PDA

View Full Version : Andrea Yates' Conviction Overturned



Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:24 AM
For those of you who dont remember - this is the woman who drowned her 4 children and then methodically wrapped them in blankets and laid them out on her bed while her husband was away at work!

peggy
01-06-2005, 10:25 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/

WOW, this is huge! Thanks for breaking news...

Casshew
01-06-2005, 10:27 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:27 AM
This is wonderful news. If Andrea Yates doesn't qualify as being criminally insane, they need to throw that defense out the window. Hopefully, she'll be sent to a psychiatric hospital for life. Prison for her was NOT right!!!

kato
01-06-2005, 10:28 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/


Oh crap! Instead of being in prison she'll probably be sent to a state mental hospital like Rusk. I know the woman is sick BUT she sure wasn't too out of it to call 911 and fess up to what she did. If you're so messed up you're not gonna have the presence of mind to call the cops. She knew what she did was wrong. JMO Sorry, I'm just a hard *ss when it comes to killing kids. Especially 5 at one time mind you!

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:30 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I am hearing that the State will file for a retrial and ask the court of appeals to review - IF IF they do not rehear it - goes back to the original pre-trial phase. Something about an expert witness testifying that she is totally sane - and prejudicing the jury or something - details are quite sketchy... She will not be going home anytime soon though.

englishleigh
01-06-2005, 10:31 AM
Not sure where to post this, so I will start here and it can be moved if needed. Andrea Yates' conviction for drowning her 5 children has just been overturned, by reason of insanity. A three-judge panel in TX has decided to give her a new trial...they believe she was insane at the time of the murders.

Casshew
01-06-2005, 10:32 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:32 AM
She'll get a new trial. The court said the DA expert Park Dietz used an example of a Law and Order episode that never aired in his testimony.

O/T and I'll move it in a bit :D

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?


I think he was in the process of trying to divorce her recently - Was remarrying or something - I will find out

kato
01-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?


Yes, he does support her. He was on a show a couple months ago. (don't remember which one). He has filed for divorce.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:34 AM
There's a thread in the parking lot too!!!

MrsMush99
01-06-2005, 10:34 AM
Will she get out of jail now? On Bail? I can't say I'm surprised.

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 10:37 AM
Just heard that too. Likely she'll be found guilty again in a second trial that sentences her to a mental hospital......where she'll be released someday.

Rusty has divorced her, I read

IMO

jamesbrown
01-06-2005, 10:38 AM
She'll get a new trial. The court said the DA expert Park Dietz used an example of a Law and Order episode that never aired in his testimony.

O/T and I'll move it in a bit :D

I never saw a more insane person in my entire life! She deserves a new trial.

lisag
01-06-2005, 10:41 AM
I am not sure how I feel about this... She was obviously sick, but.... I dunno... All I can think of is those poor babies and how scared they must have been.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:42 AM
No. The prosecutor has to decide what his next move will be. He can appeal this decision. If that fails, he must decide whether to retry her or not. I'm sure she'll remain in prision pending the decisions and/or the new trial. I hope that she's sentenced to a mental institution where she should have been all along!

Here's an article from the Dallas Morning News:


Andrea Yates HOUSTON - A state appeals court has overturned the capital murder convictions against Andrea Yates and ordered a new trial in the drownings of her children.

The Texas First Court of Appeals issued its ruling in Houston Thursday in a 12-page opinion signed by court Justice Sam Nuchia.

A three-judge panel found that the Harris County trial jury might have been prejudiced against Yates by the false testimony of a prosecution expert.

Park Dietz testified he consulted on an episode of the NBC show "Law and Order" about a woman with postpartum depression acquitted by reason of insanity in the drowning of her children. It was later revealed that no such program existed.

The Houston mother was serving a life sentence for the 2001 drownings of three of her five children. All five children were drowned in a bathtub at the family's home.

www.dallasnews.com

NewMom2003
01-06-2005, 10:45 AM
This is wonderful news. If Andrea Yates doesn't qualify as being criminally insane, they need to throw that defense out the window. Hopefully, she'll be sent to a psychiatric hospital for life. Prison for her was NOT right!!!

I couldn't agree more! This is great news, imo, she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital, not prison. I remember having this overwhelming feeling of sadness when she was convicted and I'm happy that the conviction has been overturned.

Yes, what she did was horrible and unspeakable, but the woman was sick for years and needed help badly. It's always been my opinion that her husband, Rusty Yates, should be the one in prison. He knew for years that his wife was sick and it got worse with each pregnancy. He never got her the help she needed (imo).

And and I agree with you Cass. This case isn't like the Susan Smith case at all. SS knew exactly what she was doing to her children and I hope she rots in jail for the rest of her miserable life. :furious:

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:45 AM
I never saw a more insane person in my entire life! She deserves a new trial.


I wish they'd put Ol' Rusty Yates on trial with her this time :banghead:
The man found her in a bathroom with a knife to her neck then gets her pregnant a couple of more times :mad:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:47 AM
There are threads about this in both the JURY room and the parking lot.

izzyB
01-06-2005, 10:47 AM
i know she did a horrible thing, but i too believe she was completely insane at the time. she has been hospitalized recently (within the last 3 months or so) due to her mental health, and her husband has divorced her. i hope she can finally be removed from jail and admitted full time to a hospital to get the help this poor woman needs.

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:54 AM
Appeals court overturns the murder conviction against Andrea Yates


AP report:

By The Associated Press

(01/06/05 - HOUSTON) A state appeals court has overturned the capital murder convictions against Andrea Yates and ordered a new trial in the drownings of her children.

The Texas First Court of Appeals issued its ruling in Houston today in a 12-page opinion signed by court Justice Sam Nuchia.

A three-judge panel found that the Harris County trial jury might have been prejudiced against Yates by the false testimony of a prosecution expert.

Park Dietz testified he consulted on an episode of the N-B-C T-V show "Law and Order" about a woman with postpartum depression acquitted by reason of insanity in the drowning of her children. It was later revealed that no such program existed.

The Houston mother was serving a life sentence for the 2001 drownings of three of her five children. All five children were drowned in a bathtub at the family's home.

kk's mom
01-06-2005, 10:54 AM
I don't know where to post this. I just read that Andrea Yates murder conviction was overturned. She's getting out?????????????????

Love_Mama
01-06-2005, 10:56 AM
YIPPIE!

I couldn't be happier. Whatever happen's.........she'll probably be put in a Mental Unit........somewhere. IT's about time! That poor woman.

Here's FOX news on it. You don't have to subscribe!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143508,00.html

And here's the background.......story. The Case
http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxooooooooooooo
mama

Rachael
01-06-2005, 10:57 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:


I agree. Susan Smith did it for completely selfish reasons. Andrea has major psychological problems and should be in an hospital for a long time.

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 10:58 AM
I agree about Rusty. Remember some of the details of their lives before the killings? They lived in a SCHOOL BUS for a while! And he insisted they she home school all of the kids. The stress on that woman, who was so obviously very, very sick, must have been horrible. (Homeschooling is fine with me, but the person doing it has to really WANT to do it.) She will never get her children back and will live in agony for the rest of her life. She should at least get the medical help she needs in an appropriate setting instead of being in prison.

lisag
01-06-2005, 10:59 AM
I agree about her husband too - how can he, knowing that she is sick, leave the chidlren in her care all alone ?? She should have been helped a long time ago.

tuppence
01-06-2005, 11:02 AM
I agree. Susan Smith did it for completely selfish reasons. Andrea has major psychological problems and should be in an hospital for a long time.


completely agree. I thought she was a poster case for the insanity plea and needing to be locked up in a hospital not a jail.

Rachael
01-06-2005, 11:04 AM
I agree about her husband too - how can he, knowing that she is sick, leave the chidlren in her care all alone ?? She should have been helped a long time ago.


His mother came to the house every morning. Andrea only had the kids alone for like 1/2 hour in the morning. Rusty's mother was staying in a hotel I believe (she lives in a different state possibly FL or NC) to help Andrea with the children until she got better. I am not saying Rusty is a great guy. He definetly wore the pants in the relationship. I read the book. Andrea was getting help. She was even in the hospital a few times. I don't think anyone realized the severity of her illness or her own family would have been there helping her too.

lcookster
01-06-2005, 11:05 AM
I hated what she did but I always believed she was desperately mentally ill. Her severe post partum depression was not new news, as she had suffered mightily after previous births. I blame her husband, quite frankly. I think he and the family ignored the severity of her situation. I believe she had a major psychotic break. I don't believe she will ever be able to live in society again.

Rachael
01-06-2005, 11:06 AM
I hated what she did but I always believed she was desperately mentally ill. Her severe post partum depression was not new news, as she had suffered mightily after previous births. I blame her husband, quite frankly. I think he and the family ignored the severity of her situation. I believe she had a major psychotic break. I don't believe she will ever be able to live in society again.


I also do not believe she will ever be able to live in society again. I am sure she is suicidal.

cecilia
01-06-2005, 11:08 AM
I hope she has lots of friends and family and therapists who can keep her free of another Rusty - one more example of narcissist - "can you do what I say without question?" - terrifying.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:08 AM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:12 AM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:16 AM
I don't know where to post this. I just read that Andrea Yates murder conviction was overturned. She's getting out?????????????????

I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

TexMex
01-06-2005, 11:19 AM
She was never tried for the killings of two of the kids.
The convictions were for drowning three of them.


HOUSTON (AP) - Andrea Yates' capital murder convictions for drowning her children were overturned Thursday by an appeals court, which ruled a prosecution expert witness gave false testimony at her trial.

Yates' lawyers had argued at a hearing last month before a three-judge panel of the First Court of Appeals in Houston that psychiatrist Park Dietz was wrong when he said he consulted on an episode of the TV show "Law and Order" involving a woman found innocent by reason of insanity for drowning her children.

After jurors found Yates guilty, attorneys in the case and jurors learned no such episode existed.

"We conclude that there is a reasonable likelihood that Dr. Dietz's false testimony could have affected the judgment of the jury," the court ruled. "We further conclude that Dr. Dietz's false testimony affected the substantial rights of appellant."

Jurors in 2002 sentenced Yates to life in prison in the 2001 deaths of three of her children. She was not tried in the deaths of the other two.

peggy
01-06-2005, 11:20 AM
Matt (Today program) just spoke with her mother and defense attorney--mom said she last spoke with Andrea three weeks ago and she is "much better." Apparently she was transferred to another facility few months ago and put on different medications and no longer on suicidal watch. When Matt asked mom if Andrea was a "changed person", she responded that she felt remorse but was "at peace." Defense attorney said he was surprised but not shocked about decision, but something about testimony from expert witness was shown to be not accurate and without same testimony at new trial, prosecution has weaker case.

Love_Mama
01-06-2005, 11:21 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I could not agee with you more Cass.......you're absolutely right.

His the story............read it again all of you!

http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxooooooo
mama

cynder
01-06-2005, 11:21 AM
Since Andrea was convicted there have been at least 3 mothers in Texas who killed their children (all suffering post partum depression) found not guilty by reason of insanity and none of them had the documented long-term history of severe mental illness that Andrea did. This was not justice - more like a lynch mob. Andrea is so sick that she borders on catatonic without meds. Her husband Rusty "we'll have as many children as God gives us" Yates is the one who belongs in prison, not Andrea. Despite worsening depression wih each child and the advice of Drs he continued to insist Andrea have more babies - and be responsible for the care and education of all the children without help.
Andrea is a very sick woman who needs lifetime care in an appropriate institution - not prison.
And yes husband Rusty is in the process of divorcing her because he wishes to move on and remarry and have more children. Since he is free to do whatever he wants hopefully he will choose a spouse who does not suffer from depression this time because it is apparent he plans to father another large family.
Andrea deserves a 2nd chance at proper justice - She deserves to pay for what she did and she should be confined for life but I don't feel she belongs in prison.

