Must Have Books?

[princessmer81]

Can anyone tell me the names of some of the best books about the case? I want to learn more about the case and sometimes it is hard to weed through the posts. Also, any good websites?

Thanks!

[sissi]

When my sister asked me, about a year ago, how I could stay so hooked on this case I decided to let her read the books.
I gave her "PMPT", after reading it she thought maybe the parents were guilty, then I gave her Steve's, she finished "certain the parents " were guilty. About a month later I gave her "Death of Innocence", and she believed the guilty parents were self serving. HA!
She has yet to read Singular, Wecht or" Cases that Haunt us", and I probably won't lend them to her. I thought I was Mary Hartman! No the truth is, we as Americans can all be "suckered" into believing and buying into anything, you guys can look under my Christmas tree as proof! (however no one bought me the neat little fork/spatula that turns the bacon)

[princessmer81]

When my sister asked me, about a year ago, how I could stay so hooked on this case I decided to let her read the books.
I gave her "PMPT", after reading it she thought maybe the parents were guilty, then I gave her Steve's, she finished "certain the parents " were guilty. About a month later I gave her "Death of Innocence", and she believed the guilty parents were self serving. HA!
She has yet to read Singular, Wecht or" Cases that Haunt us", and I probably won't lend them to her. I thought I was Mary Hartman! No the truth is, we as Americans can all be "suckered" into believing and buying into anything, you guys can look under my Christmas tree as proof! (however no one bought me the neat little fork/spatula that turns the bacon)
I just ordered Steve's book and PMPT on Amazon. I am excited for them to arrive.
I can't believe you didn't get the fork/spatula. Now your sausages are going to roll all over your skillet and you are never going to be able to catch them!

[Nehemiah]

I just ordered Steve's book and PMPT on Amazon. I am excited for them to arrive.
I can't believe you didn't get the fork/spatula. Now your sausages are going to roll all over your skillet and you are never going to be able to catch them!

Princess, I would say read PMPT first and then ST's book after that one.

[Jayelles]

Princess, I would say read PMPT first and then ST's book after that one.
I *really* didn't follow PMPT first time I read it. I realy struggled to understand who was who in the American Justice system :-)

[sissi]

Although I don't agree with Singular in every respect, I did think his book gave us an honest peek at Boulder , and the politics of protecting their own.
IMO it's a must read, it's an honest attempt, more than I can say for Thomas and less dramatic puff than Schiller.

[jayla]

Although I'm sure it wasn't their intention, "Death of Innocence" was the book that completely convinced me of their guilt. I remember reading somewhere that guilty people cannot stop confessing, and if you "read between the lines"so to speak, you will hear their confessions over and over again. Sooo, I read the book differently the next several times, and things "stick out".For example, why bring up the little tiffs between JonBenet and mom that occured that day,i.e. the disappointment of the doll and the disagreement over the clothing. Also I had noticed that if they had chosen their own little stories to share, it bothered me that Patsy mentioned singing "crazy" and that she and JB's favorite song was from "Gypsy" a disturbing memoir about a stage mom who exploits her daughter...and more of course. That was just a few.

[tezi]

www.acandyrose.com tells you everything and anything you need to know about this case. ACR has done an excellent job on her site.

Must have books: ST's book, Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, The police files book put out by the National Enquirer, Cyril Wecht's book (I can't think of the last two book names, just the author's, sorry), and Death of Innocence (also known as DOLie), by John and Patsy Ramsey.

[BrotherMoon]

Although I'm sure it wasn't their intention, "Death of Innocence" was the book that completely convinced me of their guilt. I remember reading somewhere that guilty people cannot stop confessing, and if you "read between the lines"so to speak, you will hear their confessions over and over again. Sooo, I read the book differently the next several times, and things "stick out".For example, why bring up the little tiffs between JonBenet and mom that occured that day,i.e. the disappointment of the doll and the disagreement over the clothing. Also I had noticed that if they had chosen their own little stories to share, it bothered me that Patsy mentioned singing "crazy" and that she and JB's favorite song was from "Gypsy" a disturbing memoir about a stage mom who exploits her daughter...and more of course. That was just a few.

DOI is Patsy's confession.

[Eagle1]

At least new to me, on a library list, title A Little Girl's Dream. I forget the author's name. Think it's a woman.

I have three books to finish before I try to get that one.

[Nehemiah]

Although I'm sure it wasn't their intention, "Death of Innocence" was the book that completely convinced me of their guilt. I remember reading somewhere that guilty people cannot stop confessing, and if you "read between the lines"so to speak, you will hear their confessions over and over again. Sooo, I read the book differently the next several times, and things "stick out".For example, why bring up the little tiffs between JonBenet and mom that occured that day,i.e. the disappointment of the doll and the disagreement over the clothing. Also I had noticed that if they had chosen their own little stories to share, it bothered me that Patsy mentioned singing "crazy" and that she and JB's favorite song was from "Gypsy" a disturbing memoir about a stage mom who exploits her daughter...and more of course. That was just a few.

As the years have past and we know more of the *evidence*, I see DOI as an attempt by the Ramseys (and I'm sure their attorneys) to *answer* the evidence. For instance, Patsy describes the 911 call, and how she placed the phone back in its cradle. Now why would someone even write that in a book; what's the significance of even saying that? I believe it's because they knew the *evidence* of the extra voices on the tape and they were countering that by writing that she did, in fact, by golly, put that phone back in its cradle. There are many *evidence* rebuttals in DOI and that raises an eyebrow for me, even though I am a fence-sitter.

