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Jayelles
11-05-2003, 06:22 AM
I just got my copy of "Mortal Evidence" by Cyril Wecht this morning. I will read the bits of this book that I can stomach (I have a very weak stomach!) and then I shall pass it on to my mother who loves anything to do with post mortems and forensic detection!

It's got a fair sized chapter on the Ramseys case plus a post mortem photo which I've not seen before - one of JonBenet before she was removed to the morgue. The photo gives a fairly clear image of the white blanket and it's different from what I imagined. There are also some marks on her upper arm which look odd and I've never seen any images of that before.

I'm looking forward to reading this book. I like Cyril Wecht's plain speaking. He's very good at explaining things technically - but in simple terms.

Show Me
11-05-2003, 08:53 AM
I'll requested it through my library!

Shylock
11-05-2003, 10:32 AM
The photo sounds interesting, Jay. Fire up your scanner and let's see if we can get Maxi to post it!

:)

ajt400
11-05-2003, 11:10 AM
What was strange about the blanket...please do tell...

Jayelles
11-05-2003, 12:17 PM
The blanket wasn't strange - just different from how I'd imagined it.

ajt400
11-05-2003, 02:11 PM
Okay, how did you imagine it? Was it not wrapped the way you thought it would be? I am sorry, please explain....

Jayelles
11-05-2003, 04:23 PM
No, it was just the blanket itsef. The photo is clear and I had imagined a different kind of blanket. I had imagined a cellular blanket and it's not. It's got ridges on it. This isn't important really and I suppose it's not even particularly interesting :-)

We can't post images here. Her arm is showing and is very dark red apart from a funny shaped light mark. I presume the dark colouring is lividity, but what would cause the white mark? Is that what is called 'blanching'? Is that if her body was pressing against something? The white mark is like a shark's fin. The image clearly shows the garotte . I absolutely HATE these images. Poor baby. I can't bear to imagine what she went through.

Maxi
11-05-2003, 04:43 PM
Jayelles, if you scan the photo and email it to me, I will post it on an external site and link to it here.

Jayelles
11-05-2003, 04:48 PM
OK.

Jayelles
11-05-2003, 04:57 PM
Maxi - I've scanned it but your e-mail addy is disabled. To where should I send it?

I'm going to bed very shortly. Freshly laundered sheets and an excellent DVD are beckoning ... :-)

sissi
11-05-2003, 09:13 PM
What IF Wecht was right? What if Jonbenet was molested three days or so before her murder?
Clearly the police used this information against the Ramseys,once again, determining one of them killed her,however,if Wecht is right,it may have been the biggest clue in the hunt for the killer.
Who had access to that child during those last days,who babysat for her,where was she? in whose home? whose brothers?fathers? could she have been left alone with for even a few moments?
Who then,had to kill her and stage this "scene" to make it look like an abduction by a foreign faction,to protect themselves?

IMO JMO

Ivy
11-05-2003, 09:56 PM
sissi, why would a neighbor, friend, babysitter, or anyone else outside the Ramsey family you suggest may have molested JonBenet, wait several days after molesting her before killing her to keep her quiet? What would make any of them think JonBenet hadn't already spilled the beans--maybe even on Christmas Day-- to her parents and that they had contacted LE, and LE had begun to investigate the claim?

Britt
11-05-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by sissi
What IF Wecht was right? What if Jonbenet was molested three days or so before her murder?
Clearly the police used this information against the Ramseys,once again, determining one of them killed her,however,if Wecht is right,it may have been the biggest clue in the hunt for the killer.
Who had access to that child during those last days,who babysat for her,where was she? in whose home? whose brothers?fathers? could she have been left alone with for even a few moments?
Who then,had to kill her and stage this "scene" to make it look like an abduction by a foreign faction,to protect themselves?
Excellent questions, Sissi! Okay, now we're getting somewhere. :)

As I suggested on another thread, instead of making silly denials of the undeniable fact that JonBenét was abused prior to the night she was killed per overwhelming expert opinion, theorists should use that information to help form their theories.

You are absolutely right that LE should have looked carefully at people very close to the family. Who had access to JB during those last few days? This includes extended family. Of course, they DID look at everyone, but maybe they should have looked more closely at John Andrew and Grandpa Paugh and ??... did they really have airtight alibis?

Here's a wild thought to explain the Ramseys' guilty behavior, evasiveness, inconsistent statements and lies: (not that I want to help intruder theorists, but...) has it ever occurred to intruder theorists that someone other than John or Patsy (i.e. "intruder") was the perp BUT that John and Patsy suspected each other and tried to cover for each other, hence the guilty behavior?

