UK-Mystery Briton Doesn't Speak, Plays Piano

[annemc2]

Anybody catch this story out of London? very interesting - I hope they find out who this guy is soon!


LONDON (AP) - Hospital authorities caring for a patient who refuses to talk but willingly plays the piano for hours said Tuesday they were investigating a number of new leads about his identity.

The tall, blond-haired man, who is in his 20s or early 30s, has not said a word since he was found, distressed and dressed in a dripping wet suit, on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent county, southeast England, on April 7.

When staff at the Medway Maritime Hospital in Gillingham gave him writing materials, he drew detailed pictures of a grand piano and, when shown the piano in the hospital chapel, sat down and played for two hours, causing staff to nickname him "Piano Man."

read further:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050517/D8A4VM900.html

[CyberLaw]

Yeah I just read this story on the BBC.

Interesting. I hope that they find the family of this man.

I wonder if he was performing somewhere, so that is why he was in a formal suit. Or maybe he came to England for a wedding.

But apparently he does not speak and has "mental health issues." I am thinking autism. Or they are right, he could have had some sort of trauma. Or he has autism and has no current support network, surrounded by strangers, and now feels trauma.

He may have travelled from another part of the U.K. or the EU.

At least he is in a country that is very caring and has excellent medical care.

England is ab fab.

[gatetrekker44]

is the fact that ALL of the labels had been removed from ALL of his clothing(described as "cut out as opposed to being ripped out"). Almost sounds like someone may have "dumped" him and wants to make it more difficult to put a name to him. I hope I'm wrong-that would be really sad!

Bring Maura home!

[Maddy's Mom]

I hope SOMEONE can identify this poor guy! He looks so scared. I agree, he could be autistic. That would help explain the musical ability, but no speaking. Also the fact that the tags were cut from his clothes. Maybe that is something he is compulsive about?

[Richard]

It is an interesting story, if not a complete hoax. Some things just don't add up. This guy is either a very good actor, or a very unfortunate individual. Certainly has an artistic ability to draw and to play the piano.

[Maybe So]

It is an interesting story, if not a complete hoax. Some things just don't add up. This guy is either a very good actor, or a very unfortunate individual. Certainly has an artistic ability to draw and to play the piano.

I have to say the same thing crossed my mind. that it is an elaborate hoax to gain fame or publicity.

[sharon25]

I have to say the same thing crossed my mind. that it is an elaborate hoax to gain fame or publicity.
Do you think he would've known that it would've gotten him
*this* much attention though??

I'm hoping that this isn't the case.

Also- I wonder if they have just tried to show him
flashcards of places.
Or pictures of places.

this is definitely very strange though

[jodierenee]

A Polish man in Rome has identified the "Piano Man" as a French street musician called Steven Villa Masson.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4557619.stm

[sharon25]

A Polish man in Rome has identified the "Piano Man" as a French street musician called Steven Villa Masson.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4557619.stm

ok.. let me first just say sorry to anyone I might offend..

"Italian police said the Polish man, a street mime artist, said he had worked with the "Piano Man" in Nice."

:D I wonder if he mimed everything.... :doh:


waiting to get the boooo's :D

in all seriousness i hope they find out who this young man is
and I hope the 'trauma' that they talk about is something
he witnessed as opposed to something he did.

[Lili]

Ok, Booooo - Hisssssss. :D To be honest, that was about my first thought also. Umm...A MIME told him...! Ok.
:slap:

[christine2448]

is the fact that ALL of the labels had been removed from ALL of his clothing(described as "cut out as opposed to being ripped out"). Almost sounds like someone may have "dumped" him and wants to make it more difficult to put a name to him. I hope I'm wrong-that would be really sad!

Bring Maura home!
As another posted said, maybe autisism, this could surely explain the tags missing, my neighbors son is autisitic and she has to cut all of his tags out because it annoys him...also the no speaking is another clue to autism, if that's what is is. Not all autistic people cannot speak, but some can't.

[redeskimo]

They know who he is now . A french street musician. Someone has identified him. So did he swimm across the channel ? what has happened to him .I'll let you all know as soon as I find out .

