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JBean
08-02-2012, 08:10 PM
What did or didn't the University and the Threat Assessment Team do or not do? This seems to be an important issue. Please discuss here.

shadowraiths
08-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Will U of Colorado Face Duty-to-Warn Suits re Off-Campus Movie Theater Shooting Spree? ( link (http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/article/movie_theater/) )
By Martha Neil, ABAJournal, TORT LAW
1 hour, 5 minutes ago


It isn't clear what was said, or what sparked Fenton's apparent concern. However, sources said the BETA team did not pursue the issue further after Holmes withdrew from his neuroscience graduate program around June 12, because the university no longer had any control over him, the station reports.

[...]

Like Spodak, an expert interviewed by CNN said a student's decision to drop out shouldn't automatically conclude the school's response to a psychiatrist's warning, although he pointed out that the facts of the Colorado situation aren't known.

"The decision to close a case is made based on assessment that the person no longer poses a threat of violence or significant disruption to the campus or to any other identifiable target," said Gene Deisinger. A former clinical psychologist, he is currently Virginia Tech's deputy chief of police, as well as in charge of the school's threat assessment team.

[...]

While winning may be an uphill legal battle, the plaintiffs and slain victims will likely be very sympathetic to jurors.

Virginia Tech, when faced with a similar situation, albeit on campus, where its duty to students was more clearcut, opted to settle quickly rather than defend such litigation, and the University of Colorado may do so, too, predicts partner Barry Pollack of Miller & Chevalier.

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-03-2012, 01:46 PM
I posted this yesterday in the Dr. Fenton thread but I think this is the spot where it really should have gone.

I would be interested in knowing more about the Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team (BETA), though that information might not be available at this time. I am curious about the mission of the team and its stated guidelines.

I imagine that "threat" in the team name refers certainly to written or stated threats that cause concern but are not of the level that would obligate one to report the threats to LE. However, since the team name includes"behavioral evaluation", I wonder if the focus of the team also extends to include the posing of a threat, in the more generalized sense, to self, others, and/or the educational process.

Dr. Fenton made separate calls to speak about JH with several members of the BETA team during the first ten days of June.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nationa...urora-shooting

To me, the dates of these calls would be key, given that JH dropped out of his program of studies on June 10. If Dr. Fenton made the calls during the first few days of the month of June, for example, why did the team not just go ahead and meet? The mere fact that Dr. Fenton, with all of her professional background and credentials, was calling this student to the attention of others on the team, if even informally by phone, might suggest that it would have behooved the group to convene.

Seems to me a smooth-functioning team of this nature would have a guideline in place specifying that it get together within a set period of time (2-3 days from the date of expression of concern, for example) to discuss the issues at hand. True, these professionals are busy people, but evaluation of a threat, in whatever sense of the word, could be prioritized imo.

I think it would "look better" now (hindsight being 20/20) had the team met---IF there was time for it to have done so before JH withdrew from the school. It might not have changed a thing, but at least the team that Dr. Fenton helped to establish in 2010 for the purpose of intervention would have been on record as having mobilized.

February
08-03-2012, 02:56 PM
SHIRLEY WYGAL, MOTHER OF VICTIM (via phone): Well, it certainly changed the way I feel. I don`t feel the same today that I did yesterday. And because I can -- I can deal with a random act of violence, but not with a preventable loss of my daughter. And I really think the university dropped the ball. That`s just my personal opinion.

And I think that I`d like to see the psychiatrist investigated thoroughly. And I`m sure she will be. And I`d like to see the university`s responsibility investigated thoroughly. And I`m sure it will be. But a preventable massacre is pretty much unforgivable.

But I want to go to Shirley Wygal, the mother of one of the beautiful young women who died, Rebecca Wingo. Your thoughts about this. I know you want to weigh in.

WYGAL: I do. The caller asks why the universities don`t stop these things. And I just spent eight years in a university myself. And the answer is cronyism. They`re a very tight-knit group.

And I went in and looked at the ethical principles of the American Psychiatric Association. And just so you know what their ethical code requires, she -- she did not have to report anything. Unless he came out and said, "I am going to kill someone," she didn`t have to report anything.

Apparently, she saw red flags. She saw someone changing. Someone who is obviously disturbed and making big changes. You don`t drop out of school at the level he was at. That just doesn`t happen. So red flags, she saw them. She said something to her colleagues. They didn`t do anything about it. But even in the code of ethics it says that she can -- she can ethically hold the right to dissent within the framework of the law from giving them anything.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1208/02/ijvm.01.html


I am very impressed with her thinking and comments.

February
08-03-2012, 03:15 PM
I think she needs a lawyer too, at least just to consult with at this point. If anything in this article is true.

.

At this point, we dont know up to what extent she did try her best to get help for JH upon "feeling" that he could be a danger to others but with things coming out, her best choice is to get her own representation outside the school IMO.

21merc7
08-03-2012, 03:32 PM
At this point, we dont know up to what extent she did try her best to get help for JH upon "feeling" that he could be a danger to others but with things coming out, her best choice is to get her own representation outside the school IMO.

Yep. She needs the best attorney in town, even if she did everything right.

I tell everyone, get a lawyer asap, be it criminal, civil, or family law, always get a lawyer. Some how, some way, you can get one, even if you can't afford one, you can get one. (Although I think she can afford one.)

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 03:34 PM
Asking myself why all eyes are on DrF now. I've heard how slow it is to navigate through a school's procedures in a situation like this.

Surprises me if there's no procedures in place that support the idea of "accountability" of the person reporting a concern to the BETA team and who they should report it to in written form.

What I'm trying to say is DrF put the team together, she's the doctor who has concerns, and yet she doesn't have another person to take over from there. She's making phone calls to get this team together to do something and it seems to go no where. It's all up to her. (She only sees patients on Wednesdays? How much is on her plate?) It sounds so loose in procedure for emergency situations. Was everything communicated via phone calls?

February
08-03-2012, 03:38 PM
Yep. She needs the best attorney in town, even if she did everything right.

I tell everyone, get a lawyer asap, be it criminal, civil, or family law, always get a lawyer. Some how, some way, you can get one, even if you can't afford one, you can get one. (Although I think she can afford one.)

ITA.
it's gonna be a High Profile case so high profile lawyers will be lining up to represent her just to join the show.... ..Free Advertising :)

perhaps she needs to dial Gloria Allred's number now? :)

February
08-03-2012, 03:44 PM
Asking myself why all eyes are on DrF now. I've heard how slow it is to navigate through a school's procedures in a situation like this.

Surprises me if there's no procedures in place that support the idea of "accountability" of the person reporting a concern to the BETA team and who they should report it to in written form.

What I'm trying to say is DrF put the team together, she's the doctor who has concerns, and yet she doesn't have another person to take over from there. She's making phone calls to get this team together to do something and it seems to go no where. It's all up to her. (She only sees patients on Wednesdays? How much is on her plate?) It sounds so loose in procedure for emergency situations. Was everything communicated via phone calls?



IMO, they may have internal guidelines but they possibly dont want to release it because of the Privacy Issues ( FERPA AND HIPAA ) . If Fenton is treating JH, up to what extent BETA can help without looking at the medical records of JH and then we go back also to, are they even allowed to see his medical records? Did the students sign a release that they are allowing BETA Team to look at their personal Medical Records with their own Psychiatrist at the University sharing it to them?

February
08-03-2012, 03:49 PM
The Team consists of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Office of Student Life, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Life, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Pages/default.aspx


are these people even allowed to see or hear JH's Medical/Patient Records of Fenton?

edited to add : i think but i am not sure that the BETA Team site got edited :(

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 03:51 PM
Procedures that have accountability to protect from cronyism is maybe what I'm trying to say.

February
08-03-2012, 03:59 PM
Procedures that have accountability to protect from cronyism is maybe what I'm trying to say.

I doubt the school will even provide that ..IMO

orora
08-03-2012, 04:06 PM
Huge issues involved here that go beyond what what anyone would expect a university to be doing. In the Penn State example, who would expect a university to cover up chidren being raped? Who would expect a university to cover up their degree of involvement with a student who goes on to be a mass murderer? We would expect that the damage was sufficvient that whatever happened originally, would be fully disclosed to establish rules and procedures to prevent it from happening again. That was discussed and should have been the result of Columbine. ( a few miles up the road)

Instead what was learned? How to divert the potential danger to react elsewhere besides the school and that is the end of things? Report him to Police will cause the opposite? Silence is best?

When Fenton contacted several team members, the danger was already deemed significant imo.

The internal procedure leading to dropping out, evidence of employing an alternate process to minimize risk to school.

The university should bite the bullet now and drop damage control. Penn State got what it deserved more for the coverup than the initial crimes. The end results here if this process of protecting those involved continues and is eventually proven could be/should be far greater than Penn. Risk criminal charges.. for a few isolated individuals now, or a complete shut down of the University if forced to disclose and uncovered later.

21merc7
08-03-2012, 04:16 PM
The Team consists of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Office of Student Life, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Life, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Pages/default.aspx


are these people even allowed to see or hear JH's Medical/Patient Records of Fenton?

edited to add : i think but i am not sure that the BETA Team site got edited :(

I think you are right on page scrubbing. Just google: uc denver beta team, you'll see some things.

Then look at what was published two days ago:

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/newsreleases/Pages/BETA-team-response.aspx

21merc7
08-03-2012, 04:17 PM
Huge issues involved here that go beyond what what anyone would expect a university to be doing. In the Penn State example, who would expect a university to cover up chidren being raped? Who would expect a university to cover up their degree of involvement with a student who goes on to be a mass murderer? We would expect that the damage was sufficvient that whatever happened originally, would be fully disclosed to establish rules and procedures to prevent it from happening again. That was discussed and should have been the result of Columbine. ( a few miles up the road)

Instead what was learned? How to divert the potential danger to react elsewhere besides the school and that is the end of things? Report him to Police will cause the opposite? Silence is best?

When Fenton contacted several team members, the danger was already deemed significant imo.

The internal procedure leading to dropping out, evidence of employing an alternate process to minimize risk to school.

The university should bite the bullet now and drop damage control. Penn State got what it deserved more for the coverup than the initial crimes. The end results here if this process of protecting those involved continues and is eventually proven could be/should be far greater than Penn. Risk criminal charges.. for a few isolated individuals now, or a complete shut down of the University if forced to disclose and uncovered later.


Much as I am hoping the school has nothing to hide, I have to admit is is not looking good. I'll keep some hope until we find out more.

February
08-03-2012, 04:19 PM
I think you are right on page scrubbing. Just google: uc denver beta team, you'll see some things.

Then look at what was published two days ago:

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/newsreleases/Pages/BETA-team-response.aspx

Ty!
might as well copy and paste it here now before it vanish/change..

UNIVERSITY EXPLAINS HOW BETA TEAM OPERATES
Specific information about how BETA teams have acted in cases can't, by law, be discussed

8/1/2012
DENVER (Aug. 1, 2012) -- We are unable to respond to specific inquiries about James Holmes due to court orders and other laws that protect the confidentiality of student information. Nor can we discuss how BETA teams have acted in other cases involving our students, faculty and employees. At the same time, we wish to help you understand how the University’s BETA team operates.

A BETA Team stands for a Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment Team. It is a resource consisting of representatives from various offices within the University of Colorado that exists to provide information to faculty, staff, or students who are concerned about a member of the campus community.

Any person in the University community has the ability to contact the Chair of the BETA Team, or other member, to report a concern.

The BETA Team is not a law enforcement mechanism, but instead allows members of the university community to confer and collaborate about how to provide support and resources to those involved.

Who will participate and what the BETA team might do in a particular case would vary depending upon the issue brought to a member’s attention. For example, if a student is concerned about her roommate and stress that she is experiencing around the time of finals, members of the BETA team might confer with officials in student housing or the student’s department.

The BETA team is not an administrative, treatment, or disciplinary body, and its purpose is to provide support, information, and referrals to those dealing with difficult situations.

jjenny
08-03-2012, 04:20 PM
Once he dropped out of school, this BETA team had no control over him. So I am still waiting for answers as to what they could have possibly done.
Considering that once he dropped out, he is no longer a student.

orora
08-03-2012, 04:25 PM
Holmes was reported and deemed a danger while still a student. Dropping out made him no less a danger. The rest is legalistic bs coverup and damage control. Too late to even offer that up as an excuse imo..

(the road to Penn State)

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-03-2012, 04:25 PM
The Team consists of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Office of Student Life, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Life, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Pages/default.aspx


are these people even allowed to see or hear JH's Medical/Patient Records of Fenton?

edited to add : i think but i am not sure that the BETA Team site got edited :(

The question you raise is one I have, also.

I am wondering about the general relationship between doctor/patient confidentiality and the functioning of a university team that assembles to evaluate threats and assess behavior.

Is this a sticky area that could potentially cause a group to think twice before convening, since some concerns may be more clear-cut and some more questionable?

shadowraiths
08-03-2012, 04:28 PM
She only sees patients on Wednesdays?
I highly doubt this is the case. Wednesdays are her office hours. What that means is, outside of classes and her patients, Wednesday office hours are available for students to make appointments regarding a myriad of things, to include course work questions, and even talking with her to see about getting therapy.

Btw, and aside, her school bio is back up ( link (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/psychiatry/Faculty/Pages/Fenton,%20Lynne.aspx) )

jjenny
08-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Holmes was reported and deemed a danger while still a student. Dropping out made him no less a danger. The rest is legalistic bs coverup and damage control. Too late to even offer that up as an excuse imo..

But since they have no control over him whatsoever, what exactly could they do? That's what I am trying to understand.

21merc7
08-03-2012, 04:32 PM
But since they have no control over him whatsoever, what exactly could they do? That's what I am trying to understand.

If they knew of his plans, they should call LE. That is what the entire point is. Why didn't they call LE. School or not, there is an obligation to protect him or others from harm, IF they knew. That's the if, did they know?

jjenny
08-03-2012, 04:33 PM
If they knew of his plans, the could call LE. That is what the entire point is. Why didn't they call LE. School or not, there is an obligation to protect him or others, IF they knew.

Well, that is a big IF. She isn't liable unless he communicated to her a serious threat about specific person or persons. Whatever he could have been communicating to her could very well be not a serious threat about specific person or persons.

21merc7
08-03-2012, 04:35 PM
Well, that is a big IF. She isn't liable unless he communicated to her a serious threat about specific person or persons. Whatever he could have been communicating to her could very well be not a serious threat about specific person or persons.

Exactly!

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 04:37 PM
BBL = Be Back Later

I have no food! I'm off to grocerie shop.

February
08-03-2012, 04:43 PM
But if you will think about it, the words are JH could be potentially a danger to others from the mouth of a Psychiatrist....On her career and expertise and have direct contact with JH and have access to his Medical Records as a patient, she will not simply say he is potentially a dangers to others without having some valid points or evaluations leading her to say that. IMO..

But this is just really my opinion...

orora
08-03-2012, 04:44 PM
Holmes should have been reported to authorities, absolves the university should anything happen and involves law enforcement who have the power to force whatever issues and procedures as required. Columbine did not happen so close by just to have this slip by under the wire. Thats why threat assesment teams are organized and implimented. It is for everyone's safety. Diverting the danger by pointing the gun elsewhere was not the intended purpose.

We did learn from Columbine, we learned that what we are seeing and hearing here is not acceptable. If due to process, it is flawed and needs to be adressed, if due to human error, that needs to be disclosed. The end results of what happened are far to grevious for legalistic maneouvering. How many schools and universities in the country? How often have school shootings happened? We have no process or procedure to deal with it yet?

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-03-2012, 04:51 PM
Asking myself why all eyes are on DrF now. I've heard how slow it is to navigate through a school's procedures in a situation like this.

Surprises me if there's no procedures in place that support the idea of "accountability" of the person reporting a concern to the BETA team and who they should report it to in written form.

What I'm trying to say is DrF put the team together, she's the doctor who has concerns, and yet she doesn't have another person to take over from there. She's making phone calls to get this team together to do something and it seems to go no where. It's all up to her. (She only sees patients on Wednesdays? How much is on her plate?) It sounds so loose in procedure for emergency situations. Was everything communicated via phone calls?

Yes, about the phone calls. I know that steering away from putting confidential information in e-mails is sometimes smart, but with the phone calls that Dr. Fenton made to certain BETA team members in early June, documentation of the calls' content will be lacking, I expect. Phone records will show calls between certain phone numbers were made on certain days at certain times, but as to precisely what was said....

orora
08-03-2012, 05:01 PM
Even the fact several calls were admittedly made denoting the potential for danger, and no follow up ensued soley because of the dropping out process, is a complete abrigation of duty.

The process should not have been curtailed due to internal procedure with no provision for diversion of process to authorities. If sufficient to warrant investigating him prior to dropping out, the need is demonstrated even more so afterwards by that.

Its not right no matter how it is viewed imo. If the Police did not respond, nor found anything to warrant further investigation, that would be their problem, it's part of their job. Members of the University (professionals with concerns) with held that information from the Police and interfered in the ability to stop it.

The University brass has no business defending this on any grounds imo.

(The road to Penn State)

February
08-03-2012, 05:06 PM
The question you raise is one I have, also.

