Idaho Amber Alert 2 children

[ShowerSinger]

Just saw on the news. Anyone else hear of this?

[texasgirl]

Just saw on the news. Anyone else hear of this?
Yes, I saw this on the news this morning...any news on who was found murdered in the home?? This morning they weren't sure if it was the parents who were murdered in the home and the children taken or if the parents took the children?!

I'll see if I can find more info....

[texasgirl]

Here's a link that I found on CNN with a little more info.....



http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/17/idaho.amber.ap/index.html

[Timex]

2 of the dead have been identified. They are the mother and older brother of the missing children. The adult male has not yet been identified.

[texasgirl]

I just read that the parents were divorced and they have spoken with the father. He is not considered a suspect or a person of interest...

I sure hope these children are okay! BIG prayers for their safe return.

[1986]

Has anyone seen a picture of the children?

[PrayersForMaura]

Has anyone seen a picture of the children?from the story http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/17/idaho.amber.ap/index.html

I'll try this again:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050517/capt.wxs10105171738.idaho_slayings_wxs101.jpg?x=18 0&y=133&sig=ptlSDJDWg_BZTb9tL2fWjg--

I don't know what I am doing incorrectly but I cannot get the picture to show up in my post! :(

[SauerKraut]

from the story http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/17/idaho.amber.ap/index.html

I'll try this again:
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/US/05/17/idaho.amber.ap/story.idaho.kids.split.jpg

I don't know what I am doing incorrectly but I cannot get the picture to show up in my post! :(

What do they mean by "mysterious circumstances" at the house by the neighbor? My first reaction was, "it was the father" but I guess they've eliminated him. It must be someone they know. Ex boyfriend?

[PrayersForMaura]

"COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho - Three people were found slain in a home, and an Amber Alert was issued Tuesday for two children who live there, authorities said. The dead were a woman believed to be the missing children's mother, a teenager believed to be their older brother and an unidentified adult male, sheriffs Capt. Ben Wolfinger said.
Authorities have no idea who took the boy and girl, he said. The missing children, Shasta Groene, 8, and her 9-year-old brother, Dillon, live at the house with their mother, the sheriffs office said.

"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050517/ap_on_re_us/idaho_slayings

[misterallgood]

I've posted a short article about this at the Blogger News Network --

Groene Children Missing; 3 Murdered in Coeur d'Alene Home (http://www.legendgames.net/showstory.asp?page=blognews/stories/UN0000269.txt)

Dad's not a suspect. In a way that makes this one all the more ominous.

[Izzy Mae]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/US/05/17/idaho.amber.ap/story.idaho.kids.split.jpg
hey PrayersForMaura,
pic. of children (hope this is the correct thread)

[KatherineQ]

Does her shirt say angel, too? Like Laura Hobbs shirt in that picture they used all the time?

Prayers for those kids.

[carolina]

this is just awful! i wonder who the other victim was too...maybe the mom had a boyfriend? and another ex wasn't over her yet?


this either has to be a crime of passion or a crime by a complete and utter sicko crazy due to the extent of violence.

[PrayersForMaura]

Does her shirt say angel, too? Like Laura Hobbs shirt in that picture they used all the time?

Prayers for those kids.
Oh my goodness, Katherine, I didn't even notice until you mentioned it. Just like little Laura Hobbs :(

Why are all our little nagels taken away so young?
Gasp... I mean, I hope she is still alive but this is so weird and scary.

[PrayersForMaura]

this is just awful! i wonder who the other victim was too...maybe the mom had a boyfriend? and another ex wasn't over her yet?


this either has to be a crime of passion or a crime by a complete and utter sicko crazy due to the extent of violence.
I was wondering that too... maybe a boyfriend of hers? But why the teenage son killed?? And why take the two younger ones?

[sharon25]

I was wondering that too... maybe a boyfriend of hers? But why the teenage son killed?? And why take the two younger ones?
the teenage son was probably trying to protect the mother and the kids- if she was in fact killed.

That's how I could see it going down :(

[carolina]

i wonder if the teenage son has the same father as shasta and dillon. and what was the father's alibi? and why isn't there more information?!?

[SauerKraut]

I was wondering that too... maybe a boyfriend of hers? But why the teenage son killed?? And why take the two younger ones?

That's what I was wondering too, if the mother has an ex boyfriend. I would hate to think it was a complete stranger, didn't they live far away from town?

[sharon25]

Wolfinger said the two missing children were not at school Monday, raising the possibility that they could have been abducted earlier.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=766309

[sharon25]

The victims in the house were identified as 40-year-old Brenda Groene, her 13-year-old son Slade, and 37-year-old Mark McKenzie, all of Coeur d'Alene.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156765,00.html

[sharon25]

hmm.. there is already conflicting reports of the last time anyone saw them

one place says that, they were not at school on monday.. and this site says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7884242/

They were last seen getting off a school bus at their house Monday afternoon, the Web site for the Spokesman-Review newspaper reported Tuesday.

I hope they figure out who took them and get the children safely!!!!!!!!

[kahskye]

Wolfinger said the two missing children were not at school Monday, raising the possibility that they could have been abducted earlier.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=766309
I too read that the children were last seen getting off the bus Monday afternoon.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7884242/


Question, how can an Amber Alert be issued if the children weren't seen being abducted? I thought a description of a vehicle was needed to file an Amber Alert.

[sharon25]

I too read that the children were last seen getting off the bus Monday afternoon.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7884242/


Question, how can an Amber Alert be issued if the children weren't seen being abducted? I thought a description of a vehicle was needed to file an Amber Alert.
It should be really easy to clear this up.. and I am sure that they have already contacted the school and verified the correct story.

I was wondering about that as well- about the amber alert I mean.

[ShowerSinger]

This is soooo scary! How far from civilization did these people live? This reminds me of that serial killer in Alabama who has admitted abducting/killing those girls somewhere up north, Patrice Endres, and a few others. Shocking, but it happens.
Prayers for the victims, and their families.

[sharon25]

This is soooo scary! How far from civilization did these people live? This reminds me of that serial killer in Alabama who has admitted abducting/killing those girls somewhere up north, Patrice Endres, and a few others. Shocking, but it happens.
Prayers for the victims, and their families.
actually not *that* far I don't think.
At least it didn't look like it was that far when I looked at a map of the area.

[Rle7]

Police are seeking Robert Roy Lutner, 33, of Hayden, Idaho as a "person of interest."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050518/ap_on_re_us/idaho_slayings_13

[Rle7]

Here is another link with Robert Lutner's photo and license plate numbers.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/NW_051705IDBamberalertLJ.282499f8e.html

[chicoliving]

"He's just a person of interest at this time," Wolfinger said. "He was known to be at the residence Sunday evening. He's maybe our best source of information. We're just having a hard time tracking him down right now."

Fox News Alert link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156873,00.html

[sharon25]

Here is another link with Robert Lutner's photo and license plate numbers.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/NW_051705IDBamberalertLJ.282499f8e.html

Lutner is reportedly driving a 1975 silver Ford pickup truck, Idaho license K161057 or a 1990 white Toyota pickup truck with Idaho license K308811.

[sharon25]

The Groene family and Mark McKenzie have had a history of run-ins with law enforcement leading up to the murder of Brenda, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie. Brenda Groene had DUI charges in 1992, 1994 and 2001 as well as an assault charge filed against her in 1999. Most recently in 2003 she was charged with possession of a controlled substance and was sentenced to one year in jail with 355 days suspended and two years of probation.

Her ex-husband Steven faced a DUI charge in 2002 and a battery charge in 2000. A single charge of domestic battery was filed against him in 1998, the same year he and Brenda filed for divorce.

Their oldest son, 19-year-old Vance, was charged with burglary in 2003. Their second oldest son, 18-year-old Jesse, is currently serving time in the Kootenai County Jail. He’s faced a variety of charges including burglary, battery, assault, giving liquor to minors, possession of stolen goods and doing damage to the jail.

Mark McKenzie, who was allegedly Brenda’s boyfriend and living with her, was charged in 2002 with assault with a firearm.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/NW_051705IDBamberalertLJ.282499f8e.html

registered site.

[sharon25]

also, I believe the "person of interest" has a criminal record as well.
His picture lead me to believe that it was a mug shot.

something silly, over collecting insurance benefits wrongfully.

at least he doesn't have a rap sheet a mile long.
I hope to God that these children are safe and are returned quickly.

[Sheromom]

The adults mess up and it's the children who end up paying the price. What a depressing situation this is! How I hope they find the little ones alive and they are given a chance to make good in this world.

[carolina]

"He's just a person of interest at this time," Wolfinger said. "He was known to be at the residence Sunday evening. He's maybe our best source of information. We're just having a hard time tracking him down right now."

Fox News Alert link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156873,00.html
i wonder why they're having a hard time tracking him down?

i mean...if he had nothing to do ewith it why wouldnt he step forward and help the police ?

[Sassygerl]

Lutner's stepmom, contacted by CNN Radio, said she had not heard from her son since Sunday, which she said was unusual.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/18/idaho.amber/index.html

[lisalou]

"He's just a person of interest at this time," Wolfinger said. "He was known to be at the residence Sunday evening. He's maybe our best source of information. We're just having a hard time tracking him down right now."

Fox News Alert link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156873,00.html
I noticed on the Today show this morning when they were interviewing the sheriff (I think that's who it was), and he said this guy was just a person of interest, not a suspect. Right after that, they asked about the ex husband. The sheriff said, "No, he's been ruled out as a suspect. He's not a person of interest." Hmmm....