Sabrina
11-05-2003, 10:35 PM
I just got my copy today and thumbed through it.

I am glad Wecht points out the fibers on the duct tape. The fibers that are consistant with Patsy's jacket. How Patsy went on Tv after being confronted by this and explained how she hugged Jonbenet's body.

Only problem is, both the white blanket and the duct tape remained on the basement floor,Patsy.

Wecht does a good job in dispelling the stun gun and DNA, says the same things we have been saying all along. I wonder if he reads here. ;)

sissi
11-05-2003, 11:47 PM
IVY quote: sissi, why would a neighbor, friend, babysitter, or anyone else outside the Ramsey family you suggest may have molested JonBenet, wait several days after molesting her before killing her to keep her quiet?

I really don't know,but will offer a guess(if this was the case).
It seems many ,who have been molested,keep the secret out of fear or embarrassment. If the threat were huge,along the line of killing perhaps another family member if she told,she may keep the secret while in the area of the molestor,but,let it go in the safety of family in Charlevois. He knew that once out of his control she would tell.
This would narrow the range of suspects considerably,leaving only those that Patsy could recall were alone with her for any period of time. I don't suspect a family member,but I have always wondered about the story from the other mom,about the santa visit. Why did no one else know this,not even Burke? Was this such a big secret that she shared it with a stranger rather than with her family? Was it true?

IMO JMO

Maxi
11-06-2003, 12:33 AM
Hmm...don't know why my email is disabled. Anyway, it's maxi53@hotmail.com.

Ivy
11-06-2003, 12:55 AM
sissi, you're right that kids don't always tell their parents they were molested, and this would especially hold true if the molester threatened the child if she ever told. But that doesn't address why the molester would break into the child's home several days after he molested her, and kill her, because for all he knew, the child might have ALREADY told on him, and her parents had informed the police.

As for the "Santa visit" story, if it's true, JonBenet may have been referring to a second Christmas celebration the Ramseys might have been planning to hold in Charlevoix--a celebration JonBenet had been told by her parents, or simply presumed, wherein a Santa would pay a visit, as Santa Bill McReynolds had done at the other celebration.

Why do you consider friends and neighbors of the Ramseys any more capable of having molested and killed JonBenet than the Ramseys themselves? What exalts the Ramseys above all others in your eyes and makes them above suspicion in the death of JonBenet, regardless of the fact that there is no evidence of an intruder and many indications that the Ramseys themselves were involved?

ajt400
11-06-2003, 01:34 AM
The only conclusion I have been able to reach is that in some ways the fingers point to the R's, but I don't think there is enough there to actually prove they did it. Lots of the questions still remain unanswered, I don't know how to explain it.

As far as why would the molester mess w/her, then leave her alone for three days? Well, if the abuse was chronic I would think it probably happened more than once. She was 6 yrs old, she might not have even known that it was wrong to be touched. I didn't, until I was 13. (And this was by a close family friend) Also, the threat of telling a family member would be too great, most molesters use that ruse.

Maxi
11-06-2003, 10:07 AM
Here's the url for Jayelles pic. I left it big so you could scroll around to see the detail.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/maxiyorkie/jbrwechtbook.jpeg

tipper
11-06-2003, 10:42 AM
So what is the white thing we are seeing since the blanket remained downstairs? There's a seam visible and it appears to be a loose garment of some kind. A turtleneck would cover her arm unless she was half out of it.

helix
11-06-2003, 11:40 AM
I believe the white is her shirt...

why_nutt
11-06-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by tipper
So what is the white thing we are seeing since the blanket remained downstairs? There's a seam visible and it appears to be a loose garment of some kind. A turtleneck would cover her arm unless she was half out of it.

I think the white object is JonBenet's shirt, which was not a turtleneck but should have been over her arm nonetheless. Another shot from that same photo session is this:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jbronrug.jpg

You can see the shirt clearly, you can see a portion of the carpet in the upper left corner, and the ligature cord portion attached to the handle dangles off to the left.

It certainly is question-provoking as to why we can see JonBenet's arm and its lividity and blanched area. More intriguing is why her arm is not over her head as has been described.

Edited to add: You can also see the blue hair tie in the Wecht photo. It is much longer than I expected it to be and appears to be knotted into two loops. I wonder whether, as he preserved the knots on the ligature, Meyer also preserved the knot on the hair tie? It would not be enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt, but I could see BPD holding close to their vests the knowledge that the knot in the hair tie was the same as any one of the knots on the ligature or wrist restraint, especially the similarly-double-looped knot of the wrist cord.

helix
11-06-2003, 11:51 AM
Is it possible that we are looking at her back or side here?