I am wondering about the general relationship between doctor/patient confidentiality and the functioning of a university team that assembles to evaluate threats and assess behavior.

Is this a sticky area that could potentially cause a group to think twice before convening, since some concerns may be more clear-cut and some more questionable?

This document might be helpful

Patient Resources: HIPAA
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996, is a law that protects patient health information and privacy.

University Physicians, Inc., the University of Colorado and the University of Colorado Hospital adhere to HIPAA legislation by establishing policies and procedures to ensure patient confidentiality and the protection of patient information.
http://www.upicolo.org/images/pics/notice_private_practices_v1.pdf
http://www.upicolo.org/patient-resources/hipaa

21merc7
08-03-2012, 05:12 PM
Since we have nothing to go on but speculation, maybe he threatened Fenton?

I have no idea, just thinking why no action was taken. Maybe he just showed her the stick figures. (Still think that was snark though.) Maybe he told her about buying guns and ammo? No specific threat to anyone?

All of the above is just me thinking out loud, no facts, just thoughts.

February
08-03-2012, 05:45 PM
BBL = Be Back Later

I have no food! I'm off to grocerie shop.

You just made me hungry! :cupcake::coffeeup:

21merc7
08-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Interesting post by a post-grad student diagnosed schizophrenic, and thoughts on JH:

http://phenomenologyofmadness.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/maeror-meror-in-mourning/

February
08-03-2012, 05:57 PM
Since we have nothing to go on but speculation, maybe he threatened Fenton?

I have no idea, just thinking why no action was taken. Maybe he just showed her the stick figures. (Still think that was snark though.) Maybe he told her about buying guns and ammo? No specific threat to anyone?

All of the above is just me thinking out loud, no facts, just thoughts.

Interesting read..

11. Psychiatric patients most commonly become the source of malpractice actions if they injure
themselves or others. Psychiatrists may be found liable for damages if psychiatric patients
injure themselves, commit suicide, injure others, elope, prove false imprisonment, or prove
sexual abuse. Psychiatrists should take appropriate steps to avoid such allegations. At all
times, they should use good clinical judgment, and adequately document the risks and
benefits of treatment.

http://www.ablminc.org/A%20Day%20with%20the%20Judges_10-30-09_OKC/Presentations_By_Speakers_pdf/14a_Psychiatry%20Liability-Firestone.pdf
MEDICAL MALPRACTICE SURVIVAL HANDBOOK, ACLM, 2007
Psychiatric malpratice

February
08-03-2012, 06:11 PM
Interesting post by a post-grad student diagnosed schizophrenic, and thoughts on JH:

http://phenomenologyofmadness.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/maeror-meror-in-mourning/

Thank you for the link.

some people think that this JH's school dropping out is just regular and students do that a lot and that this exam is just an ordinary exam.

This is a Neuroscience Phd Program. They are studying on science and the brain and cure and Mental Illnesses. JH is presenting a MicroRNA Biomakers and if anyone search for it, it is a cure for cancer and Billion dollar Pharmacies are on top of this and they believe this is going to be huge in the future.

These graduates could make millions of dollars. This is not an ordinary school, class or exam. Everything here matters. I am not giving an excuse for JH but i could have understand that a failure on this great education is gonna be hard to accept specially for someone who cant find a job other than Mcdonalds. IMO

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 06:39 PM
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/InstitutionalResearch/Documents/Clery/StatsAMC10Report.pdf

Has anyone found more specifics about this 2010 incident? Did it make the local news/campus newsletter? I have heard about some grad school departments being known for high levels of suicides, so it's not that large of a step for me to wonder whether this department suffered from a mix of conditions which lead to a gun buying pattern. (Not saying there is a pattern or that the 2010 incident was even the same department, just wondering...as usual, with little real info...)
I tried to find it but nothing came back! It just struck me as ironic this woman started this Beta , and then they miss the biggest mass murderer for a month and a half, after lying to the world for a week.

Something is amiss..........................

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-03-2012, 06:44 PM
This document might be helpful

Patient Resources: HIPAA
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996, is a law that protects patient health information and privacy.

University Physicians, Inc., the University of Colorado and the University of Colorado Hospital adhere to HIPAA legislation by establishing policies and procedures to ensure patient confidentiality and the protection of patient information.
http://www.upicolo.org/images/pics/notice_private_practices_v1.pdf
http://www.upicolo.org/patient-resources/hipaa


Thank you for this interesting and important link. The linked document states that all of the ways permitted to use and disclose medical information without prior written permission will fall into one of the categories listed in the doc.

Reading the information and just guessing, maybe the categories of treatment alternatives and health-related services cover the BETA team as it discusses private medical information in a group setting, since referrals is one of the things they do.

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 07:18 PM
Interesting post by a post-grad student diagnosed schizophrenic, and thoughts on JH:

http://phenomenologyofmadness.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/maeror-meror-in-mourning/

Back now, and so glad I have food.

Thank You so much for posting this link. It's really heartbreaking. I, for one, don't doubt for a minute that it is possible JH's dropping out was preceded by some urging to find alternative goals in life. The school demands 150% from students, so if you aren't cutting it...

The thinking process explained in the article describes how a revenge and need to prove something is operating and growing without some intervention. I've heard so much about the laws and the teams, and yet clearly this latest tragedy may remind us that the human quality of really caring still matters too.

jjenny
08-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Back now, and so glad I have food.

Thank You so much for posting this link. It's really heartbreaking. I, for one, don't doubt for a minute that it is possible JH's dropping out was preceded by some urging to find alternative goals in life. The school demands 150% from students, so if you aren't cutting it...

The thinking process explained in the article describes how a revenge and need to prove something is operating and growing without some intervention. I've heard so much about the laws and the teams, and yet clearly this latest tragedy may remind us that the human quality of really caring still matters too.

Well if somebody doesn't cut it as a graduate student, they aren't going to cut it as a faculty either. So what would be a point of training someone if they don't cut it? Hypothetically speaking, that is, since there is no evidence anyone tried to urge JH to find alternative goals in life.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:31 PM
A hunch here. I have found it somewhat confusing, that there is this prevalent notion that involuntary commitment equates with locking someone up. It just hit me that it might be, because law-enforcement is often involved. There are thousands of solo practitioners that are in practice, alone.

When we encounter any individual who is in an agitated state and potentially aggressive and dangerous, and feel that they need an additional evaluation in order to assure their safety we called law enforcement for transport. Law enforcement is the taxi. No one, can nicely escort, an aggressive, psychotic, delusional, individual suffering with MI, alone, in our personal car, to take them to assessment in an inpatient facility.

The only role of law enforcement, in involuntary commit ant evaluation, is to escort the individual, safely; in their vehicle because they have the ability to call for backup should the individual become more threatening and or aggressive. They’re trained, in any context, to deal with aggressive individuals. That is the sole reason, law-enforcement, is elicited.

There also appears to be, this notion, that involuntary commitment is used it in some sort of fashion as a punishment. It is only about safety. Frequently, and more often, the involuntary commitment is actually about keeping the escalated individual safe from him or herself.
.
All initiating involuntary commitment is, at the onset, one trained professional, making a judgment call, (determined by much more than an utterance or verbalization of a threat of some sort) that they would like an additional evaluation, by other colleagues, to ascertain if the individual in question might benefit from being in a safe and secure environment.
There is nothing judgmental or punitive about the process.

I also think, in my opinion. There is a misnomer that once a clinician initiates the process it goes on and on. It does not.

Here’s how it works. A practitioner initiates the process. Translation tons of paperwork. Law-enforcement arrives. They transport the patient to the inpatient facility. Upon arrival, the skilled team of professionals further evaluates the individual.

If at that time, they determine that the individual meets criteria to be held possibly against their will, (often if it’s a skilled team that patient will voluntarily admit themselves after they’re they are at the facility) That hold, is intensely reviewed every 24 hours in order to justify possibly holding that individual for another 24 hours. It is serious tough criteria to meet every 24 hours in order to hold for another 24 hours.

I.e: screaming, kicking, threatening, swinging , throwing things, hitting themselves, spitting, flailing around, talking to things that are not there, glaring, rolling around the floor uncontrollably, petrified, body slamming - etc,

You guys need to know, that this system is very tough on holding someone against their will. Every 24 hours the documentation is immense. In fact, this system is geared, to actually make the professional prove that the individual meets criteria to be held for another 24 hours.

That process can only happen for up to 72 hours. If the individual, by 72 hours, in the opinion of the treatment, is not safe to be released, then the court must get involved in order to determine whether the commitment can go further than 72 hours,

It is a very protective of freedom of the individual type of encounter. Its only purpose is safety

Believe it or not, often, after discharge and the patient has settled down therr grateful for having been placed in a safe and secure environment!
None of us can predict the future.

I truly do believe however, that because his delusions were so entwined with opening of the film, that if something that might have intervened, (yes doc you) it might (might) have facilitating his either missing opening night or might have been more stable on July 20.

There are no power control issues here, punishment.
Just IMO!

jjenny
08-03-2012, 07:32 PM
Thank you for the link.

some people think that this JH's school dropping out is just regular and students do that a lot and that this exam is just an ordinary exam.

This is a Neuroscience Phd Program. They are studying on science and the brain and cure and Mental Illnesses. JH is presenting a MicroRNA Biomakers and if anyone search for it, it is a cure for cancer and Billion dollar Pharmacies are on top of this and they believe this is going to be huge in the future.

These graduates could make millions of dollars. This is not an ordinary school, class or exam. Everything here matters. I am not giving an excuse for JH but i could have understand that a failure on this great education is gonna be hard to accept specially for someone who cant find a job other than Mcdonalds. IMO

He didn't invent these microRNA biomakers. He read the literature and was making a presentation-there is no indication that any of these students are on their way to make millions of dollars. Anybody in graduate school should be capable of reading articles and making a presentation.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:40 PM
And I really think the university dropped the ball.

ME TOO!

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 07:43 PM
Was just thinking about how the uni is in a Catch 22. First, they wanted to explain how the program wasn't complicit, and we heard all about how failing this exam would not stop students from continuing. There was remediation and all kinds of solutions, and he could have stayed and retested. It was all HIS idea to drop out, they claimed. Now, they want to say, "We identified him. We knew he was off... It was reported to the BETA team..." Blah, blah. Which is it??

(I can't imagine that after that the end of first year oral exam with professors grilling you is one you a) would want to repeat and b) honestly would be encouraged to do so. I think it is a gate, set up to weed out students. JMO)

February
08-03-2012, 07:45 PM
He didn't invent these microRNA biomakers. He read the literature and was making a presentation-there is no indication that any of these students are on their way to make millions of dollars. Anybody in graduate school should be capable of reading articles and making a presentation.

I didnt say he invented it. :what:

If JH pursue on his PhD program on MicroRNA Biomakers, he can make lots of money out of it, but you cannot pursue that unless you make your own presentation and learn more about it.....

What's your point anyways? all my point is this is not a regular course or study , failing this is going to hard to accept since it it will offer a lot of benefits than just working at Mcdonalds....

IMO

jjenny
08-03-2012, 07:47 PM
Was just thinking about how the uni is in a Catch 22. First, they wanted to explain how the program wasn't complicit, and we heard all about how failing this exam would not stop students from continuing. There was remediation and all kinds of solutions, and he could have stayed and retested. It was all HIS idea to drop out, they claimed. Now, they want to say, "We identified him. We knew he was off... It was reported to the BETA team..." Blah, blah. Which is it??

(I can't imagine that after that the end of first year oral exam with professors grilling you is one you a) would want to repeat and b) honestly would be encouraged to do so. I think it is a gate, set up to weed out students. JMO)

No information came out to indicate that he didn't drop out voluntarily.
Beta team was going to evaluate him, not force him to drop out.

jjenny
08-03-2012, 07:48 PM
I didnt say he invented it. :what:

If JH pursue on his PhD program on MicroRNA Biomakers, he can make lots of money out of it, but you cannot pursue that unless you make your own presentation and learn more about it.....

What's your point anyways? all my point is this is not a regular course or study , failing this is going to hard to accept since it it will offer a lot of benefits than just working at Mcdonalds....

IMO

My point is, that most graduate students do not end up making millions upon graduation. The neuroscience program is one of many. And not something unique. And a lot of things beat working at McDonalds.

February
08-03-2012, 07:49 PM
Was just thinking about how the uni is in a Catch 22. First, they wanted to explain how the program wasn't complicit, and we heard all about how failing this exam would not stop students from continuing. There was remediation and all kinds of solutions, and he could have stayed and retested. It was all HIS idea to drop out, they claimed. Now, they want to say, "We identified him. We knew he was off... It was reported to the BETA team..." Blah, blah. Which is it??

(I can't imagine that after that the end of first year oral exam with professors grilling you is one you a) would want to repeat and b) honestly would be encouraged to do so. I think it is a gate, set up to weed out students. JMO)

another problem is he is on a scholarship grant. As my understanding, those people on scholarship has to maintain a high grade and If he failed this - it is over.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:49 PM
huge issues involved here that go beyond what what anyone would expect a university to be doing. In the penn state example, who would expect a university to cover up chidren being raped? Who would expect a university to cover up their degree of involvement with a student who goes on to be a mass murderer? We would expect that the damage was sufficvient that whatever happened originally, would be fully disclosed to establish rules and procedures to prevent it from happening again. That was discussed and should have been the result of columbine. ( a few miles up the road)

instead what was learned? How to divert the potential danger to react elsewhere besides the school and that is the end of things? Report him to police will cause the opposite? Silence is best?

When fenton contacted several team members, the danger was already deemed significant imo.

The internal procedure leading to dropping out, evidence of employing an alternate process to minimize risk to school.

The university should bite the bullet now and drop damage control. Penn state got what it deserved more for the coverup than the initial crimes. The end results here if this process of protecting those involved continues and is eventually proven could be/should be far greater than penn. Risk criminal charges.. For a few isolated individuals now, or a complete shut down of the university if forced to disclose and uncovered later.
awesome post!

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 07:51 PM
The killer was imperfect, but maybe policy and the manifestation of it providing the right intervention was also flawed. Who knows. We're all here to discuss it. I've been learning from everyone.

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:53 PM
but if you will think about it, the words are jh could be potentially a danger to others from the mouth of a psychiatrist....on her career and expertise and have direct contact with jh and have access to his medical records as a patient, she will not simply say he is potentially a dangers to others without having some valid points or evaluations leading her to say that. Imo..

But this is just really my opinion...
t r a i n i n g !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 07:55 PM
And I really think the university dropped the ball.

ME TOO!

Are you talking to yourself? :blowkiss:

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 07:55 PM
ITA.
it's gonna be a High Profile case so high profile lawyers will be lining up to represent her just to join the show.... ..Free Advertising :)

perhaps she needs to dial Gloria Allred's number now? :)

Noooooooooooo :thud:

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:55 PM
Yes, about the phone calls. I know that steering away from putting confidential information in e-mails is sometimes smart, but with the phone calls that Dr. Fenton made to certain BETA team members in early June, documentation of the calls' content will be lacking, I expect. Phone records will show calls between certain phone numbers were made on certain days at certain times, but as to precisely what was said....
Trust me doc documented EVERY SINGLE word in quotes she said to everyone on BETA team (probably included when she sighed!!) Every syllable!!

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 07:57 PM
You just made me hungry! :cupcake::coffeeup:
Here is my list!

February
08-03-2012, 07:57 PM
My point is, that most graduate students do not end up making millions upon graduation. The neuroscience program is one of many. And not something unique. And a lot of things beat working at McDonalds.


Yes they all dont make millions right away but this can have the potential to make millions if they discover a drug to cure cancers...

and i said they "could" make millions.... you know the word - COULD.

February
08-03-2012, 08:00 PM
.
Beta team was going to evaluate him, not force him to drop out.

where is your link for this?
I want to read it coz i might missed it.

February
08-03-2012, 08:02 PM
Noooooooooooo :thud:


LOL...who you will recommend? :waitasec:

February
08-03-2012, 08:03 PM
The killer was imperfect, but maybe policy and the manifestation of it providing the right intervention was also flawed. Who knows. We're all here to discuss it. I've been learning from everyone.

ITA....
Learning is good!

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:05 PM
Are you talking to yourself? :blowkiss:
Shoot, you caught me!

~n/t~
08-03-2012, 08:07 PM
LOL...who you will recommend? :waitasec:

I guess it all depends. Would this be a civil or criminal case? :what:

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-03-2012, 08:22 PM
Trust me doc documented EVERY SINGLE word in quotes she said to everyone on BETA team (probably included when she sighed!!) Every syllable!!

Wondering: if it's SOP to transcribe a phone conversation as you participate in it (or type a script for yourself in advance and make additional notations during the call), would that stand up if it needed to?

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Wondering: if it's SOP to transcribe a phone conversation as you participate in it (or type a script for yourself in advance and make additional notations during the call), would that stand up if it needed to?
You dealing with issues like you document document documentdocument documentdocumentdocumentdocumentdocument!

But will we ever see any of it nope!

