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JBean
07-26-2012, 02:07 AM
Please discuss here.

rollinginit
07-26-2012, 07:00 AM
"Sources say the letter was from a pent-up Holmes to one of his professors," the news organization reported. "In it, he talked about shooting people and even included crude drawings of a gunman and his victims."
School officials said in a statement that a package discovered at the Facilities Services building on Monday had been delivered to the campus by the U.S. Postal Service that same day and was turned over to authorities within hours of delivery.
"This package prompted the building's evacuation at 12:26 p.m. and employees were allowed to return by 3:06 p.m.," the statement said.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31302350/detail.html

Liz
07-26-2012, 07:28 AM
Fox News is still standing firmly by their story that JH mailed a notebook to a psychiatrist, chock full of details about how he was going to kill people. (A little earlier on Fox First I heard a report that they believe it arrived to UC on July 12th.)

Jana Winter, the reporter who broke the article, was just on Fox and Friends and said, "What we don't know is how specific it was to what actually happened, but there were definitely gun-holding stick figures shooting at other stick figures.".

Link to Jana Winter's report:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/?test=latestnews

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:07 AM
Fox News is still standing firmly by their story that JH mailed a notebook to a psychiatrist, chock full of details about how he was going to kill people. (A little earlier on Fox First I heard a report that they believe it arrived to UC on July 12th.)

Jana Winter, the reporter who broke the article, was just on Fox and Friends and said, "What we don't know is how specific it was to what actually happened, but there were definitely gun-holding stick figures shooting at other stick figures.".

Link to Jana Winter's report:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/?test=latestnews

I think everybody agrees JH send a package. University denies it arrived before the shooting.

Liz
07-26-2012, 09:16 AM
Sorry to quote my own post but I wanted to bring it over before the other thread gets closed later.


That link says a letter was mailed to a psychologist at the university... the Notebook says it was sent to a University of Colorado psychiatrist

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/#ixzz21gZnDGu4


so my question is - is the letter and the notebook a separate mail or package to different people?


Well, there is foxnews for you.


jjenny - Can you possibly clear this up, please? I have no way of knowing which news media outlet is providing the correct & factual information. And I like to try keep the facts straight. :)

jjenny
07-26-2012, 09:38 AM
Sorry to quote my own post but I wanted to bring it over before the other thread gets closed later.

I have no way of knowing which news network is providing accurate information. My guess is none, especially since because of gag order all of them are using anonymous sources. But looking at fox news story today, they already appear to be backtracking. Now their source says that maybe the package was postmarked on July 12, rather than arriving to University on July 12. University denies they got it before the shooting and claims it arrived on Monday.

"When told of the university's statement, a source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/#ixzz21jQXNyQx

Liz
07-26-2012, 10:15 AM
I have no way of knowing which news network is providing accurate information. My guess is none, especially since because of gag order all of them are using anonymous sources. But looking at fox news story today, they already appear to be backtracking. Now their source says that maybe the package was postmarked on July 12, rather than arriving to University on July 12. University denies they got it before the shooting and claims it arrived on Monday.

"When told of the university's statement, a source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/#ixzz21jQXNyQx

Thanks, jjenny. It doesn't appear to be 'backtracking' by FOX to me. It appears that once FOX presented one of their two 'sources' for the article with what the UC officials said, the article was updated to state the "source said the package may have been postmarked on July 12, but arrived before the massacre".

Even IF the package was postdated the 12th (and I'm not stating it was, as I do not know), there is no reason why UC wouldn't have had it on the 13th. But by Monday, the 16th, at the very latest.

I didn't see any backtracking; just updating, in my opinion. The news outlets can only go by what their confidential sources provide them. Of course, those sources are really not supposed to be revealing any information regarding the case after Judge Sylvester imposed the gag order on Monday.

I guess I'd rather have a little information and have to try to sift through it, than to get no information at all.

But really, what would most of us expect UC to say about the alleged packages arrival? Would we really expect them to admit to it IF the package had arrived on the 13th, thus making them somewhat negligent; due to not opening their mail and possibly preventing that horrific tragedy?

JMO

jjenny
07-26-2012, 10:20 AM
It arrived on July 12 vs it was postmarked July 12 are not one and the same. And yes, of course, these news organizations can hide behind "our sources told us." But they are using anonymous sources, and there have been a lot of contradicting information published already by the msm. I don't know what someone else would expect University to say about package arriving, but I expect them to tell the truth.

21merc7
07-26-2012, 10:30 AM
Tweet from News 9 in Aurora (bbm):


FULL TEXT OF NEWS RELEASE #TheaterShooting
Update on suspicious packages discovered at
University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus

AURORA, CO (July 25, 2012) – Officials at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus can confirm that the suspicious package discovered at the Facilities Services building on Monday, July 23, 2012, was delivered to the campus by the United States Postal Service that same day, immediately investigated and turned over to authorities within hours of delivery. This package prompted the building’s evacuation at 12:26 p.m. and employees were allowed to return by 3:06 p.m.

The anonymous Fox News source that the package was received on July 12 and sat on a loading dock is inaccurate.

We remain unable to discuss anything further on this package in accordance with the order of Judge Sylvester on July 23, 2012.

http://www.***************/show/ihd32j

ETA: Add link to News 9 news story containing same:

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/279621/665/Investigation-reveals-details-in-suspects-notebook-initial-response-times

21merc7
07-26-2012, 10:36 AM
It arrived on July 12 vs it was postmarked July 12 are not one and the same. And yes, of course, these news organizations can hide behind "our sources told us." But they are using anonymous sources, and there have been a lot of contradicting information published already by the msm. I don't know what someone else would expect University to say about package arriving, but I expect them to tell the truth.

You are correct, the University would tell the truth. In a situation like this, they would have no choice.

songline
07-26-2012, 10:41 AM
Fox News is still standing firmly by their story that JH mailed a notebook to a psychiatrist, chock full of details about how he was going to kill people. (A little earlier on Fox First I heard a report that they believe it arrived to UC on July 12th.)

Jana Winter, the reporter who broke the article, was just on Fox and Friends and said, "What we don't know is how specific it was to what actually happened, but there were definitely gun-holding stick figures shooting at other stick figures.".

Link to Jana Winter's report:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/?test=latestnews

I think there was a correction about that date later on. I don't have a link but
I seem to recall July 23...

OK here is something. it is at the end of the article.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/26/157403438/reports-notebook-from-colo-shootings-suspect-arrived-at-school-after-attack

JBean
07-26-2012, 10:57 AM
Just a reminder to use MSM links to substantiate fact.
No they don't always get it right but that's what we are sticking with here.
Gracias.

Liz
07-26-2012, 11:50 AM
Quotes pulled from a msm story posted 20 hours ago:


Police found the package as Holmes described it, including his name in the return address, and it's now being analyzed, the source said.

It was unclear how long the package had been in the mail room before its discovery.

In response to reporters' queries about the package, the Anschutz Medical Campus issued a statement saying it could not comment on anything regarding the ongoing criminal investigation into the theater shooting, under order of Arapahoe County District Judge William Sylvester.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/25/12950440-source-tip-from-accused-aurora-shooter-leads-authorities-to-package?lite

Prior to this story, IMO, UC was already trying to avoid & limit information provided to the media but now they are jumping on the the judge's gag order, which I'm almost certain doesn't even apply to them.

MayraMM
07-26-2012, 02:19 PM
I wonder why he's being so cooperative. Usually shooters like this kill themselves or commit suicide by cop, yet this guy told about the bombs in the apartment and the package sent to the university. Could it be remorse or a moment of lucidity? Or perhaps it didn't go down as planned. Maybe he expected to commit the shooting and have the building go up at the same time, then walk outside into a barrage of bullets. When it didn't happen that way, it ruined his party. He may have been hoping for a higher body count. Of course, this is all speculation, but I really hope we hear from him at some point what he was thinking.

Liz
07-26-2012, 02:35 PM
Jul 26, 2012 - Experts react to accused gunman's notebook mailed to psychiatrist before movie massacre

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1755292713001/

Liz
07-26-2012, 02:55 PM
Jul 26, 2012 - Legal panel weighs in on case (with Jenna Lee)

Unable to get video link to work, so .....

Try pasting this in your browser: video.foxnews.com/v/1756080141001/importance-of-notebook-sent-to-psychiatrist-in-co-massacre/?playlist_id=87485

If that doesn't work, go to video.foxnews.com and look for Importance of notebook sent to psychiatrist in CO massacre.

SmoothOperator
07-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Moo but the University has about zero choice of whether they want to be honest.. The fact is this is not a detail or details that they can lie about, twist the truth, or deceive and just sweep under the rug and keep out of the publics knowledge.. They do not have that choice wrt anything remotely related to this case.. Obviously that includes any/all details regarding the packages and notebook the shooter sent to the University..

Moo is its just another nail in the coffin of this shooter who is sorely mistaken if he's under the guise of somehow getting away with this(ie. his attempts at an insanity defense).. Because his little special delivery only further cements the amount of premeditation and planning that went into his murdering/injuring 70+ innocent human beings!!

Bye-bye Jimmy! And not bye-bye birdie to the loony bin!.. But much different bye-bye Jimmy to the Big House with the Big Boys that will eagerly be awaiting your p**** ass and welcome you with OPEN ARMS!!

x_files
07-26-2012, 05:04 PM
You are correct, the University would tell the truth. In a situation like this, they would have no choice.

Look at Penn State scandal. It's a business they may be in covering their ass mode. But, they should be honest and trustworthy source. I'd wait until trial and you see photos of the evidence. The post mark will tell the truth.

rollinginit
07-26-2012, 05:16 PM
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing........but I have several letters in my box at home that haven't been opened yet.

My hubby even has a huge box outside in the garage that was delivered from fed-ex about 3 weeks ago. It's un opened. We think/hope it's all the light bulbs we ordered.

Just saying....maybe there is no big rush on the teachers part to open mail, especially if it's unknown mail. Don't professors also receive a lot of junk stuff and other journals from other sources?

February
07-26-2012, 07:40 PM
What about this one ? News are stating mail/package by the dock, by the mailroom and this one states under the door of a professor.


Officials say one package was slipped under the door of a professor, who didn't recognize the sender. The other was in the campus mail system.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/suspicious-packages-at-co_n_1697627.html?utm_hp_ref=college&ir=College

Looks like there are multiple packages or letters out there and the one from July 12 package was found because FBI searched the mail room for more so they found out this package.

Although that package turned out to be from someone else and harmless, a search of the Campus Services' mailroom turned up another package sent to the psychiatrist with Holmes' name in the return address, the source told FoxNews.com.

Read more: http://www.myfoxla.com/story/19115835/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-sent-chilling-notebook-to-psychiatrist-before-attack#ixzz21m7BOkg0

February
07-26-2012, 07:47 PM
FYI :
U.S. Postal Service spokesman David Rupert said the agency's inspectors have no direct knowledge of the package reportedly containing the notebook. He said no one has contacted the Postal Service for assistance in the investigation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/report-suspect-described-_n_1705093.html

jjenny
07-26-2012, 07:51 PM
I wonder why he's being so cooperative. Usually shooters like this kill themselves or commit suicide by cop, yet this guy told about the bombs in the apartment and the package sent to the university. Could it be remorse or a moment of lucidity? Or perhaps it didn't go down as planned. Maybe he expected to commit the shooting and have the building go up at the same time, then walk outside into a barrage of bullets. When it didn't happen that way, it ruined his party. He may have been hoping for a higher body count. Of course, this is all speculation, but I really hope we hear from him at some point what he was thinking.

Many of mass shooters don't kill themselves or commit suicide by cop.
And it's rather obvious he didn't expect to be killed, considering all the protective gear.

songline
07-26-2012, 07:52 PM
I wonder why he's being so cooperative. Usually shooters like this kill themselves or commit suicide by cop, yet this guy told about the bombs in the apartment and the package sent to the university. Could it be remorse or a moment of lucidity? Or perhaps it didn't go down as planned. Maybe he expected to commit the shooting and have the building go up at the same time, then walk outside into a barrage of bullets. When it didn't happen that way, it ruined his party. He may have been hoping for a higher body count. Of course, this is all speculation, but I really hope we hear from him at some point what he was thinking.

He wants the lead part in the movie of this horror :waitasec: (just kidding)

February
07-26-2012, 07:53 PM
if we are talking about the Universitie's honesty here - decide for yourself :)

About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018778438_apuscoloradoshootingopenrecords.html

jjenny
07-26-2012, 07:55 PM
His teachers aren't supposed to talk about him because of FERPA.

February
07-26-2012, 08:02 PM
His teachers aren't supposed to talk about him because of FERPA.

what is 'fully free" then?

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:05 PM
what is 'fully free" then?

Other students who knew him don't have to worry about FERPA, as I believe it doesn't apply to them.

February
07-26-2012, 08:10 PM
Other students who knew him don't have to worry about FERPA, as I believe it doesn't apply to them.

ok...

maybe someone can ask Barry Shur what is the color of JH's hair prior to taking the Oral exam. I am sure this is not covered by FERPA. At NY Post, the postal deliveryman said that his hair was dyed orange since May. I dont know if that is true or not :)

Sorry this is a package delivery thread but we are discussing about the University, maybe this thread can also handle the discussion about the University? Admin?

jjenny
07-26-2012, 08:12 PM
ok...

maybe someone can ask Barry Shur what is the color of JH's hair prior to taking the Oral exam. I am sure this is not covered by FERPA. At NY Post, the postal deliveryman said that his hair was dyed orange since May. I dont know if that is true or not :)

Sorry this is a package delivery thread but we are discussing about the University, maybe this thread can also handle the discussion about the University? Admin?

What if he did have orange hair? That's not illegal. Would be considered freedom of expression. None of his teachers could probably even ask him about it, due to being PC.

February
07-26-2012, 08:16 PM
What if he did have orange hair? That's not illegal. Would be considered freedom of expression. None of his teachers could probably even ask him about it, due to being PC.

no it isnt illegal.
and I didnt say it is illegal

but some people form their decisions based on student's hair, tattoo, face, dresses and etc. Not all but "SOME" and i know that as a FACT because of experience :)

newsleuther
07-26-2012, 08:26 PM
At my college, a large number of students had all manner of crazy colored hair, orange would be the tamest.

It's not really something that people even notice in this day and age any longer.

February
07-26-2012, 08:34 PM
At my college, a large number of students had all manner of crazy colored hair, orange would be the tamest.