[princessmer81]

[QUOTE=jayla]Although I'm sure it wasn't their intention, "Death of Innocence" was the book that completely convinced me of their guilt. I remember reading somewhere that guilty people cannot stop confessing, and if you "read between the lines"so to speak, you will hear their confessions over and over again. Sooo, I read the book differently the next several times, and things "stick out".For example, why bring up the little tiffs between JonBenet and mom that occured that day,i.e. the disappointment of the doll and the disagreement over the clothing. Also I had noticed that if they had chosen their own little stories to share, it bothered me that Patsy mentioned singing "crazy" and that she and JB's favorite song was from "Gypsy" a disturbing memoir about a stage mom who exploits her daughter...and more of course. That was just a few.[/QUOTE

Now I want DOI too! I read a little preview of it on Amazon.com. Have you ever heard that people who are lying tend to give too many details in an attempt cover up the lie? Well just from the little part I read about Christmas morning it seemed like they were giving too many details. John talked about how JonBenet wanted him to get out the camera but he didn't want to waste time behind a camera since his oder daughters death - an attempt to explain the missing Christmas video IMO ...
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

[Eagle1]

Well, okay, the R's had to be in some way involved in this, at least in the coverup and not paying attention when JonBenet complained about someone molesting her, but how can we prove it, instead of just being haters which does nobody any good and doesn't relieve our frustration?

It almost looks like they may have bought up most copies of the book, and that's a silly statement meaning we're almost letting this drive us nuts?

[Nehemiah]

Well, okay, the R's had to be in some way involved in this, at least in the coverup and not paying attention when JonBenet complained about someone molesting her

Given the interpretation that JB was previously molested, is there a source that states that the Ramseys knew about it...and then ignored it? Sorry to question, Eagle, but I'd like to read more about that situation. Thanks.

[Jayelles]

But here's a website I hadn't seen before:-

http://www.angelfire.com/ar3/jonbenet/index2.html

It's pretty up-to-date and has a nice timeline on it. The animated gifs are a little bit OTT though - slow the pages down a bit.

[princessmer81]

Thanks for the link. This peroson is obviously pro-Ramsey but they support their opinion with very weak "facts," which are not actually facts at all.
You are right, the graphics ar way over the top. I think it is sick that they have the details of JonBenets injuries written in a fancy script set against a snow flake background with Christmas tree ornimants intermixed with the gruesome details.

[sissi]

The Ramseys secured a publisher, one which is likely the biggest among the Christian book publishers, the information they gave had to be dotted over and over with Christian comments to qualify for press.IMO
I do not believe they "wrote" the book, however I do believe they told their story, and it was the discretion of the writers, editors and the publisher which chunks of material made it to print.
Of course this particular publisher "ate up" any Polly God's with Jonbenet stuff, any poems from friends with Christian themes, and any and all comments Patsy would make leaning toward the same.
If anyone wanted to over represent their innocence through words it would be this same publisher who wanted to be secure in the belief ,and make others the same ,that the Ramseys were victims in this crime. If they didn't believe in this , solidly , they would never have put it on the market.
I don't see why, IMO, anyone can think it was a Ramsey confession given the background of the book.

[Islander]

I have no idea if JB was previously molested, but I doubt very much that she complained to the Ramseys about it I don’t believe Steve Thomas ever alleged that, nor do I recall reading about it in PMPT. Furthermore, there is not a shred of evidence to indicate that Fleet White changed JB while she was at his house on Christmas night. I read somewhere that Fleet may have changed her at one time, but it certainly was not on Christmas.

[Nehemiah]

I agree, Islander.

Sissi, not only was DOI published by a Christian publishing company, there was a third writer along with the Ramseys...a pastor, I think. That disappointed me, because when I first read the book, I thought the Ramseys were devout Christians (and maybe they are....I don't know them) because of the writings; however, when I found out that a pastor/author had also written the book, I decided that the Chrisitian overtones were for the most part, his. That may be a wrong assumption on my part, but I was disappointed.

[Eagle1]

Given the interpretation that JB was previously molested, is there a source that states that the Ramseys knew about it...and then ignored it?

No, I don't think there's any source that says exactly that. I'm just going by the coroners' saying she was healing from an earlier internal injury which looked like it occurred such and such a time before the final one. I just remember thinking, hm, two days, so that must have been the party on the 23rd, where McSanta's wife said JonBenet was crying and said when questioned that she didn't feel pretty. Then there was the phone incident, where FW claimed to have been trying to make a call about his hospitalized mother's medicine, when Susan Stine turned away police at the door, something like all that. Later I know I read, in a post here, they found out FW's mother had not been in any hospital that night. I'm just guessing, a hunch, that JonBenet tried to call 911, knowing none of the adults cared.

Most of the things I'm remembering probably were reinforced for me by discussion in the various forums.

If someone at that party did molest her as I believe from the coroners' reports that they did, the one who came to the house wasn't necessarily the same person. JonBenet was the talk of the town, you know. A CU art student had painted some kind of picture of her that was offensive to her survivors. I don't remember how they described it. Somebody had slept in her bed at Charlevoix.

I just can't get over the feeling a lot of people were involved, and the claim that they delivered a couple of Christmas gifts and went home to bed just isn't true. Just a hunch. Not saying it's in any book.

