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View Full Version : Canada - Man who decapitated, ate fellow bus passenger may leave hospital grounds



wfgodot
05-18-2012, 05:29 PM
I think many of us will remember this Canadian case as, once heard about, it's impossible to forget.

Cannibal allowed to leave mental hospital for a stroll, just four years after he beheaded and ate sleeping bus passenger (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146382/Schizophrenic-beheaded-CANNIBALIZED-sleeping-bus-rider-allowed-leave-mental-hospital--escort.html) (Daily Mail)

A man who beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Canada four years ago won his bid to leave the grounds of the mental hospital where he has been kept, a criminal review board ruled on Thursday.

The Criminal Code review board said Vince Li's treatment team may grant him short escorted trips into Selkirk, Manitoba. The review board said the passes will start at 30 minutes and increase incrementally to a maximum of full days.
---
At Li’s trial in March of 2009, a judge was told that he was an untreated schizophrenic who was suffering from auditory hallucinations commanding him to kill [carnival worker Tim ] McLean, a stranger.

On Thursday, the board said the passes should only be granted if Li's treatment team believes his condition is stable and that it would be ‘appropriate and safe for him to leave the locked ward.’

He will have to be escorted at all times by a nurse and a peace officer who will be wearing street clothes to avoid drawing attention to LI.
---
much more, with pictures, at Daily Mail link above

badhorsie
05-18-2012, 05:45 PM
This guy has crossed a barrier, I am a mental health nurse and I am sorry, IMO he should be treated with compassion but never be free

boston_baby
05-18-2012, 05:57 PM
wow, good thing not drawing attention to him is apparently among the biggest priorities...

That "person" should not see the light of day except through bars ever again.

Nova
05-18-2012, 06:18 PM
This guy has crossed a barrier, I am a mental health nurse and I am sorry, IMO he should be treated with compassion but never be free

The above is so well put, IMO. I too have no interest in punishing someone who acted out of mental illness. That doesn't mean I trust the psychiatric profession to know with any certainty whether the patient is sufficiently medicated to no longer be a threat.

katydid23
05-18-2012, 06:21 PM
Once someone has shown themselves to be dangerous enough, that they could decapitate a stranger and begin eating him, for no reason, :eek::eek::eek: ---Sorry, but they should not be walking around free anymore.

crystalgenie
05-18-2012, 06:27 PM
Sounds like Washington ... They used to take the criminally insane to carnivals and all kinds of cute outings up until a couple of years ago and they lost one. He escaped and thank God and all the police that caught him 3 days later.

Woodland
05-18-2012, 07:31 PM
I would like to see these 'treatments teams' (those suggesting and authorizing escorted passes for now) held criminally responsible if their 'ideas' don't pan out in the short or long term and he, or others with similar illnesses kill again. To be able to sue them in civil court would make the treatment teams look harder at their own actions. It's not a system failure if he fails to take his meds in the future when not escorted.

redheadedgal
05-18-2012, 08:28 PM
i was horrified when this happened... and i feel these escorted visits off premises are a slap in the face to mclean and his family ::shakes head::

brighidin
05-19-2012, 01:42 AM
I live about 40 minutes from where he is held. While I don't think mentally ill people should be institutionalized as they were in decades past, I don't agree with the not criminally responsible (NCR) designation. I think it is fine for him to take walks around the Selkirk mental hospital, but i don't think he should be allowed out into the community, even with a guard, nor do I think he should ever be set free. Unfortunately it looks like the last two will probably happen at some point.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/some-freedom-for-model-patient-li-152001055.html
" He has been diagnosed as having a 0.8 per cent chance of violently reoffending in the next decade." Really? since when can psychiatrists pinpoint this with such accuracy. perhaps they should get jobs as Vegas oddsmakers.

Of course he is doing fine now: he is in a secure facility and has to take his medication. Once he is deemed cured, he will be released. Who will ensure he takes his medication, then? I think it is great that, as stated in the above article, he has improved his English and has taken occupational training. Nevertheless, I agree with the mother of Tim McLean (the victim) that NCR designated people should be kept in hospital facilities indefinitely.

Soulmagent
05-20-2012, 01:44 AM
I think the 0.8 percent chance of him reoffending is to high to risk letting him out.

I have zero percent chance of decapitating a person . I have a 0.8 percent chance of commiting a violent crime. I say that because I could end up in a position to react or overact do to head injury or something . My percent might be even higher who knows. I am not incapable of it I am sure. I slapped my ex husband and might reoffend.

His has to be much higher than mine. This is insane. I remember how he held up the mans head and showed it to the LE. 0.8 ... No way.