February
08-03-2012, 08:38 PM
I guess it all depends. Would this be a civil or criminal case? :what:

dont know... could be civil or .... maybe both? :maddening:

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Before making those phone calls to members of the team, she would be smart to send each an email or inner office memo in advance. CYA I still think another person or another step in their procedures might have provided more accountability. All these phone calls, but not meeting, afterall, and time was ticking.

MOO :sothere:

SmoothOperator
08-03-2012, 08:49 PM
Re:documenting done with all subjects pertaining to the shooter..

IANAL but did stupidly marry young and quickly attempted to rectify that mistake with thinking I'd quickly get a divorce.. I could not have been more mistaken and naive at that time.. For a marriage that lasted less than year into it I filed for divorce it took me 4 excruciatingly long and miserable years combined with mountains of money to finally achieve that "quickie divorce"..:sigh:

Anyhoo my point in sharing that is that I very quickly learned what was of the utmost and greatest importance in a court(and this goes for any court, family, civil and criminal).. DOCUMENTATION!!!!...DOCUMENTATION!!!.. .DOCUMENTATION!!!..

DOCUMENTATION IS EVERYTHING IN COURT!!!DOCUMENTATION IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE AND IMO TO A JUDGE DOCUMENTATION IS JUST AS GOOD AS THE JUDGE BEING THERE AND HAVING WITNESSED WHATEVER EVENT(phone calls, convos, discussions and their subjects, things you personally witnessed or did, etc, etc..the list goes on&on).. I learned that your having immediately in real time as the event occurred you thoroughly documenting everything about said event with as many details as humanly possible, along with exact dates/times each said event occurred.. This meticulous and time consuming type of documentation LITERALLY MEANS EVERYTHING WHEN PRESENTED IN COURT AND IS GIVEN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WEIGHT AND VALIDITY..

So, with all that said I can imagine that especially in this case with these particular type issues we are presently discussing that pertain to the faculty, medical personnel, and literally the entire college as a whole, along with all issues even remotely pertaining to the shooter... I would imagine any/all documentation that exists would be extremely powerful evidence that would IMO without a doubt be entered into evidence in the shooters criminal trial possibly, and certainly would be evidence entered into any civil lawsuits stemming from the shooter..

CARIIS, why do you believe that it will never be seen by us??.. Or maybe you just mean it'll never been seen by any of us PRIOR TO IT BEING USED AS EVIDENCE IN ANY CRIMINAL OR CIVIL TRIALS??..

Just wondering what exactly you meant when saying we'd not see it??

TIA:)

February
08-03-2012, 08:54 PM
we might not see it in court if it will open this Can of Worms

SmoothOperator
08-03-2012, 08:55 PM
:doh: talk about dumb and missing the obvious.. Disregard my above dumbass question:doh:.. CONFIDENTIALITY!!!...sometimes I wonder what my brain is doing cuz it sure isn't paying attention..lol

jjenny
08-03-2012, 08:59 PM
another problem is he is on a scholarship grant. As my understanding, those people on scholarship has to maintain a high grade and If he failed this - it is over.

In graduate school, everybody has to maintain a B average.

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 08:59 PM
Oh no, real worms!

:worms:

jjenny
08-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Yes they all dont make millions right away but this can have the potential to make millions if they discover a drug to cure cancers...

and i said they "could" make millions.... you know the word - COULD.

Bill Gates didn't have to finish college to make his millions of millions. So a college drop out COULD make millions too.

February
08-03-2012, 09:05 PM
Bill Gates didn't have to finish college to make his millions of millions. So a college drop out COULD make millions too.

well i didnt say college drop outs too cant make millions..
Anybody can make millions, i can make millions just by winning the lottery

but i think you are just over-exagerrating things LOL..
Do you have other things to do? :moo::moo: Are u bored or what?...

DeadCat
08-03-2012, 09:09 PM
oh no, jbean's-a-comin'!

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 09:37 PM
Disclaimer: Not saying anybody did or didn't do something.

Wouldn't it be wise to be very aware of how a person is handled when their reality and future as they knew are gone. Sure, "tough" people usually adapt, but how they are helped to transition is usually of upmost importance. Human Resources departments in big lay offs often hire security guards, and offer arrangements for the people to get further transitional help of counseling and job searching.

There's also a lot of unspoken attitudes that go on sometimes. Let's face it, there's ways to get rid of people without getting sued, and still make them leave or drop out.

JH, if he thought he was failing and becoming an outcast, like that above article about the student, it absolutely requires the doctor and school to not aggravate the situation. I'm not saying they did, so please understand that's not what I'm saying. It's JMOO - Handle with kid gloves and make efforts to help them make a graceful transition, and certainly good policy and documentation is smart.

February
08-03-2012, 09:44 PM
The University of Colorado has launched an internal review of how its staff handled Aurora theater shooting suspect James Holmes prior to the mass killing on July 20.
The university review is being conducted by Robert Miller, former U.S. Attorney for Colorado.
University officals said there is no timeline for the competition of the review, but it could take some time.
CALL7 Investigators found Miller has close ties to the university. He’s graduated from CU Law School in1965 and according to his website, he won a $58 million verdict for the university in 2003 in a patented lawsuit against a major pharmaceutical company.


Meanwhile, sources familiar with the criminal investigation tell CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that Fenton and other key witnesses at CU have not been interviewed by police. There is a question of privileged information due to Fenton's doctor-patient relationship with Holmes. Anyone involved with Holmes' care can also claim the privilege. Sources say this issue is likely to be decided by the judge in case.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html


more on that link above..

songline
08-03-2012, 09:53 PM
:floorlaugh: This is a nice change.

In the middle of last night I could not sleep this case was really on my mind... (not a great sleeper anyway) So I sorted it out for my head....I posted if I were his mom I would sue the Therapist and the school big time....and I said why. When I woke up this morning a bunch jumped on me. And I said YES I changed my mind from We don’t know anything to what I thought and felt due to the little we did know.

I think that post was removed… but that is OK I will always speak my mind. :blushing:

Thank God I had a real busy day, but I returned to see that many here do see thing as I did last ninght. I am not alone. Thank you. :D

Carry on... I have a guest coming.....

songline
08-03-2012, 09:55 PM
The University of Colorado has launched an internal review of how its staff handled Aurora theater shooting suspect James Holmes prior to the mass killing on July 20.
The university review is being conducted by Robert Miller, former U.S. Attorney for Colorado.
University officals said there is no timeline for the competition of the review, but it could take some time.
CALL7 Investigators found Miller has close ties to the university. He’s graduated from CU Law School in1965 and according to his website, he won a $58 million verdict for the university in 2003 in a patented lawsuit against a major pharmaceutical company.


Meanwhile, sources familiar with the criminal investigation tell CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that Fenton and other key witnesses at CU have not been interviewed by police. There is a question of privileged information due to Fenton's doctor-patient relationship with Holmes. Anyone involved with Holmes' care can also claim the privilege. Sources say this issue is likely to be decided by the judge in case.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html


more on that link above..

Miller has to be disqualified. NOW! :maddening::maddening::maddening:

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 10:01 PM
The University of Colorado has launched an internal review of how its staff handled Aurora theater shooting suspect James Holmes prior to the mass killing on July 20.
The university review is being conducted by Robert Miller, former U.S. Attorney for Colorado.
University officals said there is no timeline for the competition of the review, but it could take some time.
CALL7 Investigators found Miller has close ties to the university. He’s graduated from CU Law School in1965 and according to his website, he won a $58 million verdict for the university in 2003 in a patented lawsuit against a major pharmaceutical company.


Meanwhile, sources familiar with the criminal investigation tell CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that Fenton and other key witnesses at CU have not been interviewed by police. There is a question of privileged information due to Fenton's doctor-patient relationship with Holmes. Anyone involved with Holmes' care can also claim the privilege. Sources say this issue is likely to be decided by the judge in case.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html


more on that link above..

BBM
It also says -

"But sources familiar with the investigation told CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that officials at the University of Colorado never contacted Aurora police with Fenton’s concerns before the July 20 killings."

"Sources said when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team “had no control over him" and ended its review, when Holmes dropped out of school on July 10."

"Chancellor Donald Elliman said the school is committed to evaluating every step in the process to ensure it worked."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html

February
08-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Miller has to be disqualified. NOW! :maddening::maddening::maddening:

Miller's involvement was requested by University of Colorado Denver Chancellor Donald M. Elliman, Jr. and Executive Vice Chancellor for the Anschutz Medical Campus Lilly Marks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21231096/cu-announces-review-events-before-aurora-theater-shootings

maybe this is just their preparation of a possible lawsuit against the university. IMO

jjenny
08-03-2012, 10:10 PM
Miller has to be disqualified. NOW! :maddening::maddening::maddening:

Why, exactly?

February
08-03-2012, 10:16 PM
"If the argument is because he was no longer a student, he was no longer their problem, they are absolutely incorrect," said Larry Barton, a threat consultant and professor at American College in Bryn Mawr, Pa. "Any court and any victim's family would have an argument that the school acted with indifference. I hope they have a very compelling answer to why they did what they did."

http://www.twincities.com/ci_21232290/did-university-drop-ball-movie-theater-attack

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 10:32 PM
Oh my goodness what a mess this is going to be. Between duty to warn, confidentiality, privileged communication, informed consent, administration withdrawing to their corner, Dr. Gets in her corner, then let’s throw in all of the BETA folks in their different corners, let’s sprinkle in some faculty, throw in a pinch of peers in his graduate program, add a dash of Hippa, marinated with some Ferpa, mince in an insanity plea, topped with some incompetent to stand trial evaluations, mix well with 142 criminal charges, blend in with previous treatment providers, add in a dash of victim statements as it relates to death penalty, shred in some change in venue, follow by jury selection, and top off with a gag order!

I don’t think any of us, here, will live long enough to see the end!

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 10:39 PM
we might not see it in court if it will open this Can of Worms
I was scared to click!!

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 10:50 PM
BBM
It also says -

"But sources familiar with the investigation told CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that officials at the University of Colorado never contacted Aurora police with Fenton’s concerns before the July 20 killings."

"Sources said when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team “had no control over him" and ended its review, when Holmes dropped out of school on July 10."

"Chancellor Donald Elliman said the school is committed to evaluating every step in the process to ensure it worked."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html
they need to have a hearing to see if it worked? Where exactly are they befuddled? What are they trying to figure out here !!!!

All they need to do is read what BETA stands for - and poof determination in - missed the boat folks!

...thats actually humorous.... Come on University!

orora
08-03-2012, 11:21 PM
from curiousme-


JH, if he thought he was failing and becoming an outcast, like that above article about the student, it absolutely requires the doctor and school to not aggravate the situation. I'm not saying they did, so please understand that's not what I'm saying. It's JMOO - Handle with kid gloves and make efforts to help them make a graceful transition, and certainly good policy and documentation is smart.

Sorta like the feeling the male black widow spider gets after copulation upon realizing his predicament. Back out very slowly and gently being very careful not to disturb or poke any tender spots. Hey look, there's another target over there!

CARIIS
08-03-2012, 11:41 PM
from curiousme-



Sorta like the feeling the male black widow spider gets after copulation upon realizing his predicament. Back out very slowly and gently being very careful not to disturb or poke any tender spots. Hey look, there's another target over there!
Absolutly they should just give it up ($ - legal wont happen) and just come clean so complicated!

Curious Me
08-03-2012, 11:45 PM
Does anybody know or understand the confidentiality issues involved if DrF gets to know of any prior MI history of JH? Is she allowed/required to know by the patient signing consent before treatment, or is that protected under confidentiality?

orora
08-03-2012, 11:54 PM
The legal side is an overly comlex monstrosity to fathom when it comes to things like this. Fenton has not yet been interviewed by law enforcement? Meaning all evidence has not yet been turned over? no subpoena's ? The university gets to conduct its own internal investigation first? Is this not getting a little ripe for most people?

Did mom even tell? Maybe sonny boy wouldn't have been accepted if the uni knew beforehand. Lots of questions but seems we are being left in the dark.

Liz
08-04-2012, 04:00 AM
This press release was posted on 8/3/12, at approximately 4pm, on the UC website:

Campus Leaders voluntarily call for review


AURORA, Colo. – The University of Colorado today announced that Robert N. Miller, former U.S. Attorney for the District of Colorado, has been retained to conduct an ​independent review in an effort to better understand the procedures and actions taken by the university and its employees in relation to the suspect in the Aurora Theater shootings, a former student on the Anschutz Medical Campus. Miller and his team began their review last week. They have been asked to assess various university systems, procedures and actions related to the suspect.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/newsreleases/Pages/Former-US-Attorney-Bob-Miller-to-conduct-independent-review.aspx

More at link. I wasn't sure if we were permitted to post news releases in their entirety or not. Anybody?

Liz
08-04-2012, 06:00 AM
The Team consists of representatives from the Counseling Center, Faculty Development Center, Office of Student Life, Legal Counsel, Human Resources, Student Conduct Office, Risk Management, Student Life, Student Services, Ombuds, Disability Services, Campus Police and Student Housing.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Pages/default.aspx


are these people even allowed to see or hear JH's Medical/Patient Records of Fenton?

edited to add : i think but i am not sure that the BETA Team site got edited :(

Good point, February about the patient confidentiality with regards to the other members of the BETA team. Very good point!

Regarding your ETA comment, this is the problem with only being able to post a partial c/p from sites (I'm not sure whether UC pages are even copyrighted info) ... then when they later get altered or deleted, we have no way to know for sure.

21merc7
08-04-2012, 06:56 AM
Does anybody know or understand the confidentiality issues involved if DrF gets to know of any prior MI history of JH? Is she allowed/required to know by the patient signing consent before treatment, or is that protected under confidentiality?

JH would have to sign a HIPPA approved form for Fenton to get any records from previous docs, if he had any.

He only started at that school in June 2011. Don't know when he started seeing Fenton, don't know if it was in regards to any issues or just a school requirement.

We have seen quotes that he started not doing well in school in Spring, that would be about right if he really wasn't cut out for the program.

My guess is the program may have been too tough on him. Maybe he was not ready (not mature enough) for the requirements obtaining a PhD take. Maybe he was only ready for normal 20 something life of experimentation, yet he was angry he was no longer "smart enough" to just breeze through. I don't know. Sidenote, we did read that the presentation he gave was all pre-written for him, that he did not do that research alone.If so, how much of his prior good grades were just borrowed good works? Maybe he really couldn't cut it? That could make someone very angry if they were not in their own mind ready to accept it.

moo

rollinginit
08-04-2012, 07:11 AM
Would JH have been considered somewhat a "freshmen" at school considering this being his first year at this school?

I only ask b/c last year when my daughter was at first year, she had an advisor that she had to talk to every couple of weeks. It was just to make sure she was OKAY and not having any problems with school. I know at her school it is required for 1st years to take a class on college life and adjusting. They talk about depression, suicide, class stress, teacher stress, etc... Even if other kids transfer in from other states or at different levels of studies, they are all required to take that class. I wonder if JH's college required a class like that?

I do wonder why the college felt the need to completely scrub their web site?

I don't know how I feel about the the dr. yet. I wonder what she knew and what she reported? I also wonder if their were to many chiefs at the college? You know.....you have to work up the chain of command.....tell so and so....and they tell so and so. (I've had a few jobs like that. You tell lower so and so and the problem never gets fixed)

If JH drops out, does that release the school from any responsibility? I would say it depends on what exactly the school knew about JH.

February
08-04-2012, 07:25 AM
Good point, February about the patient confidentiality with regards to the other members of the BETA team. Very good point!

Regarding your ETA comment, this is the problem with only being able to post a partial c/p from sites (I'm not sure whether UC pages are even copyrighted info) ... then when they later get altered or deleted, we have no way to know for sure.

Maybe some are not even entitled to hear it so we got this new statement from Carrigan :


Michael Carrigan, chairman of the CU board of regents, told KMGH he did not know if Holmes had ever been discussed by the BETA team.

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/james-holmes-court-case-university-of-colorado-to-review-how-it-handled-shooting-suspect#ixzz22Zl7AP4t

Liz
08-04-2012, 07:33 AM
Maybe some are not even entitled to hear it so we got this new statement from Carrigan :


Michael Carrigan, chairman of the CU board of regents, told KMGH he did not know if Holmes had ever been discussed by the BETA team.


Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/james-holmes-court-case-university-of-colorado-to-review-how-it-handled-shooting-suspect#ixzz22Zl7AP4t

Just from reading your quote, I'm already shaking my head. I don't trust that guy, as far as I can see him. And I'm totally unable to see him. lol (as referenced in my post in the Conflicting Reports thread)

February
08-04-2012, 07:36 AM
Just from reading your quote, I'm already shaking my head. I don't trust that guy, as far as I can see him. And I'm totally unable to see him. lol

LOL... i see him from your post on that conflicting reports
That's funny ! :notgood:

Liz
08-04-2012, 07:40 AM
Would JH have been considered somewhat a "freshmen" at school considering this being his first year at this school?

I only ask b/c last year when my daughter was at first year, she had an advisor that she had to talk to every couple of weeks. It was just to make sure she was OKAY and not having any problems with school. I know at her school it is required for 1st years to take a class on college life and adjusting. They talk about depression, suicide, class stress, teacher stress, etc... Even if other kids transfer in from other states or at different levels of studies, they are all required to take that class. I wonder if JH's college required a class like that?

