Shasta and Dylan Continued

[tybee204]

New thread.

[Sheromom]

Wasn't the Amber Alert for these children only recently extended into Canada? It seems funny they would extend it only to cancel it. Or maybe it is still active in Canada but not here?

[MysteryAddict]

Been looking all over for this continuation of the case!

Anyhow, I've been learning most of my info here on WS and the latest is that the dog at the house which did not attack belonged to Vance. That fits with my previous theory that he was involved in trying to "rescue the younger kids" from that house where he knew about the Meth use.
Questions-
Who did Vance go to live with when he left his Mom's house?
What was his alibi for the time of the murders?
Has anyone seen an interview with both Steve and Vance present?
What was their interaction like?
You know it wouldn't be the first time a brother lost it and killed a brother!!
Thanks for any answers to my questions.

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

Been looking all over for this continuation of the case!

Anyhow, I've been learning most of my info here on WS and the latest is that the dog at the house which did not attack belonged to Vance. That fits with my previous theory that he was involved in trying to "rescue the younger kids" from that house where he knew about the Meth use.
Questions-
Who did Vance go to live with when he left his Mom's house?
What was his alibi for the time of the murders?
Has anyone seen an interview with both Steve and Vance present?
What was their interaction like?
You know it wouldn't be the first time a brother lost it and killed a brother!!
Thanks for any answers to my questions.

That's an interesting catch. I hadn't thought about that. I know alot of people who have been posting on this case don't believe Vance had anything to do with the killings, based on his demeanor and interviews. I haven't seen him being interviewed, so I can't say why that is.

I don't know that I believe he had anything to do with it, but I can't shake the thought that he knows more than we are aware of. I hope he has shared all he knows with LE, but we can only speculate as to whether he did or not.

JMO

[SauerKraut]

Someone had a theory on the previous thread that the older kid got out of the car and ended up being killed because he was a witness. This sounds very plausible. I just can't understand two kids being missing and one murdered, there has to be some link with why he was killed, either he was using and was involved somehow, or he was simply a witness. :confused:

The police seems to be treading very cautiously in this case and I have to think they know, probably from Vance or the father, who took these kids. But they don't want to give out info for fear the kids then get killed. I don't believe them saying they don't know who took them, I think they absolutely know. If this was a question of solving a murder, they would publish names and descriptions. But they can't do this now because these kids are being kept as bait for them not to be implicated in the murders. The perpetrators know, as long as they have these kids, they can remain at large. I think once they are located, the cops will move in to get the kids. But they aren't even sure where they took off to. The police are only giving clues about the kids or what other people call in with, and they will play it cool until someone has to make the next move. Does this make sense?

Also, was there blood leading to the car, did they ever say more about the car door being left open. I think it's odd that there would be blood on the outside of the house door unless.... If someone was attacked at the door, it could be because they answered the door and were attacked immediately (which throws off the theory that they were just there looking for answers or for where the drugs are hidden and then later flew into a rage and killed them) OR it means someone was injured, went out to the car and was dragged back in (they tried to escape so now they were tied up.) It just doesn't make sense for the perpetrator to have blood all over themselves and leave the house that way, nor would it seem likely that they would COVER the door just by leaving the house. A little blood maybe, but not like the way that neighbor described it. I guess they can tell if there are spots leading from the car, back to the front of the house.

Also, the fact that the door was closed is weird to me for some reason. If you are the murderer, you want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. Wouldn't there be prints on the knob, or did they use gloves? The closing of this door makes me think that it was someone who closed it out of habit from closing it many times before....

:confused:

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

Someone had a theory on the previous thread that the older kid got out of the car and ended up being killed because he was a witness.

If I understand correctly, this is based on the car door being open and an unverified report that someone heard that a neighbor reported hearing someone yell "get back in the car".

I have a little bit of trouble with the basis of the theory. I just can't see why the killer(s) would have the children to wait in a car that they weren't going to be leaving in. I'm more inclined to believe that the car door being open is more likely indicative of someone coming home to the melee and rushing into the house, or of the killer(s) looking for something in the car.

Then there's still the issue of whether or not a neighbor did, in fact, report hearing a person yell. If I've missed it somewhere, I apologize, but I haven't yet seen anyone post a link verifying that report.

[JerseyGirl]

It just doesn't make sense for the perpetrator to have blood all over themselves and leave the house that way, nor would it seem likely that they would COVER the door just by leaving the house.
The neighbor had said something like "there's blood all over the door". I don't know what that means. I don't know if there were drops or small smears or large streaks, etc. (Does anyone have that info?) But from what we've heard, it was a very, very messy scene. I imagine that beating three people like that, you would probably be covered in blood. So it might be possible to get blood on the door on your way out ESPECIALLY if you are carrying or dragging children with you, (they could have been struggling).

In any case, the perp(s) would have to leave like that unless they stuck around to get a shower first, which isn't typical of a murderer. I seem to remember hearing that this home is very secluded and the roads through that immediate area are pretty lightly traveled. So it seems possible that they could get away without being seen even covered in blood. (Does anyone have the information on where this house is/other nearby homes, etc.?)

[JerseyGirl]

FOXNews.com - U.S. & World - Idaho Cops Urge Campers to Search for Kids (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157543,00.html)

The Memorial Day weekend will send crowds of people into the forests and campgrounds of northern Idaho, and law officers on Tuesday asked them to keep an eye out for two abducted children missing for more than a week...

The FBI is sending 30 additional employees to the area to help in the search, including experts in child abductions, Wolfinger said. They will join some 40 investigators from various agencies already on the case.

Some 1,000 tips have been phoned in so far, ranging from possible sightings of the children to "I drove by a field that was glowing. I think the children are there," Wolfinger said.

A public memorial service was scheduled Wednesday for Brenda Groene, 40, mother of the missing children, and Slade Groene, 13, their brother. The third person who died in the house, Mark McKenzie, 37, will have a private ceremony...

[JerseyGirl]

Here's the satellite image of their home and the surrounding area:

GlobeXplorer ImageAtlas (http://imageatlas.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/view.do) - it didn't work when I clicked the link. You have to put the address in to see the image: 12725 Frontage Road, Coeur d Alene, ID. (Do not put an apostrophe after the d.) From a farther view, you can see that it's very, very rural. Image was as of August 1998.

I've also just read that Brenda Kay Groene "also went by her maiden name, Matthews, after she and Steven Groene divorced".

Coeur d'Alene Press (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/news01.txt)

[JerseyGirl]

There are several listings for Groene in Idaho. I wonder if this family has lived in the area for a while. How old is Vance? There's a Troy Groene, born in 1975, listed at 3 different addresses. I wonder if they're family, and if the family in the region is close.

[SauerKraut]

The neighbor had said something like "there's blood all over the door". I don't know what that means. I don't know if there were drops or small smears or large streaks, etc. (Does anyone have that info?) But from what we've heard, it was a very, very messy scene. I imagine that beating three people like that, you would probably be covered in blood. So it might be possible to get blood on the door on your way out ESPECIALLY if you are carrying or dragging children with you, (they could have been struggling).

In any case, the perp(s) would have to leave like that unless they stuck around to get a shower first, which isn't typical of a murderer. I seem to remember hearing that this home is very secluded and the roads through that immediate area are pretty lightly traveled. So it seems possible that they could get away without being seen even covered in blood. (Does anyone have the information on where this house is/other nearby homes, etc.?)

It's true, I don't think they would shower. I would think at least try to leave with as little blood on them as possible. But why bother closing the door?

Have they ever said anything about a murder weapon? Is it possible they could ask Vance, once they know what it is exactly, if it was something owned by the family or that the murderer(s) brought it with them.

If the kids were in the house when all this was going on, then they wouldn't be out in the car waiting.

This whole thing is such a mystery. There is something about it that just bothers me. For such a horrific crime, they seem to be giving out very little information to the public. It's not like the family lived in LA. With these drugs and "a lot of activity" at the house as was reported by the Camp lady, NO ONE has any suggestions on who it could be? It just does not make sense. And now they have this "silent witness" reward. I suspect there are some names being thrown around behind the scenes.

[mysteriew]

People do many things out of habit. It is early spring in Idaho. Still cold at times. People are in the habit of closing doors. If there was any thought to that at all, a closed door would keep a casual visitor from seeing the scene, and thus delay having the crime found out too early.

[Pharlap]

Wasn't the Amber Alert for these children only recently extended into Canada? It seems funny they would extend it only to cancel it. Or maybe it is still active in Canada but not here?

I heard that on court tv to. Why did they cancel the amber alert?:waitasec:
Anyone know?

[JerseyGirl]

LE said that they've used it to it's fullest, and don't want to abuse it. It was used early on to get the kids' names & photos to the public which has been accomplished at this point.

[JerseyGirl]

Have they ever said anything about a murder weapon? Is it possible they could ask Vance, once they know what it is exactly, if it was something owned by the family or that the murderer(s) brought it with them.
The only thing that I've heard is that the murder weapon was NOT found at the scene.

And now they have this "silent witness" reward.
I was wondering about this, too. I would think that it's customary though.

[Pharlap]

LE said that they've used it to it's fullest, and don't want to abuse it. It was used early on to get the kids' names & photos to the public which has been accomplished at this point.To me it sounds like the LE got the results dna back and maybe the missing kids blood has matched....:confused:
I have never heard of anyone canceling an amber alert EVER.....enless the kids were found....

[Shadow205]

I'm not sure what to think about the Amber Alert being cancelled. It could be for the reason stated or it could be that they know that they are now looking for bodies. They have had time to get some of the DNA results by now.

[JerseyGirl]

To me it sounds like the LE got the results dna back and maybe the missing kids blood has matched....:confused:
I have never heard of anyone canceling an amber alert EVER.....enless the kids were found....
True, but like it's been said, these children never quite matched the criteria for an Amber Alert anyway. It was close to meeting the requirements but not quite. So they stretched to make it fit, and didn't want to abuse it. Perhaps so as not to desensitize people to it.