Angie
01-06-2005, 11:33 AM
I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

I disagree, but that's my opinion....

poco
01-06-2005, 11:38 AM
I am not sure how I feel about this... She was obviously sick, but.... I dunno... All I can think of is those poor babies and how scared they must have been.

I'm with ya there Lisa....... What those poor children must have been thinking. Bless their poor little hearts!!!

I really don't care what they do with her as long as she is locked away forever.

The only thing I can think of is there were signs before all of this happened - what went wrong? I tend to blame the husband to a degree.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:45 AM
I tend to blame the husband to a degree.

I blame the husband too, but she was the one who planned and actually carried out the methodical and brutal murders.

I will say it again. Just because someone suffers from mental disease does not mean they do not know right from wrong.

Insanity is a fact question -- that's the kind our system lets a jury resolve . . . and her jury resolved it.

A second one will as well.

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 12:19 PM
I followed this case as well. It was such a horrible thing to do. She apparently knew what she had done for she called the police and confessed to the killings. This is one case where I didn't think the death peanalty was deserved. I think she should have been locked away in a mental hospital.

I also don't understand why she was only convicted for 3 counts of murder when she actually murdered all 5 of her children.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 12:23 PM
In the first place, the conviction was overturned because of a problem with one of the expert witnesses. Not because the appellate court thinks she's mentally ill. Secondly, she is NOT going to be released from prision. She's still a danger to herself and others. They will most likely retry her, but she'll spend the time either in a jail/prison of some sort or a mental hospital. Since she had a clear and long history of mental issues, its my wish that the prosecutor will agree to having her committed to a mental institution for the remainder of her life. While she may not be suicidal at this moment due to the medication she's on, she has, at least three times in prison already, either talked about suicide or tried it.

As another poster said, since Yates' trial, at least three mothers who murdered their children have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two of these women had absolutely NO history of mental illness whatsoever. If Yates doesn't fit the definition of mentally insane, its worthless in my opinion. I don't believe she should ever be free to walk amongst us, but neither should she be in prison either.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 12:24 PM
I also don't understand why she was only convicted for 3 counts of murder when she actually murdered all 5 of her children.''

Doll, its not uncommon for the prosecution seeking the death penalty to leave an "out." Had she been acquitted of the first three murders, they would have another chance by trying her for the other two murders. She was eligible for capital punishment both times.

raisincharlie
01-06-2005, 12:55 PM
I wish they'd put Ol' Rusty Yates on trial with her this time :banghead:
The man found her in a bathroom with a knife to her neck then gets her pregnant a couple of more times :mad:
Absolutely ! It should have happened the first time around.

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 01:12 PM
''

Doll, its not uncommon for the prosecution seeking the death penalty to leave an "out." Had she been acquitted of the first three murders, they would have another chance by trying her for the other two murders. She was eligible for capital punishment both times.
Thanks for clearning this up for me, Jeana ;)

kato
01-06-2005, 01:13 PM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.


Sleuth:

Don't know if you read my post but I totally agree.

kk's mom
01-06-2005, 02:13 PM
I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.

kato
01-06-2005, 02:22 PM
Another point to add that she knew what she was doing was wrong.

Besides calling 911 she also called Rusty at work and told him he needed to come home now. He asked was something wrong with the kids and she said yes.

Gabby
01-06-2005, 02:33 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill. She suffered severe depression after the birth of each child, and Rusty kept right on getting her pregnant...he is MORE to blame for those children dying than Andrea...she was ILL regardless of the fact she planned and carried out the murders...she wasn't thinking rationally...no one who hasn't experienced depression has no way of judging how damaging the effects of it are. She was 'hearing voices' -- she was unable to reason the difference between truth and fantasy... She deserves to be where she can get help not in prison...I followed this case when it happened, and always thought there was a miscarriage of justice in her case. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 02:43 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

Mrs Jones
01-06-2005, 04:13 PM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I'm listening right now Cass. That is the intention, to get her released to a mental facility. It really sucks to be Andrea. Now don't get me started on Susan Smith. My in-laws live not to far from Union, and her ex-husband works in the town they live in. People mostly mind their own business about it and let him live his life the best he can. I hope she dies in prison and burns in hell. No, I think that she should be buried in a car that is driven into the dark, murky, muddy waters, and left there forever. I would love to meet her slutty little southern ass face to face.

Bhodirasta
01-06-2005, 04:26 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

I COMPLETELY agree with everything you just said. All of it. Especially the nip and tuck... LOLLL

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 04:30 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

Weeeee Hooooo ! Couldn't have said it better, myself !

Great post, luthersmama ! I totally agree !

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 04:35 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill.
"They" say that your eyes are the windows to your soul.. She looked very ill. Her hair as well..

I think she wanted to kill her children before she actually did. I read this somewhere, and then she finally succeeded. The doctors had told them to stop having more kids so there was a problem here and this is why I also think her husband should take some of this blame..

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 04:41 PM
I think Rusty is culpible too, Paperdoll. Unfortunately, there's no statues in the law, as yet, that make fathers responsible for allowing his mentaly ill wife to have the complete control of his children. That only happens once he's divorced her and wants out of the child support.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 05:02 PM
Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.


The jury was instructed by the judge before they received the case for deliberations that no such episode from Law and Order existed.

She was not convicted on perjured testimony since the jury was made aware of the error.

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 05:09 PM
The jury was instructed by the judge before they received the case for deliberations that no such episode from Law and Order existed.

She was not convicted on perjured testimony since the jury was made aware of the error.


As the saying goes, "You can't un-ring the bell". There is no excuse for a prosecution witness to lie, especially in a death penalty case. Mistakes might be forgiveable, but not an out-and-out lie. It casts doubt on his entire opinion. He should be spanked. :slap:

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 05:27 PM
As the saying goes, "You can't un-ring the bell". There is no excuse for a prosecution witness to lie, especially in a death penalty case. Mistakes might be forgiveable, but not an out-and-out lie. It casts doubt on his entire opinion. He should be spanked. :slap:

I find that I am incorrect. The jury was not informed that the episode didn't exist until the penalty phase. I still agree with the prosecution that the "mistake", as Doctor Dietz calls it (this testimony was elicited by the defense, not the the prosecution!), was not material to the case and there was plenty of other evidence that Yates planned to kill her children.

The jury found her legally sane at the time of her actions. I have no doubt that she was. She knew what she was doing and she deserves to rot in prison.

I also have no doubt that if it gets that far, another jury will convict her again.

But the full 12 panel appeals court still has to hear this case.

Olivia77
01-06-2005, 05:45 PM
Matt (Today program) just spoke with her mother and defense attorney--mom said she last spoke with Andrea three weeks ago and she is "much better." Apparently she was transferred to another facility few months ago and put on different medications and no longer on suicidal watch. When Matt asked mom if Andrea was a "changed person", she responded that she felt remorse but was "at peace." Defense attorney said he was surprised but not shocked about decision, but something about testimony from expert witness was shown to be not accurate and without same testimony at new trial, prosecution has weaker case.
They say "remorseful", which shows at least a current consciousness of guilt, and above all, she's at peace? That's disgusting. :sick:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 05:47 PM
THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT YATES AND THE DEATH PENALTY. AFTER THAT, I’VE POSTED INFORMATION ABOUT TWO WOMEN AND ONE MAN WHO MURDERED THEIR CHILDREN AND WERE FOUND NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY. I CANNOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE WOMEN AND ANDREA YATES. (Sorry for the all caps, but I was trying to differentiate my post from the material copied and pasted)!!!
I. Misconceptions muddle insanity defense debate, law lecturer says
The debate over the insanity defense in the United States is clouded by public misconceptions -- about mental illness itself, and about what happens to defendants acquitted by reason of insanity, according to attorney and University of Texas professor Jennifer S. Bard.
"Jurors tend to imagine that such defendants will simply walk away" -- which is understandable, given that juries in many states are not told what will happen to people acquitted by reason of insanity, Bard said during an Oct. 17 lecture at Pitt's law school.
In fact, "the actual statistics show that defendants who were found not guilty by reason of insanity actually spent more time confined to institutions than people who were convicted of crimes and served sentences," she said.
Bard, an assistant professor and research director at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas, delivered the third Mark A. Nordenberg Lecture in Law and Psychiatry. The law school and the Center for Bioethics and Health Law presented the lecture.
Bard cited three other common myths about the insanity defense:
* Such defenses are common. Fact: A "big body of research" shows that the insanity defense is raised in just 5-14 percent of homicide cases, she said.
* Insanity defense criteria are so complicated that defense attorneys easily can fool juries into acquitting clients. "Actually, there is some really interesting research showing that the vast majority of successful insanity defenses come in bench trials. It's primarily judges who are most sympathetic to insanity defenses," Bard pointed out.
* The insanity defense usually is used in murder trials. Fact: Murder cases account for fewer than one-third of insanity defenses, Bard said. More often, Bard said, the insanity defense figures into trials for minor offenses such as shoplifting and assaulting a police officer -- unfortunate but predictable occurrences when mentally ill offenders are repeatedly convicted and released, rather than being treated for the root causes of their anti-social behavior, argued Bard.
* * *

Ironically, she noted, prison inmates are the only Americans who enjoy a Constitutional right (under the Eighth Amendment forbidding cruel and unusual punishment) to health care -- not that mentally ill prisoners necessarily receive appropriate care, Bard said.
The key question in the insanity defense controversy, according to Bard, is this: Do Americans believe that individuals can be so mentally ill that they are not responsible for their actions?
Her answer: Not entirely, and certainly not in Texas.
Bard recounted the case of Andrea Yates, the Texas woman convicted of murder (but spared the death penalty) last March for drowning her five children.
Yates "was suffering from schizophrenia and depression well before she had any children. Having children just exacerbated a bad situation," Bard said.
Two weeks before the killings, Yates's husband Rusty desperately sought treatment for his wife. Recognizing Andrea's symptoms of severe postpartum depression from previous pregnancies, he pleaded unsuccessfully with Andrea's doctors to put her back on anti-depressants following the birth of their fifth child.
On the day that she drowned her children one by one in a bathtub, Andrea Yates was not taking any medications, nor had she been prescribed any since her previous bouts with depression and schizophrenia.
* * *
"Research has shown that once you get a panel of jurors qualified as death penalty jurors -- that is, jurors who say they would be willing to consider the death penalty -- you automatically have a group of jurors who are highly suspicious of the insanity defense," said Bard.
For Yates's attorneys to mount a successful insanity defense under Texas's strict "knowledge-based" criteria, they had to convince the jury either that Yates did not know what she was doing when she killed her children, or that she didn't know that it was wrong. "Irresistible impulse" because of mental illness is not an accepted defense in Texas and many other states.
* * *
Bard argued: "I think it would be an important change to the insanity defense for there to be an acknowledgement that it is possible to have knowledge but not to be able to do anything about it. And that it is possible, just as it is possible to have degrees of kidney disease or heart disease, to have degrees of mental illness that affect the thought process and [that] should be taken into consideration while assessing criminal responsibility."
* * *
But a majority of states, including Pennsylvania, have replaced the strict "knowledge-based" criteria for insanity defenses with the hybrid standard of "guilty but mentally ill."
"This standard is very satisfactory to jurors because it acknowledges that a person committed a crime, but it also recognizes that they were mentally ill when they did it," Bard said.
However, the standard defies logic, according to Bard. "If we believe as a society that there are people who, because of mental illness, are not responsible for their actions, then it doesn't make sense to create a category of people who are mentally ill but are responsible for their actions anyway," she said.
* * *
-- Bruce Steele
http://www.pitt.edu/utimes/issues/35/021024/10.html

