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View Full Version : Was Trayvon Martin involved in a Fight Video?



ariesgodofwar
05-22-2012, 04:29 PM
There has been much speculation as to whether or not the various videos from YouTube and elsewhere of what is claimed to be Trayvon Martin both refereeing as well as fighting on the internet, are actually him or not, and if so, how could they play into the ultimate adjudication of the case, if at all.

According to the Palm Beach Post: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/video-showing-teen-encouraging-others-to-fight-was-2365042.html


"Newly obtained video recorded before Martin's death shows the teenager encouraging others to fight. However, Martin's brother said Trayvon is not in the video.

And the Martin family lawyer said the video is just another attack on Martin’s character."

MayHaven
05-24-2012, 01:18 AM
Not a chance.
1) The youtube video was proven to not be him. No I don't have a link because it was removed

2) There was another video of kids boxing (with boxing gloves on)...and if anyone believes either of those kids are Trayvon, they need new glasses.

<Modsnip>

ariesgodofwar
05-24-2012, 01:25 AM
Not a chance.
1) The youtube video was proven to not be him. No I don't have a link because it was removed


Proven not to be him? The link above cites a denial by Jahvaris Fulton and Benjamin Crump, but I have seen no definitive proof, and in fact, have been involved in research which undeniably concluded quite the contrary. Can you please point me to where this was proven?

As for Victim's Rights, the accused has made an accusation that he was indeed attacked, ask such, if Trayvon was engaged in such activities, this could be exculpatory evidence, or introduce reasonable doubt if there was a propensity for physical violence.

JBean
05-24-2012, 01:38 AM
Neither of you can link your points of view at this time- so please leave it as your opinions.
To everyone-Please debate your opinions on this information but keep it civil.
Only warning, thanks.

IzzyBlanche
05-24-2012, 01:44 AM
<modsnip>

I don't see the term "Fight Club" used in that link, by the way. So a logical analogy would be "video of teens riding bicycles" = "was one of those teens involved in BMX Motocross."

<modsnip>

elementary
05-24-2012, 01:45 AM
Proven not to be him? The link above cites a denial by Jahvaris Fulton and Benjamin Crump, but I have seen no definitive proof, and in fact, have been involved in research which undeniably concluded quite the contrary. Can you please point me to where this was proven?

As for Victim's Rights, the accused has made an accusation that he was indeed attacked, ask such, if Trayvon was engaged in such activities, this could be exculpatory evidence, or introduce reasonable doubt if there was a propensity for physical violence.

This tells us nothing. Where and what is your proof? And who will be able to verify that your proof is kosher?

JBean
05-24-2012, 01:51 AM
If there is no MSM confirmation that these videos are truly of Trayvon, and posters espousing opposing views cannot even post links backing up their respective positions, why is this discussion even being allowed in light of the following oft-linked WS rule?

Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.

Is this a rule here or isn't it?

And on what basis are exceptions made?
The OP is linked to discussion of an MSM article and the article says it is not him in the title.

>>Video showing teen encouraging others to fight was not Trayvon Martin, brother says

snip
Newly obtained video recorded before Martin's death shows the teenager encouraging others to fight. However, Martin's brother said Trayvon is not in the video.
And the Martin family lawyer said the video is just another attack on Martin’s character.
<<

elementary
05-24-2012, 01:55 AM
Neither of you can link your points of view at this time- so please leave it as your opinions.
To everyone-Please debate your opinions on this information but keep it civil.
Only warning, thanks.

Okay, I'm confused here. What is the information? What are the facts?
Are we debating something real or just indulging in total speculation about a victim and a minor? Is this just about rumours? I have no idea what this fight club thing is.

JBean
05-24-2012, 01:56 AM
Treat the topic with as much importance as you give it.
Personally I don;t give it any weight at this point. Doesn't mean others don't want to discuss the article from an MSM link.