I hope it's not because blood matched. Even then they'd have no idea if it would mean that they are deceased. Maybe it's because they know who has them.

[mesnowmom123]

~snip~

This whole thing is such a mystery. There is something about it that just bothers me. For such a horrific crime, they seem to be giving out very little information to the public. It's not like the family lived in LA. With these drugs and "a lot of activity" at the house as was reported by the Camp lady, NO ONE has any suggestions on who it could be? It just does not make sense. And now they have this "silent witness" reward. I suspect there are some names being thrown around behind the scenes.
I'm with you SK - the "silent witness" reward and the e-mail address to send pics of kids spotted that may look like them - have me thinking there are certainly plenty of oddities about this case. I agree with others here - LE might be setting the stage to catch the perps, thinking the kids might still be alive.

I'm all over the place on this one - one day I have great hope, other days I feel a huge sense of dread.

[JerseyGirl]

Coeur d'Alene Press (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/news01.txt)

The three people were found dead at the home at 12725 Frontage Road about 6:45 Monday night...

Authorities said the crime scene is loaded with evidence of the killings...

Earlier in the day, detectives seized and hauled away a late-model Ford pickup from the scene...

There were unsubstantiated reports the children have been missing since Sunday. They were last seen by a neighbor Saturday afternoon...

Wolfinger said it was not immediately known there were two missing children when deputies arrived at the scene early Monday night...

"About midnight, we found out about the two kids who were involved," he said. "We tried to issue an Amber Alert, but the state said it didn't meet the criteria for an Amber Alert, so we issued a safety alert instead."

[mysteriew]

There were unsubstantiated reports the children have been missing since Sunday. They were last seen by a neighbor Saturday afternoon...

Wolfinger said it was not immediately known there were two missing children when deputies arrived at the scene early Monday night...

"About midnight, we found out about the two kids who were involved," he said. "We tried to issue an Amber Alert, but the state said it didn't meet the criteria for an Amber Alert, so we issued a safety alert instead."


I have heard this before and don't understand it. Were the kids at the BBQ on Sun.? LE is giving the impression that they were at the scene of the murders, so I have thought they were last seen on Sun. Think maybe this is just where the reporter was talking with a neighbor who mentioned that he/she saw the kids on Sat. and is not an indication that they were last seen on Sat?

[Liz]

I didn't understand why the Amber Alert was cancelled, when Capt. W was covering it this morning. I missed all the following updates, too.
I think I heard (so don't hold me to it) that the placards on the highways still say "Missing Kids, Dylan and Shasta etc", but the words "Amber Alert" were removed. I guess it was a technicality, because I had heard that Idaho's neighbor, Washington, refused to honor the Amber Alert, from the get-go.

JerseyGirl was right ... Wolfinger said the main focus of the Amber Alert was to make people aware that Shasta & Dylan were missing. He stated that the local and national media has done a good job of getting their names and pictures out there.

Captain Wolfinger said this change in the Amber Alert would not change anything about the way the investigation was being conducted.

I just learned yesterday that Dylan is also known as "DJ". :) What a cutie pie!

Praying that those two little sweethearts, Shasta and Dylan, are being well cared for; and will be returned home safely and soon!

[dannyodie]

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&Lon=-116.62080823&Lat=47.62921769&Alon=-116.62080823&Alat=47.62921769&w=1&opt=0&addr=12725+E+Frontage+Rd%2c+Coeur+d'Alene%2c+ID+83 814&qs=12725+Frontage+Road%7ccoeur+dalen%7cidaho%7c

this link might work, it is a bit better view than another poster made. if it does not work for you. go to www.terraserver.microsoft.com (http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com) and read how to pan in on an area until you can make out the state of idaho, and then you can type in where you want to look. another real good site download is made by nasa. I don't remember the link, but type in your browser address bar worldwind, don't use www in front of it.

[JerseyGirl]

Dannyodie, thanks a million for that better image! I used it on another thread just now as well. :)

[JerseyGirl]

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&Lon=-116.62080823&Lat=47.62921769&Alon=-116.62080823&Alat=47.62921769&w=1&opt=0&addr=12725+E+Frontage+Rd%2c+Coeur+d'Alene%2c+ID+83 814&qs=12725+Frontage+Road%7ccoeur+dalen%7cidaho%7cThe re's a link to some interesting additional information as well.

Neighborhood Finder Detail - MSN House & Home (http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/nf_details.aspx?search=1&zip=83814)

Population 29,269
Median Income $20,420
People per household (avg.)2.41
Neighborhood Type: Small Town
Median age: 36.6

[Liz]

5/24/05
Officers ask campers for help in locating missing kids

http://www.krem.com/sharedcontent/northwest/specialreport/stories/krem2_052405_memorial-missing.2a82dcc32.html

[JerseyGirl]

I don't think that this was posted yet - please forgive me if it was.

A guest on Nancy Grace referred to the area where the family lived as "Methamphetamine County".

Nancy asked LE (the Sheriff?) if the victims were bound before they were killed, and his response was "Well ... yes they were bound when they were found".

ETA: I've been informed that the LE official on Nancy Grace tonight was Captain Wolfinger, who may be the sheriff's spokesman. Thanks for the correct info! :)

[Liz]

I don't think that this was posted yet - please forgive me if it was.

A guest on Nancy Grace referred to the area where the family lived as "Methamphetamine County".

Nancy asked LE (the Sheriff?) if the victims were bound before they were killed, and his response was "Well ... yes they were bound when they were found".


Jersey, I think that a websleuther first posted a suggestion that possibly the victims were bound after they were murdered. Then Mark Fuhrman mentioned it on "At Large with Geraldo" on Saturday or Sunday night.

I have to admit, it's not something that would have ever occured to me, but it is a possibility.

Websleuthers are the best! :)

[1986]

Since LE is asking campers of be on the look-out for the kids, do you think that LE feels they may have run into the woods to get away from the killers? How cold does it get at night in Idaho this time of year? Our temps are in 60's so a child wouldn't be too cold. But wouldn't they have found they by now?

[JerseyGirl]

Jersey, I think that a websleuther first posted a suggestion that possibly the victims were bound after they were murdered. Then Mark Fuhrman mentioned it on "At Large with Geraldo" on Saturday or Sunday night.

I have to admit, it's not something that would have ever occured to me, but it is a possibility.

Websleuthers are the best! :)It's just that it's the first time that I heard the LE answer the question, yet change the wording in his response.

That could make things different. If it's been said that there was evidence in every room in the house, I wonder if it could be that they were all attacked separately, and then bound to make it appear "interrogation style". That could indicate a family member or friend that preferred to make it look like a drug murder. Just a theory ... I'm not convinced of anything at all in this case. :confused:

[JerseyGirl]

Since LE is asking campers of be on the look-out for the kids, do you think that LE feels they may have run into the woods to get away from the killers? How cold does it get at night in Idaho this time of year? Our temps are in 60's so a child wouldn't be too cold. But wouldn't they have found they by now?
I saw something in an article that said that LE needs to think outside of their area at this point. He also mentioned that if anyone should see anything suspicious they shouldn't touch it but should instead call LE. I'm thinking that this might possibly mean that they aren't discounting the possibility that the children could have been left outside of the area somewhere. :(

[Rle7]

Tuesday afternoon investigators said they would be searching the Fighting Creek Landfill later in the week.That landfill is located on Highway 95 south of Coeur d'Alene.They said they might begin searching there as early Thursday.

Investigators did stress they will be searching for evidence and not bodies.They said dumpsters were isolated that had trash inside them from the area of the homicide scene in the Wolf Lodge district.

Local authorities said the FBI would play a major part in the search of the landfill. An evidence recovery team will be searching through the trash at the landfill looking for evidence related to the triple homicide and authorities hope some clues to lead them to the missing children Shasta and Dylan Groene.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7970047

Maybe when LE is asking campers to look out for anything suspicious they are hoping someone finds the murder weapon or other evidence.

[Rle7]

Also anyone who thinks they may have seen Shasta or Dylan Groene, is asked to snap a picture on their cell phone or camera and E-mail the picture to:PHOTOTIPS@KCGOVTIPS@HOTMAIL.COM

[JerseyGirl]

Maybe when LE is asking campers to look out for anything suspicious they are hoping someone finds the murder weapon or other evidence.
I hope so but this line specifically states the kids. I find that very concerning:

They're also asking people going into the forests for Memorial Day weekend to keep an eye out for two abducted children.

Authorities to search landfill as FBI sends help - KHQ-TV - MSNBC.com (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7970047)

[JerseyGirl]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7970047
I found a couple of lines in your article very intriguing:

... They remain optimistic the children are alive."Eventually, we'll come to a positive resolution. We just want to find those children, somewhere, sometime real soon," said Kootenai County Sheriff Captain Ben Wolfinger...

The case is expected to pick up speed later in the week.Authorities expect a rush of evidence to come back Thursday or Friday from FBI labs in Virginia.That could help exhausted investigators that have doggedly pursued credible information into the homicides and the missing children...

[JerseyGirl]

Also anyone who thinks they may have seen Shasta or Dylan Groene, is asked to snap a picture on their cell phone or camera and E-mail the picture to:PHOTOTIPS@KCGOVTIPS@HOTMAIL.COMThis strikes me as so odd. Do you think this is because they've had a ridiculous number of "sightings" or might it be because they don't want anyone to approach them or their captor(s)? :waitasec:

[Liz]

It's just that it's the first time that I heard the LE answer the question, yet change the wording in his response.

That could make things different. If it's been said that there was evidence in every room in the house, I wonder if it could be that they were all attacked separately, and then bound to make it appear "interrogation style". That could indicate a family member or friend that preferred to make it look like a drug murder. Just a theory ... I'm not convinced of anything at all in this case. :confused:


:doh: me! I thought the reason he answered that way was because she had posed the question "if they were tied up afterwards". I am doing too much multitasking between watching multiple tv shows, researching this case, and trying to start dinner! I need to cook before my hungry bear starts growling! ;)

But, you're right, JerseyGirl. That would be the only reason someone would tie them up after killing them. To make it look like a drug / gang related execution style killing.