[sissi]

I've never been able to find anything in print that suggested the coroner said she had been molested prior to the night of her murder. What he said was not that she had prior injuries but that she had chronic inflammation. This then was up for interpretation by every "expert" that wanted to share their two cents. Some said it could have simply been from overuse of antibiotics, bubble baths, or from irritation caused by bedwetting, others suggested a level of molestation that would not cause abrasions or tears. All of the injuries found on autopsy were acute and occurred the night of her murder. This has not been up for interpretation this is a fact.

[Eagle1]

ST and Schiller?

See chapter 24 of ST's, "In mid-Sept., a panel of pediatric experts from around the county reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation, that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed." ST had a theory that it was a form of punishment.

Anyone remember that book and movie starring Sally Field, about split personality due to her mother never getting over childbirth, sexually assaulting her to show how it felt? What was the title? (Not saying, of course, that Patsy ever did anything like that, and it was at a party when JonBenet was crying she didn't feel pretty, and evidently tried to call 911.)

I think the whole mystery is about the nature of their partying, but/and I may have already said, there was a new Lou Smit documentary Sunday night on Court TV, better pictures than we've seen before, showing the stun gun marks perfectly matched an Air Taser, and he tells a typical law enforcement logical story about an intruder, but totally leaves out all this about prior vaginal trauma, which has almost got to be relevant.

Possibly I guess it could be coincidence, since JonBenet was sort of the talk of the town, and the university, and there were lots of sex offenders and just plain jealous people around like the homes tour woman ranting as she was leaving.

[sissi]

Steve, I 'm certain did put this in print about his "panel" of experts, but the lie is still there, the truth is, the coroner never said it, some experts suggested it, others said no. It was not trauma , it was chronic inflammation.
It certainly would lesson the chances of a one night intruder if so, and limit our "suspects" to only those that had earlier access to this child, making it easier for the case to be solved. However, it is part of the ongoing debate and for now, it has not been resolved.
The truth is, the night of her murder there was damage, acute damage to her hymen ,a tear, and other acute injuries that indicated she was molested that night. If this molester was so rough as to kill her this night, why weren't there healing scars and such to suggest prior attacks ,if indeed, he had molested her before. There were not.

[concernedperson]

The book I am going to recommend has nothing to do with the Ramsey case but it has to do with southern thinking (don't bash I am a southerner lifelong). It is The Prince of Tides. By far, one of my 10 best ever. Not the movie,because it doesn't go into the characters as much. It will help explain some of the strangeness associated with this case but will not absolve anyone. Have a good read!

[angelnsb]

ST and Schiller?

See chapter 24 of ST's, "In mid-Sept., a panel of pediatric experts from around the county reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation, that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed." ST had a theory that it was a form of punishment.

Anyone remember that book and movie starring Sally Field, about split personality due to her mother never getting over childbirth, sexually assaulting her to show how it felt? What was the title? (Not saying, of course, that Patsy ever did anything like that, and it was at a party when JonBenet was crying she didn't feel pretty, and evidently tried to call 911.)

I think the whole mystery is about the nature of their partying, but/and I may have already said, there was a new Lou Smit documentary Sunday night on Court TV, better pictures than we've seen before, showing the stun gun marks perfectly matched an Air Taser, and he tells a typical law enforcement logical story about an intruder, but totally leaves out all this about prior vaginal trauma, which has almost got to be relevant.

Possibly I guess it could be coincidence, since JonBenet was sort of the talk of the town, and the university, and there were lots of sex offenders and just plain jealous people around like the homes tour woman ranting as she was leaving.
Hey Eagle, the name of the Sally Field movie was Sybill. It was based on the true story of Shirley Ardell Mason, an art teacher who died in 1998. Very disturbing movie, the poor lady.

[Eagle1]

Oh yeah. Now I remember. Thanks.

[Eagle1]

Never heard of it, and I'm originally a Southerner too. Sounds interesting if it has some abnormal psychology in it. Will you tell us a bit more, before we drop everything and go looking?

Isn't it great that we can read messages by opening the email notifications? I think this is the only forum that has that feature.

[Eagle1]

Sissi, you may be right, but I distinctly remember that JonBenet went to see the school nurse two successive Mondays, and someone said ST (?) said Nedra said JonBenet was only molested a little bit.

Do you remember that she was allegedly crying at the party on the 23rd, and McSanta's wife said she asked why, was told "I don't feel pretty", and that she evidently tried to call 911? I don't remember which book.

Police responded to the call, so had she gotten far enough along to give them the address, or did they get it some other way? You remember that Susan Stine turned them away at the door, and FW claimed his mother was in a hospital so that he'd tried to make a call about her medicine and mis-dialed? Anyone believe him? In some forum, they said where his mother had really been that night, not in a hospital. Sorry, I don't memorize sources, never know I'll need them.

[Eagle1]

You must have deleted your post that "The ignore feature is nice too", after an email notification was sent to me. I was going to say I can ignore w/out a button, and could think of other smart remarks but you know we have to watch it here. Evidently you're not using the feature.

Long as I'm here, I may as well say (again?) I think accusing Patsy is over-simplification. I may have said it before.

Hope I can remember to look for the book someone mentioned, Prince of Tides, something like our weird parties speculation. Have a nice day.

[concernedperson]

Never heard of it, and I'm originally a Southerner too. Sounds interesting if it has some abnormal psychology in it. Will you tell us a bit more, before we drop everything and go looking?

Isn't it great that we can read messages by opening the email notifications? I think this is the only forum that has that feature.

