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HiHater
05-17-2012, 09:05 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70000036/News/Trayvon-s-girlfriend-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

Very sad at the end, the girlfriend's statement answers lots of questions...

TiaMarie
05-17-2012, 10:11 PM
Did I hear it correctly at the end she said TM was saying "Get off, get off"?

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:19 PM
Did I hear it correctly at the end she said TM was saying "Get off, get off"?

She did say that, but she also said that was after the headset had already fallen off. So I don't know how she would be able to figure out which one was saying "get off."

Lovejac
05-17-2012, 10:20 PM
Did I hear it correctly at the end she said TM was saying "Get off, get off"?

That's what I heard, too.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:20 PM
She did say that, but at that time head phones were already off. So I don't know how she would be able to figure out which one was saying "get off."

Maybe she knows Trayvon's voice? She had already stated that GZ sounded like an old man or something like that...

She also kept saying he heard a "little bit", I think it's just the way she speaks?

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Maybe she knows Trayvon's voice? She had already stated that GZ sounded like an old man or something like that...

She also kept saying he heard a "little bit", I think it's just the way she speaks?

GZ sure doesn't sound like an "old man" to me. And never mind he is only 28. And she only came up with "get off" after much probing from an interviewer.

TiaMarie
05-17-2012, 10:26 PM
She did say that, but she also said that was after the headset had already fallen off. So I don't know how she would be able to figure out which one was saying "get off."
I think its obvious that she knew her boyfriends voice. I could tell people apart by voice even from a distance. I think most people could do the same.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:27 PM
I think its obvious that she knew her boyfriends voice. I could tell people apart by voice even from a distance. I think most people could do the same.

She also thinks that Trayvon was the one punched when the head set fell off, but she didn't witness it. So why did she make that conclusion? If he was punched, why doesn't he have any injuries to show that he was punched? Nothing except an injury to a finger below a knuckle. She had to be probed repeatedly on what she heard after the head set was off, which indicates to me she isn't all that sure.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:28 PM
GZ sure doesn't sound like an "old man" to me. And never mind he is only 28. And she only came up with "get off" after much probing from an interviewer.

Not to mention it wasn't mentioned in the not-really-an-interview that was done by.. CNN?

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Not to mention it wasn't mentioned in the not-really-an-interview that was done by.. CNN?

And I believe that the Martin's family lawyer didn't mention it either. Doesn't appear like anything about "get off" came out until the interviewer kept on probing and probing.

TiaMarie
05-17-2012, 10:31 PM
She also thinks that Trayvon was the one punched when the head set fell off, but she didn't witness it. So why did she make that conclusion? She had to be probed repeatedly on what she heard after the head set was off, which indicates to me she isn't all that sure.
I disagree. I really think she was just very upset and emotional and it was extremely hard for her to talk about it. Did you notice how she said she felt very guilty?

The poor thing must feel horrible about not being able to help him that night. I know I would be devastated. They are just kids. :( This is going to haunt the poor girl for the rest of her life.

I also think that she is telling the absolute truth because if she wanted to make up a story, it would have been a much more damaging story than that was.

Lovejac
05-17-2012, 10:31 PM
Maybe she knows Trayvon's voice? She had already stated that GZ sounded like an old man or something like that...

She also kept saying he heard a "little bit", I think it's just the way she speaks?

BBM, yeah, I was having troubling following along the first time I listened.

I think by "little bit" she means that she didn't hear it as loudly as she heard the other things (before Trayvon's headset was knocked off)

JeannaT
05-17-2012, 10:32 PM
Was she on medication to deal with anxiety? I empathize with her position, in grief for her boyfriend, but she sounds drugged out of her mind. I wonder if they interviewed her later, when she was more lucid. In this tape, she sounds like an EXTREMELY sleepy 30+ year old, not like a young teenage girl.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:33 PM
I disagree. I really think she was just very upset and emotional and it was extremely hard for her to talk about it. Did you notice how she said she felt very guilty?

The poor thing must feel horrible about not being able to help him that night. I know I would be devastated. They are just kids. :( This is going to haunt the poor girl for the rest of her life.

I also think that she is telling the absolute truth because if she wanted to make up a story, it would have been a much more damaging story than that was.

What do you disagree about? She was emotional, but what does that have to do with how accurate the statement was? She speculates Trayvon was the one punched when the head set fell off, yet where are the injuries to Trayvon to support that idea? She might have heard something regarding "get off" but that was already after head set was off. So whatever she heard was likely very faint.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:33 PM
I disagree. I really think she was just very upset and emotional and it was extremely hard for her to talk about it. Did you notice how she said she felt very guilty?

<snip for relevance>

Bold: I absolutely did. My immediate thought was "Are you kidding me? You felt guilty yet you didn't contact anyone even after learning that your boyrfriend was shot?"

Note: "Anyone" includes Mr. Martin's parents, the local law enforcement, an attorney, ANYONE.

kimpage
05-17-2012, 10:41 PM
WOW I just listened to her statement and am tearing up..She sounds so upset and she should not feel guilty...I hope her parents get her help to deal with this....IMHO JMHO and all that

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:47 PM
Was she on medication to deal with anxiety? I empathize with her position, in grief for her boyfriend, but she sounds drugged out of her mind. I wonder if they interviewed her later, when she was more lucid. In this tape, she sounds like an EXTREMELY sleepy 30+ year old, not like a young teenage girl.

You have a baseline voice to compare this to?

I don't and would like a link if you have one.

Also, to me, it sounds like she was crying/emotional.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:48 PM
And I believe that the Martin's family lawyer didn't mention it either. Doesn't appear like anything about "get off" came out until the interviewer kept on probing and probing.

He did not probe her to say that, he probed her clarify what she had already said.

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 10:49 PM
She did say that, but she also said that was after the headset had already fallen off. So I don't know how she would be able to figure out which one was saying "get off."

I would assume if she was his girlfriend spent 5 hours or so on the phone with him just that day, she would recognize his voice????

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:50 PM
Bold: I absolutely did. My immediate thought was "Are you kidding me? You felt guilty yet you didn't contact anyone even after learning that your boyrfriend was shot?"

Note: "Anyone" includes Mr. Martin's parents, the local law enforcement, an attorney, NO ONE.

She is not a trained law enforcement officer or investigator. I refuse to shift the blame to a 15-16 year old child. They didn't do their jobs, regardless of what obstacles stood in the way---they didn't get to her like they should have. Witnesses don't always come forward...

JMO

Karmady
05-17-2012, 10:51 PM
Bold: I absolutely did. My immediate thought was "Are you kidding me? You felt guilty yet you didn't contact anyone even after learning that your boyrfriend was shot?"

Note: "Anyone" includes Mr. Martin's parents, the local law enforcement, an attorney, NO ONE.

My speculation is that she felt guilty only AFTER she was told the same story Crump sold to the media about how Trayvon had been hunted down like an animal by a "white" racist vigilante. Notice how she said that Trayvon had concluded that George was "white" when he saw George in his car...really? He concluded that a "latino-looking" guy was white even though the guy was in his car, in the dark, at a distance. Not buyin' that at all even assuming that you could conclude, visually, that George is white under ANY circumstances. Even the officers on the scene described him as latino.

I think that the girl initially didn't come forward because she and whomever she told about the phone conversation, if anyone, assumed that the circumstances of his death were in some way related to Trayvon's own conduct. I think Crump convinced her that she was way wrong about that and THAT is why she felt guilty, if she did. jmo

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:51 PM
GZ sure doesn't sound like an "old man" to me. And never mind he is only 28. And she only came up with "get off" after much probing from an interviewer.

To her, he sounded like an old man. Since it's her statement, I trust her perception.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:52 PM
My speculation is that she felt guilty only AFTER she was told the same story Crump sold to the media about how Trayvon had been hunted down like an animal by a "white" racist vigilante. Notice how she said that Trayvon had concluded that George was "white" when he saw George in his car...really? He concluded that a "latino-looking" guy was white even though the guy was in his car, in the dark, at a distance. Not buyin' that at all even assuming that you could conclude, visually, that George is white under ANY circumstances. Even the officers on the scene described him as latino.

I think that the girl initially didn't come forward because she and whomever she told about the phone conversation, if anyone, assumed that the circumstances of his death were in some way related to Trayvon's own conduct. I think Crump convinced her that she was way wrong about that and THAT is while she felt guilty, if she did. jmo

The police concluded he was white too, per the police report.

Karmady
05-17-2012, 10:54 PM
The police concluded he was white too, per the police report.

Read the doc. dump. It's in there. And it's part of the narrative, not just the label attached at the top of the report.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:54 PM
I would assume if she was his girlfriend spent 5 hours or so on the phone with him just that day, she would recognize his voice????

She says I could hear a little bit, and that is after he asks her Last you heard was some type of noise and she responds "yea."

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 10:55 PM
I disagree. I really think she was just very upset and emotional and it was extremely hard for her to talk about it. Did you notice how she said she felt very guilty?

The poor thing must feel horrible about not being able to help him that night. I know I would be devastated. They are just kids. :( This is going to haunt the poor girl for the rest of her life.

I also think that she is telling the absolute truth because if she wanted to make up a story, it would have been a much more damaging story than that was.

BBM.

This.

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 10:55 PM
Bold: I absolutely did. My immediate thought was "Are you kidding me? You felt guilty yet you didn't contact anyone even after learning that your boyrfriend was shot?"

Note: "Anyone" includes Mr. Martin's parents, the local law enforcement, an attorney, NO ONE.

She's a CHILD and children do not have the same thought processes we as adults do... I'm sure this is just another reason WHY she feels guilty.
When I was a child a friend of mine claimed to be suicidal over a girl and called me crying.... I talked to him and never in a million YEARS thought to tell my parents! He called 2 other friends that night as well and NO one contacted his or their own parents. He was found dead the next day... I felt guilty for years until i realized... Kids just don't THINK the way adults do and can NOT be held responsible for that kind of stuff!

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:55 PM
The police concluded he was white too, per the police report.

Police do not "conclude" someone's race.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:55 PM
I would assume if she was his girlfriend spent 5 hours or so on the phone with him just that day, she would recognize his voice????

The head set was already off. By her own admission, she could only hear a "little bit" whatever that means.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:56 PM
Police do not "conclude" someone's race.

Semantics.

They listed his race as white on the police report.

I hope that's clearer?

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:56 PM
She is not a trained law enforcement officer or investigator. I refuse to shift the blame to a 15-16 year old child. They didn't do their jobs, regardless of what obstacles stood in the way---they didn't get to her like they should have. Witnesses don't always come forward...

JMO

Where did I blame her? I believe my statement implies lack of trust in what I heard.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:56 PM
To her, he sounded like an old man. Since it's her statement, I trust her perception.

Well maybe 28 years old is ancient to a 16 year old.

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 10:57 PM
She says I could hear a little bit, and that is after he asks her Last you heard was some type of noise and she responds "yea."

I listened to it... so I'm not getting your point here?

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:57 PM
She's a CHILD and children do not have the same thought processes we as adults do... I'm sure this is just another reason WHY she feels guilty.
When I was a child a friend of mine claimed to be suicidal over a girl and called me crying.... I talked to him and never in a million YEARS thought to tell my parents! He called 2 other friends that night as well and NO one contacted his or their own parents. He was found dead the next day... I felt guilty for years until i realized... Kids just don't THINK the way adults do and can NOT be held responsible for that kind of stuff!

So what you're saying is that:
1) Her parents have no conscience or
2) She didn't even tell them

So... we're right back to where we started.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 10:58 PM
I listened to it... so I'm not getting your point here?

My point is, after the head set was off, whatever she heard likely was very faint.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:58 PM
Well maybe 28 years old is ancient to a 16 year old.

Perhaps.

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 10:59 PM
Well maybe 28 years old is ancient to a 16 year old.

I agree....

HiHater
05-17-2012, 10:59 PM
My point is, after the head set was off, whatever she heard likely was very faint.

Which is exactly what she said, she just doesn't have as vast of a vocabulary as you do.

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 11:01 PM
So what you're saying is that:
1) Her parents have no conscience or
2) She didn't even tell them

So... we're right back to where we started.

I'm sorry.. can you explain how you got "her parents have no conscience" after all that?

deelytful1
05-17-2012, 11:06 PM
Police do not "conclude" someone's race.

They most certainly do! if they see a suspect fleeing from a scene.. even though what may be in reality a "light skinned latino" they will put in their report "a white male" if that's what they "think" he may be.
If they see a light skinned black man, they might put in their report that they appeared to see a latino.
They are trying to "identify" by the color of their skin.
Common practice....

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 11:07 PM
Well maybe 28 years old is ancient to a 16 year old.

O/T but when I was in high school several of my teachers were about that age. I didn't think they were ancient, but I did think of them as being "much" older than the 10 years that actually separated us. At 16 that 10-year gulf seems much wider than it does as we age. And in fact it is, in terms of human development. But I'm rambling.

However, as I recall, I don't think I would have mistaken their voices for one of my male classmates's, unless it was one of those rare boys who had really deep voices at that age.

JMO.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 11:08 PM
I'm sorry.. can you explain how you got "her parents have no conscience" after all that?

Any parent that I've ever known would've wondered why their daughter was so distraught and tried to fix it. Convincing her to speak with the police was not Mr. Crump's job, it was her parent's job as it would have let her get the story off her chest and also allow investigators to use the information to try and convict the person who killed her "boyfriend". This does not seem to be the case. You were correct, adults and children do think differently but I would've expected an adult to say "hey, you need to do the right thing - it'll make you feel better in the end" IF (and that's a big IF) they were aware of it. This leads me to believe they weren't aware of it, which leads me to believe that she wasn't very distraught over it - just as her feeling of "guilt" is not credible to me.

jjenny
05-17-2012, 11:08 PM
O/T but when I was in high school several of my teachers were about that age. I didn't think they were ancient, but I did think of them as being "much" older than the 10 years that actually separated us. At 16 that 10-year gulf seems much wider than it does as we age. And in fact it is, in terms of human development. But I'm rambling.

However, as I recall, I don't think I would have mistaken their voices for one of my male classmates's, unless it was one of those rare boys who had really deep voices at that age.

JMO.

Zimmerman doesn't have a deep voice. He has a kind of high pitched voice that we all heard on him calling 911.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 11:09 PM
They most certainly do! if they see a suspect fleeing from a scene.. even though what may be in reality a "light skinned latino" they will put in their report "a white male" if that's what they "think" he may be.
If they see a light skinned black man, they might put in their report that they appeared to see a latino.
They are trying to "identify" by the color of their skin.
Common practice....

You misunderstood what I said. Just because a police officer says "that person is Peruvian" doesn't make it to be truth. They can not "conclude" someone's race for them. Their interpretation of the race that the person falls under goes on the sheet of paper, that doesn't make it to be truth.

HiHater
05-17-2012, 11:12 PM
You misunderstood what I said. Just because a police officer says "that person is Peruvian" doesn't make it to be truth. They can not "conclude" someone's race for them. Their interpretation of the race that the person falls under goes on the sheet of paper, that doesn't make it to be truth.

This whole discussion is because Trayvon interpreted GZ to be white.

Soooo....

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 11:14 PM
So what you're saying is that:
1) Her parents have no conscience or
2) She didn't even tell them

So... we're right back to where we started.

Maybe she didn't tell them. The info is flowing too quickly for me to keep up with and still keep my job, so maybe she didn't and if she didn't, there are an infinite number of reasons teenaged girls don't tell their parents things. I know this having been one once myself back in the Mesozoic Age.

Maybe she did tell them. If she and her family are AA, do you realize the unlikelihood that they would voluntarily involve themselves with LE?

Even if they aren't AA, do you realize the reluctance people in general have to involve themselves as witnesses in a potential crime if they aren't forced to?

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 11:29 PM
Maybe she didn't tell them.
<snip for relevance>

Maybe she did tell them. If she and her family are AA, do you realize the unlikelihood that they would voluntarily involve themselves with LE?

Even if they aren't AA, do you realize the reluctance people in general have to involve themselves as witnesses in a potential crime if they aren't forced to?

I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.

Karmady
05-17-2012, 11:38 PM
FTR, at page 18 of the pdf, an officer who responded to the scene described George as Latino - just Latino. I think there may have been another reference in there, possibly to "hispanic" rather than Latino, somewhere, but this the one I was thinking of. It was Serino who said he was white. Regardless, clearly he isn't. And no amount of putting it in your report changes that. jmo

IzzyBlanche
05-17-2012, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.

I meant that for many AAs, "doing the right thing" does not necessarily = voluntarily involving oneself with LE, particularly considering the historical relationships in our country between these two entities. Fire hoses directed on peaceful marchers, for example.

And no, KG had no mob connections apart from the unfortunate coincidence of her last name.

elementary
05-17-2012, 11:52 PM
She also thinks that Trayvon was the one punched when the head set fell off, but she didn't witness it. So why did she make that conclusion? If he was punched, why doesn't he have any injuries to show that he was punched? Nothing except an injury to a finger below a knuckle. She had to be probed repeatedly on what she heard after the head set was off, which indicates to me she isn't all that sure.

Maybe she assumed he was punched. Maybe he was grabbed. She obviously knew something was happening.

As for probing, if you check witness reports, some of them too, were probed. People may report but LE may need more details. Sounds reasonable to me.

Karmady
05-17-2012, 11:56 PM
Maybe she assumed he was punched. Maybe he was grabbed. She obviously knew something was happening.

As for probing, if you check witness reports, some of them too, were probed. People may report but LE may need more details. Sounds reasonable to me.

She wasn't probed, imo, she was led.

elementary
05-17-2012, 11:56 PM
I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.

Well, clearly you haven't walked in their shoes. I wish life were so black and white.

