View Full Version : NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29
SoSueMe
05-18-2012, 11:30 AM
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Thread 1
Thread 2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170913&page=46)
Thread 3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171159&page=18)
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Thread 14 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173624&page=37)
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Thread 21 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8045871&posted=1#post8045871)
Thread 22
Thread 23
Thread 24
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Thread 26
Thread 27
Thread 28
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Kimster
05-22-2012, 10:05 AM
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05-27-2012, 11:26 AM
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06-17-2012, 10:10 AM
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imamaze
06-27-2012, 08:41 AM
Please continue here...
marlywings
06-27-2012, 08:49 AM
Gerard Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on Facebook, including Premier Campbell newman, since being arrested for murder of wife Allison
June 28, 2012 12:00AM
GERARD Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on his Facebook account since being put behind bars, including Premier Campbell Newman.
However, he still has 372 Facebook friends, including federal Liberal MPs Jane Prentice and Julie Bishop.
A spokeswoman for Mr Newman said the Premier's old Facebook profile, which has not been used since the election campaign ended, was shut down a couple of weeks ago.
"The closure of the profile means Mr Newman no longer has 'Facebook friends'," she said in a statement.
"Instead Mr Newman has a Facebook page, which anyone can like, with requests not requiring approval."
Prisoners cannot access the internet, but many with Facebook accounts get their family or friends to update their profiles.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-has-lost-13-friends-on-facebook-including-premier-campbell-newman-since-being-arrested-for-murder-of-wife-allison/story-e6freoof-1226410504650
annie46664
06-27-2012, 08:53 AM
Gerard Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on Facebook, including Premier Campbell newman, since being arrested for murder of wife Allison
June 28, 2012 12:00AM
GERARD Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on his Facebook account since being put behind bars, including Premier Campbell Newman.
However, he still has 372 Facebook friends, including federal Liberal MPs Jane Prentice and Julie Bishop.
A spokeswoman for Mr Newman said the Premier's old Facebook profile, which has not been used since the election campaign ended, was shut down a couple of weeks ago.
"The closure of the profile means Mr Newman no longer has 'Facebook friends'," she said in a statement.
"Instead Mr Newman has a Facebook page, which anyone can like, with requests not requiring approval."
Prisoners cannot access the internet, but many with Facebook accounts get their family or friends to update their profiles.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-has-lost-13-friends-on-facebook-including-premier-campbell-newman-since-being-arrested-for-murder-of-wife-allison/story-e6freoof-1226410504650
LUCKY NUMBER 13! :woohoo:
ActusReus
06-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Gerard Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on Facebook, including Premier Campbell newman, since being arrested for murder of wife Allison
June 28, 2012 12:00AM
GERARD Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on his Facebook account since being put behind bars, including Premier Campbell Newman.
However, he still has 372 Facebook friends, including federal Liberal MPs Jane Prentice and Julie Bishop.
A spokeswoman for Mr Newman said the Premier's old Facebook profile, which has not been used since the election campaign ended, was shut down a couple of weeks ago.
"The closure of the profile means Mr Newman no longer has 'Facebook friends'," she said in a statement.
"Instead Mr Newman has a Facebook page, which anyone can like, with requests not requiring approval."
Prisoners cannot access the internet, but many with Facebook accounts get their family or friends to update their profiles.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-has-lost-13-friends-on-facebook-including-premier-campbell-newman-since-being-arrested-for-murder-of-wife-allison/story-e6freoof-1226410504650
Must be a slow news day at the CM.......
marlywings
06-27-2012, 09:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure what was claimed by the defence EXACTLY?
June 22, 2012
Mr Davis said the marks on his client’s torso were related to a “caterpillar incident” and he had witness statements attesting to that.
Mr Davis said the only external injury noted in the report was a chip to the bottom left eye tooth.
Mr Davis used the lack of any other apparent injuries to question the allegation that investigators had found Mrs Baden-Clay’s blood in the boot of her husband’s car.
"There is no suggestion of any cuts, any wounds, from which she could bleed," he said, in reference to a police assertion that there was a luminol (a chemical which can react to show the presence of blood, among other fluids) reaction found in the car.
Mr Davis also said there was no supporting evidence submitted to the court that the luminol reaction was caused by the presence of blood
In applying for bail, Mr Davis cited his client’s strong ties to the business community as well as to the community where he lived as evidence Mr Baden-Clay would not flee the state before his trial was to begin.
He said despite “intense” media coverage of the case in the lead up to being charged by police, Mr Baden-Clay had not left the country.
Mr Davis had told the court Mr Baden-Clay had no valid passports and could provide a $500,000 surety
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/accused-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-denied-bail-20120622-20s73.html#ixzz1yzvAID1X
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:08 AM
Was there an earthquake in the previous thread and everybody took off??
marlywings
06-27-2012, 09:10 AM
Must be a slow news day at the CM.......
Yes I was expecting a little more than that tonight as they've been playing catch-up with the others last day or so.
marlywings
06-27-2012, 09:12 AM
Was there an earthquake in the previous thread and everybody took off??
Yep...your last comment in it was the cause of it I think...stillll laughin'..lol.
annie46664
06-27-2012, 09:13 AM
Pardon me :o but I don't fully grasp everything in the following CM report:
Baden-Clay is expected to be given protection status, which is only granted if they are assessed as "at risk of harm within the general prison population", have an intellectual disability or if charges relate to "serious offences". Well, he certainly qualifies here IMO! :giggle:
Upon entry, prisoners are issued with prison uniform - a green T-shirt, shorts, tracksuit pants, jumper and joggers.
Baden-Clay is not required to work in prison, but will be encouraged to participate "in some type of meaningful activity", such as cleaning or kitchen duties, horticulture work or maintenance. Nothing entirely NEW to him here given the morning of Allison's disappearance & when she went away to celebrate her 40th Birthday!
"If a remand prisoner chooses not to work, they must be paid an unemployment allowance - this is $1.30 a week. In addition, a hygiene allowance of $9.55 is payable per week," a QCS spokesman said. Here I'm confused ... forgive me guys ... but are they PAID to be dirty (i.e. not waste water etc.) ~ or must they PAY out of their own pockets (or borrowed funds / church donations or whatever) to be dirty? :what: Because even the MAX $8.45 won't cover the 'dirt'. "If employed, they are paid (depending on the job) from $2.80 to $8.45 per week."
:cowcouch:
From the new CM article.
"If a remand prisoner chooses not to work, they must be paid an unemployment allowance - this is $1.30 a week. In addition, a hygiene allowance of $9.55 is payable per week," a QCS spokesman said.
"If employed, they are paid (depending on the job) from $2.80 to $8.45 per week."
They pay them to keep clean or clean up? Or does the prisoner pay them?
Also, says they don't have internet access!
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:16 AM
That last CM article again implies no visits by mother .... WHY?!! I've said this before, but I find this very strange. Is she repulsed? Is she about to break? She was obviously fine the day of the bomb affected Bail Hearing as both parents were seen leaving the Kenmore home that afternoon and again the next morning. Why hasn't she been to the remand centre? I can't understand this.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:19 AM
Pardon me :o but I don't fully grasp everything in the following CM report:
Baden-Clay is expected to be given protection status, which is only granted if they are assessed as "at risk of harm within the general prison population", have an intellectual disability or if charges relate to "serious offences". Well, he certainly qualifies here IMO! :giggle:
Upon entry, prisoners are issued with prison uniform - a green T-shirt, shorts, tracksuit pants, jumper and joggers.
Baden-Clay is not required to work in prison, but will be encouraged to participate "in some type of meaningful activity", such as cleaning or kitchen duties, horticulture work or maintenance. Nothing entirely NEW to him here given the morning of Allison's disappearance & when she went away to celebrate her 40th Birthday!
"If a remand prisoner chooses not to work, they must be paid an unemployment allowance - this is $1.30 a week. In addition, a hygiene allowance of $9.55 is payable per week," a QCS spokesman said. Here I'm confused ... forgive me guys ... but are they PAID to be dirty (i.e. not waste water etc.) ~ or must they PAY out of their own pockets (or borrowed funds / church donations or whatever) to be dirty? :what: Because even the MAX $8.45 won't cover the 'dirt'. "If employed, they are paid (depending on the job) from $2.80 to $8.45 per week."
:cowcouch:
I interpret that allowance as being for buying toothpaste, soap, shampoo, etc from the prison store.
Crime and punishment
06-27-2012, 09:20 AM
A true caterpillar story...My son had an allergic reaction after standing under a eucalypt tree(in his school uniform) where hairy caterpillars were shedding their 'hairs' recently. He had huge red lumps all over his stomach and had to have antihistamines. The itching was intense. Medical advice was to place sticky tape over the affected areas to pull out the spines that pierce the skin then to have a cool shower to reduce swelling. While it sounds a bit way out- and everyone has had a laugh about it-caterpillars can cause red itchy rashes.
Makara
06-27-2012, 09:20 AM
That last CM article again implies no visits by mother .... WHY?!! I've said this before, but I find this very strange. Is she repulsed? Is she about to break? She was obviously fin the day of the bomb affected Bail Hearing as both parents were seen leaving the Kenmore home that afternoon and again the next morning. Why hasn't she been to the remand centre? I can't understand this.
Maybe she has a criminal record and is not permitted to visit GBC. :what:
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:26 AM
Maybe she has a criminal record and is not permitted to visit GBC. :what:
Wow, good thinking 99! I had not thought of that ... fraud? DUIs? IMO.
I interpret that allowance as being for buying toothpaste, soap, shampoo, etc from the prison store.
Haha, bet some stinky people choose to buy other things.
Wonder Woman
06-27-2012, 09:27 AM
:websleuther:
It seems unlikely from what we know that Allison had dressed to go running or walking before she died. Yet, GBC apparently reported what clothes she would be found in. He hadn't seen her going walking according to his account.
One might then wonder what clothes, if any, Allison died in. We have heard that there was blood in the car, however, we haven't heard that there was blood on her running clothes. Perhaps there was. If there was no blood on her running clothes, she might not have died in them or alternatively, the blood may have washed away or been destroyed when the body was exposed to the elements for 11 days.
If she was not wearing the running clothes when she died, there might have been blood on the actual clothes (if any) that she had been wearing when she died. These might have been the clothes that she had worn to the hairdresser. If this is the case, one wonders what might have happened to these clothes.
Does anyone have any information regarding the clothing she was wearing when she left the hair salon at 6:30pm on 19 April 2012?
Bayside
06-27-2012, 09:28 AM
That last CM article again implies no visits by mother .... WHY?!! I've said this before, but I find this very strange. Is she repulsed? Is she about to break? She was obviously fin the day of the bomb affected Bail Hearing as both parents were seen leaving the Kenmore home that afternoon and again the next morning. Why hasn't she been to the remand centre? I can't understand this.
It makes me wonder why she hasnt visited.
Are more than two visitors allowed at a time in his protected area?
Do Olivia and Bwana BC have things they want to discuss without mum?
Is MumBC feeling a bit ashamed or cant bear to see Gerard like that?
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:28 AM
A true caterpillar story...My son had an allergic reaction after standing under a eucalypt tree(in his school uniform) where hairy caterpillars were shedding their 'hairs' recently. He had huge red lumps all over his stomach and had to have antihistamines. The itching was intense. Medical advice was to place sticky tape over the affected areas to pull out the spines that pierce the skin then to have a cool shower to reduce swelling. While it sounds a bit way out- and everyone has had a laugh about it-caterpillars can cause red itchy rashes.
... and so can infected scratches from ones wife?
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:30 AM
Haha, bet some stinky people choose to buy other things.
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
marlywings
06-27-2012, 09:30 AM
The two faces of GBC...
24028
annie46664
06-27-2012, 09:32 AM
I interpret that allowance as being for buying toothpaste, soap, shampoo, etc from the prison store.
Surely then it would ultimately work out MUCH CHEAPER, to simply make those necessities readily / freely available. i.e. Give each prisoner his monthly allocation of soap, shampoo, toothpaste, toilet paper etc. ???
Then those who choose to remain FILTHY, can possibly barter with their allocation if so desired ~ not that there'd be any point in doing so, unless one is ULTRA hygienic & likes to be SQUEEKY CLEAN.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:33 AM
The two faces of GBC...
24028
The good boy ... the boogie man!
Makara
06-27-2012, 09:34 AM
Wow, good thinking 99! I had not thought of that ... fraud? DUIs? IMO.
You're welcome 86. That is the only reason I can think of for EBC not visiting her son. Well, there is one other reason, she is thoroughly disgusted and horrified at what GBC has allegedly done and has disowned him.
OT.
IMO EBC does not look well at all in the MSM pics I've seen of her. I'm wondering if she's recovering from an illness, hence the very short hair and drawn features.
MOO.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:38 AM
:websleuther:
It seems unlikely from what we know that Allison had dressed to go running or walking before she died. Yet, GBC apparently reported what clothes she would be found in. He hadn't seen her going walking according to his account.
One might then wonder what clothes, if any, Allison died in. We have heard that there was blood in the car, however, we haven't heard that there was blood on her running clothes. Perhaps there was. If there was no blood on her running clothes, she might not have died in them or alternatively, the blood may have washed away or been destroyed when the body was exposed to the elements for 11 days.
If she was not wearing the running clothes when she died, there might have been blood on the actual clothes (if any) that she had been wearing when she died. These might have been the clothes that she had worn to the hairdresser. If this is the case, one wonders what might have happened to these clothes.
Does anyone have any information regarding the clothing she was wearing when she left the hair salon at 6:30pm on 19 April 2012?
Someone indicated that she was not wearing walking/sports clothes at the hairdressers, but that's all we know. I believe he dressed her in walking clothes after the fact and after he had concocted his story. IMO.
annie46664
06-27-2012, 09:40 AM
Maybe she has a criminal record and is not permitted to visit GBC. :what:
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
:laughcry:
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:43 AM
You're welcome 86. That is the only reason I can think of for EBC not visiting her son. Well, there is one other reason, she is thoroughly disgusted and horrified at what GBC has allegedly done and has disowned him.
OT.
IMO EBC does not look well at all in the MSM pics I've seen of her. I'm wondering if she's recovering from an illness, hence the very short hair and drawn features.
MOO.
Compared to earlier photos of her, she does look more unkept. But, if she was recovering from a serious illness that had an effect on her hair, IMO she would be a lot thinner and drawn.
She might be the matriarch and as you say, her son is now a disgrace and she can't face him.
:websleuther:
It seems unlikely from what we know that Allison had dressed to go running or walking before she died. Yet, GBC apparently reported what clothes she would be found in. He hadn't seen her going walking according to his account.
One might then wonder what clothes, if any, Allison died in. We have heard that there was blood in the car, however, we haven't heard that there was blood on her running clothes. Perhaps there was. If there was no blood on her running clothes, she might not have died in them or alternatively, the blood may have washed away or been destroyed when the body was exposed to the elements for 11 days.
If she was not wearing the running clothes when she died, there might have been blood on the actual clothes (if any) that she had been wearing when she died. These might have been the clothes that she had worn to the hairdresser. If this is the case, one wonders what might have happened to these clothes.
Does anyone have any information regarding the clothing she was wearing when she left the hair salon at 6:30pm on 19 April 2012?
I wonder whether the hairdresser could remember what she was wearing?
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 09:47 AM
Gerard Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on Facebook, including Premier Campbell newman, since being arrested for murder of wife Allison
June 28, 2012 12:00AM
GERARD Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on his Facebook account since being put behind bars, including Premier Campbell Newman.
However, he still has 372 Facebook friends, including federal Liberal MPs Jane Prentice and Julie Bishop.
A spokeswoman for Mr Newman said the Premier's old Facebook profile, which has not been used since the election campaign ended, was shut down a couple of weeks ago.
"The closure of the profile means Mr Newman no longer has 'Facebook friends'," she said in a statement.
"Instead Mr Newman has a Facebook page, which anyone can like, with requests not requiring approval."
Prisoners cannot access the internet, but many with Facebook accounts get their family or friends to update their profiles.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-has-lost-13-friends-on-facebook-including-premier-campbell-newman-since-being-arrested-for-murder-of-wife-allison/story-e6freoof-1226410504650
Oddly enough I went to look at this today. The most significant friend he has lost in my opinion is Charles Tarbay ( C21 boss).
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:48 AM
I wonder whether the hairdresser could remember what she was wearing?
She was interviewed at least twice by police and may have given an indication of what she was wearing. I can't wait for the Committal Hearing to hopefully find out more details about the case.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:49 AM
Oddly enough I went to look at this today. The most significant friend he has lost in my opinion is Charles Tarbay ( C21 boss).
He was still listed yesterday, so must have happened in the last 24 hours.
Makara
06-27-2012, 09:49 AM
Oddly enough I went to look at this today. The most significant friend he has lost in my opinion is Charles Tarbay ( C21 boss).