The Prince of Tides was written by Pat Conroy. It involves a South Carolina family. The mother of the family is very taken with local social mores but she is married to a shrimper and has higher social aspirations. She would use her children in every conceivable manner to achieve her goals. Without spoiling the whole book, a very terrible situation happened one night that was totally covered up by her and the imposed denial was brought upon the children to bear.The characters are richly drawn out and involves as much abnormal psychology as you can muster for a novel. But, I know families like that, my birth family is one of them. I used the comparison to the south because this is what I know and continuing to learn.

As an aside, remember I am the one who saw Patsy Ramsey act out in public that day. I am drawing my parallels on a life of experience. Not a 22 yr old without any experience. Patsy strongly resembled the mother in the book as well as other personalities that I have run in to.

[Eagle1]

That sounds like exactly my type of book, exactly!

Since reinstalling my printer-copier-scanner fixed some problems I was afraid I'd have to spend the whole day on, sending it to the manufacturer, I think I'll go look for it this afternoon.

[sissi]

Sissi, you may be right, but I distinctly remember that JonBenet went to see the school nurse two successive Mondays, and someone said ST (?) said Nedra said JonBenet was only molested a little bit.

Do you remember that she was allegedly crying at the party on the 23rd, and McSanta's wife said she asked why, was told "I don't feel pretty", and that she evidently tried to call 911? I don't remember which book.

Police responded to the call, so had she gotten far enough along to give them the address, or did they get it some other way? You remember that Susan Stine turned them away at the door, and FW claimed his mother was in a hospital so that he'd tried to make a call about her medicine and mis-dialed? Anyone believe him? In some forum, they said where his mother had really been that night, not in a hospital. Sorry, I don't memorize sources, never know I'll need them.

Mondays are tough days for kids, and a big day for school nurses, many ,many kids have "monday-itis", not wanting to get back into the swing of things. Jonbenet had pretty chronic sinusitis, and IMO an overuse of antibiotics was responsible for the vaginal irritation, little girls just can't live on amoxicillin, looking at that basement her problems could have been attributed to black mold as an irritant and likely she shouldn't have been on meds at all. The Christmas season, with it's dragging up of items that likely held on to many spores could have very well been her worst season for illness.

When you make a 911 call from a home phone your address pops up automatically, as does your phone number, normally if it's a hang up ,911 will return your call, if no one answers they will dispatch someone to the house.
This ,of course, does not work with cell phones, with their use you have to name the municipality you want and are redirected to the right district.

Not feeling pretty, may have been a red-flag, as was the expected secret santa visit. There was early information that indicated Jonbenet had blocked her window, since it has never again been mentioned over the last years ,I suppose it was fluff garbage and not reliable. However, if ,indeed, there were signs of her blocking the balconey entrance, it could indicate a late night visitor,one that threatened to kill her if she told. It would/could fit into the kind of "visitor" that was found in the other little girls bedroom as it could fit into many other scenarios involving a local (neighbor) type who gained access to her over those last days. I remember a story of a little girl not that long after Jonbenet's murder , a little girl who told dreams of someone getting into her room, no one paid much attention until the mother heard noises one night and found that someone was indeed in her room.

I think, Nedra, as a grandmother, was trying to come to terms with this in her own way, to believe the child wasn't raped gave her some comfort.

[Kaly]

[QUOTE=jayla] I remember reading somewhere that guilty people cannot stop confessing, and if you "read between the lines"so to speak, you will hear their confessions over and over again. I think I found a version of that statement here:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

[Eagle1]

I did find the book you mentioned, large print, about 800 pgs. I read straight through the first 300, then started peeking at the end and skipping around, wanted to get back to the forums. I know the twin sister recovered, but couldn't find how. He writes well but not really in chronological order.

Do you remember what the shrink told her after finding out about the three escaped convicts incident? Thanks in advance.

[Eagle1]

The new JBR book I found in the library list for a distant library is no longer listed. Anyone else seen A Little Girl's Dream?

They may be just rearranging the lists. I'll look again soon.

[jayla]

Little Girl's Dream...I read this book a while back. From what I remember, it was written about pagentry in general by a woman who not only participated in them when younger, but who had also been a director of a fairly large pagentry circuit. In all honesty, I didn't feel it had any relevance to JB, certainly no first person anecdotes. I always feel the nay-sayers will point out that "that doesn't mean that JB had the same feelings or experiences that the author did",and I guess that could be true. I ordered my copy from amazon.com, and they usually have a large used book section. Maybe your take would be different from mine Eagle, but I wasn't very impressed.:loser:

[Eagle1]

Thanks so much, Jayla. I'm never going to get caught up on my reading as it is, so that's one book I'll just not worry about. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. Thanks again.

[concernedperson]

I did find the book you mentioned, large print, about 800 pgs. I read straight through the first 300, then started peeking at the end and skipping around, wanted to get back to the forums. I know the twin sister recovered, but couldn't find how. He writes well but not really in chronological order.

Do you remember what the shrink told her after finding out about the three escaped convicts incident? Thanks in advance.

I'm not telling you anything...it will spoil the book. It is a whole family involvement...don't skip...read it as it was written. The reasons things happen often aren't explained in chronological order but sift in and out of our lives until something makes sense.

[Kaly]

Isn't some of that book about recovered repressed memory? Recovered memories has been scientifically proven over and over in the past decade to be unreliable.

[twinkiesmom]

I've never been able to find anything in print that suggested the coroner said she had been molested prior to the night of her murder. What he said was not that she had prior injuries but that she had chronic inflammation. This then was up for interpretation by every "expert" that wanted to share their two cents. Some said it could have simply been from overuse of antibiotics, bubble baths, or from irritation caused by bedwetting, others suggested a level of molestation that would not cause abrasions or tears. All of the injuries found on autopsy were acute and occurred the night of her murder. This has not been up for interpretation this is a fact.

