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JBean
07-26-2012, 02:04 AM
We don't know a lot about JH's psych profile but we can put some of the pieces together here.

be civil to each other please. None of us know what the truth is at this point so stick to the facts and any speculation should be based on those facts.

Do not make accusations towards the family..at all. We do not know the dynamics. If this should change the rule will change with it.

Thanks.

HastingsChi
08-01-2012, 06:37 PM
Here is the full article; I basically transcribed the details of the report on World News with Diane Sawyer in my earlier post:

Psychiatrist Called Threat-Team About Aurora Shooting Suspect James Holmes (http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-psychiatrist-schools-threat-assessment-team/story?id=16908862)


Aurora, Colo., shooting suspect James Holmes came to the attention of the threat assessment committee at the University of Colorado but no further action was taken because he left the school more than a month before the attack that killed 12 and injured 58, sources told ABC News.

ABC News has learned that Dr. Lynne Fenton, the psychiatrist who was treating Holmes, 24, at the school, was also a key member of the university's threat assessment team. The group of experts were responsible for protecting the school from potentially violent students.

KMGH-TV, ABC News' affiliate in Denver, reported exclusively that, according to sources, by early June, Fenton had informed other members of the team about her concerns regarding Holmes.

But on June 10 -- three days after Holmes bought an assault weapon and added it to his already growing arsenal -- he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation.

JBean
08-02-2012, 07:52 AM
Please continue discussion here on Holme's behavior and treatment.
Please stay on topic.

rollinginit
08-02-2012, 07:55 AM
most kids just stay on their parents insurance these days. they are covered until they turn 26. i don't know for sure if he is, but i would guess that he would be. jmo

Uh, that depends on many things.

I know 30 days before my daughter turned 19, our insurance requested some information about her. Where she working...McD's....and where she went to school. Then they dropped her on her 19th birthday. The reason, b/c she had a job. It didn't matter that she was part time and going to school full time. Mcd's offers insurance. Expensive insurance. Didn't matter to our insurance company.

Now, in 2014, if she still doesn't have insurance, I can add her back on ours. That when the law comes into full effect.

songline
08-02-2012, 07:58 AM
Like I said yesterday:
If I was JH Mom I would sue the therapist and school so bad they would be out of business permanently.
IMHO this was to be treated with urgency in June - 5 weeks passed. As a Mom I would not accept that at all.


Report: Psychiatrist warned university about Aurora suspect weeks before massacre
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/02/13081771-report-psychiatrist-warned-university-about-aurora-suspect-weeks-before-massacre?lite


But MI has such a stigma that people do not handle it respectfully.
Get a great Lawyer Mrs. Holmes because you will have no sympathy with so many dead, not an easy case.
But as his mom -you should get started on it today. Teaching this specialty there should be far more accountability.


MOO MOO MOO

gitana1
08-02-2012, 08:12 AM
RIGHT ON :woohoo::woohoo:

she did have the power to commit him to a hospital against his will.

I bet that her records are in up to par, and she will make up everything to fit into some BS Un= accountability.
(there are enough links here that talk about her record keeping) __________________



Hey Songline, what is your legal basis for stating that this psychiatrist had the power to commit him to a hospital against his will?

In my experience, local police make the decision whether they will take a person to the hospital. If they do, once there, hospital psychs determine whether they will keep a person there, against there will.

The only power the treating psychiatrist has is to report direct threats of harm to the authorities. And if there are no such direct threats, then she can say nothing. So can you tell me your legal basis for concluding this psych had the power to do this?

Also, if she communicated her concerns to the rest of the BETA team, that means they were trying to set up a voluntary assessment. As I have repeated several times, that would be wholly unnecessary if a direct threat had been made. Instead, it sounds like this guy may have been exhibiting bizarre behavior that seriously concerned the psychiatrist but that did not rise to the level of reportable behavior.

Do you doubt what I am saying? Do you believe that a direct threat was made and communicated by Fenton to a whole team of mental health professionals and not one of them called the authorities? Or do you believe that a treating mental health professional has the unilateral authority to commit a patient against their will, in the absence of a direct threat of harm? If so, what is your legal basis for saying this?

Thanks in advance, friend. I'm seriously trying to understand!!

P.S. Glad to see someone else is up. I'm having serious insomnia!!!

HastingsChi
08-02-2012, 08:39 AM
Let's not forget that James Holmes' mother Arlene is a register nurse (reports have indicated that she works in the psychiatric division although I can't confirm).

That being said, I would assume him having health insurance would be important to them and as a student he could be covered by his parents plan. Also of note, if in fact Arlene Holmes is a psychiatric nurse, perhaps she encouraged James to seek treatment at the university. (Which in my opinion if true would be wonderful and helpful to rehabilitate her in the public's eyes) Also makes me think that the parents were likely unaware he dropped out.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

21merc7
08-02-2012, 08:47 AM
Why are we worried about insurance? Didn't the school policy posted in the last thread say students would be covered for 6 more months free of charge after they left the program?

It was his choice if he wanted to continue to see Dr. Fenton or another Doc at the campus. Clearly he didn't like Fenton, or he would not have sent her a package knowing the damage it could do for her.

If he wanted treatment, I'm certain every Doc on the campus would have helped him find it or even given it. We know from others that have posted here that his studies included having a Psych Doc available to them, so I don't understand any insurance debates as far as JH is concerned.

tambo
08-02-2012, 08:51 AM
Uh, that depends on many things.

I know 30 days before my daughter turned 19, our insurance requested some information about her. Where she working...McD's....and where she went to school. Then they dropped her on her 19th birthday. The reason, b/c she had a job. It didn't matter that she was part time and going to school full time. Mcd's offers insurance. Expensive insurance. Didn't matter to our insurance company.

Now, in 2014, if she still doesn't have insurance, I can add her back on ours. That when the law comes into full effect.

hmmmm, that is strange. I don't know where you live or who your insurance company is, but that law went into effect in sept of 2010. my son has been back on our insurance for almost a year, we only had to wait for our enrollment period and then put him back on. He is not a student etc...he has a friend who is married and also was able to be put back on his parents insurance,,,,i think your insurance company is not following the law. I would call them asap. I know that you said your daughter works for mc'ds part time which means she is not eligible for insurance through them, so she should be eligible under yours....good luck

jjenny
08-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Like I said yesterday:
If I was JH Mom I would sue the therapist and school so bad they would be out of business permanently.
IMHO this was to be treated with urgency in June - 5 weeks passed. As a Mom I would not accept that at all.


Report: Psychiatrist warned university about Aurora suspect weeks before massacre
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/02/13081771-report-psychiatrist-warned-university-about-aurora-suspect-weeks-before-massacre?lite


But MI has such a stigma that people do not handle it respectfully.
Get a great Lawyer Mrs. Holmes because you will have no sympathy with so many dead, not an easy case.
But as his mom -you should get started on it today. Teaching this specialty there should be far more accountability.


MOO MOO MOO

What exactly would be the basis for any such lawsuit? Really? What merit could it possibly have?

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:00 AM
Why are we worried about insurance? Didn't the school policy posted in the last thread say students would be covered for 6 more months free of charge after they left the program?

It was his choice if he wanted to continue to see Dr. Fenton or another Doc at the campus. Clearly he didn't like Fenton, or he would not have sent her a package knowing the damage it could do for her.

If he wanted treatment, I'm certain every Doc on the campus would have helped him find it or even given it. We know from others that have posted here that his studies included having a Psych Doc available to them, so I don't understand any insurance debates as far as JH is concerned.

Did the school post that he could be treated for six month even after leaving the program? I missed that.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Did the school post that he could be treated for six month even after leaving the program? I missed that.

Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc. MOOOOO

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Did the school post that he could be treated for six month even after leaving the program? I missed that.

I thought so, but I hadn't had any coffee yet. I'll go back and look.

ETA: I was wrong, they have the right to continue the plan for 6 months. I still think the Docs would have helped him out though, one way or another:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/student-health/Documents/AMC_StdntHlthBroch.pdf

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:09 AM
Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc.

I agree. If he asked for referral I am sure the school would have helped him finding a new doctor.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:25 AM
Do we know the date of the failed oral exam? Which professor(s) give it and determine pass/fail? Then compare to date Fenton alerted Beta Team?

Liz
08-02-2012, 09:26 AM
Let's not forget that James Holmes' mother Arlene is a register nurse (reports have indicated that she works in the psychiatric division although I can't confirm).

That being said, I would assume him having health insurance would be important to them and as a student he could be covered by his parents plan. Also of note, if in fact Arlene Holmes is a psychiatric nurse, perhaps she encouraged James to seek treatment at the university. (Which in my opinion if true would be wonderful and helpful to rehabilitate her in the public's eyes) Also makes me think that the parents were likely unaware he dropped out.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II

I don't recall seeing anywhere about Arlene being a psych nurse but I def heard that she had asked him to get counseling. I'll dig around and see if I can find a report to substantiate that.

I just have a feeling that one of JH's biggest fears was the possibility of having to face his father, and tell him he'd dropped out of school.

I'd read a couple articles that implied that JH may've felt pressured to live up to his father's highly accomplished career, after receiving his PhD. It very well could've been that JH was feeling the need (pressure), within himself, to live up to dad's high standards, for all I know.

I really, really want to find out when he dyed his hair red. I just have a feeling that just prior to that date, something very significant happened in his life that made him "snap". Sorry for those who hate the 'snap' term.

JAF, JMO, and MOO.

Liz
08-02-2012, 09:28 AM
Do we know the date of the failed oral exam? Which professor(s) give it and determine pass/fail? Then compare to date Fenton alerted Beta Team?

I don't know for sure he ever took the oral exam. Do you? From what I've read, I actually think he may've failed his prelims.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:31 AM
Another few questions if anyone knows the answers.

Did he have a prescription for the Vicodin he allegedly said he took?

If so, why would a 24 year old have Vicodin? If for anxiety, why not prescribe one of the many other non-addictive anti-anxiety meds that do not have as many negative side effects? Vicodin is a very serious drug!

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:35 AM
I don't know for sure he ever took the oral exam. Do you? From what I've read, I actually think he may've failed his prelims.

I don't know, I couldn't keep up with all the fast reporting and conflicting reports. Failing prelims would definitely make him mad, if everyone told him all his life how smart he is.

I was thinking, passing high school and college with good grades is normal, getting through a tough program as this requires more than just memorizing and writing a few paragraphs for papers, it is much more complicated. Requires a good deal more of self-discipline, research, and creativity, as opposed to just college. (Which does require those things, but not to the degree this program would.) Hard to do when you are at an age of experimentation with living life outside of parents and general social guidelines.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:38 AM
Another few questions if anyone knows the answers.

Did he have a prescription for the Vicodin he allegedly said he took?

If so, why would a 24 year old have Vicodin? If for anxiety, why not prescribe one of the many other non-addictive anti-anxiety meds that do not have as many negative side effects? Vicodin is a very serious drug!

We don't yet know where he got vicodin. I am not aware of many non-addictive anti anxiety meds, though. I believe xanax is also considered addictive.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:39 AM
I don't know for sure he ever took the oral exam. Do you? From what I've read, I actually think he may've failed his prelims.

Oral exam is a part of prelims, I believe.

Liz
08-02-2012, 09:40 AM
Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc.

You could be right, but I really feel we can not state with definity that JH clearly didn't want to see a Dr. We've had no information to substantiate that. We really don't know. We need more facts. JMO, MOO, and all that jazz.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:43 AM
We don't yet know where he got vicodin. I am not aware of many non-addictive anti anxiety meds, though. I believe xanax is also considered addictive.

Thanks, didn't know if that had been reported yet.

There are drugs that do not have the effects Vicodin does, that is what I was asking. I thought there were some that were not addictive, meaning, don't feel like a junkie needing a high.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:45 AM
You could be right, but I really feel we can not state with definity that JH clearly didn't want to see a Dr. We've had no information to substantiate that. We really don't know. We need more facts. JMO, MOO, and all that jazz.

Oops, forgot to add another moo, going to fix it.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:46 AM
Thanks, didn't know if that had been reported yet.

There are drugs that do not have the effects Vicodin does, that is what I was asking. I thought there were some that were not addictive, meaning, don't feel like a junkie needing a high.

I am not aware of such drugs. But if they exist, they most likely are much less effective.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 09:51 AM
I am not aware of such drugs. But if they exist, they most likely are much less effective.

Xanax gives you a high?

The many people I know on anti-depressants for either anxiety or depression never said anything about getting a high or craving more. In fact, they just didn't like them. The only mentioned psychological side effect is just not feeling up or down.

I could be wrong, but none of their medications contained opiods as Vicodin does. Or so I thought, maybe I'd better go look them up.

ETA: Okay, a couple are benzos which you can get a high from, most are classified SSRI, so, I don't think you get high and crave them, but they are addictive, I still don't know about a high on those. I'm still wondering why give someone Vicodin instead of one of the others, but it is moot since we are not sure he had Vicodin much less a prescription for it.

cece5300
08-02-2012, 09:53 AM
If I was JH Mom I would sue the therapist and school so bad they would be out of business permanently
For what? Not being able to tell the future? Not continuing to treat an adult student who voluntarily left the program and didn't seek further treatment? If the psychiatrist would have called the police (or whatever it is you expect them to have done), nothing would have happened. Nobody saw this coming.

KMouse
08-02-2012, 09:54 AM
Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc.

If somebody doesn't followup with their appointments there isn't much a doctor can do. Same with taking medication.
However if this psychiatrist reported the suspect to the threat assessment committee we don't know what the basis of that report was. If it were a threat to other people then it should have been followed up by being reported to LE.
Where I am from a doctor can go get a mental health warrant and the police will go and pick the person up and take them to the hospital for a psych. assessment.

I am not sure how JH's mother fit's into this or why she should sue. Sue who for what?

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:55 AM
Xanax gives you a high?

The many people I know on anti-depressants for either anxiety or depression never said anything about getting a high or craving more. In fact, they just didn't like them. The only mentioned psychological side effect is just not feeling up or down.

I could be wrong, but none of their medications contained opiods as Vicodin does. Or so I thought, maybe I'd better go look them up.

I don't know if xanax can give someone a high, but it is considered habit forming.
"Alprazolam can be habit-forming. Do not take a larger dose, take it more often, or take it for a longer period of time than prescribed by your doctor . "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000807/

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:57 AM
If somebody doesn't followup with their appointments there isn't much a doctor can do. Same with taking medication.
However if this psychiatrist reported the suspect to the threat assessment committee we don't know what the basis of that report was. If it were a threat to other people then it should have been followed up by being reported to LE.
Where I am from a doctor can go get a mental health warrant and the police will go and pick the person up and take them to the hospital for a psych. assessment.

She could report him to police if she knew about serious threat toward specific person or persons. We don't know if she knew anything like that.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 10:22 AM
If somebody doesn't followup with their appointments there isn't much a doctor can do. Same with taking medication.
However if this psychiatrist reported the suspect to the threat assessment committee we don't know what the basis of that report was. If it were a threat to other people then it should have been followed up by being reported to LE.
Where I am from a doctor can go get a mental health warrant and the police will go and pick the person up and take them to the hospital for a psych. assessment.

I am not sure how JH's mother fit's into this or why she should sue. Sue who for what?

We don't know if he threatened harm to himself or others. We don't know what the report was. Could have been anything. We'll have to wait to find out why LE was not called. A team of people made that choice, so perhaps they did not see him as being a harm to self or others.

I know nothing about any lawsuits for parents to pursue, nor any reason for them to do so. In fact, we don't know much of anything yet.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 10:54 AM
Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team” in “the first 10 days” of June


In a news conference last week, CU Anschutz Medical Campus Graduate School Dean Barry Shur said Holmes dropped out of the CU Ph.D Neuroscience program on June 10th. "My understanding he has not been back on campus where the program is since that time," he said last week.


During the period when, sources say, Fenton contacted fellow BETA team members, Holmes did not do well on an oral presentation on June 7. It is also unclear whether Holmes could find a mentor to help him as required for continuing in the Ph.D program. On the same day, June 7, Holmes legally purchased an AR-15 rifle, according to ABC News

A whole lot of info in this article, including the same conflicting thoughts we are discussing here.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31324092/detail.html

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 10:57 AM
It’s not like it’s about power and or control. At its core, duty to warn it’s a clinical judgment issue. It is evaluative. It a professional obligation to involuntary commit an individual who poses a danger to self or anyone else The notion that the individual has to concretely come out and say I am going to kill someone day after tomorrow is not accurate. MI is far too complicated.
.
There are so many variables in making a determination to proceed:

Does he have a support system? Are there people around him that are aware of his illness?

Is he being threatening?
What is his medication compliance history? What is this history of violence? Has he been involuntarily committed before?
How often, and for how long has he previously been hospiilized? Is his behavior escalating?
How is he sleeping? Eating?
What does he report to you as it relates to his medications?
How much insight does the display about his illness? What typically has happened in the past when he stops his meds?
Is he coming in looking more and more disheveled?

If employed is his performance deteriorating.
In this case the school. Does know who he is. ?
Does he know where he is? Does he know what date it is? What are his feelings and thoughts about taking his medications?
What about financial ability to obtain his medications?


