View Full Version : Flippy Esso: what do we know?
What do we know about Flippy Esso?
Note: "Flippy Esso" is the code name that has been being used for this "S.O." who "flipped out" soon after the murder. In this case, SO does not stand for Significant Other it stands for Sexual Offender. He worked for a sub contractor at the Ramsey home.
Lets post information on him here in this thread, but please remember: use Flippy Esso, not his real name. He doesn't deserve to be dragged through the Internet Mud. Atleast not yet.
Oh, just for the record: At the time Flippy Esso was working on the Ramsey jobsite, the Ramseys were unaware of his having troubles with the law of any sort, much less of a sort involving improper activities.
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 09:40 AM
Where can one go to read about Flippy? I am willing to take an unbiased look at him.
Sabrina
11-03-2003, 10:51 AM
Did Flippy Exon ever have his handwriting analyzed? DNA analyzed?
What were the dates that Flippy worked for the Ramseys? And can you give us details on his prior offenses? Thanks.
WhiteWolf
11-03-2003, 11:40 AM
Is this the guy JT Colfax met (or heard about) while he (JTC) was in jail?
why_nutt
11-03-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Toth
What do we know about Flippy Esso?
I think the most important thing we know about him is that, in eighteen paid months on the job with access to all the investigative resources he wanted, Lou Smit has not even attempted to build a compelling case against him. Since Smit prides himself on following the evidence towards a perpetrator, and Smit has not followed evidence toward the man's direction, the man must have been cleared, at the very least in Smit's opinion.
Barbara
11-03-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Lets post information on him here in this thread, but please remember: use Flippy Esso, not his real name. He doesn't deserve to be dragged through the Internet Mud. Atleast not yet.
How nice of you Toth. I just wish you and your friends would have been as thoughtful regarding:
Ariana Pugh
Linda Pugh
Merv Pugh
Fleet White
Priscilla White
Daphne White
Chris Wolf
Santa McReynolds
Janet McReynolds
and of course..........the VanDams
and the list goes on of other innocent people you were glad to drag through the mud.
Disgusting! :fuming:
Jayelles
11-03-2003, 12:44 PM
You say this guy is a sex offender. What was his sex offence?
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 01:28 PM
Okay, Toth, surely you have not led us down this path of looking at Flippy and now disappeared on us? We need more info in order to go this way.
I think WhiteWolf hit the nail on the head. Toth is probably referring to the guy JT Colfax wrote about in his jailhouse ramblings.
Click here (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/arkansas/1023/letters/t990613.htm)
Then click here (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/arkansas/1023/letters/t990617.htm)
tipper
11-03-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Barbara
and of course..........the VanDams
and the list goes on of other innocent people you were glad to drag through the mud.
Disgusting! :fuming:
My recollection is that Toth was convinced of Westerfield's guilt.
Jayelles
11-03-2003, 02:34 PM
My recollection is that Toth was convinced of Westerfield's guilt.
I believe he was. However, Barbara was referring collectively to Toth and his "friends"
I just wish you and your friends would have been as thoughtful regarding:
Barbara
11-03-2003, 02:45 PM
Yes, I was referring in total to him AND his friends. He may have thought Westerfield guilty, but he continues to revere the 8 * friend as close to a holy woman, and we all know how she felt about the VanDam case.
Any yes, regardless of what Toth's personal view on the Van Dam case, it is still disgusting. There is still a long list of others in the Ramsey case that they didn't mind dragging through the mud, including Ariana Pugh, also a child at the time they were accusing her of being in a porno flick with her father.
So I find it quite irritating indeed when they come over here to scold us about discussing Burke, (and others) when they seemingly didn't mind discussing Ariana Pugh in a pornographic context or any other of those thrown under the bus.
TLynn
11-03-2003, 02:53 PM
Did Flippy have a passion for pineapple?
Tricia
11-03-2003, 02:53 PM
Let's see almost 7 years later, we now have a suspect that ( as Why_Nut pointed out) Lou Smit should have investigated fully...hmmm..Yep. It's him. The intruder. Case solved.
Toth if you want us to discuss this person you have to give us some hint about him.
Tricia, in my last post, I gave 2 links that I think contain the name of Toth's suspect.
SisterSocks
11-03-2003, 03:30 PM
Did flippy have a key to house since he was working for contractor?
How old was flippy Toth?
When was this Flipped out person brought into light?
How long has this been going on ? Yanno?
Originally posted by Barbara
How nice of you Toth. I just wish you and your friends would have been as thoughtful regarding:
....
and the list goes on of other innocent people you were glad to drag through the mud.
Disgusting! :fuming: I have not dragged anyone through mud who wasn't already up to his neck in it. I used "Thomas Aquinas" instead of Gary Oliva even though I took considerable heat for it and some luminary even said it was blasphemous since they thought Aquinas was from the Bible instead of a reference to the nearby Youth Ministry Hall. I also used 'boots' instead of Helgoth and Callie for our Slo-life friend who gets raped by men who are several states distant at the time.
Flippy Esso was a young man. I usually emphasize that he is not a sex offender, he was merely convicted of being a sex offender and the registration is that of a person convicted of the offense, it is not an admission of having committed the offense for which he was covicted. It never is. Registration merely acknowledged the conviction, not the offense.
he had 'troubles' with wealth issues and he was just 'cheap labor' to paint the Ramsey home for a sub-contractor.
I do not believe that Lou Smit is likely to confide in me and I have no idea if he is one of the several sex offenders that Lou Smit is still investigating.
Originally posted by Sabrina
Did Flippy Exon ever have his handwriting analyzed? DNA analyzed? I think you would have to address that question to the BPD. I surely wish they would have said in six fullyears one way or the other just what they had done and whose dna eliminated them. Ofcourse if they had announced that Flippy Esso, not matching the dna was eliminated, they would also have to announce that Patsy, not matching the dna, was also eliminated.
I would hope that posters who live near Boulder would summarize the court files for us.
I believe, the offense he was arrested for involved a female, though one soure said 'young female' and another said 'younger female'.
Toth, how are we expected to discuss "Flippy" if we don't know who he is? Is he the guy Colfax wrote about in the two links I posted above? A simple yes or no will do. If you refuse to answer, then what is the point of this thread?
Jayelles
11-03-2003, 05:46 PM
Toth:-
Flippy Esso was a young man. I usually emphasize that he is not a sex offender, he was merely convicted of being a sex offender and the registration is that of a person convicted of the offense, it is not an admission of having committed the offense for which he was covicted. It never is. Registration merely acknowledged the conviction, not the offense.
OK, then what sex offence was he convicted of? Was is an offence against children? Was it for rape? Peeping Tomism? Flashing? Having sex with a not-quite 16 year old?
It would help to know.
Originally posted by Ivy
Toth, how are we expected to discuss "Flippy" if we don't know who he is? Is he the guy Colfax wrote about in the two links I posted above? A simple yes or no will do. If you refuse to answer, then what is the point of this thread? I am not going to identify him any more specifically than Flippy Esso which is the name I've been using for him for some time. Many serious investigators/posters know his first name, a few seem to also know his last name. No one is posting that information. This is with good reason. If you know and live near Boulder you can get us good information and post it. If you don't know, don't ask. I won't reveal his name. He is "flippy esso"
Originally posted by why_nutt
Lou Smit has not even attempted to build a compelling case against him.
the man must have been cleared, at the very least in Smit's opinion. I do not know what Lou Smit has attempted to do or whether Lou Smit considers him to be a viable suspect. I do admit that the passage of time does indicate that such an obvious suspect may well have been cleared, but I do not know. I certainly think he is a better suspect than either of the parents ever were. I would hope that in a case like this the notoriety would force the forensic people to be diligent, but I certainly don't trust the BPD or CBI much.
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Ivy
Toth, how are we expected to discuss "Flippy" if we don't know who he is? Is he the guy Colfax wrote about in the two links I posted above? A simple yes or no will do. If you refuse to answer, then what is the point of this thread?
Can you at least answer Ivy's question here so that we can move on? Read the posted link and inform us. Thanks.
Sabrina
11-03-2003, 07:25 PM
Ofcourse if they had announced that Flippy Esso, not matching the dna was eliminated, they would also have to announce that Patsy, not matching the dna, was also eliminated.
You people just do not get it, do you? There must be something to tie a suspect to the crime scene. There is more physical evidence tying the Ramseys to the scene than anyone else. The DNA is foreign, and there could be a reasonable explanation as to why it is there- such as a playmate or it's from the panty factory.
However, IF the DNA matches someone like Flippy Exon, he would have to explain how it got there because there is no reason for it to be there.
However, if there is not one shred of evidence- handwriting, DNA, a hair-- nothing-- you cannot consider your Exon Flippy as a suspect just because he is a "registered sex offender." And what was his offense??? Having sex with a 16 year old when he was 18? That would put someone on the list. You need to qualify what was the offense and circumstances. He may like little boys for all we know.
Okay, okay,,,, I finally clicked on that stupid Colfax stuff.
Ofcourse thats just a stupid waste of time and I can't stand reading that nonsense anyway and have no idea why you wanted me to read something about a Gerald Elkins written on some cartoon character's tongue.
