What personality factors might have contributed to this senseless crime?

[JerseyGirl]

Janet Abaroa's life was tragically ended by a murderer. This thread will discuss some of the personality disorders often associated with murderers, and the role that those disorders may or may not have played in this case.

[JerseyGirl]

The following quotes can all be found here -- THE PSYCHOPATH - The Mask of Sanity -- Special Research Project of the Quantum Future Group: (http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm)SECONDARY PSYCHOPATHS are risk-takers, but are also more likely to be stress-reactive, worriers, and guilt-prone. They expose themselves to more stress than the average person, but they are as vulnerable to stress as the average person. They are daring, adventurous, unconventional people who began playing by their own rules early in life. They are strongly driven by a desire to escape or avoid pain, but are unable to resist temptation. As their anxiety increases toward some forbidden object, so does their attraction to it. They live their lives by the lure of temptation.

(more...)

CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS are charming, attractive liars. They are usually gifted at some talent or another, and they use it to their advantage in manipulating others. They are usually fast-talkers, and possess an almost demonic ability to persuade others out of everything they own, even their lives.

(still more...)

How Psychopaths View The World

Not only do they covet possessions and power, but they gain special pleasure in usurping and taking from others (a symbolic sibling, for example); what they can plagiarize, swindle, and extort are fruits far sweeter than those they can earn through honest labor. And once having drained what they can from one source, they turn to another to exploit, bleed, and then cast aside; their pleasure in the misfortune of others is unquenchable.

People are used as a means to an end; they are to be subordinated and demeaned so that the antisocial can vindicate themselves...

*****

[Kaly]

This is an excellent site someone gave me on this board describing all kinds of killers. http://www.faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect10.htm

[JerseyGirl]

More from The Mask of Sanity... (http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm)



The psychopath is filled with greed inside, relating to the world through power, even though, as I said, on the outside he can claim to be on the side of the disenfranchised or the downtrodden. I knew one who liked to repeat phrases such as "they have to stop keeping my brothers down" but he didn't mean a word of it. He was actually a racist. The psychopath can also often identify himself as a revolutionary.*****

[JerseyGirl]

The following can all be read in full context at this site; THE PSYCHOPATH - The Mask of Sanity Special Research Project of the Quantum Future Group: (http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm)(W)hen needing to manipulate a female, the psychopath often targets women who are what is often called the "dumb blonde" type, the kind of woman who exudes naivete, often unconscious of her own sexuality, vapid innocence(...)their personalities usually border on the Pollyanish, and they always see a silver lining in every cloud. Not that there is anything essentially wrong with innocence or optimism, but when dealing with a psychopath, that can prove a bad combination. Psychopaths seem to be attracted to this type of woman in particular. She is nurturing and all-giving, while he is closed-off and retentive.(after reading the following, it might be instructive to review the longer Abaroa Xmas 2003 video (http://www.zippyvideos.com/197162006300845.html))

Psychopaths have a grandiose self-structure which demands "a scornful and detached devaluation of others" [Gacon et al 1992], in order to ward off envy toward the good perceived in people. They react towards perceived or existing attachment capacities with ambivelence and often aggression. According to Meloy, most of them transfer the attachment to "hard objects" such as weapons, knives, [magical practices] etc. The grandiose self is represented onto the weapon or object and is a projection of themselves. This of course is more in depth study of the psychopath. Not all psychopaths have a gun collection or a favourite knife or sword, but a great deal of them do tend to be fond of weapons and such symbols of aggression and dominance. I'm not sure if this is true in all cases, but one psychopath I knew loved swords. He was obsessed with them and loved weapons of all kinds.

*****

[JerseyGirl]

MURDER IN THE UK - CRIME & PERSONALITY (http://www.murderuk.com/psychology/ptoject.htm)

Interesting writing & tables. I will later try to research some of the studies mentioned in his dissertation.

[mysteriew]

This is an excellent site someone gave me on this board describing all kinds of killers. http://www.faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect10.htm

Wow! Very interesting reading! Many of these I had never heard of!

[JerseyGirl]

The Narcissistic N Type (http://narcissism.homestead.com/ntype.html)

Also known as: Narcissist. Sanguine personality. Charismatic personality, demagogue. The non-aggressive non-perfectionist. The self-anointed glory seeker...

Smile: Instinctual. Often radiant "gingival" smile, broadly exposing gums and teeth.

Photograph: Looks at camera. Broad charismatic gingival smile. Starry-eyed smile...