[IdahoMom]

This is soooo scary! How far from civilization did these people live? This reminds me of that serial killer in Alabama who has admitted abducting/killing those girls somewhere up north, Patrice Endres, and a few others. Shocking, but it happens.
Prayers for the victims, and their families.LOL! It appears from the pictures it's in a wooded area. Coeur d'Alene is considered to be a mountain lake resort waaaaayyy up north, almost to Canada. Could be outside the town of Coeur d'Alene (pronounced core-da-lane).

http://www.coeurdalene.org/

I wonder if they could have crossed the border into Canada. Amber Alerts were late getting onto our highway and freeway electronic reader boards. There was something like a 9 hour delay. Now everyone is c-y-a'ing.

[IdahoMom]

Local Newspaper Story Today-

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IDAHO_SLAYINGS?SITE=IDBOI&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-05-17-18-04-45

Looks like it was picked up by the AP...so forgive me if this is a duplication.

Editted to add: it just occurred to me they could have crossed into Washington or Montana pretty easily. This town is in the "panhandle" section of my state and has Washington and Montana on either side.

[christine2448]

also, I believe the "person of interest" has a criminal record as well.
His picture lead me to believe that it was a mug shot.

something silly, over collecting insurance benefits wrongfully.

at least he doesn't have a rap sheet a mile long.
I hope to God that these children are safe and are returned quickly.
I did a background check on Robert Lutner, it came up with conviction for FRAUD PROCUREMENT OF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE ...as you stated, something silly, not rape, assault or the like.

[kk's mom]

The adults mess up and it's the children who end up paying the price. What a depressing situation this is! How I hope they find the little ones alive and they are given a chance to make good in this world.

I am so worried about these two little ones. If they are still alive (and I hope to God they are), they must be scared out of their minds. I can't even imagine what they must be going through right now. Did they witness the murders? I have a 9 year old daughter and I can't even imagine what she would be going through if she were in this position. It literally breaks my heart. I don't know how much more I can take of these child kidnappings, assaults, murder. :( They seem to be happening everywhere lately. It's sooo unbelievably distressing. It's to the point where I don't want to watch the news or read the paper anymore. Sometimes, I'm just afraid to go to sleep at night, thinking if I stay awake, I can prevent something like this from happening to my family or my child being kidnapped, etc. Does anyone else feel that way or am I just being unbelievably paranoid?

[sharon25]

I am so worried about these two little ones. If they are still alive (and I hope to God they are), they must be scared out of their minds. I can't even imagine what they must be going through right now. Did they witness the murders? I have a 9 year old daughter and I can't even imagine what she would be going through if she were in this position. It literally breaks my heart. I don't know how much more I can take of these child kidnappings, assaults, murder. :( They seem to be happening everywhere lately. It's sooo unbelievably distressing. It's to the point where I don't want to watch the news or read the paper anymore. Sometimes, I'm just afraid to go to sleep at night, thinking if I stay awake, I can prevent something like this from happening to my family or my child being kidnapped, etc. Does anyone else feel that way or am I just being unbelievably paranoid?
you're not paranoid.
I yelled at my step-dad yesterday for telling my 5 year old that she could play in the front yard by herself.
Then *I* told my little girl that she can NEVER go outside without an adult.

I'm finding it really hard to read some of WS posts because of the
horrific nature to some of these crimes against children.

[IdahoMom]

I am so worried about these two little ones. If they are still alive (and I hope to God they are), they must be scared out of their minds. I can't even imagine what they must be going through right now. Did they witness the murders? I have a 9 year old daughter and I can't even imagine what she would be going through if she were in this position. It literally breaks my heart. I don't know how much more I can take of these child kidnappings, assaults, murder. :( They seem to be happening everywhere lately. It's sooo unbelievably distressing. It's to the point where I don't want to watch the news or read the paper anymore. Sometimes, I'm just afraid to go to sleep at night, thinking if I stay awake, I can prevent something like this from happening to my family or my child being kidnapped, etc. Does anyone else feel that way or am I just being unbelievably paranoid?
You're not being paranoid! I double and triple check doors and windows! If I wake during the night, I always get up and check on my kids. My daughter isn't allowed to walk by herself in my subdivision. Has to check in frequently when at friend's houses and cannot leave their houses without my permission. Better safe than sorry!
My heart breaks for these two sweeties. I am sure they witnessed something. The idea of them seeing something happen to their mommy and older brother just breaks my heart, too. :(

[ISPTRAX]

Obviously, Bowl-Haircut-Lutner did this. He has not surfaced since the deed on Sunday. My guess is he's in Canada somewhere. But, why would he take the kids?

[sharon25]

Local Newspaper Story Today-

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IDAHO_SLAYINGS?SITE=IDBOI&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-05-17-18-04-45

Looks like it was picked up by the AP...so forgive me if this is a duplication.

Editted to add: it just occurred to me they could have crossed into Washington or Montana pretty easily. This town is in the "panhandle" section of my state and has Washington and Montana on either side.
they could be Anywhere by now.
If the murders happened on Sunday and today is now Wednesday, and we just assume that the murders happened Right before they were found- they have At LEAST 2 1/2 days to go anywhere. Definitely enough time to get deep into canada or to just about any state. :(

I really hope they find these children soon!!!!
I'm not sure how they could've gotten out of the house
without witnessing the murders :(

[PrayersForMaura]

I wonder what this was all about?? Drug money?? Domestic issues?

Sounds like the mom has been in an abusive relationship or two and with a DUI, alcohol is definitely a concern.

I sure hope those little kids are ok. They don't deserve any of this.

[sharon25]

Obviously, Bowl-Haircut-Lutner did this. He has not surfaced since the deed on Sunday. My guess is he's in Canada somewhere. But, why would he take the kids?
I would tend to agree with you on this, but at this point who knows.

Is this story making the headlines in Canada???

I would think that's where he would've headed- but then again
he has had a lot of time to go anywhere.

I hope he has the children and that they are safe.

[IdahoMom]

they could be Anywhere by now.
If the murders happened on Sunday and today is now Wednesday, and we just assume that the murders happened Right before they were found- they have At LEAST 2 1/2 days to go anywhere. Definitely enough time to get deep into canada or to just about any state. :(


I realize that. Just wondering what direction they headed and commenting on the close proximity to other states.

[Shadow205]

Isptrax,

Another thing to consider is that Lutner could also be a victim and dead somewhere, you never know. I kind of doubt that is the case but it is possible at this point.

[Alice253]

My heart breaks for these two children and they are certainly in my prayers. I had a thought while reading through this thread - is it possible that maybe they did witness the carnage and somehow got out of the house and ran? That maybe they are hiding somewhere scared to death? I guess I would rather think that than that they have been abducted, and possibly worse. :(

[Pharlap]

Has anyone noticed the picture of the person of interest?
To me the missing kids looks alot like him.
Maybe the ex-husband isn't really the father. Just a thought...:doh:

I do have my:laugh: glasses on....

[PrayersForMaura]

"County court records indicate the family had minor scrapes with the law, including arrests of Brenda Groene for investigation of drug possession in June 2003 and for investigation of passing bad checks; drunken driving and driving without privileges and without insurance.

She once operated Maid To Order, a house-cleaning business, and was on probation for possession of drug paraphernalia at the time of her death, reported The Spokesman-Review of Spokane. She previously served time in jail and was ordered to get drug and alcohol counseling but had trouble meeting that requirement because she lacked money to pay for it, court records indicated."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156873,00.html

Ok this saddens me :(
It shows that the mother had some problems, they may have also had financial problems, and there was also violence within the home, maybe not towards the kids but still ... what a terrible way for those sweet kids to have to grow up :(

[ISPTRAX]

Isptrax,

Another thing to consider is that Lutner could also be a victim and dead somewhere, you never know. I kind of doubt that is the case but it is possible at this point.

Good point. But, if he did take the kids, do you have any guesses why?

[Pharlap]

Good point. But, if he did take the kids, do you have any guesses why?

Maybe there his.........:waitasec:

[dannyodie]

I wonder to myself if this might have something to do with a possible drug debt? still it leaves a lot of un answered questions as to why kill the three that he did and then take the kids. with all the perverts around he has probably already caused harm to these kids. I sure pray they are safe. if he was only interested in the young female then he would most likely have killed the small boy so there was no one left that could identify him. this person whoever he is, is probably out of the state since the border is not that far off. and then again this may be a kidnapping and that the others were killed to prevent them from reporting the crime. maybe this was aimed at only the boyfriend and the others were killed to prevent being identified. I pray for the family members that are left to suffer this great loss and I especially pray for these two youngsters that are going thru no telling what. maybe if they locate the person of interest they might be able to find out more info.

[kahskye]

When did this neighbor, Bob Hollingsworth actually go to the house and notice something amiss? The link below says he went Monday evening after noticing something wrong over the weekend. It makes me wonder if he noticed something Sunday and waited to report it until Monday?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...aho_slayings_13

Also, we know that another neighbor who is building a house, Glen Kimball saw Brenda and the children on Saturday. Who reported seeing Lutner at the home on Sunday? Could there be more than one person involved? Maybe this is a bad drug deal or money due and the children were taken to scare Brenda to "pay up". They could have been taken sometime on Sun. and before being reported missing, Lutner shows up to maybe just warn Brenda that these people are serious. He's not expecting her boyfriend to be there and maybe things get violent, kills boyfriend, weirds out and kills the others. OR, maybe Lutner knew that Brenda was in serious trouble and was able to get the kids to safety, not knowing the 13 yr old was also home. When he heard about the murders, he panicked and is now on the run w/ the children. It just seems really strange that his own mother hasn't heard from him since Sunday.