Is it him? Does it matter if it is? Is it not him? Is this an unfair article? discuss it if you are so inclined.
I personally am not a fan of the topic so I probably won't discuss it- so decide for yourselves if you want to keep bumping it with comments or not click on it.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 08:03 AM
There has been much speculation as to whether or not the various videos from YouTube and elsewhere of what is claimed to be Trayvon Martin both refereeing as well as fighting on the internet, are actually him or not, and if so, how could they play into the ultimate adjudication of the case, if at all.

According to the Palm Beach Post: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/video-showing-teen-encouraging-others-to-fight-was-2365042.html

I don't see anything on the link??????

mikeysmommom
05-24-2012, 08:39 AM
There has been much speculation as to whether or not the various videos from YouTube and elsewhere of what is claimed to be Trayvon Martin both refereeing as well as fighting on the internet, are actually him or not, and if so, how could they play into the ultimate adjudication of the case, if at all.

According to the Palm Beach Post: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/video-showing-teen-encouraging-others-to-fight-was-2365042.html

I saw one of the films and not only was it trayvon IMO or it was his twin named the same name,he also was called by name.

ETA It was taken down as soon as it came out it was online.They have been erasing anything that makes him look like a thug or just like a 17 yr old IMO.If there is nothing to hide why hide it?Any of TM past will be found out and will be in the courtroom.At trial GZ lawyer will bring out what ever kid of kid TM was,that happens in court everyday.If in fact TM had scars on his hands and if they can prove he fought GZ lawyer has a right to bring it out in court.Whether we agree with it or not in a case like this one it does matter JMO.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 10:35 AM
It's because they didn't post the videos. The fight club videos were from that ridiculous blog The Conservative Tree House. It's not even him in the video, you can plainly see that the kid in the video isn't 5 feet 11 inches tall.

my opinion only

So the reason for there being no link is that the video is of minors other than TM and we're not suppose to engage in that type of sleuthing???? If we can't verify it why is it an issue when TM isn't on trial, well, as far as the State of Florida is concerned. jmo

ariesgodofwar
05-24-2012, 12:19 PM
It's because they didn't post the videos. The fight club videos were from that ridiculous blog The Conservative Tree House. It's not even him in the video, you can plainly see that the kid in the video isn't 5 feet 11 inches tall.

my opinion only

As far as I recall, they did initially post the video to the stories (and no I did not think to take a screenshot, but not sure it would matter in this case), and they were then removed and replaced with the stock content once the video was removed from the original hosting service on the Internet.

Note the subject of the video does not actually match the Title of the article. Both title and video embedded are about the case, but typically, editorial guidelines at most publications for Online Media would require that if you are talking about a subject, in this case a video, (especially one which the situation is "Is this or isn't this?" such to the extent you have to ask the question from the family, thus not readily apparent), that you would include the video, or specifically state why you are not (Graphic content, Trademark Infringement, etc.) Otherwise, your piece is as relevant as a piece titled "Beautiful Sunset over Galveston Bay witnessed last night" and then instead of a video or static photo of the Beautiful Sunset referred to in your article, you just post a picture of a Boat in the Bay, in the middle of the daytime (no sunset). Any reader would then say "Why did you tell me about a beautiful sunset and then not show me? I would like to see it, especially if I would think it is beautiful as well."

Coincidentally, the video was not an issue for the Internet Host from July 2011 when it was originally posted to the very day (almost an entire year afterwards) that the research indicating the irrefutable links to the original video were posted by a few blogs, one of which is considered a "major" blog. Could this be just coincidence? Could be, but personally, I doubt it.

As a result of that information that was published, the Palm Beach Post and WFTV responded to the information with the linked article. I assume that they believe there was at least compelling evidence enough to ask the question, because if it was obvious that it was not him, it would be like a reporter asking a man walking his German Shepard, if it was a Boston Terrier. Why did they do this? IMO, it is because they know that it will likely come into evidence, and they wanted to get ahead of it.

