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JBean
07-26-2012, 02:04 AM
We don't know a lot about JH's psych profile but we can put some of the pieces together here.

be civil to each other please. None of us know what the truth is at this point so stick to the facts and any speculation should be based on those facts.

Do not make accusations towards the family..at all. We do not know the dynamics. If this should change the rule will change with it.

Thanks.

Liz
07-26-2012, 03:40 AM
Found this information about JH's studies (Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders) at UC.

Of particular interest to me, is what they were covering in April. Did JH perhaps begin to realize that some of that symptomolgy he was studying was reflecting somewhat of a mirror image of himself? Or, did he possibly seize upon an opportunity of evil to massacre people, and use the symptomolgy that may have been presented via his education, as his possible defense? Wish I knew.

All of April's coursework piques my interest, but in particular, his studies during the period of April 3rd - April 12th:

April 3 Jason Tregellas, Ph.D. Schizophrenia-- Overview, ImagingPsychiatry

April 5 Karen Stevens, Ph.D. Schizophrenia -- Animal Models Psychiatry

April 10 Randy Ross, M.D. Childhood PsychosisPsychiatry

April 12 Cathy Adams, Ph.D. Schizophrenia -- Neuroanatomy andPsychiatry Development


Here is a presentation JH was scheduled to give:

May 8 STUDENT PRESENTATIONS
1) (name redacted) Epilepsy
2) James Holmes MicroRNA Biomarkers

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/100612191/James-Holmes-Class-PDF

What do you think?

Liz
07-26-2012, 04:59 AM
Profile of Aurora shooting suspect keeps getting murkier
July 23, 2012 9:00 am


AURORA, Colo. - Three days after the mass shooting at a Batman movie screening in Colorado, the profile of the suspected killer has only become more ambiguous and confounding.

At first, the image of James E. Holmes was of an incredibly smart, hopelessly shy young man who barely spoke - a loner isolated in a brilliant mind.

Then people came forward and said, yes he was quiet, but he had circles of friends with whom he joked around and socialized. He was a counselor at a camp in the hills above Glendale, Calif., in 2008, and snapshots from camp show him beaming.

More: http://herald-review.com/news/national/profile-of-aurora-shooting-suspect-keeps-getting-murkier/article_b27a87b8-d4cb-11e1-b1d1-0019bb2963f4.html

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 05:40 AM
Liz, I liked the way you posed the questions in the first post on this thread. He studied schizophrenia, and that's what he may have or is trying to use the symptomolgy.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/schizophrenia/

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 05:49 AM
Colorado shooting a reminder that psychiatry, not gun laws, needs fixing

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/25/colorado-shooting-reminder-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/


Not sure I agree with him in regards to some sort of screening process but interesting concept nonetheless.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 06:16 AM
The suspect is not the only sicko.

The sickening tweets of internet users with 'crushes' on Batman killer James Holmes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179107/James-Holmes-Sickening-tweets-girls-crushes-cute-Denver-Batman-killer.html

Liz
07-26-2012, 08:10 AM
Colorado Shooting Suspect Was One Of A Handful Of Students Accepted To Neuroscience Ph.D. Program
**** Rogers|Jul. 23, 2012, 4:04 PM


The man accused of opening fire during a midnight premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises" had been part of a graduate program that focuses specifically on how the nervous system processes information and accepts just five or six students each year, school authorities said Monday.

James Holmes was one of about 35 students in the highly selective program, UC-Denver Graduate School Dean Barry Shur said in a news conference livestreamed by Reuters.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/james-holmes-phd-program-2012-7#ixzz21jIGV79H

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 08:17 AM
The MicroRNA presentation had to do with cancer research and not psychology. Is that correct?

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:21 AM
The MicroRNA presentation had to do with cancer research and not psychology. Is that correct?

I don't think that's correct. He would likely be making a presentation related to neuroscience, not cancer.

Liz
07-26-2012, 08:41 AM
The MicroRNA presentation had to do with cancer research and not psychology. Is that correct?

I'm not really sure. I'd think something more neurologically related .. like possibly Alzheimers? Or, maybe cancer, as in brain tumors? I don't know.

According to the following link, it's not clear as to whether he ever made the presentation.

http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/5204839


ETA: Sorry jjenny ... didn't see your reply as I was googling to try to find the correct answer for ~n/t~.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 08:42 AM
I don't think that's correct. He would likely be making a presentation related to neuroscience, not cancer.

Well, in one of the JVM shows cancer was mentioned so it could have been any number of diseases. We don't know what his presentation focused on.


What is MicroRNA?

Recent microRNA News
Research finds new gene involved in epilepsy
New research conducted by neuroscientists from the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) published in Nature Medicine has identified a new gene involved in epilepsy and could potentially provide...
Researchers discover potential drug targets that might reduce ventilator-induced lung inflammation
When hospital patients need assistance breathing and are placed on a mechanical ventilator for days at a time, their lungs react to the pressure generated by the ventilator with an out-of-control immu...
Targeted regulation of microRNA-125b may lead to effective prostate cancer therapies
A small, naturally occurring nucleic acid sequence, called a microRNA, known to regulate a number of different cancers, appears to alter the activity of the androgen receptor, which plays a critical r...
Positive results from Alnylam’s ALN-TTR02 Phase I trial on TTR-mediated amyloidosis
Alnylam Pharmaceuticals, Inc., a leading RNAi therapeutics company, announced today the achievement of positive clinical results from its Phase I trial with ALN-TTR02, an RNAi therapeutic targeting th...
New paper documents discovery of novel lipids, including MC3
Alnylam Pharmaceuticals, a leading RNAi therapeutics company, and collaborators announced today the publication of a scientific paper documenting the discovery of novel lipids used in second generatio...

more at the link

http://www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-MicroRNA.aspx

Liz
07-26-2012, 08:45 AM
I doubt JVM does the sleuthing like we do here. ;)

I really feel JH's presentation had more to do with what was (then) his present course of studies, which was central nervous system related. JMO

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100612191/James-Holmes-Class-PDF

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:47 AM
Since he was studying neuroscience, I think it's a fair guess his presentation would be related to neuroscience. Obviously the title of the course indicate they are discussing psychiatric and neurological disorders, not cancer.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 09:56 AM
The suspect is not the only sicko.

The sickening tweets of internet users with 'crushes' on Batman killer James Holmes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179107/James-Holmes-Sickening-tweets-girls-crushes-cute-Denver-Batman-killer.html

I think it is rather bizarre to condemn those that say he is nice looking as "sickos". His picture is all over the press, of course people will comment on his looks, many will make insulting comments and others will find him nice looking.

I personally thought he was good looking when I saw the first picture, the pics that came out later with the weird red hair were not at all flattering.

songline
07-26-2012, 10:04 AM
Profile of Aurora shooting suspect keeps getting murkier
July 23, 2012 9:00 am



More: http://herald-review.com/news/national/profile-of-aurora-shooting-suspect-keeps-getting-murkier/article_b27a87b8-d4cb-11e1-b1d1-0019bb2963f4.html

Thank you - Great article.

Everything I read in this article only affirms my initial view of him. He is MI.
What kind of MI can only be determined by doctors who diagnose him.

songline
07-26-2012, 10:08 AM
Colorado shooting a reminder that psychiatry, not gun laws, needs fixing

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/25/colorado-shooting-reminder-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/


Not sure I agree with him in regards to some sort of screening process but interesting concept nonetheless.

Good article.... Thank you

The first photo of JH is on here.... IMHO - MI is written all over his face. And the other photo's just make it more clear - TO ME


Just a snip..........


The case of James Holmes has everything, however, to do with the fractured, fragmented, anemic state of psychiatry in America and our unwillingness to educate the public how to recognize symptoms of mental illness and what to do when those symptoms are identified.

Because, in the end, it will become clear that more than one person -- and probably several, including family, friends, neighbors, classmates, health care personnel or educators -- knew or should have known that James Holmes was confused, losing sight of reality, experiencing severe mood swings, withdrawing from the world around him, experiencing violent fantasies or all of the above.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/25/colorado-shooting-reminder-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/#ixzz21jnDKJUI

jjenny
07-26-2012, 10:14 AM
Good article.... Thank you

Just a snip..........



Because, in the end, it will become clear that more than one person -- and probably several, including family, friends, neighbors, classmates, health care personnel or educators -- knew or should have known that James Holmes was confused, losing sight of reality, experiencing severe mood swings, withdrawing from the world around him, experiencing violent fantasies or all of the above. Can't lock him up for red hair, being withdrawn, and even for having violent fantasies. It's not illegal to have violent fantasies.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/25/colorado-shooting-reminder-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/#ixzz21jnDKJUI

Nice to know there are psychics among us. In the end, it will become clear? And this person knows this how? And even assuming somebody noticed that JH has become "withdrawn" nothing can be done to him against his will, unless it's known he is a direct danger to himself or others. And being withdrawn is not even close.

songline
07-26-2012, 10:17 AM
The suspect is not the only sicko.

The sickening tweets of internet users with 'crushes' on Batman killer James Holmes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179107/James-Holmes-Sickening-tweets-girls-crushes-cute-Denver-Batman-killer.html

Sadly there are far more MI folks then we know. :(
IMHO - someone attracted to a murderer is not 100% either.
Sadly MI has a stigma, and hiding it is something most of them do well.

songline
07-26-2012, 10:22 AM
Nice to know there are psychics among us. In the end, it will become clear? And this person knows this how? And even assuming somebody noticed that JH has become "withdrawn" nothing can be done to him against his will, unless it's known he is a direct danger to himself or others. And being withdrawn is not even close.


I totally agree with that article... where I snipped a part….but you do not have to.

I have also sat at meetings, classes and support groups.
YES it is true; they all knew something was off, long before any diagnosis.
Believe anything you like. I could not care less.

jjenny
07-26-2012, 10:23 AM
I personally know nothing of the sort.
And there have been no diagnosis of any kind. And it's pretty much impossible to predict who will become a mass killer among many people with issues.

"It's awfully hard to generalize about these things," said Lawrence Steinberg, professor of psychology at Temple University and an expert in the psychology of adolescent development. "Some (mass murderers) have long histories of depression, others don't. Right now, we don't know yet about this guy's (Holmes) history. Some of these are loners, and he has been described as a loner, but many don't. Some are criminally aggressive before committing these crimes, others are not."
http://news.discovery.com/human/mass-killers-warning-signs-120726.html

songline
07-26-2012, 10:36 AM
I personally know nothing of the sort.
And there have been no diagnosis of any kind. And it's pretty much impossible to predict who will become a mass killer among many people with issues.

"It's awfully hard to generalize about these things," said Lawrence Steinberg, professor of psychology at Temple University and an expert in the psychology of adolescent development. "Some (mass murderers) have long histories of depression, others don't. Right now, we don't know yet about this guy's (Holmes) history. Some of these are loners, and he has been described as a loner, but many don't. Some are criminally aggressive before committing these crimes, others are not."
http://news.discovery.com/human/mass-killers-warning-signs-120726.html


Professionals are not allowed to say anything till he has been diagnosed.
and he will be in time. With time we will all know.


The fact that you say you don’t know. Does not begin to matter.
<modsnip>

21merc7
07-26-2012, 10:45 AM
A brief account of defendant when he was in 5th grade:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/what_happened_0fAtA3nYQNYefl92qO0NFI

21merc7
07-26-2012, 10:48 AM
Spitting in Jail Reports False


Sources familiar with the detention of theater shooting suspect James Holmes say his low-key detached demeanor has not changed since he was taken into custody early Friday morning.

According to knowledgeable sources, reports that Holmes was spitting at guards in jail are "simply false."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31303850/detail.html

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 10:59 AM
A syllabus


The MicroRNA presentation had to do with cancer research and not psychology. Is that correct?
A syllabus that lists Holmes as a student at the medical school shows that he may have taken a class in which he studied topics as diverse as substance abuse, schizophrenia, depression and other disorders.....

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/joker_went_postal_with_plot_5Gvy23sURWTyP7Nx68t6pJ #ixzz21hhr7Za9.

HMSHood
07-26-2012, 11:38 AM
This is based on what I have read of James Holmes.

Holmes has low tolerance for failure and mostly knows success. He expects everything is easy in life. His withdrawn nature is likely fueled by his fear of failure. I also noticed when he was an intern at Salk Institute, he did things his way, which suggest he is very stubborn. This may suggest he may have obsessive compulsive personality disorder as he is rigid in nature. Holmes likely looks down on other people as he has en elitist mentality, but does not show it.

So far, his childhood seems "normal" and he was mostly well liked. He moved to San Diego when he was a child, which would have an impact on him. In elementary school, he was well liked by all accounts.

The reports of Holmes's personality range from being recluse to someone who can be talkative suggest that Holmes is likely an ambivert than an introvert. Seung-Hui Cho was consistently described as quiet and asocial, unlike Holmes, who could be social. The video of him talking in 2006 shows he is not really that shy and more likely stems from public speaking.

BuzzieCat
07-26-2012, 12:31 PM
I like this article too:
http://news.discovery.com/human/james-holmes-murderers-snap-120724.html

But even here, the psychology of mass killers remains evasive. Plenty of people struggle with friendships, Newman said, and only a "tiny, tiny infinitesimal fraction of them [does] something like this."

DEPUTYDAWG
07-26-2012, 01:19 PM
On TV now:

"Experts suggest family pressure could have caused CO shooting suspect to snap"

I didn't get this Dr's name who is describing this. (Oh, Dr Alan Lipman)

Supposedly, there are now reports coming out that the father set "a very high standard" and the son was having a hard time living up to it.

Wonder where these "reports" are coming from.

ETA: Well this Dr Lipman got the timeline wrong, LOL. He said 3 weeks before this attack, he failed his exam. Ummmm, noooo, it was more like 6 weeks.

cece5300
07-26-2012, 01:20 PM
On Fox News, Megyn Kelly (sp?) is saying that JH WAS adopted, that he was NOT a straight A student (more like a B student), and that his father set high standards for him. They're talking about a strained relationship with his father and they're also saying that his mother urged him to seek counseling.

That's sad and all, but I'm still not going to hold his father responsible for setting high standards for his son. Lots of parents put pressure on their kids, and it's not right, but most kids do not become mass murderers because of it. I'm sure the father feels horrible enough and doesn't need to have blame placed on him.

Talking head on Fox is talking about schizophrenia, which is plausible for me. They're saying a psychotic break could trigger schizophrenia (like failing the oral exam). He's reiterating that that that does NOT excuse JH's behavior.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Not sure where the media is getting information that he was adopted. :waitasec:

pinkflamingo
07-26-2012, 01:27 PM
JH is now "faking" amnesia?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-claims-amnesia-article-1.1122289

HMSHood
07-26-2012, 01:31 PM
On Fox News, Megyn Kelly (sp?) is saying that JH WAS adopted, that he was NOT a straight A student (more like a B student), and that his father set high standards for him. They're talking about a strained relationship with his father and they're also saying that his mother urged him to seek counseling.

That's sad and all, but I'm still not going to hold his father responsible for setting high standards for his son. Lots of parents put pressure on their kids, and it's not right, but most kids do not become mass murderers because of it. I'm sure the father feels horrible enough and doesn't need to have blame placed on him.

Talking head on Fox is talking about schizophrenia, which is plausible for me. They're saying a psychotic break could trigger schizophrenia (like failing the oral exam). He's reiterating that that that does NOT excuse JH's behavior.

I have wondered what Holmes's relationship with his parents are like. I am not in any way blaming them. I have read he was adopted, but I have not seen much news report on that part.

Most mass murderers are not adopted. I cannot think of any one like that. Another thing that jumped at me is that he seemed well liked other he could be a bit stubborn at times.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Sadly there are far more MI folks then we know. :(
IMHO - someone attracted to a murderer is not 100% either.
Sadly MI has a stigma, and hiding it is something most of them do well.

Hibristophilia (attraction to dangerous individuals) is not considered a mental illness. It is probably more common than people realize, but usually it is only obvious when folks start sending fan mail to infamous killers.

Maybe quite a few of the folks are a little different, but then again who isn't?

21merc7
07-26-2012, 01:49 PM
Not sure where the media is getting information that he was adopted. :waitasec:


JH is now "faking" amnesia?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-claims-amnesia-article-1.1122289

I'd like to know where all this info is coming from. Perhaps adoption is public info? As far as family relationship, who is talking?

As far as his jail activities, someone is going to lose a job if any of this is true. The Judge just sent out an Amendment to the Gag Order as a warning and a clarification. I don't care if (I'm making up names and scenario here) Officer Susie is his guard, she calls Cousin Bernie in New York, Cousin Bernie sells a story for money, it still comes back to Officer Sue for telling to begin with. I have to question the jail behavior stories big time. moo

Liz
07-26-2012, 01:52 PM
Not sure where the media is getting information that he was adopted. :waitasec:

I remember reading that one of the deceased victim's parents stated that the police had told them that the perp was adopted.

Here we go .... I found a link:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/you_re_no_tough_guy_now_qCaDbL0bp6MXY8NiTX6x3K


A father of one of the dead victims told The Post that cops revealed to him that Holmes was adopted.

Also I just remembered that psychologist, Dr. Alan Lipman, who appeared on Megyn Kelly (FNC) a little while ago stated that JH's mom had urged him to get counseling.

PAXIMUS
07-26-2012, 02:16 PM
QUESTION: did JH fail his oral exam BEFORE he began to order the guns and tactical gear?


If so, that could suggest a psychotic break of some sort and that is what led to this change in behavior.

PAXIMUS
07-26-2012, 02:17 PM
Seems that is the case, he bought a rifle after failing. Interesting.

James Holmes Bought Rifle After Failing Oral Exam at University of Colorado


Although it does say he bought the high powered rifle after failing, it goes on to say he then added that to an already growing arsenal.


Accused movie theater gunman James Holmes purchased a high-powered rifle hours after failing a key oral exam at the University of Colorado, ABC News has learned.

Holmes added the weapon to his already growing arsenal June 7, hours after he took a key oral exam at the college. ABC News station KMGH-TV in Denver reported that he failed the exam. Three days later, he dropped out of the neurosciences program with no explanation.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UBGJubQ7WWc

Stash777
07-26-2012, 02:18 PM
Found this information about JH's studies (Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders) at UC.

Of particular interest to me, is what they were covering in April. Did JH perhaps begin to realize that some of that symptomolgy he was studying was reflecting somewhat of a mirror image of himself? Or, did he possibly seize upon an opportunity of evil to massacre people, and use the symptomolgy that may have been presented via his education, as his possible defense? Wish I knew.

All of April's coursework piques my interest, but in particular, his studies during the period of April 3rd - April 12th:

April 3 Jason Tregellas, Ph.D. Schizophrenia-- Overview, ImagingPsychiatry

April 5 Karen Stevens, Ph.D. Schizophrenia -- Animal Models Psychiatry

April 10 Randy Ross, M.D. Childhood PsychosisPsychiatry

April 12 Cathy Adams, Ph.D. Schizophrenia -- Neuroanatomy andPsychiatry Development


Here is a presentation JH was scheduled to give:

May 8 STUDENT PRESENTATIONS
1) (name redacted) Epilepsy
2) James Holmes MicroRNA Biomarkers

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/100612191/James-Holmes-Class-PDF

What do you think?