Sissi,
You're using a layperson's interpretation of chronic inflammation. In other words, you're confusing it with irritation.

"Focal interstitial chronic inflammation" is a histopathological diagnosis. They cut thin slices of her vaginal tissue and examined them under a microscope.

This is the microscopic evidence of prior injury. It's up to an MD to interpret whether that injury was the result of sexual abuse.

[sissi]

Twinkiesmom, I suppose twinkie isn't a little girl?
BTW, my terms are not "lay" terms, they are quite correct in the clinical sense.
I tried to find something for you , online, to explain what I suggest, this will do.

http://www.drkoop.com/ency/article/000897.htm

[twinkiesmom]

[QUOTE=sissi]Twinkiesmom, I suppose twinkie isn't a little girl?
BTW, my terms are not "lay" terms, they are quite correct in the clinical sense.
QUOTE]



But you're using the word inflammation incorrectly. The autopsy findings are what was seen under the microscrope. It has nothing to do with vaginitis which is a macroscopic condition.

No, Twinkie is not a little girl, just as you're not a doctor. I'm not a doctor, but I read toxicology reports every day in my job. And I know how to separate the microscopic findings from the clinical observations.

[sissi]

Please tell, exactly what you think Meyer meant by using the term "chronic inflammation", if you don't mind.

[Nehemiah]

Twinkie'smom, do you read the autopsy report as her being molested prior to the murder?

[twinkiesmom]

Sissi,
The only use of chronic inflammation in the autopsy report with regard to the vaginal tissue is in the section of the microcroscopic results. The term used is "focal interstitial chronic inflammation."

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines the following:
interstice (in·ter·stice) (in-ter¢stis) [L. interstitium] a small interval, space, or gap in a tissue or structure.

interstitial (in·ter·sti·tial) (in²t[schwa]r-stish¢[schwa]l) pertaining to or situated between parts or in the interstices of a tissue.

So the chronic inflammation in the autopsy report is not what Dr. Meyer observed with the naked eye such as the redness you might see after a bubble bath. The chronic inflammation he describes he saw within the tissue under a microscope.

I know I am not qualified to interpret these findings but if forensic pathologists and/or pediatricians interpret this as abuse than I am inclined to believe them.

Read Dr. Wecht's book, and then we'll talk.

[princessmer81]

I think I found a version of that statement here:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."

[sissi]

I've read Wecht's book.
I will not argue the point, I do know what I am talking about, suffice it to say we can play battle of the experts all day and continue to take our positions.

Wecht quote..oops..he used "chronic inflammation"..

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

end quote.

I WISH...WISH..that this was a true finding, it would certainly narrow the suspect list, giving us only those that had current access, but NO, it is not a fact, it is a guess, and there are as many "expert" guesses out there to counter.

[sissi]

This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."

Yep, and, that Christmas note was a year after the murder with the ransom note language part of the subconscious, likely making it mean nothing at all.
It was not authored by Patsy alone, either, it was a cooperative effort by several, including the Steins.

[twinkiesmom]

I've read Wecht's book.
I will not argue the point, I do know what I am talking about, suffice it to say we can play battle of the experts all day and continue to take our positions.

Wecht quote..oops..he used "chronic inflammation"..

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

end quote.

I WISH...WISH..that this was a true finding, it would certainly narrow the suspect list, giving us only those that had current access, but NO, it is not a fact, it is a guess, and there are as many "expert" guesses out there to counter.


Wecht is also referring to the microscopic findings. It's within the tissue, not just a surface observation.

And we're not talking about guesses, we're talking about expert opinions.

And the quote you gave makes even more sense to me...Wecht appears to be saying that JBR has minimal acute injuries from the night of her death...She's missing most of her hymen (per the autopsy report)...It's just missing without a fresh wound coinciding with the loss of tissue.

[Eagle1]

The Prince of Tides has already gone back to the library, and I really did look hard for the main point of it all. I just wanted to know how the therapist cured the twin sister after the guy twin told her about the repressed incident, a rape. Nope, I don't know anyone who's been raped, just curious. Like I said, I have other things to read before time to return them, and eyesight is suffering a little.

There may be a lot of others here who also would want to know this one detail, And I thank you for the title. It's a really rambling book, full of unrelated anecdotes complete with names ! The grandmother getting into the coffin to fool a neighbor, who declared she looked almost alive, I know the author just couldn't resist, but we may have heard it somewhere before. I suppose there was a scene like in "Sybil" when the twin was reminded, forced to deal with the rape.

[concernedperson]

The Prince of Tides has already gone back to the library, and I really did look hard for the main point of it all. I just wanted to know how the therapist cured the twin sister after the guy twin told her about the repressed incident, a rape. Nope, I don't know anyone who's been raped, just curious. Like I said, I have other things to read before time to return them, and eyesight is suffering a little.

There may be a lot of others here who also would want to know this one detail, And I thank you for the title. It's a really rambling book, full of unrelated anecdotes complete with names ! The grandmother getting into the coffin to fool a neighbor, who declared she looked almost alive, I know the author just couldn't resist, but we may have heard it somewhere before. I suppose there was a scene like in "Sybil" when the twin was reminded, forced to deal with the rape.