As for your statement about his height being 5'11", I have seen this mentioned many times and perhaps best discussed on another thread, but I thought the same thing, especially after seeing the 7-11 Video and some of the pictures posted of him. I was thinking that either the ME was wrong, or that people in Sanford, Fl appear to be abnormally short in stature compared to him.

Upon researching, I believe (IMO) the reason why his family initially claimed he was 6'2-6'3 and the ME claimed he was 71 inches (5'11), is because by the time the ME took the measurement, full rigor mortis had occurred, which makes it impossible to completely straighten the spine to get the same measurement as if one was alive and standing up. I would suggest the family's statement is more accurate as a result, but the easy way to confirm this, and they will likely come into evidence at some point I would guess, would be to obtain Trayvon's medical records. He played Football, and unless they do something strange in Florida, all programs I know of, be they "Pewee", JFL, or High School, all require players to have an annual physical and be medically cleared, so there should then obviously be a height measurement on his chart I would think.

beach
05-24-2012, 01:36 PM
Okay, here is the deal.

This video did exist at one time and the article does not refute that.

Per Crump's remarks snipped

And the Martin family lawyer said the video is just another attack on Martin’s character.

Trayvon's brother's remarks snipped

Newly obtained video recorded before Martin's death shows the teenager encouraging others to fight. However, Martin's brother said Trayvon is not in the video.

We are aware that his brother is denying it is Trayvon, however...keep in mind, people are denying a multitude of things attributed to Zimmerman too. Yet, we freely permit speculation about the credibility of those things. That speculation works both ways.

No one here is denying that Trayvon's death is a horrible, tragedy. However, it is obvious from the docs that have been released there was a physical altercation before Zimmerman fired the gun that killed Trayvon. GZ has never once denied shooting Trayvon. Though not formally claimed in court, it is OBVIOUS the defense is going to claim this is a case of self-defense.

The owners have known about this information for many weeks. It has been given it very careful consideration. They have spent hours carefully verifying the information. Rest assured, we have not permitted FAR more info than we are allowing here.

That said, this information is considered to be relevant as to the claims made by GZ - that he was attacked first. There is a huge point of debate over who initiated the physical altercation that eventually led to the shooting death of Trayvon. If Trayvon participated in fighting for whatever reason - be it sport or otherwise - that is relevant.

As to the complaints that TM is a minor - let's be honest here. Barely considered a minor, per the law. 17 yrs. old. We are not talking about a 12, 14 or even 15 yr. old sheltered minor kid here. He had plenty of life experiences here as the evidence indicates. It is dishonest to pretend otherwise OTOH, no one is insinutating that Trayvon was a bad, incorrigble teen who was predisposed to be anything less than a fine adult. No one is insinuating that he deserved to die at the young age of 17. He was simply a teen who was stumbling to find his way through....like almost all teens. By not permitting members to understand who Trayvon was by considering all of his qualities in a truthful light, would not be honest. He was an honor roll student too. Trayvon had a lot of good qualities. None of us are perfect and I guarantee none of us were close to perfect when we were 17 yrs. old. It is what it is and this discussion is permitted.



THAT ALL SAID - We understand that this topic will offend many here. Understandable. HOWEVER, if you fall into that category, I suggest you just ignore the discussion and don't even click on this thread.

Because what is NOT going to be tolerated are posts expressing their disgust or complaints about the discussion even being permitted here. Feel free to email the owners with those points of view. Any remarks like that posted here will result in a TO. No one is going to be permitted to derail a discussion for those who are interested in the topic.

DO NOT quote and/or respond to this post. It is not up for debate on this thread. Any questions need to be submitted via PM, or if you prefer, email the owners.

KateNY
05-24-2012, 02:31 PM
Gotta admit I was curious and nosed around. The video is still out there. I can't tell anything from it.

Had only heard about Fight Clubs...seems to be kinda like no-holds-barred- boxing?

Here's an article that discusses these clubs, for anyone else, like me...who had no clue..