I'm still catching up on these threads (just been lurking up to now) but I wanted to address your first question. While in my undergrad psych program, I took a course in abnormal and clinical psychology. Symptoms of psych disorders fall on a continuum, and one must exhibit a certain number of those symptoms to a specific degree of severity before a diagnosis is given. Some people might exhibit one symptom to a very low degree, but that doesn't mean they actually have that disorder. It's also very easy to self diagnose these disorders when studying them in depth, which is one of the reasons why the grad programs I was looking to apply mandates all students in the program to see a therapist on a regular basis. I don't think other programs, such as the one JH was in, have this mandate. Just from my own personal experience, some of these courses can make you feel like you're crazy. I'm not saying this is the case with everyone or with JH, but I can see this being a possibility. And of course, it definitely doesn't mean someone is going to go on a rampage nor does it excuse someone who does. I can see, as a possibility, someone who already has an underlying psych issue and studying these types of disorders being a tipping point without seeking professional help in coping with their thoughts and managing their behaviors. Again, I'm not saying this is the case with JH, but it could be a possibility. All MOO, JMO, etc.

gitana1
07-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Profile of Aurora shooting suspect keeps getting murkier
July 23, 2012 9:00 am

More: http://herald-review.com/news/national/profile-of-aurora-shooting-suspect-keeps-getting-murkier/article_b27a87b8-d4cb-11e1-b1d1-0019bb2963f4.html

From the article:
"His grades were mediocre. I've heard him described as brilliant. This is extremely inaccurate."Holmes attended the Salk program between high school and college and performed poorly, Jacobson said. "He shouldn't have gotten into the summer program."


Jacobson also said Holmes was enormously stubborn and refused to follow instructions.
He said he set Holmes to work writing computer code for an experiment Jacobson had done involving a game of rock-paper-scissors, in which the computer always beats the human, no matter who goes first.
He said that although he urged Holmes to use one method of programming, Holmes insisted on using another that Jacobsen described as vastly more time consuming and complicated.
"He just refused," said Jacobson. "Finally, I said, 'Do it any way you can.' "
The work never got done. "He never completed the project. What he gave me was a complete mess," Jacobson said.
So one might add "stubborn" to the list of traits in the wispy profile of Holmes - except students who knew him say they don't particularly recall pronounced stubbornness at all.
"I think he just liked to share his opinions on stuff he really believes in, what's right," said a 26-year-old UC Riverside graduate who was in his lab group in 2008. "There were times he can come off arrogant. He definitely could."

To me, this sounds like a guy who believed himself to be much more important and intelligent than others judged him to be. When his beliefs about himself were not supported by others, I have a feeling his disappointment turned into narcissistic rage. Then, much like a domestic abuser who decides to kill his ex or take her children and kill them in order to hurt her, he decided to seek revenge and show those bastards who he really was, that he was more powerful, more intelligent and more important. That if they were not going to give him the recognition he deserved, he would get it another way, from the world.

These types are disgruntled egoists who feel life has shorted them, so they will simultaneously show the world and punish it. They don't care so much about the consequences. Some even choose to end their own life in the process. What's most important to these types is causing pain to others - to seek revenge, to punish and to become ultra famous as they do it.

Is something "wrong" with such a person? Well, of course. They have a withered soul. Is such a person so mentally disturbed that they cannot control their actions? That I do not believe for a moment.

There has been a debate on the threads about how even sociopaths have different brains and thus, the implication goes, they cannot control themselves. Burt science has shown that brain changes can be caused by the most minute things. Someone who is feeling happy shows brain changes. Someone feeling sad, shows brain changes. And so what? Those changes do not necessarily equate to a loss of will or control.

It is a chicken and egg argument. Does an evil heart lead to changes in brain chemistry? Or does brain chemistry lead to changes in one's heart? If we believe that criminal behavior is outside our control and is determined by the brain (something, BTW, that many feel racists have used for at least a century to prove that blacks are inherently prone to criminality), then why the heck do we have prisons at all? We should have sympathy for these poor sots who cannot control themselves and offer them treatment instead. All of them.

I for one think that choice, will, soul, all play a part in one's conduct, unless they are so ill or damaged that they cannot function at all - i.e. lack the ability to feed themselves, clothes themselves, etc.


I think it is rather bizarre to condemn those that say he is nice looking as "sickos". His picture is all over the press, of course people will comment on his looks, many will make insulting comments and others will find him nice looking.

I personally thought he was good looking when I saw the first picture, the pics that came out later with the weird red hair were not at all flattering.

Wow, really? People were tweeting that a guy who just murdered 12 innocent people and tried to kill 50 more, is "kinda hot", stating "I would hit that".

I'm sorry, but they ARE sickos, IMO. That is one of the most tasteless, offensive and insulting things to say in the face of such a tragedy. Wow, no wonder creeps like the Colorado murderer do what they do. Despite the incredible evil of such an act, despite the horror and pain it causes so many, people are not only ready and willing, just chomping at the bit, to excuse it, stating the poor guy has brain issues and deserves our sympathy and that everyone else is to blame, people are also willing to make statements about how "hot" he is and how much they would like to have sex with him.

That is really, really offensive to me, in the face of such devastation. It adds to the problem. It resolves nothing. :twocents:

Liz
07-26-2012, 02:25 PM
WHAT HAPPENED JAMES HOLMES? BY HIS FORMER TEACHER
PUBLISHED: 09:43 EST, 26 July 2012 | UPDATED: 11:36 EST, 26 July 2012

When I knew James Holmes, the Colorado shooter, he was Jimmy. I was his fifth-grade teacher and he lives in a tiny town of 5,000 called Castroville.

Recalling him at school, he was well-dressed, neat, wore glasses, liked to read and excelled in all academic areas. He had two really good friends, both sharp like him — in fact, top of the class.
<modsnip>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179377/James-Holmes-Father-Batman-actor-Heath-Ledger-said-son-associated-Colorado-gunman--emerges-victims-massacre-spared-costly-health-bills.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Padua
07-26-2012, 02:25 PM
Seems that is the case, he bought a rifle after failing. Interesting.

James Holmes Bought Rifle After Failing Oral Exam at University of Colorado


Although it does say he bought the high powered rifle after failing, it goes on to say he then added that to an already growing arsenal.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UBGJubQ7WWc

The article says he bought a rifle after the exams. But, he also bought other guns, equipment to make explosives, tacticle gear, etc. When did he START buying the equipment not just the one gun.

PAXIMUS
07-26-2012, 02:28 PM
The article says he bought a rifle after the exams. But, he also bought other guns, equipment to make explosives, tacticle gear, etc. When did he START buying the equipment not just the one gun.

Yea that is the question, were there any triggers just prior to whenever he started buying all this stuff, we know he got at least one rifle after failing but it implies he was stockpiling before he failed.


Reports say it took him four months to get it all delivered so June 7th he failed so sometime feb or march he started buying it seems.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Obviously arm chair my favorite
Still interest in other threads
anyone willing to get to other threads
copy paste post the address bar on all the other threads that were broken up 4?
then we can click
on address bar and short cut them on desktop

(i am left brain - hunting is fatiguing)
appreciate help!

Padua
07-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Yea that is the question, were there any triggers just prior to whenever he started buying all this stuff, we know he got at least one rifle after failing but it implies he was stockpiling before he failed.


Reports say it took him four months to get it all delivered so June 7th he failed so sometime feb or march he started buying it seems.

That time frame falls in the midterm time. I could be wrong, I don't know the schedule at his school.

gitana1
07-26-2012, 02:38 PM
On TV now:

"Experts suggest family pressure could have caused CO shooting suspect to snap"

I didn't get this Dr's name who is describing this. (Oh, Dr Alan Lipman)

Supposedly, there are now reports coming out that the father set "a very high standard" and the son was having a hard time living up to it.

Wonder where these "reports" are coming from.

ETA: Well this Dr Lipman got the timeline wrong, LOL. He said 3 weeks before this attack, he failed his exam. Ummmm, noooo, it was more like 6 weeks.

Yeah, and I get very tired of the terminology that he "snapped". Someone who plans for weeks, for months, has not snapped. Snapped would be more like that guy in Canada who suddenly lunged at a fellow, dozing bus passenger and decapitated him.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 02:39 PM
I remember reading that one of the deceased victim's parents stated that the police had told them that the perp was adopted.

Here we go .... I found a link:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/you_re_no_tough_guy_now_qCaDbL0bp6MXY8NiTX6x3K



Also I just remembered that psychologist, Dr. Alan Lipman, who appeared on Megyn Kelly (FNC) a little while ago stated that JH's mom had urged him to get counseling.

I find it interesting that the NY post is the only one printing these claims...and then of course all the others pick up on it.

I think I'll wait for actual confirmation on this one.

Liz
07-26-2012, 02:45 PM
I posted this in the Package Delivery thread but thought I'd link it here, too, as it is pertinent to this thread, as well:

Jul 26, 2012 - Experts react to accused gunman's notebook mailed to psychiatrist before movie massacre

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1755292713001/

Interesting contrast of opinions, eh?

gitana1
07-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Obviously arm chair my favorite
Still interest in other threads
anyone willing to get to other threads
copy paste post the address bar on all the other threads that were broken up 4?
then we can click
on address bar and short cut them on desktop

(i am left brain - hunting is fatiguing)
appreciate help!

Movie Theater Massacre in Colorado - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


To find the feeder thread just go to the top of the thread where you will see something like this: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/index.php) > Current Events > Crimes in the News > Movie Theater Massacre in Colorado > Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

You can then go to the thread you want. The one you want here would be : Movie Theater Massacre in Colorado, which I have linked above.

QueenD
07-26-2012, 03:00 PM
JH is now "faking" amnesia?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-claims-amnesia-article-1.1122289

Ah what a shame, and he doesn't like his food.


the worker said. “He complained once that he didn’t like the food . . . The guy killed 12 people, and he’s upset that he’s not getting a four-star meal?”

The former California honor student picks at his meals on some days, and doesn’t eat at all on others. A typical breakfast would include sausage and grits, while lunch could mean a ham sandwich

And his belly hurts..


“He’s claiming his belly hurts him,” the worker said

MO (Wonder how many of the surviving victims belly hurts?!) They have a reasaon to have a belly pain.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-claims-amnesia-article-1.1122289

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 03:01 PM
Yeah, and I get very tired of the terminology that he "snapped". Someone who plans for weeks, for months, has not snapped. Snapped would be more like that guy in Canada who suddenly lunged at a fellow, dozing bus passenger and decapitated him.

To me the term "snapped" doesn't necessarily mean sudden impulse. It could mean he cracked/snapped months ago or even years ago and his symptoms deteriorated without proper treatment (IF he is mentally ill - schizophrenia as an example).

It appears everything was "normal" up until 4 months ago when he started to purchase all this bomb making stuff, the apparel, etc. Fast forward 2 -3 months, he fails his oral. A month later, he goes on a rampage.

Something happened during that 4 or 5 month period prior to his breakdown or whatever term we want to use.

:moo:

zvzvzv
07-26-2012, 03:16 PM
this is exactly the plot law student killer Stephen Mcdaniel wrote
online about how to get away with a massacre.

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html

In another post from 2010, “SoL” wrote of how he’d kill religious demonstrators planning to attend the funeral of a fellow message-boarder’s brother, a fallen U.S. soldier...

21merc7
07-26-2012, 03:24 PM
this is exactly the plot law student killer Stephen Mcdaniel wrote
online about how to get away with a massacre.

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html

In another post from 2010, “SoL” wrote of how he’d kill religious demonstrators planning to attend the funeral of a fellow message-boarder’s brother, a fallen U.S. soldier...

zv;

I would love to read this, but the link is not working for me. Do you have another?

PAXIMUS
07-26-2012, 03:25 PM
zv;

I would love to read this, but the link is not working for me. Do you have another?

Me too!

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Could someone like JH be able to fool psychiatrists? I doubt it, imo

He can fake all he wants.

21merc7
07-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Could someone like JH be able to fool psychiatrists? I doubt it, imo

He can fake all he wants.

I would think not. The ones he will be seeing have seen thousands trying to fake every sort of illness imaginable just to get out of trouble, they have also seen just about every sort of illness.

They have very good b.s. meters usually.

thepinkdragon
07-26-2012, 03:31 PM
From the article:
Quote:
"His grades were mediocre. I've heard him described as brilliant. This is extremely inaccurate."Holmes attended the Salk program between high school and college and performed poorly, Jacobson said. "He shouldn't have gotten into the summer program."


Jacobson also said Holmes was enormously stubborn and refused to follow instructions.
He said he set Holmes to work writing computer code for an experiment Jacobson had done involving a game of rock-paper-scissors, in which the computer always beats the human, no matter who goes first.
He said that although he urged Holmes to use one method of programming, Holmes insisted on using another that Jacobsen described as vastly more time consuming and complicated.
"He just refused," said Jacobson. "Finally, I said, 'Do it any way you can.' "
The work never got done. "He never completed the project. What he gave me was a complete mess," Jacobson said.
So one might add "stubborn" to the list of traits in the wispy profile of Holmes - except students who knew him say they don't particularly recall pronounced stubbornness at all.
"I think he just liked to share his opinions on stuff he really believes in, what's right," said a 26-year-old UC Riverside graduate who was in his lab group in 2008. "There were times he can come off arrogant. He definitely could."


Considering JH was in a program that only allows a handful of people to enter each year I have to say that the above is the opinion of someone who really disliked JH and wants to discount any positive aspects of JH before he committed this horrific crime. Jacobsen sounds as if he is trying to distance himself from ever have been associated with JH. I would venture to say his allegations are rooted in resentment. It sounds as if he and Holmes did not get along and did not like the fact that JH has been described as brilliant. I have encountered attitudes from others like this myself in college and in the military. I am not necessarily defending JH but it annoys me that someone could just come out for his 15 minutes to slander a person just because they don't like them regardless of why they are now in the spotlight.

zvzvzv
07-26-2012, 03:34 PM
sorry, bad link.
amnesia / mental illness defense scenario by Stephen McDaniel

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html#storylink=cpy

Liz
07-26-2012, 03:34 PM
To me the term "snapped" doesn't necessarily mean sudden impulse. It could mean he cracked/snapped months ago or even years ago and his symptoms deteriorated without proper treatment (IF he is mentally ill - schizophrenia as an example).

It appears everything was "normal" up until 4 months ago when he started to purchase all this bomb making stuff, the apparel, etc. Fast forward 2 -3 months, he fails his oral. A month later, he goes on a rampage.

Something happened during that 4 or 5 month period prior to his breakdown or whatever term we want to use.

:moo:

Makes sense to me ~n/t~
(**Not that I'm saying it is what JH suffers from or if he suffers from anything, other than absolute evilness**).

Dr Archer, in the video in my post #46 above, says psychosis does not come on with an on-off switch. He stated it's waxes and wanes as your proceed over time. Then as you descend into madness, you have delusions and hallucinations.

I don't know what JH may or may not have, if anything; but this explanation sounds plausible to me.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 03:35 PM
I appreciate what you all have to say. I do not trust some of the news sources and experts yet.

We all believe mental illness is possible in some people. Many of us have been exposed to MI, and feel we can spot it. Do we already have enough info on JH to determine his condition? No.

Doctors usually don't diagnose any physical or mental condition without it meeting criteria.

Personally, I want to learn more about delusions and psychosis in general. How delusions can become a fixed belief in the mind interests me. I'm hearing of too many people that "just snapped" in our society. It almost seems the handy-dandy excuse - they just snapped. Oh, but then we find out she shot her brother in childhood, or something that might tell us it wasn't all that sudden.

Killing people is such a willful act, especially when you have to buy tons of equipment months ahead of time. Right now, no passes from me that he was too MI to stop himself.

Plus, there's con jobs even within MI. Did JH not stop himself from killing because he knew he could fake a MI? I don't know.

pinkflamingo
07-26-2012, 03:35 PM
this is exactly the plot law student killer Stephen Mcdaniel wrote
online about how to get away with a massacre.

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html

[I]I’d go outside, grab my kit out of the car, pop in a fresh mag, and proceed to slaughter the entire, bigoted group, never once doing so much as uttering a sound. When they are all dead (and they do need to all be DEAD), I’d sit down on the ground, with my gun several paces away from me, and just rock back and forward on the ground, eyes wide and blank.”

He goes on to write, “Afterwards, I’d remain in this state for at least a day -- no talking, no communication, blank, unfocused stares. I do not fall asleep, either. Eventually, when some new stimulus is introduced (a family member I haven’t seen, a picture of my brother, or something like that), I shake my head from side to side, blink rapidly, and look around in a panicked manner, asking where I am, what’s going on, if my family is okay, why I’m there, and when they ask, I’d say I had no memory of anything that happened after I arrived at the service.”

Near the end of the post, he wrote, “They’ll probably initiate charges, at which point the family will need to get a lawyer to argue that I had no knowledge of my actions and were not acting of my own volition when I acted. Keep the story consistent, and whenever I am asked about what happened, I look down and put a sad look on your face, relating what I was TOLD happened (as you have no memory of it). I might end up institutionalized for a while so they can try to figure out what caused the blackout, and they may take my guns from me as well as the ability to purchase more, but if I stuck to the story, it’s doubtful I’d end up in prison.”

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html#storylink=cpy/I]

sounds like this is the plan

21merc7
07-26-2012, 03:38 PM
sounds like this is the plan

Does to me too.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 03:42 PM
Makes sense to me ~n/t~
(**Not that I'm saying it is what JH suffers from or if he suffers from anything, other than absolute evilness**).

Dr Archer, in the video in my post #46 above, says psychosis does not come on with an on-off switch. He stated it's waxes and wanes as your proceed over time. Then as you descend into madness, you have delusions and hallucinations.

I don't know what JH may or may not have, if anything; but this explanation sounds plausible to me.


Dr. Archer is not the only one who has stated that in his opinion of psychosis. Dr. Drew has had a number of guests on his show giving the same opinion.

Based on what we know, he seems to fit that disease (or he could be faking) All have said there has to be a lot more pysch evaluations to be done on him before anyone knows for sure.

pinkflamingo
07-26-2012, 03:43 PM
Bingo. This is the only thing that has made sense so far to me--- he was mentally all there. Evil but not crazy. Let's just hope he doesn't get a CA jury that will let him walk.

~n/t~
07-26-2012, 03:48 PM
I'll have to read up on Stephen McDaniel. Did he get away with it and deemed him insane to stand trial?

KDOGG
07-26-2012, 03:50 PM
reminds me of the movie 'primal fear'

Liz
07-26-2012, 04:10 PM
Dr. Archer is not the only one who has stated that in his opinion of psychosis. Dr. Drew has had a number of guests on his show giving the same opinion.

Based on what we know, he seems to fit that disease (or he could be faking) All have said there has to be a lot more pysch evaluations to be done on him before anyone knows for sure.