Interesting. I can just imagine Charlie saying "You're dropped Gerard." :floorlaugh:
Makara
06-27-2012, 09:51 AM
Compared to earlier photos of her, she does look more unkept. But, if she was recovering from a serious illness that had an effect on her hair, IMO she would be a lot thinner and drawn.
She might be the matriarch and as you say, her son is now a disgrace and she can't face him.
If that's the case, she may not be sucking face with Bwana for much longer either. :what: :floorlaugh:
Bayside
06-27-2012, 09:51 AM
He was still listed yesterday, so must have happened in the last 24 hours.
When he figured he wouldnt be getting any of that money Gerard owes him.
annie46664
06-27-2012, 09:52 AM
Someone indicated that she was not wearing walking/sports clothes at the hairdressers, but that's all we know. I believe he dressed her in walking clothes after the fact and after he had concocted his story. IMO.
Although, there's a possibility that Allison returned home from the hairdresser & immediately changed into something more comfortable, as I tend to do from any formal-type or even casual 'dress' once indoors, & especially if I'd had my hair trimmed.
Given their DEAD relationship & more than likely sleeping in separate bedrooms, she surely wouldn't have any desire to walk around in any 'sexy' sleepwear either ~ so more than likely slept in jogging-type gear anyway. I do in cooler weather, given that I live alone with an almost 25yr old son, whom I'm currently, hopefully temporarily though, giving early morning lifts to the bus stop to & can't bear the thought of changing so early in this cooler weather.
Aussie_expat.sg
06-27-2012, 09:52 AM
You're welcome 86. That is the only reason I can think of for EBC not visiting her son. Well, there is one other reason, she is thoroughly disgusted and horrified at what GBC has allegedly done and has disowned him.
OT.
IMO EBC does not look well at all in the MSM pics I've seen of her. I'm wondering if she's recovering from an illness, hence the very short hair and drawn features.
MOO.
She could be unwell purely due to stress. My guess is she is the most emotional of the clan, if her initiation of the pash in the garage is any indication, and perhaps there is some concern that she will say something detrimental to their objectives.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 09:57 AM
If that's the case, she may not be sucking face with Bwana for much longer either. :what: :floorlaugh:
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 09:57 AM
He was still listed yesterday, so must have happened in the last 24 hours.
But note how other Tarbey family members are still GBC's friends. Also note that Tarbey is friends with Nigelaine Baden-Clay I wonder if that friendship will be ended soon.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 10:01 AM
You're welcome 86. That is the only reason I can think of for EBC not visiting her son. Well, there is one other reason, she is thoroughly disgusted and horrified at what GBC has allegedly done and has disowned him.
OT.
IMO EBC does not look well at all in the MSM pics I've seen of her. I'm wondering if she's recovering from an illness, hence the very short hair and drawn features.
MOO.
That's what I mentioned in an earlier thread Makara.
THe reason EBC did not visit GBC in my opinion is that he would only be allowed a max of two visitors during any one visiting session. ( If visiting rights are similar to other correctional institutions.)
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 10:01 AM
Interesting. I can just imagine Charlie saying "You're dropped Gerard." :floorlaugh:
... and Adios my $75,000!
Makara
06-27-2012, 10:01 AM
But note how other Tarbey family members are still GBC's friends. Also note that Tarbey is friends with Nigelaine Baden-Clay I wonder if that friendship will be ended soon.
Hey Mouse, Tarbey won't be getting his money back from GBC so he's probably hoping that Nigelaine will clear their son's debt.
MOO.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 10:03 AM
That's what I mentioned in an earlier thread Makara.
THe reason EBC did not visit GBC in my opinion is that he would only be allowed a max of two visitors during any one visiting session. ( If visiting rights are similar to other correctional institutions.)
Another member indicated 3 max. per visit. Also, she could have still visited him in the afternoon session or yesterday?
Makara
06-27-2012, 10:03 AM
That's what I mentioned in an earlier thread Makara.
THe reason EBC did not visit GBC in my opinion is that he would only be allowed a max of two visitors during any one visiting session. ( If visiting rights are similar to other correctional institutions.)
If there is a limit of two visitors per visiting session I would have thought that OW would step back so that her mother could visit GBC.
Limaes
06-27-2012, 10:04 AM
For all we know, the midnight call may not have been to NBC...it could have been to EBC. jmo
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:06 AM
Was there an earthquake in the previous thread and everybody took off??
:hills: Nah it was hairy caterpillar plague..
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:07 AM
For all we know, the midnight call may not have been to NBC...it could have been to EBC. jmo
Funny though that the prosecution have tabled it as a call to NBC.. perhaps they know more than we do as to why they specifically say NBC..MOO
GlobeArtichoke
06-27-2012, 10:07 AM
iPhone tracking application
Something for QPS investigators: did Allison's iPhone have the "Find my iphone" APP installed? iTunes would have a record of the subscription.
It has been previously mentioned in the media that GBC endeared himself with Allison in their early days by helping her with her computer issues. I also recall reading on this forum that GBC has a preference for (Apple) Mac devices.
If so its a fair bet that he knew of, and possibly installed, the "Find my iPhone" App on Allison's iPhone for the pure reason of security in the event of its accidental loss or theft.
The App works from one login account (e.g. this App is on my iPhone but installed by my partner using his login details - I can use it if I know his login details...which I do ), and in this scenario for Allison, I suggest it would be GBC's login. The App is installed on all Apple devices under the one account so that the whereabouts of any device (connected to wifi or telephone network) can be checked with any of the others. Checking a device brings up a google street map showing location of the device, including if it's in transit.
If the App was on Allison's iPhone and not mentioned during the search process, eyebrows would be raised.
On a more sinister note: such a location-tracking tool could be exploited by a possessive, mistrustful partner. If this were the case, the discovery of this by Allison would be a major catalyst for confrontation. Allison could have thrown or hidden the phone herself - switched on/off, she wouldn't have cared.
All of the above is purely speculative.
I posted the above back in Thread #9, and since GBC allegedly declared the existence of this App in his April 20th SMS to Allison it could become an interesting piece of evidence.
As CaseClosed pointed out, location (GPS) services can be switched off manually which would disable the App on the iPhone. Or the phone itself could be switched off to disable the App.
Another poster also pointed out that a phone, even when switched off, can still be pinged and triangulated from mobile phone towers. It seems this was the case for Allison's phone (though we don't know if it was switched off) which indicates it wasn't destroyed.
My guess is that GBC probably divulged the April 20 SMSes to Allison to police on the morning of the search for her, knowing that the search for it using the App would be fruitless because he had either disabled location services or switched her phone off. It would then be imperative for QPS to find Allison's phone to check WHAT TIME it had been switched off. Usage statistics should record this.
Further, if GBC was in the habit of using the Find My iPhone App to locate Allison, it could weaken a defense argument that her phone might have been wrenched from her hands during an altercation with an attacker/abductor during her walk and tossed into the scrub nearby. In this scenario, one would have to presume the attacker had some clue as to how to turn the phone off, and to stop and take the time to do this.
MOO
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:10 AM
If there is a limit of two visitors per visiting session I would have thought that OW would step back so that her mother could visit GBC.
Just wondering if we assume someone of more than one from the BCs had some knowledge or involvement..maybe EBC is innocent and did not have knowledge..maybe she is in shock with the allegations and or cannot face visiting him in prison.. Just a few alternative thoughts.
sorry Makara..notice you said similar on the previous page..
Makara
06-27-2012, 10:12 AM
Funny though that the prosecution have tabled it as a call to NBC.. perhaps they know more than we do as to why they specifically say NBC..MOO
Most likely because the call was traced to NBC's phone but that doesn't mean to say that he was the one who answered the call. Having said that, I agree UT, there will be so much more revealed about this call and NBC. :woohoo:
MOO.
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 10:12 AM
:hills: Nah it was hairy caterpillar plague..
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:16 AM
Most likely because the call was traced to NBC's phone but that doesn't mean to say that he was the one who answered the call. Having said that, I agree UT, there will be so much more revealed about this call and NBC. :woohoo:
MOO.
Yes I thought that too of the reason they said it was his phone. I guess I assumed though that they had knowledge that he spoke to NBC to state that he called NBC.. I thought they may actually have more knowledge of went down with that call then has been stated at this point.. but just a guess.
Limaes
06-27-2012, 10:18 AM
Funny though that the prosecution have tabled it as a call to NBC.. perhaps they know more than we do as to why they specifically say NBC..MOO
Well I hope they know more than we do :) I just find it hard to believe that there is anyone in that family that is in the dark. jmo
Makara
06-27-2012, 10:21 AM
It doesn't look there is going to be any midnight media updates. I haven't received any Google alerts. Are there any CM subscribers here at the moment?
CaseClosed
06-27-2012, 10:21 AM
:offtobed: :seeya:
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:27 AM
Well I hope they know more than we do :) I just find it hard to believe that there is anyone in that family that is in the dark. jmo
Ha ha..yes I hope they do too! or they're up the creek..
Yeah I agree it does seem like at least the parents have some knowledge. I am not sure about anyone else. Not prepared to throw away the key on them..because I guess at this stage we could be wrong on what we think..But it is looking highly suss on at least 1 person and maybe more..
MOO
:offtobed:
Limaes
06-27-2012, 10:31 AM
Ha ha..yes I hope they do too! or they're up the creek..
Yeah I agree it does seem like at least the parents have some knowledge. I am not sure about anyone else. Not prepared to throw away the key on them..because I guess at this stage we could be wrong on what we think..But it is looking highly suss on at least 1 person and maybe more..
MOO
:offtobed:
I am suss on 3. The other one, who I have never spoke of, I feel is 100% innocent.
jubillee
06-27-2012, 10:31 AM
:hills: Nah it was hairy caterpillar plague..
Its not that stupid a thing to suggest really. Here are some pics of caterpillar bites.
Limaes
06-27-2012, 10:35 AM
Its not that stupid a thing to suggest really. Here are some pics of caterpillar bites.
eww...nasty!
Berry
06-27-2012, 10:39 AM
Its not that stupid a thing to suggest really. Here are some pics of caterpillar bites.
Good snaps/pics............however, there are no self inflicted scratches done by the human that tear through the epidermis to leave deep markings associated.
Lame search by Peter Davis, his Senior Counsel, as an excuse....for chest scratches lol...........
jubillee
06-27-2012, 10:41 AM
Good snaps/pics............however, there are no self inflicted scratches done by the human that tear through the epidermis to leave deep markings associated.
Lame search by Peter Davis, his Senior Counsel, as an excuse....for chest scratches lol...........
How do you come to the conclusion that one cant tear through their own top layer of skin?
Cheekymonkey
06-27-2012, 10:45 AM
I am suss on 3. The other one, who I have never spoke of, I feel is 100% innocent.
Just curious...which 3? NBC, EBc and OW or TM
Cheers
Kimster
06-27-2012, 10:47 AM
Just curious...which 3? Mama Bear, Papa Bear and Sister Bear or Goldilocks?
Cheers
Please use initials of those you are discussing. Name variations are not allowed because the members get confused. Not everyone is here daily. :)
:cheers:
Cheekymonkey
06-27-2012, 10:48 AM
Please use initials of those you are discussing. Name variations are not allowed because the members get confused. Not everyone is here daily. :)
:cheers:
Sorry :(
Berry
06-27-2012, 10:50 AM
How do you come to the conclusion that one cant tear through their own top layer of skin?
Ummmm jubes, I admired your pictures, but in your 4 pics, I observed that no human who had them, had also had any scratches that tore through their top layer of skin.
Did you?
Kimster
06-27-2012, 10:51 AM
Sorry :(
Don't worry about it. You are certainly not the first one to do that.
jubillee
06-27-2012, 10:54 AM
Ummmm jubes, I admired your pictures, but in your 4 pics, I observed that no human who had them, had also had any scratches that tore through their top layer of skin.
Did you?
I'm sorry but I am not following what you mean..
jubillee
06-27-2012, 10:55 AM
P.S Only my friends call me Jubes:rocker:
summer_breeze
06-27-2012, 11:08 AM
For those who were asking, DrWatson is on the verified posters list! (Thank you Imamaze!)
Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Must be a slow news day at the CM.......
or they have been reading here again and getting our ideas(tongue in cheek)
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 11:42 AM
Dr Watson, I hope you don't mind but we all know most will check your verification.
I thought I'd post it here to save everyone going looking for it and googling.
What is a Thoracic Surgeon?
A thoracic surgeon is a medical doctor who performs operations on the heart, lungs, esophagus, and other organs in the chest. This also includes surgeons who can be called cardiothoracic surgeons, cardiovascular surgeons, general thoracic surgeons, and congenital heart surgeons.
What kind of training is required to become a Thoracic Surgeon?
Thoracic surgeons have to graduate from medical school and most commonly will go on to complete a five-year general surgery residency. After this they must successfully matriculate through an approved cardiothoracic surgery residency program for either two or three years. Some thoracic surgeons choose to do additional training in a sub-specialized area but this training is largely optional, except for congenital heart surgery.
Very specialized it seems. Welcome. Can I have a loan? LOL
Berry
06-27-2012, 12:07 PM
P.S Only my friends call me Jubes:rocker:
Mwahhh jubes.....GBC HAD huge deep scratches on his chest I mean and I do wonder IF it was the caterpillar sting/bite (as stated) these other pics of bites you gave us don't seem to have those scratches around them....JMO
Dr. Watson, you wrote 'And you can't remove the battery from an iPhone - it's built into the phone.'
That is not true. iPhone batteries can be removed.
And yes Global Artichoke, I am the poster who said that iPhones will still ping GPS even when turned properly off. They continue to ping until battery is either flat or removed.
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 12:20 PM
Its not that stupid a thing to suggest really. Here are some pics of caterpillar bites.
Yep..not dissimilar to I have experienced myself...
My joke about a plague of hairy caterpillars was in reference to Caseclosed asking why everyone had deserted the last thread..
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 12:23 PM
Mwahhh jubes.....GBC HAD huge deep scratches on his chest I mean and I do wonder IF it was the caterpillar sting/bite (as stated) these other pics of bites you gave us don't seem to have those scratches around them....JMO
Do we know that the scratches on his chest were deep? Just asking cause I don't think I've seen that mentioned. I know the ones on his face were supposedly deepish..
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 03:19 PM
Do we know that the scratches on his chest were deep? Just asking cause I don't think I've seen that mentioned. I know the ones on his face were supposedly deepish..
The picture of the one on his neck I posted which a lot of people scoffed at seemed quite deep and IMO caused a scar.
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 03:20 PM
Off topic with this case. But a remarkable story that may have some coincidence to "our" story.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8490445/sydney-man-guilty-of-honour-killing
Willowwind
06-27-2012, 03:43 PM
That last CM article again implies no visits by mother .... WHY?!! I've said this before, but I find this very strange. Is she repulsed? Is she about to break? She was obviously fine the day of the bomb affected Bail Hearing as both parents were seen leaving the Kenmore home that afternoon and again the next morning. Why hasn't she been to the remand centre? I can't understand this.
Because she probably was not involved in the curcumstances thr night or morning Alison went missing...and her husband seems to be under a great deal of suspicion
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 04:43 PM
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
Morning y'all :)
Played around with my iPhone this morning and noticed this: the phone being traced by find my phone will show a status that it's being tracked. ie: if GBC DID try to use the app, Allisons phone would have recorded it ( if her phone was actually enabled TO be traced)
MOO
Originally posted by BJSleuth
I have rehashed some things, simply to get questions answered and clear in my mind, sorry if that's offended anyone, i'm not trying to steal ideas or anything. I find it really hard to keep track of who's who and who said what too.
Great point! :)
Fuskier
06-27-2012, 05:36 PM
:websleuther:
It seems unlikely from what we know that Allison had dressed to go running or walking before she died. Yet, GBC apparently reported what clothes she would be found in. He hadn't seen her going walking according to his account.
One might then wonder what clothes, if any, Allison died in. We have heard that there was blood in the car, however, we haven't heard that there was blood on her running clothes. Perhaps there was. If there was no blood on her running clothes, she might not have died in them or alternatively, the blood may have washed away or been destroyed when the body was exposed to the elements for 11 days.
If she was not wearing the running clothes when she died, there might have been blood on the actual clothes (if any) that she had been wearing when she died. These might have been the clothes that she had worn to the hairdresser. If this is the case, one wonders what might have happened to these clothes.
Does anyone have any information regarding the clothing she was wearing when she left the hair salon at 6:30pm on 19 April 2012?
These are very good questions. He did state that he did not see her go for the walk, so how could he describe with accuracy what clothes and shoes she wore? Further, the Crown stated at the Bail Hearing in the Supreme Court that the children were in the house; so they most likely saw what their mother was wearing before they went to sleep. Their witness testimony is important here IMO.
ozazure
06-27-2012, 05:40 PM
I have to wonder if EBC was not disgusted with murder, but is now disgusted with how stupidly he went about it.