I do wonder why the college felt the need to completely scrub their web site?

I don't know how I feel about the the dr. yet. I wonder what she knew and what she reported? I also wonder if their were to many chiefs at the college? You know.....you have to work up the chain of command.....tell so and so....and they tell so and so. (I've had a few jobs like that. You tell lower so and so and the problem never gets fixed)

If JH drops out, does that release the school from any responsibility? I would say it depends on what exactly the school knew about JH.

Moved my reply over to:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8227705&posted=1#post8227705

~n/t~
08-04-2012, 07:58 AM
BBM
It also says -

"But sources familiar with the investigation told CALL7 Investigator John Ferrugia that officials at the University of Colorado never contacted Aurora police with Fenton’s concerns before the July 20 killings."

"Sources said when Holmes withdrew, the BETA team “had no control over him" and ended its review, when Holmes dropped out of school on July 10."

"Chancellor Donald Elliman said the school is committed to evaluating every step in the process to ensure it worked."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31330541/detail.html

I thought he dropped out in June right after his oral exam. :waitasec: Maybe we need a reliable timeline, if that's even possible.

Liz
08-04-2012, 08:06 AM
I thought he dropped out in June right after his oral exam. :waitasec: Maybe we need a reliable timeline, if that's even possible.

I read that article yesterday and notified that news station last night about their "July" error. Time flies so fast, it's hard to keep up. ;) (Oops upon clicking, that is not who I contacted last night. But it's the same error!)

As for the timeline, we don't have a whole lot of concrete dates to go by, but I've began to keep one.

~n/t~
08-04-2012, 08:06 AM
Robert (Bob) N. Miller


Robert Miller has over 45 years of experience in complex commercial litigation and white collar crime. As the former United States Attorney for the District of Colorado, and as a former Colorado District Attorney, he has extensive experience in representing companies, board members, officers and individuals in connection with investigations by federal and state prosecutors. He also routinely conducts internal investigations and advises companies on compliance programs. He has represented many public and private companies, officers, board members and individuals in a wide variety of complex commercial litigation. He is also a panel member for the American Arbitration Association.



http://www.perkinscoie.com/rmiller/

February
08-04-2012, 08:23 AM
Withdrawal from the University
To withdraw from the University of Colorado Denver, students must drop all courses for the semester. Prior to census (see current academic calendar for census date), students must use the Web registration system (SMART) to drop courses. Courses dropped during this period are not recorded on the student’s permanent record.

After the census date (see current academic calendar for census date), through the 10th week (fifth week for summer) students must submit a withdrawal form with the approval of the dean and the Office of Financial Aid. Courses dropped during this period will be recorded on the student’s permanent record with a grade of W.

Students seeking to withdraw after the 10th week (fifth week for summer) must petition the associate dean of their school or college. A student who stops attending classes without officially withdrawing from the university will receive grades of F for all course work during that term.

Deadlines for dropping module and intensive courses appear in the Web Schedule Planner.
http://catalog.ucdenver.edu/content.php?catoid=1&navoid=25#withdrawal

Just FYI only above..

February
08-04-2012, 08:40 AM
By the way, who process school withdrawal on a SUNDAY?...


:what::waitasec::what:

Liz
08-04-2012, 09:05 AM
:waitasec:
By the way, who process school withdrawal on a SUNDAY?...


:what::waitasec::what:

Also of note ... how most of the articles that I've read stated it as, "JH was going through the process of withdrawing". That seems to me as if the university officials didn't wish to provide a clear date. How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.

The only clear date I've seen, regarding his withdrawing from school (and I'd probably have to search for it), was that JH was no longer allowed access to the secured buildings as of June 12th.

Gotta run. My hinky alarm is going off, again. JMO

February
08-04-2012, 09:14 AM
:waitasec:

Also of note ... how most of the articles that I've read stated it as, "JH was going through the process of withdrawing". That seems to me as if the university officials didn't wish to provide a clear date. How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.

The only clear date I've seen, regarding his withdrawing from school (and I'd probably have to search for it), was that JH was no longer allowed access to the secured buildings as of June 12th.

Gotta run. My hinky alarm is going off, again. JMO

But on June 10 -- three days after Holmes bought an assault weapon and added it to his already growing arsenal -- he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation.

http://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-called-threat-team-aurora-shooting-suspect-james-215740780--abc-news-topstories.html

My calendar says June 10 is Sunday

songline
08-04-2012, 09:38 AM
Miller's involvement was requested by University of Colorado Denver Chancellor Donald M. Elliman, Jr. and Executive Vice Chancellor for the Anschutz Medical Campus Lilly Marks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21231096/cu-announces-review-events-before-aurora-theater-shootings

maybe this is just their preparation of a possible lawsuit against the university. IMO

So far I see conflict of interest in Miller's involvment.
If I am wrong - we shall see.

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:03 AM
But on June 10 -- three days after Holmes bought an assault weapon and added it to his already growing arsenal -- he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation.

http://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-called-threat-team-aurora-shooting-suspect-james-215740780--abc-news-topstories.html

My calendar says June 10 is Sunday

Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

jjenny
08-04-2012, 10:55 AM
Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

What if they did? I have no clue what is behind the logic that everyone should have tried to keep this guy around? Does that mean they knew he was going to be accused of killing 12 people? People do drop out of graduate school. A vast majority of them don't kill anyone.

rollinginit
08-04-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't know much about grad school, but I am having a hard time with people saying you just don't drop out of grad school! I would think grad school would be super hard. The link that I posted in media about JH's grad's school and what exactly they do in that program....it was pretty detailed. It seemed extremely hard and very time consuming. Actually sounded like you don't have much of a life.

Sure maybe most don't drop out, but I bet there are people that drop out.

Most (IMO) young people now have this mind set where they think they are all the best at everything. They are all winners. None of these kids are learning how to deal with rejection or losing. All the way back from his younger years, everybody describes him as being super smart. He was probably told that his whole life. You know what? Sometimes the real world will knock you down a few pegs. Maybe he learned there were other kids just as smart if not smarter than him. Maybe he couldn't cope with the coarse load? Or just maybe he lost interest in school???

It's my thought and opinion.....I believe he just thought everybody else was stupid.

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 02:50 PM
What if they did? I have no clue what is behind the logic that everyone should have tried to keep this guy around? Does that mean they knew he was going to be accused of killing 12 people? People do drop out of graduate school. A vast majority of them don't kill anyone.

I think my frustration is with the school standing on both sides of the fence. If he wasn't "doctoral material" or was too "off"-- socially or mentally--why didn't the school just say that? Instead the first reports we received were about how he didn't have to drop out. They could have worked with him to help him improve his exam performance which just doesn't feel like the whole story to me.

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 03:05 PM
I think we're hearing 2 conflicting sets of evidence which is frustrating. On one hand there's the argument that "something was seriously amiss" and on the other "all was sudden and couldn't have been prevented or predicted." It will be interesting to see the findings from the UC internal investigation.

Seriously amiss evidence:
drastic change of appearance
shy, studious guy starts meeting with prostitutes
notebook (depending day received)
BETA team referral by doc
dropping out of grad school after only one year after working so hard to get there
etc.

Sudden and unpredictable:
Shy, quiet, kept to himself
dropping out could have been a normal reaction to failing the exam
etc.

February
08-04-2012, 03:22 PM
Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

IMO, i would like to know how he performed on the last 2 semesters prior to this Spring Semester. Obviously he passed these 2 semester because he reached the 3rd Semester but how was his performance. One thing we could look forward on the trial is to hear from his fellow classmates and other professors and his academic counselor if he has one.

fyi - academic calendar :
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/GradSchool2011-12.pdf

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 03:33 PM
IMO, i would like to know how he performed on the last 2 semesters prior to this Spring Semester. Obviously he passed these 2 semester because he reached the 3rd Semester but how was his performance. One thing we could look forward on the trial is to hear from his fellow classmates and other professors and his academic counselor if he has one.

fyi - academic calendar :
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/GradSchool2011-12.pdf

February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

Liz
08-04-2012, 03:39 PM
FWIW -

""He had, as is now common knowledge, excellent academic credentials," said Barry Shur (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/CLAS/Departments/biology/AboutUs/ContactUs/DepartmentDirectory/Pages/BarryShur.aspx), dean of the university's graduate program."

Source (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=8748335)

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-04-2012, 03:40 PM
I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

jjenny
08-04-2012, 03:43 PM
I think my frustration is with the school standing on both sides of the fence. If he wasn't "doctoral material" or was too "off"-- socially or mentally--why didn't the school just say that? Instead the first reports we received were about how he didn't have to drop out. They could have worked with him to help him improve his exam performance which just doesn't feel like the whole story to me.

And nothing have come out to suggest they couldn't have worked with him to improve his exam performance.
Assuming, of course, he was a regular student.

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 03:43 PM
This thread is about the university's responsibilities to the student. They are required to handle students without aggravating someone they sense may be a threat. People do drop out of grad programs, and don't end up killing people, but maybe there's circumstances in this case we don't know about yet. It's still up for discussion.

IMO, it wasn't quite a sudden snap of the mind afterall. I'm thinking of it like a rash that was being ignored until the arm fell off - maybe a bad example - need more coffee.

February
08-04-2012, 03:43 PM
I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

and he represented the University on a lawsuit that awarded them $58m against a pharmaceutical company

Michael Carrigan hired him to do the review... just look at all Michael Carrigan statements here and there... lots are contradictory..check the contradicting thread, liz got one in there...Michael Carrigan is a member of the University Board of Regents...

jjenny
08-04-2012, 03:44 PM
February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

I am pretty sure that students whose GPA falls below B in graduate school are put on academic probation. They are given however long a period to improve the GPA. If they don't, they are let go. These rules would apply to every graduate student. We haven't heard anything about JH being on academic probation.

jjenny
08-04-2012, 03:46 PM
This thread is about the university's responsibilities to the student. They are required to handle students without aggravating someone they sense may be a threat. People do drop out of grad programs, and don't end up killing people, but maybe there's circumstances in this case we don't know about yet. It's still up for discussion.

IMO, it wasn't quite a sudden snap of the mind afterall. I'm thinking of it like a rash that was being ignored until the arm fell off - maybe a bad example - need more coffee.

How do Universities supposed to do this, exactly? When student is an adult, he can do whatever it is he wants, including dropping out.

February
08-04-2012, 03:48 PM
February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

I assume he entered summer semester because of the dates of entry to the school..

If his grades was all A and B on 2 semesters and spring is all C and F, they why.... what happened to him..

February
08-04-2012, 04:02 PM
I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

I actually think that Miller lawyer is there to prepare now from all the lawsuit the school could be facing in the future . I dont believe he is just there for review :) IMO..

February
08-04-2012, 04:07 PM
Do you guys think some famous lawyer will soon come forward to represent
( pro-bono ) JH and the families of many victims?

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 04:08 PM
How people are treated when failing school or being terminated from a job is still important. Policy is one thing, but I think any university or corporation should be aware of the growing number of people not taking being let go in stride. Exactly what did they do to prevent. They haven't told us enough yet.

February
08-04-2012, 04:12 PM
FWIW -

""He had, as is now common knowledge, excellent academic credentials," said Barry Shur (http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/CLAS/Departments/biology/AboutUs/ContactUs/DepartmentDirectory/Pages/BarryShur.aspx), dean of the university's graduate program."

Source (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=8748335)

per the withdrawal process, an approval of the dean is necessary, if Barry shur thinks he is excellent on academic credentials then i think he'll be stepping up to understand more why this guy is dropping

After the census date (see current academic calendar for census date), through the 10th week (fifth week for summer) students must submit a withdrawal form with the approval of the dean and the Office of Financial Aid.
http://catalog.ucdenver.edu/content.php?catoid=1&navoid=25#withdrawal

jjenny
08-04-2012, 04:16 PM
How people are treated when failing school or being terminated from a job is still important. Policy is one thing, but I think any university or corporation should be aware of the growing number of people not taking being let go in stride. Exactly what did they do to prevent. They haven't told us enough yet.

He wasn't terminated. He voluntarily withdraw.
Nothing came out to contradict that. Was anyone supposed to run behind him begging him to not go?

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 04:27 PM
He wasn't terminated. He voluntarily withdraw.
Nothing came out to contradict that. Was anyone supposed to run behind him begging him to not go?

You want to make every possible effort to stop someone you know is acting uncommonly strange from escalating to violence especially when as a university you're aware of all the school shootings. This isn't the old days. To be clear, I don't buy that he just voluntarily withdrew just because the school or media says so.

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:38 PM
I can translate BS, I learned it on a ROsetta Stone DVD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Campus leaders Cover THeir A** FIndings due in 2033!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:44 PM
:waitasec:

Also of note ... how most of the articles that I've read stated it as, "JH was going through the process of withdrawing". That seems to me as if the university officials didn't wish to provide a clear date. How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.

The only clear date I've seen, regarding his withdrawing from school (and I'd probably have to search for it), was that JH was no longer allowed access to the secured buildings as of June 12th.

Gotta run. My hinky alarm is going off, again. JMO
How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.


From the beginning it seemed to me that he was told he would not be allowed back or to put it more bluntly, cause of his increasingly problematic behavior , and poor kid was so lost they told him to just withdraw (saved them all kinds of problems that they now are experiecing) cause the kid went out to a batman movie with some serious guns......

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:46 PM
he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation

The university claims he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:47 PM
My calendar says June 10 is Sunday

HA! Brillant catch!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:49 PM
maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave

or not allowing him back they pulled his key cards pretty urgently according to all accounts

humm

sounds like getting fired to me!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:51 PM
People do not just drop out of grad school - very rare - people drop out of college, grad school diff unniverse ...............

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 04:58 PM
I don't know much about grad school, but I am having a hard time with people saying you just don't drop out of grad school! I would think grad school would be super hard. The link that I posted in media about JH's grad's school and what exactly they do in that program....it was pretty detailed. It seemed extremely hard and very time consuming. Actually sounded like you don't have much of a life.

Sure maybe most don't drop out, but I bet there are people that drop out.

Most (IMO) young people now have this mind set where they think they are all the best at everything. They are all winners. None of these kids are learning how to deal with rejection or losing. All the way back from his younger years, everybody describes him as being super smart. He was probably told that his whole life. You know what? Sometimes the real world will knock you down a few pegs. Maybe he learned there were other kids just as smart if not smarter than him. Maybe he couldn't cope with the coarse load? Or just maybe he lost interest in school???

It's my thought and opinion.....I believe he just thought everybody else was stupid.
Grad school is so diff from college you spend a year 18 months just getting yourself presentable to see if they will even let you apply for a slot. It is the opposite, the ones that get in have already demenstrated such capacities, motivation etc.

The screening is the opposite of college - you must prove to them you can do what is needed before they give away one of the slots.

Kinda like a senate hearing - you go before them in person, for hours, before they let you know if they are willing to take the time to review all your paper stuff -- it is one of those yeh we will possibly consider you --- well get back to you (in another half a year!)

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 04:58 PM
Sounds like an excuse when all you can fall back on is "our hands were tied so don't blame us." That's what concerns me. He was cunning, clever, and dangerous. The situation perhaps required more from the university than what they actually did. Was locking the doors all they could do?

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:01 PM
Instead the first reports we received were about how he didn't have to drop out. They could have worked with him to help him improve his exam performance which just doesn't feel like the whole story to me.


Think Watergate!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I think we're hearing 2 conflicting sets of evidence which is frustrating. On one hand there's the argument that "something was seriously amiss" and on the other "all was sudden and couldn't have been prevented or predicted." It will be interesting to see the findings from the UC internal investigation.

Seriously amiss evidence:
drastic change of appearance
shy, studious guy starts meeting with prostitutes
notebook (depending day received)
BETA team referral by doc
dropping out of grad school after only one year after working so hard to get there
etc.

Sudden and unpredictable:
Shy, quiet, kept to himself
dropping out could have been a normal reaction to failing the exam
etc.
a normal reaction to failing the exam
etc.


or deteriorating mental condition could have resulted in poor performance, bizairre behaviors, = get him out of here , we dont want to deal with a delusionial person who is scary and bizaire...........

21merc7
08-04-2012, 05:03 PM
Cariis see what you are saying.

If he emailed "I quit" on the 10th, they took keycards on 12th, not much talking/helping was going into keeping him in the program, as the school would like us to believe they would do.

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:06 PM
receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!


You do not get c's in grad school!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm thinking of it like a rash that was being ignored until the arm fell off - maybe a bad example - need more coffee.


fab metaphor! you know I feel this way and have from day 1. this is not snap stuff this is a human being losing it and admin faculity and peers in grad school just not wanting to deal with MI (and if anything honest every comes from admin) IMO we are gonna be hearing from a lot a lot a lot of people who were very freightened of him ............

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:25 PM
I assume he entered summer semester because of the dates of entry to the school..

If his grades was all A and B on 2 semesters and spring is all C and F, they why.... what happened to him..
what happened to him.. ...

he was becoming increainly delusionial, under more and more stress. James Holmes was not preparing for July 20, the Joker was. Conversly, the Joker does not care about grad school -- he is busy preparing for what the joker MUST do on July 20 when the movie sneaks..........................