Has he been missing appointments more frequently? How is he communicating? Is his affect congruent (if you say someone passed away does he giggle etc.?)
Is he ruminating/obsessing over something?
Is he having difficulty staying on task, focusing? Is he being loud? How is he sitting in the chair?

Is he making eye contact? Is he sitting in chair or pacing/fidgety?
Does he appear agitated?
Are his feelings changing rapidly from feelings of sadness, to anger, to frustration, to confusion?
What does tell you he has been doing recently? When asked how does he describe what he has been feeling thinking?
How is his memory?

Is he taking his medication correctly?
What is he experiecing in terms of side effects?
Has he had a recent med change?

If committed before how does he feel about it? (Some like it its safe place).

Does he have a history of drinking or drug abuse? How long has he remained stable? Does he have transportation to get to the pharmacy?

Is he verbalizing any intention to take as medications?
What is his diagnosis history? How long has he suffered with mental illness?
Have there been any profound changes or stressors recently?

Basically, duty to warn isn’t just a one dimensioned notion. It is a clinical, professional, highly variable judgment call. Howevertypically when that determination is made, involuntary commitment usually occurs.

Law enforcement is very unlikely not to transport any individual that mental health professional has determined is in need of further evaluation.

It is not viewed as forcing some one into treatment. In fact, if there is some level of rapport, and executed with compassion and caring very often that patient will, at some level, find a level of comfort in being in a structured, safe, environment.

Invoking it is not taken lightly, however, it is the right thing to do, when the above mentioned variables form a compelling need to do so.

Finally, law enforcement transporting an individual to a hospital, at that point, ONLY means, another professionial will evaluate - look at it as double safety net.



It IS the law.

It’s the old adage better to be safe than sorry, and in my opinion, were all pretty sorry the last couple of weeks.

OneLostGrl
08-02-2012, 11:24 AM
Xanax gives you a high?

The many people I know on anti-depressants for either anxiety or depression never said anything about getting a high or craving more. In fact, they just didn't like them. The only mentioned psychological side effect is just not feeling up or down.

I could be wrong, but none of their medications contained opiods as Vicodin does. Or so I thought, maybe I'd better go look them up.

ETA: Okay, a couple are benzos which you can get a high from, most are classified SSRI, so, I don't think you get high and crave them, but they are addictive, I still don't know about a high on those. I'm still wondering why give someone Vicodin instead of one of the others, but it is moot since we are not sure he had Vicodin much less a prescription for it.


Girl, Benzo's were my drug of choice. I'd have passed up a Vicodin for a Benzo (pretty much any one of 'em) any day, all day. They treat two totally different things but both are highly addictive. I can't imagine any Doc giving someone Vicodin for anxiety, it's a pain pill.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Girl, Benzo's were my drug of choice. I'd have passed up a Vicodin for a Benzo (pretty much any one of 'em) any day, all day. They treat two totally different things but both are highly addictive. I can't imagine any Doc giving someone Vicodin for anxiety, it's a pain pill.

Thanks OLG, I knew you had more knowledge here on this topic than I do. I had to do some research and the benzos were eye opening for sure!

The part I bolded is my question. WTH??? We don't know if JH was prescribed these, but he "said" he had taken some, I think I recall a report that was looking into his prescriptions - don't quote me on that one though. However, in the doc thread, she has prescribed it before for headaches and anxiety. Seems a bit over the top to me. I'm hoping he did not have a scrip for them for anxiety.

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 11:50 AM
Vicoden is commonly prescribed by dentists,
maybe 5 pills following a procedure like wisdom teeth removal.
He could have just had them in his medicine cabinet &
figured I'd be a good time (last chance) to take 'em.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Uh, that depends on many things.

I know 30 days before my daughter turned 19, our insurance requested some information about her. Where she working...McD's....and where she went to school. Then they dropped her on her 19th birthday. The reason, b/c she had a job. It didn't matter that she was part time and going to school full time. Mcd's offers insurance. Expensive insurance. Didn't matter to our insurance company.

Now, in 2014, if she still doesn't have insurance, I can add her back on ours. That when the law comes into full effect.

The law for allowing any child up to 26 to stay in their parents insurance went into place June of 2011... I know this because my brother was able to get back on my Dad's insurance, even while working part time at a job he could have gotten expensive insurance through. Certain parts of the healthcare law went into place early, and that was one of them.

OneLostGrl
08-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Thanks OLG, I knew you had more knowledge here on this topic than I do. I had to do some research and the benzos were eye opening for sure!

The part I bolded is my question. WTH??? We don't know if JH was prescribed these, but he "said" he had taken some, I think I recall a report that was looking into his prescriptions - don't quote me on that one though. However, in the doc thread, she has prescribed it before for headaches and anxiety. Seems a bit over the top to me. I'm hoping he did not have a scrip for them for anxiety.

From what's being reported, I'm not too impressed with his supposed psychiatrist and if what's being reported is true I won't be all that surprised to hear she was mis-prescribing his meds. Sadly it happens more than people realize. But Vicodin for anxiety?! (For those who don't know me, I'm stating this as a psych patient not as a professional in any sense of the word)

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 12:09 PM
Another few questions if anyone knows the answers.

Did he have a prescription for the Vicodin he allegedly said he took?

If so, why would a 24 year old have Vicodin? If for anxiety, why not prescribe one of the many other non-addictive anti-anxiety meds that do not have as many negative side effects? Vicodin is a very serious drug!

I seriously doubt he was scripted Vicodin for anxiety.

He probably didn't even have a prescription for it, it's very easy to get on the street or from a friend.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 12:10 PM
Xanax gives you a high?

The many people I know on anti-depressants for either anxiety or depression never said anything about getting a high or craving more. In fact, they just didn't like them. The only mentioned psychological side effect is just not feeling up or down.

I could be wrong, but none of their medications contained opiods as Vicodin does. Or so I thought, maybe I'd better go look them up.

ETA: Okay, a couple are benzos which you can get a high from, most are classified SSRI, so, I don't think you get high and crave them, but they are addictive, I still don't know about a high on those. I'm still wondering why give someone Vicodin instead of one of the others, but it is moot since we are not sure he had Vicodin much less a prescription for it.

Yes, Xanax/Valium, etc give you a high and are highly addictive. In fact, withdrawal from Xanax or any other benzo is much more dangerous than withdrawal from an opiate (vicodin), it can give you seizures.

gitana1
08-02-2012, 12:18 PM
I seriously doubt he was scripted Vicodin for anxiety.

He probably didn't even have a prescription for it, it's very easy to get on the street or from a friend.

Bingo. Vicodin is NOT an anti-anxiety medication and is never prescribed for that. It's pain medication.

I have a friend who is a heroin addict. He's brilliant and kind and interesting but he has been battling addiction most of his life. He will use pills like vicodin when he's cycling back into drug usage. He can get them in five minutes, without a prescription. Almost anyone can.

prima.facie
08-02-2012, 12:34 PM
Yes, Xanax/Valium, etc give you a high and are highly addictive. In fact, withdrawal from Xanax or any other benzo is much more dangerous than withdrawal from an opiate (vicodin), it can give you seizures.

drugs/medications affect everyone differently...
i have anxiety issues - and have had them since i was a kid.
only until the past couple of years have i sought treatment for it.
ive taken xanax and it does NOT give me a high. it makes me very tired and "chilled out"...in fact it helps me sleep and helps me avoid the night anxiety i tend to get....it is also not habit forming for me....i dont have much of an addictive personality anyways.....

ive never done [illegal] drugs before....so my tollerance level for any meds is very low...so i take the lowest dose available....

Liz
08-02-2012, 12:36 PM
I seriously doubt he was scripted Vicodin for anxiety.

He probably didn't even have a prescription for it, it's very easy to get on the street or from a friend.

~bbm~ :what:

Some friends!! (I know what you're saying but still ... bad friends!) JMO

gitana1
08-02-2012, 12:37 PM
From what's being reported, I'm not too impressed with his supposed psychiatrist and if what's being reported is true I won't be all that surprised to hear she was mis-prescribing his meds. Sadly it happens more than people realize. But Vicodin for anxiety?! (For those who don't know me, I'm stating this as a psych patient not as a professional in any sense of the word)

I'm impressed with her. It looks like there was no threat that would enable her to call the police, yet she had the foresight and professionalism to realize that even in the absence of such threats, something may be seriously wrong. She then took measures to try to assess the shooter for threat, and began assembling the BETA team to do so. He quit the school at the same time and obviously, quit any treatment at that time as well. The BETA team and the school and the pscyh had no power once he took those measures. In the absence of a direct threat:

They could not call the police.
They could not force treatment.
They could not force an assessment.
They could not call his parents, or friends or landlord and describe his behavior.

What they could do is send him letters or leave messages urging he submit to assessment or treatment and offering help with finding new treatment providers. They could express their concern to him. That's it. And we have nothing to suggest they didn't do just that.

I read comments at the ends of articles about this case. There are tons of people shrieking that the school or Fenton are 100% responsible. That sentiment is often followed by, "someone has to be liable for such a tragedy! Fifty eight people were wounded and 12 died! Someone has to pay for that!"

I really think that is the main reason most are calling for blood in the absence of any info indicating that the school or Fenton failed to do all they could based on what they observed.

prima.facie
08-02-2012, 12:40 PM
~bbm~ :what:

Some friends!! (I know what you're saying but still ... bad friends!) JMO

oh its amazing what "friends" will do. lol
i have a friend who is bi-polar and extreme anxiety issues...

if im around her and a bit stressed out....her first answer is "i have something you can take!"....

:what:

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 12:44 PM
drugs/medications affect everyone differently...
i have anxiety issues - and have had them since i was a kid.
only until the past couple of years have i sought treatment for it.
ive taken xanax and it does NOT give me a high. it makes me very tired and "chilled out"...in fact it helps me sleep and helps me avoid the night anxiety i tend to get....it is also not habit forming for me....i dont have much of an addictive personality anyways.....

ive never done [illegal] drugs before....so my tollerance level for any meds is very low...so i take the lowest dose available....

If you take it every day, even without abusing it - your body will be addicted to it and you will have to titer off of it when you stop.

prima.facie
08-02-2012, 12:50 PM
If you take it every day, even without abusing it - your body will be addicted to it and you will have to titer off of it when you stop.

well of course...
however, it does not give everyone a high...it doesnt for me.
now ive taken percocet after surgeries....and THAT gives me a high....but xanax puts me to sleep....

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 12:59 PM
SNIPPED
In the absence of a direct threat:

They could not call the police.
They could not force treatment.
They could not force an assessment.
They could not call his parents, or friends or landlord and describe his behavior.

i agree that there was nothing the Dr could do,
unless he admitted to making bombs in his
apartment or buying guns specifically to kill people with.

The most she could do without this specific info
would be to ask police to make a 'welfare check'
on him, but he could simply not answer the door.
It's not a criminal matter, they won't pursue him after an attempted contact.

OneLostGrl
08-02-2012, 01:02 PM
drugs/medications affect everyone differently...
i have anxiety issues - and have had them since i was a kid.
only until the past couple of years have i sought treatment for it.
ive taken xanax and it does NOT give me a high. it makes me very tired and "chilled out"...in fact it helps me sleep and helps me avoid the night anxiety i tend to get....it is also not habit forming for me....i dont have much of an addictive personality anyways.....

ive never done [illegal] drugs before....so my tollerance level for any meds is very low...so i take the lowest dose available....

That "tired and chilled out" and making you sleep is in fact a high... it's the high you get from Benzo's. It's habit forming in that if you no longer had it you would no longer get chilled out and sleepy and would be once again full of that anxiety you speak of. So you need it to feel normal, to stop the anxiety and make it through the day or night.

I never did illegal drugs either, I just happened to have a parent who firmly believed in psych meds so I'd been on them from a young age and never even bothered with street drugs. I had a doctor who gave me Benzo's for an incredibly long period of time (8+ years) so the lowest dose stopped working.. and they had to keep upping my dose. The lowest dose doesn't work for very long... it will eventually stop putting the user to sleep.

Padua
08-02-2012, 01:04 PM
This may have already been posted.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/08/01/mtv-star-claims-alleged-aurora-theater-shooter-called-him-prior-to-massacre/

In an exclusive interview, Pimp My Ride’s Diggity Dave told KNX 1070’s Charles Feldman that a young man who called himself “James Holmes” phoned him in June about his upcoming film, “The Suffocator of Sins.”

Dave wrote, directed and stars in the forthcoming takeoff of the Batman movie, which shows a young vigilante Batman shooting down evil doers. Some have said the YouTube trailer resembles a crowded movie theater. He describes the film as a “very sick and dark twist of the Batman movies.”

OneLostGrl
08-02-2012, 01:06 PM
I'm impressed with her. It looks like there was no threat that would enable her to call the police, yet she had the foresight and professionalism to realize that even in the absence of such threats, something may be seriously wrong. She then took measures to try to assess the shooter for threat, and began assembling the BETA team to do so. He quit the school at the same time and obviously, quit any treatment at that time as well. The BETA team and the school and the pscyh had no power once he took those measures. In the absence of a direct threat:

They could not call the police.
They could not force treatment.
They could not force an assessment.
They could not call his parents, or friends or landlord and describe his behavior.

What they could do is send him letters or leave messages urging he submit to assessment or treatment and offering help with finding new treatment providers. They could express their concern to him. That's it. And we have nothing to suggest they didn't do just that.

I read comments at the ends of articles about this case. There are tons of people shrieking that the school or Fenton are 100% responsible. That sentiment is often followed by, "someone has to be liable for such a tragedy! Fifty eight people were wounded and 12 died! Someone has to pay for that!"

I really think that is the main reason most are calling for blood in the absence of any info indicating that the school or Fenton failed to do all they could based on what they observed.

I'm talking about the way she supposedly handed out drugs to employees, her spouse etc and didn't keep records. That just doesn't impress me. Again, IF it's true

February
08-02-2012, 01:12 PM
I think we are somewhat jumping a lot here ... we don't even know yet what Fenton learned why she think that JH could be dangerous to others that she had to talked to BETA Team on this.

Once we learn it then we can understand more why there is no need to call the cops during that time. But as the Media described "dangerous to others" , i do think this could be a threat already to injure others IMO

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 01:23 PM
I think we are somewhat jumping a lot here ... we don't even know yet what Fenton learned why she think that JH could be dangerous to others that she had to talked to BETA Team on this.

Once we learn it then we can understand more why there is no need to call the cops during that time. But as the Media described "dangerous to others" , i do think this could be a threat already to injure others IMO

exactly, thoughts about hurting people could be considered
dangerous to others, but it's not legally 'a danger to to others'
unless he admitted to a specific plan.
for instance, with reference to the 72 hour psychiatric hold,
if someone has 'suicidal ideation' but no specific method in mind,
most mental health professionals would not put a legal hold on a person.

February
08-02-2012, 01:39 PM
http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

Here is a copy of the Colorado Law in this Area: more on the link about the 72 hour hold.

27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section.

(2) Any individual may petition the court in the county in which the respondent resides or is physically present alleging that there is a person who appears to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, appears to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or appears to be gravely disabled and requesting that an evaluation of the person’s condition be made.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm talking about the way she supposedly handed out drugs to employees, her spouse etc and didn't keep records. That just doesn't impress me. Again, IF it's true

For me it's the accupuncture boob scam, and some mention of testing in other areas, along with the records.

I'm sure she handled this issue just fine, but being a doc and experimenting - in questionable areas - gives me the heebees. I wouldn't want to see her. Just saying.

If I'm going to a doc that specializes in any area, I want all of their studies and professional employment to also be in that area. Otherwise, they are just a g.p.

February
08-02-2012, 01:41 PM
Who can institute a “hold and treat” for involuntary mental health treatment?

Police

Physician (M.D.)

Licensed psychologist

Registered nurse (R.N.)

Licensed clinical social worker

Licensed counselor or marriage and family therapist with special training

National Park Ranger

A family member can also go to probate court to ask for a hold.

The law provides two types of Holds for Involuntary Treatment:

1) A 72-hour Hold and Treat – This enables a person to be held involuntarily for a period of 72 hours, or three days, for evaluation and treatment.

If symptoms are apparent in a brief evaluation by police and the person is unwilling to go to a professional, family members may petition the civil court system to order an evaluation.

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 01:57 PM
this, to me is the most important part to understand.
i've known MHP's who conduct such evaluations &
this part is their main priority.

An evaluator is responsible to determine the LEAST RESTRICTIVE CARE and best outcome for follow through. An evaluator’s license is on the line with his or her disposition decision.

I believe even if Holmes had an evaluation
earlier in July it wouldn't change anything.

February
08-02-2012, 02:04 PM
this, to me is the most important part to understand.
i've known MHP's who conduct such evaluations &
this part is their main priority.

An evaluator is responsible to determine the LEAST RESTRICTIVE CARE and best outcome for follow through. An evaluator’s license is on the line with his or her disposition decision.