I hope one day we get to learn about the bc clan family dynamics.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 05:50 PM
Dr. Watson, you wrote 'And you can't remove the battery from an iPhone - it's built into the phone.'
That is not true. iPhone batteries can be removed.
And yes Global Artichoke, I am the poster who said that iPhones will still ping GPS even when turned properly off. They continue to ping until battery is either flat or removed.
Thanks Woof - I stand corrected on that point. However, it is not a simple task, and not a matter of simply removing the back off the case and flipping out the battery as in most other phones. It seems to be quite an involved process including removing the display, the camera mechanism, etc etc..:
http://www.wikihow.com/Replace-an-iPhone-Battery
Just for those who may want to try it ;)
But yes - the battery CAN be removed. As somebody posted a few days ago - my bad.... ;)
kalamityk
06-27-2012, 05:53 PM
These are very good questions. He did state that he did not see her go for the walk, so how could he describe with accuracy what clothes and shoes she wore? Further, the Crown stated at the Bail Hearing in the Supreme Court that the children were in the house; so they most likely saw what their mother was wearing before they went to sleep. Their witness testimony is important here IMO.
They probably said something to the police on the Friday morning too.
Allison's phone - I really hope the QPS have it her 'notes' and calendar may hold some vital information- lets hope she backed it up recently:)
Fuskier
06-27-2012, 05:53 PM
I posted the above back in Thread #9, and since GBC allegedly declared the existence of this App in his April 20th SMS to Allison it could become an interesting piece of evidence.
As CaseClosed pointed out, location (GPS) services can be switched off manually which would disable the App on the iPhone. Or the phone itself could be switched off to disable the App.
Another poster also pointed out that a phone, even when switched off, can still be pinged and triangulated from mobile phone towers. It seems this was the case for Allison's phone (though we don't know if it was switched off) which indicates it wasn't destroyed.
My guess is that GBC probably divulged the April 20 SMSes to Allison to police on the morning of the search for her, knowing that the search for it using the App would be fruitless because he had either disabled location services or switched her phone off. It would then be imperative for QPS to find Allison's phone to check WHAT TIME it had been switched off. Usage statistics should record this.
Further, if GBC was in the habit of using the Find My iPhone App to locate Allison, it could weaken a defense argument that her phone might have been wrenched from her hands during an altercation with an attacker/abductor during her walk and tossed into the scrub nearby. In this scenario, one would have to presume the attacker had some clue as to how to turn the phone off, and to stop and take the time to do this.
MOO
Your post is interesting because an earlier Poster, identified as 543 insisted that: if it was the husband, he would have switched the phone off. At that time, posters could not understand the significance of turning the phone off, but in light of your comments, that post did have signficance. IMO 543 seemed to know about the phone and possibly the app. Hope QPS read your post and follow up.
Humdinger
06-27-2012, 05:53 PM
Maybe EBC can't be trusted to keep her cool? Maybe she'd have a tantrum and cause distress to darling G? Maybe she would be too distressed to see her baby in that situation and needs more time to come to terms with it?
Whatever the case, it certainly is very interesting!
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 05:57 PM
They probably said something to the police on the Friday morning too.
Allison's phone - I really hope the QPS have it her 'notes' and calendar may hold some vital information- lets hope she backed it up recently:)
With iCloud ( if its switched on) EVERYTHING is automatically sent there except SMS content. Everything else is sent - emails, calender entries, notes, find my iPhone activity...
appleblossom
06-27-2012, 05:57 PM
Do we know that the scratches on his chest were deep? Just asking cause I don't think I've seen that mentioned. I know the ones on his face were supposedly deepish..
April 21, 2012
Mr Baden-Clay voluntarily attended the Indooroopilly Police Station with his lawyers and voluntarily provided a DNA sample and allowed police to take photos of his body.
Scratches and abrasions on his chest, torso and neck were photographed.
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z285ldY1
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Maybe EBC can't be trusted to keep her cool? Maybe she'd have a tantrum and cause distress to darling G? Maybe she would be too distressed to see her baby in that situation and needs more time to come to terms with it?
Whatever the case, it certainly is very interesting!
GBC won't talk, NBC won't talk and EBC won't talk OR visit her son - maybe they all googled self incrimination ....
MOO
appleblossom
06-27-2012, 06:02 PM
The police affidavit said blood found in the rear of the car was tested and confirmed to be Allison's.
But Mr Davis disputed this, saying police had only filed evidence of a luminol test to the court and not the result showing the blood belonged to Allison.
He said it was "widely speculative and inaccurate".
But Justice Boddice said police had filed a "statement that it is" her blood and that they were not required to present further evidence at this stage of the court process.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Dr Watson, I hope you don't mind but we all know most will check your verification.
I thought I'd post it here to save everyone going looking for it and googling.
What is a Thoracic Surgeon?
A thoracic surgeon is a medical doctor who performs operations on the heart, lungs, esophagus, and other organs in the chest. This also includes surgeons who can be called cardiothoracic surgeons, cardiovascular surgeons, general thoracic surgeons, and congenital heart surgeons.
What kind of training is required to become a Thoracic Surgeon?
Thoracic surgeons have to graduate from medical school and most commonly will go on to complete a five-year general surgery residency. After this they must successfully matriculate through an approved cardiothoracic surgery residency program for either two or three years. Some thoracic surgeons choose to do additional training in a sub-specialized area but this training is largely optional, except for congenital heart surgery.
Very specialized it seems. Welcome. Can I have a loan? LOL
Good morning Curious and others :) Thanks for summarizing. That pretty well would identify me to some posters who live locally, but that's no problem. I also have those sub-specialized bits that are mentioned above, and in one of those areas, have been the only one in Australia for many years, until some of my trainees have taken the ball and are running with it, so to speak.
But enough of my qualifications. They only apply to stuff that I post that is relevant to my areas of expertise. For the general comments I may post, my knowledge or skills are not relevant and no different from anyone else's views. Maybe my training makes me think somewhat objectively rather than emotively, though, so apologies if that approach rubs the occasional poster up the wrong way.
:truce:
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:05 PM
The police affidavit said blood found in the rear of the car was tested and confirmed to be Allison's.
But Mr Davis disputed this, saying police had only filed evidence of a luminol test to the court and not the result showing the blood belonged to Allison.
He said it was "widely speculative and inaccurate".
But Justice Boddice said police had filed a "statement that it is" her blood and that they were not required to present further evidence at this stage of the court process.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html
Perhaps this is why they wanted the DNA sample from him, to rule out the blood as being his or more likely - the children's.
AusChuck
06-27-2012, 06:06 PM
Regarding the "Find My Friends" app that it appears GBC was referencing in his message:
It is something that has to be activated at both ends, ie the finder and the findee both have to authorise that particular app to work. The fact that GBC was referencing the app, and that ABC knew about at least one affair, perhaps part of the 'resolution' of the known affair was for ABC to be able to know GBC's location via the app - perhaps offered as a kind of 'trust offering'. So it seems likely that they both knew of and used the app.
Knowing that GBC's affair(s) continued, it may also be likely that he thought he was familiar with 'tricking' the app or using techniques to conceal his true location (leaving the phone in an innocent location while having a rendezvous etc). He may have believed he could use what he thought he knew about the app to generate a false location trail for ABC ending in "Find My Friends" being switched off (and a false trail for himself). Indeed, if this happened, he may have needed an accomplice just to move ABC's phone on a false trail (and then turn it off) while he was busy with other activities.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 06:10 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:14 PM
Regarding the "Find My Friends" app that it appears GBC was referencing in his message:
It is something that has to be activated at both ends, ie the finder and the findee both have to authorise that particular app to work. The fact that GBC was referencing the app, and that ABC knew about at least one affair, perhaps part of the 'resolution' of the known affair was for ABC to be able to know GBC's location via the app - perhaps offered as a kind of 'trust offering'. So it seems likely that they both knew of and used the app.
Knowing that GBC's affair(s) continued, it may also be likely that he thought he was familiar with 'tricking' the app or using techniques to conceal his true location (leaving the phone in an innocent location while having a rendezvous etc). He may have believed he could use what he thought he knew about the app to generate a false location trail for ABC ending in "Find My Friends" being switched off (and a false trail for himself). Indeed, if this happened, he may have needed an accomplice just to move ABC's phone on a false trail (and then turn it off) while he was busy with other activities.
Hmmmm, interesting thought (I had).
In yesterday's newspaper, it stated that GBC had a conversation with TM.
Did they meet up and did Allison locate him via find my friend, and when she got back from the hairdressers did she tell him 'gotcha' !!
IMO
JMO
MOO
April 21, 2012
Mr Baden-Clay voluntarily attended the Indooroopilly Police Station with his lawyers and voluntarily provided a DNA sample and allowed police to take photos of his body.
Scratches and abrasions on his chest, torso and neck were photographed.
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z285ldY1
Sounds like he may have been topless when this occurred and that a violent struggle took place.
GlobeArtichoke
06-27-2012, 06:20 PM
That last CM article again implies no visits by mother .... WHY?!! I've said this before, but I find this very strange. Is she repulsed? Is she about to break? She was obviously fine the day of the bomb affected Bail Hearing as both parents were seen leaving the Kenmore home that afternoon and again the next morning. Why hasn't she been to the remand centre? I can't understand this.
Maybe there's a heritable anxiety disorder that is exacerbated under stress? GBC might share such a trait with his mother. I'm thinking - panic attacks that appear when life isn't going to plan, and have been occasional in the past and therefore not requiring treatment...until now???
Just a vague possibility.
Or GBC might have requested his mother NOT visit, feeling they might both suffer more for it.
MOO
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:21 PM
Sounds like he may have been topless when this occurred and that a violent struggle took place.
I had thought about this too.
Possible scenario: GBC is having ashower when Allisons confronts him about his 'conversation' with TM. Whatever he had been thinking of (that required him to google self incrimination prior to this night), suddenly becomes a RIGHT HERE ! RIGHT NOW ! I'M GONNA DO IT ! moment.
Did they have an ensuite bathroom ? Could he have followed her to the bedroom and suffocated her with one of the pillows ?
IMO
JMO
MOO
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going him and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:welcome5:
appleblossom
06-27-2012, 06:23 PM
June 13, 2012
At 3pm, Mr Baden-Clay was arrested at the Toowong Towers car park. Police allege the scratches on Mr Baden-Clay's face have scarred and have been "partially obscured by beard growth".
He is charged with murder and interfering with a corpse.
June 14, 2012
A government medical officer advises police a shaving cut is "usually a epidermal nick and is not likely to scar given that they don't break the dermis. A non-intimate forensic order is requested to shave the relevant part of Mr Baden-Clay's face, examine and take photograph of the injuries".
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z2EXLZR2
BreakingNews
06-27-2012, 06:24 PM
I have to wonder if EBC was not disgusted with murder, but is now disgusted with how stupidly he went about it.
I hope one day we get to learn about the bc clan family dynamics.
O, I agree. EBC may just be so overwhelmed. Maybe loss of community standing has hit her the hardest. Or maybe she is now sorry for her garage pash. I reckon she will be first one to breakdown and hopefully tell all. Goodness, she could write a book. We'd all buy it and she could be rich!
I knew of a murderer on trial whose entire family would have nothing to do with him and they moved 2000 km away from him. They were appalled at what he had done.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
Hopefully I am not repeating something another poster has written but thought I should clarify something about phone tracking
Firstly I think it is important to distinguish between GPS tracking and GSM tracking
GPS transmitting signals come from the phone itself and are very accurate at pinpointing a phone's location. This tracking feature can be turned on or off at the handset for a range of applications such as Facebook for their check-in feature, GPS/Tom Tom and find my iPhone.
If this feature is turned off, the way the police can roughly detect where a phone is located is by working out which GSM cells (i.e.transmitter/receivers within the Telco network) it is connected to. This is done via a triangulating technique. Because mobiles are in motion they are connected to an "active" GSM cell but also have "roaming" cell connections in readiness for cell changeover. Generally phones will connect to the GSM cell with the strongest signal - this is not necessarily the closest GSM cell to the phone. The hot zone would indicate most likely place for that phone to be located but may be in a slightly larger radius if the transmission from it's nearest GSM cell was weaker than from a GSM cell further away.
The tests may have indicated that in the area where the BC home is located the strongest signal comes from the cell that mainly caters for users in the hot zone - hence why they believe the phone may still be located within 150m of the home. Hope this helps
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:26 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going him and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TM is a grown woman, not a naive teenager.
TM knew GBC was married.
I and many women have been sleazed onto by charming married men, and those of us with self esteem and morals reject their advances.
IMO
JMO
MOO
marlywings
06-27-2012, 06:33 PM
April 21, 2012
Mr Baden-Clay voluntarily attended the Indooroopilly Police Station with his lawyers and voluntarily provided a DNA sample and allowed police to take photos of his body.
Scratches and abrasions on his chest, torso and neck were photographed.
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z285ldY1
Just a thought...maybe he had both...scratches from Allison which he then tried to disguise by rolling in a caterpillar patch.
OR he fell into a caterpillar nest while stumbling his way around in complete darkness out at Kholo creek.
Whatever he had must have been fairly significant for police to want them photographed.
"""Mr Davis said the marks on his client’s torso were related to a “caterpillar incident” and he had witness statements attesting to that"""
Who are these witnesses??? mum & dad??
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Keentoknow would be able to verify the correct procedure for prison visits - it is my understanding that you need to apply to visit the prisoner and there are strict rules surrounding it; i.e. you can't change your mind at the last minute and swap places with another family member in lieu of the person that has applied to visit.
So EBC might not have yet applied to visit her son
Forgive me chipping in here, but if GBC is still only a remand prisoner - he hasn't been tried, or sentenced - wouldn't he have different rights from those serving sentences? Including visitors, etc? Or does the presumption of innocence not extend into the remand section of the prison?
I have no idea, but any info from someone who does know the difference would be great....
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 06:35 PM
Many thanks for the welcome :-)
TM is a grown woman, not a naive teenager.
TM knew GBC was married.
I and many women have been sleazed onto by charming married men, and those of us with self esteem and morals reject their advances.
IMO
JMO
MOO
Perhaps having no self esteem and being venerable is her crime then.
Who knows what moment of weakness he caught her on. It's easy to assume and judge... isn't it. Why not have a little bit of compassion for a woman not only being accused of this by some but who also just found out she feel for not just a every day sleaze but a murderer.
If someone you loved killed someone, you are not responsible - you are a victim.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 06:36 PM
The police affidavit said blood found in the rear of the car was tested and confirmed to be Allison's.
But Mr Davis disputed this, saying police had only filed evidence of a luminol test to the court and not the result showing the blood belonged to Allison.
He said it was "widely speculative and inaccurate".
But Justice Boddice said police had filed a "statement that it is" her blood and that they were not required to present further evidence at this stage of the court process.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html
That strikes me odd that an attorney would even say that, like why would the police not test blood, of course they would
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 06:36 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Welcome - hope you enjoy the forum! My comment below is not intended to offend -just a different point of view.
I have to say I disagree with so much that you have said. But put simply, a woman who has a LONG (supposedly, as reported in MSM) affair with a married man is NOT A VICTIM in my opinion. No excuses, no explanations. There is nothing that has been reported that indicates she does not have the capacity for decision-making and understanding consequences of her actions.
I do think TM would be FEELING like a victim right now, particularly if she is aware of the other reported affairs GBC was having, and it must be very confronting for her to have to face the potential devastation her choices will now have on her family and herself. But sympathy for TM - not by any stretch of the imagination. These situations always make me think of this point - are you upset that you did what you did, or upset that you got caught? Is TM upset that she engaged in the affair with GBC, or upset that she is now caught up in this devastating situation?
Keentoknow
06-27-2012, 06:38 PM
Keentoknow would be able to verify the correct procedure for prison visits - it is my understanding that you need to apply to visit the prisoner and there are strict rules surrounding it; i.e. you can't change your mind at the last minute and swap places with another family member in lieu of the person that has applied to visit.
So EBC might not have yet applied to visit her son
No. All visitors must be approved before hand.
http://www.correctiveservices.qld.gov.au/Resources/Procedures/Local/documents/locprosasvisitors_AGCC.shtml
9.34am: Police allege Mr Baden-Clay searched 'psychiatrists Brisbane West' on his phone.
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z2GT39LU
Perhaps, in line with OWs statement that ABC suffered from depression, GBC may have told police that ABC was seeing a psychiatrist. As police were present at 9.34am at ABCs house, then, on being told this, police may have asked who was that person. GBC could have stated that he didn't recall name and searched as above to see if he could recall a name for a psychiatrist. This is all speculation on my part, but I think it highly unlikely that he was searching for one for himself, with police arriving at house only 1 hour beforehand.