. . . .just my opinion and trying to convince myself the children are safe.

[kahskye]

I wonder to myself if this might have something to do with a possible drug debt? still it leaves a lot of un answered questions as to why kill the three that he did and then take the kids. Maybe this was aimed at only the boyfriend and the others were killed to prevent being identified.
Yeah, I was thinking that it might have been aimed at the boyfriend too. Maybe only Brenda and her 13 yr old son were inside and why they were killed. The other two might have run off and were taken, taken prior to the murders or taken after the murders.

How sad!

[IdahoMom]

http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/ktvbn-may1805-amber_alert_.288651432.html

Authorities release more details about north Idaho homicide
http://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gifhttp://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gif Investigators are now disclosing how they know all three people found dead at a home near Coeur d'Alene, were homicide victims. Kootenai County Sheriff's Captain Ben Wolfinger says all three were bound, and there are blood splatters in the house. He says the search continues for two children missing from the home. Investigators believe the person of interest, Robert Lutner, may be headed to the Treasure Valley, saying he does have relatives in the area. Watch the News at Noon for live updates from Coeur d'Alene.
http://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gif

[dannyodie]

seems to me that this person they are looking for has heard of the news that he is being saught for questioning that he would come forward to clear his name if he didn't have anything to do with it. the fact that this man has not called or contacted anyone brings the suspicion on him for sure. hopefully he contacts someone that will have the gut to report his whereabouts. my prayers go out to these children, god please keep your spirit close to these young children and guide them home safely...

[Nchadwickaz]

http://newscenter.ninn.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10607

Reporting that he "talked to a probation officer yesterday and said he was going to visit his parents at Boise".
Kind of strange that if is the person responsible -- why would he be checking in w/ his p.o? But then again - don't you think the police would have contacted his p.o. as soon as he was "of interest"? And if so, why would his p.o. then not insist that he turn himself in?
He says the search continues for two children missing from the home. Investigators believe the person of interest, Robert Lutner, may be headed to the Treasure Valley, saying he does have relatives in the are.
Not familiar at all w/ the logistics of this part of the country -- but curious how long it would take someone to get from where these kids vanished from and Boise or to Treasure Valley? -- Also are Boise and Treasure Valley close together (suburb?) --

[IdahoMom]

Boise is in the Treasure Valley. It is several hour's drive from northern Idaho.

[PrayersForMaura]

http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/ktvbn-may1805-amber_alert_.288651432.html

Authorities release more details about north Idaho homicide
http://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gifhttp://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gif Investigators are now disclosing how they know all three people found dead at a home near Coeur d'Alene, were homicide victims. Kootenai County Sheriff's Captain Ben Wolfinger says all three were bound, and there are blood splatters in the house. He says the search continues for two children missing from the home. Investigators believe the person of interest, Robert Lutner, may be headed to the Treasure Valley, saying he does have relatives in the area. Watch the News at Noon for live updates from Coeur d'Alene.
http://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gif
This is sounding more and more like a dispute over property or money.
Reminds me of the beating in Florida...

Is it possible the little kids ran away because they were scared?

The neighbor said a car door was wide open. Were they getting ready to leave and told to get back into the house? Were the two missing children hiding in that car?

[kahskye]

The neighbor, Hollingsworth also mentioned there was always a kid or dog. Has there been any mention about a dog being found? Could the dog be w/ the kids?

[PrayersForMaura]

The neighbor, Hollingsworth also mentioned there was always a kid or dog. Has there been any mention about a dog being found? Could the dog be w/ the kids?
If I understood it correctly, the dog or dogs were still in the house barking... I could be mistaken though

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

In one article posted here, it talks about Brenda and her ex-husband's older sons. One is 18 and is currently serving time. The other, the oldest, Vance, is said to have a previous record. Has it been reported anywhere where this son is?

[1986]

Here's a thought. The mother and son are at home. This Lutner guy shows up. The mother is afraid of him and calls the boyfriend. Mom and son are tied up. When BF arrrives he leaves the car in a hurry, thus leaving the door open. He is overpowered and tied up. The younger kids could have been tied up as well. Lutner could then have carried them to the car.

Lutner calling his PO and saying he was going to visit parents sound fishy to me. Sounds like to was trying to give himself time to get away.

I wonder if this is drug related, a love triangle, or perhaps he was molesting the younger kids? These are of course just thoughts!

[KatherineQ]

LadyGraffix - I don't know about Vance, but Jesse (18 years old) is in prison for a handful of felonies. His quote to Foxnews seems odd, coming from someone with several violent convictions:

Jesse Groene, the children's 18-year-old brother, told FOX News on Wednesday he was baffled at the crimes against his family.

"I do not know anybody sick and demented and twisted enough to do something like this," he said from jail. Groene is being investigated for assault, battery, burglary and possession of stolen property, according to a jail employee who refused to give his name.

"My family got along with everybody, there were no enemies of our family, my family was just good people," Groene said. "It's just mind-boggling to think someone could do something like this."

[IdahoMom]

from www.ktvb.com (http://www.ktvb.com) :

Robert Lutner, person of interest, found
http://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gifhttp://www.ktvb.com/images/pixel.gif The Kootenai County Sheriff says Robert Lutner, the person of interest wanted for questioning about a triple homicide in north Idaho has been found. Authorities say Lutner contacted them and is being interviewed by detectives. He is not considered a suspect. NewsChannel 7 has a crew in Coeur d'Alene and will have the latest developments on the News at Five and Six.

[ShowerSinger]

I am wondering why the teenaged son was home. I mean why wasn't he in school?

[KatherineQ]

ShowerSinger - the police believe the three were killed Sunday night.

[dannyodie]

I wonder if maybe his parole officer told him that he should contact the police? its good that they have located him, the fearful thing is, the kids are not with him. that is a scary sign. if he had them he either caused harm to them or has left them with someone. I haven't watch or read the entire case but does anyone know if this man has a criminal background? maybe with drugs or something? the fact that he was seen at the home on sunday, and the police think that they may have been killed on sunday, then things just aren't panning out for this man. or he is unfortunate to have been someplace that three people were killed. if he didn't do it, I would bet that someone he knows did do it. time will tell. god bless those precious children.

[chicoliving]

Lutner has a record of minor traffic violations, misdemeanor drug offenses and has been convicted of unemployment fraud, Wolfinger said.
Brenda Groene has also reportedly had problems with drug use. Toxicology results would not be available for at least 10 days.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156873,00.html

[nanandjim]

Lutner has a record of minor traffic violations, misdemeanor drug offenses and has been convicted of unemployment fraud...
Recall that Scott Peterson was a person of interest and not a suspect for the longest time, too. I believe that they will let Lutner talk himself into a corner, if he is guilty.

[Liz]

Recall that Scott Peterson was a person of interest and not a suspect for the longest time, too. I believe that they will let Lutner talk himself into a corner, if he is guilty.


As I understand it, Lutner turned himself into his probation officer and has been re-arrested on some minor probation violation.

I believe Lutner spoke to his ex-wife g/f yesterday and she said he was extremely upset and told her that the killings were execution style and gang related. Police apparently had not yet released that information.

I missed something about what the Groene's son, Jesse, who is incarcerated, had to say regarding Lutner, because hubby was talking to me.

Sounds a little as if you may be right, Nan. Especially since Lutner has been taken back into custody.

[IdahoMom]

Liz-

Where did you hear this new information?

[Liz]

Krem news.

ETA link http://www.krem.com/

[IdahoMom]

http://www.komonews.com/stories/36907.htm

[Liz]

I have been praying that these kids have some secret fort deep into the woods, where they ran after seeing the crime scene, to seek refuge.

[sharon25]

I have been praying that these kids have some secret fort deep into the woods, where they ran after seeing the crime scene, to seek refuge.
they have lots of volunteers searching over 400 acres.
how far do you think the children's forts would be?
or how far do you think they would go? If they are even out there?
how cold has it been getting??
wouldn't they have came out by now? unless that were lost..

oh I hope that they are safe :(
poor little angels

[ISPTRAX]

No, those kids didn't run out to hide in their "forts". Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling their gone. They were taken to make it seem like an event where the "kids were kidnapped"... heck, it's happening so much in the news, why not here to cover up for the reason of killing these people? It's just so sad. I hope they find their bodies soon...

[Liz]

they have lots of volunteers searching over 400 acres.
how far do you think the children's forts would be?
or how far do you think they would go? If they are even out there?
how cold has it been getting??
wouldn't they have came out by now? unless that were lost..

oh I hope that they are safe :(
poor little angels


Maybe I'm trying to hold on to false hope, Sharon.

Temps have been between 40s and 60s and with all the rain, it feels colder. Especially if they are wet, I would think they would've come out by now.

But meantime, I will keep hoping and praying they are found safe.

[sharon25]

Maybe I'm trying to hold on to false hope, Sharon.

Temps have been between 40s and 60s and with all the rain, it feels colder. Especially if they are wet, I would think they would've come out by now.