Alecto
05-17-2012, 11:59 PM
I'm still reading the doc dump but on page 16-17 the SPD is trying to unlock the phone. First they had been hampered by the phone not working (possibly from getting wet on 2/26) and then later they can't get past the swipe code without the PIN number for the account. They contact TM's father on March 5th asking for the PIN and TM's father tells the SPD that they he is going to talk to his lawyer before giving the investigators that information. I've seen no further mention of the phone after that date. It looks to me like SPD took the proper steps to find out if there had been a useful phone/ear witness and they were blocked by Crump.

elementary
05-18-2012, 12:01 AM
Maybe she didn't tell them. The info is flowing too quickly for me to keep up with and still keep my job, so maybe she didn't and if she didn't, there are an infinite number of reasons teenaged girls don't tell their parents things. I know this having been one once myself back in the Mesozoic Age.

Maybe she did tell them. If she and her family are AA, do you realize the unlikelihood that they would voluntarily involve themselves with LE?

Even if they aren't AA, do you realize the reluctance people in general have to involve themselves as witnesses in a potential crime if they aren't forced to?

I don't know where the Kitty Genovese allusion went to but I remember it all too vividly- the troubling case of bystander (non) intervention. She was stabbed to death on an NYC street in full view of others who did not intervene.

Karmady
05-18-2012, 12:02 AM
Well, clearly you haven't walked in their shoes. I wish life were so black and white.

Really? What terrible fate would have befallen her? Would she have been sprayed with a hose or worse? Worst case, she is ignored, but at least she tried. Imo, this girl didn't come forward because she had no reason to believe that Trayvon wasn't involved in just another shooting of the type she's accustomed to hearing or knowing about in Miami Gardens. jmo.

elementary
05-18-2012, 12:07 AM
Really? What terrible fate would have befallen her? Would she have been sprayed with a hose or worse? Worst case, she is ignored, but at least she tried. Imo, this girl didn't come forward because she had no reason to believe that Trayvon wasn't involved in just another shooting of the type she's accustomed to hearing or knowing about in Miami Gardens. jmo.

She is a minor. <modsnip>

IzzyBlanche
05-18-2012, 12:09 AM
Really? What terrible fate would have befallen her? Would she have been sprayed with a hose or worse? Worst case, she is ignored, but at least she tried. Imo, this girl didn't come forward because she had no reason to believe that Trayvon wasn't involved in just another shooting of the type she's accustomed to hearing or knowing about in Miami Gardens. jmo.

BBM She would have been pegged as a liar on the Internet (as we have already seen here on this victim friendly forum), pilloried for not having contacted LE (as we have already seen here on this victim friendly forum), possibly have her social media accounts hacked and altered to make her look bad (as Trayvon did) and who knows what else.

I wouldn't voluntarily subject my mature thick-skinned don't-put-up-with-much to that, much less allow my teenaged daughter--if I had one--to subject herself to it either.

jaded cat
05-18-2012, 12:10 AM
I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.

LMGTFY.com

From Wiki:

Catherine Susan "Kitty" Genovese (July 7, 1935[1] – March 13, 1964) was a New York City woman who was stabbed to death near her home in the Kew Gardens neighborhood of the borough of Queens in New York City, on March 13, 1964.[3]

The events of Genovese's death are subject to dispute. Some accounts suggest that her cries for help were heard and ignored by numerous residents at the apartment. Other accounts, as detailed below, suggest that residents did not hear her pleas or did provide assistance or both. The exact details of what happened are unknown.

Karmady
05-18-2012, 12:11 AM
She is a minor. And you just validated my interpretation.

Your interpretation, as I read it, was they she had some well-founded distrust of the police. MY interpretation is that she had some well-founded knowledge of how things typically go down in her world. And I think she was right. jmo

Karmady
05-18-2012, 12:15 AM
BBM She would have been pegged as a liar on the Internet (as we have already seen here on this victim friendly forum), pilloried for not having contacted LE (as we have already seen here on this victim friendly forum), possibly have her social media accounts hacked and altered to make her look bad (as Trayvon did) and who knows what else.

I wouldn't voluntarily subject my mature thick-skinned don't-put-up-with-much to that, much less allow my teenaged daughter--if I had one--to subject herself to it either.

Well what made her change her mind then?

IzzyBlanche
05-18-2012, 12:16 AM
Your interpretation, as I read it, was they she had some well-founded distrust of the police. MY interpretation is that she had some well-founded knowledge of how things typically go down in her world. And I think she was right. jmo

Exactly! In her world well-founded distrust of the police = well-founded knowledge of how things typically go down = a lackadaisical response to an AA complaint.

So why bother?

IzzyBlanche
05-18-2012, 12:18 AM
Well what made her change her mind then?

The phone records proving she was talking to TM at the crucial time.

ETA: Someone had to have explained to her that she was going to be subpoenaed no matter what.

Kimberlyd125
05-18-2012, 12:19 AM
Well what made her change her mind then?

Crump
JMO

Karmady
05-18-2012, 12:24 AM
Exactly! In her world well-founded distrust of the police = well-founded knowledge of how things typically go down = a lackadaisical response to an AA complaint.

So why bother?

Who cares if she gets a lackadaisical response. Is that so traumatic you wouldn't say what you heard? Nah. And, btw, by identifying this witness as Trayvon's supposed "girlfriend," Crump is the one who put her out there for all the world to go looking for. Not LE and not O'Mara. Crump could have quietly gotten her to come forward and protected her identity. But he didn't. He had to grandstand her to spin his, imo, extremely bogus case. And he did not hesitate. You want to go after someone for exploiting a minor, Crump's your man, imo. And you can add the mother of the 13 yo witness and BG herself to that list, also imo.

jjenny
05-18-2012, 12:24 AM
Maybe she assumed he was punched. Maybe he was grabbed. She obviously knew something was happening.

As for probing, if you check witness reports, some of them too, were probed. People may report but LE may need more details. Sounds reasonable to me.

My point is, she didn't witness who punched, grabbed, or pushed who.
All she knows is that something happened because head set apparently fell off. In my opinion, her story doesn't contradict Zimmerman's. She heard words exchanged, with Trayvon actually asking the first question. Something then happened, but she can not say who pushed, punched, or grabbed who, since she didn't see it.

claudicici
05-18-2012, 12:32 AM
She heard the grass !!!! That's the first time I've heard that and it's extremely significant to me.I believe every word this girl is saying 100%,she sounds so sincere and like others pointed out if she wanted to lie she could really add to the story but she's not...I feel so bad for her,when she quietly admits to the guilt she feels it breaks my heart and I can totally relate.It makes me so upset that some posts suggest somehow due to the environment one is in a shooting death of someone you love might not be as much of a deal as it is,as it always is,no matter where you live

IzzyBlanche
05-18-2012, 12:33 AM
Who cares if she gets a lackadaisical response. Is that so traumatic you wouldn't say what you heard? Nah. And, btw, by identifying this witness as Trayvon's supposed "girlfriend," Crump is the one who put her out there for all the world to go looking for. Not LE and not O'Mara. Crump could have quietly gotten her to come forward and protected her identity. But he didn't. He had to grandstand her to spin his, imo, extremely bogus case. And he did not hesitate. You want to go after someone for exploiting a minor, Crump's your man, imo. And you can add the mother of the 13 yo witness and BG herself to that list, also imo.

BBM.

It's not about the trauma. IMO of course.

It's about the frequent history of crimes against AAs being treated as much less important than crimes against whites. Why should I bother contacting LE about a potential crime if they're just going to blow it off?

Also I don't recall having gone after anyone for exploiting a minor so I don't know where that is coming from in your response.

ETA: BBM Oopsie, I didn't literally mean myself personally; it was the theoretical me putting myself in the GF's shoes.

jjenny
05-18-2012, 12:34 AM
She heard the grass !!!! That's the first time I've heard that and it's extremely significant to me.I believe every word this girl is saying 100%,she sounds so sincere and like others pointed out if she wanted to lie she could really add to the story but she's not...I feel so bad for her,when she quietly admits to the guilt she feels it breaks my heart and I can totally relate.It makes me so upset that some posts suggest somehow due to the environment one is in a shooting death of someone you love might not be as much of a deal as it is,as it always is,no matter where you live

How does one hear the grass? What does the grass do that it can be heard over the phone?

Karmady
05-18-2012, 12:56 AM
BBM.

It's not about the trauma. IMO of course.

It's about the frequent history of crimes against AAs being treated as much less important than crimes against whites. Why should I bother contacting LE about a potential crime if they're just going to blow it off?

Also I don't recall having gone after anyone for exploiting a minor so I don't know where that is coming from in your response.

ETA: BBM Oopsie, I didn't literally mean myself personally; it was the theoretical me putting myself in the GF's shoes.

As far as why bother, I can kind of see it in some cases, but not here. This is not a killing of one known serial felon by another. And these kids are from good homes. And good people do the right thing even when they may expect a so-what response, or worse, especially when another good person's life has been lost, if not in every case.

And my bad on the "you" - I wasn't referring to YOU. It was just a phrase. As in, "you wanna talk about chutzpah...I'LL show you chutzpah." Sorry.

suzihawk
05-18-2012, 01:05 AM
My speculation is that she felt guilty only AFTER she was told the same story Crump sold to the media about how Trayvon had been hunted down like an animal by a "white" racist vigilante. Notice how she said that Trayvon had concluded that George was "white" when he saw George in his car...really? He concluded that a "latino-looking" guy was white even though the guy was in his car, in the dark, at a distance. Not buyin' that at all even assuming that you could conclude, visually, that George is white under ANY circumstances. Even the officers on the scene described him as latino.

I think that the girl initially didn't come forward because she and whomever she told about the phone conversation, if anyone, assumed that the circumstances of his death were in some way related to Trayvon's own conduct. I think Crump convinced her that she was way wrong about that and THAT is why she felt guilty, if she did. jmo

Why is that so hard to believe? Zimmerman concluded that Trayvon was suspicious, was up to no good, looked like he was on drugs or something,, etc. - even though GZ was in his car, in the dark - looking from that very same distance away.

Alecto
05-18-2012, 01:24 AM
The New York Times has a much more complete audio statement then the Orlando Sentinel. I'm not sure how to link directly to it but it is on the left hand side of this page:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us/new-details-are-released-in-shooting-of-teenager.html?_r=3

HiHater
05-18-2012, 03:38 AM
The gf describes GZ's voice as angry, and others described hearing a dominant/aggressive voice...

I think that's one point for corroboration...

HiHater
05-18-2012, 03:43 AM
At around 18 minutes, the discussion turns to text messages, and she says Trayvon NEVER texted her about the run-in with GZ. (my words) She also clarifies that she texted him when the phone hung up.

m00c0w
05-18-2012, 03:43 AM
She says she called him 3 or 2 times, and she texted him. It's not plain as day, obviously, if you didn't hear what I heard and vice versa.

ETA: And I just realized we are on the wrong thread. Sorry, mods!
Perhaps you aren't familiar with her accent/style of speaking? I'm not sure how you're hearing anything other than "He didn't text me" or "He ain't text me". Can you state, specifically, what you do hear? I don't think you've actually given a direct quote.

ETA: If you listen to the unabridged audio, she says she sent him a text after she tried calling him. It's really that simple. :)

HiHater
05-18-2012, 03:51 AM
Perhaps you aren't familiar with her accent/style of speaking? I'm not sure how you're hearing anything other than "He didn't text me" or "He ain't text me". Can you state, specifically, what you do hear? I don't think you've actually given a direct quote.

I'll copy and paste it for you again. When I put the quotations marks, that's a direct quote.


This is false.

She says she called him back "3 or 2 times" the investigators says and you didn't get a response, she cuts the investigator off by saying "No, and text him."

I'll say JMO even though that's very close to what was said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us...ager.html?_r=4 (on left side of page, begins about 12:08)

Please, please if you don't know what she said don't pass it off as fact, because then people run with it...
__________________

claudicici
05-18-2012, 03:53 AM
How does one hear the grass? What does the grass do that it can be heard over the phone?

It's a distinct sound. Haven't you ever let yourself fall down in grass? I have,and I know exactly what it sounds like and what it would sound like over the phone

Elley Mae
05-18-2012, 07:03 AM
The head set was already off. By her own admission, she could only hear a "little bit" whatever that means.

That's a tough one, if you ask six people you would probable get 7 answers to that one.

Elley Mae
05-18-2012, 07:16 AM
Well what made her change her mind then?

I have wondered if Tracy called her from Trayvon's phone.

Elley Mae
05-18-2012, 07:21 AM
I'm still reading the doc dump but on page 16-17 the SPD is trying to unlock the phone. First they had been hampered by the phone not working (possibly from getting wet on 2/26) and then later they can't get past the swipe code without the PIN number for the account. They contact TM's father on March 5th asking for the PIN and TM's father tells the SPD that they he is going to talk to his lawyer before giving the investigators that information. I've seen no further mention of the phone after that date. It looks to me like SPD took the proper steps to find out if there had been a useful phone/ear witness and they were blocked by Crump.

Yup, looks like SPD did try to investigate further.

saguaro
05-18-2012, 07:27 AM
This is why her social media accounts will come into play and hopefully sooner rather than later.

If it's true that she never made reference to any of this and just kept carrying on all night (tweeting) and into the morning without giving it another thought, then there is going to be a problem.

IMO!

who
05-18-2012, 09:20 AM
I'll copy and paste it for you again. When I put the quotations marks, that's a direct quote.


This is false.

She says she called him back "3 or 2 times" the investigators says and you didn't get a response, she cuts the investigator off by saying "No, and text him."

I'll say JMO even though that's very close to what was said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us...ager.html?_r=4 (on left side of page, begins about 12:08)

Please, please if you don't know what she said don't pass it off as fact, because then people run with it...
__________________
Thanks for that info.

Could you fix that link? Not coming up.

iluvmua
05-18-2012, 09:23 AM
This is why her social media accounts will come into play and hopefully sooner rather than later.

If it's true that she never made reference to any of this and just kept carrying on all night (tweeting) and into the morning without giving it another thought, then there is going to be a problem.

IMO!

she didn't (I've read her twitter on another website).

This is why her story is going to be ripped to pieces by the defense because it's a load of bull by Crump.

Lovelymountains
05-18-2012, 09:30 AM
My point is, after the head set was off, whatever she heard likely was very faint.

I am not familiar with head sets for telephones. I just speak into my phone, as well as listen from my phone. So, was Trayvon speaking through his earphones and once they were off, the sound became less distinct? TIA

jjenny
05-18-2012, 09:31 AM
IDK......if I was the defense, I would be hoping her story was true. There are phone records proving she was on the phone with TM and if she heard nothing or TM said nothing...well then it would look like GZ totally ambushed TM.

Well she clearly doesn't say she heard nothing, does she? She also has Trayvon asking the first question. I don't think her story is all that inconsistent with Zimmerman's.

tehcloser
05-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Well she clearly doesn't say she heard nothing, does she? She also has Trayvon asking the first question. I don't think her story is all that inconsistent with Zimmerman's.

Well clearly it's early......and my post made no sense even to me which is why I deleted it, I'll try again when this pot o' coffee kicks in.

saguaro
05-18-2012, 09:36 AM
she didn't (I've read her twitter on another website).

This is why her story is going to be ripped to pieces by the defense because it's a load of bull by Crump.

I believe there has been quite a bit of collusion in regards to this case and it scares the heck out of me.

IMO!

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:04 AM
She did say that, but she also said that was after the headset had already fallen off. So I don't know how she would be able to figure out which one was saying "get off."

That was his headset not her's. She could still hear if he were yelling. jmo

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:08 AM
Bold: I absolutely did. My immediate thought was "Are you kidding me? You felt guilty yet you didn't contact anyone even after learning that your boyrfriend was shot?"

Note: "Anyone" includes Mr. Martin's parents, the local law enforcement, an attorney, ANYONE.

It was reported the parents did call SPD and their call was unreturned. jmo

waltzingmatilda
05-18-2012, 10:13 AM
That's a tough one, if you ask six people you would probable get 7 answers to that one.

LOL! JMO, I think 'a little bit' is a vague part of speech and used in myriad answers to questions, sometimes followed with 'but' as a qualifier.

Did you lie out in the sun too long? A little bit.

Are you feeling sick? A little bit.

Did you see that streaker? A little bit

Are you sorry for pushing your sister/brother? A little bit but she/he bit me.

I admit that I haven't had time to listen to the recording yet and I appreciate everyones insight.

Your response is so true it made me chuckle! (just a little bit, teehee)

MOO

wm

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:14 AM
My speculation is that she felt guilty only AFTER she was told the same story Crump sold to the media about how Trayvon had been hunted down like an animal by a "white" racist vigilante. Notice how she said that Trayvon had concluded that George was "white" when he saw George in his car...really? He concluded that a "latino-looking" guy was white even though the guy was in his car, in the dark, at a distance. Not buyin' that at all even assuming that you could conclude, visually, that George is white under ANY circumstances. Even the officers on the scene described him as latino.

I think that the girl initially didn't come forward because she and whomever she told about the phone conversation, if anyone, assumed that the circumstances of his death were in some way related to Trayvon's own conduct. I think Crump convinced her that she was way wrong about that and THAT is why she felt guilty, if she did. jmo

Maybe it's just because she has heard some of the mean things people are saying about her. There is obviously a good reason her parents tried to protect her. Guilt is a normal stage of grief. The person always feels guilty because they think they could have stopped it from happening even though there is no reason to belief she ever could. It's normal....it happens to all of us when we lose someone close. jmo

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:19 AM
My point is, after the head set was off, whatever she heard likely was very faint.

His headset is for him to hear......not her. The mic would still be there and she could still hear because the headset was found with the body. jmo

jjenny
05-18-2012, 10:27 AM
His headset is for him to hear......not her. The mic would still be there and she could still hear because the headset was found with the body. jmo

She is the one who says she could only hear a "little bit."
Whatever that means.

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:47 AM
She is the one who says she could only hear a "little bit."
Whatever that means.