I believe even if Holmes had an evaluation
earlier in July it wouldn't change anything.

sometimes an evaluation could end up deeper during that conversation and he could state "i purchase this and that"... and that could lead to LE possibly investigating his actual apartment and will at least check all his combat purchases. If that happened, things could possibly change... or not. IMO..

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 02:16 PM
I don't know how it varies State by State, but my teenaged brother simply told a friend "sometimes I feel so desperate that I want to end it", not even meaning it, and the following transpired:

Friend called police
Police showed up and took away my brother
Brother was admitted to ER
Brother had to wait for 6 hours to see a doctor and be evaluated
2 hour eval by Dr, then was released.

So both the police and the hospital were involved, and he wasn't even in treatment. So, he wasn't placed on a 72 hour hold or anything, but he was immediately assessed.

That's what I find kind of strange, she notified the internal team at the school that she was concerned, but nothing happened. But also, we don't have all the info yet, so this is total speculation.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I don't know how it varies State by State, but my teenaged brother simply told a friend "sometimes I feel so desperate that I want to end it", not even meaning it, and the following transpired:

Friend called police
Police showed up and took away my brother
Brother was admitted to ER
Brother had to wait for 6 hours to see a doctor and be evaluated
2 hour eval by Dr, then was released.

So both the police and the hospital were involved, and he wasn't even in treatment. So, he wasn't placed on a 72 hour hold or anything, but he was immediately assessed.

That's what I find kind of strange, she notified the internal team at the school that she was concerned, but nothing happened. But also, we don't have all the info yet, so this is total speculation.

Same thing happens here news. If you are not acting bizarrely, you can understand and answer the doc, you tell them you are okay and not going to kill yourself or anyone else, you are out of there as soon as the doc stands up. Nothing they can do if you are acting normally, can function, can answer normally.

February
08-02-2012, 02:44 PM
His psychiatrist, Dr. Lynne Fenton, told her colleagues that Holmes could be a danger to others, according to KMGH investigative reporter John Ferrugia.

Members of the university's threat assessment team were even informed of the concerns, but the school never intervened. School officials also failed to contact the Aurora Police Department.

Holmes reportedly bought an AR-15 assault rifle on June 7, the same day he failed a preliminary oral exam that was part of the doctoral neuroscience program.

"It was in that afternoon that we know that he certainly was - or around that period - he was certainly talking to his psychiatrist, who was Dr. Lynne Fenton," Ferrugia said. "Now, we don't know what those conversations were, but we know during that period, which seemed to be a very high-stress period for him, something that he said to his psychiatrist caused her to contact the University of Colorado threat assessment team."

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/19180488/report-psychiatrist-voiced-concerns-about-holmes-before-shooting

i.b.nora
08-02-2012, 03:02 PM
John Ferrugia's website is here:

http://muckrack.com/johnferrugia7

Apparently he is reporting on this on Denver TV later today

SmoothOperator
08-02-2012, 03:34 PM
Regarding Dr. Fenton.. I have deep compassion for this woman.. Very deep.. I think it goes without saying that life and her career as she knows it is OVER.. All the blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into this woman's life and career are ending in such a traumatic way.. Believe me I know that in comparison to the victims/survivors of the physical injuries from the shooter that Fentons trauma pales in comparison.. But nonetheless it is still a very raw, painful reality for this woman and all for what????.. All for having the friggin unlucky circumstance of having crossed paths with a real POS(MI or not this man has ruined more lives than people can even begin to realize).. And at no fault of their own..

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with Fenton now?? I know that many were upset in their thinking that Fenton was treating the shooter and had negligently failed to notice what in some opinions were an obvious mental health decline..thereby she bore some very real responsibility for the end result that the shooter carried out..

Well, now we know that this Dr did do her duty in that she somehow became aware of "something"(and the how that came about and the what exactly "it" was *factors are still unknown, CRITICAL&IMPORTANT variables) that she felt needed to be reported.. And that's exactly what Fenton did in bringing it before the BETA group..

So, IMO what is most important here that is still missing and unknown is what it was that led to Fenton making the decision to report the shooter to BETA.. IMO until we know the circumstance no one IMO has any right to even question this dr's actions.. She did the right thing as far as procedures and in legally speaking..

This shooter counteracted her approach by then immediately moving to officially withdraw from the program and the school... Is this not understood???

Because IMO it shows even more very methodical and well thought out thought processes and decisions made by the shooter in months leading up to.. Whatever it was that he flubbed up which called attention to him and definitely brought about unwanted attention and scrutiny which was definitely a threat to the shooters extremely premeditated mass murder plan.. He realized whatever it was that Fenton had caught on to, or that he blurted out to her.. He quickly realized his major err and knew his entire murderous manifesto was in real danger of possibly being thwarted by Fentons awareness and paying attention to this student..

Fenton does the right thing by going to the BETA group and bringing this students name to their attention as well as likely statements, actions, or behaviors that she had witnessed(again those critical details remain unknown).. So, there you have the dr operating ethically and legally responsible..

The shooter must counteract to avoid his master plan from being thwarted.. He made his move which was in essence the perfect counteract to Dr Fentons alerting on him to BETA..
He shuts down the issue abruptly and with finality.. Officially and permanently withdrawing himself from the program, and the school as a whole, including removing himself physically from even having access to the campus..

His counteract IMO just further cements that this individual was not in an out of control spiraling madness.. Not in the least, but rather when fully capable and aware of his either misstating something that brought UNWANTED attention to himself.. Or blurting out or any other behavior or action that in any way whatsoever brought about UNWANTED ATTENTION to him by Fenton.. This man was able to thoroughly think through what the repercussions could/would be and what was the best route to take to counteract this err on his part.. And damn it he not only carefully thought out the best way to counteract.. He friggin executed it perfectly and with a swiftness brought the issue immediately to a halt BEFORE ANY FURTHER DAMAGE OR ATTENTION WAS BROUGHT TO HIM AND TO HIS MURDEROUS PLANS!!

This man is cold, calculating, and damn it he even knew how to counteract any obstacle or problem that arose during the planning and execution of his task.. Thorough, methodical.. And NOT AT ALL debilitatingly mentally ill..*

Dr. Fenton is absolutely another victim, another casualty of this POS master plan that damn it Dr Fenton quickly became an issue and posed a very real threat.. An obstacle and potentially even much more.. The shooter methodically counteracted and thereby diffused what could have very easily become the enemy that thwarted this narcissistic murderer.. The POS is not in the least bit mentally Ill to a level that in any way whatsoever even begins to matter in a court of criminal law..

All jmo..

broomboys
08-02-2012, 03:37 PM
Could Holmes have been obsessed with his doctor?

Why else would he send the notebook/ package?

jjenny
08-02-2012, 03:50 PM
I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 03:53 PM
Could Holmes have been obsessed with his doctor?

Why else would he send the notebook/ package?

Could be.

I think he was very angry with her about something, hence stick figure package.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 03:55 PM
I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.

If he told her specifically that was his plan, she could have called police. How far that would have gotten I have no idea.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Could be.

I think he was very angry with her about something, hence stick figure package.

Or he could be proud of his accomplishments.

rollinginit
08-02-2012, 03:58 PM
hmmmm, that is strange. I don't know where you live or who your insurance company is, but that law went into effect in sept of 2010. my son has been back on our insurance for almost a year, we only had to wait for our enrollment period and then put him back on. He is not a student etc...he has a friend who is married and also was able to be put back on his parents insurance,,,,i think your insurance company is not following the law. I would call them asap. I know that you said your daughter works for mc'ds part time which means she is not eligible for insurance through them, so she should be eligible under yours....good luck

My insurance is called a "grandfather" plan. I didn't understand it either, but I did read the law where grandfather plans were exempt.


Mcd does offer insurance for part time or full time if you've been with them over a year.

I know my daughter school, OSU, requires her to have some insurance, if she doesn't she has to take theirs.

broomboys
08-02-2012, 04:01 PM
In her photos, it also looks like Fenton has had a rather badly botched Blepharoplasty (eye lid surgery)....anyone else spot that?

jjenny
08-02-2012, 04:03 PM
That photo is taken outside and she is squinting her eyes, so I don't think you can say anything about her eyelids.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 04:07 PM
Bingo. Vicodin is NOT an anti-anxiety medication and is never prescribed for that. It's pain medication.

I have a friend who is a heroin addict. He's brilliant and kind and interesting but he has been battling addiction most of his life. He will use pills like vicodin when he's cycling back into drug usage. He can get them in five minutes, without a prescription. Almost anyone can.

It is prescribed for pain. But do a google search. It appears to me a lot of people using it for social anxiety. But if somebody wants a prescription they might have to claim they get headaches/migranes, etc. And I don't think there is any way to check if somebody actually has a headache except what they tell the doctor.

rollinginit
08-02-2012, 04:13 PM
Oh, and here is a link about the 19+ kids and talks about the grandfather plan. Also list the exemptions on the new laws.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/features/rights/grandfathered-plans/index.html

rollinginit
08-02-2012, 04:16 PM
I have friends that have been addicted to xanax, vicodin, and ADD (yes, that medication people give to kids)

People can even get addicted to huffing gas, paint thinner, or compresed air. There was teen that was suspend from school for sniffing liquid paper.

orora
08-02-2012, 04:21 PM
If Homes did have a previous MI and it was known diagnosed and recorded prior to Fenton, and.. Fenton initially had concerns for others safety and had initiated a procedure to investigate; even if that had been followed through, could anything have led to the apartment being searched?

This is very close to where Columbine occured and if there were or should have been a procedure in place to pre-empt this sort of thing, there was no better more appropriate setting to test what was learned from Columbine.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:30 PM
I seriously doubt he was scripted Vicodin for anxiety.

He probably didn't even have a prescription for it, it's very easy to get on the street or from a friend.
Speculation alert ! $$$$ I have pondered if he was dealing?

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:37 PM
She could report him to police if she knew about serious threat toward specific person or persons. We don't know if she knew anything like that.
She knew plenty -- she attempted to get BETA involved- forget that paperwork silliness ya call 911 -- identify your credential, tell the operator you have been treating him, and are requesting transport to the nearest psyc hospital for further eval.

LE will not mess with this -

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Speculation alert ! $$$$ I have pondered if he was dealing?

I highly doubt it.

He probably had some leftover from a dental procedure or something.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 04:39 PM
She knew plenty -- she attempted to get BETA involved- forget that paperwork silliness ya call 911 -- identify your credential, tell the operator you have been treating him, and are requesting transport to the nearest psyc hospital for further eval.

LE will not mess with this -

Considering forgetting that "paperwork silliness" almost cost her her license in the past, I don't think she would find that to be a very good idea.

We have no idea WHAT exactly he said to her yet. If he said "I am going to kill a bunch of people" yes, she should have called the police.

If he was just acting super strange and stressed? She had no reason to call, and nothing would have happened if she did.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:41 PM
From what's being reported, I'm not too impressed with his supposed psychiatrist and if what's being reported is true I won't be all that surprised to hear she was mis-prescribing his meds. Sadly it happens more than people realize. But Vicodin for anxiety?! (For those who don't know me, I'm stating this as a psych patient not as a professional in any sense of the word)
Yes yes I am being sarcastic -- oh, she was writing RX's for herself, family and friends for benzos narcotics,

, pls talk about some ethical problems...............ugh

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:45 PM
For what? Not being able to tell the future? Not continuing to treat an adult student who voluntarily left the program and didn't seek further treatment? If the psychiatrist would have called the police (or whatever it is you expect them to have done), nothing would have happened. Nobody saw this coming.
Oh, in my heart , I totally beleive, and have all alongg believe that if she intervened she would have thrown his timetable off -- sneak preview of the motion picture ... I think , the time frames for the Joker were serious for him.............

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Sure she did she verbilized her concerns to colleagues for weeks .............

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:49 PM
I'm impressed with her. It looks like there was no threat that would enable her to call the police, yet she had the foresight and professionalism to realize that even in the absence of such threats, something may be seriously wrong. She then took measures to try to assess the shooter for threat, and began assembling the BETA team to do so. He quit the school at the same time and obviously, quit any treatment at that time as well. The BETA team and the school and the pscyh had no power once he took those measures. In the absence of a direct threat:

They could not call the police.
They could not force treatment.
They could not force an assessment.
They could not call his parents, or friends or landlord and describe his behavior.

What they could do is send him letters or leave messages urging he submit to assessment or treatment and offering help with finding new treatment providers. They could express their concern to him. That's it. And we have nothing to suggest they didn't do just that.

I read comments at the ends of articles about this case. There are tons of people shrieking that the school or Fenton are 100% responsible. That sentiment is often followed by, "someone has to be liable for such a tragedy! Fifty eight people were wounded and 12 died! Someone has to pay for that!"

I really think that is the main reason most are calling for blood in the absence of any info indicating that the school or Fenton failed to do all they could based on what they observed.
BETA team and the school and the pscyh had no power


its not about power - its about your ethical obligations and being a caring person...........

orora
08-02-2012, 04:50 PM
Passing the buck!
From an earlier news report-
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31324092/detail.html


ABC News learned Fenton was a key member in setting up BETA in 2010, and she is currently one of the contacts for anyone who has concerns about an on-campus threat. A University of Colorado spokeswoman acknowledged that Fenton is one of several trained CU contacts who can convene the team in consultation with the chairman.


“Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team” in “the first 10 days” of June but it “never came together” because in the period Fenton was having conversations with team members, James Holmes began the process of dropping out of school, a source said.

In a news conference last week, CU Anschutz Medical Campus Graduate School Dean Barry Shur said Holmes dropped out of the CU Ph.D Neuroscience program on June 10.

"My understanding, he has not been back on campus where the program is since that time," he said last week.

Holmes lost his access to secure areas of the school June 12, according to the CU spokeswoman.

Sources said when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team “had no control over him."

Since then the university has gone into damage control almost as if they had initially dropped the ball deliberately and were happy to just let the danger move on elsewhere. They had options imo.

Given past school shootings, triggering and directing unstable student animosity back onto ones self may not be a good thing to do. Did that play a role in the decision to contain information, handle it internally, and keep silent the danger?

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 04:50 PM
Yes yes I am being sarcastic -- oh, she was writing RX's for herself, family and friends for benzos narcotics,

, pls talk about some ethical problems...............ugh

She wrote a script for hay fever meds for her husband

Took 4 xanax when her mother was dying from the sample cabinet

Scripted her employee 4 xanax when she needed it for a flight

Nothing really super major there. The only problem was that she didn't keep medical records indicating the scripts were written. When I worked for a doctor, he'd give us antibiotics and cough medicine from the sample cabinet all the time.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:51 PM
They could not force treatment.
At this level of acuity it is not about treatment, it is about safety..................

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Passing the buck!
From an earlier news report-
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31324092/detail.html

Since then the university has gone into damage control almost as if they had initially dropped the ball deliberately and were happy to just let the danger move on elsewhere. They had options imo.

Given past school shootings, triggering and directing unstable student animosity back onto ones self may not be a good thing to do. Did that play a role in the decision to contain information, handle it internally, and keep silent the danger?

This will 100% depend on why she thought he was a threat. I wonder if it will ever come out.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 04:54 PM
They could not force treatment.
At this level of acuity it is not about treatment, it is about safety..................

Unless James Holmes told her specifically "I am going to kill people" or "I am going to kill myself", there is nothing that could have been done

Now, if he said either of those things, they'll have some major explaining to do about not altering the police.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:55 PM
I'm talking about the way she supposedly handed out drugs to employees, her spouse etc and didn't keep records. That just doesn't impress me. Again, IF it's true
Its true her board sanctioned her evidently...............

orora
08-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Damage control, forbidding faculty to speak on the subject, gag orders etc.. May not come out easily but we have to believe the truth with eventually come out. Look the damage..

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't know how it varies State by State, but my teenaged brother simply told a friend "sometimes I feel so desperate that I want to end it", not even meaning it, and the following transpired:

Friend called police
Police showed up and took away my brother
Brother was admitted to ER
Brother had to wait for 6 hours to see a doctor and be evaluated
2 hour eval by Dr, then was released.

So both the police and the hospital were involved, and he wasn't even in treatment. So, he wasn't placed on a 72 hour hold or anything, but he was immediately assessed.

That's what I find kind of strange, she notified the internal team at the school that she was concerned, but nothing happened. But also, we don't have all the info yet, so this is total speculation.
but was your family memeber high functioning wherein he could say he was only talking, wherein , IMO, holmes overt behaviors would have made his verbal utterances meaningless - his behaviors were IMO, psycotic or delsusionial

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 05:05 PM
but was your family memeber high functioning wherein he could say he was only talking, wherein , IMO, holmes overt behaviors would have made his verbal utterances meaningless - his behaviors were IMO, psycotic or delsusionial

He was very shy and non verbal and always has been.

We have no idea if he was acting that way prior, and even if he was, if he was not a threat to himself or others, they would immediately release him.