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 06:41 PM
Good morning Curious and others :) Thanks for summarizing. That pretty well would identify me to some posters who live locally, but that's no problem. I also have those sub-specialized bits that are mentioned above, and in one of those areas, have been the only one in Australia for many years, until some of my trainees have taken the ball and are running with it, so to speak.
But enough of my qualifications. They only apply to stuff that I post that is relevant to my areas of expertise. For the general comments I may post, my knowledge or skills are not relevant and no different from anyone else's views. Maybe my training makes me think somewhat objectively rather than emotively, though, so apologies if that approach rubs the occasional poster up the wrong way.
:truce:
Hi Doc, My intention was not to "out" you. My apologies. Sincerely.
I was unable to go back and remove it.
I just knew that most posters would go and check your verification, as I did.
That is your title under verification so anyone can see that.
I was just saving people having to look for your verification.
I haven't had must to say to you as yet. I am getting to know you via your posts, it's unfortunate for you that you remind me of others on here that have not rubbed me the right way, but I had not intended to say that.
Anyway, I enjoy each and every post I read,even if I disagree no one can hear my huff at the screen. I would think most long time posters understand me by now.(I do admit I post a lot before I think and tend to be an emotional one)
EBC, may be ill and having treatment, I thought so when I saw pictures of her that look very different to her real estate profile. Someone said she would be thin but I can tell you that is not so. Some people have to have huge amounts of steroid drugs to counter the chemo drugs and they make you appear larger than you are.My sister looked like the Michelin man.
I agree with the person who has described TM and her involvement she may well be a victim and it does look like she is assisting police to make a case against him.
GlobeArtichoke
06-27-2012, 06:43 PM
Dr. Watson, you wrote 'And you can't remove the battery from an iPhone - it's built into the phone.'
That is not true. iPhone batteries can be removed.
And yes Global Artichoke, I am the poster who said that iPhones will still ping GPS even when turned properly off. They continue to ping until battery is either flat or removed.
Thanks, Woof. Saved me searching. My technophile hubby claimed it couldn't be true.
BrissyLass
06-27-2012, 06:44 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Welcome to the forum
yes she is somewhat of a victim in this mess as have many people have become unfortunatley, no one close to this is ever going to have their "same" life again, the repurcusions of something like this NEVER go away and they reach far and wide
My issue is that yes, she is the "other woman" a single woman, not married, she has no obligtion to anyone ... GBC on the other hand was obvioulsy a rat with not a whole lot of morals and may have been the pursuer, I have no clue who was.....but it is irrelevant really... if he was the one doing the chasing..... IMO, she could have said No. Sadly, that is a mistake that she is going to pay for for a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long time. But I'm sure that she knows all this now
this is the problem with affairs/greed/arrogance......it rarely ends well, a lot of time not this badly for sure.....but there is not too often that a happy outcome is the result IMO
Cleary you have an association with TM, I can read that in your words, If she is a friend then I'm sorry for how you must be feeling at this time, see, nasty stuff affects LOTS of people *sigh*
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Many thanks for the welcome :-)
Perhaps having no self esteem and being venerable is her crime then.
Who knows what moment of weakness he caught her on. It's easy to assume and judge... isn't it. Why not have a little bit of compassion for a woman not only being accused of this by some but who also just found out she feel for not just a every day sleaze but a murderer.
If someone you loved killed someone, you are not responsible - you are a victim.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As an apparently functioning adult (she has had relationships, a family, and employment), she appears to have had the ability and capacity to seek help for any issues she was having that may have led her to become involved with a married man, or for that matter, engage in any other behaviours a person with 'self esteem' may not have. I personally don't believe it all comes down to self esteem. IMO, this is an excuse given by many people to engage in behaviour otherwise judged to be inappropriate. We don't know if she does in fact regret her relationship with GBC. We don't know if she suffers from self esteem. We don't know if she just purely and simply enjoyed the rush of being involved with a married man.
But I just get a bit frustrated with functioning adults using the 'self esteem' excuse. It applies in some cases, but is not a 'get out of jail free' card. If a person's self esteem is so low that their ability to distinguish between right and wrong is impaired, seek help. That is a choice, just like choosing to be involved with a married man is.
All my opinion.
J-Diggety
06-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Gerard Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on Facebook, including Premier Campbell newman, since being arrested for murder of wife Allison
June 28, 2012 12:00AM
GERARD Baden-Clay has lost 13 friends on his Facebook account since being put behind bars, including Premier Campbell Newman.
However, he still has 372 Facebook friends, including federal Liberal MPs Jane Prentice and Julie Bishop.
A spokeswoman for Mr Newman said the Premier's old Facebook profile, which has not been used since the election campaign ended, was shut down a couple of weeks ago.
"The closure of the profile means Mr Newman no longer has 'Facebook friends'," she said in a statement.
"Instead Mr Newman has a Facebook page, which anyone can like, with requests not requiring approval."
Prisoners cannot access the internet, but many with Facebook accounts get their family or friends to update their profiles.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-has-lost-13-friends-on-facebook-including-premier-campbell-newman-since-being-arrested-for-murder-of-wife-allison/story-e6freoof-1226410504650
Cannot believe that made the news......oh my...
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Many thanks for the welcome :-)
Perhaps having no self esteem and being venerable is her crime then.
Who knows what moment of weakness he caught her on. It's easy to assume and judge... isn't it. Why not have a little bit of compassion for a woman not only being accused of this by some but who also just found out she feel for not just a every day sleaze but a murderer.
If someone you loved killed someone, you are not responsible - you are a victim.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Would you have compassion for the woman who was cheating with your husband ?
As my name implies I have opinions, and I express those without compunction.
Had TM felt bad for her actions and left the affair and NOT re-entered the relationship a scant 2 months later, them PERHAPS some degree of compassion could be illicited.....
IMO
JMO
MOO
Fuskier
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
For those who were asking, DrWatson is on the verified posters list! (Thank you Imamaze!)
Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92524)
I note that DrWatson is verified as a Thoracic Physician.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Hi Doc, My intention was not to "out" you. My apologies. Sincerely.
No worries, Curious :)
And being adults, we should be able to take a bit of rubbing up the wrong way without letting it get to us, yes? ;)
No need to remove the post, especially as it's now been quoted in my own post anyway...
GlobeArtichoke
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
Yep, that's what I was getting at.
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Thanks, Woof. Saved me searching. My technophile hubby claimed it couldn't be true.
It was true with the 1st IPhone that came out (least in the US) maybe that's where the confusion is coming from.
Keentoknow
06-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Forgive me chipping in here, but if GBC is still only a remand prisoner - he hasn't been tried, or sentenced - wouldn't he have different rights from those serving sentences? Including visitors, etc? Or does the presumption of innocence not extend into the remand section of the prison?
I have no idea, but any info from someone who does know the difference would be great....
Not correct. ALL the visit rules apply to ALL the prisoners. Remand and sentenced. GBC is NOT being treated any different than any other prisoner at any time.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 06:49 PM
I note that DrWatson is verified as a Thoracic Physician.
Morning Fuskier :)
Curiousasacat posted a couple of pages back to save people looking it up.
And to correct the listing, it should actually read "Thoracic and Vascular surgeon" - for those in Australia, where a physician is a non-surgical doctor, whereas in America the term is used more generically to refer to any doctor.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Not correct. ALL the visit rules apply to ALL the prisoners. Remand and sentenced. GBC is NOT being treated any different than any other prisoner at any time.
Thanks for the info KtK. I would have assumed that remand prisoners may have had more rights. The fact that they don't makes the long delays while waiting for their day in court even more "wrong".
GlobeArtichoke
06-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Your post is interesting because an earlier Poster, identified as 543 insisted that: if it was the husband, he would have switched the phone off. At that time, posters could not understand the significance of turning the phone off, but in light of your comments, that post did have signficance. IMO 543 seemed to know about the phone and possibly the app. Hope QPS read your post and follow up.
Yes! Good point!
FirstTimer
06-27-2012, 06:57 PM
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
.....and iPhone to iPhone has iMessage where it tells you if a text message had been delivered or not to the recipient. No mention of the text not being recieved? Just no reply. Whether that is relevant or not, dunno.
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 06:58 PM
Cannot believe that made the news......oh my...
If you use twitter, check out the comments at Courier mail.
A lot of derogatory comments directed about this today.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Thank you Brissy Lass
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Keentoknow
06-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Thanks for the info KtK. I would have assumed that remand prisoners may have had more rights. The fact that they don't makes the long delays while waiting for their day in court even more "wrong".
At the end of the day they want the time in remand to come off their sentence. Why should it be privileged time?
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 07:02 PM
I note that DrWatson is verified as a Thoracic Physician.
Told ya they'd be checking!! LOL
Obsessor
06-27-2012, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the info KtK. I would have assumed that remand prisoners may have had more rights. The fact that they don't makes the long delays while waiting for their day in court even more "wrong".
I agree, it is horrible to think that an innocent person could end up in this situation.
BBM
With regards to EBC not having visited GBC in prison, I have wondered, purely through observing her when she has been aware cameras have been about, that she seems like the "loose cannon" of the family. My mother is similar to EBC in that she is quite socially inappropriate. In our family, my father and the rest of us all give her her boundaries, to save us from being embarrassed by what she might do or say, or if the case arose, would leave her behind.
Thats not to say that we bully her, but if you could see the inappropriateness, you would understand what I mean. Sometimes its best to put her in her box and not let her out until after the event.
I would see a visit to prison, where conversations and actions are monitored, to be a situation where we wouldnt allow Mum to attend.
I know that sounds odd, but where sensitivity is required, sometimes its in the best interests of everyone that this is established.
MOO
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:04 PM
Karma has come to visit TM. She is not a victim, she is part of the reason Allison was laying dead under a bridge in cold muddy water. She will now have to live with the mess that she and GBC left behind. A dirty, shameful mess.
I strongly disagree. Having a love affair with a man who married or not does not hold you responsible for his thoughts or actions.
Again, so easy to judge.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 07:08 PM
Just speculating but given the fact TM was attending the same meeting as ABC the next day and "apparently" advised GBC to tell ABC that she would be attending, "could" be what sparked the agruement. All JMO, thoughts, etc. Anyway given the fact TM was sleeping with ABC's hubby, she should have decided NOT to attend the meeting given the fact ABC was going... I dam sure wouldn't have gone if I was TM and knew she would be there...kind of like rubbing it in her face... IMO
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Regarding GBC's last text messages I would be extremely interested to know if he always signed off his text msgs to her "Love G" Hmmm.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:09 PM
I strongly disagree. Having a love affair with a man who married or not does not hold you responsible for his thoughts or actions.
Again, so easy to judge.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HAD TM not known GBC was married when the affair began, then perhaps she could claim 'poor me'.
IMO based on his willingness to seek out and commence an affair, TM was aware that he was not an honest man, and had no right to feel that she was the injured party when she found out she wasn't the only one.
IMO
JMO
MOO
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:12 PM
Just speculating but given the fact TM was attending the same meeting as ABC the next day and "apparently" advised GBC to tell ABC that she would be attending, "could" be what sparked the agruement. All JMO, thoughts, etc. Anyway giving TM was sleeping with ABC's hubby, she should have decided not to attend the meeting given the fact ABC was going... I dam sure wouldn't have gone if I was TM and knew she would be there...kind of like rubbing it in her face... IMO
Perhaps it was a work obligation that Toni could not get of.
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marlywings
06-27-2012, 07:14 PM
Thanks for the info KtK. I would have assumed that remand prisoners may have had more rights. The fact that they don't makes the long delays while waiting for their day in court even more "wrong".
I agree, it is horrible to think that an innocent person could end up in this situation.
BBM
With regards to EBC not having visited GBC in prison, I have wondered, purely through observing her when she has been aware cameras have been about, that she seems like the "loose cannon" of the family. My mother is similar to EBC in that she is quite socially inappropriate. In our family, my father and the rest of us all give her her boundaries, to save us from being embarrassed by what she might do or say, or if the case arose, would leave her behind.
Thats not to say that we bully her, but if you could see the inappropriateness, you would understand what I mean. Sometimes its best to put her in her box and not let her out until after the event.
I would see a visit to prison, where conversations and actions are monitored, to be a situation where we wouldnt allow Mum to attend.
I know that sounds odd, but where sensitivity is required, sometimes its in the best interests of everyone that this is established.
MOO
Maybe she was, as you mention, the "loose cannon" & was put in her box after "demanding or abusing" police the night of GBC's arrest.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:15 PM
HAD TM not known GBC was married when the affair began, then perhaps she could claim 'poor me'.
IMO based on his willingness to seek out and commence an affair, TM was aware that he was not an honest man, and had no right to feel that she was the injured party when she found out she wasn't the only one.
IMO
JMO
MOO
And you know she is claiming "poor me" do you?
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Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:16 PM
These threads are for victim - ALLISON BADEN-CLAY.
Any person or friend there-of related to this case, who feels victimised by the actions of GBC should perhaps visit a thread NOT in support of the victim and her family.
IMO
JMO
MOO
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:17 PM
And you know she is claiming "poor me" do you?
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By your own admission TM feels she is a victim.
IMO
JMO
MOO
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 07:18 PM
At the end of the day they want the time in remand to come off their sentence. Why should it be privileged time?
Yes - that would apply to those subsequently found guilty. But those who are innocent (either REALLY innocent, or found "Not Guilty" for whatever reason) would have been in prison for a long time for something they didn't do.
But that's a whole different discussion, I suppose, and getting off topic here.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 07:24 PM
:fence:I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
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I am sorry H2H but I cannot agree with you about Toni McHugh being a victim. Judging by what has been written in the MSM, she made a conscious decision to stay employed for more than 3 years in a business that was not only owned by her lover Gerard, but by his wife Allison. I am sure in addition to his attention, she willingly accepted all the financial benefits and accolades that she gleaned from her boss's preferential treatment of her.
How devastating would it have been for Allison to discover how long this inappropriate behaviour had been taking place between her husband and one of their "C21 Family Members"
How much financial devastation did their affair cause the B.C.'s business I wonder? I am sure it would have resulted in a number of unhappy staff leaving the Company. I suppose TM thought she was a victim when she lost her job too.
I am sure that to discover your lover has possibly murdered someone is a shock, especially if you end up being a key witness for the prosecution. It would be the same for anyone who is close to a murderer whether it be their wife, mother, daughter, sister or girlfriend or male counterparts - that is just the cards life deals us sometimes.
In my view TM may mostly feel she is a victim is because her "professional image" has been tarnished, because her clandestine affair with a married man has been so publicly exposed.
She would be wise to turn this spotlight on her around and make some public statements about her regret about having the affair with a married man and the lessons she has learned and not dwell too much on the fact her married man may be a murderer.
If I were her, I would consider calling Harry M Miller!
Keentoknow
06-27-2012, 07:25 PM
Yes - that would apply to those subsequently found guilty. But those who are innocent (either REALLY innocent, or found "Not Guilty" for whatever reason) would have been in prison for a long time for something they didn't do.
But that's a whole different discussion, I suppose, and getting off topic here.
I would prefer to see these people on remand than let all these so call innocent people walk the streets at night while you sleep.
Maybe you should spend a day in a remand centre.
I have spent 22 years in high security prisons and my mind has not changed.
Rational
06-27-2012, 07:25 PM
Many thanks for the welcome :-)
Perhaps having no self esteem and being venerable is her crime then.
Who knows what moment of weakness he caught her on. It's easy to assume and judge... isn't it. Why not have a little bit of compassion for a woman not only being accused of this by some but who also just found out she feel for not just a every day sleaze but a murderer.
If someone you loved killed someone, you are not responsible - you are a victim.
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Welcome to the forum and I hope you will enjoy your time here.
Please do not take my comments personal they are not, but I do take issue with TM being painted as a victim.
A victim is someone who either was unaware of the circumstances leading to the event, someone who is not party to the undermining of a marriage. As I see it, this this not apply to TM. She lent him significant sums of money, probably thinking that this somehow would strengthen their illicit bond. From reports in the MSM she is in fact he one being owed most of the money by GBC. Again these debts were due on 30 June 2012. She reignited the affair (again as reported by the MSM) in Dec 2012. Photo's of both of them at NGB and NGB place after the floods, playing happy families, were posted on OW's Facebook page.
She had GBC email her under an alias of Bruce Overland that he be with her on 1 July (one day after the loans were due for repayment). She knowingly was going to attend he same conference as Allison, and demanded he tell her that she would be there.
So all IMO she was a critical player in not only undermining Allison's marriage and the children's future, but even more so in building and contributing to the massive tension and circumstances that led directly to Allison's murder.