If the mic were on the headset she could still hear. The mic was still there where she could hear as long as it was attached to the phone. Once the headset detached from the phone IMO the line went dead for her so she hung up and tried to call back. She could still hear just not as clear as if he were talking into the mic directly. jmo

cityslick
05-18-2012, 10:51 AM
Maybe it's just because she has heard some of the mean things people are saying about her. There is obviously a good reason her parents tried to protect her. Guilt is a normal stage of grief. The person always feels guilty because they think they could have stopped it from happening even though there is no reason to belief she ever could. It's normal....it happens to all of us when we lose someone close. jmo

You got to admit, if it shows that she was on social media after the fact and showed no signs of distress for a long period of time, defense is going to be all over that.

claudicici
05-18-2012, 10:59 AM
she didn't (I've read her twitter on another website).

This is why her story is going to be ripped to pieces by the defense because it's a load of bull by Crump.

whatever I post on my facebook is not even close to whatever goes on in my head.It's just what I want people to think I'm thinking about not what I'm actually thinking about. Just saying,whatever she put on her social network sites might just be there because she was trying not to think about what w2as bothering her

LambChop
05-18-2012, 11:09 AM
You got to admit, if it shows that she was on social media after the fact and showed no signs of distress for a long period of time, defense is going to be all over that.

Social media proves nothing. My granddaughter lost her cousin who she was very close to.. She was still texting her friends, still using the social media. Haven't you ever seen someone joking or telling funny stories about the deceased at a funeral. It breaks the tension and is in no way meant to be disrespectful to the dead. Life still goes on, does it not. Getting back to normal is part of the healing process. It's not that you aren't thinking about this person 24/7 but breaking away from the constant grief is normal. Not talking about it is avoidance and is also normal. Please don't tell me they will have to call that "grief lady" in to testify in this trial, too.

She's a child. She is reacting and trying to deal with this the best way she knows how. It may not be in a way an adult might expect her to act but basically it has nothing to do with the crime. When she told her story to her doctor while she was in the hospital it was documented early on and I would think MOM already knows that. jmo

cityslick
05-18-2012, 11:17 AM
Social media proves nothing. My granddaughter lost her cousin who she was very close to.. She was still texting her friends, still using the social media. Haven't you ever seen someone joking or telling funny stories about the deceased at a funeral. It breaks the tension and is in no way meant to be disrespectful to the dead. Life still goes on, does it not. Getting back to normal is part of the healing process. It's not that you aren't thinking about this person 24/7 but breaking away from the constant grief is normal. Not talking about it is avoidance and is also normal. Please don't tell me they will have to call that "grief lady" in to testify in this trial, too.

She's a child. She is reacting and trying to deal with this the best way she knows how. It may not be in a way an adult might expect her to act but basically it has nothing to do with the crime. When she told her story to her doctor while she was in the hospital it was documented early on and I would think MOM already knows that. jmo

IMO, I think her story has enough questions around it that I think she's going to get torn apart in a deposition/on the stand. It doesn't help that she is the only one testifying to things that only she heard. There are no other witnesses that can collaborate the start of the fight.

Karmady
05-18-2012, 11:20 AM
Maybe it's just because she has heard some of the mean things people are saying about her. There is obviously a good reason her parents tried to protect her. Guilt is a normal stage of grief. The person always feels guilty because they think they could have stopped it from happening even though there is no reason to belief she ever could. It's normal....it happens to all of us when we lose someone close. jmo

Huh, afaik, no one was saying anything at all about her until Crump outed her. Even after that, maybe there were some mean things said about her by some people, but making observations about her less than "overwhelmed with grief" demeanor and questioning the credibility of her story under the circumstances is not "mean" by my standards. And I would bet a LOT of money that she cares a whole lot less about it then you do.

Lovelymountains
05-18-2012, 12:30 PM
Listening to this young girl breaks my heart. She heard the beginning of the murder of someone she cared about. This trauma will be with her for a lifetime.

I understand what she said about the sound of falling on the grass. There's sort of a distinctive, "Thud." I think she told the story as best as she understood it and I commend her courage in doing so. It must have been difficult for her.

Insofar as her calling the police, I think experience has taught AA to not rely for help from LE in many cases. In fact, IMO, this case proves the point.

LambChop
05-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Huh, afaik, no one was saying anything at all about her until Crump outed her. Even after that, maybe there were some mean things said about her by some people, but making observations about her less than "overwhelmed with grief" demeanor and questioning the credibility of her story under the circumstances is not "mean" by my standards. And I would bet a LOT of money that she cares a whole lot less about it then you do.

I feel sorry for what she has had to deal with. I feel sorry, too, for people who feel it's necessary to tare a young child down because she has been forced to tell her story. One that is clearly very painful for her to speak about. I think defense will tread softly only because her breaking down during her testimony will only hurt GZ. That is what I believe will happen. And because she is a minor the judge may put restrictions on both SA and defense. jmo

missingm
05-18-2012, 01:10 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70000036/News/Trayvon-s-girlfriend-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

Very sad at the end, the girlfriend's statement answers lots of questions...

It sounds like she was busy chewing gum the whole time. Also, whoever was doing the interview wasn't asking for too many specifics. She says "like" in describing everything... "like 3 or 2 times..."

IMO, the defense lawyer wouldn't necessarily have to go after her hard since she appears to volunteer extra information every chance she gets. That extra info could get her testimony in trouble.

The last statement that TM's "problem" is that he "never fights" could be very troublesome. The defense could ask her about other kids that fight like she thinks TM should. It also seems likely that if what she says is true then there are people including herself who tell him to fight more. A good question for the Def. would be how many times she or his friends egg TM on to fight someone.

I would be scared as a prosecutor if she was my star witness.

LambChop
05-18-2012, 01:44 PM
Funny, it seemed to prove a lot about Zimmerman. Quite a few discussed it here before the thread was closed.

GZ's 2005 MySpace Postings - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170789)

Proves nothing and that could be why it was closed. jmo

LambChop
05-18-2012, 01:47 PM
It sounds like she was busy chewing gum the whole time. Also, whoever was doing the interview wasn't asking for too many specifics. She says "like" in describing everything... "like 3 or 2 times..."

IMO, the defense lawyer wouldn't necessarily have to go after her hard since she appears to volunteer extra information every chance she gets. That extra info could get her testimony in trouble.

The last statement that TM's "problem" is that he "never fights" could be very troublesome. The defense could ask her about other kids that fight like she thinks TM should. It also seems likely that if what she says is true then there are people including herself who tell him to fight more. A good question for the Def. would be how many times she or his friends egg TM on to fight someone.

I would be scared as a prosecutor if she was my star witness.

Unless she had done a written statement that is different than what was recorded, we never heard her whole statement only pieces and some information did not come directly from her but through Crump. And we all know how that sort of thing goes. jmo

missingm
05-18-2012, 03:13 PM
Unless she had done a written statement that is different than what was recorded, we never heard her whole statement only pieces and some information did not come directly from her but through Crump. And we all know how that sort of thing goes. jmo

I was referring to statements that she made in the recording. Was it edited or cut up before release?

I definitely noticed one issue between what Crump said and her testimony. She clearly says he was running, yet Crump had said that she said TM refused to run and that she was trying to get him to run. Am I missing something there?

AJ Noiter
05-18-2012, 05:40 PM
Well, clearly you haven't walked in their shoes. I wish life were so black and white.

You clearly have no clue what I am. I'll give you a hint, I am not "white" so using those words on me has less effect than you think.

saguaro
05-18-2012, 05:47 PM
You clearly have no clue what I am. I'll give you a hint, I am not "white" so using those words on me has less effect than you think.

I agree and don't understand why some have to make things so personal.

Many of us just want to discuss this case without feeling like we're the bad guys because we're not seeing things the way that some might.

IMO!

ILikeToBendPages
05-18-2012, 08:50 PM
I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.


Kitty Genovese was a young woman that was murdered when she came home after work one night. It was said her neighbors heard her screams but thought someone else would call the police and didn't want to get involved.

The man who stabbed her ,ran away after a neighbor called out to leave her alone and then returned and finished stabbing her.

ILikeToBendPages
05-18-2012, 09:09 PM
She is the one who says she could only hear a "little bit."
Whatever that means.

The movie To Kill a Mockingbird comes to mind when Scout and Jem were walking home and Jem was attacked.

suzihawk
05-18-2012, 09:29 PM
It sounds like she was busy chewing gum the whole time. Also, whoever was doing the interview wasn't asking for too many specifics. She says "like" in describing everything... "like 3 or 2 times..."

IMO, the defense lawyer wouldn't necessarily have to go after her hard since she appears to volunteer extra information every chance she gets. That extra info could get her testimony in trouble.

The last statement that TM's "problem" is that he "never fights" could be very troublesome. The defense could ask her about other kids that fight like she thinks TM should. It also seems likely that if what she says is true then there are people including herself who tell him to fight more. A good question for the Def. would be how many times she or his friends egg TM on to fight someone.

I would be scared as a prosecutor if she was my star witness.

I had chronic dry mouth for months after my daughter was killed. It's a common result of shock and grief. Gum was not only helpful, it was necessary.

http://www.caringinfo.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3370

You may notice physical changes such as trembling, nausea, trouble breathing, muscle weakness, dry mouth, or trouble sleeping and eating.

Guilt is a common response which may be easier to accept and overcome by looking at the experience in terms of “regret.”

-------

What barely 16 year old girl doesn't use the word "like" in nearly every sentence?

I find her to be credible.

JMO

suzihawk
05-18-2012, 09:39 PM
I agree and don't understand why some have to make things so personal.

Many of us just want to discuss this case without feeling like we're the bad guys because we're not seeing things the way that some might.

IMO!

That's a two way street, ya know. :)


(OT - Where have the smilies disappeared to?)

LambChop
05-18-2012, 09:54 PM
I had chronic dry mouth for months after my daughter was killed. It's a common result of shock and grief. Gum was not only helpful, it was necessary.

http://www.caringinfo.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3370

You may notice physical changes such as trembling, nausea, trouble breathing, muscle weakness, dry mouth, or trouble sleeping and eating.

Guilt is a common response which may be easier to accept and overcome by looking at the experience in terms of “regret.”

-------

What barely 16 year old girl doesn't use the word "like" in nearly every sentence?

I find her to be credible.

JMO

LOL. You mean in like:

"Do you like really, I mean like, really like it?" 13 year-olds do it, too. lol

vlpate
05-18-2012, 10:11 PM
Listening to this young girl breaks my heart. She heard the beginning of the murder of someone she cared about. This trauma will be with her for a lifetime.

I understand what she said about the sound of falling on the grass. There's sort of a distinctive, "Thud." I think she told the story as best as she understood it and I commend her courage in doing so. It must have been difficult for her.

Insofar as her calling the police, I think experience has taught AA to not rely for help from LE in many cases. In fact, IMO, this case proves the point.

I think the "grass" was contrived, and not by her. That was a very odd thing to say, especially since she heard GZ hit the grass, because he, by all accounts, was the one that went down and started screaming, alone at first. That, and the fact that it eliminates hearing anyone hitting "cement". IIRC, TM's phone was disconnected from the headphones and in his pocket so I don't know how she heard much of anything.

She said she called him back, I'm assuming right away. No record of this call at all, and there should be.

JMO

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:16 PM
I think the "grass" was contrived, and not by her. That was a very odd thing to say, especially since she heard GZ hit the grass, because he, by all accounts, was the one that went down and started screaming, alone at first. That, and the fact that it eliminates hearing anyone hitting "cement". IIRC, TM's phone was disconnected from the headphones and in his pocket so I don't know how she heard much of anything.

She said she called him back, I'm assuming right away. No record of this call at all, and there should be.

JMO

His phone was not in his pocket. It was on the grass. It's in the evidence photos. I thought it was stated that when his phone was off it went directly into voicemail and the call is not normally listed. jmo

Karmady
05-18-2012, 10:21 PM
I had chronic dry mouth for months after my daughter was killed. It's a common result of shock and grief. Gum was not only helpful, it was necessary.

http://www.caringinfo.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3370

You may notice physical changes such as trembling, nausea, trouble breathing, muscle weakness, dry mouth, or trouble sleeping and eating.

Guilt is a common response which may be easier to accept and overcome by looking at the experience in terms of “regret.”

-------

What barely 16 year old girl doesn't use the word "like" in nearly every sentence?

I find her to be credible.

JMO


I'm guessing she had the gum habit way before Trayvon was killed and that her level of grief has been grossly overstated (and even that's an understatement, imo).

suzihawk
05-18-2012, 10:32 PM
I'm guessing she had the gum habit way before Trayvon was killed and that her level of grief has been grossly overstated (and even that's an understatement, imo).

Do you have anything to back up either of those comments?

LambChop
05-18-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm guessing she had the gum habit way before Trayvon was killed and that her level of grief has been grossly overstated (and even that's an understatement, imo).

One of the problems with adults is that they often fail to understand just how deep and how damaging a level of grief can go in a young child. This young girl admits she suffers from guilt and my guess part of that is now reflected by anger. And all kids chew gum. Just like most girls are prone to use the words "in like....." a lot. Since none of us are experts in grief we don't know what her level of grief is and how she is expressing it, only that she clearly is hurting. I hope her family is getting her counseling. jmo

Karmady
05-18-2012, 10:40 PM
One of the problems with adults is that they often fail to understand just how deep and how damaging a level of grief can go in a young child. This young girl admits she suffers from guilt and my guess part of that is now reflected by anger. And all kids chew gum. Just like most girls are prone to use the words "in like....." a lot. Since none of us are experts in grief we don't know what her level of grief is and how she is expressing it, only that she clearly is hurting. I hope her family is getting her counseling. jmo

I don't think it's clear at all that she is hurting. Quite the contrary. I think she didn't give the whole situation more than a moments thought other than to gossip momentarily about it with her friends until Crump got to her. jmo

saguaro
05-18-2012, 10:54 PM
I don't think it's clear at all that she is hurting. Quite the contrary. I think she didn't give the whole situation more than a moments thought other than to gossip momentarily about it with her friends until Crump got to her. jmo

If I recall correctly, I don't think she even did that.

vlpate
05-18-2012, 10:57 PM
Well she clearly doesn't say she heard nothing, does she? She also has Trayvon asking the first question. I don't think her story is all that inconsistent with Zimmerman's.

IMO, the reason the story matches up is because they received the 911 tapes on Friday night, the 16th, and miraculously found her number on Sunday, the 18th. By Tuesday, the 20th, the story was perfected and in synch.

The biggest and most glaring problem with her story (devised by Crump & Co., IMO), is that Trayvon had been inside the gated community, walking around and looking about, for at least a few moments before Zimmerman dialed the NE number at 7:09. By the time g/f calls him, 7:12, he's been on the property, checking out Zimmerman, walking around, and looking about, for Three minutes.

So while he's telling g/f about the strange man, running, walking around, looking about, walking fast, etc., four more minutes pass before the "confrontation" at 7:16.

Seven minutes to go a football field, really?

JMO

SuziQ
05-18-2012, 11:02 PM
You know, if this child had posted all over her facebook about this case, many would be pointing an accusing finger at her over that as well. IMO, her parents probably put the brakes on her talking to anyone but someone in authority about this case.

Of course the defense is going to rip her apart. That's what they do, especially if she's all they have to work with. And it will have nothing to do with facebook

claudicici
05-18-2012, 11:03 PM
I think the "grass" was contrived, and not by her. That was a very odd thing to say, especially since she heard GZ hit the grass, because he, by all accounts, was the one that went down and started screaming, alone at first. That, and the fact that it eliminates hearing anyone hitting "cement". IIRC, TM's phone was disconnected from the headphones and in his pocket so I don't know how she heard much of anything.

She said she called him back, I'm assuming right away. No record of this call at all, and there should be.

JMO

we have no idea who hit the grass first.GZ could have pushed Trayvon first so the a**hole would not get away and Trayvon got up and gave GZ his well deserved little nonlife threatening beat down because Trayvon WAS scared for his life being confronted and watched and followed and stalked by some dude he had NO idea who he was and what he was up to

vlpate
05-18-2012, 11:06 PM
His phone was not in his pocket. It was on the grass. It's in the evidence photos. I thought it was stated that when his phone was off it went directly into voicemail and the call is not normally listed. jmo

IIRC, and I only read through the documents once, it was GZ's phone that was found in the grass. I thought TM's money, skittles, and phone were found in his pockets.

So his phone was on the ground, but the mic was disconnected. Maybe she heard the phone hit the grass?

jjenny
05-18-2012, 11:08 PM
You know, if this child had posted all over her facebook about this case, many would be pointing an accusing finger at her over that as well. IMO, her parents probably put the brakes on her talking to anyone but someone in authority about this case.

Of course the defense is going to rip her apart and it will have nothing to do with facebook. That's what they do, especially if that's all they have to work with.

Well at least we could have seen what she posted before talking to family's lawyer. I mean, there is an issue of her not coming forward for some time until contacted by the lawyer. Her parents might have put breaks on her-but when/if did she tell them what happened? If she tried to call Trayvon later that night (which she says she did)-do phone records support that?

Karmady
05-18-2012, 11:10 PM
You know, if this child had posted all over her facebook about this case, many would be pointing an accusing finger at her over that as well. IMO, her parents probably put the brakes on her talking to anyone but someone in authority about this case.

Of course the defense is going to rip her apart and it will have nothing to do with facebook. That's what they do, especially if that's all they have to work with.

Imo, the defense has quite a lot to work with, and girlfriend's story is just the beginning. That's what happens when you set someone up and people get interested.