But meantime, I will keep hoping and praying they are found safe.
I'm not going to be hoping that their bodies are found until a lot more time has passed.

false hope is better than no hope IMO.
who knows, maybe this "person of interest" didn't have
anything to do with it.
Although his comments about it being gang related
seemed Very odd to me.
How many gangs do they have there in that
idaho town?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also don't think that whoever took the children did it to conceal the reasoning behind the murder.
What good would that do?

[ShowerSinger]

First, I heard the children were last seen getting off of their school bus. Then, I read that the neighbor was trying to pay the teenager for cutting the grass, and he phoned police, on Saturday? I don't know, but who knows, or said that the new POI was at the house on Sunday? What about church? Were any of the children going? I understand it is a rural community... but there are people who reach out and want children in Sunday school. I'm just shocked at the heinous crime, and the POI is saying to the GF that he knows "something." Gang-related? In a rural area? My God! What is happening in our own backyards should take priority over saving the rest of the world. JMHO

[Tom'sGirl]

First, I heard the children were last seen getting off of their school bus. Then, I read that the neighbor was trying to pay the teenager for cutting the grass, and he phoned police, on Saturday? I don't know, but who knows, or said that the new POI was at the house on Sunday? What about church? Were any of the children going? I understand it is a rural community... but there are people who reach out and want children in Sunday school. I'm just shocked at the heinous crime, and the POI is saying to the GF that he knows "something." Gang-related? In a rural area? My God! What is happening in our own backyards should take priority over saving the rest of the world. JMHO
Here is what I read:
Steven and Brenda Groene were separated in 1998 and divorced in 2001. Brenda Groene had custody of the three younger children and her husband had custody of two older children, Vance Robert, now 20, and Jesse, 18, court records showed.

Authorities were called Monday evening by a neighbor who had gone to the house to pay Slade Groene for mowing his lawn over the weekend and noticed something was amiss.

The neighbor, Bob Hollingsworth, said he grew suspicious because dogs were barking and the door of one vehicle was open while none of his neighbors were in sight.

Now, I know the 18 year old son is in jail, but where is the oldest son and has he been investigated OR DID I MISS IT HERE? I probably did....dunno :confused:

[ShowerSinger]

Thanks TG!
It is still so weird, like okay, why didn't the school check on the children? I mean you would notice if on say Monday the bus driver went by, and like nobody was around??!! You may be onto something about the older child. How old are all the victims? Mom was ___? Boyfriend was 37yo? Strange how the father had what has been said as having "custody" of the older boys, when they are "of age."

[Tom'sGirl]

Thanks TG!
It is still so weird, like okay, why didn't the school check on the children? I mean you would notice if on say Monday the bus driver went by, and like nobody was around??!! You may be onto something about the older child. How old are all the victims? Mom was ___? Boyfriend was 37yo? Strange how the father had what has been said as having "custody" of the older boys, when they are "of age."
The mom was reported to be 40.

[Tom'sGirl]

The mom was reported to be 40.
ShowerGirl, I forgot to add that way back in '98 the two oldest boys wouldn't have been of age.

[ShowerSinger]

Thank you for clarifying that TG!
Still, what about the bus driver, or school people not sounding the alarm? Kinda strange the neighbor was the one to notify police. So, hey, why didn't the school notify "dad" the kids weren't there? Curious as to why he was "cleared" so soon. BUT, that older child...
Still, that POI in custody--just maybe---he's looking pretty guilty..
I only hope they find these two children...
Doesn't look too good, though.
Praying for the victims, and those left behind.

[Tom'sGirl]

Thank you for clarifying that TG!
Still, what about the bus driver, or school people not sounding the alarm? Kinda strange the neighbor was the one to notify police. So, hey, why didn't the school notify "dad" the kids weren't there? Curious as to why he was "cleared" so soon. BUT, that older child...
Still, that POI in custody--just maybe---he's looking pretty guilty..
I only hope they find these two children...
Doesn't look too good, though.
Praying for the victims, and those left behind.
Maybe the kids are absent a lot and no one thought anything about them not being in school.

Also, the MOTHER not the FATHER would be notified as she had custody. Since the mom appears to have drug related problems, the 18 year old in jail I wonder what IF ANY crimminal record the oldest son of 20 has.

[sharon25]

Thank you for clarifying that TG!
Still, what about the bus driver, or school people not sounding the alarm? Kinda strange the neighbor was the one to notify police. So, hey, why didn't the school notify "dad" the kids weren't there? Curious as to why he was "cleared" so soon. BUT, that older child...
Still, that POI in custody--just maybe---he's looking pretty guilty..
I only hope they find these two children...
Doesn't look too good, though.
Praying for the victims, and those left behind.

I don't find it that strange that no one from the school
contacted anyone about them missing a day.
Now, if they had missed several days without any
prior notice or phone call.. that would be odd.

[Tom'sGirl]

I don't find it that strange that no one from the school
contacted anyone about them missing a day.
Now, if they had missed several days without any
prior notice or phone call.. that would be odd.
You're right Sharon, one day absent from school especially prior or following a weekend doesn't warrant flagging an absence.

[lostfaith]

Thank you for clarifying that TG!
Still, what about the bus driver, or school people not sounding the alarm? Kinda strange the neighbor was the one to notify police. So, hey, why didn't the school notify "dad" the kids weren't there? Curious as to why he was "cleared" so soon. BUT, that older child...
Still, that POI in custody--just maybe---he's looking pretty guilty..
I only hope they find these two children...
Doesn't look too good, though.
Praying for the victims, and those left behind.

I know our schools do not call and check if a child does not show up for school. The parents are supposed to call them in sick before the first hour, but if we do not call the school does not check. EVEN with the younger children, the school does not check. Pretty pathetic, hey? And we are a very small school. So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school.

[Tom'sGirl]

I know our schools do not call and check if a child does not show up for school. The parents are supposed to call them in sick before the first hour, but if we do not call the school does not check. EVEN with the younger children, the school does not check. Pretty pathetic, hey? And we are a very small school. So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school.lostfaith,

Your last sentence "So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school" hit me like a ton of bricks.

Out here in my area the larger schools like High School have an Absence Auto-Call System that calls all student absences for that day and leaves an automated message to call the school.

In our smaller schools the Attendance Clerk or her assistant call on all absences ESPECIALLY IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS!

Have you ever called your school and asked WHY the attendance clerk doesn't verify absences?

[Rle7]

Detectives were interviewing Robert Roy Lutner (search (javascript:siteSearch('Robert Roy Lutner');)) Wednesday evening, Kootenai County Sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger said. Wolfinger did not say where Lutner was found, but news reports said the interview was in Coeur d'Alene (search (javascript:siteSearch('Coeur d'Alene');)), in northern Idaho.

Wolfinger also would not discuss whether the missing children, Shasta and Dylan Groene (search (javascript:siteSearch('Shasta and Dylan Groene');)), were with Lutner, but an Amber Alert (http://www.amberalert.com/) remained in effect hours after the man was located.

Authorities have said Lutner was known to have been at the children's home on Sunday night, the night before the bodies of their brother, mother and a man were found.

Police in several states had been attempting to locate Lutner, and Wolfinger said Lutner had known he was being sought.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156999,00.html

[IdahoMom]

I know our schools do not call and check if a child does not show up for school. The parents are supposed to call them in sick before the first hour, but if we do not call the school does not check. EVEN with the younger children, the school does not check. Pretty pathetic, hey? And we are a very small school. So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school.
I've thought of this many times. That's why I drive my daughter to the bus stop each morning. It has occurred to me she could walk to the bus stop, not get there, and I wouldn't know she was missing until she never made it home from school!! That thought just freaks me out!:eek:
...and it makes me think of the horror parents of missing children, and the children themselves, go through. It's tough to get your mind around, it's so bad!

[lostfaith]

lostfaith,

Your last sentence "So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school" hit me like a ton of bricks.

Out here in my area the larger schools like High School have an Absence Auto-Call System that calls all student absences for that day and leaves an automated message to call the school.

In our smaller schools the Attendance Clerk or her assistant call on all absences ESPECIALLY IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS!

Have you ever called your school and asked WHY the attendance clerk doesn't verify absences?

No, I have not asked, but I really should I guess. I am not overly concerned because I usually drive my son to school and then he walks home the 3 blocks if it is nice out. But, I do see lots of young children walking to school, so I should really bring that up to them. There have been times that my youngest has stayed home sick, and I knew he was gonna stay home the night before and we will sleep in then and I forget to call, no one ever calls to ask where he is! My older high school kids, if a parent does not call them in, they must bring a note the next day or they get 7 detentions. Once again, no call asking where they are. We are a town of less that 2,000, my oldest only has 64 seniors in his whole class, you would think the schools could take the time with such small class sizes to call. I think everyone in our town just believes we are so rural and small, no worries. Which, we know, "things" can happen anywhere. I guess I never brought it up to the school because I never get anywhere with that school. :banghead:

[Liz]

Latest news I heard is that a fingerprint expert has been brought up from Boise. Also, that DNA evidence in this case has been assigned top priority at the state crime lab.

Someone here was asking about the kids being seen getting on or off a school bus Monday -

Wolfinger said the two missing children were not at school Monday, raising the possibility that they could have been abducted earlier; the last time they were seen was on Sunday.

[Nchadwickaz]

Not sure how populated this area is, but in grade school and junior high -- they will call that day -- if you are not home, they leave a message - took my daughter to the doctor and spend the entire day in E.R -- totally forgot about calling the school in the chaos -- and 3 days later she brought home a note for me to sign saying that I excused it.... that would have been 4+ days here. The high school here is even worse -- a recording between 5-8 saying that "your child was absent one or more of their classes".