It's not really something that people even notice in this day and age any longer.

With all the latest technology out there , it simply changed a lot but there will a grumpy teacher that will always exist and will hate one student just because..... :) . Just like in a work place... some people are getting fired at work just because of their hair. This is a vague topic , so general but it is just common sense that they clearly exist.

Reannan
07-26-2012, 08:34 PM
Why did JH send this package???? I do not for one single moment think it was meant to be some sort of "intervention" where he would be "caught" before he carried out his atrocious act. This guy did NOT intend to be caught.... if he did, he would have been on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, etc.... I wonder if he deliberately sent it so it would be "lost" in the shuffle, and he could then use it to throw another layer of blame onto the University - and another layer of controvery for future lawyers? I work for a large University system, probably similar to the one in Colorado. Our mail system is FAMOUS for being slow... and unfortunately, for losing items. I would love to know how he addressed the package - if it was addressed to "Dr X" in "Building Y" - KNOWING that Dr. X did NOT work in Building Y, that would certainly delay it's delivery. In other words, I can see this sly little "Joker" deliberately putting the wrong building/name on the package to intentionally delay it's delivery. Bottom line - he sent it... that equals premeditation, which equals sanity. MOO...

scorekeeper
07-26-2012, 08:47 PM
I have 2 kids in college so I understand the freedom to express one's self. But based on all previous reports and pictures, I think it is important to understand when he started making changes to his previous life style (hair color, gun/ammo/body armour, etc). I know I want to be able to try to understand what went wrong, when it went wrong and why would he do this.

But sadly, I don't think even with understanding I will be able to truly forgive. He still supposedly opened fire in a movie theatre with innocent people there for a night out in a place they thought were safe.....but not anymore

Reannan
07-26-2012, 09:15 PM
I have 2 kids in college so I understand the freedom to express one's self. But based on all previous reports and pictures, I think it is important to understand when he started making changes to his previous life style (hair color, gun/ammo/body armour, etc). I know I want to be able to try to understand what went wrong, when it went wrong and why would he do this.

But sadly, I don't think even with understanding I will be able to truly forgive. He still supposedly opened fire in a movie theatre with innocent people there for a night out in a place they thought were safe.....but not anymore

I totally agree with you!!! I can not forgive either - but I don't have to because he has not asked for forgiveness. He is still playing his roll as the "Joker". Ha! Ha! Bleh! He planned this event, he organized this event, he documented this event, so he is COMPLETELY in control of himself and this event. As far as going to a movie... I went last Saturday to see the Batman movie. I have ALWAYS watched for suspicious people moving around in a movie because it is a creepy, dark place. I think maybe in the future, movie theatres may become like airplanes after 911.... if you flinch or move wrong - or unexpectadly.... woe be you. That is a sad statement for the illusion we have all shared about how safe our world is. Cave men and women were faced with threats EVERY day!!! I still think we live in a beautiful world, but it is NOT a safe haven - and it never has been. We just need to be aware of the threats. Now... we have a new source of attack. :notgood:

Liz
07-26-2012, 11:35 PM
I stand corrected. I read the gag orders prior to posting and I didn't see the university listed. Oops, my bad!

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31309937/detail.html


Prior to this story, IMO, UC was already trying to avoid & limit information provided to the media but now they are jumping on the the judge's gag order, which I'm almost certain doesn't even apply to them.

February
07-26-2012, 11:40 PM
I stand corrected. I read the gag orders prior to posting and I didn't see the university listed. Oops, my bad!

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31309937/detail.html

Thanks for the link. the media is not requesting for HIS academic grades but they want to see JH's emails . The school told the judge that the media is requesting his school records so the judge sealed almost everything now ( Please correct me if i am wrong )...

Under the Colorado Open Records Act, his emails would be open to public inspection, since the state-run university is supported by tax dollars. Holmes, who was pursuing a doctoral degree in neuroscience, was also an employee of the university, receiving a $26,000 grant from the National Institutes of Health.

February
07-26-2012, 11:51 PM
I have 2 kids in college so I understand the freedom to express one's self. But based on all previous reports and pictures, I think it is important to understand when he started making changes to his previous life style (hair color, gun/ammo/body armour, etc). I know I want to be able to try to understand what went wrong, when it went wrong and why would he do this.

But sadly, I don't think even with understanding I will be able to truly forgive. He still supposedly opened fire in a movie theatre with innocent people there for a night out in a place they thought were safe.....but not anymore


People will definitely have a hard time forgiving him, he took innocent and beautiful lives :(

jjenny
07-27-2012, 12:38 AM
I don't believe the package arrived before the shooting. In my opinion it's his manifesto.

"In America's overcrowded history of mass murder, nearly every perpetrator has left behind documentation."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-mailed-massacre-plan-colorado-theater-shooting/story?id=16866594#.UBIMoqDwGSp

February
07-27-2012, 03:56 PM
Holmes’s lawyers at the public defender’s office have asked the judge overseeing the case to find out who leaked information to the media about the notebook and its contents, arguing that Holmes’ privacy and constitutional rights have been violated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-was-seeing-psychiatrist-at-university-before-massacre/2012/07/27/gJQAsTwHEX_story.html

Doctor-Patient Confidentiality...Patient Privacy?
Dont think the notebook is school records and it will be under FERPA right?

rollinginit
07-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Thank you, February. I didn't know if we could post the name

I wonder now if when the shooter was making plans, going to see her was part of the bigger plan?

February
07-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Thank you, February. I didn't know if we could post the name

I wonder now if when the shooter was making plans, going to see her was part of the bigger plan?

I just initial it as LF :)

and it is quoted from the media link too :)

It could be.... we dont know yet when he started seeing this doctor. But if she is really treating him then this doctor should come out now and say that he is my patient and he is sick, he needs to be taken to the hospital for more treatment or medicine ...

February
07-27-2012, 04:17 PM
The documents reveal that Holmes was under the psychiatric care of Dr. Lynne Fenton

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-psychiatrist/story?id=16872374#.UBL3ArT2aRk

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 04:20 PM
Thank you, February. I didn't know if we could post the name

I wonder now if when the shooter was making plans, going to see her was part of the bigger plan?

As in being smart enough to send his notebook to the "right" person a little too late for the recipient to stop anything?

matou
07-27-2012, 04:20 PM
The documents reveal that Holmes was under the psychiatric care of Dr. Lynne Fenton

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-psychiatrist/story?id=16872374#.UBL3ArT2aRk

I remember this info slipped out last week but the name of the psychiatrist was not revealed. Was she on vacation?

rollinginit
07-27-2012, 04:24 PM
As in being smart enough to send his notebook to the "right" person a little too late for the recipient to stop anything?

Yep!

It's almost like everything is timed perfectly.

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 04:25 PM
The documents reveal that Holmes was under the psychiatric care of Dr. Lynne Fenton

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-psychiatrist/story?id=16872374#.UBL3ArT2aRk

BBM I'm shocked they're using the word treated!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-psychiatrist/story?id=16872374#.UBL3ArT2aRk

"Colorado shooting suspect James Holmes was being treated by a psychiatrist, according to a legal document filed by his attorneys."

February
07-27-2012, 04:43 PM
Dr LF

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/psychiatry/Faculty/Pages/Fenton,%20Lynn.aspx

Fenton, medical director of the counseling facility, has written numerous papers and launched research in the area of schizophrenia. She did not respond to calls to her home and office.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-was-seeing-psychiatrist-at-university-before-massacre/2012/07/27/gJQAsTwHEX_story.html


FYI - earlier the profile on ucdenver website was public and now you need to login

anyways, whatever is in there was on this link too ...impressive resume with military work...Chief of Physical Medicine, United States Air Force 1990-93

http://www.cusomgateway.com/uploaded-provider-files/2252/Fenton%20-%20Biosketch.pdf

and CNN talking about her
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/27/us/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/index.html

KathrynL
07-27-2012, 05:17 PM
http://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-lynne-fenton-xtj5x

Her specialty is listed as physical medicine and rehabilitation, no mention of psychiatry. Don't know if it is a different doc or if the defense is blowing smoke. imo

KathrynL
07-27-2012, 05:47 PM
Defense motion re: psychiatrist, confidentiality

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/0727/20120727_011819_2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20D11.pdf

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 05:52 PM
Defense motion re: psychiatrist, confidentiality

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/0727/20120727_011819_2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20D11.pdf

Yikes, it says Mr. H. was a psychiatric patient of the doctor.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 05:54 PM
Yikes, it says Mr. H. was a psychiatric patient of the doctor.

Well, the defense sure doesn't seem to worry about his privacy when they release this info.
LOL. Court documents appear to be a great way to release info when there is a gag order in place.

February
07-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Defense motion re: psychiatrist, confidentiality

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/0727/20120727_011819_2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20D11.pdf

People's response :
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

Shhhh dont tell the judge these are all listed in the state court website lol...:truce::truce::moo:

jjenny
07-27-2012, 06:04 PM
People's response :
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

Shhhh dont tell the judge these are all listed in the state court website lol...:truce::truce::moo:

Hah. Told ya all about trusting fox news anonymous sources.
By the way isn't it a great way to release info with a gag order in place?

KathrynL
07-27-2012, 06:09 PM
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31312016/detail.html

But Arapahoe County Senior Deputy District Attorney Richard Orman's written response to the defense motion said inaccuracies in the Fox News reports about the notebook indicate that whoever provided the information didn't know the facts of the case.

Instead of law enforcement sources "leaking" details about the notebook, Orman wrote that the news media may be getting information from "hoaxers, fraudsters," or maybe news reporters fabricated the information by "creating fake 'law enforcement sources' out of whole cloth."

I recall the Aurora police chief stating that someone claiming to be him had made it on the air of a news outlet, and cautioned the media - perhaps the very day of the shooting. I don't think the DA's argument can be easily dismissed.

imo

February
07-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Hah. Told ya all about trusting fox news anonymous sources.
By the way isn't it a great way to release info with a gag order in place?

lol..am sure you and i been using these crime forums for many many years now- i started on that laci peterson case at courttv and there will be good and bad news and wrong news that some media like Foxnews reports :)


it's actually better that we get the right info directly from the court :)

February
07-27-2012, 06:11 PM
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31312016/detail.html

But Arapahoe County Senior Deputy District Attorney Richard Orman's written response to the defense motion said inaccuracies in the Fox News reports about the notebook indicate that whoever provided the information didn't know the facts of the case.

Instead of law enforcement sources "leaking" details about the notebook, Orman wrote that the news media may be getting information from "hoaxers, fraudsters," or maybe news reporters fabricated the information by "creating fake 'law enforcement sources' out of whole cloth."

I recall the Aurora police chief stating that someone claiming to be him had made it on the air of a news outlet, and cautioned the media - perhaps the very day of the shooting. I don't think the DA's argument can be easily dismissed.

imo

i remember that!
it was Sheriff Oates press conference discussing about the media...

KathrynL
07-27-2012, 06:14 PM
People's response :
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

Shhhh dont tell the judge these are all listed in the state court website lol...:truce::truce::moo:

Thanks wasn't enough, that was a good read.

KathrynL
07-27-2012, 06:20 PM
The only problem I have with both of these Motions, is the demanding of evidence now. There is no way in this large a mess that any is ready. I question the defense on that. Unless prosecution is being uncooperative.

As far as the reports being fake, well, guess we get to talk about a lot of fake info until trial. :(

It says in the DA response that they have 20 days after Monday's proceeding to turn over discovery. The guy has yet to be formally charged, so I'm going to go with the defense being aggressive. I agree that the case is going to generate mounds of information. The DA said last Monday that investigation will continue right up until trial.

mysticskye
07-27-2012, 06:25 PM
The psychiatrist specializes in the' neurobiology of schizophrenia"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/us/colorado-suspect-was-getting-psychiatric-care.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

21merc7
07-27-2012, 06:27 PM
Did anyone notice that "the package" has not been examined and is being held for in camera review?

No manifesto, or leaking pipes?

prima.facie
07-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Well, the defense sure doesn't seem to worry about his privacy when they release this info.
LOL. Court documents appear to be a great way to release info when there is a gag order in place.

possibly a preemptive strike?
get people discussing how he was so messed up and in need of help...build a sympathy case...

dunno...just throwing that out there....

jjenny
07-27-2012, 06:50 PM
possibly a preemptive strike?
get people discussing how he was so messed up and in need of help...build a sympathy case...

dunno...just throwing that out there....

People are already discussing this right and left.

newsleuther
07-27-2012, 06:55 PM
That makes it sound like seeing a psychiatrist is a mandatory part of the graduate program. Otherwise, why so many students?

Okay, I'm confused. I saw a report linked here stating that the notebook contained details about how exactly the killer would massacre a bunch of people, with drawings, etc. But the state's response to the motion indicates that they have not yet opened the "box" and were waiting for an "in camera" review, which means in the judge's chambers, with the judge present. Which is it?:

Seems like Fox News had an overzealous "source" that was right about the package being delivered, but wrong about the contents. Someone probably speculated about the contents and was wrong. It could really just end up being a note to his doctor. If that's the case, I'm not sure they can seize it and use as evidence as it's protected by HIIPA, correct?

Curious Me
07-27-2012, 06:56 PM
As one that could be part of the word "people", I have been extremely dubious of the media assertions.

prima.facie
07-27-2012, 06:57 PM
People are already discussing this right and left.

true...but now we have something to chew on....sort of...

jjenny
07-27-2012, 06:57 PM
Seems like Fox News had an overzealous "source" that was right about the package being delivered, but wrong about the contents. Someone probably speculated about the contents and was wrong. It could really just end up being a note to his doctor. If that's the case, I'm not sure they can seize it and use as evidence as it's protected by HIIPA, correct?

I am pretty sure that if they got the warrant HIPAA wouldn't apply.

gitana1
07-27-2012, 07:01 PM
Seems like Fox News had an overzealous "source" that was right about the package being delivered, but wrong about the contents. Someone probably speculated about the contents and was wrong. It could really just end up being a note to his doctor. If that's the case, I'm not sure they can seize it and use as evidence as it's protected by HIIPA, correct?

Well, in criminal cases, there are circumstances in which HIPPA can be bypassed. I will ask my law partner (he does criminal law) for specifics.

prima.facie
07-27-2012, 07:02 PM
in regards to what the defense claims - that JH's right to due process and a fair trial has been jeopardized.....how will this affect the trial now? will the information that has been leaked not be admissible?

can an attorney here speak on this?

jjenny
07-27-2012, 07:09 PM
in regards to what the defense claims - that JH's right to due process and a fair trial has been jeopardized.....how will this affect the trial now? will the information that has been leaked not be admissible?

can an attorney here speak on this?