Most of the children were raped as well as the mother. But the convicts were killed by the one child who was watching the episode. He was the child who was later murdered by the police. The mother went into denial mode and thereby offered no assistence to her children and they were adversely affected by this incident. Then there was the brother who tried to protect them and they felt the guilt of their brother's murder over land I might add. It was intense and yes, there was anecdotes from time to time. But the point is, denial. How ugly denial is and how it affects others and what they might become because of it. I thought it was a great book but tragic!

[sissi]

Wecht is also referring to the microscopic findings. It's within the tissue, not just a surface observation.

And we're not talking about guesses, we're talking about expert opinions.

And the quote you gave makes even more sense to me...Wecht appears to be saying that JBR has minimal acute injuries from the night of her death...She's missing most of her hymen (per the autopsy report)...It's just missing without a fresh wound coinciding with the loss of tissue.

Your last sentence is contrary to all expert opinions.
Quote Wecht..
"My belief is that there was fresh, acute, sexual assault, and my belief is that there is evidence of older sexual assault.''

I do not agree with Wecht, as there have been experts counter his claim that there was an indication of prior abuse. However, as I have stated before, it would certainly limit the suspect pool and get this crime solved.

Carnes lost her credibility with some, but with others, such as myself ,she is believed to be ethical and honest.
12 The bleeding in JonBenet's genital area indicates she was alive when she was assaulted.
(SMF 48; PSMF 48.) Her hymen was torn and material consistent with wooden shards from
the paintbrush used to make the garrote were found in her vagina. (SMF 48-49; PMSF 48-49.)
No evidence, however, suggests that she was the victim of chronic sexual abuse. (SMF 50;
PSMF 50.)

[ScarlettOHara]

This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."
Hi all -- I've been lurking for some time. This is my first post here.

I work in a large public hospital. Our unit recently hired a doctor who was born and trained in the Phillipines. I was quite surprised to find, shortly after she started work, that she frequently uses the phrase "and hence" -- just like in the ransom note. For example, "The fetal heart rate slowed, and hence the C-section."

I'm dying to ask where she picked that up -- and tell her that it's grammatically incorrect, whether it is or not (LOL).

This doctor is the ONLY person I have ever known who has used this phrase habitually.

It's all the more puzzling because she doesn't speak English well. Maybe she attended the Subic Bay Training Center (haha) --SBTC.

[Eagle1]

I'm curious too. Did she pick up the phrase from someone in the legal profession, where she may have had some kind of case, or in religion? Maybe a Jim Jones type "missionary"? She may even say she doesn't remember where she got it.

[Eagle1]

Isn't it amazing how our culture habitually blames everything on mothers? Why? Because they were able to supply all our needs in the uncomplicated beginning of our lives, and we expected that to be permanent? We expect mothers to be able to solve all problems?

The father in The Prince of Tides was such a brute, the children hated him, and the mother ended up leaving him, nothing else she could do. The author said men just aren't taught to love. Can't be done? The father fell apart and asked how he was going to live w/out her when he learned the mother was divorcing him. "The other side of a bully is a coward."

Both the author and his mother coped by denial, putting the convict rapes and father's brutality behind them, much healthier than the girl twin's internalizing it all and trying to kill herself or change her identity. (Which Tom, the author twin, was also doing by telling his wife to tell his mother he wasn't there?) Would any of them have been helped by inviting gossips into the mess to make it even bigger? I think the mother's damage-control tactics and fortitude after the rapes was pretty smart, and Tom was just in a stage where he needed to blame her, but he rose to the occasion when he was the one who had to go to NY to help his twin sister.

Happy ending, though, if I remember correctly?

Nobody here found out the key to that, how they got the suicidal girl adjusted back to normal, so that (even though oldest brother got into a land dispute and got himself killed) they ended up finally one big happy family?

When I take some other books back, like "The New Jackals" I didn't even get to start on, I'll ask the librarians. Usually they've read some of everything. Even "When Bad Relatives Happen to Good People", which title just sounded like some interesting psychology study. I'd already read all of the college psych reading list except one book, before taking just a few psych courses, and the gist of it was that this is an evolving science. No guarantees.

[Eagle1]

Tomorrow I may be going to the library. Hope I don't forget to ask around.
Doesn't anyone else want to know?

[close_enough]

Isn't some of that book about recovered repressed memory? Recovered memories has been scientifically proven over and over in the past decade to be unreliable.

i saw the movie Prince of Tides years ago...Barbra Streisand (sp) played the shrink, & Nick Nolte was the patient....he had all kinds of repressed memories, that were all brought out, by the end of the movie...best i can remember, the movie was just awful....imo

[Eagle1]

I hope I can remember to ask the librarians if they've read the book. Maybe the author never did get to how the twin sister was healed. Instead, he took us on all sorts of irrelevant side trips with evidently peoples' real names, who would probably file suit if they'd read it or heard of it ! I can imagine, they must have made it into a movie just because it was so long, and nobody read all of it to notice the most important thing was missing (?) So I guess the movie didn't tell how the suicidal sister was healed either.

[Kaly]

DOI is Patsy's confession.
How do you feel about A Mother Gone Bad? That is supposed to be Patsy's confession. I just ordered one from Amazon, and it was interesting what the reviews said.

Which book is better? IYO?

[BrotherMoon]

Patsy didn't write AMGB, so how could she confess in it?

Hodges makes the mistake of doing associations with another person's material and then drawing conclusions about that person from his associations. He is also crippled by Freudianism. (Excuse the F word.)

I'd just stick to Wecht's, Thomas', Schiller's and McLean's books, also Mindhunter. DOI is a must.

And of course, The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (play, book and movie), and The Psalms are musts. And read Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, just for fun.

