Spade/FFJ info

[Tricia]

Sorry to start a new thread but I can't remember where I read about Spade and asking permission to bring his posts over.

Spade has given me permission to tell you to feel free to copy his posts over to the good Websleuths!

Tricia

[Britt]

Tricia - awesome! Tell him thank you so much. :)

Here is the first part of Spade's post The Morning:

This rendition of what happened the morning of 12/26/96 is IMO opinion accurate. The source is material purchased from the nephew of the legal secretary.

For the record, I am not related to the Ramsey's or Fleet White by marriage dispite what the swamp mistress may post.

Officer Rick French was dispatched to 755 15th Street in Boulder at approximately 5:52 a.m. on the report of a possible kidnapping. He was met at the door by the distraught Patsy and by John who told him that their six-year-old daughter was missing and their nine-year-old son was asleep upstairs. Patsy, hysterical and apparently confused about the sequence of the mornings events, told officer French that she went into JonBenet’s bedroom at approximately 5:45 a.m. that morning to wake her up for the trip and saw that she was not in bed. As she was coming down the spiral staircase she found the note stating that her daughter had been kidnapped. John then lead French through the house and pointed out a three page handwritten note which still lay on the hallway floor next to the kitchen.

French noted that Patsy, dressed in a red turtle sweater and black pants, was pacing back and forth, but eventually settled in an overstuffed chair in the sitting room located at the southeast of the main floor. Patsy stared at French her eyes riveted him, but tried to conceal her actions with her fingers splayed over her eyes.

French did a quick inspection of the interior of the house and found all the doors locked, including the door leading from JonBenet’s bedroom to the second floor balcony. There were no signs of the missing child. French inspected the basement during this search, but was not able to open one room in the basement on the south end of the house because of a top latch. John told Officer French that too had personally checked for unlocked doors and windows – John said he found the house locked up as it had been left the night before.

When asked about the security alarm system, John told French that it had not been engaged for several years. While the remodeling of the residence was still in process, JonBenet, then only a toddler, had dragged a small bench over to the key pad to the system and began hitting the keys. The interior alarm was so deafening that they couldn't even hear to telephone the security company to notify them that it was a false alarm.

Almost immediately police cars and sirens were heard coming down the street. Since the Ramseys had not used the system since they had moved into the new house, they didn't know the code to shut it off. Because of this mishap and a couple of subsequent false alarms, they had decided not to activate the system.

After his cursory inspection of the house, French took a statement from John regarding the events of the prior evening. John related that the family had arrived home around 9:00 p.m., that Burke and Patsy had gone immediately to bed, and that he had read to JonBenet for a few minutes before he went to bed. Apparently the morning's stress had also confused John, as the sequence of events he related to French about the prior evening would differ at his later official statement.

Arriving almost immediately after the first officers on scene were John and Barbara Fernie, close friends of both John and Patsy. They were soon joined by Fleet and Priscilla White, with whom the Ramsey family had spent the evening of Christmas day just hours before the disappearance of their daughter. Patsy confirmed that she had called both the Whites and the Ferniest after notifying the police. Bill and Heather Cox, guests staying at the Whites’ home, also appeared. Barbara Fernie called the Ramsey’s pastor, Rev. Rol Haberstock from St. John’s Presbyterian Church, and asked him to come.

According to the family friends, the hysterical Patsy was alternating between noncoherent praying to God and Jesus and screaming, " They have my baby.” At one point Patsy screamed at John, “You have to give them the money and get out baby back.” John, attempting to comfort his wife, responded, “We’ll get her back. She'll be okay."

Within minutes of arriving at the Ramsey home, Fleet decided to look around the house. His own daughter had been missing a few months ago, and after the police were called they found her hiding under her bed. Fleet was hoping that JonBenet too was just hiding somewhere in the house. Since everyone had been told by the police officers not to go upstairs, Fleet went town to the basement. He noticed that the lights were on. He found a small piece of glass from a broken window in a room used for model trains. In checking the latch for the window he discovered that it was unlocked, but closed. Fleet also noticed a blue suitcase was sitting underneath the window. He continued with his search by opening every cupboard and door. He opened the door to the wine cellar, reached inside, but could not find the light switch and could not see inside the room. The wind cellar is completely formed by cement and has no windows. Finding no evidence of anyone entering or leaving from the basement area and no trace of JonBenet, Fleet went back upstairs.

Patrol Sgt. Reichenbach, responding to the call to go to the 15th Street address, passed a time and temperature sign in a mall parking lot on his way to the Ramsey home. The temperature in Boulder that morning was 9 degrees. A light dusting of snow lay sprinkled on the ground, mostly visible on the neighborhood lawns. Upon his arrival at the residence Reichenbach conducted a brief inspection of the outside of the premises. In addition to the newly fallen snow, portions of the yard were covered with one or two inches of crusty snow from a prior snowfall. He noted that no footprints were visible in the new snow that adhered to the grass and pavement areas surrounding the house nor in the old snow still remaining. ...continued

[Britt]

Spade's post The Morning continued (part two):

Det. Michael Everett, the Lead Crime Scene investigator Boulder police department, was also told to report to the Ramsey residence to assist in the crime scene search with Det. Sgt. Tom Wickman, the supervisor in charge of the crime scene. When they arrived they too inspected the outside of the residence. They discovered a basement level window with a broken pane. As they were inspecting the window well for any evidence of entry, they noticed that the grate placed over thee window well was covered with a spider web which appeared undisturbed, making it unlikely that anyone had entered through that window.

According to John and Patsy, Burke had remained asleep during Patsy's morning screams and commotion of people coming and going from the residence. At approximately 7:0 a.m., John decided it was time to wake Burke. It had already been decided that Burke would be taken to the White's residence where relatives were still staying for the holidays. John, accompanied by Fleet, went up to Burke's room. John woke his sleeping on, “Why don't you get up, buddy. You're going over to White's house to see Fleet, Jr." Burke's only reaction to the disturbance of his sleep was, "Okay." Burke put his clothes on, grabbed his nintendo and a couple of Christmas toys to take on his visit to his friend's house, and followed his father and Fleet downstairs. Fleet
immediately took Burke outside to his vehicle and drove way. Never once did Burke ask why policemen were at his house. The only conversation that passed between the two during the ride was occasional mention of Burke’s Nintendo he got for Christmas which he had brought with him.

Det. Linda Arndt, a member of the Sexual Assault and Crimes Against Children team of the Boulder police department, was called at home, informed of the reported kidnapping and
instructed to respond to the Ramsey residence to assist the officers already on scene. She was told that the local phone company had been contacted to set up a "trap" on all incoming
phone calls. In fact, this "trap" was activated even prior to Arndt arriving at the Ramsey residence. On her way, Arndt stopped at her office to pick up a hand-held tape recorder and meet with Det. Fred Patterson who would accompany her to the scene of the crime. Arndt and Patterson stopped briefly at a local mall parking lot to meet with Reichenbach, who had just left the residence, to be briefed on the situation at the Ramsey house. Reichenbach told the two detectives that French, the first officer on scene, said that "something didn't seem right".

Arndt and Patterson arrived at approximately 8:10 a.m. and were met by French. Also already on the scene were Boulder Crime Scene investigators Barry Weiss and Sue Barcklow. Weiss was photographing the interior and exterior of the residence, and Barcklow was attempting to obtain latent finger prints. Two victim advocates, dispatched from the Boulder police department, were with the Ramseys, trying to give comfort to the victimized parents.

The original ransom note had been collected into evidence, transported to police headquarters and copies returned to the Ramsey home. Some of the detectives were working on obtaining the ransom money – Lafayette State Bank was contacted about providing the cash. Family friend, John Fernie, had also been to his bank and arranged for the $118,000 to be available within an hours notice in the denominations required by the ransom note. Fernie noted that $118,000 was a relatively insignificant amount compared to Ramsey’s wealth. According to Fernie, "They could have asked for $10,000,000 and obtained that amount.

Arndt met with John Ramsey, explained the procedure for the telephone "trap", and asked permission to also hook up the portable tape recorder she had retrieved from the police department. She instructed him on using the tape recorder should a call come in from the kidnappers. During this discussion with John he was able to carry on a conversation, and was focused and articulate with his words. He sometimes even smiled and joked.

Det. Robert Whitson arrived at the Ramsey residence at approximately 9:30 a.m. to inform John that the FBI had been notified and were assisting in the investigation. Whitson briefly talked to John about security for the home, and John again stated that he had personally locked up the house on the night of December 25, and that he rechecked that morning and found everything was still locked. Whitson and Patterson then asked John for samples of his handwriting. John went to a counter near the spiral staircase and picked up two letter-size pads of white lined paper. John handed both pads to Det. Patterson explaining that one pad contained prior writings of Patsy and the other his prior writings. Patterson took the pads and made a notation on the tope of each indicating which one belonged to Patsy and which one belonged to John.

Whitson later showed the notebook indicated as Patsy’s to Detective Jeff Kithcart. As Kithcart examined the notepad, he discovered among the pages a sheet of paper with the beginning of a note in a similar ink and handwriting style as the ransom note. This page, apparently a false start for the final note, only contained the words, “Mr. and Mrs. R”

Arndt then met with the distraught and visibly shaken Patsy. Looking disheveled and physically exhausted she had been peering at the detectives from her chair in the sitting room. Barbara Fernie and Priscilla were at her side, along with the Boulder police department victim advocates. Patsy, appearing dazed, spoke softly when she talked and seemed to be staring vacantly into the distance. Intermittently collapsing in tears, she told Arndt that the family had arrived home at approximately 9M P.M. the evening before, that she had put JonBenet to bed wearing a red turtle neck shirt and white long johns, and that she had gone to bed immediately after that herself. As she had also told French, Patsy said that the next morning she discovered JonBenet was not in her room and then walked down the stairs where the ransom note lay. When asked who had a key to the house Patsy stated, "The only person in Colorado with a key is my housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh.” Patsy brought up the housekeeper's name again when Arndt questioned her on who might be responsible for the kidnapping. "Linda asked to borrow money from me on December 24. She needed $2,000 – for family dental work, I think. I was suppose to leave her a check on the kitchen counter before we left for Michigan." Patsy explained that Linda had family problems, not only with her husband who was a "drinker", but also with her two grown children. Patsy told Arndt that Linda's husband, Mervin Pugh, had also been hired a few months ago to do some chores around the house. Patsy had previously told one of the detectives that the handwriting in the note did somewhat resemble Linda's writing, but she admitted to Arndt that the words in the note were not words that Linda would use.

Although Patsy was able to cast suspicions on the housekeeper during this conversation, she seemed unable to focus on other questions being asked and her thoughts were scattered. She asked Arndt what the police were doing and repeated several times, “Why couldn’t I hear my baby.” After the brief interview with Patsy, Arndt returned to the den. Since the room in which Patsy sat was a distance from the kitchen and den area, Arndt had little contact with her after their initial conversation and could not monitor her actions, so she asked French to remain with Patsy.

The gingerbread houses made by JonBenet and Burke at the family party only two days before still sat on the dining room table – a melancholy reminder of the laughter and innocence of childhood that had filled the home so recently. Also visible on the dining room table was a bowl of half-eaten pineapple chunks and an empty glass – apparently a late-night snack left from someone the night before.

Arndt met again with John to go over instructions for him should the author of the ransom note call. John was to get very explicit instructions from the kidnappers, he should demand to talk to JonBenet, and he was to tell them that he would not be able to get the money until 5:00 p.m. John dutifully made notes of these things he was to say when the kidnapper called. Arndt looked down at the list being created by John and noticed that he had placed an asterisk next to the notation "talk with JB”. At the time Arndt thought it odd that John would want to somehow highlight this instruction.

When not talking to an officer, John stayed by himself, and strangely, there was no interaction with Patsy. The victim advocates who had remained at Patsy's side assumed that John and Patsy were either divorced or estranged, because of the lack of communication between the two of them that morning. John seemed to pace the floor nervously in the area between the dining room and den, but ran to answer the phone every time it rang. Arndt observed that when John did sit down, one of his legs bounced up and down in nervous spasms.

In order not to tie the up any lines, all outgoing calls made from the Ramsey home were done on cell phones, belonging to John Ramsey and John Fernie, located inside the residence. John did answer two phone calls which caused him to react by sobbing and having difficulty talking. One call was from his son, John Andrew, and the second from his daughter, Melissa.

No one seemed to notice at first that the suspected kidnappers had not called by 10:00 a.m. the appointed time according to the ransom note. ...continued

[Britt]

Spade's post The Morning continued (part three/final):

Arndt again went over the prior day’s activities with John, who repeated the sequence of events as he had to Officer French: After the family had arrived home from the dinner party at the Whites residence, Patsy and Burke went immediately to bed. He read a book JonBenet and tucked her in bed before he himself went to bed. When Arndt asked about the locking of doors, John replied, “I personally checked all of the doors and all of the windows in the house this morning, and all the doors and windows were locked.” John also told Arndt that there were no interior lights on in the residence when he went to bed that night.

Noted by several investigators during the search of the house was a paper bag containing children's clothing sitting in the doorway to the den. Priscilla White, trying to busy herself during the tense waiting hours, inspected the bag and, finding that it contained winter ski pants, jackets and boots for JonBenet and Burke, moved it to a cloak room.

As 10:30 a.m. approached, some of the detectives and the victim advocates starting leaving the Ramsey residence. Photographs of JonBenet and a physical description were obtained in order to provide information to local police departments about the missing child. Before leaving, Weiss showed Arndt the areas of the residence that had been processed for evidence. Weiss had processed the first floor glass door on the north side of the house, as John told him that was the only residence door which did not have a securing deadbolt. Also, the spiral staircase leading from the main floor to the second floor bedrooms was processed for fingerprints. The handrail of this staircase was decorated with a green Christmas garland, as were other areas of the Ramsey home. Arndt and Weiss then made a brief inspection of JonBenet's bedroom. Weiss had noted when the officers arrived that there was frost on the patio outside her bedroom and there was no sign of footprints or other evidence of disturbance of the frost. The officers continued on the second floor inspection to the laundry area adjacent to the children’s bedrooms. The detectives noticed a red garment soaking in the laundry sink. They entered the third bedroom which had been John Andrew's bedroom but was now unoccupied, and then into Burke's room.

Outside of Burke's bedroom was the spiral staircase that lead up to the third floor where the master bedroom and home office are located, and down to the main floor front entry area. Weiss and Arndt did a visual inspection of them master bedroom and adjoining office. Arndt noticed that John had hastily dropped his navy blue bathrobe on the floor next to his desk. She also noticed on John's nightstand next to his bed was the book Mindhunter by John Douglas, a former FBI agent. Douglas' book depicts his background and work in the field of murders, murderers and criminal research. Arndt thought this book was rather gruesome late night reading material.

The detectives returned to the second floor and sealed JonBenet's bedroom with crime scene tape to prevent anyone from entering that room.

Soon the only police official remaining was Detective Arndt, along with John and Patsy and the family friends. Then even John left to pick up the family's mail, and was gone approximately an hour and 20 minutes. When John returned Detective Arndt noted that he sat in the kitchen and opened the mail. John still remained in a room by himself not making contact with Patsy or any of the friends who stayed to console the family.

Arndt again talked with Patsy who had now relocated to the den area and laid down on the couch. Barbara and Priscilla were still by Patsy's side. Patsy again asked what the police were doing. Arndt told her that she was attempting to locate the housekeeper and that the FBI was now involved in the investigation. Patsy and Arndt started discussing the ransom note. Patsy told her that she could not think of any significance to the $118.000 figure requested by the kidnappers. She also observed that at whoever wrote the note must not know John since the referred to him as a Southern and he was from Michigan. During this conversation Patsy, looking physically exhausted, started crying many times and was often unable to speak. Again, she repeatedly said, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?"

[Britt]

Spade's post Sexual Abuse:

The source is the "legal secretary's notes".

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.

[Britt]

Spade's post Burke's 1997 Interview:

This synopsis of the January 1997 interview with Burke Ramsey comes from the material written by the legal secretary for the BPD dream team and sold by her nephew to two different newspapers. Over the years I have gained respect for the BPD's handling of this tragedy. IMO the relationship between the Ramsey defense lawyers and individuals in the DA's office is the real reason this case is so bizarre on the surface.

BURKE'S INTERVIEW

On January 8, John and Patsy took Burke to the Child Advocacy Center in Niwot, Colorado, through arrangements made by the Boulder Police department, to be interviewed by Dr. Suzanne Bernard, a specialist in child psychology. As is customary in interrogations of children, Dr. Bernhard played a game with Burke throughout the interview and the entire interview was videotaped.

When left alone with the psychologist, Burke appeared to be at ease and even told the doctor that be felt safe, even though he did say that he had not wanted to come that day! Dr. Bernhard thought it was unusual for this child to feel safe. "People in this entire town didn't feel safe with the concept that there was someone running around that could be snatching children, and this was his own sister and happened in his own home. Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don’t feel safe.

Burke described his father as quiet and that he was "always at work", and that his mother "worked as a mom'. The thing he liked most about his mom was that she gave him lots of hugs and kisses, and the thing he liked most about his dad were "planes". Throughout the interview he showed little warmth towards his family, but at the same time was very protective of them. According to Burke, the worst thing they did was not buy him, expensive toys. Dr. Bernhard explained that most children in interviews will discuss things about the family that angers them even if they love them, but Burke appeared to have difficulty in opening up about his family, similar to children who can't say things, because they feel that there are some things they shouldn't say.

Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.

Many of Burke's other responses also created areas of concern for the doctor. Burke displayed an enormous amount of lack of emotion, almost to the point of indifference, which Dr. Bernard explained may be attributed to shock, but could also have been a lack of attachment to his family. Since his mother had appeared very emotional when she brought Burke for the interview, Dr. Bernard thought that perhaps Burke could not deal with the family’s emotions and had therefore just withdrawn. Even in response to questions which should have elicited strong emotions, he remained non-expressive. When asked “How have things been since your only sister died?”, Burke responded, “It’s been okay.” And when asked if he missed her, he said, “Yep.” Burke continuously told Dr. Bernhard that he tried to forget about things and just play his Nintendo.

'When asked to draw a picture of his family, he drew a father figure who was distanced from Burke, a mother figure which was the smallest figure in the picture, and JonBenet was not in the picture at all. Dr. Bernhard interpreted the drawing to suggest that Burke felt his father was not emotionally available to him and that his mother was insignificant and did not have a great deal of power. Dr. Bernhard thought it extremely abnormal that JonBenet was not in the family picture at all, since her heath had occurred only 13 days prior. Most children continue to include deceased siblings in family drawings years after the death because it is too devastating for them to think about the loss. Burke also told Dr. Bernhard that he was “getting on with his life.”, another very abnormal reaction for a child who had so recently lost his sibling.

When specifically discussing the crime, he related that he did not hear any noises that night and that he was asleep, but he admitted that he usually hears when someone opens the refrigerator door downstairs. Dr. Bernhard asked what he thought happened to his sister. Burke, showing the first signs of irritation during the interview, responded, "I know what happened, she was killed.” Burke's explanation to the doctor was “someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement took a knife out or hit her on the head." He said that the only thing he asked his dad was "where did you find her body", a highly unusual query from a child considering the possible questions a child might ask about the death of a sibling.

Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn’t be a secret."

[Ivy]

Britt, thanks for bringing Spade's posts over here.

Along with the strange reactions Burke showed in his interview, I find Patsy's "very emotional" response to him being interviewed extremely strange as well. One report I remember from years ago described Patsy as weeping uncontrollably while Burke's interview was going on. Because this was 13 days after JonBenet's death, I think that rather than still openly grieving, she was desperately afraid Burke might slip up and let the cat out of the bag.

[ajt400]

What were Burke's strange reactions?

[Ivy]

ajt, you can read about Burke's interview in Britt's latest post on this thread. It's right above my last post.

[Britt]

Originally posted by Ivy
Because this was 13 days after JonBenet's death, I think that rather than still openly grieving, she was desperately afraid Burke might slip up and let the cat out of the bag.
I absolutely agree, Ivy, but IMO she was terrified that he would implicate her and John. The fear that her own child might end up being the number one prosecution witness against them was probably overwhelming for her.

[Ivy]

Yes, I agree that's possible, Britt, but at the time of the interview, no one, not even the Ramseys, had been told that Burke's red Swiss Army knife had been found near JonBenet's body. In his interview, Burke said the killer "took a knife out." Where did he get that idea?

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by Tricia
Sorry to start a new thread but I can't remember where I read about Spade and asking permission to bring his posts over.

Spade has given me permission to tell you to feel free to copy his posts over to the good Websleuths!

Tricia



It was me, Tricia, who asked (on the Once Again thread) if we could bring Spade's post over here. Thanks so much for communicating Spade's permission, and also for all your work at FFJ in trying to find the truth about what happened to JonBenet.

Thanks also to Britt for copying Spade's posts from FFJ to here.



Burke's interview is especially chilling. As one who has worked extensively with children his age, I find his answers and reactions (or lack thereof) to be very disturbing, as did the psychologist who interviewed him.

The following paragraph taken from the interview is very telling to someone trained in the use of how body language communicates psychological thought.

Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn’t be a secret."

Dr. Bernhard is right. By Burke picking up the board game and putting it on his head, he was indicating the need to form a psychological "covering" over himself and what he was thinking. When Dr. Bernhard began to ask Burke about uncomfortable touching, his anxiety or discomfort manifested itself through his use of the board game as a pyschological "shelter" from her questions. In addition, it also symbolized a psychological covering of himself, just as someone might hide under a bush or a blanket if they didn't want to be seen.

Burke did not want to talk with Dr. Bernhard about "uncomfortable touching," and subconsciously used an inanimate object to signal his fear or discomfort of the subject.

Another very telling part of the interview is family drawing made by Burke. Placement of family members in a drawing by a child is widely used in counseling to determine family relationships. Dr. Bernhard is correct that Burke placing John away from the other family members indicates emotional distance and detachment. The fact that JonBenet was not placed in Burke's drawing only TWO WEEKS after her death is very suspect and unusual. As Dr. Bernhard says, most children include deceased family members and pets in their drawings for months, even years after their deaths because of emotional attachment.




My opinion.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by candy
who Mike Kane said wasn't even a suspect in this case I think Mike Kane got all his case information from the BPD who weren't smart enough, and didn't have enough insight to figure out that Burke is probably the most valid suspect of the 3 family members.

Kane is a victim of "garbage in - garbage out".

[candy]

Mike Kane personally reviewed the entire case file. He knows it backwards and forwards. He knows exactly what he is talking about.

Steve Thomas has also said Burke was not a suspect. Darnay was given interviews with Burke by the police and other material on Burke by the Ramseys (not cut up like Spade has) and has said the same thing.

Yes Burke has been cleared. He was cleared by an affidavit by the DA's office in 2000. That affidavit was entered into evidence in every Burke case and they all settled with the Ramseys.

[candy]

What the other forum head put out of the Atlanta 2000 interviews is the official transcript, much better than Spade's thing, which he has given several accounts for, which has numerous errors, calling the person who ran the Ramseys web site "Holly" not "Ollie", as anyone who made a transcript who knew the case would know.

[candy]

Notice how quickly The Globe settled after the Ramseys put in the affidavit by Alex Hunter clearing Burke. It was the last thing that happened before the settlement:

10/19/00 11 Notice of filing the Affidavit of Alexander M. Hunter by
plaintiffs. (kt) [Entry date 10/20/00]

1/31/01 12 Consent MOTION for protective order with brief in support,
request for approval of confidential settlement ***FILED
UNDER SEAL*** and proposed order approving confidential
settlement ***FILED UNDER SEAL*** and final order approving
settlement ***FILED UNDER SEAL***. (to WBH) (kt)
[Entry date 02/01/01] [Edit date 02/01/01]

1/31/01 13 CONSENT PROTECTIVE ORDER ENTERED. ***FILED UNDER SEAL*** (kt)
[Entry date 02/01/01] [Edit date 02/01/01]

1/31/01 14 Stipulation DISMISSING [1-1] complaint with prejudice, by
plaintiffs, with each party to bear its own costs approved
by Judge Willis B. Hunt Jr. (kt) [Entry date 02/01/01]

1/31/01 -- Case terminated. (kt) [Entry date 02/01/01]

[candy]

AFFIDAVIT of ALEXANDER HUNTER - October 12th, 2000

State of Colorado
County of Colorado

Personally appeared before the undersigned officer duly authorized by law to administer oaths, ALEXANDER M. HUNTER, who being first duly sworn, deposes and says as follows:

1. My name is Alexander M. Hunter. I am over 21 years of age and I am cmpetant to make and give this Affidavit, and do so from personal knowledge.

2. I am an attorney duly licensed in the State of Colorado. Since January 9th, 1973, I have been the elected District Attorney for the 20th Judicial District, County of Boulder, State of Colorado.

3. On or about December 26th, 1996, JonBenét Ramsey, a six year old minor child, was murdered in her home in Boulder, Colorado.

4. Since the date of her death, I have been continuously involved in the investigation of JonBenét's homicide.

5. As part of the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey, questions about any possible involvement by her brother, Burke Ramsey, who was 9 years of age at the time of his sister's murder and who was one of the individuals present in the house at the time of her murder, were raised and investigated as part of standard investigative practices and procedures.

6. From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, no evidence has ever been developed in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.

7. In May of 1999, I was made aware that tabloid newspapers had indicated that Burke Ramsey was a suspect in the murder of JonBenét Ramsey or was believed to be her killer. As a result of these articles, I was contacted by media representatives and I instructed my office to release a press statement which publicly and officially stated that Burke Ramsey was not a suspect in connection with the murder of his sister and that stated in part, "...almost a year ago (Boulder) Police Chief Mark Beckner stated during a news conference that Burke (Ramsey) was not a suspect and that we are not looking at him as a possible suspect." The information in the May 1999 press release was true and correct.

8. From December 26th, 1996, to the present date, I have never engaged n plea bargain negotiations, talks or discussions with anyone in connection with the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey based in whole or in part on the premise that Burke Ramsey killed his sister. From December 26th, 1996, to the present date, no member of my office has ever engaged in plea bargain negotiations, talks or discussions with anyone in connection with the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey based in whole or in part on the premise that Burke Ramsey killed his sister.

9. I am aware that this Affidavit may be used by counsel for Burke ramsey in connection with libel litigation brought on his behalf in various jurisdictions.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NOT
This 12th day of October, 2000

signed by Alexander M. Hunter
notarized by Susan Ingraham

[Maxi]

If anyone is wondering about missing posts, they were deleted because they contained language that appeared to be an implicit threat designed to discourage the posting of certain material on this forum. Don't do that!

It's fine to say you don't think certain things should be posted or discussed. It is not okay to threaten, even if indirectly.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Britt
Tricia - awesome! Tell him thank you so much. :)

Here is the first part of Spade's post [b]The Morning:

This rendition of what happened the morning of 12/26/96 is IMO opinion accurate. The source is material purchased from the nephew of the legal secretary.
I don't know what this multiple source material is: someone who purchased something from a nephew of someone else..all of them undisclosed and the ultimate source, the legal secretary, not even likely to exist.

Why are so many of the facts wrong? Did she take lousy notes? Or do these notes not even exist?

[candy]

Hi Toth,

You asked a good question "Why are so many of the facts wrong? "

They do not care about the facts at all.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by candy
From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, no evidence has ever been developed in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.
First, this information is old and OBSOLETE. There is a new investigation under a new DA who supposedly started from scratch. If that is truely the case, then Burke is a suspect again.

Secondly, Look closely at Hunter's words above. He never says Burke has been "CLEARED". He says "evidence has never been developed". That could change at any minute and this letter is three years old. All it takes is someone COMPETENT to look at this case, and Burke is one of the three prime suspects. He had the ability and opportunity to cause the death of his sister.
Someday (if it hasn't happened already) someone in Boulder will grow a brain and figure that out.

As for Steve Thomas, he's on record as saying Burke didn't have the "wherewithall" to commit the entire crime. Thomas thinks that because Burke couldn't have written the ransom note he should be excluded as a suspect. Thomas' rookie logic is way too obvious in that belief.

JMO-IMO

[Barbara]

NO EVIDENCE has ever been developed to label ANYONE a suspect, including John, Patsy, Burke, an intruder, etc.

So therefore, EVERYONE is a suspect, including Burke. Only Burke had it in writing that no evidence has been developed. That is the only difference. Some will have you believe that this means he is CLEARED. IT DOES NOT

[ajt400]

What would his motive be? Even if it were an accident, why did it happen?

[Ivy]

As the affidavit Candy posted indicates, in 1999 Hunter declared Burke wasn't a suspect. BUT in 2000 Hunter refused to sign an affidavit Wood wanted him to sign that stated that all questions related to Burke's possible involvment in JonBenet's death had been resolved to the satisfaction of investigators. Hunter also refused to sign an affidavit stating that Burke had never been viewed by investigators as a suspect. Hunter also would not sign anything that said that Burke had not been and was not at the present time a suspect.

Hunter finally agreed to sign a revised affidavit (see Candy's post above) that stated "no evidence has been devleoped to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from witness to suspect."

The revised affidavit Candy posted above served Wood and the Ramseys well in the Rs' lawsuit against the Globe because of specific claims made by the Globe, but the affidavit doesn't clear Burke. It merely states that LE had developed no evidence against Burke.

Source (http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm)

[candy]

I know all about that "affidavit" controversy. I've seen the draft,etc. The NY Post challenged the affidavit, and was allowed to see the basis on which the DA made that call. After seeing all the evidence, the NY Post also settled with the Ramseys, the last of the Burke suits to settle.

[candy]

The affidavit does clear Burke:

6. From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER BEEN DEVELOPED in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.

[Ivy]

So the NY Post saw that no evidence had been developed against Burke and folded. That's it, Candy.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by ajt400
What would his motive be? Even if it were an accident, why did it happen? I don't think a 10-year old needs a "motive". Maybe it was a sexual game gone wrong, maybe just anger when she stomped on his new Christmas toy.

" I am a psychologist in the process of evaluating a 12 year old white male who has been choking his young sister into unconsciousness multiple times a day for TWO YEARS, and molesting her."
http://www.silentvictims.org/

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Ivy
but the affidavit doesn't clear Burke. It merely states that LE had developed no evidence against Burke.
And as I stated before, the validity of the affidavit ended when Hunter left office.
This isn't the Vatican--where a Pope never contradicts a predecessor because it was God speaking through him...LOL

[candy]

LOL Shylock!

The affidavit came in October, 2000. Hunter was out of office in January, 2001. At the end of January, 2001, The Globe settled it's Burke lawsuit, July, 2001, AOL Time Warner settled it's Burke lawsuit, October, 2002, Court TV settled it's Burke lawsuit, and January, 2003, The New York Post settled it's Burke lawsuit, all after Hunter left office.

Please know as well that all of these litigants had the biggest, deep pocket attorneys money could buy, Williams and Connelly, the Fifth Avenue firm that represented the Post.

[Ivy]

They all settled because it became clear to them and their high-power attorneys that no evidence had been developed by LE against Burke to warrant his being named a suspect. Period.

[candy]

When the NY Post settled with the Ramseys, I found out about it about a month before it happened. It was in the process of settling for about 2 months before that. I didn't post on it until it was completely over.

Spade learned about what the NY Post did from my post. The NY Post lawyers never told Spade what they had done. They had quit taking his calls months before, just left him.

[Barbara]

Originally posted by candy
The affidavit does clear Burke:

6. From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER BEEN DEVELOPED in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.

My turn:

LOL LOL

He enjoys the same status as his parents: witness

They are not suspects either Candy if we go by your logic; unless you can show us where they are now officially "suspects" rather than witnesses without "documents" of being called witnesses.

If you can't provide that, then it is fair to say that Burke is in the exact same category as his parents.

[Shylock]

Candy,
I think you're smart enough to know how tabloids work. They run a story which may, or may not, be true. BUT, they know that story will generate X-amount of dollars. So if they get sued and have to pay out out 1/2 of the X-amount in damages they could care less--they've still made themselves a nifty profit.

Tabloids get sued and settle on a regular basis. It's part of what they consider "the cost of doing business". That actually came out during a law suit filed against the NE by Carol Burnette.

[candy]

Easy as pie Barbara. Keenan's statement when she took over the case saying THE RAMSEYS WILL NOT BE EXCLUDED FROM THIS INVESTIGATION.

[candy]

RE: The tabloid stories on Burke, that all settled. From Hunter's affidavit:

7. In May of 1999, I was made aware that tabloid newspapers had indicated that Burke Ramsey was a suspect in the murder of JonBenét Ramsey or was believed to be her killer. As a result of these articles, I was contacted by media representatives and I instructed my office to release a press statement which publicly and officially stated that Burke Ramsey was not a suspect in connection with the murder of his sister and that stated in part, "...almost a year ago (Boulder) Police Chief Mark Beckner stated during a news conference that Burke (Ramsey) was not a suspect and that we are not looking at him as a possible suspect." The information in the May 1999 press release was true and correct.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by candy
Easy as pie Barbara. Keenan's statement when she took over the case saying THE RAMSEYS WILL NOT BE EXCLUDED FROM THIS INVESTIGATION. Candy, I think you just hit the nail right on the head. Notice that Keenan's statement does NOT exclude Burke, JAR, or any other member of the Ramsey family. It's a fresh investigation supposedly--Burke is a suspect just like everyone else.

(Don't get the idea I trust Keenan or have any faith in her. She has certainly proven herself to be a bimbo who can't find her ass with either hand.)

[Ivy]

Keenan told Lin Wood in a letter that during the new investigation she would communicate openly with him (Say WHAT?!?) and that she was acting because "a violent child murder is at large." Besides avoiding the lawsuit Wood threatened to file against the BPD, Keenan, by telling Wood this, was clearly absolving the Ramseys. Keenan also told Wood that she wouldn't go public via the press with her decision. In other words, if the investigation indicates the Ramseys were involved, Wood will be the first to know (and maybe the only one to ever know, except for Keenan's team and the Ramseys themselves). If the investigation points to Burke as the killer, that information will, without a doubt, be kept quiet, imo.

When Judge Carnes threw out the Wolf defamation suit against the Ramseys, Keenan also sided with the Ramseys by calling Carnes's ruling "thoughtful and well reasoned," despite the fact that Keenan KNEW that Carnes didn't have access to the police files that contained the evidence in the JonBenet case.

The investigation is a joke.

[ajt400]

Just out of curiosity, why would the BDA office keep the identity of a child murderer secret?

[Ivy]

ajt, even if the investigation were on the up-and-up, I don't believe a positive determination could ever be made that one of the Ramseys killed JonBenet. If the investigation should indicate they might have been involved, I'm sure Lin Wood would see to it that the information was squelched. This would be especially true for Burke, because he was two weeks shy of his tenth birthday when JonBenet died. Under CO law, no one under ten can be charged with a crime. Squelching information suggesting Burke might be the killer would probably be easy to do.

[Toth]

Originally posted by Ivy
If the investigation should indicate they might have been involved, I'm sure Lin Wood would see to it that the information was squelched. . You seem to have an unjustly low opinion of Attorney Lin Wood.

[candy]

Right Toth. Lin Wood whipped all those BDI people, every last one of them.

[Ivy]

Toth, I have a very low opinion of Lin Wood, but it is not an unjust opinion. It's based on his words and his actions.

Candy, your buddy Wood "whipped all those BDI people" by using as a weapon an affidavit that merely stated that LE had not developed any evidence against Burke. Pretty slick.

[candy]

Toth, you'll understand this:

To show how Spade sees what he wants to see and only that, when The Globe ran an interview with Mike Kane, Spade wrote to me about my post that the focus of the grand jury was Patsy Ramsey. Numerous people had told me this. He screamed at me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong, that Burke was the focus of the grand jury. To mollify him, I posted his opinion of who the focus of the grand jury was.

candy
Member
Member # 311

posted 08-02-2002 02:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received an email from a person with great knowledge of this case. He strongly took issue with my post that Mike Kane believes Patsy did it. He believes, through his own sources, that Kane believes Patsy was involved in the staging aspects, but not the crime. I wanted to post that, because of his strong belief in this issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2714 | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

About a year later, Mike Kane was on Dan Abrams he made it clear that BURKE WAS NOT EVEN A SUSPECT IN THIS CASE, let alone the focus of the grand jury. Spade just makes things up.

[Britt]

More from Spade at FFJ:

Bonita's write-up of this section of 12/26/96 cross-checks with many facts from Linda Arndt's deposition. Bonita had access to all the BPD reports.

Finding the Body:

It was approaching 1:00 p.m. and still no word had come in from the kidnappers. In order to give John something to do to keep him from pacing the floor, Det. Arndt told Fleet, “I need your help in keeping John’s mind occupied. Could you ask him to recheck the house top to bottom to see if anything belonging to JonBenet had been taken or left behind?" Fleet, hesitating, responded, “I think it would be better coming from you.” Arndt located John and asked him to assist Fleet on this search.

John went to the basement door with Fleet following. Fleet first took John to the train room to show him the unlatched broken window that he had discovered on his first excursion into the basement. John explained to Fleet, "I broke that window last summer when I misplaced my house key and had to break in." They searched for broken glass on the floor and found one small splinter. John and Fleet then looked in a broom closet and another small room. While Fleet was still checking other closets, John walked to the wine cellar and tried to pull open the door. Because the top latch was secured, the door would not open. John reached up, undid the latch, and opened the door. Fleet, who was about 20 feet away, heard John exclaim, "Oh my God, oh my God," and went running to the room where John was standing. As Fleet approached the door, John flipped on the wine cellar light switch. Fleet saw the body of JonBenet laying on the floor.

John said he saw the white blanket on the floor as soon as he opened the door, and when the lights came on he saw his daughter laying on the blanket. The sides of the blanket were wrapped over her legs, her head was pointing toward the inside of the room and her feet pointing towards the doorway. Her hands were tied together and laying above her head, and tape covered her mouth. John knelt beside JonBenet and felt her pale white cheeks. He ripped the tape from his daughter's mouth and flung it aside.

John then tried to untie the rope binding her hands and discovered that her arms were stiff. 'Fearing that she was dead, John let out a scream of despair. Fleet ran up the basement stairs to the main floor. Appearing extremely distraught, he grabbed a phone, dialed two or three numbers, but then hung up. He turned to go back to the basement door, but then stopped and yelled for someone to call for an ambulance. All eyes were riveted on the basement stairwell door as John's scream was heard by everyone else still in the house.

John slowly climbed up the stairs carrying JonBenet with his arms around her waist. Her motionless arms reached above her head and her lips were blue. Responding to Arndt's instructions to lay her down, John placed his daughter on a rug inside the doorway at the top of the stairs. Arndt immediately reached out to the child to feel for a pulse in her neck. The skin as cold to the touch and an odor of decay had already started to set in. JonBenet appeared to have been dead for some time. Rigor mortis had begun and the lower part of her neck and right side of her face showed signs of liver mortis - a condition caused from the settling of block in the lower part of the body after the heart stops pumping blood. A bright red mark, about the size of a quarter, was visible on the front of her neck. A white cord was attached to her right wrist. John asked Det. Arnt if JonBenet was alive, and when she replied negatively, John moaned.

Arndt instructed John to go back to the den with Patsy and call 911 and ask that the detectives return and a coroner respond. Arndt then picked up JonBenet and carried her to the rug located inside the living room. After Arndt laid the lifeless body on the floor, a load guttural moan and wail was heard coming from the den apparently made by Patsy. John reentered the room where his daughter lay. He grabbed a lap robe that was laying on a nearby chair and asked Det. Arndt if it was all right to cover her. Not waiting for a response, he laid the blanket over JonBenet’s body. Arndt told John that he could say goodbye to his daughter, but not to touch her hands, move her body or lower the blanket that Arndt had readjusted to cover JonBenet’s clothing.

John first knelt down next to his child and stroked her hair, softly calling out, "my little angel." Then he laid next to her body with his arm around her. Crying sounds appeared coming from him, but no tears were visible. John rolled away and came back up to a kneeling position, looking briefly towards the hallway. John turned to Arndt and said, “It has to be an inside job. It has to be somebody that knows the family. Nobody knows about the wine cellar in the basement.”

Patsy was coming towards the body Of JonBenet, walking with the Assistance of Rev. Hoverstock, and her friends, the Whites and the Fernies. When she entered the hallway where JonBenet lay, she rushed to her and laid down on top of her dead child.
Barbara picked up a gray sweatshirt lying on a chair and placed
it over the child’s exposed bare feet. Arndt told the family and
friends to gather in a circle around JonBenet while Rev.
Hoverstock lead them in a prayer. In spite of the numbing shock
and grief felt by everyone in the room, they joined Rev. Hoverstock in reciting "The Lord's Prayer" as Patsy lay on top of JonBenet crying and moaning. Suddenly, Patsy raised herself onto her knees, lifted her arms into the air and prayed, "Jesus you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead'''
Arndt realized that there had been no response to the 911 call she had asked John to make. She grabbed a cell phone and called the 911 dispatch. She told the dispatcher that she needed a detective and the coroner at her location. Within a few minutes an ambulance was seen slowly driving past the Ramsey house, but did not stop. After another five minutes had gone by, she called dispatch a second time and requested a supervisor, again stating she needed a detective and a coroner at her location at 755 15th Street and that she was on scene at a homicide. Within five minutes of this second call, Officer Weiss appeared at the door, and soon he was joined by other officers and detectives returning, along with the ambulance and paramedics. The paramedics, aware that it was too late JonBenet, focused their attention on Patsy, who appeared to be swooning. Although obviously distraught, Patsy did not need any medical treatment and the paramedics left the house.

Arndt later learned that the delay to her 911 call occurred because the call that been received by Weld County, not Boulder County, and Weld County dispatch had been confused by the address given in the request for assistance.

Now that the mystery of the whereabouts of JonBenet had been solved by the horror of the discovery of her body, it was no longer necessary for anyone to await contact by kidnappers. Arrangements were being made for John and Patsy to go to the home of the Fernies. The Ramseys then left their Boulder home, vowing never to return.

[Britt]

From Spade re the spider web:

Here is the information from "The Bonita Papers" [Bonita is the 1st name of the legal secretary who wrote up the Boulder Police reports] about the spider web. It is the final nail in Looney Lou's intruder theory:

John Ramsey had presented his own theory on the murder of his daughter to all who would listen. He pointed to the location of a blue suitcase under the basement window and told of finding the window open when he searched the basement on the morning of the alleged kidnapping. He theorized that the murderer had made his entrance and escape through the window. However, as noted by detectives arriving early on the morning of December 26, an intact spider web covered the grate which blocked off the window. In order to enter or exit the window, the grate would have had to have been removed.

This grate was photographed and collected for evidence. Interior dusting of the window for fingerprints was done by crime scene investigators and no latent prints were found. In May, the photos were submitted to Brent Opell, Professor of Biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksbury, Virginia. Prof. Opell reported that the web was that of the Agelenidae, known as a funnel-web spider. The web was reasonably intact and extending through the grating, suggesting that the
grating had not been disturbed since the spider constructed its web.

According to Prof. Opell, these types of spiders would cease constructing webs no later than early November, thus indicating that no one had entered that window well past this early November deadline. The theory that anyone could have entered the Ramsey residence through this broken window was totally discounted by this simple evidence of nature.

[Britt]

From Spade:

PINEAPPLE

Coroner Meyer had noted in his autopsy examination that the food found in JonBenet's intestine would have been consumed approximately two hours prior death. However, both John and Patsy stated that no one had eaten anything at the house when they returned from the White’s dinner party, and that JonBenet was asleep when they arrived home and remained asleep.

In February, 1998, detectives from the Boulder police department asked their assistance in conducting an analysis of the contents from the intestine obtained during the autopsy. At the initial examination, Coroner Meyer had suspected that the retrieved substance was pineapple fragments. The bowl of pineapple detectives found on the dining room table at the Ramsey residence the morning of December 26 had been taken into evidence that morning and frozen for future comparison studies. After examining the two samples, the biology professors confirmed that the intestinal substance were pineapple, ant that both this specimen and the pineapple found in the bowl contained portions of the outer rind of the fruit.

The study also identified both samples as being fresh pineapple not canned. The conclusion of the two professors was that there were no distinctive differences between that found in the bowl and that removed from the intestines.

Prior fingerprint testing on the bowl that contained the pineapple had picked up prints from both Patsy and Burke.

[Britt]

From Spade re the Ramseys' clothing:

Keep in mind that Bonita wrote-up her info in 1999. The 2000 Atlanta interviews verify much of what she says about clothing, but are more up-to-date.

One of the problems in the investigation was delayed gathering of evidence. It was not until almost a year after the murder that the Boulder police through D.A. Hofstrom finally asked for the clothing worn by Ramsey family members to Whites’ dinner party on the night of December 25. Fleet had taken photos during the holiday gathering which were turned over to the police department, and police request the clothing that was depicted in these photos. Another month would go by before the Ramseys, through their legal counsel and private investigators, would comply with this request.

At that time, two black shirts from John and black pants and a red and black checked sweater from Patsy were provided. Two months later additional clothing, a red short sleeved shirt and a red turtleneck shirt, were also turned over by Patsy through the private investigator. The police department was informed that since John owned several pairs of khaki pants matching those in the photograph, John had not been able to determine which pair were worn on December 25. Not only had all of this clothing probably been reworn and been through many cleaning or laundering processes, the move from the Ramsey home had been done by a professional moving company. once again, contamination of evidence obtained from these articles of clothing could very likely present problems in any prosecution.

Considering the delayed cooperation from the Ramseys in turning over the clothing, it was significant what items of clothing requested by the police department were not turned over. Patsy had told the officers that she had worn black short boots, to the White’s dinner party. The boots had never beaver been given to police officials in spite of repeated requests. At a subsequent session with the police department to give handwriting samples, Patsy had been wearing short black fur boots, and the detectives wondered if these were the boots that the Ramseys were saying they could not locate. The detectives were anxious to locate the fur boots to test for beaver hair.

[candy]

Keep in mind what this is. This is STOLEN information Bonita obtained from her Dream Team lawyer employers who obtained direct BPD reports. Bonita apparently was planning to write a book with police reports UNAUTHORIZED, WITH REAL ISSUES OF PRIVILEGE AND CONFIDENTIALITY HERE, but then sold her stuff to, you guessed it, the tabs, where tab source Spade heard about it, and is posting things from the police files for the Ramseys to read about, evidence against them directly from these files in a case that has not been to court yet..

[Ivy]

So what? The DA promised Lin Wood she would communicate with him throughout the investigation. Don't you think Wood and the Ramseys probably already have access to all the information they want on the case, including the police files?

[candy]

Absolutely not. This is the people's evidence, PAID FOR BY THE PEOPLE, IN THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS against the Ramseys.
This is the case you would see against them in court.
This is why they are the prime suspects. There is NO WAY Keenan or any DA gave this to the Ramseys, or any suspect this type of evidence.

[Ivy]

Keenan, a.k.a. The People, doesn't believe for a second the Rs were involved in JonBenet's death. Keenan told Wood she was conducting the investigation because a vicious child murderer was still out there. What does that tell you?

Keenan corresponds with Wood about the investigation. How do you know she doesn't share privileged information with him, including the police files? She wouldn't be the first person of authority he's intimidated. Wood threatened to sue Boulder if the DA didn't reinvestigate the case, so what makes you so sure Wood isn't pulling the strings and making his puppets dance?

[tipper]

Originally posted by Britt
From Spade re the Ramseys' clothing:

...Considering the delayed cooperation from the Ramseys in turning over the clothing, ...

Delayed cooperation from the Ramseys?

"9 MR. WOOD: I think the request
10 for the clothing was made in December of
11 '97, a year after the murder.
12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, December
13 of '97, yeah, yeah.
14 MR. WOOD: And you turned it over
15 in January of '98.
16 MR. LEVIN: I believe that is
17 correct, sir."

[candy]

This is an excerpt from an interview on Hardball with Alex Hunter on 4/26/00 about ST's book using case file evidence, nothing like the wholesale looting that Bonita did either:

MATTHEWS: Let's talk about a thing that's bothering you, and I--it would bother me probably, too. One of your detectives out there, Steve Thomas, who was working on the case, has written a book where says this about the investigation and why he says it hasn't been solved. Quote, "When the police botched the crime scene, they damaged the Ramsey case. When the district attorney's office started making deals, they lost it. It was institutional idiocy. And, in my opinion, there are several people in Boulder who are going to have to beg their way into heaven after this one."

We can skip the heaven and hell part there, but let's go back to the--the world we live on. What do you think of that guy's book?

Mr. HUNTER: Well, I think it stinks, and I guess he'll have a bag of gold to buy his way into heaven. You know, he's put a butcher knife into this investigation. You're a former police officer. And...

MATTHEWS: Well, briefly, at least.

Mr. HUNTER: Well, briefly. But you...

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. HUNTER: ...you know, you gained some insights like we all do...

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. HUNTER: ...little--little pieces here and there. I mean, he--he ha--he is peddling the case file.

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. HUNTER: The citizens of Boulder have spent $ 2 million plus on this case. It's not his case.

MATTHEWS: If he had written an adulatory book saying you're the best thing since sliced bread, would you have a problem with this book?

Mr. HUNTER: No, because he wouldn't be divulging confidential information. What--you--you know, when you start talking about what a witness said, what a wit--you know, there's one place in the book--and I don't even want to get into it in detail--where a witness--critical witness in the case begs him not to make a disclosure of some very personal information. He--he lays it out in the book. He criticizes his colleagues; he talks about the fact they, you know, botched the early hours, which I think y--you know, I can make another argument. You know, you don't change evidence. There may be a technical contamination when the body's brought upstairs. But you know, I get--first of all, you pick up in this book his investigative techniques, because the way he writes the book reflects that technique. This is a homicide detective who's never had a homicide case, and his supervisor had never had a homicide case.

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. HUNTER: Fortunately, believe it or not, there are some excellent officers--he was not the lead detective--that have worked this case, have busted their gut, have, you know, put in the sweat, have dropped the tears who he, you know, puts the knife to in the book.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. HUNTER: And you can see this man sitting down with this guy, Davis, who's the writer, and I can hear Davis saying to him, 'You know, you have to add color here; you have to add color there.' And what...

MATTHEWS: And this has hurt your--and this--this is getting--I know it hurts your feelings and it hurts your image.

Mr. HUNTER: Well...

MATTHEWS: Certainly it would--I would fight it, too.

Mr. HUNTER: Yeah, but...

MATTHEWS: But has it--how has it hurt the investigation?

Mr. HUNTER: Yeah, but let me say something. You know, I'm on this show, not because my butt feels raw or my feelings are hurt. I'm on this show because this detective is getting, you know, kissed by ABC.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. HUNTER: He goes on four mornings. They have a little chat with him. And the...

MATTHEWS: On "GMA," right.

Mr. HUNTER: A--and the--the fact is that what has happened here, I mean, it's done. The book is done. He'll make $ 1 million, and I--I h--I'm hoping that the orphans and widows of slain police officers at the Boulder Police Department are not going to be out on the front stoop with a cup waiting for his contribution.

But I'm here because I want us to learn a l--another lesson from this case. There's some wonderful lessons, some hard lessons in this case. And one of them is we cannot have a detective breach the public trust that I think he or she has when they are compiling confidential information, interviewing witnesses, you know, building the file...

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. HUNTER: ...on behalf of the people. That's why I'm here. I'm not here to say he's a bad guy because he doesn't like me. That--that--you know, this guy is not relevant to this case. He's been gone for 18 months. He had nothing to do with the grand jury investigation. He's a cop that, you know, was basically a patrol officer and did a little narcotics work.

MATTHEWS: Yeah, but, you know, he exploited a ready market out there.

Mr. HUNTER: He exploited...

MATTHEWS: The reason he will make any money he makes is there are a lot of people in this country--I won't buy the book because I wouldn't know if it was true or not. And you make it sound like it probably isn't. But let me tell you, there's a lot of people who are watching this case for four years, they see this wealthy couple that seems to be treated with kid gloves and they wonder how long can the case go on. You, on the other side, have been in the DA's job for all these years, and you probably know that some cases aren't going to be solved, that the law isn't perfect. What should we know from your point of view, without giving away the case, that we should know about this case, that--that makes us wrong when we say, 'Where the hell's this thing going?'

Mr. HUNTER: You know, i--it really is interesting. In the early days of this case, 30 days out, 60, 90 days out, the public and the media were crying about how come this case isn't solved.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. HUNTER: And, you know, we would all shake our heads. And you know as a former police officer and commentator that cases don't get solved in an hour like they do, you know, on some of the shows people watch. And--and I don't mean to talk down, because I like those shows...

MATTHEWS: Sure.

Mr. HUNTER: ...and I'm always amazed how they can get--pack it in in an hour.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Ivy
Keenan, a.k.a. The People, doesn't believe for a second the Rs were involved in JonBenet's death. Keenan told Wood she was conducting the investigation because a vicious child murderer was still out there. What does that tell you?

Keenan corresponds with Wood about the investigation. How do you know she doesn't share privileged information with him, including the police files? She wouldn't be the first person of authority he's intimidated. Wood threatened to sue Boulder if the DA didn't reinvestigate the case, so what makes you so sure Wood isn't pulling the strings and making his puppets dance?


http://www.eonline.com/Interact/Backtalk/Posts/1,14,644959-23,00.html
The enhanced version contains John's and Burke's voices as well as Patsy mumbling over and over, "Help me, Jesus." After hearing the tape, Lin Wood contacted DA Mary Keenan and threatened to sue the BPD and the City of Boulder if Keenan did not pull the case from the BPD. Keenan met with 3 area attorneys who strongly advised her to ignore Wood's threats. Keenan did not, and pulled the case from the BPD.

Here is another new-to-me URL FYI:
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/ramseyurbanlegends/
HOW IMHO SO SAD THAT JONBENET"S MOTHER PATSY COULD GET AWAY W/MURDERING HER ONLY girlchild JonBenet...is beyond me...
IMHO...SO SAD TO THIS DAY!!! IMHO

[Tricia]

If the Boulder D.A., The BPD, The F.B.I., the C.I.A., CHiPS, the US Marines, the Navy, Diana Ross and the Supremes, OR ANYONE, had a problem with what is being posted at FFJ.....Don't you think I would have been contacted? Don't you think Spade would have been contacted?

The way Candy talks Spade and I are about to be captured by the SWAT team and hogtied...come to think of it.....some of the local SWAT guys around here are pretty cute....BRING IT ON...:)

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by Tricia
If the Boulder D.A., The BPD, The F.B.I., the C.I.A., CHiPS, the US Marines, the Navy, Diana Ross and the Supremes, OR ANYONE, had a problem with what is being posted at FFJ.....Don't you think I would have been contacted? Don't you think Spade would have been contacted?


LOL, Diana Ross and the Supremes ... ah Tricia, I love your sense of humor.

Yeah, I hear Diana is PLENTY mad at you, girlfriend ... "there ain't no mountain high enough, to keep her from gettin' to you, babe!" ;)



My opinion.

[sissi]

Even Whecht,who
believes Jonbenet was abused at least three days before her death ,has unequivocally stated there is only chronic inflammation to suggest this,there are NO healed or healing areas present to suggest prior abuse.
I do not believe this garbage concerning healing areas on the hymen.

JMO IMO

JMO IMO

[Imon128]

I believe "chronic" means ongoing previous abuse, not just 2 or 3 days prior, but I might be wrong. 'Only' would be a tragic word, IMO, to describe chronic sexual contact with a 6 year old.

[Maxi]

Wecht never saw all the photos nor did he have any info other than the autopsy report. ST says that the panel of experts saw a slide show, including pictures of JBR's genital injuries.

[River]

Originally posted by Ivy
Keenan, a.k.a. The People, doesn't believe for a second the Rs were involved in JonBenet's death. Keenan told Wood she was conducting the investigation because a vicious child murderer was still out there. What does that tell you?

Keenan corresponds with Wood about the investigation. How do you know she doesn't share privileged information with him, including the police files? She wouldn't be the first person of authority he's intimidated. Wood threatened to sue Boulder if the DA didn't reinvestigate the case, so what makes you so sure Wood isn't pulling the strings and making his puppets dance?

Ivy- That's not accurate. I can't give you anymore details and you don't have to believe me. Keenan still considers the Ramsey's to be suspects.

Call the Boulder DA's office and see what they tell you. The Ramsey's have never, ever been cleared.

[River]

The Twisted step-sister from the darkside has turned this forum over to the FBI, Lin Wood, et al for investigation.

Even Wood thinks she's a whack job, but she's too stupid to figure that out.

LOL @ the Swat Team comin' for ya. :D

[sissi]

there is only chronic inflammation

Yes I said ONLY,because Meyer did the autopsy and stated "there is chronic inflammation" this could be caused by irritation,not by molestation.

No one before this ,has EVER suggested healing wounds,NO,I do not believe this.
JMO IMO

[Ivy]

River, I'd be very relieved to know for sure that my post was inaccurate, but even though the DA's office lets on that the Rs are still under the umbrella, why is Keenan corresponding with Lin Wood about the investigation...and why did Keenan tell Wood the new investigation was necessary because a vicious child murderer was at large? Keenan wasn't implying she thought any of the Ramseys was that person. Keenan was endorsing the Intruder theory.

[River]

Ivy, some day this will all come out in the wash. I don't have sources on this case, I just have had to cover my assets and had this researched.

Seriously, don't cut Keenan out of the mix. What she says and does are 2 separate issues.

I do agree with you that she's sending out BS messages. Just know that she has no other suspects than the Ramseys. Seriously. I do not agree, whatsoever, with her stupid annoucements about the intruder.

Keenan needs to complete the job that she was hired to do. She was hired to seek justice for the state of CO and punish people who break the law. Especially those who murder children. Instead, she's made insane public announcements to keep the Wood Pecker happy.

I'm not defending her. I can't stand her. I just know that she thinks the Ramseys are the only suspects.

[Maxi]

I think the "chronic", in the medical sense of the word, means of at least a couple of days duration. There was both chronic and acute inflammation -- staging it has to do with the infiltrates and such. How soon she died after the acute injuries can also be estimated by these same findings.

Chronic inflammation does not imply healing injuries such as bruising or tears. It just means something had been irritating her vaginal tissue over time. Without an STD or semen, there's no way to tell what the irritant was.

[Ivy]

River, thanks so much for sharing that info. :) Maybe there's a chance after all that the case will someday be solved. I'm starting to feel better about it already.

[Jayelles]

I too think that Mary Keenan's statements were ambiguous. I think she's playing her cards close to her chest. She made a statement which appeased Lin Wood and the Ramseys have been talking to her. That has to be good for the investigation.

[Imon128]

Originally posted by River
The Twisted step-sister from the darkside has turned this forum over to the FBI, Lin Wood, et al for investigation.

Even Wood thinks she's a whack job, but she's too stupid to figure that out.

LOL @ the Swat Team comin' for ya. :D

Good grief, River! Are we on the posters for the Most Wanted, now? FBI, Wood, et al after little ol' US?

Twisted step-sister maybe should oughta clean up her own back yard before trying to sic the wolves after us little ol' chickens. (Loudly screaming) CLUCK, CLUCK, CLUCK!!!!!!! Foghorn Leghorn?! Ah say, ah say, where are yah? :D

What exactly, do you suppose TSS (twisted step-sister) wants restitution for, anyhow? Going private? Teehee.

[Barbara]

Oh Imon,

It' is SO GOOD to see you back! We missed you

[candy]

River, I don't agree at all. Keenan has ALWAYS believed in an intruder. In 1998, she was going after Bill McReynolds.
I believe Lin Wood didn't have to convince her too hard that Carnes was right and she should back her. She's never had much to do with the case, never read the case file, etc.

This is a big case in Boulder that Keenan is personally prosecuting starting tomorrow. This is who I think she thinks are child abusers/ killers, not rich people like the Ramseys:

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/dowler/index.html

[Ivy]

What an awful case, Candy! What happened to the baby makes makes me sick and extremely angry.

I haven't talked to anyone at the DA's office as River did, but based on Keenan's words and actions, it seems logical to conclude that Keenan supports the Ramseys and their intruder theory.

Regardless of whether Keenan truly thinks an intruder killed JonBenet, or that deep down she believes one of the Ramseys did, Keenan portrays herself as supporting them--which in itself is grounds for Governor Owens to appoint a special prosecutor. Two of Owens's predecessors (Lamm and Romer) appointed special prosecutors to take over cases when DAs couldn't be trusted or failed to prosecute.

Bill Wise told the Rocky Mountain News that Keenan's two-person staff, neither of whom is trained in homicide investigation, is ill-equipped to conduct an investigation in the Ramsey case. In addition, Michael Kane stated that Keenan always believed an intruder killed JonBenet. Kane called Keenan's corresponding with Lin Wood highly inappropriate. Kane said on TV in 12/2002, "I don't think that as a district attorney you send a letter to someone who is still under suspicion, basically saying to them, 'We're going to look elsewhere.'"

Regardless of what Keenan's true beliefs are regarding the JonBenet case, I think it's high time Governor Owens appointed a special prosecutor to the case. He has every legal right to do so. In fact, I think he has a legal responsibility to do so.

[Imon128]

Originally posted by Barbara
Oh Imon,

It' is SO GOOD to see you back! We missed you

Barbara... :blowkiss:

I missed youse guys, too. BTW, l love your post about Patsy not being concerned for John when Fleet came running up the steps yelling for an ambulance and John had just screamed. Perhaps Patsy thought, "oh, no!...John just caved and blabbed!" :D

[Toth]

Originally posted by Ivy
, it seems logical to conclude that Keenan supports the Ramseys and their intruder theory.

Regardless of whether Keenan truly thinks an intruder killed JonBenet, or that deep down she believes one of the Ramseys did, Keenan portrays herself as supporting them-. I don't see why you are saying the intruder is theory is somehow 'the Ramsey's theory'.
DA Keenan has always felt the BPD should focus on an intruder and has never seen any reason to consider the parents as suspects much less as sole suspects. These were her views prior to any contact with Lou Smit or Lin Woods and prior to her becoming even a candidate much less winning the election.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Britt
Spade's post The Morning continued (part three/final):

Arndt again went over the prior day’s activities with John, who repeated the sequence of events as he had to Officer French: After the family had arrived home from the dinner party at the Whites residence, Patsy and Burke went immediately to bed. He read a book JonBenet and tucked her in bed before he himself went to bed. When Arndt asked about the locking of doors, John replied, “I personally checked all of the doors and all of the windows in the house this morning, and all the doors and windows were locked.” John also told Arndt that there were no interior lights on in the residence when he went to bed that night.

Noted by several investigators during the search of the house was a paper bag containing children's clothing sitting in the doorway to the den. Priscilla White, trying to busy herself during the tense waiting hours, inspected the bag and, finding that it contained winter ski pants, jackets and boots for JonBenet and Burke, moved it to a cloak room.

As 10:30 a.m. approached, some of the detectives and the victim advocates starting leaving the Ramsey residence. Photographs of JonBenet and a physical description were obtained in order to provide information to local police departments about the missing child. Before leaving, Weiss showed Arndt the areas of the residence that had been processed for evidence. Weiss had processed the first floor glass door on the north side of the house, as John told him that was the only residence door which did not have a securing deadbolt. Also, the spiral staircase leading from the main floor to the second floor bedrooms was processed for fingerprints. The handrail of this staircase was decorated with a green Christmas garland, as were other areas of the Ramsey home. Arndt and Weiss then made a brief inspection of JonBenet's bedroom. Weiss had noted when the officers arrived that there was frost on the patio outside her bedroom and there was no sign of footprints or other evidence of disturbance of the frost. The officers continued on the second floor inspection to the laundry area adjacent to the children’s bedrooms. The detectives noticed a red garment soaking in the laundry sink. They entered the third bedroom which had been John Andrew's bedroom but was now unoccupied, and then into Burke's room.

Outside of Burke's bedroom was the spiral staircase that lead up to the third floor where the master bedroom and home office are located, and down to the main floor front entry area. Weiss and Arndt did a visual inspection of them master bedroom and adjoining office. Arndt noticed that John had hastily dropped his navy blue bathrobe on the floor next to his desk. She also noticed on John's nightstand next to his bed was the book Mindhunter by John Douglas, a former FBI agent. Douglas' book depicts his background and work in the field of murders, murderers and criminal research. Arndt thought this book was rather gruesome late night reading material.

The detectives returned to the second floor and sealed JonBenet's bedroom with crime scene tape to prevent anyone from entering that room.

Soon the only police official remaining was Detective Arndt, along with John and Patsy and the family friends. Then even John left to pick up the family's mail, and was gone approximately an hour and 20 minutes. When John returned Detective Arndt noted that he sat in the kitchen and opened the mail. John still remained in a room by himself not making contact with Patsy or any of the friends who stayed to console the family.

Arndt again talked with Patsy who had now relocated to the den area and laid down on the couch. Barbara and Priscilla were still by Patsy's side. Patsy again asked what the police were doing. Arndt told her that she was attempting to locate the housekeeper and that the FBI was now involved in the investigation. Patsy and Arndt started discussing the ransom note. Patsy told her that she could not think of any significance to the $118.000 figure requested by the kidnappers. She also observed that at whoever wrote the note must not know John since the referred to him as a Southern and he was from Michigan. During this conversation Patsy, looking physically exhausted, started crying many times and was often unable to speak. Again, she repeatedly said, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?"

,,,,,.....!!!!!*****
Ok...you've got my attention(I've read ALL of the above) and am moved by this "compelling info!" Thank you!!!!
.....,,,,,!!!!!*****


This one part really blows my mind...WHY?
"Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Imon128
Barbara... :blowkiss:

I missed youse guys, too. BTW, l love your post about Patsy not being concerned for John when Fleet came running up the steps yelling for an ambulance and John had just screamed. Perhaps Patsy thought, "oh, no!...John just caved and blabbed! I (for one) did indeed MISS YOU!!!" :D
:) Imon:WELCOME BACK!!!:)

[Blazeboy3]

REPOSTING...JUST IN CASE OF ...???

,,,,,.....!!!!!*****

Ok...you've got my attention(I've read ALL of the above) and am moved by this "compelling info!" Thank you!!!!

.....,,,,,!!!!!*****


This one part really blows my mind...WHY? ... WHY OH WHY?

"Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation."



__________________

[Imon128]

Originally posted by Blazeboy3
:) Imon:WELCOME BACK!!!:)

Hi, Blazeboy3!! Thanks heaps, and I hope little Blaze and the rest of your kiddies are all doing great! :wavy:

[Shylock]

Originally posted by candy
River, I don't agree at all. Keenan has ALWAYS believed in an intruder. In 1998, she was going after Bill McReynolds. Very true. This woman has ALWAYS been a ditz. She has recently confirmed that again by her comments about Carnes and her release of two different versions of the 911 tape.....DUH.
(Betting on this horse is a REAL long shot.)

[Imon128]

Keenan speak with forked tongue, kimosabee?

[SisterSocks]

I sure hope she will get JFJB OR turn it over to someone else...

[lannie]

What is TOILET RAGE ??

[sissi]

Toilet Rage
is defined by a non-parent young man as
1.suddenly without warning a mother swings her child around banging her head on a tub,twists her shirt around her neck,and shoves a stick into her vagina (this oughta teach her) as punishment for wetting a bed

2.defined by parents
a nonexitent term with no foundation in the real world

IMO JMO

[ajt400]

Okay, if PR went crazy and threw JBR against the toilet/tub/whatever, or hit her with something. Wouldn't there have been blood all over the place? And if there was cleanup involved, that could have been easily detectable.

[TLynn]

Sissi,

Your facts are wrong on the description of "toilet rage" - which, I believe, you are citing from ST.

[ajt400]

I thought ST was God. How many people here have children? How many people here's children have had problems potty training? And how many of you have killed them in a rage then staged the murder as a sex crime?

Okay, how many deaths to children have been attributed to toilet rage?

[sissi]

TLynn, would you offer your definition of "toilet rage". I really have no real world experience with the term or the concept.
Thanks:)
IMO JMO

[River]

Seriously, I know that it looks bad for Keenan. She seems like she's bent on only an intruder. It's not true.

What she says and does are 2 different things.

[Ivy]

River I hope you're right that Keenan isn't convinced an intruder did it and considers the Ramseys viable suspects. Any word on how the investigation is going? Keenan promised Lin Wood she'd keep him up to date on it but wouldn't release information to the press or anyone else. Still, I thought by chance you might have heard something.

[Britt]

The "toilet rage" theory did not come from Steve Thomas. It came from Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the CU Health Sciences Center and a nationally known child abuse expert, who consulted with the police and the DA on this case.

From the FFJ/Spade notes above:

Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent [incident ?] of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

And from PMPT:

Krugman had occasionally seen injuries to little girls' genitals that were related to toilet training and had nothing to do with sexual abuse. In children, one had to separate sexual from physical abuse. By now the detectives had learned that at age six, JonBenét was still wetting the bed, and was asking adults to wipe her after she was done on the toilet. It was possible that the injury to her vagina was a result of punishment. p. 467 paperback

And on Burden of Proof (I posted the link previously), Krugman suggested the 'sexual' abuse might have been a cover-up for prior physical abuse in the vaginal area:

COSSACK: Doctor you made a statement which almost made it sound though that you believe that the sexual abuse was a coverup to perhaps hide the amount of physical abuse. Do you have a feel on that area?

KRUGMAN: In my view that's certainly a possibility.

Dr. Krugman (and Thomas's book) could be right... or partially right. Perhaps JonBenét was being abused by both parents in different ways.

I wonder if the question of "toileting abuse rage" relates to the dictionary being marked to the word "incest." Perhaps Patsy wanted to know if physical vaginal abuse counted as incest.

[sissi]

I think a child was using the dictionary for a Christmas story and needed to find the word,"incense".....it makes far more "sense" to me.
IMO

[Ivy]

I don't think I've ever heard the word "incense" being used in the Christmas story, but maybe you didn't mean the biblical Christmas story. If you did, do you think a child would substitute the word incense for gold, frankincense and myrrh? I don't.

[ajt400]

Weel, there is more than one Christmas book, correct? Also including all the TV movies and shows on for Christmas, and projects that kids may do in school for the holidays....

[Britt]

Originally posted by Ivy
I don't think I've ever heard the word "incense" being used in the Christmas story, but maybe you didn't mean the biblical Christmas story. If you did, do you think a child would substitute the word incense for gold, frankincense and myrrh? I don't.
Ivy, you took the words right out of my mouth. "Frankincense" starts with an "F" :)

[ajt400]

Wow, what a speller, huh? (LOL) but would a 6 year old know how to spell that?

[Toltec]

Excellent thread! Lots of great posts going on. To quote Steve Thomas..."The DA's office gave away the store". The Ramseys lawyers had not only their prior statements, but the statements of BPD AND witnesses before their interrogations. If you re-read the NE book...you will find John quoting Fleet's statement to Lou Smit.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Mary Keenan involved in the murder investigation? I do remember she played some part in it.

One thing that hasn't been brought up much is Lou Smit's "intruder brought pineapple" to the Ramsey home theory. Did he say that pineapple was found in a tupperware bowl in JB's room?

If that is true...then does that explain the paring knife found on the counter outside of JonBenet's room? Was someone preparing pineapple for JonBenet outside her room? Would an INTRUDER do something like that?

[sissi]

The Christmas Story from Luke

1: 5-80

5
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.
6
Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
7
But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren; and they were both well along in years.
8
Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God,
9
he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.
10
And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.
11
Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.
12
When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear.
13
But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John.
14
He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,
15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
16
Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God.
17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
18
Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years."
19
The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.
20
And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."
21
Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple.
22
When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.
23
When his time of service was completed, he returned home.
24
After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
25
"The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
26
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
28
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.
30
But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
31
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

I guess if ya ' hop to the end where Mary enters,the incense wouldn't be in the story.

IMO

[Pedro]

Tricia, I believe you got it right, Burke was never out of the "umbrella" and he could never be prosecuted and I share much of the concerns others have about Burke since about 1997.

Other than that, Tricia, you haven't got my messages; I guess the messenger got lost in the cyberspace...his charm :-)

You know where to find me, if isn’t too late to save your soul, not that I care anymore about such things like souls, but many others do!

[Ivy]

sissi, I see "incense" is in that particular version of Luke's Christmas story. Okay, I'm convinced now that Burke or JonBenet had looked up "incense" in order to write a Christmas story, and that's why the dictionary page was dogeared to point to "incest."

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Britt
The "toilet rage" theory did not come from Steve Thomas. It came from Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the CU Health Sciences Center and a nationally known child abuse expert, who consulted with the police and the DA on this case.

From the FFJ/Spade notes above:

Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent [incident ?] of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.


Hum COULD BE YOUR (RIGHT?) ON TO SOMETHING/..you could be right... let your conscsious be your guide...?
And from PMPT:

Krugman had occasionally seen injuries to little girls' genitals that were related to toilet training and had nothing to do with sexual abuse. In children, one had to separate sexual from physical abuse. By now the detectives had learned that at age six, JonBenét was still wetting the bed, and was asking adults to wipe her after she was done on the toilet. It was possible that the injury to her vagina was a result of punishment. p. 467 paperback

And on Burden of Proof (I posted the link previously), Krugman suggested the 'sexual' abuse might have been a cover-up for prior physical abuse in the vaginal area:

COSSACK: Doctor you made a statement which almost made it sound though that you believe that the sexual abuse was a coverup to perhaps hide the amount of physical abuse. Do you have a feel on that area?

KRUGMAN: In my view that's certainly a possibility.

Dr. Krugman (and Thomas's book) could be right... or partially right. Perhaps JonBenét was being abused by both parents in different ways.

I wonder if the question of "toileting abuse rage" relates to the dictionary being marked to the word "incest." Perhaps Patsy wanted to know if physical vaginal abuse counted as incest.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by sissi
I think a child was using the dictionary for a Christmas story and needed to find the word,"incense".....it makes far more "sense" to me.
IMO

IMHO...this story is told by the "RANSON NOTE---SAD STORY" and it is not filled will "sense" or any "Common Sense" NOT!"... It's a PATSY STORY-THING!

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Ivy
Okay, I'm convinced now that Burke or JonBenet had looked up "incense" in order to write a Christmas story, and that's why the dictionary page was dogeared to point to "incest." This whole concept is too silly to even con