Sexuality: Tendency to promiscuity: high. Tendency to ambivalence in sexual orientation: high.

Susceptibilities: Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), megalomania, messianism. Unfocused, undisciplined, disorganized personality. Pathological liar. Confidence man/woman. Vagabond criminal. Uncontrollable florid rages...

He would convey the impression that "I will be the greatest, the most glorious and the most beautiful, and in fact I think that I already am!" He is self-admiring. He has great ambitions with regard to future accomplishments, but does not recognize his limitations. His eyes are set more toward himself and toward the limelight of recognition to be attained in the future than toward the actual tasks with which he must deal. His voice is soothing and clear, and may be directed toward the horizon where all can hear it. His pride is also invested in the beauty of his physical body when in the presence of others. With his not so subtle body postures, mannerisms, and self-congratulatory laughter, he flaunts himself.

(If he is) lacking perfectionist qualities, he may have difficulties in organizing himself. He lacks persistence or staying power. Perfectionism by careful repetitive action is alien to him. He has no aggressive-vindictive qualities, does not "play the game" of dominance and submission and does not become involved in the dependency of subjugation. He does not split his personality to a subdued state. He cannot be incited into an aggressive-vindictive rage...

In placid circumstances this individual is a friendly, unaggressive, perennially optimistic, often charming individual who becomes radiant like a sunflower when flattered. Rather than be embarrassed by adulation, he will revel in it. Whatever his station in life, he will not be able to resist the temptation to mount the podium if the opportunity presents itself. If he has even mediocre talent, he will be a compulsive jokester, mimic, an amateur singer, or will play some kind of musical instrument... As an engineer, a businessman or a physician his genuinely friendly manner may mystify those with whom he comes in contact. They may think his extroverted affectations to be somewhat strange, and may consider him to be either incredibly naive, incredibly conceited or simply groutheaded.

[mysteriew]

I have a question. Why do we not hear more about the serial killers while they are actively operating? It seems that LE is reluctant to admit and even sometimes deny that some murders are/maybe related to other murders. The general attitude is that they do not want to panic the area where the serial murders are being committed. But instead they leave the inhabitants vulnerable, because they don't know that there is a continuing danger out there. I have seen this over and over, in many areas.

[JerseyGirl]

Why do we not hear more about the serial killers while they are actively operating? It seems that LE is reluctant to admit and even sometimes deny that some murders are/maybe related to other murders.
I agree with your point - the primary focus should be keeping the community safe in the event that a serial killer is on the loose. Do you think that this particular crime might be related to others in the area?

[LadyGraffix@mac.com]

I have a question. Why do we not hear more about the serial killers while they are actively operating? It seems that LE is reluctant to admit and even sometimes deny that some murders are/maybe related to other murders. The general attitude is that they do not want to panic the area where the serial murders are being committed. But instead they leave the inhabitants vulnerable, because they don't know that there is a continuing danger out there. I have seen this over and over, in many areas.

I wonder if part of the reason could be to cut down on the notoriety of the killer. If I understand correctly, many times serial killers are out for as much publicity and notoriety and they can get. I would think that in cases where this is a motive for the killer, any publicity would serve to feed the killers needs, encouraging him/her to kill more.

Just a thought . . . I doubt it fits all situations, but could be a factor.

[golfmom]

Scott Peterson vs. Raven Abaroa

1. Both were in sales. The sociopath personality is a natural in sales.

Sociopath, anti-social personality, psychopath. Everyone should be wary of an individual who has glib charm, a soothing voice, a penetrating gaze, dramatic gestures, and engages in meaningless flattery and vague/inconsistent responses to personal questions. http://psychological.com/april_01_newsletter.htm

2. Where Scott hung fake diplomas, Raven actually had a stuffed Raven sitting on his file cabinet in his office.

3. Both are compulsive liars.

4. Both cheated on their spouse.

5. Both tried to allued that the baby might not be theirs.

[JerseyGirl]

Golfmom, I missed the stuffed Raven and the idea that Raven alluded to the notion that Kaiden might not be his. Am I just forgetting information at this point?

[golfmom]

Golfmom, I missed the stuffed Raven and the idea that Raven alluded to the notion that Kaiden might not be his. Am I just forgetting information at this point?

No, I'm just passing along info . . .