[sharon25]

They know who he is now . A french street musician. Someone has identified him. So did he swimm across the channel ? what has happened to him .I'll let you all know as soon as I find out .are you talking about the mime that said he knew who he was?

also found this

"Hospital chaplain the Rev. Steve Spencer said the man "is not the virtuoso that he has been portrayed in the press. He knows a small number of tunes and plays them over and over -- I recognized some John Lennon and a snippet from Tchaikovsky's 'Swan Lake.'"

There is no doubt that this man is extremely distressed and depressed," said Camp, the social worker. "He has started crying over the last week or so. It may be that some sort of trauma has made him like this."

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/05/16/england_tries_to_id_mystery_piano_man/

[Richard]

A Polish man in Rome has identified the "Piano Man" as a French street musician called Steven Villa Masson.
This Mime must be one of the all time greats! Can you imagine the difficulty of being Polish and acting out to an Italian cop this French name? Sounds like one of Inspector Clouseau's skits. But what was the Mime REALLY trying to say?

[Maybe So]

They know who he is now . A french street musician. Someone has identified him. So did he swimm across the channel ? what has happened to him .I'll let you all know as soon as I find out .

Perhaps he was victimized (robbed) by someone who thought it would be funny to dump him across the channel with no id on him?

By street musician do they mean he is like a homeless person who plays for money? or merely a musician who makes a living playing on the street for tourists?

I wonder could he speak before or has he always been unable to speak?

Why didn't any family come forward?

Strange!

[amandab]

Possibly identified:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005220809,00.html

Shades of "A Brilliant Mind" here....

[mysteriew]

looks like you have the info, but I will post mine anyway

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1116452793913_18/?hub=World

[CyberLaw]

I hope I have not misunderstood what people think Mime's are. But Mime's can talk. Miming is just a artistic display.

They have no "evidence' this person is the person that the Mime' claims him to be.

The hosptial wants proof........I would too.

His clothes were soaking wet when they found him, he could have been a victim of "yobs" and they pushed him in the water and tried to drown him. Or he could have gotten caught in the "English" rain.

The Queen is visiting Canada.......and it rained......oh well.....

[Lili]

]I hope I have not misunderstood what people think Mime's are. But Mime's can talk. Miming is just a artistic display.[/u]

They have no "evidence' this person is the person that the Mime' claims him to be.

The hosptial wants proof........I would too.

His clothes were soaking wet when they found him, he could have been a victim of "yobs" and they pushed him in the water and tried to drown him. Or he could have gotten caught in the "English" rain.

The Queen is visiting Canada.......and it rained......oh well.....
:D I think we were just joshin' about the Mime. At least I know it is an artistic display! I wonder if they might bring this Mime to visit him, if they worked together for 5 years, this guy might just recognize him! It may be a break-through for him.

[sharon25]

:D I think we were just joshin' about the Mime. At least I know it is an artistic display! I wonder if they might bring this Mime to visit him, if they worked together for 5 years, this guy might just recognize him! It may be a break-through for him.
yea, we were joking. If the guy that came forward with information could not talk for real, I wouldn't have posted anything at all funny.

hopefully someone will come forward with a picture and then we'll know for sure who he is.

but What happened to him?? And why isn't he talking? What kind of drastic event would have to happen to just shut someone down like that??

[sharon25]

I just a read a story in the National Post.

The person that the Mime thought he was, is not.

The Mime I.D. the man, but the brother of the man told the press: He is not my brother, I just saw my brother yesterday.

They are checking out other people who "claim" they know who he is.

I don't know what happened to him, but if depends on what "mental state" he was in before some Trauma may have be fallen him.

That is just a guess.

Also, the reason that the tags from his clothes may have been removed is that someone does not want him identified through his clothing.

Tags, especially in Europe can I.D. country and region.

Also the possibility, that someone was caring for him. Could not anymore or would not anymore, dropped him off in a country that would and could care for him.

Or he may have been staying with a person in the U.K., and that person has abandonded him.

That would cause a "vulnerable" person trauma, big time.

I hate to think that.....but it is a possibility.
you have some really great ideas.
I hope the local LE is thinking like this as well.

maybe with time this man will open up and tell us who he is

[CyberLaw]

Thank you, Sharon.