Dr Archer has appeared on Dr Drew's show a couple nights for sure, regarding this case, as I saw him.

Some of the 'experts' that I've heard have said even if one is suffering from MI, they can still be found competent to stand trial. I'd imagine with all the evil planning that went into his murderous rampage, JH might want to start trying to plan to stand trial.

zvzvzv
07-26-2012, 04:11 PM
I'll have to read up on Stephen McDaniel. Did he get away with it and deemed him insane to stand trial?

it hasn't gone to trial yet. he plead not guilty and it looks like
they are trying to poke holes in police work & insinuate he was framed.

the case is on websleuths under:
Found Deceased GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 27 June 2011

songline
07-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Hibristophilia (attraction to dangerous individuals) is not considered a mental illness. It is probably more common than people realize, but usually it is only obvious when folks start sending fan mail to infamous killers.

Maybe quite a few of the folks are a little different, but then again who isn't?

So different that is is boarderline wako.

songline
07-26-2012, 05:07 PM
Dr Archer has appeared on Dr Drew's show a couple nights for sure, regarding this case, as I saw him.

Some of the 'experts' that I've heard have said even if one is suffering from MI, they can still be found competent to stand trial. I'd imagine with all the evil planning that went into his murderous rampage, JH might want to start trying to plan to stand trial.


And the level of manipulation and lies we can expect from him would be monumental.
I have a feeling there will not be a trial, just LWOP – the verdict will come in a couple of years.

rollinginit
07-26-2012, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the read on mcdaniels. That's some creepy stuff.

I don't know about mi that much.I do believe people use it for everything now....especially when describing a white suspect that kills people.

It's my belief....he killed for fame. Attention....(as of this moment) I think he thought he is smarter than everybody else. He's probably been told that his whole life. IMO, he was surprised when he wasn't catching on in his studies like he thought he should....or maybe he just hated his teachers. I think he picked the movie for the most impact. No security, lots and lots of people, no easy way for them to escape, loud, dark, and not many people paying attention to him beforehand. AND, most people usually cut their phones off during a movie.

I'm starting to think all these killers are trying to out do each other with the biggest body counts, the most destruction, and the scariest place besides a school to mass murder people.

If somebody would have ask you a few weeks ago where they needed security at.....I bet most people wouldn't have said a movie theater.

songline
07-26-2012, 05:16 PM
From the article:
Quote:
"His grades were mediocre. I've heard him described as brilliant. This is extremely inaccurate."Holmes attended the Salk program between high school and college and performed poorly, Jacobson said. "He shouldn't have gotten into the summer program."


Jacobson also said Holmes was enormously stubborn and refused to follow instructions.
He said he set Holmes to work writing computer code for an experiment Jacobson had done involving a game of rock-paper-scissors, in which the computer always beats the human, no matter who goes first.
He said that although he urged Holmes to use one method of programming, Holmes insisted on using another that Jacobsen described as vastly more time consuming and complicated.
"He just refused," said Jacobson. "Finally, I said, 'Do it any way you can.' "
The work never got done. "He never completed the project. What he gave me was a complete mess," Jacobson said.
So one might add "stubborn" to the list of traits in the wispy profile of Holmes - except students who knew him say they don't particularly recall pronounced stubbornness at all.
"I think he just liked to share his opinions on stuff he really believes in, what's right," said a 26-year-old UC Riverside graduate who was in his lab group in 2008. "There were times he can come off arrogant. He definitely could."


Considering JH was in a program that only allows a handful of people to enter each year I have to say that the above is the opinion of someone who really disliked JH and wants to discount any positive aspects of JH before he committed this horrific crime. Jacobsen sounds as if he is trying to distance himself from ever have been associated with JH. I would venture to say his allegations are rooted in resentment. It sounds as if he and Holmes did not get along and did not like the fact that JH has been described as brilliant. I have encountered attitudes from others like this myself in college and in the military. I am not necessarily defending JH but it annoys me that someone could just come out for his 15 minutes to slander a person just because they don't like them regardless of why they are now in the spotlight.


BBM I do think it is your opinion and that is fine. Your opinion is as valid as anybod y elses.

But I also can see that JH could have been stubborn, and want to do things only his way... you would not have known that because your encounter with him would have been very different then Jacobson who had to deal with him.

Brilliant has nothing to do with behavior. The work never got done, is common in MI - so is procrastination, or insisting to do things thief way.

JBean
07-26-2012, 05:16 PM
Dr Archer has appeared on Dr Drew's show a couple nights for sure, regarding this case, as I saw him.

Some of the 'experts' that I've heard have said even if one is suffering from MI, they can still be found competent to stand trial. I'd imagine with all the evil planning that went into his murderous rampage, JH might want to start trying to plan to stand trial.

Hi liz MI would most likely only be considered a mitigating factor at sentencing. There really is no defense that is "not guilty by reason of mental illness" these days. Insanity is something else,and very difficult to prove.
In my opinion he's probably mentally ill,but competent to stand trial; sane in legal terms. In other words he may be mentally ill but not insane.

However remember that one of the aggravating factors will probably be the extremely violent and horrific nature of the crime. Jmho

shadowraiths
07-26-2012, 06:24 PM
I find it interesting that the NY post is the only one printing these claims...and then of course all the others pick up on it.
The NY Post is notorious for floating wild, unsubstantiated, anonymous tip, claims. While they do get it right every now and them, I would say they're barely above National Enquirer tabloid-type zines.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 06:47 PM
I appreciate what you all have to say. I do not trust some of the news sources and experts yet.

We all believe mental illness is possible in some people. Many of us have been exposed to MI, and feel we can spot it. Do we already have enough info on JH to determine his condition? No.

Doctors usually don't diagnose any physical or mental condition without it meeting criteria.

Personally, I want to learn more about delusions and psychosis in general. How delusions can become a fixed belief in the mind interests me. I'm hearing of too many people that "just snapped" in our society. It almost seems the handy-dandy excuse - they just snapped. Oh, but then we find out she shot her brother in childhood, or something that might tell us it wasn't all that sudden.

Killing people is such a willful act, especially when you have to buy tons of equipment months ahead of time. Right now, no passes from me that he was too MI to stop himself.

Plus, there's con jobs even within MI. Did JH not stop himself from killing because he knew he could fake a MI? I don't know.
Here is our criteria for this cluster :
Now it just about what flavor from that cluster................
Basics these are the core diagnotic criteria :

Poor social interactions
Appearing to be in a coma-like daze, -
Lack of emotion in facial expression and speech
Dangerous behavior
Unusual behavior and dress
Delusions — having false, fixed beliefs
Thoughts of suicide or homicide
Loss of interest in usual activities
Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
chooses solitary activities
lacks close friends or confidants
shows emotional coldness, detachment

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 07:00 PM
To me the term "snapped" doesn't necessarily mean sudden impulse. It could mean he cracked/snapped months ago or even years ago and his symptoms deteriorated without proper treatment (IF he is mentally ill - schizophrenia as an example).

It appears everything was "normal" up until 4 months ago when he started to purchase all this bomb making stuff, the apparel, etc. Fast forward 2 -3 months, he fails his oral. A month later, he goes on a rampage.

Something happened during that 4 or 5 month period prior to his breakdown or whatever term we want to use.

:moo:
What happened - its slow:

started to have trouble in class after being star (loss)
relentless need to get ready for Batman opening
Failed orals
Withdrew (loss - fear -why the gun bought that day) rage
Knew could no longer live in apt cause of withdrawal from grad school
Has no job
Lost his $ from being in the program

SO - he is becoming increasingly psycotic, he is bright, he has lived with this his whole life, he knows he his sinking, and afraid he is gonna do what his voices are telling him (reason for notebook mailing HELP me I am falling) he is no longer taking his meds, completly obseesed (delusionial with procuring guns so he can really be the Joker on opening night) he is broke, homeless , a failure to mom and dad, has no support system at all, probably using drugs to self medicate (Vicodin/ sedative in car) possibly IMO only , crack /meth
Poof here we are ...................Not really sure if any of us , not suffering with mental illiness might not crack with loss of identy, housing, money........
Kid got lost in the shuffle ...............................

zvzvzv
07-26-2012, 07:13 PM
Here is our criteria for this cluster :
Now it just about what flavor from that cluster................
Basics these are the core diagnotic criteria :

Poor social interactions
Appearing to be in a coma-like daze, -
Lack of emotion in facial expression and speech
Dangerous behavior
Unusual behavior and dress
Delusions — having false, fixed beliefs
Thoughts of suicide or homicide
Loss of interest in usual activities
Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
chooses solitary activities
lacks close friends or confidants
shows emotional coldness, detachment

what you describe is schizoid leaning toward schizotypal
personality disorder. people who identify as schizoid
prefer to call it a personality type.
it's not an axis 1 & is not a rapid-onset thing,
it's part of their personality.
whatever made him 'snap', i think the only contribution
his personality disorder made, was that no-one was
around to recognize he was about to snap due to his lifestyle.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 07:13 PM
this is exactly the plot law student killer Stephen Mcdaniel wrote
online about how to get away with a massacre.

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/26/1678356/mcdaniel-posts-describe-torture.html

In another post from 2010, “SoL” wrote of how he’d kill religious demonstrators planning to attend the funeral of a fellow message-boarder’s brother, a fallen U.S. soldier...

Yeah "Sol" supposedly wrote about rape and bbqing the victim too, but then it turned out the defendant DIDN'T write it after the post was presented in open court as evidence. The prosecution likely can't confirm ANY of the SoL posts, the webhost has never been contacted and all of those alleged posts will almost certainly be unproven and inadmissable. This thread isn't about McDaniel but I follow it closely and making partial/misleading statements is something I can't ignore.

If some of the posts read in open court by the Prosecution were "unverified" it is a sure bet that ALL were unverified. The prosecution officially withdrew that "evidence" when it was shown to be unsubstantiated and likely fake.


District Attorney Greg Winters read the post during McDaniel’s April 3 hearing “with a good faith belief” that it was authored by McDaniel, according to a state motion filed Tuesday.

Malcor said during Tuesday’s hearing that the district attorney’s office received “preliminary information” April 16 that caused prosecutors to “question the authorship of the post.” http://www.macon.com/2012/06/19/2066150/bibb-county-prosecutors-seek-to.html

shadowraiths
07-26-2012, 07:13 PM
Considering JH was in a program that only allows a handful of people to enter each year I have to say that the above is the opinion of someone who really disliked JH and wants to discount any positive aspects of JH before he committed this horrific crime. Jacobsen sounds as if he is trying to distance himself from ever have been associated with JH. I would venture to say his allegations are rooted in resentment. It sounds as if he and Holmes did not get along and did not like the fact that JH has been described as brilliant. I have encountered attitudes from others like this myself in college and in the military. I am not necessarily defending JH but it annoys me that someone could just come out for his 15 minutes to slander a person just because they don't like them regardless of why they are now in the spotlight.
Yep, I agree. The guy sounds like sour grapes, to me.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 07:18 PM
There was also a video interview of this SD pawn shop owner, but I can't find it now. The owner discussed guns with JH, but there wasn't a transaction. It may point to a longer planning stage, if it's to be believed.
BBM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48266803/ns/local_news-san_diego_ca/t/pawn-shop-owner-recalls-holmes-eyes/

David Casper, owner of Hillcrest Pawnbrokers on 6th Avenue, said Holmes – who’s originally from San Diego -- came into his store to discuss firearms within the last few months.

"Casper said he remembers Holmes specifically because he visited his Hillcrest pawn shop several times in the last year."

zvzvzv
07-26-2012, 07:27 PM
Yeah "Sol" supposedly wrote about rape and bbqing the victim too, but then it turned out the defendant DIDN'T write it after the post was presented in open court as evidence. The prosecution likely can't confirm ANY of the SoL posts, the webhost has never been contacted and all of those alleged posts will almost certainly be unproven and inadmissable. This thread isn't about McDaniel but I follow it closely and making partial/misleading statements is something I can't ignore.

If some of the posts read in open court by the Prosecution were "unverified" it is a sure bet that ALL were unverified. The prosecution officially withdrew that "evidence" when it was shown to be unsubstantiated and likely fake.

thank you, i was aware that some statements made by SoL
were proven not to be him, but trolls after his arrest.
i understand though that some posts were him,
evidenced by a witness who met him IRL via username SoL.

whoever DID write that scenario about faking mental illness
after a mass murder had the same idea as JH.

songline
07-26-2012, 07:31 PM
Could someone like JH be able to fool psychiatrists? I doubt it, imo

He can fake all he wants.

Many are actually so good at conniving and manipulating, you start to think maybe they are innocent.
So can he fool a trained psychiatrist? YES.

My daughter has done do for years and now they know better. Hmmm. So she changes doctors.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 07:32 PM
what you describe is schizoid leaning toward schizotypal
personality disorder. people who identify as schizoid
prefer to call it a personality type.
it's not an axis 1 & is not a rapid-onset thing,
it's part of their personality.
whatever made him 'snap', i think the only contribution
his personality disorder made, was that no-one was
around to recognize he was about to snap due to his lifestyle.
I am going AXIS 1 only !

songline
07-26-2012, 07:35 PM
sounds like this is the planI think just becaues a plot was written by law student killer Stephen Mcdaniel does not mean to ME that it is the plan.

shadowraiths
07-26-2012, 07:40 PM
In reading a few other posts, it appears some are confusing competency with NGRI. These are two different things. Criminal charges involve two prongs. Actus Reus (guilty act, link (http://legaldefinitions.co/actus-reus.html)) and Mens Rea (guilty mind, link (http://legaldefinitions.co/mens-rea.html)). NGRI, also known as the M'Naughten rule (link (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/M'Naghten+Rule)), applies to the "mens rea" of the defendant, and is a defense that can be put forth at trial. NGRIs are rarely used as a defense ( < 1%) due to public disfavor. Competency, otoh, has to do with whether (or not) the defendant can make sound legal decisions. And since the legal process, in and of itself, is quite complex, it can involve several competency hearings:


Competency to waive Miranda Rights
Competency to stand trial
Competency to be sentenced
Competency to waive appeals (arguably, for each possible appeal)
Competency to be executed

So, for example, in competency to stand trial, does the individual understand the charges? Can they assist in their defense? In competency to waive appeals, does the individual understand the consequences of waiving the appeal, etc. In all cases but Miranda, if the individual is found to be incompetent, they are remanded to a mental institute to be restored to competency. The latter, specifically, competency to be executed, raises several ethical Qs, and was extensively discussed in the case of Singleton v Norris. (link (http://www.jaapl.org/content/31/3/372.full.pdf))

songline
07-26-2012, 07:40 PM
Hi liz MI would most likely only be considered a mitigating factor at sentencing. There really is no defense that is not guilty by reason of mental illness these days. Insanity is something else And very difficult To prove. In my opinion he's probably mentally ill But competent to stand trial and sane in legal terms. In other words he may be mentally ill but not insane. However remember that one of the aggravating factors will probably be the extremely violent and horrific nature of the crime. Jmho

ITA..
Just my feeling - this will not go to trial.
but he will be locked up forever.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 07:44 PM
thank you, i was aware that some statements made by SoL
were proven not to be him, but trolls after his arrest.
i understand though that some posts were him,
evidenced by a witness who met him IRL via username SoL.

whoever DID write that scenario about faking mental illness
after a mass murder had the same idea as JH.

Oh yes these defendants are EXTREMELY similar! Eerily so! The similarity struck me immediately as well. I absolutely agree there, quite possibly suffering from the same personality disorder.

Difference is Holmes never expected to avoid punishment and has no hope of of it, while McDaniel appears to have been super careful and it looks like he has a pretty good chance of beating the charges.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 07:47 PM
Oh yes these defendants are EXTREMELY similar! Eerily so! The similarity struck me immediately as well. I absolutely agree there, quite possibly suffering from the same personality disorder.

Difference is Holmes never expected to avoid punishment and has no hope of of it, while McDaniel appears to have been super careful and it looks like he has a pretty good chance of beating the charges.
Like Luka up until that minute in the cafe!

jjenny
07-26-2012, 07:49 PM
Yep, I agree. The guy sounds like sour grapes, to me.

Well, I had to laugh about the idea that the guy is slandering JH by calling him a mediocre student, considering that JH is accused of killing 12 people.

shadowraiths
07-26-2012, 07:56 PM
Well, I had to laugh about the idea that the guy is slandering JH by calling him a mediocre student, considering that JH is accused of killing 12 people.
Well, def not slander. The posturing is still rather humorous... imho, of course.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 07:59 PM
i understand though that some posts were him,
evidenced by a witness who met him IRL via username SoL.

And yes I think he definitely wrote some of the older posts, however if it can't be proven then it didn't happen (in a court of law). Also I don't think it is fair to take posts like that out of context, it depends on the topic and the website (trust me plenty of the comments on this site would seem very incriminating if they were taken out of context, just snippets read in court). I am honestly surprised McDaniel didn't write far more extreme things.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 08:03 PM
Don't mind me, I'm reading this way-over-my-head article. Guessing JH would be said to have monothematic delusions of the joker killer variety.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526128/

"A useful distinction can be drawn between “polythematic delusional systems” and “monothematic delusions.” Someone exhibiting a polythematic delusional system exhibits a wide variety of delusional beliefs covering many different topics. Someone exhibiting a monothematic delusion possesses just a single delusional belief or at most a few such beliefs all related to a single theme."

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:07 PM
ITA..
Just my feeling - this will not go to trial.
but he will be locked up forever.

Why wouldn't it go to trial? Andrea Yates went on trial not once, but twice, and there was lots of mental history with her. Whereas with JH, there appears to be none.

SmoothOperator
07-26-2012, 08:11 PM
BBM I do think it is your opinion and that is fine. Your opinion is as valid as anybod y elses.

But I also can see that JH could have been stubborn, and want to do things only his way... you would not have known that because your encounter with him would have been very different then Jacobson who had to deal with him.

Brilliant has nothing to do with behavior. The work never got done, is common in MI - so is procrastination, or insisting to do things thief way.
These are also classic signs of ADD or OCD which hardly would stand a chance in helping him even in mitigating factors.. No doubt his defense attorneys will NOT have difficulties finding SOMEONE to come in and diagnose him with an entire slew of mental illnesses.. Still doesn't make it true IN THE LEAST that's what attorneys are paid for when representing the guilty throw as many things at the wall and pray to God something sticks.. And IMO that's his only chance is to have another Pinellas 12 buy into the bs and lighten his sentence when IMO he straight up deserves the death penalty.. And for me that will stand this man has more than proven over a long extended period of time to plot, plan, and slaughter.. Whatever illness his defense attempts to throw at the wall NOT A SINGLE ONE WILL CHANGE THE FACT HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THE HELL HE WAS DOING AND THE EXACT HEINOUS CRIME HE COMMITTED IS THE EXACT REASON WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY!

February
07-26-2012, 08:19 PM
Shur said that graduate students are part of a "family" and generally see their advisers every single day

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html

so he is seeing an ADVISER everyday... where is this adviser? can he/she speak about JH without compromising FERPA law?