I honestly didn't expect the medical records or the photos to verify George's injuries to the extent that they did. I am more thoroughly convinced then ever that this was exactly what I thought -- a pc, race-baiting railroading. The fact that George had to be, and was, turned white before he could be villified is just sickening. I'm contributing to his defense fund.

claudicici
05-18-2012, 11:10 PM
I don't think it's clear at all that she is hurting. Quite the contrary. I think she didn't give the whole situation more than a moments thought other than to gossip momentarily about it with her friends until Crump got to her. jmo

the girl was hospitalized.Do you remember what it's like to be in freaking love when you're a teenager? And that person gets KILLED pretty much while you're talking to him? Can you imagine what that feels like? How dare posts insinuate the girl is not hurting.

Karmady
05-18-2012, 11:16 PM
the girl was hospitalized.Do you remember what it's like to be in freaking love when you're a teenager? And that person gets KILLED pretty much while you're talking to him? Can you imagine what that feels like? How dare posts insinuate the girl is not hurting.

I think you will learn that she wasn't his girlfriend. I have no explanation for the supposed hospitalization, but I think you will be disappointed about that, as well. I DARE, because I don't believe for a split second that she was hurting or grieving in any significant way. Her actions in the immediate aftermath will bear this out. jmo

vlpate
05-18-2012, 11:18 PM
we have no idea who hit the grass first.GZ could have pushed Trayvon first so the a**hole would not get away and Trayvon got up and gave GZ his well deserved little nonlife threatening beat down because Trayvon WAS scared for his life being confronted and watched and followed and stalked by some dude he had NO idea who he was and what he was up to

But I do have an idea, in fact, I know, from witness statements, who hit the ground and started yelling for help, George. IMO, it's grasping at straws and a practice in futility to continue to carry on the charade. But that's JMO.

SuziQ
05-18-2012, 11:23 PM
Well all I can say about GZ's injuries is that shows me, IMO, that Trayvon was besting his stalker and attacker. Tragically, Trayvon was outgunned.

vlpate
05-18-2012, 11:31 PM
Well,IMO that's the problem ,some posts in this thread seem to have no feelings and I just wonder what makes posters in a victim friendly forum post with no empathy whatsoever towards the victim and the victims family.
What makes this case different that some people are indifferent to this hardcore loss of a human life???? A 17 year old,still a child? Yet you talk about "no feeling"What makes some posters have "no feeling" towards Trayvon,his girlfriend,his parents? What is it? I would really like to know.

IMO, there are plenty of people who have feelings, whether real or bleeding heart, for TM - but very few have had feelings for GZ and his family and the utter mob attack that was put upon them. GZ is not a monster and some are not going to go along with him being portrayed as one anymore. I've seen nothing that tells me TM was the victim in this. He had seven full minutes to make it to his house, he chose not to. GZ getting out of his truck was not an excuse to beat him down.

As far as having no feeling for TM, the g/f, or the family, what does that have to do with anything? I could like them all day long and it wouldn't change the facts of the case.

JMO

vlpate
05-18-2012, 11:35 PM
Do you have anything to back up either of those comments?

How does one back up "guessing"? Just curious :) TIA

beach
05-19-2012, 12:12 AM
I have a sincere question here -

Other than Crump and the media referencing her as Trayvon's girlfriend, what other evidence do we have that she was actually a girlfriend? Does she say that in the interview? (I've only had a chance to listen to a short snip at work. Slow connection at home; hard for me to load audio/video files here.)


I ask that because per the things I have read elsewhere, one of the things that kept glaring at me was that I didn't get the impression that she was all that attached to any one guy. Which is perfectly fine, don't get me wrong. I was just left thinking that either: 1) Trayvon may have considered them an exclusive item, but maybe she felt otherwise; or 2) that they were really good friends and the media blew this relationship way out of proportion.

Badlands
05-19-2012, 12:15 AM
I have a sincere question here -

Other than Crump and the media referencing her as Trayvon's girlfriend, what other evidence do we have that she was actually a girlfriend? Does she say that in the interview? (I've only had a chance to listen to a short snip at work. Slow connection at home; hard for me to load audio/video files here.)


I ask that because per the things I have read elsewhere, one of the things that kept glaring at me was that I didn't get the impression that she was all that attached to any one guy. Which is perfectly fine, don't get me wrong. I was just left thinking that either: 1) Trayvon may have considered them an exclusive item, but maybe she felt otherwise; or 2) that they were really good friends and the media blew this relationship way out of proportion.

The officer asked her if she was Trayvon's girlfriend, and I believe she said, "We were getting there." Earlier in the interview, she mentioned that they had known each other since kindergarten.

saguaro
05-19-2012, 12:22 AM
Well,IMO that's the problem ,some posts in this thread seem to have no feelings and I just wonder what makes posters in a victim friendly forum post with no empathy whatsoever towards the victim and the victims family.
What makes this case different that some people are indifferent to this hardcore loss of a human life???? A 17 year old,still a child? Yet you talk about "no feeling"What makes some posters have "no feeling" towards Trayvon,his girlfriend,his parents? What is it? I would really like to know.

Personal, as in snide comments towards one another is what I meant.

katydid23
05-19-2012, 12:22 AM
the girl was hospitalized.Do you remember what it's like to be in freaking love when you're a teenager? And that person gets KILLED pretty much while you're talking to him? Can you imagine what that feels like? How dare posts insinuate the girl is not hurting.

I would like to see some evidence to support the story that she was actually hospitalized. From what I gather, that might not be correct.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 12:23 AM
Imo, the defense has quite a lot to work with, and girlfriend's story is just the beginning. That's what happens when you set someone up and people get interested.

I honestly didn't expect the medical records or the photos to verify George's injuries to the extent that they did. I am more thoroughly convinced then ever that this was exactly what I thought -- a pc, race-baiting railroading. The fact that George had to be, and was, turned white before he could be villified is just sickening. I'm contributing to his defense fund.

I know I am waaay behind--but IIRC the lead detective recommended manslaughter charges before the case drew international attention.

If I am wrong about this then never mind, but if I am not--do you think that recommendation was pc racebaiting railroading as well?

claudicici
05-19-2012, 12:26 AM
I think you will learn that she wasn't his girlfriend. I have no explanation for the supposed hospitalization, but I think you will be disappointed about that, as well. I DARE, because I don't believe for a split second that she was hurting or grieving in any significant way. Her actions in the immediate aftermath will bear this out. jmo

I've read her tweets.There is nothing there.She guards her emotions in all of her tweets.She was his girlfriend.Or best friend.Tweets are not actions,they are make believes,what you want others to see about you.

Karmady
05-19-2012, 12:26 AM
The officer asked her if she was Trayvon's girlfriend, and I believe she said, "We were getting there." Earlier in the interview, she mentioned that they had known each other since kindergarten.

Is this in the document/interiview production? Can you narrow it down a bit or give a link and page number. Is it in the main audio or the NYT, etc. TIA

katydid23
05-19-2012, 12:27 AM
I know I am waaay behind--but IIRC the lead detective recommended manslaughter charges before the case drew international attention.

If I am wrong about this then never mind, but if I am not--do you think that recommendation was pc racebaiting railroading as well?

There is a big difference between manslaughter and second degree murder. imo

katydid23
05-19-2012, 12:29 AM
I've read her tweets.There is nothing there.She guards her emotions in all of her tweets.She was his girlfriend.Or best friend.Tweets are not actions,they are make believes,what you want others to see about you.

What about the ones when she was supposedly in the hospital?

Karmady
05-19-2012, 12:31 AM
I've read her tweets.There is nothing there.She guards her emotions in all of her tweets.She was his girlfriend.Or best friend.Tweets are not actions,they are make believes,what you want others to see about you.

I think you're projecting. I don't tweet, but my fb is exactly who I am at the moment. I don't try to mislead others about what I think or so that they see me as other than I am. I don't think she did, either. I, personally, am certain that this girl was not at all emotionally distraught about Trayvon's passing. jmo

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 12:31 AM
snipped for focus

What barely 16 year old girl doesn't use the word "like" in nearly every sentence?

JMO

This whole debate really cracks me up because my work supervisor is about 25 or 26, and I swear he cannot utter one sentence without "like" in it.

This is a young man who graduated from a a prestigious university cough cough USC cough cough and yet nonetheless litters his speech with this word.

To criticize a much less educated teenage girl for doing so is the height of absurdity. It's a tic of American English speakers of all ages. I even catch myself, and my 60-something-year old mom, doing it, although not to the extent that younger generations do.

katydid23
05-19-2012, 12:34 AM
I am a little nervous discussing this subject because I got a two day vacation from WS for discussing the girlfriends social network sites. :eek::eek::eek:

Alecto
05-19-2012, 12:35 AM
It was reported the parents did call SPD and their call was unreturned. jmo
I haven't seen this reported anywhere, can someone give me a source for the claim?

claudicici
05-19-2012, 12:39 AM
thanks for letting us know ! I better not discuss it either then,all I'm gonna say is I would never,ever put on facebook how I really feel inside only how I feel about other stuff.These people really know me so for me I have no problem open up to people here because I don't know you in real life,but on facebook i would never do that.

katydid23
05-19-2012, 12:41 AM
thanks for letting us know ! I better not discuss it either then,all I'm gonna say is I would never,ever put on facebook how I really feel inside only how I feel about other stuff.These people really know me so for me I have no problem open up to people here because I don't know you in real life,but on facebook i would never do that.

But IF you were taken to the hospital because of profound grief, would you be posting fun things on your FB?

vlpate
05-19-2012, 12:41 AM
I haven't seen this reported anywhere, can someone give me a source for the claim?

Ben Crump press conference, I'll see if I can find it for you.

suzihawk
05-19-2012, 12:42 AM
I would like to see some evidence to support the story that she was actually hospitalized. From what I gather, that might not be correct.

Where did you gather that from?

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 12:42 AM
There is a big difference between manslaughter and second degree murder. imo

OH, I didn't mean to imply there isn't--but clearly someone in LE felt that GZ should be charged for at least something.

So for clarity I guess my question should have been, was the recommendation for at least the minimum charge of manslaughter a PC driven railroading?

claudicici
05-19-2012, 12:46 AM
But IF you were taken to the hospital because of profound grief, would you be posting fun things on your FB?

it depends.In D's case I really don't know the date when she was in the hospital?

Alecto
05-19-2012, 12:48 AM
Is this in the document/interiview production? Can you narrow it down a bit or give a link and page number. Is it in the main audio or the NYT, etc. TIA
It's in the full audio statement at the the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us/new-details-are-released-in-shooting-of-teenager.html

(I haven't see a written transcript of the statement anywhere yet.)

Badlands
05-19-2012, 12:48 AM
Is this in the document/interiview production? Can you narrow it down a bit or give a link and page number. Is it in the main audio or the NYT, etc. TIA

It was in the audio on the NY Times site: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/trayvon-martins-friend-tells-what-she-heard-on-phone.html?_r=1

beach
05-19-2012, 12:49 AM
Well,IMO that's the problem ,some posts in this thread seem to have no feelings and I just wonder what makes posters in a victim friendly forum post with no empathy whatsoever towards the victim and the victims family.
What makes this case different that some people are indifferent to this hardcore loss of a human life???? A 17 year old,still a child? Yet you talk about "no feeling"What makes some posters have "no feeling" towards Trayvon,his girlfriend,his parents? What is it? I would really like to know.


I have real feelings about the tragic loss of Trayvon's life. My heart breaks for Sybrina, in particular. She is a gentle soul. I have enormous admiration and respect for her. I also was a single parent and raised 3 teens. I identify with her to a great degree and my heart hurts that she lost her son. :(


What makes this case different that some people are indifferent to this hardcore loss of a human life????

This simply isn't fair - no need to paint with such a broad brush here.

This case is different because it is a self-defense case. Very few websleuthers are accustomed to following a self-defense case. I am disturbed by the number of people who just seem willing to totally disregard the US Constitution - seemingly without a second thought just throw the presumption of innocence out the window. This has been happening since the very beginning of this case. It is downright frightening to see this happening. And I don't just mean here at WS. Another poster used the phrase today "emotional hysteria". At some point, we ALL have a responsibility to control the emotions and stop the "right fighting".

I hate the labeling - pro-TM or pro-GZ. I can be both and it is not a conflict. I simply want to know the FACTS. All the noise makes it hard. I want to keep an open mind and understand the truth. I don't really care where that leads me. Just because I am not screaming from the rooftops for GZ's head, doesn't mean the evidence won't lead me there eventually. I just haven't seen it yet. And it isn't cool to assume that those same people are racists or victim-bashers. I'm a paralegal, so I am sure my perspective is a bit different in that sense. I'm nearly always considered pro-prosecution in most every case I follow here, however this is a self-defense case and I know that the SYG law is going to be THE issue here.


okay, off my soapbox now.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 12:50 AM
Where did you gather that from?

A non MSM source not allowed to be linked here.

suzihawk
05-19-2012, 12:55 AM
I have a sincere question here -

Other than Crump and the media referencing her as Trayvon's girlfriend, what other evidence do we have that she was actually a girlfriend? Does she say that in the interview? (I've only had a chance to listen to a short snip at work. Slow connection at home; hard for me to load audio/video files here.)


I ask that because per the things I have read elsewhere, one of the things that kept glaring at me was that I didn't get the impression that she was all that attached to any one guy. Which is perfectly fine, don't get me wrong. I was just left thinking that either: 1) Trayvon may have considered them an exclusive item, but maybe she felt otherwise; or 2) that they were really good friends and the media blew this relationship way out of proportion.

I don't know whether she's technically his girlfriend or not. Clearly she's a very close and dear friend. I'm honestly wondering if it makes a difference between the two. I mean, would it affect her level of pain and trauma of going through this horrendous ordeal - or the amount of grief and loss she's suffering either way?

I'm curious what you've read elsewhere that would give you the impressions you indicate above?

vlpate
05-19-2012, 12:58 AM
I haven't seen this reported anywhere, can someone give me a source for the claim?

I know that was said, and I know I thought it was bull, why wouldn't you call Crump or the family if they didn't call back?

Here's more of what Crump said on the subject:


There's this from ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T7ck5Nym-uI):

""We're going to turn this over to the Justice Department because the family does not trust the Sanford Police Department to have anything to do with the investigation," said Crump."

beach
05-19-2012, 12:59 AM
I am a little nervous discussing this subject because I got a two day vacation from WS for discussing the girlfriends social network sites. :eek::eek::eek:

oh crap...I'm sorry. I referenced it myself indirectly. I didn't know you got TO'd for it though. I'm behind on stuff but I knew better. It was probably some freudian slip so I could get TO'd myself and catch a break from mod'g in here. LOL


Please follow the rules and ignore me. :D

beach
05-19-2012, 01:01 AM
I don't know whether she's technically his girlfriend or not. Clearly she's a very close and dear friend. I'm honestly wondering if it makes a difference between the two. I mean, would it affect her level of pain and trauma of going through this horrendous ordeal - or the amount of grief and loss she's suffering either way?

I'm curious what you've read elsewhere that would give you the impressions you indicate above?

Oh, it really doesn't make a difference as far as her grief of anything of that nature at all!

I was only curious from the standpoint of how the media and talking heads were portraying her. If they had it right or it was more ...ahem...misinformation. That was my only point.

vlpate
05-19-2012, 01:08 AM
I don't know whether she's technically his girlfriend or not. Clearly she's a very close and dear friend. I'm honestly wondering if it makes a difference between the two. I mean, would it affect her level of pain and trauma of going through this horrendous ordeal - or the amount of grief and loss she's suffering either way?

I'm curious what you've read elsewhere that would give you the impressions you indicate above?

I agree with whomever said she was probably guilted into the story as a means to a righteous end. JMO

jjenny
05-19-2012, 01:10 AM
Looking at abc article, it suggests the line went dead after head set fell off, so "get off" part of the interview appears to be a new development.

suzihawk
05-19-2012, 01:14 AM
A non MSM source not allowed to be linked here.

Ahhh... that one. Of course.

vlpate
05-19-2012, 01:32 AM
A non MSM source not allowed to be linked here.

And we know how reliable the MSM sources have been. So reliable three NBC employees were fired for editing GZ's 911 call to portray him as a racist. MSM won't touch the g/f's story, it will make them look too unsympathetic. JMO

vlpate
05-19-2012, 01:32 AM
Looking at abc article, it suggests the line went dead after head set fell off, so "get off" part of the interview appears to be a new development.

That and the "grass".

vlpate
05-19-2012, 01:36 AM
Another, slightly different version:

""What are you stopping me for?" Martin asked a man later identified as neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, according to the girl.
"What are you doing around here?" Zimmerman asked in response.
The girl said she then got the impression that an altercation was taking place and that someone had pushed Martin, because the headset fell out of his ear, and the phone shut off."

LINK CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html)

Sherbie
05-19-2012, 01:42 AM
I haven't seen this reported anywhere, can someone give me a source for the claim?

When the claim was first made that she'd tried to call police and her call hadn't been returned, I remember reading that a spokesperson for either the city or PD said they had no record of her having called, but that perhaps she'd called a different agency. I do not have a link (sorry), but hopefully others can confirm whether this is correct. I believe it is.

jjenny
05-19-2012, 01:49 AM
That and the "grass".

How can someone hear the "grass" over the phone to begin with? Head set falls off, how can one hear what surface it falls onto? Or was she talking about Trayvon walking on the grass? I am not entirely sure what is meant by hearing the grass.

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 02:06 AM
I had several thoughts and several questions where she is concerned.

1) Where does she live? I am under the impression (based on posts I read here) that the school TM was attending (the one from which he had been suspended at the time of his death) was a somewhat new school for him - that he had trouble at his previous school and had, subsequently, transferred to another one. I was also under the impression that 'home' for him was Miami, and that while suspended he was staying with his dad's fiance'.

So... what I'm trying to piece together is, if this girl and TM have known each other since kindergarten, whether they were, at the time of his death, living in the same town and going to the same school. Was she a *local* close female friend? Or was she 'back home' in Miami (or wherever) while he had been sent off to stay with dad's gf in Sanford?