You should read the people response. Just because defense lawyers say something doesn't make it so.

newsleuther
07-27-2012, 07:10 PM
I am pretty sure that if they got the warrant HIPAA wouldn't apply.

It depends though, perhaps they were not aware that the package was delivered to a doctor that was treating him.

prima.facie
07-27-2012, 07:22 PM
You should read the people response. Just because defense lawyers say something doesn't make it so.

let me clarify.....if it is true, would it still be admissable...id like to hear the opinions of attorneys on this since there are some posting amongst us....

Roxye
07-27-2012, 09:28 PM
Sorry if this was already mentioned, (i missed a few pages) but JH left his position, he was no longer a member of the university. Why should she still be responsible for him?

While I personally don't see that this particular DR. 'saw' JH in the capacity the defense is now 'claiming' for the sake of removing of the journal.

IF JH WAS seeing the DR professionally before his acts, it MIGHT be relevant.

If JH was seeing the DR for medication and counselling before his horrendous act, then him mailing anything to his DOCTOR WOULD be covered under doctor patient confidentiality.

BUT!! The fact is in this journal he threatened the lives of others!... Even after the fact, if a patient threatens others, is it still covered?

Little confused on that aspect.

pinkflamingo
07-27-2012, 09:36 PM
I meant more like, he had dropped out over a month earlier. Obviously had ANYONE received that notebook (and opened it) and did not report it to police, they would be liable. However, I am just imagining that he stopped seeing her in May, which was like 2 months ago. Maybe she did refer him for more help. I really doubt that any professional would just refuse to see or help him if they thought he was capable of doing this. Of course it is a possibility, but there is no evidence that suggests that ANYONE knew that this was his plan.

It will be interesting to see what unfolds...

cynar
07-27-2012, 09:36 PM
"If JH was seeing the DR for medication and counselling before his horrendous act, then him mailing anything to his DOCTOR WOULD be covered under doctor patient confidentiality.

BUT!! The fact is in this journal he threatened the lives of others!... Even after the fact, if a patient threatens others, is it still covered?"

Prosecution response to defense motion asserted that the package had not been opened yet and media reports about its content did not come from law enforcement.

But you raise an interesting point: if the package contains threats, can the defense claim patient confidentiality? And who determines what is a "threat" in this situation, where hindsight colors every communication and makes it see an inevitable precursor?

Liz
07-27-2012, 09:41 PM
I've pulled a few posts about "the package" from the Armchair Psyche thread, to address here.


Did anyone notice that "the package" has not been examined and is being held for in camera review?

No manifesto, or leaking pipes?





<respectfully snipped to thread pertinent part of post>

Okay, I'm confused. I saw a report linked here stating that the notebook contained details about how exactly the killer would massacre a bunch of people, with drawings, etc. But the state's response to the motion indicates that they have not yet opened the "box" and were waiting for an "in camera" review, which means in the judge's chambers, with the judge present. Which is it?:


Seems like Fox News had an overzealous "source" that was right about the package being delivered, but wrong about the contents. Someone probably speculated about the contents and was wrong. It could really just end up being a note to his doctor. If that's the case, I'm not sure they can seize it and use as evidence as it's protected by HIIPA, correct?


I'm not specifically addressing the above posters ... all replies are welcome.

A package was sent to the university, or possibly specifically to one particular professor, by a perp who:

1) after gassing movie theater, shot down 70 people; fatally wounding 12
2) booby-trapped his apartment, secured by trip wire, with multiple explosives which took LE/FBI two days to disassemble
3) had allegedly warned LE upon arrest about said package
4) caused 2 research buildings on campus to be evacuated for 2.5 hours, whilst being searched

Who truly believes that LE would even think of letting said package to go unopened and uninspected (to await opening en camera)? :waitasec:

Because to me, that inaction would define "insanity"! IMOO

SmoothOperator
07-27-2012, 09:43 PM
Bullchit!!! This woman is not gonna take th fall for this individual who thoroughly plotted, planned and slaughtered the innocent!! She is being used.. She is all part of his sick plan!! He made sure his notebook didn't reach her til after he slaughtered the innocent!! His bullchit will never work!!

Bye bye Jimmy!!!

pinkflamingo
07-27-2012, 09:43 PM
IF she was his doctor and treating him, can she just drop them like a hot potato? IMO, she may have referred him to another psychiatrist after he withdrew and PERHAPS that may have been one of his triggers for this attack (??)

:moo:

It's pretty clear he had been planning the attack way before he actually dropped out of the university (the gun and ammunition stockpiling). This was not planned in a month IMO

jjenny
07-27-2012, 09:43 PM
According to the response of prosecution to defense, anonymous sources used by the media were not accurate. So, I certainly don't believe that package arrived ahead of time. I think it makes much more sense for it to arrive on Monday, just like the University said.

Roxye
07-27-2012, 09:46 PM
I personally think it is a slippery slope. The 'what ifs' and 'might of beens' cloud the issue.

Clear cut for most psychologist/psychiatrists is.. if someone threatens others lives or their own live, then they need to report it. Right?

So IF this DR saw him before hand and saw NO sign of violence on anyone, they would have no need to report. Correct?

Then this package comes in, after the fact, before the DR saw it. So there is no liability for the DR.

After the fact, since there is no liability for the DR, why would it still be privileged?

He threatened death to other people.

Maybe I am just reaching.... Ugh!!!!!

jjenny
07-27-2012, 09:47 PM
It was reported LE x-rayed it.

Roxye
07-27-2012, 09:54 PM
I'd like to mention there is a thread devoted to the package delivery. ;)


True, but the package and his psych history have now become intertwined because of the efforts to get the journal removed.

February
07-27-2012, 09:57 PM
i bet FBI will open that package and read it because it might lead to another deaths/terrorism/etc if they dont.

Can you read the notebook contents on xray?

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 09:57 PM
When was the package delivered? Was it in June and not discovered until July?

jjenny
07-27-2012, 09:59 PM
When was the package delivered? Was it in June and not discovered until July?

University says it was delivered on Monday July 23.

February
07-27-2012, 10:01 PM
When was the package delivered? Was it in June and not discovered until July?

we have two dates on the media

July 12 and July 23

University claimed US Postal sent it July 23
Foxnews "source" claimed it was there since July 12

cynar
07-27-2012, 10:01 PM
All I was trying to say is that we don't know whether the package even contained a notebook, let alone one as described to Fox News by the source. Prosecution motion claims package has not yet been opened and news media is making up sources and "facts."

But if the package does contain something that could be construed as a threat, mailed obviously before the crime, and to someone who was treating him (and I think patient-client confidentiality stands even if the treatment was terminated), the defense's assertion that the contents are protected feeds into that opposing mandate that threats must be reported.

February
07-27-2012, 10:03 PM
Guys , do you really believe that this package was NOT even opened and read?

If this is a Manifesto as some claimed, FBI will be the one reading it ASAP to stop any other future crimes. IMO.

He killed lots of people and if he is plotting another bomb and it is on that book or letter, FBI needs to get a hold of it ASAP.

Liz
07-27-2012, 10:03 PM
I found a report that said the package was x-rayed but how do we know we can trust it; since the judge had already signed the gag order by then and there is no specifically named source?

Anyone have a link with a named source?

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:04 PM
I found a report that said the package was x-rayed but how do we know we can trust it; since the judge had already signed the gag order by then and there is no specifically named source?

Anyone have a link with a named source?

I think that one can be trusted, since I can not imagine LE would open any package from JH without making sure it didn't contain a bomb.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:04 PM
we have two dates on the media

July 12 and July 23

University claimed US Postal sent it July 23
Foxnews "source" claimed it was there since July 12

Not send July 23. Delivered on July 23. As for anonymous sources, prosecution made it clear those anonymous source weren't accurate (if they exist at all).

February
07-27-2012, 10:07 PM
Prosecution made it clear those anonymous source weren't accurate (if they exist at all).

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

'people" said lots of media errors but no mention of July 12 being wrong.

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:08 PM
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

'people" said lots of media errors but no mention of July 12 being wrong.

They don't want give out that information. But the source is not accurate on other aspects, why should anyone assume they are accurate on a date?

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Guys , do you really believe that this package was NOT even opened and read?

If this is a Manifesto as some claimed, FBI will be the one reading it ASAP to stop any other future crimes. IMO.

...

Prosecution claims Aurora Police department has it, not FBI.

February
07-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Motion to unseal court file

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20to%20Unseal.pdf

Order to the motion
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%20Order%20Re%20Motion%20to%20Unseal%20(C-4).pdf

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 10:10 PM
Guys , do you really believe that this package was NOT even opened and read?

If this is a Manifesto as some claimed, FBI will be the one reading it ASAP to stop any other future crimes. IMO.

He killed lots of people and if he is plotting another bomb and it is on that book or letter, FBI needs to get a hold of it ASAP.

The media already reported some of what was in the note. I'm confused. Why do you think they haven't opened it yet?

February
07-27-2012, 10:10 PM
They don't want give out that information. But the source is not accurate on other aspects, why should anyone assume they are accurate on a date?

why would we believe there is a notebook inside when it isnt even open per the judge?

~n/t~
07-27-2012, 10:12 PM
I have no doubt it was opened and if there were any further threats, LE would have looked into it.

The only thing we have to worry about now are the copycats. :banghead:

February
07-27-2012, 10:12 PM
wow - look at the list of non party movants - The entire Media..not just Foxnews

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20to%20Unseal.pdf

jjenny
07-27-2012, 10:13 PM
why would we believe there is a notebook inside when it isnt even open per the judge?

If it was x-rayed they would know what's inside of it even without opening.

February
07-27-2012, 10:15 PM
If it was x-rayed they would know what's inside of it even without opening.

not all.

Have you try going to the airport? specially International airports? sometimes they have to physically open your bag to see what's inside

February
07-27-2012, 10:17 PM
Prosecution claims Aurora Police department has it, not FBI.

Things like this FBI always gets involved quietly - they have to identify if this is Terrorism or not and i know you know it.

Reannan
07-27-2012, 10:39 PM
From what I have gathered in the various news reports, JH is the source of information that led LE to look for and ultimately find the package. He TOLD them he had mailed that package. I remember seeing media reports where they actually had a robot get the package because they thought it might be booby trapped. (Think Unabomber...) He had just committed mass murder and injury, he had designed entry to his apartment to be lethal to many more people - NO WAY in HECK would any sane person open an envelope form this guy! :what: What happens with physician/patient confidentiality if the patient ultimately tells LE to go and find the information??? I think psychiatrist have a duty to notify 'identifiable' victims of one of their patients, but I am not sure about what should happen if the victims are nameless???

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177950/James-Holmes-Did-Colorado-gunman-send-bombs-college-Police-investigate-suspicious-packages.html

cynar
07-27-2012, 10:41 PM
Neutral reporting about today's developments

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/28/us-usa-shooting-denver-thirdfuneral-idUSBRE86Q19720120728

cynar
07-27-2012, 10:44 PM
From what I have gathered in the various news reports, JH is the source of information that led LE to look for and ultimately find the package. He TOLD them he had mailed that package.

Today's prosecution motion specifically denies that report, and all but accuses Fox of making it up.

February
07-27-2012, 10:48 PM
Today's prosecution motion specifically denies that report, and all but accuses Fox of making it up.


well the Media including Foxnews are lawyering up and their first request is to unseal court file

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20to%20Unseal.pdf

SmoothOperator
07-27-2012, 10:56 PM
Well let's see here.. This fools availability to the campus had been gone since what?? June.. Was it not June that his on campus status was revoked??.. So obviously she, IF she even "treated" this individual, she hadn't met with him since June..

As I said, she is yet just another victim of this monster's sick game that he continues to play(ie."why am I in jail?").. Shut the eff up, dude!! Your acting skills aren't even enough to make it onto the worst "reality" tv show imaginable!!.. Hope you got better than this for your day in court.. If not.. Well.. Death row awaits you..

Liz
07-27-2012, 11:13 PM
Respectfully, JBean is over cleaning up posts from the armchair psyche thread to bring to this thread. Let's all try to cooperate with the mods, who work so hard, by posting to the most appropriate thread.

newsleuther
07-27-2012, 11:40 PM
Well let's see here.. This fools availability to the campus had been gone since what?? June.. Was it not June that his on campus status was revoked??.. So obviously she, IF she even "treated" this individual, she hadn't met with him since June..

As I said, she is yet just another victim of this monster's sick game that he continues to play(ie."why am I in jail?").. Shut the eff up, dude!! Your acting skills aren't even enough to make it onto the worst "reality" tv show imaginable!!.. Hope you got better than this for your day in court.. If not.. Well.. Death row awaits you..

Can't say that for sure... if she thought he needed treatment, she quite possibly could have continued seeing him off campus. I know school psychs that have done this for expelled students.

Liz
07-27-2012, 11:43 PM
"The anonymous Fox News source that the package was received on July 12 and sat on a loading dock is inaccurate," according to the university press release.

Fox News on Thursday noted that in none of their reporting did they suggest the package had been on the loading dock. "We respect the University's position but are confident that our law enforcement source, who we will not name because of a prior agreement, was in a position to know the timing of the package's whereabouts.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21156393/theater-shooting-feds-say-suspect-may-have-mailed

Fox Executive Editor John Moody went on to say he believed this is part of the evidence that will be presented at trial.

Interesting.

February
07-27-2012, 11:49 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21156393/theater-shooting-feds-say-suspect-may-have-mailed

Fox Executive Editor John Moody went on to say he believed this is part of the evidence that will be presented at trial.

Interesting.

Looks like they are not correcting any errors and standing by to what they reported .

Very Interesting.:moo:

jjenny
07-27-2012, 11:49 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21156393/theater-shooting-feds-say-suspect-may-have-mailed

Fox Executive Editor John Moody went on to say he believed this is part of the evidence that will be presented at trial.

Interesting.

They should keep on talking. Considering motions by the defense, would fox news end up in court and be asked to reveal their anonymous sources?

Reannan
07-28-2012, 12:06 AM
They should keep on talking. Considering motions by the defense, would fox news end up in court and be asked to reveal their anonymous sources?

I don't think they will ever reveal who their annonymous sources were. There are much bigger fish to fry in this case. My Mother used to have a saying.... "The Truth Will Stand When The World Is On Fire". She was/is right - I feel confident there was an envelope, and it was NOT delivered to the end source before the murders in the theatre. Was it mailed late? Was it lost in the shuffle of a large University mail room?? Would it have mattered if it had been delivered on time? THAT is the question - and we do not have those answers. If the envelope had been delivered, what would have happened??? We can't answer that because we do not know what was really in it. Stick drawings of a person shooting other people is not illegal. Words that say "I am going to shoot a LOT of people" IS illegal... you just can't make those kind of threats. If I say this however.... "I fantasize about shooting a lot of people" - that is NOT illegal. Round and round we go... I get dizzy.

broomboys
07-28-2012, 02:35 AM
I'd be interested to know more about Dr Fenton:

From New York Times:
In September 2004, Dr. Fenton received an admonition from Colorado’s board of medical examiners for prescribing medications — including the allergy medication Claritin, the sleeping pill Ambien, two tranquilizers and the narcotic painkiller Vicodin — for a few colleagues and her husband on several occasions, and failing to keep proper documentation of the prescriptions...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/us/colorado-suspect-was-getting-psychiatric-care.html

Did she prescribe JH drugs? What else is in the doctor's past that could be constrained as evidence....because....and I'm calling this one early....she's going to be in the dock accused of mis-treating him....if that's the correct legal term.

HastingsChi
07-28-2012, 03:02 AM
They should keep on talking. Considering motions by the defense, would fox news end up in court and be asked to reveal their anonymous sources?

Absolutely not. Colorado has a strong journalist shield law which does not allow a Court to force a journalist to reveal anonymous sources whereas in other States without such laws journalists can and have been held in contempt and jailed for not revealing sources.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

DeadCat
07-28-2012, 03:46 AM
Well let's see here.. This fools availability to the campus had been gone since what?? June.. Was it not June that his on campus status was revoked??..

A lot was happening due to that failed exam. He would have to vacate his apartment in 30 days and his health care (student based?) would end. Even if he could see the counselor off campus, he might not want to, as he may have to pay out of pocket. Maybe sending the package was a way to try to continue his contact with the counselor.

21merc7
07-28-2012, 04:57 AM
Trying to get caught up, but saw a question about Hippa and attorneys getting defendant's records.

Prosecution and defense will receive any and all records of defendant for his entire life. (If they find out everywhere he has ever been treated.) Hippa is overruled by Court in a criminal matter.

In fact, any and all confidentiality rules no longer apply. An example would be, the attorneys could get copies of every time you applied to receive food stamps, if necessary.

rollinginit
07-28-2012, 05:37 AM
Why wouldn't the LE open the package?? Wouldn't they want to check for unknown powders or something like that? They probably x-rayed the package first for bombs, then opened to check for powders or other dangerous substances that wouldn't show up on x-rays.

I doubt they would just xray it and seal the package up. What would happen if it had a something like "anthrax" or something else. Yeah, don't think so. I think they checked and double checked that package before sealing it up. That's why I think it was leaked that it was a notebook. The LE "probably" looked through each page to check that their was nothing dangerous hiding there.

21merc7
07-28-2012, 05:39 AM
Why wouldn't the LE open the package?? Wouldn't they want to check for unknown powders or something like that? They probably x-rayed the package first for bombs, then opened to check for powders or other dangerous substances that wouldn't show up on x-rays.

Yeah, someone had to open it. How else would they check for bio hazard?

I'm wondering if the phrasing in the Motion is just semantics. Ie...it hasn't been "examined" for fingerprints yet, or handwriting analysis yet, and so on. (Which also means, it has to be opened.)

Could also mean it has not been officially entered into evidence yet (therefore not falling under Discovery) as it has not been determined if it is from defendant or loony hoaxter. The package could be completely unrelated to the case. (Although there were reports that defendant said it would be there, that does not mean this is said package, if defendant did in fact make that statement. That's the way it goes.)

rollinginit
07-28-2012, 05:47 AM
Yeah, someone had to open it. How else would they check for bio hazard?

I'm wondering if the phrasing in the Motion is just semantics. Ie...it hasn't been "examined" for fingerprints yet, or handwriting analysis yet, and so on. (Which also means, it has to be opened.)

Exactly! Can you just imagine for a moment that they ONLY x-rayed the package????? Okay, then they sealed it up. However long it takes, somebody like a judge or lawyer opens it one day and it has some bio-hazard in it. Some powder taped to a page. I just don't see it at all. That's why I think the package was fully examined by somebody. Probably some fingerprints taken and handwritting samples, like you said.

I usually don't trust the media much. I do believe fox (this time) though. Whoever leaked to fox is going to get caught pretty quick, IMO. I bet when they opened the package, there were only a few LE officals around.

Liz
07-28-2012, 06:16 AM
Absolutely not. Colorado has a strong journalist shield law which does not allow a Court to force a journalist to reveal anonymous sources whereas in other States without such laws journalists can and have been held in contempt and jailed for not revealing sources.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2


Thank you for clearing that up so quickly, Hastings!

~n/t~
07-28-2012, 07:55 AM
In a preview of likely battles to come, the defence lawyers also argued that the contents of the package should not be used as evidence because communications between Holmes and his psychiatrist, Lynne Fenton, were "protected".

The filing said Holmes was Ms Fenton's psychiatric patient.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-28/james-holmes-was-seeing-doctor-over-mental-health/4161278

Any thoughts as to why the defence would not want the contents of the package be used as evidence? IF the media reports are true and the note contained details of the attack using stick figures wouldn't that help their client towards perhaps a mental illness defence? OR would it add to the already premeditated evidence against him which would perhaps destroy any chance that he would be deemed incompetent to stand trial?

I think I answered my own question. lol

jjenny
07-28-2012, 10:43 AM
Absolutely not. Colorado has a strong journalist shield law which does not allow a Court to force a journalist to reveal anonymous sources whereas in other States without such laws journalists can and have been held in contempt and jailed for not revealing sources.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

Then what exactly was defense asking for in their motion? Defense wants a hearing to obtain "appropriate sanctions for misconduct" I presume toward the supposed law enforcement sources (if they exist).

~n/t~
07-28-2012, 10:51 AM
I believe the motion was against the State and not the sources but I'll have to reread it.

~n/t~
07-28-2012, 10:54 AM
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/0727/20120727_011819_2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20D11.pdf

jjenny
07-28-2012, 11:10 AM
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/0727/20120727_011819_2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20Motion%20D11.pdf

Defense wanted identities of all people that could possibly be the source.
Prosecution then responded that these supposed sources are very inaccurate.

~n/t~
07-28-2012, 11:23 AM
Defense wanted identities of all people that could possibly be the source.
Prosecution then responded that these supposed sources are very inaccurate.

No the defence is accusing the State of leaking to the sources, imo

jjenny
07-28-2012, 11:32 AM
No the defence is accusing the State of leaking to the sources, imo

What? Defense is accusing the state of leaking to the media.
And wants to know the identities of all the persons who could possibly be those who leaked.

HastingsChi
07-28-2012, 12:13 PM
Then what exactly was defense asking for in their motion? Defense wants a hearing to obtain "appropriate sanctions for misconduct" I presume toward the supposed law enforcement sources (if they exist).

In all likelihood the defense team feels the prosecution or law enforcement leaked this information and the judge can investigate if the leaks came from either of those entities but cannot force a journalist to reveal their source.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

jjenny
07-28-2012, 12:15 PM
In all likelihood the defense team feels the prosecution or law enforcement leaked this information and the judge can investigate if the leaks came from either of those entities but cannot force a journalist to reveal their source.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

But unless somebody admits to leaking, how could the judge possibly investigate? Anyhow, prosecution says that there was a lot of incorrect information published, suggesting that the press might have even made some of it up.

HastingsChi
07-28-2012, 12:28 PM
But unless somebody admits to leaking, how could the judge possibly investigate? Anyhow, prosecution says that there was a lot of incorrect information published, suggesting that the press might have even made some of it up.

These things are not uncommon and with LE and prosecutors smartphones, computers and office phones all being owned by the State, so is all the information contained in those things. In these situations a Court investigator would examine the digital trail of all those who could be the source of violating a judge's order.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

~n/t~
07-28-2012, 01:18 PM
You know I thought about what was leaked and as far as I know it was mention of stick figures carrying out the crime. No detailed description, not how many stick figures, etc. We don't even know if there were weapons depicted in the drawing or if the movie theatre was even part of the plans.

I seriously doubt FOX would make up such a thing . Heck if you have to make something up why not go for the big picture but they didn't. So it is my belief that someone leaked the information and the details were quite vague.

:moo:

Tucarra
07-28-2012, 02:24 PM
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing........but I have several letters in my box at home that haven't been opened yet.

My hubby even has a huge box outside in the garage that was delivered from fed-ex about 3 weeks ago. It's un opened. We think/hope it's all the light bulbs we ordered.

Just saying....maybe there is no big rush on the teachers part to open mail, especially if it's unknown mail. Don't professors also receive a lot of junk stuff and other journals from other sources?

Concur with this. Many mail rooms operate differently. A long time ago it was common for daily distributions to people's offices, but for cost reasons and the onset of electronic communication, many mail rooms slowed or stopped distributions. My personal experience in business is that paper mail was, as stated above, mostly "junk mail"..

jjenny
07-28-2012, 02:57 PM
You know I thought about what was leaked and as far as I know it was mention of stick figures carrying out the crime. No detailed description, not how many stick figures, etc. We don't even know if there were weapons depicted in the drawing or if the movie theatre was even part of the plans.

I seriously doubt FOX would make up such a thing . Heck if you have to make something up why not go for the big picture but they didn't. So it is my belief that someone leaked the information and the details were quite vague.

:moo:

University said that source was inaccurate and package arrived on Monday. Prosecutions also described things published by the media (including fox news) as inaccurate. So I am not sure why I should believe that there was anything correct in what we were told by the media about this package.

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 03:10 PM
I question the belief that the package is sitting in evidence, unopened. Esp in light of the prosecution's response ( , pp 1-2, item 3, emphasis added, mine ) to the "improper discovery motion" made by the defense ( link (]link[/url) ) :


3. The Defendant argues in Motion D-11 that "the content of these materials was leaked by the government to the media. . ." Certainly the media, including Fox News and NBCNEWS.com have said this, but that does not make it so. In fact, the content of the news stories would seem to indicate that whoever provided information to Fox News, if anyone, did not actually have knowledge of the facts of this case. For instance, the Fox News story stated that the FBI took possession of the package and its contents--this is incorrect, as it was the Aurora Police Department. The NBCNEWS.com story indicated that the Aurora Police Department had obtained two search warrants, one for the package itself and a second one for its contents. This is not correct, as the Aurora Police Department obtained only one search warrant. Other stories have stated that the police are currently examining the contents of the box—again untrue, as [U]the contents were secured and not examined, and held for potential in camera review. These factual errors lead the People to believe that there may not even be a "law enforcement source" "leaking" confidential information and that the media is getting information from hoaxers, fraudsters, or maybe from nobody at all by creating fake "law enforcement sources" out of whole cloth. To put it bluntly, the People are extremely dubious of the media assertions that "law enforcement sources" exist. The court need not, and should not, accept that the media is correctly identifying the affiliations of the persons they claim are providing them with "information."

jjenny
07-28-2012, 03:30 PM
Prosecution doesn't claim they didn't open the package.

21merc7
07-28-2012, 03:50 PM
Prosecution doesn't claim they didn't open the package.

Yeah, I think they are just saying "the evidence is not ready yet". I have no idea how they will get through all the evidence, witnesses, victim families, respective experts, etc... in a year. They would need a full team of lawyers for both sides, and more forensic labs than are available, more support staff than the White House!

HastingsChi
07-28-2012, 04:15 PM
Yeah, I think they are just saying "the evidence is not ready yet". I have no idea how they will get through all the evidence, witnesses, victim families, respective experts, etc... in a year. They would need a full team of lawyers for both sides, and more forensic labs than are available, more support staff than the White House!

in the discovery process, there are guidelines that govern the who, what, when regarding the sharing of evidence. Frankly at this point with formal charges not yet filed, the defence is months away from getting to see the package and a ton of other State's evidence.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

February
07-28-2012, 04:49 PM
I question the belief that the package is sitting in evidence, unopened. Esp in light of the prosecution's response ( , pp 1-2, item 3, emphasis added, mine ) to the "improper discovery motion" made by the defense ( link (]link[/url) ) :


3. The Defendant argues in Motion D-11 that "the content of these materials was leaked by the government to the media. . ." Certainly the media, including Fox News and NBCNEWS.com have said this, but that does not make it so. In fact, the content of the news stories would seem to indicate that whoever provided information to Fox News, if anyone, did not actually have knowledge of the facts of this case. For instance, the Fox News story stated that the FBI took possession of the package and its contents--this is incorrect, as it was the Aurora Police Department. The NBCNEWS.com story indicated that the Aurora Police Department had obtained two search warrants, one for the package itself and a second one for its contents. This is not correct, as the Aurora Police Department obtained only one search warrant. Other stories have stated that the police are currently examining the contents of the box—again untrue, as [U]the contents were secured and not examined, and held for potential in camera review. These factual errors lead the People to believe that there may not even be a "law enforcement source" "leaking" confidential information and that the media is getting information from hoaxers, fraudsters, or maybe from nobody at all by creating fake "law enforcement sources" out of whole cloth. To put it bluntly, the People are extremely dubious of the media assertions that "law enforcement sources" exist. The court need not, and should not, accept that the media is correctly identifying the affiliations of the persons they claim are providing them with "information."


Hi Shadow

do you personally believe that the package are not opened and read if that is a notebook?

jjenny
07-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Hi Shadow

do you personally believe that the package are not opened and read if that is a notebook?

They didn't say the package was never opened. But they say they are not examining its contents until in camera review.

February
07-28-2012, 08:56 PM
They didn't say the package was never opened. But they say they are not examining its contents until in camera review.

isnt that it only pass by the XRAY?

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 09:20 PM
Hi Shadow

do you personally believe that the package are not opened and read if that is a notebook?
There is no doubt in my mind that they opened the package and that an attending officer not only saw the notebook but caught a glimpse of its contents, then leaked that bit to the media. Could I be wrong? Sure. However, this would not be the first time someone close to the investigation of a high profile crime leaked stuff to the media.

February
07-28-2012, 09:23 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that they opened the package and that an attending officer not only saw the notebook but caught a glimpse of its contents, then leaked that bit to the media. Could I be wrong? Sure. However, this would not be the first time someone close to the investigation of a high profile crime leaked stuff to the media.

Thanks for replying to me, at least i am not alone of thinking that :)

DeadCat
07-28-2012, 09:36 PM
What if the contents described other "terror cells" or another accomplice? Surely anything from JH should be inspected carefully and right away, for the public's protection. This doesn't make sense.

February
07-28-2012, 09:40 PM
What if the contents described other "terror cells" or another accomplice? Surely anything from JH should be inspected carefully and right away, for the public's protection. This doesn't make sense.

when somebody mass murdered americans in america , somebody has to report to higher people about it and they will be given full security clearance to check on it regardless of what local police will say.

Roxye
07-28-2012, 09:51 PM
What if the contents described other "terror cells" or another accomplice? Surely anything from JH should be inspected carefully and right away, for the public's protection. This doesn't make sense.

IMO JH was NOT part of a 'terror cell'. He acted alone. There is no reason, at this point, to believe he didn't act alone. While he might not of been the loner some have described, he surely isn't a follower. Nothing about this man's psyche describes someone who would "follow" someone else into a plan to "terrorize" anyone... Except his specific plan he concocted by HIMSELF!

JMO

DeadCat
07-28-2012, 09:58 PM
IMO JH was NOT part of a 'terror cell'. He acted alone. There is no reason, at this point, to believe he didn't act alone. While he might not of been the loner some have described, he surely isn't a follower. Nothing about this man's psyche describes someone who would "follow" someone else into a plan to "terrorize" anyone... Except his specific plan he concocted by HIMSELF!

JMO

Roxye, I agree with you. He probably wasn't part of a cell and probably acted alone (I think time will tell), but we only "know" this (or rather police only "know") because of looking at all the evidence. I was just saying "what if" to explain why I think some level of LE (local police or FBI) would need to examine that package. Finding a package from JH and not examining it because it's waiting for the judge to see it? (is that what "in camera review" means??) Maybe they should have waited to go in the apt until the jurors could go too...? (Ok, now I'm just getting snarky)

songline
07-28-2012, 10:20 PM
Moo but the University has about zero choice of whether they want to be honest.. The fact is this is not a detail or details that they can lie about, twist the truth, or deceive and just sweep under the rug and keep out of the publics knowledge.. They do not have that choice wrt anything remotely related to this case.. Obviously that includes any/all details regarding the packages and notebook the shooter sent to the University..

Moo is its just another nail in the coffin of this shooter who is sorely mistaken if he's under the guise of somehow getting away with this(ie. his attempts at an insanity defense).. Because his little special delivery only further cements the amount of premeditation and planning that went into his murdering/injuring 70+ innocent human beings!!

Bye-bye Jimmy! And not bye-bye birdie to the loony bin!.. But much different bye-bye Jimmy to the Big House with the Big Boys that will eagerly be awaiting your p**** ass and welcome you with OPEN ARMS!!

About the Pkg. if it was signed for your Do have proof of delivery. But we do not know that it was so…
IF the STAMP on the package is correct July 12 ? gives the post office a few days to deliver. IF the shooting happened on the 20th ? that is 8 days.
I would bet it was in the school a few days... but maybe the person addressed to was away.
I don’t think we really know that yet.

You are just real mad at him, and I can’t say that I blame you one tinny bit.
But it may be hard to proove when the package was recieved. unless there is a good paper trail. AND so what if you get a date, I do not think they can have any responsibility.
I do think that MI people cover that up real well...(unntill they spirall) They dont need to act.

songline
07-28-2012, 10:22 PM
Moo but the University has about zero choice of whether they want to be honest.. The fact is this is not a detail or details that they can lie about, twist the truth, or deceive and just sweep under the rug and keep out of the publics knowledge.. They do not have that choice wrt anything remotely related to this case.. Obviously that includes any/all details regarding the packages and notebook the shooter sent to the University..

Moo is its just another nail in the coffin of this shooter who is sorely mistaken if he's under the guise of somehow getting away with this(ie. his attempts at an insanity defense).. Because his little special delivery only further cements the amount of premeditation and planning that went into his murdering/injuring 70+ innocent human beings!!

Bye-bye Jimmy! And not bye-bye birdie to the loony bin!.. But much different bye-bye Jimmy to the Big House with the Big Boys that will eagerly be awaiting your p**** ass and welcome you with OPEN ARMS!!

About the Pkg. if it was signed for your Do have proof of delivery. But we do not know that it was so…
IF the STAMP on the package is correct July 12 ? gives the post office a few days to deliver. IF the shooting happened on the 20th ? that is 8 days.
I would bet it was in the school a few days... but maybe the person addressed to was away.
I don’t think we really know that yet.

You are just real mad at him, and I can’t say that I blame you one tinny bit.
But it may be hard to proove when the package was recieved. unless there is a good paper trail. AND so what if you get a date, I do not think they can have any responsibility.
I do think that MI people cover that up real well...(unntill they spirall) They dont need to act MI, they fight to act normal for a while. till.......

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 10:35 PM
Info on their MH program ( link (http://www.universityparent.com/sites/default/files/2010-colorado-denver-anschutz-final.pdf), p17 )


Mental Health
A student’s health and well being is a primary concern for all student affairs offices, as well as other offices which regularly interact with students.

If a student has been seeing a professional for counseling, or psychiatric care, it is important to find another provider right away so the student can continue to receive care. This can be done several ways:


• Students can ask their current provider for names of local providers – the student should then follow up and find out if the provider accepts the students’ selected medical insurance coverage.

• Students may make an appointment with Lynne Fenton, MD, who is employed at the Anschutz Medical Campus in the Student Mental Health and Wellness Center – she can assist in finding providers for students regardless of their selected insurance coverage (AMC Student Health Insurance or other coverage) (XXX) XXX-XXXX

• Students may visit the Student Health Insurance office (XXXX of Ed II North) for assistance in finding providers who accept the AMC Student Health Insurance plan.

Students who have selected other carriers will be assisted by referencing their carrier websites which often have ‘find a physician’ search engines

jjenny
07-28-2012, 11:08 PM
July 12 allegation came from fox news anonymous source. University denied it. Prosecution says that media sources aren't accurate and perhaps even made up. I am not sure why anyone should believe the anonymous source. As for signature, if it was send usps, there is not going to be a signature requirement.

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 11:09 PM
CU School of Medicine
Anschutz Medical Campus
2011 Facts and Figures ( link (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/administration/Documents/Facts%20and%20Figures-2011.pdf), p39 )


The AMC Student Mental Health Service, under the direction of Lynne Fenton, MD, Medical Director, is staffed by University of Colorado clinicians (Brian Rothberg, MD and Janice Shire, RN, CNS), a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (Margaret Roath, MSW), and psychiatry residents. The service provides comprehensive, confidential mental health services for AMC students. Most students receive combined treatment of psychotherapy and medications from a single provider. In 2010, the service completed 169 new evaluations and provided ongoing care to over 200 students. Fenton supervises senior psychiatric residents working with students. She is also a member of the UCD/AMC campus-wide Behavioral Environmental Threat Assessment (BETA) team, which manages and coordinates evaluation and response to students of concern.

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 11:21 PM
What is BETA? ( link (http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Pages/default.aspx) )


The Behavioral Assessment and Threat Assessment Team (BETA) is a new resource at the University of Colorado Denver that can provide resources and information to faculty, staff or student community members who are confronted with individuals who may be threatening, disruptive, or otherwise problematic. The Team provides guidance and consultation and may make referrals to appropriate campus or community resources. BETA is one component of the newly formed University Emergency Management Operations Group (EMOG).

The Team consists of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Office of Student Life, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Life, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.

The BETA is not an administrative, treatment, or disciplinary body. The Team’s purpose is to provide support, information and referrals to those dealing with threatening or disruptive situations.

The BETA acts as a resource and contact for campus faculty, staff and administrators who are dealing with a disruptive or threatening individual. Members listen to their concerns and offer information and resources to help in addressing the problem.

shadowraiths
07-28-2012, 11:23 PM
Fenton's profle ( link (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/psychiatry/Faculty/Pages/Fenton,%20Lynne.aspx) )

Someone needs to run spell check...

February
07-29-2012, 01:14 AM
Student Privacy/FERPA/HIPAA at University of Colorado and their definition of Education Records and etc...


http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/students/policies/Pages/StudentPrivacy.aspx

jjenny
07-29-2012, 01:15 AM
Here is an excellent article on what would be expected of a graduate student such as JH. Since so many people have questions about it. The fact that he was accepted into one of the best programs in the country really suggests to me that he was on top of his game when they accepted him.

"The transition from the student to the researcher is the whole goal," said Diego Restrepo, co-director of the neuroscience center. "The student has to demonstrate the independence, the curiosity, the creativity to ask questions that can be translated into an experiment that will produce data that will give you an answer to your question."

http://www.dailycamera.com/state-west-news/ci_21183401/colorado-theater-shooting-suspects-studies-were-rarefied-rigorous

February
07-29-2012, 02:21 AM
I have a general question
if a person is mentally sick and committed a crime , will that person undergo any psychological or mental evaluation right away while in prison?

another question,
so if JH got a prescription of Vicodin, then he is allowed to take it still when they took him?

Inmate Medications at Arapahoe County Jail:
http://prisonhandbook.com/1103/arapahoe-county-jail/
If you are on any type of prescription medication, you will be allowed to continue taking it while in jail. When you are first processed, you will be asked what medication you take. You will then be referred to the jail nurse or doctor who will be in charge of monitoring your health and prescribing your medication.

Liz
07-29-2012, 02:25 AM
I personally think it is a slippery slope. The 'what ifs' and 'might of beens' cloud the issue.

Clear cut for most psychologist/psychiatrists is.. if someone threatens others lives or their own live, then they need to report it. Right?

So IF this DR saw him before hand and saw NO sign of violence on anyone, they would have no need to report. Correct?

Then this package comes in, after the fact, before the DR saw it. So there is no liability for the DR.

After the fact, since there is no liability for the DR, why would it still be privileged?

He threatened death to other people.

Maybe I am just reaching.... Ugh!!!!!


I can feel your frustration. When we don't have known facts to go on, I think sometimes we 'reach'. It's probably normal to do so. At least I hope it is. :waitasec:

Liz
07-29-2012, 03:00 AM
Well let's see here.. This fools availability to the campus had been gone since what?? June.. Was it not June that his on campus status was revoked??.. So obviously she, IF she even "treated" this individual, she hadn't met with him since June..

~respectfully snipped ~


Do we know for a fact that his campus status was revoked? Not sure I know what you mean.

If Dr Fenton was treating JH, I cannot imagine any psychiatrist dropping a patient cold turkey, so to speak. At least not before the patient had a chance to obtain another treating doctor. Of course, we don't know if JH would've even wanted any further treatment, since he was kinda busy making his evil preparations.

I've been thinking about the possibility that JH's access to the Research Center would've most likely been revoked - as in he might've been (and should've been) required to turn in his key card that he used to access the building?

I'd been wondering if that might've been the ulterior motive of that neuroscience administrator going with (or joining up with, depending on which report you read) JH's classmates for drinks after tests were done. So as to non-challantly mention that JH had sent an email of resignation - so the group would all be aware that JH should not be entering the building, in the event he should attempt gaining admission when one of them were entering. (Which further led me to wonder if the admin might've had a feeling that JH may have some malicious intent of doing so.)

The above is hypothetical only. Haven't read or heard this to be the case whatsoever. Just my thinking out loud and all that.

Liz
07-29-2012, 03:10 AM
~respectfully snipped~

As for signature, if it was send usps, there is not going to be a signature requirement.

How do you know this?

I believe there are several options available for requiring a signature upon delivery by USPS.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 03:14 AM
How do you know this?

I believe there are several options available for requiring a signature upon delivery by USPS.

Fine. I should have said most likely there would be no signature requirement if the package was send by USPS. I don't recall ever having to sign for anything delivered by USPS.

Liz
07-29-2012, 04:36 AM
Snippet from Article dated July 28th (http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-theater-shooting-james-holmes-attorneys-fight-prosecutors/story?id=16878933):

Colorado prosecutors are fighting shooting suspect James Holmes' attorneys over a package the alleged mass murderer sent to the school psychiatrist he was seeing.

Some interesting videos there, also.

February
07-29-2012, 04:43 AM
Fenton is also listed as a member of the faculty at the medical school's Schizophrenia Research Center and has received grants to study the effects of various drugs on schizophrenics.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-colorado-shooting-20120728,0,5891418.story

21merc7
07-29-2012, 05:29 AM
I have a general question
if a person is mentally sick and committed a crime , will that person undergo any psychological or mental evaluation right away while in prison?

another question,
so if JH got a prescription of Vicodin, then he is allowed to take it still when they took him?

Inmate Medications at Arapahoe County Jail:
http://prisonhandbook.com/1103/arapahoe-county-jail/
If you are on any type of prescription medication, you will be allowed to continue taking it while in jail. When you are first processed, you will be asked what medication you take. You will then be referred to the jail nurse or doctor who will be in charge of monitoring your health and prescribing your medication.


He will have no choice but see Forensic Psychologists, for both sides, State and Prosecution. He murdered and injured a lot of people, he will see the psychologists. Cooperate with them-who knows. *Side note, if it is true he was asking why am I in here (which I am putting under gossip at the moment), it could be he has no understanding of jail systems, and simply does not know why he is in solitary confinement rather than gen pop where he could brag. He probably has no idea that in gen pop the odds of inmates harming him are high, especially since a child is gone, and who knows what inmate had relatives at the show.

When he was first arrested, he would be given no medication. Toxicology would have to be done. Any medication given could interfere with anything a person may have already taken. Usually there is a 72 hour watch period, given we don't know if he needs something like insulin.

The link you quoted is for those turning themselves in, or knowing they are getting jail time, and they need say - insulin, blood pressure meds or take any meds to keep from flipping out on a daily basis already.

~n/t~
07-29-2012, 08:02 AM
Will the armchair psych profile thread be reopened at some point? I don't know where to post some of the articles.


History tells us that over 90 per cent of such killers are male and reasonably intelligent - which fits James Holmes to a T.

But after that there are some serious inconsistencies with the "normal" profile of a mass murderer. Much of what we have learnt about him so far just doesn't seem to add up.

For a start, most mass killers tend to do poorly in school, have trouble holding down jobs and often work in unskilled jobs, none of which apply to James Holmes.

None of the reports to date suggest he came from a markedly dysfunctional family. He was not, as far as we know, abandoned by his father and raised by a domineering mother.

His family don't seem to have any evidence of criminal, psychiatric or alcoholic histories.

Furthermore, to date, there is no suggestion that James was subjected to either psychological, physical or sexual abuse.


more at the link

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/how-did-james-holmes-a-smart-guy-from-a-good-home-become-a-mass-murder-suspect/story-fndo3ewo-1226437079362

rollinginit
07-29-2012, 08:24 AM
I found this


A law enforcement official who spoke only on the condition of anonymity did confirm to The Denver Post that a package containing a notebook was sent by Holmes to the university. That official did not know the contents.

BBM. So that shows that it wasn't just fox that confirmed or had a source with LE about a notebook. Denver Post also confirmed or had a source.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_21156393?source=pop_section_news

rollinginit
07-29-2012, 08:27 AM
Also, from the same link above....

In addition to Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, CBS News, NBC and CNN reported law enforcement sources had confirmed that the notebook contained drawings about a massacre and was sent to a CU psychiatrist

~n/t~
07-29-2012, 08:30 AM
IIRC, there were 2 packages received at the school. One was reported as not from JH but they investigated it anyway. Were both packages received on the same day?

rollinginit
07-29-2012, 08:54 AM
At this link, some more information on the doctor. It also shows her picture.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/details-emerge-on-psychiatrist-accused-colorado-massacre-gunman/


The source told FoxNews.com the package was mailed well before the attack took place, but had not been delivered to its intended recipient. The school issued a statement Wednesday evening confirming that a suspicious package was found, but said it was delivered Monday and found on the same day.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/details-emerge-on-psychiatrist-accused-colorado-massacre-gunman/#ixzz2212CcZcG

rollinginit
07-29-2012, 09:08 AM
Here's some more information on the doctor.
http://www.mirecc.va.gov/visn19/research/archived_research.asp

The Dept of Vetrans Affairs. Check out the name listed.


Suicide PreventionPI: Robert Freedman, Research DirectorVA Therapeutic Development Team: Robert Freedman MD, Sherry Leonard PhD, Karen E. Stevens PhD, Laura Martin PhD, Jason Tregellas PhD, Josette Harris PhD, and Lynn Fenton, MDDescription: There are two problems in the prevention of suicide: (1) detection of individuals who are at risk, and (2) treatment to prevent suicides. Most of the major risk factors for suicide in young people, the focus of the VISN19 MIRECC's mission, are known: male sex, exposure to firearms, history of violence, mental illness, cigarette smoking, and other substance abuse. Work by VISN19 MIRECC investigators found that traumatic brain injury and chronic pain are two additional risk factors. Note that many of the risk factors-exposure to firearms and violence, for example-are common problems of combat Veterans that we cannot reverse.Keywords: Suicide, Clozapine, SerotoninLocation: Denver

BBM

songline
07-29-2012, 09:08 AM
Fine. I should have said most likely there would be no signature requirement if the package was send by USPS. I don't recall ever having to sign for anything delivered by USPS.

Exactly... so it may be hard to prove when the mail actualy did get there before or after the shooting.

songline
07-29-2012, 09:14 AM
I have said this many times in different ways.

MI people are often bright and can be high functioning for a long time. There is no way a Dr. would have seen him as a danger unless he was a threat to himself or someone else.
MI people reach a point where they begin to unravel, if it is caught in time they can be medicated properly.
If it is not they may self medicate.

IMHO the doctors did not see it because MI people know something is wrong and they do hide it because they feel they are "Different". They hide better than anyone can, up to a point.

I hate to see the doctors get heat for this. Unless there will be proof that they needed to raise a red flag.
It can take years to actually get a diagnosis for some.

songline
07-29-2012, 09:18 AM
July 12 allegation came from fox news anonymous source. University denied it. Prosecution says that media sources aren't accurate and perhaps even made up. I am not sure why anyone should believe the anonymous source. As for signature, if it was send usps, there is not going to be a signature requirement.


POST stamp will be accurate.
so if it is stamped the 12th and the shooting occurred on the 20th
And if the university claims that the package did not arrive till the 23rd,.
It did NOT take 11 days for the package to arrive.

It will all shake out soon.

rollinginit
07-29-2012, 09:18 AM
I have said this many times in different ways.

MI people are often bright and can be high functioning for a long time. There is no way a Dr. would have seen him as a danger unless he was a threat to himself or someone else.
MI people reach a point where they begin to unravel, if it is caught in time they can be medicated properly.
If it is not they may self medicate.

IMHO the doctors did not see it because MI people know something is wrong and they do hide it because they feel they are "Different". They hide better than anyone can, up to a point.

I hate to see the doctors get heat for this. Unless there will be proof that they needed to raise a red flag.
It can take years to actually get a diagnosis for some.

I do agree with you all the way. I just think at this point, her whole career is going to be in question..atleast until more information comes out.

I posted the links but if the mods would rather...I can delete them (or they can) until more information comes out??????

~n/t~
07-29-2012, 09:23 AM
Exactly... so it may be hard to prove when the mail actualy did get there before or after the shooting.

I wonder if they have a time stamp system in place at the University's mail room?

The company I work for does. Every envelope/package delivered by mail is stamped with date it was received.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 09:58 AM
POST stamp will be accurate.
so if it is stamped the 12th and the shooting occurred on the 20th
And if the university claims that the package did not arrive till the 23rd,.
It did NOT take 11 days for the package to arrive.

It will all shake out soon.

I don't know that there is anything even remotely accurate about July 12 date. Or that there was anything on the package ever marked with July 12.

songline
07-29-2012, 10:00 AM
I wonder if they have a time stamp system in place at the University's mail room?

The company I work for does. Every envelope/package delivered by mail is stamped with date it was received.


EVEN if they do not have one - IF that package has a postage stamp of July 12th and the school claims it got there on the 23rd.
We all know it does not take 11 days for any mail in the same state.
You can send something overseas in that amount of time.

So then the next question would be was the package not opened because the recipient was on vacation, day off or just lazy.
the last one (just lazy) can present a problem.

songline
07-29-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't know that there is anything even remotely accurate about July 12 date. Or that there was anything on the package ever marked with July 12.


BBM: EVERY PACKAGE has a postage stamp. IF it was sent through the postal service. So there was a mark for sure.

If he hand delivered it, then NOT.
We have been reading that it was sent through the postal service.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 10:17 AM
BBM: EVERY PACKAGE has a postage stamp. IF it was sent through the postal service. So there was a mark for sure.

If he hand delivered it, then NOT.
We have been reading that it was sent through the postal service.

But we don't know what that mark is.

QueenD
07-29-2012, 11:10 AM
BBM: EVERY PACKAGE has a postage stamp. IF it was sent through the postal service. So there was a mark for sure.

If he hand delivered it, then NOT.
We have been reading that it was sent through the postal service.

Also if he purchased the metered stamp it tells everything, where the stamp was bought, what time, and day. It will even tell who sold it to him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

songline
07-29-2012, 11:15 AM
But we don't know what that mark is.

REPORTED as the 12th, it will all shake out soon enough
We cant prove it IS, or that it is NOT the 12th yet.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:31 AM
REPORTED as the 12th, it will all shake out soon enough
We cant prove it IS, or that it is NOT the 12th yet.

According to the University, 12th is not correct.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:44 AM
According to the University, 12th is not correct.

BUT we do not know....
Maybe the post mark is the 12th but then the question is WHEN did it arrive?

I would want to know that.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:48 AM
Also if he purchased the metered stamp it tells everything, where the stamp was bought, what time, and day. It will even tell who sold it to him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This will shake out pretty soon. at least we can know what the post mark on the Package is. We can then surmise when approximately did it arrive. IF there is an 11 day lag between the post mark and when the school says they got the package - Then I would have to say they are protecting themselves. Because it does not take 11 days to send any small package in the same town no way, even furniture can be delived sooner than that-- lol
But I guess we will know soon.

DeadCat
07-29-2012, 12:27 PM
So then the next question would be was the package not opened because the recipient was on vacation, day off or just lazy.
the last one (just lazy) can present a problem.

Well, it is summer. Many departments on campuses run on a traditional, academic calendar where summers are "off" for much of the faculty. (I say "off" because many times professors don't teach during summer or hold office hours, but they many still use the time to work from home to prep classes, write, and do research.) Staff duties/hours also may change during summer months. I don't think it would be unusual for mail to sit days or even weeks unopened in a mailroom during summer.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 01:00 PM
July 12 was from fox news anonymous source. Who knows who that source is. Prosecution denied the source was accurate, although specifically did not say anything about the date. University denied the source was accurate. I don't know that July 12 has anything to do with reality.
However, due to gag order, we are not likely to find out anything soon.

21merc7
07-29-2012, 02:20 PM
I'm thinking anon source said something like "last Monday" and Fox News calculated a date.

21merc7
07-29-2012, 02:21 PM
IIRC, there were 2 packages received at the school. One was reported as not from JH but they investigated it anyway. Were both packages received on the same day?

Yes, one was hand-delivered and slipped under a door, or so we were told.

ETA: add link


The first suspicious package reported Monday was in Building 500, the former Fitzsimons Army Hospital, and the building was locked down at 6:45 a.m. It was slipped under a door while the building was mostly empty.


The second package was reported in the Facilities Services Building. The building was evacuated at 12:26 p.m. and cleared for the return of employees at 3:06 p.m.

http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/Suspicious-Packages-At-Shooters-Former-School-Were-Not-A-Threat-163482596.html

KateB
07-29-2012, 03:29 PM
At this link, some more information on the doctor. It also shows her picture.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/details-emerge-on-psychiatrist-accused-colorado-massacre-gunman/

DENVER – As attorneys for the suspect in a Colorado movie theater rampage fight to find the source of media leaks about his case, more details are emerging about the psychiatrist who documents show treated him for years.

bbm
He'd only been there a little over a year?

jjenny
07-29-2012, 03:31 PM
DENVER – As attorneys for the suspect in a Colorado movie theater rampage fight to find the source of media leaks about his case, more details are emerging about the psychiatrist who documents show treated him for years.

bbm
He'd only been there a little over a year?

He wouldn't have even been in the same state until graduate school, so I very much doubt this woman treated him for years.

HastingsChi
07-29-2012, 04:28 PM
Exactly... so it may be hard to prove when the mail actualy did get there before or after the shooting.

The reason the university will not want it known if the package was delivered July 12 is that it would make them potentially liable and open the door to many wrongful death lawsuits. If it did arrive July 12 it will be revealed at trial. In my opinion the university is smart at this point to publicly deny the reported arrival date because it would be the focus of coverage for weeks and take emphasis off the victims and the individual truly responsible for the massacre.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

February
07-29-2012, 04:46 PM
Yes, one was hand-delivered and slipped under a door, or so we were told.

ETA: add link





http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/Suspicious-Packages-At-Shooters-Former-School-Were-Not-A-Threat-163482596.html

Wonder when it was slipped when his access was terminated to go to the University as of MID june?
Is he still allowed to visit the university specially that anshultz facilities after access terminations upon his incomplete withdrawal? If Fenton is his doctor and he is also a patient not just a student, will he still have the right to visit Fenton as a patient in that facility?

February
07-29-2012, 04:50 PM
The reason the university will not want it known if the package was delivered July 12 is that it would make them potentially liable and open the door to many wrongful death lawsuits. If it did arrive July 12 it will be revealed at trial. In my opinion the university is smart at this point to publicly deny the reported arrival date because it would be the focus of coverage for weeks and take emphasis off the victims and the individual truly responsible for the massacre.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

If we google how many lawsuits many schools got from lying then it is ALSO possible, i think, that this University could be lying to protect themselves. I hope the notebook will not gone missing later IMO.

HastingsChi
07-29-2012, 04:51 PM
Wonder when it was slipped when his access was terminated to go to the University as of MID june?
Is he still allowed to visit the university specially that anshultz facilities after access terminations upon his incomplete withdrawal? If Fenton is his doctor and he is also a patient not just a student, will he still have the right to visit Fenton as a patient in that facility?

My understanding is that he lost access to the specific facilities related to certain aspects of his program that only those in the program are able to access; since he was no longer in the program.

He could come and go to anywhere public on campus and classroom buildings not requiring a security fob/card for entry.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

HastingsChi
07-29-2012, 04:54 PM
If we google how many lawsuits many schools got from lying then it is ALSO possible, i think, that this University could be lying to protect themselves. I hope the notebook will not gone missing later IMO.

True but from a public relations and media relations standpoint it's better to have a July 12 delivery come out later when emotions aren't so high and it won't overwhelmingly impact the current fluid media. coverage

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

February
07-29-2012, 04:59 PM
True but from a public relations and media relations standpoint it's better to have a July 12 delivery come out later when emotions aren't so high and it won't overwhelmingly impact the current fluid media. coverage

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

Yes i agree but denial is a diffferent story, more liabilities involved, they shouldnt comment at all if they will just deny and lie

February
07-29-2012, 05:03 PM
My understanding is that he lost access to the specific facilities related to certain aspects of his program that only those in the program are able to access; since he was no longer in the program.

He could come and go to anywhere public on campus and classroom buildings not requiring a security fob/card for entry.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

Thanks Hastingschi

Hoping we can get direct answer if he is even allowed to go to Fenton's facility/office after his incomplete withdrawal at school

jjenny
07-29-2012, 05:04 PM
If we google how many lawsuits many schools got from lying then it is ALSO possible, i think, that this University could be lying to protect themselves. I hope the notebook will not gone missing later IMO.

That notebook is with the police, not the university.

February
07-29-2012, 05:07 PM
That notebook is with the police, not the university.

I didnt say the notebook is with police or with the University or the judge or fbi..
At this point, we dont know where it is lol
I just hope it will not go missing

jjenny
07-29-2012, 05:16 PM
I didnt say the notebook is with police or with the University or the judge or fbi..
At this point, we dont know where it is lol
I just hope it will not go missing

According to the prosecution, it's with Aurora Police Department.

February
07-29-2012, 05:19 PM
According to the prosecution, it's with Aurora Police Department.

Ahh from the court docs...