I'm not convinced of anything and I'm not ready to rule anyone out. Polygraph passed or not. And, I do have my suspicions, but I will withhold them for now.

[SauerKraut]

This strikes me as so odd. Do you think this is because they've had a ridiculous number of "sightings" or might it be because they don't want anyone to approach them or their captor(s)? :waitasec:

I think they are trying to get someone to squeal, and to do so in secret. I think they are hoping there is one weak link in this and they are betting it helps them in figuring out where the kids are.

I also think there is a possibility that the victims were tied up and "left" for dead, it's possible they were beaten and died of their injuries. Please tell me if there's information about this.

[Rle7]

This strikes me as so odd. Do you think this is because they've had a ridiculous number of "sightings" or might it be because they don't want anyone to approach them or their captor(s)? :waitasec:
They are probably trying to verify sightings before investigating them. Like the sighting in Maine yesterday, LE was trying to trace the caller's cell phone. I guess she didn't give them her name or phone number. It's probably time consuming to follow-up on every sighting right now.

[kahskye]

Jersey, I think that a websleuther first posted a suggestion that possibly the victims were bound after they were murdered. Then Mark Fuhrman mentioned it on "At Large with Geraldo" on Saturday or Sunday night.

I have to admit, it's not something that would have ever occured to me, but it is a possibility.

Websleuthers are the best! :)It seems to me that if they were bound after they were murdered, it could be easily determined by the blood. The way there were beaten, blood had to splatter everywhere. If they were bound first, there would be an area of skin under the binding that wouldn't have blood on it. If they were bound after they were murdered, then there would be some splattered blood on their skin or clothes under the binding.

Just my opinion trying to figure out so many unanswered questions.

[Rle7]

I think they are trying to get someone to squeal, and to do so in secret. I think they are hoping there is one weak link in this and they are betting it helps them in figuring out where the kids are.

I also think there is a possibility that the victims were tied up and "left" for dead, it's possible they were beaten and died of their injuries. Please tell me if there's information about this.
Do you mean that they were still alive after being left for dead? The coroner believes they all died quickly from their injuries.

http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5157&ContentID=x65635&Layout=KBCI.xsl&AdGroupID=x5154

[Wayne]

I wonder if the three bodies were tied up as if the perps were going to move the bodies elsewhere (landfill) but someone interrupted them or LE arrived before the perp(s) could return.

[Shadow205]

I do not like the sounds of searching the landfill.

[mysteriew]

There's a link to some interesting additional information as well.

Neighborhood Finder Detail - MSN House & Home (http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/nf_details.aspx?search=1&zip=83814)

Population 29,269
Median Income $20,420
People per household (avg.)2.41
Neighborhood Type: Small Town
Median age: 36.6

also on that page:

Violent crime risk is set at 4 with a regional and national average as 3
Property crime risk is 6 with a regional and national average as 3

http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/nf_details.aspx?search=1&zip=83814

[Liz]

1986 - The temps have been down as low as the 40°s, since the time they've been missing. Now it might be only into the high 40°s to low 50°s at night. I think they would survive, but it wouldn't be very comfortable. I sure wouldn't want to be spending the night out in this climate. Unlike me, those children don't have much fat on them, to keep them warm. ;)

kahskye - You're right that it would be easy to tell if the victims had been bound before or after they were killed. I'm sure that is part of the investigation that LE are keeping close to the vest.

[Liz]

Here are some things that Jesse Groene had to say about his little brother and sister, that really touched my heart. These kids sound like such wonderful children. Praying they are alive & well!

Dylan Groene is a typical little boy whom Jesse Groene described as "goofy and silly." Groene said that Dylan looks up to him and even got his blond hair shaved in a similar crew cut. Besides playing guitar, Dylan likes sports ? especially football. "He always wanted to cuddle, kiss and hug," Jesse Groene said about his brother. "I just love that little kid."

Jesse Groene said his sister Shasta is a "girly-girl" who loves to style her waist-length brown hair, paint her nails and listen to pop star Britney Spears. She plays with dolls and loves being pampered by her older brothers.
"She was cool being the only girl because she didn't have to share her stuff," Jesse Groene said.

Source:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:XmINia4r4JkJ:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D70405+groene+family&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[dannyodie]

I wonder if the police looked in the creek or stream that the bridge crosses over that you can see in the image that I left a link to in my last post? if it were a ball bat or something of wood it would naturally float, maybe it would be hung up on the shoreline somewhere? I feel that the person that has them may be out of state. either washington or montana. but lets all hope and pray they are still in the area.

[JerseyGirl]

I think they are trying to get someone to squeal, and to do so in secret. I think they are hoping there is one weak link in this and they are betting it helps them in figuring out where the kids are.
Okay, this is far-fetched but is it possible that they've got some behind-the-scenes negotiations going on? They cancelled the Amber Alert, they give this address where "people" can send photos of the kids, and they sound pretty sure that the kids are still alive. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part ... I don't know.

I also think there is a possibility that the victims were tied up and "left" for dead, it's possible they were beaten and died of their injuries. Please tell me if there's information about this.
The only information that I know that relates to your question is that it has been said that the victims died quickly.

[JerseyGirl]

It seems to me that if they were bound after they were murdered, it could be easily determined by the blood. The way there were beaten, blood had to splatter everywhere. If they were bound first, there would be an area of skin under the binding that wouldn't have blood on it. If they were bound after they were murdered, then there would be some splattered blood on their skin or clothes under the binding.
And this is why it makes me curious that LE answered the way he did on Nancy Grace yesterday. He definitely left the door WIDE open to later release that they were bound after the attacks.

[JerseyGirl]

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:XmINia4r4JkJ:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D70405+groene+family&hl=en&ie=UTF-8Liz, what a great article ... it's so nice to see something personal & humanizing about this family! Here's a bit more from your article:

The last time Jesse Groene talked to his mom, she had just taken in a stray dog found near their Wolf Lodge Bay home because she couldn't stand to see it lonely, cold and hungry.

Brenda Groene was that way with everyone, her son said...

"I couldn't have asked for a better family..."

Jesse Groene described his family, especially his mother, as loving, supportive and caring, even though they had problems with money, drugs and alcohol.

... Jesse Groene said his mother always took in him and his oldest brother, Vance Groene, when they struggled with methamphetamine addiction. She would sometimes track the boys down, load them in the truck and take them home.

"She would never cast us out for the way we did," Jesse Groene said...

Jesse Groene said his mother has had brushes with the law and alcohol abuse, but that wasn't a part of theirfamily life...

SladeGroene was on the honor roll at Lakes Middle School and liked music, playing the violin, guitar and drums. Jesse Groene said he taught both Slade and Dylan to play guitar.

Slade had lots of friends and liked his Spanish class, Jesse Groene said.

Tosh (???) said Slade was the quiet one in the Groene family and that he liked to hunt, fish and hike...

************************************************** ********

It goes on to say that Brenda liked to garden, and that Mark was very good to all of them.

[Rle7]

Wood disputed a police report that there was a barbecue at the home May 15.

"That's one thing these guys need to understand. There was no barbecue Sunday," she said. "Mark went to Coeur d'Alene and got hamburgers and French fries and brought them back for the kids and him and Brenda.

"There's a lot of stuff that's come up that's not right, but that's to be expected. I've had a hard time adjusting to that also. The truth will come out."

Wood turned quiet for a moment and looked down at the ground. Then she looked back up.

She shared a final message for Dylan and Shasta:

"They are very much loved and missed and we need them home."

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt

Lee Wood is Mark's mother. If this is true, I wonder why Lutner said there was an outdoor cookout-type gathering?

[SauerKraut]

And this is why it makes me curious that LE answered the way he did on Nancy Grace yesterday. He definitely left the door WIDE open to later release that they were bound after the attacks.

By being left for dead, I am just wondering if the purps thought, for some crazy reason, that maybe they were not dead and tied them up to make sure they couldn't get away later. I dont' know how they couldn't know, based on how badly they were beaten, but if they were on drugs, I wonder if it's a possbility that they tied them up to make sure they wouldn't escape later.

I'm getting worse feelings about this kids now. It's been a long time for not more clues or for one kid not to escape or someone to come forward seeing them. I think it would be harder to keep two kids hostage, especially that the kids seem so smart. Or, on the other hand, the kids are with someone they know and trust. All of it is just too odd.

[SauerKraut]

Wood disputed a police report that there was a barbecue at the home May 15.

"That's one thing these guys need to understand. There was no barbecue Sunday," she said. "Mark went to Coeur d'Alene and got hamburgers and French fries and brought them back for the kids and him and Brenda.

"There's a lot of stuff that's come up that's not right, but that's to be expected. I've had a hard time adjusting to that also. The truth will come out."

Wood turned quiet for a moment and looked down at the ground. Then she looked back up.

She shared a final message for Dylan and Shasta:

"They are very much loved and missed and we need them home."

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt

Lee Wood is Mark's mother. If this is true, I wonder why Lutner said there was an outdoor cookout-type gathering?

That's weird, then why the big deal about people coming forward who attended the bb?