February
08-04-2012, 05:28 PM
what happened to him.. ...

he was becoming increainly delusionial, under more and more stress. James Holmes was not preparing for July 20, the Joker was. Conversly, the Joker does not care about grad school -- he is busy preparing for what the joker MUST do on July 20 when the movie sneaks..........................

do you think the Joker started preparing for the July 20 because he was expecting he will fail anyways since the beginning of Spring Semester? :what:

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:28 PM
You want to make every possible effort to stop someone you know is acting uncommonly strange from escalating to violence especially when as a university you're aware of all the school shootings. This isn't the old days. To be clear, I don't buy that he just voluntarily withdrew just because the school or media says so.
I don't buy that he just voluntarily withdrew just because the school or media says so.

Me either never did not for a millisecond IMO, they told him to L E A V E

February
08-04-2012, 05:29 PM
I don't buy that he just voluntarily withdrew just because the school or media says so.

Me either never did not for a millisecond IMO, they told him to L E A V E

i was thinking the same thing :moo:

21merc7
08-04-2012, 05:32 PM
do you think the Joker started preparing for the July 20 because he was expecting he will fail anyways since the beginning of Spring Semester? :what:

I've thought this all along.

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:36 PM
Sounds like an excuse when all you can fall back on is "our hands were tied so don't blame us." That's what concerns me. He was cunning, clever, and dangerous. The situation perhaps required more from the university than what they actually did. Was locking the doors all they could do?
Curious you know I feel this way! He was spirrling then Beta stuff is leaked admin problem is they did not predict that the kid , the MI human they were throwing out, in the streets, would end up in the top 10 mass murderers in US history.....

Don't ya hate when that happens.............................

Admin here no different IMO than wall street folks , greedy , uncaring, watching the bucks and most importantly L I A B I L I T Y in any shape or color

well guess what guys - (admin) ha, ya all got yourself in one heck of a jam right about now dont ya

its hard to get blood off your hands, by all accounts........................

February
08-04-2012, 05:39 PM
I've thought this all along.

Me too.
based on their academic calendar : ( and i said this couple times lol ), May 23 is the deadline for their grades. But June 7 is the day he took this oral exam for the Spring Semester. June 4 is the start of the Summer Semester. Last day to drop is June 8. Maybe a reporter can ask if they follow this calendar at all. IMO...


Spring Semester 2011-2012
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/GradSchool2011-12.pdf

Summer 2012-2013
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/Academic_Calendar_Graduate_School_2012-13.pdf

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 05:42 PM
Then, that terrorizing movie theater scene, the one that will never be erased from victims minds. I thought at first he was faking MI to get revenge and fame by the horror he reigned on others. Now, I don't think he was faking it, not if even DrF noticed. Look at who he was before. I have to say, he must've "grown another identity or personna" for this to have happened.

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:44 PM
Cariis see what you are saying.

If he emailed "I quit" on the 10th, they took keycards on 12th, not much talking/helping was going into keeping him in the program, as the school would like us to believe they would do.

and ha, lets make this even more fun, for some reason, this organization could not, IMO, gets its act together, somewhere, kinda, maybe, i think, in possibly the first 10 days of june (!) to see if the head of there BETA team might, maybe able, to kinda, sometime, soon, chat, with someone on the team who might be danger.......................

BUT this very same gang could get those damn key cards turned OFF in flash....

Oh come on admin, if your gonna lie, at least do it at the graduate level..................

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 05:56 PM
do you think the Joker started preparing for the July 20 because he was expecting he will fail anyways since the beginning of Spring Semester? :what:
SPECUALTION ALERT:

No, I think he stopped taking his meds . lets go , march, takes a while for em to leave system. APril he starts having more intrusive delsusions (he is the Joker) . The delsuion gets worse , in class he is not listening, he is the joker, does not learn what he needs to for upcoming orals.
But (noone has gone here with me but that 1986 comic book I think is HUGE) I have posted it more than once I digress
Peers/faculity are becoming more afraid , he is getting more and more bizaire. But he is missing his appts with doc. He is getting worse. ANd the Joker has big plans for the 20th. Joker tries to get gun practice at that gun place.
Then the orals happen. More stress. Joker more and more real. He was told get out. More stress. More Joker. Less James Holmes. Does that email (I withdraw yeh right whatever admin).
Delusionial does not = dumb it = delusionial! James Holmes knows he is not allowed in the apt any linger. More stress. Makes the Joker stronger in his every day life. THe Joker takes over and begans procuring what the joker needs for July 20.

IMO, there is a lot of thinking of procuring the stuff as planning wherein IMO it is a delsuion being fufilled. THe Joker plans, he does not fail. ANd he has a costume and the joker always has lots of cool guns and stuff!

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 06:05 PM
Me too.
based on their academic calendar : ( and i said this couple times lol ), May 23 is the deadline for their grades. But June 7 is the day he took this oral exam for the Spring Semester. June 4 is the start of the Summer Semester. Last day to drop is June 8. Maybe a reporter can ask if they follow this calendar at all. IMO...


Spring Semester 2011-2012
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/GradSchool2011-12.pdf

Summer 2012-2013
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/Academic_Calendar_Graduate_School_2012-13.pdf
Maybe a reporter can asked if they follow this calendar at all. IMO...


hey who cares if your lying - now gotta say this, since they cant seem to get together for BETA , THe evening of July 20, was, I am confident, quite an evening for the admin gang!
so look at what they did that first 48 hours -- kept it loose i do know exact date of anything bla bla
.

rollinginit
08-04-2012, 06:07 PM
From this article......I take it to mean that JH was NOT formally discharged as a student.....so I guess that means he means he was still a student at the UNIV.


Holmes took his oral exam, which is designed to test students' foundational knowledge before they continue the program, on June 7. Holmes sent an email to faculty on June 10 asking to withdraw, and was given a form that requires his advisers' and the dean's signatures. Shur said that Holmes had not filled out the portion of the form that asks for a reason for withdrawal, even though he was encouraged to do so. The form never made it to Shur's desk, so Holmes was not formally withdrawn from the university when he allegedly went on a shooting spree last Friday in a local movie theater.

Shur said that students who fail oral exams are offered help to retake it. "The exam is not to throw students out," he said, adding that it's "very unusual" for a student to drop out of one of CU's graduate programs. Schur said Holmes had excellent academic credentials, and was among a handful of students chosen for a National Institutes of Health training grant in neuroscience.

Officials also confirmed that no dangerous chemicals were found missing from the labs where Holmes worked, and said he lost access to university buildings on June 10. Holmes received at least 50 packages to his home and school in the run-up to the attacks.

BBM me
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 06:09 PM
The meds and if he was prescribed any is something I'd love to know.

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 06:11 PM
From this article......I take it to mean that JH was NOT formally discharged as a student.....so I guess that means he means he was still a student at the UNIV.




BBM me
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html
I take it to mean that JH was NOT formally discharged as a student.....so I guess that means he means he was still a student at the UNIV.


Yeh and see all that IMO is cover up stuff. (Beta can do nothing the doc can do anything - duty to warn mandates she does something - in the school or not she had a therupetic relationship with him of some kind) It is the law and professionial obligation we take (Safety)

THese guys were caught as off guard as the rest the world that night. Oh no, our James Holmes just shot up a theatre? Now, that night July 20) admin knows all about Fenton Beta stuff,James is gone etc and boy do they know we are in deep ####>

If JH did not do JUly 20 he would be walking the streets homeless, MI, etc.

Admin got (HA!) in this jam cause it goes beyond expecation that someone would be the joker and do that.

February
08-04-2012, 06:15 PM
SPECUALTION ALERT:

No, I think he stopped taking his meds . lets go , march, takes a while for em to leave system. APril he starts having more intrusive delsusions (he is the Joker) . The delsuion gets worse , in class he is not listening, he is the joker, does not learn what he needs to for upcoming orals.
But (noone has gone here with me but that 1986 comic book I think is HUGE) I have posted it more than once I digress
Peers/faculity are becoming more afraid , he is getting more and more bizaire. But he is missing his appts with doc. He is getting worse. ANd the Joker has big plans for the 20th. Joker tries to get gun practice at that gun place.
Then the orals happen. More stress. Joker more and more real. He was told get out. More stress. More Joker. Less James Holmes. Does that email (I withdraw yeh right whatever admin).
Delusionial does not = dumb it = delusionial! James Holmes knows he is not allowed in the apt any linger. More stress. Makes the Joker stronger in his every day life. THe Joker takes over and begans procuring what the joker needs for July 20.

IMO, there is a lot of thinking of procuring the stuff as planning wherein IMO it is a delsuion being fufilled. THe Joker plans, he does not fail. ANd he has a costume and the joker always has lots of cool guns and stuff!

Thanks for sharing your theory/speculation :seeya:

Here is my speculations alert too lol :
It is more on stress/ hate / depression /delusional after feeling that the Spring Semester is not going to be good. He could have gotten an argument with one key professor or school admin who possibly told him that he will not make it next semester.... he tried but his motivations went down , he knew from May 22 that he had a failing grades that will appear on May 23 so he purchased his gun on May 22....I think June 7 was just his re-take and he heard this professor again who possible had some devil smile and comments on his oral exam and he bought another gun afterwards..

Liz
08-04-2012, 06:19 PM
"Oh come on admin, if your gonna lie, at least do it at the graduate level.................. "

:floorlaugh:
CARIIS, you're on a roll!

February
08-04-2012, 06:20 PM
"Oh come on admin, if your gonna lie, at least do it at the graduate level.................. "

:floorlaugh:
CARIIS, you're on a roll!

LOL am loving her post!:floorlaugh:

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 06:28 PM
Thanks for sharing your theory/speculation :seeya:

Here is my speculations alert too lol :
It is more on stress/ hate / depression /delusional after feeling that the Spring Semester is not going to be good. He could have gotten an argument with one key professor or school admin who possibly told him that he will not make it next semester.... he tried but his motivations went down , he knew from May 22 that he had a failing grades that will appear on May 23 so he purchased his gun on May 22....I think June 7 was just his re-take and he heard this professor again who possible had some devil smile and comments on his oral exam and he bought another gun afterwards..

Reminds me of how I bought a new guitar every year on the anniversary date that ended in divorce.
It soothed me, but not my pocketbook.

Liz
08-04-2012, 06:31 PM
From this article......I take it to mean that JH was NOT formally discharged as a student.....so I guess that means he means he was still a student at the UNIV.


Holmes took his oral exam, which is designed to test students' foundational knowledge before they continue the program, on June 7. Holmes sent an email to faculty on June 10 asking to withdraw, and was given a form that requires his advisers' and the dean's signatures. Shur said that Holmes had not filled out the portion of the form that asks for a reason for withdrawal, even though he was encouraged to do so. The form never made it to Shur's desk, so Holmes was not formally withdrawn from the university when he allegedly went on a shooting spree last Friday in a local movie theater.

Shur said that students who fail oral exams are offered help to retake it. "The exam is not to throw students out," he said, adding that it's "very unusual" for a student to drop out of one of CU's graduate programs. Schur said Holmes had excellent academic credentials, and was among a handful of students chosen for a National Institutes of Health training grant in neuroscience.



Officials also confirmed that no dangerous chemicals were found missing from the labs where Holmes worked, and said he lost access to university buildings on June 10. Holmes received at least 50 packages to his home and school in the run-up to the attacks.


BBM me
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html

BBM
Are you kidddding me!?
I had a feeling that this may be the case!

Lost access June 10th, eh?
The ever-changing facts and information!

Thanks, Rolling!

JMO, of course.

February
08-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Reminds me of how I bought a new guitar every year on the anniversary date that ended in divorce.
It soothed me.

Oh no :(

Why guitar anyways ?

February
08-04-2012, 06:35 PM
BBM
Are you kidddding me!?
I had a feeling that this may be the case!

Lost access June 10th, eh?
The ever-changing facts and information!

Thanks, Rolling!

JMO, of course.

i thought he lost access to the university on June 12?
How's your timeline doing? it should be posted on the contradicting thread hahahaha

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 06:38 PM
Oh no :(

Why guitar anyways ?

Searching for new identity - Rock Star! Wanna buy a guitar?

Liz
08-04-2012, 06:42 PM
i thought he lost access to the university on June 12?
How's your timeline doing? it should be posted on the contradicting thread hahahaha

Here's what I had:
6-12-12: JH Lost access to secure areas of school
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/dr-lynne-fenton-james-holmes-court-case-psychiatrist-called-threat-team-before-aurora-shooting

February
08-04-2012, 06:44 PM
Searching for new identity - Rock Star! Wanna buy a guitar?

:yourock:

Sorry Rock Star, i am not really into music much but i have some DJ mix in my car that i enjoy everyday and it starts with the Time of my Life by Black Eyed Peas!

Curious Me
08-04-2012, 06:48 PM
Starting to sound like they ran to lock those doors, but he wasn't officially not a student. Or it just sounds that way now. :shush:

CARIIS
08-04-2012, 07:31 PM
Thanks for sharing your theory/speculation :seeya:

Here is my speculations alert too lol :
It is more on stress/ hate / depression /delusional after feeling that the Spring Semester is not going to be good. He could have gotten an argument with one key professor or school admin who possibly told him that he will not make it next semester.... he tried but his motivations went down , he knew from May 22 that he had a failing grades that will appear on May 23 so he purchased his gun on May 22....I think June 7 was just his re-take and he heard this professor again who possible had some devil smile and comments on his oral exam and he bought another gun afterwards..
I just (I got so much heat here re MI until Fenton angle broke! whihc is ok debate is great!) but this kid has been so sick, for so long IMO)

YOu know who has ALL the answers MOM, not the court not the docs Mom! She has lived with her sick child since birth!

Stress is like putting bleach on a cut, BUT the cut is already there in this instance

orora
08-04-2012, 09:04 PM
Without infereing anything MOM does hold the answers. I still question if this were a long time pre-existing MI and whether that was adequately conveyed and passed on to the uni and Fenton? Did they know what they were dealing with and the potential repercussions?

SmoothOperator
08-04-2012, 09:07 PM
Ok I really, really, really hope that I am just misunderstanding, confused, and/or not reading/comprehending correctly.. Am I understanding correctly that the University HAS ALREADY(as in it is already a task well under way)hired Colorado's former Atty General to do an "internal investigation" ala Penn State/Freeh Report???!?!!..

There is an internal investigation taking place as we speak at the University of Colorado Anschultz on all issues concerning and surrounding the shooter, the staff, their BETA team, procedures and processes and were all followed properly as far as both ethically and legally????... Is this correct???

And am I understanding that Dr. Fenton has not yet even been interviewed by neither Aurora LE, nor the FBi, and to date nary a one of her notes, documents, or any other paperwork pertaining to the shooter has been subpoenaed????... NONE OF THESE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND EXTREMELY RELEVANT PROCEDURES HAVE YET BEEN DONE???

Yet the former Attorney General for the state of Colorado has already been retained, briefed, and is already on site in Aurora, CO at the University undertaking the task of "internal investigation" of the University of Colorado Anschultz, paid for by the University of Colorado???.. A former Atty General is presently with full, unfettered access to ALL CRUCIAL EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE MASS MURDERER THAT WAS THEIR STUDENT, PATIENT, etc???.. The crucial evidence that will at some point be used in a United States Court of Criminal Law when the state vs. Holmes goes to trial on 142 felony, criminal charges???.. The very evidence and witnesses that IMO should be first and foremost properly taken into custody(the evidence) and fully debriefed and thoroughly interviewed(the witnesses from the Univ) by LE/FBI Investigators..

All of that crucial evidence and witness accounts and testimony is presently NOT BEING interviewed, subpoenaed, and *held in states evidence by an LE official????... But much much different it is in the hands of an Attorney who is being paid directly by the University themselves to investigate all of this evidence/witnesses that IMO should be NOWHERE EXCEPT in the direct hands of LE officials.. The University is paying an outside now private atty(former CO Atty General) to "uncover" any illegal, unethical blunders, mistakes, and errs that quite possibly led to 12 citizens slaughtered and 58 shot and severely wounded(not to mention the hundreds, better yet thousands that the ripple effect will have majorly impacted their lives in a very real, very negative way).. This private atty who is hired by the University.. The very same University who "possibly" made egregious errors that were both illegal and unethical..?????

Just what in the hell is going on there??? Who in the hell is in charge and calling the shots there???.. Is it the LE/FBI calling the shots as it should be???. ..or is it this one and the same University of Colorado that is fully in charge and calling all the shots there when we are talking matters that are very much meant to be discovered and presented in a court of criminal law???..

I am very, very confused and I am very, very hopeful that someone/anyone will quickly jump in here and tell me that I am very much overreacting and that it is not at all how I have described above and that I am way off base, misinformed, and have completely misunderstood this altogether.. I'm praying that the case is that I'm waaaay wrong and it's nothing of the sort that at this moment I'm freaking out believing it to be.,

Could someone/anyone be so kind as to dummy it on down for me as to what exactly is going on presently??!??