Jayelles
11-06-2003, 11:58 AM
You are right Helix - it's not her arm, it's her back. The shirt has ridden up exposing her back. So what could have caused the yellow/white marks in the lividity? Is that caused by her lying on something?

why_nutt
11-06-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by helix
Is it possible that we are looking at her back or side here?

Yes, absolutely. The Wecht photo is of JonBenet after her body has been rolled over onto her belly. The photo I linked to is the same thing, of JonBenet rolled over.

why_nutt
11-06-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
You are right Helix - it's not her arm, it's her back. The shirt has ridden up exposing her back. So what could have caused the yellow/white marks in the lividity? Is that caused by her lying on something?

The question stands as to why her left arm is not raised in the photo.

helix
11-06-2003, 12:08 PM
I have seen other photos of her back, and the white marks. I assume they are from her lying on top of her "bunched up" shirt, and white blanket for such a long period of time.

lannie
11-06-2003, 12:15 PM
Oh my, that picture really brings her death home, how could someone of done this?
That mark looks just like it could of been made by that pot holder loom , I remember steping on one when I was little & it jumped up & back just like a rake will if you step on it ,made that same kind of mark on the top of my foot & it hurt like crazy .We did make a lot of pot holders in my day , & rugs all from that tiny loom ,those metal teeth can really dig in to your skin .Please what do you think ,I would love to see those tiny ties in her hair ,I do know her room was scattered with loops from the loom .how sad something so simple that enables a little girl (I just can't call her that child )to fill a sence of acomplishment is part of this crime.

ajt400
11-06-2003, 12:21 PM
Those pictures are so awful....it breaks my heart to see them. Poor little baby.

:( :(

Jayelles
11-06-2003, 12:27 PM
The picture that WN postd is the one that grips my stomach most. The swell of her little cheek reminds me of when I go in to kiss my own children at night.

Eagle1
11-06-2003, 05:46 PM
Does that sore on her jaw look too big to be a cigarette burn? Could it be from a cigar? Looks like it was scabbed over before she was killed. Somebody was really sadistic. So much so that the parents may fear him?

Was it something that happened on the 23rd, reason she was so upset, crying, didn't feel pretty, and tried to call 911? And the parents didn't even pay any attention?

Editing to add that's a significant example of their letting intruders do whatever they wanted to the Ramsey children.
Why were they so desperate for overbearing friendships? Even Susan Stine made decisions for them, got rid of police, etc.

tipper
11-06-2003, 05:53 PM
And nobody else at the party noticed it, and it didn't show up in any photographs, and nobody at the Whites saw it either.

Maxi
11-06-2003, 09:28 PM
I have read of a similar mark from a partial hanging.

Nehemiah
11-06-2003, 11:01 PM
What do you mean, Maxi?

Interesting that you would say "hanging" because John Walsh's words about "John cut her down" have always stuck in my mind.

ajt400
11-06-2003, 11:05 PM
When did JR make the "cut her down" comment? I don't remember ever hearing that....

tipper
11-06-2003, 11:15 PM
I think John Walsh made it on LKL

ajt400
11-06-2003, 11:20 PM
And no investigator has seen the conflicting remarks? I clearly remember him saying he pulled the tape off her mouth and then carried her upstairs.....

Nehemiah
11-06-2003, 11:42 PM
John Walsh, not John Ramsey, said that.

Shylock
11-07-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by Nehemiah
John Walsh, not John Ramsey, said that. Yes it was John Walsh on LKL. I think Walsh is too busy with all the little details of his TV show to get all the little details of the case right.

Blazeboy3
11-10-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
Here's the url for Jayelles pic. I left it big so you could scroll around to see the detail.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/maxiyorkie/jbrwechtbook.jpeg

MAXI: THANKS FOR THE PIC/URL...COMPELLING IMHO...

Imon128
11-10-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by why_nutt
The question stands as to why her left arm is not raised in the photo.

why-nutt, it might be because by the time the coroner got there, the rigor mortis had begun to (or was gone) leave JB's body and when the coroner turned her over, he might have just left the arm down? Just guessing.

Interesting photo from Wecht's book. Thanks guys, for the link.