Woman not guilty by reason of insanity in drowning deaths of kids
Lisa Ann Diaz, 33, charged with capital murder, had pleaded innocent by reason of insanity in the deaths of daughters Kamryn, 3, and Briana, 5, in the family's home last September. She faced a mandatory life prison sentence if convicted.
The jury deliberated seven hours over two days before returning a verdict.
Lisa Ann Diaz's husband told jurors that she would never have harmed her children out of spite -- the argument submitted by prosecutors.
"If Lisa had been in her right mind," Angel Diaz testified, "this would never have happened."
Angel Diaz called police minutes after coming home from work to find the two girls naked on a bed in his three-bedroom house. He testified that he found his wife in the garage "rather pale, and a glazed look on her face."
He told authorities his wife said "something bad happened to the kids" and that she "didn't want them to suffer."
Diaz said his wife's list of physical problems grew dramatically after a flu shot in 2002, including fears of having a thyroid condition, ringworm, diabetes, lupus and tuberculosis. Defense attorney Darlina Crowder documented 180 doctor visits by the woman to her physician and specialists over five years.
Diaz said he eventually became fed up when his wife's health fears spread to belief that her daughters were experiencing the same troubles.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/state/081204_APstate_drowningdeaths.html

Mom who said she killed on God's orders acquitted
Jury rules she was insane when she bludgeoned her 3 children
(CNN) -- A jury acquitted a Texas mother of killing two of her sons and seriously injuring the third after determining she was insane at the time.
As the verdicts were read, Deanna Laney's face quivered, but the 39-year-old shed no tears.
Laney would have received an automatic life sentence had she been convicted of capital murder.
Instead, she will immediately be taken for evaluation to a maximum security state psychiatric hospital, where she could stay as long as 40 years.
Laney admitted bashing her three children in the heads with rocks. She said God told her to do so.
Laney was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of 8-year-old Joshua and 6-year-old Luke, and a single count of injury to a child for 15-month old Aaron, who survived the attacks on Mother's Day 2003.
Prosecutor Matt Bingham has said Aaron's vision is impaired and he will never be able to live on his own.
Bingham chose not to seek the death penalty in the case.
"I don't think anybody in this room or anybody in that courtroom wasn't touched by the evidence in this case," the Smith County district attorney told reporters after the verdicts.
"For the rest of my life I'll remember Aaron, I'll remember Joshua, I'll remember Luke. I'll never forget what happened to them that day," he said.
"We have believed as strongly as we could believe that our client was insane at the time of the events," Files said.
Files said in court that Laney believed God had told her the world was going to end and "she had to get her house in order," which included killing her children.
"The dilemma she faced is a terrible one for a mother," Files told the jury. "Does she follow what she believes to be God's will, or does she turn her back on God?"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/children.slain/

Texas woman finds son, 5, dead in oven

BEAUMONT, Texas (AP) — The body of a 5-year-old boy was found in an oven at his home Friday, and his mother's boyfriend was charged with capital murder. The suspect, Kenneth Pierott, 27, previously had been found not guilty by reason of insanity in the 1996 slaying of his handicapped sister.
Pierott was arraigned and jailed Friday night in the death of Tre-Deven Odoms.
The child's mother, Kathy Jo Odoms, found her son's body in the oven Friday morning, Justice of the Peace Paul Brown said. The burners on the stovetop were turned on, the oven was not, he said.
The boy had no visible injuries, Brown said. Autopsy results were expected Monday.
Odoms told police she woke up Friday morning because she was hot and smelled gas, The Beaumont Enterprise reported in its online edition Friday. She found the burners were on and turned them off. She discovered the boy's body after Pierott left the house.
Pierott spent six months in state mental hospitals beginning in 1998, after he was found not guilty by reason of insanity in the December 1996 beating death of his 25-year-old sister, who had cerebral palsy.
Court documents obtained by the Enterprise show Pierott hit his sister in the head with a metal dumbbell. He was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1119302/posts

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 05:49 PM
The jury found her legally sane at the time of her actions. I have no doubt that she was. She knew what she was doing
I agree with this. She killed her kids one by one. I do believe that she is mentally ill and needs a lot of help, however, if she was that sick, why kill the kids and not the husband. Actually, she should have just ran away from it all on her own to try and get more help for herself, or she should have called someone when she had the urge to kill her kids to help stop her from doing so. From what I've read she tried to kill them another time but didn't.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 06:24 PM
I agree with this. She killed her kids one by one. I do believe that she is mentally ill and needs a lot of help, however, if she was that sick, why kill the kids and not the husband. Actually, she should have just ran away from it all on her own to try and get more help for herself, or she should have called someone when she had the urge to kill her kids to help stop her from doing so. From what I've read she tried to kill them another time but didn't.


I wish she would have just done herself in. However, you're asking about a lot of "why nots" and that just doesn't work when you're dealing with someone whose mentally ill. She felt she was a bad parent. She felt that her children basically didn't stand a chance of becoming good people. She felt that they only way they were guaranteed to enter Heaven is if she killed them before they sinned. Of course to you and I, that sounds wacked. However, to her sick mind, it made sense.

My problem is with the wording of the law itself. In that long post above, it talks about other jurisdictions allowing defendants to claim "guilty by reason of insanity." Other states allow defendants' doctors to prove that the mental illness was the SOLE reason for the defendant's actions and is, thereby, guilty by reason of insanity.

Another problem is that most people don't know, and the state isn't allowed to tell juries, that the defendant doesn't get to walk amongst the population. That being in the institution with a bunch of other mentally ill individuals is far worse than prison ever could be. They can't know that a judge will request dozens of tests to be conducted of the "inmate/patient" before even the smallest amounts of freedom are given.

The bottom line is that we ALL agree that Andrea Yates is and was mentally ill and if not for that, she never would have murdered the children. I'm all for locking her up, but it should be in a hospital where she can receive the medications and therapy she needs. After all, when she does take her medication and remembers what she's done, she is so remorseful that she wants to kill herself. How can we possibly punish her more than that????

Let's face it, not all mentally ill people were born that way. Sometimes they suffer from breakdowns. It could happen to any one of us here. I would think you'd like for your friends and family members to be given a little bit of consideration should the worst happen to them and they become mentally ill.

Pepper
01-06-2005, 06:34 PM
I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.I agree with you. She should never set foot outside a hospital or prison again. Even if she is *sick*, she is dangerous, and should never have the right to be free.

Furthermore both her and that worthless piece of crap husband of hers should be sterilized so that neither of them is responsible for bringing another helpless child into this world. They had their chance at parenting, and they FAILED! Let's not give them another chance!

ETA: I have no problem with her being in a mental institution for the rest of her days, but the problem with the insanity defense is (from my understanding) that if a panel of doctors decides that she is *cured* then she may be released. That should never happen, and if we can be guaranteed that it will never happen, then a hospital is OK with me. If there's even a slight change she will be given her freedom someday, then leave her in prison.

Bhodirasta
01-06-2005, 06:44 PM
Jeana,
THANKS for that interesting post! Facinating...
I did know this...

In fact, "the actual statistics show that defendants who were found not guilty by reason of insanity actually spent more time confined to institutions than people who were convicted of crimes and served sentences," she said.
Bard, an assistant professor and research director at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas, delivered the third Mark A. Nordenberg Lecture in Law and Psychiatry. The law school and the Center for Bioethics and Health Law presented the lecture.

I wish more people would realize this...

But I never thought about this...

"Research has shown that once you get a panel of jurors qualified as death penalty jurors -- that is, jurors who say they would be willing to consider the death penalty -- you automatically have a group of jurors who are highly suspicious of the insanity defense," said Bard.
For Yates's attorneys to mount a successful insanity defense under Texas's strict "knowledge-based" criteria, they had to convince the jury either that Yates did not know what she was doing when she killed her children, or that she didn't know that it was wrong. "Irresistible impulse" because of mental illness is not an accepted defense in Texas and many other states.


Now this is just obvious now that I think about it. Sad I think. I think it goes to show just how flawed the system can be when it comes to the DP and insanity.

An irresistable impulse can't be used?? What in the sam hill would you call what Andrea Yates did??

I also agree Jeana, that mental illness is a strange and confusing and under understood (is that gramatically legal?). We have much to learn about mental illness, and we won't gain any knowledge on the subject if the people that are suffering from this type of disease, are locked away in prison...

NewMom2003
01-06-2005, 06:51 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill. She suffered severe depression after the birth of each child, and Rusty kept right on getting her pregnant...he is MORE to blame for those children dying than Andrea...she was ILL regardless of the fact she planned and carried out the murders...she wasn't thinking rationally...no one who hasn't experienced depression has no way of judging how damaging the effects of it are. She was 'hearing voices' -- she was unable to reason the difference between truth and fantasy... She deserves to be where she can get help not in prison...I followed this case when it happened, and always thought there was a miscarriage of justice in her case. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....

:clap: I totally agree Gabby.

Pepper
01-06-2005, 07:01 PM
............. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....Someone should FIX both of them! They should not be allowed to breed again, EVER! Even if Andrea spends the rest of her days in some institution, there is no guarantee that she won't become pregnant again. Happens frequently in women's prisons and mental hospitals. She and Rusty both had one chance at parenting, and they miserably failed. Neither of them should have another chance to propogate their disgusting genes.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 07:04 PM
Someone should FIX both of them! They should not be allowed to breed again, EVER! Even if Andrea spends the rest of her days in some institution, there is no guarantee that she won't become pregnant again. Happens frequently in women's prisons and mental hospitals. She and Rusty both had one chance at parenting, and they miserably failed. Neither of them should have another chance to propogate their disgusting genes.


Even if the virtually impossible happens and Yates gets preggers again, I seriously doubt that they'll allow her to raise the child in prison or in a mental hospital. We're all outraged at the murder of her five children, but let's be realistic here.

Rusty, on the other hand, should be taken out back and shot. ;)

Pepper
01-06-2005, 07:45 PM
Even if the virtually impossible happens and Yates gets preggers again, I seriously doubt that they'll allow her to raise the child in prison or in a mental hospital. We're all outraged at the murder of her five children, but let's be realistic here.

Rusty, on the other hand, should be taken out back and shot. ;)

What's not being realistic? I don't want her getting pregnant even if the child is taken away. People incarcerated should not be allowed to reproduce! I'd allow anesthesia for Andrea, but not for Rusty!! :eek:

cecilia
01-06-2005, 10:28 PM
I followed this case and read the books and came away with the sense that Andrea could never find a way to just say NO to Rusty -- about the bus or the pregnancies or anything else -- mix that with some "religion" and it seems like you have the ingredients for mental illness if not everything you need to make an existing mental illness worse.

Since she was aware of her actions and their consequences, I always felt that all her anger and resentment toward Rusty and her own frustration with herself for not speaking up led her to this huge awful act of revenge.

What a tragic way to make your point...

Candlelight
01-06-2005, 10:34 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that Andrea Yates, a former RN, at one time a smart and beautiful young woman, was insane by ALL legal definitions prior to, during, and after the murders of her sweet babies by drowning.

She will be retried- and if the state of Texas convicts this woman and puts her back in prison to rot, then ALL the WORLD needs to protest.

Justice was denied Andrea, and her stupid ass of a husband didn't ever help her, support her or get her the help she needed. He just impregnated her over and over, at times making her live in an old school bus while he was making close to $100,000 a year.

I hope so much that Rutsy will have NO part in her retrial as a witness or anything else. His disdain for her is obvious
I saw a clip of the man on TV this AM and he was laughing his fool head off about Andrea. He said " I asked her once if she got out of prison, what would she do?" and as he SNEERED, he said " She said she wanted a pizza and a BATH.
Yes, Rustywhoshouldbecastrated, we know that she drowned those sweet babies.
You don't have to remind us.