[juliagoulia]

Scott Peterson vs. Raven Abaroa

1. Both were in sales. The sociopath personality is a natural in sales.

Sociopath, anti-social personality, psychopath. Everyone should be wary of an individual who has glib charm, a soothing voice, a penetrating gaze, dramatic gestures, and engages in meaningless flattery and vague/inconsistent responses to personal questions. http://psychological.com/april_01_newsletter.htm

2. Where Scott hung fake diplomas, Raven actually had a stuffed Raven sitting on his file cabinet in his office.

3. Both are compulsive liars.

4. Both cheated on their spouse.

5. Both tried to allued that the baby might not be theirs.
6. Scott claimed to be out posting "Help Find Laci" flyers while he sat in his parked truck; Raven claims to be going back to Durham to talk to/help the Police.

[golfmom]

6. Scott claimed to be out posting "Help Find Laci" flyers while he sat in his parked truck; Raven claims to be going back to Durham to talk to/help the Police.

hmmmm there's a correlation here too

soccer fields vs. golf courses vs. fishy alibis

[Thinkoflaura]

Janet Abaroa's life was tragically ended by a murderer. This thread will discuss some of the personality disorders often associated with murderers, and the role that those disorders may or may not have played in this case.Anti-Social Personality disordered with Narcissistic Personality disorder axis.
That's the most likely diagnosis of Raven, whether he killed Janet or not.

Factors which caused him to be " like this" are not personality disorders, but if what he wrote in his " I am a bird" entry is anywhere near correct, then he had a very tumultuous childhood with lack of attachment formation which manifests itself as Borderline Personality Disorder.
He never learned to identify or bond with another adult Borderline PD and Anti-Social PD.
He is neither Schizoid or psychotic.

Someone taught him to hate early.. from all indications these kids hate their father. It's very very unusual for a child to be able to truly hate a parent. If he had feelings of hatred before the age of 12, then it is certainly pathologic and is a feature of Attachment disorder and Anti-Social personality disorder as well.

The Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the one he must maintain. Take that self- love away and put insight in its place and we will see brains blown all over the walls.
In a nutshell, Raven's basic needs of trust, of having a parent who was there for him and who he could count on set the stage for all his future relationships. He does not trust except on a very superficial level. He has learned to hide this by writing, saying, and doing grandiose things. We've seen a bit of it already. Most of the time, the accomplishments are magnified, mostly false, because the Anti-Social Narcissist cannot sustain any relationship for a period of time. Not work, not friendships, not an interpersonal intimate relationship. Chances are, Raven's friends are or were his friends because of what HE was giving THEM. Of course, his fellow Mormons would stick by him and be friends, but he would not and can not reciprocate.

If his ego boundaries are blown away by some truth affecting HIM, then I would expect to see suicidal action and possibly homicidal against the parties he feels have betrayed him.

This is all my opinion only. There are great overlaps in the Personality Disordered, and without psychometric testing, it is impossible to say specifically what started when, except that his BLOG entry is pretty specific for his pathology formation, if it is true.

[golfmom]

I want to caution everyone the following information I have gleaned from sources. As with any information from a source, there is no real way to confirm this information except by other sources. If I’m way off base here, drop me a pm and let me know. That said . . .

I was informed that Raven actually called himself “metrosexual.” We now have a new and improved designer label to place on Raven, and once again we see him trying to fit or identify himself with another hip culture. I understand that Janet even said at one time “that if you really didn’t know Raven then you would think he is gay ... but he’s not.”

As metrosexual is still a relatively new a coined term the definition appears to be still evolving. I found the following definition posted at http://www.wordspy.com/words/metrosexual.asp

Metrosexual (met.roh.SEK.shoo.ul) n. An urban male with a strong aesthetic sense who spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle.—metrosexuality n.

I believe, the term is metrosexual is misleading because it doesn’t refer specifically to a person’s sexuality. It really doesn’t matter if the person is straight, bi, or gay, a metrosexual can be any or all of the above. However, a better term would be selfsexual, with self is the object of that person’s adoration. This person requires and expects others to view them with envy and desire.

“A metrosexual is a clotheshorse wrapped around a dandy fused with a narcissist.” wordspy

Have we yet to see anything other than a designer label? Even his truck is not just a truck, but a limited edition collector’s version, the envy of all his trucking (oops VX) buddies.

The source went on to reveal that the affairs known to this person were with women. Yet there was a sense that Raven might be bi or bi-curious. With his dyed hair, designer labels and clean cut looks, he wasn’t effeminate, but gay men were attracted to him because he fit that metrosexual stereotype. What I found interesting, was that this source revealed that they had heard speculation of Raven sexuality. That shows that people who know Raven are willing to consider the possibility of bi-sexuality.