2) Given TM's recent problems at school and the suspension he was serving, is it possible that the girl's parents had said they didn't want her hanging out with him or talking to him? Do we know *when* she told them she had been talking to him right before he died? If she wasn't supposed to be talking with him, to tell what she had heard would be telling that she was not obeying them. She'd have been between a rock and a hard place. Obviously, I have no clue if her parents had told her not to talk to TM, but it's a possibility that would explain her silence.

3) My awareness of *most* (not all, but most) teenage girls is that they tend to get 'drama points' if they are close to a tragedy or if they are more 'in the know' about something dramatic than their peers. I don't think that *most* young people have a real grasp on death unless it hits their own family. It feels *dramatic* when a teen peer dies, but my experience is that teens don't process it as deeply and fully as mature adults do.

Did this girl attend the funeral? And at any point in time, did she offer up in conversation the fact that she might have been the last person to talk to him?

4) I have a hard time believing every word she said. I don't want for a moment to say that she is purposely twisting the truth. Not at all. My assumption is simply that as someone who cared about TM, she likely wants to protect him and his memory from 'bad light', and she likely will remember things in a way that is favorable to TM. She had an allegiance to him. Whether she was a close friend or a girlfriend, I would think that she would interpret anything she heard in a way that seemed favorable to TM, and if she had any doubts, I have a feeling she would still want to be supportive of him and not say anything that would tarnish his memory. She's young, immature (that's not meant to be an insult - just a reality. She's not old enough to have 'matured' in the same way a 40 year old has) and probably has negative feelings about the person who killed her friend.

vlpate
05-19-2012, 02:11 AM
I would like to see some evidence to support the story that she was actually hospitalized. From what I gather, that might not be correct.

I would as well. I didn't see her phone records in the document dump, did I miss them?

vlpate
05-19-2012, 02:15 AM
I had several thoughts and several questions where she is concerned.

1) Where does she live? I am under the impression (based on posts I read here) that the school TM was attending (the one from which he had been suspended at the time of his death) was a somewhat new school for him - that he had trouble at his previous school and had, subsequently, transferred to another one. I was also under the impression that 'home' for him was Miami, and that while suspended he was staying with his dad's fiance'.

So... what I'm trying to piece together is, if this girl and TM have known each other since kindergarten, whether they were, at the time of his death, living in the same town and going to the same school. Was she a *local* close female friend? Or was she 'back home' in Miami (or wherever) while he had been sent off to stay with dad's gf in Sanford?

2) Given TM's recent problems at school and the suspension he was serving, is it possible that the girl's parents had said they didn't want her hanging out with him or talking to him? Do we know *when* she told them she had been talking to him right before he died? If she wasn't supposed to be talking with him, to tell what she had heard would be telling that she was not obeying them. She'd have been between a rock and a hard place. Obviously, I have no clue if her parents had told her not to talk to TM, but it's a possibility that would explain her silence.

3) My awareness of *most* (not all, but most) teenage girls is that they tend to get 'drama points' if they are close to a tragedy or if they are more 'in the know' about something dramatic than their peers. I don't think that *most* young people have a real grasp on death unless it hits their own family. It feels *dramatic* when a teen peer dies, but my experience is that teens don't process it as deeply and fully as mature adults do.

Did this girl attend the funeral? And at any point in time, did she offer up in conversation the fact that she might have been the last person to talk to him?

4) I have a hard time believing every word she said. I don't want for a moment to say that she is purposely twisting the truth. Not at all. My assumption is simply that as someone who cared about TM, she likely wants to protect him and his memory from 'bad light', and she likely will remember things in a way that is favorable to TM. She had an allegiance to him. Whether she was a close friend or a girlfriend, I would think that she would interpret anything she heard in a way that seemed favorable to TM, and if she had any doubts, I have a feeling she would still want to be supportive of him and not say anything that would tarnish his memory. She's young, immature (that's not meant to be an insult - just a reality. She's not old enough to have 'matured' in the same way a 40 year old has) and probably has negative feelings about the person who killed her friend.

They knew each other since kindergarten? Is this in her audio interview? I may have missed it.

If true, then their parents likely knew each other as well.

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 02:18 AM
They knew each other since kindergarten? Is this in her audio interview? I may have missed it.

If true, then their parents likely knew each other as well.

Someone suggested that in this thread...

vlpate
05-19-2012, 02:22 AM
How can someone hear the "grass" over the phone to begin with? Head set falls off, how can one hear what surface it falls onto? Or was she talking about Trayvon walking on the grass? I am not entirely sure what is meant by hearing the grass.

IMO, not hitting cement. They needed to have fallen in the grass. JMO

howitis
05-19-2012, 02:46 AM
wasn't the headphones found in his pocket or is this a rumor?

Just K
05-19-2012, 02:55 AM
His phone was not in his pocket. It was on the grass. It's in the evidence photos. I thought it was stated that when his phone was off it went directly into voicemail and the call is not normally listed. jmo

All of the above is totally accurate re: T-mobile

With TM's phone laying in the grass and the wind blowing, I am certain that the loudest part of the audio was the noises closest to the phone's mic...the sound of the grass blowing around the phone.

In the background, she could hear "a little bit" of what was going on with Trayvon. She said she could hear "get off, get off" before the phone went dead. Probably because by then it was pretty wet. By where the phone landed and where Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found, it is obvious that this was a physical altercation that moved from the sidewalk down toward the grassy area behind MC's patio.

Something occurs to me, did the police take GZ's phone. How did he not lose his phone in this so-called life threatening fight? "John's" story changed a lot after the police arrived on the scene from his original 2 minute, time of the actual event, 911 call. He gave almost no details of this "scuffle" in the 911 call but after being allowed to remain inside the crime scene and after speaking with LE he seems to have added a lot of details.

howitis
05-19-2012, 03:10 AM
oops got a GZ TM mixup

all said........ i'm thinking GZ might have made a Boo Boo during the interview and it could look a bit ugly for him

i have a funny feeling this all they have against him.

Just K
05-19-2012, 03:24 AM
I think you will learn that she wasn't his girlfriend. I have no explanation for the supposed hospitalization, but I think you will be disappointed about that, as well. I DARE, because I don't believe for a split second that she was hurting or grieving in any significant way. Her actions in the immediate aftermath will bear this out. jmo

Two psychological conditions come to mind as it pertains to trauma.

The first is a dissociative episode when an event is so disturbing that in an effort to protect us our brain actually blocks out the memory or parts of the memory of the event...this has also been referred to as hysterical amnesia. Sometimes the memory can be locked away for decades and come out like a slide show...or just snap shots or bits and pieces.

Victims of sexual abuse and even severe physical and/or emotional abuse have been known to experience this type of reaction to the traumatic events. For those who are victims of abuse it is often the only way they can cope and they often go about their day to day business as if nothing is wrong or nothing has changed.

The 2nd condition that comes to mind is PTSD. just ask any combat vet who has suffered from or through it. Just ask the significant others about their partners who came back from Iraq or Afghanistan acting fine and dandy only to commit suicide within months or years of the tragedies they suffered through in combat.

This girl is coping as best she can. If she suffers with either of the two conditions listed above, her behavior is quite typical for someone who experienced, almost first-hand, the homicide of someone she had known since Kindergarten.

Also, she appears to be trying as kids do to present a bravado of sorts...you know trying not to appear weak...as they used to say in the old days, keeping a stiff upper lip or chin up, girl.

It would be completely understandable if she feared coming forward....even at 16 years old, she probably knows that the world and some people can be cruel.

SwampMama
05-19-2012, 03:58 AM
I have real feelings about the tragic loss of Trayvon's life. My heart breaks for Sybrina, in particular. She is a gentle soul. I have enormous admiration and respect for her. I also was a single parent and raised 3 teens. I identify with her to a great degree and my heart hurts that she lost her son. :(

This simply isn't fair - no need to paint with such a broad brush here.

This case is different because it is a self-defense case. Very few websleuthers are accustomed to following a self-defense case. I am disturbed by the number of people who just seem willing to totally disregard the US Constitution - seemingly without a second thought just throw the presumption of innocence out the window. This has been happening since the very beginning of this case. It is downright frightening to see this happening. And I don't just mean here at WS. Another poster used the phrase today "emotional hysteria". At some point, we ALL have a responsibility to control the emotions and stop the "right fighting".

I hate the labeling - pro-TM or pro-GZ. I can be both and it is not a conflict. I simply want to know the FACTS. All the noise makes it hard. I want to keep an open mind and understand the truth. I don't really care where that leads me. Just because I am not screaming from the rooftops for GZ's head, doesn't mean the evidence won't lead me there eventually. I just haven't seen it yet. And it isn't cool to assume that those same people are racists or victim-bashers. I'm a paralegal, so I am sure my perspective is a bit different in that sense. I'm nearly always considered pro-prosecution in most every case I follow here, however this is a self-defense case and I know that the SYG law is going to be THE issue here.


okay, off my soapbox now.

Thank you for getting on your soapbox. You should do it as often as you feel the need. Personally, I hesitate to post on the TM/GZ threads because some of the posters get so very hostile if it is insinuated that TM was anything less than an completely innocent, angelic, scholar who was never in trouble who was stalked and killed in a vicious hate crime by a racist.

I just want the facts and the truth about BOTH of them. Both have a past that is less than perfect. Neither is a martyr or saint. I believe both played a part in events that night and I will wait for the trial for the truth to come out.

People who are overly zealous about any cause whether it is TM, religion, miracle cures, lifestyles, etc turn me off. People who are overly zealous and jumping to huge conclusions about this case are not doing TM a favor by being that way. They are simply reducing their integrity by blowing things out of proportion before the facts are known. They are also turning people to support GZ because they can be so extreme, aggressive and abrasive in their crusade to destroy GZ and turn TM into a saint.

An example is the rumor that the "TB" in GZ MySpace name stood for Trayvon Benjamin. How ridiculous is that? The TB name happened years before he ever laid eyes on TM. But there are people who insist that it stands for Travon Benjamin. If you believe that then I wonder about the validity of anything else you have to say or believe.

I keep an open mind about things and am waiting for the truth. But I have to say that I have avoided posting my feelings and theories on this case because I don't want to get caught up in the ugliness or be attacked for posing a legitimate question or concern.

Frankly, the ugliness that I have seen over this subject has sickened me. We are ALL here for justice for victims and I hate seeing people torn apart into two groups over this case. I will be glad when justice is done and I am glad to see that some of the evidence is coming out to support what George has said.

I don't think George was stalking him with the intent to kill TM. If he was, then he could have just followed him, shot him and slipped off into the darkness and it would just be another unsolved murder.

jaded cat
05-19-2012, 06:51 AM
Thank you for getting on your soapbox. You should do it as often as you feel the need. Personally, I hesitate to post on the TM/GZ threads because some of the posters get so very hostile if it is insinuated that TM was anything less than an completely innocent, angelic, scholar who was never in trouble who was stalked and killed in a vicious hate crime by a racist.

I just want the facts and the truth about BOTH of them. Both have a past that is less than perfect. Neither is a martyr or saint. I believe both played a part in events that night and I will wait for the trial for the truth to come out.

People who are overly zealous about any cause whether it is TM, religion, miracle cures, lifestyles, etc turn me off. People who are overly zealous and jumping to huge conclusions about this case are not doing TM a favor by being that way. They are simply reducing their integrity by blowing things out of proportion before the facts are known. They are also turning people to support GZ because they can be so extreme, aggressive and abrasive in their crusade to destroy GZ and turn TM into a saint.

An example is the rumor that the "TB" in GZ MySpace name stood for Trayvon Benjamin. How ridiculous is that? The TB name happened years before he ever laid eyes on TM. But there are people who insist that it stands for Travon Benjamin. If you believe that then I wonder about the validity of anything else you have to say or believe.

I keep an open mind about things and am waiting for the truth. But I have to say that I have avoided posting my feelings and theories on this case because I don't want to get caught up in the ugliness or be attacked for posing a legitimate question or concern.

Frankly, the ugliness that I have seen over this subject has sickened me. We are ALL here for justice for victims and I hate seeing people torn apart into two groups over this case. I will be glad when justice is done and I am glad to see that some of the evidence is coming out to support what George has said.

I don't think George was stalking him with the intent to kill TM. If he was, then he could have just followed him, shot him and slipped off into the darkness and it would just be another unsolved murder.

There's plenty of hostility to go around in this case, from both sides. Personal attacks have been dealt with quickly by the ever wonderful, but highly overworked mods. It just seem a little disingenuous to talk about being open minded when your post pretty much slams the "pro TM" posters and you have fear of posting an opinion. I'm confused.

saguaro
05-19-2012, 06:55 AM
You already know.

Not this "victim"..

.victim friendly forum or not....
Jmo

What are you implying?

LambChop
05-19-2012, 07:17 AM
I would like to see some evidence to support the story that she was actually hospitalized. From what I gather, that might not be correct.

I don't think that will be considered evidence of anything to do with this case, plus her medical records would be protected. It would be her version against GZ's and MOM is trying to seal GZ's statements because he considers them confessions. jmo

LynnM
05-19-2012, 09:33 AM
I have a sincere question here -

Other than Crump and the media referencing her as Trayvon's girlfriend, what other evidence do we have that she was actually a girlfriend? Does she say that in the interview? (I've only had a chance to listen to a short snip at work. Slow connection at home; hard for me to load audio/video files here.)


I ask that because per the things I have read elsewhere, one of the things that kept glaring at me was that I didn't get the impression that she was all that attached to any one guy. Which is perfectly fine, don't get me wrong. I was just left thinking that either: 1) Trayvon may have considered them an exclusive item, but maybe she felt otherwise; or 2) that they were really good friends and the media blew this relationship way out of proportion.

The problem for me is that some people have concluded that they know her identity and have written things based on that. I am not at all convinced that they are right. We won't know for sure until the trial because her name is not going to be released.

katydid23
05-19-2012, 10:46 AM
I don't think that will be considered evidence of anything to do with this case, plus her medical records would be protected. It would be her version against GZ's and MOM is trying to seal GZ's statements because he considers them confessions. jmo

I saw Mark Geragos and another attorney, I cannot remember her name right now, on CNN yesterday, talking about the girl's testimony. They both agreed that there will be a big fight over allowing this testimony to come in to the trial. And if it does, there will be a lot of defense objection to it being the ultimate in hearsay. And Geragos seemed to think that her actions after the event will also be considered and discussed, as a way to see the conversation in context. In other words, if it was SO obvious that he was attacked by this stranger, then what did she do next? [ If she really did know him since kindergarten, it will be asked if she called his mom or dad, I bet.]

So since Crump has taken her before the public in national news events, that information is going to come in too, if her testimony comes in, imo. And it will be vetted.

Dr.Fessel
05-19-2012, 11:12 AM
I have real feelings about the tragic loss of Trayvon's life. My heart breaks for Sybrina, in particular. She is a gentle soul. I have enormous admiration and respect for her. I also was a single parent and raised 3 teens. I identify with her to a great degree and my heart hurts that she lost her son. :(




This simply isn't fair - no need to paint with such a broad brush here.

This case is different because it is a self-defense case. Very few websleuthers are accustomed to following a self-defense case. I am disturbed by the number of people who just seem willing to totally disregard the US Constitution - seemingly without a second thought just throw the presumption of innocence out the window. This has been happening since the very beginning of this case. It is downright frightening to see this happening. And I don't just mean here at WS. Another poster used the phrase today "emotional hysteria". At some point, we ALL have a responsibility to control the emotions and stop the "right fighting".

I hate the labeling - pro-TM or pro-GZ. I can be both and it is not a conflict. I simply want to know the FACTS. All the noise makes it hard. I want to keep an open mind and understand the truth. I don't really care where that leads me. Just because I am not screaming from the rooftops for GZ's head, doesn't mean the evidence won't lead me there eventually. I just haven't seen it yet. And it isn't cool to assume that those same people are racists or victim-bashers. I'm a paralegal, so I am sure my perspective is a bit different in that sense. I'm nearly always considered pro-prosecution in most every case I follow here, however this is a self-defense case and I know that the SYG law is going to be THE issue here.


okay, off my soapbox now.

BBM

That is not true. This is a charged murder case. The defendant has plead not guilty to it.

In every case like this here on WS people choose sides and because we are not a jury or part of the court system we are not held to the presumed innocent under the constitution. We do not met out punishment or grant immunity. We make assumptions, we argue points and look at evidence and let our thoughts be known as to guilty or not guilty.

Nobody has disregarded the constitution on here because they can't. IMO

pcrum12
05-19-2012, 11:34 AM
Imo, the defense has quite a lot to work with, and girlfriend's story is just the beginning. That's what happens when you set someone up and people get interested.

I honestly didn't expect the medical records or the photos to verify George's injuries to the extent that they did. I am more thoroughly convinced then ever that this was exactly what I thought -- a pc, race-baiting railroading. The fact that George had to be, and was, turned white before he could be villified is just sickening. I'm contributing to his defense fund.

amen! me too!

Lovelymountains
05-19-2012, 11:42 AM
BBM

That is not true. This is a charged murder case. The defendant has plead not guilty to it.

In every case like this here on WS people choose sides and because we are not a jury or part of the court system we are not held to the presumed innocent under the constitution. We do not met out punishment or grant immunity. We make assumptions, we argue points and look at evidence and let our thoughts be known as to guilty or not guilty.

Nobody has disregarded the constitution on here because they can't. IMO

Quite right. While the Constitution must be obeyed in a court of law, since we have no power to convict or absolve GZ, it makes no difference what we conclude insofar as a verdict is concerned. Again you are right.This is a murder case and GZ has been indicted for Second Degree Murder. I believe he has pled "Not Guilty." The trial will determine whether or not he is guilty of that charge. So far, some of us think he is and some think not. We seem to see the evidence from different viewpoints. IMO, though, that's what an internet crime forum is for. That's what we do.

rossva
05-19-2012, 12:10 PM
BBM and yet, until very recently, we had very little to no access to what evidence there is, and do not know what evidence there still is to be revealed, but many have declared GZ guilty based on what the media has reported.