All IMO
Obsessor
06-27-2012, 07:26 PM
[quote=Obsessor;8096631]
Maybe she was, as you mention, the "loose cannon" & was put in her box after "demanding or abusing" police the night of GBC's arrest.
Just a further observation on that point, and one that is purely speculative and IMO, EBC and GBC seem quite alike in that they come across to me as "show ponies", wheres NBC and OW seem quite alike in that they appear to have more self-control and common sense. I would almost bet the family dynamic reflects this- that ebc and gbc are close and the same for ow and nbc.
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:27 PM
This was never suggested - opinionsgalore said "she could claim 'poor me'".
You are entitled to your opinion, and that is what's good about this forum. But so is everyone else. You will find that most people will welcome your input, but not if you jump on anyone that disagrees with your opinion.
Open debate is good and healthy - but you can't put down another poster for making assumptions when this is exactly what you are doing as a contributor on this forum too.
Bad choice of words on my part - thank you for the pick up :D
IMO
JMO
MOO
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:28 PM
By your own admission TM feels she is a victim.
IMO
JMO
MOO
Can you direct me to where I said anything about how she feels as opposed to how she must be feeling?
Feeling unwelcome to contribute any further as clearly heaven forbid I am not judging a woman for being responsible for a murder just because she allowed her heart to rule her head and foolishly have an affair with a married pig of a man. I will bow out.
Before I do.. I said, it's easy to judge but in reality extramarital affairs happen ever day. It's a sad but true fact, usually they do not result in murder.
My warm wishes and hopes for the three young girls left behind, those poor darling girls. I am sure their mother will watch over them and give them strength.
Edited to correct typo
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marlywings
06-27-2012, 07:29 PM
HAD TM not known GBC was married when the affair began, then perhaps she could claim 'poor me'.
IMO based on his willingness to seek out and commence an affair, TM was aware that he was not an honest man, and had no right to feel that she was the injured party when she found out she wasn't the only one.
IMO
JMO
MOO
I agree....in my opinion, life is all about choices....doing right or wrong...a two year old knows the difference. I don't see TM as being a victim...it was her choice...she chose wrongly & threw it in Allison's face by thinking she'd make a better partner for GBC...all while Allison was trying to keep the marriage together.
The only people I see as victims in this whole horrific mess are Allison's babies, Allison's family & TM's children.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 07:29 PM
Bad choice of words on my part - thank you for the pick up :D
IMO
JMO
MOO
No, you said 'could'. I think that is fine. Shows it's just a possibility. :)
Aunty
06-27-2012, 07:31 PM
Quick update re Find My iPhone for anyone interested. If Location Services are off, the Find My iPhone app supposedly doesn't work. If the SIM is removed, same. If battery removed, same. Yet police say ABC's phone was still transmitting the GPS signal. So, GBC's text message to ABC regarding 'app not working' or whatever.....was it bullsquat? Had he only turned the phone OFF, thinking that was all it would take to disable the GPS? That fascinates me. He says the app is not working, but obviously SOMETHING is working, enabling the phone to still ping until the battery dies.
If GBC threw her iphone into bushes or a creek, around what he will describe later as her usual walking route, he probably accessed it remotely , later , to disable it and all of its contents. He would want to ensure that no one ever finds out the incriminating information it contains.
It's easy to wipe its contents and disable it from being located.
He knows he can do this just by logging into her iPhone app " find iPhone "
He is now very confident that no one will ever get information off it remotely,
But, just in case it is suspected and proven that he accessed this app and could do this, he sends a text to ABC saying specifically " app not working" because to know this, he has to access the app in the first place.
This text is so obvious. It's his excuse for accessing her iPhone remotely. To find her. Good cover.
I suspect they later told him it was traced to around the house to watch his reaction to this information and hopefully catch him if he checks it or tries to move it, if he did still have it hidden somewhere.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 07:33 PM
Can you direct me to where I said anything about how she feels as opposed to how she must be feeling?
Feeling unwelcome to contribute any further as clearly heaven forbid I am not judging a woman for being responsible for a murder just because she allowed her heart to rule her head and foolishly have an affair with a married pig of a man. I will bow out.
Before I do.. I said, it's easy to judge but in reality extramarital affairs happen ever day. It's a sad but true fact, usually they do not result in murder.
My warm wishes and hopes for the three young girls left behind, those poor darling girls. I am sure their mother will watch over them and give them strength.
Edited to correct typo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will find that most of the responses to your post today were NOT in relation to TM been in any way responsible for Allison's death. Most were directed at the appropriateness of the affair. There is a BIG difference between these two issues.
You should still feel welcome to stay on here - sometimes you need a thick skin and be prepared for a debate when you post something so controversial, but the mod's keep a watch on us all :)
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:34 PM
Can you direct me to where I said anything about how she feels as opposed to how she must be feeling?
Feeling unwelcome to contribute any further as clearly heaven forbid I am not judging a woman for being responsible for a murder just because she allowed her heart to rule her head and foolishly have an affair with a married pig of a man. I will bow out.
Before I do.. I said, it's easy to judge but in reality extramarital affairs happen ever day. It's a sad but true fact, usually they do not result in murder.
My warm wishes and hopes for the three young girls left behind, those poor darling girls. I am sure their mother will watch over them and give them strength.
Edited to correct typo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My dander is up now, and rather than run the risk of being placed in 'time out', I will close off by re-iterating that these threads are for the victim - Allison Baden-Clay.
IMO
JMO
MOO
Rational
06-27-2012, 07:36 PM
Regarding GBC's last text messages I would be extremely interested to know if he always signed off his text msgs to her "Love G" Hmmm.
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Probably not but he probably signed his to TM as Love B
IMO
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:38 PM
No, you said 'could'. I think that is fine. Shows it's just a possibility. :)
I let my personal feelings type instead of my head. I have some very strong opinions and I am NOT known for holding back.... But I'll get there :)
IMO
JMO
MOO
BrissyLass
06-27-2012, 07:40 PM
Can you direct me to where I said anything about how she feels as opposed to how she must be feeling?
Feeling unwelcome to contribute any further as clearly heaven forbid I am not judging a woman for being responsible for a murder just because she allowed her heart to rule her head and foolishly have an affair with a married pig of a man. I will bow out.
Before I do.. I said, it's easy to judge but in reality extramarital affairs happen ever day. It's a sad but true fact, usually they do not result in murder.
My warm wishes and hopes for the three young girls left behind, those poor darling girls. I am sure their mother will watch over them and give them strength.
Edited to correct typo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sorry that you feel unwelcome here
but the bottom line is that this IS a victim forum and the victim here is Allison, there is no getting around that fact and TM (whether she likes it or not) has become vicariously involved in playing a part in Allison becoming that tragic victim IMO
I beleive there were many things that led to what ultimately happened Allison and TM is a part of that sorry to say
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 07:44 PM
You will find that most of the responses to your post today were NOT in relation to TM been in any way responsible for Allison's death. Most were directed at the appropriateness of the affair. There is a BIG difference between these two issues.
You should still feel welcome to stay on here - sometimes you need a thick skin and be prepared for a debate when you post something so controversial, but the mod's keep a watch on us all :)
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.
She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.
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Rational
06-27-2012, 07:50 PM
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.
She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think all of us on here are able to understand that she is more to you than to most of us.
There are many people on here that knew Allison personally, and have shared with us on the forum the heart wrenching grief that they are experiencing, yet still are aware that this must be so much harder for the children and the Dickies.
We love to have your input, at the same time, it will be hard for many to see TM as anything different than what has been expressed in the last few pages.
IMO
All IMO
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 07:55 PM
I would prefer to see these people on remand than let all these so call innocent people walk the streets at night while you sleep.
Maybe you should spend a day in a remand centre.
I have spent 22 years in high security prisons and my mind has not changed.
Yes agreed, imagine if he was guilty of murdering his wife and was free. That would be far worse IMO.
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 07:56 PM
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.
She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
*calm now*
If you want to defend TM - all well and good.
If you have info that you feel is pertinent to this case - AWESOME !!
But understand that many of the bloggers on this site are sympathetic to Allisons plight and feel a strong urge to defend her and some like I will stand and fight for her.
IMO very few people will have sympathy for people involved in an affair nor for the reasons for the affair itself.
IMO
JMO
MOO
LostSock
06-27-2012, 07:57 PM
My dander is up now, and rather than run the risk of being placed in 'time out', I will close off by re-iterating that these threads are for the victim - Allison Baden-Clay.
IMO
JMO
MOO
Actually these threads are to discuss the crime.
I tend to ignore posts I disagree with but I have become disenchanted with the amount of venom fellow Aussies will throw at each other if someone has a different view. You can't get to the bottom of anything unless you look at every angle.
This was an interesting thread to follow at the start but getting to exclusive now, so I will say goodbye to all, thanks for the insights and giggles.
Not aimed at the poster quoted just a general observation.
Hawkins
06-27-2012, 07:58 PM
it would be very difficult to fake the level of mental illness or incapacity needed to trigger the insanity or diminished responsibility provisions of the criminal code. But then again, the diagnosis of mental illness is notoriously inconsistent. A numgber of meta anlalyses show that the chances of a correct forensic psychiatric diagnosis are about the same as corectly guesing the flip of a coin. If a person kills another and then wants to provide for the possibility of having a murder indictment reduced to manslaughter, by reason of dininsihed responsibility, they would need to establish that the mental incapacity was operating at the time of the impugned act (the killing). The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances. Although there will eventually be a referral of the question of diminshed responsibility to the Mental Health Court, evidence from a psychiatrist who examined the accused very soon after event will usually carry significant weight. If the finding from that psychiatrist is that the accused was in an obvious state of stress, but that there is insufficient evidence of a deprivation of the requisite capacities, then the accused has lost nothing as a result. All MOO.
BrissyLass
06-27-2012, 07:59 PM
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.
She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have no doubt that she is HRH....when people we care about are caught up in bad stuff....it is a very hard road for us, I've had experience of caring/loving someone who did the wrong thing, I've sat on a bus and overheard people gossiping about this person, they knew only what they had read in the papers (no internet forums back then) having forums and everything discussed on this scale must be so much harder to have to look at.
But on the other hand......there are posters on here that were close to ABC, how bloody hard must it be for them to see every detail hashed out here?????
there are just no winners here is there :mad:
Hopefully I am not repeating something another poster has written but thought I should clarify something about phone tracking
Firstly I think it is important to distinguish between GPS tracking and GSM tracking
GPS transmitting signals come from the phone itself and are very accurate at pinpointing a phone's location. This tracking feature can be turned on or off at the handset for a range of applications such as Facebook for their check-in feature, GPS/Tom Tom and find my iPhone.
If this feature is turned off, the way the police can roughly detect where a phone is located is by working out which GSM cells (i.e.transmitter/receivers within the Telco network) it is connected to. This is done via a triangulating technique. Because mobiles are in motion they are connected to an "active" GSM cell but also have "roaming" cell connections in readiness for cell changeover. Generally phones will connect to the GSM cell with the strongest signal - this is not necessarily the closest GSM cell to the phone. The hot zone would indicate most likely place for that phone to be located but may be in a slightly larger radius if the transmission from it's nearest GSM cell was weaker than from a GSM cell further away.
The tests may have indicated that in the area where the BC home is located the strongest signal comes from the cell that mainly caters for users in the hot zone - hence why they believe the phone may still be located within 150m of the home. Hope this helps
Thanks Mouse. Does that feature still work if the phone is in Airplane mode or turned off? I was under the impression that it wouldn't.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 08:09 PM
Thanks Mouse. Does that feature still work if the phone is in Airplane mode or turned off? I was under the impression that it wouldn't.
I doubt it. I wonder however if the carriers can detect which cell the phone was last linked to even if a call has not been made from it.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 08:14 PM
it would be very difficult to fake the level of mental illness or incapacity needed to trigger the insanity or diminished responsibility provisions of the criminal code. But then again, the diagnosis of mental illness is notoriously inconsistent. A numgber of meta anlalyses show that the chances of a correct forensic psychiatric diagnosis are about the same as corectly guesing the flip of a coin. If a person kills another and then wants to provide for the possibility of having a murder indictment reduced to manslaughter, by reason of dininsihed responsibility, they would need to establish that the mental incapacity was operating at the time of the impugned act (the killing). The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances. Although there will eventually be a referral of the question of diminshed responsibility to the Mental Health Court, evidence from a psychiatrist who examined the accused very soon after event will usually carry significant weight. If the finding from that psychiatrist is that the accused was in an obvious state of stress, but that there is insufficient evidence of a deprivation of the requisite capacities, then the accused has lost nothing as a result. All MOO.
So Hawkins - do you think in addition to getting a lawyer on day 1, GBC found himself a psychiatrist?
Does anyone know if Arthur Gorrie have a psychiatric unit?
Hawkins
06-27-2012, 08:16 PM
So Hawkins - do you think in addition to getting a lawyer on day 1, GBC found himself a psychiatrist?
Time will tell.
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 08:17 PM
If GBC threw her iphone into bushes or a creek, around what he will describe later as her usual walking route, he probably accessed it remotely , later , to disable it and all of its contents. He would want to ensure that no one ever finds out the incriminating information it contains.
It's easy to wipe its contents and disable it from being located.
He knows he can do this just by logging into her iPhone app " find iPhone "
He is now very confident that no one will ever get information off it remotely,
But, just in case it is suspected and proven that he accessed this app and could do this, he sends a text to ABC saying specifically " app not working" because to know this, he has to access the app in the first place.
This text is so obvious. It's his excuse for accessing her iPhone remotely. To find her. Good cover.
I suspect they later told him it was traced to around the house to watch his reaction to this information and hopefully catch him if he checks it or tries to move it, if he did still have it hidden somewhere.
If the phone was cleared remotely, would that show on iTunes or iCloud ?
IMO
JMO
MOO
ActusReus
06-27-2012, 08:19 PM
I would prefer to see these people on remand than let all these so call innocent people walk the streets at night while you sleep.
Maybe you should spend a day in a remand centre.
I have spent 22 years in high security prisons and my mind has not changed.
Having done a few visits to the local reception prison, I agree with KtK. Judges and Magistrates don't remand accused people into custody without due cause. Every accused person, in my state at least, is brought before a Magistrate at the earliest possible opportunity to have the bail issue decided.
Quite often MSM are up in arms that bail has been granted to easily. Judges seem to be damned if they do and damned if they don't.
The oft quoted "presumption of innocence" needs to be balanced against the risk posed by an accused perverting the course of justice by interfering with witnesses, failing to appear, tampering with evidence etc. The more serious the crime, the greater the risk that an accused will be tempted to do some or all of these things.
IMO none of this excuses the appalling delays in dealing with offences in some jurisdictions. This has nothing to do with the Judiciary and everything to do with the various governments who are happy have people on remand for extended periods of time.
grannie
06-27-2012, 08:24 PM
It's easy to wipe its contents and disable it from being located.
He knows he can do this just by logging into her iPhone app " find iPhone "
He is now very confident that no one will ever get information off it remotely,
But, just in case it is suspected and proven that he accessed this app and could do this, he sends a text to ABC saying specifically " app not working" because to know this, he has to access the app in the first place.
This text is so obvious. It's his excuse for accessing her iPhone remotely. To find her. Good cover.
Aunty, this is very astute of you! I hope QPS have explored that avenue. I personally believe this is exactly what happened to Allison's phone.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 08:27 PM
*calm now*
If you want to defend TM - all well and good.
If you have info that you feel is pertinent to this case - AWESOME !!
But understand that many of the bloggers on this site are sympathetic to Allisons plight and feel a strong urge to defend her and some like I will stand and fight for her.
IMO very few people will have sympathy for people involved in an affair nor for the reasons for the affair itself.
IMO
JMO
MOO
I am calm. :-)
I certainly to have sympathy for Allison's poor family. I can only imagine how heart broken they are and how shattered their lives now are.
I mean no disrespect to Allison's memory nor her family by standing on support of TM's innocence in Allison's murder.
I wasn't defending the affair, just saying simply and truly that they happen. It's a regrettable fact of life.
I am saying allowing your heart to rule your head is a question of morals but it does not make you a criminally minded person who could be responsible or even support someone else who commits murder. As some have indicated in this thread.
I do not believe for one moment that TM had any idea that GBC would ever be capable of such a awful act.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
appleblossom
06-27-2012, 08:28 PM
I strongly disagree. Having a love affair with a man who married or not does not hold you responsible for his thoughts or actions.
Again, so easy to judge.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:fence:
I am sorry H2H but I cannot agree with you about Toni McHugh being a victim. Judging by what has been written in the MSM, she made a conscious decision to stay employed for more than 3 years in a business that was not only owned by her lover Gerard, but by his wife Allison. I am sure in addition to his attention, she willingly accepted all the financial benefits and accolades that she gleaned from her boss's preferential treatment of her.