TIA:)

jjenny
08-04-2012, 09:19 PM
Without infereing anything MOM does hold the answers. I still question if this were a long time pre-existing MI and whether that was adequately conveyed and passed on to the uni and Fenton? Did they know what they were dealing with and the potential repercussions?

I haven't heard anything suggesting anyone noticed anything unusual about him prior to graduate school to indicate that he had a long time pre-existing MI. He did very well as an undergraduate student and got into the graduate school. The graduate school, I am sure, interviewed him prior to admission. This is a very competitive program. If he showed up looking like a potted plan, I don't think they would have admitted him. Except being quiet, nobody said they noticed anything unusual as far as I know, and being quiet is not a specific sign of MI.

Nemont
08-04-2012, 09:59 PM
I found this conference room schedule…

www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/physiology/calendar/Pages/Large%20ConferenceRoom.aspx

Perhaps the reason they cancelled his keycard on the 12th is because of the monthly Neuroscience Directors meeting @ 8:30 or the Center Directors meeting from 1:00 - 2:00 pm (which is not a weekly/monthly event).

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:05 PM
It's baaack! Maybe someone else already noticed and I missed it, but the UC Neuroscience website isn't password protected anymore.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Program/Pages/default.aspx

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:17 PM
Neuroscience Grad Program Admissions FAQ:
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Admissions/Pages/FAQs.aspx

3 DAY interview is required...


The Interview Weekends are Thursday-Sunday, Feb. 10 - 13 and Feb. 24-27, 2011


What is the application deadline each year?
For early consideration: December 1, 2010
Final deadline: January 1, 2011

4 Letters of Rec...


What does my completed application need?
•Completed application form (Online Application)
•Include application fee information
•Upload Statement of Purpose, CV, academic and non-academic experience
•Requested test scores to be sent directly from Education Testing Service to the University of Colorado (Institutional Code 4877) A subject code is not required.
•Submit TWO official copies of your transcripts from each college or university attended. Official copies must be sent directly from the college or university attended. They are not ones delivered to the student.
•FOUR letters of recommendation


I submitted my application, now what?
The Admissions Committee will review your application file and decide whether to offer you an interview at our interview weekends in February. If you do not receive an invitation or a letter of decline, your application is put on a waitlist. The Committee has until April 15 to notify you of their decision. Ten to 12 applicants are invited for an interview weekend that starts Thursday night and runs through Sunday morning.

I received an invitation for an interview. What do I need to do next?
The Neuroscience Program Administrator will contact you about your travel and make arrangements convenient for you. All travel arrangements are handled by the Neuroscience Program. The Neuroscience Program covers expenses for transportation, lodging, and meal expenses during your travel and visit. The Neuroscience Program will reimburse you for your out-of-pocket travel expenses. Guidelines for reimbursement will be included in your interview packets.

What happens during the interview weekend?
The events typically include an informal welcome with several current students on Thursday evening, Friday interviews, and informal Friday and Saturday activities. Friday begins with a continental breakfast with current students and faculty. After an overview of the program, 5-8 interviews are scheduled, along with a lunch with current students, and a tour of campus and scientific facilities. Friday evening, there is a buffet dinner with all visiting prospective students, faculty and current students. On Saturday, current students coordinate interesting activities in and around Denver. Saturday evening, several current Neuroscience students host you at dinner, and, afterward, the Graduate Student Council hosts an all-prospective and current student gathering in downtown Denver (LoDo).

What can I expect during the interviews?
The interviews are one-on-one talks with the professors, Admissions Committee faculty, and student Admissions representatives. They last 30 minutes long. You may bring any additional information you would like to share. Current students will escort you to and from your interviews.

Will I be able to talk with other graduate students about their experience in the University of Colorado Neuroscience Program?
Yes, our graduate students play an important and integral part in coordinating our interview weekends. Your Friday escort can answer your questions about the Neuroscience Program and give you the "inside scoop" about their experience here. Candidates will have the opportunity to attend dinners, social events, and see highlights of Denver, all arranged by our current students.

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:20 PM
IMO, i would like to know how he performed on the last 2 semesters prior to this Spring Semester. ]

Summer semester Optional:
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Pages/First_Year.aspx

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:23 PM
Neuroscience Student Handbook
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/NRSC_Handbook_2012_v2.pdf

Nemont
08-04-2012, 10:29 PM
Neuroscience Student Handbook
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/NRSC_Handbook_2012_v2.pdf

That one was revised July 2012 and is quite different from this one Rev. 2008


www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/nsp_handbook.pdf

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:31 PM
Neuroscience Student Handbook
http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/NRSC_Handbook_2012_v2.pdf


Note, it's revised July 2012...


2.0 Student Support. Students accepted in the Ph.D. program are provided full tuition, health insurance, and a stipend of $26,000 per year for living expenses (for the 2012-2013 academic year). Continued support is contingent upon satisfactory academic and research performance by the student. When a student enters a thesis lab, the thesis mentor assumes complete responsibility for the student’s stipend, tuition, fees, and associated research costs. Out of state tuition is paid only in the first year. All students must establish Colorado residency during and by the end of their first year in the program.


3.0 Graduate Training Committee (GTC). Every first year student is assigned a member of the GTC as a mentor. Students are required to meet with their GTC mentors every month to update them on their progress. GTC members provide feedback to first year students on choices of rotation and thesis labs. The students also need to rehearse their rotation talks with their GTC advisors.


4.1.2.7 Effort. While first year students have a substantial course load, the program expects that sufficient time will be devoted to the rotation project. For professionals in training, it is not appropriate to require a minimum number of hours for rotation work. Strong self-motivation is an essential characteristic for an independent scientist, and we expect our students to demonstrate this quality throughout their training. In this regard, students should expect to be in the lab beyond the normal working hours, i.e., at evening, on weekends, and possibly over vacation days during the term. This commitment of time is especially important when long, complex experiments are being done. A major part of the mentor’s rotational assessment (as well as his/her willingness to accept a student) will be based on the degree and quality of lab effort. Students should always discuss time off and/or vacation days with their lab mentor in advance, both in their lab rotations and once they enter a thesis lab.

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:34 PM
Sorry for all the posts...but Handbook (REVISED 2012 July) again:

5. Academic Standards for Neuroscience Graduate Students.
Applicants to the Graduate Program in Neuroscience are highly screened and rigorously evaluated for their potential to become creative and independent scientists. This means that each student in the Program was admitted with the Faculty’s full confidence in their ability to complete training requirements for the Ph.D. Thus, the Program does not operate to weed out students during training. Rather, we regard any dismissal or withdrawal as a serious detriment to the success of our program, and a situation that we will do our best to avoid. However, it infrequently happens that a student will fail to satisfy the Program standards and expectation for academic performance. Given the importance and intensely competitive nature of biomedical research, as well as our commitment to the future of our students, such instances invoke serious concern from the Program. Students should be assured that in an initial instance of failure the Program will do its best to help the student to remediate failure. However, multiple deficiencies indicate a poor prognosis for future success and demand close examination of a student’s tenure in the Program. The GTC is charged with maintaining the academic standards and with evaluating the ability of students to continue with the training in cases of failure. The Academic Standards of the Program are described below, as well as the procedures used by the GTC to deal with performance deficiencies.

February
08-04-2012, 10:39 PM
It's baaack! Maybe someone else already noticed and I missed it, but the UC Neuroscience website isn't password protected anymore.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Program/Pages/default.aspx

LOL public again after they possibly edited it?

Site webmaster will be one of the witnesses IMO...

jjenny
08-04-2012, 10:40 PM
That one was revised July 2012 and is quite different from this one Rev. 2008


www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/nsp_handbook.pdf

What's the differences?

DeadCat
08-04-2012, 10:41 PM
That one was revised July 2012 and is quite different from this one Rev. 2008


www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Curriculum/Documents/nsp_handbook.pdf

Contrast: 2008 Handbook

4.1.4 Preliminary Exam at the End of the First Year: Material covered in first year courses will be tested in an open book examination. The exam consists of two parts, each tested on a different day. Part I tests material relating to IDPT 7801, 7802 and 7803 (structure, cell and molecular biology), and Part II tests material relating to NRSC 7600, 7610 and 7615 (neurobiology). Each of the two exams will be graded on a scale from 0 to 10 and an overall grade will be calculated through a weighted average of Parts I and II. The average will be weighted by the number of credits in the classes whose material is included in each of the two exams. The student must obtain an overall grade of 70 or better to pass the preliminary exam.

2012 Handbook

4.1.4 Preliminary Exam at the End of the First Year: The preliminary exam will be an oral one. An examining committee will be drawn from the course lecturers of NRSC 7600, 7610 and 7615 (see section on first year courses). Each of these courses will have one representative on a student’s exam committee. The exam will last about 45 - 60 min. While the basis of the questions will be integration of material across the courses, the examiners will expand the scope based on perceived strengths and weaknesses of the student. If a student demonstrates appropriate knowledge and integration of the material, no other action is required. However, if deficiencies are noted during the exam, the student will develop a plan to address these weaknesses in consultation with the GTC Chair. In some cases, reexamination might be required. In all cases, problems noted during the exam should be addressed by the end of the fall semester of the second year.

Nemont
08-04-2012, 10:48 PM
What's the differences?

In addition to the above, it also has all the students and faculty listed at the bottom. ie. they revised it July 2012 so that you can't find who his classmates are. I couldn't find anything after Dr. Fenton. ie. 2009. Also, I think she was a Director - so I think she should have been at the Directors meeting on the 12th...

February
08-04-2012, 10:50 PM
Angie Ribera, director of the graduate program in neuroscience and one of several university administrators who spoke with The Post on Friday on the condition that they would not discuss Holmes specifically, said the program in recent years has received about 60 completed applications annually.

The program accepts six students each year, and in some cases they receive funding from the National Institutes of Health. Holmes was accepted into the program and received the funding.

"They need to be the top students that have been admitted," said Diego Restrepo, co-director of the university's Center for NeuroScience, who oversees the NIH training grant.

By all accounts, the handful of students who do gain passage into the program each year find themselves in an engaging but demanding environment. The program's first-year curriculum consists of a set of core class work, as well as three lab rotations intended to help them discover a long-term focus for their research.

"We expect our students to be passionate and to persevere. . . . We expect 150 percent of their intellectual and emotional commitment into that research project," said Barry Shur, dean of the university's graduate school. "It's intense, but there should be passion driving that intensity."

University officials estimated Friday that 10 percent of students drop out of the doctoral program, usually in their first year.

"There are some students that it's just not a right fit," Shur said. "And to force them to stay would be counterproductive."

It remains unclear why Holmes had decided to leave the program in June. But university officials said it would not have been because he failed the hour-long oral exam that all first-year students must take, as some have suggested.

"We don't really grade this exam pass-fail," Ribera said. "Either we tell the student 'No problem,' or we say, 'We notice that there were deficiencies in this area.' Then the chair of the graduate training committee talks to the student and together they come up with a plan to address that deficiency."

Despite the rigorous requirements and high expectations that the first-year neuroscience students face — challenges common to similar programs throughout the country — the officials insisted that the neuroscience doctoral candidates are a tight-knit, collegial group.

"They support each other," Ribera said. "They are remarkably close and supportive."

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/colorado-shooting-suspect-was-seeing-psychiatrist-before/cbe629769f38fde555ff50c55141b857

February
08-04-2012, 11:11 PM
Holmes Failed Preliminary Exam Before Withdrawing
A man accused in a mass shooting at a Colorado theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 more failed a preliminary exam before pulling out of the neurosciences program at Colorado University.
7News' Keli Rabon was told that Holmes would not have been kicked out of the program, because students have an opportunity to improve their performance in the oral exam.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31292454/detail.html


so which one is true.... he failed or not? was this graded or not?
is this a key oral exam that will decide if he needs to continue the program or not?

~n/t~
08-04-2012, 11:30 PM
Do you guys think some famous lawyer will soon come forward to represent
( pro-bono ) JH and the families of many victims?

Yes. Don't know who yet. He/She has to be licensed in Colorado, right?

Nemont
08-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Holmes Failed Preliminary Exam Before Withdrawing
A man accused in a mass shooting at a Colorado theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 more failed a preliminary exam before pulling out of the neurosciences program at Colorado University.
7News' Keli Rabon was told that Holmes would not have been kicked out of the program, because students have an opportunity to improve their performance in the oral exam.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31292454/detail.html


so which one is true.... he failed or not? was this graded or not?
is this a key oral exam that will decide if he needs to continue the program or not?

Everything I've read says he "failed" but doesn't say why…could he have been a "no show" with "no excuse" (no-show = automatic fail?)

February
08-05-2012, 12:06 AM
Everything I've read says he "failed" but doesn't say why…could he have been a "no show" with "no excuse" (no-show = automatic fail?)

He took the oral exam per all the media sites
But we wouldnt know if he failed or pass since according to one news above from Ribiera, they dont grade this as pass or fail

... ...IMO all of a sudden , a change of grading system? when did the changes start since on their 2008 handbook there was a grading system...... cant wait to hear from other students IMO...

waitin'4thewrld2chg
08-05-2012, 12:38 AM
Contrast: 2008 Handbook


2012 Handbook

According to this source, the test went from being a two-part open book exam administered on two different days to a one-day oral exam lasting 45-60 minutes.


Testing of neurobiology is mentioned in both the 2008 and 2012 manuals as being part of the end of the first year prelim exam, but structure, cell and molecular biology are covered in the 2008 exam only.

jjenny
08-05-2012, 01:21 AM
Are there any books between 2008 and 2012 to see when the exam structure changed? Neither of these exams sounds very difficult. Open books means they could use books in 2008 to answer. How hard can it be? And in 2012, they weren't even graded.

Nemont
08-05-2012, 01:49 AM
He took the oral exam per all the media sites
But we wouldnt know if he failed or pass since according to one news above from Ribiera, they dont grade this as pass or fail

... ...IMO all of a sudden , a change of grading system? when did the changes start since on their 2008 handbook there was a grading system...... cant wait to hear from other students IMO...

But where did the info come from? Who told the media that he failed? I can't seem to remember…ie. I have this from www.pe.com/local-news/breaking-news-headlines/20120721-colorado-theater-shooting-ucr-graduate-brings-unwanted-attention.ece

Excerpt:
University of Colorado officials confirmed Holmes enrolled last year in a neuroscience Ph.D. program at the Denver campus, but was in the process of completing withdrawal papers. School officials didn't provide a reason.
University spokeswoman Jacque Montgomery told the Associated Press that first-year students must take a three-part exam at the end of the academic year to move on in the program, but she didn't know whether Holmes had completed the exam or not. As part of the program, Holmes was listed as making a presentation in May about Micro DNA Biomarkers in a class named “Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders.”


It's dated 7/21/12, ... if a UC spokeswoman didn't know whether or not he had completed the exam, but already knew he was withdrawing and the subject of his presentation in May, then who told the media he failed the exam? All I can remember is "it has been reported" that he took the oral exam and failed. Do you remember/know who told the media that he had taken the exam and failed?

February
08-05-2012, 02:00 AM
But where did the info come from? Who told the media that he failed? I can't seem to remember…ie. I have this from www.pe.com/local-news/breaking-news-headlines/20120721-colorado-theater-shooting-ucr-graduate-brings-unwanted-attention.ece

Excerpt:
University of Colorado officials confirmed Holmes enrolled last year in a neuroscience Ph.D. program at the Denver campus, but was in the process of completing withdrawal papers. School officials didn't provide a reason.
University spokeswoman Jacque Montgomery told the Associated Press that first-year students must take a three-part exam at the end of the academic year to move on in the program, but she didn't know whether Holmes had completed the exam or not. As part of the program, Holmes was listed as making a presentation in May about Micro DNA Biomarkers in a class named “Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders.”


It's dated 7/21/12, ... if a UC spokeswoman didn't know whether or not he had taken the exam, but already knew he was withdrawing and the subject of his presentation in May, then who told the media he failed the exam? All I can remember is "it has been reported" that he took the oral exam and failed. Do you remember/know who told the media that he had taken the exam and failed?

I agree with you and i think it is all "sources" who mentioned that he failed.

BBM
Majority of the media mentioned June 7, 2012 and very seldom on May 2012 as the actual presentation. May 2012 seems to be more plausible for me because per Academic Calendar, they have to give final grades by May 23. all IMO.


Here is their academic calendar :)
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/AcademicCalendars/amc/GraduateSchool/GradSchool2011-12.pdf


and look at this : Classes ended in May - what is he doing an oral exam on June 7... Summer Semester started on June 4

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443295404577543400613112424.html?m od=googlenews_wsj
When classes ended in May, the students were required to pass a first-year test referred to as the "prelims." The school said students had to stand before three professors and answer questions.

Shortly after the tests were done, the classmate said, a neuroscience administrator took the group for drinks to tell them Mr. Holmes had dropped out. The administrator said she received a short resignation email from Mr. Holmes that didn't explain why. Some assumed he had gone back to California.

21merc7
08-05-2012, 05:25 AM
From this article......I take it to mean that JH was NOT formally discharged as a student.....so I guess that means he means he was still a student at the UNIV.




BBM me
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html

Catching up here.