WhiteWolf
11-10-2003, 02:51 PM
Maybe JonBenet's left arm is under her head and hair? Her hair sure looks messy and matted.

lannie
11-11-2003, 01:44 PM
I still think Ratsy was trying to lighten her hair that night, & another fight inslued .Could this be part of Toilet Rage!

ajt400
11-11-2003, 02:44 PM
That just doesn't even make sense!

lannie
11-11-2003, 05:07 PM
What don't you understand ,that Ratsy was attempting to lighten or BLEACH J.B.'s hair ,befor the big so called trip & they got into a fight, remember one of the dectives reported they smelled strong oders of chemicials in the bathroom adjacen to J.B. Room

ajt400
11-11-2003, 07:10 PM
So why would a child who is beeing abused just up and begin to fight with her mother? And how do you know PR wasn't dying her hair? Has anyone found a dye box that was blond? Rest assured, if the dying was done that night, there would have been a box, gloves, chemical containers in the trash in JBR's bedroom too. Also, why were there never ANY photos of JonBenet with roots? I dye my hair and have for 13 years now, you don't smell chemicals after it has been washed out....you smell it during, but home dye jobs don't linger. So why didn't Patsy just kill her then and there? Why wait until the wee hours of the morning? To give her time to concoct a master plan?

That is why that makes no sense to me.

lannie
11-12-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
So why would a child who is beeing abused just up and begin to fight with her mother?
(1)She is starting to relize just what abuse is all about, remember JB him self said JB & Ratsy had a fight over what JB was wearing that night.She also was reported to have kicked her mother at a photo shot.


And how do you know PR wasn't dying her hair?

(2) Because she was not the one found with 3 pony tails ,as if the hair was seperated to exspose the roots.hair all mated up as if it had been wet

Has anyone found a dye box that was blond? Rest assured, if the dying was done that night, there would have been a box, gloves, chemical containers

(3)There may of been ,but it may of not been taken as evidence,men do not think of such things .

in the trash in JBR's bedroom too.
(4) WHY.
Also, why were there never ANY photos of JonBenet with roots?

(5)Did you not see the photo ,there were plenty of dark roots showing.



I dye my hair and have for 13 years now, you don't smell chemicals
(6)you do so ,especialy in a closed house as theirs was in the middle of winter.

after it has been washed out....you smell it during, but home dye jobs don't linger. So why didn't Patsy just kill her then and there?
(7)You said it ,you tell me.


Why wait until the wee hours of the morning? To give her time

to concoct a master plan?

(8)Who said she was killed in the wee houres of the morning, even the parents put the correct date on the JB's headstoneit reads 12-25 96 .

That is why that makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense because you do not want to see the truth !!

lannie
11-12-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
So why would a child who is beeing abused just up and begin to fight with her mother?
(1)She is starting to relize just what abuse is all about, remember JB him self said JB & Ratsy had a fight over what JB was wearing that night.She also was reported to have kicked her mother at a photo shot.


And how do you know PR wasn't dying her hair?

(2) Because she was not the one found with 3 pony tails ,as if the hair was seperated to exspose the roots.hair all mated up as if it had been wet

Has anyone found a dye box that was blond? Rest assured, if the dying was done that night, there would have been a box, gloves, chemical containers

(3)There may of been ,but it may of not been taken as evidence,men do not think of such things .

in the trash in JBR's bedroom too.
(4) WHY.
Also, why were there never ANY photos of JonBenet with roots?

(5)Did you not see the photo ,there were plenty of dark roots showing.



I dye my hair and have for 13 years now, you don't smell chemicals
(6)you do so ,especialy in a closed house as theirs was in the middle of winter.

after it has been washed out....you smell it during, but home dye jobs don't linger. So why didn't Patsy just kill her then and there?
(7)You said it ,you tell me.


Why wait until the wee hours of the morning? To give her time

to concoct a master plan?

(8)Who said she was killed in the wee houres of the morning, even the parents put the correct date on the JB's headstoneit reads 12-25 96 .

That is why that makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense because you do not want to see the truth !!

lannie
11-12-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
So why would a child who is beeing abused just up and begin to fight with her mother?
(1)She is starting to relize just what abuse is all about, remember JB him self said JB & Ratsy had a fight over what JB was wearing that night.She also was reported to have kicked her mother at a photo shot.


And how do you know PR wasn't dying her hair?

(2) Because she was not the one found with 3 pony tails ,as if the hair was seperated to exspose the roots.hair all mated up as if it had been wet

Has anyone found a dye box that was blond? Rest assured, if the dying was done that night, there would have been a box, gloves, chemical containers

(3)There may of been ,but it may of not been taken as evidence,men do not think of such things .

in the trash in JBR's bedroom too.
(4) WHY.
Also, why were there never ANY photos of JonBenet with roots?