I just know for my area, the school would have been the last to throw any red flags up. It has been that way since I went to the SAME schools that now they attend -- and even called my mom tonight to see what she remember and she said the same thing.... Very Sad....

[Sheromom]

I know our schools do not call and check if a child does not show up for school. The parents are supposed to call them in sick before the first hour, but if we do not call the school does not check. EVEN with the younger children, the school does not check. Pretty pathetic, hey? And we are a very small school. So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school.
All of our schools here call the parents by 10:00 am if the child is not in class. The reason why is because someone stole a little 7 year old girl on her way to school and she was found washed up on the beach a week later. How terrible for schools to wait until something like this happens. Parents, if your schools are not calling you, PLEASE start calling for changes to be made!

[Liz]

From KREM 2 news at 11pm PDT:

Authorities will not confirm this evening (@ 11pm PDT KREM2 LIVE @ jail) whether Lutner is inside the Kootenai County Jail.

Earlier today they went inside the jail to interview Jesse Groene about Lutner, the man Jesse knew as "concrete Bob", that used to be the family's neighbor. Jesse said that he thought Lutner seemed like a "cool guy, as far as he knew"; that he has a large build and an aggressive personality but he's never considered him violent.

Jesse Groene is in jail on burglary charges and hasn't seen Lutner in 3 months. Last Jesse heard, his mother had lent Lutner money which hadn't been paid back.

Lutner's criminal record lists 20 convictions over 12 years, including theft and fraud. His g/f today said she had talked to Lutner yesterday and he was upset and crying and told her that he thought that the murders were an execution and probably gang related.

At the report closing the reporter stated that Lutner was still being called a POI and he has not been labeled a suspect.

=================================================

My take is that whether authorities will admit it or not, is Lutner is still in custody and will be spending the night in a jail cell. I heard reports earlier on news @ 5pm and news @ 6pm, that Lutner had been taken back into custody, due to a bench warrant being issued, based on a probation violation not related to this case.

I wonder if that money Lutner owed to Brenda might have caused an argument; or maybe was the motive for murder. That would be sad but it's possible.

I wish we knew what time Lutner was at the Groene's on Sunday. (Just heard on Greta that the children were last seen Sunday afternoon.)

At least if Lutner's in jail, maybe Jesse Groene can get something out of him!

Continuing to pray these kids are somehow found alive. I am hopeful.

[Nchadwickaz]

All of our schools here call the parents by 10:00 am if the child is not in class. The reason why is because someone stole a little 7 year old girl on her way to school and she was found washed up on the beach a week later. How terrible for schools to wait until something like this happens. Parents, if your schools are not calling you, PLEASE start calling for changes to be made!
Thank you for that post... seriously -- it is crazy that never seemed that "weird" to me -- since, like I said, it was that way when I was in the same schools and seemed like the norm....

I will be addressing w/ the schools -- I drive my daughter to and from since the junior high is 1.5 away -- however, I have 3 that start Kindergarden and they will be going to a school 2 blocks away for the next 6 years -- I am sure they as a group will want to walk eventually..... in addition, I would feel horrible if someone happened to someone elses child... and after this realization... not addressing.

Sincerely Thanks
NIKKI

[dannyodie]

I know this may seem to be early on to suggest this, but I feel a physic should be brought in on this case. I sure hope that this man didn't kill these kids. why kill three at home and then take the kids off somewhere else? maybe they are being held against their will,that in itself is horrible. if this is all about drugs, and a drug dealer has these kids, then things are not looking good for them. I have a program designed by NASA I can see ground images very well, what is the name of the town and name of the street that these folks lived on? what are some of the nearby landmarks? if any I will look the area over and see if I could locate some areas of interest. where is " found girl creek " in that area? it appears to be a very remote area and isolated to say the least.

[christine2448]

lostfaith,

Your last sentence "So, in other words, if your child walks to school, and they do not show up, you do not know until they dont show up home after school" hit me like a ton of bricks.

Out here in my area the larger schools like High School have an Absence Auto-Call System that calls all student absences for that day and leaves an automated message to call the school.

In our smaller schools the Attendance Clerk or her assistant call on all absences ESPECIALLY IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS!

Have you ever called your school and asked WHY the attendance clerk doesn't verify absences?
WOW....I never heard of the school calling. I grew up in Jersey, they never called if myself or siblings didn't show up...(made it easy for cutting) and my son is in 5th, going in 6th and I now live in the south and they never call us either if he doesn't go! I will surely work on this, I honestly never thought of it because I never heard schools do this!

WOW again, never thought of this....just didn't know. I bet if they did this it would cut down on kids cutting class!

Praying for these 2 children, praying wisdom for all the investigators, praying for their families, neighbors, community, everyone involved. Holding on to hope they may find these children unharmed.

[1986]

How would Lutner know that the murders looked gang related unless he'd seen something? That would mean that he was in that house. Also, he was found in the same town. Where was he while the LE were looking for him? Was he in hiding?

[Lady Sleuth]

I would think it would take more than 1 person to restrain and tie up 3 adult sized people and handle 2 young children also.

I would like to know if the bindings on the 3 that were found showed the same or different knotting.

I get a gut feeling that more than 1 person is responsible for this.

Lady Sleuth
jmho

[mysteriew]

A man sought for questioning in the bloody slayings of three people contacted authorities Wednesday as the search continued for two children missing from the home where the killings took place.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=770774

[JerseyGirl]

No, those kids didn't run out to hide in their "forts". Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling their gone. They were taken to make it seem like an event where the "kids were kidnapped"... heck, it's happening so much in the news, why not here to cover up for the reason of killing these people? It's just so sad. I hope they find their bodies soon...
I have this same feeling. I feel like the thought behind taking the kids was that LE would be distracted by the search for the kids as the number one priority, giving time for the perp. to get away. I think he/she/they knew that LE would be more interested in finding the kids than solving the crimes as long as there's a chance that the kids might still be alive.

If these people were bound, and there was a lot of blood, I can't see it being a simple gun attack. It's been rumored that their deaths were "very brutal" somewhere in one of these links. If they were bound, I can't help but wonder where each body was found - if they were in the same room, and if they were forced to witness what was happening to each other. This seems retaliatory or like it was done to send a message. I don't want to say it but I wonder if the younger children were even alive when they were taken from the home, (if they were taken, and not escaped). I just can't imagine why the 13 year-old was found murdered at the scene but the 8 and 9 year-olds were not. If this was about drugs or money or retaliation, what could or did the 13 year-old have had to do with any of it? I just can't seem to figure out why they would tie up and murder that poor child while not doing the same to the younger kids unless doing so was of some potential benefit to the perpetrator or if the kids happened to run off.

The thought of doing this to anyone, especially a 13 year-old child, sickens me to no end.

[JerseyGirl]

WOW....I never heard of the school calling. I grew up in Jersey, they never called if myself or siblings didn't show up...(made it easy for cutting)...In my area of NJ, schools do call by 9:30 A.M. if the kids don't come in, and they are very, very indignant if we should happen to forget to call them to notify them that our child will be absent. This is in the K-8 range. In high school, however, we get the automated call in the evening, and no call-ins are required for absences. I don't know when they started doing this in the younger grades but it does give a bit more peace of mind to know that your kid made it into school.

[ISPTRAX]

I have this same feeling. I feel like the thought behind taking the kids was that LE would be distracted by the search for the kids as the number one priority, giving time for the perp. to get away. I think he/she/they knew that LE would be more interested in finding the kids than solving the crimes as long as there's a chance that the kids might still be alive.

If these people were bound, and there was a lot of blood, I can't see it being a simple gun attack. It's been rumored that their deaths were "very brutal" somewhere in one of these links. If they were bound, I can't help but wonder where each body was found - if they were in the same room, and if they were forced to witness what was happening to each other. This seems retaliatory or like it was done to send a message. I don't want to say it but I wonder if the younger children were even alive when they were taken from the home, (if they were taken, and not escaped). I just can't imagine why the 13 year-old was found murdered at the scene but the 8 and 9 year-olds were not. If this was about drugs or money or retaliation, what could or did the 13 year-old have had to do with any of it? I just can't seem to figure out why they would tie up and murder that poor child while not doing the same to the younger kids unless doing so was of some potential benefit to the perpetrator or if the kids happened to run off.

The thought of doing this to anyone, especially a 13 year-old child, sickens me to no end.

The 13 year old could defend himself, the 8 and 9 year old ones could not. Therefore, the 13 year old gets bound and killed. I have a feeling it was multiple people and a retaliation crimespree as well. Possibly over drugs. The three were bound and possibly made to watch the killing of the 8 and 9 year olds before they were then killed. Then the 8 and 9 year olds were taken to get police looking for them instead of the perp.

[JerseyGirl]

I would think it would take more than 1 person to restrain and tie up 3 adult sized people and handle 2 young children also.

I would like to know if the bindings on the 3 that were found showed the same or different knotting.

I get a gut feeling that more than 1 person is responsible for this.

Lady Sleuth
jmho
I have the same exact feeling. And it does seem quite possible that it is over drugs or big money. And the POI is behaving very suspiciously IMO. He might not have been directly involved, but he might know something, and might be scared to death that whomever did this is coming for him next. I'm even starting to wonder if the POI ever lived there, or told people he did, or led the perp(s) to that house somehow.

On Nancy Grace last night, she was talking about what a big area it is for crystal meth. I don't know if it's related at all but it's definitely something to think about.