[dannyodie]

SOMEONE IS LYING! I AGREE, WHY BRING UP A BBQ IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THERE WASN'T ONE? MAYBE SOMEONE HIRED THIS DONE? THE POLICE MIGHT HAVE SOME GOOD IDEAS ABOUT ALL OF THIS. POLICE ALOT OF THE TIMES WILL NOT BE TRUTHFUL IF THEY FEEL THEY MIGHT BE ONTO SOMETHING IN FEAR IT MIGHT SCARE SOMEONE OFF. HOPEFULLY THEY WILL KEEP THERE EYES ON THE FAMILY OVER THE WEEKEND HOLIDAY. IN THE PAST THERE HAS BEEN FOLKS THAT WERE GUILTY OF A CRIME AND PASSED A LIE DETECTOR TEST. I AM WORRIED THAT SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED TO THE KIDS. I SURE HOPE NOT, WE ALL HAVE TO BE HOPEFUL THAT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED... SOMEONE SOMEWHERE KNOWS WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

[Rle7]

I was a little skeptical of this. Ms. Wood also said that her son (Mark) did not use hard drugs and only smoked pot. However, I thought Vance talked to Geraldo about Brenda and Mark's recreational drug use around the house, and I thought he was inferring to meth use. It would have been nice if the coroner had stated explicitly what drugs were found in the preliminary toxicology report...

On the other hand... what if the bbq story is just that... a story. I mean that neither Vance nor Jesse nor Steve seemed to know about it. The neighbors didn't notice it. LE didn't know about it until Lutner told them days after the slayings. Could those responsible have been worried about DNA and prints left at the scene, and conspired to fabricate the bbq story in order to account for their presence there that night? Even though Lutner passed a polygraph test, people have been known to fool those tests in the past, that's partially why they are usually inadmissable in courts. And while LE has cleared Lutner, they have not cleared anyone else who says they were there that night. Could LE have found inconsistencies in their stories? And Lutner is still in police custody...

Of course, it should be easy for LE to determine if there was a BBQ or if Mark had actually went for hamburgers. But that might be why they are searching the landfill, maybe someone cleaned that evidence up and threw it in the dumpster?

I know this theory is probably way off... I'm not trying to offend anyone or point fingers or call anyone a liar... I am just stating my thoughts on the subject in light of this recent info...

[Gracelin]

Maybe it was a camper from the nearby campgrounds ?? Someone who has camped there for years or long enough to develope a friendship or a grudge?
Is there any word that the dog may have been knocked out? or drugged earlier?
It could be that we are looking so hard at the family that the other usual suspects are being dismissed.

[SauerKraut]

Unfortunately, this case seems to be one of those that will just drag itself out. Information coming in is stagnating. I am convinced that someone knows something and has even told the authorities but they don't want to make it public for fear they will then kill the missing kids. Basically, I don't think the police want the purps to know they know who they are because it will only anger them and drive them further into hiding making an even worse prospect for finding the kids alive. Is it true that Lutner is in custody still? Maybe for protective reasons? If he was so close to this family as stated, he has to have SOME idea who would have a grudge with them about something? It seems strange that friends were sitting around doing meth and someone just freaked out and happened to kill the people living in the house? This was planned, there was immense revenge and it seemed to be building up for a while. In such a small town, they have to know more than what they're telling the public.

Why will the police not release time of death, the truth about some BBQ, the murder weapon, what drugs were in their system etc?
:confused:

[Rle7]

Unfortunately, this case seems to be one of those that will just drag itself out. Information coming in is stagnating. I am convinced that someone knows something and has even told the authorities but they don't want to make it public for fear they will then kill the missing kids. Basically, I don't think the police want the purps to know they know who they are because it will only anger them and drive them further into hiding making an even worse prospect for finding the kids alive. Is it true that Lutner is in custody still? Maybe for protective reasons? If he was so close to this family as stated, he has to have SOME idea who would have a grudge with them about something? It seems strange that friends were sitting around doing meth and someone just freaked out and happened to kill the people living in the house? This was planned, there was immense revenge and it seemed to be building up for a while. In such a small town, they have to know more than what they're telling the public.

Why will the police not release time of death, the truth about some BBQ, the murder weapon, what drugs were in their system etc?
:confused:
Lutner is still in police custody because he violated his probation on the unemployment fraud. He missed an appointment with his probation officer last Tuesday, I think it was.

[Et al]

Why will the police not release time of death, the truth about some BBQ, the murder weapon, what drugs were in their system etc?
:confused:

Perhaps they don't know....YET. I betcha though that marijuana was NOT the major drug in their system.

[SewingDeb]

I was a little skeptical of this. Ms. Wood also said that her son (Mark) did not use hard drugs and only smoked pot. However, I thought Vance talked to Geraldo about Brenda and Mark's recreational drug use around the house, and I thought he was inferring to meth use. It would have been nice if the coroner had stated explicitly what drugs were found in the preliminary toxicology report...

On the other hand... what if the bbq story is just that... a story. I mean that neither Vance nor Jesse nor Steve seemed to know about it. The neighbors didn't notice it. LE didn't know about it until Lutner told them days after the slayings. Could those responsible have been worried about DNA and prints left at the scene, and conspired to fabricate the bbq story in order to account for their presence there that night? Even though Lutner passed a polygraph test, people have been known to fool those tests in the past, that's partially why they are usually inadmissable in courts. And while LE has cleared Lutner, they have not cleared anyone else who says they were there that night. Could LE have found inconsistencies in their stories? And Lutner is still in police custody...

Of course, it should be easy for LE to determine if there was a BBQ or if Mark had actually went for hamburgers. But that might be why they are searching the landfill, maybe someone cleaned that evidence up and threw it in the dumpster?

I know this theory is probably way off... I'm not trying to offend anyone or point fingers or call anyone a liar... I am just stating my thoughts on the subject in light of this recent info...

I think you may be onto something here. It does make a lot of sense.

[MistyGirl]

I was a little skeptical of this. Ms. Wood also said that her son (Mark) did not use hard drugs and only smoked pot. However, I thought Vance talked to Geraldo about Brenda and Mark's recreational drug use around the house, and I thought he was inferring to meth use. It would have been nice if the coroner had stated explicitly what drugs were found in the preliminary toxicology report....
I am not suprised that Ms. Wood said that she didn't believe her son used any other drugs then pot. I mean if he was a recreational user of anything other the pot I am sure he didn't announce it to his mother..."hey guess what Mom i do meth once and a while".....if they were really just recreational users that would not raise and red flags to her (mom) that they was a drug problem etc.....It is completely possible that they did use meth or something it was just recreational.

[Timex]

Is meth a recreational use type of drug? I always thought it was one of those drugs that quickly became habit, and quickly escalated to serious problems?

[MistyGirl]

Is meth a recreational use type of drug? I always thought it was one of those drugs that quickly became habit, and quickly escalated to serious problems?
YOu are correct the majority of the users do become addicts and it becomes a sersious problem. There is small chance it that you can do recreationally....but we dont know fro sure what drug was found.....just thinking out loud.

[JerseyGirl]

Is it true that Lutner is in custody still? Maybe for protective reasons?From the article Rle7 posted:

Wood, (Mark's mother), said she kept a low profile since the death of her son, Brenda Groene and Slade Groene at their Frontage Road home.

"I've kind of kept out of the limelight because I was afraid of more retaliation or something," she said...

Coeur d'Alene Press (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt)

[Pharlap]

YOu are correct the majority of the users do become addicts and it becomes a sersious problem. There is small chance it that you can do recreationally....but we dont know fro sure what drug was found.....just thinking out loud.

Recreational...
I wouldn't have a clue what people look like when there using meth,coke or the likes.....
Can anyone inlighten me?
Boy, do I feel dumb....:doh:

[Et al]

Timex, you are right....it is HIGHLY addictive. I think with any drug the body soon becomes immune to it so the user needs more to achieve the same high.
Meth is hitting every small town everywhere. In the small town where my parents reside they have recently had a series of smash and grab break-ins. This drug is scary and the effects are none like we have seen before.

[Rle7]

I am not suprised that Ms. Wood said that she didn't believe her son used any other drugs then pot. I mean if he was a recreational user of anything other the pot I am sure he didn't announce it to his mother..."hey guess what Mom i do meth once and a while".....if they were really just recreational users that would not raise and red flags to her (mom) that they was a drug problem etc.....It is completely possible that they did use meth or something it was just recreational.
That's a good point. Most sons probably wouldn't tell their mothers they are meth addicts. And Mark may have told his mother that he was getting hamburgers for the family, but decided to have a cookout with friends later on. No other family members were invited, maybe they didn't want to invite Ms. Wood either. Mothers don't always know everything about their children.

I still think the bbq people should have come forward earlier. Even if they thought they didn't have pertinent info, they were the last to see this family alive before the murders happened.

Without more details, I find this all frustrating and confusing...

[Timex]

Thats why I have wondered when the photo of Mark was taken. I dont see a "meth addict" when I look at his photo.

[Et al]

I really think the two older boys may have owed someone money/pissed someone off and these killings were in retaliation. Why were the kids taken? Who can understand the addict(s) thoughts or actions?

[packerdog]

At the risk of repeating myself here, I think some have jumped to conclusions reguarding both of them on meth. He got a promotion, I guess he was doing well at his job that he had for many years. I get a kick out of the posters that bet he is on more than pot. How do they know? I will wait to pass judgement until they disclose the tox results.

[SauerKraut]

At the risk of repeating myself here, I think some have jumped to conclusions reguarding both of them on meth. He got a promotion, I guess he was doing well at his job that he had for many years. I get a kick out of the posters that bet he is on more than pot. How do they know? I will wait to pass judgement until they disclose the tox results.

I don't think either one of them really look like meth users but who knows. Here in San Diego, it's EVERYWHERE and to me, I don't know, you just seem to know there's something wrong with them. Their skin looks ruddy, nails are dirty and they are twitchy. We call them tweekers here, I don't know if that's the case there. They look disheveled. Does this make sense? I've never done meth myself but I have worked with people that did. They would spend all day running around busy as bees but get nothing done. My one friend, she'd be painting her house one day and putting up a fence the next day and two months later, it's still no more done than the first day. :(

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

At the risk of repeating myself here, I think some have jumped to conclusions reguarding both of them on meth. He got a promotion, I guess he was doing well at his job that he had for many years. I get a kick out of the posters that bet he is on more than pot. How do they know? I will wait to pass judgement until they disclose the tox results.