I’m struck by Raven having a twisted adaptation of penis-envy that translated into what I’d consider life-style envy. He is the ultimate wanna-be collecting everything in sight to ensure his status. This is a man who doesn’t do good works for the sake of doing good works, but for the attention that reflects upon him. Not only, as Misterallgood pointed out, was Raven the type of man who always had a story to top yours, the status Raven painted of himself needed to top everyone’s as well.

[golfmom]

I would appreciate feedback. Hugs!

[Thinkoflaura]

I would appreciate feedback. Hugs!

Here's what I know- I sold a very expensive day planner on eBay recently with a silk lizard print faille cover and chocolate leather interior. I cross-listed it in both women's handbags, accessories and men's accessories and in the description I said that it was for today's metrosexual male.
Ive been familiar with the term for quite some time and Frasier and Niles Crane always come to mind.. They are the epitome of metrosexual.

I also dated and loved a person once who could be Raven's best friend.
He was a Male version of ME. He spent more time on his hair than I did, and he hogged the mirror time. He wore only top end things like Armani suits, Gucci shoes, and cashmere sweaters. He used the entire Chanel men's skincare line (!!!), used a tanning bed.

Unlike Raven, he was mature. He was a Greek god come to life, he was so beautiful. Oh, and I met him at MY engagement party to a friend of his.
He called me 2 days later and asked me for a date. LOL. The rest is history...

Edited to add: He was one more smooth operator too. Had a new Mercedes, decorated with MOMA design accent furniture and appliances, and Scandanavian furniture ( high end). There's nothing bad I can say about him at all, except that his appearance meant everything to him.
He excelled at his job, except that he was rather absent minded.. had rather play than work.
He was a metrosexual male.. I actually left him when I suspected that he was bi-sexual. I didn't hang around to find out.

[NCBanker]

Well this may surprise some of you, but I'm probably a good candidate to be Metrosexual. I am not, however, homosexual, and as the post indicated above, the term refers more to a desire for finer things, a sense of style, an eye for decorating, and a love of shopping.

I don't think he's homosexual, though the lack of a father figure often leads to homosexuality.

Raven hungered for the finer things because he was denied those things as a youth. He wanted to fit in and be like the others. This affects so many people in the US.


I would appreciate feedback. Hugs!

[golfmom]

I want to clarify here, I'm not saying the new metrosexual man is a bad thing, I just think that anything taken to any extreme can be bad ... and Raven seems to have a tendency to go overboard . . .

[Jenifred]

I want to clarify here, I'm not saying the new metrosexual man is a bad thing, I just think that anything taken to any extreme can be bad ... and Raven seems to have a tendency to go overboard . . .
Exactly.

What's wrong with a man that likes to shop, and then shell out money, for nice things? I mean, when you have the money!

[Thinkoflaura]

Well this may surprise some of you, but I'm probably a good candidate to be Metrosexual. I am not, however, homosexual, and as the post indicated above, the term refers more to a desire for finer things, a sense of style, an eye for decorating, and a love of shopping.

I don't think he's homosexual, though the lack of a father figure often leads to homosexuality.

Raven hungered for the finer things because he was denied those things as a youth. He wanted to fit in and be like the others. This affects so many people in the US.

You know, I look back now and realize that my former lover was not bisexual either.. He was just so much like me at that time that it was confusing after a while, LOL.

A metrosexual male is my ultimate man. I am much more attuned and appreciate the fact that they know what Harris tweed is and have their own vintage Burberry coat like I have, and know why Tod's driving shoes are cool.
It's all about materialism, I agree, and a neatness which, God knows, my spouse lacks one hint of having. It's kind of like " Animal House" with him around.
With my old BF, it was just like " Frasier". We would discuss which wine to have with dinner for at least 45 minutes and we always had imported cheeses and all of that. He was probably the most fun man I have ever known. I wish I had him back!!! ( NCBanker, no disrespect meant regarding the wine), .

[NCBanker]

None taken! I have more $$ to spend clothes since I don't buy wine, coffee or cigarettes!

You know, I look back now and realize that my former lover was not bisexual either.. He was just so much like me at that time that it was confusing after a while, LOL.