Toth, if you had clicked the first link and read what Colfax said about Elkins, you would know that it pretty much fits the info you posted about Flippy.
So Elkins is not Flippy, right?
Originally posted by Sabrina
you cannot consider your Exon Flippy as a suspect just because he is a "registered sex offender." He was in the home on a prior occasion for an extended period of time, he is said by a co-worker to have had 'issues' with the 'wealthy class' and he is a known sex offender. It is not merely because he is a sex offender, but one who has a prior connection with the scene of the crime and a prior opportunity to know about the house and the occupants. The Ramseys were always generous to the people they employed but it is possible that if this was some 'sub-contractor' that the employee might have atleast felt he had been cheated.
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 08:42 PM
Toth, your evasiveness is beginning to remind me of Lighthouse.
As Ivy said, had you clicked on the first post, you would have read that this guy, along with others, was taken by John R to their house where Patsy served up sandwiches for lunch. He was part of a working crew on AG's roof. Go back and read that first post. Take a deep breath; you can do it. It is not written on anyone's tongue but you do have to endure the French accent.
Originally posted by Ivy
So Elkins is not Flippy, right? It seems Elkins was some sort of roofer; Flippy Esso painted a basement. I don't think he was a roofer of any sort.
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 10:06 PM
Where can we read more about him so that we might discuss him? No one seems to know anything much about this guy. Where did you get your info?
Maikai
11-03-2003, 10:38 PM
Ivy, I'm impressed that you could bring up that link to Colfax's ramblings. A laborer at Access could be a possibility--the business was expanding on Pearl Street...and then you have the new location for Pasta Jay's. The Dixieland jazz band would have been noticed...going from Access to the Boulderado. Colfax also brought up someone else that supposedly was in jail with him, that had supposedly done work at the Ramsey house.
None of these are Flippy Esso, if he did painting.
The main thing is that one of his coworkers noticed that he had an electronic device underneath his pantleg and recognized it as an electronic monitoring device worn by parolees and the like.
Britt
11-03-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by TLynn
Did Flippy have a passion for pineapple?
:D
All I want to know is why the Ramseys covered for him.
Originally posted by Britt
:D
All I want to know is why the Ramseys covered for him. The Ramseys did not know at the time of the electronic device and were only informed of all this later, after the murder and after a coworker of Flippy Esso came forward and said he was talking about The Wealthy Class alot.
Nehemiah
11-03-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Toth
The main thing is that one of his coworkers noticed that he had an electronic device underneath his pantleg and recognized it as an electronic monitoring device worn by parolees and the like.
Source for all this info?
Britt
11-03-2003, 11:04 PM
But Toth, how did Flipper get Patsy to write the note for him?
Maikai, I'm not an Intruder theorist by a long shot, but I wonder if the workers Colfax rambled on about were investigated, and if not, why not. Same with Flippy, the painter. Did the Ramseys tell investigators--even their own investigators--about any of these men? If not, why not?
This is OT, but I didn't want to start a new thread for it. I have been trying to find info about the 1980 Lindsley trial in which Lee Bibb (Bobb?) Lindsley was acquitted of murdering her husband, a prominent Colorado pediatrician. Ms. Lindsley was defended by Haddon partners, Bryan Morgan and Lee Foreman, who presented a very controversial intruder theory. Anyone know where I can find online information about the Lindsley case? It's interesting that the Ramseys selected attorneys who just happened to have successfully won a case based on an intruder theory. (The Lindsley defense argued that there were two intruders.) I'd like to know if how the defense won the case without evidence to support their intruder claim, and if Ms. Lindsley (and LE) searched for the "real" killers after her acquittal.
why_nutt
11-04-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Toth
The Ramseys did not know at the time of the electronic device and were only informed of all this later, after the murder and after a coworker of Flippy Esso came forward and said he was talking about The Wealthy Class alot.
There is something suspect about this anecdote. The ankle monitor's effectiveness lies in being keyed to the location of the offender's house via a device attached to the offender's phone, with authorities being given notice via the phone line if the offender has wandered beyond a range measured in feet. A person is not supposed to be able to stroll around an area of X square miles while wearing the monitor. The Ramsey house phones were not equipped with the device which monitors the presence of the ankle device and triggers a phone call to police if the signal is lost. So why would a man choose to wear an ankle monitor when he could have run away at any time without police knowing it? And what sort of contractor hires a known convict in the very middle of serving out his sentence?
(Everyone who wants to know who Toth is referring to can read John Ramsey's year 2000 Atlanta transcript, the one currently circulating among forums; D* K* appears near the beginning.)
Maikai
11-04-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Ivy
Maikai, I'm not an Intruder theorist by a long shot, but I wonder if the workers Colfax rambled on about were investigated, and if not, why not.
This is OT, but I didn't want to start a new thread for it. I have been trying to find info about the 1980 Lindsley trial in which Lee Bibb (Bobb?) Lindsley was acquitted of murdering her husband, a prominent Colorado pediatrician. Ms. Lindsley was defended by Haddon partners, Bryan Morgan and Lee Foreman, who presented a very controversial intruder theory. Anyone know where I can find online information about the Lindsley case? It's interesting that the Ramseys selected attorneys who just happened to have successfully won a case based on an intruder theory.
I don't think Colfax was taken seriously by the police.
Not much online about Lee Bobb Lindsley--you'd probably have to go to the Rocky Mountain or Denver Post archives, and pay for articles, since the trial was so long ago. Since it was Arapahoe County, the courthouse would have trial records. Amazingly, no books written about it---of course at that time, we didn't have 24 hour cable shows. Haddon, et al seem to be the lawfirm those with money go to when in trouble---they're representing Kobe now. I see Morgan was an ex-DA in Boulder...so was Bynum. Bynum got the best--which of course PO'd some of the BPD. Kind of like my big brother is going to beat up your brother.
Sorry, Toth...off the subject. Is this guy your interested in listed on the website for Colorado sex offenders?
Afton
11-04-2003, 01:53 AM
my original thought about who killed JBR has not changed...A worker in the house and there were many with the renovation that was being done, is my suspect. And who really knows and can pinpoint all those workers? Roy Black in FL defended a man accused of killing his daughter and it turned out to be the carpet cleaner that the neighbors had hired. Polly Klaas, the man was brazen enough to walk right into the bedroom with girls still awake and the mother sleeping in a bedroom close by...Those are two examples and then take Elizabeth Smart--she was abducted right in front of her sister and he had been a worker in their home as well.
Jayelles
11-04-2003, 04:01 AM
Toth will you PLEASE tell us what was the nature of his sex offence? You can't say someone is a sex offender (or if you are being pedantic that he was on the sex offender register) with the implication that it is significant (in that there was a sexual element to the crime and police should have been looking at relevant sex offenders)....and then dismiss it on the grounds that his presence in the house was more significant than his previous crime.
If he is of more interest than the hundreds of others who were in the Ramsey house prior to the murder BECAUSE he was a sex offender, then his sex offence is significant. Did he get on the register because he had sex with a (just) under age girl? Did he have sex with a (just) under age male? Did he rape an old lady? Or did he target little girls?
If you know then tell us. If you don't then is there any point in having this discussion?
Nehemiah
11-04-2003, 08:53 AM
"(Everyone who wants to know who Toth is referring to can read John Ramsey's year 2000 Atlanta transcript, the one currently circulating among forums; D* K* appears near the beginning.)
Where specificallly is this? I can't find anything but Patsy's portion of the transcripts. Thanks.
My question exactly, Jayelles. Before I wade into other forum looking for references in the transcripts, I'd like to know if it's worth the time. If his offense was anything like that of the neighbor who photographed a slightly underage teenage boy, I'm not interested.
Originally posted by why_nutt
There is something suspect about this anecdote. The ankle monitor's effectiveness lies in being keyed to the location of the offender's house via a device attached to the offender's phone, with authorities being given notice via the phone line if the offender has wandered beyond a range measured in feet. A person is not supposed to be able to stroll around an area of X square miles while wearing the monitor. (Everyone who wants to know who Toth is referring to can read John Ramsey's year 2000 Atlanta transcript, the one currently circulating among forums; D* K* appears near the beginning.)
The device is attached to his ankle but I assumed that it had to be "near" his phone only at night.
Note: He is not 'DK',,he is Flippy Esso. Don't use his real name, don't use his real intials.
Originally posted by Jayelles
Toth will you PLEASE tell us what was the nature of his sex offence? I had hoped that someone in Boulder or atleast in Colorado could find out for us and post the details. Surely there is a good chance that someone on this forum both knows the real name and lives in Colorado?
Jayelles
11-04-2003, 10:28 AM
Ach Toth. You're all over the place on this. How many sex offenders are likely to reside in Boulder?
I can't do this exercise unless I know what the nature of his offence was. If the FACT he's a sex offender matters, then the nature of his sex offence surely matters too?
I once had the privilege of working with Glenn Wilson http://www.iop.kcl.ac.uk/IoP/Departments/Psycholo/Staff/prWilson.shtml and he explained how a sex offender perceives/simulates courtship. He's a very interesting man. A perfvert who is working up to rape may make obscene phone calls or spy on potential victims (peeping tom) - this is his version of courtship. The behaviours folow certain predictable patterns and thus form the backbone of behavioural science/criminal profiling.