[Eagle1]

I haven't even heard of that one, would love to read a new one. Title?

[BrotherMoon]

I haven't even heard of that one, would love to read a new one. Title?

JonBenet's Mother: The Tragedy and The Truth! by Linda Edison McLean

JonBenet knew, even then, at age 2 1/2 that her sister Beth was now an angel and had gone to live with Jesus in Heaven.

JonBenet used to tell everyone how she had a sister who is an angel.

After her visit, I found she [Patsy] had left a little angel doll, with blond hair in pigtails; I put it next to Jim's picture on my dresser. - Linda McLean

If your little daughter had been strung up with her hair in pigtails, would you carry around a little angel doll with the same color hair in pigtails?

[ScarlettOHara]

I'm curious too. Did she pick up the phrase from someone in the legal profession, where she may have had some kind of case, or in religion? Maybe a Jim Jones type "missionary"? She may even say she doesn't remember where she got it.
I asked her about it today. She says she didn't pick up the phrase "and hence" until she started practicing medicine in Las Vegas.

She had a silly grin on her face when she talked about it -- maybe it involves an old boyfriend.

[Kaly]

I just finished Steve's book and am reading DOI. I think it's funny the way they bend over backward to look like a typical American family. Not one glamour shot of JonBenet in all of the photos. Also, John described their Charlevoix mansion as a "cottage." (??)

Bro Moon, the only thing I like about Freud is his iceberg:
http://www.wilderdom.com/personality/L8-3TopographyMindIceberg.html
Just love that! (And nothing sexual about it - LOL)

I'm going to Cripple Creek this August but we may go through Denver to get there, so I'm trying to figure out a way to go through Boulder. However I guess they fenced the house pretty good, so there might not be much to see. I would feel bad being another look-ee-loo there, too. If I went, is there anything else that would be interesting to see, I wonder?

[Kaly]

JonBenet's Mother: The Tragedy and The Truth! by Linda Edison McLean
Bro Moon, that book is out of print at Amazon. But why would you recommend it when it sounds like so much propaganda? I would really like to know. Here's a review from Amazon:

Written as a 'cri de coeur,' a work of love and friendship towards the Ramseys, the book is careful to avoid any isue that would taint the image of the Ramseys as a perfect couple: perfect lovers, perfect friends, perfect parents, perfect citizens. There is an irony in painting such a picture: the book contains the classic information that is offered in court after a person has been convicted of a crime: relatives, ministers, fellow workers, and whoever is willing to utter a favorable remembrance of the convict is brought before the court to try to mitigate the severity of whatever sentence is about to be passed.

This short book is packed with pictures (I counted 69) of the Ramseys at home and at play. It contains dozens of letters and snippets by those who love the family: some were quite moving; but there are no new iterpretations of the facts, and certainly no new facts pertaining to the murder of JonBenét. The book is not about the murder, but rather about what fine people the Ramseys are.

[BrotherMoon]

You can go from Denver to Boulder to Cripple Creek by hwy36 then the peak to peak hwy, which is high and wind - y. The Pearl street Mall is good for people gazing, also "The Hill" and the CU campus is worth a look. All are close by each other. The Ramsey house is unremarkable. The fence doesn't block the view. After you see the house, go back south to Baseline, then west past Chataqua Park all the way up to the top to artists point for the view east.

[trixie]

I just finished Steve's book and am reading DOI. I think it's funny the way they bend over backward to look like a typical American family. Not one glamour shot of JonBenet in all of the photos. Also, John described their Charlevoix mansion as a "cottage." (??)

Bro Moon, the only thing I like about Freud is his iceberg:
http://www.wilderdom.com/personality/L8-3TopographyMindIceberg.html
Just love that! (And nothing sexual about it - LOL)

I'm going to Cripple Creek this August but we may go through Denver to get there, so I'm trying to figure out a way to go through Boulder. However I guess they fenced the house pretty good, so there might not be much to see. I would feel bad being another look-ee-loo there, too. If I went, is there anything else that would be interesting to see, I wonder?

If you can, then definately go!! At least you can drive slowly down the street (it IS residential) and check out just how close together these houses actually are. That is what totally blew me away. It doesn't come across that way on TV. The street is narrow , so the houses across the street aren't that far away from each other eithor. Don't forget they have changed the address so don't bother looking for 755 15th St. I don't know what the new address is, I recognized the house by sight. You can check out the location of the house in relation to the Pearl Street Mall, the University, the homeless shelter (Church), you can find the Church her memorial was held at(was that St. Johns Episcopal?) there's just all different kinds of things to look at besides the house . All of which have to do with this case. Oh, don't forget to check out Pasta Jays! Definetly go, just don't loiter aroud the house. I think my husband and I drove past it 5 times slowly so I could take pictures! (He's so good to me.)

[Kaly]

Thanks Trixie and Brother Moon, for the JBR "tour" help! I'll be sure and report back if I go this August.

[BrotherMoon]

Bro Moon, that book is out of print at Amazon. But why would you recommend it when it sounds like so much propaganda? I would really like to know.

It's honest. She does Patsy no favor though. See my post above. That's cold, sociopathic coldness. McLean describes Patsy as an over achiever, she uses the word "over" many times to describe Patsy. If I was to write abook about her, I might title it "Above and Beyond".

[RedChief]

I too thought the conjunction, "and hence", was not an oft-used phrase, when I first became aware that it had appeared in the ransom note. Later, when I saw it in the memorial, I was prompted to call it to the attention of the authorities. Little did I know that by then the whole world had noticed it. It had even been discussed in Schiller's book which I didn't have at the time. Boy, was I embarrassed! I think the ransom note and the memorial were among the first few documents I downloaded from the internet. I did receive a "thank you" from the BPD.