Lately I find myself getting really mad about these kinds of things.

gitana1
05-20-2012, 01:59 AM
I would like to see these 'treatments teams' (those suggesting and authorizing escorted passes for now) held criminally responsible if their 'ideas' don't pan out in the short or long term and he, or others with similar illnesses kill again. To be able to sue them in civil court would make the treatment teams look harder at their own actions. It's not a system failure if he fails to take his meds in the future when not escorted.


I live about 40 minutes from where he is held. While I don't think mentally ill people should be institutionalized as they were in decades past, I don't agree with the not criminally responsible (NCR) designation. I think it is fine for him to take walks around the Selkirk mental hospital, but i don't think he should be allowed out into the community, even with a guard, nor do I think he should ever be set free. Unfortunately it looks like the last two will probably happen at some point.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/some-freedom-for-model-patient-li-152001055.html
" He has been diagnosed as having a 0.8 per cent chance of violently reoffending in the next decade." Really? since when can psychiatrists pinpoint this with such accuracy. perhaps they should get jobs as Vegas oddsmakers.

Of course he is doing fine now: he is in a secure facility and has to take his medication. Once he is deemed cured, he will be released. Who will ensure he takes his medication, then? I think it is great that, as stated in the above article, he has improved his English and has taken occupational training. Nevertheless, I agree with the mother of Tim McLean (the victim) that NCR designated people should be kept in hospital facilities indefinitely.

I agree with everyone. Especially love these posts.

This is insane. It is very hard to keep schizophrenics in treatment. Besides, he ate a person. Come on!

revampz
05-20-2012, 02:00 AM
I'm sorry, I really dont care if he is mentally ill....because if that is the argument what about people who "lose it" or snap so to say and kill someone, you could argue that that is also a mental breakdown, because it is...

This guy has killed someone, that innocent person will never get the chance to see the light of day let alone a hospital......no keep him in forever, medicated or not.

drip~drop
05-20-2012, 04:32 PM
Geez. Good thing all he did was murder, decapitate and eat a poor guy.
A few years locked away. All is well, he can go for walkies.

Good thing it was't a doobie he was caught with. He
could still be under the jail.

Sleuthster
05-20-2012, 04:50 PM
Geez. Good thing all he did was murder, decapitate and eat a poor guy.
A few years locked away. All is well, he can go for walkies.

Good thing it was't a doobie he was caught with. He
could still be under the jail.
:floorlaugh:

LadyL
05-20-2012, 05:44 PM
he murdered someone

he needs to be kept locked up for more than 3 years, mentally ill or not

AbbieNormal
05-21-2012, 09:26 AM
Once someone has shown themselves to be dangerous enough, that they could decapitate a stranger and begin eating him, for no reason, :eek::eek::eek: ---Sorry, but they should not be walking around free anymore.

Anyone whose mind can "go there" to decapitate someone and EAT parts of him, I dunno...I wouldn't want him released anywhere near us, thats for sure.
Those crimes are so horrendous, I remember the way the newscaster told the crime on, TV, at first they put it delicately but after the first day or so they were reporting it will full gore in descriptions. He needs to stay in jail, forever if possible. Or stay @ mental hospital. Either way he should not be among people...whose to say the same compulsion to kill won't hit him again? I'm sorry, I think that these people cannot be rehabilitated. Ever. JMO

wfgodot
05-23-2012, 05:00 PM
Daily Mail follows up:

Man who beheaded and cannibalised fellow passenger on Greyhound bus thought he was attacking an alien (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2148554/Man-beheaded-cannibalised-fellow-passenger-Greyhound-bus-thought-attacking-alien.html)

A Chinese immigrant who beheaded and cannibalised a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus thought he was on a mission from God to kill an alien, according to a mental health worker who interviewed him.
---
According to [Chris Summerville, head of the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society]'s transcript, Li recognises that people fear him.

'I understand people are scared because of my behaviour on the Greyhound bus. I am not at risk for anybody. I don't believe in aliens. I don't hear voices,' Mr Summerville quoted Li as saying.

'I take my medication... every day. I am glad to take it. I don't have any weird voices any more.'
---
much more, with pictures, at DM link above

drip~drop
05-23-2012, 06:16 PM
I agree with everyone. Especially love these posts.

This is insane. It is very hard to keep schizophrenics in treatment. Besides, he ate a person. Come on!

There's no going back. No re-dos. It's complete and finished.
There is no way this monster can be set free. I can almost guarantee you that if his meds made him gain weight, feel funny or 1000 other things, he won't ever take another on his own again.