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 08:23 PM
And IMO that's his only chance is to have another Pinellas 12 buy into the bs and lighten his sentence when IMO he straight up deserves the death penalty.. And for me that will stand this man has more than proven over a long extended period of time to plot, plan, and slaughter.. Whatever illness his defense attempts to throw at the wall NOT A SINGLE ONE WILL CHANGE THE FACT HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THE HELL HE WAS DOING AND THE EXACT HEINOUS CRIME HE COMMITTED IS THE EXACT REASON WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY!

Yeah this guy is not going to get the death penalty in CO.

He sends his plans to the school before the mass killing, he rigs the apartment with explosives but doesn't set a timer and then TELLS the police the apartment is rigged, he stands there politely and lets the police arrest him without trying to flee the scene. The guy is not right in the head.

No doubt that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to weirdness, he is not going to get the needle in CO. Guess some folks will just have to hope he gets stabbed to death in prison.

Padua
07-26-2012, 08:24 PM
Many are actually so good at conniving and manipulating, you start to think maybe they are innocent.
So can he fool a trained psychiatrist? YES.

My daughter has done do for years and now they know better. Hmmm. So she changes doctors.

He is not a doctor shopping patient. A psychologist with training in forensic psychology will do their examination. Then, they will have a second psychologist do their examination. It will be extensive.

Are you comparing your daughter to a mass murderer?

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:25 PM
Considering this happened in Co, I'd say there is a 100 % guarantee he is not going to get a death penalty in AZ.

February
07-26-2012, 08:27 PM
Considering this happened in Co, I'd say there is a 100 % guarantee he is not going to get a death penalty in AZ.


100% agree with you on that

songline
07-26-2012, 08:28 PM
These are also classic signs of ADD or OCD which hardly would stand a chance in helping him even in mitigating factors.. No doubt his defense attorneys will NOT have difficulties finding SOMEONE to come in and diagnose him with an entire slew of mental illnesses.. Still doesn't make it true IN THE LEAST that's what attorneys are paid for when representing the guilty throw as many things at the wall and pray to God something sticks.. And IMO that's his only chance is to have another Pinellas 12 buy into the bs and lighten his sentence when IMO he straight up deserves the death penalty.. And for me that will stand this man has more than proven over a long extended period of time to plot, plan, and slaughter.. Whatever illness his defense attempts to throw at the wall NOT A SINGLE ONE WILL CHANGE THE FACT HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THE HELL HE WAS DOING AND THE EXACT HEINOUS CRIME HE COMMITTED IS THE EXACT REASON WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY!

He definitely does not have a shot of seeing light of day ever again.
And we all know that attorney’s job is to do the best they can with a case they take on.
but I do sincerely believe that man is ill. I am not saying it because i want him to get a lighter sentence… in fact maybe putting him out of his misery will give his parents some peace, who knows?
But believe me MI is not BS I know it firsthand because my daughter is MI and I have taken many classes, been to many groups, heard too many stories.
This man IS Evil and MI. (not all MI people are Evil) And I am going t stick with that.

Sonya610
07-26-2012, 08:30 PM
Considering this happened in Co, I'd say there is a 100 % guarantee he is not going to get a death penalty in AZ.

LOL...sorry I don't know why I was thinking AZ (some gun law trivia stuck in my head). Yeah CO is a blue state, he isn't going to be executed.

Padua
07-26-2012, 08:31 PM
Shur said that graduate students are part of a "family" and generally see their advisers every single day

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html

so he is seeing an ADVISER everyday... where is this adviser? can he/she speak about JH without compromising FERPA law?

I spoke with my adviser every day while in school. Talked one on one several times a week. I was in a class of eight and we went out to eat once a month and went to a bar after a huge exam. Our adviser would go with us. At this point in an educational career, an adviser isn't an authority figure, but colleague. I say colleage because we worked together on research and once that research was published in journal, we were all authors together. It was a team.

songline
07-26-2012, 08:34 PM
He is not a doctor shopping patient. A psychologist with training in forensic psychology will do their examination. Then, they will have a second psychologist do their examination. It will be extensive.

Are you comparing your daughter to a mass murderer?


He** no I can never compare her... she is not evil.
The statement was simple - someone asked. Can he evade a trained Psychiatrist?
My reply is they all can. It may take a very long time to get accurate diagnosis on him...
but it will probably be 2-3 years before it goes to trial -- IF IT EVER goes to trial.

I think it won’t go to trial, and that he will never see the sun again LWOP

February
07-26-2012, 08:37 PM
I spoke with my adviser every day while in school. Talked one on one several times a week. I was in a class of eight and we went out to eat once a month and went to a bar after a huge exam. Our adviser would go with us. At this point in an educational career, an adviser isn't an authority figure, but colleague. I say colleage because we worked together on research and once that research was published in journal, we were all authors together. It was a team.


Yes , actually all PhD graduate candidates from Universities are assigned their own adviser.

I guess our news reporters should be talking to JH's adviser to get more details about his last few months before he went crazy.

songline
07-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Why wouldn't it go to trial? Andrea Yates went on trial not once, but twice, and there was lots of mental history with her. Whereas with JH, there appears to be none.


The size and complexity of this massacre is different and it is not who done it.
It may go to trial but I doubt it.

pinkflamingo
07-26-2012, 08:44 PM
The size and complexity of this massacre is different and it is not who done it.
It may go to trial but I doubt it.

Andrea Yates was hardly who done it and it was only one family...

Padua
07-26-2012, 08:45 PM
They are seeking the death penalty. It will go to trial. He may be guilty but they will argue the death penalty. They will read the charges Monday. Then the punishment phase, that's where his lawyers will argue against the death penalty. Then it will be a drawn out phase suggesting why he shouldn't be put to death.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 08:46 PM
This link we've seen before has good pics and videos about JH's background, as well as the guns he bought.


http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/21/12878372-photos-of-james-holmes-camp-counselor-for-underprivileged-kids

Photos of James Holmes, camp counselor for underprivileged kids
"It is sickening," the fellow counselor said, "knowing that he killed kids the same age that he once cared for."

songline
07-26-2012, 08:59 PM
They are seeking the death penalty. It will go to trial. He may be guilty but they will argue the death penalty. They will read the charges Monday. Then the punishment phase, that's where his lawyers will argue against the death penalty. Then it will be a drawn out phase suggesting why he shouldn't be put to death.

Remains to be seen. :D
I have my opinions.
I sure do know the process.

NOT all cases go to trial......

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 09:02 PM
Dr. Drew is going to have the parents of a 9 yr. old girl with Schizophrenia on right now. I'm sure I'll learn something, but then again this little 9 yr. didn't massacre a bunch of people.

jjenny
07-26-2012, 09:04 PM
LOL...sorry I don't know why I was thinking AZ (some gun law trivia stuck in my head). Yeah CO is a blue state, he isn't going to be executed.

Jared Loughner is the recent one from AZ?

songline
07-26-2012, 09:04 PM
Andrea Yates was hardly who done it and it was only one family...

She started out claiming innocent....
But it is no comparison to this case.

YES they are both Off the Mark.

jjenny
07-26-2012, 09:05 PM
Dr. Drew is going to have the parents of a 9 yr. old girl with Schizophrenia on right now. I'm sure I'll learn something, but then again this little 9 yr. didn't massacre a bunch of people.

Nor there is any evidence JH actually has schizophrenia.

joe2857
07-26-2012, 09:09 PM
I guess our news reporters should be talking to JH's adviser to get more details about his last few months before he went crazy.

Keep in mind that JH was only one year into a program that takes 5 to 7 years. And the first year was mostly coursework. The intensive research phase of the program had not yet begun. So JH's adviser may not have known him as well as he/she would know a student who's further along in the program. JH's adviser might be as baffled by what happened as everyone else. Also, the adviser would be limited in what he/she could say to the media because of FERPA. Also, the university has been advised by law enforcement not to speak about specifics of the suspect or the case. I know everyone is curious to find out as much as possible about JH, but if I were a faculty member, I would stay away from the news media and only speak to law enforcement.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 09:12 PM
Nor there is any evidence JH actually has schizophrenia.

True, and I think Dr. Drew is to blame for me connecting it has anything to do with the movie shootings.

I'm already hearing this little girl has IQ 146 and showed extreme signs that scared the nanny urging the Mom to call 911.

scorekeeper
07-26-2012, 09:12 PM
mitt romney called Holmes a "deranged" person on Piers Morgan

jjenny
07-26-2012, 09:14 PM
True, and I think Dr. Drew is to blame for me connecting it has anything to do with the movie shootings.

I'm already hearing this little girl has IQ 146 and showed extreme signs that scared the nanny urging the Mom to call 911.

Schizophrenia among children is very rare. In addition, it's rather obvious that JH didn't have schizophrenia as a child. So, for Dr. Drew to try and link a child with schizophrenia with this case makes no sense whatsoever.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 09:20 PM
I thought he went with the "sudden onset" crowd last week.

Padua
07-26-2012, 09:22 PM
She started out claiming innocent....
But it is no comparison to this case.

YES they are both Off the Mark.

please review andrea yates' case

Andrea Yates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She never claimed she was innocent. Ever. She confessed from the get go.

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 09:46 PM
It is not a waste of air time to talk about MI on this Dr.Drewo show, but NO ONE KNOWS if JH was suffering from anything. He didn't seem to give many hints. Yes, I want to hear from the advisors. Did any of his small group complain to the advisor because that would have to be on record? But I realize we won't be hearing any of this soon. In the meantime, the media is starting to put the slant on their diagnosis as a whole to keep us content there is an answer as to why. "No one was there for him."

SmoothOperator
07-26-2012, 09:53 PM
He definitely does not have a shot of seeing light of day ever again.
And we all know that attorney’s job is to do the best they can with a case they take on.
but I do sincerely believe that man is ill. I am not saying it because i want him to get a lighter sentence… in fact maybe putting him out of his misery will give his parents some peace, who knows?
But believe me MI is not BS I know it firsthand because my daughter is MI and I have taken many classes, been to many groups, heard too many stories.
This man IS Evil and MI. (not all MI people are Evil) And I am going t stick with that.

Songline please don't think that I am of the opinion that MI is bs because I am not.. I've seen it up close and personal and dealt with it in many close friends as well as family members. I know it is alive and well and can make ones life a living hell for both the person suffering from it along with all those around them.. I know that you've had a rough go of it with your daughter.. Believe me tho I must admit I chuckled for a moment at how you described your once having called for help for her and that she was so good at hiding and conning medical professionals that you were the one that ended up being taken in..(and I mean no disrespect by laughing it was just the way you told you have me with a mental picture of you being strapped down and carted off..lol)..

So, I know that you have very first hand personal knowledge of MI.. But believe when I speak of bs I am not speaking of MI not existing because I very much know that it does.. I'm just not giving this monster that benefit of the doubt at this time that he in fact is MI to a degree that would matter or hold any bearing in a court of criminal law for his heinous crimes..

That's all.. So, I didnt want you to misunderstand and think that my opinion was that MI is bs.. Because that's not how I feel..

jjenny
07-26-2012, 10:01 PM
It is not a waste of air time to talk about MI on this Dr.Drewo show, but NO ONE KNOWS if JH was suffering from anything. He didn't seem to give many hints. Yes, I want to hear from the advisors. Did any of his small group complain to the advisor because that would have to be on record? But I realize we won't be hearing any of this soon. In the meantime, the media is starting to put the slant on their diagnosis as a whole to keep us content there is an answer as to why. "No one was there for him."

Who wants their name associated with JH? The guy who called him mediocre student appears to be most upset that his name is associated with that of JH, even though it was years ago. So why would his advisor talk, even if it was not against FERPA?

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 10:31 PM
You know what just struck me! IMO! !At its core this seems to be basically about two general schools of thought. One is that his court appearance was BS , and those of us who beleive that what we saw was component severe pathology or medication

Obviously I am of the latter belief - resulting in my beleif that he will be ruled incompt to stand trial. Lets pretend a magic wand happened and it was proven his behavior (pretend!) was authentic the question is then.

Did that 12 minutes to anyone look like an individual that really had a clue about what had happened or what was truly going on that day in the courtroom?

If one saw that behavior at a restaurant at a table would one not come to a conlcusion that something might be "off".

But in a real awful way it seems like we are never gonna know till those rulings come because we are not going to be able to observe his behavior any longer in the courtroom .

Tucarra
07-26-2012, 10:34 PM
To me the term "snapped" doesn't necessarily mean sudden impulse. It could mean he cracked/snapped months ago or even years ago and his symptoms deteriorated without proper treatment (IF he is mentally ill - schizophrenia as an example).

It appears everything was "normal" up until 4 months ago when he started to purchase all this bomb making stuff, the apparel, etc. Fast forward 2 -3 months, he fails his oral. A month later, he goes on a rampage.

Something happened during that 4 or 5 month period prior to his breakdown or whatever term we want to use.

:moo:

Yes...and I'm not so sure about "normal" but in any societal context, possibly...

But something definitely "happened" that caused a "break" or "shift"...

Easy to surmise the "Oral Test" a 'trigger'....being interviewed 'real-time' is tough, and given his field of study may have been extra 'tough'..?

Regardless...there was something in him that was 'ticking' a long time ago..

Curious Me
07-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Who wants their name associated with JH? The guy who called him mediocre student appears to be most upset that his name is associated with that of JH, even though it was years ago. So why would his advisor talk, even if it was not against FERPA?

Wouldn't his advisor or school officials be able to be questioned for the investigation? Does FERPA protect all records and they can't ever take down statements from advisors/teachers? I think I'm tired.

scorekeeper
07-26-2012, 10:52 PM
Wouldn't his advisor or school officials be able to be questioned for the investigation? Does FERPA protect all records and they can't ever take down statements from advisors/teachers? I think I'm tired.

I would think that they would want to assist in the investigation; therefore, yes, talking to LE is totally different than talking to media per University statement and/or gag order.........

I'm tired too!!

Time to head off to bed. :seeya:

February
07-26-2012, 10:56 PM
Keep in mind that JH was only one year into a program that takes 5 to 7 years. And the first year was mostly coursework. The intensive research phase of the program had not yet begun. So JH's adviser may not have known him as well as he/she would know a student who's further along in the program. JH's adviser might be as baffled by what happened as everyone else. Also, the adviser would be limited in what he/she could say to the media because of FERPA. Also, the university has been advised by law enforcement not to speak about specifics of the suspect or the case. I know everyone is curious to find out as much as possible about JH, but if I were a faculty member, I would stay away from the news media and only speak to law enforcement.

IMO he/she should also have the conscience to at least speak something within the boundaries of the law but it is understandable that she has a job to protect. in fact, if she is willing to talk to the media , it's best to also carry a luniversity lawyer or their own personal lawyer to protect their rights since this is already a sensational case and every words can be twisted IMO...

February
07-26-2012, 11:03 PM
It is not a waste of air time to talk about MI on this Dr.Drewo show, but NO ONE KNOWS if JH was suffering from anything. He didn't seem to give many hints. Yes, I want to hear from the advisors. Did any of his small group complain to the advisor because that would have to be on record? But I realize we won't be hearing any of this soon. In the meantime, the media is starting to put the slant on their diagnosis as a whole to keep us content there is an answer as to why. "No one was there for him."

I dont know if FERPA will allow a statement from the advisor that he /she tried her best to keep JH in the program :) I want to know ( and i dont care if anybody else doesnt want to know it is my opinion ) if the University put an EFFORT to keep him on this school at all .

jjenny
07-26-2012, 11:08 PM
I dont know if FERPA will allow a statement from the advisor that he /she tried her best to keep JH in the program :) I want to know ( and i dont care if anybody else doesnt want to know it is my opinion ) if the University put an EFFORT to keep him on this school at all .

I am not sure what difference does it make if they did or didn't. They put him on a training grant and thus invested time and money into him (instead of some other person). So normally they don't want the student to quit. But ultimately he is an adult and can do what he wants. I get the impression some people think an advisor should threat a graduate student like a baby, running after him and begging him to stay if he wants to quit. No one is going to do that in real life.

Roxye
07-26-2012, 11:14 PM
He** no I can never compare her... she is not evil.


That to me is what it comes down to. Even with MI like your daughter's and mine, it comes down to intent. Your daughter is not evil, I am not evil. So to think because of our MI, we could do something like this is just APPALLING!


MI doesn't not equate to the acts JH perpetrated! He 'might' be MI, but just because he was MI, it doesn't mean that he isn't evil.

Your daughter, nor myself, who are both MI are not evil. The thought that either of us could do this type of HORRIFIC act, makes those around us APPALLED that anyone would suggest this man's evil acts could even come close to the reality her and I deal with on a regular basis.

If he gets off because someone thinks his actions are because of MI, then the ENTIRE MI community loses the ground we are trying to gain by saying MOST of us, are struggling hard NOT being this type of human. We WANT to NOT feel like this, we WANT to not be associated with this HORRENDOUS act. WE, as a WHOLE, in the MI community ARE NOT EVIL!

Giving this man this out! This,,,,, oh he's MI!..... disputes EVERYTHING the REAL MI community is trying to do.

Anyone in my shoes would do ANYTHING, just to be NORMAL. This man disputes EVERYTHING we want for ourselves in the MI community!

February
07-26-2012, 11:33 PM
I am not sure what difference does it make if they did or didn't. They put him on a training grant and thus invested time and money into him (instead of some other person). So normally they don't want the student to quit. But ultimately he is an adult and can do what he wants. I get the impression some people think an advisor should threat a graduate student like a baby, running after him and begging him to stay if he wants to quit. No one is going to do that in real life.

lol Seriously, we are talking about PhD Neuroscience PAID school ... not some high school class or basic college course...Dean Barry Shur said the advisor meets them daily so...wether he knows anything or not, i prefer to listen to anything she/he will have to say - IF ANY.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 11:40 PM
Should it become known, that the truth, IMO, is that Unniversity admin and faculity wanted JH OUT of program due to increasingly unique behaviors.

I learned about FERPA here, and many contend that they, (University folk) , were under no obligation and it was illigal to take action should the abovementioned be the actual situation.

It drove me nuts! Haunted me!

Just look at some of the timeline - stable people do not go out and pick assualt weapons, (that are more intense than the army overseas), the day one leaves grad school!

We will never know, - but, maybe if they did the right thing (notify = we have some very serious concerns here) he would have been hospitized, medicated and missed opening night. SHAME ON THEM.

I hope all of them are having sleepless nights and profound anxiety while feeling guility as well.


Forget the part of being a human being, those cowards hide behind FERPA in order to avoid legal stuff (Virginia Tech).$$$$$$$

COWARDS.

Here is what FERPA DOES say:

One threshold point that is often overlooked is that FERPA limits only the disclosure of records and information from records about a student. It does not limit disclosure or discussion of personal observations.

