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View Full Version : The Kel Tec PF9 Handgun and Firearm Law Thread


RANCH
05-17-2012, 09:55 PM
This thread is for discussion about the handgun used by George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Anything related to firearms in this case should be posted here.

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 10:05 PM
This thread is for discussion about the handgun used by George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Anything related to firearms in this case should be posted here.

Many of you carry or are handgun experts. I'm curious about all the talk relating to the possibility of GZ's gun recoiling. Does that happen very often? I've done some web searches and can't find anything difinitive either way.

If there was recoil, wouldn't there have been GSR on GZ's face?

RANCH
05-17-2012, 10:19 PM
Many of you carry or are handgun experts. I'm curious about all the talk relating to the possibility of GZ's gun recoiling. Does that happen very often? I've done some web searches and can't find anything difinitive either way.

If there was recoil, wouldn't there have been GSR on GZ's face?

I'm not sure what you mean by recoiling. Every gun produces recoil when fired. It's physics. Every action has a equal reaction.

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions.

There could be Gun Shot Residue (GSR) on GZ's face but we know he was the shooter so I don't know if it matters if he did.

Newton's laws of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 10:29 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by recoiling. Every gun produces recoil when fired. It's physics. Every action has a equal reaction.



There could be Gun Shot Residue (GSR) on GZ's face but we know he was the shooter so I don't know if it matters if he did.

Newton's laws of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion)

Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?

RANCH
05-17-2012, 10:29 PM
http://keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

The Kel-Tec PF9 is a DAO pistol. Double action only means when you pull the trigger, your cocking and releasing the hammer with one pull of the trigger.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?

He would have had to hold his weapon less than 3 inches away from his nose for the injuries to occur. Not very likely given that he was TRAINED on how to use his weapon.

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 10:32 PM
He would have had to hold his weapon less than 3 inches away from his nose for the injuries to occur. Not very likely given that he was TRAINED on how to use his weapon.

AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?

RANCH
05-17-2012, 10:35 PM
Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?

I've seen that suggestion myself. I really don't think that GZ's nose injury was from the slide of his gun hitting him. If his nose injury was only a cut from the sharp edges of the slide then maybe.

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 10:37 PM
AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?

That's the difference from just loading and firing a weapon and being trained. When you are trained they teach you about recoil. They teach you the various moving and non-moving parts of the firearm. In fact, when I was learning how to shoot my (first weapon) Baretta 9mm they made sure to express greatly that I didn't lay my thumb on or near the slide because the gun could very well "chop it off" (their exact words to me). It's not very likely that Mr. Zimmerman would've forgotten something like that.

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 10:41 PM
That's the difference from just loading and firing a weapon and being trained. When you are trained they teach you about recoil. They teach you the various moving and non-moving parts of the firearm. In fact, when I was learning how to shoot my (first weapon) Baretta 9mm they made sure to express greatly that I didn't lay my thumb on or near the slide because the gun could very well "chop it off" (their exact words to me). It's not very likely that Mr. Zimmerman would've forgotten something like that.

Thanks! My only experience with recoil was with a shotgun that left my shoulder looking like an Arizona sunrise for about 2 weeks. Handguns were different but I was closely supervised.

People who don't really know what they're doing should not handle guns of any type.

RANCH
05-17-2012, 10:49 PM
In the discovery just released I saw that the shell casing was marked 9mm Luger S&B and that all rounds were accounted for. 6 live rounds in the magazine, 1 live round from the chamber of the gun, and 1 spent casing. The Kel Tec PF9 has a magazine capacity of 7 plus one in the chamber.

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/51lslk0d4w1lwcso/images/20-65f0a7f05c.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlxcY2SjKIDhTymz7lpPPbPLHxUGxM2 jmL7KX5uZpnA6DMnDyYRg

AJ Noiter
05-17-2012, 11:13 PM
Thanks! My only experience with recoil was with a shotgun that left my shoulder looking like an Arizona sunrise for about 2 weeks. Handguns were different but I was closely supervised.

People who don't really know what they're doing should not handle guns of any type.

I'm nit-picking (mostly being silly in doing so) here but how do you learn what you're doing if you don't handle them?

RANCH
05-17-2012, 11:25 PM
Here's an animation of the Kel-Tec PF9. Notice how the hammer returns to the "uncocked" position after firing making this gun a DAO handgun.

Animation of Kel Tec PF 9 Pistol Function - YouTube

jaded cat
05-17-2012, 11:47 PM
I'm nit-picking (mostly being silly in doing so) here but how do you learn what you're doing if you don't handle them?

Not nit-picky at all. I meant unsupervised or supervised by people who shouldn't be tying their shoes, much less letting or telling someone else how to handle a gun. I'm much better with a shotgun, that I have confidence in. Small arms, not so much. Up thread the word "trained" was used and rightly so. Large property or backyard shooting galleries are not the same as a qualified gun range.

Reality Orlando
05-18-2012, 12:48 AM
AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?

Here's the thing. From what I see GZ's holster would be an inside the pants, holster set up to wear on the right side. When you draw from that type of holster, you are usually drawing from anywhere on your right side to the right side of your back. I just don't see it getting near his face, especially if he was panicked and had someone on top of him punching him. I would think he would fire as soon as he got the gun into "mass" range.