If the form to drop out never made it to Shur's desk, why did they take his keycard passes? Who is Shur? If the proper person did not have the form, is this why it is stated "in the process of dropping out"? Who had the form? I hope they have the email about quitting.

DeadCat
08-05-2012, 07:14 AM
And what does this withdrawal form look like anyway? I don't see it on the web or mentioned in the process.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/CostsAndFinancing/DenverCampus/FinancialAid/FinancialAidProcess/Pages/WithdrawingFinancialAid.aspx

rollinginit
08-05-2012, 07:22 AM
And what does this withdrawal form look like anyway? I don't see it on the web or mentioned in the process.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/CostsAndFinancing/DenverCampus/FinancialAid/FinancialAidProcess/Pages/WithdrawingFinancialAid.aspx

This is listed under "types of withdraws"


Types of Withdrawals:
•Official: The student notifies the university that they will cease to be enrolled prior to the end of the standard term.
•Unofficial: Identified as Title IV (federal) aid recipients who received all “F” or combination of “F” and “W” grades for the term.

DeadCat
08-05-2012, 07:27 AM
I saw that. They have a lot of info on the Registrar's webpage and a link on the left to Forms, but I don't see one for withdrawal or even a reference to turning in a specific form on the Procedure for Withdrawal. I was just curious what info was requested on the form. The college (or some anonymous source) said he'd left the reason for withdrawal blank.

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:09 AM
•A projected 6.5 million gross square feet of cutting-edge education, patient care and research space

•More than 500,000 patients served annually
•First to develop a classification and numbering system for human chromosomes
•First to identify a genetic factor that converts normal cells into cancer cells
•First to learn that lymphocytes are pre-programmed to respond to antigens, the foundation of modern immunology
•First to learn how a human cancer gene functions
•First to learn that naturally occurring proteins in the blood prevent the AIDS virus from reproducing and spreading to healthy cells
•Identifier of the first gene that carries the risk of schizophrenia
•Identifier of key molecular mechanisms in the failing human heart that have led to successful development of effective therapies​

In 2010, researchers at the Anschutz Medical Campus earned nearly $400 million in research awards.

Its economic impact on the state amounts to more than $2 billion in direct campus expenditures. The Anschutz Medical Campus directly employs more than 8,000 people and has a total employment impact of more than 17,000 jobs in Colorado.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/denver/Pages/AnschutzMedicalCampus.aspx

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:15 AM
It's baaack! Maybe someone else already noticed and I missed it, but the UC Neuroscience website isn't password protected anymore.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/programs/Neuroscience/Program/Pages/default.aspx
Any notions why it is yanked in the first place hummmmmm!!!!!!!!!!

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:23 AM
BBM
Are you kidddding me!?
I had a feeling that this may be the case!

Lost access June 10th, eh?
The ever-changing facts and information!

Thanks, Rolling!

JMO, of course.
RE:
a form that requires his advisers' and the dean's signatures.
Shur said that Holmes had not filled out the portion of the form that asks for a reason for withdrawal
C The form never made it to Shur's desk

For the first 72 hours admin danced with vol withdraw / turn off key card SOP

My goodness, it sounds to me like they took his "keys" to the office away before the resignation letter read HA!

IMO, they were scared of him

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:27 AM
Without infereing anything MOM does hold the answers. I still question if this were a long time pre-existing MI and whether that was adequately conveyed and passed on to the uni and Fenton? Did they know what they were dealing with and the potential repercussions?
question if this were a long time pre-existing MI

IMO:
since fertilization!

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:32 AM
Ok I really, really, really hope that I am just misunderstanding, confused, and/or not reading/comprehending correctly.. Am I understanding correctly that the University HAS ALREADY(as in it is already a task well under way)hired Colorado's former Atty General to do an "internal investigation" ala Penn State/Freeh Report???!?!!..

There is an internal investigation taking place as we speak at the University of Colorado Anschultz on all issues concerning and surrounding the shooter, the staff, their BETA team, procedures and processes and were all followed properly as far as both ethically and legally????... Is this correct???

And am I understanding that Dr. Fenton has not yet even been interviewed by neither Aurora LE, nor the FBi, and to date nary a one of her notes, documents, or any other paperwork pertaining to the shooter has been subpoenaed????... NONE OF THESE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND EXTREMELY RELEVANT PROCEDURES HAVE YET BEEN DONE???

Yet the former Attorney General for the state of Colorado has already been retained, briefed, and is already on site in Aurora, CO at the University undertaking the task of "internal investigation" of the University of Colorado Anschultz, paid for by the University of Colorado???.. A former Atty General is presently with full, unfettered access to ALL CRUCIAL EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE MASS MURDERER THAT WAS THEIR STUDENT, PATIENT, etc???.. The crucial evidence that will at some point be used in a United States Court of Criminal Law when the state vs. Holmes goes to trial on 142 felony, criminal charges???.. The very evidence and witnesses that IMO should be first and foremost properly taken into custody(the evidence) and fully debriefed and thoroughly interviewed(the witnesses from the Univ) by LE/FBI Investigators..

All of that crucial evidence and witness accounts and testimony is presently NOT BEING interviewed, subpoenaed, and *held in states evidence by an LE official????... But much much different it is in the hands of an Attorney who is being paid directly by the University themselves to investigate all of this evidence/witnesses that IMO should be NOWHERE EXCEPT in the direct hands of LE officials.. The University is paying an outside now private atty(former CO Atty General) to "uncover" any illegal, unethical blunders, mistakes, and errs that quite possibly led to 12 citizens slaughtered and 58 shot and severely wounded(not to mention the hundreds, better yet thousands that the ripple effect will have majorly impacted their lives in a very real, very negative way).. This private atty who is hired by the University.. The very same University who "possibly" made egregious errors that were both illegal and unethical..?????

Just what in the hell is going on there??? Who in the hell is in charge and calling the shots there???.. Is it the LE/FBI calling the shots as it should be???. ..or is it this one and the same University of Colorado that is fully in charge and calling all the shots there when we are talking matters that are very much meant to be discovered and presented in a court of criminal law???..

I am very, very confused and I am very, very hopeful that someone/anyone will quickly jump in here and tell me that I am very much overreacting and that it is not at all how I have described above and that I am way off base, misinformed, and have completely misunderstood this altogether.. I'm praying that the case is that I'm waaaay wrong and it's nothing of the sort that at this moment I'm freaking out believing it to be.,

Could someone/anyone be so kind as to dummy it on down for me as to what exactly is going on presently??!??

TIA:)
Just what in the hell is going on there???
Very dissapponited you did not read my recipe! HA Kidding ya. Everyone is getting ready I visualize a boxing ring with 12 corners
corner 1 lawyers and Dr Fen
next corner lawyers and admin
next corner lawyers and 1 Beta team member

next corner lawyers and 1 Beta team member
next corner lawyers and 1 Beta team member
next corner lawyers anda facuility member
next corner lawyers and his mentor

etc

all a dance and I think the judge is gonna take forever to go through privildeged commun, informed consent, duty to warn etc F O R E V E R

DeadCat
08-05-2012, 09:40 AM
I visualize a boxing ring with 12 corners

You might be right. There will be a lot of folks with different interests here and a big blame game. JH and company will want to put blame on University, Fenton, BETA team, theater...Each will try to place blame on the other players in turn. I wonder how long it will take the uni to make Fenton or BETA team their scapegoat....

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:43 AM
Great post, now a lot of folks , hopefully, will understand that the admin declaration that he went poof and vol withdrew is IMO, hogwash - just really does not happen - its not in any programs benefit to , after spending so much time to allow you in -

-what was that if the glove dont fit or whatever!

And at some level from the onset when they started wtih all this vol w/d it was insulting like how stupid do you think folks are, all that Ferpa nonsense in the beginning Ferpa specifically outlines the very same exceptions :


Here IS what Ferpa DOES say:

One threshold point that is often overlooked is that FERPA limits only the disclosure of records and information from records about a student.

It does not limit disclosure or discussion of personal observations.


In other words, if a college or university employee develops a concern about a student based on the employee’s observations of or personal interactions with the student, the employee may disclose that concern to anyone without violating, or even implicating, FERPA.

Even when information is part of a student’s records and therefore covered by FERPA, the law provides several exceptions that permit appropriate communications under circumstances in which the student or others may be at risk of harm.

In some circumstances, FERPA has been invoked as the reason not to share student information, when in reality the law would permit disclosure

information regarding the results of certain student conduct proceedings involving violence to the general public

;

http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/08/07/ferpa

songline
08-05-2012, 10:53 AM
Do you guys think some famous lawyer will soon come forward to represent
( pro-bono ) JH and the families of many victims?


For the victims I can see it. People will like that.
For JH - IMO would not be in Famous attorneys best interest... too many people are very angry with JH.
I can’t imagine a well known to take that one probono.

Nemont
08-05-2012, 02:58 PM
I couldn't open the above linked re: FERPA…but here is the UC one

www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Documents/FERPA%20Resources.pdf

I also found their withdrawal form, it's here: www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/RegistrarForms/AMC/withdrawal.pdf

and it does say that "NOTE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE WITHDRAWN UNTIL THIS FORM IS SUBMITTED TO THE REGISTRAR’S OFFICE."

So, I think, "technically", he was still a student.

rollinginit
08-05-2012, 03:11 PM
RE:
a form that requires his advisers' and the dean's signatures.
Shur said that Holmes had not filled out the portion of the form that asks for a reason for withdrawal
C The form never made it to Shur's desk

For the first 72 hours admin danced with vol withdraw / turn off key card SOP

My goodness, it sounds to me like they took his "keys" to the office away before the resignation letter read HA!

IMO, they were scared of him

I am starting to agree with you about them getting rid of him first. In the thread for the pre purchases he made....I started a timeline. I was just looking at the timeline and this stood out:
First 10 days of June....Univer. was warned
June 10, he dropped out (or June 12...different article list the 10th or the 12th)

So the college says they were warned the first 10 days of June (but what if it was on the 10th), but couldn't remember the exact date.....and he "dropped" out either on the 10th or 12th.
Hmmmmmmm? If they dropped him....the information had to be BAD and there had to be proof? Right?

Here's the links about the dates I posted above:
UNIV WARNED:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...t-8001914.html
QUIT SCHOOL:http://www.freep.com/article/2012072...scientists-say

jjenny
08-05-2012, 03:46 PM
I couldn't open the above linked re: FERPA…but here is the UC one

www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Documents/FERPA%20Resources.pdf

I also found their withdrawal form, it's here: www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/RegistrarForms/AMC/withdrawal.pdf

and it does say that "NOTE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE WITHDRAWN UNTIL THIS FORM IS SUBMITTED TO THE REGISTRAR’S OFFICE."

So, I think, "technically", he was still a student.

As I understand it, he did submit the form. What he didn't list was the reason why he was quitting.

DeadCat
08-05-2012, 03:51 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html


Holmes sent an email to faculty on June 10 asking to withdraw, and was given a form that requires his advisers' and the dean's signatures. Shur said that Holmes had not filled out the portion of the form that asks for a reason for withdrawal, even though he was encouraged to do so. The form never made it to Shur's desk, so Holmes was not formally withdrawn from the university when he allegedly went on a shooting spree last Friday in a local movie theater.


CU officials defend academic, personal support available to Holmes - The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21140571/cu-officials-defend-academic-personal-support-available-holmes#ixzz22hfuEd4X


When Holmes withdrew, he was required to fill out a form saying it was voluntary. Program directors then sign off on it and send it to the dean. As part of that process, the directors try to determine why the student is leaving the program. However, Holmes left that area blank on his withdrawal form.

Shur said that paperwork was being processed for Holmes but had not been completed.

"You have to understand that the program directors are with these students daily. This is not something where they're saying, 'Oh, maybe I'll see the student in six months,' " he said. "This is a family. It's a team-building environment. They're very much in contact with the students in the program.

DeadCat
08-05-2012, 03:58 PM
As I understand it, he did submit the form. What he didn't list was the reason why he was quitting.

This is confusing. I'm not sure I understand either--did he submit the form, missing signatures? I think Shur's was required.

Adobe Acrobat Reader does have a tab at the top of this form that the person filling it in can click on to request signatures (via email?) I've never used this feature, but perhaps students do this all online and request signatures and then all the parties listed (about 5-6 departments) sign electronically. So maybe it didn't reach Shur's "desk" because it was in his email....

February
08-05-2012, 04:22 PM
http://m.yahoo.com/w/legobpengine/news/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=US&.lang=en-US

He was given a form but he didnt put the reason of withdrawal, but the form still have to go to the dean for signature, barry shur said the form didnt reach his desk. See link..

jjenny
08-05-2012, 04:27 PM
http://m.yahoo.com/w/legobpengine/news/blogs/lookout/cu-officials-defend-faculty-handling-james-holmes-withdrawal-205251926.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=US&.lang=en-US

He was given a form but he didnt put the reason of withdrawal, but the form still have to go to the dean for signature, barry shur said the form didnt reach his desk. See link..

Even if it didn't reach the dean, it looks like JH still submitted it. So they are considering him as withdrawn.

February
08-05-2012, 04:31 PM
Even if it didn't reach the dean, it looks like JH still submitted it. So they are considering him as withdrawn.

The dean has to sign it off and also their Billing to send final bills, and deal with other services like student insurance and etc..

rollinginit
08-05-2012, 04:34 PM
Even if it didn't reach the dean, it looks like JH still submitted it. So they are considering him as withdrawn.

I take it to mean....technically, he was still a student there. They had not finalized the paperwork yet.


so Holmes was not formally withdrawn from the university when he allegedly went on a shooting spree last Friday in a local movie theater.

BBM

rollinginit
08-05-2012, 05:12 PM
A detailed article about the grant.


Then Holmes was chosen for inclusion in a National Institutes of Health grant program designed to train the best and brightest for careers as neuroscience researchers.

Each year, Diego Restrepo, co-director of CU Denver's NeuroScience Center, and a group of faculty select three of the most promising first-year doctoral students and three second-year students to split the grant.

It covers tuition and fees, and provides a stipend for living expenses, in part because the rigorous neuroscience program hardly leaves time for students to work.

The NIH awards the grant, in Restrepo's name, to the university. The intent of the grant is not to support any particular research but to train future neuroscientists, Restrepo said.


First-year students, such as Holmes, rotate through three labs, working with a different researcher in each for 12 weeks.

At the end of that first year — the program continues almost year-round — "the student sits down with three faculty members, for 45 minutes to an hour. The three faculty members represent the three courses," Ribera said


Federal stipends, common at neuroscience graduate programs across the country, allow students to devote their time to coursework and lab work, Ashe said.

"It's very unusual for students in our program or most other neuroscience programs to have jobs," he said. "It's unrealistic."






http://www.denverpost.com/theatershooting/ci_21238561/holmes-part-intellectual-elite-before-aurora-theater-massacre

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 08:41 PM
Holmes Failed Preliminary Exam Before Withdrawing
A man accused in a mass shooting at a Colorado theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 more failed a preliminary exam before pulling out of the neurosciences program at Colorado University.
7News' Keli Rabon was told that Holmes would not have been kicked out of the program, because students have an opportunity to improve their performance in the oral exam.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31292454/detail.html


so which one is true.... he failed or not? was this graded or not?
is this a key oral exam that will decide if he needs to continue the program or not?
would not have been kicked out of the program,

As sensed from day one he did not withdraw, had nothing to do with perofrmance......solely about his increasingly odd and scary behavior ..................

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 08:44 PM
Everything I've read says he "failed" but doesn't say why…could he have been a "no show" with "no excuse" (no-show = automatic fail?)
Word failed never used .... did not do well , when your the joker (and lots to do for th eopening of th epic your busy ) it is hard to pay attention to this stuff. James excels there not the Joker.

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Catching up here.

If the form to drop out never made it to Shur's desk, why did they take his keycard passes? Who is Shur? If the proper person did not have the form, is this why it is stated "in the process of dropping out"? Who had the form? I hope they have the email about quitting.
why did they take his keycard passes?

TY! They were scared of him and threw him out on the street --- IMO.

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 08:52 PM
I saw that. They have a lot of info on the Registrar's webpage and a link on the left to Forms, but I don't see one for withdrawal or even a reference to turning in a specific form on the Procedure for Withdrawal. I was just curious what info was requested on the form. The college (or some anonymous source) said he'd left the reason for withdrawal blank.
Cause ya really dont withdraw , if there are problems, rare, peers would even help a colleague, in this kind of setting, you all are routing for each other, respecting one another, your an esttemed bright group, your all in and doing it !

It is a wonderfully collaborative experience - supportive. Happy for one antoher when each of us slam it !

Now if your father got run over by an airplane(!) everyone would work with you to be down for a semester and come back and excell and earn your credential

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 08:56 PM
I couldn't open the above linked re: FERPA…but here is the UC one

www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/BETA/Documents/FERPA%20Resources.pdf

I also found their withdrawal form, it's here: www.ucdenver.edu/student-services/resources/registrar/Documents/RegistrarForms/AMC/withdrawal.pdf

and it does say that "NOTE THAT YOU WILL NOT BE WITHDRAWN UNTIL THIS FORM IS SUBMITTED TO THE REGISTRAR’S OFFICE."