In other words, if a college or university employee develops a concern about a student based on the employee’s observations of or personal interactions with the student, the employee may disclose that concern to anyone without violating, or even implicating, FERPA.
.
****. Even when information is part of a student’s records and therefore covered by FERPA, the law provides several exceptions that permit appropriate communications under circumstances in which the [B]student or others may be at risk of harm[/FONT]In some circumstances, FERPA has been invoked as the reason not to share student information, when in reality the law would permit disclosure

information regarding the results of certain student conduct proceedings involving violence to the general public;Schools also have a duty to warn of known dangers
In some circumstances, FERPA has been invoked as the reason not to share student information, when in reality the law would permit disclosure......information regarding the results of certain student conduct proceedings involving violence to the general public6.
7. http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa

7. [/COLOR]http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa


;


]









http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa[/COLOR]

Roxye
07-26-2012, 11:49 PM
CARIIS, I think you are stretching liability with the university.

If he, until this inductance, was a model student..... How are they liable?

emeraldeyes85
07-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Should it become known, that the truth, IMO, is that Unniversity admin and faculity wanted JH OUT of program due to increasingly unique behaviors.

I learned about FERPA here, and many contend that they, (University folk) , were under no obligation and it was illigal to take action should the abovementioned be the actual situation.

It drove me nuts! Haunted me!

Just look at some of the timeline - stable people do not go out and pick assualt weapons, (that are more intense than the army overseas), the day one leaves grad school!

We will never know, - but, maybe if they did the right thing (notify = we have some very serious concerns here) he would have been hospitized, medicated and missed opening night. SHAME ON THEM.

I hope all of them are having sleepless nights and profound anxiety while feeling guility as well.


Forget the part of being a human being, those cowards hide behind FERPA in order to avoid legal stuff (Virginia Tech).$$$$$$$

COWARDS.

Here is what FERPA DOES say:

One threshold point that is often overlooked is that FERPA limits only the disclosure of records and information from records about a student. It does not limit disclosure or discussion of personal observations.

In other words, if a college or university employee develops a concern about a student based on the employee’s observations of or personal interactions with the student, the employee may disclose that concern to anyone without violating, or even implicating, FERPA.
.
****. Even when information is part of a student’s records and therefore covered by FERPA, the law provides several exceptions that permit appropriate communications under circumstances in which the [B]student or others may be at risk of harm[/FONT]In some circumstances, FERPA has been invoked as the reason not to share student information, when in reality the law would permit disclosure

information regarding the results of certain student conduct proceedings involving violence to the general public;Schools also have a duty to warn of known dangers
In some circumstances, FERPA has been invoked as the reason not to share student information, when in reality the law would permit disclosure......information regarding the results of certain student conduct proceedings involving violence to the general public6.
7. http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa

7. [/COLOR]http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa


;


]









http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa[/COLOR]
You have to understand that he didnt do anything illegal, he bought the guns legally and passed a federal background check in order to get them, all legal. The school had no way of knowing he was buying guns or tactical gear and they had no reason to call the police to check him out he wasnt breaking any laws and while we all, looking at the whole picture from the comforts of our homes after the fact, can clearly see some strange behavior when it is all added up together, the people around him didnt have the ability to see it all as one big picture with all the suspicious behavior connected, they saw bits and pieces only making it impossible for them to know he was going to do something like this.

You just cant go around sticking your nose in people's business like that and calling the cops for every little thing, it is not right and it is not fair to those of us who arent doing anything wrong but because we are a little different everyone is on the phone calling 911 to have us investigated because we have pink hair.

All due respect my friend but you really need to think about this and what the long term consequences are of living in a society with a bunch of tattletales watching everything we do and reporting us to the police for anything they think isnt "normal."

The fact is nothing could have been done to prevent this and nothing can be done to prevent it from happening again, it is the world we live in, and as sad as it is and as much as it sucks it is no worse than the mass murder going on in Pakistan/Afghanistan and Iraq everyday through the use of unmanned drones that are being used to kill untold thousands of innocent people who have done nothing wrong.

It is the world we live in and unless you want to give up your civil liberties so the cops can just snoop on you whenever they get the fancy, then you just have to accept it and do what you can to protect yourself and your loved ones.

It sucks, dont get me wrong but I dont want to live in a nanny state.

CARIIS
07-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Yes...and I'm not so sure about "normal" but in any societal context, possibly...

But something definitely "happened" that caused a "break" or "shift"...

Easy to surmise the "Oral Test" a 'trigger'....being interviewed 'real-time' is tough, and given his field of study may have been extra 'tough'..?

Regardless...there was something in him that was 'ticking' a long time ago..
Since embryo!

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 12:04 AM
This link we've seen before has good pics and videos about JH's background, as well as the guns he bought.


http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/21/12878372-photos-of-james-holmes-camp-counselor-for-underprivileged-kids

Photos of James Holmes, camp counselor for underprivileged kids
"It is sickening," the fellow counselor said, "knowing that he killed kids the same age that he once cared for."
OH my god! I may be mistaken but watching this video -- I saw a banner on the apt building advertising unit avail !

I do not think that was there 24 hours ago!

I thought, my god the whole world knows, ya all got , at least one unit vacant ;and he is not coming back ---------god could ya wait a week!

February
07-27-2012, 12:10 AM
CARIIS, I think you are stretching liability with the university.

If he, until this inductance, was a model student..... How are they liable?


IF foxnews is right that the mail /package JH sent to a psychiatrist is sitting on the mail room for a week before the crime... i will possibly hear Lawsuits :)

IF JH failed in that Oral Exam that cause his depression and mental illnesses and he isnt really supposed to fail.... Yaiks, i hear a bigger Lawsuits.

We dont have complete facts for now and so the above could be wrong so all of these are just some theory on how could they be liable possibly......For now, am just wondering what Media is also after since they want record of his emails at that University.

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 12:11 AM
this will not go to trial.
You may be right. I actually think it will go to trial. Even though from what I've been told, attys generally hate going to trial bc once there, it's somewhat of a crap shoot, so to speak. After all, look at KC & OJ. OJ's case, esp, seemed like a slam dunk. And yet, he was acquitted.

Regardless, I don't see the prosecuting atty offering a plea deal. Not for something of this nature. Nor do I see the defendant asking for a bench trial. He has a much better chance with a jury. Esp if his presentation continues to be as we saw on Monday's brief hearing.

And finally, since this case has less to do with "whodunnit" and more to do with "whyhedunnit," I will not be the least bit surprised if the defense atty goes for an NGRI. Esp, since, from my read, Colorado seems to have a higher success rate wrt such defenses. ( link (http://www.jaapl.org/content/16/1/35.full.pdf) )

jjenny
07-27-2012, 12:13 AM
IF foxnews is right that the mail /package JH sent to a psychiatrist is sitting on the mail room for a week before the crime... i will possibly hear Lawsuits :)

IF JH failed in that Oral Exam that cause his depression and mental illnesses and he isnt really supposed to fail.... Yaiks, i hear a bigger Lawsuits.

We dont have complete facts for now and so the above could be wrong so all of these are just some theory on how could they be liable possibly......

You have got to be kidding. The school is responsible because he failed a test? What in the world does it mean he isn't supposed to fail a test? There are no guarantees that a student isn't going to fail a test.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 12:15 AM
That is a neat notion - an angle I never thought about BOTH MI/EVIL!

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 12:15 AM
Very interesting what it says, CARIIS. I see what you're saying, and if there were outright concerns for the safety of students, others, or himself, yes, that would be upsetting to find out otherwise. Yet, he was very clever to not show his plan to start hurting or killing anyone, IMO. I have to consider maybe he knew right from wrong, but just didn't care because he could always fake being insane.

He says he thought he was the joker, and he probably got his satisfaction in that theater actually killing even children. Come Monday he doesn't seem to have any connection to the joker anymore. What happened to that fixated delusion that went on for months of planning?

February
07-27-2012, 12:15 AM
You may be right. I actually think it will go to trial. Even though from what I've been told, attys generally hate going to trial bc once there, it's somewhat of a crap shoot, so to speak. After all, look at KC & OJ. OJ's case, esp, seemed like a slam dunk. And yet, he was acquitted.

Regardless, I don't see the prosecuting atty offering a plea deal. Not for something of this nature. Nor do I see the defendant asking for a bench trial. He has a much better chance with a jury. Esp if his presentation continues to be as we saw on Monday's brief hearing.

And finally, since this case has less to do with "whodunnit" and more to do with "whyhedunnit," I will not be the least bit surprised if the defense atty goes for an NGRI. Esp, since, from my read, Colorado seems to have a higher success rate wrt such defenses. ( link (http://www.jaapl.org/content/16/1/35.full.pdf) )

It's a battle of mind experts whether he is insane or not
This is going to be hard to try but if they go to the jury, emotions will win :) IMO

February
07-27-2012, 12:17 AM
You have got to be kidding. The school is responsible because he failed a test? What in the world does it mean he isn't supposed to fail a test? There are no guarantees that a student isn't going to fail a test.


Like what i said, we dont have complete facts... did you read everything what i said? For me that is a theory.

With all people saying how good he is academically, why would he fail a first year test? Maybe he failed and maybe he deserved it. I dont know but IF... you know there is a word IF in there on my statement :)

and i will edit this just to add that i think you are over reacting. IMO

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 12:21 AM
MicroRNAs suggest a new mechanism for altered brain gene expression in schizophrenia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651256/

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 12:22 AM
He failed because he was buying guns and ordering supplies. He decided he didn't care long before that test, IMO.

February
07-27-2012, 12:24 AM
He failed because he was buying guns and ordering supplies. He decided he didn't care long before that test, IMO.

Maybe :)

Roxye
07-27-2012, 12:24 AM
MicroRNAs suggest a new mechanism for altered brain gene expression in schizophrenia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651256/

This is from 2009 and has absolutely NOT correlation to modern (2012) events.

Pure science changes from day to day.

Can you find ANYTHING that relates DIRECTLY to this event?

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 12:24 AM
It's a battle of mind experts whether he is insane or not
This is going to be hard to try but if they go to the jury, emotions will win :) IMO

Curious Me asks, "Whose emotions? Which emotions?

February
07-27-2012, 12:25 AM
Curious Me asks, "Whose emotions? Which emotions?

Jurors IMO..

I mean, JH will be found guilty because of the jurors emotions towards this case :)

jjenny
07-27-2012, 12:28 AM
Jurors IMO..

I mean, JH will be found guilty because of the jurors emotions towards this case :)

And not because of all the evidence?

February
07-27-2012, 12:30 AM
And not because of all the evidence?

I doubt but that's just my opinion again :)

jjenny
07-27-2012, 12:32 AM
"Universally, mass shooters [are] all about revenge," said Brad Garrett, a former FBI special agent and an ABC News analyst. "He wanted to pay society back for what he believed society had done to him. And I think the notebook will talk about that."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-mailed-massacre-plan-colorado-theater-shooting/story?id=16866594#.UBILVqDwGSo

zvzvzv
07-27-2012, 12:47 AM
"Universally, mass shooters [are] all about revenge," said Brad Garrett, a former FBI special agent and an ABC News analyst. "He wanted to pay society back for what he believed society had done to him. And I think the notebook will talk about that."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-mailed-massacre-plan-colorado-theater-shooting/story?id=16866594#.UBILVqDwGSo

i think the notebook will outline some 'scientific' explanation
for a rift between reality and fiction that rationalized JH's
actions in his delusional mindset.
i do think he has a delusional disorder, which should not
impede justice for his actions, but explains how this person
could seem to flip like a switch. delusional people will go
great lengths to maintain their beliefs.

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 12:53 AM
IF foxnews is right that the mail /package JH sent to a psychiatrist is sitting on the mail room for a week before the crime... i will possibly hear Lawsuits :)

IF JH failed in that Oral Exam that cause his depression and mental illnesses and he isnt really supposed to fail.... Yaiks, i hear a bigger Lawsuits.
Doubtful on the latter bc he had begun stock piling well before the exam. As for the former. If that package, did, indeed, sit in the mailroom for a week? I'm not sure they would really have a case. After all, mail room mixups happen. Unfortunately.

The big *however*.

Since we seem to be getting conflicting stories from the University, esp this bit ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/26/colorado-judge-bans-release-suspect-university-records/) ):


About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.
I admittedly question the university's latest claims. Esp considering they're so mixed ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/) ):


The University of Colorado Denver issued a statement Wednesday evening confirming that a suspicious package was found, but called the July 12 timeline "inaccurate." The university said it was delivered Monday and found on the same day.

When told of the university's statement, a source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre.
This behavior, together, leaves me wondering... did the prof receive the notebook? Not take it seriously (i.e., blow it off), and then the massacre occurs, so now they're trying to cover it up? If so, I certainly could see possible lawsuits... though, I'm still not sure how valid they would be.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 12:58 AM
Everybody reported that the package was not opened and still in mailroom. No professor received it.

emeraldeyes85
07-27-2012, 12:59 AM
That is a neat notion - an angle I never thought about BOTH MI/EVIL!

So many people toss the word "evil" around so much, what exactly does it mean, there is no scientific basis for this thing called evil and I dont even know what it means or how it is helpful to a conversation such as this. Are you trying to suggest he is possessed by some sort of devil or something because I really dont know what evil means and there is no science behind it at all, as a woman of science I cant wrap my head around these strange fairy tale like terms and labels.

February
07-27-2012, 01:01 AM
Doubtful on the latter bc he had begun stock piling well before the exam. As for the former. If that package, did, indeed, sit in the mailroom for a week? I'm not sure they would really have a case. After all, mail room mixups happen. Unfortunately.

The big *however*.

Since we seem to be getting conflicting stories from the University, esp this bit ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/26/colorado-judge-bans-release-suspect-university-records/) ):


About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.
I admittedly question the university's latest claims. Esp considering they're so mixed ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/) ):


The University of Colorado Denver issued a statement Wednesday evening confirming that a suspicious package was found, but called the July 12 timeline "inaccurate." The university said it was delivered Monday and found on the same day.

When told of the university's statement, a source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre.
This behavior, together, leaves me wondering... did the prof receive the notebook? Not take it seriously (i.e., blow it off), and then the massacre occurs, so now they're trying to cover it up? If so, I certainly could see possible lawsuits... though, I'm still not sure how valid they would be.

Thank you for your post.
I admire your way of posting :)

On the date he started buying a Glock Pistol Gun which is May 22, the next date on the school calendar is May 23 which is the deadline of grades. I am still doubting about the date of June 7 oral exam. They started their summer semester on June 4 already so all the grades before June 4 should be posted and this link bug me too
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443295404577543400613112424.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

When classes ended in May, the students were required to pass a first-year test referred to as the "prelims." The school said students had to stand before three professors and answer questions.

Shortly after the tests were done, the classmate said, a neuroscience administrator took the group for drinks to tell them Mr. Holmes had dropped out. The administrator said she received a short resignation email from Mr. Holmes that didn't explain why

jjenny
07-27-2012, 01:03 AM
Again, oral exam is not a regular test. It wouldn't have been graded. It's either pass or don't pass.
And it doesn't have to fit into regular exam schedule.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 01:05 AM
This is from 2009 and has absolutely NOT correlation to modern (2012) events.

Pure science changes from day to day.

Can you find ANYTHING that relates DIRECTLY to this event?
Yeh, he made a big presentation on them!

February
07-27-2012, 01:10 AM
Again, oral exam is not a regular test. It wouldn't have been graded. It's either pass or don't pass.
And it doesn't have to fit into regular exam schedule.


How come many news outlet are claiming this is a "key oral exam" ?

Accused movie theater gunman James Holmes purchased a high-powered rifle hours after failing a key oral exam at the University of Colorado, ABC News has learned.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UBIhnbT2aRk

jjenny
07-27-2012, 01:12 AM
How come many news outlet are claiming this is a "key oral exam" ?

Accused movie theater gunman James Holmes purchased a high-powered rifle hours after failing a key oral exam at the University of Colorado, ABC News has learned.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UBIhnbT2aRk

As opposed to what? There is only one preliminary exam which includes oral exam.

February
07-27-2012, 01:14 AM
As opposed to what? There is only one preliminary exam which includes oral exam.

You were saying that this oral exam is just a regular exam but many news outlet is claiming this is a key exam.

Key exam to continue the program? or not? and how do you know it is or isnt ?

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 01:19 AM
You have to understand that he didnt do anything illegal, he bought the guns legally and passed a federal background check in order to get them, all legal. The school had no way of knowing he was buying guns or tactical gear and they had no reason to call the police to check him out he wasnt breaking any laws and while we all, looking at the whole picture from the comforts of our homes after the fact, can clearly see some strange behavior when it is all added up together, the people around him didnt have the ability to see it all as one big picture with all the suspicious behavior connected, they saw bits and pieces only making it impossible for them to know he was going to do something like this.

You just cant go around sticking your nose in people's business like that and calling the cops for every little thing, it is not right and it is not fair to those of us who arent doing anything wrong but because we are a little different everyone is on the phone calling 911 to have us investigated because we have pink hair.

All due respect my friend but you really need to think about this and what the long term consequences are of living in a society with a bunch of tattletales watching everything we do and reporting us to the police for anything they think isnt "normal."

The fact is nothing could have been done to prevent this and nothing can be done to prevent it from happening again, it is the world we live in, and as sad as it is and as much as it sucks it is no worse than the mass murder going on in Pakistan/Afghanistan and Iraq everyday through the use of unmanned drones that are being used to kill untold thousands of innocent people who have done nothing wrong.

It is the world we live in and unless you want to give up your civil liberties so the cops can just snoop on you whenever they get the fancy, then you just have to accept it and do what you can to protect yourself and your loved ones.

It sucks, dont get me wrong but I dont want to live in a nanny state.



I start with this whole thing as it is not a sudden thing - IMO, he had been having trouble (sprialing out) for months. I do not believe he withdrew,( one reason why noone at school can say why - )
I think because of increasingly odd behaviors ( think of the witnesses that are starting to come out and talk about his strikingly odd behavior in being any where near him! Gun guys - heck one guy (gun range) did not want to have anything to do with him cause he heard his voice mail, and it scared him !

This kid is so ill - The notion that University folks who around him 7 hours a day would not observe his falling apart makes NO sense! Why they have said nothing,and if he had been seeing one of their staff docs (notebook) my my.

My thing is faculity / peers saw him fall apart over months (we certainly can say what orals were 7 weeks ago?) , my thing with their role, is to contact (mental health professional on campus- ------and look out, if the notebook, was a psychiatrist he had been seeing or saw WHEW! ) Has nothing to do IMO, with guns -- or breaking any law on JH part. (Obviously before last week).

jjenny
07-27-2012, 01:19 AM
You were saying that this oral exam is just a regular exam but many news outlet is claiming this is a key exam.

Key exam to continue the program? or not? and how do you know it is or isnt ?

I have said just the opposite. It's not a part of regular exams for which he would take classes then have exams.

February
07-27-2012, 01:23 AM
I have said just the opposite. It's not a part of regular exams for which he would take classes then have exams.

Ok.. do you have link or source for what you are saying?
I just want to read and maybe i will agree with you about this oral exam.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 01:31 AM
It is HUGE. Basically it determines if you go on academic probation and/ or they let you proceed to the next level. Its huge !