If we knew Flippy's background, then we could decided whether he is or is not a viable suspect.
Maikai
11-04-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Jayelles
Ach Toth. You're all over the place on this. How many sex offenders are likely to reside in Boulder?
.
A lot! Boulder is kind of like the statue of liberty---ie: give us your tired, your poor, your neuvo rich techno people, artists, your eccentric & eclectric, your drug abusers, and just plain ol' weirdos and burnouts. It's a mecca for many---always has been. A lot of errrrr different types of people can hang out there, and not raise a lot of suspicion or interest....they just blend in.
There's jobs created by the wealthy-----it's a town of those that have and those that don't.
Nehemiah
11-04-2003, 10:52 AM
Toth, I don't understand why you won't answer these specific questions that we are posing. It's kind of like someone who has dangled candy in front of a child, put it away, and then talks to the child about how good it tastes.
Originally posted by Nehemiah
Toth, I don't understand why you won't answer these specific questions that we are posing. It's kind of like someone who has dangled candy in front of a child, put it away, and then talks to the child about how good it tastes.
There are posters who live in Colorado and can research the exact nature of the offense that was committed and anything else that would be relevant. Let them do the research and post the information.
WhyNut has chosen to post the initials of the individual and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the asterisks were substituted on a character for character basis so now everyone knows the length of his names as well. I had hoped this would not happen. He is Flippy Esso until such time as arrested or indicted or atleast far, far more evidence is developed against him. I've not 'dangled candy'. I've made a serious request of posters who live near Boulder or for other posters who already know of Flippy Esso's identity to gather and collect the information in one thread. Instead all I get are a flurry of posts asking me to reveal the man's identity. I'm not going to do it.
On-edit: Even after everyone was saying Gary Oliva, I said Thomas Aquinas. Even after everyone was saying Nancy Krebs, I said "Callie". I don't see why you can't just accept the use of the moniker "Flippy Esso".
Nehemiah
11-04-2003, 11:44 AM
Where did you get your info? From the Atlanta interviews? If so, where is that posted as I would like to read what was said. I'm not interested in his real name. I just want to read the source and perhaps I can go from there. Thanks.
The Atlanta Transcripts are posted at the Forum of Record and Responsible Posting.
Sabrina
11-04-2003, 12:22 PM
You can look up Colorado Sex offenders very easily on line if you have the person's name. I also have access to Lexis Nexis. If someone wants to send me the name, I will look it up through L/N but I do not have time to play guessing games nor do I have the inclination to wade through crap at the swamp looking for the name.
Jayelles
11-04-2003, 01:11 PM
A search at the Colorado Convicted Sex Offender site does not turn up anything for a Dennis K****. The only person with the initials DK was a David King who committed Lewd/lascivious conduct with a child in 1990. He is currently listed as 'failed to register'.
I looked up lewd/lascivious behaviour and there was an abundance of interpretations. Seemingly it can mean anything from using sexual swear words upwards.
Any chance that ******* changed the first name from David to Dennis and that the number of asterisks in the surname does not correspond directly to the number of letters in the name?
why_nutt
11-04-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
A search at the Colorado Convicted Sex Offender site does not turn up anything for a Dennis K****. The only person with the initials DK was a David King who committed Lewd/lascivious conduct with a child in 1990. He is currently listed as 'failed to register'.
I looked up lewd/lascivious behaviour and there was an abundance of interpretations. Seemingly it can mean anything from using sexual swear words upwards.
Any chance that ******* changed the first name from David to Dennis and that the number of asterisks in the surname does not correspond directly to the number of letters in the name?
I have gone looking for Dennis K and have found someone who fits the profile in a most general way. Of course, we can expect from Toth something less than accuracy, so the "sex offender" charge may be a blind alley. The Dennis K I have found in Boulder is describeable as, as John would have it, "a fairly dysfunctional fellow." But the charges against him are not sex offenses; his problems stemmed from committing domestic violence. He pled not guilty to one such act in March of 1996, he then changed his plea to guilty in October of that year, and he served 20 days in jail.
If this man is the target of John's suspicions, I would say they are not warranted. A man who commits domestic violence is not one to write ransom notes or fantasize about kidnapping anyone other than someone in his intimate circle. Acts of domestic violence take place as a means for someone to take control of their personal environment. The Ramsey house was not this man's house, JonBenet was not his wife; those who assault their spouses are not known to escalate their domestic problems by going out and planning elaborate scenarios involving the children of employers.
Jayelles
11-04-2003, 01:52 PM
Would someone be electronically tagged after serving just 20 days in prison? A short sentence like that is a mere slap on the wrist surely? Here only certain categories of prisoners are tagged and it tends to be when they have been released early from a significant spell of incarceration.
I found this:-
http://www.coloradocure.org/cgi-local/coloradoCureMain.cgi?page=comcoroverview
This lists electronic monitoring under 'Public Safety'.
Maikai...Colfax aside, I find it curious that the Ramseys themselves didn't immediately tell investigators about the workmen they'd had dealings with, including Flippy.
Right away, John told the police he thought it was an inside job, indicating he didn't buy the "small foreign faction" bit. If John thought the perp was someone familiar with the layout of the house and who might have had access to information such as John's bonus, why didn't John tell LE about Flippy, who'd actually worked in the house?
Btw, thanks for the Lindsley information.
why_nutt
11-04-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
Would someone be electronically tagged after serving just 20 days in prison? A short sentence like that is a mere slap on the wrist surely? Here only certain categories of prisoners are tagged and it tends to be when they have been released early from a significant spell of incarceration.
I found this:-
http://www.coloradocure.org/cgi-local/coloradoCureMain.cgi?page=comcoroverview
This lists electronic monitoring under 'Public Safety'.
In addition to the twenty days in jail, he was also put on two years' probation, so that may be a factor.
Jayelles
11-04-2003, 02:10 PM
It seems an extreme measure for something that is potentially among the lower categories of offence? I could be totally wrong. I thought electronic tagging was fairly costly - but a cheaper-than-prison alternative for our government's over-stretched coffers.
why_nutt
11-04-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
It seems an extreme measure for something that is potentially among the lower categories of offence? I could be totally wrong. I thought electronic tagging was fairly costly - but a cheaper-than-prison alternative for our government's over-stretched coffers.
No, electronic monitoring is very cheap. In California, for example, the cost is cited as $10 a day, versus $40 a day to keep a person occupying a bed in jail. In Denver, they have implemented the other California solution to costs; the criminal him- or herself must pay the per-day cost of the monitor!
Nehemiah
11-04-2003, 04:05 PM
You are too cute, Toth. :blowkiss:
Originally posted by Ivy
Maikai...Colfax aside, I find it curious that the Ramseys themselves didn't immediately tell investigators about the workmen they'd had dealings with, including Flippy. The Ramseys did not know anything about the ankle bracelet; a coworker mentioned this AFTER the murder.
Anyway, I'm glad that more information has been develeoped on this. I don't think such monitoring is done for short term sentences, but it might be. I don't know if there is any sort of suspected but uncharged offenses, though I would doubt it.
ajt400
11-04-2003, 05:45 PM
I think a defendan't flight risk and the violence of the crime has something to do with it.
If the court thinks someone will take off, they will issue an ankle bracelet, this may vary from state to state.
Also, a defendant's prior record will probably have alot to do with it too
It might even have been simply a case of a spiteful co-worker since their is no corroborating evidence to support the "talked alot about the wealthy class" allegation.
Toth...
I said, I find it curious that the Ramseys themselves didn't immediately tell investigators about the workmen they'd had dealings with, including Flippy.
You replied, The Ramseys did not know anything about the ankle bracelet; a coworker mentioned this AFTER the murder.
Toth, I wasn't referring to whether the Ramseys knew about an ankle bracelet Flippy might have worn. I was questioning why the Ramseys didn't tell investigators about the workmen (especially Flippy) whom they'd had dealings with before the murder. Why were the Ramseys so quick to point the finger at their friends, and not even mention these strangers they'd had contact with before JonBenet was murdered?
I don't think the Ramseys ever met Flippy Esso. He was someone hired by the subcontractor and they had dealt only with the general contractor
Nehemiah
11-05-2003, 02:45 PM
I totally agree, Ivy. Even if they did deal only with the contractor, you'd think that they would give that information plus informatin on the guys for whom they prepared lunch, per Colfax's writings. I contend that had the Rs allowed themselves to have been questioned by the police in a timely fashion, they could have been "cleared" if possible, and the BPD could have moved on quickly to other suspects.
sissi
11-05-2003, 07:56 PM
I have been "outa da loop" and involved with serious home issues,but just skimming through here it seems odd to me that the identity of a sex offender is kept private. Why? I don't think anonymity should be a privilege of any felon.
JMO IMO
ajt400
11-06-2003, 12:41 AM
It shouldn't be, if he is registered, why the anonymity???
Maikai
11-06-2003, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Ivy
Maikai...Colfax aside, I find it curious that the Ramseys themselves didn't immediately tell investigators about the workmen they'd had dealings with, including Flippy.