To the family and friends of Andrea ( this excludes Rusty by all definitions):
I hope your daughter, friend, cousin, neighbor, and our collective sister will be helped by a humane sentence which gives her the intensive psychiatric help she needs for the rest of her life. I am sure that she will never be returned to society because of the enormity of her crime, but I want her to have good medical care by people who understand the disease process of schizophrenia. I am very sad about the many children she bore and killed. If our mental health system worked like it was intended to do, then her mental problems would have been aggressively treated involuntarily if needed. And she would have been put on birth control or sterilized for the protection of unborn, now dead, babies.

Texana
01-06-2005, 10:36 PM
Thanks, Jeana, for summarizing the other recent casese in Texas where women who killed their children and presented the same defense and very similiar actions were acquitted due to insanity.

Note that Deana Laney showed NO signs of mental illness to her family--none that they could discern. They were members of a charismatic church that included many things in their beliefs that can also be signs of mental illness, but overall Deana Laney was functioning normally to the outward eye. She had even invited her in-laws over for dinner the next day.

Andrea, on the other hand, was clearly mentally ill. She had been in and out of mental health facilities and had been on some powerful anti-psychotic meds. She wasn't even bathing or really feeding herself. Her in-laws were well aware as was anyone with any contact to the family--not that many people because Rusty kept them fairly isolated. In fact, one of Andrea's former nursing colleagues begged Rusty shortly before the horrible event to get help for Andrea.

We don't expect people with raging fevers such as, a patient with meningitis, to "get help" for themselves. But to expect people whose thinking is clearly disordered, and who in Andrea's case, are not even caring adequately for themselves, to "get help" for themselves? They can't think straight! They are mentally ill--and that means rational thought is gone. Period.

I don't think Andrea ever needs to be released from any facility, and Rusty should have been brought up on accessory charges, if she was guilty, so was he--at least of child endangerment.

He's probably hoping this won't affect the divorce papers he just filed.

And Dietz, whose testimony was the reason the verdict was overturned, is an idiot. He justified testifying that Yates was sane but Laney was insane, because Laney heard voices from "God," and Yates heard directions from "Satan," and therefore Yates should have known that the voices SHE heard were wrong. What the hell kind of crazy thinking is that? An person who hears voices is supposed to retain enough judgement to figure out which voice is the "good" one?

If anything, Laney was much more devious and "rational" than Yates. Her husband woke up as she was beating the toddler son with the rock. He heard the baby cry out, but Laney responded that everything was fine. She called 911, too. But she was acquitted by reason of insanity. Laney was also tried in a much smaller venue, with a jury pool more familiar with her, her family, church, etc. Yates was tried in Harris County with a huge geographical size--her jurors probably went near Yates' home area only as a drive-through on I-45 freeway, going to Galveston Beach.

Andrea should never be released from a secure facility, but she was insane. Overturning the verdict was the right thing to do.

Texana
01-06-2005, 10:38 PM
Candlelight:

Amen! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Jack
01-06-2005, 11:00 PM
I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.


That's the worst part for me too. All of the children suffered, but the one who ran knowing he was going to die if his mother caught him just breaks my heart. I don't believe she was so out of it that she didn't know her actions were wrong. I think she belongs in prison, and if she is as sick as some think she is then it wont matter to her where she is. Problem is now there is a very good chance she will join us out here in society, free to do as she pleases. She could be having babies in a few years.

cajun
01-07-2005, 12:27 AM
I couldn't agree more! This is great news, imo, she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital, not prison. I remember having this overwhelming feeling of sadness when she was convicted and I'm happy that the conviction has been overturned.

Yes, what she did was horrible and unspeakable, but the woman was sick for years and needed help badly. It's always been my opinion that her husband, Rusty Yates, should be the one in prison. He knew for years that his wife was sick and it got worse with each pregnancy. He never got her the help she needed (imo).

And and I agree with you Cass. This case isn't like the Susan Smith case at all. SS knew exactly what she was doing to her children and I hope she rots in jail for the rest of her miserable life. :furious:
I so totally agree with you. Why would the woman in Dallas that bludgeoned(sp) her boys to death be found not guilty by reason of insanity and Yates not when it was obvious for years Andrea was mentally ill and spiraling downward. Rusty did deserve to be charged as an accessory.

Texana
01-07-2005, 12:42 AM
We were on vacation when this happened and I didn't sleep for two days. It was sickening. The details about how those children is so awful--However, unlike Diane Downs or many other women who kill their own children, the Yates children were not abused or neglected when Andrea was on medication and functioning well. If you compare Andrea medicated and Andrea NOT medicated, you can see that this was the action of a deranged woman. She deserves to be cared for and protected and society needs to be protected from her.

Yates knew what she was doing was legally wrong, but she was convinced she was morally right. She knew she was mentally ill and severely depressed and not doing a good job raising her children, so in her warped mind, she began to believe the "voices" that her children were doomed to hell unless she sent them right then to heaven. How could she let them live here knowing they would suffer in hell forever? Such is the thinking of a deranged mind.

Don't get me wrong, I get physically ill when I think of how those children died. I don't want Andrea Yates to be released. I think people with this degree of mental illness need to be kept within facilities, because they do have violent tendencies, and we can't run the risk of them not being medicated.

The worst thing about the death of the Yates children is that they could have been prevented.

That is the truly sickening thing. Every warning sign was there and nothing worked. And those children didn't have to die.

smellsarat
01-07-2005, 02:16 AM
Haven't read the whole thread..too long...I too think she was so terribly mentally ill...thanks to the moron she was married too who kept poring the stress on...more and more kids...Anyway Catherine Crier today agrees and thinks the courts need to address this issue of insanity over again in all cases and I agree!!! But one thing she said that I hadn't heard before...the doctor who examined her said she was the absolute most psychotic patient he had ever seen!!! She still needs to be hospitalized and even if years later she got well and was released it scares me to think she would end up back with that jackass of a husband.......he would drive her right back to the funny farm!!! He is the most self-absorbed stupid idiot I have ever seen. I know many people do not understand mental illness but he takes the cake!!! On the surface he appears compassionate ..yada yadad...but he leaves her to care for them and then adds more to the burder...I'll tell you something , I had severe postpartum after my sons' birth and having a schizophrenic sister scared the crap outta me....I never had more children because I feared another pregnancy would land me in the hospital or worse........That Randy Yates makes me MAD...:furious: I always thought they shoulda charged him with criminal negligence!!

smellsarat
01-07-2005, 02:18 AM
By the way ..no link just memory jogging...remember reading years ago of a woman hospitalized after drowning her two kids..after many years of treatment was out remarried had kids and did it again.......Not to scare anyway but you just never know!!!:hand:

Candlelight
01-07-2005, 02:31 AM
Thank you so very much. :)\
I really appreciate you reading my post. She has always struck a chord with me because her illness was SO visible.. even in the face of her heinous crimes.
God bless all.
CL



Candlelight:

Amen! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 05:33 AM
I've posted this question both here and on the Andrea Yates thread in the Jury Room.

Isn't there something we can do for this poor woman? I don't think the state should even be persuing prison for her ~ help, yes ~ prison, no.

I didn't follow the trial ~ but I just read that the jury deliberated 3 1/2 hours only before they returned the verdict??? And that Dr. Diptz-shitz who testified that Andrea watched a television program that never aired???

I just don't see how this woman could have been judged competant to stand trial. And why wasn't Rusty tried for willful negligance ???

Simply funding a new defense for this poor woman just doesn't seem to be enough ~ isn't there more that can be done for her?

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:01 AM
I could not agee with you more Cass.......you're absolutely right.

His the story............read it again all of you!

http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxooooooo
mama
I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:13 AM
In the first place, the conviction was overturned because of a problem with one of the expert witnesses. Not because the appellate court thinks she's mentally ill. Secondly, she is NOT going to be released from prision. She's still a danger to herself and others. They will most likely retry her, but she'll spend the time either in a jail/prison of some sort or a mental hospital. Since she had a clear and long history of mental issues, its my wish that the prosecutor will agree to having her committed to a mental institution for the remainder of her life. While she may not be suicidal at this moment due to the medication she's on, she has, at least three times in prison already, either talked about suicide or tried it.

As another poster said, since Yates' trial, at least three mothers who murdered their children have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two of these women had absolutely NO history of mental illness whatsoever. If Yates doesn't fit the definition of mentally insane, its worthless in my opinion. I don't believe she should ever be free to walk amongst us, but neither should she be in prison either.
Yeah, that post gave me some hope if there is a new trial. I agree that the prosecutor should agree to having her committed to a mental institution. I am happy to read though that she was working in the prison flower garden the FOX had a photo of her mother standing by a self portrait of Andrea drawn in prison ~ at least she drew herself smiling. I really do feel bad for Andrea and for her mother.

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:18 AM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.
Great post ~ thanks!

Love_Mama
01-07-2005, 09:52 AM
I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

KatzHome........just scroll down to where it say's BACKGROUND.

xxxxxxxxxooooo
mama

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:27 AM
What's not being realistic? I don't want her getting pregnant even if the child is taken away. People incarcerated should not be allowed to reproduce! I'd allow anesthesia for Andrea, but not for Rusty!! :eek:


In the first place, I seriously doubt that she's having sex either in prison or when she's in the hospital, and secondly, we're not in China! America doesn't sterilize people (even the ones who desperately need it).

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:36 AM
What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Excerpts from an article in today's Dallas Morning News:

Doctor knew testimony was flawed
Dietz's erroneous testimony led to verdict being overturned

Park Dietz For more than a quarter-century, psychiatrist Park Dietz has testified at the trials of notorious criminals.

The list includes Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski, serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer and would-be presidential assassin John Hinckley Jr.

Dr. Dietz, often the go-to guy for prosecutors, has himself been under the microscope for testimony he gave in the Andrea Yates trial.

His testimony described a similar crime in what turned out to be a non-existent episode of the television series Law & Order. That erroneous testimony led a Houston appeals court on Thursday to overturn the murder conviction of Mrs. Yates for drowning her children.

A receptionist at Dr. Dietz's office in Newport Beach, Calif., said Thursday that neither Dr. Dietz nor his firm had an immediate comment on the court's decision. And the judges noted in their opinion that Dr. Dietz "acknowledged that he had made an error in his testimony."

In a rare interview on the subject with The Dallas Morning News in April, Dr. Dietz discussed his testimony. He called it a mistake, adding that he offered to return to Houston at his own expense to correct it while the Yates trial was under way.

* * *

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010705dntexdeitz.3d9ed.html

kato
01-07-2005, 11:21 AM
What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 11:33 AM
I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.


Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

Pepper
01-07-2005, 11:46 AM
By the way ..no link just memory jogging...remember reading years ago of a woman hospitalized after drowning her two kids..after many years of treatment was out remarried had kids and did it again.......Not to scare anyway but you just never know!!!:hand:My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!

I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.