BBM

That is not true. This is a charged murder case. The defendant has plead not guilty to it.

In every case like this here on WS people choose sides and because we are not a jury or part of the court system we are not held to the presumed innocent under the constitution. We do not met out punishment or grant immunity. We make assumptions, we argue points and look at evidence and let our thoughts be known as to guilty or not guilty.

Nobody has disregarded the constitution on here because they can't. IMO

pcrum12
05-19-2012, 12:14 PM
Well,IMO that's the problem ,some posts in this thread seem to have no feelings and I just wonder what makes posters in a victim friendly forum post with no empathy whatsoever towards the victim and the victims family.
What makes this case different that some people are indifferent to this hardcore loss of a human life???? A 17 year old,still a child? Yet you talk about "no feeling"What makes some posters have "no feeling" towards Trayvon,his girlfriend,his parents? What is it? I would really like to know.

In my POV/Opinion, everyone here hates that this young 17 yr old has died. However, some of us tend to also look at the other victim in this case as well, GZ. From my prospective, this case is not cut and dry. Most of the evidence thus far is pointing to a self defense case. And this has with no doubt in my mind ruined this man's life. I just see no evidence at this point that he did anything wrong. IMO, he did not racially profile this young man, and he shot only after screaming for help to no avail. It is clear he was beaten. And, on top of that, he did call police to report this stranger in the community.

As far as the family, they must be devastated. I truly feel for them having lost their son. However, their actions after the fact has raised a lot of questions as to their intentions. Maybe they too are a victim, not only for losing their son, which is a given, but also having been taken advantage of by these race baiting "advocates". I think IMO it's quite clear what their motivation is.

The "g/f", IMO has put herself in the position she's in. Not reporting what she heard is very troublesome. Not only did she not immediately report, it was weeks. And like it or not, her tweeter and fb does not one iota show that she was in the least bit concerned.

JMO and all that jazz.

Maxim
05-19-2012, 12:20 PM
I just want the facts and the truth about BOTH of them. Both have a past that is less than perfect. Neither is a martyr or saint. I believe both played a part in events that night and I will wait for the trial for the truth to come out.

BBM
Excellent post! Pardon me for pulling out only one part, but this expresses my view, too.

If you change the scenario, make GZ equally black, could the very same thing have happened? My response is "oh, yes!"

mdana
05-19-2012, 12:24 PM
BBM

That is not true. The is a charged murder case. The defendant has plead not guilty to it.

In every case like this here on WS people choose sides and because we are not a jury or part of the court system we are not held to the presumed innocent under the constitution. We do not met out punishment or grant immunity. We make assumptions, we argue points and look at evidence and let our thoughts be known as to guilty or not guilty.

Nobody has disregarded the constitution on here because they can't. IMO

Yes, but how many are self-defense cases? It is a whole different dynamic, which I don't think websleuths is capable of handling well (in terms of a reasoned thoughtful debate) due to the victim advocacy ethos. My only long-term exposure in any case here was the Meredith Kercher murder case. I thought the misleading propaganda, and sometimes slanderous accusations that were leveled at the accused (eventually acquitted) RS and AK were disgraceful.

The problem is too many times the assumptions have no bearing on the actual facts, sometimes not even on reality as most people would know it. Too often, I have read speculation that reads more like someone's idea of an episode of the Mentalist or a Lifetime movie, than informed conjecture on this specific case. I have noticed this other cases I have just perused and not commented. -JMO

claudicici
05-19-2012, 12:30 PM
The problem for me is that some people have concluded that they know her identity and have written things based on that. I am not at all convinced that they are right. We won't know for sure until the trial because her name is not going to be released.

ITA,that's another thing,I always felt the person who Tray talked to and is the witness is not the one we assume.There is someone I really think is her but of course we can't discuss it.

SwampMama
05-19-2012, 12:36 PM
There's plenty of hostility to go around in this case, from both sides. Personal attacks have been dealt with quickly by the ever wonderful, but highly overworked mods. It just seem a little disingenuous to talk about being open minded when your post pretty much slams the "pro TM" posters and you have fear of posting an opinion. I'm confused.

The "pro Trayvon" supporters that I supposedly "slammed" are the ones who are overzealous, aggressive and hostile. Did I not mention that? I believe I said "some", not ALL and I gave an example (the TB myspace name) as an example of how far reaching some of the TM supporters are in their quest to paint George as evil and how that hurts their case. I have seen more people who are overly zealous on the TM side, not the GZ side. I would be just as turned off about it if there were GZ supporters on here acting that way but I have not seen that very much, but perhaps I missed that because I have not read every thread and post.

Anyway, my post was OT and I apologize for that. I hope i was able to clear up some of your confusion. But I stand behind what I said 100% and support your right to your opinion. let's just leave it at that.

Dr.Fessel
05-19-2012, 12:41 PM
Yes, but how many are self-defense cases? It is a whole different dynamic, which I don't think websleuths is capable of handling well (in terms of a reasoned thoughtful debate) due to the victim advocacy ethos. My only long-term exposure in any case here was the Meredith Kercher murder case. I thought the misleading propaganda, and sometimes slanderous accusations that were leveled at the accused (eventually acquitted) RS and AK were disgraceful.

The problem is too many times the assumptions have no bearing on the actual facts, sometimes not even on reality as most people would know it. Too often, I have read speculation that reads more like someone's idea of an episode of the Mentalist or a Lifetime movie, than informed conjecture on this specific case. I have noticed this other cases I have just perused and not commented. -JMO

This is not a self defense case. This might be a case where the defendant declares he did it in self defense but he has not done that in the court yet and still it will be a murder trial unless he claims SYG before a judge and wins before the trial.. I am sure we have covered a lot of cases here at WS where someone claims self defense.

Now it appears he has claimed SYG in his confessions (and yes they are considered confessions now and that is why they have not been released) but at this point and in the future it will be a murder case.

There is nothing wrong here at WS with speculation that reads like a lifetime movie or the mentalist as long as they follow the rules and it can be very eye opening and thought provoking. I commend all Websluthers that take the time to truly think about a case and enjoy doing so myself. IMO

Dr.Fessel
05-19-2012, 12:46 PM
BBM and yet, until very recently, we had very little to no access to what evidence there is, and do not know what evidence there still is to be revealed, but many have declared GZ guilty based on what the media has reported.

That might be true and it is alright here. I admit I formed an opinion as soon as I heard the 911 tapes and read the police reports.

stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 12:50 PM
I'm still reading the doc dump but on page 16-17 the SPD is trying to unlock the phone. First they had been hampered by the phone not working (possibly from getting wet on 2/26) and then later they can't get past the swipe code without the PIN number for the account. They contact TM's father on March 5th asking for the PIN and TM's father tells the SPD that they he is going to talk to his lawyer before giving the investigators that information. I've seen no further mention of the phone after that date. It looks to me like SPD took the proper steps to find out if there had been a useful phone/ear witness and they were blocked by Crump.

Has there ever been a reason given why TM's Dad had to speak to a lawyer before giving them TM's pin? No disrespect but puzzlement as to why he and Crump wouldn't want police to have EVERYTHING they need to make a case? Has this been explained? What could be a potential problem from their standpoint that might be discovered on that cell? I can't think why they would object.

Omachka
05-19-2012, 12:58 PM
BBM and yet, until very recently, we had very little to no access to what evidence there is, and do not know what evidence there still is to be revealed, but many have declared GZ guilty based on what the media has reported.

...and yet we are each entitled to our own opinion by the TOS of this wonderful forum. I truly don't understand why there is so much back and forth and quibbling over semantics and personal opinion with this case. Sometimes I have to look at the top of the page and make sure I'm still on Websleuths. In fact on one thread opposing opinions were not welcome to discuss that subject.

Ok now I will step off my soapbox too.

This is a tough case and I think it is quite likely that both were fighting. My opinion is that TM was defending himself from a man he thought meant him harm. GZ was the only one of them who had a chance to change the outcome. It was a situation he instigated by not letting LE do their own job.

I think the girlfriend is doing the best she can to tell the truth based on her own perceptions of what she heard that night. It did not appear to me that she was embellishing. Did she make some errors in how she handled what she heard? IMO yes she did but they were based on fear, immaturity and shock. Please remember she is a 16 year old girl who has gone through a huge tragedy.

TorisMom003
05-19-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm going to share something, while not the same type of experience this young lady had, that happened to me years ago while I was in high school. I had a close friend that I had known for only a year. We were in one class together as he was a senior and I was a junior. We were lab partners in that class and talked about plans for the future, problems with girlfriends/boyfriends, etc. One weekend he, his best friend, and his best friends little brother decided to go camping on one of the islands on one of our lakes. I, along with other mutual friends, tried to talk him out of it as the weather was predicted to be rather rough that weekend. They decided to take a chance and go anyway. Sure enough, on that Saturday we had a bad storm and the lake waters were extremely rough. The only way out to the island was by boat and they only had a "john boat" to use. I was worried all weekend but did not know his parents so I could not call them to find out if he was ok or if they had talked to him. On Monday morning, as soon as I walked into school, two of my closest girlfriends pulled me aside to a quiet corner to tell me the horrible news they had heard while watching tv. All three had not made it home. A search was taking place. The little brother was found first, he was tied to the boat with a life jacket on. The best friend was found later that same day not to far from the boat also with a life jacket on. My friend was not found for another couple of days. During that time I told my parents very little about what I was feeling, I kept it to myself. I wanted my dad to take me out on the lake in his boat to go look for my friend. Fortunately, he being the more mature person, told me no, to let the authorities handle it. I felt tremendous guilt. I blamed myself. If only I could have tried harder to talk my friend into not going. Did it make sense to blame myself? Not really but I did.

My point in sharing this is that I am personally very tired of seeing posts that attempt to place some sort of blame on this young lady. We have no idea what she is going through, what she is feeling. I wish that others would put themselves in her position. Think about how it would feel to know that someone you care about died shortly after you last spoke with them. Then think about how it would feel to have complete strangers question your actions, your thoughts, your grief and wonder, heck even debate, if you were correct in the way you handled yourself.

MOO

jjenny
05-19-2012, 01:04 PM
Even if she wasn't a g/f, as a friend, I don't doubt she is very upset by what happened to Trayvon. But in my opinion, friends and relatives are not exactly "independent" witnesses, so I interpret whatever she heard over the phone with that in mind. And to me, her story doesn't seem to be all that different from Zimmerman's. Trayvon asked Zimmerman why Zimmerman followed him.
Zimmerman responded with what Trayvon was doing there (which appears to be what Zimmerman wanted to know all alone). Then she heard some sort of noise and the head set fell off. I do think that scenario is similar in both version, even if there are differences on what exactly was said. She obviously didn't witness Zimmerman hitting or pushing Trayvon, so she is speculating to that. But there are no injuries to Trayvon to support the idea Zimmerman ever hit him.

chefmom
05-19-2012, 01:36 PM
Let me preface this post by first saying that I lubz all my fellow WS posters, regardless of whether we agree on cases or not.



However, I have to say, I find it somewhat odd that I am seeing some posters on here who are berating this alleged girlfriend for not reporting what she heard to anyone or for allegedly waiting so long to report it to anyone, because I recall many of these same posters defending these same actions in another recent Florida case where a young mother failed to report her daughter missing for 31 days. In that case, many felt that we could not assume she was guilty because she didn't report because everyone dealt with grief differently, or she may have been afraid. Yet, now, this young woman isn't afforded the same.



Just something to think about. IMO

Just K
05-19-2012, 01:46 PM
That might be true and it is alright here. I admit I formed an opinion as soon as I heard the 911 tapes and read the police reports.

Dr F, I too started at the beginning. I listened to the NEN call from GZ, then the 911 tapes and read the initial bulletins and updates from the SPD. I specifically looked for unedited recordings with no timestamps and no commentary. This was either the day of the bond hearing or the night before. I posted the very first link, in the WS's MEdia Thread, to the picture of GZ's head, that ABC News exclusely released, the morning of the bond hearing. One half hour later, I watched the entire uninterrupted CCTV video (LIVE) and that is where I first began to form my opinions as to the character of the defendant George Michael Zimmerman.

(On my local news the day before the bond hearing I heard a snippet about SF not wanting an apology from GZ...in summary it was reported that she felt the apology was too late in coming...)

I listened carefully to GZ go against the explicit wishes of the family and even though he went to the stand to address the court, he spoke directly to TM's parents. In a very matter of fact way he gave condolences and never apologized for his actions...for shooting their son and causing him to die. I watched the prosecutor question GZ and listened to his convoluted answers about his many and varied statements to SPD.

BY NOW; I was beginning to see some major character flaws re: GZ.

Within three days of the bond hearing, M O'M comes on TV and tells us that after trying to claim indigent status for a reduced bond where neither M' O'M nor anyone in GZ's family nor GZ himself thought it wise to either check the balance of the donation site or to tell the court that GZ had a balance of over $204,000 and had already withdrawn some $50,000+ from that account.

Then, I went to the VA Court Records to research GZ's criminal and civil history and finally to the Florida records in reference to his Florida court criminal & civil records.

I researched his College and further determined that GZ has misrepresented his Degree plan. He was a General Studies Major in a yet to be completed two year Associates of Arts Degree (AA) as opposed to the Associates of Science Degree (AS)In Criminal Justice.

I read the NW guidelines and put all of this into context with GZ's call to the SPD NEN and compared all of that to his actions.

With all of these facts, as opposed to opinion and commentary, I formed my basic opinion as to the character of GZ. And stated that opinion on 4/20/2012.


Then, on April 30, 2012, a member found his MySpace Page from 2005...not the controversial one, which to this day I have never seen. M'OM confirmed this to be that of the defendant.

Just last week I watched one interview with Geraldo Rivera, Sabrina F, Tracy M & B Crump. (That was the first time I listened to anything from the family members.) I have yet to listen to any comment by JO or FT. I do not have cable, direct or satellite TV and the first National Network News that I saw re: the case was last night re: the doc dump.

I have watched a couple news stories in the past ten days that have been linked here by posters. And now, I read every page of the doc dump, looked at the pictures of where evidence landed and how far TM's body is from that evidence. I have also listened to the released audio of witness reports.

I am reasonably certain that there are a vast number of people who like some of the WS members, represented in this forum, have been equally diligent in their patient observations of this case and the manner in which events have unfolded.

I am confident that I came to this process of elimination through unbiased research and observation and that many others have as well.

rossva
05-19-2012, 02:09 PM
BBM IIRC that young mother was found not guilty in a court of law later, even though many assumed she was guilkty from day 1.


Let me preface this post by first saying that I lubz all my fellow WS posters, regardless of whether we agree on cases or not.



However, I have to say, I find it somewhat odd that I am seeing some posters on here who are berating this alleged girlfriend for not reporting what she heard to anyone or for allegedly waiting so long to report it to anyone, because I recall many of these same posters defending these same actions in another recent Florida case where a young mother failed to report her daughter missing for 31 days. In that case, many felt that we could not assume she was guilty because she didn't report because everyone dealt with grief differently, or she may have been afraid. Yet, now, this young woman isn't afforded the same.



Just something to think about. IMO

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 02:13 PM
\

My point in sharing this is that I am personally very tired of seeing posts that attempt to place some sort of blame on this young lady. We have no idea what she is going through, what she is feeling. I wish that others would put themselves in her position. Think about how it would feel to know that someone you care about died shortly after you last spoke with them. Then think about how it would feel to have complete strangers question your actions, your thoughts, your grief and wonder, heck even debate, if you were correct in the way you handled yourself.

MOO

While I understand what you are saying, one thing that is significantly different is that the situation with your friends had to do with an accident. In TM's situation, the possibility existed that someone was solely responsible for *murdering* him.

I certainly understand that she's young and her emotions and actions lack the maturity we would expect from an adult. But if I had heard something that gave me the impression that one of my closest friends - possibly a boyfriend - had been murdered and the murderer was accusing my friend of starting it... and I knew differently based on what I had heard... and his parents, people I had possibly known since kindergarten, well... I have to think I would say something.

tehcloser
05-19-2012, 02:29 PM
She may have been trying to say something. Perhaps her parents didn't want to hear it for whatever reason and tried to keep her out of it. We just don't know.

jjenny
05-19-2012, 02:30 PM
Let me preface this post by first saying that I lubz all my fellow WS posters, regardless of whether we agree on cases or not.



However, I have to say, I find it somewhat odd that I am seeing some posters on here who are berating this alleged girlfriend for not reporting what she heard to anyone or for allegedly waiting so long to report it to anyone, because I recall many of these same posters defending these same actions in another recent Florida case where a young mother failed to report her daughter missing for 31 days. In that case, many felt that we could not assume she was guilty because she didn't report because everyone dealt with grief differently, or she may have been afraid. Yet, now, this young woman isn't afforded the same.



Just something to think about. IMO

There might be people that defended actions of "young mother" in another recent FL case, but I resent the implication that those are all the same people that have questions about g/f waiting to give a statement in this case until contacted by a lawyer. I, for one, thought the idea of not reporting a child missing for 31 days is ludicrous, to say the least.

LambChop
05-19-2012, 02:30 PM
While I understand what you are saying, one thing that is significantly different is that the situation with your friends had to do with an accident. In TM's situation, the possibility existed that someone was solely responsible for *murdering* him.

I certainly understand that she's young and her emotions and actions lack the maturity we would expect from an adult. But if I had heard something that gave me the impression that one of my closest friends - possibly a boyfriend - had been murdered and the murderer was accusing my friend of starting it... and I knew differently based on what I had heard... and his parents, people I had possibly known since kindergarten, well... I have to think I would say something.