(5)Did you not see the photo ,there were plenty of dark roots showing.



I dye my hair and have for 13 years now, you don't smell chemicals
(6)you do so ,especialy in a closed house as theirs was in the middle of winter.

after it has been washed out....you smell it during, but home dye jobs don't linger. So why didn't Patsy just kill her then and there?
(7)You said it ,you tell me.


Why wait until the wee hours of the morning? To give her time

to concoct a master plan?

(8)Who said she was killed in the wee houres of the morning, even the parents put the correct date on the JB's headstoneit reads 12-25 96 .

That is why that makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense because you do not want to see the truth !!

Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by Nehemiah
What do you mean, Maxi?

Interesting that you would say "hanging" because John Walsh's words about "John cut her down" have always stuck in my mind.

I do remember...don't know when...but recently...Yup: I remember JWalsh stating on LKL that " he(the father-JOHN) was alllowed to cut her(JonBenet) down...???...this is what I remember???!!!???...so now what???"...I even remember emailing JWalsh and they responded (JWALSH assocs) that they had done 4 episoides but none were available to the public...please help me understand..???!!!

Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by lannie
It makes no sense because you do not want to see the truth !! [[

http://www.hwt.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5633323^1702,00.html

JonBenet DNA found 2yrs later... From correspondents in Colorado

A NEWLY released court document shows a DNA sample was discovered nearly two years after JonBenet Ramsey's slaying.

The document, released this week, is a 192-page transcript of Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner's deposition in a civil case involving the six-year-old girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey.
The sample was discovered sometime after September 1998, when a Boulder County grand jury convened to investigate the December 1996 slaying.

It is unclear where the DNA was discovered, but Beckner said it did not come from JonBenet's body or clothing, where previously disclosed DNA was found.

When asked today whether the DNA had been matched to anyone, Beckner declined to comment, citing his department's policy of not speaking publicly about the case.









The deposition was taken in Boulder in November 2001 by Atlanta attorney L Lin Wood.

Wood represents the Ramseys in a multimillion-dollar libel suit brought by Robert Christian Wolf, a former Boulder journalist whom the Ramseys identified as a suspect in their book, "The Death of Innocence".

Former prosecutor Michael Kane, who ran the 13-month grand jury investigation that ended without an indictment, declined to discuss the case.

"It's a past lifetime for me," he said from his Pennsylvania home.

JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her parents' home on December 26, 1996.

Unmatched DNA found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and inside her underwear has long stumped detectives.

That genetic material does not match that of family members including her parents, whom police had said were under suspicion in their daughter's death.

The Ramseys, who have maintained their innocence, have never been charged

Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Blazeboy3
[[

http://www.hwt.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5633323^1702,00.html

JonBenet DNA found 2yrs later... From correspondents in Colorado

A NEWLY released court document shows a DNA sample was discovered nearly two years after JonBenet Ramsey's slaying.

The document, released this week, is a 192-page transcript of Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner's deposition in a civil case involving the six-year-old girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey.
The sample was discovered sometime after September 1998, when a Boulder County grand jury convened to investigate the December 1996 slaying.

It is unclear where the DNA was discovered, but Beckner said it did not come from JonBenet's body or clothing, where previously disclosed DNA was found.

When asked today whether the DNA had been matched to anyone, Beckner declined to comment, citing his department's policy of not speaking publicly about the case.









The deposition was taken in Boulder in November 2001 by Atlanta attorney L Lin Wood.

Wood represents the Ramseys in a multimillion-dollar libel suit brought by Robert Christian Wolf, a former Boulder journalist whom the Ramseys identified as a suspect in their book, "The Death of Innocence".

Former prosecutor Michael Kane, who ran the 13-month grand jury investigation that ended without an indictment, declined to discuss the case.

"It's a past lifetime for me," he said from his Pennsylvania home.

JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her parents' home on December 26, 1996.

Unmatched DNA found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and inside her underwear has long stumped detectives.

That genetic material does not match that of family members including her parents, whom police had said were under suspicion in their daughter's death.

The Ramseys, who have maintained their innocence, have never been charged

:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: OK...HERE'S A MAJOR QUESTION ...?...: CAN "MONEY BUY FREEDOM/LOVE?"...Yes/No/ Maybe Sometimes???...??? ...NO!!! BUT MONEY CAN BUY THE ELITE/BEST COUNCIL in any court of law...as we heard today:Texas(Galvaston Billionaire) NOT GUILTY...": let's us all take NOTE!!!

Blazeboy3
11-12-2003, 06:30 AM
WHAT'S WRONG W/THIS STORY/PICTURE?:NOT GUILTY;Admits killing/dismembering neighbor...???

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=54&u_sid=914301

Millionaire suspect found not guilty of murder

GALVESTON, Texas (AP) - Eccentric New York millionaire Robert Durst, who said he accidentally killed a hot-tempered neighbor in self-defense and then dismembered the body in a panic, was found innocent Tuesday of murder.


Robert Durst
Jurors deliberated over five days, following nearly six weeks of testimony, before deciding that the real estate heir did not murder 71-year-old Morris Black, who lived across the hall from him in a low-rent apartment building.

Durst, 60, who is under suspicion in two other killings and who posed for a time as a mute woman, testified in his own defense for nearly four days. He insisted that Black was shot accidentally during a struggle over a gun, and said he used two saws and an ax to cut up the body. The victim's head has never been found.

Durst appeared stunned when he heard the verdict from state District Judge Susan Criss, standing with his mouth slightly open and his eyes filling with tears. He hugged his attorneys afterward, saying: "Thank you so much."

After the killing in late September 2001, Durst was a fugitive for six weeks until he was caught in Pennsylvania when he tried to shoplift a $5 sandwich even though he had $500 in his pocket.

At defense attorneys' request, jurors considered only a murder charge. They could have asked that jurors consider a lesser charge, such as manslaughter, in addition to murder, but opted for an all-or-nothing strategy.

If he had been convicted, Durst could have been sentenced to five to 99 years in prison and been fined up to $10,000.

Prosecutors called Durst a calculating, cold-blooded killer who shot Black to steal his identity. They said all his actions afterward, including cutting up the body and twice fleeing Galveston, were part of an elaborate plan to hide his guilt.

But defense attorneys contended Black was shot accidentally while the two men struggled for a gun after Durst found his neighbor illegally in his apartment. The defense said prosecutors failed to show jurors any motive for the killing or disprove self-defense.

"Whatever (Durst) did after Morris Black was dead cannot change how Morris Black died," defense attorney Dick DeGuerin said in his closing statement. "You can't convict Bob Durst simply because of that."

District Attorney Kurt Sistrunk said Durst cut up Black's body without hesitation, meticulously cleaned the crime scene, reserved a flight to leave the area and dumped the body but later returned to retrieve the head because it could identify his victim.

"Is it well planned and calculated? You bet it is," Sistrunk said.

Durst moved to Galveston in November 2000 disguised as a woman to escape scrutiny in New York after an investigation was reopened into the 1982 disappearance of his first wife, Kathleen. He used the name Dorothy Ciner, a childhood friend.

After he jumped bail in Black's killing, Galveston authorities learned he was wanted for questioning in his first wife's disappearance and in the Christmas Eve 2000 shooting death in Los Angeles of a friend, writer Susan Berman, who was set to be questioned about his missing wife.

He met Black while wearing his disguise but later dropped the masquerade and they became friends.

Durst's attorneys said the friendship soured because of the elderly man's increasingly aggressive behavior. Durst and other witnesses testified Black often got into fights and arguments.

Neighbors "could hear Morris Black two blocks down the road when he was in his rages," said Debra Monogan, who once lived upstairs from Black in South Carolina.

Prosecutors said Black was abrasive but not violent.

Durst testified that he found Black in his apartment on Sept. 28, 2001, and that Black armed himself with a gun Durst had hidden. During a struggle, the weapon fired, hitting Black in the face, he said.

Durst testified he did not recall details about dismembering the body, but when pressed by a prosecutor he said he remembered "a nightmare with blood everywhere."

"I remember like I was looking down on something and I was swimming in blood and I kept spitting up and spitting up and I don't know what is real and I don't know what is not real," Durst said.

He said he preferred not to use the term "murder" to describe Black's death.

"I like dying better. Killed implies like I killed him. I did not kill him," Durst said.
:"
"It was self-defense and an accident," he said"

Ok...I'm off to get my BIFOCULS-IN MY GLASSES/...???hello?what's missing in this picture...???

ajt400
11-12-2003, 11:51 AM
Yes Blaze, I totally agree with you on this one. I was surprised that they found him not guilty. How could they? If the man accidently killed the guy did he accidently dismember him too? Most people could not do that? If it was an accident, why not call the cops? I believe this guy has got tons of other skeletons in his closet.......

ajt400
11-12-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by lannie
It makes no sense because you do not want to see the truth !!

No, it makes no sense because it makes no sense. And, no, I do not smell chemicals in my room or house when I dye my hair! And I don't open the windows, either. Once you wash the dye out and put the conditioner in your hair, you cannot smell the chemicals anymore. Go buy some hair dye, see for yourself. (I use blond as well)

Also, I would rather go by what the coroner said about the time of death, not what the R's put on the headstone. What pictures do you speak of with roots?

And, look at the color of her eyebrows...why are they not dark as well?

<NOTE: Dyeing eyebrows is more common now, but 8 years ago, people were told not to do it unless in a salon by a prfessional and the risk of blindness was jst as great.

Oh, and "Men do not think like that" Um, they were cops detectives, if they smelled chemicals, you would think they would want to know why the house reeked of chemicals....right?

lannie
11-13-2003, 10:43 AM
AJT400, I gave you 8 replies to your RANT, you only responded to 4 .
(1) If the dye was pored down the sink or tub,,It could smell strong
for a long ,long time ,from the looks of her hair from the photo from Dr .Cyrill Wecht's book it looks like the dye never was applied to her dark roots.This is the thread we are in look at the links that have been so kindly given to us in this thread ,are you SURE you are not a naturial Blonde ?? (no offence to other naturial blondes out there )
(2)Why would you go buy what the coroner said,
are you saying the Ram's LIED??
(3)Children often have light or sandy colored eyebrows ,everyone knowes Ratsy paid to have J.B.'s hair bleached & colored .
(4)They did make note of it in there reports ,that is how we know of the odor,are you now trying to say there was no odor & there reports were wrong ,LOL,maybe the chemicals disapated before they could be taken in as evidence,yes they,the boxes , could of been thrown out with the trash,a lot of things dissapered from that house, thanks to aunt Spam.

why_nutt
11-13-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
I smell the dye in my hair for at least one or two washes each time. I also smell it in the room, tho less so than on my hair. I would think the medical examiner would have mentioned an odd smell to JonBenet's hair. I do not think Patsy dyed or lightened JonBenet's hair that night.

Several people who knew the Ramseys reported that Patsy lightened JonBenet's hair. I don't think there is much question about it.

I have this question on the dyeing issue. Patsy has said that she dyed her hair on Christmas day. If she had in fact done this, then the color of her hair in the Christmas morning photo and perhaps the photos from the 23rd, should be noticeably different from the color of her hair as it appeared on the CNN appearance of January 1st, is that right? Does anyone who colors their hair see a difference in Patsy's hair color that would give credibility to her claim of Christmas-day coloring?

Floating this theory: If some sort of hairdye conflict arose on the evening of the 25th as part of a general effort on Patsy's part to make JonBenet a perfect little doll for Stewart Long to admire, as Patsy wanted to be admired herself, then could Patsy's story of dying her own hair be a cover story to explain the smell of dye chemicals? I have found sites which offer brush-in color which does not appear to need showering to set, but if my understanding of these products is incorrect and they do need water, then Patsy would have had to use a bathroom other than her own to color her hair (given the broken state of her shower facilities). The likely candidates would be JonBenet's bathroom and John Andrew's room where the bathroom showed evidence of someone using it recently. And while officers have not explicitly noted the smell of hair chemistry, they also did not note the smell of urine in the basement where JonBenet supposedly shed it before death. So, as does happen sometimes, maybe we have people present whose noses do not work well.

Maxi
11-13-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Nehemiah
What do you mean, Maxi?

Interesting that you would say "hanging" because John Walsh's words about "John cut her down" have always stuck in my mind.

Sorry, Nehemiah, I just saw your question. The medicial examiner who did the Tate autopsies described a similar mark on one of the victims who was briefly hung with a rope thrown over the rafters. It was a mark from the rope.

Maxi
11-13-2003, 11:45 AM
I smell the dye in my hair for at least one or two washes each time. I also smell it in the room, tho less so than on my hair. I would think the medical examiner would have mentioned an odd smell to JonBenet's hair. I do not think Patsy dyed or lightened JonBenet's hair that night.

Several people who knew the Ramseys reported that Patsy lightened JonBenet's hair. I don't think there is much question about it.

Blazeboy3
11-14-2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
Hi Blaze!! What do you not agree with the fact that hair dye doesn't smell like a dead body? Or that Patsy didn't dye JBR's hair that night?