I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

I think of those poor children begging and fighting for their life, futilely, against their mother's overpowering strength, and the haunting words of the one who said something like, "Mommy, I'll be good, I promise. Don't hurt me."

kato
01-07-2005, 12:20 PM
Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

I agree about the flippant part. I guess I'm just a hard *ss when it comes to mental illness. Granted I don't have 5 kids and really nothing else in common with Andrea. But I do suffer from and have since my teens with major depression. I was in and out of hospitals since the age of 14. My real father put me in my 1st one when I was 9. I had problems. But who wouldn't have problems being shifted from foster home to foster home since the age of 4 and then one of your real parents wants you back and you go and it doesn't work out. I had major problems (couldn't keep a job cuz I couldn't leave the house on some days, suicide attempts, anorexia, bulimia, not able to maintain a healthy relationship) until I was 30. But I would never dream about or thought about hurting someone else. I finally realized that I did need help and checked myself in for the last time (hopefully) Granted, I do take medication and am very well now. I've had my same job for almost 8 years and have been with my BF for 9. But suffering from major clinical depression is a daily struggle that I will have to deal with my whole life. I'm not ashamed of myself because alot of people have problems. People who do not suffer from this do not understand. Depression is totally different from sadness. And Jeana I know you know the difference personally. I'm just trying to explain my reasoning to others.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is it is becoming quite trendy these days for people to commit crimes and blame it on mental illness.

SoloFlyer
01-07-2005, 12:39 PM
Obviously Andrea has mental issues but then again everyone does. Hers were certainly exacerbated by her "religion" and her lack of support. Honestly I believe that Rusty, her preacher friend and several of the Doctors that treated her need to be held accountable. It does not take a genius to figure out that a mentally unstable woman should NEVER be left alone with 5 children to care for 24/7. That is enough to make a sane person crazy, Never mind the living in a bus and home-schooling.

Andrea reached out for help several times, she knew that her thoughts were wrong. She had the composure and aforethought to drown the children in a methodical manner. It is unfortunate that she chose this way out but she chose it and deserves to pay the consequences.

I am all for mandatory sterilization of some people that have proven they are not fit to parent. Andrea and Rusty Yates are at the top of that list as well as any murderer, child molester, child abuser or those that just have another child each year just for the increase in welfare payments.

I once knew a man that bragged about having 18 children by 16 different women. He never had a job or paid any child support but he did manage to steal some diapers occaisionally. This man was a mere 26 years old at the time! He wanted to beat the world record for fathering children, that was his entire life's ambition. It took all I had not to reach down and cut off his family jewels as he spoke.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 01:22 PM
Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

kato
01-07-2005, 01:25 PM
Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

And thank you, Jeana. I like that we can post to each other and still understand where the other one is coming from.

cynder
01-07-2005, 02:04 PM
My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!
I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.
I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

If you do research - murderers who are found to be insane statistically spend MORE time in custody than those who are found guilty and receive sentences of less than death or life without parole. Most are so sick that they are never released and die in a state hospital while in custody. Andrea is not likely to be released EVER - nor is she likely to remarry or have more children. What is sad is that Rusty Yates is free to do both and probably will as soon as he can find a suitably controllable woman.
You cannot compare men and women in this specific instance - men do not suffer from post partum psychosis. Aside from that Andrea is/was not just depressed - she is/was also psychotic with some evidence of schizophrenia as well. Schizophrenic Hinckley is in a mental institution (not prison) so the insanity defense does not just apply to women. I understand severe depression but this went far beyond that into the realm of true psychosis. Andrea was catatonic for months at a time - unable to care for herself, much less 5 children - 2 of which were basically infants requiring full time care. For Rusty to assume she would miraculously "get better" makes him as guilty (and maybe more so, since he was not ill) as Andrea in the death of the children.
To say Andrea is guilty because she called 911 or "knew" what she did was wrong is to deny the whole nature of this type of psychosis. What IS mental illness if not being forced by your mind into behaviors deemed inappropriate by society? How can anyone look at that woman and say that she was capable of resisting the psychosis. And it wasn't as if she had not asked for help in her more rational moments - she must have felt by that point that there was no hope and no help - she had just recently been to see her Dr and had received no relief from the voices in her head or the compulsions that were taking over her every waking moment.
Andrea was literally forced to kill her children by an inner drive so compelling no sane person would understand. She felt she HAD to kill them to save them from Satan and her Sins in not raising them properly. While she did not WANT to kill them and fought against it, the voices and feelings conjured up in her psychosis convinced her that she HAD to kill them to save them. That is why she should be found "insane" - for even though she did not WANT to kill the children she did so anyway. She called 911 because in her mind she was deserving of punishment and even death for being unable to raise the childen properly and having to kill them to save them. Suicide by the state because she was unsuccessful in doing it herself (she had made several attempts). In her mind it was not wrong to save the children from Satan by killing them, but she herself was at fault by not raising them properly - if she had been a better mother they would not have needed saving. IE - it was her fault they died and therefore she was guilty. Very different from Susan Smith.
Andrea remains on a constant suicide watch on 4 different strong anti-psychotic medications. Despite these, she continues to slowly sink deeper into a world in her own mind. She will never be well enough to be released from the hospital and will likely die there. She belongs in a place where she can be properly cared for and looked after and at least be relieved of the worst of the self-injurious compulsions.
Remember - what we do as a society in the way we treat the least among us, we will eventually rationalize in the way we treat all of mankind. It is a very small step from condemning the mentally ill to condemning anyone who we see as inferior or different from us.

kato
01-07-2005, 02:12 PM
Cynder:

Not quoting your post cuz it's so long. But you make some very good points.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 02:50 PM
Good post Cynder!!!! Expecting someone whose mentally ill to "know" they're in trouble is past ridiculous.

luthersmama
01-07-2005, 04:24 PM
Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 04:55 PM
http://courttv.com/trials/yates/docs/overturn.html

Link to the decision.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.


OHMYGOD!!!

He slashed his pregnant wife to death, tore the fetus from her body and mutilated him, stabbed his six-year-old daughter in the eye and attacked his grandmother. Greist was found innocent by reason of insanity and has been in the state's largest mental hospital ever since.

wordsnmorewords
01-07-2005, 08:44 PM
http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?nid=19&sid=143078

Smart Case Witness
More trouble in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping case. An expert witness on the prosecution's list is the same man who's being blamed for overturning the conviction of Andrea Yates, the Texas mom accused of drowning her kids.


(Jan 7, 2005) --

Another twisting turn of events...

Mitty
01-08-2005, 05:49 AM
I don't know if anyone has posted this link or not, but http://www.yateskids.org is a site that is maintained by Rusty Yates. There are pictures of the kids, interesting stuff about the case, and there is a section called Media Reviews where Rusty talks about a book written by Suzanne O'Malley. (Are You There Alone?: The Unspeakable Crime of Andrea Yates). The link to the media review page is http://www.yateskids.org/media_reviews.php. On this page Rusty gives some factual corrections to things that are incorrect in the book, and I guess the other info there is his opinion. Interesting to read - made me want to go out and buy the book. Also, on this page, http://www.yateskids.org/artifacts.php, you can read Andrea's medical records. My opinion is that Andrea should be in a mental hospital for some lengthy treatment. I don't believe Rusty should be held responsible for what she did, but I do believe he should have to answer for a lot of things. You would expect a husband to notice the heavy load Andrea was under, and to do a lot more in relieving some of that load. We can't really know how much he did or didn't do, but I think continuing to have babies, knowing that she worsened with each pregnancy, was not the best thing. I do feel sorry for him - we can't expect that he should have known this would happen, and he must be in a great deal of pain over the loss of the children, and is probably sickened by the fact that his children might still be alive if he had taken a more active role in Andrea's health and problems. I have read in some of the posts here that he is looking to remarry to have more children - it is hard to imagine that one could move on that quickly after losing the 5 kids he had. For me I think it would bring back too many memories. I feel sorry for both he and Andrea, but I do hope she gets the help she needs, rather than to be locked away in a prison cell to rot.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 09:05 AM
Hey Mitty..well i don't feel as sorry for Rusty..watched him on LKL last night and came away thinking...this guy is as dumb as a post...He tried explaining why he's divorcing her yet supporting her...that he can't quite forgive her enough to go back the way they were........He says" I kept asking her if anything was bothering her and she kept saying no"....DUH!!!!!

He seems to understand mental illness up to a point and then conveniently puts aside that when sick one can't be counted on to relay information??? I came away once again thinking of him as suprememly selfish and ignorant of his own complicity in what happened...CLULESS!!
Then he says he's sticking by her because she really doesn't have anyone else in the way of friends....Gee what a suprise!!!! :eek: :D Taking care of all those children and home schooling them and had no time for herself..???..How come??? :confused: DUH:razz:
Scary if he has children again...cuz you know it will be a woman he will have to control....

luthersmama
01-08-2005, 11:20 AM
All of the records on the yateskids site linked by Mitty are stamped to indicate that they are confidential and not to be distributed without the consent of the patient.

I wonder if Rusty got Andrea's permission to put them on the web?

I hope that somebody other than Rusty is looking out for her these days...

Texana
01-08-2005, 03:10 PM
... I don't believe Rusty should be held responsible for what she did, but I do believe he should have to answer for a lot of things. You would expect a husband to notice the heavy load Andrea was under, and to do a lot more in relieving some of that load. We can't really know how much he did or didn't do, but I think continuing to have babies, knowing that she worsened with each pregnancy.

Rusty said once that Andrea had "two hours a week to herself, but she usually chose to do the grocery shopping then and take Mary (the infant) with her."

That gives you a pretty good insight into Rusty's mentality. His former in-laws also quoted him as saying something like "that'll be a first" when they asked him to change one of the kids' diapers during one of Andrea's hospitalizations. The impression he certainly gave to his wife's family was that he wasn't much of a participant in things like that. Also, his wife's family said whenever they would ask Andrea if she planned on having more children she would say, "You'll have to ask Rusty."

Rusty is an engineer, and some of his attitudes are certainly understood by that engineering mindset: Sure, Andrea got sick, but she just took the medicine, and got better. So they could have more children. Just like an antibiotic you take when you have strep throat.

Whatever the doctors said to the contrary about Andrea's mental condition, Rusty just ignored.

That's where I do hold him responsible. As a college graduate, he had the ability to educate himself on mental illness. He could have researched her condition. He could have done so much more and he could have, in light of that information, made decisions that would have averted this tragedy. He should have been researching those drugs on his own and he should never have left her alone. He knew she had tried to kill herself at least once before. Suppose she killed herself with the children there? At the very least that should have been a major consideration with him.


It's sickening to think he's still living for what Rusty wants. He takes no responsibility for what happened, he puts it all back on Andrea or the medical profession. He wanted a "baseball team" of children, and nothing was going to get in the way of what HE wanted.

GatorMom
01-08-2005, 03:21 PM
Rusty Yates is one of the most disgusting examples of human life I've ever heard or seen.

Someone should tie him down and remove his testicles before he breeds again. Feel free to use a rusty knife (sorry) and skip the anesthetic. Rusty should suffer exactly as long as his children did when they died at the hands of the woman he drove to insanity.

He is 100% responsible for what happened to his children and his wife. He's an ass.

If Andrea Yates were my daughter, that monster would never get near her again.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 05:25 PM
Rusty Yates is one of the most disgusting examples of human life I've ever heard or seen.

Someone should tie him down and remove his testicles before he breeds again. Feel free to use a rusty knife (sorry) and skip the anesthetic. Rusty should suffer exactly as long as his children did when they died at the hands of the woman he drove to insanity.

He is 100% responsible for what happened to his children and his wife. He's an ass.