A metrosexual male is my ultimate man. I am much more attuned and appreciate the fact that they know what Harris tweed is and have their own vintage Burberry coat like I have, and know why Tod's driving shoes are cool.
It's all about materialism, I agree, and a neatness which, God knows, my spouse lacks one hint of having. It's kind of like " Animal House" with him around.
With my old BF, it was just like " Frasier". We would discuss which wine to have with dinner for at least 45 minutes and we always had imported cheeses and all of that. He was probably the most fun man I have ever known. I wish I had him back!!! ( NCBanker, no disrespect meant regarding the wine), .

[anneshirley]

Well this may surprise some of you, but I'm probably a good candidate to be Metrosexual. I am not, however, homosexual, and as the post indicated above, the term refers more to a desire for finer things, a sense of style, an eye for decorating, and a love of shopping.

I don't think he's homosexual, though the lack of a father figure often leads to homosexuality.

Raven hungered for the finer things because he was denied those things as a youth. He wanted to fit in and be like the others. This affects so many people in the US.
I agree with NCBanker. I don't think he's gay. I mean, there are some warning signs that would indicate that he may be bisexual (NCBanker is right-lack of a father figure during childhood often does lead to a boy growing up constantly needing male attention, which leads to homosexuality; and other factors: his style saavy, and his untypical "male" behaviors (no offense to anyone posting who is Homosexual. I certainly don't want to generalize gay men in such a way ) BUT I have seen Raven in action. I think when people say he flirted with co-workers of both genders, they were seeing Raven be Raven...trying to charm everyone in the room. It's all about appearance and getting people to like you.
My theory as to why we haven't heard a mistress come forward is that she might be another mormon. or that she is married.
While there is forgiveness for adultery in the Mormon religion, it certainly is looked down on in the Mormon church (in essence, you're part of destroying an eternal marriage...that's serious business).
If she is already marriage, coming forward would only hurt her family more.
THIS is PURE SPECULATION, though.
I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[Thinkoflaura]

I agree with NCBanker. I don't think he's gay. I mean, there are some warning signs that would indicate that he may be bisexual (NCBanker is right-lack of a father figure during childhood often does lead to a boy growing up constantly needing male attention, which leads to homosexuality; and other factors: his style saavy, and his untypical "male" behaviors (no offense to anyone posting who is Homosexual. I certainly don't want to generalize gay men in such a way ) BUT I have seen Raven in action. I think when people say he flirted with co-workers of both genders, they were seeing Raven be Raven...trying to charm everyone in the room. It's all about appearance and getting people to like you.
My theory as to why we haven't heard a mistress come forward is that she might be another mormon. or that she is married.
While there is forgiveness for adultery in the Mormon religion, it certainly is looked down on in the Mormon church (in essence, you're part of destroying an eternal marriage...that's serious business).
If she is already marriage, coming forward would only hurt her family more.
THIS is PURE SPECULATION, though.
I just thought I'd throw it out there.

It just hit me reading your post- the guy I knew had CHARISMA. It exuded from him like a glow. AND, at the time, I had it too.
He arrived at my engagement party to a friend of his via water.. He stepped off his yacht and all I could think of were the lyrics to the Carly Simon song " You're So Vain".
Men were jealous of him, yet also kind of in awe of his perfection too.
Women, well, that goes without saying, LOL.
The charasmatic attitude and presence was a huge factor.

[JerseyGirl]

Well this may surprise some of you, but I'm probably a good candidate to be Metrosexual. I am not, however, homosexual, and as the post indicated above, the term refers more to a desire for finer things, a sense of style, an eye for decorating, and a love of shopping.

I don't think he's homosexual, though the lack of a father figure often leads to homosexuality.

Raven hungered for the finer things because he was denied those things as a youth. He wanted to fit in and be like the others. This affects so many people in the US.Many women, including myself, would be very happy to have a metrosexual mate. Nothing wrong with it - I agree with your assessment about the desire for finer things, and I think that that's great as long as it doesn't inch its way over into materialism.

I disagree, however, with the lack of a father figure leading to homosexuality. I think it's a lot more complicated than that but since it's off-topic, I'll leave it at that. :)

[golfmom]

I have been informed that Raven also drove 2+ hours to get his hair colored and also had his arms and legs waxed regularly.