Because he has a great deal of anxiety when someone he does not know approaches him, that is very indictive of autism.

I am hoping for the best possible outcome of this, I really am.

[mrs4point0]

An interesting article:

Mystery Piano Man may be Toronto's Mr Nobody

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/18726394?source=Evening%20Standard

[CyberLaw]

That is a great article, I slightly remember this from previous years.

Canada did not quite know what to do with this guy.

it was like: Where do we send him back to exactly when we don't know where he is from......

I hope this is not a hoax.......

[sharon25]

That is a great article, I slightly remember this from previous years.

Canada did not quite know what to do with this guy.

it was like: Where do we send him back to exactly when we don't know where he is from......

I hope this is not a hoax.......
I guess anything is possible these days.
I really hope this doesn't turn out to be a hoax.

If it is, it was really well done!

I don't think it is though.. but I was wrong the last time :doh:

[CyberLaw]

I hope it is not a hoax either, but this Mr. Nobody really played Canada(no pun intended).

[mysteriew]

He said authorities have had more than 700 calls and 150 e-mails offering information, "and this will take time to work through. We are unable to confirm reports about his identity at this time."

Social workers said a tip from a Polish mime living in Italy, who said the man is a French street musician, proved false. Dariusz Dydymski had said he was "99 percent certain" the pianist was named Steven Villa Massone, but Massone was found living in Nice, France.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_story.asp?category=1103&slug=Piano%20Man

[mrs4point0]

A little more info, but not much:

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,15312053%255E912,00.html

[ShowerSinger]

Tomas Strnad. A former bandmate from a rock group identified him. Says he was classically trained, and a keyboard player in the group Ropotamo. The hospital is bringing in a Czeck interpreter to confirm. 250 people in Czeck say it's him.

[luthersmama]

Sounds like a good lead, but it remains unconfirmed so far:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4591415.stm

[mysteriew]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/world/3204253

Until Sunday, hospital authorities had not made any comment on the possible Prague connection, but after stories ran this weekend in the British press, the hospital issued a statement saying it was a noteworthy development.

The statement, attributed to a spokesman from the Kent and Medway National Health Service Trust, said: "At this stage it is not possible to confirm the identity of Mr. X, but it is fair to say this is a significant lead. The trust will however continue to work with the police to review and investigate the rest of the information that people have supplied.

"The trust now plans to bring in a Czech interpreter. Mr. X continues to be cared for by the trust, his physical health remains good and his mental health continues to be assessed."

[mysteriew]

Two days after officials in Britain said they might have a "significant lead" in their search for the identity of the mysterious patient known as the "Piano Man," Czech musician Tomas Strnad emerged in Prague to say it was a case of mistaken identity.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0506010252jun01,1,4739237.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

[sharon25]

It's like he just fell in the river from a space ship or something ;)

poor guy! I wonder if they will ever figure out who he is

[Jenn]

I wonder that too! It is sooooo mysterious. As if from thin air. SOMEBODY has to know who this fellow is!

[CyberLaw]

There is something that does not seem "right" here.

ThisisLondon - May 19, 2005 By Katharine Barney And Oliver Finegold, Evening Standard

He had no wallet and, in a slight Yorkshire accent, he said he had no idea who he was. Doctors diagnosed amnesia.

Now he has not said a word. That could be because his accent would be recognized in England. Amnesia can be faked no problem, especially by someone who has experience in "conning" people.

There are striking similarities between him and the man found on 7 April on the Isle of Sheppey. The two are the same age, with dyed blonde hair. All labels had been torn from their clothes and both had lost their memory.

I find it very hard to believe that two people of the same age, with the same colour of hair with labels missing from their clothes and both had memory lost would not be the same person. That stretches my logic.......

Mr Skeid's attempts to apply for a British and Canadian passports have failed and with no identity he cannot work.

So he is supported by the "social system" instead of working and supporting himself. "Playing on people sympathy and emotions" is the con itself and also the "control" and "manipulation" aspect.



Detective Stephen Bone of Toronto police said he was suspicious of Mr Skeid's motives.