Right away, John told the police he thought it was an inside job, indicating he didn't buy the "small foreign faction" bit. If John thought the perp was someone familiar with the layout of the house and who might have had access to information such as John's bonus, why didn't John tell LE about Flippy, who'd actually worked in the house?
Btw, thanks for the Lindsley information.
Ivy......perhaps this guy came up later--as a result of a tip and further investigation by his private investigators. You'd think the private investigator would have obtained a list of contractors that had done work in the house, and then checked with them as to who the subs were. He could have given the police the list of all the people that had worked in the house, but they may not have been investigated.
Blazeboy3
11-06-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Nehemiah
Can you at least answer Ivy's question here so that we can move on? Read the posted link and inform us. Thanks.
IMHO FWIW...it's(the point) is WASTED "ENERGY" IMHO...the point of this thread!!!\
FYI: Boulder Sex Offender Register info:
http://sor.state.co.us/off2/results.asp?sorFirstName=&sorLastName=&sorCity=Boulder&sorZip=&Submit=Submit
Blazeboy3
11-06-2003, 02:40 AM
OK, SO THE RAMSEYS DITCHED THEIR JONBENET WEBSITE... NOW HOW DO YOU PROCEED/FIND THE MONSTER-KILLER OF JONBENET?
http://www.burrelles.com/transcripts/cnbc/rive9703.htm
Renewed campaign by the Ramseys to find the killer of their daughter, JonBenet
Misty
11-06-2003, 09:47 AM
If he was wearing an ankle device, he was probably on a home detention program. As Why_Nutt explained, if the subject strays outside of the range, officers are notified. Here, they are not only allowed but required to keep a job while serving out their sentence. They are given a short period of time to get to the job and then home and are monitored frequently by the community service officers.
Was it home detention (we assume at nights only) because he had been convicted or was he on bail? Was the conviction of a sex offense or merely the original charge?
Please folks,, for just awhile can we limit this to the posters who are in Boulder or atleast in Colorado and have access to the court files?
Verify, but do not post his identity.
What were the original charges?
What was the disposition of that charge?
I really do think that WhyNutt's original post was highly relevant, however, it must also be remembered that this man did not come to light immediately. It was a co-worker who mentioned it and it is my understanding that the co-worker was by no means prompt in doing so. It would seem that this would be a lead someone would have followed, but I just don't know. I don't think the BPD would have bothered with it though.
Toth, no need for all the cloak and dagger. Why don't you cut to the chase and contact Keenan or Smit or Wood, or even the Ramseys themselves, about Flippy? I'm sure any one of them would be delighted to be handed another "suspect" to throw under the bus.
ajt400
11-07-2003, 02:58 PM
Why not contact the BPD, then it would be sure to be ignored....
sissi
11-07-2003, 03:12 PM
I like this one...S-TC
Hair: Blonde
Eyes: Blue
Scars/Marks/Tattoos: Scars on left and right legs.
Sentenced From: Boulder County, Colorado.
Category: Failed to Register
Reported Address:
Aliases/Nicknames: Shawn Thomas Cline
only missing the B...
JMO
http://www.co.boulder.co.us/sheriff/most_wanted/cline.htm
driving while restrained??
JMO
ajt, the DA is in charge of the investigation now, not the BPD.
sissi...How's this? Shawn "Badboy" Thomas Cline. There. I supplied the missing B in S.B.T.C and turned Cline into a viable suspect. lol
sissi
11-07-2003, 03:41 PM
Good Job Ivy :-)
twilight
11-07-2003, 04:17 PM
I'm a little behind here and don't have the time or inclination to read this entire thread...page one was enough...my sides hurt from laughing.
But to give Toth credit, I ask the following questions (that may already have been answered)...
Why did Patsy write the note for Flippy??? or was Patsy Flippy???
Did she paint any of those rooms herself??? with the broken paintbrush???
And, of course, the biggest question of all...was it really SMART to let Flippy into their home???
There does that help you at all Toth? I think they might have been missing your point. Yes? But never fear, Twi caught ya, in almost the first sentence of the first post. And I thought interesting, although perhaps a little dangerous, spin.
sissi
11-07-2003, 05:56 PM
This one is really spooky looking. I wonder if any of these stayed at the "church mission".
http://www.co.boulder.co.us/sheriff/most_wanted/wesch.htm
sissi, he looks spooky, all right. Probably so spooky that JonBenet would have been terrified of him and screamed when she awoke and saw him by her bed. He certainly doesn't look like the kind of intruder JonBenet would snack on pineapple with.
Not all bad people look spooky, sissi. The Green River killer looks as normal as the Ramseys do.
Originally posted by sissi
I like this one...only missing the B...
driving while restrained??
Restrained by the court from exercising the privileges granted by the driver's license; license is not suspended or revoked but court forbids the licensee to drive.
turns out that a "nickname" for him actually is "Bad(censored)".
sissi
11-07-2003, 08:04 PM
Well now Toth,that is interesting! How DID you find this information?
Ivy I believe a stun gun was used,therefore she could not scream.
IMO
sissi, if a stun gun was used, I don't think she'd be able to eat pineapple either.
The Intruder was quite nimble to have carried the dead weight of a stunned 6-year-old, plus a stun gun and a Maglite down those tricky stairs, wasn't he? And he did it without the stairs creaking and waking anyone. He was also able to take the pineapple out of the fridge without alerting Burke, who said he could hear the fridge door open and close from his room whenever someone got a snack. Though JonBenet was unconscious or close to it, the Intruder managed to force pineapple down her slack throat without blocking her windpipe and causing her to die right there on the spot.
Amazing.
Originally posted by sissi
Ivy I believe a stun gun was used,therefore she could not scream. Stun gun use appears to have been rather minimal, perhaps more to satisfy curiosity. If the tape has one of the 'missing' burn marks on it, then she had her mouth taped and would not have been likely to have screamed at the time anyway.
sissi
11-07-2003, 08:52 PM
That is a huge question Ivy, does the pineapple really play into this murder? Why would a killer feed Jonbenet pineapple ,and wait at least a few hours to kill her. Remember ,the pineapple was not in her stomach contents,it was well on it's way toward digestion. It comfortably fits into what one would expect the time of digestion to be ,had she eaten it at the White's and been murdered before 1a.m..
Another idea would be to have a lure person,and if there were a lure person then it would point more toward a "hit",than a murder by a crazed killer acting alone. This could explain a snack before being lured to the basement to meet her killer,or maybe she was lured,given a snack,taken out of the home,killed and returned to that dank basement room. It's difficult to make sense of the time between eating pineapple and her death.
IMO JMO
I think the pineapple is very important, sissi. At autopsy, partially digested pineapple was found in JonBenet's upper intestinal tract, and that means she had probably eaten it a couple of hours or so before she died. John and Patsy claim neither of them gave her pineapple that night after returning from the Whites'. Burke said he didn't remember if JonBenet had eaten pineapple that night.
Apparently, no pineapple was available at the Whites'. If there had been, I'm sure there would be more pro-Ramsey Internet sources than you could shake a stick at proclaiming it. There was pineapple at the Ramseys', and that must have been the pineapple JonBenet ate the night she died. If an Intruder gave her the pineapple, he kept her alive for a couple hours or so afterward right there in the house, before killing her. Why? Why didn't he just take her and run? If he had, he might have obtained the $118,000 ransom. He also might have been able to obtain the money if he'd at least taken her body. It doesn't make sense that he would leave the note AND her body.
I believe the Intruder is a myth. There was no Intruder. There were only four people in the Ramseys' house that night: John, Patsy, Burke and JonBenet, and one of the first three killed the fourth.
ajt400
11-08-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Ivy
ajt, the DA is in charge of the investigation now, not the BPD
It's called a point, Ivy, and just in case you didn't see the one I was making it was that both sides are not willing to open up their minds to suggestions or other suspects. What I don't get is why would a whole crew of people just decide to turn their backs on the true killers of a child just for money or fame or whatever else. Is anything like this in any of their pasts? Has DA Hunter ever backed down on such a "sure" conviction before? Have any of the investigators involved (the ones that actually had been involved in a murder investigation before) ever forgone their vow to uphold justice before?
Also, why would an intruder leave the body and the note inside the house?
I ask you the same of the Ramsey's. If they were so criminally aware to stage not one but two scenarios, why would they screw up so much as to leave her body in the house after writing a ransom note that I am sure they had to take their time, considering the fact that they were trying to alter or disguise the handwriting.
Either way you look at the whole thing, it just doesn't add up.
:dontknow:
Blazeboy3
11-08-2003, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by twilight
I'm a little behind here and don't have the time or inclination to read this entire thread...page one was enough...my sides hurt from laughing.
But to give Toth credit, I ask the following questions (that may already have been answered)...
Why did Patsy write the note for Flippy??? or was Patsy Flippy???
Did she paint any of those rooms herself??? with the broken paintbrush???
And, of course, the biggest question of all...was it really SMART to let Flippy into their home???
There does that help you at all Toth? I think they might have been missing your point. Yes? But never fear, Twi caught ya, in almost the first sentence of the first post. And I thought interesting, although perhaps a little dangerous, spin.
Twilight...in deed you speak!--Love your humor/post...muchly appreciated by me/mine FWIW: And, of course, the biggest question of all...was it really SMART to let Flippy into their home??? NOT==no by me!!! IMHO Patsy was Flippy!!!