RANCH
05-21-2012, 09:30 AM
I'm just asking this question because I know nothing about guns and shooting them. Would GZ have less GSR on him if his arm was extended and his elbow was locked???? jmo
I would imagine that testing of GZ's gun would determine how far back GSR could travel. A semi-auto pistol like the Kel-Tec PF9 should produce little rearward GSR. When the gun is in locked into battery and ready to fire, it's sealed so the burning propellant pushes the bullet out the barrel. Gun designers don't want that stuff coming back into the shooters face. My guess is that the GSR wouldn't travel very far back beyond a persons wrist. JMO.

whateva
05-21-2012, 10:15 AM
to the original post and folllow ons re: GZ, gun, concealment, residue, recoil

gun and carry :
That model gun is very small, intended to be pocket-able... so he could have had it concealed in waistband, pocket, inside waistband holster, etc... but it is most likely it was in a pocket because he no doubt bought the gun for it's compactness and ability to easily conceal, giving up other desirable features like larger magazine capacity and accuracy...

CCW issues, did GZ have the gun drawn?:
very unlikely, there is a mandatory 36 month incarceration for 'display' in Florida that all CCW classes drill repeatedly into students.... believe me, he knew he was looking at 3 years in prison if he drew it without very very good reason. That doesn't eliminate the possibility that he was simply crazy, but calling 911, knowing LEOs were a couple of minutes away, and displaying would have simply been insane...

firing of the gun:
I agree with the previous poster and would think that anyone with any sort of training in that scenario with a 6'+ football player mounted on him beating him would have struggled to get the gun out, then would have fired as soon as he got anywhere near a body hit, where he was relatively sure the round wouldn't have 'gone to background' meaning missed TM and possibly hurt someone else...

recoil, could it have caused injury to GZ?:
with a very deep level of experience, I would describe the possibility as very near impossible.... modern semi automatic handguns of that type have very limited recoil... especially in that caliber... 9mm luger is a small charge, very easy to fire and control round... to break his nose, the rear of the gun would have had to be very nearly physically in contact with his nose... a shooter holding the gun completely limply from 6 inches away from his nose and firing it probably would only see 1-2 inches of recoil, probably less... they were evidently struggling with the gun, so in my mind it would be much more likely that TM smacked him in the face with it, even on the incredibly small chance that it caused the injury in the first place...

at the very beginning of this video you see live firing of the Kel Tec PF9: note the amount of recoil... practically zero backward... about 1 inch muzzle rise.... just about anyone firing it would experience the same recoil because fo the grip / trigger force required to fire...
PF9 Kel-Tec - YouTube

various released evidence on ballistics and mortality:
while not an ME, I would note that the ME described the range as intermediate while the clothing reports said stippling etc indicating a contact shot... that all makes sense as the round penetrated at least the hoodie and shirt prior to entrance lowering the round energy dramatically and isolating the body from close range gunshot effects from gunpowder etc. so I don't see any inconsistency in the ME report vs. GZ and witnesses reports of a contact shot while TM was on top of him....

residue:
they both had jackets on, were struggling, etc. so there are a lot of variables... but in general, exposed skin on both of their faces, hands, and their clothing should have had significant amounts of GSR regardless of proximity... but I will add that a shot near either of their faces, meaning within about 4-5 inches, would have likely embedded powder particles in their skin, would have shown up on the ME and police reports, so I very much doubt an 'up high' type of shot occurred.....

LambChop
05-21-2012, 10:48 AM
GZ carried his gun in his waistband which is in the police report.

Also there was no DNA or fingerprints of TM's on the gun. There was no struggle apparent for the gun by TM from what is reported. jmo

whateva
05-21-2012, 11:12 AM
agreed... forgot about the waistband report....

I would disagree that simply because there was no DNA or prints on the gun that there wasn't a struggle for it.. it is small enough to be substantively covered by Gs hand... could have been significantly 'wiped' by subsequent handling by G and police originally responding etc. but it does provide some evidence that T didn't have his fingertips directly on suitable surfaces of the gun that would retain a print....

whateva
05-21-2012, 11:36 AM
bump added youtube to my post to illustrate recoil of the 9mm PF9

rossva
05-21-2012, 02:47 PM
Thread this was posted on was closed for going OT, but I think it is appropriate for this topic. GSR does apply to the handgun.


Actually, peeing on your hands does quite the opposite.

"Chemical analysis looks closely for byproducts of the burning of primer and gun powder. Specifically, forensic scientists look for the metals lead, antimony, and barium. The Q-tip or filter paper is then treated with a solution of diphenylamine, a chemical that interacts with metals by producing a color change. The test is positive if the color blue is produced. However, this test could be a false-positive result. Nitrogen-containing compounds such as fertilizer, tobacco, cosmetics, and urine can also interact with the amino group of diphenylamine to contribute to this false-positive."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/917279

Also, iirc, the OP also stated (didn't save entire post, so I may be wrong here) that the GHSR test wasn't done until 4 hours later.

"GSR testing must be conducted right away after a gun is fired because GSR tends to fade away quickly and usually disappears after approximately two hours."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/917279




Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel
It is not a big deal but I think getting pee on your hands nullifies a GSR test as far as evidence goes. I think that is one reason they usually do them fast.

ariesgodofwar
05-21-2012, 03:42 PM
"GSR testing must be conducted right away after a gun is fired because GSR tends to fade away quickly and usually disappears after approximately two hours."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/917279


The above is inaccurate. Here is an actual scientific study on the average detectability of GSR: http://science.kennesaw.edu/~cdockery/docs/applied_spectroscopy_62%2811%29.pdf

Conclusion was detection was still possible an average of 5.27 Days after firing

ariesgodofwar
05-21-2012, 03:49 PM
Thread this was posted on was closed for going OT, but I think it is appropriate for this topic. GSR does apply to the handgun.


Actually, peeing on your hands does quite the opposite.

"Chemical analysis looks closely for byproducts of the burning of primer and gun powder. Specifically, forensic scientists look for the metals lead, antimony, and barium. The Q-tip or filter paper is then treated with a solution of diphenylamine, a chemical that interacts with metals by producing a color change. The test is positive if the color blue is produced. However, this test could be a false-positive result. Nitrogen-containing compounds such as fertilizer, tobacco, cosmetics, and urine can also interact with the amino group of diphenylamine to contribute to this false-positive."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/917279


Also not true, modern GSR tests are no longer Chemical Assay (unless they are the quick tests), they use LIBS-Laser Induced Breakdown Spectogrophy. See: http://science.kennesaw.edu/~cdockery/docs/applied_spectroscopy_62%2811%29.pdf

The swipe test may be organic based, but current tests actually test for non organic metal molecules such as Antimony, Bismuth, and a few other metals depending (Barium, Lead). The Chemical Assay tests are very old (1950s-60s science) and were very prone to false positive.

In any case, George admits to firing the gun, so it is a non-issue.

A poster talked about prints, the only conclusive prints were Georges on the Grip and the prints on the slide were the only other prints found, but were inconclusive, so therefore, I am not sure one could definitively say there was no struggle for the weapon for certain. I think the inconclusive result for prints on the slide is basically a "maybe".

ariesgodofwar
05-21-2012, 03:55 PM
He would have had to hold his weapon less than 3 inches away from his nose for the injuries to occur. Not very likely given that he was TRAINED on how to use his weapon.

^This, and the fact that if a firearm discharged 3 inches from GZ's face, at minimum, his ear drums would be perforated, and possibly completely blown out. GZ would have been very disoriented and have a great deal of trouble hearing anything. While, there was talk of him being disoriented, there is nothing I have seen to indicate that he had any hearing issues as a result, which you would see in such a close range discharge near the ears without hearing protection.

RANCH
05-21-2012, 04:12 PM
Also not true, modern GSR tests are no longer Chemical Assay (unless they are the quick tests), they use LIBS-Laser Induced Breakdown Spectogrophy. See: http://science.kennesaw.edu/~cdockery/docs/applied_spectroscopy_62%2811%29.pdf

The swipe test may be organic based, but current tests actually test for non organic metal molecules such as Antimony, Bismuth, and a few other metals depending (Barium, Lead). The Chemical Assay tests are very old (1950s-60s science) and were very prone to false positive.

In any case, George admits to firing the gun, so it is a non-issue.

A poster talked about prints, the only conclusive prints were Georges on the Grip and the prints on the slide were the only other prints found, but were inconclusive, so therefore, I am not sure one could definitively say there was no struggle for the weapon for certain. I think the inconclusive result for prints on the slide is basically a "maybe".
Thanks for the link Aries. It looks like the FDLE used a scanning electron microscope (SEM) to test GZ for GSR.
http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/4mzzx3hghs1lwcso/images/117-e1daf4a04a.jpg

Page 117
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

RANCH
05-24-2012, 01:44 AM
And let's not forget, using hollow point bullets in order to further ensure a kill.
I've seen a lot of post's about hollow point bullets being used by GZ. I'm curious why people believe that these bullets are somehow magical in nature, giving the person who possesses them a more evil and sinister persona.

If GZ used "Full Metal Jacket" bullets would his persona be viewed differently?

rotterdam
05-24-2012, 04:27 PM
I've seen a lot of post's about hollow point bullets being used by GZ. I'm curious why people believe that these bullets are somehow magical in nature, giving the person who possesses them a more evil and sinister persona.

If GZ used "Full Metal Jacket" bullets would his persona be viewed differently?

I do not think it makes a responsible gun owner evil. Most gun owners hope they never ever have to kill a person IMO. And when in real peril for yourself or loved ones, hollow points make sense. They have ultimate stopping power and are less likely to accidentally hit a second person since they quite often remain lodged in the body, as evidenced by Trayvon.

If I would be working in a type of store that is high on the wish list for robberies, it would be my bullet of choice. Face it, if you ever are forced to shoot at somebody(and I hope you never will), you generally shoot to kill, not to maim. If you only want to maim or frighten , you probably should not be shooting at all .All IMO.