"I believed he deceived me in 1999 and continues to deceive authorities."

Who knows what his motives are: Free ride in life, conning people, manipulation, who knows.

After all of this time: Not one person worldwide has come forward, not one caregiver, not one former teacher, friend, neighbour, relative, past employer, social service provider, not anyone.

This just does not sound "legit" to me, especially after the amount of time that has gone by.

Something just does not add up........

[sharon25]

There is something that does not seem "right" here.

ThisisLondon - May 19, 2005 By Katharine Barney And Oliver Finegold, Evening Standard

He had no wallet and, in a slight Yorkshire accent, he said he had no idea who he was. Doctors diagnosed amnesia.

Now he has not said a word. That could be because his accent would be recognized in England. Amnesia can be faked no problem, especially by someone who has experience in "conning" people.

There are striking similarities between him and the man found on 7 April on the Isle of Sheppey. The two are the same age, with dyed blonde hair. All labels had been torn from their clothes and both had lost their memory.

I find it very hard to believe that two people of the same age, with the same colour of hair with labels missing from their clothes and both had memory lost would not be the same person. That stretches my logic.......
Did the article mention what had happened to the other man??
Did they ever find out who he was?? and if not why did they let him
go?

I think it's really odd as well.
two men, who look the same, with the same labels removed???
sounds fishy to me

[CyberLaw]

The reason he was "let go" was that he was let out of Prison after being convicted of immigration offences. He was an illegal alien.

He had no passport so he could not travel. He had lawyers working for him and he received "welfare".

He was granted a temporary 18 months citizenship in Canada in 1999-2000, but it did not allow him to leave Canada.

I feel that he "expects" not to be identified in Britain, like in Canada. His appearance is apparently "not natural", possibly to hinder any further identification.

In Canada he also had unusual talent: He spoke French, italian and LATIN.

In Toronto, he dropped out of nowhere and showed up at the hospital. Just like he dropped out of no where in Britain.

He has apparently changed his name a couple of time. He "suddenly" remember his name, but nothing else.

Canada did not keep track of him. The last anyone knew is that he was living in Victoria, B.C.

If it is the same man, he would have needed ID. and a Passport to LEAVE Canada.

What do you think of the two pictures? Please note the eyes.

http://www.ukpsychics.com/temp/philipstaufen.jpg (http://www.ukpsychics.com/archive105.html)


http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1298313.jpg (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13351222,00.html)

[Neptune'sMom]

W5 did an entire show on this guy - Staufen. I've watched it a couple of times. He married his lawyer's daughter and she was continuing his legal battles. Yes I believe they have moved to the west coast.

[CyberLaw]

Did you look at the pictures?

The Fifth Estate - CBC News.

July 15, 1998

A model in England uses a passport with name "Georges Lecuit".
(see a release (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/mrnobody/model_release.pdf) signed by "Georges Lecuit" for British photographer Hywel Williams .pdf)
August 17, 1998
The real Georges Lecuit, in Paris, reports his passport stolen.

February, 1999
A man using the same passport (Georges Lecuit) appears in video titled, "Crush".

November 28, 1999
A man walks into Toronto General Hospital
He gives the name 'Philip Staufen', birth date of June 7, 1975. He's released after several hours with a diagnosis: Post-concussive Global Amnesia.

Toronto Detective Stephen Bone is called in.
December 17, 1999
Staufen spends 2 months with sympathetic Ontario couple.

January, 2000
Medical experts offer Staufen free amnesia therapy. He refuses.

Spring-Fall 2000
Staufen lives in Toronto, then spends 3 weeks in Montreal

Staufen moves to Vancouver, meets lawyer Manuel Azevedo and his daughter, Nathalie Herve-Azevedo.

Manuel Azevedo takes Staufen's case and agrees to assist him in obtaining Canadian citizenship.
February 15, 2001
In an affidavit, Staufen claims he was unconscious for several days in hospital. He outlines his activities since he 'woke up' at the hospital in Toronto and pleads for Canadian citizenship which would enable him to work and to travel internationally to search for his identity.
(read the affidavit (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/mrnobody/staufen_affidavit.pdf) .pdf)

May 28, 2001
B.C. court denies Staufen's petition for a birth certificate.