We don't know that she didn't. jmo

LambChop
05-19-2012, 02:32 PM
There might be people that defended actions of "young mother" in another recent FL case, but I resent the implication that those are all the same people that have questions about g/f waiting to give a statement in this case until contacted by a lawyer. I, for one, thought the idea of not reporting a child missing for 31 days is ludicrous, to say the least.

I believe Chefmon stated many and not all. jmo

jjenny
05-19-2012, 02:36 PM
I believe Chefmon stated many and not all. jmo

And what's the evidence for "many?"

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 02:42 PM
And we know how reliable the MSM sources have been. So reliable three NBC employees were fired for editing GZ's 911 call to portray him as a racist. MSM won't touch the g/f's story, it will make them look too unsympathetic. JMO

I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the sorry state of what passes for these reporting days, and not only in this case. What those fired employees did was appalling, IMO, and they deserved to be fired.

I don't agree that MSM won't touch the g/f's story for fear of looking unsympathetic. They are in the business of making money, and controversy sells. Sympathy doesn't enter the equation.

All that being said, however, for me the issue is this. This Websleuths rule is very clear:

Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.

And I see this rule violated again and again--even by a mod--on this forum WRT this other decidedly non-MSM source.

So IMO either this rule should be tossed and any old source allowed, or it should be enforced.

JMO as always.

Karmady
05-19-2012, 02:47 PM
And what's the evidence for "many?"

Idk, but I know it's not me since I wasn't even a member here then. So if it's not you and it's not me, there can't be very "many" left. lol

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't think that will be considered evidence of anything to do with this case, plus her medical records would be protected. It would be her version against GZ's and MOM is trying to seal GZ's statements because he considers them confessions. jmo

Medical records are not necessarily protected from subpoenas.

sleonardelli
05-19-2012, 02:56 PM
Even if she wasn't a g/f, as a friend, I don't doubt she is very upset by what happened to Trayvon. But in my opinion, friends and relatives are not exactly "independent" witnesses, so I interpret whatever she heard over the phone with that in mind. And to me, her story doesn't seem to be all that different from Zimmerman's. Trayvon asked Zimmerman why Zimmerman followed him.
Zimmerman responded with what Trayvon was doing there (which appears to be what Zimmerman wanted to know all alone). Then she heard some sort of noise and the head set fell off. I do think that scenario is similar in both version, even if there are differences on what exactly was said. She obviously didn't witness Zimmerman hitting or pushing Trayvon, so she is speculating to that. But there are no injuries to Trayvon to support the idea Zimmerman ever hit him.

She says she also heard Trayvon say something like "Get off get off". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70000036/News/Trayvon-s-girlfriend-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490 (1:42) That leads me to believe that GZ laid hands on Trayvon.

jjenny
05-19-2012, 02:58 PM
She says she also heard Trayvon say something like "Get off get off". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70000036/News/Trayvon-s-girlfriend-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490 (1:42) That leads me to believe that GZ laid hands on Trayvon.

I guess we are going to go in circles. Have you listened to the actual interview where she said that? "Get off" was supposedly heard after the head set already fell off. The lawyer is previously quoted saying last thing she heard was someone hitting the phone.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Even if she wasn't a g/f, as a friend, I don't doubt she is very upset by what happened to Trayvon. But in my opinion, friends and relatives are not exactly "independent" witnesses, so I interpret whatever she heard over the phone with that in mind. And to me, her story doesn't seem to be all that different from Zimmerman's. Trayvon asked Zimmerman why Zimmerman followed him.
Zimmerman responded with what Trayvon was doing there (which appears to be what Zimmerman wanted to know all alone). Then she heard some sort of noise and the head set fell off. I do think that scenario is similar in both version, even if there are differences on what exactly was said. She obviously didn't witness Zimmerman hitting or pushing Trayvon, so she is speculating to that. But there are no injuries to Trayvon to support the idea Zimmerman ever hit him.

I haven't listened to her statement. Just jumping off from your post and asking the group at large, not you personally, is there anything in there where Trayvon told her the man had stopped following him so now he was going to turn around and follow him back? As GZ stated what happened?

TorisMom003
05-19-2012, 03:04 PM
While I understand what you are saying, one thing that is significantly different is that the situation with your friends had to do with an accident. In TM's situation, the possibility existed that someone was solely responsible for *murdering* him.

I certainly understand that she's young and her emotions and actions lack the maturity we would expect from an adult. But if I had heard something that gave me the impression that one of my closest friends - possibly a boyfriend - had been murdered and the murderer was accusing my friend of starting it... and I knew differently based on what I had heard... and his parents, people I had possibly known since kindergarten, well... I have to think I would say something.

And she did say something. If she had kept quiet then we would not have this thread. I find it odd that so many are willing to believe that she lied about the conversation and what she heard and yet are willing to believe Zimmerman on his account of what happened. Zimmerman has a huge reason to cover his arse. Trayvon's friend does not. She is not charged with 2nd degree murder and is not facing the possibility of spending the rest of her life in prison, that would be Zimmerman. The account between the friend and Zimmerman are different. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon asked him if he had a problem and then said well you do now. The friend claims that Trayvon asked why are you following me. In Zimmerman's account Tryavon is hostile. In the friend's account Trayvon is asking a question that any normal human being would ask when being followed by a stranger. There is a major disconnect between the two and out of the two only one has a reason to lie, IMO.

MOO

jjenny
05-19-2012, 03:06 PM
And she did say something. If she had kept quiet then we would not have this thread. I find it odd that so many are willing to believe that she lied about the conversation and what she heard and yet are willing to believe Zimmerman on his account of what happened. Zimmerman has a huge reason to cover his arse. Trayvon's friend does not. She is not charged with 2nd degree murder and is not facing the possibility of spending the rest of her life in prison, that would be Zimmerman. The account between the friend and Zimmerman are different. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon asked him if he had a problem and then said well you do now. The friend claims that Trayvon asked why are you following me. In Zimmerman's account Tryavon is hostile. In the friend's account Trayvon is asking a question that any normal human being would ask when being followed by a stranger. There is a major disconnect between the two and out of the two only one has a reason to lie, IMO.

MOO

Neither one of them was writing down exactly what was said, I presume.
If you know anything about witness testimony is that there bound to be inconsistencies between two witnesses.

LambChop
05-19-2012, 03:12 PM
Medical records are not necessarily protected from subpoenas.

But it has no relevance to the case and she's a minor. What would it prove regarding TM death? He was already dead when she went to the hospital. She's a witness and the hospital has nothing to do with his death. jmo

TorisMom003
05-19-2012, 03:16 PM
Neither one of them was writing down exactly what was said, I presume.
If you know anything about witness testimony is that there bound to be inconsistencies between two witnesses.

And yet the witness statements that have Zimmerman as the one being "attacked" are taken as gospel. I have said before that witness statements are unreliable. And yet Zimmerman's account of things is also being taken as gospel. Trayvon "attacked" Zimmerman because Zimmerman said so, regardless of the fact that Zimmerman has a huge reason to lie and not admit if he was at fault.

MOO

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 03:18 PM
And she did say something. If she had kept quiet then we would not have this thread. I find it odd that so many are willing to believe that she lied about the conversation and what she heard and yet are willing to believe Zimmerman on his account of what happened. Zimmerman has a huge reason to cover his arse. Trayvon's friend does not. She is not charged with 2nd degree murder and is not facing the possibility of spending the rest of her life in prison, that would be Zimmerman. The account between the friend and Zimmerman are different. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon asked him if he had a problem and then said well you do now. The friend claims that Trayvon asked why are you following me. In Zimmerman's account Tryavon is hostile. In the friend's account Trayvon is asking a question that any normal human being would ask when being followed by a stranger. There is a major disconnect between the two and out of the two only one has a reason to lie, IMO.

MOO

Two quick things...

1) Based on statements made in this thread, I was under the impression that it was some weeks (three?) before she spoke to anyone - at least in LE - and that the conversation didn't occur until after the police were able to get into TM's phone and determined that he had been talking to someone at her number.

I apologize if I misunderstood, but that's the impression I got from previous posts.

2) I have not accused her of lying - not at all. However, I disagree with your assessment that she has nothing to hide, therefore, she must be telling the truth. If my #1 is correct, she had three weeks to play the conversation over in her head, and usually, I think people tend to mentally emphasize pieces of information that they deem relevant as they replay conversations in their head. It's human nature.

She *probably* has nothing to hide. I have not seen anything to make me think she does. That said, it's impossible to know what they were talking about. They were kids, and he had been shipped off to another home (his dad's fiance's) because he was in trouble with school administrators. He wasn't a squeaky clean boy. We don't know if she was a squeaky clean girl. We have no evidence about her character at all. Absolutely none, good or bad, so to characterize their conversation in any way is to presume facts not in evidence.

Also, I think it would be human nature to want to preserve the memory of a deceased friend and to feel protective of their honor. Especially if it was a person one was especially close to. Just as many here on this forum 'read' things in a certain light depending on whether their 'loyalties' lie with GZ or TM, it's entirely possible - likely, even - that the statements TM said to her on the phone and the tone she detected in his voice were tempered by her loyalty to him.

It doesn't make her bad or a liar. It would just mean that she is human.

jjenny
05-19-2012, 03:22 PM
And yet the witness statements that have Zimmerman as the one being "attacked" are taken as gospel. I have said before that witness statements are unreliable. And yet Zimmerman's account of things is also being taken as gospel. Trayvon "attacked" Zimmerman because Zimmerman said so, regardless of the fact that Zimmerman has a huge reason to lie and not admit if he was at fault.

MOO

Taken as gospel? Not on most on this board, that's for sure.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 03:22 PM
In the sworn interview recorded on April 2, which runs more than 22 minutes, the unidentified 16-year-old said Mr. Martin described a man who was "crazy and creepy" and on the phone, watching him from a vehicle before he started to follow him on foot.

Link: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/us/martin-spoke-of-crazy-and-creepy-man-following-him-friend-says-636631/

So for her story to support Zimmerman's, she also has to say at some point that TM turned around and followed Zimmerman back.

Did she? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

jjenny
05-19-2012, 03:24 PM
In the sworn interview recorded on April 2, which runs more than 22 minutes, the unidentified 16-year-old said Mr. Martin described a man who was "crazy and creepy" and on the phone, watching him from a vehicle before he started to follow him on foot.

Link: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/us/martin-spoke-of-crazy-and-creepy-man-following-him-friend-says-636631/

So for her story to support Zimmerman's, she also has to say at some point that TM turned around and followed Zimmerman back.

Did she? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

No, she never says that. But she does have Trayvon asking the first question. So that suggests to me that at the very least Trayvon stopped and faced Zimmerman.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 03:27 PM
But it has no relevance to the case and she's a minor. What would it prove regarding TM death? He was already dead when she went to the hospital. She's a witness and the hospital has nothing to do with his death. jmo

I have no idea. I was only trying to clarify your statement "her medical records are protected." It was a tangent, sorry.

IzzyBlanche
05-19-2012, 03:30 PM
No, she never says that. But she does have Trayvon asking the first question. So that suggests to me that at the very least Trayvon stopped and faced Zimmerman.

Thank you. But GZ said he stopped following TM and was returning to his truck when TM jumped him. So her statement IMO certainly does not support GZ's. TM may well have, and IMO probably did, stop and faced Zimmerman. But that is nowhere near the same thing as following him and jumping him from behind as GZ supposedly stated.

Again not directed at you, just jumping off from your post.

TorisMom003
05-19-2012, 03:30 PM
No, she never says that. But she does have Trayvon asking the first question. So that suggests to me that at the very least Trayvon stopped and faced Zimmerman.

And that question was? If we are going to use the fact that Trayvon asked the first question then we have to look at what that question was. A person being followed by a stranger does have the right to ask why that stranger is following them. It does not indicate that Trayvon started the fight, simply that he questioned why he was being followed. If we want to look at it as Trayvon instigating the fight or altercation then I say that we have to go further back than that. If Zimmerman had not followed Trayvon then the question would not have been asked in the first place. There again it leads to Zimmerman being the instigator and not Trayvon.

MOO

jjenny
05-19-2012, 03:34 PM
Thank you. But GZ said he stopped following TM and was returning to his truck when TM jumped him. So her statement IMO certainly does not support GZ's. TM may well have, and IMO probably did, stop and faced Zimmerman. But that is nowhere near the same thing as following him and jumping him from behind as GZ supposedly stated.

Again not directed at you, just jumping off from your post.

I don't think Zimmerman ever claimed Trayvon jumped him from behind. My understanding of the story is that Zimmerman claims Trayvon approached him and they exchanged words.
Of course we don't have the actual statement from Zimmerman yet.

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 03:36 PM
In the sworn interview recorded on April 2, which runs more than 22 minutes, the unidentified 16-year-old said Mr. Martin described a man who was "crazy and creepy" and on the phone, watching him from a vehicle before he started to follow him on foot.

Link: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/us/martin-spoke-of-crazy-and-creepy-man-following-him-friend-says-636631/

So for her story to support Zimmerman's, she also has to say at some point that TM turned around and followed Zimmerman back.

Did she? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

It has been stated here that since it was dark and raining that GZ wouldn't have been able to see TM well enough to characterize him as 'on drugs or something..."

But if TM said GZ, sitting in his vehicle, was acting "crazy and creepy", well... wasn't the weather the same for both of them?

TorisMom003
05-19-2012, 04:59 PM
No, she never says that. But she does have Trayvon asking the first question. So that suggests to me that at the very least Trayvon stopped and faced Zimmerman.

While reading through the documents that have been released the other day I ran across something that backs up that Zimmerman continued after Trayvon. I wanted to make sure of what I had read, get a correct copy of what I read and also make note of the page number of it for others to look at. While most, if not all, of what Zimmerman claimed to SPD that night has been redacted there is a section that still stands. In the autopsy report there is the case summary that has a statement by Inv. Serino. Obviously Inv. Serino received the information from Zimmerman and then passed that information on to the proper person dealing with the autopsy of Trayvon. What I am referring to follows:

Pg 138 of 183
Medical Examiner Case Report
Case Summary:
ECC contacted Fl Malphurs of an apparent death in Sanford in the courtyard behind 2861 Retreat View Circle. Person of contact (POC) was SPD Inv. Serino. POC advised of an unknown B/M who had been shot by a resident of the complex. POC stated the following:

At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. That resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhomes. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SFD arrived on scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours. The identity of the male was unknown.

Link for the above:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor


The bolded above is the part that may cause Zimmerman problems and more than likely is part of the reason why A Corey filed charges against Zimmerman.

MOO

saguaro
05-19-2012, 05:41 PM
Oops, posted in wrong place.

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 06:10 PM
And I believe that the Martin's family lawyer didn't mention it either. Doesn't appear like anything about "get off" came out until the interviewer kept on probing and probing.

We learned about the "body talk" in Tammi Smith's trial. That could be what happened here. She recalled something she hadn't before because of the discussion about the incident. It is used all the time to help witnesses recall events.

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Zimmerman doesn't have a deep voice. He has a kind of high pitched voice that we all heard on him calling 911.

I suspect that Zimmerman intentionally spoke in a menacing tone, which would mean he lowered his tone and raised his voice. I think he intended to be intimidating, jmo. Too a teenager, at least to her, she said he sounded old. Maybe she meant older, what difference does it make. Do you think it was someone other than GZ or do you think she is lying. I am sure that all the GZ supporters are quite upset the state has a star witness to the events shortly before GZ murdered Trayvon. jmo

ILikeToBendPages
05-19-2012, 06:53 PM
But I do have an idea, in fact, I know, from witness statements, who hit the ground and started yelling for help, George. IMO, it's grasping at straws and a practice in futility to continue to carry on the charade. But that's JMO.


George made several very bad decisions that got a young man killed. He got out of his truck armed and hunted a young man down and killed him and now a young girl is being raked the coals in how she is or not reacting to her boyfriend death.,

I think the young man had a choice of fight or flight when George confronted him with a gun. His only thought would of been the chance of being shot right then and there or being shot in the back if he ran. His only thought may of been to get the gun and save himself. The only way he could gain control of that gun was to fight for it.

George was the aggressor and had someone he was trying to bully and intimidate fight back. I don't think George had plans on killing Trayvon, but by his bad decisions and action he killed a young boy.

I'm not saying he should fry. I'm just saying the punishment should fit the crime. He should have some alone time to rethink what he should or shouldn't of done in a prison cell. I'm not talking about a life sentence but a just punishment for his action that led to someones death.,

In 1992 my fifteen year old daughter was to go with her best friend and mother to the horse races on a nice Sunday during one of her mom's visitation weekend. They never showed up. My daughter called several times and never reached them. She called the next day trying to reach her again.

On Tuesday morning I was watching the early morning news and saw that two women had been found shot in the back of the head and dumped on dirt farm road two counties away. They showed a man handcuffed and being led to a police car. The reporter asked if he had killed his girlfriend and her fourteen year old daughter. I didn't think any more about it.,

A few hours later my husband called and said that T's step-mom had called and that T and her mother had been killed. They had been shot and dumped on a dirt road. I was stunned. All I could think of was my daughter and what if she had been with them. I called back and asked my husband to go and take her phone of the hook so no one would call and tell her. It was one of the hardest things I had to do in my life to go in and wake her up to tell her.

She watched the news clip of her best friend being carried in a body bag to the ME van. I was expecting screaming and hysterics ,but she never did. I was more upset than what I could see she was. She video taped the news clip later that evening and didn't really say much about anything.

The only thing she said that bothered her what that her friend was in a pink coffin and she knew that she would of hated it. It also bothered her the minister kept pronouncing her name wrong. Many teens react much differently then we or expect them to do.

I cringe at "like" and "you know" every time they say it. It's just the way some speak. Don't be to hard on her. She's a young girl. She will have a lifetime of guilt.

suzihawk
05-19-2012, 06:59 PM
It has been stated here that since it was dark and raining that GZ wouldn't have been able to see TM well enough to characterize him as 'on drugs or something..."