How devastating would it have been for Allison to discover how long this inappropriate behaviour had been taking place between her husband and one of their "C21 Family Members"
How much financial devastation did their affair cause the B.C.'s business I wonder? I am sure it would have resulted in a number of unhappy staff leaving the Company. I suppose TM thought she was a victim when she lost her job too.
I am sure that to discover your lover has possibly murdered someone is a shock, especially if you end up being a key witness for the prosecution. It would be the same for anyone who is close to a murderer whether it be their wife, mother, daughter, sister or girlfriend or male counterparts - that is just the cards life deals us sometimes.
In my view TM may mostly feel she is a victim is because her "professional image" has been tarnished, because her clandestine affair with a married man has been so publicly exposed.
She would be wise to turn this spotlight on her around and make some public statements about her regret about having the affair with a married man and the lessons she has learned and not dwell too much on the fact her married man may be a murderer.
If I were her, I would consider calling Harry M Miller!
I agree... totally. TM should publicly apologise to all involved for her part of this horrible mess. Admit fault in having the affair. Share her lesson learnt so maybe other women might think before jumping in the sack with married men. Become an example of how 'not' to do it.
I just feel so sorry for Allison 'knowing' about TM and wondering "Did 'she' ever say she felt bad because he was married?" (as she put in her journal) it must have broken her poor heart and she must have spent many hours crying alone where her girls couldn't see her.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I have no sympathy for TM.
LauraMars
06-27-2012, 08:30 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
Hi HeartRuledHead
I think a lot of the reason many may come across as so vicious and angry towards TM, is the length of the affair. It's not like it was a short fling (not suggesting at all that that would be acceptable either), but 3 -4 years is a long time and then for the affair to end, only to resume again so soon after. Also, she must have known Allison, and worked with her for at least some of those years. Did she not have any respect for Allison? Unfortunately it appears she put her own selfish wants and needs above all else.
Maybe TM really did love Gerard, and maybe she really thought he would leave Allison for her, but he didn't. Why didn't Toni walk away much much earlier?
I am sure it was probably Gerard who pursued TM, but she did always have a choice to say no. I also can't understand why you'd even want to be with someone who was so deceitful that he would string his wife along for 3 years plus.
I'm sure Toni wasn't his first infidelity, and obviously not his last. Quite possibly there are plenty more than the other 2 supposed mistresses.
While I don't believe she is responsible for Allison's death, she obviously played a big part in Allison's misery prior to her death.
I think it's highly likely that Gerard would have done the evil deed, regardless of whether he was still seeing TM, even if he'd never met her. I also doubt whether Gerard ever had any real intentions of 'officially' being with Toni. If he had have felt so strongly for her, wouldn't he have left Allison sooner? I reckon TM was probably just another big use for him, she was serving some purpose, much of that probably financial.
I agree with you in that I don't think people should poke holes in Toni's appearance (or his other family members for that matter). It's not even vaguely relevant.
All MOO
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 08:32 PM
I have no doubt that she is HRH....when people we care about are caught up in bad stuff....it is a very hard road for us, I've had experience of caring/loving someone who did the wrong thing, I've sat on a bus and overheard people gossiping about this person, they knew only what they had read in the papers (no internet forums back then) having forums and everything discussed on this scale must be so much harder to have to look at.
But on the other hand......there are posters on here that were close to ABC, how bloody hard must it be for them to see every detail hashed out here?????
there are just no winners here is there :mad:
You are right there are no winners. Its a god awful situation. I'm so sad that a woman has lost her life and three children have lost their mother.
As mother myself, my heart is broken that Allison is deprived the joy of watching them grow.
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Bobbie Elliott
06-27-2012, 08:35 PM
Perhaps it was a work obligation that Toni could not get of.
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She just had to call in sick.
(IMO) She seemed so comfortable with the idea of being in such close proximity with her lover's wife. Even pushing her lover to make sure that his wife would know is brazen and entitled. Really, would it make much difference whether she found out the night before or at the conference?
TM would know that GBC informing Allison the night before would surely have resulted in a bad scene. Also, Allison would probably question how GBC knew that TM was attending the conference - afterall they weren't supposed to be lovers anymore.
Liadan
06-27-2012, 08:36 PM
Hey all - Allisons birthday is only a few days away - any suggestions on what we could do to make it a remember Allison kind of respect thing?
Put a sunflower in our signature for 24 hours or make our signature yellow? Just something to remember her day at this time where things are truly just starting to emerge about how difficult it was for her and to remember her legacy of the 3 girls? Gosh hope this is allowed?
Many years ago, this nice man flirted with me at an event. I was flattered and attracted. Then someone told me he was married. I asked him if he was and he said yes. I left immediately and never saw him again. People have a choice. Married men are off the market. IMO there is no questioning that. TM knew GBC was married. She made the wrong choice.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 08:47 PM
Hi HeartRuledHead
I think a lot of the reason many may come across as so vicious and angry towards TM, is the length of the affair. It's not like it was a short fling (not suggesting at all that that would be acceptable either), but 3 -4 years is a long time and then for the affair to end, only to resume again so soon after. Also, she must have known Allison, and worked with her for at least some of those years. Did she not have any respect for Allison? Unfortunately it appears she put her own selfish wants and needs above all else.
Maybe TM really did love Gerard, and maybe she really thought he would leave Allison for her, but he didn't. Why didn't Toni walk away much much earlier?
I am sure it was probably Gerard who pursued TM, but she did always have a choice to say no. I also can't understand why you'd even want to be with someone who was so deceitful that he would string his wife along for 3 years plus.
I'm sure Toni wasn't his first infidelity, and obviously not his last. Quite possibly there are plenty more than the other 2 supposed mistresses.
While I don't believe she is responsible for Allison's death, she obviously played a big part in Allison's misery prior to her death.
I think it's highly likely that Gerard would have done the evil deed, regardless of whether he was still seeing TM, even if he'd never met her. I also doubt whether Gerard ever had any real intentions of 'officially' being with Toni. If he had have felt so strongly for her, wouldn't he have left Allison sooner? I reckon TM was probably just another big use for him, she was serving some purpose, much of that probably financial.
I agree with you in that I don't think people should poke holes in Toni's appearance (or his other family members for that matter). It's not even vaguely relevant.
All MOO
I agree with everything you have said. You are rational. I never meant to come across defending the affair at all, but they do happen every day (no excuse) though I am sure anyone who ever participated in an affair would anticipate that it could end in murder. Other than perhaps the murder of the participants once the wife/husband found out.
If there were no suggestions that TM was aware or responsible. Nor comments in relation to her look. I would not be defensive of her actions.
In no way to I defend the affair itself. I just believe she let her heart rule her head and she made this mistake that she has to live with.
It does not make her a mastermind, accomplice or murderer though.
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HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 08:48 PM
Many years ago, this nice man flirted with me at an event. I was flattered and attracted. Then someone told me he was married. I asked him if he was and he said yes. I left immediately and never saw him again. People have a choice. Married men are off the market. IMO there is no questioning that. TM knew GBC was married. She made the wrong choice.
You are right she did. Many people do.
Who is arguing this point may I ask?
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Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 08:51 PM
I wonder how soon after Allison was reported missing did TM actually come forward and VOLUNTEER information to the police? Just a thought......
marlywings
06-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Many years ago, this nice man flirted with me at an event. I was flattered and attracted. Then someone told me he was married. I asked him if he was and he said yes. I left immediately and never saw him again. People have a choice. Married men are off the market. IMO there is no questioning that. TM knew GBC was married. She made the wrong choice.
Absolutely agree Woof...probably the only positive to come out of the mess TM helped to create & which she's found herself in is, she'll be a witness for the prosecution :)....WOOOO HOOOO & YAYYYY....& that's something for everyone to be damn happy about in my opinion.
marlywings
06-27-2012, 08:55 PM
I agree with everything you have said. You are rational. I never meant to come across defending the affair at all, but they do happen every day (no excuse) though I am sure anyone who ever participated in an affair would anticipate that it could end in murder. Other than perhaps the murder of the participants once the wife/husband found out.
If there were no suggestions that TM was aware or responsible. Nor comments in relation to her look. I would not be defensive of her actions.
In no way to I defend the affair itself. I just believe she let her heart rule her head and she made this mistake that she has to live with.
It does not make her a mastermind, accomplice or murderer though.
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Actually I'm thinking of deleting my previous comment because at the moment no-one knows 100% if there'll be any further arrests or not. I don't know for a fact that TM wasn't involved in any way with any part of the murder....do you???
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 08:57 PM
I wonder how soon after Allison was reported missing did TM actually come forward and VOLUNTEER information to the police? Just a thought......
In honesty I have wondered the same... I would like to believe if she did expect GBC she would have come forward right away. Though perhaps it took her a while to believe that he could possibly be responsible for such a thing.
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Fuskier
06-27-2012, 08:57 PM
Regarding the "Find My Friends" app that it appears GBC was referencing in his message:
It is something that has to be activated at both ends, ie the finder and the findee both have to authorise that particular app to work. The fact that GBC was referencing the app, and that ABC knew about at least one affair, perhaps part of the 'resolution' of the known affair was for ABC to be able to know GBC's location via the app - perhaps offered as a kind of 'trust offering'. So it seems likely that they both knew of and used the app.
Knowing that GBC's affair(s) continued, it may also be likely that he thought he was familiar with 'tricking' the app or using techniques to conceal his true location (leaving the phone in an innocent location while having a rendezvous etc). He may have believed he could use what he thought he knew about the app to generate a false location trail for ABC ending in "Find My Friends" being switched off (and a false trail for himself). Indeed, if this happened, he may have needed an accomplice just to move ABC's phone on a false trail (and then turn it off) while he was busy with other activities.
Good post. Very possible.
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 08:57 PM
I wonder how soon after Allison was reported missing did TM actually come forward and VOLUNTEER information to the police? Just a thought......
From my understanding when reading MSM, a former female colleague was interviews by QPS very early in the investigation and the general consensus is that it was TM. If this is so, had the questioning taken place before or after investigating GBC's hard drive and phone ? If it was before, can we assume TM volunteered the information ?
IMO
JMO
MOO
Ms McHugh is the former staffer reported to have been interviewed at least three times by detectives and confirmed the relationship to police.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/murdered-mum-allison-baden-clay-knew-of-husband-gerards-affair-with-colleague-toni-mchugh/story-e6freuy9-1226361120004
You are right she did. Many people do.
Who is arguing this point may I ask?
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A lot of us who were taken in by this case were actually on the receiving end of deceitful husbands and their complicit women, so it's no wonder a lot of us are unsympathetic towards TM.
It's not TM's fault that A was killed, and she shouldn't be derided. But I myself still give her no sympathy.
You are right she did. Many people do.
Who is arguing this point may I ask?
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Your defence of TM. IMO there is no defending a woman who knows a man is married yet still has an affair with him. She is not the victim you paint her. She knew he was married.
Opinionsgalore
06-27-2012, 09:03 PM
Ms McHugh is the former staffer reported to have been interviewed at least three times by detectives and confirmed the relationship to police.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/murdered-mum-allison-baden-clay-knew-of-husband-gerards-affair-with-colleague-toni-mchugh/story-e6freuy9-1226361120004
Damn you're fast !!! Go you !!! :D
IMO
JMO
MOO
kailee
06-27-2012, 09:04 PM
I agree with everything you have said. You are rational. I never meant to come across defending the affair at all, but they do happen every day (no excuse) though I am sure anyone who ever participated in an affair would anticipate that it could end in murder. Other than perhaps the murder of the participants once the wife/husband found out.
If there were no suggestions that TM was aware or responsible. Nor comments in relation to her look. I would not be defensive of her actions.
In no way to I defend the affair itself. I just believe she let her heart rule her head and she made this mistake that she has to live with.
It does not make her a mastermind, accomplice or murderer though.
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IMO, TM is not a victim, but she is a player in the events leading up to a callous murder.
I am glad you share empathy towards ABC and the fact that her daughters are now living in a world without their loving mother.
Can you shed some more light on TM's side of the story?
Damn your fast !!! Go you !!! :D
IMO
JMO
MOO
LOL Marley is the fast one.
I was just re-reading this and was about to post it as I was thinking the same as you.
YoureNicked
06-27-2012, 09:07 PM
Welcome to the forum
yes she is somewhat of a victim in this mess as have many people have become unfortunatley, no one close to this is ever going to have their "same" life again, the repurcusions of something like this NEVER go away and they reach far and wide
My issue is that yes, she is the "other woman" a single woman, not married, she has no obligtion to anyone ... GBC on the other hand was obvioulsy a rat with not a whole lot of morals and may have been the pursuer, I have no clue who was.....but it is irrelevant really... if he was the one doing the chasing..... IMO, she could have said No. Sadly, that is a mistake that she is going to pay for for a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long time. But I'm sure that she knows all this now
this is the problem with affairs/greed/arrogance......it rarely ends well, a lot of time not this badly for sure.....but there is not too often that a happy outcome is the result IMO
Cleary you have an association with TM, I can read that in your words, If she is a friend then I'm sorry for how you must be feeling at this time, see, nasty stuff affects LOTS of people *sigh*
Beautiful post, BrissyLass...both sensitive and truthful.
Majenta
06-27-2012, 09:08 PM
Are you women serious? My god when did men become possessions as soon as they are married? Two people take vows when they choose to marry.. No one else does.. If a man chooses to break these vows and not forsake all others then it is his choice and it WONT be prevented by insecure women overprotecting there husbands by condemning and vilifying other women.. GBC broke the vows, TM didnt break any vows.. Not condoning or critising it just make sure you appropriate blame correctly...
SapphireSteel
06-27-2012, 09:09 PM
This crime is a perfect example of why I think marriage counselling is evil.
If your marriage is that far gone that you have to sit around and talk to a perfect stranger about it, it's way past time to get out.
I know someones going to say "marriage counselling saved my marriage" but DID IT REALLY? Or has it just extended the unhappiness and feelings of frustration and failure, which is something you only tend to realise in hindsight?
They need to change it to "end of marriage counselling" IMO.
marlywings
06-27-2012, 09:10 PM
From one of the very early reports & I think the report which GBC complained about...
April 23, 2012
POLICE stepped up the search for Brookfield mother Allison Baden-Clay after confirming that her disappearance was being treated as a crime investigation.
They confirmed that Gerard Baden-Clay, the husband of the missing woman and the father of her three girls, was a person of interest in the investigation along with a number of people close to the couple.
http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/Baden-Clay.htm
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:12 PM
From my understanding when reading MSM, a former female colleague was interviews by QPS very early in the investigation and the general consensus is that it was TM. If this is so, had the questioning taken place before or after investigating GBC's hard drive and phone ? If it was before, can we assume TM volunteered the information ?
IMO
JMO
MOO
Yes, there was a lot of discussion around that time, wasn't there! I was thinking more along the lines of VOLUNTARILY going to police to provide details of her involvement with the B-C's, and how long it took her after Allison was reported missing to speak with police. I just wonder if she at any time approached the police with her information, or if she waited for police to come and find her.
I just think regardless of whether she thought GBC was involved in Allison's disappearance, she should have gone to the police and provided information (after all, a person's life was in question). If she was worried about consequences of meeting with the police, she could have sought legal advice. But really, in the scenario that was unfolding on the day Allison was reported missing, surely TM's self-preservation should have been overridden by the very dire nature of Allison's disappearance.
Blue Bottle
06-27-2012, 09:13 PM
I strongly disagree. Having a love affair with a man who married or not does not hold you responsible for his thoughts or actions.
Again, so easy to judge.
I know my views aren't the most popular here about this, but I agree with what you have said about TM. It's easy for others on the oustide (be it family, friends or strangers), to judge other people's actions and come to conclusions based on one's own morals and ethics. I'm sure I do it too, in fact, I know there are times I do. lol..
If that was me as the cheated wife as in this case Allison was, I personally wouldn't bother trying to save the relationship (children or not) because I see no point in persuing a person who obviously no longer cares or loves me. I couldn't be arsed with all the intrigue nor spend my life and energy with a bloke who no longer sees me as his sole companion. What good can come out of trying to 'force' someone to love and care for you exclusively I think to myself.
I see it that, if I do chose to try to work on such relationship where he had another woman in his life, then I also take the risk that things may not work out as I expect (want) them to.
You can lose trust in seconds, but to get it back it has to be earnt and that can take a lifetime if ever, depending on what it is about. By the same token, I wouldn't trust a man I was having an affair with if he was married because well... if he can cheat on his wife or partner, then he could just as easily cheat on me too if I ended up with him.
I agree, noone is responsible for another's actions and thoughts.
Monogamy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
frustrated detective
06-27-2012, 09:18 PM
Welcome to the forum and I hope you will enjoy your time here.