Let whoever would let him free, keep him as a guest in their home.
Just don't ask what's for dinner if he cooks.
:puke" (hmmmm that was P U K E )

HMSHood
05-23-2012, 10:30 PM
I'm sorry, I really dont care if he is mentally ill....because if that is the argument what about people who "lose it" or snap so to say and kill someone, you could argue that that is also a mental breakdown, because it is...

This guy has killed someone, that innocent person will never get the chance to see the light of day let alone a hospital......no keep him in forever, medicated or not.

If he is mentally ill, he should be locked up for good.

katydid23
05-23-2012, 10:40 PM
If he is doing well there, taking his meds, not hearing voices anymore, not seeing aliens, then he should happily live his life, there among his friends and his health workers. Because, as mentioned by others, once he gets too much freedom, he will probably start skipping his meds. And those voices will reappear...:eek:

wfgodot
05-23-2012, 10:45 PM
While his walks outside the ground would be (at least initially) in the company of a nurse and a peace officer, I'd be worried he'd get the drop on them and skedaddle.

While I do understand why authorities may okay such a walk, I agree with badhorsie (above), that, after crossing the barrier that he did, he should never be free - even if that freedom means being accompanied by a pair of professionals.

brighidin
05-24-2012, 12:15 AM
While his walks outside the ground would be (at least initially) in the company of a nurse and a peace officer, I'd be worried he'd get the drop on them and skedaddle.

While I do understand why authorities may okay such a walk, I agree with badhorsie (above), that, after crossing the barrier that he did, he should never be free - even if that freedom means being accompanied by a pair of professionals.

He will probably be set free within the next few years. Most who are found NCR are not held for very long.

i don't think he was a monster. I understand that he was a paranoid schizophrenic. I think he will take his meds when he is in the hospital. The way I understand it, is that when he is 'freed' from the hospital in Selkirk, Manitoba his medicine intake will be monitored. However, the problem is that if he moves to another province, he will most likely fall through the cracks because health care is a provincial power and there isn't any sort of meaningful system of communication or surveillance between the provinces.

Li was taking medication for schizophrenia before and he had been hospitalized before, but he left that province and there was no one, or nothing, to keep tabs on him.

I think mental illness can be controlled and people can absolutely live meaningful, productive lives. The way the NCR laws are set up seem to suggest that once a person's mental illness is under control they are seen as cured. That is not right. IMO

Mental health advocates keep blaming the media for sensationalizing this murder and they keep stating that Vince Li is not a threat to the public. I do not agree with that. As I said previously, I am glad that we have moved away from wholesale institutionalization but, sadly, I fear that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Vince Li is a threat to public safety because he viciously killed someone and there is no way to ensure that he takes his medication everyday for the rest of his life.

Carol de Delley, the victim's mother has commented publicly that she has compassion for people with mental illnesses, but believes that if they commit horrific crimes, like Li did, they should be held indefinitely, or at least for a minimum period of time.
http://www.timslaw.ca/politicans/

Soulmagent
05-24-2012, 09:08 PM
Daily Mail follows up:

Man who beheaded and cannibalised fellow passenger on Greyhound bus thought he was attacking an alien (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2148554/Man-beheaded-cannibalised-fellow-passenger-Greyhound-bus-thought-attacking-alien.html)

much more, with pictures, at DM link above

God told him to kill an alien ,but that doesnt explain why he canniblised him.

Blondie in Spokane
05-10-2015, 11:31 PM
Mother of man beheaded on Greyhound bus speaks out as it's announced killer might be approved for community release

Vince Li, now 46, killed Tim McLean, 22, on a bus to Winnepeg in 2008

But Li was found not criminally responsible for stabbing, mutilating and beheading, McLean and was confined to Selkirk psychiatric institution

Li was suffering from untreated schizophrenia at the time of beheading

McLean's parents received letter saying Li could be granted overnight trips to stay at a group home

Letter said that the overnight outings to group homes could create a 'gradual transition to reside there'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3076080/Greyhound-beheading-victim-s-mother-speaks-s-announced-killer-approved-community-release.html

ElleElle
05-10-2015, 11:35 PM
Mother of man beheaded on Greyhound bus speaks out as it's announced killer might be approved for community release

Vince Li, now 46, killed Tim McLean, 22, on a bus to Winnepeg in 2008

But Li was found not criminally responsible for stabbing, mutilating and beheading, McLean and was confined to Selkirk psychiatric institution

Li was suffering from untreated schizophrenia at the time of beheading

McLean's parents received letter saying Li could be granted overnight trips to stay at a group home

Letter said that the overnight outings to group homes could create a 'gradual transition to reside there'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3076080/Greyhound-beheading-victim-s-mother-speaks-s-announced-killer-approved-community-release.html

This is absolutely insane. And to announce it on Mother's Day. I am beginning to wonder if they using Li as a human experiment.

jjenny
05-11-2015, 12:09 AM
This is absolutely insane. And to announce it on Mother's Day. I am beginning to wonder if they using Li as a human experiment.