June 5, 2001
Minister Elinor Caplan offers a "Minister's Permit" to stay and work in Canada for 18 months. Staufen refuses.

June 15, 2001
Staufen signs a second affidavit. Then, Azevedo's office issues a press release (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/mrnobody/appeal.pdf)(.pdf) announcing Staufen's hunger strike.

June, 2001
Gay porn editor, Sean Spence, offers Manuel and Nathalie Herve-Azevedo evidence that Staufen was a porn model in Britain. Nathalie rejects it.

July 3, 2001
Sean Spence sends pictures of the gay porn model known as Georges Lecuit to Detective Bone.

July 13, 2001
Staufen and Nathalie marry in Vancouver. That same month, Staufen accepts the Minister's Permit, backdated to July 5.

July 17, 2001
After wedding, and Spence's information, Manuel Azevedo quits the case.

August 29, 2001
Staufen loses his appeal for a birth certificate.

September 4, 2001
Immigration officials note that Philip has surgically altered his nose.

October 25, 2001
Staufen changes his name to "Keith Ryan".
Early 2002
Changes name again to "Sywald Skeid".

October, 2002
New immigration minister says Staufen's permit will not be renewed.

January, 2003
Skeid's permit expires. Herve and Skeid move to Ottawa, then Montreal.

September, 2003
Herve and Skeid move to Halifax.

Mid-February, 2004
Detective Stephen Bone receives information that the real Georges Lecuit reported his passport stolen in a Break and Enter on August 17, 1998.

April 28, 2004
Skeid is called to Immigration office in Halifax, arrested and jailed.
April 30, 2004
Immigration adjudicator extends Skeid's time in jail for one week.

May 7, 2004
Skeid is released with conditions. (read the Order For Release (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/mrnobody/orderforrelease.pdf) .pdf)

October 4, 2004
In Halifax, Skeid almost misses deadline to report to Immigration. Then turns up at Immigration in Victoria, BC.

He was also jailed for a year because without any verifable identity he was deemed an "illegal alien" which he was.



British photographer, Hywell Williams, recalls a man with a plan to make it in North America.

"There was a purpose...his plan of action was to leave the country and go to the States to make some porn films. And he was exceptional in that, I felt, he had a plan of action."
THE EVIDENCE


-Both men are the same age -Have the same striking look -Both have dyed blond hair -Both had labels torn from their clothing -Both are unusually gifted -Both suffering from amnesia

[Neptune'sMom]

Yes I looked at the pictures. No I don't think they are the same guy.

I think the $64,000.00 question is:

where is Staufen now? If he can't be located anywhere else, then sure, he may be the Piano Man.

[CyberLaw]

From the Mirror.co.uk - May 19, 2005 - Paul Byme, Jan Disley

(Mr. Nobody)Last known to be living in Victoria, British Columbia he appears to have gone missing.

Nathalie, who said last year "I didn't choose to fall in love. It just happened " is believed to be in Portugal, the country of her birth, to fix a visa for him.


So this guy shows up in Britain and Mr. Nobody is missing from Victoria B.C. and his wife is in Portugal.


Mr.Nobody has not come forward and said: Hey this person is not me. This is where I am living, here is my picture. You can see this guy in Britian does not look like me


But the people that came forward and said Mr. Piano man is a particular person, have come forward and said that they are not him and provided a location where they are living.


So I am getting more and more convinced each day that this is a scam.


The picture especially the eyes and the porno picture is strikingly similar. Remember he has altered his look, blond is not his natural colour.


So why has Mr. Nobody not come forward........?


It is not like he has ever been Media shy.

Or it could be a "copycat" who is using the same technique as Mr. Nobody because Mr. Nobody was supported by his wife and the "state", and Mr. Piano Man can be supported for as long as he scams, or he could be an illegal alien who came ashore and refuses to speak as it would ID where he came from.


Interesting........

[Jack]

Hmmm..., same brow line, possibly same blunt shaped right ear lobe. Cheek bone structure doesn't appear same, but that could be the difference in lighting and/or the way his head is turned. Could be, possibly.