HastingsChi
07-29-2012, 05:36 PM
Ahh from the court docs...

was laughter involved? LOL

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

February
07-29-2012, 05:44 PM
was laughter involved? LOL

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

Hahaha...Happy Sunday!

shadowraiths
07-29-2012, 05:56 PM
Even *IF* the package was received the week before, it is my opinion that unless *ALL* of the following criteria are met:

The package was opened by the psychiatrist


who reasonably believed this guy posed a public threat


and did nothing (i.e., put him on a 72 hour)


...there would be no legal foundation to hold her, or the university, responsible for his actions.

That being said, I do admittedly wonder why the university disabled public access. ( link (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57477595/james-holmes-not-talking-ahead-of-first-court-appearance-after-aurora-theater-shooting/) )


The university declined to release any details of his academic record, citing privacy concerns, and at least two dozen professors and other staff declined to speak with The Associated Press. Some said they were instructed not to talk publicly about Holmes in a blanket email sent to university employees.

Montgomery said police have told the school to not talk about Holmes. The university took down the website for its graduate neuroscience program on Saturday.

I also wonder about the initial email that was sent, and later denials. ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/26/colorado-judge-bans-release-suspect-university-records/) )


About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.

DeadCat
07-29-2012, 06:07 PM
I also wonder about the initial email that was sent, and later denials. ( link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/26/colorado-judge-bans-release-suspect-university-records/) )


About 11 hours after the attack, Barry Shur, dean of the graduate school at the university, sent an email to faculty, students and staff saying: "If anyone is contacted by the media, PLEASE refer them" to a school spokeswoman. Shur's email was released in response to an open records request from the AP.

Earlier this week, Shur denied trying to prohibit those who knew Holmes from talking.

"We told them they are fully free to interact with the media," he said at a press conference Monday.


Seems like the uni has changed their tune. Their media relations page doesn't have the original email on it anymore (I don't think anyway. I am pretty sure that's where I'd accessed it before this past Monday). Now all the updates seem point to how forthcoming they've been. Is the original online in full anywhere--it told all not to speak the press and defer all to Ms. Montgomery at Media Relations.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/Pages/Newsroom.aspx

jjenny
07-29-2012, 07:19 PM
What exactly do people expect? Universities do have to follow HIPAA and FERPA. So they are not supposed to release information about a student, even without a GAG order. When they say that the package arrived on Monday July 23, and anonymous source for fox news was not accurate, some people still refuse to believe it.

shadowraiths
07-29-2012, 07:48 PM
What exactly do people expect?
I expect them to, at the very least, keep their stories straight. And yes, I get privacy issues. So, stick with that, instead of making conflicting statements, backpedalling and denying. As for the anonymous source? They're anonymous to us, not the reporter. Reporters, esp those from reputable news stations, are going to vet their sources. Even so, sure, their sources could still be full of it. Am just saying that there appears to be quite a few discrepancies in the various reports coming out. Including, in the court documents, pictures, and various victim and LE reports. Unfortunately, all this sort of thing does, is to quite naturally raise questions for some of us.

That being said, I think their behavior has more to do with fear of public reaction as opposed to having actually done anything wrong. Which is understandable. After all, the problem, as I see it, his treating psych was a member of the BETA (Behavioral Assessment and Threat Assessment) Team. This team is tasked to recognize and assess threatening behavior... to determine whether a student poses a threat. We already know that Holmes had been planning for, at least, four months. In this context, the public (and surviving victims) would quite naturally wonder how someone who exacted that degree of violence, could have flown under the radar for so long.

In reality, you know, and I know, that there is no true means to predict violence. Regardless of what the media portrays. Still we wonder. And, in some instances, our B.S. meters are quite accurate.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 07:58 PM
He might have not exhibited any threatening behavior because he didn't want people to know what he was up to. For whatever reason, people seem to be eager to blame anyone else but him. And even if there were any signs, what exactly can be done with these signs? The University can't lock anyone up, can not contact his parents due to FERPA (he is an adult after all). The only way something could have been done if he directly told his psychiatrist what he was up to. And there is nothing to suggest he did that.

Liz
07-29-2012, 10:01 PM
He might have not exhibited any threatening behavior because he didn't want people to know what he was up to. For whatever reason, people seem to be eager to blame anyone else but him. And even if there were any signs, what exactly can be done with these signs? The University can't lock anyone up, can not contact his parents due to FERPA (he is an adult after all). The only way something could have been done if he directly told his psychiatrist what he was up to. And there is nothing to suggest he did that.

~BBM ~

Where did you get this idea? I am almost certain this is absolutely not true.

You've repeatedly posted about news organizations' misreporting; not providing sources; and even just making stuff up. But many of your own posts imply information as being "factual", which (in my opinion) are not factual. And you provide no source whatsoever. :waitasec:

shadowraiths
07-29-2012, 10:32 PM
The only way something could have been done if he directly told his psychiatrist what he was up to.
Well, not quite. If he was exhibiting behavior that caused the attending physician to believe he posed a credible threat to himself or others, they could initiate a 72 hour hold.

The Florida version of a 72 hour hold is the Baker Act, which is part of the Florida Department of Children and Families ( link (http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/mentalhealth/laws/) ). And Cali's version is 5150, and is part of WIC (Welfare and Institutions Code), known as LPS ( aka the Lanterman–Petris–Short Act, link (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?file=5150-5157&group=05001-06000&section=wic) )

Here's the 72 hour hold for Colorado (i.e. Colorado Revised Statute, Title 27-10-105-II, link (http://www.naswco.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=197) )


Emergency Procedure – Who may initiate a 72 hour hold

(II) The following persons may effect a seventy-two-hour hold as provided in subparagraph (I) of this paragraph (a):

(A) A certified peace officer;
(B) A professional person;
(C) A registered professional nurse as defined in section 12-38-103 (11), C.R.S., who by reason of postgraduate education and additional nursing preparation has gained knowledge, judgment, and skill in psychiatric or mental health nursing;
(D) A licensed marriage and family therapist or licensed professional counselor, licensed under the provisions of part 5 or 6 of article 43 of title 12, C.R.S., or an addiction counselor licensed pursuant to section 12-43-804 (3), C.R.S., who by reason of postgraduate education and additional preparation has gained knowledge, judgment, and skill in psychiatric or clinical mental health therapy, forensic psychotherapy, or the evaluation of mental disorders; or
(E) A licensed clinical social worker licensed under the provisions of part 4 of article 43 of title 12, C.R.S.

Also see:


An Evaluation of the State of Colorado’s Care and Treatment of the Mentally Ill: Title 27, Article 10 (CRS 27-10-101 et seq.) ( link (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22An+Evalua tion+of+the+State+of+Colorado¿s+2008.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1251695798376&ssbinary=true) )

jjenny
07-29-2012, 10:37 PM
~BBM ~

Where did you get this idea? I am almost certain this is absolutely not true.

You've repeatedly posted about news organizations' misreporting; not providing sources; and even just making stuff up. But many of your own posts imply information as being "factual", which (in my opinion) are not factual. And you provide no source whatsoever. :waitasec:

It wasn't just me "posting" about news organizations misreporting, not providing sources, or even just making stuff up. Prosecution said the exact same thing in their motion. And if you want to believe anonymous fox news source, it's your prerogative. I am not sure what sources you want me to provide. When there is a source, I link it. The rest is my opinion.

songline
07-29-2012, 10:43 PM
What exactly do people expect? Universities do have to follow HIPAA and FERPA. So they are not supposed to release information about a student, even without a GAG order. When they say that the package arrived on Monday July 23, and anonymous source for fox news was not accurate, some people still refuse to believe it.

And that is the gospel?
Some people did not get the memo that all the facts have been released. :waitasec:

I say maybe? maybe not... We dont know yet.

songline
07-29-2012, 10:48 PM
He might have not exhibited any threatening behavior because he didn't want people to know what he was up to. For whatever reason, people seem to be eager to blame anyone else but him. And even if there were any signs, what exactly can be done with these signs? The University can't lock anyone up, can not contact his parents due to FERPA (he is an adult after all). The only way something could have been done if he directly told his psychiatrist what he was up to. And there is nothing to suggest he did that.


FACTUALLY: They could have done something if he exhibited that
he is a danger to himself or to anyone else.
so your "only: theory is just a theory......

jjenny
07-29-2012, 10:50 PM
Well, not quite. If he was exhibiting behavior that caused the attending physician to believe he posed a credible threat to himself or others, they could initiate a 72 hour hold.



Yes, she would have to know he represents an imminent threat to himself or others, but how would she know this unless he told her? I suppose she somehow could have figured it out without him telling her-but I doubt it.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 10:53 PM
FACTUALLY: They could have done something if he exhibited that
he is a danger to himself or to anyone else.
so your "only: theory is just a theory......

I would like for somebody to come up with examples of behavior he would have to exhibit for her to know he is a direct threat to others. And I don't think red hair would work. He was sitting in court looking quite pitiful. Would any of you know that he was a danger to others by simply looking at him and his weird facial expressions?

songline
07-29-2012, 11:00 PM
Yes, she would have to know he represents an imminent threat to himself or others, but how would she know this unless he told her? I suppose she somehow could have figured it out without him telling her-but I doubt it.
There are more ways to exhibit a threat:
attempted suicide, excessive pills, cutting - just to mention a few...there are others.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:01 PM
There are more ways to exhibit a threat:
attempted suicide, excessive pills, cutting - just to mention a few...there are others.

We don't have any information that he ever attempted a suicide.

Liz
07-29-2012, 11:01 PM
I'm thinking anon source said something like "last Monday" and Fox News calculated a date.

I have a hard time believing Fox News (or any news org) would do something that irresponsible.

I do realize news organizations make mistakes such as ABC News' reporting that 'JH might be a tea party member' the morning of the shootings. Or, ABC News' reporting that JH's mom implied that her son 'was the right one' that had commited the mass shootings in Aurora. But to outright make up a delivery date based on anonymous calculations .... I can't see it. Especially the way FNC has stuck to the July 12th date all along.

(Fox initially reported the package arrived on campus on the 12th; and later updated that to stating it may have been postmarked the 12th. But they are sticking by and with the 12th.)

Part of UC's press release (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/26/157403438/reports-notebook-from-colo-shootings-suspect-arrived-at-school-after-attack) stated, "The anonymous Fox News source that stated the package was received and sat on a loading dock is inaccurate.":

Replying to that:

Fox News Stands By Its Reporting: In a statement sent to reporters, Fox News executive vice president/executive editor John Moody says that "we respect the university's position but are confident that our law enforcement source, who we will not name because of a prior agreement, was in a position to know the timing of the package's whereabouts. We believe those details will be part of the evidence, which will be presented at an eventual trial.")

For the record, Fox News never reported that the package sat on a loading dock.

I'm not saying it's not 'possible'. Just saying I have a hard time believing Fox simply calculated a date, and reported it as such. Especially in a case of this magnitude. JMO

February
07-29-2012, 11:03 PM
I would like for somebody to come up with examples of behavior he would have to exhibit for her to know he is a direct threat to others. And I don't think red hair would work.

"will you visit me in jail"

This is a THREAT that he can commit a crime anytime soon.

how do we know that the psychiatrist seen this or not?
How do we know that JH didnt give his adultfriend finder profile to his psychiatrist or not?

No we dont know alll what happened between JH and Fenton.
We dont even know if JH was even allowed to see him since his access to some facilities are terminated

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:06 PM
"will you visit me in jail"

This is a THREAT that he can commit a crime anytime soon.

how do we know that the psychiatrist seen this or not?
How do we know that JH didnt give his adultfriend finder profile to his psychiatrist or not?

No we dont know alll what happened between JH and Fenton.
We dont even know if JH was even allowed to see him since his access to some facilities are terminated

"Will you visit me in prison" is quite ambiguous. I don't think that would qualify as an imminent threat. Obviously none of AFF members became alarmed and reported him. You can find worse examples on the internet, and those people for the most parts don't do anything, they are just trying to be original or funny. In addition, I really doubt he would give his AFF profile to his psychiatrist.

shadowraiths
07-29-2012, 11:07 PM
Yes, she would have to know he represents an imminent threat to himself or others, but how would she know this unless he told her? I suppose she somehow could have figured it out without him telling her-but I doubt it.
Hypothetically, others can bring such an individual to her or other's attention based upon observations. Or, for that matter, he could exhibit behaviors that raised suspicion. At this time, that we are aware, that did not happen. And, afaics, nothing he did indicated warning signs. Even though he was stocking up on firearms and ammunition. Plenty of people do that and don't go ballistic on innocents. Regardless, I am not claiming there were warning signs to be had. I am simply challenging your assertion that there is only one path to a 72 hour hold.

February
07-29-2012, 11:09 PM
"Will you visit me in prison" is quite ambiguous. I don't think that would qualify as an imminent threat. Obviously none of AFF members became alarmed or reported him. You can find worse examples on the internet, and those people for the most parts don't do anything, they are just trying to be original or funny. In addition, I really doubt he would give his AFF profile to his psychiatrist.


well That is your opinion. If i see my friend posted that, i will be alarmed and contact his friends, family or even a cop.

At this time, you and I and everyone here dont know if the Psychiatrist knows that AFF site. I am actually surprise to see the Psychiatrist being associated to the game World of Warcraft on her conference as part of psychotherapy so anything is possible at this time.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:10 PM
Hypothetically, others can bring such an individual to her or other's attention based upon observations. Or, for that matter, he could exhibit behaviors that raised suspicion. At this time, that we are aware, that did not happen. And, afaics, nothing he did indicated warning signs. Even though he was stocking up on firearms and ammunition. Plenty of people do that and don't go ballistic on innocents. Regardless, I am not claiming there were warning signs to be had. I am simply challenging your assertion that there is only one path to a 72 hour hold.

I personally think it's way to easy for people to stock up on firearms and ammunition. A lot of things could be implemented there that, in my opinion, could save lives.

February
07-29-2012, 11:12 PM
I say maybe? Maybe not... We dont know yet.

exactly...

songline
07-29-2012, 11:17 PM
I would like for somebody to come up with examples of behavior he would have to exhibit for her to know he is a direct threat to others. And I don't think red hair would work. He was sitting in court looking quite pitiful. Would any of you know that he was a danger to others by simply looking at him and his weird facial expressions?


Knives, driving real fast to threaten and scare someone, cutting himself, burning, cruelty to a child or animal...you really don’t need more....
PEOPLE have been known to exhibit these behaviors is that enough of a danger to themselves and others. Oh there are a few on my previous post too.

Roxye
07-29-2012, 11:20 PM
Knives, driving real fast to threaten and scare someone, cutting himself, burning, cruelty to a child or animal...you really don’t need more....
PEOPLE have been known to exhibit these behaviors is that enough of a danger to themselves and others. Oh there are a few on my previous post too.

We have no proof, as of yet, that JH exhibited any of these behaviors to anyone.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:21 PM
We don't have any information that he ever attempted a suicide.

NOP we have no evidence yet that he was a threat to himself or anyone else. NO WE DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL YET.
Just dead bodies. :(

And you don’t have any more fact than anyone else. So people here don’t have to believe you as you so indicate.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:23 PM
We have no proof, as of yet, that JH exhibited any of these behaviors to anyone.

No... of course not but jjenny said that the only way for anyone to know if he was dangerous is if he told his therapist.
BUT IT S NOT THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW. nobody knows very much yet.

shadowraiths
07-29-2012, 11:26 PM
I would like for somebody to come up with examples of behavior he would have to exhibit for her to know he is a direct threat to others.
For one, she would not know. No one can know. The best she, or anyone can do, is to assess a situation... to predict risk factors. These factors can include everything from obsessive beliefs that incorporate violence. Fixating on an individual and stalking them. Sinking into suicidal ideation. Importantly, notable decompensation. Extreme behavioral changes that might suggest organicity, a psychotic break with reality, something of that nature. Even then, unless the behavior is so extreme as to raise concerns, nothing can really be done. Not even a 72 hour hold. The key here, would be extreme and noticeable changes that would raise valid concerns. Again, am not stating that he exhibited any of this. Simply challenging your belief that a person has to tell their therapist some plan to do something to be put on a 72 hour hold.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:29 PM
What exactly do people expect? Universities do have to follow HIPAA and FERPA. So they are not supposed to release information about a student, even without a GAG order. When they say that the package arrived on Monday July 23, and anonymous source for fox news was not accurate, some people still refuse to believe it.

IT is not that we refuse to believe you. It is that we are not sure of the facts a t all.

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:33 PM
Knives, driving real fast to threaten and scare someone, cutting himself, burning, cruelty to a child or animal...you really don’t need more....
PEOPLE have been known to exhibit these behaviors is that enough of a danger to themselves and others. Oh there are a few on my previous post too.

Most of those behaviors you described are actually illegal. He'd be arrested if he exhibited any of these behaviors. I am talking about him going to her office. Without him talking, how would she know about imminent danger to others?

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:35 PM
For one, she would not know. No one can know. The best she, or anyone can do, is to assess a situation... to predict risk factors. These factors can include everything from obsessive beliefs that incorporate violence. Fixating on an individual and stalking them. Sinking into suicidal ideation. Importantly, notable decompensation. Extreme behavioral changes that might suggest organicity, a psychotic break with reality, something of that nature. Even then, unless the behavior is so extreme as to raise concerns, nothing can really be done. Not even a 72 hour hold. The key here, would be extreme and noticeable changes that would raise valid concerns. Again, am not stating that he exhibited any of this. Simply challenging your belief that a person has to tell their therapist some plan to do something to be put on a 72 hour hold.

I presume he'd still have to talk to her about these beliefs.

February
07-29-2012, 11:37 PM
:party: It's getting hot in here :party:


What's the title of the music JH was playing on repeat at his apartment?
wanna see some lyrics..

songline
07-29-2012, 11:41 PM
Most of those behaviors you described are actually illegal. He'd be arrested if he exhibited any of these behaviors. I am talking about him going to her office. Without him talking, how would she know about imminent danger to others?

I think you should read ShadowCatcher's reply to you a few posts up. Maybe #229.

I can’t say it any better than that.

songline
07-29-2012, 11:42 PM
:party: It's getting hot in here :party:


What's the title of the music JH was playing on repeat at his apartment?
wanna see some lyrics..



LOL :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: OK cool...

February
07-29-2012, 11:45 PM
LOL :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: OK cool...


:genie:

I want to know if the title is Killing Game by Skinny Puppy and link for confirmations :)

jjenny
07-29-2012, 11:49 PM
I think you should read ShadowCatcher's reply to you a few posts up. Maybe #229.

I can’t say it any better than that.

As far as I understand the paragraph below, he would have to make a threat for her to take action. Otherwise, she won't be held liable for failing to predict his violent behaviors.

"Under Colorado law, mental health professionals cannot be held liable in civil suits for failing to predict a patient's violent behavior unless it involves a "serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons." When such a threat is made, the mental health professional is required to take action, which may include notifying those targeted or a law enforcement agency."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-denver-thirdfuneralbre86q197-20120727,0,4468820.story

songline
07-30-2012, 12:02 AM
Tomorrow they will charge him and the list will be long. He will be shocked at what he is charged with.
But he did ask some on craigslist if they would visit him in jail… So at least one of him knows where he is and why.
We are going to say he is acting again... great.... No matter what he is not getting off... it is not a case of who done it.
I want to hear all the charges and see how this may shake out, how University will describe why he failed his oral, and how he seemed to them as a student.
I am curious why it may take this long to detect MI before someone harms so many. I know it is not easy to detect but they have seen him daily in school and I want to hear how and when they think he spiraled. It will take some time, I am sure.
He is not going to be set free, so those of you jumping on him just please relax, he is permanently incarcerated and a lot of people do not want him to ever be free. I just want to know how he was able to keep going so long what would make him think this way, why?
Yes I think they should throw away the key… but I want to understand if at all I can, by the facts, that they can string together.

I do pitty him – he is a tortured soul. :(
You must be to want t do somethins so horrific.

songline
07-30-2012, 12:04 AM
As far as I understand the paragraph below, he would have to make a threat for her to take action. Otherwise, she won't be held liable for failing to predict his violent behaviors.

"Under Colorado law, mental health professionals cannot be held liable in civil suits for failing to predict a patient's violent behavior unless it involves a "serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons." When such a threat is made, the mental health professional is required to take action, which may include notifying those targeted or a law enforcement agency."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-denver-thirdfuneralbre86q197-20120727,0,4468820.story

This does not say he had to SAY anything BEHVIOUR SPEAKS LOUD.

songline
07-30-2012, 12:06 AM
:genie:

I want to know if the title is Killing Game by Skinny Puppy and link for confirmations :)
I am tired and going to sleep.. LOL :)
WTF are you talking about - Please dont lose your mind.
Stay Strong :)

February
07-30-2012, 12:11 AM
Tomorrow they will charge him and the list will be long. He will be shocked at what he is charged with.
But he did ask some on craigslist if they would visit him in jail… So at least one of him knows where he is and why.
We are going to say he is acting again... great.... No matter what he is not getting off... it is not a case of who done it.
I want to hear all the charges and see how this may shake out, how University will describe why he failed his oral, and how he seemed to them as a student.
I am curious why it may take this long to detect MI before someone harms so many. I know it is not easy to detect but they have seen him daily in school and I want to hear how and when they think he spiraled. It will take some time, I am sure.
He is not going to be set free, so those of you jumping on him just please relax, he is permanently incarcerated and a lot of people do not want him to ever be free. I just want to know how he was able to keep going so long what would make him think this way, why?
Yes I think they should throw away the key… but I want to understand if at all I can, by the facts, that they can string together.

I do pitty him – he is a tortured soul. :(
You must be to want t do somethins so horrific.


seriously, i dont want him FREE... Jail or Mental Hospital but not FREE
But mopre importantly, i dont want this to happen again.
If the School have anything to do with this, an action has to be done to save other students.
If that Fenton have anything to do with this, she might as well join JH in jail.
If anyone else have anything to do with this, they have to pay the victims and this non-sense has to stop.

We are all in the same boat. We want to see justice for the victims but if Justice is half baked, somebody has to put all of them in the oven and bake it right..:seeya:

February
07-30-2012, 12:13 AM
I am tired and going to sleep.. LOL :)
WTF are you talking about - Please dont lose your mind.
Stay Strong :)

Hahaha that is the title of the song from different people but no confirmations yet... Killing Game by Skinny Puppy :)

shadowraiths
07-30-2012, 12:42 AM
I presume he'd still have to talk to her about these beliefs.
Possibly but again, not required. He could, for example, write in a journal. Tell someone else who related them to her, etcetera.


As far as I understand the paragraph below, he would have to make a threat for her to take action. Otherwise, she won't be held liable for failing to predict his violent behaviors.
This would be true. If he made an explicit threat, she would be liable if she did not report, under duty to warn. However, if he did not make explicit threats but exhibited behaviors that concerned her, she could place him on a 72 hour hold. Either way, I highly doubt this was the case. Though, I do suspect whatever she was treating him for will come out at trial.

For example, was she the prescribing physician wrt the alleged vicodin that we heard about in early reports? And if these reports were, indeed true, and she was the prescribing physician, why and how much was she prescribing? What, if any behaviors, did she notice? That sort of thing.

I do think the notebook will be pivotal, or at least, a central focus in this trial. For example, did she ask him to journal? And if so, did she see the notebook over time? If not, which seems quite possible... likely, imho... since he sent her the notebook, I cannot help but to wonder... was it his final "FU?"

Might that have been why he chose to send the journal? To her, specifically? That is, since he was in the process of withdrawing from the PhD program, had she terminated their therapeutic relationship? If so, what, if any, steps did she take to transition him to another treating psychiatrist?

And herein lies the crux to this hypothetical. If she did not take any steps to transition him, and her notes indicate he needed continued treatment, she could potentially be held responsible for what is legally known as psychiatric abandonment. ( link (http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/50826) ) Furthermore, if such were the case, then timing would be everything.

That being said, and all things considered, in light of what has come out thus far, this seems like the most likely scenario. Even so, this hypothetical is still nothing more than speculation. Importantly, if it turned out to be true, it would not relieve him of responsibility. But it could open the school up for liability as well as explain their seemingly erratic and rather contradicting behaviors.

HastingsChi
07-30-2012, 01:11 AM
:party: It's getting hot in here :party:


What's the title of the music JH was playing on repeat at his apartment?
wanna see some lyrics..

Surprisingly the song was MMMBop... :D

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

February
07-30-2012, 01:13 AM
He was looking for another apartment....
Nine days before the shooting, Holmes was seen on Paris Street, asking landlords and neighbours if anyone was aware of a vacant apartment in the area, several neighbours told Reuters.
On July 11, at around 3:30 p.m, Holmes approached neighbour Carl Pedro Allen, 54, who was sitting in front of 1733 Paris Street -- about a block away from Holmes' apartment building. Holmes asked Allen, and others gathered there, if they knew of any vacant one-bedroom apartments.

"We let him know there were no vacancies, but we told him about where he might be able to find an open apartment," Allen said.
Holmes was wearing jeans and sneakers and described himself as a local student, Allen said. But Allen also said he noticed something strange about Holmes' eyes.

"His eyes were fluttering and blinking," Allen said. "It was really weird. I didn't know if he was high or what, but those eyes kept fluttering."

Two others who witnessed the incident, Ashley Jones, 25, and Rosando "JR" Causus, a maintenance man at 1733 Paris Street, independently confirmed Allen's story.

At Holmes' initial court appearance last week, observers said his eyes fluttered wildly and he blinked repeatedly.

Kylina Washington, 14, said she and her friend Asia Quinn spoke with Holmes around the same time Allen said he did, behind a 7-Eleven where clerks recognized Holmes as a regular customer.

"He said he was moving," Washington said.

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/neighbours-colorado-shooting-suspect-likely-facing-eviction/121152/

HastingsChi
07-30-2012, 01:33 AM
He was looking for another apartment....
Nine days before the shooting, Holmes was seen on Paris Street, asking landlords and neighbours if anyone was aware of a vacant apartment in the area, several neighbours told Reuters.
On July 11, at around 3:30 p.m, Holmes approached neighbour Carl Pedro Allen, 54, who was sitting in front of 1733 Paris Street -- about a block away from Holmes' apartment building. Holmes asked Allen, and others gathered there, if they knew of any vacant one-bedroom apartments.

"We let him know there were no vacancies, but we told him about where he might be able to find an open apartment," Allen said.
Holmes was wearing jeans and sneakers and described himself as a local student, Allen said. But Allen also said he noticed something strange about Holmes' eyes.

"His eyes were fluttering and blinking," Allen said. "It was really weird. I didn't know if he was high or what, but those eyes kept fluttering."

Two others who witnessed the incident, Ashley Jones, 25, and Rosando "JR" Causus, a maintenance man at 1733 Paris Street, independently confirmed Allen's story.

At Holmes' initial court appearance last week, observers said his eyes fluttered wildly and he blinked repeatedly.

Kylina Washington, 14, said she and her friend Asia Quinn spoke with Holmes around the same time Allen said he did, behind a 7-Eleven where clerks recognized Holmes as a regular customer.

"He said he was moving," Washington said.

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/neighbours-colorado-shooting-suspect-likely-facing-eviction/121152/

The statements of people who following a high profile news story claim to have interacted with that individual are always suspect to me in this age of so many desperately yearning for their 15 seconds of fame. I always question their credibility.

The statement from the 14 year old was accurate, he was moving and did in fact move... to government run housing...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

jjenny
07-30-2012, 01:35 AM
The statements of people who following a high profile news story claim to have interacted with that individual are always suspect to me in this age of so many desperately yearning for their 15 seconds of fame. I always question their credibility.

The statement from the 14 year old was accurate, he was moving and did in fact move... to government run housing...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

Where did he move? I haven't heard anything about that.

zvzvzv
07-30-2012, 01:38 AM
Hahaha that is the title of the song from different people but no confirmations yet... Killing Game by Skinny Puppy :)

the neighbor described the music as a loop & in one audio
interview she used the term "dubstep" which hasn't been repeated
in the media i think because the audio clipped in the middle
of the word& most people don't know what that means anyway.
KILLING GAME is slow & bass-heavy enough to be confused
with dubstep, but its song structure is too varied
(in loudness even) to be heard as a "loop"
even by someone with no musical background.
if the dating profile was correct where it said he dislikes
'dubstep wub wub', maybe he though to play the most obnoxious music
(to him) in the apartment, to call immediate attention.
if it's something that he likes and also dubstep & obnoxious
i would guess "End of The World" by Otto Von Schirach is a good choice.

February
07-30-2012, 01:40 AM
Where did he move? I haven't heard anything about that.

government run housing ----- Jail :moo:

HastingsChi
07-30-2012, 01:48 AM
Where did he move? I haven't heard anything about that.

you realize he's no longer living at that apartment and is now a guest of the State; right?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2