Since then I've discovered that it's not all that uncommon. I have an old grammar and composition textbook which is replete with "and hence." I noticed that in the book, DOI, the Ramseys have switched to "and consequently."

What is even more compelling though is the construction of the sentence in the memorial in which it appears. It has exactly the same form that the sentence in the ransom note had prior to the crossing out of the word, "delivery", and proceeding instead with the word, "pick-up", which is improperly hyphenated. So, compare "...no hope..., and hence no hope..." to "...earlier delivery..., and hence...earlier delivery..." The noun/subject, along with it's modifier, is repeated on both sides of the conjunction in both documents. It appears as if the writer of the ransom note-assuming one author-had such a strong tendency to engage in this repitition, that he/she inadvertently used the wrong word; thus the correction.

Isn't that a marvelous explanation that Patsy came up with! She begins by explaining that she had no idea why it was used, and ends by explaining that it's an ordinary everyday word: "The fact that we used ANY SET OF WORDS in our statement meant nothing more than an attempt to convey our personal feelings at the moment we were writing."

Face it, Patsy, it was a dumb choice of words considering that you were suspected at the time of having authored the ransom note. Is she taunting us? Note that the heading for one of the chapters in their book was TABLOID TACTICS AND POLICE RUMORS. Is this reminiscent of "We are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics"? I'm surprised she didn't opt for TABLOID RUMORS AND POLICE TACTICS.

Are these two in the habit of collaborating on Ramsey documents-Christmas letters and the like?

In the book (the dedication?): For JonBenet Wherever we go... Whatever we do...

[trixie]

RedChief, you're my new favorite poster. :clap:

[Kaly]

Has anyone read this book, Journey Beyond Reason? It's at: http://www.peggylakin.com/index.htm
I can't really tell how much it's about other unsolved murders though. It's seems mostly to be about JBR.

[trixie]

I've read it. Quite some time ago, actually. I think it was written by a poster named "Little". I think you can read the entire thing online or order a real book. I ordered the book had it sent to my home. I think Little has a message board somewhere but now I don't remember where it is.(Crime & Justice, maybe?) I think she posts here sometimes or over at Tricias other board Forums for Justice.
It's a good book. It's like reading everything that's on the boards. It seems like she just put it all together and put it in a book. I admire her tenacity. The very back of the book has a few pages about a murder that happened , I think, in Conneticut. (Can you tell I don't have access to my book right now? lol) Mathew Margolis. VERY sad story. It's just a kind of brief overview of the known facts of the case. Another unsolved murder. That part isn't very long in the book and it's at the end. Other than those few pages about Mathew it's ALL about Jonbenet and the forums and some of the posters.
I keep meaning to email Little and tell her how much I admire her for actually sitting down and writing it all up. Maybe I'll try to find her website and tell her there. If I find it I'll come back and ket you know. Can anybody help here?

[Kaly]

Little's over on the JonBenet Ramsey forum at Crime & Justice.
http://p216.ezboard.com/bcrimeandjustice13552

[RedChief]

Fickle are you?

How does one insert smilies, etc. into ones messages? This is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Is there anybody out there who can glow, and would like to make a little flower grow? Shine on me." ONJ

[JBR_Justice]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for these 2 books:

Pretty Baby: The Life And Death Of Jonbenet Ramsey ; Keene-Osborn, sherry (1997)

JonBenet Ramsey - John H. Walker

I tried searching Ebay but I could not find them. Does anyone know another place I can try?

[sissi]

I didn't know Sherry Keen Osborne wrote a book about this case? If I had known I would have been the first to grab it , as I considered her a sensible ,dedicated to the truth kind of gal.

[Eagle1]

I'd like to get them too. It's getting impossible to find even the old ones around here, midwest. I have about three, and the others used to be in libraries. No more.

[Kaly]

Anybody want Mother Gone Bad? I think it is weak.

[sandraladeda]

Okay, JBR experts. I have a dilemna. Today I received my book order, with Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller AND JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas.

WHICH DO I READ FIRST? :waitasec:

(...bowing down to your expertise on this subject...)

[RedChief]

Okay, JBR experts. I have a dilemna. Today I received my book order, with Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller AND JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas.

WHICH DO I READ FIRST? :waitasec:

(...bowing down to your expertise on this subject...)

sandraladeda,

That's a tough question. JONBENET is a Patsy did it book, which will give you some insight into the investigation that PMPT will not, since it's from the perspective of a so-called "lead investigator".

PMPT is more of an all-encompassing chronology with snipits of media reports; it contains quite a few interesting interviews with several of the "key players." Both books contain a fair amount of characterization. Neither is a "just the facts" book. Schiller doesn't single out a key suspect. He's neutral on that score.

Whichever you decide to read first, remember to take them both with a grain of salt.

[thepostess]

Hello--first time poster here.

I read DOI first and kind of forgot about it. Months passed. Then I stumbled upon PMPT. Now I am reading ST's book and I also have The Police files and Cyril Wecht's book. I am still undecided.

I'd like to think they didn't do it, but can't say yes or no yet. JBR was the same age as my oldest son, now 14, and I now have a 6 YO daughter. I can't even imagine that happening to her.

BTW-I grew up outside of Boulder, spent a bunch of time there as a kid. And my mother Worked Rape crisis there for Boulder PD.