February
07-27-2012, 01:33 AM
I start with this whole thing as it is not a sudden thing - IMO, he had been having trouble (sprialing out) for months. I do not believe he withdrew,( one reason why noone at school can say why - )
I think because of increasingly odd behaviors ( think of the witnesses that are starting to come out and talk about his strikingly odd behavior in being any where near him! Gun guys - heck one guy (gun range) did not want to have anything to do with him cause he heard his voice mail, and it scared him !

This kid is so ill - The notion that University folks who around him 7 hours a day would not observe his falling apart makes NO sense! Why they have said nothing,and if he had been seeing one of their staff docs (notebook) my my.

My thing is faculity / peers saw him fall apart over months (we certainly can say what orals were 7 weeks ago?) , my thing with their role, is to contact (mental health professional on campus- ------and look out, if the notebook, was a psychiatrist he had been seeing or saw WHEW! ) Has nothing to do IMO, with guns -- or breaking any law on JH part. (Obviously before last week).

remembering the va tech again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

In the aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre, Virginia Governor Tim Kaine convened a panel consisting of various officials and experts to investigate and examine the response and handling of issues related to the shootings. The panel released its final report in August 2007, devoting more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's troubled history. In the report, the panel criticized the failure of the educators and mental health professionals who came into contact with Cho during his college years to notice his deteriorating condition and help him. The panel also criticized misinterpretations of privacy laws and gaps in Virginia's mental health system and gun laws. In addition, the panel faulted Virginia Tech administrators in particular for failing to take immediate action after the first shootings. Nevertheless, the report did acknowledge that Cho was still primarily responsible for not seeking assistance and for his murderous rampage

HMSHood
07-27-2012, 01:37 AM
Good article.... Thank you

The first photo of JH is on here.... IMHO - MI is written all over his face. And the other photo's just make it more clear - TO ME


Just a snip..........


The case of James Holmes has everything, however, to do with the fractured, fragmented, anemic state of psychiatry in America and our unwillingness to educate the public how to recognize symptoms of mental illness and what to do when those symptoms are identified.

Because, in the end, it will become clear that more than one person -- and probably several, including family, friends, neighbors, classmates, health care personnel or educators -- knew or should have known that James Holmes was confused, losing sight of reality, experiencing severe mood swings, withdrawing from the world around him, experiencing violent fantasies or all of the above.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/25/colorado-shooting-reminder-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/#ixzz21jnDKJUI

I am not too sure if Holmes is mentally ill. Here are two videos for comparison. For some reason, the person in the video being interviewed, Ashley Grills (Lori Drew's accomplice), sounds like she is disturbed and probably mentally ill. She has fear and bitterness in her voice. However, I have never seen any psychological profile on Grills. The second video is Cho's manifesto. He has a lot of pent up anger and is highly grandiose and paranoid. I have read that Cho was probably mentally ill.

Ashley Grills
Megan Meier Story 30 - YouTube

Seung-Hui Cho
Seung-Hui Cho full video Virginia Tech Shooter - YouTube

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 01:40 AM
Very interesting what it says, CARIIS. I see what you're saying, and if there were outright concerns for the safety of students, others, or himself, yes, that would be upsetting to find out otherwise. Yet, he was very clever to not show his plan to start hurting or killing anyone, IMO. I have to consider maybe he knew right from wrong, but just didn't care because he could always fake being insane.

He says he thought he was the joker, and he probably got his satisfaction in that theater actually killing even children. Come Monday he doesn't seem to have any connection to the joker anymore. What happened to that fixated delusion that went on for months of planning?
IMO, he most certainly, in court, was hearing things, that is why his facial stuff made no sense to observers, he was coming in and out of being the joker or wherever you know what I mean. And IMO IMO IMO psyc meds!

JBean
07-27-2012, 01:41 AM
Can we dial this back a bit and list with links the behavior we know of that should have led to some sort of red flag? I think this could be helpful.
Links need to be from MSM ONLY. Please don't embellish anything- just quote from articles and link.

Thanks.

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 01:43 AM
University of Colorado Denver (Downtown and AMC campuses)
Graduate School Rules and Policies (version 2.11 minor update 11/17/10)

This document outlines uniform rules, standards, and procedures for all graduate programs that are under the auspices of the Graduate School. Individual graduate programs, departments, schools or colleges may adopt more, but not less, stringent policies and/or requirements to those outlined in this document and should inform the Graduate School of such requirements.

[...]

(ii) Doctoral Degree Examinations ( pdf (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/Graduate-School/Documents/pdf/Consolidated-Rules-version-2_11.pdf), p 26 )


a. Preliminary Examination

Each program is responsible for ensuring that students are qualified for doctoral study by successfully passing a preliminary examination. Graduate programs that require students have a Master’s degree before they enter their Ph.D. program may exempt the student from taking a preliminary examination. The preliminary examination must occur within three semesters of completing the required courses as defined by the particular graduate program. The content and format of the preliminary examination are determined by the individual graduate program. The results (Pass/Fail) of the preliminary examination must be reported to the Graduate School. A student who fails the examination is subject to immediate dismissal from the Graduate School upon the recommendation of the program and concurrence of the Dean. At the program's discretion, a student who fails the examination may retake it.

ETA ~ from reading through their literature, it appears the orals can be taken at any time, *between* semesters. In this light, the June 7th date appears to make sense.

gitana1
07-27-2012, 01:54 AM
IF foxnews is right that the mail /package JH sent to a psychiatrist is sitting on the mail room for a week before the crime... i will possibly hear Lawsuits :)

IF JH failed in that Oral Exam that cause his depression and mental illnesses and he isnt really supposed to fail.... Yaiks, i hear a bigger Lawsuits.

We dont have complete facts for now and so the above could be wrong so all of these are just some theory on how could they be liable possibly......For now, am just wondering what Media is also after since they want record of his emails at that University.

I have explained this but it bears repeating. As an attorney, I can tell you definitively that the only way the school or anyone associated with the university could be found liable for what the murderer did is if the murderer threatened to harm himself or others, the university knew of the threat or should have known of the threat, the university did nothing to prevent the harm and the harm occurred.

Further, even if they did or should have known of specific threats prior to the threats being acted upon, which we do not yet know, they needed to have time to react. If there was not enough time, then there is no liability.

Additionally, even if this guy did make threats of harm, the university itself would be unlikely to bear any duty of care to those outside the university system. So, if those harmed were not university students, the university would not be liable.

Finally, a treating psychiatrist has a duty to warn under Colorado law, but only if there was a direct threat to harm a specific person or persons:

A physician, social worker, psychiatric nurse, psychologist, or other mental health professional and a mental health hospital, community mental health center or clinic, institution, or their staff shall not be liable for damages in any civil action for failure to warn or protect any person against a mental health patient's violent behavior, and any such person shall not be held civilly liable for failure to predict such violent behavior, except where the patient has communicated to the mental health care provider a serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CF8QFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fportfolio.du.edu%2Fportfolio%2Fg etportfoliofile%3Fuid%3D135304&ei=wykSUNzgMMXUiwLt7oCoDQ&usg=AFQjCNH91zYvPYfYY7sFm4owdRJN6yz84Q&cad=rja

That means a few things. One, if the murderer sent a package containing specific threats to harm someone, to a research psychiatrist or a psychiatric professor who was not treating the murderer, that psychiatrist would have no duty to warn. The murderer would have had to actually be a mental health patient of the psychiatrist for the mental health practitioner to have any duty associated with specific threats.

Two, it means that vague threats of violence, or threats to "take out a whole bunch of people" would not open up the mental health professional to liability.

Three, that means that changing one's hair color, becoming withdrawn, failing exams and/or dropping out of school, would not even come close to being threats to harm and even taken as a whole, even when coupled with the subject buying an arsenal, on the off chance that the university knew of that, would still not come close to constituting a threat of harm to a specific person or persons.

Yes, there may be lawsuits. Anyone can file a lawsuit. But that does not mean such lawsuits will have any merit or will result in a finding of liability against the university or the professionals that work there.

The bottom line is that unless the coward actually was being treated by a mental health professional at the university and told that mental health professional in advance, that he was going to massacre people at the theater, there is zero liability.

This is my professional opinion as a lawyer.

February
07-27-2012, 01:55 AM
University of Colorado Denver (Downtown and AMC campuses)
Graduate School Rules and Policies (version 2.11 minor update 11/17/10)

This document outlines uniform rules, standards, and procedures for all graduate programs that are under the auspices of the Graduate School. Individual graduate programs, departments, schools or colleges may adopt more, but not less, stringent policies and/or requirements to those outlined in this document and should inform the Graduate School of such requirements.

[...]

(ii) Doctoral Degree Examinations ( pdf (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/Graduate-School/Documents/pdf/Consolidated-Rules-version-2_11.pdf), p 26 )


a. Preliminary Examination

Each program is responsible for ensuring that students are qualified for doctoral study by successfully passing a preliminary examination. Graduate programs that require students have a Master’s degree before they enter their Ph.D. program may exempt the student from taking a preliminary examination. The preliminary examination must occur within three semesters of completing the required courses as defined by the particular graduate program. The content and format of the preliminary examination are determined by the individual graduate program. The results (Pass/Fail) of the preliminary examination must be reported to the Graduate School. A student who fails the examination is subject to immediate dismissal from the Graduate School upon the recommendation of the program and concurrence of the Dean. At the program's discretion, a student who fails the examination may retake it.

ETA ~ from reading through their literature, it appears the orals can be taken at any time, *between* semesters. In this light, the June 7th date appears to make sense.

wow Nice find. This say how crucial this exam is then.
Is it possible that he could have take this exam before May 22 and re-take it on June 7?

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 01:57 AM
Sometimes it almost sounds like we all agree. I'm glad there's a notebook and that it is evidence of intent and some kind of rage most likely. He was MAD and that's not always MI.

February
07-27-2012, 02:02 AM
Thank you Gitana1.
I do believe that we only know 10% of the story and 5% of that story could be wrong too so majority of what we say are based on what media gave us.
I guess we all have to wait and see for any trial docs that will be available for us ..

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:06 AM
Per the UC Denver's press release ( link (http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/newsreleases/Pages/Neuroscience-Program-and-Holmes-information.aspx) ), here is the NIH grant. ( link (http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8265632&icde=13258876&ddparam=&ddvalue=&ddsub=&cr=17&csb=default&cs=ASC) )


Project Number: 5T32HD041697-12
Contact PI / Project Leader: RESTREPO, DIEGO
Title: NEUROSCIENCE TRAINING GRANT
Awardee Organization: UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO DENVER

Abstract Text:

DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant):

This is a competitive renewal of a Jointly Sponsored Neuroscience Training grant that currently funds six slots for pre-thesis Ph.D. students in the Neuroscience Training Program (NSP) at the University of Colorado Denver (UCD). The NSP is an interdisciplinary Ph.D. granting degree started in 1986 that has been funded by an NIH training grant since 1993.

The 44 training faculty participating in this grant come from six basic science and six clinical departments. The faculty members have a combined funding of $29 M in direct annual grant dollars, and they have an outstanding record of previous training. Our graduates have a strong record as academicians and scientists. The average number of manuscripts published by our graduates during their tenure at UCD was 3 manuscripts.

Among the 35 graduate students as of the Fall of this year 65% are women, 14% underrepresented minorities or disabled and 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region. The focus of the NSP is on training outstanding neuroscientists and academicians who will make significant contributions to neurobiology, become leaders in the field and impart these qualities to future generations of neuroscientists. In addition, we aim to foster development of students who approach research in a responsible, professional manner.

In the last funding period the Curriculum Committee, working in close collaboration with the Director, refined a curriculum designed to attain these goals. The emphasis is on fostering increasing independence, responsible conduct and critical thinking through courses and laboratory rotations in the first year of instruction so that, in the second year and beyond, we have students who think independently and develop, troubleshoot and communicate effectively the results of their own hypothesis-driven projects.

Public Health Relevance Statement::

The purpose of this proposal is to train Neuroscience Ph.D. students to become independent investigators. This is an important goal because the study of the brain and the development of therapies for brain disorders are dependent on a well trained workforce of neuroscientists that will work at basic and translational levels.

Project Terms: Grant; Neurosciences; Training;

ETA ~ the above is just the abstract. Other info can be found in the tabs at the above link.

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 02:12 AM
James Holmes' Goofy Behavior Sign of Psychosis or Faking It, Expert Says

http://gma.yahoo.com/james-holmes-goofy-behavior-sign-psychosis-faking-expert-142209134--abc-news-topstories.html


"One is that he is in the middle of a psychotic episode which is quite possible. We see him distracted at multiple points, an almost sort of 'coming to' and trying to figure out where he is and process what's going on," she said."

"The other thing that we're seeing -- and we've seen some of this behavior in the past couple months -- might suggest mania. Meaning hyperactivity, hyper energy, been possibly up and not sleeping for days. What we might be seeing here is the post effects."

"But Randazzo also said there was a third possibility. He might simply be faking it."

gitana1
07-27-2012, 02:13 AM
remembering the va tech again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

In the aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre, Virginia Governor Tim Kaine convened a panel consisting of various officials and experts to investigate and examine the response and handling of issues related to the shootings. The panel released its final report in August 2007, devoting more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's troubled history. In the report, the panel criticized the failure of the educators and mental health professionals who came into contact with Cho during his college years to notice his deteriorating condition and help him. The panel also criticized misinterpretations of privacy laws and gaps in Virginia's mental health system and gun laws. In addition, the panel faulted Virginia Tech administrators in particular for failing to take immediate action after the first shootings. Nevertheless, the report did acknowledge that Cho was still primarily responsible for not seeking assistance and for his murderous rampage


Thank you Gitana1.
I do believe that we only know 10% of the story and 5% of that story could be wrong too so majority of what we say are based on what media gave us.
I guess we all have to wait and see for any trial docs that will be available for us ..

Yes, we do have to wait. But, please remember this: The guy who massacred 32 people at Virginia Tech showed serious signs that he was capable of major harm and many of his professors and fellow students saw signs of significant and dangerous mental issues. Yet neither the university nor the university professionals who interacted with the killer, nor the mental health professionals who treated the killer, were ever found legally liable for a failure to warn or a breach of any duty of care when it came to dealing with his possible mental issues or state of mind.

The university was found liable for something connected with the massacre but that had zero to do with a duty to warn or a lapse in a duty of care associated with any threats of harm or behaviors indicating that the killer was dangerously disturbed. Instead, it was for failing to notify students that someone was shooting people, when the massacre began.

February
07-27-2012, 02:13 AM
shadowraiths,

on your NIH grant link http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8265632&icde=13258876&ddparam=&ddvalue=&ddsub=&cr=17&csb=default&cs=ASC

Among the 35 graduate students as of the Fall of this year 65% are women, 14% underrepresented minorities or disabled and 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region.


Disabled? Is JH one of them maybe?

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:16 AM
The bottom line is that unless the coward actually was being treated by a mental health professional at the university and told that mental health professional in advance, that he was going to massacre people at the theater, there is zero liability.

This is my professional opinion as a lawyer.
I agree. And while IANAL, in forensic psych, we did study Tarasoff (duty to warn). Which I believe is what you're referring to.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:18 AM
James Holmes' Goofy Behavior Sign of Psychosis or Faking It, Expert Says

http://gma.yahoo.com/james-holmes-goofy-behavior-sign-psychosis-faking-expert-142209134--abc-news-topstories.html



Well, that pretty much covers everything, doesn't it? LOL.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:19 AM
shadowraiths,

on your NIH grant link http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8265632&icde=13258876&ddparam=&ddvalue=&ddsub=&cr=17&csb=default&cs=ASC

Among the 35 graduate students as of the Fall of this year 65% are women, 14% underrepresented minorities or disabled and 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region.


Disabled? Is JH one of them maybe?

What in the world would his disability be?

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:19 AM
shadowraiths,

on your NIH grant link http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8265632&icde=13258876&ddparam=&ddvalue=&ddsub=&cr=17&csb=default&cs=ASC

Among the 35 graduate students as of the Fall of this year 65% are women, 14% underrepresented minorities or disabled and 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region.


Disabled? Is JH one of them maybe?
Don't forget, "disabled" can mean anything from learning disabled to physically disabled. Importantly, there have been no reports that JH was classified as "disabled" (i.e., someone who qualified for SSDI).

February
07-27-2012, 02:21 AM
What in the world would his disability be?

I dont know.....

February
07-27-2012, 02:21 AM
Don't forget, "disabled" can mean anything from learning disabled to physically disabled. Importantly, there have been no reports that JH was classified as "disabled" (i.e., someone who qualified for SSDI).

Ok. Do you think he is disabled?

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:22 AM
I dont know.....

He appears to be a perfectly able Caucasian male. Neither female, minority, nor disabled.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 02:22 AM
It's a battle of mind experts whether he is insane or not
This is going to be hard to try but if they go to the jury, emotions will win :) IMO
I don't know - I don't think hell pass competency) BUT a Jury seeing 12 dead bodies , and hey gruesome , but evidently there was a lot of blood all over the place slipping in it jst -- even it ever made it that far.

February
07-27-2012, 02:24 AM
He appears to be a perfectly able Caucasian male. Neither female, minority, nor disabled.

I dont think he is part of the 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region too..

Is UCR a rural college? It isnt in the Rocky Mountain Region either.

mister happy
07-27-2012, 02:25 AM
Isn't the insanity defense the hardest defense to float?

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 02:27 AM
i think the notebook will outline some 'scientific' explanation
for a rift between reality and fiction that rationalized JH's
actions in his delusional mindset.
i do think he has a delusional disorder, which should not
impede justice for his actions, but explains how this person
could seem to flip like a switch. delusional people will go
great lengths to maintain their beliefs.
Indeed!

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 02:30 AM
I remember that article where one of the victims describes JH yelling "I said stand up!" Can anybody find a link to put here?

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 02:31 AM
Doubtful on the latter bc he had begun stock piling well before the exam. As for the former. If that package, did, indeed, sit in the mailroom for a week? I'm not sure they would really have a case. After all, mail room mixups happen. Unfortunately.

The big *however*.

Since we seem to be getting conflicting stories from the University, esp this bit ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/26/colorado-judge-bans-release-suspect-university-records/) ):


About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.
I admittedly question the university's latest claims. Esp considering they're so mixed ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/) ):


The University of Colorado Denver issued a statement Wednesday evening confirming that a suspicious package was found, but called the July 12 timeline "inaccurate." The university said it was delivered Monday and found on the same day.

When told of the university's statement, a source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre.
This behavior, together, leaves me wondering... did the prof receive the notebook? Not take it seriously (i.e., blow it off), and then the massacre occurs, so now they're trying to cover it up? If so, I certainly could see possible lawsuits... though, I'm still not sure how valid they would be.
then the massacre occurs, so now they're trying to cover it up?

From day one first time I saw that gang "Felt" like BS! Just gut - then more and more nfo pls, Dont remember source but I remember earlier a faculity member saying we got email advising not to talk - thats just not academia!

Oh I hate it when this happens I smell fish !