Please do not take my comments personal they are not, but I do take issue with TM being painted as a victim.
A victim is someone who either was unaware of the circumstances leading to the event, someone who is not party to the undermining of a marriage. As I see it, this this not apply to TM. She lent him significant sums of money, probably thinking that this somehow would strengthen their illicit bond. From reports in the MSM she is in fact he one being owed most of the money by GBC. Again these debts were due on 30 June 2012. She reignited the affair (again as reported by the MSM) in Dec 2012. Photo's of both of them at NGB and NGB place after the floods, playing happy families, were posted on OW's Facebook page.
She had GBC email her under an alias of Bruce Overland that he be with her on 1 July (one day after the loans were due for repayment). She knowingly was going to attend he same conference as Allison, and demanded he tell her that she would be there.
So all IMO she was a critical player in not only undermining Allison's marriage and the children's future, but even more so in building and contributing to the massive tension and circumstances that led directly to Allison's murder.
All IMO
The murdered Allison's diary entry where she wrote something along the lines of 'did she ever say she felt bad that you were married'' puts it in perspective.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:20 PM
I know my views aren't the most popular here about this, but I agree with what you have said about TM. It's easy for others on the oustide (be it family, friends or strangers), to judge other people's actions and come to conclusions based on one's own morals and ethics. I'm sure I do it too, in fact, I know there are times I do. lol..
If that was me as the cheated wife as in this case Allison was, I personally wouldn't bother trying to save the relationship (children or not) because I see no point in persuing a person who obviously no longer cares or loves me. I couldn't be arsed with all the intrigue nor spend my life and energy with a bloke who obviously no longer sees me as his sole companion. What good can come out of trying to 'force' someone to love and care for you exclusively I think to myself.
I see it that, if I do chose to try to work on such relationship where he had another woman in his life, then I also take the risk that things may not work out as I expect (want) them to.
You can lose trust in seconds, but to get it back it has to be earnt and that can take a lifetime if ever, depending on what it is about. By the same token, I wouldn't trust a man I was having an affair with if he was married because well... if he can cheat on his wife or partner, then he could just as easily cheat on me too if I ended up with him.
I agree, noone is responsible for another's actions and thoughts.
Monogamy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy)
I actually think, IMO, that GBC benefited from staying with Allison on his terms and for his desired timeframe i.e. life insurance/superannuation. I guess this would only apply to this case if it was in fact premeditated murder, which is still uncertain for now. I just wonder who in the relationship was really trying to hold things together, at least temporarily, and what the motivation to stay together actually was. For instance, if there was a potential financial gain to be made in the short term, a person may draw out the relationship even if it is not what they wanted.
Not suggesting this is what GBC was doing, but just may provide another option to Allison been the only one with motivation to hold the marriage together.
ozazure
06-27-2012, 09:20 PM
I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.
I am prepared to cut her a lot more slack because a) she didn't kill anyone and b) she wasn't cheating on someone, but with someone. And aside from appearing to help police, the other two things we do know, she expected GBC to be ending his marriage and she was concerned about being at the same place as Allison, so it doesn't seem she is without conscience. I am wondering if rather than GBC's email being in response to pressure from her, it could have just as easily been him trying to suck her back in, as rumour has it the affair had halted and then resumed.
That said, it certainly brings it home that if you are prepared to act in morally questionable ways, the consequences can be outside of your control. I can't imagine how she is suffering and she could have prevented, if not a similar story unfolding with a different mistress, at least her own piece in it.
Are you women serious? My god when did men become possessions as soon as they are married? Two people take vows when they choose to marry.. No one else does.. If a man chooses to break these vows and not forsake all others then it is his choice and it WONT be prevented by insecure women overprotecting there husbands by condemning and vilifying other women.. GBC broke the vows, TM didnt break any vows.. Not condoning or critising it just make sure you appropriate blame correctly...
To GBC, his wife was his possession. But that is an aside.
The only reason we are discussing TM right now is because someone just brought her name into the discussion. If you care to go back you will see we are just as disgusted with GBC's behaviour in the affair. No-one here is blaming TM and excusing GBC.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 09:25 PM
As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?
It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ;) ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.
However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.
The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.
BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.
In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:27 PM
I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.
I am prepared to cut her a lot more slack because a) she didn't kill anyone and b) she wasn't cheating on someone, but with someone. And aside from appearing to help police, the other two things we do know, she expected GBC to be ending his marriage and she was concerned about being at the same place as Allison, so it doesn't seem she is without conscience. I am wondering if rather than GBC's email being in response to pressure from her, it could have just as easily been him trying to suck her back in, as rumour has it the affair had halted and then resumed.
That said, it certainly brings it home that if you are prepared to act in morally questionable ways, the consequences can be outside of your control. I can't imagine how she is suffering and she could have prevented, if not a similar story unfolding with a different mistress, at least her own piece in it.
There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):
How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.
Ooohm
06-27-2012, 09:27 PM
Welcome, HeartRuledHead.
In no way to I defend the affair itself. I just believe she let her heart rule her head and she made this mistake that she has to live with.
It does not make her a mastermind, accomplice or murderer
And here we have it, the telltale mess that a genuine psychopath leaves in their wake. I cannot overstate the breadth and width of the devastation which they incur. All sorts of people are victimized in many ways. It is sad but the one way we can trace a psychopath is to sit down with everyone they interact with and enumerate the damage. The signature is heartbreak.
I have no doubt that TM had no idea how a self-centred affair would ruin her life. It goes without saying that Allison suffered most, and her family must carry on somehow through the enormous pain. I am not discounting that Toni had her heart broken too. It is just on a much smaller scale in the scheme of things.
Aussie_expat.sg
06-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Welcome to the forum
yes she is somewhat of a victim in this mess as have many people have become unfortunatley, no one close to this is ever going to have their "same" life again, the repurcusions of something like this NEVER go away and they reach far and wide
My issue is that yes, she is the "other woman" a single woman, not married, she has no obligtion to anyone ... GBC on the other hand was obvioulsy a rat with not a whole lot of morals and may have been the pursuer, I have no clue who was.....but it is irrelevant really... if he was the one doing the chasing..... IMO, she could have said No. Sadly, that is a mistake that she is going to pay for for a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long time. But I'm sure that she knows all this now
this is the problem with affairs/greed/arrogance......it rarely ends well, a lot of time not this badly for sure.....but there is not too often that a happy outcome is the result IMO
Cleary you have an association with TM, I can read that in your words, If she is a friend then I'm sorry for how you must be feeling at this time, see, nasty stuff affects LOTS of people *sigh*
I think it is easy to want to "blame" someone for affairs. It is true that each had an obligation or commitment to their current partners and families. Both were married, both had kids.
I was devastated when my ex was having an affair. I remember leaving my kids in bed one night when I drove out to catch them at it! I remember the pain and guilt that I felt in leaving my kids to do that (I've never done that before or since), but I needed to know.
My ex and his current wife fell in love at a work conference. However, I now reflect on what has happened and realise that they are far better suited to each other. I loved him very deeply, and I think he still loves me, but more like a sister. They have been together 20 years, and no one that I know thinks she is a "better" person, far from it - most of his family and mine can't stand her. She is just a better match for him. I am pleased for him now. I would not have wanted him to stay with me and be unfulfilled. I agree that sometimes when people fall in love it is almost impossible to let it go, especially if it fills a hole in you that you can't even explain. My ex tells me that it is not perfect, but he cannot be without her. They are two halves of a whole. He didn't feel that with me. I understand it completely. The fallout for the kids was excruciating, but they would have lived with a cranky and difficult father if he had stayed. Who knows how much worse that would have been.
My ex stayed in the house (separate rooms) for a year because his lawyer advised him to do so (he didn't want to lose ANY money and didn't want to have to pay maintenance). I finally convinced him to leave and live with his girlfriend. He wanted his cake and wanted to eat it too so I had to issue an ultimatum (glad mine didn't result in a murder!). He is also a little bit narcissistic (although nothing like GBC) so money was a big issue for him. He saw all our money and assets as his. I think that is the problem for GBC too, however, half of nothing is nothing. He was probably more worried about having ALL of the debt.
I have sympathy for TM. I'm sure she is riddled with guilt, especially if she DID issue an ultimatum, which by the way, I would think is NATURAL. Anybody would look for some end to a clandestine situation - it is very uncomfortable. Not safe for the party who is waiting. She will be her own punishment...she will not easily forgive herself.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:30 PM
As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?
It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ;) ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.
However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.
The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.
BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.
In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?
BBM - not in my human nature :) Do love some of your posts, though!
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 09:33 PM
I just can't muster up any sympathy for TM at all, sorry... She could have backed off and waited for a divorce and thought about the 3 lil baby girls and ABC. While I agree with others, doubt GBC would have hooked up with her anyway (unless she had lots of money) given he had other flings going on. I don't think she is responsible for his deceision but feel in my heart she played a part in what happened via emotions, words or whatever.
Lu-Lu
06-27-2012, 09:33 PM
it The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse detective
So Hawkins - do you think in addition to getting a lawyer on day 1, GBC found himself a psychiatrist?
Time will tell.
Hmm! Perhaps that's the 'psychiatrists Brisbane West' who he googled..?
BrissyLass
06-27-2012, 09:42 PM
I think that TM has assisted police, I think that was the point of the information being in the press, to let GBC know she was turning on him.
I think this is spot on...... :twocents:
ozazure
06-27-2012, 09:43 PM
There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):
How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.
It may have taken her a while to come to the realisation that this wasn't a missing person - she knows the marriage is rocky, god knows what GBC said about Allison's mental state, she might have genuinely thought Allison might go missing of her own accord. Like the poster who has been involved with the BC's, she wrote of coming to a slow realisation that GBC might be responsible ... I think it is normal to assume the best if you know the person. I imagine TM might have a lot of resistance to seeing her lover that way.
So if it took them several meetings for it to sink in, I don't think that means she was trying to protect him. She may have been sharing information about her dealings with him while thinking he was innocent, because why wouldn't you? Unlike GBC she wouldn't have known there was a reason to lie like he did about the facetime calls. So they could be approaching her versus her seeking them out - and she may have been cooperating fully.
Ultimately it seems she gave up a lot of information, far more than the BC seniors have, and none of it very flattering to herself. She is prepared to expose her own role in this tragedy. So far the BC seniors are not co-operating. So while I am not going to invite TM around to my house for dinner with my hubby, I think she is a lot less of a dubious character than many others in this mess.
Lu-Lu
06-27-2012, 09:43 PM
As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?
It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ;) ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.
However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.
The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.
BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.
In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?
Not all men think as you do. When it comes to fidelity, I believe there are 3 type of men.
Those that are happily married and the thought to have an affair would never cross their mind.
Those that are not happily married but still the thought to have an affair would never cross their mind. They would end their marriage before starting a new relationship.
And then the rest... Those that actively seek out other relationships whilst married.
My ex BIL was from group #3. I suspect that GBC is aswell.
DunnoZo
06-27-2012, 09:48 PM
As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?
It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ;) ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.
However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.
The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.
BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.
In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?
Thank you, Dr. Watson, you've stated beautifully what I believe and hope to have in my marriage as well.. otherwise, I'd be thinkin' you're kinda cute..
BrissyLass
06-27-2012, 09:52 PM
There's a big difference between 'assisting police' and voluntarily going to the police (without having to be asked) with information that may or may not be relevant to the investigation. I realise TM has given statements to the police, and she has, at least in some form, cooperated (based on MSM reports), but my question is (which hasn't been addressed in MSM):
How long it took her to speak with police the first time (i.e. did they meet with her in the first few days), and did SHE approach the police, or did THE POLICE have to go to her. The difference between these two types of meeting are massive in this context, IMO.
all good questions that I want the answers to as well and perhaps that information will come out down the track
and just on that point, sort of....the report in MSM about the other two mistresses that GBC had that TM knew nothing about?
Why is it that TM and her escapades with GBC were so prominent in the newspapers, but there has been nothing about the other two????
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:52 PM
It may have taken her a while to come to the realisation that this wasn't a missing person - she knows the marriage is rocky, god knows what GBC said about Allison's mental state, she might have genuinely thought Allison might go missing of her own accord. Like the poster who has been involved with the BC's, she wrote of coming to a slow realisation that GBC might be responsible ... I think it is normal to assume the best if you know the person. I imagine TM might have a lot of resistance to seeing her lover that way.
So if it took them several meetings for it to sink in, I don't think that means she was trying to protect him. She may have been sharing information about her dealings with him while thinking he was innocent, because why wouldn't you? Unlike GBC she wouldn't have known there was a reason to lie like he did about the facetime calls. So they could be approaching her versus her seeking them out - and she may have been cooperating fully.
Ultimately it seems she gave up a lot of information, far more than the BC seniors have, and none of it very flattering to herself. She is prepared to expose her own role in this tragedy. So far the BC seniors are not co-operating. So while I am not going to invite TM around to my house for dinner with my hubby, I think she is a lot less of a dubious character than many others in this mess.
That's a really good way of putting it. I'm just so uncertain about TM at this point. Guess I will have to wait to see if more detail comes out at the next hearing. Whilst my feelings about those who become involved with married people are strong and unwaivering, I still have questions about TM's involvement in this case - not necessarily in terms of Allison's murder directly, but her associations with GBC/B-C's before and after the event, as well as her motives in becoming a witness for the prosecution.
Bayside
06-27-2012, 09:53 PM
Hmm! Perhaps that's the 'psychiatrists Brisbane West' who he googled..?
That is what I thought his angle might be too.
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 09:54 PM
From my understanding when reading MSM, a former female colleague was interviews by QPS very early in the investigation and the general consensus is that it was TM. If this is so, had the questioning taken place before or after investigating GBC's hard drive and phone ? If it was before, can we assume TM volunteered the information ?
IMO
JMO
MOO
Looks like Police first spoke to TM on 25 April according to this article
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226338602877
J-Diggety
06-27-2012, 09:55 PM
Actually these threads are to discuss the crime.
I tend to ignore posts I disagree with but I have become disenchanted with the amount of venom fellow Aussies will throw at each other if someone has a different view. You can't get to the bottom of anything unless you look at every angle.
This was an interesting thread to follow at the start but getting to exclusive now, so I will say goodbye to all, thanks for the insights and giggles.
Not aimed at the poster quoted just a general observation.
Poignant and timely post. This started off as a thread about a crime and a victim. The line that separated sleuthing the crime, and making it personal, as seems to be on any Aussie forum (I’m on a few), disappeared threads ago.
There is still much more to be discussed about the crime.
For those who don’t like the opposite view (and I don’t necessarily take it in this case), need to look at form an analytical point of view. Until something is proven, you have to test your hypothesis (best guess). The devils advocate approach continually tests what you know, what you think and what you want to know more about. You need to ask, how else could it have happened? In this case, I cant see any other option but the accused. There are so many holes in his story that you cant believe otherwise. And i am with the majority here in thinking this.
This is not to say you cant have an opinion without getting shot down. Counter arguing an opinion is a much more measured and appropriate approach, than taking the emotive stance and blasting others for sharing that view.
TM is a fool and guilty of adultery, and nothing more at this stage.
As for EBC not visiting her son (assumed), she may have her whole family ripped apart and be completely free of any knowledge. If this is the case, I do feel for her. if not, well that’s another thought.
This site is about the crime and the victim, nothing more.
The talk of facebook, 7 page spreads in the news, people spotting for salacious purposes denigrates the basis for what this site is set up for.
I hope and pray that her family, especially her kids never have to read any of these threads and are kept away from it.
The police have a job and I think are doing he best they can.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 09:57 PM
Looks like Police first spoke to TM on 25 April according to this article
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226338602877
I can't get this link to open - says page not found?
J-Diggety
06-27-2012, 10:03 PM
I can't get this link to open - says page not found?
same here
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 10:03 PM
I can't get this link to open - says page not found?
Yes sorry I will try and look for it, I had posted this link up in thread 28 about this.
kailee
06-27-2012, 10:04 PM
I scratched my leg 5 or so days ago. I don't know how, or on what.
Interesting to see the stages the scratch went through: from a raised welt, to a scab, to a bit of a faint scar. most noticeable were the 2 first stages, welt and scab.
Strange that GBC stayed in hospital on day 3-5, when I am guessing his scratches were scabbing. Got me thinking, perhaps the 'accident' and 2 day hospitalisation was to steer clear of media photographers during the scab phase?
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 10:09 PM
As one of the few (apparently) males on here, can I just stick my head into the lion's den and make a point from the man's perspective?
It takes two to tango, and as a (very) happily married man myself, I have been "targeted" by the odd woman over the years (maybe "odd" reflects their taste?? ;) ). And I should point out that MOST of these have been married women.