Being crazy isn't a crime.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 05:05 PM
Nothing they can do if you are acting normally, can function, can answer normally.
__________________
I just do not think he was
acting normally, (buying 6000 rounds) can function,(failing orals / can answer normally.(telling LE upon their arrival he is joker)
__________________

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 05:11 PM
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police

not only can she, it is her ethical obligation to do so.................

i.b.nora
08-02-2012, 05:14 PM
but was your family memeber high functioning wherein he could say he was only talking, wherein , IMO, holmes overt behaviors would have made his verbal utterances meaningless - his behaviors were IMO, psycotic or delsusionial
Can you cite specifically which behaviors of his, prior to his dropping out of the program, we're psychotic or delusional, in your opinion?

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 05:14 PM
but was your family memeber high functioning wherein he could say he was only talking, wherein , IMO, holmes overt behaviors would have made his verbal utterances meaningless - his behaviors were IMO, psycotic or delsusionial

his behavior behind closed doors (his apartment & his mind)
were delusional & psychotic.
IMO he is intelligent enough to realize that others would
not appreciate his ideas & that they could get him in trouble
before he had the opportunity to PROVE his delusional point,
which is what he accomplished in theater 9.
(in his delusional mind)

21merc7
08-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Nothing they can do if you are acting normally, can function, can answer normally.
__________________
I just do not think he was
acting normally, (buying 6000 rounds) can function,(failing orals / can answer normally.(telling LE upon their arrival he is joker)
__________________

No one knew that ahead of time, can't green warrant on something you don't know. Even if they did, it is not illegal, so there would be no search warrant granted to find out. You own as much of that stuff as you want, fail your tests, and still it is not illegal.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Nothing they can do if you are acting normally, can function, can answer normally.
__________________
I just do not think he was
acting normally, (buying 6000 rounds) can function,(failing orals / can answer normally.(telling LE upon their arrival he is joker)
__________________

But it's not illegal to do any of that at all.

You can even be acting crazy, they can't lock you up for that.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police

not only can she, it is her ethical obligation to do so.................

No, she can't. She would lose her license.

Liz
08-02-2012, 05:37 PM
Sources did not know what Holmes told Fenton that sparked her concern.

“It takes more than just statements,” said one source, explaining that Holmes would have had to tell Fenton “something specific" before she would have to report it to law enforcement.

“He would have to tell her he had taken steps to make it happen,” said another source.

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/dr-lynne-fenton-james-holmes-court-case-psychiatrist-called-threat-team-before-aurora-shooting#ixzz22QTFsQbl

Another quote from another source, Dr. Keith Ablow:

However, First noted that it can sometimes be difficult to determine whether or not something a patient says in confidence is a significant danger or if it’s just expressing thoughts that they can’t say to anyone else.

“If a patient has a fantasy, then you want to encourage people to tell you your inner most thoughts,” First said. “It’s important to allow that for the therapeutic relationship to function…. If someone tells you something specific, there’s more than obligation to tell someone. But people say crazy things all the time. There’s a judgment call on the psychiatrist’s part – is this something that should be taken seriously?”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/07/25/packaged-warning-psychiatrist-protocol-when-receiving-threats-from-patients/#ixzz22QWtfsQa


It would greatly help us here if we were able to find out just what JH told the doctor. Unfortunately, that won't be happening for quite some time.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 05:37 PM
For those interested, I've posted an excerpt from Colorado's statute nre "duty to warn" along with a case regarding issues of civil liability on the thread, "Mental Illness, Criminality and the Legal Process" ( link )

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 06:05 PM
I'm considering all angles, and really don't know what to think at this point.

Just wonder if JH was a MI poser just to go on with his genius plan and find a way to shift some damage onto the school and his doctor. He knew more than the average person about MI and knew once he dropped out of school they couldn't pursue him. It really upsets me to hear his doctor could do nothing or did nothing but discuss this with a team, as their hands were tied. How many days was it discussed?

Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

zvzvzv
08-02-2012, 06:11 PM
SNIP
Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

quite a few of us are.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 06:13 PM
I'm considering all angles, and really don't know what to think at this point.

Just wonder if JH was a MI poser just to go on with his genius plan and find a way to shift some damage onto the school and his doctor. He knew more than the average person about MI and knew once he dropped out of school they couldn't pursue him. It really upsets me to hear his doctor could do nothing or did nothing but discuss this with a team, as their hands were tied. How many days was it discussed?

Are some of you saying his doctor couldn't do one darn thing to help prevent this?

We don't know any more than you do Curious. We don't know how long it was talked about. We don't know what made the Doc discuss him in the first place, so we don't know if anything could be done.

If we find out she knew a lot, then I think we will be shocked at a team not doing anything, and the doc/school/team members will have some big troubles coming.

If we find out she just had a feeling or he was just having a childish tantrum, then we will know she couldn't do anything.

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 06:29 PM
Thanks everyone for all the good postings.

Are there any exceptions to the "Direct Threat" rule? Can a combination of things said in a session be pieced together to conclude it's a threat? I got a feeling though that the answer is no.

February
08-02-2012, 06:48 PM
No, she can't. She would lose her license.

Yes she can call the Police on JH.
It is always the discretion of the Psychiatrist to detect if calling the cops is needed. They always have what you call a "judgement call" . If her words is really - JH is danger to others , then she should just call LE for that 72 hours evaluation hold... but then again , this will give us another question - how did we know she didnt call or she call LE for that?

These questions are endless :)

Here is a copy of the Colorado Law in this Area: more on the link about the 72 hour hold.

27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section.

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

February
08-02-2012, 07:04 PM
If you actually analyze it and assume more , she could have lose her license more for talking to Beta TEAM if she divulge informations on JH's medical records to them ( specially if JH is actually no longer a student there at that time )

Bear in mind that Fenton has 2 roles here. She as his paid psychiatrist ( being paid by JH's student health insurance - this is not FREE from the school, JH pay for this separately) and She as a faculty member of this school.

ALL IMO!


http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/student-health/insurance/student-plans/Pages/Psychotherapy.aspx
PSYCHOTHERAPY
Anschutz Medical Campus Student Health

The University of Colorado Denver Department of Psychiatry has contracted with certain providers for psychiatric services (Select Providers). This service is completely confidential. If you are enrolled in the student insurance, benefits are available at 100%, with no deductible, to $80 per session, limit 20 sessions unless diagnosed with a biologically based mental illness and certain specified Mental Disorders as mandated by Colorado law. For further information on these benefits contact the Student Insurance Office.

To schedule an appointment on:

Appointment Day Contact Name
Phone

Monday and Tuesdays Janice Shire, NP
Wednesdays Lynne Fenton, MD
Thursdays and Fridays Margaret Roath, LCSW
You may also call the new central number for the Mental Health center at 303-724-4716.

songline
08-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Ah, okay, then I misread the school policy regarding 6 more months.

I still think the Docs there would have helped him until he found a Doc, and even helped him find one, if he chose to see one.

Clearly, he had other plans, and did not want to see a Doc. MOOOOO

Does not begine to matter...They can hopitalize someone against their will.

SmoothOperator
08-02-2012, 07:18 PM
I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.
And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo

love_puddle
08-02-2012, 07:21 PM
Sorry if it has been mentioned before, as far as meds go, he could very possibly have been prescribed seroquel as well as other meds.

songline
08-02-2012, 07:21 PM
Hey Songline, what is your legal basis for stating that this psychiatrist had the power to commit him to a hospital against his will?

In my experience, local police make the decision whether they will take a person to the hospital. If they do, once there, hospital psychs determine whether they will keep a person there, against there will.

The only power the treating psychiatrist has is to report direct threats of harm to the authorities. And if there are no such direct threats, then she can say nothing. So can you tell me your legal basis for concluding this psych had the power to do this?

Also, if she communicated her concerns to the rest of the BETA team, that means they were trying to set up a voluntary assessment. As I have repeated several times, that would be wholly unnecessary if a direct threat had been made. Instead, it sounds like this guy may have been exhibiting bizarre behavior that seriously concerned the psychiatrist but that did not rise to the level of reportable behavior.

Do you doubt what I am saying? Do you believe that a direct threat was made and communicated by Fenton to a whole team of mental health professionals and not one of them called the authorities? Or do you believe that a treating mental health professional has the unilateral authority to commit a patient against their will, in the absence of a direct threat of harm? If so, what is your legal basis for saying this?

Thanks in advance, friend. I'm seriously trying to understand!!

P.S. Glad to see someone else is up. I'm having serious insomnia!!!

This is what I believe - you can see dangerouse behaviour more then 5 weeks before a mass killing.
The spiroling down doe snot happen in an hour, it is not a ball tha is falling soen the stairs. Spirolling to that degree takes time.

_________________Snip from above link
The Denver Post reported that Fenton raised her concerns about Holmes with the university's Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team in early June. Denver's KMGH-TV, also citing unnamed sources, said school officials did not contact Aurora police before the shooting and that no action was taken because Holmes was in the process of dropping out of school.
__________________

I do not believe that they had no clues to take him in involuntary.
I just DO NOT.
If I was JH mom I would have then out of business.
the nature of that type of school should know better than anyone
right from wrong.
I would not want another child harmed because they are more then likely
not caring just because he was dropping out :what:
NOT BUYING IT.

I balm only him for what has hap
NO he did not spiral in the last month …no way it takes a while.
I balm the school for not doing what I would expect as a mom from that type of a school.

OK we are not supposed to blam the school.
But as A mom I would sue thier azz off.

February
08-02-2012, 07:25 PM
Sorry if it has been mentioned before, as far as meds go, he could very possibly have been prescribed seroquel as well as other meds.

What made you say that? I mean of all thousands of these drugs, you mentioned seroquel :)
Please enlighten us about seroquel , ill google too but it will be nice to hear from you too ;)

songline
08-02-2012, 07:28 PM
Thanks everyone for all the good postings.

Are there any exceptions to the "Direct Threat" rule? Can a combination of things said in a session be pieced together to conclude it's a threat? I got a feeling though that the answer is no.


The answer is yes.
A direct threat is not required, EXAMPLE: self mutilation is not a direct threat some of them pull their hair out, they cut themselves....attempt suicide. Just to mention 2 out of hundreds of other ways you can hospitalize against their will. IF THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEMSELVS OR OTHERS - you don’t take any chances you hospitalize.

We do not know why his physiatrist was alarmed by his behavior. BUT SHE WAS ALARMED.

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 07:31 PM
Then, why didn't his doctor call the police? Sorry, I think I missed the reason why she wouldn't want to do that. Would that make her subject to being sued? I'm in no way an expert, so bear with me please.

songline
08-02-2012, 07:32 PM
And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo

IMHO if the school did not have anything to worry about they SURE AS heck buttoned up their mouths instantly.

something stinks so bad my stomach is turning.

love_puddle
08-02-2012, 07:32 PM
It's used primarily to treat bipolar depression. It is used a lot for anxiety. Have met several people who have been prescribed it. I take it for that reason.

February
08-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Then, why didn't his doctor call the police? Sorry, I think I missed the reason why she wouldn't want to do that. Would that make her subject to being sued? I'm in no way an expert, so bear with me please.

we dont know too if she called or she didnt call LE :)

gitana1
08-02-2012, 07:41 PM
I don't know what she knew, if anything, but I am rather curious about one issue.
She can break doctor patient confidentiality and report him to the police if she knew about a serious threat to specific person or persons. She can also contact these persons directly. But with a plan to shoot up movie theater, the victims are not specific persons.
So, she can not contact them directly.
Can she still break doctor patient confidentiality and call police? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not saying she knew anything about his plans.

Yes. Stating he has plans to murder people at a theater would constitute
a direct threat even if the identity of those he planned to murder was unknown.


This will 100% depend on why she thought he was a threat. I wonder if it will ever come out.

It will come out if there are lawsuits.


Unless [THE SHOOTER] told her specifically "I am going to kill people" or "I am going to kill myself", there is nothing that could have been done

Now, if he said either of those things, they'll have some major explaining to do about not altering the police.

Respectfully redacted by me.

So there are two different things we are talking about here. One is Fenton's ability and duty to contact the police and warn them of an imminent threat. If she received a direct threat of harm from the shooter and did not report it, and he acted on that threat, she opens up herself to liability. However, if he makes statements that concern her that amount to less than a direct threat and she contacts the police, she opens herself up to a breach of confidentiality and a lawsuit.

The second thing we are talking about is the ability to compel treatment. Earlier, I was stating that only the police can hold a person and then the ER makes the decision whether they can be held for 72 hours. Either you or another poster posted links that various persons other than the police can institute a psych hold, including
Physician (M.D.) Licensed psychologist
Registered nurse (R.N.)
Licensed clinical social worker
Licensed counselor or marriage and family therapist with special training
National Park Ranger

But, that is not very clear to me. I would need to read the statute. It makes sense that the police and/or park rangers could detain and transport someone for a psych hold but otherwise, if someone starts having a psychotic break in a counselor's office or doctor's office, they call the police who then detain the person. I do not believe they have the power to detain the person themselves (except to restrain a person from harming themselves or others).

After that, the patient is brought to the ER or mental health facility where yes, it makes sense that a nurse, or doctor or psychiatrist or psychologist or LCSW who is working at the hospital, or in conjunction with them, can place a hold on patient.

It does not, however, make sense that a treating psychiatrist or psychologist can issue a hold in their office. It seems the hold order must be made in the context of an emergency intake assessment at a hospital or mental health in patient facility.

But we need to know this for sure because even in the absence of a direct threat, the law someone posted allows someone to be held for an involuntary 72 hour mental health hold and psych assessment, if they are deemed gravely disabled (incapable of caring for themselves).

This is important to the debate as to whether those surrounding the shooter failed in any responsibility they may have had.

At this point, I see no indication of any such failure. But, time will tell.

February
08-02-2012, 07:41 PM
something to think again :


Campus police, whose officers participate in the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, have said they had no contact with Holmes. Other team members reached in recent days declined to discuss Holmes.

so are these campus police/University police also part of LE ?

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/colorado-shooting-suspect-was-seeing-psychiatrist-before/cbe629769f38fde555ff50c55141b857

The University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus Police Department strives to provide a safe and secure campus environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Every police officer is certified in the State of Colorado as a Level One Peace Officer, which gives them full police arrest and enforcement powers
They are complemented by non-sworn, unarmed uniformed security officers. Police dispatchers provide coverage 24/7, year round, to campus facilities located at the Anschutz Medical Campus in Aurora
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/Pages/UniversityPolice.aspx

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 07:44 PM
we dont know too if she called or she didnt call LE :)

Would she be subject to being sued though if she called the police? I realize the timing of this and what was said to the doctor is most important. Keep thinking the doctor knew he was going to do something, and didn't even protect herself by doing enough. I think she probably just hoped he'd go away, wherever, bye-bye nice to know you. A lax stance perhaps.

Liz
08-02-2012, 07:51 PM
If you actually analyze it and assume more , she could have lose her license more for talking to Beta TEAM if she divulge informations on JH's medical records to them ( specially if JH is actually no longer a student there at that time )

Bear in mind that Fenton has 2 roles here. She as his paid psychiatrist ( being paid by JH's student health insurance - this is not FREE from the school, JH pay for this separately) and She as a faculty member of this school.

ALL IMO!
~respectfully snipped~


Another role:

"Fenton, who is a principal member of the BETA team, discussed Holmes’ behavior in separate conversations with other team members in early June, six weeks before the shooting."

Source: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/02/accused-theater-shooters-psychiatrist-warned-colleagues-of-possible-danger/#ixzz22R0qs3Vd


Could it be that the doctor was trying to juggle too many balls? :waitasec:

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 07:52 PM
gitana1, thanks for that part of your post that says,

"However, if he makes statements that concern her that amount to less than a direct threat and she contacts the police, she opens herself up to a breach of confidentiality and a lawsuit."

February
08-02-2012, 07:54 PM
Would she be subject to being sued though if she called the police? I realize the timing of this and what was said to the doctor is most important. Keep thinking the doctor knew he going to do something, and didn't even protect herself by doing enough. I think she probably just hoped he'd go away, wherever, bye-bye nice to know you. A lax stance perhaps.

IMO who will actually sue her? JH ? Since we know already that he purchased his weapons and ammunitions since May 2012 , i doubt that he will even sue her IMO. This guy made already a plan before June 2012 IMO

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 08:12 PM
would have absolutely NOT have broken confidentiality
fufilling duty to warn obligations is like
I. Duty to warn
a. confidentiality
b. priviledged communication

Duty is over confidentiality! It is number one with a bullet , and she attempted but dropped the ball with a bloated system

Millions of practioniers are in private practice, they have no "teams" they need to mess with, they call LE ....................

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 08:22 PM
something to think again :


Campus police, whose officers participate in the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, have said they had no contact with Holmes. Other team members reached in recent days declined to discuss Holmes.

so are these campus police/University police also part of LE ?