If Andrea Yates were my daughter, that monster would never get near her again.
he mentioned something on LKl about criticism he had gotten from the public...apparently he rejects it as dead wrong...yeah well most people find him partly responsible......

cynder
01-08-2005, 07:30 PM
~Andrea Kennedy was her class Valedictorian and is a registered nurse and until 1994 worked at The MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. She is 40 years old. The Kennedy family has a history of mental illness that affects several members. Time magazine reported that Andrea's brother and sister both suffer from depression, another brother has bipolar disorder, and the father who died of Alzheimer's may have had depression.
~Rusty Yates was an Eagle Scout and has a degree in engineering, He works at Johnson Space Center for NASA.
~Rusty And Andrea Yates married in April 1993. At their wedding Rusty announced that they planned to have as many children as God would give them.Over a six year period their 5 children were born in quick succession: 2/26/94, 12/12/95, 9/13/97, 2/15/99 and 11/30/00 - Andrea also had at least one miscarriage.
~All of the children were home-schooled by Andrea and Andrea did all the cooking, housekeeping and child care. They did not attend church but had home bible study 3 nights a week. From 1996 till 1998 the family lived in a 38' travel trailer because Rusty wanted to live a "simpler life". In 1998 they purchased a 350 sq. ft bus and lived in that until they purchased the Houston house in early 2000.
~Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." The minister teaches a very conservative form of Christianity that says that women should have a very subservient position in the home, and that Satan is constantly trying to drive people wrong. In correspondence, Woroniecki and his wife Rachel bombarded the troubled and isolated Andrea with talk of Satan, and the idea that God can see people's wickedness. In one letter, Rachel Woroniecki writes, ''Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death.''
~Andrea attempted suicide twice following the birth of her 4th child - June 1999 and July 1999 and was hospitalized both times. The 1st time once home, Andrea did not take her medication and began to self mutilate and would not to feed the children because she thought they ate too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceiling and heard characters on television talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about this, but neither of them told Andrea's psychiatrist. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged Rusty to let her die. She was hospitalized the 2nd time and was catatonic for 10 days. She was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. She also had the beginning signs of Schizophrenia, but these warning signs were never disclosed to the Drs. She was prescribed Haldol and her mental state improved. She was put on out-patient care and at that time the Dr. advised her and Rusty that she could worsen with the birth of future children and should not have any more children. Andrea had difficulty communicating with her Drs and was reluctant to reveal any of her symptoms, she often relied on Rusty to speak for her.
~At the urging of Andrea's family, Rusty decided it would help Andrea to buy a home and move the family out of the cramped bus. They bought a home in a nice family neighborhood but Rusty exhibited a sense of arrogance as he explained to his new neighbors why his children had to be home-schooled: "The social integration that the world claims is so essential is exactly what we need to protect our children from." So the Yates didn't integrate with their neighbors, who didn't agree with Rusty's beliefs.
~Once in the new house Andrea seemed improved and stable so in March of 2000, Andrea, with Rusty's encouragement, was again pregnant and stopped taking her Haldol. November 30, 2000, Mary was born. In addition to caring for the 4 boys and newborn Mary, Andrea also did the majority of the daily care for her Father, who had Alzheimers. On March 12, 2001 Andrea's father died and almost immediately her mental state deteriorated. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible. She again attempted suicide with her father's medications.
~The end of March 2001 Randy took a worsening Andrea to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released after 10 days of hospitalization and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.
~Two days later Andrea drowned her 5 children - During her confession she explained her actions by saying that she wasn't a good mother and that the children were "not developing correctly" and she needed to be punished. Found guilty Andrea was sentenced to life in prison.
~Rusty Yates filed for divorce in June 2004. He wishes to remarry and have a family, he said.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 07:52 PM
I think he is totally responsible for what happened...what an arrogant moron!!!

Candlelight
01-08-2005, 09:15 PM
Combined with the website Jeana put up with a photo of Andres when she was younger, highly functioning, beautiful, an RN, a lovely young lady.

Rusty Yates tore her life apart and used her like a slave was used. No wonder her mind broke. I'm surprised her body survived.

I wonder if she was ever beaten? We know she was deprived of normal living conditions, probably while pregnant- living in a stupid travel trailer and a school bus when he made a good salary- like I said before, close to $100,000 a year!!!

I wish she had had a strong family support system in her birth family, someone who could have rescued a woman who was nothing but a brood mare in a stall.

I hope and pray that she is sent to a mental hospital for the criminally insane, or a state locked institution. Like John Hinkley, the guy who shot Reagan. The facilites are secure, they are inspected, they provide medication and a safe environment.

ANDREA YATES IS NOT SAFE IN PRISON!!! Other women inmates to not take kindly to women who have killed children.. I am VERY surprised that she has lived this long among the prison population.






~Andrea Kennedy was her class Valedictorian and is a registered nurse and until 1994 worked at The MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. She is 40 years old. The Kennedy family has a history of mental illness that affects several members. Time magazine reported that Andrea's brother and sister both suffer from depression, another brother has bipolar disorder, and the father who died of Alzheimer's may have had depression.
~Rusty Yates was an Eagle Scout and has a degree in engineering, He works at Johnson Space Center for NASA.
~Rusty And Andrea Yates married in April 1993. At their wedding Rusty announced that they planned to have as many children as God would give them.Over a six year period their 5 children were born in quick succession: 2/26/94, 12/12/95, 9/13/97, 2/15/99 and 11/30/00 - Andrea also had at least one miscarriage.
~All of the children were home-schooled by Andrea and Andrea did all the cooking, housekeeping and child care. They did not attend church but had home bible study 3 nights a week. From 1996 till 1998 the family lived in a 38' travel trailer because Rusty wanted to live a "simpler life". In 1998 they purchased a 350 sq. ft bus and lived in that until they purchased the Houston house in early 2000.
~Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." The minister teaches a very conservative form of Christianity that says that women should have a very subservient position in the home, and that Satan is constantly trying to drive people wrong. In correspondence, Woroniecki and his wife Rachel bombarded the troubled and isolated Andrea with talk of Satan, and the idea that God can see people's wickedness. In one letter, Rachel Woroniecki writes, ''Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death.''
~Andrea attempted suicide twice following the birth of her 4th child - June 1999 and July 1999 and was hospitalized both times. The 1st time once home, Andrea did not take her medication and began to self mutilate and would not to feed the children because she thought they ate too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceiling and heard characters on television talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about this, but neither of them told Andrea's psychiatrist. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged Rusty to let her die. She was hospitalized the 2nd time and was catatonic for 10 days. She was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. She also had the beginning signs of Schizophrenia, but these warning signs were never disclosed to the Drs. She was prescribed Haldol and her mental state improved. She was put on out-patient care and at that time the Dr. advised her and Rusty that she could worsen with the birth of future children and should not have any more children. Andrea had difficulty communicating with her Drs and was reluctant to reveal any of her symptoms, she often relied on Rusty to speak for her.
~At the urging of Andrea's family, Rusty decided it would help Andrea to buy a home and move the family out of the cramped bus. They bought a home in a nice family neighborhood but Rusty exhibited a sense of arrogance as he explained to his new neighbors why his children had to be home-schooled: "The social integration that the world claims is so essential is exactly what we need to protect our children from." So the Yates didn't integrate with their neighbors, who didn't agree with Rusty's beliefs.
~Once in the new house Andrea seemed improved and stable so in March of 2000, Andrea, with Rusty's encouragement, was again pregnant and stopped taking her Haldol. November 30, 2000, Mary was born. In addition to caring for the 4 boys and newborn Mary, Andrea also did the majority of the daily care for her Father, who had Alzheimers. On March 12, 2001 Andrea's father died and almost immediately her mental state deteriorated. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible. She again attempted suicide with her father's medications.
~The end of March 2001 Randy took a worsening Andrea to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released after 10 days of hospitalization and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.
~Two days later Andrea drowned her 5 children - During her confession she explained her actions by saying that she wasn't a good mother and that the children were "not developing correctly" and she needed to be punished. Found guilty Andrea was sentenced to life in prison.
~Rusty Yates filed for divorce in June 2004. He wishes to remarry and have a family, he said.

Texana
01-08-2005, 09:48 PM
Candlelight, from all accounts her family did try. However, her mother appears quite elderly, and her father was suffering from dementia. I think her siblings felt quite helpless to help her and she refused of course to go against Rusty. From their comments in interviews there is clearly no love lost for Rusty. I think they are probably consumed with guilt or anger or both for not being able to help her.

Rusty did an excellent job of isolating Andrea. Even with a plethora of conservative churches around that would have supported her homeschooling, the desire to have a large family, and the emphasis upon a subservient wife, Rusty just couldn't find "one he agreed with."

I don't believe he ever beat her. It was much more emotional abuse and manipulation. In one interview, he said that he had "offered" to get Andrea helpf for the house, like a maid or housekeeper. It's so inexpensive here to get such help and with his salary and the price of the house they bought, it would have been a no brainer. He said she said no.

I've always thought that he couched it in terms of, "Well, if you can't handle this, Andrea," or worse yet, 'Looks like we should get some illegal immigrant to clean this house better." Something along those lines. Something that put Andrea down and made her perfectionistic character refuse. Maybe he said, 'But the money will have to come from somewhere so we'll have to cut back on something like the groceries." Something along those lines.

I've never known a woman in her right mind who refused a maid.

The fact that he could make the comment, 'You won't find a clean glass in that house," when he had just left an hour or two before--says it all, doesn't it? What the hell was HE doing?

At least those children are where Rusty can't get to them anymore either.

jilly
01-09-2005, 05:39 PM
I can't get over watching Greta (I think) last week when Rusty was on and they kept showing 2 photographs of Andrea - like a before and after a makeover. One photo was her mugshot and the other this glamorous rendition.

Did anyone see this?? I didn't see the beginning of the show and was just wondering what this was all about.

I've been reading all these threads and haven't seen anyone mention it & I'd think that I dreamed it except they showed the comparison photos about 4 times!!

Texana
01-09-2005, 06:37 PM
Jilly,
I think we talked about the photos here briefly earlier in this thread. One is the "glamor shot" style photo of Andrea, taken either just before she was married or right around that time. The other is the mug shot when she was of course very very mentally ill.

A picture is worth a thousand words, isn't it?

jilly
01-09-2005, 08:36 PM
Jilly,
I think we talked about the photos here briefly earlier in this thread. One is the "glamor shot" style photo of Andrea, taken either just before she was married or right around that time. The other is the mug shot when she was of course very very mentally ill.

A picture is worth a thousand words, isn't it?

Thanks Texana :) I always read the entire thread before I post - I don't know how I missed the previous page - probably resorted to scanning this one after reading the threads in the jury room and parking lot.

Gawd, this Rusty is the real nut imo. Couldn't he just look at her and see what this was all doing to her - she went from Beauty to Beast for goodness sake.

I agree with all the other posters, this guy was a sarcastic control freak. Why would she say she killed them because she wasn't a good mother otherwise. Probably because of his subtle derogatory comments to her on a daily basis.

This is simply heart breaking.

Texana
01-10-2005, 12:03 AM
Exactly, Jilly. And you really can't make a big enough deal about the photos. They are speak volumes.

One is Andrea, beautiful and healthy. Maybe not the most well adjusted and healthiest emotionally, but certainly a functioning person.

The other photo is just unspeakable.

And Rusty Yates had a big part in that. I do believe that day by day he helped that change, but even if he was the kindest, gentlest man on earth, he had to be the world's biggest fool to not notice the decline in her! She was scratching her head BALD, for pete's sake! She wasn't eating or bathing.

There was an article in the Houston Chronicle today (I'll try and add it in a minute, I usually don't succeed but I'll try) in which her friend talked, the one who tried to get help for Andrea and begged Rusty to do something just a few days before the killings. She visits Andrea still. The article mentioned that the children--especially John, I think the oldest, and Mary, the baby--were very well aware of her condition by their actions--John "shielded his eyes" when he looked at her, and Mary cried.

As sick as she was, Andrea noticed that.

It also said that Andrea said she asked Rusty, "What was I like when I was sick" and Rusty would say, "Like you are now, only quieter."

Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

smellsarat
01-10-2005, 12:31 AM
Anyone have those pictures..I've never seen her before pics???

Texana
01-10-2005, 01:07 AM
Anyone have those pictures..I've never seen her before pics???