Apparently not illegal, but seems like LE tho is trying to clamp down on those involving minors


hope it's ok to post, not related to this case
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2006-05-29-fight-club_x.htm

MENLO PARK, Calif. (AP) — They may sport love handles and Ivy League degrees, but every two weeks some Silicon Valley techies turn into vicious street brawlers in a real-life, underground fight club.

Karmady
05-24-2012, 02:47 PM
Gotta admit I was curious and nosed around. The video is still out there. I can't tell anything from it.

Had only heard about Fight Clubs...seems to be kinda like no-holds-barred- boxing?

Here's an article that discusses these clubs, for anyone else, like me...who had no clue..

Apparently not illegal, but seems like LE tho is trying to clamp down on those involving minors


hope it's ok to post, not related to this case
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2006-05-29-fight-club_x.htm

I'd seen a still from it before, but didn't watch. And I found it just now, too. Although practically the whole first page of links have been scrubbed. His name is very clearly heard (not sure how common Trayvon is, though), and I believe he can be seen in the later part. While it's hard for me to watch now, when I think about it it's absolutely no different than the after-school fights peeps had when I was in hs. Although if it is a *fight-club* type thing, I guess they are not as spontaneous??

LambChop
05-24-2012, 02:56 PM
I was referring to the other minors in the video. Could it have been pulled because of the others? TM is deceased so a video would not affect him but the other's who were in the video, if they were minors, it might. Plus the parents may not be too happy they are being involved. I'm just wondering why it was removed???? Anyone know? jmo

ariesgodofwar
05-24-2012, 03:18 PM
I was referring to the other minors in the video. Could it have been pulled because of the others? TM is deceased so a video would not affect him but the other's who were in the video, if they were minors, it might. Plus the parents may not be too happy they are being involved. I'm just wondering why it was removed???? Anyone know? jmo

No, the service that hosted it merely just said a "ToS Violation" in the error message. That said, there apparently was no ToS violation for the last year where it remained without issue. This particular service has hundreds of thousands of videos featuring minors engaged in criminal acts which are in many cases used as evidence in prosecutions (for those dumb enough to video themselves committing and posting on the Internet for all to see, as if Law Enforcement does not have access to the Internet.)

As for the minors specifically, I am not really sure the video was of the quality to identify any of them with any real specificity. The only name spoken the entire time, was Trayvon's, though there were 2 male names in a X vs Y format as the video title. That said, I was 18 for a while when I was in High School (though I emancipated at 17, but that is neither here nor there), this video obviously happened at the High School, so how is it that we know that all, or even some are necessarily minors? I guess I am just not sure what participants possibly being minors engaged in criminal activity which is relevant to the claims the defendant is making, has to do with the video being a ToS violation, or why it is an issue. I must be missing something here I guess....

vlpate
05-24-2012, 04:54 PM
I was referring to the other minors in the video. Could it have been pulled because of the others? TM is deceased so a video would not affect him but the other's who were in the video, if they were minors, it might. Plus the parents may not be too happy they are being involved. I'm just wondering why it was removed???? Anyone know? jmo

Probably for the same reason the twitter accounts were removed, they reflected upon Martin badly.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 05:07 PM
Probably for the same reason the twitter accounts were removed, they reflected upon Martin badly.

MSM has no problem reporting other informationi that "reflected badly" on TM. Why would this video be different? Unless they were afraid of a lawsuit from parents of the other boys involved? I do think boys fight (girls, too for that matter). They did when I was a teen so I don't think much has changed. And people use to pay big buck-a-roni's to sit front and center during a boxing match. jmo

Badlands
05-24-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't know what videos others have seen, but I've seen the one where someone calls Trayvon by name (it can still easily be found on Liveleak). However, Trayvon was neither fighting nor appeared to be refereeing in that video. About 30 seconds after the fight is over, the one presumed to be Travyon (and I can't tell if it's him or not) separates them from starting up again, but he doesn't look to be a referee (other than his striped shirt).