[JerseyGirl]

I have a feeling it was multiple people and a retaliation crimespree as well. Possibly over drugs. The three were bound and possibly made to watch the killing of the 8 and 9 year olds before they were then killed. Then the 8 and 9 year olds were taken to get police looking for them instead of the perp.
I have the exact same feelings on everything you mentioned in this post. Exact thoughts that I've been having. I hope we're completely wrong on the younger children.

[1986]

I remember reading that the neighbors said that there was lots of activity in the house. Maybe this was somewhere where drugs were stored or sold?

Would LE be able to tell how many different types of blood were found in the house? I guess what I'm asking is, would they be able to identify blood that came from the younger kids?

[JerseyGirl]

The three were bound and possibly made to watch the killing of the 8 and 9 year olds before they were then killed.If this is the case, would they be able to determine that from the evidence collected? For example, will they be testing the blood from different areas, and notice if the missing children's blood is present in the samples?

[JerseyGirl]

Would LE be able to tell how many different types of blood were found in the house? I guess what I'm asking is, would they be able to identify blood that came from the younger kids?
Sorry, 1986 - we posted the same question at precisely the same time! lol!

[1986]

If this is the case, would they be able to determine that by the evidence collected? For example, will they be testing the blood from different areas, and notice if the missing children's blood is present in the samples?
As my hubby says...great minds think alike!

[ISPTRAX]

I would think that's exactly what they'll do... test the blood at the scene and if they find blood that's not from the three, compare it to the 8-9 year olds' DNA which would be found in the house, for sure...

[ISPTRAX]

Has anyone heard or has anything been linked on how they were killed? Gun? Knife? GunS? KniveS?

[JerseyGirl]

As my hubby says...great minds think alike!
:D :D :D

If I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember in a different case, (maybe the girl that was convicted of shooting her parents?), that different people's blood can be identified in a sample but I'm not sure. Even so, if there was a lot of blood at the scene, I don't know how many samples they would take or if it might be like a crap shoot to get a sample that happened to include their blood. Unless there were distinctly different areas of blood, I don't know if they would get samples that happened to have their blood in it. I also don't know how it would be affected if any of the kids and/or the mother shared the same blood type.

[1986]

I assume they will also check Lutner's truck to see if they find blood there. If the house was as bloody as indicated, the person/people responsible should have been covered in it.

This situation reminds me of the FL killers. The three guys beat six? to death with bats over a play station and the fact that the leader was kicked out by the owners' granddaughter. I don't remember when this was...maybe a year or two ago.

[Et al]

IMO these murders are gang related. I don't understand the missing children though. Usually with this style of killings the perps take no prisoners, unless it is to send a message to the father or one of the surviving sons. Will be interesting to hear what Mr. Lutner knows.
I am wondering if Meth is involved as the players in those transactions have a tendency to become violent. Time will tell.

[JerseyGirl]

Has anyone heard or has anything been linked on how they were killed? Gun? Knife? GunS? KniveS?
The last I heard, they weren't releasing that info. But they did mention the brutality and the fact that there was a lot of blood so I suspect that they were not simply shot, (not to imply that shooting victims are any less victims of the crimes committed against them).

[1986]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/idaho.amber/index.html

Sheriff Rocky Watson called the slayings "a very brutal triple homicide." He said the murders were not a random act, but that "someone was on a mission."

I want to know more about the older sons and what crimes they are involved in. I just can't shake the feeling that this is drug related. I wonder if either of the older sons might to about to turn on cohorts and this was done to keep them quiet.

[amandab]

I'm coming into this a little late, but weren't there 3 people killed in this house? I know mom was one, and a brother was another, what about the third? My apologies if this is rediculous and has been discussed at length already....

[1986]

Those killed were mom, her 13 yr old son, and her boyfriend.

[Tom'sGirl]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/idaho.amber/index.html

Sheriff Rocky Watson called the slayings "a very brutal triple homicide." He said the murders were not a random act, but that "someone was on a mission."

I want to know more about the older sons and what crimes they are involved in. I just can't shake the feeling that this is drug related. I wonder if either of the older sons might to about to turn on cohorts and this was done to keep them quiet.Either I'm missing something on here, but why hasn't any news been reported on the oldest son (20) being interviewed by the authorities?

In view of the fact that the mother was involved with drug activity at the home, it's more than likely the older sons were also! The missing children could have been taken, or gone willingly from the home prior to the murders by someone they knew such as a friend of the older boys.

Let's face it, where there is drug activity "low life" types are in and out.

[amandab]

Those killed were mom, her 13 yr old son, and her boyfriend.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Rle7]

But authorities are still mum about how Brenda Kay Groene, 40, son Slade Groene, 13, and her live-in boyfriend, Mark Edward McKenzie, 37, were killed.

"We know this was a triple homicide because all three victims were bound," said Sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger.

He would not say what the cause of death was.

"We're not releasing any of that," Wolfinger said. "We haven't talked to (coroner) Dr. (Robert) West yet."

Wolfinger confirmed two of the victims underwent autopsies on Wednesday, but said he didn't know which of the victims still remained to be examined. That autopsy was scheduled for today.

Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson continued to correct media interviewers who suggested the victims might have been shot.

Watson said he was being cautious about reporting the cause of death because it might have to be corrected later if more information comes to light.

Responding to a claim by a relative of Brenda's who said that she was shot in the head, Watson said: "That wouldn't be accurate."

"From the condition of the bodies, I couldn't tell if there was a bullet hole," Watson said.

Watson said the three bodies were found in the front half of the cinderblock home.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/19/news/news01.txt

[Sheromom]

I do remember one of the links mentioning that they would be relying heavily on DNA evidence in this case. That makes me think they ARE checking blood samples to see if more than the three are involved. It also said it would take ten days to get any additional information back. The crime definitely screams "drugs" to me. What a sad life those little ones have had!

[Tom'sGirl]

In one article posted here, it talks about Brenda and her ex-husband's older sons. One is 18 and is currently serving time. The other, the oldest, Vance, is said to have a previous record. Has it been reported anywhere where this son is?I saw no replies to your question, and I too am wondering about Vance.

I posted #123 asking again if he has been interviewed....hope someone will know something as it seems odd for him not to be mentioned.

Wondering here......:confused:

[chicoliving]

There was blood on the outside door handle according to a young man interviewed on Nancy Grace's show last night.....there is a chance that blood could be from the perp but more likely from the victims I would think. When I think execution I think bound to a chair and shot in the head but that doesn't appear to be the case according to LE. Here's the link to Nancy's show last night and what the sheriff had to say...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html

[amandab]

In a CNN article it stated that the victims were bound.

[amandab]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200208/ai_n11658928#continue

As a side note on Vance Groene, he has a son, born in 2002:

Tre Coltan Groene 6 lb. 6 oz. boy, 19 inches, born July 29 to Tiffany Pehrson and Vance Groene, Coeur d'Alene. Grandparents, Cynthia and Randy Pehrson, and Brenda and Steve Groene.

[1986]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html

The NG transcript also said it had rained for hours afterward. Would the search dogs do any good at all?

[Rle7]

Vance Groene, an older brother of the missing children, tells NBC he is certain Lutner had nothing to do with the crime. He says he doesn't know who would hurt his family.

http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=46338

That was all I could find on Vance Groene.

[PrayersForMaura]

I assume they will also check Lutner's truck to see if they find blood there. If the house was as bloody as indicated, the person/people responsible should have been covered in it.

This situation reminds me of the FL killers. The three guys beat six? to death with bats over a play station and the fact that the leader was kicked out by the owners' granddaughter. I don't remember when this was...maybe a year or two ago.
There was a good thread on that case here http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11056&highlight=florida+murder