Check the website referenced earlier in the thread. It's the one maintained oddly enough by Rusty. He'll probably shut it down soon, so check it out.

If you go to the Houst Chronicle story it probably has a side bar referencing the earlier stories and may have the photos as well.

You HAVE to see the before photo. It's unreal.

Even the photos of her after Mary's birth, when she was on the meds, is unbelievably different.

smellsarat
01-10-2005, 08:47 AM
Her situation reminds me of my sister who is schizophrenic...in the early years she hooked up with a guy she met in the hospital...and he would always insist that she go off her meds...inevitably she would end up back in the state hospital!!! GGGRRRR..turned out he was taking her disability checks ..stacking them up and when he left for Portugal (his homeland) he took his own state funded monies and hers!!!
I have a friend who is on Paxil for extremem anxiety, HER boyfriend wants her to go off it....What is wrong with these people that they would wish ill health on someone...I guess it's all about control and keeping them weak...barefoot and pregnant sure applies to Andrea doesn't it???

Gabby
01-10-2005, 09:40 AM
Her situation reminds me of my sister who is schizophrenic...in the early years she hooked up with a guy she met in the hospital...and he would always insist that she go off her meds...inevitably she would end up back in the state hospital!!! GGGRRRR..turned out he was taking her disability checks ..stacking them up and when he left for Portugal (his homeland) he took his own state funded monies and hers!!!
I have a friend who is on Paxil for extremem anxiety, HER boyfriend wants her to go off it....What is wrong with these people that they would wish ill health on someone...I guess it's all about control and keeping them weak...barefoot and pregnant sure applies to Andrea doesn't it???


I take Paxil and I would do without my blood pressure medicine before my paxil

Jeana (DP)
01-10-2005, 11:38 AM
Friend: Yates is calmer, optimistic

HOUSTON – Andrea Yates, whose capital murder convictions for drowning her children in the family bathtub were overturned last week, is calmer and in better spirits at the prison psychiatric ward where she has been serving a life sentence, a friend said.

Instead of sobbing uncontrollably or slipping into a psychotic state, Mrs. Yates was cheerful and optimistic during prison visits in December, said her best friend, Debbie Holmes.

"Her hands used to tremble and shake, and she used to move the phone from ear to ear, back and forth," Ms. Holmes told the Houston Chronicle in Sunday's online edition, describing the visits. "She is much more calm now."

Ms. Holmes said that she and Mrs. Yates reminisced about past Christmas holidays spent together and that Mrs. Yates asked whether she had used glass ornaments that the Yates children made for her.

"I told her I had and that I would put them up every year until the day I die," Ms. Holmes said.

She said that Mrs. Yates, separated by glass and listening to her through a telephone, paused, then smiled.

* * *
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/011005dntexyates.955ea.html

jilly
01-10-2005, 10:17 PM
Exactly, Jilly. And you really can't make a big enough deal about the photos. They are speak volumes.

One is Andrea, beautiful and healthy. Maybe not the most well adjusted and healthiest emotionally, but certainly a functioning person.

The other photo is just unspeakable.

And Rusty Yates had a big part in that. I do believe that day by day he helped that change, but even if he was the kindest, gentlest man on earth, he had to be the world's biggest fool to not notice the decline in her! She was scratching her head BALD, for pete's sake! She wasn't eating or bathing.

There was an article in the Houston Chronicle today (I'll try and add it in a minute, I usually don't succeed but I'll try) in which her friend talked, the one who tried to get help for Andrea and begged Rusty to do something just a few days before the killings. She visits Andrea still. The article mentioned that the children--especially John, I think the oldest, and Mary, the baby--were very well aware of her condition by their actions--John "shielded his eyes" when he looked at her, and Mary cried.

As sick as she was, Andrea noticed that.

It also said that Andrea said she asked Rusty, "What was I like when I was sick" and Rusty would say, "Like you are now, only quieter."

Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

Thanks for the link Texana. Very interesting...reduced me to tears.

I don't think I'm strong enough to follow this case (never did before either). I can't get past those poor kids and I think I detest Rusty Yates more than Scott Peterson.

Texana
01-11-2005, 12:01 AM
I find the Yates case makes me sicker and angrier than the Peterson case, because very few people could predicted that Scott Peterson would actually kill his wife. On the other hand, anybody with half a mind could have predicted that with the degree of mental illness Andrea was exhibiting, and her history, that things would have turned out badly in some way.

The only comfort I can find at all--if there is any to be found--is that these children cannot be warped or twisted by their father, as they might have been growing up with him. (They might have rebelled in other ways, but that can be just as bad for a young person.)

And maybe we will finally begin to focus attention more on mental illness AND protecting society from the violently mentally ill. It seems to be all one way or the other--no balance. A person who is found innocent by reason of insanity can still be set free in a shockingly short amount of time in Texas, (perhaps due to budget pressures? Hmm!) A man who gouged out his former girlfriend's eyes was recently found to be "well" after less than five years! (She had oddly enough, just turned down his marriage proposal.)

I do believe Rusty is someday going to meet the God he's been claiming to serve, and heaven help him then if he doesn't repent and realize his responsibility in this tragedy.

lisafremont
01-11-2005, 11:13 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

Why has Rusty never been held accountable for his part in this tragedy? Tonight I learned from Andrea's brother Brian that Rusty's attitude pre-murders was that depressed people just needed a swift kick in the rear.

Why was Andrea left alone with those children?

And why didn't Andrea, when she was having the murderous ideation, do something herself? She knew it was wrong but she gave into the impulses.

Still I blame Rusty more than her.

The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.

luvbeaches
01-11-2005, 11:32 PM
Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

Boy, that's no kidding. Why on earth would this man continue having children with her (considering her mental condition).

Tonight on LKL when her brother said Rusty felt a kick in the rear would fix it all, I about choked. This is criminal in my opinion. He knew, and he turned his head the other direction. However, just recently, Rusty was on LKL and seemed to support getting help for those who suffer from mental illness. What a turnaround. Too bad he didn't seek a little help for his wife, and just maybe his children would be alive today.

smellsarat
01-11-2005, 11:36 PM
Thank the ACLU in part as they have allowed the mentally ill and sick to remain free to be sick...Believe me when i tell you that altho my sister has had schizophrenia for forty years...she is LUCKY she got sick when she did...in these days altho tough...very tough to get help...at least there were state hospitals to go to back then ...

Now the only option for these people is prisons...or feending for themselves.....Luckily my sister was in the system before it was decimated ....so she is at least housed................I have found in trying to help friends in similar situations that in those 40 years treatment of the mentally ill has gotten worse ,...not better...We may have the methods ...as in drugs etc...but we cannot make them get help.....it is against their rights.....and the number of teens and children in trouble is growing.

LinasK
01-11-2005, 11:52 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

Why has Rusty never been held accountable for his part in this tragedy? Tonight I learned from Andrea's brother Brian that Rusty's attitude pre-murders was that depressed people just needed a swift kick in the rear.

Why was Andrea left alone with those children?

And why didn't Andrea, when she was having the murderous ideation, do something herself? She knew it was wrong but she gave into the impulses.

Still I blame Rusty more than her.

The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.I agree with all of your points above, but in addition, I read most of her 517 pages of medical history of her last admission(s). It appears that the psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed white-washed her with blanket assessments of she's getting better, he didn't record her previous suicide attempts where there were places to fill that info in, she didn't eat and was minimally responsive during her stay, yet he discharged her with "no suicidal intent", no mention of homicidal intent, yet mentions her preoccupation with mothering, refusing to put the baby down, refusing to take her meds, and "a supportive husband"... so it appears the medical system failed her too...

smellsarat
01-11-2005, 11:54 PM
I agree with all of your points above, but in addition, I read most of her 517 pages of medical history of her last admission(s). It appears that the psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed white-washed her, he didn't record her previous suicide attempts where there were places to fill that info in, she didn't eat and was minimally responsive during her stay, yet he discharged her with "no suicidal intent", no mention of homicidal intent, yet mentions her preoccupation with mothering, refusing to put the baby down, refusing to take her meds, and "a supportive husband"... so it appears the medical system failed her too...
Don't get me started on psychiatrists!!!!:razz:

LinasK
01-11-2005, 11:58 PM
Thank the ACLU in part as they have allowed the mentally ill and sick to remain free to be sick...Believe me when i tell you that altho my sister has had schizophrenia for forty years...she is LUCKY she got sick when she did...in these days altho tough...very tough to get help...at least there were state hospitals to go to back then ...

Now the only option for these people is prisons...or feending for themselves.....Luckily my sister was in the system before it was decimated ....so she is at least housed................I have found in trying to help friends in similar situations that in those 40 years treatment of the mentally ill has gotten worse ,...not better...We may have the methods ...as in drugs etc...but we cannot make them get help.....it is against their rights.....and the number of teens and children in trouble is growing.
Ummm, here in California, we have good ole' Ronny Reagan to blame rather than the ACLU for decimating the mental health system and turning these people loose on the streets to become homeless.
Tipper Gore, on the other hand, has done alot to promote awareness of mental health issues.:truce:

jilly
01-12-2005, 01:50 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Lisa, from what I've seen & heard about Rusty, I have a strong feeling that he probably made her have sex every night, and brainwashed her into thinking that it was her DUTY to satisfy her man's needs and bear children.

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

I know what you're saying but I can see them thinking that because 1. they knew how much she loved those children and 2. who would think that a loving mother would kill her 5 children. Just the same, the brother did say they considered at one point getting in between her & Rusty and getting her out. If I was them, I'd be suffering a tremendous amount of guilt right now.


Still I blame Rusty more than her. [COLOR=MediumTurquoise]Absolutey agree!


The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

Oh, I think they blame Rusty - As I heard it, he's the one that brought Warnecke into the situation. Didn't one of them say that Rusty turned Andrea over to him or something to that effect. And, he's the one Rusty bought the bus from. As I understood, Warnecke is the one who preached nothing else but Satan and that they were all going to die. I think they blame him but also Rusty for Warnecke's involvement.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.

Me too. I also think the Kennedy's are disgusted with Rusty for at one time ignoring the depression and now suddenly becoming an advocate for mental health.

Rusty to me is a danger in our society and to think that he will now go on to have more children is criminal.

By the way - sorry about the torquoise!! Thought I was being so clever in choosing a pretty color. Just a LITTLE hard on the eyes!!

smellsarat
01-12-2005, 05:16 PM
Ummm, here in California, we have good ole' Ronny Reagan to blame rather than the ACLU for decimating the mental health system and turning these people loose on the streets to become homeless.
Tipper Gore, on the other hand, has done alot to promote awareness of mental health issues.:truce:
actually it was deinstitutionalization that brought that about...they thought with the new meds they could empty the hospitals...what they didn't figure is these people would stop taking their meds when left on their own.............now the support networks are few and far between..............:doh:

luthersmama
01-12-2005, 08:23 PM
Don't get me started on psychiatrists!!!!:razz:


I have to try to be a little careful about how I say this but...here goes...

Dr. Saeed was apparently male. He was also Middle Eastern...Saudi? Egyptian? can't really tell....but I bet the outcome would have been a whole lot better for Andrea if she had been treated by a female or at least by a male whose background was a little different in regard to the "proper" role of women. I am familiar with Devereux and their programs and generally have a great deal of respect for them. On the other hand, I have had dealings with a couple of their foreign-born doctors and, although they may be perfect for some patients, a post-partum depressed, insecure, downtrodden woman would NOT get what she needs from them. PPD has a lot of cultural expectations and misunderstandings tied up in it. I honestly don't think that most male shrinks can be as effective as a female in treating it and a male who grew up in a super-patriarchal culture is never going to get it.