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:32 AM
Ok. Do you think he is disabled?
Ethically speaking, unlike the talking heads, I won't be putting forth any sort of diagnostic opinion. Armchair, or otherwise.


I dont think he is part of the 9% are students from rural colleges and universities in the Rocky Mountain Region too..

Is UCR a rural college? It isnt in the Rocky Mountain Region either.
UC Denver is in the Rocky Mountain Region. And don't forget, remaining 14% would be caucasian males.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:33 AM
Ethically speaking, unlike the talking heads, I won't be putting forth any sort of diagnostic opinion. Armchair, or otherwise.


UC Denver is in the Rocky Mountain Region. And don't forget, remaining 14% would be caucasian males.
Since some of the females could also be minority/disabled, % of Caucasian males could be higher.

February
07-27-2012, 02:34 AM
Ethically speaking, unlike the talking heads, I won't be putting forth any sort of diagnostic opinion. Armchair, or otherwise.


UC Denver is in the Rocky Mountain Region. And don't forget, remaining 14% would be caucasian males.

Got it :) I thought they based it from UCR where he came from :)

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 02:35 AM
Everybody reported that the package was not opened and still in mailroom. No professor received it.
That came out later IMO, they knew all along (that is the coverup) protecting the psychiatrist. Speculation: Can you imagine when one of admins psychiatrist calls admin that night and says - whatever his name is! Bob I was treating him.Or I had treated him , oh boy oh boy.........

JBean
07-27-2012, 02:36 AM
then the massacre occurs, so now they're trying to cover it up?

From day one first time I saw that gang "Felt" like BS! Just gut - then more and more nfo pls, Dont remember source but I remember earlier a faculity member saying we got email advising not to talk - thats just not academia!

Oh I hate it when this happens I smell fish !
PLease do not point to the university at this time. There is nothing to support a claim of impropriety on their part that was a factor in Holmes shooting innocent people.
If it comes out they knew he would do this and did not tell anyone- then things could change. But until such time it is not a founded accusation. Let's wait for more info.
Thanks.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:39 AM
Got it :) I thought they based it from UCR where he came from :)

Yes, they would base it on undergraduate education, so he wouldn't be from Rocky Mountain Region.
He is most likely simply classified as a white male.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 02:39 AM
remembering the va tech again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

In the aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre, Virginia Governor Tim Kaine convened a panel consisting of various officials and experts to investigate and examine the response and handling of issues related to the shootings. The panel released its final report in August 2007, devoting more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's troubled history. In the report, the panel criticized the failure of the educators and mental health professionals who came into contact with Cho during his college years to notice his deteriorating condition and help him. The panel also criticized misinterpretations of privacy laws and gaps in Virginia's mental health system and gun laws. In addition, the panel faulted Virginia Tech administrators in particular for failing to take immediate action after the first shootings. Nevertheless, the report did acknowledge that Cho was still primarily responsible for not seeking assistance and for his murderous rampage
And this piece from your piece !

The panel also criticized misinterpretations of privacy laws and gaps in Virginia's mental health system and gun laws.

Virginia Tech fined $55000 in 2007 shooting rampage - CNN





articles.cnn.com/.../virginia.tech.fine_1_shooting-rampage-clery-act-...


Mar 29, 2011 – Virginia Tech will be fined $55000 for waiting too long to provide timely warnings about a shooter on the loose during a 2007 rampage in which........

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:41 AM
Isn't the insanity defense the hardest defense to float?
After hinckley, NGRI became very hard to win. As it stands today, less than 1% of cases that go to trial involve an NGRI defense. And of those, yes, they are very hard to win.

In fact, if you have time, I urge you to check out the case of Ralph Tortorici, which was covered by PBS ( link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/) ). It was an extremely tragic case, where, imho, justice was not served. Importantly, it clarifies just what NGRI cases are actually up against.

That said, imho, the primary problem is, people often confuse mental illness with legal insanity. Our prisons are full of mentally ill criminals who do not meet the criteria for legal insanity.

Even so, arguably, the conditions exacerbate their illness, which in turn, imho, plays a role with increased risk wrt recidivism.

Still, our society, specifically, the american society, tends to strongly hold the eye-for-an-eye mentality. So, you end up with states abolishing NGRI completely, while forgetting the reason it exists in the first place.

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 02:42 AM
EXCLUSIVE: Massacre suspect James Holmes' gun-range application drew red flag

"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/22/massacre-suspect-james-holmes-gun-range-application-drew-red-flag-for-owner/#ixzz21np3k1gy

jjenny
07-27-2012, 02:43 AM
EXCLUSIVE: Massacre suspect James Holmes' gun-range application drew red flag

"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/22/massacre-suspect-james-holmes-gun-range-application-drew-red-flag-for-owner/#ixzz21np3k1gy

Lots of people from the academia say Cheers, actually. I guess they don't normally go to the gun-range.

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 02:44 AM
PLease do not point to the university at this time. There is nothing to support a claim of impropriety on their part that was a factor in Holmes shooting innocent people.
If it comes out they knew he would do this and did not tell anyone- then things could change. But until such time it is not a founded accusation. Let's wait for more info.
Thanks.
That would be my fault for raising that as a possibility. I apologize.

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 02:45 AM
Well, cheers...:offtobed:

February
07-27-2012, 02:56 AM
Video Interview of the guy. Jackie Mitchell who had beer with JH on July 9 . He said Hair Color is not yet red-orange that time but brown.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/07/20/i-had-beer-suspected-killer

Liz
07-27-2012, 03:10 AM
Lots of people from the academia say Cheers, actually. I guess they don't normally go to the gun-range.

In Rotkovich's world, as the owner of a gun range, he was probably used to seeing email closings more along the lines of, "Keep your powder dry".
I'd imagine 'cheers' was a first for him. lol

Overall, I think it's good that Rotkovich had a gut instinct feeling about JH!

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 03:12 AM
That would be my fault for raising that as a possibility. I apologize.
And I must take responsibliy as well in that I have posting trgarding school officials as well!

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 03:15 AM
In Rotkovich's world, as the owner of a gun range, he was probably used to seeing email closings more along the lines of, "Keep your powder dry".
I'd imagine 'cheers' was a first for him. lol

Overall, I think it's good that Rotkovich had a gut instinct feeling about JH!
And very IMO, telling about JH presentation to strangers in passing, who noticed BEACASE odd behaviors weeks before massacre IMO

shadowraiths
07-27-2012, 04:21 AM
How James Holmes will be evaluated by psychiatrists ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/07/24/how-james-holmes-will-be-evaluated-by-psychiatrists) )
By Dr. Keith Ablow
July 24, 2012, FoxNews.com


First, given the extraordinary change in Holmes' mental status--from brilliant neuroscience Ph.D candidate to a mass killer--all organic (i.e. physical) causes for psychiatric symptoms must be excluded via an extensive medical work-up, including an MRI (to rule out a brain tumor or slow bleed), an EEG (to rule out seizures), a lumbar puncture (to obtain cerebrospinal fluid to rule out a central nervous system infection) and blood work (to rule out toxicity from heavy metals, other physiological abnormalities and any use by Holmes of illicit drugs). Any medication with which Holmes has recently been treated will be considered for its possible psychiatric side effects.

[...]

The medical and psychiatric evaluation(s) will also form the basis of any "insanity" plea Holmes may put forward. The questions at the heart of that matter will be whether a major mental illness so impaired Mr. Holmes as to render him unable to tell right from wrong, or if he still knew right from wrong, and whether an illness so impaired him as to render him unable to conform his behavior to the requirements of the law.

[...]

Holmes' journey through the system is just beginning. Insanity pleas are notoriously unsuccessful. The vast, vast majority fail, probably because juries simply don't want to worry over whether a person capable of horrific acts will ever hit the streets. So, if Holmes should offer such a plea and prevail, it will be because he isn't even close to sane and because the culprit who stole 12 lives and shattered dozens more was mental illness, camouflaged by those accomplices who saw it hobbling a man and did nothing--or too little.

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 05:17 AM
huh? Did I miss something? Is this true?

Links with ***** in them are not allowed on this forum for various reasons. I'm guessing this one is perhaps a rumour, gossip blog type article.:moo:

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 05:58 AM
James Holmes' School Records: University Of Colorado Barred From Releasing Aurora Suspect's Info


What happened to the 24-year-old during his time in the program at the school's Anschutz Medical Campus is one of the many mysteries stemming from last Friday's mass shooting at a theater in which he's accused of killing 12 people and injuring 58 others at a midnight showing of "The Dark Knight Rises."


Numerous media organizations, including The Associated Press, filed open records requests for school records about Holmes after he was named as the suspect in the shooting that happened just after midnight July 20.

But in an order signed Monday and released by the school Thursday in response to an open records request by the AP, District Court Judge William Blair Sylvester said releasing information in response to requests filed under the Colorado Open Records Act would "impede an ongoing investigation." Sylvester is overseeing the criminal case against Holmes, who is expected to appear in court Monday and be formally charged.

Sylvester cited a provision of the Colorado Open Records Act that prevents the public from viewing open records "prohibited by ... the order of any court."

Arapahoe County District Attorney Carol Chambers requested the order after the University of Colorado Denver warned her office Saturday about the record requests. In its request to the court, the district attorney's office noted that reporters were not requesting educational records, which would be prohibited from being released, but emails that are not exempted from the open records law.

The order was not part of the publicly available case file until Thursday due to a clerical error, said Robert McCallum, a spokesman for the courts.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/james-holmes-school-records_n_1707173.html

If anyone can figure this out, help me. :waitasec: I'll go make coffee.

21merc7
07-27-2012, 06:04 AM
James Holmes' School Records: University Of Colorado Barred From Releasing Aurora Suspect's Info



If anyone can figure this out, help me. :waitasec: I'll go make coffee.

Here's the Order, going to read it now, must have coffee:

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-26%20Order%20Regarding%20P-2.pdf

ETA: Okay, the University cannot release anything until the trial is over, public info or not, unless Judge gives another Order stating they can. Dated July 23, 2012.

However, the prosecution and defense can obtain the records via proper subpoena.

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 06:15 AM
Here's the Order, going to read it now, must have coffee:

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-26%20Order%20Regarding%20P-2.pdf

ETA: Okay, the University cannot release anything until the trial is over, public info or not, unless Judge gives another Order stating they can. Dated July 23, 2012.

However, the prosecution and defense can obtain the records via proper subpoena.

French roast strong dark coffee...here you go.

Thanks that makes it a lot clearer. So his emails are included in the order! I wondered why his school records would but not his emails.

Zoe Bogart
07-27-2012, 06:39 AM
I appreciate what you all have to say. I do not trust some of the news sources and experts yet.

We all believe mental illness is possible in some people. Many of us have been exposed to MI, and feel we can spot it. Do we already have enough info on JH to determine his condition? No.

Doctors usually don't diagnose any physical or mental condition without it meeting criteria.

Personally, I want to learn more about delusions and psychosis in general. How delusions can become a fixed belief in the mind interests me. I'm hearing of too many people that "just snapped" in our society. It almost seems the handy-dandy excuse - they just snapped. Oh, but then we find out she shot her brother in childhood, or something that might tell us it wasn't all that sudden.

Killing people is such a willful act, especially when you have to buy tons of equipment months ahead of time. Right now, no passes from me that he was too MI to stop himself.

Plus, there's con jobs even within MI. Did JH not stop himself from killing because he knew he could fake a MI? I don't know.


Bingo. This is the only thing that has made sense so far to me--- he was mentally all there. Evil but not crazy. Let's just hope he doesn't get a CA jury that will let him walk.

Willful act. Fake MI. Yep, I'm going with EVIL, too.

Yes, I think there are evil people out there who aren't MI, just evil.

21merc7
07-27-2012, 06:43 AM
Seen several posts about not understanding what evil means, here is what the American Heritage Dictionary has to say:

e·vil (ē'vəl)
Share: e·vil
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
adv.
Archaic
In an evil manner.
[Middle English, from Old English yfel; see wap- in Indo-European roots.]

http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=evil

Expect the term malice to be used in legal terms, here is a link:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Evil+purpose

songline
07-27-2012, 07:28 AM
I start with this whole thing as it is not a sudden thing - IMO, he had been having trouble (sprialing out) for months. I do not believe he withdrew,( one reason why noone at school can say why - )
I think because of increasingly odd behaviors ( think of the witnesses that are starting to come out and talk about his strikingly odd behavior in being any where near him! Gun guys - heck one guy (gun range) did not want to have anything to do with him cause he heard his voice mail, and it scared him !

This kid is so ill - The notion that University folks who around him 7 hours a day would not observe his falling apart makes NO sense! Why they have said nothing,and if he had been seeing one of their staff docs (notebook) my my.

My thing is faculity / peers saw him fall apart over months (we certainly can say what orals were 7 weeks ago?) , my thing with their role, is to contact (mental health professional on campus- ------and look out, if the notebook, was a psychiatrist he had been seeing or saw WHEW! ) Has nothing to do IMO, with guns -- or breaking any law on JH part. (Obviously before last week).

I agree that people had to see his odd behavior. May have just thought he was a quirk - OFTEN the illness begins to escalate in the 20's - JH may have seemed shy - but was in turmoil internally. They know something is not right and they DO hide it very well for as long as they can.
IMHO this gag order is not serving. While he has rights, gag order smells more like hiding information then revealing information. Yes I understand about laws, and rights.
But in my head gag order on a case like this stinks. ONLY J.H IS TO BLAME.
Not the school, or the movie, or the parents, but I am certain that people did see and see very questionable behavior long before he totally unraveled.

songline
07-27-2012, 07:40 AM
I am not too sure if Holmes is mentally ill. Here are two videos for comparison. For some reason, the person in the video being interviewed, Ashley Grills (Lori Drew's accomplice), sounds like she is disturbed and probably mentally ill. She has fear and bitterness in her voice. However, I have never seen any psychological profile on Grills. The second video is Cho's manifesto. He has a lot of pent up anger and is highly grandiose and paranoid. I have read that Cho was probably mentally ill.

Ashley Grills
Megan Meier Story 30 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD9OUas5pDs)

Seung-Hui Cho
Seung-Hui Cho full video Virginia Tech Shooter - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyalPi1GeDY)

Mental illness does not show up the same way all the time, so a comparison is not possible.
there are as many variations in MI as there are people, some symptoms are same, for certain ailments. HOWEVER: for example while there are 3 forms of bipolar there are thousands of different ways it shows up. Sadly it OFTEN does not show up till someone is in their late teens maybe 20’s. I wish it was simpler but it is far more complex then we can discuss here.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 07:44 AM
I remember that article where one of the victims describes JH yelling "I said stand up!" Can anybody find a link to put here?
IMO, total fabrication. Those claims were made by the friend who put her finger,alledgly,into her firnds neck to stop bleeding.

It was odd,(contrary to every single person the theatre) and they reported like 4 days later - every other witness said he said nothing throughout

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 07:50 AM
Video Interview of the guy. Jackie Mitchell who had beer with JH on July 9 . He said Hair Color is not yet red-orange that time but brown.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/07/20/i-had-beer-suspected-killer
Myron Melnick, the owner of Zephyr Lounge, remembers Jackie Mitchell in the bar Tuesday night, but not Holmes.

"We were not busy Tuesday night," he recalled . "I'm there seven nights a week, seven hours a night. I've talked to my bartenders, my security people, and we've never seen the guy.



Read more: Family identifies 27-year-old victim of Aurora theater shooting - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21118201/unknown-number-people-shot-at-aurora-movie-theater#ixzz21p54WJF0
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 07:52 AM
EXCLUSIVE: Massacre suspect James Holmes' gun-range application drew red flag

"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/22/massacre-suspect-james-holmes-gun-range-application-drew-red-flag-for-owner/#ixzz21np3k1gy
And to be afraid of someone from only a VM, IMO, sure must be bizairre huh?

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 07:53 AM
After hinckley, NGRI became very hard to win. As it stands today, less than 1% of cases that go to trial involve an NGRI defense. And of those, yes, they are very hard to win.

In fact, if you have time, I urge you to check out the case of Ralph Tortorici, which was covered by PBS ( link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/) ). It was an extremely tragic case, where, imho, justice was not served. Importantly, it clarifies just what NGRI cases are actually up against.

That said, imho, the primary problem is, people often confuse mental illness with legal insanity. Our prisons are full of mentally ill criminals who do not meet the criteria for legal insanity.

Even so, arguably, the conditions exacerbate their illness, which in turn, imho, plays a role with increased risk wrt recidivism.

Still, our society, specifically, the american society, tends to strongly hold the eye-for-an-eye mentality. So, you end up with states abolishing NGRI completely, while forgetting the reason it exists in the first place.
You know any stats regarding ruled incomp to stand?

songline
07-27-2012, 07:58 AM
EXCLUSIVE: Massacre suspect James Holmes' gun-range application drew red flag

"That also struck me as very, very strange,” Rotkovich said. “Who says ‘Cheers?’”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/22/massacre-suspect-james-holmes-gun-range-application-drew-red-flag-for-owner/#ixzz21np3k1gy


When I had read this article I said to myself. It is obvious if one man can notice that something seems off, then many others had to notice it too.

BUT there is nothing that one can do unless they exhibit to be a danger to themselves or someone else.

However anyone who is in the shooting range / gun business IMHO should be able to drop a dime and such a person should be looked into and stripped of any and all ammunition. JMO
It does not mean that JH would not find bombs or other ways to create havoc.
But it does mean that not all MI people can create bombs, and the havoc may be cut back.

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 08:01 AM
I agree that people had to see his odd behavior. May have just thought he was a quirk - OFTEN the illness begins to escalate in the 20's - JH may have seemed shy - but was in turmoil internally. They know something is not right and they DO hide it very well for as long as they can.
IMHO this gag order is not serving. While he has rights, gag order smells more like hiding information then revealing information. Yes I understand about laws, and rights.
But in my head gag order on a case like this stinks. ONLY J.H IS TO BLAME.
Not the school, or the movie, or the parents, but I am certain that people did see and see very questionable behavior long before he totally unraveled.

IMO, the fact that they also "gagged" his emails makes me think that there may have been some revealing information in them.

Also, according to the gag order it is the State that requested the order. Isn't that unusual? Isn't it usually the defense in an effort to give their client the right to a fair trial?

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 08:07 AM
And to be afraid of someone from only a VM, IMO, sure must be bizairre huh?

A lot of people I know say "Cheers" . That in itself is not bizarre at all. People even sign their memos/letters/emails "cheers". As posted on a previous thread regarding the Gun Range Club, IMO, his signature would have raised more red flags than a "Cheers" in his VM.

songline
07-27-2012, 08:15 AM
IMO, the fact that they also "gagged" his emails makes me think that there may have been some revealing information in them.

Also, according to the gag order it is the State that requested the order. Isn't that unusual? Isn't it usually the defense in an effort to give their client the right to a fair trial?

IMHO this judge should be removed. NOTHING should be hidden, all should be transparent.
While I can see not wanting to trial such a charged case in the public eye.
I think everything people know about JH should be open.