While I can't find anything saying that LE or the ME has specifically said that it was meth in their systems, and true, its first mention on the boards here was speculation on the part of a poster, there has since been info released that lends credibility to that speculation. It is my understanding that the oldest son, Vance, reported that his mom and Mark's meth use had been escalating in the weeks before he moved out. He cited it as one of the reasons he left. Also, the father, Steve, allegedly at some point confronted Brenda telling her she better not be doing meth in front of the children.

I respect your not wanting to "pass judgement". But I believe the speculation of the posters at this point is justifiably based on that info.

Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong . . . it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[packerdog]

I don't think either one of them really look like meth users but who knows. Here in San Diego, it's EVERYWHERE and to me, I don't know, you just seem to know there's something wrong with them. Their skin looks ruddy, nails are dirty and they are twitchy. We call them tweekers here, I don't know if that's the case there. They look disheveled. Does this make sense? I've never done meth myself but I have worked with people that did. They would spend all day running around busy as bees but get nothing done. My one friend, she'd be painting her house one day and putting up a fence the next day and two months later, it's still no more done than the first day. :(

I really don't know anything about meth, only from what I read in the newspaper and hear on tv, but Mark seems to be able to hold down a job for many years and I don't think that would be possible if he was addicted to meth.

[Rle7]

At the risk of repeating myself here, I think some have jumped to conclusions reguarding both of them on meth. He got a promotion, I guess he was doing well at his job that he had for many years. I get a kick out of the posters that bet he is on more than pot. How do they know? I will wait to pass judgement until they disclose the tox results.
Vance Groene also said during the show he moved out of his mother's home because of growing tension, partly over drug use in the last year.

"I knew their use to be recreational," Vance Groene said. "It was pretty easy to tell when my mom was high and when she wasn't."

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/news01.txt

This is where I'm getting my assumption that Vance is referring to "their use" as methamphetamine use. In the same article, Steve Groene is more assertive stating that he was concerned of both Brenda and Marks' use of meth in front of the children. But you are right packerdog, these are only allegations up to this point, we should wait until the final toxicology report is in. I'm just speculating at the moment.

[lcookster]

Wow Jerseygirl! That bolded quote you put in about his mother being afraid of more 'retaliation' was big!! Very interesting and good catch! Leslie

[MistyGirl]

Thats why I have wondered when the photo of Mark was taken. I dont see a "meth addict" when I look at his photo.
Like I said he probably was not one, he very well could have used it recreationaly or something else recreationally. He does not nor does Brenda look like a meth addict..........I have a relative who is one and trust me you know one when you see on the physical effects are very noticable. It is possible the jsut used it occasionally with out becoming an addict.

[1986]

Here's what some might consider a dumb question...how does one "use" meth? Is it a pill, do you smoke it, or is it injected? Sorry to have to ask. I don't do drugs (well, let me change that to say that the hardest drug I've done was Dulcolax).

[Rle7]

Here's what some might consider a dumb question...how does one "use" meth? Is it a pill, do you smoke it, or is it injected? Sorry to have to ask. I don't do drugs (well, let me change that to say that the hardest drug I've done was Dulcolax).
All of the above. You can also snort it like cocaine. That snortable form is called "crank."

[MistyGirl]

Here's what some might consider a dumb question...how does one "use" meth? Is it a pill, do you smoke it, or is it injected? Sorry to have to ask. I don't do drugs (well, let me change that to say that the hardest drug I've done was Dulcolax).
Most common is too smoke it. Do not feel dumb for asking, I didn't know either until we found out a relative in our family became an addict.

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

Here's what some might consider a dumb question...how does one "use" meth? Is it a pill, do you smoke it, or is it injected? Sorry to have to ask. I don't do drugs (well, let me change that to say that the hardest drug I've done was Dulcolax).

I believe there are several ways to "do" it. The only one I've ever seen was a neighbor I had years ago . . . he smoked it out of broken light bulbs. (Real classy, huh?)

He's the only person I've ever known who did it, and I can say that it took quite some time for the physical signs to show up in him . . . I'd guess a year to two years (its been more than 10 years ago). He started out as a recreational user and escalated from there, proclaiming he "could handle it" all along the way.

I had lunch with his ex-wife a few months back and she said he was awaiting trial for dealing it.

[Et al]

I really don't know anything about meth, only from what I read in the newspaper and hear on tv, but Mark seems to be able to hold down a job for many years and I don't think that would be possible if he was addicted to meth.

Then you would be very surprised to discover that many addicts function quite normally. In fact one may even be your neighbor.

[Liz]

Found a little more info about the candlelight vigil, held last night for the children.

http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/krem2_052505_candlelight_vigil.2ac7201a0.html

[JerseyGirl]

Wow Jerseygirl! That bolded quote you put in about his mother being afraid of more 'retaliation' was big!! Very interesting and good catch! Leslie Thanks, leslie. :)

I'm not sure what to make of it yet, if anything. It could be that perhaps the area is known for drugs & crime, and she's afraid for herself. After all, she has no idea who killed her child or if it's someone that might want to come after her as well. But it jumped out at me, and I wanted to share it to see what all of you think.

[Et al]

Wasn't it Steve who said that the children "had nothing to do with this"
Now Mark's mom saying "I've kind of kept out of the limelight because I was afraid of more retaliation or something,"
There is a LOT more to this tragic story. Obviously somebody (Jesse/Vance?) majorly pissed off someone else (His drug dealer?).

[JerseyGirl]

Wasn't it Steve who said that the children "had nothing to do with this"
Now Mark's mom saying "I've kind of kept out of the limelight because I was afraid of more retaliation or something,"
There is a LOT more to this tragic story.
I've been thinking about your post since reading it about 20 minutes ago. Those two statements combined sure do seem like they could possibly indicate something.

[Liz]

Steve's actual quote included the word 'any'. He said the children "had nothing to do with any of this".

[Liz]

Also anyone who thinks they may have seen Shasta or Dylan Groene, is asked to snap a picture on their cell phone or camera and E-mail the picture to: (**********)KCGOVTIPS@HOTMAIL.COM


Hi Rle7!

Can you please say where you got that email address for the phototips? It looks like a very strange email address. So, I blanked out the questionable part and left only that which I have heard as the official email address for any and all tips and/or pix to be emailed to - kcgovtips@hotmail.com

Thanks in advance. :)

[royalpurple209]

Following are partial statement's made by Lee Wood "Mother" of victim "Mark McKenzie"

She states there was not a"barbecue"on sunday May 15th at the home of Brenda's, if that is a true fact then who were this people that LE have contacted and why were these people there on this day in question?, investigators have stated they contacted everyone that attended barbecue on Sunday May 15th but accrding to Ms, Wood's there was no barbecue.


"They have all this stuff about him being on drugs. He may have smoked some pot but I've never known him to be on hard drugs of any kind," she said. "He'd just go to work, come home. Brenda and the kids were his family."

Wood disputed a police report that there was a barbecue at the home May 15.

"That's one thing these guys need to understand. There was no barbecue Sunday," she said. "Mark went to Coeur d'Alene and got hamburgers and French fries and brought them back for the kids and him and Brenda.

"There's a lot of stuff that's come up that's not right, but that's to be expected. I've had a hard time adjusting to that also. The truth will come out."

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt

[Rle7]

Hi Rle7!

Can you please say where you got that email address for the phototips? It looks like a very strange email address. So, I blanked out the questionable part and left only that which I have heard as the official email address for any and all tips and/or pix to be emailed to - kcgovtips@hotmail.com

Thanks in advance. :)
Sure, Liz. I got that on MSNBC's website:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7970047

I hope that was the right e-mail address. Otherwise, it was a misprint on MSNBC's website and I apologize for posting the wrong info.

[SauerKraut]

Then you would be very surprised to discover that many addicts function quite normally. In fact one may even be your neighbor.
So funny you say that, the neighbors behind me are the "known neighborhood dealers" and I always try to look the other way if I see them. They are scrungy and act all nervous and jittery and we have called the police several times for their "customers" that come block our driveway. The police have told me they are "small time" and they have bigger fish to fry. Nice. I think I may just let them park there from now on.

[SauerKraut]

Steve's actual quote included the word 'any'. He said the children "had nothing to do with any of this".

I thought the same thing when the father gave that interview. It was very telling, his choice of words. And I did notice Mark's mother's words today too, also the same thing.

Could it be possible that: The family were dealing on a small level, like maybe to friends, just casually. They owed some bigger dealers money for these drugs they were dealing to friends. In the meantime, Lutner isn't paying them back, money that very well was meant for the big dealers. Lutner doesn't pay, they can't pay. Big dealers now want their money. Makes sense if they had been pestering Lutner to pay back that money. If this had been dragging on for a long time, I could see some dealers taking revenge. Who knows how much they owed them total.

[Liz]

Sure, Liz. I got that on MSNBC's website:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7970047

I hope that was the right e-mail address. Otherwise, it was a misprint on MSNBC's website and I apologize for posting the wrong info.


Thank you for replying, Rle7! :)

That is definitely an invalid email address that is being provided by KHQ / MSNBC! Email addresses don't have more than one "@" in them. Try sending an email to that addy and see what happens.

And hey, you don't need to apologize! You have nothing to apologize for! In fact, IF you hadn't posted that info, who knows how long they might be providing an invalid email address for tips to be sent to?

I sent an email to the correct tips email addy and hope they are able get that rectified soon. Not only did I want to make KC investigators aware, but hought the tv station would respond quicker to their request, than they would mine.

I have a feeling that they meant to say to send your "phototips to kcgovtips@hotmail.com" and then everything would have been accurate. Just a matter of substituting a "@" for a "to". :)

I'm glad you're posting, Rle7!

[harleysnana]

At the risk of repeating myself here, I think some have jumped to conclusions reguarding both of them on meth. He got a promotion, I guess he was doing well at his job that he had for many years. I get a kick out of the posters that bet he is on more than pot. How do they know? I will wait to pass judgement until they disclose the tox results.