This case perfectly demonstrates insanity of the insanity laws.
Insane one goes to the hospital, where doctors fill him full of meds.
When the insane one is on the meds, he could act more or less normal.
But what is going to happen in the real world when doctors decide the insane one is fine to be out and about?

Montjoy
05-11-2015, 12:26 AM
I really do understand the anger of the public here. I really do.

But I have to say that there is a bit of a difference between the understanding of laymen and professionals.

This isn't a situation where someone takes a sip of a beer and suggests, "Hey, let's let Vince Li out, just for laughs."

In fact, there are likely some legal questions that could be raised here about how any information about his case -- one which became a medical matter rather than a legal one some years ago -- has been made public. But that is probably another discussion altogether.

The doctors who made this decision did not do so casually or irresponsibly. They will bear the burden of whatever happens next, and they know that. But all things considered, I don't think that we'll ever hear about this person again.

I know that this is not going to be a popular opinion, but so be it; this is what we know from science and expertise, even though our emotions may say otherwise.

ElleElle
05-11-2015, 12:32 AM
This case perfectly demonstrates insanity of the insanity laws.
Insane one goes to the hospital, where doctors fill him full of meds.
When the insane one is on the meds, he could act more or less normal.
But what is going to happen in the real world when doctors decide the insane one is fine to be out and about?

To me, it is like a sick animal and needs to be put down. Insane? He was, and stopped taking his meds and look at the what happened. Granted, the chance of him ever killing again of even schizophrenics EVEN murdering (more likely to commit suicide) is very low.

My point it, sure he is treatable but I don't think he even deserves a chance. There are 1000's of people with mental disorders that have no treatment. Let's focus on them, not an animal. JMO.

jjenny
05-11-2015, 12:35 AM
I really do understand the anger of the public here. I really do.

But I have to say that there is a bit of a difference between the understanding of laymen and professionals.

This isn't a situation where someone takes a sip of a beer and suggests, "Hey, let's let Vince Li out, just for laughs."

In fact, there are likely some legal questions that could be raised here about how any information about his case -- one which became a medical matter rather than a legal one some years ago -- has been made public. But that is probably another discussion altogether.

The doctors who made this decision did not do so casually or irresponsibly. They will bear the burden of whatever happens next, and they know that. But all things considered, I don't think that we'll ever hear about this person again.

I know that this is not going to be a popular opinion, but so be it; this is what we know from science and expertise, even though our emotions may say otherwise.

Let these doctors house him in their house. Then I say fine, let him out. And if they are wrong and he eats them, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

Montjoy
05-11-2015, 12:56 AM
Let these doctors house him in their house. Then I say fine, let him out. And if they are wrong and he eats them, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

I would house him, myself, based only on what I've read. Would I be nervous? Sure -- but I'd also be nervous about any other lodger I might take in.

There is no evidence that he has 'eaten' anyone in the past. And it is indisputable that he is or was mentally ill. But the decision regarding his competence was not made casually, nor was it made by a layperson.

I do not expect many people to understand mental illness, but I do hope that many educated laypeople might understand that this is definitely a case of acute mental illness.

ElleElle
05-11-2015, 02:24 AM
I would house him, myself, based only on what I've read. Would I be nervous? Sure -- but I'd also be nervous about any other lodger I might take in.

There is no evidence that he has 'eaten' anyone in the past. And it is indisputable that he is or was mentally ill. But the decision regarding his competence was not made casually, nor was it made by a layperson.

I do not expect many people to understand mental illness, but I do hope that many educated laypeople might understand that this is definitely a case of acute mental illness.


"Chris Summerville, D.Min, CPRC
Executive Director

As a recipient of mental health services, family member and self-help provider, Chris is the captain of the MSS team. You can tell Chris is a different kind of Canadian by his southern accent. Born in Alabama, Chris moved to the land of the Maple Leaf in 1985. He has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental health service provider through 40 years of professional work in Canada and the U.S. Chris has dedicated his life "to enabling the walking wounded to become wounded healers." Although Chris regards schizophrenia as one of the most confounding and wounding illnesses a person can experience, he believes that recovery is more possible today than ever before. He has an earned doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary and is a Certified Psychosocial Rehabilitation Practitioner (CPRC) with the International Association of Psychosocial Rehabiltation Services.