Ironically MI people hide all the time... hiding anything at this stage is enabling (not with intent to enable but it is) IMHO

I think putting all the information out so that JH can see he can no longer hide, would help on so many levels.
AGAIN: I would move to remove this judge, but I have no say ;)

rollinginit
07-27-2012, 08:18 AM
In response to the gun range mgr......IMO, my hubby goes to ranges all the time. They are usually pretty strict. The mgr's and members tend to keep a very close eye on everybody that is there. They (or the ones we have been to) also tend to be more leery of the younger adults unless you are the kid of a member or a known competition shooter. Any kind of assault weapon is going to be noticed. Gun members are nosey about what other members are shooting. LOL. I can't tell you how many times we have spent up there just talking to others about guns. My hubby could spend hours talking with a stranger over a gun or bow...or fishing...or hunting.:what:

When my hubby is going somewhere new to shoot (he did a competition shooting "golf" tournament in PA not to long ago)....if he doesn't talk to the mgr. that day he fills out his information or signs up......it's common for the mgr. or org. of the event to call him. I guess some people would call it "calling to shoot the breeze" but I think they call to see how knowledgeable my hubby is about guns. They usually ask him questions about where he usually shoots at, hunting, and they always ask what type of work he does. They always ask what type of guns does he plan on shooting at the range.

I can believe the mgr's statement about calling the shooter. It's possible the mgr. was busy or not there when the shooter applied.....or maybe you can apply online and submit your application. ???????? JMO.

songline
07-27-2012, 08:24 AM
That to me is what it comes down to. Even with MI like your daughter's and mine, it comes down to intent. Your daughter is not evil, I am not evil. So to think because of our MI, we could do something like this is just APPALLING!


MI doesn't not equate to the acts JH perpetrated! He 'might' be MI, but just because he was MI, it doesn't mean that he isn't evil.

Your daughter, nor myself, who are both MI are not evil. The thought that either of us could do this type of HORRIFIC act, makes those around us APPALLED that anyone would suggest this man's evil acts could even come close to the reality her and I deal with on a regular basis.

If he gets off because someone thinks his actions are because of MI, then the ENTIRE MI community loses the ground we are trying to gain by saying MOST of us, are struggling hard NOT being this type of human. We WANT to NOT feel like this, we WANT to not be associated with this HORRENDOUS act. WE, as a WHOLE, in the MI community ARE NOT EVIL!

Giving this man this out! This,,,,, oh he's MI!..... disputes EVERYTHING the REAL MI community is trying to do.

Anyone in my shoes would do ANYTHING, just to be NORMAL. This man disputes EVERYTHING we want for ourselves in the MI community!



Sorry for your hardships ((((( big Hug )))))
HE will never get off, or see the light of day.
But in my opinion he is severely MI and functional. Yes he knew what he was doing, MI does not mean you have no clue what you are doing.
Most MI people struggle much, Many lead very healthy and successful lives when medicated.
There also exists an EVIL group within MI group, and we cannot deny that.

I think he will not get the DP because of it, but will get LWOP.
Furthermore it means to me that being able to walk into a store and buying ammunition should not be.
the laws should be edited to protect us from evil.

Blessings for your daughter.:beats:

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 08:25 AM
In response to the gun range mgr......IMO, my hubby goes to ranges all the time. They are usually pretty strict. The mgr's and members tend to keep a very close eye on everybody that is there. They (or the ones we have been to) also tend to be more leery of the younger adults unless you are the kid of a member or a known competition shooter. Any kind of assault weapon is going to be noticed. Gun members are nosey about what other members are shooting. LOL. I can't tell you how many times we have spent up there just talking to others about guns. My hubby could spend hours talking with a stranger over a gun or bow...or fishing...or hunting.:what:

When my hubby is going somewhere new to shoot (he did a competition shooting "golf" tournament in PA not to long ago)....if he doesn't talk to the mgr. that day he fills out his information or signs up......it's common for the mgr. or org. of the event to call him. I guess some people would call it "calling to shoot the breeze" but I think they call to see how knowledgeable my hubby is about guns. They usually ask him questions about where he usually shoots at, hunting, and they always ask what type of work he does. They always ask what type of guns does he plan on shooting at the range.

I can believe the mgr's statement about calling the shooter. It's possible the mgr. was busy or not there when the shooter applied.....or maybe you can apply online and submit your application. ???????? JMO.

I think the suspect applied online and his signature is just a "font" based text from one of the options available in WORD. Not his signature.

BUT that did in itself is not what raised the red flag. The suspect's VM did. Because he said Cheers? :waitasec:

songline
07-27-2012, 08:32 AM
Songline please don't think that I am of the opinion that MI is bs because I am not.. I've seen it up close and personal and dealt with it in many close friends as well as family members. I know it is alive and well and can make ones life a living hell for both the person suffering from it along with all those around them.. I know that you've had a rough go of it with your daughter.. Believe me tho I must admit I chuckled for a moment at how you described your once having called for help for her and that she was so good at hiding and conning medical professionals that you were the one that ended up being taken in..(and I mean no disrespect by laughing it was just the way you told you have me with a mental picture of you being strapped down and carted off..lol)..

So, I know that you have very first hand personal knowledge of MI.. But believe when I speak of bs I am not speaking of MI not existing because I very much know that it does.. I'm just not giving this monster that benefit of the doubt at this time that he in fact is MI to a degree that would matter or hold any bearing in a court of criminal law for his heinous crimes..

That's all.. So, I didnt want you to misunderstand and think that my opinion was that MI is bs.. Because that's not how I feel..

thanks, :) but I have to reply to this...While funny in some way, it really was not..LOL
I was not strapped down LOL But I DO know of several cases where it did happen. In-fact NAMI teaches those cases to family of the MI so that when or if it comes up they know how to handle it.
No - In my case, we got to emergency room and she got them to check me out, and latter apologize, but it was close. I almost saw myself in a hospital gown.


Since you do have knowledge of it. Can you see WHY those people would get LWOP instead of DP ????

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 08:36 AM
A lot of people I know say "Cheers" . That in itself is not bizarre at all. People even sign their memos/letters/emails "cheers". As posted on a previous thread regarding the Gun Range Club, IMO, his signature would have raised more red flags than a "Cheers" in his VM.
This is funny! No I was not referring to cheers - responding to notion that there is huge data (regarding outward behaviors) in the fact that when the gun range guy called JH , his voice mail was so odd that he chose not to do business with him.

My notion - that there were overt easily discernable , overt, behavioial problems even from people who had never SEEN him.Indicates a bunch of severity to me!

THe notion IMO, that he had ONE bad day and is shopping for machine guns that afternoon, IMO, is kind of ludicrious!

rollinginit
07-27-2012, 08:37 AM
I think the suspect applied online and his signature is just a "font" based text from one of the options available in WORD. Not his signature.

BUT that did in itself is not what raised the red flag. The suspect's VM did. Because he said Cheers? :waitasec:

HAHA. Okay, I see what you mean. Maybe the mgr. is an older kind of guy. Maybe he just thought it was freaky to say cheers. I can see my grandpa looking at me strange if I said cheers. I still say yes sir and no sir/mam to adults and get strange looks.

21merc7
07-27-2012, 08:39 AM
IMO, the fact that they also "gagged" his emails makes me think that there may have been some revealing information in them.

Also, according to the gag order it is the State that requested the order. Isn't that unusual? Isn't it usually the defense in an effort to give their client the right to a fair trial?

It is not unusual for the State to ask for a Gag Order. They have "the burden of proof" in Court. I think they wanted a lid on this fast b.c it went worldwide within seconds of the incident beginning. They want a fair and impartial jury as much as the defense does.

In light of that case I don't speak of, lol, I am happy that the Order is in place. This defendant already has a lot of sympathizers, as evidenced by people thinking he is "hot", and any inside info will just make it harder for an impartial jury to truly be found, or one that isn't just there for the money to come afterward. (As we have seen in the past.)

songline
07-27-2012, 08:47 AM
please review andrea yates' case

Andrea Yates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

She never claimed she was innocent. Ever. She confessed from the get go.

Do you remember her husband standing by her side at first?
He supported her in the very beginning until the pieces came to light.

Yes another classic MI case but different and she did get LWOP.

Sonya610
07-27-2012, 08:50 AM
Plus, there's con jobs even within MI. Did JH not stop himself from killing because he knew he could fake a MI? I don't know.

Okay even if he is "faking" MI what is the benefit? It isn't like they are going to let him off because of it! He is going to be locked up for the rest of his life anyway. It wasn't like he had a plan to get away with this BUT if that failed plan B was to take MI!

Holmes had no hope of getting away with this, he didn't even try! He made sure his own apartment would be messed up (or blown up) so he didn't even have anywhere to go! Compare that to McDaniel, totally different, McDaniel had a very good plan and he came within minutes of succeeding and getting away with it scott free! If McDaniel was pretending to be MI that was plan B, in the event plan A (the perfect murder) failed.

songline
07-27-2012, 08:50 AM
HAHA. Okay, I see what you mean. Maybe the mgr. is an older kind of guy. Maybe he just thought it was freaky to say cheers. I can see my grandpa looking at me strange if I said cheers. I still say yes sir and no sir/mam to adults and get strange looks.

I am not so sure he was reacting only to the "cheers" part.
sometimes people sound creepy in some way, don’t know.
But he did sense something and he wanted to talk to him.

21merc7
07-27-2012, 08:53 AM
Okay even if he is "faking" MI what is the benefit? It isn't like they are going to let him off because of it! He is going to be locked up for the rest of his life anyway. It wasn't like he had a plan to get away with this BUT if that failed plan B was to take MI!

Holmes had no hope of getting away with this, he didn't even try! He made sure his own apartment would be messed up (or blown up) so he didn't even have anywhere to go! He apparently didn't even try to come up with a plan to avoid punishment, and getting arrested then acting MI does not seem like any sort of plan at all. Compare that to McDaniel, totally different, McDaniel had a very good plan and he came within minutes of succeeding and getting away with it scott free! If McDaniel was pretending to be MI that was plan B, plan A was the perfect murder.

My best guess would be he thinks he is "out smarting" everyone. I don't think it will work, if he is faking, the Forensic Psychologists for BOTH sides will know. Perhaps he also thinks it would spare him the death penalty. I have no idea really, just guessing.

songline
07-27-2012, 08:55 AM
Okay even if he is "faking" MI what is the benefit? It isn't like they are going to let him off because of it! He is going to be locked up for the rest of his life anyway. It wasn't like he had a plan to get away with this BUT if that failed plan B was to take MI!

Holmes had no hope of getting away with this, he didn't even try! He made sure his own apartment would be messed up (or blown up) so he didn't even have anywhere to go! He apparently didn't even try to come up with a plan to avoid punishment, and getting arrested then acting MI does not seem like any sort of plan at all. Compare that to McDaniel, totally different, McDaniel had a very good plan and he came within minutes of succeeding and getting away with it scott free! If McDaniel was pretending to be MI that was plan B, plan A was the perfect murder.

ITA... I do not think he is acting.


I think he will be there for life with no chance of getting out, I think he will get a degree in jail - I think he will look for a GF while in prison.

It is all to insane - I can see why some people rather see him get the DP because he will still have some kind of life while his victims will not. But because he is MI he will not get the DP.

Padua
07-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Do you remember her husband standing by her side at first?
He supported her in the very beginning until the pieces came to light.

Yes another classic MI case but different and she did get LWOP.

I'm confused. It says she was found NGRI and was transferred to a state psych hospital.

joe2857
07-27-2012, 09:21 AM
the next date on the school calendar is May 23 which is the deadline of grades. I am still doubting about the date of June 7 oral exam. They started their summer semester on June 4 already so all the grades before June 4 should be posted

Sorry for jumping in late, and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but there is nothing odd at all about JH taking his prelim exam after the semester is over. These exams are tough to schedule because they are oral exams and you need to find a time when everyone can meet -- the student and the faculty members on his/her committee. Of course, each school and each program is different, but these types of exams are often scheduled after the semester is over and people's schedules aren't as busy. In many graduate programs, the only requirement is that you have to take your "prelims" within a certain number of weeks or months after finishing your coursework. They are not like the "final exams" you take at the end of a class. They don't show up as "grades" on your transcript. They don't have to follow the university calendar.

And yes, I am speaking from personal experience.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 09:32 AM
Exactly!

And Meryl Streep is awesome. I have never seen (even the Academy Award winners) physically, have the ability to MAKE their eyes go vacant and disconnected! Their EYES (psychotic/decisions) clusters of MI) appear disengaged, off, not present, and distant.

If that is not an accurate description of the world saw, in court, then I must be disconnected with reality!!!!!!

There are clusters in M, I think Baskin Robbins (!) on a cone. You can mix and match flavors.

Delusions:

Delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity or believes he/she to be a famous person – nothing need be said!

A person with delusional disorder may be high functioning in daily life as this disorder bears disorder bears no relation to one's IQ.

It is an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force - joker. [3

That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life – relentless focus on obtaining an arsenal for months – 50 orders pretty intense!

Emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. Grad degree

The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal – shooting 70 human beings qualifies!

The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning capacity ; at some point perform admirably academically



The symptoms expressed by a delusional disorder can also be part of a much more serious problemDelusional disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JBean
07-27-2012, 09:34 AM
PLease do not point to the university at this time. There is nothing to support a claim of impropriety on their part that was a factor in Holmes shooting innocent people.
If it comes out they knew he would do this and did not tell anyone- then things could change. But until such time it is not a founded accusation. Let's wait for more info.
Thanks.
Had some questions. You can discuss the University and any action taken by them! Just be careful to not accuse them of being responsible for this crime. Let's see what info comes out. But discussing what they have or have not done, as we know it, is totally fine.
This is the psych profile thread so careful not to take it OT.Thanks and sorry for the confusion.


Also please remember to use MSM links for your information. Most blogs cannot be used to substantiate facts-some can. If a link comes out with ***** it cannot be posted here so please find another link for the information. If you cannot find another link for the info that please don't post it.
Thanks sorry for all the nagging first thing in the morning.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 09:36 AM
I'm confused. It says she was found NGRI and was transferred to a state psych hospital.

Yes, Yates is in a mental hospital. She had two trials. In first trial she was found guilty. In second trial she was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Now they are talking about her getting released into society one of these days.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 09:38 AM
Okay even if he is "faking" MI what is the benefit? It isn't like they are going to let him off because of it! He is going to be locked up for the rest of his life anyway. It wasn't like he had a plan to get away with this BUT if that failed plan B was to take MI!



What's the benefit? Isn't it obvious? If found guilty he could get the death penalty. If found not guilty by reason of insanity, he goes to a mental hospital from which he could be released one day. And if he is found not guilty by reason of insanity it is absolutely incorrect that he has to be locked up for the rest of his life.

songline
07-27-2012, 09:54 AM
I'm confused. It says she was found NGRI and was transferred to a state psych hospital.
That is an MI hospital and a lock down. She cant come out. I did not hear of them talking about her coming out one day.
AS for this guy.... he will not be coming out. None of these families will ever allow that. MOO

I cant see any similarity between her and this cas other then a case of MI. and there are many.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 10:05 AM
How James Holmes will be evaluated by psychiatrists ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/07/24/how-james-holmes-will-be-evaluated-by-psychiatrists) )
By Dr. Keith Ablow
July 24, 2012, FoxNews.com


First, given the extraordinary change in Holmes' mental status--from brilliant neuroscience Ph.D candidate to a mass killer--all organic (i.e. physical) causes for psychiatric symptoms must be excluded via an extensive medical work-up, including an MRI (to rule out a brain tumor or slow bleed), an EEG (to rule out seizures), a lumbar puncture (to obtain cerebrospinal fluid to rule out a central nervous system infection) and blood work (to rule out toxicity from heavy metals, other physiological abnormalities and any use by Holmes of illicit drugs). Any medication with which Holmes has recently been treated will be considered for its possible psychiatric side effects.

[...]

The medical and psychiatric evaluation(s) will also form the basis of any "insanity" plea Holmes may put forward. The questions at the heart of that matter will be whether a major mental illness so impaired Mr. Holmes as to render him unable to tell right from wrong, or if he still knew right from wrong, and whether an illness so impaired him as to render him unable to conform his behavior to the requirements of the law.

[...]

Holmes' journey through the system is just beginning. Insanity pleas are notoriously unsuccessful. The vast, vast majority fail, probably because juries simply don't want to worry over whether a person capable of horrific acts will ever hit the streets. So, if Holmes should offer such a plea and prevail, it will be because he isn't even close to sane and because the culprit who stole 12 lives and shattered dozens more was mental illness, camouflaged by those accomplices who saw it hobbling a man and did nothing--or too little.
Could / would organic include delusions if that was case or would it just be aggressive violent bxs? Sad state of affairs, however when working folks cant ($) get full medical evaluation but mass murders do FREE!

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 10:07 AM
Indeed - seemed noone cared. Be interesting to know the last time a parent or sister called him.

Padua
07-27-2012, 10:14 AM
Yes, Yates is in a mental hospital. She had two trials. In first trial she was found guilty. In second trial she was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Now they are talking about her getting released into society one of these days.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was wondering if I needed to order Hooked on Phonics to work on my reading comprehension skills.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:18 AM
That is an MI hospital and a lock down. She cant come out. I did not hear of them talking about her coming out one day.
AS for this guy.... he will not be coming out. None of these families will ever allow that. MOO

I cant see any similarity between her and this cas other then a case of MI. and there are many.

Oh they most certainly are talking about allowing her outside.

"Ten years after Andrea Yates was first convicted of murdering her five children, the Clear Lake mother might soon be allowed outside the confines of a state psychiatric hospital to go to church, her attorney told the Houston Chronicle on Tuesday."
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Andrea-Yates-seeks-weekly-release-from-mental-3439312.php

21merc7
07-27-2012, 10:22 AM
The differences between the Yates case and this one are huge!

This guy will not get out, he's not MI like Yates. He may have some sort of issue, but not like Yates.

His crimes are vastly different. If convicted, he will not get out.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:24 AM
If convicted, I agree. But if NGRI, then there is no law that says he couldn't get out one day.

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the confirmation. I was wondering if I needed to order Hooked on Phonics to work on my reading comprehension skills.
That only pertains to my typing/spelling! No computers back then -- write sloppy noone could tell!

CARIIS
07-27-2012, 11:10 AM
Entered wrong and earler error

Statistics : Length of incaracartion vs insanity

When it succeeds, offenders generally spend more time in mental institutions than they would have spent in prison if they had......... ..www.cliffsnotes.com/.../Legal-Defenses-Justifications-for-Crimes

a study at a mental institution in New York found that some patients spend a far larger amount of time committed than they would have spent in prison for their crimes.


....... insanity can easily spend more time in a mental institution than the defendant........ .suite101.com › ... › Law, Crime & Justice › Penal System

........are likely to spend as much or more time confined in a psychiatric ..
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

Persons judged NGRI spend more time in mental hospitals than in jail.www.u.arizona.edu/~dusana/psych381winter05/lecture13.ppt.

insanity spend more time in a mental hospital than they would if found guilty ...
law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hinckley/myth.htm