Karmady
05-24-2012, 05:26 PM
MSM has no problem reporting other informationi that "reflected badly" on TM. Why would this video be different? Unless they were afraid of a lawsuit from parents of the other boys involved? I do think boys fight (girls, too for that matter). They did when I was a teen so I don't think much has changed. And people use to pay big buck-a-roni's to sit front and center during a boxing match. jmo

It's not that it IS so bad or uncommon, it's just that it could be perceived that way, imo. This case is full of examples of relatively innocuous things that have been "misrepresented" to paint the most sympathetic picture of Trayvon and his family as possible. And, in the context of a case where the question of who was the physical aggressor is critical, Trayvon being involved in this kind of activity is certainly not the least of those, imo.

I can definitely see the family and their attorney not wanting this out there. I suppose it's possible that there was a different reason to pull it, but I think the far more likely explanation is that Crump and/or the family was responsible for it being taken down. If I'm honest, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing if it were my son. But, I can say, that if I knew he didn't have an aversion to fighting, I wouldn't claim that he did. From the video, though, all we can say is that, if it is Trayvon (which I do believe that it is), he was not averse to watching OTHERS fight. It remains to be seen whether he himself didn't mind participating. jmo

eta: It occurs to me that there may be others who are interested in the outcome of the case that may have flagged it to youtube. There are an awful lot of people out there with very strong feelings about it, and while I wouldn't get that involved at that level, others might. I mean just look at all of the people who comment on every news article, start fb pages and such -- and not only in this case, but lots of others.

jaded cat
05-24-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't know what videos others have seen, but I've seen the one where someone calls Trayvon by name (it can still easily be found on Liveleak). However, Trayvon was neither fighting not appeared to be refereeing in that video. About 30 seconds after the fight is over, the one presumed to be Travyon (and I can't tell if it's him or not) separates them from starting up again, but he doesn't look to be a referee (other than his striped shirt).

There is more than one black male named Trayvon, as we discovered after the FB issue. Also, one poster stated that since the cars in the video had front license plates, it probably wasn't in Florida. If no one can be identified facially in this video, then there is reasonable doubt it is TM.

The guys in the fight were also wearing boxing type gloves so it was not a spontaneous street brawl. If TM wasn't fighting or refereeing but tries to separate the two fighters, I can't see how this reflects badly on him.

Unless all the participants can be found and sign waivers, I don't see this video showing up in court.

Karmady
05-24-2012, 06:37 PM
There is more than one black male named Trayvon, as we discovered after the FB issue. Also, one poster stated that since the cars in the video had front license plates, it probably wasn't in Florida. If no one can be identified facially in this video, then there is reasonable doubt it is TM.

The guys in the fight were also wearing boxing type gloves so it was not a spontaneous street brawl. If TM wasn't fighting or refereeing but tries to separate the two fighters, I can't see how this reflects badly on him.

Unless all the participants can be found and sign waivers, I don't see this video showing up in court.

I think we must have seen a different video, or a different part of the same video. The boys fighting in the one I saw are not wearing boxing gloves and I think the participants, including Trayvon (if it's him) could be identified from it pretty easily. I don't know whether it will make it's way into the courtroom, but if it did, they would probably just blur out the faces of all the others. jmo

jjenny
05-24-2012, 07:37 PM
Just looking at the videos themselves, I can't make any conclusions. Videos are not of good quality and I can't make out the face.

flourish
05-24-2012, 11:14 PM
I watched two videos (both w/out sound). One with two youths sporting boxing gloves on what appeared to be a "breezeway" strip of grass between a sidewalk and a street. There wasn't a caption or description around the video box that I can recall except that it indicated the video was of TM fighting. There were other youths around, thought I can't say how many. The two blokes with the gloves then begin doing what I want to call "sparring," but I'm sure that isn't the exactly more correct word, but generally "light boxing." The video quality was decent. My first impression was the the boy in the lighter colored top could be TM, but then there wasn't any more good shots of his face, because they seemed to move away from the camera, and then circle around so that when they were closer to the camera again, the guy in the darker top's face was what I could see better. I thought the guy in the darker top did not resemble TM in any way.