I agree!
I also don't think they look like meth users....
When someone uses meth they become extremely skinny,
they tend to let their appearance go, their hair gets greasy, and their skin breaks out!
Just because they have had brushes with the law and might have
done "recreational" drugs…. does not mean it has to be meth.
Meth is not a recreational drug. It's an addicts drug.
My daughter is a recovering meth addict.... and everyone of her meth
"friends" became addicts!
This family does not look like meth addicts to me.
They look like a very nice family. And it upsets me that others
are ready to point and say that their life style led to this.
The killings were horrendous… I don’t think in Idaho, a drug deal gone bad would
have been that brutal.
And I don't think that they would be spending their money
on BBQ's and gardening, if they were meth users.

[mysteriew]

Ok, trying to sort out the puzzle and who's who. This is what I have come up with so far. Please add to the facts as we know them to be through news articles and LE statements.

POI Lutner- Initially missing right after murders
States that there was a BBQ at the house on Sunday
Passes lie detector

Ex-Husband Steve G. States he is a suspect
States he has no alibi for Sun.
Admits to argument with the kids mom on Fri.
Lives with Ex-MIL
Admits some drug use
States he failed lie detector test-the question about knowing where the kids are
Makes statement that the kids had nothing to do with any of this

Brenda's mother Saying nothing

Jesse G. son/bro of vics. Incarcerated at the time of the murder-burglary
History of drug use

Vance G. son/bro of vics. Says Mom and Mark doing drugs
Recently moved out of his mother's home
Says a lot of tension in the household
Says Lutner owed money to Mom
Says he failed lie detector test-the question about knowing where the kids are
History of drug use?

Wood, Mother of Mark- Denys vics used any drugs other than pot
Denys BBQ on Sun.
States she fears retaliation

LE- Denys Lutner is suspect
Denys Dad is suspect
States that the kids were presumed alive when they left the house
States that they do not believe there is a sexual component
States that kids were very self-reliant, and knew the area very well
States undisclosed drug found in drug tox. of Brenda and Mark
States that vics were bound, but leaves open the possibility that they may have been bound after the trauma
States all three vics died of injuries to head and no weapon found

Victims:

Brenda Mother of 5. Slade and the two missing children were living with her.
Brenda and Mark were cousins
Brenda and Mark knew each other and were friends during Brenda's marriage.
Undisclosed drugs in system at time of death
Died of blunt force trauma
Found bound, but may have occured after the trauma

Mark Main wage earner for the household
Was friendly with Steve, prior to divorce
Undisclosed drug found in the system
Blunt force trauma caused death
Was found bound, but may have been bound after trauma occurred
Described as a long time family friend

Slade Age 13
No drugs in tox tests
Blunt force trauma
Was found bound, but may have been bound after the trauma occured

Neighbor Found crime scene
Went to house to pay Slade for work
May have found vehicle door open?
May have found blood on the house door
Contacted LE

[mysteriew]

Help me out here.

Has LE actually denied that Vance is a suspect?

Was there a friendship between Steve and Lutner or between Vance and Lutner? It is a small town, and it is likely that they all ran in the same group.

How long was Lutner out of town and where did he reportedly go?

Did Lutner actually owe Mom the money?

[sharon25]

Ok, trying to sort out the puzzle and who's who. This is what I have come up with so far. Please add to the facts as we know them to be through news articles and LE statements.

Vance G. son/bro of vics. Says Mom and Mark doing drugs
Recently moved out of his mother's home
Says a lot of tension in the household
Says Lutner owed money to Mom
Says he failed lie detector test-the question about knowing where the kids are
History of drug use?

Did Vance say that he also thought he failed that part
of the Lie detector???

Also- I can't find a link, but I saw it on the news ticker that they are going to search a landfill by the home tomorrow. (later on today)

[dannyodie]

just rambling on here, but I wonder if the le people checked into the neighbor a bit more, or someone related to him? when did the 13yr old mom the neighbors lawn?, seems like to me that he waited awhile before going up there to pay the 10 bucks to the kid. can the neighbor see the house from his house?

mysteriew has some well adjusted facts with his post, there could be something there that just needs to be sorted through. I wonder if the murder weapon was discared not far from the scene, seems to me it would be very messy, why carry something all the way back to where they were going to with a bloody item,ball bat or something. seems like a two by four would leave wide area of damage as opposed to damage caused by a ball bat. I said it once before they need to look into a real reliable physic now, instead of waiting 6 months to deside to bring one in. the time the kids have been gone is starting to become very disturbing and ls looking grime.

[JerseyGirl]

And it upsets me that others
are ready to point and say that their life style led to this.
The killings were horrendous… I don’t think in Idaho, a drug deal gone bad would
have been that brutal.
And I don't think that they would be spending their money
on BBQ's and gardening, if they were meth users.The family also doesn't seem like meth users to me but it does seem like we've heard the word fairly often from people involved in the case ... Steve, Vance, & Jesse at least. Vance & Steve both mentioned that Brenda and Mark had used. Jesse mentioned that he & Vance had used. Is this something untrue that perhaps was concocted after the deaths for some reason? Perhaps. But at the same time, if the family members themselves are admitting that there was meth use, then I think that it's okay to use that in speculation. It would be different if this was speculation pulled out of thin air but it seems like there is enough mention of meth use within the family, (and in the area), to question the role that this drug may have played.

The killings were horrendous but I don't know that I agree with the statement "I don’t think in Idaho, a drug deal gone bad would have been that brutal." I'm sure that different areas of Idaho have different situations. From what we know of the area in which they lived, the crime rate is higher than both the regional average and the national average. At first glance, that doesn't seem so strange. But remember that their area has been referred to as "very rural". For an area that rural to come in above the national crime average, something's not quite right. It has been mentioned by more than one commentator that the area in which they live is known to be a big meth area. (They say that with all of that open land, there are plenty of places out there to "cook it" without getting caught.) And unfortunately, where there's meth there's crime, and where there's meth, it sounds like there's often senseless, brutal crime. I think that drugs can and do spur this kind of brutality whether it's in New York or California or Idaho. We just don't necessarily hear about it because it's doesn't usually include a case of missing children.

I still don't have a theory on this that makes sense. It could be custody related, it could be drug related, it could be money related ... I just don't know. But I do find the theories being discussed here to be mostly interesting and valid based on the facts known & the statements made by some of the players.

[Beyond Belief]

Hi, just getting on board on this site. The comments and facts are really interesting on this site. This case just makes you wonder whats going on out there in the world.
Seems like someone was confronted in the front yard and then moved into the house. Weapon must be a crow bar or baseball bat by the sounds of the injuries.
I am wondering the why? on the landfill? Was the trash collected on Monday? Do they think they will find the children, god forbid, among the refuse? Were the injuries inflicted while the victims were in "the found" position or were they injured then bound?
Was this family in bed for the evening? That would be obvious by the clothing they were wearing. Someone said the man had gone to a fast food place for dinner, had the food been eaten or was he attacked as he got out of the car. Maybe the bad guys were in the house when he returned, thus over powered the woman and boy, beforehand.
There's lots of questions. Maybe this bad guy got more of a fight than he bargained for leading to the violent deaths. No drugs found in the home is quite clear that though in the adults system was removed by someone for some reason. Most dogs will get into the fight if someone attacks their master, very strange events.

[Liz]

Welcome aboard, Beyond Belief! :) Good questions and nice first post! Fireplace poker or crowbar - that's what I was guessing, too!

I'm signing off to catch some Zzzzzz's. I'll check out your post later. ;)

[JerseyGirl]

Did Vance say that he also thought he failed that part
of the Lie detector???I've heard this too. But it also sounded like not only were they accused by the polygrapher of failing the exact same part, but also that the statements and gestures made by the examiner were the same in both cases during the accusations, (almost as if to imply that it was a tactic).

[JerseyGirl]

Welcome to WS, Beyond Belief! :) :) :)

[Beyond Belief]

Thanks JerseyGirl,
I was a Jersey girl once upon a time!

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks JerseyGirl,
I was a Jersey girl once upon a time!Really? Closer to Philly or closer to New York? I'm originally from Philly, been here for a while, but might soon become a former JerseyGirl myself. :(

[Rle7]

Help me out here.

Has LE actually denied that Vance is a suspect?

Was there a friendship between Steve and Lutner or between Vance and Lutner? It is a small town, and it is likely that they all ran in the same group.

How long was Lutner out of town and where did he reportedly go?

Did Lutner actually owe Mom the money?
1. I have never heard LE state that Vance was ever a suspect. Vance stated in an article last week that he had taken a polygraph test and was scheduled to take another poly.

2. Lutner was a former neighbor of Brenda and Marks'. Vance had described Lutner as a family friend. I've never heard Steve talk about Lutner as a friend.

3. Earlier Wednesday, authorities said Lutner, who has been on probation for unemployment insurance fraud since December 2003, told his supervising officer in Coeur d'Alene he was "too distraught" to talk with authorities. He planned to drive to Emmett, near Boise, to visit his father, who had suffered a stroke recently. http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/19/news/news01.txt (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/19/news/news01.txt)


Lutner contacted authorities after learning he was being sought and voluntarily agreed to take a lie detector test, Wolfinger said, adding that Lutner was on probation for an unemployment fraud conviction and delayed turning himself in because he was worried about violating the terms of his probation. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157014,00.html)


Robert Lutner's girlfriend, who asked to remain anonymous, said she had spoken with her boyfriend on Tuesday and that Lutner had said the murders were "executions" and were "gang-related"; investigators have never said anything about the nature of the murders other than all three victims had been bound. http://www.krem.com/news/local/stories/NW_051805IDBamberalertLJ.2876e9709.html (http://www.krem.com/news/local/stories/NW_051805IDBamberalertLJ.2876e9709.html)


4. On a KREM-TV interview on 5/19, Jesse Groene stated that his parents (Brenda and Mark) had lent Lutner the money so Lutner would not lose his house.