HEE HEE...You're TOO "funny!" I do not know what a "dead body smells like but I don't want to either!" ... don't know about hair dye smell and dead body smell being same... but don't want to know... IMHO "PATSY DID WHAT 'SHE BELIEVED WAS THE BEST THING TO DO!' ... FWIW I DO KNOW WHAT HAIR DYE SMELLS LIKE...DONE IT 'FEW TIMES" on kids(teenagers and myself45yrold!)!... no questions asked!... --- intinct?! ... what does it matter?

ajt400
12-01-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Britt
You say that like it's a good thing... lol.

No amount of facts, evidence and information, not to mention logic, common sense and the laws of physics can prompt a RamseySupporter to theorize beyond the "intruder." If it doesn't fit, it doesn't exist. :crazy:

What else do I need to theorize? That is the problem with this case, too many have thrown their own theories in with everyone elses!

FYI, I used to think they were guilty, so the prompting came from another side. And, no, besides some harder evidence, nothing you have can make me change my mind back. Also, I don't consider myself a R's supporter. Just because I believe that there was an intruder (or the possibilty) does not mean I am sleeping with the R's, or getting paid off.

ajt400
12-04-2003, 05:04 PM
It simply means you haven't got enough to convict. Don't get mad at me because of that..........

Blazeboy3
12-06-2003, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
What else do I need to theorize? That is the problem with this case, too many have thrown their own theories in with everyone elses!

FYI, I used to think they were guilty, so the prompting came from another side. And, no, besides some harder evidence, nothing you have can make me change my mind back. Also, I don't consider myself a R's supporter. Just because I believe that there was an intruder (or the possibilty) does not mean I am sleeping with the R's, or getting paid off.

Hey...I don't get mad at anyone/anything...just try to walk in others' shoes......

Ok...so talk to me...: what compells you in your thinking/change-of thought that "an absolute THOUGHT?" as the R's are innocent? ...??? sleeping w/the enemy maybe?!...? IMHO... I'm lost/confused in where you were/are going with this post... IMHO I would go w/your first intuition/thought (you thought-believed the R's were GUILTY...you should trust/stand by it--this thought!!!...FWIW...just IMHO...!!!???

...NONSENSE...you're above post:

It simply means you haven't got enough to convict. Don't get mad at me because of that..........

TOTAL "NONSENSE/GARBAGE!!!"IMHO...it will come to pass... there're will be enought in due time...IMHO!!!
~~~:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow::bigthumb:

ajt400
12-08-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Blazeboy3
Ok...so talk to me...: what compells you in your thinking/change-of thought that "an absolute THOUGHT?" as the R's are innocent? ...??? sleeping w/the enemy maybe?!...? IMHO... I'm lost/confused in where you were/are going with this post... IMHO I would go w/your first intuition/thought (you thought-believed the R's were GUILTY...you should trust/stand by it--this thought!!!...FWIW...just IMHO...!!!???

TOTAL "NONSENSE/GARBAGE!!!"IMHO...it will come to pass... there're will be enought in due time...IMHO!!!
~~~:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow::bigthumb:

When did I say they were innocent? You know I am on the fence here. I sometimes think maybe they could have, maybe they couldn't have. The point is there is not enough evidence EITHER WAY to make me satisfied that the conclusion has been met.

And, no, just because I change my mind, I am not sleeping with the R's! I can change my mind, can't I? People do it all the time, especially when they have been misinformed.

Imon128
12-08-2003, 05:53 PM
You're so right, ajt. And I'm sorry if we come across as dilitantes. We just have followed and read so much about this case, and such a lack of Ramsey do-rights, that we take for granted sometimes, that all posters know. Even if you DO know, and disagree, that's okay, too, but expect some of us to just politely point out what we've investigated. We WILL however, answer all your challenges and questions. If I were in your position, I'd ask, too.

ajt400
12-08-2003, 05:54 PM
Thank you Imon, you can't know until you ask.

Imon128
12-08-2003, 05:57 PM
ajt....:) you're a force, too, and you're in a territory that says it's a Ram, mostly, but with good, polite, challenges, such as yours, it only reinforces in some of us, why we have the stance we do. Not only that...but, LOL, you have the position, thanks to maxi and Admin, and openminded posters, to challenge all that.

We'll get through this, ajt.....despite ourselves, okay? Keep up the 'other side', as we love it. :D

ajt400
12-08-2003, 06:06 PM
Sometimes I get frustrated and angry Imon, I do know that. I hold just as strongly to my beliefs as everyone else does. Also, I want to point out that if they tried the R's, and the evidence was there---and they are found guilty, I would definetely change my stance. Pride is not my main motivation, here.

Just wanted to say I am sorry, I can be a bit of a beast sometimes.....and I do love to argue with people.....:bigthumb: :D