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/colorado-shooting-suspect-was-seeing-psychiatrist-before/cbe629769f38fde555ff50c55141b857

The University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus Police Department strives to provide a safe and secure campus environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors.
Every police officer is certified in the State of Colorado as a Level One Peace Officer, which gives them full police arrest and enforcement powers
They are complemented by non-sworn, unarmed uniformed security officers. Police dispatchers provide coverage 24/7, year round, to campus facilities located at the Anschutz Medical Campus in Aurora
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/Pages/UniversityPolice.aspx

Second time I read this article, and it still bugs me. I absolutely find the touting of the school caring, and it's demand of students almost distasteful. I can't help but sense they hoped to cover up something until that notebook arrived. JMO, just saying.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 08:26 PM
It is all based on the credential of the provider. The setting does not matter. When a credentialed person feels the need for the client to be further evaluated for invol commimment it IS intiated by that professionial. In that instance LE is basically the taxi.

If your neighbor called LE and said you needed to be commited THEN LE , on scene would make a determination regarding transport.

ITs logical -- who is more qualified to determine if further eval is necc mental health provider or LE.

Its a training thing ....

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 08:31 PM
See I think where the confusion is , is the folks that are actually doing the committing (formal) are the folks in the hospital. THe intiating order , is only stating that an evaluation MUST be undertaken by a in-patient facility.

BUT, I do not know of one instance wherein the in -patient team did not concur with the outpatient provider and commit.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 08:32 PM
have helped him until he found a Doc

BY law you must, otherwise it is abandoment.

Padua
08-02-2012, 08:33 PM
Since we our on the blame game train. What about the government?

Civil commitment is necessary form of preventative detention. But the entire US legal and constitutional system is organized to protect people from preventive detention.

Unless he made and confirmed a threat to commit a violent act, he would not be commited.

Call 911? Have him evaluated? The doctors can only take his word. And his word may have been "I'm fine." They wouldn't have access to his gun purchases, bomb planning, etc.

She was his doctor, she should know. Maybe she did. Maybe she insisted a judge strip away his constitutional right of freedom and the judge denied.

It's scary to think one phone call can get a person stripped away of his or her rights to freedom.

I think he is scary and a danger but, really, I hate to think where this may snowball when people are saying - just call the cops, they'll put him away against his will.

21merc7
08-02-2012, 08:38 PM
IMO who will actually sue her? JH ? Since we know already that he purchased his weapons and ammunitions since May 2012 , i doubt that he will even sue her IMO. This guy made already a plan before June 2012 IMO

I think the plan started before May.

Do I think JH could sue her? Sure, inmates sue all of the time. Doesn't mean it would work, but if she did not follow s.o.p., he could and probably would try. Blame reversal and inmate self amusement. If he will, I have no idea. moo

February
08-02-2012, 08:47 PM
I think the plan started before May.

Do I think JH would sue her? Sure, inmates sue all of the time. Doesn't mean it would work, but if she did not follow s.o.p., he could and probably would try. Blame reversal and inmate self amusement.

For other cases yes i agree , but on this case with JH? I dont know... i doubt but we'll never know till we have all the info IMO...

21merc7
08-02-2012, 08:50 PM
For other cases yes i agree , but on this case with JH? I dont know... i doubt but we'll never know till we have all the info IMO...

If he is convicted, gets life in prison, he may. I was not saying he will in the first post, just saying inmates do it. Sometimes they hold a grudge and think they are bothering whomever, sometimes they take up jail house lawyering, sometimes they really think someone would believe it.

Will this guy? I don't know. We don't even have any facts yet, just speculate with each day's new leak. :)

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 09:01 PM
And this is why I strongly believe that whatever "it" was that piqued Fenton's awareness regarding the shooter it IMO was non specific and being non specific she IMO followed the appropriate procedure of bringing her concern before the school's BETA group..

Of course just like everyone else here I can only speculate with the minuscule amount of facts known at this time, but for now I am definitely of the opinion that whatever "it" was that brought about the UNWANTED ATTENTION on the shooter.. That it was very likely non specific and even possibly just a highly educated and experienced intuition that this DR may have picked up on but had no concrete evidence of anything or anyone specific being in harms way.. I believe that if "it" was something of a nature which consisted of specific threats and/or any specific targets whatsoever that this experienced dr would have absolutely have broken confidentiality and sought out and involved the appropriate agencies(LE, etc)..

Her not taking that route leads me to the conclusion that the issue, statement, action, or behavior that she witnessed of the shooter was quite likely nothing major, nothing at all specific, and as I said even possibly was just this woman's intuition that she picked up on in just her regular contact she had with the shooter as one of his professors, admn, dr, etc..

Again with so very little to base and theorize on.. It leaves the spectrum of speculation wide open and widely varying from person to person and opinion to opinion.. But with that very little known and knowing that she did bring the shooter to the attention of the BETA group.. And as far as we know DID NOT seek out assistance from LE or other agencies ..*

I now have a totally different perspective and view of the shooter's withdrawing from the program.. Until now it's been assumed that his officially withdrawing from the program was due to the fact that he was progressing poorly, failed miserably on the oral testing that was given, and that overall the withdrawal from the program was even indicative of the spiraling and decline of him mentally..

I now am not at all certain that ANY of those aforementioned assumptions just listed have anything whatsoever to do with his decision to officially withdraw from the program.. I now definitely believe at the very least that it is a possibility that the decision and especially the timing of his officially withdrawing from the program having nothing to do with academics.. Nor anything to do with a decline in his mental health.. I now believe that the decision and timing of withdrawing had everything to do with Fenton's having become aware and/or noticing or having knowledge of the shooter being a threat or risk.. Again not knowing how Fenton became aware of any concerns for the shooter..as in did he blurt something out to her, or was there a specific action or behavior she had witnessed, or was it even more non specific than that as in more of just her intuition picking up on subtleties in him.. Those unknown factors and variables are critical details..*

But in speculating I find it altogether possible that the shooter after having given himself away in some manner to the dr, he immediately realized the err of his way and that the repercussions of her having even the slightest of suspicions about him..This could absolutely have derailed his entire months of hard work and planning for his mass murder..

The shooter had to counteract with a measure that would immediately halt any further unwanted attention his way which absolutely could have in some manner thwarted his long, premeditated mass murder agenda he had planned for opening night of TDKR.. That counteraction by the shooter was swift and immediate in diffusing the situation before it could even reach a level of real concern, worry, etc which is what would have likely ruined all of his many hours, days, weeks, and months of methodical, calculating preparation to kill as many as possible that late night/early morning of July 19/20.. And that is just something that the shooter could not allow(his plan thwarted)..

It is this that led to the immediate and official withdrawl from the program, from the college, and even physically removing himself from access to the campus.. This would halt in its track any further "issues" that Dr Fenton know posed as a threat to the shooter.. The timing of his choosing to officially withdraw from the program, the school, the campus, and even the apt complex HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT DR FENTON HAD THE SHOOTER ON HER RADAR, so to speak and the shooter knew that in order to neutralize that issue that the counteract had to be strong..

Well IMO it doesn't get any stronger and anymore absolutely diffused than when a person who for what was likely a minor, non specific reason had become on this dr's radar and she had brought his name before the school's BETA group.. What more efficient way to ensure the person poses zero threat in the least to the school, faculty, or students.. Than for the individual to completely and totally remove himself from the entire equation as a whole???.. IMO it doesn't get more resolved than that..

And IMO its exactly why I strongly, strongly believe that the shooters decision and especially the timing of his decision to officially, permenantly, and immediately withdraw fully from the program, the school, the campus, and even the student apartments.. Nothing to do with poor progression academically, poor testing on the orals, or anything even remotely related to academia or DECLINE IN MENTAL HEALTH ...

It had everything to do with his determination to absolutely carry out his long and well thought out plan of mass murder without interruption from a dr, who for whatever reason(variable still unknown) had put this student on her radar and informed the BETA group of his existence..

His counteract could not have been timed, not worked more perfectly than exactly how he executed it.. Chilling.. Absolutely chilling to think about the amount of well thought out processes, choices, and decisions that went into his making damn certain his agenda was carried out..

All jmo
Great post. Smooth! As I was reading it you know what struck me, so many folks, it seems, are focusing on the spoken word, a concrete overt threat verbally. . Wherein, for the professional, it is based on behavioral observation in conjunction with verbalizations.

When you stated he immediately realized the error of his ways my next thought was your giving him too much orientation to reality.

And I understand it’s really hard, for a lot of folks, to not cross over to the fact that James Holmes, in James Holmes mind, did not kill anybody - the joker did. And, in my opinion, until that essential notion can be embraced it’s really hard to understand how sick indeed this kid was.

Another fascinating component of your post was when you said the person poses zero threat in the least to the school faculty or students. It was an interesting way to say exactly what I’ve maintained the entire time.

Again your notions that he was oriented and living in a realistic world wherein my contention is that he was completely out of reality-however-both of our conclusions, are the same --- in that he did not voluntarily withdraw -- basically administration kicked him out and then lied about it, because of the “danger” component!

However, as far as the Dr. goes, it is totally irrelevant whether he remained in the program or not. Her legal, ethical, and moral obligations, upon becoming aware, that in her opinion, he was dangerous - it was her obligation to see to it that he was evaluated in an in-patient setting to determine if he met involuntary commitment criteria.
Great post thanx!

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 09:01 PM
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do? ( link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-threat-assessment-teams-colorado-shooting-20120802,0,1436527.story) )
By Michael Muskal
August 2, 2012, 2:42 p.m.


But what the threat assessment committee did – or didn’t – do could become a key legal issue at the complicated intersection of mental health and the law. Some of the related questions could focus on the criminal case; others could involve civil liability.

About 80% of colleges have some form of threat assessment team, Brett A. Sokolow, executive director of the National Behavioral Intervention Team Assn., said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times. The association has 700 to 800 active members and serves as a clearinghouse for information related to threat assessment teams, including training and implementation.

carson456
08-02-2012, 09:04 PM
Girl, Benzo's were my drug of choice. I'd have passed up a Vicodin for a Benzo (pretty much any one of 'em) any day, all day. They treat two totally different things but both are highly addictive. I can't imagine any Doc giving someone Vicodin for anxiety, it's a pain pill.

(Hi. I've been lurking for a while and decided to comment.)

You are right, Vicodin is an opioid and not indicated for anxiety whatsoever. Vicodin would definitely not have been prescribed for anxiety. A psychiatrist would not typically prescribe any pain pills to a client anyway.
There's really no telling what class of medication may have been prescribed for JH because we don't know his medical diagnosis. There are options for non-sedating meds to treat anxiety, such as Buspirone or an SSRI.

Also, we don't know the specifications so we don't know if he would have potentially qualified for an involuntary commitment to the psych ward for evaluation. It's just sad to think that something as small as a police wellness check may have prevented this.

Why do you have all this gasoline in your apartment?

Roxye
08-02-2012, 09:16 PM
Yes she can call the Police on JH.
It is always the discretion of the Psychiatrist to detect if calling the cops is needed. They always have what you call a "judgement call" . If her words is really - JH is danger to others , then she should just call LE for that 72 hours evaluation hold... but then again , this will give us another question - how did we know she didnt call or she call LE for that?

These questions are endless :)

Here is a copy of the Colorado Law in this Area: more on the link about the 72 hour hold.

27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section.

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html


BUT, if a DOCTOR is part of a University program, then there are channels they have to go through, by law and their contract, BEFORE they call police.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 09:23 PM
Involuntary mental health confinement: a ‘gray area’ ( link (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/48474986/#48474986) )
Nightly News | Aired on August 02, 2012


Before James Holmes quit his neuroscience Ph.D. program he was being treated by psychiatrist Dr. Lynn Fenton at the University of Colorado, but there was no apparent move to impose a 72-hour mental health evaluation on Holmes, something that is available under Colorado law. NBC’s Mike Taibbi reports.

Roxye
08-02-2012, 09:26 PM
The answer is yes.
A direct threat is not required, EXAMPLE: self mutilation is not a direct threat some of them pull their hair out, they cut themselves....attempt suicide. Just to mention 2 out of hundreds of other ways you can hospitalize against their will. IF THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEMSELVS OR OTHERS - you don’t take any chances you hospitalize.

We do not know why his physiatrist was alarmed by his behavior. BUT SHE WAS ALARMED.

But the only PUBLIC thing we saw so far was him dying his hair. Dying your hair and and explicit rage, isn't enough to say this boy gave her any reason to believe he would actually do SOMETHING to express his rage. She thought he MIGHT be a threat, and she did what she COULD do because of her contract with the University. After JH started the withdraw process, what was she to do?

He had rage and he dyed his hair. My now 22 year old daughter did that at 17, but she was never a threat to anyone. She was just angry and young. Maybe this DR thought the same about JH,

If my daughter turned out to be the Mass Murder this man has become, would I be at fault for just thinking she is young and stupid? As she turned out to be?

February
08-02-2012, 09:31 PM
BUT, if a DOCTOR is part of a University program, then there are channels they have to go through, by law and their contract, BEFORE they call police.

She works for the University but at the same time she has a Colorado medical license to follow Colorado medical etiquettes and laws IMO.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 09:31 PM
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do? ( link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-threat-assessment-teams-colorado-shooting-20120802,0,1436527.story) )
By Michael Muskal
August 2, 2012, 2:42 p.m.




About 80% of colleges have some form of threat assessment team, Brett A. Sokolow, executive director of the National Behavioral Intervention Team Assn., said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times. The association has 700 to 800 active members and serves as a clearinghouse for information related to threat assessment teams, including training and implementation.

I still don't see any answers on what these teams can do if the student voluntarily leaves the university and they lose jurisdiction.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 09:35 PM
Since we our on the blame game train. What about the government?

Civil commitment is necessary form of preventative detention. But the entire US legal and constitutional system is organized to protect people from preventive detention.

Unless he made and confirmed a threat to commit a violent act, he would not be commited.

Call 911? Have him evaluated? The doctors can only take his word. And his word may have been "I'm fine." They wouldn't have access to his gun purchases, bomb planning, etc.

She was his doctor, she should know. Maybe she did. Maybe she insisted a judge strip away his constitutional right of freedom and the judge denied.

It's scary to think one phone call can get a person stripped away of his or her rights to freedom.

I think he is scary and a danger but, really, I hate to think where this may snowball when people are saying - just call the cops, they'll put him away against his will.

Agree with you 100%

Scary that people think the slightest thing should warrant a 72 hour lockup.

We have no idea what he even said to her at this point.

February
08-02-2012, 09:43 PM
Agree with you 100%

Scary that people think the slightest thing should warrant a 72 hour lockup.

We have no idea what he even said to her at this point.



why would it be scary calling LE or 72 hours lockup? Not everyone can actually call a 72 hold , and not everyone will put their license on their line to call this. They have a judgement to make and if we go back to early May and say she called LE to put him on 72 hour lockdown, LE come to his house to get him and discovered all his ammunitions , guns, liquid bombs .... guess what will happen? That Fenton will be called a HERO imo...

IMO court order is still needed to process that 72 hour lockdown.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 09:46 PM
why would it be scary calling LE or 72 hours lockup? Not everyone can actually call a 72 hold , and not everyone will put their license on their line to call this. They have a judgement to make and if we go back to early May and say she called LE to put him on 72 hour lockdown, LE come to his house to get him and discovered all his ammunitions , guns, liquid bombs .... guess what will happen? That Fenton will be called a HERO imo...

What happens when its your kid who dyes their hair and acts a little angsty while they're away at school, and is detained against their will for 72 hours?

My point is, we have absolutely no idea what he even said to her. Just acting off is not rationale for a 72 hr hold. We can look back on what happened and say it is, but at the time? Without knowing what was said, no one can say she should have called.


Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 09:48 PM
Colorado shooting: It’s hard to spot threats, experts say ( link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/colorado-shooting-its-hard-to-spot-threats-experts-say/2012/08/02/gJQA1fj1SX_story_1.html) )
By Jenna Johnson and Joel Achenbach, Washington Post
Thursday, August 2, 6:03 PM


The university has become a fortress of silence since the theater shooting, but some members of the community here have expressed dismay that one of their own allegedly planned mass murder without detection.

“The signs are there, people just have to look for them,” said Justin Beasley, 32, a fourth-generation Aurora resident as he sat at a park watching his two children play. “We live in a crazy world, and there are a lot of scary people out there who have access to such horrible weapons. It scares me, it scares my wife, it scares all of us.”

[...]

Experts on threat assessment say it’s an inherently tricky enterprise. They say the most dangerous people do not fit a simple profile. Some of the personality traits common among mass murderers are indistinguishable from the characteristics of harmless individuals who sit quietly in their room playing video games.

[...]

“The minute I heard [about the Aurora shooting] I said, oh, a lot of people are going to know about this guy. They probably saw warning signs or red flags earlier, and a lot of people didn’t recognize what they saw,” said Anne Glavin, chief of police at California State University at Northridge and the president of the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators.

“People don’t just snap. They don’t just go crazy. They don’t just ‘go postal.’ There’s no such thing,” she said.

[...]

Although psychiatrists have an ethical responsibility to offer confidential treatment, there are situations in which a doctor can, and legally must, breach the confidentiality and alert authorities to an imminent threat. Every state has its own laws and guidelines about this “duty to warn.”

Colorado’s law states that mental health professionals are protected from lawsuits if a patient turns violent “except where the patient has communicated to the mental health care provider a serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons.”