Deltona Fl
The bodies of six adults were found in a home Friday after one of the victims failed to show up for work, and authorities said they were apparently slain overnight.
The four men and two women did not appear to have been family members and had not been living at the house very long, Volusia County Sheriff Ben Johnson said.
A dead dog was also found. Nobody was found alive inside the three-bedroom home.
~~~
Harris said police had swarmed the neighborhood, and yellow tape surrounded the home in Deltona, about 25 miles north of Orlando"

[carolina]

I saw no replies to your question, and I too am wondering about Vance.

I posted #123 asking again if he has been interviewed....hope someone will know something as it seems odd for him not to be mentioned.

Wondering here......:confused:
besides what rle 7 posted, he was interviewed here too...
Brenda Groene had custody of the three younger children and her husband had custody of two older children, Vance Robert, now 20, and Jesse, 18, court records showed.


"None of it can even begin to make sense," Vance Groene told KREM-TV. "They've always been taught don't talk to strangers, they never left the yard. "The only thing I really have to look forward to in this situation is a positive outcome with my brother and my sister," he added.

http://www.komo1000news.com/stories/36882.htm


so hopefully he was not involved in anyway.

[carolina]

i am wondering where brenda got money from to be a stay at home mom....

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/idaho/story.asp?ID=70405

Jesse Groene said his mother used to own a house-cleaning business but in the last few years had been a stay-at-home mom who could cook a meal to feed 15 people even if the cupboards were bare and the refrigerator empty.

btw this article gives a lot of great fam background info.

[oceanblueeyes]

I saw no replies to your question, and I too am wondering about Vance.

I posted #123 asking again if he has been interviewed....hope someone will know something as it seems odd for him not to be mentioned.

Wondering here......:confused:

Day before yesterday I saw one of the older brothers being interviewed. He was slim, sort of dish water blonde hair. He teared up some when talking about he didn't know who would hurt his family. Is that the brother you are talking about?

Ocean

[nanandjim]

This case kind of reminds me of a husband and wife who were killed and their little girl who was about 9 years old was missing. I think that they lived in a trailer. I am not sure the little girl (Jennifer??) was ever found. Also, don't know if they ever found the murderer/kidnapper.

[1986]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html

After seven hours of questioning, police determined that Robert Roy Lutner had nothing to do with the crimes, sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger said Thursday afternoon.

[Mare]

This case kind of reminds me of a husband and wife who were killed and their little girl who was about 9 years old was missing. I think that they lived in a trailer. I am not sure the little girl (Jennifer??) was ever found. Also, don't know if they ever found the murderer/kidnapper.

I think you are talking about Jennifer Short...

Jennifer Short (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11660)

Mare

[chicoliving]

I think you are talking about Jennifer Short...

Jennifer Short (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11660)

Mare
Thanks for the link Mare. I remember when this happened but never knew she was finally found........another sad sad case. I've thought of this particular story a lot never knowing the outcome with Jennifer until now.

[nanandjim]

I think you are talking about Jennifer Short...

Jennifer Short (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11660)

Mare
Mare - That's the case. Thanks so much for the link. Unfortunately, it looks like this case was not solved. I don't understand why the children are taken from the scene if they are going to be killed.

[Tom'sGirl]

Day before yesterday I saw one of the older brothers being interviewed. He was slim, sort of dish water blonde hair. He teared up some when talking about he didn't know who would hurt his family. Is that the brother you are talking about?

Ocean
Thanks Ob, I finally saw that on T.V. but only passing by the T.V. set and didn't hear the entire thing.

[Liz]

This may not be pertinent since Lutner is no longer a POI, according to Sheriff Wolfinger. But, I'll post it anyway. ;) BTW, I like that sheriff! :)

KREM 2 noon news aired a little more of that jail house interview with Jesse Groene, age 18. Jesse said that his family's known Lutner for about two years. He also said that his parents lent (his word) Lutner $2000, so that he could save his house.

He added, "and I know he wasn't paying them back and stuff (?) and they would try riding him pretty hard about it."

* * * * * * * * * *

I thought the "and stuff" sounded a bit strange as I watched it played back. Made me think that was his way of saying his parents might take money or other stuff as payment, like drugs? maybe?

Someone a page or so back asked about the area and the landmarks. The area of course, is Coeur D'Alene and it's Frontage Road, near Wolf Lodge Bay and it's pretty close right off of I-90. Hope that helps! :)

Still holding out hope and prayers, here.

[KatherineQ]

I just read on Fox that the Groene's had a 'barbecue style get-together' that Sunday night, according to Lutner.

I wonder if this is the first time they knew that? The cops are asking anyone with information or who attended the barbecue to contact them.

Hmm.

[carolina]

I just read on Fox that the Groene's had a 'barbecue style get-together' that Sunday night, according to Lutner.

I wonder if this is the first time they knew that? The cops are asking anyone with information or who attended the barbecue to contact them.

Hmm.

ummm...if lutner was there shouldnt he be able to tell the cops who else was there instead of waiting for those people to come forward?

[MistyGirl]

Ok has has Lutner be released??? Where was it stated that he is no longer a person of interest????? Ok if they had a BBQ type thing Sunday there has to be more people who know something or at least can help put together a time line etc. This really stinks to me. I would bet that Crystal Meth is a HUGE part of this case. The killings the way the police are describing to me sound very brutal and that very well can happen by a person or person using Crystal Meth.

[1986]

If I were at a supper with a family that was murdered and two kids missing I be running to the police. Where are the other folks from the BBQ? Was Lutner the only guest? Did the neighbors not notice traffic and the smell of the grill?

[KatherineQ]

I don't know. I'm sure the cops are keeping some secrets -

Maybe Lutner left before the barbecue, though, or maybe he didn't know all the people there, or maybe he left early . . .

I can't imagine. I mean, if you were at a barbecue the night before this happened, you'd call the cops and say well they had this barbecue . . .

[MistyGirl]

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho -- Idaho authorities plan to drain small ponds in the Coeur d’Alene area as they continue to search for any clues about two children missing from their Idaho home where three adults were found dead.
http://newscenter.ninn.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10635



I have not heard the "pond" thing before......Hmmmm

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

I saw no replies to your question, and I too am wondering about Vance.

I posted #123 asking again if he has been interviewed....hope someone will know something as it seems odd for him not to be mentioned.

Wondering here......:confused:

Seems odd to me that so many days later, there's still no word about him. They've apparently talked pretty extensively to the son who is in jail. I can't imagine that they wouldn't want to talk to the older one. If I remember correctly from one of the early articles, Vance does have a criminal record, although I don't know to what extent.

I understand the speculation that the perps may have made the two kids disappear in order to distract LE. But honestly, for someone to do that, it seems to me would be an awfully big risk just for a distraction; particularly when you consider that disposing or displacing them in any way would take time . . . time that could be used to distance themselves from the crime scene.

So, to me, it seems more likely that either a family member is involved in some way . . . or I'm thinking in the case of someone outside the family, god forbid, it could be a case where the kids were taken to be disposed of on the black market. In that scenario, the kids would have some value to the perps in order for them to take the extra risk. At this point, I'd rather think that maybe if Vance is involved in any way, maybe he took them out of harms way.

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

Vance Groene, an older brother of the missing children, tells NBC he is certain Lutner had nothing to do with the crime. He says he doesn't know who would hurt his family.

http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=46338

That was all I could find on Vance Groene.

Thanks! That's the first I've seen mentioned of him.

Both brothers seem to know Lutner and both say they are certain he had nothing to do with it. Hello, brick wall . . .

[lady-eowyn]

He added, "and I know he wasn't paying them back and stuff (?) and they would try riding him pretty hard about it."

* * * * * * * * * *

I thought the "and stuff" sounded a bit strange as I watched it played back. Made me think that was his way of saying his parents might take money or other stuff as payment, like drugs? maybe?


A lot of young people use those kinds of phrases in their talk...I wouldn't personally read too much into it. Kind of like using "like".

[MistyGirl]

Something isn't right here....at all. There is more to this story that the police are saying. You would think Lutner gave him a list of names of who was at their house for the BBQ on Sunday........Hmm...I just thought of something how did the Police get Lutner name? I mean how did they know he was a person of interest or was the last one to see them etc??? I mean the police got that information from someone somehow.....so who????

So maybe people that did attend the BBQ had already contacted police and that is where Police got Lutner's name from. Maybe the General statement from police asking anyone one else there to contact them......is to throw off who they think might have done it, maybe they have aleady talked to the person, or maybe that was just a standard thing they say just in case someone else was there that was not seen by Lunter or the "others". Sorry if I am rambling but this case is really really upseting me....so sad.

[KatherineQ]

Lady Graffix - the cops also think Lutner had nothing to do with it apparently, not just the brothers.

I'm surprised, but not sure how to take it, that both brothers made somewhat bizarre statements. I guess in grief you say stuff that is just mumbo jumbo words that mean nothing sometimes.

For Jesse to say they have no family enemies, that can't be true. Families that have several violent felonies among them have enemies - their victims. And they're likely to have friends who are the same type people.

And then for Vance to make a point of saying the kids never left the yard (that doesn't seem pertinent in this case at all, but whatever) and then reading articles they apparently strayed far and wide in their play all the time.

Why would both brothers say stuff that is clearly not true? That family was chaos and both brothers seem not to notice.

Those poor kids. It seems like the odds are getting slimmer and slimmer they're safe.

[Whimsigal]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html


Cops Clear Idaho 'Person of Interest'Investigators cleared a man they called a "person of interest" in the bloody murders of three people and the disappearance of two children after the man passed a lie detector test.

It looks like they are back at square one.

[Nchadwickaz]

I was raised w/ this "criminal-drug- darkside" element throughout my upbringing, not by my choices but by those that raised me, as a child in this element -- this is normal. It wasn't until I chose to not raise my children like that, did I even realize that these are two completely different worlds.

Everything being released about this, screams drug-related.... not pot, ect. -- Prob. meth -- possibly cocaine (not crack), or herion. Just because these people have minor convictions etc -- they probably plead down to a lessor crime -- so what the actual arrest was made on we are not aware of..... in addition to that, I am in awe of minor crimes or people NEVER convicted that were in and out of my life as a child -- now looking and seeing after 30-40 years later -- they still have no criminal records but defin. should have.....