Blazeboy3
11-08-2003, 06:12 AM
I'm going to "spill my beans for now-in a nice way!"; I'll be back later...!!!
http://www.co.boulder.co.us/news/press_releases/2003/keenan040703.htm
John and Patricia Ramsey have been the focus of an exhaustive investigation with regard to the murder of their daughter, JonBenet, for more than six years. People charged with a crime are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty in court. Since Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey have not even been charged, much less convicted, they must be presumed innocent and must be treated accordingly.
BUT LIKE HER BOOK (SEE URL BELOW) STATS: THIS IS MUCH BIGGER THAN US(WE!)! ... AS PRINTED/STATED IN HER BOOK!~!
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1999/22cbook.html
DENVER — Jane Gray Stobie, a former employee of Access Graphics, says she has spoken with the ghost of JonBenét Ramsey for the past year and the little girl is saying who killed her.
Stobie worked with JonBenét's father, John Ramsey, at Access Graphics in Boulder from 1990 to 1994. On Wednesday, she announced the release of her new book, "JonBenét's Gift: A Miracle for the Millennium."
The book chronicles the "life and afterlife" of the little girl and casts suspicion on her parents. It also touches on the issue of child abuse. Stobie, who holds a master's degree in business, says she is a "spiritual medium" for the dead.
JonBenét "was looking for someone to transfer information," Stobie said Thursday at her home in Denver.
"Why did they do this to me and leave me all alone?" JonBenét once said, according to a passage in Stobie's book. "I am just a little girl and want to be loved."
Stobie also said JonBenét spends much of her time at Chautauqua Park in Boulder and once led her there, asking her to "listen to the butterflies."
JonBenét's "gift," Stobie says, is the slain child's proof that there is life after death and that it is possible to heal after even such a heinous crime.
Blazeboy3
11-08-2003, 06:20 AM
I found this book VERY HARD TO READ/COMPELLING INFO BEYOND BELIEF...that's why it was so hard to read!!!...
Originally posted by Blazeboy3
DENVER — Jane Gray Stobie, a former employee of Access Graphics, says she has spoken with the ghost of JonBenét Ramsey for the past year and the little girl is saying who killed her. Psychics? I wonder if the nutcases will ever just drift off into obscurity or go after some other obsession.
Nehemiah
11-09-2003, 08:13 AM
Did anyone ever turn up any info on Flippy?
Nutcases? This case has a cast of characters no novelist would dare put in a novel. How man other cases involve child beauty queens, a Santa who carves the names of dead children on a harp, a photographer caught running down the street naked proclaiming he didn't kill the victim, etc. etc.
Don't forget Patsy herself consulted a psychic, much to the disapproval of the conservative Christian community. And she had all kinds of signs and premonitions before JBR's murder, although she didn't recognize them as such at the time. .
Jayelles
11-09-2003, 02:25 PM
I ask you the same of the Ramsey's. If they were so criminally aware to stage not one but two scenarios, why would they screw up so much as to leave her body in the house after writing a ransom note that I am sure they had to take their time, considering the fact that they were trying to alter or disguise the handwriting.
Re the not removing the body - that is not something that I think exonerates the Ramseys.
If there was a tragic accident and JonBenet was fatally injured, there would undoubtedly be a period of panic during which nobody would know what to do. Time would be marching on and they might consider a number of alternatives - including removing the body from the house. Remember there is some evidence to suggest she was put inside the suitcase? Also, regarding the 'stungun' marks - one of the experts suggested they may have been made by snappers? Well, I have a samsonite case and inside it there are silky pockets which attach by snapper. Perhaps she was placed inside the suitcase ready to be removed from the house. Except the snow had started to fall. Tyre tracks in the snow/noise of car engine would be a dead giveaway. It would also be a bit obvious to carry a body out of the house on foot.
So onto Plan B. Make it look like an intruder did it. Except there HAS to be evidence of an intruder. DNA would be best - but how to obtain it? I suppose it's possible that the DNA could have been staged by running JonBenet's fingernails through (say) a shaving brush which had been left by a visitor, and doing the same on her genitals - could this explain the animal hair? Shaving brushes are made from beaver hairs.
The problem with this is that DNA cannot be seen by the naked eye. It's not enough. There has to be evidence of a break-in and above all else - a motive. Hence the staging with the ransom note and the sexiual assault.
sissi
11-09-2003, 02:33 PM
Maybe she was brought back in the suitcase?
Maxi's right,how many nutcases were surrounding this child,if the story were fiction it would be said the author went overboard characterizing the players.
A question to Toth.. Did this person,Flippy,leave Boulder at the time of the murder and return after 6 yrs?
Jayelles, great post. I've always thought it a strong possibility that the Rs had initially planned to remove JonBenet's body from the house and had thought of using the suitcase to do so. I agreed with the those who thought clothing snappers might have made the so-called stun gun marks, but it hadn't occurred to me that the marks might have been made by snappers that were part of the interior of the suitcase. I wonder if investigators checked the suitcase to see if it had snappers...and if it did, whether they tried to determine if the snappers could have made the marks.
Good going, Jayelles. :bigthumb:
Blazeboy3
11-10-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Toth
Psychics? I wonder if the nutcases will ever just drift off into obscurity or go after some other obsession.
"YOU WONDER" oh just tell us what "YOU WISH" ...!!!
Ok...so noted...SAVE ME "I Believe EVERYTHING COMES FROM SOMEWHERE!" ... where or where did this book/info come from?...
W H Y ?
Originally posted by sissi
That is a huge question Ivy, does the pineapple really play into this murder? Why would a killer feed Jonbenet pineapple ,and wait at least a few hours to kill her
Another idea would be to have a lure person, I think it absurd to think someone who was about to do what he did to a little girl would give her a snack first.
I also think it absurd that there would be any sort of 'lure'...whoever did this is not the patient type to use a 'lure' he prefers 'ligature' to 'lure' anyway.
You go take a look at how deeply that ligature is embedded in the tiny neck and then ask yourself is that the work of someone who lets his victim have a snack first.
Blazeboy3
11-10-2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Toth
I think it absurd to think someone who was about to do what he did to a little girl would give her a snack first.
I also think it absurd that there would be any sort of 'lure'...whoever did this is not the patient type to use a 'lure' he prefers 'ligature' to 'lure' anyway.
You go take a look at how deeply that ligature is embedded in the tiny neck and then ask yourself is that the work of someone who lets his victim have a snack first.
Hum... maybe before you ask what you post...one should ask is the person-in-charge(CEO) thinking Straight OR Twisted; as in "twisted or straight thinking!".?
Originally posted by Toth
I think it absurd to think someone who was about to do what he did to a little girl would give her a snack first.
I also think it absurd that there would be any sort of 'lure'...whoever did this is not the patient type to use a 'lure' he prefers 'ligature' to 'lure' anyway.
You go take a look at how deeply that ligature is embedded in the tiny neck and then ask yourself is that the work of someone who lets his victim have a snack first.
Tell that to the Ramseys, Toth. They're the ones who insist an intruder fed JonBenet pineapple a couple hours or so before he killed her.
ajt400
11-10-2003, 01:28 PM
I think they actually just stated that they did not feed JBR the pineapple. Not that the intruder did. Who knows whats up with the pineapple....maybe that id just a red-herring. They must have deduced if we didn't feed JBR the pineapple, the person who took her must have.
Jayelles
11-10-2003, 03:09 PM
Where abouts exactly were the pair of marks on her body? I know there is one mark on her face and a pair on her torso, but does anyone know the exact whereabouts on her torso? I'm not sure actually that the case snapper theory is viable. In my Samsonite case the pockets with snappers are on either side of the interior. That's quite a distance apart really. Unfortunately, the case is in the attic so I can't measure it. I also think my case is a bit bigger than the Ramsey case. I'm guessing it's about three feet wide, so allowing for the curve of the corners, the snappers would probably be about 4 feet apart, JonBenet was only 4 feet tall.
Nedthan Johns
11-10-2003, 03:34 PM
Who the hell is Flippy? and why not DRAG his name through the mud. You say he is a known sexual offender? LOL Toth. I see sexual offenders should be protected!
There was only ONE sexual offender in this case, and it's one of the Ramsey's, plain and simple. The child was MOLESTED per Cyril Whect, the date of the murder and hours perhaps days prior to the crime. It's as simple as that.
ajt400
11-10-2003, 03:59 PM
It's funny how you say their was a sexual offender, it was one of the Ramsey's, but you can't even say which one? Isn't that convenient? Having your theory have 2 suspects, that way you have one to fall back on....
Jayelles
11-10-2003, 04:19 PM
Re Stranger Intruder, I have trouble with motive. Here's why:-
The Ramseys were wealthy and they lived in a big house - most likely (in the intruder's eyes) there would have been an alarm system in operation.
The Ramseys had a lot of friends and they entertained a lot - there could have been a host of people in the house, some might have been light sleepers and/or awake.
How would a stranger know there was a little child in the house? Do people randomly break into houses just to wander about? I think usually there is an incentive - like robbery. There was no evidence of robbery.