So, I think, "technically", he was still a student.
IMO, they did not worry about any of that until he became the biggest mass murdered since Cho, they all knew what had transpired early June , there was no rush to worry (except locking him out key card) noone would have known anything (nor really cared its paperwork) till July 20 ......................

Nemont
08-05-2012, 09:03 PM
Word failed never used .... did not do well , when your the joker (and lots to do for th eopening of th epic your busy ) it is hard to pay attention to this stuff. James excels there not the Joker.

okay…the MEDIA has said repeatedly that he "failed" see 3 linked articles below indicating he "failed"

James Holmes Bought Rifle After Failing Oral Exam at University of Colorado

http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UB8jumDRf5s

Holmes Failed Preliminary Exam Before Withdrawing
www.vcstar.com/news/2012/jul/21/holmes-failed-preliminary-exam-withdrawing/

James Holmes bought assault rifle the same day he failed exam
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/james-holmes-bought-assault-rifle-day-failed-exam-article-1.1121463#ixzz22j9LI3yA


The UNIVERSITY has not said that he failed or acknowledged that he even took the test. IF someone has a quote from a source who would KNOW ie. either James himself, or someone from the Univ. whether or not he took the test and/or failed, I'd appreciate if they would post it.

Liz
08-05-2012, 09:25 PM
why did they take his keycard passes?

TY! They were scared of him and threw him out on the street --- IMO.

It's not clear to me that JH's keycards were taken or turned in by him or neither. As in, maybe the locks were changed so that JH's keycard(s) no longer worked.

Specifically due to an article (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31324092/detail.html) I'm recalling that quoted Dean Barry Shur, Anshutz, stating that JH never returned after June 10th. Found it:


In a news conference last week, CU Anschutz Medical Campus Graduate School Dean Barry Shur said Holmes dropped out of the CU Ph.D Neuroscience program on June 10.

"My understanding, he has not been back on campus where the program is since that time," he said last week.

Liz
08-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Cause ya really dont withdraw , if there are problems, rare, peers would even help a colleague, in this kind of setting, you all are routing for each other, respecting one another, your an esttemed bright group, your all in and doing it !

It is a wonderfully collaborative experience - supportive. Happy for one antoher when each of us slam it !

Now if your father got run over by an airplane(!) everyone would work with you to be down for a semester and come back and excell and earn your credential

Maybe they were all tired of being overwhelmed by the smell of the gas fumes, JH could've been emitting. (You know, the ten gallons he 'allegedly' had in his apartment.) J/k, I think.

BTW, I've never heard of anyone being run over by an airplane. ;)

Nemont
08-05-2012, 09:32 PM
Liz…Keycards are simple programming…delete the card number from the system and it no longer works. No locks to change and if the card is not returned, no problem. Interesting about keycard, tho, is that it records when you use/swipe them. ie. when you enter/exit.

Liz
08-05-2012, 09:46 PM
okay…the MEDIA has said repeatedly that he "failed" see 3 linked articles below indicating he "failed"

James Holmes Bought Rifle After Failing Oral Exam at University of Colorado

http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-bought-rifle-failing-oral-exam-university/story?id=16850268#.UB8jumDRf5s

Holmes Failed Preliminary Exam Before Withdrawing
www.vcstar.com/news/2012/jul/21/holmes-failed-preliminary-exam-withdrawing/

James Holmes bought assault rifle the same day he failed exam
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/james-holmes-bought-assault-rifle-day-failed-exam-article-1.1121463#ixzz22j9LI3yA


The UNIVERSITY has not said that he failed or acknowledged that he even took the test. IF someone has a quote from a source who would KNOW ie. either James himself, or someone from the Univ. whether or not he took the test and/or failed, I'd appreciate if they would post it.


Exactly, Nemont. Post #10 in the conflicting reports thread also alludes to this.

CARIIS
08-05-2012, 09:53 PM
OT OT

WHAT is going on around this place:

Shooting at Sikh temple in Wisconsin leaves at least 7 dead, including gunman

February
08-06-2012, 12:23 AM
It's not clear to me that JH's keycards were taken or turned in by him or neither. As in, maybe the locks were changed so that JH's keycard(s) no longer worked.

Specifically due to an article (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31324092/detail.html) I'm recalling that quoted Dean Barry Shur, Anshutz, stating that JH never returned after June 10th. Found it:

Per some articles, he wrote the school an email that he's withdrawing, i wonder who will even process it on the 10th that is sunday, if he didnt come back on the 10th then how will he even submit any form to them and leave the withdrawal reason? Did he return the form by email? .

February
08-06-2012, 12:24 AM
Brb...am mobile...will catch up later

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 01:16 AM
Which makes all of em worse, just ignore him and discard him into the world....

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 01:30 AM
As I understand it, he did submit the form. What he didn't list was the reason why he was quitting.
Admin says he did not say!

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 01:33 AM
Maybe they were all tired of being overwhelmed by the smell of the gas fumes, JH could've been emitting. (You know, the ten gallons he 'allegedly' had in his apartment.) J/k, I think.

BTW, I've never heard of anyone being run over by an airplane. ;)
I Do have ability to be a dash dramatic!

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 01:47 AM
are all reporting the warnings signs given to a three member assessment team, indicating that Holmes was contemplating a mass murder. Ignoring the warnings is turning

http://www.examiner.com/article/james-holmes-notebook-focus-of-batman-shootings-people-ignored-warning-signs

Never heard a number on the team -- even more repulsive how hard in this day and age can it be to get two other people togetyer?

I had this image of it being lots of people that they had such a hard time doing it!

HastingsChi
08-06-2012, 01:56 AM
are all reporting the warnings signs given to a three member assessment team, indicating that Holmes was contemplating a mass murder. Ignoring the warnings is turning

http://www.examiner.com/article/james-holmes-notebook-focus-of-batman-shootings-people-ignored-warning-signs

Never heard a number on the team -- even more repulsive how hard in this day and age can it be to get two other people togetyer?

I had this image of it being lots of people that they had such a hard time doing it!

The Examiner? Was a link from the Weekly World News unavailable?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 02:05 AM
In most court cases, documents are available to the public, but Judge William Sylvester sealed the Holmes case on July 20 at the request of prosecutors. Major media organizations have asked the judge to unseal the documents, citing the public's right of access.

Sylvester has set a hearing for Thursday to decide whether to do so. He has asked prosecutors to respond to the motion by Monday and Holmes's lawyers by Thursday, according to an attorney for the media companies.

Boy would that be awesome if its opened up a bit !

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/05/us-usa-shooting-denver-rights-idUSBRE8740FF20120805

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 02:08 AM
In their motion, the media companies argued that Sylvester's order "violates the public's constitutional right of access to the records of criminal prosecutions, and undermines our nation's firm commitment to the transparency and public accountability of the criminal justice system."

The Associated Press, ABC Inc, Bloomberg LP, The Denver Post, and The New York Times Co. Thomson Reuters was not part of the motion.
law and precedent require that judges start with the presumption that all court records should be open to the public, according to experts.

"You don't have a presumption of sealing," said Jonathan Sherman, ......."You have a presumption of openness."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/05/us-usa-shooting-denver-rights-idUSBRE8740FF20120805

HastingsChi
08-06-2012, 02:11 AM
In their motion, the media companies argued that Sylvester's order "violates the public's constitutional right of access to the records of criminal prosecutions, and undermines our nation's firm commitment to the transparency and public accountability of the criminal justice system."

The Associated Press, ABC Inc, Bloomberg LP, The Denver Post, and The New York Times Co. Thomson Reuters was not part of the motion.
law and precedent require that judges start with the presumption that all court records should be open to the public, according to experts.

"You don't have a presumption of sealing," said Jonathan Sherman, ......."You have a presumption of openness."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/05/us-usa-shooting-denver-rights-idUSBRE8740FF20120805


Your last two posts belong in the media updates thread, NOT this thread. They have nothing to do with this topic.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 2

CARIIS
08-06-2012, 02:19 AM
there is no easy way to go about knowing if the client or patient sitting across from you will one day be responsible for murdering a dozen people. It is, however, up to and the responsibility of the professional with close contact to read the signs, take every thought or expression seriously, and be aware that no disturbing hint or feeling should go ignored, because it could save lives.
.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/12339/james-eagan-holmes-psychiatrist-warned-but-was-ignored-before-aurora-shooting

rollinginit
08-06-2012, 06:14 AM
Well, lets say the Univ did get rid of JH and that JH's did not drop out. Or it could have even been a mutual agreement between both. Maybe the Univ suggested it and JH agreed or was forced to agree. That could have been the breaking point for him.???????

But for a univ to do that.....they must have heard and had proof of something.

Whatever happened....the Univ. acted fast with cutting his access off.

The school was warned in the "first 10 days of June" and he never returned after June 10th and he also happened to withdrawal on June 10th.????

Maybe that is why he doesn't have a reason written down for withdrawal. Couldn't the school have told him......."You need to withdraw for such and such reason. If you do, we won't mark your permanent record with why..we will just let you withdrawal"

Just MOO

songline
08-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Well, lets say the Univ did get rid of JH and that JH's did not drop out. Or it could have even been a mutual agreement between both. Maybe the Univ suggested it and JH agreed or was forced to agree. That could have been the breaking point for him.???????

But for a univ to do that.....they must have heard and had proof of something.

Whatever happened....the Univ. acted fast with cutting his access off.

The school was warned in the "first 10 days of June" and he never returned after June 10th and he also happened to withdrawal on June 10th.????

Maybe that is why he doesn't have a reason written down for withdrawal. Couldn't the school have told him......."You need to withdraw for such and such reason. If you do, we won't mark your permanent record with why..we will just let you withdrawal"

Just MOO

Many good points especially that they cut his access off instantly.

newsleuther
08-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Many good points especially that they cut his access off instantly.

In these days, access is cut off instantly with the click of a mouse. At my job, access is restricted immediately for every employee who leaves the company, or even goes on a leave of absence or medical leave, good circumstances or bad.

newsleuther
08-07-2012, 04:01 PM
For all we know, Dr Fenton could have contacted police to try to initiate a 72 hour hold, and may not have been able to. They are not as easy to get as people assume, and generally the first step is having the patient taken to ER by police for assessment.

jjenny
08-07-2012, 04:06 PM
In these days, access is cut off instantly with the click of a mouse. At my job, access is restricted immediately for every employee who leaves the company, or even goes on a leave of absence or medical leave, good circumstances or bad.

But you can only cut access to areas protected by key cards. College campuses are not like high school-they are multiple buildings and a lot of areas not protected by key cards.
If he really wanted to, removal key card access wouldn't have prevented him from going after the university.

newsleuther
08-07-2012, 04:10 PM
But you can only cut access to areas protected by key cards. College campuses are not like high school-they are multiple buildings and a lot of areas not protected by key cards.
If he really wanted to, removal key card access wouldn't have prevented him from going after the university.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that it's not so suspicious that his access was quickly cut off.

Liz
08-07-2012, 04:11 PM
IMO, the university wouldn't have provided him with enough targets. He's probably not all that great of a shot, when it comes down to it. JMO MOO

21merc7
08-07-2012, 04:19 PM
IMO, the university wouldn't have provided him with enough targets. He's probably not all that great of a shot, when it comes down to it. JMO MOO

My thoughts exactly.

jjenny
08-07-2012, 04:36 PM
Absolutely. I'm just saying that it's not so suspicious that his access was quickly cut off.

Agreed. It doesn't take long to remove his key card access. But in all likelihood that wouldn't have stopped him from going back on campus if he wanted to.

February
08-07-2012, 04:41 PM
IMO, the university wouldn't have provided him with enough targets. He's probably not all that great of a shot, when it comes down to it. JMO MOO

Not only that July 20 is - SUMMER Semester...it wont stop him but how many students will be in one room taking summer classes... he has to go room to room to more rooms to get more targets IMO..

Summer semester started June 4

February
08-07-2012, 05:26 PM
But with this strict security and monitored doors, you think he can get in without the access card?

Can some parrots tell me where they will enter to get in?

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/FacilitiesManagement/Documents/AMC.pdf

The Electronic Security Department controls and monitors physical access for all CU Anschutz buildings and sites owned or leased for use by the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus, via the installation and maintenance of electronic perimeter security devices, as well as through issuance of university identification badges/key-cards. In addition, we utilize our security system to help monitor research equipment.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/ABOUT/DEPARTMENTS/UNIVERSITYPOLICE/BADGINGSECURITYSERVICES/Pages/BadgingSecurityServices.aspx


Security Systems Services equips all exterior doors to all buildings with access control devices and/or door position monitoring; all buildings have, by default, at least one card-controlled door in its secure perimeter. We also install alarms, panic devices, CCTV monitoring and research equipment monitoring for research laboratories and other restricted zones adjacent to public areas within the same building.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/BadgingSecurityServices/SecuritySystems/Pages/SecuritySystems.aspx

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/BadgingSecurityServices/Documents/AccessCntrl-policy.pdf

Liz
08-07-2012, 06:10 PM
Not only that July 20 is - SUMMER Semester...it wont stop him but how many students will be in one room taking summer classes... he has to go room to room to more rooms to get more targets IMO..

Summer semester started June 4

But the looming question isss, would he be able to get on campus and into the building?? :waitasec:

newsleuther
08-07-2012, 06:20 PM
But with this strict security and monitored doors, you think he can get in without the access card?

Can some parrots tell me where they will enter to get in?

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/FacilitiesManagement/Documents/AMC.pdf

The Electronic Security Department controls and monitors physical access for all CU Anschutz buildings and sites owned or leased for use by the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus, via the installation and maintenance of electronic perimeter security devices, as well as through issuance of university identification badges/key-cards. In addition, we utilize our security system to help monitor research equipment.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/ABOUT/DEPARTMENTS/UNIVERSITYPOLICE/BADGINGSECURITYSERVICES/Pages/BadgingSecurityServices.aspx

Security Systems Services equips all exterior doors to all buildings with access control devices and/or door position monitoring; all buildings have, by default, at least one card-controlled door in its secure perimeter. We also install alarms, panic devices, CCTV monitoring and research equipment monitoring for research laboratories and other restricted zones adjacent to public areas within the same building.
http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/BadgingSecurityServices/SecuritySystems/Pages/SecuritySystems.aspx

http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/departments/UniversityPolice/BadgingSecurityServices/Documents/AccessCntrl-policy.pdf

My school was the same way.

People would just hold the door for you and let you in.

February
08-07-2012, 06:35 PM
My school was the same way.

People would just hold the door for you and let you in.

well isnt you believe he acted alone? so who is this people ( with access cards ) who will just hold the door for you?... Remember, they will be on the video monitor too ..

February
08-07-2012, 06:39 PM
But the looming question isss, would he be able to get on campus and into the building?? :waitasec:


i dont know how look....

Security Systems Services equips all exterior doors to all buildings with access control devices and/or door position monitoring; all buildings have, by default, at least one card-controlled door in its secure perimeter. We also install alarms, panic devices, CCTV monitoring and research equipment monitoring for research laboratories and other restricted zones adjacent to public areas within the same building.


maybe some parrots will go fly up to the open window and open the door for him..IMO

newsleuther
08-07-2012, 06:39 PM
well isnt you believe he acted alone? so who is this people ( with access cards ) who will just hold the door for you?... Remember, they will be on the video monitor too ..

I'm honestly not 100% sure he acted alone.

But, these people are other students. They see you running up to the door and hold it, or you say "damn I left my card" and they let you in. Happened on a daily basis at my school, quite common.

You've never had this happen at say, an ATM vestibule, at work, at your apartment building, at any place that is locked?

rollinginit
08-07-2012, 06:41 PM
The University of Colorado has retained a private attorney to represent a campus police officer in connection with the events leading up to the July 20 massacre at an Aurora movie

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21257149/cu-hires-attorneys-officer-psychiatrist-tied-holmes

They also got the attorney for Fenton.

February
08-07-2012, 06:45 PM
I'm honestly not 100% sure he acted alone.

But, these people are other students. They see you running up to the door and hold it, or you say "damn I left my card" and they let you in. Happened on a daily basis at my school, quite common.

You've never had this happen at say, an ATM vestibule, at work, at your apartment building, at any place that is locked?


what's the percentage buddy 99.5 %? LOL

Do you think he will take that risk when he doesnt know how many people are really inside that room? He wants to kill as much as he wants --- that is obvious with the number of ammunition he bought.

JH went inside first to look around where he will throw that gas can and he will fire first IMO.
If you think he isnt insane, and he was planning it, then you will also believe the fact that he intentionally chose the location with many victims as much as his ammunition can be fired all at the same time IMO

February
08-07-2012, 06:50 PM
The University of Colorado has retained a private attorney to represent a campus police officer in connection with the events leading up to the July 20 massacre at an Aurora movie

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21257149/cu-hires-attorneys-officer-psychiatrist-tied-holmes

They also got the attorney for Fenton.

the university is providing Fenton with the lawyer? Bad idea for Fenton, she should get her own personal lawyer IMO.

wondering if we will hear next is the campus police contacted non-emergency LE and no one is answering.... remember one neighbor witness said that he tried to contact non-emergency LE but no one was answering