The only thing that I wanted to point out are these worlds are completely different -- If you have never been exposed (be thankful) then every aspect of this case will make no sense to you. These people live in a completely different world the us. This prep. that they are questioning, probably isn't the one who committed this - it would not be odd to have traffic in and out of that home, even if they were just users, thoughout a short amount of time. But I am sure he is scared, since he probably can't reveal too much of what transpired there, for his ass (probabion) or for being taken out -- I am sure these people were looking for him just as much as the police, if he knows too much. Thankfully he went to the police...

Views I can shed some light on -- This was planned, this was in revenge of some type...the people that actually committed this crime -- probably are not the ones connected to the motive....thats way harder to trace (if they planned, they planned how not to be incriminated) -- but these people talk, and they gloat and many people know the details, but these are people that will possibly not want to be incriminated themselves OR more importantly will not come forward due to the same revenge on them and their families....

What I am scared of for these children, if they are sure through DNA that they were not killed at the scene -- then they were probably taken out of the house prior to (look, the people that were killed, 13 yr. old included-- were justified to the person carrying it out )-- it is probably a good sign that they made sure that they were not killed w/ the rest of the family. So if they were taken out alive before, I would hate for those children now to be killed, because of this manhunt for the children and they panic.....

Someone in that sick world, cared for those children and made sure they were removed -- I just hope that they keep caring long enough for the police to piece together all of of the crazy leads that they are getting.

I believe somewhere prior to this, there was a link that reported they had an large amounts of tips (probably anonymous -- which is the key to getting this solved in the form of either weird (tips) or (people).

I so feel for these children, this is normal to them -- so sad!

Nikki

[KatherineQ]

Nchad - I agree, this does sound planned, and it does seem to stem from their apparent drug lifestyle.

The police today seem to be trying to say they weren't shot. That I guess would leave stabbing, if there was blood splattered everywhere. Horrible.

It's hard to imagine how a lone person with no planning and no gun could tie up 2 adults and one teenage boy.

Sounds like a planned, group effort.

[Liz]

MistyGirl, my gut tells me your guess about crystal meth may be right on the money. There is definitely some type of illegal drug dealings.

Also, LadyGraffix, I tend to agree that the only reason anyone would removed those kids would be for black marketing purposes. Otherwise, I see no point, at all.

My only other guess (and my prayer) is that they ran like hell, knowing their future was subject to the same demise they'd seen the other three face.

ETA, since I posted before reading Nikki's post, I didn't mean to repeat what she said. I agree with you Nikki as I thought Lutner sounded scared, the way he called his G/F and was crying about the killings being execution style and gang related. Sounded like he was worried someone might be coming for him next. I imagine that is why none of the barbecue attendees are coming forward and speaking out, even to law enforcement as it would be quite incriminating, as well as possibly very hazardous to their health.

Yep, these children knew this as a way of life and that is why I feel they may have run and may still be in hiding.

Steve Groene's statement that 'the kids don't have anything to do with any of this' pretty much speaks for itself.

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

I'm surprised, but not sure how to take it, that both brothers made somewhat bizarre statements. I guess in grief you say stuff that is just mumbo jumbo words that mean nothing sometimes.

I'm thinking the same thing . . . something just seemed strange.

[sharon25]

Nchad - I agree, this does sound planned, and it does seem to stem from their apparent drug lifestyle.

The police today seem to be trying to say they weren't shot. That I guess would leave stabbing, if there was blood splattered everywhere. Horrible.

It's hard to imagine how a lone person with no planning and no gun could tie up 2 adults and one teenage boy.

Sounds like a planned, group effort.
the only way I could imagine one person being able to do this, is if
the killer did it while they were sleeping, and either tied up the 13 year old first, and then used him as a bargaining chip - "do what I say or I'll hurt him"
or simply surprised the rest of them.

It never says that they didn't use a gun.
They could've used it to tie them up.
but then the actual killing seems to have been
done with a knife or something.


It does seem more likely that their would've been more than
one killer. That could be a real benefit for the police.
More than one killer- means more than one person trying
to keep a secret.

I'm still hoping and praying for the children's
safe return. Although it's looking really slim
at this point :(

[ISPTRAX]

I'm thinking it was someone the family knew. And it was a hateful retaliation. Maybe over a drug deal gone bad, or something. Because, notice the dog (or dogs) weren't killed? Maybe they were just really fast or something, though. Or it was someone who didn't hold a grudge against the dog(s), so left it/them alone. And I really think the kids were taken (probably killed first) to get LE looking for them, not the perps.

[KatherineQ]

Sharon - I read somewhere this morning that the sheriff was trying to dispel rumors that the mother had been shot in the head, and then he went on to say something about rumors of a gun being used at all.

The statement was very foggy, and I can't find it now. I think it's been "updated out" of the news articles.

[sharon25]

Sharon - I read somewhere this morning that the sheriff was trying to dispel rumors that the mother had been shot in the head, and then he went on to say something about rumors of a gun being used at all.

The statement was very foggy, and I can't find it now. I think it's been "updated out" of the news articles.

I was just saying that the killers would be the only
ones to know if they brought a gun and didn't use it.

I think if someone had a knife and ordered me to do something
I might not listen, as opposed to if someone had a gun.

Know what I'm trying to say? I'm having a hard time getting
my ideas across today! need more caffeine :)

[Liz]

I was just saying that the killers would be the only
ones to know if they brought a gun and didn't use it.

I think if someone had a knife and ordered me to do something
I might not listen, as opposed to if someone had a gun.

Know what I'm trying to say? I'm having a hard time getting
my ideas across today! need more caffeine :)


I know exactly what you're saying.

However, now I'm scratching my head because Cliff Van Zant was just on Abrams and said something about 'blunt force trauma' and that's the first I've heard about that!

Maybe I need some more caffeine too. ;)

Has anyone heard anything about blunt force trauma being the cause of death? :confused:

[KatherineQ]

I haven't really heard any cause of death, except the cops look really shell-shocked at the brutality. Blunt force trauma would maybe cause them to react that way - it sounds horrid.

Another aside, I saw the dad's picture - I think his name is Stephen Groene - does anyone else think he looks like a meth user? Maybe he just looks that way . .

[chicoliving]

I think the discussion was along the line of a drug or money retaliatory murder and the non disclosure of the causes of death. Up close and personal is a term I heard one of the TH's mention and in light of the "no one said they were shot" comment the use of a knife or other type weapon that would cause this amount of blood was being knocked about.

[KatherineQ]

Here it is. Blunt impact trauma to the head of all three victims. I really, really hope they catch whoever did this. God.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html

[dannyodie]

from time to time while reading all that is being put out there, they say there was a lot of blood. including blood splatter all over, of course blood splatter can be produced by gun shots as well, but also a beating can produce blood splatter too. nancy grace show last night said something that some blood was found on the front door knob, I wonder if there was a faint finger print in the blood smear? this does seem to be a crime that would indicate that it is someone they knew. I still believe this could have a drug connection, maybe even a threat by one of the murder victims to turn someone in for producing meth? how close was the nearest home from the murder scene? if a gun was used, why tie up the victims at all. most murders that happen with guns the victims are just shot and left there. if a gun was used then the perp could have had one victim tie up the other one until there was only one left for him to tie up. the fact that these people was tied up is very strange and done so for a reason. other wise there would have had to be two of them. I wonder if the knots that were tied were the same configuration? the police haven't really said if rope was used or electrical cords, phone cord or zip ties. this could have been someone after only the boyfriend so instead of making him leave the house to take him off and murder him, this would leave others that could Identify the perp, so all of the ones there were killed so not to leave a witness. with so many kidnappings in this nation, the kids were probably taken to either trade for drugs or the perp figured that after what all he just did child abduction and rape would not make things any worse if he were caught. the fact that the children haven't been located is a horrible sign to me. if they are being held somewhere, I am sure they are being tortured or even worse. I hope that the one they have in custody is the one, or knows something about it, maybe he tied them up and took the kids and someone else came in and did the killing. I wonder why a car door was left open, did the perp look in it for something? or was someone trying to run when all this started? and then pulled back inside the home? hopefully these children and the perp are located.

[ShowerSinger]

Remember the Bible & Freeman girls who were abducted, after the one girl's parents were killed, and their home burned or something, and it turned out that the Alabama serial killer guy admitted to abducting them? Wasn't he saying something like he went there for a drug deal or something?

[Liz]

Here it is. Blunt impact trauma to the head of all three victims. I really, really hope they catch whoever did this. God.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html


Thanks, Katherine. I knew Cliff Van Zant sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

I just wonder IF Captain Wolfinger is even aware that the coroner released that information. I have a feeling he doesn't and that he is not going to be very pleased about it, either.

[ShowerSinger]

What were the mom, and boyfriends occupations? Anyone know? Someone from work go to the barbecue?

[kahskye]

The car door left open and bloody doorknob could be that someone did try to escape and was brought back into the house. Maybe the victim grabbed the doorknob in desperation to keep from being pulled back inside. Maybe that's when the victims were bound.

For all of you websleuthers w/ experience, wouldn't the DNA have been checked immediately on the blood to see if the children were also murdered at the home? Maybe I missed that this was done right away and they are just waiting on results. It seems that knowing this ASAP would save alot of time looking for two children thought abducted.

[Liz]

I think it's in that latest Fox release that McKenzie was the main support for the family. I would think 'dad' would be responsible for child support though.

Just saw an interview of Jesse's fiance, Corina Tosh, 19, and she said she couldn't wait to become part of that family. She said they liked to party but felt that people were making the victims out to be bad people, which she didn't agree with. Corina thinks they are very good and loving people. She was especially distraught at the thought of anyone having harmed the children. Said she just didn't know what she was going to do, if someone had harmed them. She babysat them all the time.

She and Jesse both lived there for awhile last year, while they saved up money to get their own place.

[Nchadwickaz]

Honestly, Immediate thought same about dad when I saw him. I immediatly thought something went down that night at the BBQ -- Had not heard that aspect until today -- odd. But now that I think about it, and resort back to how they think, that BBQ was probably part their crime -- that would have been the perfect opportunity for someone that they thought was close to them arrange this -- as an opportunity to get those kids out, to keep them preoccupied enough, and to arrange for the people committing the crime to get in -- think about having a party/BBQ you are expecting people to be at the door, or ent