[JerseyGirl]

On a KREM-TV interview on 5/19, Jesse Groene stated that his parents (Brenda and Mark) had lent Lutner the money so Lutner would not lose his house.
That gesture is in line with what Jesse has said about the type of person his mother was.

[Rle7]

just rambling on here, but I wonder if the le people checked into the neighbor a bit more, or someone related to him? when did the 13yr old mom the neighbors lawn?, seems like to me that he waited awhile before going up there to pay the 10 bucks to the kid. can the neighbor see the house from his house?
ROB HOLLINGSWORTH, NEIGHBOR WHO CALLED POLICE: I had had Slade do some work for me the day before (Sunday). He mowed the grass along my fence. And I owed him $10. And I didn`t have the change.

So I got the change and came back the next day to pay him. And of course, when I knocked on the door, and no one came to the door -- it was pitch black in there, and the dogs were barking -- but both vehicles were there. And so that`s when I got suspicious. And one door of the car was open, and it just looked suspicious. So I called the sheriff`s department at that point. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html)

[Beyond Belief]

Closer to Philly

About 20 minutes from Philly down the Black Horse Pike.

[Beyond Belief]

I hadn't caught that comment "pitch black in there" by the neighbor before. That tells me the incident happened before it got dark on Sunday night. Most people leave somekind of light on for little kids during the night, unless the family had a habit of turning all the lights off after they went to bed.

[Sheromom]

I still don't have a theory on this that makes sense. It could be custody related, it could be drug related, it could be money related ... I just don't know. But I do find the theories being discussed here to be mostly interesting and valid based on the facts known & the statements made by some of the players.
Something I don't think any of us have seriously considered, but is possible, is that a complete stranger COULD have done this as well. Jersey Girl, where are you moving to? Closer to me, I hope?! Just sorry you don't sound like you're looking forward to it.:blowkiss:

[JerseyGirl]

Something I don't think any of us have seriously considered, but is possible, is that a complete stranger COULD have done this as well. Jersey Girl, where are you moving to? Closer to me, I hope?! Just sorry you don't sound like you're looking forward to it.:blowkiss:
That's so sweet! I wish! But a bit further south - Delaware. And no, I'm not looking forward to it. I love my home, I love my town, I love (most of) my past - and it's all HERE, not there!!! But it's not definite. It's a job-related possibility but not even a probability at this point.

Beyond Belief, if you are a recent move-away from NJ, there are a couple if interesting PA stories here on WS. One is the missing DA, Ray Gricar. And another is out of Philadelphia - missing couple Danielle Imbo & Richard Petrone - disappeared without a trace over 3 months ago. Both had children that friends say they would never leave.

I guess that this COULD have been a random crime but it doesn't seem likely, and the police have said as much, haven't they? (I could be confusing my murders. :( Very sad commentary. :( ) I also hadn't heard about it being pitch black. Good observations, Beyond Belief. So that probably means that it either happened before dark, it happened after they had gone to bed for the night, or the perps shut off lights and/or televisions on their way out.

[JerseyGirl]

Just on FOX News, blood evidence analysis is complete ... no blood from kids at the scene of the crime. Banner said "High Hopes Kids Are Still Alive".

[Beyond Belief]

Foxnews
Crime scene blood investigation complete: no evidence of blood from children.

The whole country needs to be on the lookout during this holiday weekend, surely someone will see them somewhere.

[Beyond Belief]

JerseyGirl,
I have been gone from Jersey for 35 yrs. Still dragging around the accent tho. I follow Greta on fox and whatever she covers, I follow.

I wish those kids would turn up.

Off to work, everyone have a great day!

[Tom'sGirl]

There are several listings for Groene in Idaho. I wonder if this family has lived in the area for a while. How old is Vance? There's a Troy Groene, born in 1975, listed at 3 different addresses. I wonder if they're family, and if the family in the region is close.
Did you notice that Brenda is listed with two different birthdates?

[JerseyGirl]

Did you notice that Brenda is listed with two different birthdates? I don't recall now. :waitasec:

[mysteriew]

Theory: Ok, how about this? Vance either goes to the BBQ or drops by Mom's after the BBQ. Vance is edgy and looking for drugs/money. Vance and Mom start arguing (possibly over Vance's increasing drug use, and failure to live up to his responsiblity as a father) Vance strikes out at Mom, Mark comes to her defense and Vance turns the weapon on him. Slade jumps in and get the weapon used on him. All three are still breathing or Vance is not sure if they are still alive, so he binds them. The little kids are crying and scared, and now that the heat is over he cannot bring himself to hurt them. Lutner drops by and Vance convinces him to take the kids out of state to a relative. Lutner drops Vance off somewhere, or Vance leaves on his own. Dad strongly suspects Vance, or Vance has told him what happened.

Motivations: Need for a fix
Drug use is skewing thinking
Resentment toward Mom for yelling at him, when she is starting to act the same way
Resentment toward Mom and Mark for the problems which led to him moving out
Lingering resentment toward Mark re: affair Brenda and Mark had during the marriage, breaking up the marriage
His loyalties have shifted to Dad

[mysteriew]

Preliminary DNA tests showed no traces of the blood of two missing children in the home where three other people were slain, raising hopes that Dylan and Shasta Groene are still alive, officials said Thursday

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=794196

[JerseyGirl]

Lutner drops by and Vance convinces him to take the kids out of state to a relative. Lutner drops Vance off somewhere, or Vance leaves on his own.That's a really interesting theory. It would certainly explain some of the lie detector results. However, Lutner passed his. And didn't they say that Lutner's car was one of those at the scene? Do you think that they would have checked Lutner out after the LD? Like ask to search his home, his closet, his car? How about Vance's stuff? I can't imagine them getting out of there without evidence all over them as well as any car they might have left in.

[Shadow205]

Jersey, I think that is what they are looking for in the landfill.

[dannyodie]

mysteriew: I know that lutner past his lie detector test. I find it strange that lunter didn't come forwared the very minute that he heard of this tragedy happening and after knowing le was wanting to talk to him, it is strange I think that he didn't come in sooner than he did. if you don't have anything to hide why take so long coming forwared? It is possible to pass a lie detector test. and I hope they talk to him again and give it again, I wonder if they did a voice stress test as well. those test would be a bit more difficult to get around. you have some really good theories going there. seems that these kids might be somewhere like an amnesty house where they are being held and looked after. I couldn't imagine the fear those two beautiful children are in right now. when they talk about the car door being open, that is a weird twist, unless the boyfriend came back from somewhere and saw that someone was there, I can't understand blood being on the car door, unless someone was trying to flee the scene? or it was gone thru after the fact to retrieve whatever item? I sure hope that these children are indeed safe, and the one that murdered these three people is captured.

[SauerKraut]

[b]mysteriew: I know that lutner past his lie detector test. I find it strange that lunter didn't come forwared the very minute that he heard of this tragedy happening and after knowing le was wanting to talk to him, it is strange I think that he didn't come in sooner than he did.

I thought Lutner came in relatively quickly, no? Wasn't he out of town somewhat and had to come back?

I watched Vance's interview, I would be SHOCKED if he was involved in the actual crime. He may know more, but I don't think he did this, AT ALL. He seemed typical of a young guy in front of a camera that just lost a big chunk of his family.

Are they able, allowed, to bring in the father, Vance, Lutner, Aunt, etc. in again for another lie detector test that would indicate whether they know who could have done it?

Not finding the kids blood is no big surprise. They probably would have found the bodies if they had found any blood. It's unlikely they would have injured the kids and then take them away.

I have a bad feeling they are going to find something in that landfill. If the kids were dumped in the landfill, the purps could be thinking enough time had passed for everyone to focus on them being missing and continue to believe we need to look for missing kids. Sorry to be negative. I hope they find them. It's just a lot of time has gone by.

[chicoliving]

Reading thru the posts I have a question.....the 911 call that the neighbor made asking the dispatch to send or call the deputy because "that truck is still there" wasn't making sense to me and in an above post I read that Lutner's truck was still at the home. Why was his truck at the scene of the murders and is this the vehicle with the door open thats been reported? Is this how LE knew to look for Lutner to begin with? Cause his truck plates were ran thru dmv when the neighbor reported it?

I saw a clip that showed not a pickup but more like a bronco with the door damaged and ajar but don't know how that vehicle is related...maybe just there on the property or something.

[SauerKraut]

Reading thru the posts I have a question.....the 911 call that the neighbor made asking the dispatch to send or call the deputy because "that truck is still there" wasn't making sense to me and in an above post I read that Lutner's truck was still at the home. Why was his truck at the scene of the murders and is this the vehicle with the door open thats been reported? Is this how LE knew to look for Lutner to begin with? Cause his truck plates were ran thru dmv when the neighbor reported it?

I saw a clip that showed not a pickup but more like a bronco with the door damaged and ajar but don't know how that vehicle is related...maybe just there on the property or something.

I'm confused, maybe I need to read about this truck. Where was the link for the pic?

That would be weird if it was Lutner's truck!!! I thought I heard it was Mark's truck. Was there blood on the truck door? What about blood from the house TO the truck or vice versa? There is too much they are not telling us!!!!! They know the purps, just can't find them.

[chicoliving]

No link for the clip cause I saw it on tv....it was fairly recent on Fox News during one of the profiles of the case. The truck didn't look bloody or anything....just maybe damage to the passenger door or it was ajar and there was a shadow or something.

[Rle7]

I watched Vance's interview, I would be SHOCKED if he was involved in the actual crime. He may know more, but I don't think he did this, AT ALL. He seemed typical of a young guy in front of a camera that just lost a big chunk of his family.
I agree here. I saw Vance's first TV interview the day after the murders were discovered. Vance was visually upset, looked the interviewer right in the eye, and clearly didn't know what had happened in the house. He thought someone shot them. I know some people are good at acting, but Vance looked extremely upset and confused.