[CyberLaw]

Theories abound, some people near where he "suddenly" showed up seem to think that he may be an illegal alien who came ashore. If he does speak it would ID the country where he is from and he would be sent back posthaste

People may know who he is but because making the illegal and often dangerous trip to Britain is a brave measure, they are not saying anything. Because if they came forward and said this is so and so from this country, well Britain would act upon it.

So people keep quiet, for their safety and his.

After all where he "suddenly" appeared is right near shipping lanes and people often hear speedboats at night.

That would explain why he was wet and the clothing labels removed from his clothes.

Or not.

[emma l]

Just for my 2 cents worth.................. I am british and theres been a lot of media coverage about this case over here. I think its pretty much regarded as some kind of con......... Somebody cut the labels out of his clothes- and the probability is that it was him!! The general census in the newspapers I've read is that he's not speaking through choice as well....................

[CyberLaw]

Well he can certainly read well. The "methods" that he has used are almost identical to Mr. Nobody in Canada.

Except Mr. Nobody could not "remember" where he was from, and Mr. Piano just does not speak. Different methods, same results.

But he is being well taken care of........by the Government and taxpayers, just like Mr. Nobody in Canada is taken care of by his wife and the Canadian Government.

[mysteriew]

Wouldn't they have run Mr. Nobody's prints when they were searching to identify him? I wonder if anyone has tried to match the prints with Canada?

[Neptune'sMom]

Wouldn't they have run Mr. Nobody's prints when they were searching to identify him? I wonder if anyone has tried to match the prints with Canada?That's a very good point! Absolutely Mr. Nobody in Canada had his prints taken, and absolutely Mr. Piano Man had HIS prints taken and yepper...they'd have been entered into the international fingerprint database.

[sharon25]

Wouldn't they have run Mr. Nobody's prints when they were searching to identify him? I wonder if anyone has tried to match the prints with Canada?
excellent point!! :)

it could also be someone who read or heard about the guy from Canada? And decided to give it a go and try it out as well.
Only he decided that he wouldn't speak for a while, maybe until he learns the language?? (If he doesn't already know english?)

[CyberLaw]

If a person does not have a criminal record, then the prints will not be on record in any country worldwide.

I am not aware of an international fingerprint database.

I know Canada cannot access the USA database and vice versa.

Who knows if the person is from Russia, Australia, Canada, Mexico, England, Poland, Germany, Scotland, Spain, Italy, France.

All of these databases would all have to be connected. The complexity and co-operation of this would be mindbogling.

I am not aware of a method of that.

Also a person has to volunteer fingerprints, you just can't take them. That is if a person is not under arrest and charged with a crime.

Good idea though.

[Neptune'sMom]

If a person does not have a criminal record, then the prints will not be on record in any country worldwide.

I am not aware of an international fingerprint database.

I know Canada cannot access the USA database and vice versa.

Who knows if the person is from Russia, Australia, Canada, Mexico, England, Poland, Germany, Scotland, Spain, Italy, France.

All of these databases would all have to be connected. The complexity and co-operation of this would be mindbogling.

I am not aware of a method of that.

Also a person has to volunteer fingerprints, you just can't take them. That is if a person is not under arrest and charged with a crime.

Good idea though.
I didn't think we were talking about 2 men with criminal records. It's about 2 men who were 'found' and could not say who they were or where they were from. It's standard procedure in these cases to gather whatever identifying information you could get, including taking their fingerprints to check against missing persons. Heck they send their photos around to worldwide media. Let's not forget this man is in another country and we know all about the case here in North America. I have no doubt that every avenue available to law enforcement and health care professionals is being, if not already, explored.

Regarding an international finger print data base, Interpol comes to mind. But I was making reference to the cooperation amongst police departments.


As for Canada not accessing the American database and vice versa, they have been known to be cooperative with each other on cases. Let's not forget the cooperation demonstrated by both American and Canadian police forces regarding the 'Disney' child porn victim.

[lostfaith]

Wow, this is still a mystery!

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=29&art_id=vn20050809071100763C979377

[Paradise]

I think it's really funny how NO ONE has come forward yet. He has to have a family...