[JerseyGirl]

My theory as to why we haven't heard a mistress come forward is that she might be another mormon. or that she is married.
While there is forgiveness for adultery in the Mormon religion, it certainly is looked down on in the Mormon church (in essence, you're part of destroying an eternal marriage...that's serious business).
If she is already marriage, coming forward would only hurt her family more.I think you might be right. Either one of the above or Raven's indiscretions, (if they in fact exist), were many one-night stands as opposed to an ongoing relationship with one woman that could provide a motive like we saw in the Scott Peterson case. If Raven had a bunch of flings, there's a chance that the women with whom he galavanted aren't even aware that their experiences with him might be important to mention to LE.

ETA: Amber Frey was very brave. I'm sure that a lot of people would be afraid to come forward in similar circumstances for fear that they could be harmed as well - especially if the accused ends up getting acquitted.

[vero]

I think you might be right. Either one of the above or Raven's indiscretions, (if they in fact exist), were many one-night stands as opposed to an ongoing relationship with one woman that could provide a motive like we saw in the Scott Peterson case. If Raven had a bunch of flings, there's a chance that the women with whom he galavanted aren't even aware that their experiences with him might be important to mention to LE.

ETA: Amber Frey was very brave. I'm sure that a lot of people would be afraid to come forward in similar circumstances for fear that they could be harmed as well - especially if the accused ends up getting acquitted.
Especially after seeing how Amber got torn up in the press and on the boards.

[misterallgood]

I have been informed that Raven also drove 2+ hours to get his hair colored and also had his arms and legs waxed regularly.
And that's not metrosexual -- which some would argue I'm one as well -- but purely and deeply narcissistic.

[Jenifred]

And that's not metrosexual -- which some would argue I'm one as well -- but purely and deeply narcissistic.Metrosexuals are all into those kinds of things--good hairdresser, facials, manicures, etc. Body waxing might be a little extreme, but it falls into the taking care of oneself.

But there are some characteristics of Raven that are opposite of the metrosexual lifestyle. Fixation on sports, for one. I read that metrosexuals would prefer reading a book to going to a hockey game. But a famous metrosexual is David Beckham, so go figure.

[JerseyGirl]

Especially after seeing how Amber got torn up in the press and on the boards.Exactly. Why put your life, (and the lives of those around you), under a microscope, and possibly in danger if you're not even sure that what you have to say is important?

[golfmom]

I'm not sure if Raven being one or not is really all that important, but that he wanted to be identified and belong to that group is, and that he spent a lot of the family resources (resources they didn't have) on making sure the image fit. He wanted the total package apparently.

[anneshirley]

Exactly. Why put your life, (and the lives of those around you), under a microscope, and possibly in danger if you're not even sure that what you have to say is important?
plus, if she/they are Mormon...that's a heck of a lot of guilt to carry around with you. I certainly wouldn't want to rehash that in front of the media and especially my family. I can understand the silence...even though she/they might be able to give us some relevant info. It seems she/they, too, have taken the code of silence. hmmm...

[golfmom]

1. He drove 1 1/2 - 2 hours to get his hair done by a specific stylist. For haircuts and lots of highlights. One day he had highlights, soon after he became completely bleached blond, the within a couple of months he dyed his hair jet black and then back again to the dark hair with blond highlights.

Note: this information fits perfectly with the photos up at ravenstree.

2. He tanned at a tanning bed to keep that bronze always tanned look.

3. He shaved his legs

4. He shaved his chest

5. Always worried about his looks

6. Several gay men who are open about their sexuality always said their "gaydar" ( gay man's radar) would go off everytime he walked by.

eta: If RA is a person of interest and convicted of his crime, I'm not sure this is a look he'll want to continue with. :silenced:

[Timex]

Sounds to me like so many of todays younger men. Heck, the guys my kids hang out with spend major money on their appearance. Its a running joke anymore about the guys spending more time and money on hair products than the girls. My daughter was telling me the other day how "X" spends $45.00 a WEEK to keep his hair trimmed to the exact length he wants.


There was a thread in the juryroom I think, about "todays man", more or less saying they are not the masculine types we once thought of.

[JerseyGirl]

I agree, Timex. It's becoming quite common. I think that American men are finally taking a page out of the book of European men. Of course, not ALL people of any one group are all the same but European men have been long known to get manicures, appreciate the arts, etc. I LOVE it. Wish my man was more metrosexual and less neanderthal. :rolleyes: *sigh*

[golfmom]

I thought this information perhaps might help us with tracking down the information regarding an assault on a referee:

This person explained that the assult on the ref was in a league in Chapel Hill (Orange County), however they didn't know the league name. Additionally, I was told that he fought with someone in the Durham league that he played in for work. This person thought Raven was kicked off the team after that.