[Beyond Belief]

Has anyone looked at the other different types of crimes that had been happening in the area or within several hundred miles? Or someone from the past known to a member of the family who may have been released from jail in the past few months?
I read somewhere that the Mom and boyfriend has known each other for years in some other town. Maybe this is an enemy from their past that found out where they were.
I just don't think its the family members. The crime is way to violent. Anyone with this violent nature has done this type of thing before. You don't just wake up one morning and begin slaughtering people.

[Rle7]

Here is a link to the first Vance Groene interview I saw the day after the murders were discovered:

http://www.krem.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/052005_vance-groene.wmv

[SauerKraut]

Has anyone looked at the other different types of crimes that had been happening in the area or within several hundred miles? Or someone from the past known to a member of the family who may have been released from jail in the past few months?
I read somewhere that the Mom and boyfriend has known each other for years in some other town. Maybe this is an enemy from their past that found out where they were.
I just don't think its the family members. The crime is way to violent. Anyone with this violent nature has done this type of thing before. You don't just wake up one morning and begin slaughtering people.

That's a good point. They should look at anyone known to have drug history too that these people knew.

Have they determined yet if there was or was not a BBQ that night? Wouldn't it make sense to have the BBQ on Saturday?

Are they looking for a murder weapon in the landfill? If not, what exactly ARE they looking for?

[Yeah,me]

Here is a link to the first Vance Groene interview I saw the day after the murders were discovered:

http://www.krem.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/052005_vance-groene.wmv
You wanna hear something odd? A few days ago, there was also a video of the Jesse video, but now it's gone. I emailed krem and never received a response. LE was also concerned for Jesse's safey at the funeral yesterday.

[Rle7]

You wanna hear something odd? A few days ago, there was also a video of the Jesse video, but now it's gone. I emailed krem and never received a response. LE was also concerned for Jesse's safey at the funeral yesterday.
That is odd, that KREM would still have Vance's video from Tuesday of last week but not Jesse's? I wonder why that is?

[Beyond Belief]

I haven't heard any more about the barbeque. I think they said the man went into town to pick up fast food for them on Sunday. This could have been provoked by something as ridiculous as him making another driver angry. They could have followed him home and here is the result. The whole thing is mind boggling.
You can bet if there was a female with the bad guys, she would have protected those little kids. There might not have been to much she could have done about a "fight" which would have taken place between the older child, and adults with the bad guys, but a "she" would have drawn the line when it came to little kids. Maybe we have a female that was present during this slaughter and she has the kids with her, hiding someplace, probably a cabin in the mountains some where.

[Beyond Belief]

Greta just said there's a new clue in the case. I wonder if she's talking about the no trace of their blood at the scene?

[Tom'sGirl]

That's a good point. They should look at anyone known to have drug history too that these people knew.

Have they determined yet if there was or was not a BBQ that night? Wouldn't it make sense to have the BBQ on Saturday?

Are they looking for a murder weapon in the landfill? If not, what exactly ARE they looking for?
Wasn't it Brenda's mother who said it was no barbeque, rather burgers & fries brought home from town?

[chicoliving]

Wasn't it Brenda's mother who said it was no barbeque, rather burgers & fries brought home from town?
I was under the impression that came from Mark's mom, I think a Mrs. Woods.

[Tom'sGirl]

I don't recall now. :waitasec:
Two listings for the same address, but 22 years age difference......hmmmmmm
BRENDA GROENE (http://www.zabasearch.com/search_engines.php?name_searched=BRENDA++GROENE) 1943
12725 FRONTAGE RD COEUR D ALENE ID (http://www.zabasearch.com/search_maps.php?street=12725+FRONTAGE+RD&city=+COEUR+D+ALENE&state=ID) (http://www.zabasearch.com/query1_zaba.php?sname=BRENDA++GROENE&state=all&ref=zaba&se=O&name_style=1)

BRENDA K GROENE (http://www.zabasearch.com/search_engines.php?name_searched=BRENDA+K+GROENE) Mar 1965
12725 FRONTAGE RD COEUR D ALENE ID (http://www.zabasearch.com/search_maps.php?street=12725+FRONTAGE+RD&city=+COEUR+D+ALENE&state=ID)

as per ZabaSearch (http://www.zabasearch.com/query1_zaba.php?sname=BRENDA++GROENE&state=all&ref=zaba&se=O&name_style=1)

[Tom'sGirl]

I was under the impression that came from Mark's mom, I think a Mrs. Woods.
You're right........my bad!

[Beyond Belief]

If her mother said that, then she was in contact with them on Sunday evening. I wonder what time she talked to them. Those lights being off makes me wonder when exactly this happened.
It seems like the car door being open, Mark was attacked as he got out of the car. But the food would have been still in the car. I sort of think thats how this happened. They were either in the house with the family while he was gone and then he walked right into it when he got back. If the home was entered while he was away, its possible someone was waiting for him to leave and took advantage of the situation. If the mother knew he was leaving for the store, then whoever was in her home knew it too. I wonder how long it takes to get from the mother place to the victims house?

[Tom'sGirl]

If her mother said that, then she was in contact with them on Sunday evening. I wonder what time she talked to them. Those lights being off makes me wonder when exactly this happened.
It seems like the car door being open, Mark was attacked as he got out of the car. But the food would have been still in the car. I sort of think thats how this happened. They were either in the house with the family while he was gone and then he walked right into it when he got back. If the home was entered while he was away, its possible someone was waiting for him to leave and took advantage of the situation. If the mother knew he was leaving for the store, then whoever was in her home knew it too. I wonder how long it takes to get from the mother place to the victims house?
I was wrong, it was Mark's mom

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

. . . mother who said it was no barbeque, rather burgers & fries brought home from town?

Since the report of there being no BBQ came from Mark's mom, I'm wondering if maybe they lied to her to keep her from wanting to come over. So much has come out about the BBQ from LE that I tend to believe it actually happened.

Just a thought.

[SauerKraut]

This could have been provoked by something as ridiculous as him making another driver angry. They could have followed him home and here is the result. The whole thing is mind boggling.
You can bet if there was a female with the bad guys, she would have protected those little kids. There might not have been to much she could have done about a "fight" which would have taken place between the older child, and adults with the bad guys, but a "she" would have drawn the line when it came to little kids. Maybe we have a female that was present during this slaughter and she has the kids with her, hiding someplace, probably a cabin in the mountains some where.

It's certainly possible that there was a female with the killers but I find it unlikely that this was a road rage turned deadly. This was thought out: They were attacked on a Sunday night, before the start of a new work week, they knew everyone would be home and they knew it's kind of a quiet time, kids ready for school the next day and the adults, work.

Does anyone have info on Slade, did he look older for his age maybe? He just does not fit as being targeted unless they mistook him for an adult or he put up a hell of a fight. I think he was just caught in a bad position, I really doubt he was who they were after.

Did they ever say (probably not) if there were certain clothes or items missing from the little kids? Stuffed animals, jackets, pajamas, etc. that could indicated if they were taken with an intent to keep them for a while? Could this be some things they are looking for in the landfill? I keep thinking of Jessica Lunsford's dolphin.

What kind of 'evidence' did they find in every room? What is the layout, size of the house?

I have an image in my head that they were tied up in one room, like a living room and killed there? Obviously I'm not a psychic or anything but I'm wondering what kind of evidence they mean in the other rooms? Fingerprints? Are they waiting for some match? Someone enlighten me?

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

Alternatively, since the report of the BBQ originally came from Lutner, its possible that there was no BBQ, and LE are making statements that there was in order to make Lutner more comfortable.

[Tom'sGirl]

"Since the report of there being no BBQ came from Mark's mom, I'm wondering if maybe they lied to her to keep her from wanting to come over."
Just a thought.
Very well could be LG!

Actually IF they had indeed had a barbeque there was no evidence of any BBQ grill being outdoors in any of the photos of the property that I saw

[Beyond Belief]

I follow your image, but i keep seeing it as a fight between the boy and mother with the assailants and then Mark comes into the picture. I really think they came in armed with bats or boards or whatever and started swinging. I don't think they could have gotten them tied up without a fight.

I haven't heard anything about what type of clothing anyone was wearing so the time of day is being kept quiet. I mean if they had pj's on of course its night. The lights being turned off is strange. Was the house locked up? Were the assailants there looking for something? Did they keep money in the house? As time moves on people in the area will forget something they might have seen. If the time of day or night is known it should be shared with the public. Someone could have seen these horrible people stop for gas, for food or in a bar after this happen. Evening passing a car on a road might have been noticed, you know darn well whoever this was went speeding away. I would think even maybe an officer would have seen something. The assailants had to really had their adrenlin flowing after that.

I'd like to know more about that campground the kids spent time at. What type of people did they make friends with over there. I also read something about mining tours in that area. Those kids could be anywhere.

[Tom'sGirl]

I follow your image, but i keep seeing it as a fight between the boy and mother with the assailants and then Mark comes into the picture. I really think they came in armed with bats or boards or whatever and started swinging. I don't think they could have gotten them tied up without a fight.

I haven't heard anything about what type of clothing anyone was wearing so the time of day is being kept quiet. I mean if they had pj's on of course its night. The lights being turned off is strange. Was the house locked up? Were the assailants there looking for something? Did they keep money in the house? As time moves on people in the area will forget something they might have seen. If the time of day or night is known it should be shared with the public. Someone could have seen these horrible people stop for gas, for food or in a bar after this happen. Evening passing a car on a road might have been noticed, you know darn well whoever this was went speeding away. I would think even maybe an officer would have seen something. The assailants had to really had their adrenlin flowing after that.

I'd like to know more about that campground the kids spent time at. What type of people did they make friends with over there. I also read something about mining tours in that area. Those kids could be anywhere.Apparently the campground is close as the kids hung-out there frequently, so maybe whoever came into the house and did this could have been parked there and walked over to the house.

Also, the kids could have been at the campground during the attack and not in the house. Just guessing here:confused:

[Beyond Belief]

Now with the news that they were not injured at the sc