The site where I found the second video was clearly more blatant about their feelings about who was who and what was what in the video, and stated that the youth in the striped shirt was TM. So unfortunately, I went in to this one with that message fresh in my mind, which I suppose was the point. Anyway, the video quality seemed worse than the first video, although it seemed to be a brighter time of day than the first video. From what I could tell, there was a group of teenagers on an asphalt or cement surface, and my impression was it was outside of a school or in a schoolyard. These youths were not wearing gloves. It appeared there were two of them fighting or again lightly boxing, only not as light as in the first video. After a little bit, it appeared that the youth in the striped shirt and another youth pulled the two fighting guys apart. At the end of the video, a guy without a shirt walked over near the striped shirt guy, and put up his hands as if he was proposing a fight with a third boy, wearing a light shirt, who was standing near the youth in striped shirt. Light-shirt wearing guy turned around and it looked like he was reaching towards his back collar to pull his shirt off in a way that for some reason females rarely ever do (sorry, tangent). Then the video ended.

In the first video, the by-standers for the most part weren't shown well enough to decipher clear faces, and as for the sparring duo, the youth in the lighter shirt's face was only seen very briefly, as was the others, although his was closer to the camera. I would guess that people who knew the people in the video well would be able to recognize the two wearing gloves by their faces as well as body shapes, stances, gestures, mannerisms, etc.

In the second video, again the by-standers weren't seen well. I would guess that people who knew all the participants well would be able to recognize the shirtless guy near the end of the video, possibly, and possibly the guy in the lighter shirt, but only because their faces were near the camera and their lighter complexions made their features easier to see in the grainy video, if that makes sense. However, I couldn't decipher the youth in the striped shirt's face well enough to even see if he resembled TM or not. I would guess that people who knew him well would be able to recognize whether or not it was him probably relying solely, or at least primarily, on body shape, stance, gestures, mannerisms, etc.

So if TM's brother states that TM is not the one in the striped shirt, I'm inclined to believe him as he was familiar with TM's body shape, stance, gestures, and mannerisms.

I don't know if these videos are or should be of any concern to the prosecution--my guess is no. The defense might latch onto one or both of them, and get the video "cleaned up" a bit, maybe use some facial-recognition software? But that sounds like a ton of expense for a defense team.

And really, for what? To show that TM had a possible propensity to engage in planned sparring/fighting with his peers? Because I surely don't see him on video alone and attacking a lone adult. Nor do I see any indication any of the guys leaving those fights were looking remotely as beat up as Ed Norton or Brad Pitt did in "Fight Club."

It seems I've heard tell that back when children played outside for long periods of time, often unsupervised, they'd engage in wrestling matches and the like. I'm pretty sure it still occurs sometimes these days. So basically, I'm choosing to with-hold judgement on whether or not TM is in either video, and also on, if he is, what, if anything that means to the case. In short, I'd like a lot more credible information about the videos.

IzzyBlanche
05-25-2012, 12:42 AM
I've read over this thread several times to make sure I didn't miss anything, but unless I am mistaken no one has provided links to the videos being discussed.

Would someone please do so? TIA.

vlpate
05-25-2012, 12:43 AM
The parents denied the twitter account too, until it was proved to be his.

"The parents denied their son’s link to a Twitter account, in which he purportedly tweeted about smoking marijuana and made derogatory comments about women. “It’s an account that there’s tweets even after he is dead,” LINK (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-28/news/31246265_1_zimmerman-fatal-shooting-twitter-account)

"By cross-referencing tweets from his account with those of people mentioned throughout, The Miami Herald was able to show the account was, in fact, Trayvon Martin’s." LINK (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/08/2738118/what-trayvon-martins-social-media.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy)

KateNY
05-25-2012, 12:56 AM
Izzy

It's on Live Leak