Texana
01-12-2005, 09:23 PM
Luthersmama, I think you said that very well...and I agree!

My sister had endometriosis for years. Finally, after various treatments failing for one reason or another, her doctor suggested a hysterectomy. She was turned down by the insurance--and when they called to question why, the insurance rep could give no reason in reply. Finally the rep answered, "In my country women don't get hysterectomies."

I don't know what culture that woman was from, but it clearly was a factor in how my sister was treated. (After the surgery, which was eventually approved, the doctor said he couldn't believe my sister had been even functioning with the level of pain that was obvious from her condition once they surgically examined her.)

I had just attributed her poor medical care to an HMO type deal, but I think you are right on in seeing yet another factor that led to this tragedy.

This was a catastrophic failure of all systems that should have been working to protect those children.

LinasK
01-12-2005, 09:25 PM
actually it was deinstitutionalization that brought that about...they thought with the new meds they could empty the hospitals...what they didn't figure is these people would stop taking their meds when left on their own.............now the support networks are few and far between..............:doh:
Well, when Ronald Reagan was governor, he initiated the deinstitutionalization here in California.:mad: (directed at him, not you)

LinasK
01-12-2005, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE=Texana]

My sister had endometriosis for years. Finally, after various treatments failing for one reason or another, her doctor suggested a hysterectomy. She was turned down by the insurance--and when they called to question why, the insurance rep could give no reason in reply. Finally the rep answered, "In my country women don't get hysterectomies."
[ /QUOTE]

:eek: :eek: :eek: I sure hope this woman was not allowed to keep her job!!!

Texana
01-12-2005, 09:36 PM
However, just recently, Rusty was on LKL and seemed to support getting help for those who suffer from mental illness. What a turnaround. T


Well, IMO, he supports mental illness health reform now because it's another convenient excuse for him. He'll support anything he can blame.

In regards to that psychopathic "preacher" Warnecke, Rusty said it was "Andrea" who really liked and listened to him. Well, if my husband liked a religious nut that said things I considered unhealthy, said nut wouldn't be getting into MY mailbox or anything else.

Rusty exercised control in that household. If Andrea listened to Warnecke, it was with Rusty's full approval and blessing.

Rusty just knows if he says he agreed he'll get even more blame.

The man is a pathetic excuse for manhood. He refused to protect the children he fathered, and he refuses to take responsibility for it.

As for Andrea, why she didn't remove herself or get help, mental illness is NOT the same as a physical illness. With a physical illness, you feel terrible physically, but your brain is still functioning enough to think, "Gee, I feel hot, fevered, achy, and fatigued. I've got to get to a doctor for some help and probably a prescription!" With mental illness, one and two don't add up. The brain no longer has the ability to recognize the severity of the illness and seek help. The mentally ill person is simply overwhelmed by the illness.

I've had personal experience with a loved one who was mildly depressed. Andrea was classified as severely depressed--even allowing for the fact that the schizophrenia somewhat overlooked--I would NEVEr have left my child or any child alone with the mildly depressed person. It was obvious to any body with a lick of sense that person was just barely capable of looking after themselves.

When you talk to these people, it's obvious something is wrong. They are clearly struggling. You wouldn't leave a child with a babysitter in this condition!

That's why Rusty is guilty of child endangerment. He should have been tried and convicted for it. I firmly believe he would have been brought up on charges if he hadn't been a white educated guy working for Nasa.

luthersmama
01-12-2005, 09:56 PM
As for Andrea, why she didn't remove herself or get help, mental illness is NOT the same as a physical illness. With a physical illness, you feel terrible physically, but your brain is still functioning enough to think, "Gee, I feel hot, fevered, achy, and fatigued. I've got to get to a doctor for some help and probably a prescription!" With mental illness, one and two don't add up. The brain no longer has the ability to recognize the severity of the illness and seek help. The mentally ill person is simply overwhelmed by the illness.




I had mild PPD after both babies. Nothing like Andrea's situation, but the second time landed me flat on my a$$ for three weeks, during which I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't go to class... it was awful. One of the worst things about it is that I FELT GUILTY for feeling sick!!! I wanted the babies so much and had waited years to have them....had a great husband, nice house, starting a new career....why should I feel sad? Why should I feel angry that the baby wasn't sleeping through the night? I thought I was being an ungrateful idiot.

Thank goodness I had a great (female) Dr. who took one look at me at explained what was going on. I was so relieved!!!! I went on some fairly serious meds and started getting better right away. Although I had missed most of three weeks of classes, I graduated in the top ten percent of my class three months later.

If I had been isolated and surrounded by religious fanatics telling me that all women are hopelessly sinful, I have no doubt that the outcome would have been bad. Having someone tell me that I would feel better some day was a HUGE help.

Since then, whenever I encounter a client or a friend who is in that bad place, I find it helps them alot to hear me say "You WILL get better. This isn't your fault! You can be helped! Take the meds, take care of yourself, do what the Dr's. say, and you WILL FEEL BETTER some day. Might not be tomorrow or even next week, but DON'T GIVE UP - YOU WILL GET BETTER!!"

smellsarat
01-12-2005, 10:57 PM
Unfortunately the majority of people do not equate depression as an illness.......Their is still stigma and there are still idiots like rusty who think all they need is a kick in the butt....depression also causes physical ills along with the mental problems which many people are unaware of.............

Many people in this field believe another word should be employed to name it...calling it "depression" really doesn't give it the full weight of seriousness it deserves............One of the best books I ever read that described what it feels like is Darkness Visible by William Styron...the fellow who wrote "The French Lieutenants Woman"....Reading it one can actually begin to feel the very symptoms that nearly caused him to commit suicide...........Walter Cronkites daughter also wrote a great book forget the name where she told numerous stories of well-known peoples struggles with the illness...(like Mike Wallace, Art Buchwald ,) Patty Duke is anotherwith a great book...etc...... Unfortunately many still don't get it!!

Texana
01-13-2005, 12:12 AM
The reaction from family can be so devastating if you are suffering from depression or other chemical inbalances/mental illnesses. My loved one had one family member who referred to it as "so-called condition."

Depression is a chemical inbalanace. Having a genetic weakness plus environmental stresses triggers it. Hormonal changes are also involved.

I think when Andrea was talking, nobody was listening, so after awhile, she just stopped talking. :furious:

KatzHome
01-13-2005, 12:40 AM
... If Andrea listened to Warnecke, it was with Rusty's full approval and blessing.
Yeah, I think so too. "Wives, obey your husbands." I think Andrea did everything that she could to be true to her marriage vows. She even lived in a school bus, for crying out loud! Without knowing her, I'm still certain that she tried her best to be a "good" wife. It's too bad he didn't honor his half of the marriage vow...

The man is a pathetic excuse for manhood. He refused to protect the children he fathered, and he refuses to take responsibility for it.
Beyond that, and before that ~ "Husbands, love your wives." From what I see, his love is very shallow. If he loved his wife ~ he would have put her good before all things. He would have wanted to provide for her the best that he could. (Not a school bus.) He could have controlled himself and gone to her when she was least likely to become pregnant ~ yeah, he may have done that ~ but from what I see, and from how he spoke of her being pregnant so frequently ~ I highly doubt it. If he really loved her with a holy love ~ so many things would have been different.


I would NEVEr have left my child or any child alone with the mildly depressed person. It was obvious to any body with a lick of sense that person was just barely capable of looking after themselves.
I wouldn't give Charlie, the stray cat that moved in last Christmas, to someone at work who drinks and is moody, depressed and somewhat spacy. I was really glad she didn't want him, even though she first said she wanted to take him, because I had serious reservations about giving the cat to her and I was trying to figure out a way to tell her I was keeping him without hurting her feelings.

It's disappointing that someone has less concern for their own children than I had for a stray cat.


...educated guy working for Nasa.
Un-freakin-believable...

jilly
01-13-2005, 01:40 PM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.

Jeana (DP)
01-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.


I don't think he makes nearly what you think he does.

smellsarat
01-13-2005, 06:43 PM
Katz..noticed the word "shallow" in your post...funny I think that of Rusty every time I see him on TV....I think with him ..what you see is what you get..nothing deeper there to discover.........

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 12:33 AM
Katz..noticed the word "shallow" in your post...funny I think that of Rusty every time I see him on TV....I think with him ..what you see is what you get..nothing deeper there to discover.........
Hey SAR ~ and he wants to marry again so that he can have more children. It just ticks me off more and more, SAR... He is shallow... I really think you're reading him right ~ I'm not getting it from seeing him... but from what he wrote on that website... from his recent announcement about wanting to divorce her so he can have a "family" again... He didn't honor the family he had the first time around... he won't be any better this time around, either ~ not with him blaming the preacher and saying it was his wife who was all into it... no ~ she had to have gotten it from Rusty believing in what that preacher was saying... so much so that his family wasn't well cared for by him... shallow...

I really hope that there isn't a woman who'll fall for his nonsense this time around...

smellsarat
01-14-2005, 12:49 AM
I really hope that there isn't a woman who'll fall for his nonsense this time around...You and I both know there will be far too many ready and willing!!!:razz:

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 01:03 AM
You and I both know there will be far too many ready and willing!!!:razz:
Yeah.. he'll be considered a "good catch" by all too many ~ and that's sad ~ really sad ~ especially if the next family is subjected to the same conditions as his first family.

I bought an "interview suit" yesterday, SAR ~ By all reason and logic ~ it's totally "WRONG" ~ but I like it... :D It's red... :D Bright blouse too... Couldn't miss me in the dark... :D

smellsarat
01-14-2005, 08:45 AM
Hey Katz with that suit you could become a Las Vegas Showgirl!!!:woohoo:

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 09:19 AM
Hey Katz with that suit you could become a Las Vegas Showgirl!!!:woohoo:
{{{tickle}}} Not exactly ~ It's still a conservative cut ~ hugs!

kato
01-14-2005, 10:18 AM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.

There is no alimony here in Texas.

There is temporary spousal support usually given to woman who is or has not been working. It doesn't last for long as the judge will tell the woman to get a job. My sister just went through a nasty divorce. She was getting 3,000/mo.. The judge gave her 6 months to find a job.

jilly
01-14-2005, 01:17 PM
There is no alimony here in Texas.

There is temporary spousal support usually given to woman who is or has not been working. It doesn't last for long as the judge will tell the woman to get a job. My sister just went through a nasty divorce. She was getting 3,000/mo.. The judge gave her 6 months to find a job.

No alimony?? Oh, my goodness!! Under no circumstances? Unbelievable.
So was the 3,000/mo for the children?

Texana
01-14-2005, 11:10 PM
Jeana, I think Rusty did make a very good salary. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 to 100k. Mr. Texana is in a closely related field.

He made enough to afford much more for his family than he gave them. And he could have hired a housekeeper for at least once a week, for about $50 a week.

Kato's right, no alimony in Texas. The child support can be quite high, though, it's set at (I believe) a mandatory 20% regardless of how much the custodial parent makes.

luvbeaches
01-15-2005, 12:33 AM
I don't think he makes nearly what you think he does.

I'd say 60-100k is pretty average (and many make more). My son and husband are both engineers, and we own our own business. It's not unusual for us to pay an experienced engineer 100K or more. We hire them out of college and start them at 60k with benefits.

My son has friends who took jobs (right out of college), in Boston, and northern California, and were paid 90k and 135k to start out. I'll bet Rusty made a very good living. I do not know how she took care of the house, the kids, and deal with him considering her mental state.

Rusty could have afforded to get her the best medical help out there (instead of the kick in the rear that he believed was all that was needed). I'm sure NASA has great benefits. Rusty strikes me as the one who called all the shots in the house. Now he seems to be softening toward mental illness. What a jerk.