But if TM said GZ, sitting in his vehicle, was acting "crazy and creepy", well... wasn't the weather the same for both of them?

I've been in and out (mostly out) for the day so pardon the late reply.

Yes, the weather, distance between the two and all other conditions were the same for both Trayvon and Zimmerman. However, if Zimmerman was following Trayvon, first slowly in his vehicle and then on foot, I would certainly consider that 'crazy and creepy' behavior. IMO

ILikeToBendPages
05-19-2012, 07:07 PM
No, she never says that. But she does have Trayvon asking the first question. So that suggests to me that at the very least Trayvon stopped and faced Zimmerman.

Put yourself in Trayvon's situation. What would you do if some creepy man was following you? Would you keep on walking, hoping he'd go away on his own? or would you stop and ask why he was following you?

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 07:10 PM
I wouldn't doubt that she didn't tell them, just as I wouldn't doubt that they had no clue that she was "distraught" over it.

What does being African American have to do with doing the right thing? It's called integrity and the last time I looked up the word it didn't have segregated definitions.

If Ms. Genovese is who I think it is (Genovese was a HUGE name back when the mob ran everything) I don't doubt that people wouldn't talk about it. The mafia was a pretty scary thing at one point in time.

I am surprised at the number of people who put blame of some kind on a friend of Trayvon for she did or didn't do. It is the GZ himself who stalked and killed Trayvon that should be the focus of ire, imo.

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 07:12 PM
Maybe she assumed he was punched. Maybe he was grabbed. She obviously knew something was happening.

As for probing, if you check witness reports, some of them too, were probed. People may report but LE may need more details. Sounds reasonable to me.

Not only probed but told what to think and say, unbelievable.

Nova
05-19-2012, 07:17 PM
My speculation is that she felt guilty only AFTER she was told the same story Crump sold to the media about how Trayvon had been hunted down like an animal by a "white" racist vigilante. Notice how she said that Trayvon had concluded that George was "white" when he saw George in his car...really? He concluded that a "latino-looking" guy was white even though the guy was in his car, in the dark, at a distance. Not buyin' that at all even assuming that you could conclude, visually, that George is white under ANY circumstances. Even the officers on the scene described him as latino....

With respect, you're imposing your own racial constructions on the witness. Some people see race in terms of black and white (particularly in areas where Asian Americans are less common). Even the government sees "Latino" as an ethnicity that can include any race.

There's nothing particularly incredible about the idea that TM saw GZ as a "white man."

(I know you know this, Karmody, but to be clear to other readers: different cultures and different individuals have different ways of defining race. That's what I'm talking about above. There's nothing in my remarks that accuses Karmody of being "racist" and that is certainly not my intent. I'm just saying the witness or TM may not have defined race as Karmody does.)

sleonardelli
05-19-2012, 07:27 PM
Put yourself in Trayvon's situation. What would you do if some creepy man was following you? Would you keep on walking, hoping he'd go away on his own? or would you stop and ask why he was following you?

Per the GF, Trayvon said "He's getting close" before Trayvon asked GZ "Why are you following me" and GZ asked "What are you doing here". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70000036/News/Trayvon-s-girlfriend-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490 (1:42)

IMO, GZ continued following TM or at least looking for him. When he got close, Trayvon asked why he was following. At that point, running home may not have been an option in his mind since BG's 13-year-old was home alone. He may have tried "manning up" instead of potentially putting the boy in harm's way. That's pure speculation and after talking to my near 15-year-old, is likely the same thing he would've done. God help me, I'd prefer my kid to run knowing what I know about this case.

ILikeToBendPages
05-19-2012, 07:33 PM
Thank you for getting on your soapbox. You should do it as often as you feel the need. Personally, I hesitate to post on the TM/GZ threads because some of the posters get so very hostile if it is insinuated that TM was anything less than an completely innocent, angelic, scholar who was never in trouble who was stalked and killed in a vicious hate crime by a racist.

I just want the facts and the truth about BOTH of them. Both have a past that is less than perfect. Neither is a martyr or saint. I believe both played a part in events that night and I will wait for the trial for the truth to come out.

People who are overly zealous about any cause whether it is TM, religion, miracle cures, lifestyles, etc turn me off. People who are overly zealous and jumping to huge conclusions about this case are not doing TM a favor by being that way. They are simply reducing their integrity by blowing things out of proportion before the facts are known. They are also turning people to support GZ because they can be so extreme, aggressive and abrasive in their crusade to destroy GZ and turn TM into a saint.

An example is the rumor that the "TB" in GZ MySpace name stood for Trayvon Benjamin. How ridiculous is that? The TB name happened years before he ever laid eyes on TM. But there are people who insist that it stands for Travon Benjamin. If you believe that then I wonder about the validity of anything else you have to say or believe.

I keep an open mind about things and am waiting for the truth. But I have to say that I have avoided posting my feelings and theories on this case because I don't want to get caught up in the ugliness or be attacked for posing a legitimate question or concern.

Frankly, the ugliness that I have seen over this subject has sickened me. We are ALL here for justice for victims and I hate seeing people torn apart into two groups over this case. I will be glad when justice is done and I am glad to see that some of the evidence is coming out to support what George has said.

I don't think George was stalking him with the intent to kill TM. If he was, then he could have just followed him, shot him and slipped off into the darkness and it would just be another unsolved murder.


Trayvon Martin was a seventeen year old boy. He had made a few bad choices. He had a lifetime to change directions.

George Zimmerman is a twenty eight year old man. He has a past of being a bully and a history of bad decisions. It's the bad decisions he made that night that will follow him till the day he dies. He lost control of a situation he created. Sad isn't it?

krimekat
05-19-2012, 07:37 PM
Trayvon Martin was a seventeen year old boy. He had made a few bad choices. He had a lifetime to change directions.

George Zimmerman is a twenty eight year old man. He has a past of being a bully and a history of bad decisions. It's the bad decisions he made that night that will follow him till the day he dies. He lost control of a situation he created. Sad isn't it?

BBM respectfully, only if he was not fighting for his life . . . IMHO of course

It's apparent now that some type of "fight" occurred.

Karmady
05-19-2012, 07:45 PM
With respect, you're imposing your own racial constructions on the witness. Some people see race in terms of black and white (particularly in areas where Asian Americans are less common). Even the government sees "Latino" as an ethnicity that can include any race.

There's nothing particularly incredible about the idea that TM saw GZ as a "white man."

(I know you know this, Karmody, but to be clear to other readers: different cultures and different individuals have different ways of defining race. That's what I'm talking about above. There's nothing in my remarks that accuses Karmody of being "racist" and that is certainly not my intent. I'm just saying the witness or TM may not have defined race as Karmody does.)

You may be right about that. But maybe not. Idk. This Pew study suggests that blacks identify hispanics as hispanics and view them favorably, in general. I thought it was interesting, so I linked it.

Nonetheless, my point was that the girl, imo, was responding to Crump's characterizations of race, not her own and not Trayvon's. There's no doubt in my mind that Crump's characterization of George as "white" was entirely deliberate and not based on his own racial construct -- whatever that might be in his non-professional life.

and thanks, again, for the respectful post. :)

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/01/31/do-blacks-and-hispanics-get-along/

Karmady
05-19-2012, 07:49 PM
I am surprised at the number of people who put blame of some kind on a friend of Trayvon for she did or didn't do. It is the GZ himself who stalked and killed Trayvon that should be the focus of ire, imo.

Speaking only for myself, I don't *blame* her for anything. My perspective has strictly to do with her credibility as a witness and my perception of Crump's actions which are, imo, extremely despicable and not at all consistent with his ethical obligations. jmo

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 07:54 PM
Put yourself in Trayvon's situation. What would you do if some creepy man was following you? Would you keep on walking, hoping he'd go away on his own? or would you stop and ask why he was following you?

IMO, what anyone would do is really just anecdotal. Personally, I would go home as fast as possible, walking with something sharp protruding from between my fingers (like my car keys) so I could poke their eyes out if they approached me and tried anything. I'd shut the door to my house as quickly as possible, and lock it. I would turn out the lights inside, and peer out from between the curtains to see if they stuck around or left my neighborhood.

No way would I walk up to them and initiate a conversation.

stmarysmead
05-19-2012, 07:57 PM
George made several very bad decisions that got a young man killed. He got out of his truck armed and hunted a young man down and killed him and now a young girl is being raked the coals in how she is or not reacting to her boyfriend death.,

I think the young man had a choice of fight or flight when George confronted him with a gun. His only thought would of been the chance of being shot right then and there or being shot in the back if he ran. His only thought may of been to get the gun and save himself. The only way he could gain control of that gun was to fight for it.

George was the aggressor and had someone he was trying to bully and intimidate fight back. I don't think George had plans on killing Trayvon, but by his bad decisions and action he killed a young boy.

I'm not saying he should fry. I'm just saying the punishment should fit the crime. He should have some alone time to rethink what he should or shouldn't of done in a prison cell. I'm not talking about a life sentence but a just punishment for his action that led to someones death.,

In 1992 my fifteen year old daughter was to go with her best friend and mother to the horse races on a nice Sunday during one of her mom's visitation weekend. They never showed up. My daughter called several times and never reached them. She called the next day trying to reach her again.

On Tuesday morning I was watching the early morning news and saw that two women had been found shot in the back of the head and dumped on dirt farm road two counties away. They showed a man handcuffed and being led to a police car. The reporter asked if he had killed his girlfriend and her fourteen year old daughter. I didn't think any more about it.,

A few hours later my husband called and said that T's step-mom had called and that T and her mother had been killed. They had been shot and dumped on a dirt road. I was stunned. All I could think of was my daughter and what if she had been with them. I called back and asked my husband to go and take her phone of the hook so no one would call and tell her. It was one of the hardest things I had to do in my life to go in and wake her up to tell her.

She watched the news clip of her best friend being carried in a body bag to the ME van. I was expecting screaming and hysterics ,but she never did. I was more upset than what I could see she was. She video taped the news clip later that evening and didn't really say much about anything.

The only thing she said that bothered her what that her friend was in a pink coffin and she knew that she would of hated it. It also bothered her the minister kept pronouncing her name wrong. Many teens react much differently then we or expect them to do.

I cringe at "like" and "you know" every time they say it. It's just the way some speak. Don't be to hard on her. She's a young girl. She will have a lifetime of guilt.

There is no evidence that GZ 'hunted TM down." He watched him. There is no evidence anywhere that his gun was drawn or he "confronted" TM with a gun. We do not even know if TM knew GZ had a gun. This is all opinion based on no evidence to date.

There is no evidence that suggests that TM was looking at a gun pointed at him and decding whether to flee and get shot in the back. How did GZ get a broken nose and witnesses see him having his head smashed into concrete if TM was being detained at gunpoint? That makes no sense. From what evidence do you postulate that TM tried to get the gun to save himself? Please, please link to evidence in the Doc dump that shows evidence that TM was held at gunpoint. This kind of speculation is so far off the mark and so unfair.

Do you want people making up stories with no evidence to attach to TM or his family? Then please lets stick to facts in evidence.

wowitsdark
05-19-2012, 07:59 PM
Speaking only for myself, I don't *blame* her for anything. My perspective has strictly to do with her credibility as a witness and my perception of Crump's actions which are, imo, extremely despicable and not at all consistent with his ethical obligations. jmo

Same here. To me, it's all about credibility.

It's unfortunate that she is young and in an emotionally difficult place right now, and has to have her credibility questioned. Nobody should have to be in that position who didn't invite it upon themselves, and she certainly did not do that.

The issue, to me, though, is that GZ's life is in the balance right now. He either committed 2nd degree murder, or he didn't. From a legal and moral standpoint, he is owed a fair and objective trial. It's how we do things. And our feelings of sympathy for the girl's position can't get in the way of ensuring that our justice system works as it is supposed to. If she is to testify, whether or not she is a credible witness must be considered.

jjenny
05-19-2012, 08:03 PM
Same here. To me, it's all about credibility.

It's unfortunate that she is young and in an emotionally difficult place right now, and has to have her credibility questioned. Nobody should have to be in that position who didn't invite it upon themselves, and she certainly did not do that.

The issue, to me, though, is that GZ's life is in the balance right now. He either committed 2nd degree murder, or he didn't. From a legal and moral standpoint, he is owed a fair and objective trial. It's how we do things. And our feelings of sympathy for the girl's position can't get in the way of ensuring that our justice system works as it is supposed to. If she is to testify, whether or not she is a credible witness must be considered.

ITA. Zimmerman could end up spending a really long time in prison. He deserves a fair trial. And it is going to be very difficult for him to get one, considering the enormous publicity affecting the jury pool.

Karmady
05-19-2012, 08:15 PM
ITA. Zimmerman could end up spending a really long time in prison. He deserves a fair trial. And it is going to be very difficult for him to get one, considering the enormous publicity affecting the jury pool.

Not only the jury pool, either. I was talking to that same experienced trial attorney I asked about the hearsay issue. He felt that it was entirely possible that the judge will not want to put his career on the line at an SYG hearing in this case. WAY too much potentially career-ending (or worse) pressure. We agreed that it was unfortunate, but that it's hardly beyond the realm of possibility, if not likely. :::sigh:::

ILikeToBendPages
05-19-2012, 08:17 PM
IMO, what anyone would do is really just anecdotal. Personally, I would go home as fast as possible, walking with something sharp protruding from between my fingers (like my car keys) so I could poke their eyes out if they approached me and tried anything. I'd shut the door to my house as quickly as possible, and lock it. I would turn out the lights inside, and peer out from between the curtains to see if they stuck around or left my neighborhood.

No way would I walk up to them and initiate a conversation.


I guess Trayvon could of pelted him with Skittles. but that could be considered assault and a reason to be shot dead.

ILikeToBendPages
05-19-2012, 08:32 PM
There is no evidence that GZ 'hunted TM down." He watched him. There is no evidence anywhere that his gun was drawn or he "confronted" TM with a gun. We do not even know if TM knew GZ had a gun. This is all opinion based on no evidence to date.

There is no evidence that suggests that TM was looking at a gun pointed at him and decding whether to flee and get shot in the back. How did GZ get a broken nose and witnesses see him having his head smashed into concrete if TM was being detained at gunpoint? That makes no sense. From what evidence do you postulate that TM tried to get the gun to save himself? Please, please link to evidence in the Doc dump that shows evidence that TM was held at gunpoint. This kind of speculation is so far off the mark and so unfair.

Do you want people making up stories with no evidence to attach to TM or his family? Then please lets stick to facts in evidence.

George was out of his truck armed looking for an A##### that always gets away. I think George places himself out of his truck looking for someone up to no good and on drugs. That to me is hunting a person down.

It's also reasonable to me that Trayvon saw the gun, thought George was going for that gun and that is what started a fight. That to me makes sense.

I have no evidence just as you have none. I am stating my own opinion of what I think happened between a young boy and a grown man.

Nova
05-19-2012, 08:38 PM
You may be right about that. But maybe not. Idk. This Pew study suggests that blacks identify hispanics as hispanics and view them favorably, in general. I thought it was interesting, so I linked it.

Nonetheless, my point was that the girl, imo, was responding to Crump's characterizations of race, not her own and not Trayvon's. There's no doubt in my mind that Crump's characterization of George as "white" was entirely deliberate and not based on his own racial construct -- whatever that might be in his non-professional life.

and thanks, again, for the respectful post. :)

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/01/31/do-blacks-and-hispanics-get-along/

Well, in terms of the study, I'm not sure what the respondents were asked and whether they identified Hispanics by sight or were simply asked how they viewed Hispanics. Some of my African American friends who grew up in heavily black neighborhoods say they didn't grow up distinguishing between different ethnicities of white people. I suppose that's less common today because the Latino population has grown.

But speaking just for myself, I don't think I would identify George Zimmerman as Latino (most Latinos I know don't like the "H" word, LOL), particularly not if I saw him in the dark. I guess if I were giving a police interview, I might say "possibly Latino"; but if I were making a comment to a friend on the phone, I'd probably describe him as "white".

Nova
05-19-2012, 08:43 PM
ITA. Zimmerman could end up spending a really long time in prison. He deserves a fair trial. And it is going to be very difficult for him to get one, considering the enormous publicity affecting the jury pool.

I find it odd that you write that. Based on reading here, I think it will be almost impossible to find a jury that will convict GZ unanimously.

(ETA Unless GZ' statements are so contradictory that he loses all credibility. I'm assuming they aren't that bad, since he wasn't arrested that first night or the following day.)

jjenny
05-19-2012, 08:46 PM
I find it odd that you write that. Based on reading here, I think it will be almost impossible to find a jury that will convict GZ unanimously.

(ETA Unless GZ' statements are so contradictory that he loses all credibility. I'm assuming they aren't that bad, since he wasn't arrested that first night or the following day.)

You never know what the jury is going to do and certainly can not base it on what we are talking about here.

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 08:55 PM
IMO, I think her story has enough questions around it that I think she's going to get torn apart in a deposition/on the stand. It doesn't help that she is the only one testifying to things that only she heard. There are no other witnesses that can collaborate the start of the fight.

If her parents didn't want her involved, that is why, imo. Yes, she will be torn apart on the stand. Hopefully that will cause the jury to sympathize with her. I think she will do well, and help to convict GZ.

CathyinTexas
05-19-2012, 08:59 PM
I was referring to statements that she made in the recording. Was it edited or cut up before release?

I definitely noticed one issue between what Crump said and her testimony. She clearly says he was running, yet Crump had said that she said TM refused to run and that she was trying to get him to run. Am I missing something there?

He ran when she told him to run. Stopped running, out of breath, thought he lost him, then saw him again. She told him to run again and he said no because he was almost to his Dad's right before GZ confronted him.