However, the thoughts of the disastrous consequences of getting involved, and what it would mean to my own marriage, completely over-rode the temptations of the moment, no matter how flattering they may have been to one's ego.
The thought of destroying my own marriage doesn't even bear thinking about - BUT - that's because I have a beautiful wife who is also my best friend and soul mate, and a marriage that I value extremely highly.
BUT - and here's the thing - if the BC marriage was already at the stage - for whatever reasons - that they were having problems, then the consequences of his actions may not have been able to over-ride the temptations and ego-stroking that were being offered. Of course, we do not know who made the first play between GBC and TM, and I am in no way defending or blaming either party. As somebody already posted - these things happen - it's human nature.
In my case, the marriage is something to be treasured and there is no way that I would do anything to jeopardize that. But for someone who is in a rocky marriage, then temptation may rule the day....
We just don't know what was going on in the marriage, so we shouldn't really pass judgement. There are at least two sides to the story - or in this case - maybe three sides?
Well said Dr Watson - you sound like my first husband. Now all I have to do is find him!! Have you got any brothers?
Sleuthilicious
06-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.
She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At my own peril I will fess up...
I met my husband some 15 years ago at work. He was married. It was well known (admitted by his then wife, her colleagues, his colleagues and their families) that the marriage had been rocky for a long time. They made a decision to remain together until their 2 children finished school. This was fine with him until he met me. He realised very quickly that he didn't want to stay in a bad marriage.
We didn't have an illicit affair but we spent a lot of time together talking etc. Some would say that an emotional affair is just as bad. He told her about me and that he was leaving. She's made his life a living hell ever since but we take it on the chin as we were inappropriate and she is angry.
All this time later she is still bitter, it has not done her any favours as her kids (now grown) have a wonderful relationship with me and their Dad. We now have a beautiful 2 year old (she calls Satans spawn). He is adored by his older siblings and their relationship with him makes my heart sing. My relationship with my husbands family is wonderful (because they like to see him happy and they know how long he tried to make his marriage work). My family also adore him. He helps me care for my Mum with such kindness.
People always say "once a cheater, always a cheater...". I don't believe this. I thoroughly trust my husband.
TM made a mistake. GBC was the one responsible to his marriage. Meeting someone and falling in love regardless of their marital situation is not a crime. Morally reprehensible...perhaps. Everyone could have made better choices here. GBC could have kept his pants zipped, TM could have refused a married man and Allison could have left him when she discovered the affair. It was a culmination of disastrous choices and GBC's narcissistic disregard for the mother of his children that lead to the horror of Allison's demise. If he killed her, then he and only he is responsible.
I wrote this on an iPad whilst being climbed over by my toddler so please excuse typos :)
All MOO, IMO & JMO of course.
DrWatson
06-27-2012, 10:12 PM
Well said Dr Watson - you sound like my first husband. Now all I have to do is find him!! Have you got any brothers?
:floorlaugh: Thankee kindly :)
Completely off-topic, but your post reminds me of a classic line from "Two and a half men" on TV. Charlie's mother meets a handsome man and says "Wow - you look just like my fourth husband".
Him: "How many times have you been married then?"
Her: "Three....."
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 10:12 PM
Yes sorry I will try and look for it, I had posted this link up in thread 28 about this.
Ok found it hope this one works
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/new-development-in-search-for-missing-mother-allison-baden-clay/story-e6freoof-1226338602877
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 10:15 PM
:floorlaugh: Thankee kindly :)
Completely off-topic, but your post reminds me of a classic line from "Two and a half men" on TV. Charlie's mother meets a handsome man and says "Wow - you look just like my fourth husband".
Him: "How many times have you been married then?"
Her: "Three....."
That show - they're always stealing my lines!! :crazy::crazy:
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:18 PM
The picture of the one on his neck I posted which a lot of people scoffed at seemed quite deep and IMO caused a scar.
I saw that one on the neck, it appeared quite noticable. Just didn't know how deep the ones on the chest were supposed to be. the interesting thing on the face ones.. Apparently GBC told police it was from cutting himself with an old razor while shaving.. yet they said they appeared consistent with fingernail scratches(thats right isn't it?).. yet he must have told his sister he fell over and scratched his head/face.. I remember her saying in an interview that he had fallen over and bumped/scratched his head in response to the being asked about the scratches. No wonder Det. Ainsworth said he had given them a version of events in relation to the scratches..obviously given some other versions to family also. (like the walking story)
Ms Annie
06-27-2012, 10:20 PM
June 13, 2012
At 3pm, Mr Baden-Clay was arrested at the Toowong Towers car park. Police allege the scratches on Mr Baden-Clay's face have scarred and have been "partially obscured by beard growth".
He is charged with murder and interfering with a corpse.
June 14, 2012
A government medical officer advises police a shaving cut is "usually a epidermal nick and is not likely to scar given that they don't break the dermis. A non-intimate forensic order is requested to shave the relevant part of Mr Baden-Clay's face, examine and take photograph of the injuries".
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z2EXLZR2
Thanks App0leblossom _ I was "howled down" when I suggested that he grew the beard to disguise the injuries (and their aftermath).!
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:22 PM
April 21, 2012
Mr Baden-Clay voluntarily attended the Indooroopilly Police Station with his lawyers and voluntarily provided a DNA sample and allowed police to take photos of his body.
Scratches and abrasions on his chest, torso and neck were photographed.
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/taking-the-fifth-the-case-against-alleged-wifekiller-gerard-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz1z285ldY1
Thanks, I didn't mean I had not seen the scratches on the chest mentioned. I meant I had not seen them mention if they were deep or just 'abrasions'..
squizzey1
06-27-2012, 10:23 PM
Poignant and timely post. This started off as a thread about a crime and a victim. The line that separated sleuthing the crime, and making it personal, as seems to be on any Aussie forum (I’m on a few), disappeared threads ago.
There is still much more to be discussed about the crime.
For those who don’t like the opposite view (and I don’t necessarily take it in this case), need to look at form an analytical point of view. Until something is proven, you have to test your hypothesis (best guess). The devils advocate approach continually tests what you know, what you think and what you want to know more about. You need to ask, how else could it have happened? In this case, I cant see any other option but the accused. There are so many holes in his story that you cant believe otherwise. And i am with the majority here in thinking this.
This is not to say you cant have an opinion without getting shot down. Counter arguing an opinion is a much more measured and appropriate approach, than taking the emotive stance and blasting others for sharing that view.
TM is a fool and guilty of adultery, and nothing more at this stage.
As for EBC not visiting her son (assumed), she may have her whole family ripped apart and be completely free of any knowledge. If this is the case, I do feel for her. if not, well that’s another thought.
This site is about the crime and the victim, nothing more.
The talk of facebook, 7 page spreads in the news, people spotting for salacious purposes denigrates the basis for what this site is set up for.
I hope and pray that her family, especially her kids never have to read any of these threads and are kept away from it.
The police have a job and I think are doing he best they can.
TM is not the adulterer she is an adulterers mistress nearly as bad. but i doubt she was directly involved. may have helped gbc later JMOO
Fuskier
06-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Hypothetically, what some would like to say to 'other woman' here is:
This affair was alleged to have been going on since 2008. He was a married man. You had a choice. Pursuer/pursued irrelevant. You both engaged in this relationship of convenience not for a few weeks, or months, but for the past 4 years. Allegedly, you both associated in public with disregard for his marriage or the feelings of his wife and family. There was no respect for Allison. You now find yourself associated with the alleged murderer - who was also philandering on you - a devastating situation you would rather not be in. But, the mother of 3 little children has been murdered, her life tragically ended at the hands of her alleged murderer. Her little girls will not have their mother to help raise them or be there for the significant events in their lives. The best you can do now is assist QPolice to the best of your ability. You may redeem yourself to some degree in the eyes of the some. My opinion only, based on MSM, not fact.
squizzey1
06-27-2012, 10:29 PM
Hypothetically, what some would like today to 'other woman' here is:
This affair was alleged to have been going on since 2008. He was a married man. You had a choice. Pursuer/pursued irrelevant. You both engaged in this relationship of convenience not for a few weeks, or months, but for the past 4 years. Allegedly, you both associated in public with disregard for his marriage or the feelings of his wife and family. There was no respect for Allison. You now find yourself associated with the alleged murderer - who was also philandering on you - a devastating situation you would rather not be in. But, the mother of 3 little children has been murdered, her life tragically ended at the hands of her alleged murderer. Her little girls will not have their mother to help raise them or be there for the significant events in their lives. The best you can do now is assist QPolice to the best of your ability. You may redeem yourself to some degree in the eyes of the some. My opinion only, drawn from MSM, not fact.
agree entirely IF there is anything she can help police with
J-Diggety
06-27-2012, 10:34 PM
TM is not the adulterer she is an adulterers mistress nearly as bad. but i doubt she was directly involved. may have helped gbc later JMOO
Ta for that, missed it :D
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 10:35 PM
Ok found it hope this one works
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/new-development-in-search-for-missing-mother-allison-baden-clay/story-e6freoof-1226338602877
So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?
Am I right my interpretation?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 10:36 PM
I missed & can't find the scratch mark pics :( Sorry but anyone have a link? TIA
UnfoldingTruth
06-27-2012, 10:40 PM
I have spent days reading through these forums.
First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.
My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!
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Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?
Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!
She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.
It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!
It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!
It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.
No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.
She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!
He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
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Hi, welcome. In regards to your comment that TM's life will never be the same again.. I would also like to point out neither will Allisons girls lives or her familys or anyone involved in this or affected by it. And Allisons life is no more..
I agree we should not tar and feather someone and proclaim their guilt with no knowledge or facts. And things such as Tm's appearance should not really come into it. However I don't completely absolve her of any responsibility in having an affair with a married man. I agree it sounds as though GBC was a repeat offender in regards to affairs and womanizing. But as I said I do believe the women involved bear just some responsibility if they had knowledge he was a married man..cleary TM did know this. I am certainly not saying she takes the mountain of blame..and you are right that we don't know it was her who gave GBC an ultimatum. And we don't know if she knew anything of what he was allegedly capable of.. but I don't think to make the analogy that because Allison didn't, she would not of either.. We really do not know, but it is entirely possible that at some point she did have an understanding.. Maybe not.. I would think if GBC phones after his wife goes missing and says he needs to lay low for awhile, there would be some concern or thought on her part. And maybe there was, maybe she did tell police that..
IMO
kailee
06-27-2012, 10:42 PM
I missed & can't find the scratch mark pics :( Sorry but anyone have a link? TIA
if only we could have seen what the scratches were like while he was in hospital. noticible scabs I'm guessing.
not that we didn't know the car 'accident' wasn't planned to start with...
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 10:45 PM
So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?
Am I right my interpretation?
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Yes I would agree with you on this, not sure about the journal though, as far as I know it hasnt been reported when they actually had possession of this.
mouse detective
06-27-2012, 10:53 PM
I have a story to tell which I want you to ponder. Someone I know had an affair with a married man - it lasted about 9 months before his wife found out.
About a month later he tried to make contact with my friend but she refused to get involved. He used every excuse under the sun to have to see her but she flatly refused and forced him to deal with her work colleague if he required anything relating to their common business dealings.
After 3 months of this the wife made contact with my friend and accused her of continuing to see her husband which of course she denied. The wife was highly irrational and not listening - the phone went silent.
The next moment the husband called her and said she should leave her office - his wife is very irrational and was coming to confront her. My friend didn't know what to do - leave or stay in the office. She decided to leave and as she was leaving the wife was approaching and she attacked her, punching her, pulling her hair and then jammed her keys into her head - my friend's head was bleeding like crazy and she needed several stitches in the wound. The police were called and a complaint was lodged but my friend dropped the charges.
Now I ask you - had my friend died as a result of that attack, how do you think the media would have portrayed the wife, the husband and my friend?
marlywings
06-27-2012, 10:53 PM
I'll try this again...HeartRuledHead...do you know for a fact TM isn't involved in any way with the murder??...
Or any other members...do any of you know if she's been crossed off the list by police??
Curiousasacat
06-27-2012, 10:57 PM
I am calm. :-)
I certainly to have sympathy for Allison's poor family. I can only imagine how heart broken they are and how shattered their lives now are.
I mean no disrespect to Allison's memory nor her family by standing on support of TM's innocence in Allison's murder.
I wasn't defending the affair, just saying simply and truly that they happen. It's a regrettable fact of life.
I am saying allowing your heart to rule your head is a question of morals but it does not make you a criminally minded person who could be responsible or even support someone else who commits murder. As some have indicated in this thread.
I do not believe for one moment that TM had any idea that GBC would ever be capable of such a awful act.
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Ok, I apologize for this abrupt question. If you are still here HRH do you know if she has an alibi for that evening???
Keentoknow
06-27-2012, 11:01 PM
So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?
Am I right my interpretation?
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H Heart.
Would you remember the date that TM gave her first statement to police.
I remember seeing her in a CIB car before Allison was found. Cannot find where it states that FM phoned police....I am sure it was in the same paper. Thanks
Straitfan
06-27-2012, 11:02 PM
Poignant and timely post. This started off as a thread about a crime and a victim. The line that separated sleuthing the crime, and making it personal, as seems to be on any Aussie forum (I’m on a few), disappeared threads ago.
There is still much more to be discussed about the crime.
For those who don’t like the opposite view (and I don’t necessarily take it in this case), need to look at form an analytical point of view. Until something is proven, you have to test your hypothesis (best guess). The devils advocate approach continually tests what you know, what you think and what you want to know more about. You need to ask, how else could it have happened? In this case, I cant see any other option but the accused. There are so many holes in his story that you cant believe otherwise. And i am with the majority here in thinking this.
This is not to say you cant have an opinion without getting shot down. Counter arguing an opinion is a much more measured and appropriate approach, than taking the emotive stance and blasting others for sharing that view.
TM is a fool and guilty of adultery, and nothing more at this stage.
As for EBC not visiting her son (assumed), she may have her whole family ripped apart and be completely free of any knowledge. If this is the case, I do feel for her. if not, well that’s another thought.
This site is about the crime and the victim, nothing more.
The talk of facebook, 7 page spreads in the news, people spotting for salacious purposes denigrates the basis for what this site is set up for.
I hope and pray that her family, especially her kids never have to read any of these threads and are kept away from it.
The police have a job and I think are doing he best they can.
Great post and while it is about the crime and the victim given human nature, think it is sometimes hard to seperate one's self from the matters which contributed to the crime... Not just on Aussie forms, happens all the time on the US crimes.
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 11:04 PM
So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?
Am I right my interpretation?
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Is there something relevant to this question that you know.
Strangeworld
06-27-2012, 11:05 PM
I have a story to tell which I want you to ponder. Someone I know had an affair with a married man - it lasted about 9 months before his wife found out.
About a month later he tried to make contact with my friend but she refused to get involved. He used every excuse under the sun to have to see her but she flatly refused and forced him to deal with her work colleague if he required anything relating to their common business dealings.
After 3 months of this the wife made contact with my friend and accused her of continuing to see her husband which of course she denied. The wife was highly irrational and not listening - the phone went silent.
The next moment the husband called her and said she should leave her office - his wife is very irrational and was coming to confront her. My friend didn't know what to do - leave or stay in the office. She decided to leave and as she was leaving the wife was approaching and she attacked her, punching her, pulling her hair and then jammed her keys into her head - my friend's head was bleeding like crazy and she needed several stitches in the wound. The police were called and a complaint was lodged but my friend dropped the charges.
Now I ask you - had my friend died as a result of that attack, how do you think the media would have portrayed the wife, the husband and my friend?
That is a truly awful story for everyone involved. Must have been very scary. No level of violence should be condoned, regardless of any sense of revenge or anger. The media would probably love it because of the drama and level of discussion it would generate.
I hope your friend has recovered well. Just out of curiosity, did your friend know she was dating a married man - if so, can you shed any light on why she made this decision? Understand if that's too much info to share. I'm really curious as to why some women (and men) make this conscious choice - it just bamboozles me. I've heard the justification that you can't help who you love, it just happened, etc, but that just seems like emotional immaturity to me - most of us experience strong feelings (good and bad) at one point or another, but most can rationalise before acting on these, particularly if drawn out over an extended period of time. Though it doesn't sound like the wife had that ability to rationalise!
Sheerluck Holmes
06-27-2012, 11:06 PM
H Heart.
Would you remember the date that TM gave her first statement to police.
I remember seeing her in a CIB car before Allison was found. Cannot find where it states that FM phoned police....I am sure it was in the same paper. Thanks
As the link suggests she first spoke to Police on 25 April, cant ever remember reading that TM had phone police.
HeartRuledHead
06-27-2012, 11:07 PM
The only thing I know that isn't already public knowledge regarding Toni has nothing to do with the affair with GBC nor the murder of ABC.
I am confident the police thought to ask of her whereabouts on the night.
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