrating that he/ she counseled the patient about risks of the med.

IzzyBlanche
05-16-2012, 11:40 PM
Hi Kimberlyd125,

In answer to this part of your post on the other thread:


But the injuries were documented on the initial police report.


I disagree. The police report said he was bleeding from his nose and his head.

It did NOT say his nose was broken. Even the leaked medical report did not say that IIRC, it said a "probable" broken nose.

Isabelle
05-16-2012, 11:42 PM
I'm the "KZ" the poster was referring to. (That part of the quote didn't come thru.)

It's my opinion that the "IBS" in the snippet of GZ's summary narrative is "given dx of IBS", meaning, a prior diagnosis/ history of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The sentence is in continuity (same sentence and bullet point) with the pain pill discussion of the presribed "Lodine", which is an NSAID. NSAID's are well known for GI irritation as a side effect, and it's my opinion that the health care provider was discussing potential side effects from the NSAID-- demonstrating that he/ she counseled the patient about risks of the med.

I fully agree with your interpretation of IBS and its congruency with the rest of the statement.

Just K
05-16-2012, 11:47 PM
This seems relevant to both the Injury Threads so I am posting it in both places. Hope that is okie dokie:
All of GZ's medical complaints can easily be explained by his grabbing Tm, slipping in the wet grass, tumbling to the ground and Trayvon coming down on top of him:

Sore back (coming from a fall...they did end up on the ground)

"LIKELY" Broken Nose (any part of TM, an elbow, a knee, his head, anything could have bumped into GZ's nose as they tumbled to the ground)

Two lacerations, one 1/4 inch area were skin was dug out and the 1 inch one that went across his scalp could have come either by hitting his head up against any hard object, the tree, the poop disposal can, the white drainage grates or they could be from TM's fingernails.

DG, never said that the injuries were only consistent with hitting his head against something harder. He said, re: the possibility that it was from concrete, "it could be."
When pressed by O'Mara as to whether DG said it was consistent he said, "I said consistent."

However, O'Mara left out the fact that the "lacerations" were superficial and thus almost anything harder than skin could have caused those lacerations.

ALL IMO.

deelytful1
05-16-2012, 11:49 PM
I don't care a lick about the "fractured" nose and what it would look like/not have looked like a day or a week after. I agree with Dr Fessel in a previous post that TM may have head butted GZ as GZ was trying to restrain him.
This was MY personal theory all along (that the injuries were caused to GZ as TM was trying to get away from him)
I hope that the evidence is released very soon because all these "theories" on both sides of the spectrum in MSM is causing a world of civil unrest in many parts of this country (Imagine these forums * a billion). "Leaks" should not be happening in an honest, legal setting. These games are enough to make me want to hurl. The sunshine laws are laws for a reason.. they need to just release the documents already!
(yes, yes i know there's a process but the waiting is interminable....)

vlpate
05-17-2012, 12:37 AM
I don't care a lick about the "fractured" nose and what it would look like/not have looked like a day or a week after. I agree with Dr Fessel in a previous post that TM may have head butted GZ as GZ was trying to restrain him.
And yet TM suffered no injuries to his head after butting GZ so hard he gave him a broken nose and two black eyes?
<respectfully snipped>
JMO

Kimberlyd125
05-17-2012, 07:58 AM
Hi Kimberlyd125,

In answer to this part of your post on the other thread:



I disagree. The police report said he was bleeding from his nose and his head.

It did NOT say his nose was broken. Even the leaked medical report did not say that IIRC, it said a "probable" broken nose.

I never said the police report said he had a broken nose.

We were discussing the fact that some think it's possible that GZ or one if his friends "broke" his nose after that night and before the Dr. visit.

The police were there within a few minutes of the shot. GZ was bleeding from his nose according to the initial police report.

I think it's highly unlikely his injuries were self inflicted after he was released from the police station that night.

HIGHLY unlikely.

JMO

LambChop
05-17-2012, 08:05 AM
And yet TM suffered no injuries to his head after butting GZ so hard he gave him a broken nose and two black eyes?
<respectfully snipped>
JMO

In a fall it could have been anything that hit GZ's nose, even the can of ice tea, or from the gun snapping back. GZ was on the ground when he fired and I assume it had to have been pretty close to his face. jmo

Dr.Fessel
05-17-2012, 11:24 AM
The largest skin tear on Zimmerman's head.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/head2.jpg

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-suffered-injuries-alleged-scuffle-trayvon-martin-report-article-1.1078882

norest4thewicked
05-17-2012, 11:32 AM
The largest skin tear on Zimmerman's head.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/kensaroo/head2.jpg

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-suffered-injuries-alleged-scuffle-trayvon-martin-report-article-1.1078882

It looks even worse up close...

Helplessly Hoping
05-17-2012, 11:33 AM
That might be the reason George displayed such crazy decision making that night, he was off his meds.

I imagine that this opens the door to his full psychological/psychiatric history--I've always wondered whether or not he should have been able to carry a gun just from his actions that night. I would consider it impulsive (a trait of ADHD) to shoot an unarmed person while KNOWING LE was on its way. :waitasec:

RANCH
05-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Does ADHD make someone more violent than an average person?

Phoenixfla
05-17-2012, 11:50 AM
Sorry for this off topic post - but does anyone know where the Defense Perspective thread went to?

I was posting a reply, and it went poof.

Elley Mae
05-17-2012, 11:51 AM
Does ADHD make someone more violent than an average person?

Evidently it depends on who you ask jmo:fence:

LambChop
05-17-2012, 11:56 AM
Does ADHD make someone more violent than an average person?

From those I know who have it, let's say they're fuses might be shorter than normal. jmo

RANCH
05-17-2012, 12:00 PM
From those I know who have it, let's say they're fuses might be shorter than normal. jmo

So they get violent quicker than an average person?

zenreaper
05-17-2012, 12:04 PM
ITA! How better to make his client look good than to finesse the info that is "leaked"? And then feel justified in splitting hairs in his response, so that he can dissemble and come out smelling like a rose. I cannot believe this was leaked and was leaked so quickly! And was not leaked until such time as the defence got the discovery.

If the prosecution leaked it BEFORE discovery, its a crime, not after.

gxm
05-17-2012, 12:46 PM
"Martinís parents are disputing Zimmermanís medical report, saying he was not beaten as badly as he claims he was." (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/records-detail-george-zimmermans-medical-injuries/nN7Dh/)

Interesting how the accusations keep getting walked back. Initially, the assertion was that GZ hadn't been beaten (because he looked too unruffled on the PD tape), now that there's proof of his injuries the new meme is that he wasn't beaten "as badly" as he claims. It reminds me of the racial slur meme, which had to be walked back to "punks."

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

m00c0w
05-17-2012, 01:07 PM
In a fall it could have been anything that hit GZ's nose, even the can of ice tea, or from the gun snapping back. GZ was on the ground when he fired and I assume it had to have been pretty close to his face. jmo
The recoil from a 9mm handgun would not cause two black eyes and a nose doctors said was likely broken. Not even "possibly" broken, but likely.

JMO

tehcloser
05-17-2012, 01:14 PM
I think it was just GZ family doctor that said it was "likely" broken, not a "nose" doctor. HTH.