Students with mental health issues have rights under the Americans with Disability Act. This was something that Anschutz leaders, including Fenton, discussed as they created the BETA team, according to meeting notes on the university Web site: “Concern was expressed about students with behavior problems falling back on underlying ADA issues as an ‘excuse.’ Legal decisions often support the student at the expense of the institution.”

February
08-02-2012, 09:50 PM
What happens when its your kid who dyes their hair and acts a little angsty while they're away at school, and is detained against their will for 72 hours?

My point is, we have absolutely no idea what he even said to her. Just acting off is not rationale for a 72 hr hold. We can look back on what happened and say it is, but at the time? Without knowing what was said, no one can say she should have called.

If my kid dyes her hair purple or green - they can come and get him and evaluate him for a month - if that is needed but i will get second opinion if they will prescribe him a mental pill...all people are different. IMO

if you look at my previous post, i also said that we dont know what she learned to say that JH is danger to others but the word is there - JH IS DANGER TO OTHERS . She said to her colleagues that JH is danger to others ... How can you interpret that?

Roxye
08-02-2012, 09:51 PM
She works for the University but at the same time she has a Colorado medical license to follow Colorado medical etiquettes and laws IMO.

Her contract with the University and the privacy law with that University, would bind her hands.

Just like any cooperation, you sign a contract with, you as an employee are bound by the contract you sign. Just because it was a state run institution doesn't mean the contract she sign doesn't bind her.

IMO She did what she thought was right, by the bounds of her contract. Once withdraw procedures started, her hands were tied. JMO

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 09:52 PM
Everyone , in the beginning of the first session signs this. (Calling law enforcement does not breach confidentiality).

Confidentiality, Harm, and Inquiry: Information from my evaluation and/or treatment is contained in a confidential medical record and I consent to disclosure for use by staff for the purpose of continuity of care. Information provided will be kept confidential with the following exceptions: 1) if it is deemed that I present a danger to myself/others 2) if concerns about possible abuse or neglect arise; or 3) if a court order is issued to obtain records.

February
08-02-2012, 09:56 PM
The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/

she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others

If you think he isnt a danger to others after reading this then i dont know what to say. IMO

February
08-02-2012, 09:58 PM
27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

songline
08-02-2012, 09:58 PM
But the only PUBLIC thing we saw so far was him dying his hair. Dying your hair and and explicit rage, isn't enough to say this boy gave her any reason to believe he would actually do SOMETHING to express his rage. She thought he MIGHT be a threat, and she did what she COULD do because of her contract with the University. After JH started the withdraw process, what was she to do?

He had rage and he dyed his hair. My now 22 year old daughter did that at 17, but she was never a threat to anyone. She was just angry and young. Maybe this DR thought the same about JH,

If my daughter turned out to be the Mass Murder this man has become, would I be at fault for just thinking she is young and stupid? As she turned out to be?

It is not what we saw that matters, it is what she saw.
Nobody unravels to that degree in a few weeks.
The unraveling was ON and she would not have been so concerned with his behavior to have alerted a number of others. Talk is cheap actions it what makes a difference.
And the school buttoning up so fast and telling people not to talk so fast is a red flag.
I am not playing politics for the school NOP. I know too much and trust what I know.
Something stinks and I smell all the way here.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 09:58 PM
The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/

she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others

If you think he isnt a danger to others after reading this then i dont know what to say. IMO

It depends exactly what he said, and nothing has been confirmed.

If he did, indeed say "I am going to hurt someone" she should have called the cops. The fact that she did not makes me believe it was way more vague than that.

February
08-02-2012, 09:59 PM
Her contract with the University and the privacy law with that University, would bind her hands.



The University has to follow Colorado Laws

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 09:59 PM
If my kid dyes her hair purple or green - they can come and get him and evaluate him for a month - if that is needed but i will get second opinion if they will prescribe him a mental pill...all people are different. IMO

if you look at my previous post, i also said that we dont know what she learned to say that JH is danger to others but the word is there - JH IS DANGER TO OTHERS . She said to her colleagues that JH is danger to others ... How can you interpret that?

Are you seriously saying you'd be ok with your kid getting locked up for a mental evaluation for month simply for dying their hair a funny color?

If they were held against their will, you'd have no say on a 2nd opinion.

That is not a direct quote from Dr. Fenton. I need more information before judging what she did.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:00 PM
27-65-106. Court-ordered evaluation for persons with mental illness.

(1) Any person alleged to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, to be a danger to others or to himself or herself or to be gravely disabled may be given an evaluation of his or her condition under a court order pursuant to this section

http://www.criminal-lawyer-colorado.com/criminal-law/colorado-criminal-law-understanding-psychiatric-evaluations-in-the-emergency-room-and-colorado-involuntary-treatment-laws.html

There was no court order to get my daughter into a hospital.
she did attempt suicide... NO COURT ORDER needed for ALL things.
There are exceptions...

songline
08-02-2012, 10:02 PM
Are you seriously saying you'd be ok with your kid getting locked up for a mental evaluation for month simply for dying their hair a funny color?

If they were held against their will, you'd have no say on a 2nd opinion.

That is not a direct quote from Dr. Fenton. I need more information before judging what she did.
His Dr. did not alert people because his hair was a funny color.

He did not fail the oral exam because he is smart... he was already not focused by that exam time.

February
08-02-2012, 10:02 PM
It depends exactly what he said, and nothing has been confirmed.

If he did, indeed say "I am going to hurt someone" she should have called the cops. The fact that she did not makes me believe it was way more vague than that.

as a psychiatrist, why would she actually say that she could be potentially danger to others ?

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 10:03 PM
I still don't see any answers on what these teams can do if the student voluntarily leaves the university and they lose jurisdiction.
Exactly. There's really nothing these teams can do if the student leaves the university. Imho, people are too focused upon the BETA team, when the focus, if at all relevant, was the fact that something caused fenton to contact them in the first place. That bit of information is, imho, the most concrete crack in the "holmes was a normal guy who just snapped" thesis. Even so, at this point, that is all it is. Simply bc we do not know:


a) what caused her to contact the BETA team in the first place
b) whether she continued to see him
c) whether she terminated their sessions
d) whether he terminated their sessions

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:04 PM
as a psychiatrist, why would she actually say that she could be potentially danger to others ?

Do we have a direct quote that Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

songline
08-02-2012, 10:05 PM
The University has to follow Colorado Laws


The laws vary when it comes to MI... Each situation is considered differently.
ONLY one thing has to be in place for hopitalization "Had to be a danger, Perceived dangerous" no court order at all.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:05 PM
His Dr. did not alert people because his hair was a funny color.

He did not fail the oral exam because he is smart... he was already not focused by that exam time.

We have no idea why his Doctor alerted anyone, that's the point.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:07 PM
Do we have a direct quote that Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

THANK YOU... That is what me to turn around.
Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

February
08-02-2012, 10:07 PM
Are you seriously saying you'd be ok with your kid getting locked up for a mental evaluation for month simply for dying their hair a funny color?

.

I am serious - you see every parents are different. Locking them up doesnt mean they will go to Jail. If it is necessary for them to get help in the hospital- then why not?

and to be honest with you, am a strict parent, i better not see my kid dye their hair like that, i am going to the hair salon with them and cut all their hair myself hahaha...

Roxye
08-02-2012, 10:07 PM
The University has to follow Colorado Laws

I agree that they SHOULD! But in actuality they don't.

When it comes to a state university, they always have campus police and policies that have nothing to do with STATE law.

A STATE University usually has it's own set of laws and rule, that might coincide with state policy, but they don't have to report infliction's in that state policy to the state police because they have their own body of law on campus.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:08 PM
THANK YOU... That is what me to turn around.
Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

No one knows what she said and no one has quoted her or anyone from the campus, at this point, all there is is vague reporting.

I'm reserving judgement until we find out exactly what she said, and what alarmed her.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:08 PM
We have no idea why his Doctor alerted anyone, that's the point.


Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:09 PM
I am serious - you see every parents are different. Locking them up doesnt mean they will go to Jail. If it is necessary for them to get help in the hospital- then why not?

and to be honest with you, am a strict parent, i better not see my kid dye their hair like that, i am going to the hair salon with them and cut all their hair myself hahaha...

I don't think dying your hair a crazy color warrants a stay in a mental institution. That's a little extreme, not matter how strict you are.

Padua
08-02-2012, 10:09 PM
There was no court order to get my daughter into a hospital.
she did attempt suicide... NO COURT ORDER needed for ALL things.
There are exceptions...

Suicide and homicide are two different entities.

February
08-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Do we have a direct quote that Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

Nobody even knows where FENTON is but look again on my CNN link

The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,

she said to her colleagues
If that is not true then that is a different story and we need to get CNN's attention

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Fenton said that? Those exact words... "he is a danger to others"

Nope. No one knows what she said.

newsleuther
08-02-2012, 10:10 PM
Nobody even knows where FENTON is but look again on my CNN link

The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,

she said to her colleagues
If that is not true then that is a different story and we need to get CNN's attention

Again, that is not a quote.

Look at how the media misinterpreted what his mother said when she said "you have the right person".

songline
08-02-2012, 10:11 PM
No one knows what she said and no one has quoted her or anyone from the campus, at this point, all there is is vague reporting.

I'm reserving judgement until we find out exactly what she said, and what alarmed her.

I WAS reserving judgment till I read that she perceived and said he is a danger to others.
I am too tired to find the link now. I DID READ IT.
I did not turn around till I read that.

February
08-02-2012, 10:12 PM
I don't think dying your hair a crazy color warrants a stay in a mental institution. That's a little extreme, not matter how strict you are.

LOL but then again, i should know what these kids are up to... i should know how they were behaving days before they color their hair and so on....

February
08-02-2012, 10:13 PM
Again, that is not a quote.

Look at how the media misinterpreted what his mother said when she said "you have the right person".

well it is not a direct quote but it seems like there is going to be a witness who said that right?...

songline
08-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Suicide and homicide are two different entities.

NO KIDDING :waitasec: :floorlaugh:

Involuntary Hospitalization applies to both.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:20 PM
Again, that is not a quote.

Look at how the media misinterpreted what his mother said when she said "you have the right person".

Basically not so sure they misinterpreted the mother at all.
IMO it was damage control also known as back tracking. Due to the magnitude of this situation.

BUT here we go... that is not what I read early this morning but it will do for now. I am real tired.http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/index.html

SNIP:The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others, CNN affiliate KMGH reported Wednesday, citing sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The psychiatrist's concerns surfaced in early June, nearly six weeks before the July 20 killings inside a movie theater in Aurora, sources told the Denver station.

YAP: then the school asks everyone to zip it up..... SURE - sell me the Brooklyn Bridge - I need a new one.

February
08-02-2012, 10:24 PM
Given all the scenarios we are going back and forth -
Let's say , .... she called the police for a 72 hour lock down... Police went to JH house to get him.... they discovered 6000 ammunition, gun liquid bombs...LE confiscated all of these and charged him with illegal possession of this and that and so on...

WILL you give Fenton a hug for doing this or you think JH should sue her?

:what::what::what:

I am just curious of how you will think of this...

songline
08-02-2012, 10:28 PM
I think the plan started before May.

Do I think JH could sue her? Sure, inmates sue all of the time. Doesn't mean it would work, but if she did not follow s.o.p., he could and probably would try. Blame reversal and inmate self amusement. If he will, I have no idea. moo
ME not sure that JH can sue her but his parents can and I would in a nono second.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 10:28 PM
SURE - sell me the Brooklyn Bridge - I need a new one.
Sorry. Am out of bridges, at the moment. How about some property on the moon?

songline
08-02-2012, 10:32 PM
Given all the scenarios we are going back and forth -
Let's say , .... she called the police for a 72 hour lock down... Police went to JH house to get him.... they discovered 6000 ammunition, gun liquid bombs...LE confiscated all of these and charged him with illegal possession of this and that and so on...

WILL you give Fenton a hug for doing this or you think JH should sue her?

:what::what::what:

I am just curious of how you will think of this...

GOOD POST :clap: :clap:


Seems to be some protect the hospital going on... maybe we can’t say much because we do not want WS to get in trouble...
But we can talk about what is already in the public domain, and our suspicions too.
I am not going to protect anyone but the victems. MY FIRM STAND.

Padua
08-02-2012, 10:32 PM
MY not sure that JH can sue her but his parents can and I would in a nono second.

How can his parents sue her? And I want a logical explanation.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Sorry. Am out of bridges, at the moment. How about some property on the moon?


Not unless it has a beach... :D
But you are welcome to go there and wait for me.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:36 PM
How can his parents sue her?

If I sent my child to a school like that.
I would expect the professionals to be professionals.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING AND DO SOMETHING.
It seems to me she saw plenty, said something, did nothing.
GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 10:37 PM
If I sent my child to a school like that.
I would expect the professionals to be professionals.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING AND DO SOMETHING.
It seems to me she saw plenty, said something, did nothing.
GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

24 year old is not a child. He is an adult by all legal standards. School can not report him to his parents without his permission. If he wants to drop out, there is nothing to stop him.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 10:38 PM
Not unless it has a beach... :D
But you are welcome to go there and wait for me.
Darn. No beach, or water. The continental divide might be better. You know, in the Rockies, west of Denver. I hear it's beautiful this time of the year.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:39 PM
It depends exactly what he said, and nothing has been confirmed.

If he did, indeed say "I am going to hurt someone" she should have called the cops. The fact that she did not makes me believe it was way more vague than that.
Not ONLY on what he said.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:39 PM
Darn. No beach, or water. The continental divide might be better. You know, in the Rockies, west of Denver. I hear it's beautiful this time of the year.
Not my domain. Try again.

Padua
08-02-2012, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE=songline;8223030]If I sent my child to a school like that.
I would expect the professionals to be professionals.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING AND DO SOMETHING.
It seems to me she saw plenty, said something, did nothing.
GROSS NEGLIGENCE.[/

A "child" is not a "child" anymore in their mid twenties. They are an adult unattached to a mothers apron.

CARIIS
08-02-2012, 10:43 PM
Although psychiatrists have an ethical responsibility to offer confidential treatment, there are situations in which a doctor can, and legally must, breach the confidentiality and alert authorities to an imminent threat

carson456
08-02-2012, 10:44 PM
If I sent my child to a school like that.
I would expect the professionals to be professionals.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING AND DO SOMETHING.
It seems to me she saw plenty, said something, did nothing.
GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

I also would like to know how his parents could possibly sue the school. He is an independent adult.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:45 PM
[QUOTE=songline;8223030]If I sent my child to a school like that.
I would expect the professionals to be professionals.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING AND DO SOMETHING.
It seems to me she saw plenty, said something, did nothing.
GROSS NEGLIGENCE.[/

A "child" is not a "child" anymore in their mid twenties. They are an adult unattached to a mothers apron.


Mine is in her 40's to me she will 4 ever be my child.
To JH parents he will forever be their child.
If you have grown kids you'll get it.

Can you pick your nose next instead of silly stuff.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 10:46 PM
[quote=Padua;8223062]


Mine is in her 40's to me she will 4 ever be my child.
To JH parents he will forever be their child.
If you have grown kids you'll get it.

Can you pick your nose next instead of silly stuff.

To you it's a child. But to everyone else 24 year old is a legal adult.
Not a little baby somebody is going to follow around 24/7.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:46 PM
I also would like to know how his parents could possibly sue the school. He is an independent adult.

obviously MI (impaired)

jjenny
08-02-2012, 10:49 PM
obviously MI (impaired)

Says who? And regardless, unless declared incompetent (which he was not)-still a legal adult. Who can do what he wants.

carson456
08-02-2012, 10:53 PM
If we are ever privileged to his information, I will be interested to know what psychiatric medications she may have prescribed him. And how people may say those medications contributed to his actions.

For example, you see all the warnings on tv commercials with antidepressants. How they may cause suicidal behaviors. The drug itself doesn't make someone suicidal. But the drug brings them enough out of their depressed, fatigued, can't-get-out-of-bed state and gives them the energy to actually commit the act of suicide.

I wonder if he was prescribed an antidepressant that gave him the drive to actually carry out this heinous attack. Just a thought.

carson456
08-02-2012, 10:54 PM
obviously MI (impaired)

What would his potential mental insanity have to do with his parents?
They are not a unit.

songline
08-02-2012, 10:54 PM
You can play semantics with words all day long.
You can walk around with Eyes Wide Shut all day long.
A lot we do not know, and the stench of this smells all the way here on the east coast, yap I dont trust the schools accountability.

JH is responsible for what he had done.
This could have been prevented by professionals.
Not only should JH parents sue, sue, sue, but every victims family should too.
This smells like chit to me, I feel very strongly that there is a HUGE chance that it could have been prevented.

Just a scenario – what if the school was afraid of him and sat on their hands.????

songline
08-02-2012, 10:58 PM
What would his potential mental insanity have to do with his parents?
They are not a unit.
They lost a son just as all the victims lost family.
I think all the victims families should sue too.

What if this could have been prevented, medicated in time, or put in an MI hospital for a period?
I do not have a crystal ball. but sitting on your hands is no answer to anything.
As A parent I would sue. Criminal or Gross Negligence.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 11:03 PM
They lost a son just as all the victims lost family.
I think all the victims families should sue too.