The Ramseys had lights on in the house. The house wasn't in total darkness and as it was Christmas night, there would have been more people than normal in the streets - coming from and going to parties.
It makes no sense that this crime was committed by an opportunist.
Barbara
11-10-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by ajt400
It's funny how you say their was a sexual offender, it was one of the Ramsey's, but you can't even say which one? Isn't that convenient? Having your theory have 2 suspects, that way you have one to fall back on....
The issue of "which Ramsey" was the offender/murderer, etc. is what has kept them out of jail for 7 years.
sissi
11-10-2003, 04:44 PM
This is the reason so many think,those that do not believe it a Ramsey,the intruder was someone at the party on the 23rd.
The "throwing under the bus" was more of a fact finding excercise,not malice on the part of the Ramseys.
Who was this Santa who insisted on a party? Was Curralt ever questioned?
Did Jonbenet make a sudden cry for help by dialing 911 and was stopped by Fleet?
The check was to be on the counter,did a household member of the Pughs stop by for this check,let themselves in with a key?
Why did Glenn Myers come in ,uninvited ,over the dog barking?
Why did Simon run through the streets naked screaming he didn't kill Jonbenet?
Why did Wolf arrogantly refuse to cooperate with the police,and why did he and santa deny a relationship?
These are normal questions,an innocent family would have .
After watching the Smart program last night, it seems Boulder isn't the only egotistical PD,for God sakes this man had to take the really solid information elsewhere first. This is exactly what the Ramseys were up against,and sadly the deed was done,they had no hope of getting their child back,instead they had to push for finding a killer while the focus was always on them. There really was NO early investigation,regardless of what Thomas says,I know personally of one solid lead that sat for over a year before being given the good ole bpd cursory glance.
It is now possible to test smaller pieces of biological matter and get a DNA fingerprint. It has also become possible to get a DNA profile from matter which has degraded, or is not fresh. In addition, the tests are faster and the matching easier because there are more and more data banks.
Instead of insisting on new people,everyone should be screaming for those involved in this case to CHECK the developing data banks. Our guy is out there,we just need the system to find him.
IMO JMO
ajt400
11-10-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
Re Stranger Intruder, I have trouble with motive. Here's why:-
The Ramseys were wealthy and they lived in a big house - most likely (in the intruder's eyes) there would have been an alarm system in operation.
The Ramseys had a lot of friends and they entertained a lot - there could have been a host of people in the house, some might have been light sleepers and/or awake.
How would a stranger know there was a little child in the house? Do people randomly break into houses just to wander about? I think usually there is an incentive - like robbery. There was no evidence of robbery.
The Ramseys had lights on in the house. The house wasn't in total darkness and as it was Christmas night, there would have been more people than normal in the streets - coming from and going to parties.
It makes no sense that this crime was committed by an opportunist.
If a person is stalking someone, they will know particular intamate details about them. Everything listed above could be found out by someone who wanted to find them out. This is not that difficult...this was not a crime of opportunity, whoever did this knoew who they were targeting and why...
ajt400
11-10-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Barbara
The issue of "which Ramsey" was the offender/murderer, etc. is what has kept them out of jail for 7 years.
You don't think that it has anything to do with the fact that their isn't enough evidence to convict them? It has to be one or the other,right? Now it's both of them?? That's even more convenient...
ajt400
11-10-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by sissi
This is the reason so many think,those that do not believe it a Ramsey,the intruder was someone at the party on the 23rd.
The "throwing under the bus" was more of a fact finding excercise,not malice on the part of the Ramseys.
Who was this Santa who insisted on a party? Was Curralt ever questioned?
Did Jonbenet make a sudden cry for help by dialing 911 and was stopped by Fleet?
The check was to be on the counter,did a household member of the Pughs stop by for this check,let themselves in with a key?
Why did Glenn Myers come in ,uninvited ,over the dog barking?
Why did Simon run through the streets naked screaming he didn't kill Jonbenet?
Why did Wolf arrogantly refuse to cooperate with the police,and why did he and santa deny a relationship?
These are normal questions,an innocent family would have .
After watching the Smart program last night, it seems Boulder isn't the only egotistical PD,for God sakes this man had to take the really solid information elsewhere first. This is exactly what the Ramseys were up against,and sadly the deed was done,they had no hope of getting their child back,instead they had to push for finding a killer while the focus was always on them. There really was NO early investigation,regardless of what Thomas says,I know personally of one solid lead that sat for over a year before being given the good ole bpd cursory glance.
It is now possible to test smaller pieces of biological matter and get a DNA fingerprint. It has also become possible to get a DNA profile from matter which has degraded, or is not fresh. In addition, the tests are faster and the matching easier because there are more and more data banks.
Instead of insisting on new people,everyone should be screaming for those involved in this case to CHECK the developing data banks. Our guy is out there,we just need the system to find him.
IMO JMO
I do agree that the answer to this case is in the file already....that no one has just really looked at it yet...I don't hold very much regard for Thomas as an investigator. All I can say is I sure hope none of my loved ones ever die in his town. We''' be sure never to find the killer!
The pineapple isn't a red herring. Someone gave JonBenet pineapple a couple of hours before she died. Since none of the Ramseys admit to giving her any, the implication is loud and clear that it must have been an intruder who did, and Smit backs them up. JonBenet wasn't tall enough to have reached the pineapple in the fridge and anyway, her fingerprints were not on the bowl. Yep, must have been an intruder, all right. :rolleyes:
John and Patsy insist that neither of them gave JonBenet pineapple after the family returned from the Whites'. In an interview, Burke said he didn't remember if JonBenet ate pineapple that night. LE assumed he was telling the truth.
Contradicting John and Patsy, who'd said JonBenet was asleep and was carried upstairs when they returned from the Whites', Burke said JonBenet walked upstairs. I think JonBenet walked upstairs, and later, Burke and JonBenet went back downstairs after their parents retired for the night. Then Burke took the pineapple from the fridge for JonBenet, who used her fingers to eat some from the bowl. It sounds innocent enough, but it would connect Burke to something that involved JonBenet a couple of hours before she died. The Ramseys didn't want that, just as they didn't want Burke connected with anything that happened after JonBenet's death, such as the 911 call.
If they'd known that Burke gave JonBenet pineapple and that the pineapple would show up in the autopsy, they wouldn't have lied to keep Burke out of the picture by insisting JonBenet was asleep when the family returned from the Whites' and had to be carried upstairs. John and Patsy would likely have said JonBenet was awake when they got home and wanted pineapple before she went to bed, and that they gave her some, which would also keep Burke out of the picture.
ajt400
11-10-2003, 04:59 PM
So, if they would go to such instances to lie, why not get Burke's story straight before the police arrived? Why would it be so difficult for someone to have been wearing gloves to give her pineapple? So your saying it was either a midget or Burke that gave it to her....that just makes no sense
Imon128
11-10-2003, 05:01 PM
There's a little mess, there, with the pineapple. Defining the actual time JB would have eaten the pineapple first, then how she would have got the pineapple into her digestive tract, and on and on. The pineapple issue needs resolved, IMO.
ajt400
11-10-2003, 05:07 PM
That is a good point, is there a near exact time of death for her anyway? Lots of things about this case need to be resolved
sissi
11-10-2003, 05:35 PM
There is only one way to explain the pineapple if it was part of the crime. It could only have been served by a person very acceptable to Jonbenet. For a moment,put her family aside as they would have no reason to lie about the pineapple,consider who would serve her,who would she expect to sit down with to have a snack and a morning conversation,who wouldn't seem out of place in the home? Either someone she expected,or someone normally there. That would point to Santa,LHP,White,or even Meyer bringing the dog in for a quick goodbye. Can this be expanded to the gardener,the photographer,and others she would not fear? If the pineapple was served to her,only these people could have sat and shared the snack. We really don't know if the pineapple played a part,however we can not consider the pineapple being served and shared with flippy,mcelroy,thomas aquinas,or any of the spooky stranges that have been considered. If the pineapple was served by the perp,the perp was WELL known to her. IMO JMO
As I said in my last post, I don't think John and Patsy knew that Burke had given JonBenet pineapple a couple of hours before she died. If they'd known he had, and that the pineapple would show up in the autopsy, they would have cooked up a different story to tell LE, and they would have made sure to coach Burke about it so he would know what to say to keep himself out of the picture.
I don't think John and Patsy thought to coach Burke to say that JonBenet had been carried to bed. It probably didn't occur to them to, because if it hadn't been for pineapple being found in her digestive tract, LE might not have questioned Burke as to whether JonBenet was awake or asleep when the family returned from the Whites' or asked if he'd seen her eat pineapple.
ajt...a midget? Who said anything about a midget? Sure, an intruder could have worn gloves, but please explain why an intruder would feed JonBenet pineapple in the first place.. Even Toth, the Ramseys' most loyal and ardent supporter here, finds that idea ridiculous.
sissi
11-10-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Ivy
[Bajt...a midget? Who said anything about a midget? Sure, an intruder could have worn gloves, but please explain why an intruder would feed JonBenet pineapple in the first place.. Even Toth, the Ramseys' most loyal and ardent supporter here, finds that idea ridiculous. [/B]
There are many scenarios that would allow for pineapple to be served and each would include only those I mentioned above.