He is also one of the eleven non-governmental board members of the Mental Health Commission of Canada as well as the CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada. "

http://www.mss.mb.ca/staff.php

Sounds to me like a psych with fluff, religious degrees.

Matic
05-11-2015, 02:58 AM
Indisputable as to whether or not he was mentally ill?
How many normal people do you know that just randomly stab someone, decapitate them and start eating parts of their body?
Sorry, I'm not picking up what your putting down.

katydid23
05-11-2015, 03:38 AM
I would house him, myself, based only on what I've read. Would I be nervous? Sure -- but I'd also be nervous about any other lodger I might take in.

There is no evidence that he has 'eaten' anyone in the past. And it is indisputable that he is or was mentally ill. But the decision regarding his competence was not made casually, nor was it made by a layperson.

I do not expect many people to understand mental illness, but I do hope that many educated laypeople might understand that this is definitely a case of acute mental illness.

There is 'mentally ill' and then there is 'profoundly mentally ill.' The level of grotesque violence that he acted out is beyond the beyond. That tells me that his 'voices' are not the usual ones that those with mental issues usually deal with.

My younger brother is a paranoid schizophrenic that has been in and out of group homes. When he is on his meds, which he USUALLY is, then he is relatively fine. HOWEVER, when he is out in the community, certain things sometimes trigger him. And the delusions kick in. He is not violent, but can be dangerous because he 'sees things' that are not there---like spiders and snakes on peoples faces. He will mistakenly 'grab' someone to try and save them from the snake.

And that is what worries me so much about this cannibal. If he gets triggered again, it will probably be a similar reaction on his part.
JMO

jjenny
05-11-2015, 07:04 AM
I would house him, myself, based only on what I've read. Would I be nervous? Sure -- but I'd also be nervous about any other lodger I might take in.

There is no evidence that he has 'eaten' anyone in the past. And it is indisputable that he is or was mentally ill. But the decision regarding his competence was not made casually, nor was it made by a layperson.

I do not expect many people to understand mental illness, but I do hope that many educated laypeople might understand that this is definitely a case of acute mental illness.

Maybe he can move to your house then. Because I sure wouldn't want him anywhere near mine.

jjenny
05-11-2015, 09:53 AM
There is 'mentally ill' and then there is 'profoundly mentally ill.' The level of grotesque violence that he acted out is beyond the beyond. That tells me that his 'voices' are not the usual ones that those with mental issues usually deal with.

My younger brother is a paranoid schizophrenic that has been in and out of group homes. When he is on his meds, which he USUALLY is, then he is relatively fine. HOWEVER, when he is out in the community, certain things sometimes trigger him. And the delusions kick in. He is not violent, but can be dangerous because he 'sees things' that are not there---like spiders and snakes on peoples faces. He will mistakenly 'grab' someone to try and save them from the snake.

And that is what worries me so much about this cannibal. If he gets triggered again, it will probably be a similar reaction on his part.
JMO

And this guy might be fine when he is loaded full of meds. But a lot of times mentally ill patients stopped taking meds, either because of side effects or they think they got all better and don't need the meds anymore.
Doctors observe him in a regulated environment where they monitor his med intake and think that he can be let lose on the real world?

Woodland
05-11-2015, 06:04 PM
I really do understand the anger of the public here. I really do.

But I have to say that there is a bit of a difference between the understanding of laymen and professionals.

This isn't a situation where someone takes a sip of a beer and suggests, "Hey, let's let Vince Li out, just for laughs."

In fact, there are likely some legal questions that could be raised here about how any information about his case -- one which became a medical matter rather than a legal one some years ago -- has been made public. But that is probably another discussion altogether.

The doctors who made this decision did not do so casually or irresponsibly. They will bear the burden of whatever happens next, and they know that. But all things considered, I don't think that we'll ever hear about this person again.

I know that this is not going to be a popular opinion, but so be it; this is what we know from science and expertise, even though our emotions may say otherwise.

BBM

With all due respect - imo there is no way those that made the decision to set this person free will bear any responsibility if and when things go wrong with this person in the future.

Do we know the names of the decision makers? If I could see those names in writing now, then maybe I would give a little credence to the decision. If their names are kept a secret from the public, I see nothing more than protecting a bunch of so-called professionals that stand up in court on a regular basis and give differing opinions on the same matter for money. In the mental health 'profession', there is never agreement what is wrong with a person or what the core problem is or what triggered a horrific action.

The public is not assured of a long term solution here. Jmo.