What if this could have been prevented, medicated in time, or put in an MI hospital for a period?
I do not have a crystal ball. but sitting on your hands is no answer to anything.
As A parent I would sue. Criminal or Gross Negligence.

How exactly did they lose him? He isn't dead. He is sitting in jail getting his three meals a day.
And you can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't mean you are going to get any $.

carson456
08-02-2012, 11:05 PM
They lost a son just as all the victims lost family.
I think all the victims families should sue too.

What if this could have been prevented, medicated in time, or put in an MI hospital for a period?
I do not have a crystal ball. but sitting on your hands is no answer to anything.
As A parent I would sue. Criminal or Gross Negligence.

You don't know he wasn't medicated. We don't know when their contact ended. There could have been phone calls from her Really, we don't know anything. I think wanting to sue without all the facts (or any) is very unrealistic and just an emotional hail mary.

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 11:06 PM
If he met the qualifications for disability, and he was one of the disabled students in their program, and if there were some sort of arrangement between the parents and the school, then yes, I could see the parents suing the school. Unfortunately, at this point, we have no idea. Everything put forward at this point, is a shinning example of a guy who was excelling academically.

That said, the biggest problem with MI, is that those who struggle with it are stigmatized. So, you end up with not only the afflicted but their families hiding, in denial, that sort of thing. Bc, regardless of how accepting the public claims to be, they aren't.

To me, if we are going to make any headway whatsoever, things will have to change wrt how we not only clinically treat the mentally ill but socially treat them as well. Bc, as long as it carries with it, the cloud of stigmatism, people will do their damndest to hide it. And as long as they're hiding it, they're not getting helped. And sadly, imho, we'll continue having these tragedies, people will cry out in outrage, and slowly, over time, the mentally ill will be even more marginalized.

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 11:06 PM
He's still her son who was treated by a doctor connected to the school. This doctor did try to get a BETA team together, but it didn't happen fast enough, and then her son still in a dangerous state received no follow up before he was "allowed", or maybe urged, to drop out of school. Consequently, her son may now spend the rest of his life in prison, or even face the DP. Tell me she can in someway sue the doctor or the school. ????????????

shadowraiths
08-02-2012, 11:17 PM
How exactly did they lose him? He isn't dead.
Oh, but they did lose him. Which is why, the very first post in this very thread notes, and I quote:


Do not make accusations towards the family..at all. We do not know the dynamics. If this should change the rule will change with it.
The point being, this is a victim friendly site. And at this point, yes, the parents are victims. They've lost their son. He may end up in prison or a mental institute for life, or he may receive the death penalty. Regardless the outcome, we can pretty much rest assured, he will not be going home to his parents.

I cannot imagine what that would feel like, as a parent. To have brought a child into the world, kissed their booboos, dried their tears, watched them grow, watched them walk down the aisle at graduation, and all the things that we, as parents, experience and celebrate with our children. And yes, even, or especially, if our children are troubled, the heartache of not being able to take their pain away, the fear that their choices might result in their own, or other's deaths. This case is tragic on so many levels.

So, yes, they have lost him.

Curious Me
08-02-2012, 11:20 PM
Ever notice how easily people will point fingers at the mother especially if she knew this was going to happen? Turn it around, if she didn't know, too bad she's got no recourse.

Well, I've strained my brain enough for one day.

jjenny
08-02-2012, 11:33 PM
Oh, but they did lose him. Which is why, the very first post in this very thread notes, and I quote:


The point being, this is a victim friendly site. And at this point, yes, the parents are victims. They've lost their son. He may end up in prison or a mental institute for life, or he may receive the death penalty. Regardless the outcome, we can pretty much rest assured, he will not be going home to his parents.

I cannot imagine what that would feel like, as a parent. To have brought a child into the world, kissed their booboos, dried their tears, watched them grow, watched them walk down the aisle at graduation, and all the things that we, as parents, experience and celebrate with our children. And yes, even, or especially, if our children are troubled, the heartache of not being able to take their pain away, the fear that their choices might result in their own, or other's deaths. This case is tragic on so many levels.

So, yes, they have lost him.

Saying they haven't lost him doesn't have anything to do with instructions to not blame his family. Even if he isn't coming home they can presumably go and visit him if they want.

February
08-02-2012, 11:53 PM
He's still her son who was treated by a doctor connected to the school. This doctor did try to get a BETA team together, but it didn't happen fast enough, and then her son still in a dangerous state received no follow up before he was "allowed", or maybe urged, to drop out of school. Consequently, her son may now spend the rest of his life in prison, or even face the DP. Tell me she can in someway sue the doctor or the school. ????????????

Questions !

Can the parents file for Full Legal Adult Guardianship of JH since JH is filing for insanity which falls under disability ? If yes, after filing for guardianship, can they file lawsuit on behalf of JH to the school or doctor just in case they are at fault?

:seeya:

jjenny
08-03-2012, 12:24 AM
Considering all the dead and injured victims, I have absolutely no clue why we are discussing the suspect's or his family's right to sue. If anything, presumably the victims and their families could sue him. Of course with him not having a lot of finances, that would be pretty much pointless. Regardless, his doctor is very well protected from lawsuits. If she was just concerned about his behavior she is not liable. He'd have to communicate to her a serious threat of violence against specific person or persons.

"Colorado’s law states that mental health professionals are protected from lawsuits if a patient turns violent “except where the patient has communicated to the mental health care provider a serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/colorado-shooting-its-hard-to-spot-threats-experts-say/2012/08/02/gJQA1fj1SX_story_1.html

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 12:41 AM
a psychotherapist has a duty to warn even if the actual victim(s) was not foreseeable. ....
..the therapist’s duty to warn is implicitly contained within the guidelines for [B]disclosure of confidential information without the consent of the client:
-Duty to warn is among the few --
[/COLOR]--when there is cause for serious concern about a client harming someone, the clinician must breach confidentiality
--Explicit in the court’s decision was the principle that the confidentiality of the therapeutic relationship is subordinate to the safety of society and her members
[u....... a clinician's professional judgment is key. They have to identify whether there is a sense of urgency, and if there is a likelihood of a patient acting on the thoughts. A patient's history of violence, mental illness and substance abuse is also considered, according to the Journal of Family Practice.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/health/therapist-violence/index.html?npt=NP

rl]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology[/url]

carson456
08-03-2012, 12:52 AM
Oh, but they did lose him. Which is why, the very first post in this very thread notes, and I quote:


The point being, this is a victim friendly site. And at this point, yes, the parents are victims. They've lost their son. He may end up in prison or a mental institute for life, or he may receive the death penalty. Regardless the outcome, we can pretty much rest assured, he will not be going home to his parents.

I cannot imagine what that would feel like, as a parent. To have brought a child into the world, kissed their booboos, dried their tears, watched them grow, watched them walk down the aisle at graduation, and all the things that we, as parents, experience and celebrate with our children. And yes, even, or especially, if our children are troubled, the heartache of not being able to take their pain away, the fear that their choices might result in their own, or other's deaths. This case is tragic on so many levels.

So, yes, they have lost him.

It's all very sad. They've lost their son. Lots of people lose children. Doesn't mean they are owed anything monetarily. Just because she was seeing him on a professional level doesn't mean she is responsible for his behavior. She could have been concerned about him because he admitted to fantasizing about killing all of his classmates. Doesn't mean that is a threat.

What if she prescribed him antipsychotics that he chose not to take, and the voices in his head told him to commit the crime. Is she still responsible?

February
08-03-2012, 01:09 AM
Considering all the dead and injured victims, I have absolutely no clue why we are discussing the suspect's or his family's right to sue. If anything, presumably the victims and their families could sue him. Of course with him not having a lot of finances, that would be pretty much pointless. Regardless, his doctor is very well protected from lawsuits. If she was just concerned about his behavior she is not liable. He'd have to communicate to her a serious threat of violence against specific person or persons.

"Colorado’s law states that mental health professionals are protected from lawsuits if a patient turns violent “except where the patient has communicated to the mental health care provider a serious threat of imminent physical violence against a specific person or persons.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/colorado-shooting-its-hard-to-spot-threats-experts-say/2012/08/02/gJQA1fj1SX_story_1.html

Well like everyone else, i want the victims and their families to sue who is at fault here. If another poster asked why the parents cant sue if school or doctor is at fault, i dont think it is wrong to talk about it as long as we are not accusing the parents per the admins of this board.

February
08-03-2012, 01:39 AM
Are you feeling what i am feeling about this article?


CU Threat BETA Team Has No Guidelines
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31328515/detail.html
DENVER --
The team charged with identifying and preventing threats like last month’s mass shoot at an Aurora theater has no set policies or procedures on when people should report threats or when to convene the team when threats are brought forward, a CALL7 investigation found.
.....
But University of Colorado officials confirmed Thursday that the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team has no guidelines or policies that dictate when people should report threats or when the team should convene to discuss them. Sources said the team was never convened to address Fenton's concerns about Holmes because he left school June 10.

Since 2010, when Fenton helped to form the BETA team, there have been about a dozen calls to team chairman -- currently Larry Loften -- about various threats, according to a CU spokeswoman. She declined to say whether Fenton’s calls about Holmes were in those dozen calls.

Sources say Loften was one of the people Fenton called with her concerns and questions about Holmes. CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia caught up with Loften after work to ask him about the team's policies and procedures but he declined. But a university spokeswoman said the threat assessment has no defined policy or threshold of when the team should be convened or notified of threats.

Sources with knowledge of the investigation also told CALL7 Investigators that along with expressing concerns about Holmes possibly being a threat to others, Fenton was “gathering information to couple with what she knew to … make an educated decision about what to do concerning Holmes.”

One source said: “It’s very unusual to get a call from Dr. Fenton. (But) there was no clear red-flag thrown at the CU assessment team. It wasn’t a warning.”
Another source said: “The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns about what he told her and that he could potentially harm others. She was trying to figure out what to do.”

February
08-03-2012, 01:54 AM
so did DA Chambers already examine the notebook? what happen to the Gag Order? LOL...


Arapahoe County District Attorney Carol Chambers disputed news reports that the notebook contained descriptions of an attack.

Read more: http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_21190648/colorado-shooting-suspect-be-formally-charged#ixzz22SXU5gpV

:what::what::what:

People's response number 3 on this court docs said :

contents were secured and not examine and held for potential in camera review
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

February
08-03-2012, 02:07 AM
IMO... this last article about the BETA Team
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31328515/detail.html

I think Lynne Fenton should hire now her own personal Lawyer. IMO This comment below sounds like some people could be staying away from her or i could be wrong? I dont know but am confused why would they think it is "unusual" to get a call from Fenton

One source said: “It’s very unusual to get a call from Dr. Fenton. (But) there was no clear red-flag thrown at the CU assessment team. It wasn’t a warning.”

SmoothOperator
08-03-2012, 03:26 AM
IMO equally if not more importantly there is the below statements quoted from the CNN link upthread about Fenton and her having spoken with BETA yet did not go to LE about the student.

."Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team" in "the first 10 days" of June but it "never came together" because in the period Fenton was having conversations with team members, Holmes began the process of dropping out of school, a source told KMGH.

Sources told the station that when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team "had no control over him."

KMGH said sources did not know what Holmes told Fenton that sparked her concern.

"It takes more than just statements," one source told the station, explaining that Holmes would have had to tell Fenton "something specific" before she would have to report it to law enforcement.

As I said equally if not more important than the info from the article alleging that Fenton told other staff that he was a possible danger.. That information snipped and quoted in a post alone and by itself out of context makes it more outraging and angering.. But if it is kept in its original context and post the entirety of what it together as a whole says and means.. Well.. IMO you get a totally different understanding of what is being reported..

So, sure snipping and quoting a mere modicum of statement that Fenton allegedly told others of her concern BUT DID NOTHING.. Causes anger and outrage.. But when the quote is in its entirety and complete context there is a much better understanding of the actual reality of why or how things were handled in the manner that they were..

Yes, Fenton may very well have expressed among the members her concern regarding the shooter.. LE were not notified and here is the reality of how these procedures work and there are absolute mandatory criteria to be present for Fenton to have been within her ethical and legal rights..

"Fenton made initial phone calls about engaging the BETA team" in "the first 10 days" of June but it "never came together" because in the period Fenton was having conversations with team members, Holmes began the process of dropping out of school, a source told KMGH.

Sources told the station that when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team "had no control over him."

KMGH said sources did not know what Holmes told Fenton that sparked her concern.

"It takes more than just statements," one source told the station, explaining that Holmes would have had to tell Fenton "something specific" before she would have to report it to law enforcement.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/?c=&page=2

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 04:29 AM
Video discussion mentioning BETA, Involuntary Detention, and Gray Areas

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/48474986/#48474986

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 05:17 AM
Tough Legal Issues Converge in Colorado Shooting Case

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/us/james-holmes-case-raises-complex-legal-issues.html

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 05:53 AM
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So we`re trying to figure out what is the law here when it comes to a psychiatrist notifying somebody about a patient. And here`s the statute. We looked it up.

Doctors, nurses, mental health professionals and their staff are required to break confidentiality and warn of potential victim and alert law enforcement if a serious threat is suspected.

So forensic psychologist Jeff Gardere, spell that out to us in plain English. What does that mean?

JEFF GARDERE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It means it`s not just the talk, because somebody could be kidding at the time, or maybe they`re upset for five or ten minutes and then maybe take back the threat that they`re making to hurt someone else.

But it also has to be that that psychiatrist, a mental health professional in their mind, in their professional view, feel that this person is a legitimate threat to somebody else out there.

So it`s not just about warning the victim, but it`s also protecting the victim. And that means detaining that person who makes the threat, contacting the police, and warning the victim. And you have to try to do all three.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think that there was enough information -- or just do we not know? In other words, take a look at him in court. He had the red hair. He had the bizarre expressions. We`re going to show you that in a second. Take one look at this guy, you go this guy`s off. This guy -- but is that enough? Let`s say he walked into her office looking like that and saying crazy things. Is that enough?

GARDERE: Well, using the armchair quarterbacking, looking back at that -- I wasn`t there, of course, I would say that is a definite, no pun intended, red flag that here`s a person who`s psychotic, changing his appearance and may have said that he`s losing it. He has a lot of rage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but let me say this, there are a lot of people walking around all over the place -- and I see them on the streets every day -- with purple hair, red hair, green hair. I mean, people do dye their hair. So it`s hard to know for sure.

GARDERE: But this person was seeing a psychiatrist. So there was a mental health issue.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1208/02/ijvm.01.html


more at the link. I posted it here but there was discussion regarding Dr. Fenton, the University, lawsuits etc.

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 06:05 AM
Ever notice how easily people will point fingers at the mother especially if she knew this was going to happen? Turn it around, if she didn't know, too bad she's got no recourse.

Well, I've strained my brain enough for one day.

Thanks for pointing that out CM. For all we know perhaps the family was the one who contacted the school so they can get him "help".

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 06:13 AM
Colorado shooting: It’s hard to spot threats, experts say


Experts on threat assessment say it’s an inherently tricky enterprise. They say the most dangerous people do not fit a simple profile. Some of the personality traits common among mass murderers are indistinguishable from the characteristics of harmless individuals who sit quietly in their room playing video games.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/colorado-shooting-its-hard-to-spot-threats-experts-say/2012/08/02/gJQA1fj1SX_story.html

Liz
08-03-2012, 06:15 AM
Video discussion mentioning BETA, Involuntary Detention, and Gray Areas

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/48474986/#48474986

In that video, a statement made by the UC Chancellor, Don Elliman, is read; and shown on screen:

"I believe, until it's been demonstrated otherwise, that our people did what they should have done."

Hmm, isn't that slightly reminiscent of what Penn State administrators were espousing, back when the sexual abuse scandal broke there? Or am I imagining that?

Elliman's little caveat, "until it's been demonstrated otherwise", is at the very least a yellow flag to me. MOO

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 06:42 AM
I keep wondering if Fenton was really treating JH or whether the defense was calling it "treatment" in order to suppress the release of the notebook. If he'd had informal interactions with her or taken a class with her only. Just conjecture, as most of my "this case"-related thoughts are. (Hope they lift that gag order!!)

21merc7
08-03-2012, 06:48 AM
IMO... this last article about the BETA Team
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31328515/detail.html

I think Lynne Fenton should hire now her own personal Lawyer. IMO This comment below sounds like some people could be staying away from her or i could be wrong? I dont know but am confused why would they think it is "unusual" to get a call from Fenton

One source said: “It’s very unusual to get a call from Dr. Fenton. (But) there was no clear red-flag thrown at the CU assessment team. It wasn’t a warning.”

I think she needs a lawyer too, at least just to consult with at this point. If anything in this article is true.

From the article, just a few paragraphs around the one above"


Sources with knowledge of the investigation also told CALL7 Investigators that along with expressing concerns about Holmes possibly being a threat to others, Fenton was “gathering information to couple with what she knew to … make an educated decision about what to do concerning Holmes.”