Santa for example,could have promised a trip to the north pole,grabbed a blanket ,a book,a nightie to pack the suitcase. The pineapple points away from a stranger,yet doesn't point to the family. The family could as easily have said she arrived home,had a snack ,prepared for bed and was never seen again.
At least two hours ,at minimum, before she was killed she was fed pineapple,this is difficult to fit into a rage with mommy scene,it rings more of a lure by friend.
IMO
ajt400
11-10-2003, 06:09 PM
You said it, sissi. I wasn't saying it was a midget, I was point out the implausibilty of Burke feeding her pineapple. I do think the pineapple is a red herring....
Why would her parents feed her pineapple, then lie and say they didn't? How would they have the criminal sophistication to know how to stage a scene successfully enough to throuw detectives off tier case and not be tried or arrested for years, but not know that an autopsy is going to show pineapple? That makes no sense....Maybe JBR got the pineapple herself.
sissi
11-10-2003, 06:37 PM
AJT,yes that would be possible as well,however they claim her prints aren't on the bowl. I don't know how independent she was,but it would be possible to slip downstairs grab a snack while knowing her brother and father were nearby fixing a model. This would be different than coming down alone in the middle of the night,she would have felt safe.
JMO
ajt, JonBenet's fingerprints weren't on the pineapple bowl. Did she wear gloves--and also suddenly grow tall enough to reach the pineapple in the fridge? Burke's fingerprints were on the pineapple bowl, along with Patsy's. Even though you find it implausible, Burke could have given JonBenet the pineapple.
Yes, sissi, if John or Patsy had given JonBenet the pineapple, they surely would have included that in their story. They didn't include it in their story because they didn't give her the pineapple, and they didn't know Burke had.
sissi
11-10-2003, 06:50 PM
Okay Ivy,let's say he gave her pineapple,how did he manage this without providing a serving dish or spoon? Could it be the tupperware container upstairs was her serving dish,and someone brought it up to her?
IMO
sissi, I think Burke took the bowl from the fridge, set it on the table, and JonBenet ate the pineapple with her fingers.
Originally posted by Jayelles
I'm not sure actually that the case snapper theory is viable. The only viable theory is stun gun marks! The other set of marks is on the back, the 'missing' stun gun mark is on the duct tape.
Nothing about 'snaps' is relevant.
Stun gun? What stun gun?
The only way to determine if a stun gun made the marks on JonBenet's body would be to examine them to see if they are electrical burns...and the Ramseys oppose exhuming her body to do that. LE hasn't pushed for exhumation because even if the marks turned out to be from a stun gun, it wouldn't accomplish anything toward solving the case, and going against the Ramseys' wishes would make LE appear cruel. Besides, one of the Ramseys could have stunned JonBenet. Proving the marks came from a stun gun wouldn't indicate one of them did, much less which one, but it wouldn't indicate an intruder did either.
The stun gun theory is a waste of time.
sissi
11-10-2003, 07:56 PM
Maybe not a waste of time if what Toth is saying is relevant.
The tape is in custody,it may have the missing mark,and surely it wouldn't be difficult to prove by stunning another piece of duct tape to examine the effect. There were many excupatory findings that the public has not been told,this may be one.
IMO JMO
ajt400
11-10-2003, 08:05 PM
A stun gun would point to an intruder because a parent wouldn't need to subdue a child, other than that it points to premeditation.
Secondly, were JBR's prints not found on the bowl, I thought they were. Why would BR need to lure his sister? When would the pineapple come into play, before or after the sexual molestation? Also, What if they pineapple was eaten before JBR went to bed? Then it would have no relevance, right?
And kids eat with their fingers, they dont care.
You don't have to inject any anesthetic into duct tape in order to conduct experiments with a stun gun.
Imon128
11-10-2003, 08:48 PM
Whah?
sissi
11-10-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Toth
You don't have to inject any anesthetic into duct tape in order to conduct experiments with a stun gun.
HA! this is true:)
sissi, if you hear anything about Keenan and Ko. zapping a strip of tape with a stun gun, be sure to let us know. I hope they don't put the tape on a pig's mouth when they zap it, because enough pigs have suffered already because of the Ramseys.
Speaking of the tape, why would an intruder put a little strip of tape over JonBenet's dead mouth? Obviously it wasn't placed over her mouth when she was alive. There's no saliva on the tape, nor any indication that she'd even tried to move her lips. If she had worked her mouth a little, the short strip of tape would have come right off. The tape was staging. If the DA proves that a stun gun mark is on the tape, the Ramseys would be in deep poop if the DA and her man Smit weren't both confirmed intruder theorists.
ajt...JonBenet's fingerprints were not found on the bowl. Only Burke's and Patsy's were.
What makes you think that if Burke gave JonBenet pineapple that he was luring her? I think that on their way to the basement to play, she wanted some pineapple and he got it out for her...it was as simple as that. I see nothing devious in Burke giving his little sister pineapple.
Yes, kids often eat with their fingers, and as I said in another post, I think JonBenet ate the pineapple with hers. If she ate it before she went to bed, why did John and Patsy insist that she was asleep when they returned from the Whites' and that she'd been carried upstairs to bed?
twilight
11-10-2003, 09:13 PM
Admiting you know when JB ate whatever she ate...possibly pineapple fixes the time of death. And lets say, for the sake of argument, that the pineapple/whatever was eaten 10 minutes before she died...they can figure that sort of stuff out by location in the digestive tract...but for the sake of argument 10 minutes does not allow the Rams to safely tuck in and get to sleep before the event. That is why they deny knowledge of the food consumption. Probably they know she ate whatever she ate very close to the time of her death. If they watched her eat it, they were very close to her at her time of death...not a particularly safe place to be...distance...they crave distance. Denying the food creates a nice space to distance themselves from the crime.
Now, we know who's close to the pineapple...Patsy, Burke (fingerprints) and JB (gut). And we know that JB ate the pineapple close to her death.
What Patsy is actually saying is I wasn't there and neither was Burke. So, is it a coincidence that three people who ate/handled the same substance did so at different times in a very short window of opportunity. I don't think so.
And there was no stun gun. That is a red herring. And to make it swim you need to exhume the body...and they have not, so that fish is dead in the water. No stun gun.
sissi
11-11-2003, 12:06 PM
That's the problem,it wasn't ten minutes it was at least two to four hours between the time she ate the pineapple and the hour she was killed. What could this prove,within the family? Nothing..IMO
ajt400
11-11-2003, 01:47 PM
So why would Burke and JOBR go to the basement to play? That makes so much more sense.
Originally posted by ajt400
So why would Burke and JBR go to the basement to play? Considering the rigors of that day's schedule and the late hour delivering presents, I would say that neither JonBenet nor Burke would have been inclined to wake up or go wandering around that night on their own.
I think it's possible Burke and JonBenet didn't go to the basement. After snacking on pineapple, they might have gone back upstairs to one of their bedrooms. Just because JonBenet's body was found in the basement doesn't mean that's where she died. She might have died in very own bedroom, or in Burke's. Regardless of where in the house JonBenet died, I think her death was unintentional--the result of sibling sex play that went horribly wrong.
Place of death was in the basement.
Toth, you may very well be right, but do you know of any evidence indicating that JonBenet died in the basement?
why_nutt
11-11-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Place of death was in the basement.
Perhaps, perhaps not. It has been said that the last place JonBenet urinated was on the floor outside the windowless room, and that this was an indication she died there, yet no urine stains are visible in close-up photos of the area. Presuming JonBenet died around 1 in the morning, nobody noted the smell of six- to twelve-hour-old urine when in the basement. Lack of photo evidence and lack of odor are supposed to be rock-solid certain evidence of no wet sheets on her bed, so why are these things thrown away as necessary components of bodily waste being shed on carpet in the basement? If we follow the evidence, and if the evidence is supposed to say she was ultimately killed by the blow to the head, then following the evidence would indicate a possibility she was killed in the kitchen, where the Maglite was. It would explain a notably missing element of the crime, an abundance of basement carpet fibers on the front of JonBenet's face, shirt and leggings, fibers which ought to be there if she was rubbed about on the floor in the area for any length of time.
Originally posted by Ivy
Toth, you may very well be right, but do you know of any evidence indicating that JonBenet died in the basement? Cops cut away and took a portion of carpeting with urine stain from basement; this was thought to be the place of death since bladder most likely emptied there and then.
Toth, I remember reading about the urine stain, but I didn't know the police took the stained carpet piece into evidence, or that the stain established for certain that she died there. Sometimes bladders don't empty immediately after death.
Why_nutt, insightful post! I hadn't thought of the kitchen as part of the crime scene, even though the Maglite was found there. And I hadn't considered the lack of basement carpet fibers on JonBenet's body as particularly telling, either.
SisterSocks
11-11-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by twilight
And there was no stun gun. That is a red herring. And to make it swim you need to exhume the body...and they have not, so that fish is dead in the water. No stun gun. [/B]
I disagree Twi, I do believe in the stun gun. The reason being.... No one has come up with a good enough theory to cover those odd abrasions.
why_nutt
11-11-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Cops cut away and took a portion of carpeting with urine stain from basement; this was thought to be the place of death since bladder most likely emptied there and then.
Photos have shown carpet cut from JonBenet's bedroom, and from John Andrew's room, but photos taken by Ramsey investigators well after investigators took forensic evidence away show the carpet outside the basement hallway, and no carpet appears to be missing. At best a picture shows pink stains on the intact carpet there. Your source fails you.
In those other areas the cops took the carpeting and the backing and actually cut out an entire segment of carpeting.
In the basement they took fibers from the carpeting. From the urine stained area.
I don't think they took the backing or cut out an entire segment from the basement.
Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by twilight
Admiting you know when JB ate whatever she ate...possibly pineapple fixes the time of death. And lets say, for the sake of argument, that the pineapple/whatever was eaten 10 minutes before she died...they can figure that sort of stuff out by location in the digestive tract...but for the sake of argument 10 minutes does not allow the Rams to safely tuck in and get to sleep before the event. That is why they deny knowledge of the food consumption. Probably they know she ate whatever she ate very close to the time of her death. If they watched her eat it, they were very close to her at her time of death...not a particularly safe place to be...distance...they crave distance. Denying the food creates a nice space to distance themselves from the crime.
Now, we know who's close to the pineapple...Patsy, Burke (fingerprints) and JB (gut). And we know that JB ate the pineapple close to her death.
What Patsy is actually saying is I wasn't there and neither was Burke. So, is it a coincidence that three people who ate/handled the same substance did so at different times in a very short window of opportunity. I don't think so.
And there was no stun gun. That is a red herring. And to make it swim you need to exhume the body...and they have not, so that fish is dead in the water. No stun gun.
DEAD IS "DEAD?" RIGHT?...DITTO DITTO!!; WHY WON'T THE R'S EXHUME JONBENET'S BODY? ///...is it a LAZARETH-THING?
Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 03:42 AM
FYI.. probably a REPEAT huh
http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm
Patsy would not be the first mother to lose control in such a situation. One of the doctors we consulted cited toileting issues as a textbook example of causing a parental rage. So, in my hypothesis, there was some sort of explosive encounter in the child's bathroom sometime prior to one o'clock in the morning, the time suggested by the digestion rate of the pineapple found in the child's stomach [during the autopsy]. I believe JonBenét was slammed against a hard surface, such as the edge of a tub, inflicting a mortal head wound. She was unconscious, but her heart was still beating. Patsy would not have known that JonBenét was still alive, because the child already appeared to be dead. The massive head trauma would have eventually killed her.
Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 03:48 AM
PINEAPPLE INFO/FYI:
http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa081798.htm
Fleet and Priscilla White were friends of the Ramseys. Fleet was with John Ramsey when he found -- or "found" -- JonBenet's body]
MrsBrady:
pineapple doreen
alienwatcher:
One cop even said that when John carried the body up the stairs, he was holding it like a doll
LfromJ7:
and how does she treat Burke now?
tman:
alien: back up your statement about John Andrew
brother:
i once new a women who abused her son i had no clue when the boy was 16 he killed her she
lived on my street the father must have known and did nothing
red:
what strawberries
doreen:
strawberries found in the stomach
lou:
I think Patsy killed herself when she killed JonBenet
MrsBrady:
pineapple!
mert:
it was pineapple in the stomach
doreen:
they were served at the party they went to
alienwatcher:
It was in the news at one point that friends of John Andrew's when saying to him to cheer him
up that they thought his parents were innocent
BigEasy:
thought it was pineapple
alienwatcher:
in particular patsy,
doreen:
ok pineapple
mert:
pineapple
tman:
no strawberries, folks, just pineapple
alienwatcher:
got visibly upset and stormed off
WhodunitCO:
no pineapple at Whites'
BigEasy:
right Who
doreen:
there were not pineapples in the ramseys fridge
pip:
No, doreen, no pineapple was served at the party - which is why it's important info
Madeline:
White needs to participate in this letter campaign
tman:
pineapple the day before at party. It digests very slowly
MrsBrady:
that's why the bowl cup and spoon are on the evidence list
BigEasy:
right madeline
Shendoh:
Just read the parents' body language. They're in denial and hate each other.
doreen:
then she was awake when she got home
alienwatcher:
yes Shendoh
WhodunitCO:
pineapple was always in Ram frig...JonBenets fav snack
pip:
doreen I read there WAS pineapple in Ramsey's fridge
ergo:
I thought someone said that no pineapple was served at the White's. ?
alienwatcher:
i agree
doreen:
so she came home and ate pineapple
tman:
yes, inconsistencies in PR's statements about putting JB to bed
alienwatcher:
It might be more important the fact that the pineapple was there at all and in what condition
doreen:
then john did not carry her up to bed
pip:
doreen - yea- that's the point!
alienwatcher:
that could lead to clues about the time of death
MrsBrady:
the (excuse me) grapevine says that pineapple was not served at the White's
BigEasy:
yeah thought the pats backed ham for someone day before and had can of open pineapple
BigEasy:
baked.....sorry
alienwatcher:
yuck, canned pineapple
alienwatcher:
pineapple
doreen:
john is lying
pip:
right MrsBrady - PB said that
doreen:
burke heard all
ajt400
11-12-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Blazeboy3
FYI.. probably a REPEAT huh
[url]http://I believe JonBenét was slammed against a hard surface, such as the edge of a tub, inflicting a mortal head wound. She was unconscious, but her heart was still beating. Patsy would not have known that JonBenét was still alive, because the child already appeared to be dead. The massive head trauma would have eventually killed her.
Where is the blood?
Imon128
11-12-2003, 11:15 AM
The head wound didn't break the outer skin, from what we know. The ME didn't discover it until he pulled the skin back from the skull.
ajt400
11-12-2003, 11:18 AM
So then would that have been enough to kill her without the garrote?
Imon128
11-12-2003, 11:32 AM
Very likely. I think JB died, or nearly died, from asphyxiation from another source and the garrotte was just a red herring. The head wound could have come from a fall JB took when she began to be asphyxiated.
ajt400
11-12-2003, 12:39 PM
If there was ashpyxiation from a source other than the garrote, where are the marks on her neck?
Imon128
11-12-2003, 12:48 PM
The asphyxiation I'm thinking of didn't involve any marks on the outer body.
ajt400
11-12-2003, 12:52 PM
Okay, so what are you talking about? Holdiing a pillow over her face? (after she is unconcious?)
Imon128
11-12-2003, 12:55 PM
No. I'm talking about the original asphyxiation which I believe came from a sex act. That caused JB to pass out, fall and hit her head, and it's hard to ascertain what killed her because they happened too close together. Just a thought.
ajt400
11-12-2003, 01:32 PM
Like what? What would they use? You are talking about auto-erotic asphyxiation, right??
The ME noted petechial hemorrhages present on the eyelids and on the neck. Autopsy photos show the neck petechiae directly above and below the cord device. I don't think the cord device (the so-called "garotte") is a red herring.
Here is a link to an autopsy photo showing the petechiae above and below the "garotte." WARNING: The image is quite graphic and may be disturbing to some.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg
I think JonBenet was strangled with the cord device but that the head blow was delivered while she was being strangled, and that the head blow is what killed her. However, I think she was near death from being strangled and would have died even if she hadn't been struck on the head.
What could have made the large triangular abrasion on her neck?
Sorry folks, but I think it is absolutely absurd to think that a six year old girl was engaging in autoerotic asphyxiation or even knew anything about it.
Imon128
11-12-2003, 03:00 PM
No, I don't think the sex act was autoerotic asphyxiation. Also, I think asphyxia would cause petechiae from a cause other than a rope and stick.
ajt400
11-12-2003, 03:15 PM
I don't think she participated in it, but it could have been done to her. I think the thought of her and her brother doing that together is ridiculous.
Okay, Iman like what? You said you she was asphyxiated, with whaat? If not the rope or garrote, what? Something has to do it right?
ajt400
11-12-2003, 03:16 PM
Also, I don't think that the garrote was a staging device, it just doesn't sit wel with me that the R's would stage a blow-up or accident with a botched kidnapping-sexual assault-murder.
ajt, that's what the Ramseys were hoping LE would think...that the Rs would never stage a botched kidnapping/sexual assault/murder (especially one in which the "perp" left a ransom note behind, along with the victim's body). Well, the Rs didn't succeed in fooling LE, but they did succeed in fooling certain other people.
ajt400
11-13-2003, 09:40 AM
Eeeww, that's just disgusting.
Imon, are you suggesting that JonBenet was asphyxiated during oral sex? There is a pattern of injuries in children forced to do oral sex that includes injuries to the ears. I'd think there would be some bruising to the throat and mouth, too. But those are cases of physically forced oral sex. I don't know if the same pattern would be found in a child psychologically coerced.
Another possibility is that JonBenet's neck was compressed in a way that caused a vagal response. That would cause her heart to beat irregularly and faintly, so that she would lose consciousness -- perhaps even appear dead. Wecht writes about that possibility.
Nehemiah
11-13-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Cops cut away and took a portion of carpeting with urine stain from basement; this was thought to be the place of death since bladder most likely emptied there and then.
Could it be that the BPD did this to see if the basement carpet fibers matched those in the garrotte and paint tray?
What is the source for the "stun gun mark" on the duct tape?
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