One source said: “It’s very unusual to get a call from Dr. Fenton. (But) there was no clear red-flag thrown at the CU assessment team. It wasn’t a warning.”

Another source said: “The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns about what he told her and that he could potentially harm others. She was trying to figure out what to do.”

No idea who the source is, but could the "very unusual to get a call" mean a call about an individual and getting together the Beta Team? What I mean is, they have very few if any students that appear to be a threat.

Either way, it does seem to imply that the Team did not have regular meetings, guidelines, updated training. If they did, I do not know.

Liz
08-03-2012, 06:49 AM
Goodness, Deadcat, I'd not even thought of that. You never know.
And, we may never know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. :denied:

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 06:56 AM
What do you all think this means re Fenton's call to BETA:
“The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns "

What kind of info would she be gathering? Certainly not about the BETA process since she was instrumental in developing it, right? If she was his therapist, wouldn't she assume she knew much more about JH than a BETA team would? Was she checking with them so see if anyone else had reported him?

21merc7
08-03-2012, 07:02 AM
What do you all think this means re Fenton's call to BETA:
“The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns "

What kind of info would she be gathering? Certainly not about the BETA process since she was instrumental in developing it, right? If she was his therapist, wouldn't she assume she knew much more about JH than a BETA team would? Was she checking with them so see if anyone else had reported him?

That comment stuck out to me too. I don't know what it means. See if he was talking to any other doc? See if anyone else noticed anything in his behavior, any students said anything to anyone? See what their legal position on what to do is? (That one would be bad since it is her team.)

The comment makes no sense. What do all of you think it means?

21merc7
08-03-2012, 07:24 AM
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-threat-assessment-teams-colorado-shooting-20120802,0,1436527.story

Well, this article isn't helpful. I learned that threat assessment teams have chat boards, and if you read those, they have been successful at preventing this kind of thing from happening.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:41 AM
I did not know about 2010:
Fenton’s expertise and knowledge about potential student threats was surely influenced in part by a 2010 weapon incident that occurred on the University of Colorado’s Anschutz Medical Campus. In that situation the Colorado campus experienced its first illegal weapons possession crime according to the campus’ federal Clery crime statistics report.

That 2010 weapons possession crime on campus helped prompt Fenton and others to form the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, also known as BETA,

The concern now is that a college has a duty to inform the general public or police of dangerous students even if the student has withdrawn from school and exited the campus grounds permanently. Yet that didn’t happen in Aurora, Colorado.

http://www.examiner.com/article/james-holmes-psychiatrist-disclosures-highlight-the-failure-of-beta-campus

21merc7
08-03-2012, 07:45 AM
I keep wondering if Fenton was really treating JH or whether the defense was calling it "treatment" in order to suppress the release of the notebook. If he'd had informal interactions with her or taken a class with her only. Just conjecture, as most of my "this case"-related thoughts are. (Hope they lift that gag order!!)

I've questioned this too. If you look at the links in the doc thread, her bio states she is there for 15-20 graduate students. The scheduling has her available only on Wednesdays. How does that work out? How much do you know about any given 15-20 student? Granted JH has only been there since November.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:46 AM
Indeed I am WOW if it was not a sad story that could be a stand up routine, obserdity at its finest
has no set policies or procedures on when people should report threats or when to convene the team when threats are brought forward, a CALL7 investigation found.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:51 AM
so did DA Chambers already examine the notebook? what happen to the Gag Order? LOL...


Arapahoe County District Attorney Carol Chambers disputed news reports that the notebook contained descriptions of an attack.

Read more: http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_21190648/colorado-shooting-suspect-be-formally-charged#ixzz22SXU5gpV

:what::what::what:

People's response number 3 on this court docs said :

contents were secured and not examine and held for potential in camera review
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf
Funny

In this article Febuary look at the picture of District Attorney Carol Chambers, looks like she had a folder with 6 pages in it! For filing 142 charges it looks llike with a manilla folder with a few sheets in it she appears to be pretty confident!

Usually they are rolling in binders for ONE charge!
HA!

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 07:53 AM
Colorado shooting: What can college threat-assessment teams do?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-threat-assessment-teams-colorado-shooting-20120802,0,1436527.story

Well, this article isn't helpful. I learned that threat assessment teams have chat boards, and if you read those, they have been successful at preventing this kind of thing from happening.

This article is not reassuring either. It talks about an online tool. Students also have access to it. Not sure how that helps if and when the student who threatened knows he's being talked about and watched. :waitasec:


Utah State's University's Behavioral Intervention Team, or BIT, includes Olsen, USU's Police Chief and representatives from the school's counseling center, disability resource center, and faculty. Olsen said the team meets at least once each month to review reports of students who have exhibited alarming behavior and to decide if counseling or police intervention are necessary.

The university uses an online tool to create "Student of Concern" reports, Olsen said. He said the majority of reports are made by professors and faculty members, but the system is also available for students who are worried about their friends, roommates or classmates.

Team members are alerted when a report is filed and the USU Police department monitors the reports "24/7" in case of an emergency, Olsen said. The BIT is not intended to be punitive, but instead to help students receive the help that they need.

"It's not used as a vehicle to suspend students from school," Olsen said. "Usually it deals with threats of violence or threats to cause harm to other people or themselves."

Randall agreed, saying that in most cases police action is not required and the team will work with counselors and campus services to help students.

"We're here to support students," he said. "We want students to succeed."

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=21536259

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 07:57 AM
Funny

In this article Febuary look at the picture of District Attorney Carol Chambers, looks like she had a folder with 6 pages in it! For filing 142 charges it looks llike with a manilla folder with a few sheets in it she appears to be pretty confident!

Usually they are rolling in binders for ONE charge!
HA!

That was just for the arraignment and filings would have already been done prior to the court appearance, imo.

This wasn't a trial.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:28 AM
Kind of some parallels
Ruled Loughner was incompetent to stand trial

While Loughner had friends in high school, neighbors noted that in the years following he would keep to himself and not respond to others

Loughner attended Mountain View High School, and dropped out in 2006

Was fired from his job at a Quinoas restaurant

College told Loughner that if he wanted to come back to school, he needed to resolve his code of conduct violations and obtain a mental health clearance (indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, that his presence did not constitute a danger to himself or others).

Loughner and his parents met with campus administrators and Loughner indicated he would withdraw from the college.
[
He purchased the semi-automatic handgun

The picture as "smirking and creepy, with hollow eyes ablaze,"

On June 26, 2011, Judge Burns ruled that prison doctors could forcibly medicate Loughner with antipsychotic drugs in order to make him fit to stand trial.[86] [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner#Personal_background

It was like he was in his own world.”

Loughery’s bizarre behavior. “He was creepy

Among other items, officials discovered an envelope with the words "I planned ahead,"

One video consists of a mix between delusional rants and harrowing warnings.
I can’t trust the current government because of the ramifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/01/10/jared-lee-loughner-s-mental-state.html

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:39 AM
In that video, a statement made by the UC Chancellor, Don Elliman, is read; and shown on screen:

"I believe, until it's been demonstrated otherwise, that our people did what they should have done."

Hmm, isn't that slightly reminiscent of what Penn State administrators were espousing, back when the sexual abuse scandal broke there? Or am I imagining that?

Elliman's little caveat, "until it's been demonstrated otherwise", is at the very least a yellow flag to me. MOO
RE: Holmes reaching out to his doc

Lets not forget "the package" that when story first broke it had been there a week. Then there was confusion when it got there. Then there was may have been the same day. Now it is it was immediately investigated and turned over to authorities within hours.

Lets be honest with a history (admin) of mistatements I think it ok to conclude that the only reason why they had to admit to the package even exisitng was it was found during the sweep of the mailroom.

Holmes was crying out for hlep - and even while sitting in jail he wanted to make sure his doctor got the notebook.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0726/Shooting-suspect-James-Holmes-described-killings-in-package-video

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Specualtion:

Sounds like a lawyer talking no ? just say
Elliman's little caveat, "until it's been demonstrated otherwise", is at the very least a yellow flag to me. MOO

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:46 AM
I've questioned this too. If you look at the links in the doc thread, her bio states she is there for 15-20 graduate students. The scheduling has her available only on Wednesdays. How does that work out? How much do you know about any given 15-20 student? Granted JH has only been there since November.
I think the only way to do that is to see everyone bi-weekly,

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:52 AM
Committees! (Beta)

The group then decides the level of risk and devises a strategy on how to help the individual while protecting the college community,

HA! How does one do that, when , it has been reported, this particular Committee had no plans made!

21merc7
08-03-2012, 09:00 AM
James Holmes court case: Dr. Lynne Fenton walked fine line in reporting on Aurora shooting suspect

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/james-holmes-court-case-dr-lynne-fenton-walked-fine-line-in-reporting-on-aurora-shooting-suspect

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 10:08 AM
Just saw this, interesting from ohter thread:

Chief Executive Officer Chad Weinman said despite its name, the urban assault vest is not bulletproof, but is simply a vest made for carrying accessories.

Media gave us this notion he was bulletproofed to dealth! This is from place that sold it.

Takes me back to it being a cosutme related to the delusion as oppossed to him armouring up ?

songline
08-03-2012, 11:22 AM
You don't know he wasn't medicated. We don't know when their contact ended. There could have been phone calls from her Really, we don't know anything. I think wanting to sue without all the facts (or any) is very unrealistic and just an emotional hail mary.


It is true that we do not know a lot.
It is also true when they have nothing to hide they do not button up and request that the others button up too.

Having said this..
we still don’t know a lot.
I feel strongly about SOMETHING STINKS...
And it is more then only the shooter....

songline
08-03-2012, 11:26 AM
He's still her son who was treated by a doctor connected to the school. This doctor did try to get a BETA team together, but it didn't happen fast enough, and then her son still in a dangerous state received no follow up before he was "allowed", or maybe urged, to drop out of school. Consequently, her son may now spend the rest of his life in prison, or even face the DP. Tell me she can in someway sue the doctor or the school. ????????????

ITA. You are thinking like a parent. As am I. :)

songline
08-03-2012, 11:28 AM
Questions !

Can the parents file for Full Legal Adult Guardianship of JH since JH is filing for insanity which falls under disability ? If yes, after filing for guardianship, can they file lawsuit on behalf of JH to the school or doctor just in case they are at fault?

:seeya:

When someone cannot act in their won best interest - a legal guardian must.
The answer is YES.

songline
08-03-2012, 11:31 AM
a psychotherapist has a duty to warn even if the actual victim(s) was not foreseeable. ....
..the therapist’s duty to warn is implicitly contained within the guidelines for [B]disclosure of confidential information without the consent of the client:
-Duty to warn is among the few --
[/COLOR]--when there is cause for serious concern about a client harming someone, the clinician must breach confidentiality
--Explicit in the court’s decision was the principle that the confidentiality of the therapeutic relationship is subordinate to the safety of society and her members
[u....... a clinician's professional judgment is key. They have to identify whether there is a sense of urgency, and if there is a likelihood of a patient acting on the thoughts. A patient's history of violence, mental illness and substance abuse is also considered, according to the Journal of Family Practice.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/health/therapist-violence/index.html?npt=NP

rl]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology[/url]

I totally agree.
And spiraling down that far, does not happen that fast, without visibility by trained eyes.

songline
08-03-2012, 11:33 AM
It's all very sad. They've lost their son. Lots of people lose children. Doesn't mean they are owed anything monetarily. Just because she was seeing him on a professional level doesn't mean she is responsible for his behavior. She could have been concerned about him because he admitted to fantasizing about killing all of his classmates. Doesn't mean that is a threat.

What if she prescribed him antipsychotics that he chose not to take, and the voices in his head told him to commit the crime. Is she still responsible?
Not because she was seeing him NO :nono:
But For Gross Negligence :yes:

As a parent I would look into that with a microscope - because naturally they will hide.

songline
08-03-2012, 11:41 AM
Are you feeling what i am feeling about this article?


CU Threat BETA Team Has No Guidelines
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31328515/detail.html
DENVER --
The team charged with identifying and preventing threats like last month’s mass shoot at an Aurora theater has no set policies or procedures on when people should report threats or when to convene the team when threats are brought forward, a CALL7 investigation found.
.....
But University of Colorado officials confirmed Thursday that the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team has no guidelines or policies that dictate when people should report threats or when the team should convene to discuss them. Sources said the team was never convened to address Fenton's concerns about Holmes because he left school June 10.

Since 2010, when Fenton helped to form the BETA team, there have been about a dozen calls to team chairman -- currently Larry Loften -- about various threats, according to a CU spokeswoman. She declined to say whether Fenton’s calls about Holmes were in those dozen calls.

Sources say Loften was one of the people Fenton called with her concerns and questions about Holmes. CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia caught up with Loften after work to ask him about the team's policies and procedures but he declined. But a university spokeswoman said the threat assessment has no defined policy or threshold of when the team should be convened or notified of threats.

Sources with knowledge of the investigation also told CALL7 Investigators that along with expressing concerns about Holmes possibly being a threat to others, Fenton was “gathering information to couple with what she knew to … make an educated decision about what to do concerning Holmes.”

One source said: “It’s very unusual to get a call from Dr. Fenton. (But) there was no clear red-flag thrown at the CU assessment team. It wasn’t a warning.”
Another source said: “The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns about what he told her and that he could potentially harm others. She was trying to figure out what to do.”

I see many RED flags all over the place...

How about common sense, human decency, responsibility, accountability.
So they teach Psychology, I do not care about their rules. THE DID know better.
and IMO a very high % in the PSYC field need a shrink.

When they see signs of a problem they CAN NOT turn the other cheek, go on vacation, without handling this, etc…

songline
08-03-2012, 11:44 AM
so did DA Chambers already examine the notebook? what happen to the Gag Order? LOL...


Arapahoe County District Attorney Carol Chambers disputed news reports that the notebook contained descriptions of an attack.

Read more: http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_21190648/colorado-shooting-suspect-be-formally-charged#ixzz22SXU5gpV

:what::what::what:

People's response number 3 on this court docs said :

contents were secured and not examine and held for potential in camera review
http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/2012-07-27%2012CR1522%20People's%20response%20to%20D11.pdf

Maybe DA is more worried about what funds may be cut off from the Government..:waitasec:
To cover anything is not LAW...it may be interest.

songline
08-03-2012, 11:52 AM
In that video, a statement made by the UC Chancellor, Don Elliman, is read; and shown on screen:

"I believe, until it's been demonstrated otherwise, that our people did what they should have done."


Hmm, isn't that slightly reminiscent of what Penn State administrators were espousing, back when the sexual abuse scandal broke there? Or am I imagining that?

Elliman's little caveat, "until it's been demonstrated otherwise", is at the very least a yellow flag to me. MOOWhat else can they say???
Button up your lips everyone No talking......

Nothing to hide, nowhere to run....

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 01:00 PM
That comment stuck out to me too. I don't know what it means. See if he was talking to any other doc? See if anyone else noticed anything in his behavior, any students said anything to anyone? See what their legal position on what to do is? (That one would be bad since it is her team.)

The comment makes no sense. What do all of you think it means?

I'm going with THIS one...

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 01:07 PM
I did not know about 2010:
Fenton’s expertise and knowledge about potential student threats was surely influenced in part by a 2010 weapon incident that occurred on the University of Colorado’s Anschutz Medical Campus. In that situation the Colorado campus experienced its first illegal weapons possession crime according to the campus’ federal Clery crime statistics report.

http://www.examiner.com/article/james-holmes-psychiatrist-disclosures-highlight-the-failure-of-beta-campus

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/InstitutionalResearch/Documents/Clery/StatsAMC10Report.pdf

Has anyone found more specifics about this 2010 incident? Did it make the local news/campus newsletter? I have heard about some grad school departments being known for high levels of suicides, so it's not that large of a step for me to wonder whether this department suffered from a mix of conditions which lead to a gun buying pattern. (Not saying there is a pattern or that the 2010 incident was even the same department, just wondering...as usual, with little real info...)

orora
08-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by DeadCat
What do you all think this means re Fenton's call to BETA:
“The calls were two-fold – to gather information and to report her concerns "

What kind of info would she be gathering? Certainly not about the BETA process since she was instrumental in developing it, right? If she was his therapist, wouldn't she assume she knew much more about JH than a BETA team would? Was she checking with them so see if anyone else had reported him?



That comment stuck out to me too. I don't know what it means. See if he was talking to any other doc? See if anyone else noticed anything in his behavior, any students said anything to anyone? See what their legal position on what to do is? (That one would be bad since it is her team.)

The comment makes no sense. What do all of you think it means?

Check his past history of MI and medications prescribed? Would they have access to all of the past info if it had not been willingly disclosed them previously? That is, if he had a past history.. If he was exhibiting signs, you'd seek out his previous doctor to confirm what you were dealing with.

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Wasn't sure which thread to put this under. I was just wondering about the 2010 incident (do we need a Anschutz Medical Center thread?) and wondered where the Anschutz name came from). I don't think I'm "victim sleuthing" to say that in 2000, they got a donation from the Anschutz Foundation.

Philip Anschutz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia