Triple Homicide - Crime scene, motive, etc.

[Liz]

5/20/05
Victims in CdA homicides were bludgeoned

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:ukjTgFyfLHMJ:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D70581+groene+%2B+spokesman+review&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

It's still unclear what the killer's motive could be, according to authorities. Watson said the house was not a methamphetamine lab and he didn't see evidence of drugs when he walked through the crime scene. "We've busted a lot of drug labs," he said. "They don't mow their lawns and plant flowers, and she did."

Gang involvement is another possibility, and Watson had the Spokane County gang unit visit the murder scene to see if there were any trademarks of a gang-related crime. "They left without telling me yes," he said.

Anything's possible, Wolfinger said.

"We're not ruling out anything at this time," he said. "There's no door closed on anything except Mr. Lutner" as a suspect.


One of the questions I'd previously asked is answered in the article above.

Lutner did tell investigators that there was a gathering at the home Sunday evening involving an undetermined number of people, Wolfinger said. The family, including the two youngest children, were home during the party, Lutner told police.

[Liz]

This is a re-post. I hope no one minds. I think it might be interesting to refer back to.

True crime author and former Seattle detective, Ann Rule, weighed in with her opinion:


She suspects that 'grudge' is the motive here.

She said that someone that had a deep hatred for the victims or a deep hatred for someone who cares deeply for the victims.

She suspects that the killer or killers in the Wolf Lodge Bay case are part of a drug ring, cult, or gang; someone who lives by a completely different set of values capable of beating to death three people and can leave the crime scene with no remorse.

As to why the killer might spare the two missing Groene children might be answered by finding out what kind of relationship the killer had with the kids before the murders.


That deep hatred for the victims, or for someone who cares deeply for them part, really does intrigue me.

[Liz]

Brought from original Groene thread (now closed) -

I was wondering the same thing about who owned the car? I agree that I can't see the car someone was ordered into being left at the scene. I also read somewhere on this board that being told to get in the car was a rumor. Does anyone know what door of the car was left open? If it was the front, it could mean someone came home (maybe the boyfriend) heard screams, and ran quickly leaving the door open. Or, maybe one of them tried to escape, got the door open before being dragged back in and made a last effort to hang onto the front door of the house which would explain how the blood got there.

Again, this is just my opinion . . .


Kahskye, after watching Geraldo interview Vance, I 'am guessing' based on what Vance said that this car very well may belong to "Bob", aka "Concrete Bob", and family friend, Bob Lutner.

When the neighbor called 9-1-1, he said that the car or truck belonged to a friend of theirs, so I am just putting 2 and 2 together.

I've been scratching my head trying to figure out why Bob Lutner's car might be there. The only plausible guess I could come up with is if he had commited the murders, and in the frenzy lost his vehicle keys. And, had to end up taking some other vehicle that was on the premises. Pure speculative guess and not necessarily my opinion. ;) Because, afterall, he has been cleared by investigators!

I am probably the one that said that I think that rumor about someone yelling "get back in the car", is just that - rumor. No one has yet to provide a link that backs it up. Everything else I've read or heard says nobody heard anything that fateful night.

[PrayersForMaura]

One thing which I'm sure is addressed somewhere on the locked thread:
if the pit bull was in the house while these attacks were going on and didn't attack the attackers, then that dog is the most bass ackward pit bull ever.
From what I know of those dogs, they are very protective of their owners BUT can also turn on their owners, too...

Does anyone know more about the dog??

Sorry if it's already posted, I may have missed it.
Thanks

[Liz]

One thing which I'm sure is addressed somewhere on the locked thread:
if the pit bull was in the house while these attacks were going on and didn't attack the attackers, then that dog is the most bass ackward pit bull ever.
From what I know of those dogs, they are very protective of their owners BUT can also turn on their owners, too...

Does anyone know more about the dog??

Sorry if it's already posted, I may have missed it.
Thanks

It's one of those topics we've heard conflicting information on. Vance said on Geraldo, "I've got a 90 lb pit bull" and said his mother had a Brittany Spaniel that had some time previously bitten their neighbor, that the dog was familiar with.

Capt. Wolfinger contradicted that, saying the investigators had no problem accessing the property or the house; and that they dogs were safely captured without incident.

Early this morning, Fox news reported that those dumpsters located less than 2 miles from the Groene residence, had been emptied out approximately 12 hours before police were alerted to the crime scene. Investigators have reason to believe that some evidence may have been dumped there.

Today on local news, someone asked one of the investigators just how much evidence they had collected. He replied that there was so much evidence, they had to rent a u-haul trailer to get it all to Quantico in. Wow! :eek:

[Yeah,me]

Maybe Lutner happened upon the scene as the attacks were happening and he ran off on foot after losing his keys in the dark. What I want to know is HOW LE knew to look for him in the first place? Jesse was the one that said he was there, but how would he know while he's in lockup? Jesse, I noticed, tried several times in his interview to point suspicion to Lutner and now, all of a sudden, all of his interviews and quotes have been removed from any press websites.

[Liz]

Maybe Lutner happened upon the scene as the attacks were happening and he ran off on foot after losing his keys in the dark. What I want to know is HOW LE knew to look for him in the first place? Jesse was the one that said he was there, but how would he know while he's in lockup? Jesse, I noticed, tried several times in his interview to point suspicion to Lutner and now, all of a sudden, all of his interviews and quotes have been removed from any press websites.


LE would have known to look for him, IF it was his vehicle parked at Mark and Brenda's.

Everything that I can recall reading online, in which Jesse talked about Lutner, was in a positive light, saying that Lutner was good friends of the family. So, I don't know what to say about that allegation, except it makes me more confused.

IF he knew Lutner was at his mom's Sunday, either it was just the norm, or she told Jesse that Bob was coming over when she spoke to him on the phone Saturday. Either that or he must be psychic. :p

[TisHerself]

I read somewhere that a neighbour told LE that they saw Lutner at the house Sunday Night.

[mysteriew]

DNA Analysis Shows No Blood of Two Missing Children, Raising Hopes They're Still Alive

Preliminary DNA tests showed no traces of the blood of two missing children in the home where three other people were slain, raising hopes that Dylan and Shasta Groene are still alive, officials said Thursday.

Only the blood of the three murder victims the missing children's mother and older brother and the mother's boyfriend was found at the scene, according to initial analysis by the FBI.

"There is no indication that any of the blood is from the children," Kootenai County Sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger said. "It bolsters our feeling the children are alive and we'll recover them and bring them home."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=794196

[ShowerSinger]

Wondering about a few things...
That campground opening on May 15 under "Christian" ownership---reminds me of those 2 camp counselors killed in California, and I think 2 people were killed in Arizona in their truck(can anyone refresh my memory:)?)
Also makes me wonder about who worked there--groundskeepers, etc.
Another familiar ring was that case in Mississippi where the relative killed that entire family, and drove them off, and then killed the 2 boys?
Also reminds me of the Yosemite murders of the mom, her daughter, and a visting friend---later found murdered on some off road--took a while to find the victims.
Again, I'm reminded of the serial killer in an Alabama prison who murdered the Laura Bible girl, and her friend, whose bodies have yet to be found. But, he left the parents dead at the house.

[SauerKraut]

Wondering about a few things...
That campground opening on May 15 under "Christian" ownership---reminds me of those 2 camp counselors killed in California, and I think 2 people were killed in Arizona in their truck(can anyone refresh my memory:)?)

HEY, I mentioned the Christian thing yesterday. It IS eerily family to what happened in Jenner with the camp counselors. There was a portion of the thread that talked about the unsolved murder in N. Cal. of family members, one girl was kidnapped and later found dead. Long story, I tried to search the threads for the exact ones but I'm having trouble. I'm doing something wrong with the search.

Anyway, I think it is possible, I think however it might be an idea for LE, if they haven't already, sit down with Jesse, Vance, Lutner and crack some heads.

And those are other questions too, about the truck: Was there a family vehicle missing, was there an extra vehicle there? It goes to show how little they are telling the public.

[Liz]

snip>>> Anyway, I think it is possible, I think however it might be an idea for LE, if they haven't already, sit down with Jesse, Vance, Lutner and crack some heads.

And those are other questions too, about the truck: Was there a family vehicle missing, was there an extra vehicle there? It goes to show how little they are telling the public.


I agree! Call them all in at once and maybe even Steve, too; and questioning them separately, would be a smart thing to do.

We can only guess that things that are not being released is for a reason.

Heads up Geraldo going to cover the case up next!

[ShowerSinger]

I read somewhere on one of these threads that the mom had to request a public defender for one of her sons, because he was in some juvenile assault altercation? Which son, and what did he do to whom? AND it said she was 50k in debt, since her divorce. In debt to who(m)?
Money owed can really anger someone(s), and juvenile rage assaults can, also! (Fights over the stupidest things, especially girls at this age!)

[Tom'sGirl]

HEY, I mentioned the Christian thing yesterday. It IS eerily family to what happened in Jenner with the camp counselors. There was a portion of the thread that talked about the unsolved murder in N. Cal. of family members, one girl was kidnapped and later found dead. Long story, I tried to search the threads for the exact ones but I'm having trouble. I'm doing something wrong with the search.

Anyway, I think it is possible, I think however it might be an idea for LE, if they haven't already, sit down with Jesse, Vance, Lutner and crack some heads.

And those are other questions too, about the truck: Was there a family vehicle missing, was there an extra vehicle there? It goes to show how little they are telling the public.
Too many un-answered questions for sure!

[Liz]

Moving this info that was report on tonight's AMW because I deleted the AMW thread.

One of the investigators said that the killer or killers seemed to be very determined or commited to what they were doing. The rain the night before the murders was blamed for possibly washing the kids scent away. The house has been boarded up and investigators have practically gutted the house collecting as much evidence as possible especially evidence from the children's bedrooms. ??? hmmmm.....

I would like to know more about the vehicle or truck that was found near the neighbor's barn. That sounds suspicious, doesn't it? Anyone know if it was an old junker or a newer model?

[CaliKid]

I watched AMW tonight, and they say they are now checking landfills in the area as well as dumpsters for any signs of evidence. They didn't specify bodies, but who knows. CdA is very woodsy with lots of surrounding waterways and it wouldn't be hard to dispose of someone, never to be seen or heard from again.

[akgal]

Did anyone watch Geraldo and did he say anything new? I missed it. TIA!

[Liz]

Did anyone watch Geraldo and did he say anything new? I missed it. TIA!

Nothing really, akgal. He played a blip of a clip from his interview with Steve last week. He had Dave Turner on from the CdA Press, who said it was a slow news week, except for finding out the children's blood wasn't found at the house. He had Steve's bro-in-law, Bob Price (Wendy's husband), on by phone and they said the family seemed to be holding up as well as could be expected. He said family are hopeful that the next wave from Quantico would bring some fingerprint evidence.

That was about it.

[Lili]

I would like to know more about the vehicle or truck that was found near the neighbor's barn. That sounds suspicious, doesn't it? Anyone know if it was an old junker or a newer model?
The truck that I saw being hauled on a flatbed was an older dark blue pickup. I want to say maybe pre-80's, but I am not sure.

Last night I was thinking about it and I wonder if it was a stolen vehicle and if
the sealed search warrent was for that truck and they lifted prints from it. Would they need a warrent to cover their azz for searching an abandoned vehicle? Especially since it was near a crime scene? I don't know, just a thought.

[Timex]

I would think no search warrant would be neccesary..for two reasons.

1) the abandoned vehicle would be the same as trash...once you throw something away, it is no longer yours, and a warrant is no longer needed.

2) the owner of the property where the vehicle was abandoned could give permission for LE to search the vehicle.

[Lili]

That makes sense, and was my thought, but I wasn't sure. I know around here abandoned vehicles are just hauled off and held for a period of time. The only reason I could think of a warrant in that case was, like I said, because it was so near a crime scene.

Also, if it was left there by the actors in this crime, there must have been another vehicle used to leave the scene. Either they took one of the victim's vehicles or there were additional actors involved with another vehicle. The neighbor said both the victim's vehicles were at the house.

[mysteriew]

Investigators said Lutner, who passed a polygraph test, told them there was a "typical Sunday barbecue" party at the home the night before the bodies were found.

But Kootenai County Coroner Dr. Robert West said there was no alcohol found in the systems of any of the victims.

• There is still no explanation made public what Steve Groene meant when he said "they have nothing to do with anything" when pleading with his children's potential abductor.

On Friday, investigators returned to the Fighting Creek landfill to sift through garbage collected from the area of the murder scene.

"They haven't come up with anything at this point," Wolfinger said Friday morning.

[Brie]

It seems to me that we can reasonably assume that the children were take ALIVE from the scene..... someone said that the 13 year old may have witnessed the murder and there fore was killed also. That makes sense, but it's still such a strange situation..... I think LE must know more than they are releasing...

[Tom'sGirl]

I would think no search warrant would be neccesary..for two reasons.

1) the abandoned vehicle would be the same as trash...once you throw something away, it is no longer yours, and a warrant is no longer needed.

2) the owner of the property where the vehicle was abandoned could give permission for LE to search the vehicle.The neighbor (Mr. Hollingsworth) said in the 911 call that he knew the guy the truck belonged to. He said it was a friend of his his neighbors. this was posted on another thread!

[Liz]

In searching for an obitituary for Mark, I googled up a 5/27/05 news report, that I had not yet seen.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:08Q4YJZU2R0J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D71643+Obituaries+%3D+Mark+McKenzi e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

>>>snip>>>
Steve McKenzie said he stopped by his brother's Wolf Lodge area home that afternoon (Sun, 5/15) and left his son there to play with Shasta and Dylan while he went to visit Ralph McKenzie, Steve and Mark's father. >>snip>>

"Nothing was out of the ordinary," Steve McKenzie recalled. His brother "didn't mention anything about conflicts with anybody, or have any reason to be nervous about anything. They weren't drinking ? >>>snip>>>

"Mark was unloading firewood. They were talking about getting some movies."

Ken Francis, Mark McKenzie's friend and hunting buddy of 20-some years, said he also stopped by after spending a good part of the day bear hunting and looking for deer and elk antlers. >>>snip>>>

"We want the kids back," Ralph McKenzie said. >>>>end<<<<

=================================

Lengthy article and much more to read there. I snipped a lot more so as not to violate copyright laws.

This should bring forth some new theories, since it seems that there is the possibility that the family, or part of the family, left the home at some point to go get some videos to watch that evening.

Makes me wonder if that barbeque get together didn't end before sun went down. Remember, it was pitch dark in that house, when the neighbor stopped by to pay Slade. Possibly no tv or lights were ever turned on Sunday evening?

[Tom'sGirl]

In searching for an obitituary for Mark, I googled up a 5/27/05 news report, that I had not yet seen.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:08Q4YJZU2R0J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D71643+Obituaries+%3D+Mark+McKenzi e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Makes me wonder if that barbeque get together didn't end before sun went down. Remember, it was pitch dark in that house, when the neighbor stopped by to pay Slade. Possibly no tv or lights were ever turned on Sunday evening?Good girl Liz, good link!:clap:

I hadn't read that!

It could have been like Mrs. Wood said (I think it was his mom) "that there was no barbeque"............just burgers'n'fries.

Until the LE release all the information which would include if the BBQ had been used will we won't know.

[Liz]

Good girl Liz, good link!:clap:

I hadn't read that!

It could have been like Mrs. Wood said (I think it was his mom) "that there was no barbeque"............just burgers'n'fries.

Until the LE release all the information which would include if the BBQ had been used will we won't know.

Thanks, TG! I'm surprised no one had found that info before me? :confused: (If it hadn't been for you asking about Mark's obit, I wouldn't have even looked, so thank you!)

I was just reading the English Chapel Memorial Guest book again, and one of the entrants commented about never forgetting the fun had at Brenda's barbecues So, Brenda's bbqs sound like a normal weekend thing, to me. That person was in ND now.

Here's a quick link if you're interested in reading it yourself:

http://www.englishfuneralchapel.com/English/Current_Services.htm

[Tom'sGirl]

Thanks, TG! I'm surprised no one had found that info before me? :confused: (If it hadn't been for you asking about Mark's obit, I wouldn't have even looked, so thank you!)

I was just reading the English Chapel Memorial Guest book again, and one of the entrants commented about never forgetting the fun had at Brenda's barbecues So, Brenda's bbqs sound like a normal weekend thing, to me. That person was in ND now.

Here's a quick link if you're interested in reading it yourself:

http://www.englishfuneralchapel.com/English/Current_Services.htmI read those posts and I thought I wonder if that gal was just saying that or was it fact?

I was suprised that they're weren't more postings from her friends she worked with, and all the others she's known most of her life in that area.

Damn, I getting syncial:banghead:

[Wayne]

There has been much discussion about drugs and money.

Hypothetically ...

What if Shasta and Dylan found a sack in one place and buried it elsewhere. The sack could contain anything - cash, jewerly, rare coins - anything. The people (perp or perps) who the sack belonged to perhaps had Jesse hide it - its contents being a cache from the burglaries. The perp(s) returned to claim the sack and its contents. Only Dylan and Shasta had found it and buried it - as hidden treasure. The perp(s) who worked with Jesse may be killers (or ex-cons with two strikes) already so the perp(s) kill the three and take the younger two who are easy to control - to use threats of violence against one to control the other (Dylan cooperates out of fear physical harm will come to Shasta and Shasta cooperates out of fear physical harm will come to Dylan). So, Dylan or Shasta take the perp (pr perps) to where the treasure is hidden - only they'd be killed after the perp(s) get the sack back and its contents or they'd be kept as insurance that Jesse keeps quiet at his sentencing.

Does that make sense?

[dannyodie]

wayne, in this case seems like nothing is making much sense. this case has some very close resemblance to the other case where the man was bound with tape and zip ties and beaten, he survived, and the perps are in jail. I hope that the police look real hard into these folks. they should just for the sake of it all spray luminol in their car to see if there is blood traces in it. right now, just about any theorie could stand out. I feel that the person that did this may have been at the BBQ, this has to be someone that they knew. If the children were the only reason for this, the perp would have chosen to just abduct them while they were going to school etc. child abductors about 99% of the time have one single victim to take, this is the first that two went missing together, but this is not a child preditor, but a team of people that did this, one person could not have done this without someone getting loose and going for help. the trio that is in jail for a similar crime only 10 miles from the triple murder scene is a very promising lead, and the fbi should be all over those perps. maybe the girl in that bunch knew brenda.

[close_enough]

some pictures i hadn't seen....slideshow also....

http://nbates.photosite.com/Idaho/

[Vet4Bush]

The robbery that took place only 10 miles from the Groene killings near Spokane seems to be very similar to the Groene event. The use of zip ties, clubbing upside the head, ransacking the house all seem to be the same in both incidents. The victim in Washington did not want to call the police, his neighbor did. Maybe he was somebody who was well known by the police. Maybe the same people who did him also did the Groene's. The Groene killings could have been a robbery that went bad for some reason. Maybe the robbers were picking their victims from drugees and dealers who might not call the police to report the robberies.

[close_enough]

The robbery that took place only 10 miles from the Groene killings near Spokane seems to be very similar to the Groene event. The use of zip ties, clubbing upside the head, ransacking the house all seem to be the same in both incidents. The victim in Washington did not want to call the police, his neighbor did. Maybe he was somebody who was well known by the police. Maybe the same people who did him also did the Groene's. The Groene killings could have been a robbery that went bad for some reason. Maybe the robbers were picking their victims from drugees and dealers who might not call the police to report the robberies.

you have a point...drugs weren't mentioned w/the guy in Washington, but that doesn't mean he wasn't on probation for something along those lines...if these 2 cases are related, i would think we'll be hearing something about it, soon...i just don't think they are though....

[Liz]

some pictures i hadn't seen....slideshow also....

http://nbates.photosite.com/Idaho/


Thanks for the pix, c_e! :)

[Wayne]

you have a point...drugs weren't mentioned w/the guy in Washington, but that doesn't mean he wasn't on probation for something along those lines...if these 2 cases are related, i would think we'll be hearing something about it, soon...i just don't think they are though....
I tend to agree. IMO, if the two cases were related, I tend to think LE in Idaho would have said something by now. The silence from LE in Idaho is telling me the two cases are NOT related.

[CaliKid]

I tend to agree. IMO, if the two cases were related, I tend to think LE in Idaho would have said something by now. The silence from LE in Idaho is telling me the two cases are NOT related.
Unless LE is trying to put together a case, Dylan and Shasta are still alive and LE is afraid of jeopardising the kids' lives by releasing the evidence they have.

[dannyodie]

Thanks for the pix, c_e! :)
whos does the chevy truck and bronco belong too? is the bronco the one with the blood on the door? looks to me that the bronco has blood on the door, if it is, it appears to be a fair amount of it. whoever handled that door must have had lots of blood on them. I am sure that the person that did this must have been blood covered. hey heres an idea. may not work but who knows. maybe they should release a fiblet of info indicating that the mother had indications of having hiv, maybe the perp would be concerned enough to go to a doctor and have himself tested? this being the case maybe within a few days to a few weeks someone will show up and names could be gathered? blood splatter had to have gotten into the eyes of the killer. just a wild thought. but probably the only blockade to this idea, is doctor / patient records release to a third party. I am sure one of those trucks if not both may have been the boyfriends? someone was looking for something or the truck door would not have been left open. was there any mention if the glove compartment was open? seems to me that if the kids made a run for it that they would have run to the neighbors home or screamed real loud.

[CaliKid]

whos does the chevy truck and bronco belong too? is the bronco the one with the blood on the door? looks to me that the bronco has blood on the door, if it is, it appears to be a fair amount of it. whoever handled that door must have had lots of blood on them. I am sure that the person that did this must have been blood covered. hey heres an idea. may not work but who knows. maybe they should release a fiblet of info indicating that the mother had indications of having hiv, maybe the perp would be concerned enough to go to a doctor and have himself tested? this being the case maybe within a few days to a few weeks someone will show up and names could be gathered? blood splatter had to have gotten into the eyes of the killer. just a wild thought. but probably the only blockade to this idea, is doctor / patient records release to a third party. I am sure one of those trucks if not both may have been the boyfriends? someone was looking for something or the truck door would not have been left open. was there any mention if the glove compartment was open? seems to me that if the kids made a run for it that they would have run to the neighbors home or screamed real loud.
I didn't hear that the door of the truck had blood on it. I thought it was the door of the house. Did they both have blood on the doors?

[dannyodie]

calikid:

seems I read that the neighbor mentioned something about a vehicle having blood spot on the truck door, but with sooooo many post being made on all different subjects I could be mistaken, but it seemed that I read that here early on? does anyone know how far from canada the murder scene is? either the kids are no longer with us, or they are still in the area or even in canada, the perps had many hours to do what ever they had to before the scene was discovered by the neighbor.

[Wayne]

calikid:

seems I read that the neighbor mentioned something about a vehicle having blood spot on the truck door, but with sooooo many post being made on all different subjects I could be mistaken, but it seemed that I read that here early on? does anyone know how far from canada the murder scene is? either the kids are no longer with us, or they are still in the area or even in canada, the perps had many hours to do what ever they had to before the scene was discovered by the neighbor.dannyodie:

I don't think you are mistaken. I too recall hearing / reading about blood on a truck's door. Then, I heard / read about blood on a house door. It is possible the news report got it mixed up.

Reading this link (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php):
A neighbor who came by on May 16 to pay Slade Groene for mowing his lawn called police after finding the house quiet and the front door handle covered with blood.
Front door handle can be a door knob to a door or car/truck's door handle. I think that might be the source of confussion.

Would not be the first time. I heard / read very early reports (multiple reports including TV news) that Shasta and Dylan were last seen getting off the school bus that Monday afternoon. Then, I heard / read they were last seen at the BBQ Sunday night, a line that even LE has stayed with.

I tend to agree - Shasta and Dylan could be dead or they could still be held captive. Or maybe - just maybe - LE has them in witness protection or some other program for their own safety.

Edited to add the link and quote.

[CaliKid]

Wayne, do you think LE would have them in witness protection and put on a sham search to give the impression that they're missing?

[Wayne]

Wayne, do you think LE would have them in witness protection and put on a sham search to give the impression that they're missing?
For the children's safety, IMO, any thing is possible.

One thing I noticed... the news coverage has declined drastically. As has the LE search efforts. About ten days ago, I read a posting in a different forum where someone said they suspected LE knew exactly where the children were located. I wonder if LE did act and took the children into protective custody (witness protection) for their own safety.

I could very well be wrong.

[CaliKid]

I agree that there has been very little lately about the Groene children. I know this happens when a missing child's case goes cold, but we aren't hearing anything about LE pursuing so-called questionable polygraphs, etc. I truly hope with all my heart that they have been located and hidden.

[Wayne]

I agree that there has been very little lately about the Groene children. I know this happens when a missing child's case goes cold, but we aren't hearing anything about LE pursuing so-called questionable polygraphs, etc. I truly hope with all my heart that they have been located and hidden.

I have spent time this evening reviewing news clips ...

I read at this link (http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/11816344.htm):
Andrew Vachss, a New York City author and attorney who specializes in studying crimes against children, is intrigued by the case.

He said the killers apparently had complex motives because they bound and likely interrogated the murder victims. That could indicate a dispute over drugs or money that exploded in a rage of violence, he said. There was likely more than one killer since the victims were bound, he said.

He does not think the children were deliberately abducted to be sold for sex or into slavery, because the perpetrators of such crimes would not likely draw extensive attention to themselves by killing three people.
And I read at this link (http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=37064):
Investigators believe the children were in the house as the victims were bound and bludgeoned, and may have been abducted by the killers ...

Authorities still do not have a suspect or motive for the crimes, and have said they have no idea where the children are. But they are convinced the missing children were home at the time of the slayings ...

Brenda Groene and other members of the family had been mixed up in drugs and petty crime over the years, but investigators have not publicly connected any of that to the slayings ...

Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson has speculated there was more than one killer because all the victims were bound. Officers also suspect the killer or killers were known to the victims, because there was no sign of forced entry.
And last, I read at this link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/national/printable696720.shtml):
(Steve) Groene said he had no idea who (was) ... Robert Roy Lutner, 33, who was ruled out as a suspect Thursday after an interview with investigators.

The concrete worker voluntarily took and passed a polygraph test during a seven-hour interview with investigators. Lutner said he saw the three alive when he attended a "barbecue-type get-together" Sunday night at the family's rural home less than 24 hours before the bodies were found.

He (Lutner) remained in custody Thursday on a probation violation warrant unrelated to the slayings and child disappearances, authorities said.

The fact LE has kept Lutner locked up is telling me he is locked up for his own safety. If he is locked up for his safety, then I think Lutner took the children and, for over two days (Monday, Tuesday, and a portion of Wednesday), he hid with the children from the perp(s). It was Lutner who turned himself in but, reading news articles and the Nancy Grace transcripts (unless I missed something), LE has not disclosed where it was that Lutner turned himself in (but I do not believe it was in Kootenai County) and LE has been very vague on releasing much info on Lutner's seven hour interrogation. I think Lutner knows more than LE is disclosing - perhaps to protect Lutner and the children.

I am thinking (IMO) the events that transpired on Sunday may have looked something like this: As the BBQ winded down, Robert Lutner (who was visiting the family on Sunday evening) may have taken all three children out for an ice cream (perhaps when Brenda and Michael had their Meth contact over) and, when Lutner returned, Slade ran ahead and walked in on Brenda and Michael tied-up and being interrogated by the perp(s). Slade may have yelled - but he was quickly subdued by the perp(s) but Lutner was warned something was up. Then Lutner got away with Shasta and Dylan, taking them to a safe place. When he turned himself in to LE, Lutner spilled his guts and told LE everything. He (Lutner) remains in LE custody on a probation violation warrant - more to keep him safe than to penalize him.

IMO, if the children are alive, the children (Shasta and Dylan) might be in LE's protective custody or a federal witness protection program.

IMO, there are so many questions and so little information released by LE in this case. I do hope Shasta and Dylan are alive and safe.

[CaliKid]

This is a scenario that makes sense because if I remember correctly, when Lutner reappeared LE downgraded the intensity of their search. Lately, all we've really heard from them is denials of possible sightings of the kids and a request that campers keep an eye out for the kids last weekend over Memorial Day- something that requires no involvement by LE, especially if they already know where the kids are.

I guess this is mostly wishful thinking on my part. I so want for Shasta and Dylan to be unharmed and not dead in some forest or dump.

[JerseyGirl]

The fact LE has kept Lutner locked up is telling me he is locked up for his own safety. If he is locked up for his safety, then I think Lutner took the children and, for over two days (Monday, Tuesday, and a portion of Wednesday), he hid with the children from the perp(s). It was Lutner who turned himself in but, reading news articles and the Nancy Grace transcripts (unless I missed something), LE has not disclosed where it was that Lutner turned himself in (but I do not believe it was in Kootenai County) and LE has been very vague on releasing much info on Lutner's seven hour interrogation. I think Lutner knows more than LE is disclosing - perhaps to protect Lutner and the children.

I am thinking (IMO) the events that transpired on Sunday may have looked something like this: As the BBQ winded down, Robert Lutner (who was visiting the family on Sunday evening) may have taken all three children out for an ice cream (perhaps when Brenda and Michael had their Meth contact over) and, when Lutner returned, Slade ran ahead and walked in on Brenda and Michael tied-up and being interrogated by the perp(s). Slade may have yelled - but he was quickly subdued by the perp(s) but Lutner was warned something was up. Then Lutner got away with Shasta and Dylan, taking them to a safe place. When he turned himself in to LE, Lutner spilled his guts and told LE everything. He (Lutner) remains in LE custody on a probation violation warrant - more to keep him safe than to penalize him.When I read this just now, it was almost like a lightbulb going off. It seems so entirely possible that Lutner could have been the one to take the kids out, (perhaps with someone else since Lutner's car was still at the house(?). I don't think that it happened the way you have it outlined only because of LE's assertion that the children were witnesses to what happened; LE sounds convinced. So perhaps something broke out while Lutner was in the house. Perhaps after it started raining or drizzling (thanks, Liz, for pointing out that it rained in the evening :) ), most of the guests went home, and those that remained moved the gathering inside. Somehow, while they were all "hanging out" inside, something happened - perhaps so quickly that Lutner and possibly someone else didn't see it coming, and once it started rushed the kids out. Maybe the one car door was open because they were going to take off in that car, and then realized that they didn't have the keys. Maybe the murderer(s) him/themselves even said, "Get those kids outta' here" after it began.

Lutner WAS indeed missing for some time afterwards. LE HAS been very secretive about where he was located. Your theory seems plausible, Wayne. I really, really hope that you've got something with this idea!

The main problem for me is that allegedly Lutner passed his polygraph while Steve did not. I know that results can be inaccurate but what are the chances that a guy that's telling a lie looks truthful, and a guy that's telling the truth looks like he's lying both in the same case. (Then again, we don't know for sure that Steve failed; maybe the FBI was just trying to pressure him by making him think that he failed; maybe that's why LE seems to have blown it off - they know that he really didn't fail.)

[JerseyGirl]

Lately, all we've really heard from them is denials of possible sightings of the kids and a request that campers keep an eye out for the kids last weekend over Memorial Day- something that requires no involvement by LE, especially if they already know where the kids are.Not even for the kids if I'm remembering correctly. Just for anything suspicious. And how long was this after calling off the Amber Alert? It would be so great if this all meant that the kids were safe! Although I realize that it's probably just wishful thinking.

[dannyodie]

I have spent time this evening reviewing news clips ...

I read at this link (http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/11816344.htm):

And I read at this link (http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=37064):

And last, I read at this link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/20/national/printable696720.shtml):


The fact LE has kept Lutner locked up is telling me he is locked up for his own safety. If he is locked up for his safety, then I think Lutner took the children and, for over two days (Monday, Tuesday, and a portion of Wednesday), he hid with the children from the perp(s). It was Lutner who turned himself in but, reading news articles and the Nancy Grace transcripts (unless I missed something), LE has not disclosed where it was that Lutner turned himself in (but I do not believe it was in Kootenai County) and LE has been very vague on releasing much info on Lutner's seven hour interrogation. I think Lutner knows more than LE is disclosing - perhaps to protect Lutner and the children.

I am thinking (IMO) the events that transpired on Sunday may have looked something like this: As the BBQ winded down, Robert Lutner (who was visiting the family on Sunday evening) may have taken all three children out for an ice cream (perhaps when Brenda and Michael had their Meth contact over) and, when Lutner returned, Slade ran ahead and walked in on Brenda and Michael tied-up and being interrogated by the perp(s). Slade may have yelled - but he was quickly subdued by the perp(s) but Lutner was warned something was up. Then Lutner got away with Shasta and Dylan, taking them to a safe place. When he turned himself in to LE, Lutner spilled his guts and told LE everything. He (Lutner) remains in LE custody on a probation violation warrant - more to keep him safe than to penalize him.

IMO, if the children are alive, the children (Shasta and Dylan) might be in LE's protective custody or a federal witness protection program.

IMO, there are so many questions and so little information released by LE in this case. I do hope Shasta and Dylan are alive and safe.
wayne; just wanted to tell you that you have a very pluasable idea going there. very good post.

[KatzHome]

...I am thinking (IMO) the events that transpired on Sunday may have looked something like this: As the BBQ winded down, Robert Lutner (who was visiting the family on Sunday evening) may have taken all three children out for an ice cream (perhaps when Brenda and Michael had their Meth contact over) and, when Lutner returned, Slade ran ahead and walked in on Brenda and Michael tied-up and being interrogated by the perp(s). Slade may have yelled - but he was quickly subdued by the perp(s) but Lutner was warned something was up. Then Lutner got away with Shasta and Dylan, taking them to a safe place. When he turned himself in to LE, Lutner spilled his guts and told LE everything. He (Lutner) remains in LE custody on a probation violation warrant - more to keep him safe than to penalize him.

IMO, if the children are alive, the children (Shasta and Dylan) might be in LE's protective custody or a federal witness protection program.

IMO, there are so many questions and so little information released by LE in this case. I do hope Shasta and Dylan are alive and safe.This makes a lot of sense, Wayne ~ and is about the most hopeful scenario... I have been so hoping that the children did not see the brutal slaying of their family... it's going to be rough enough having their lives upset by their death ~ but to have seen it ~ I really hope they didn't.

[Wayne]

This is a scenario that makes sense because if I remember correctly, when Lutner reappeared LE downgraded the intensity of their search. Lately, all we've really heard from them is denials of possible sightings of the kids and a request that campers keep an eye out for the kids last weekend over Memorial Day- something that requires no involvement by LE, especially if they already know where the kids are.

I guess this is mostly wishful thinking on my part. I so want for Shasta and Dylan to be unharmed and not dead in some forest or dump.
I agree that it appears to many of us that when Lutner reappeared LE downgraded the intensity of their search, despite LE saying they have not. He had about 2-1/2 days, maybe even longer. He could have covered a wide area.

I agree that this is mostly wishful thinking on my part. I too want for Shasta and Dylan to be unharmed and not dead in some forest or dump or in some lake, pond, river, or stream.

[Wayne]

Not even for the kids if I'm remembering correctly. Just for anything suspicious. And how long was this after calling off the Amber Alert? It would be so great if this all meant that the kids were safe! Although I realize that it's probably just wishful thinking.
I believe the nation wide Amber Alert was downgraded to a regional alert after six or seven days. And the dump site and ponds / streams were being searched for evidence, not bodies. (And LE made that distinction very clear.)

[Wayne]

When I read this just now, it was almost like a lightbulb going off. It seems so entirely possible that Lutner could have been the one to take the kids out, (perhaps with someone else since Lutner's car was still at the house(?). I don't think that it happened the way you have it outlined only because of LE's assertion that the children were witnesses to what happened; LE sounds convinced. So perhaps something broke out while Lutner was in the house. Perhaps after it started raining or drizzling (thanks, Liz, for pointing out that it rained in the evening :) ), most of the guests went home, and those that remained moved the gathering inside. Somehow, while they were all "hanging out" inside, something happened - perhaps so quickly that Lutner and possibly someone else didn't see it coming, and once it started rushed the kids out. Maybe the one car door was open because they were going to take off in that car, and then realized that they didn't have the keys. Maybe the murderer(s) him/themselves even said, "Get those kids outta' here" after it began.

Lutner WAS indeed missing for some time afterwards. LE HAS been very secretive about where he was located. Your theory seems plausible, Wayne. I really, really hope that you've got something with this idea!

The main problem for me is that allegedly Lutner passed his polygraph while Steve did not. I know that results can be inaccurate but what are the chances that a guy that's telling a lie looks truthful, and a guy that's telling the truth looks like he's lying both in the same case. (Then again, we don't know for sure that Steve failed; maybe the FBI was just trying to pressure him by making him think that he failed; maybe that's why LE seems to have blown it off - they know that he really didn't fail.)
Your scenario also makes sense. Yet, I think Slade walked-in on what was happening. I may be wrong.

You said The main problem for me is that allegedly Lutner passed his polygraph while Steve did not. Lutner is in jail ... with no access to the general public. Steve is not being held - and he has access to the general public. Steve may know the truth or not - and so LE puts him in a poor light with respect to credebility in the public's eye.

I can see LE wanting the general public to forget about Lutner - so LE says Lutner passed the polygraph, trying to put an end to his being a suspect in the public's eye, yet keeping him behind bars (perhaps in protective custody) on an unrelated probation warrant.

[JerseyGirl]

Your scenario also makes sense. Yet, I think Slade walked-in on what was happening. I may be wrong.Or perhaps they could only physically carry the two little ones, and Slade couldn't or wouldn't get out fast enough on his own. :(

You said The main problem for me is that allegedly Lutner passed his polygraph while Steve did not. Lutner is in jail ... with no access to the general public. Steve is not being held - and he has access to the general public. Steve may know the truth or not - and so LE puts him in a poor light with respect to credebility in the public's eye.

I can see LE wanting the general public to forget about Lutner - so LE says Lutner passed the polygraph, trying to put an end to his being a suspect in the public's eye, yet keeping him behind bars (perhaps in protective custody) on an unrelated probation warrant.Very good point. There could be a lot of hidden reasons of which we're just not aware yet.

[CaliKid]

With all my heart, I hope that Dylan and Shasta are unharmed, in no danger and being kept safe by somebody. Prayers for the recovery.

[Liz]

Aha! Found it! From 5/17/05:
Strange pick-up at barn (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?submitDate=200551783624)


Hollingsworth said he also had called the department to report a strange pickup parked at his barn. On Tuesday, detectives impounded the pickup and had it towed.


I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. ;)

[Wayne]

Aha! Found it! From 5/17/05:
Strange pick-up at barn (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?submitDate=200551783624)

I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. ;)
Very informative article. Thanks for posting it.

Both vehicles parked at the Brenda Groene's home had their doors open (IMO, the perp(s) were looking for something or someone). Plus the vehicle parked on the neighbor's property (who does it belong to?).

More pieces of the puzzle.

Does any one know if the family dog was running loose around the house or was it restrained with its leash?

Let me tell you why I ask ... IMO - If the dog was restrained with its leash, the perp(s) were the last in the home; if the dog was not restrained with its leash, someone who knew the family was the last in the home (possibly Shasta or Dylan or both).

[JerseyGirl]

Does any one know if the family dog was running loose around the house or was it restrained with its leash?Do they have a dog or dogs? From what I've read, the dogs were in the house, and heard barking when the neighbor went to the house. I don't remember much other than that but I thought I heard that the dog(s) were in a room in the house. Does anyone remember that or remember if they had been closed into one of the rooms?

[CaliKid]

All I've ever heard said was that the dogs were in the house. I wondered if they had been locked into a room, but nothing's been said one way or another.

[Wayne]

Do they have a dog or dogs? From what I've read, the dogs were in the house, and heard barking when the neighbor went to the house. I don't remember much other than that but I thought I heard that the dog(s) were in a room in the house. Does anyone remember that or remember if they had been closed into one of the rooms?
Thank you, JG.

I recall LE saying early on they had collected evidence from every room in the house. I also recall my wife and I hearing on our local news an LE officer saying (very early on) that blood was everywhere - in every room. But I have read / heard that the news media reported the neighbor heard the dog (or dogs) barking when he went to the home on Monday.

[JerseyGirl]

Thank you, JG.You're very welcome, Wayne. :)

[close_enough]

Aha! Found it! From 5/17/05:
Strange pick-up at barn (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp?submitDate=200551783624)





I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. ;)

ok, this answers my question i posted, on a different thread, about the "strange" vehicle...(i think).....so, the only vehicles on Brenda & Mark's property was theirs, & Hollingsworth said a strange vehicle was at his barn....

thanks...this clears it all up about all the vehicles....

[dannyodie]

steve got up early monday morning to go to work, I wonder if maybe he was late to work that day? the small clip below is a cut from the newspaper, saying police said the murders were between sunday evening and monday morning?


Sheriff's officials released no information about how the three victims were killed, nor could they pinpoint the time of death, except to say that it happened sometime between Sunday and Monday.

jmo, but lutner knows more than he is telling.....

[Wayne]

steve got up early monday morning to go to work, I wonder if maybe he was late to work that day? the small clip below is a cut from the newspaper, saying police said the murders were between sunday evening and monday morning?


Sheriff's officials released no information about how the three victims were killed, nor could they pinpoint the time of death, except to say that it happened sometime between Sunday and Monday.

jmo, but lutner knows more than he is telling.....
Is it Lutner knows more than he is telling OR is it LE is releasing only what they want released regarding Lutner? Before one answers, remember, Lutner is in LE's custody on a probation violation so we hear only what LE wants us to hear regarding Lutner.

[CaliKid]

What I want to know is if Lutner is really being held for breaking probation or is LE saying he's being held for that when the real reason is to keep him safe.

[close_enough]

steve got up early monday morning to go to work, I wonder if maybe he was late to work that day? the small clip below is a cut from the newspaper, saying police said the murders were between sunday evening and monday morning?


Sheriff's officials released no information about how the three victims were killed, nor could they pinpoint the time of death, except to say that it happened sometime between Sunday and Monday.

jmo, but lutner knows more than he is telling.....

the only thing i've read is that LE thinks the murders happened sometime betw 6-7 pm on Sunday, & 6-7 pm, Monday....they used a 24 hour period as the time frame....LE was called out around 6:15 pm on Monday evening...LE are the ones that stated a 24 hour period, going back from the time they were called/arrived on the scene.......

[close_enough]

What I want to know is if Lutner is really being held for breaking probation or is LE saying he's being held for that when the real reason is to keep him safe.

maybe a little bit of both???....i think they have him on probation violation, but as i've stated before, it might just be handy to have him in custody, also, so if they have further questions, they know where to find him....

[Wayne]

maybe a little bit of both???....i think they have him on probation violation, but as i've stated before, it might just be handy to have him in custody, also, so if they have further questions, they know where to find him....
IMO, for a perp to jump from fraud to murder is a huge jump. Not an impossible leap, just IMO, an improbable leap.

But if it turns out Lutner was involved, this means most likely the two children are dead or handed-off to someone else. If they were handed-off, they could be anywhere as Lutner had over 60-hours between the BBQ Sunday evening and the time he turned himself in on Wednesday afternoon.

LE seems so certain the two children were witnesses to the killings. IMO, maybe the two children went into shock and Lutner drove them far away (maybe Mexico border town or deep into Canada), gave them assumed IDs, and committed them to a hospital. With them being in shock, he reasoned they might not ever speak to identify the killers.

Although it is more likely the children are dead, I believe they are alive - somewhere. It might be wishful thinking at this point.

As far as I know, Lutner is behind bars - where LE can review and somewhat control what Lutner says to who and where Lutner will not be hounded by the media to say something that may compromise LE's investigation.

[JerseyGirl]

the only thing i've read is that LE thinks the murders happened sometime betw 6-7 pm on Sunday, & 6-7 pm, Monday....they used a 24 hour period as the time frame....LE was called out around 6:15 pm on Monday evening...LE are the ones that stated a 24 hour period, going back from the time they were called/arrived on the scene.......I would think that LE must have a much narrower window by now, wouldn't they?

[close_enough]

I would think that LE must have a much narrower window by now, wouldn't they?

well, you would think so...the medical examiner, surely, would have an approximate time of death :confused:

[close_enough]

IMO, for a perp to jump from fraud to murder is a huge jump. Not an impossible leap, just IMO, an improbable leap.

But if it turns out Lutner was involved, this means most likely the two children are dead or handed-off to someone else. If they were handed-off, they could be anywhere as Lutner had over 60-hours between the BBQ Sunday evening and the time he turned himself in on Wednesday afternoon.

LE seems so certain the two children were witnesses to the killings. IMO, maybe the two children went into shock and Lutner drove them far away (maybe Mexico border town or deep into Canada), gave them assumed IDs, and committed them to a hospital. With them being in shock, he reasoned they might not ever speak to identify the killers.

Although it is more likely the children are dead, I believe they are alive - somewhere. It might be wishful thinking at this point.

As far as I know, Lutner is behind bars - where LE can review and somewhat control what Lutner says to who and where Lutner will not be hounded by the media to say something that may compromise LE's investigation.

i don't think Lutner would go to all that trouble, plus it would be way too risky of getting caught, because of all the media attention, at the beginning....i've mentioned before, that i think Lutner is/was, most likely, into drugs/meth, himself...i don't see him as the "hero" type, caring about those children....

[Wayne]

i don't think Lutner would go to all that trouble, plus it would be way too risky of getting caught, because of all the media attention, at the beginning....i've mentioned before, that i think Lutner is/was, most likely, into drugs/meth, himself...i don't see him as the "hero" type, caring about those children....
You are likely right about Lutner not being the "hero" type. But based on what I have read thus far, I do not see Lutner as a killer either.

IMO, unless Lutner and someone else were in on this together - and the other party dropped the children on Lutner's lap to be disposed of. Although any thing is possible, based on what I have read and heard thus far, IMO, I do not see Lutner killing those children.

[close_enough]

You are likely right about Lutner not being the "hero" type. But based on what I have read thus far, I do not see Lutner as a killer either.

IMO, unless Lutner and someone else were in on this together - and the other party dropped the children on Lutner's lap to be disposed of. Although any thing is possible, based on what I have read and heard thus far, IMO, I do not see Lutner killing those children.

i agree...i don't think Lutner murdered those people...i don't think he abducted Shasta & Dylan either...i think he might have an idea of what happened, but i don't think he knows who did it, or had anything to do with it.....

[Wayne]

i agree...i don't think Lutner murdered those people...i don't think he abducted Shasta & Dylan either...i think he might have an idea of what happened, but i don't think he knows who did it, or had anything to do with it.....
Let me explain why I think he may be involved.

Sunday night, he's at the BBQ and supposedly among the last the leave. (He's the last person to see Brenda, Slade, and Mark alive.)

Monday, Lutner tells his probations officer (note or voice message) that he's leaving the area to go visit family. (Tries leaving an alibi? When was the call placed?)

Tuesday, LE issues a person of interest warrant on Lutner. (How did LE know he was there Sunday night? How did LE get his name so early?)

Wednesday afternoon, Lutner calls his probation officer and tells him he just heard he's a person of interest and he later that afternoon turns himself in. LE keeps Lutner locked up behind bars on a probation violation unrelated to the case. (He just then finds out he's a POI? IMO, he was out of the area - perhaps far out.)

Could be a series of coincidences or something more revealing. That is about 60-hours (Sunday evening to Wednesday afternoon) that Lutner could have done something. I do not think he's a killer but I do think Lutner is involved. 60-hours is enough time to drive from Idaho to many places. One place IMO makes sense - a Mexican border town and then back to Idaho, (Maybe not even cross over the border but to meet a person to turn over the children to - pay-off a debt that Brenda / Mark had with the dealer perhaps). IMO, the Mexico scenario makes sense on the basis of drugs and the interrogation & execution styles of Brenda, Slade, and Mark. And LE seems so certain Dylan and Shasta were present and witnessed these brutal murders.

Anything is possible... LE could even have the children in protective custody and that is why LE stopped giving Steve Groene updates and why LE has Lutner locked up on a probation violation ... and why LE stopped the searches so early on in this investigation. Or LE knows exactly where the children are located and can not act - without placing them in harms way. Or the children could be dead.

My heart goes out to these two children. I do hope they are found unharmed.

[Gracelin]

Anything is possible... LE could even have the children in protective custody and that is why LE stopped giving Steve Groene updates and why LE has Lutner locked up on a probation violation ... and why LE stopped the searches so early on in this investigation. Or without placing them in harms way. Or the children could be dead.

My heart goes out to these two children. I do hope they are found unharmed.

__________________
I think LE thinks they know that Steve knows where the children are, but are waiting Steve out, sooner or later he will need to make contact with who ever has them..

Sooner or later someone will slip up, and all will become clear..

Like you Wayne I pray that we are right and the children are alive and well..

[close_enough]

Let me explain why I think he may be involved.

Sunday night, he's at the BBQ and supposedly among the last the leave. (He's the last person to see Brenda, Slade, and Mark alive.)

Monday, Lutner tells his probations officer (note or voice message) that he's leaving the area to go visit family. (Tries leaving an alibi? When was the call placed?)

Tuesday, LE issues a person of interest warrant on Lutner. (How did LE know he was there Sunday night? How did LE get his name so early?)

Wednesday afternoon, Lutner calls his probation officer and tells him he just heard he's a person of interest and he later that afternoon turns himself in. LE keeps Lutner locked up behind bars on a probation violation unrelated to the case. (He just then finds out he's a POI? IMO, he was out of the area - perhaps far out.)

Could be a series of coincidences or something more revealing. That is about 60-hours (Sunday evening to Wednesday afternoon) that Lutner could have done something. I do not think he's a killer but I do think Lutner is involved. 60-hours is enough time to drive from Idaho to many places. One place IMO makes sense - a Mexican border town and then back to Idaho, (Maybe not even cross over the border but to meet a person to turn over the children to - pay-off a debt that Brenda / Mark had with the dealer perhaps). IMO, the Mexico scenario makes sense on the basis of drugs and the interrogation & execution styles of Brenda, Slade, and Mark. And LE seems so certain Dylan and Shasta were present and witnessed these brutal murders.

Anything is possible... LE could even have the children in protective custody and that is why LE stopped giving Steve Groene updates and why LE has Lutner locked up on a probation violation ... and why LE stopped the searches so early on in this investigation. Or LE knows exactly where the children are located and can not act - without placing them in harms way. Or the children could be dead.

My heart goes out to these two children. I do hope they are found unharmed.

well...i see what you're saying, but the only reason i don't think it's the case, is LE interrogated Lutner for 7 hours, along w/a polygraph....i really believe if LE knew where these children are, we would know about it....i don't see Steve knowing either....i've come to the conclusion that LE really doesn't have a clue...no solid leads.....i saw a show with Dayle Hinman (sp)...i think that's her name...anyway, she's a criminal profiler....she said the other night, & has said it before....murders are "just what they appear to be", as a rule...i would love to hear what she thinks about this....i believe she's in Florida, & has a show on TV..can't even think of the name of it now....

i still believe this is all about drugs, dealing/stealing, whatever, but it's drug related....Shasta & Dylan being taken, still has me stumped, somewhat though, but i believe they're dead...i just don't see Steve, or any parent, keeping quiet, if they really know where their kids are....personally, i would think that's against the law...LE searching for them, when someone like the father, knows where they are??...no, i just don't see it that way.....Steve appears to be a pretty tough guy...if he knew where his children are, he'd tell LE, & have them w/him, by now....i could be wrong...i am a lot of the time....

[Wayne]

i still believe this is all about drugs, dealing/stealing, whatever, but it's drug related....Shasta & Dylan being taken, still has me stumped, somewhat though, but i believe they're dead...i just don't see Steve, or any parent, keeping quiet, if they really know where their kids are....personally, i would think that's against the law...LE searching for them, when someone like the father, knows where they are??...no, i just don't see it that way.....Steve appears to be a pretty tough guy...if he knew where his children are, he'd tell LE, & have them w/him, by now....i could be wrong...i am a lot of the time....An article I came across describing Lutner:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/20...news/news01.prt
Earlier Wednesday, authorities said Lutner, who has been on probation for unemployment insurance fraud since December 2003, told his supervising officer in Coeur d'Alene he was "too distraught" to talk with authorities. He planned to drive to Emmett, near Boise, to visit his father, who had suffered a stroke recently. ... Teresa Jones, Department of Correction spokeswoman. "He has made contact with a probation officer today (Wednesday) and has been put in touch with law enforcement." Lutner, a former neighbor characterized as a friend of the Groene family, has a criminal history ranging from petty theft to driving offenses to drug charges.

The bottom line - I do tend to think this may be drug-related. It is one common element in this tragedy.

But assuming Lutner is not involved ... perhaps Brenda was carrying or storing crystal meth for her supplier. That perhaps Brenda was careless and the two young children found a bag or two of shinny stones (like they studdied in the 2nd / 3rd grades in school) and, in their innocent world, they took them to their hide-out cave in the hills behind their home, away from the grown-ups and older brothers who would have stopped them. Opened the bag(s) there and while playing with the stones - and for some reason, they discarded the stones. Brenda found out about the missing bag(s) and tried arranging either payment to cover the loss or replacement crystal meth to replace the loss. (Perhaps that gave Vance the false impression she was increasing her meth use? Maybe she was buying from a different supplier and that irritated their regular supplier? Or she was actually increasing her meth use knowing what was going to happen to her and her family?) I sense Sunday May 15th was the payment-due date. She arranged a BBQ in part to delay collection as the supplier would not bring-in the heavy guns with witnesses around. After everyone left the knock on her door came and the perp(s) came in. They wanted the drugs returned or the money with interest. She had some money but not enough. When the perp(s) were interrogating the three, a child blurted out a statement about the foul smell or awful taste or how shinny the rocks in the bag were or let out a gasp seeing the rocks they had played with in their hide-out - and that lead the perp(s) to kill the three and then have the children lead the perp(s) to their hide-out cave to verify that loss. My guess at this point the perp(s) killed Brenda, Mark, and Slade while one perp watched the children before leaving the home. The children may have been taken to explain what happened to the crystal meth to the supplier's boss so the supplier would not he held accountable for the loss (and after explaining what happened, they'd be disposed of by the perp(s)) OR when the children were forced to lead the perp(s) to the hide-out cave, the perp(s) killed them and their decomposed bodies will be found in or near their hide-out cave. IMO, LE just has not searched the area as thoroughly as they are leading the public to believe.

Although my thoughts at this point is the children are likely dead, another possibility does come to my mind - the children at some point while leading the perp(s) to their hide-out cave escaped and hid in the hills - and the two made their way to someone's home by Tuesday or Wednesday. They told the adult what had transpired. The children were then taken somewhere they'd be safe - perhaps in LE's protective custody.

The children had nothing to do with this statement Steve Groene made could have been a plea - that the children were not drug users and should not be pursued by the perp(s). Like a hands-off statement to the perp(s), not a plea as it appeared but an order.

According to one teacher, they did get into trouble at school and looked out for each other. I think they were two kids who liked doing things they should not - testing the limits imposed by parents and older siblings. Thus one reason of many why I think it is possible the two children took the bag (or bags) of crystal-like stones - to play with the shinny stones in their hide-out away from adults.

Just my two cents...

And anything is possible.

[Lili]

A thought last night...Brenda, Mark and possibly Slade would have tried to defend themselves and the children. When the autopsies were performed, I would think that parings from under their nails would be taken for DNA purposes. It might all come down to that to find the killer(s).

[dannyodie]

An article I came across describing Lutner:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/20...news/news01.prt
Earlier Wednesday, authorities said Lutner, who has been on probation for unemployment insurance fraud since December 2003, told his supervising officer in Coeur d'Alene he was "too distraught" to talk with authorities. He planned to drive to Emmett, near Boise, to visit his father, who had suffered a stroke recently. ... Teresa Jones, Department of Correction spokeswoman. "He has made contact with a probation officer today (Wednesday) and has been put in touch with law enforcement." Lutner, a former neighbor characterized as a friend of the Groene family, has a criminal history ranging from petty theft to driving offenses to drug charges.

The bottom line - I do tend to think this may be drug-related. It is one common element in this tragedy.

But assuming Lutner is not involved ... perhaps Brenda was carrying or storing crystal meth for her supplier. That perhaps Brenda was careless and the two young children found a bag or two of shinny stones (like they studdied in the 2nd / 3rd grades in school) and, in their innocent world, they took them to their hide-out cave in the hills behind their home, away from the grown-ups and older brothers who would have stopped them. Opened the bag(s) there and while playing with the stones - and for some reason, they discarded the stones. Brenda found out about the missing bag(s) and tried arranging either payment to cover the loss or replacement crystal meth to replace the loss. (Perhaps that gave Vance the false impression she was increasing her meth use? Maybe she was buying from a different supplier and that irritated their regular supplier? Or she was actually increasing her meth use knowing what was going to happen to her and her family?) I sense Sunday May 15th was the payment-due date. She arranged a BBQ in part to delay collection as the supplier would not bring-in the heavy guns with witnesses around. After everyone left the knock on her door came and the perp(s) came in. They wanted the drugs returned or the money with interest. She had some money but not enough. When the perp(s) were interrogating the three, a child blurted out a statement about the foul smell or awful taste or how shinny the rocks in the bag were or let out a gasp seeing the rocks they had played with in their hide-out - and that lead the perp(s) to kill the three and then have the children lead the perp(s) to their hide-out cave to verify that loss. My guess at this point the perp(s) killed Brenda, Mark, and Slade while one perp watched the children before leaving the home. The children may have been taken to explain what happened to the crystal meth to the supplier's boss so the supplier would not he held accountable for the loss (and after explaining what happened, they'd be disposed of by the perp(s)) OR when the children were forced to lead the perp(s) to the hide-out cave, the perp(s) killed them and their decomposed bodies will be found in or near their hide-out cave. IMO, LE just has not searched the area as thoroughly as they are leading the public to believe.

Although my thoughts at this point is the children are likely dead, another possibility does come to my mind - the children at some point while leading the perp(s) to their hide-out cave escaped and hid in the hills - and the two made their way to someone's home by Tuesday or Wednesday. They told the adult what had transpired. The children were then taken somewhere they'd be safe - perhaps in LE's protective custody.

The children had nothing to do with this statement Steve Groene made could have been a plea - that the children were not drug users and should not be pursued by the perp(s). Like a hands-off statement to the perp(s), not a plea as it appeared but an order.

According to one teacher, they did get into trouble at school and looked out for each other. I think they were two kids who liked doing things they should not - testing the limits imposed by parents and older siblings. Thus one reason of many why I think it is possible the two children took the bag (or bags) of crystal-like stones - to play with the shinny stones in their hide-out away from adults.

Just my two cents...

And anything is possible.
wayne, that is a very good post, I do feel very much like what you have described as being very possible, does anyone know for sure the location of there so called hide out? it would be interesting if le would search more intensively. if not them then a private search and rescue group should be assembled, to bad this is not real close to where I live, I would be glad to put a search team together. either the laura recovery center or the shawn hornbeck foundation in missouri, they have certified " proven " dogs, these groups would also ask for public assistance in those search efforts. I don't think there would be much le could do to stop citizens from forming a search group. the laura recovery center has a manual that teaches search and rescue, I have read it twice, and with some determined people it could be assembled. the manual I speak of can be downloaded and or printed right off of there website, if printed it will be 85 or so pages so have plenty of black ink ready but it is worth every drop, it is very detailed and easy to understand. I sure hope that someone there will put a search group together to help find these children. if anyone does, best of luck to all of them.

[Wayne]

wayne, that is a very good post, I do feel very much like what you have described as being very possible, does anyone know for sure the location of there so called hide out? it would be interesting if le would search more intensively. if not them then a private search and rescue group should be assembled, to bad this is not real close to where I live, I would be glad to put a search team together. either the laura recovery center or the shawn hornbeck foundation in missouri, they have certified " proven " dogs, these groups would also ask for public assistance in those search efforts. I don't think there would be much le could do to stop citizens from forming a search group. the laura recovery center has a manual that teaches search and rescue, I have read it twice, and with some determined people it could be assembled. the manual I speak of can be downloaded and or printed right off of there website, if printed it will be 85 or so pages so have plenty of black ink ready but it is worth every drop, it is very detailed and easy to understand. I sure hope that someone there will put a search group together to help find these children. if anyone does, best of luck to all of them.This is from the CDA Press on May 19th:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/19/news/news03.prt
Bob Price of Seattle, whose wife is the aunt of Dylan Groene, 9, and Shasta Groene, 8, said he thinks they will be found.
(snip)
Regardless of the cause, Price said he believes the children could still be hiding in the area.
"There's a lot of nooks and crannies out there," he said. "They are very familiar with the territory because they lived there all their lives."I also have this from Nancy Grace show on May 19th:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/19/ng.01.html
GRACE: Back to Alina Cho.

Alina, you said that divers are now searching local ponds. Now, what has led police to local ponds, if anything?

CHO: Well, to be honest, they have been fanning out over the area into the wooded area. As you might be able to see behind me, some 400 acres. They`ve searched what they`re calling little tree forts, places where they believe that the children might be hiding. But to no avail. And so today they expanded that search and they decided to bring in the divers and, unfortunately, no luck so far. Captain Wolfinger has said they are searching for evidence and, as he says, God forbid, the bodies of the children.

GRACE: Well, my question to you, Captain, is, you`ve brought in cadaver dogs, correct? Has anything led you to these local ponds or did you just do that as a precaution?

WOLFINGER: Nancy, we just did that as a precaution. This area is crisscrossed with small streams, creeks and these little ponds. And they`re all around the area around the home itself within that 40 acre search area. We couldn`t do them adequately without bringing divers in. LE searched 40-acres with the cadaver dogs and 400-acres with searchers. The searches appear to have ended May 22nd.

The nooks and crannies Bob Price mentioned I take for being caves in the rough terain around the home. IMO, a cave could have a tiny concealed entrance that opens to a larger area inside - that two 60-pound children could fit. Yet, LE never reported finding any cave ... but they did report finding little tree forts. And IMO just because LE did not report finding a cave does not mean that they did not find one; LE could have supressed releasing the information for the children's safety.

Edited to add: I too hope a private group organizes a search effort. The community seems close-knit and, IMO, may be receptive to more organized searches. But IMO, LE could say NO because the group could be interferring with an ongoing investigation.

[close_enough]

A thought last night...Brenda, Mark and possibly Slade would have tried to defend themselves and the children. When the autopsies were performed, I would think that parings from under their nails would be taken for DNA purposes. It might all come down to that to find the killer(s).

do we know if all the testing has been done, & returned/verified already??...heck, i guess we don't..they're being so tight lipped about it all... :confused:

if Steve & Vance had anything to do w/this, surely LE would go pick them up, if their DNA was underneath anyone's fingernails, right????

[Wayne]

do we know if all the testing has been done, & returned/verified already??...heck, i guess we don't..they're being so tight lipped about it all... :confused:

if Steve & Vance had anything to do w/this, surely LE would go pick them up, if their DNA was underneath anyone's fingernails, right????
I recall murderer David Westerfield was free for slightly over two weeks (until Danielle Van Dam's blood, through DNA testing, was discovered in DW's RV and on his jacket) before charges were brought against him. And I recall murderer Scott Peterson was free for 100-days or so (until after his wife's body was recovered) before charges were brought against him. And I recall Michael Blagg was free for seven months or so (until after his wife's body was recovered) before charges were brought against him.

If LE is going to file charges, IMO - LE wants to be 100% certain of the case and of the children's plight / safety. If the children's bodies show up, IMO, LE will bring in people who they have identified as possibly being involved for another round of interviews and then charges would likely be filed. But as long as the children are missing, IMO, LE will be hessitant to bring charges against anyone unless they have conclusive evidence to support the charges. And at this point in time, it appears LE does not have the conclusive evidence to charge Steve Groene or his son Vance - or anyone for that matter.

[Liz]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's a good chance with the weather being as cold as it was, that the perpetrator's body was entirely covered. Especially if the perp(s) was/were wearing gloves.

Of course, there's always the chance that LE might recover the clothing the perp(s) was/were wearing. Fat chance of that though, imo.

Then there was the comment made by the Sheriff in which he said something about matching dna to a database. Then he said, 'it just doesn't exist'.

I took that to mean there is not any DNA evidence.
:(

[close_enough]

I recall murderer David Westerfield was free for slightly over two weeks (until Danielle Van Dam's blood, through DNA testing, was discovered in DW's RV and on his jacket) before charges were brought against him. And I recall murderer Scott Peterson was free for 100-days or so (until after his wife's body was recovered) before charges were brought against him. And I recall Michael Blagg was free for seven months or so (until after his wife's body was recovered) before charges were brought against him.

If LE is going to file charges, IMO - LE wants to be 100% certain of the case and of the children's plight / safety. If the children's bodies show up, IMO, LE will bring in people who they have identified as possibly being involved for another round of interviews and then charges would likely be filed. But as long as the children are missing, IMO, LE will be hessitant to bring charges against anyone unless they have conclusive evidence to support the charges. And at this point in time, it appears LE does not have the conclusive evidence to charge Steve Groene or his son Vance - or anyone for that matter.

yeah, you're right....they don't have anything conclusive, or something would be happening...

[Lili]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's a good chance with the weather being as cold as it was, that the perpetrator's body was entirely covered. Especially if the perp(s) was/were wearing gloves.

Of course, there's always the chance that LE might recover the clothing the perp(s) was/were wearing. Fat chance of that though, imo.

Then there was the comment made by the Sheriff in which he said something about matching dna to a database. Then he said, 'it just doesn't exist'.

I took that to mean there is not any DNA evidence.
:(
I am thinking that remark was about a fingerprint database, because there were no other fingerprints identified there (in Idaho) other than the victims. But further tests would be completed in Va.

I guess I am off to look...:waitasec:

[Lili]

"Some fingerprints analyzed from the family's home turned out to belong only to the occupants, Wolfinger said.

Blood, fingerprints and other evidence from the murder scene were being processed at the FBI's forensic laboratory in Quantico, Va. Initial results from the lab showed that Shasta and Dylan's blood was not at the scene, giving investigators hope that they could still be alive."
http://keyetv.com/topstories/topstories_story_153001920.html

"Wolfinger also said some fingerprint evidence has returned, but so far only those of who lived in the house have been identified."
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/news05.txt

Well, regardless, I just hope someone got a swipe at whoever did this awful crime.

[Rle7]

yeah, you're right....they don't have anything conclusive, or something would be happening...
So far, Watson said some 700 interviews have been completed in the case, with another 400 people on the list left to go.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/16/news/news03.txt

They haven't interviewed and eliminated everybody in the case as of June 16th. That is probably why no arrests have been made yet.

[scifier]

This is from the CDA Press on May 19th:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/19/news/news03.prt
I also have this from Nancy Grace show on May 19th:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/19/ng.01.html
LE searched 40-acres with the cadaver dogs and 400-acres with searchers. The searches appear to have ended May 22nd.

The nooks and crannies Bob Price mentioned I take for being caves in the rough terain around the home. IMO, a cave could have a tiny concealed entrance that opens to a larger area inside - that two 60-pound children could fit. Yet, LE never reported finding any cave ... but they did report finding little tree forts. And IMO just because LE did not report finding a cave does not mean that they did not find one; LE could have supressed releasing the information for the children's safety.

Edited to add: I too hope a private group organizes a search effort. The community seems close-knit and, IMO, may be receptive to more organized searches. But IMO, LE could say NO because the group could be interferring with an ongoing investigation.
The area in question does not really have any caves nor old mines that would not have been considered in around the house. I live close by and these things just simply do not exist there. Tree forts (if you can call them that) are just a board or two wedged in a nook of a tree. It is possible taht they could have taken off into the woods and then eventually gotten lost and now after so much time it is highly unlikely that they are even alive if that theory is true. I do not buy into the theory that you would kill the mother, boyfriend etc if they took the shiny little stones. You would use the Mother to extract the info from the kids as to where they were. Taking the kids to the dealer as proof they didnt screw up is absurd at best. The dealer doesnt care who screwed up, they only care about where they are going to get their money or drugs from. From any standpoint one can say that anything is possible, but lets look at what is plausible and move from there. The totla lack of information is distorting the information and logic that we do have. Please write the Spokesman Review, CDA Press, all of the local TV and Radio channels, Kootenai County Sheriff, etc and demand to know what is going on with this investigation. I already have and have received no info back as yet. The more that do this may get their attention. IMO these murders are revenge or leverage, or a family member gone ballistic. It is the only thing that explains the children being taken.

[Lili]

The area in question does not really have any caves nor old mines that would not have been considered in around the house. I live close by and these things just simply do not exist there. Tree forts (if you can call them that) are just a board or two wedged in a nook of a tree. It is possible taht they could have taken off into the woods and then eventually gotten lost and now after so much time it is highly unlikely that they are even alive if that theory is true. I do not buy into the theory that you would kill the mother, boyfriend etc if they took the shiny little stones. You would use the Mother to extract the info from the kids as to where they were. Taking the kids to the dealer as proof they didnt screw up is absurd at best. The dealer doesnt care who screwed up, they only care about where they are going to get their money or drugs from. From any standpoint one can say that anything is possible, but lets look at what is plausible and move from there. The totla lack of information is distorting the information and logic that we do have. Please write the Spokesman Review, CDA Press, all of the local TV and Radio channels, Kootenai County Sheriff, etc and demand to know what is going on with this investigation. I already have and have received no info back as yet. The more that do this may get their attention. IMO these murders are revenge or leverage, or a family member gone ballistic. It is the only thing that explains the children being taken.
Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated here. I am afraid with the FBI involved we will probably hear very little.
Since you are local, may I ask, have you any further information on the beating of the man at Post Falls? http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24086

I had read in an article, but apparently didn't save it, that he either had given the female the wrong PIN number, or she wrote it down wrong and couldn't withdraw any cash from his account at the ATM. Then when she returned he was beaten into unconsciousness with a ballbat. (Presumably left for dead.)
I also read that police were looking for a Mossberg shotgun, possibly used in the incident.

[scifier]

Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated here. I am afraid with the FBI involved we will probably hear very little.
Since you are local, may I ask, have you any further information on the beating of the man at Post Falls? http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24086

I had read in an article, but apparently didn't save it, that he either had given the female the wrong PIN number, or she wrote it down wrong and couldn't withdraw any cash from his account at the ATM. Then when she returned he was beaten into unconsciousness with a ballbat. (Presumably left for dead.)
I also read that police were looking for a Mossberg shotgun, possibly used in the incident.
That case and news of has been non-existent also, (makes you wonder) not even a statement that the 2 cases are unrelated. Another thing that bothers me is that LE states of no other DNA at all other than the occupants? With all of the other people in and out of the house doesn't seem logical. There would most likely be fingerprints and DNA of others even if for innocent reasons (other family members visiting, friends, etc) Why would LE say that DNA is non-existent?
I dont know about you, but are the FBI and Local LE a bunch of keystone cops or what? Do they honestly think the public is that stupid as well as the perps? Cmon, the only person who are going to blow this case open is the public, and we simply do not have the necessary info on where or what to look out for. Just MO.

[Lili]

I just read the most recently posted article in the media thread.
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/23/news/news05.txt

Maybe I missed it somewhere...but did anyone else ever hear or read about there being blood on the steps?

"But it was Hollingsworth who first led the police to that house in his line of sight, after he'd gone down to pay 13-year-old Slade Groene for mowing his lawn. In his call to 911, Hollingsworth reported blood on the door and the steps."

That makes me think that is may have started outside the house and lead to the inside. Maybe that's why there was no sign of forced entry. Someone came and maybe Mark met them outside and the confrontation started there.

[Rle7]

I just read the most recently posted article in the media thread.
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/23/news/news05.txt

Maybe I missed it somewhere...but did anyone else ever hear or read about there being blood on the steps?

"But it was Hollingsworth who first led the police to that house in his line of sight, after he'd gone down to pay 13-year-old Slade Groene for mowing his lawn. In his call to 911, Hollingsworth reported blood on the door and the steps."

That makes me think that is may have started outside the house and lead to the inside. Maybe that's why there was no sign of forced entry. Someone came and maybe Mark met them outside and the confrontation started there.
That's the first I've heard of the blood on the steps. My first thought was that the killer(s) tracked the blood out as they were leaving the house. That also might explain how LE knows the kids witnessed the murders, as their bloody shoeprints would be left behind.

[Liz]

Excellent find, Lili! I don't recall ever reading that. If I did, I didn't catch what you did!

Kudos! :)

[honey]

This is my first post after reading for several days all of your interesting posts on this case. I thought of a new "possible motive" after reading an article a few days ago regarding the Angela Johnson murder trial in Sioux City, Iowa. Angela Johnson aided her boyfriend drug kingpin, Dustin Honken, in killing five people who were former drug dealers turned federal informants. The style of the murders were different in that they were shot - but close-up photos in her trial showed that rope was tied around the ankles and wrists of two victims and that there was evidence of trauma to the head...they had been bound with "clothesline-like rope at their wrists and ankles. Their mouths and jaws were covered with duct tape. In the Groene case, perhaps Brenda was an informant, or who else? It might explain why we aren't getting much information...

[Liz]

Hi honey! I think the motive you suggested has just as good a possibility of being 'the motive' as many others that have been suggested.


Welcome aboard! :) Looking forward to more of your posts!

[Lili]

Welcome aboard Honey. Excellent first post. All thoughts and ideas are welcome!

[Liz]

This is a Psychological Profile and Forensic Analysis of another triple homicide, which occured in West Memphis, Arkansas.

http://emmaf.isuisse.com/base/compl_prof.html

I was not familiar with the case, and I still am not really familiar with it. I just thought some of the insight given may be of interest and helpful in the way we look at and attempt to analyze the Groene/McKenzie murders.

I found the profile of the (alleged) murderer(s) to be particularly interesting.

I am going to have to try to find out just how close the actual murderer(s) came to fitting the profile. I guess that will depend on IF that case was ever solved and the murderer(s) proven guilty.

I did note that the father of one of the victim's was alleged to have been an informant, which reminded me of honey's post. I wonder if somehow "an informant" might come into play somehow in the Idaho murder case and the missing children.

The article should give us a bit more to think about and hopefully discuss.

Maybe a moderator can give me an opinion about this being on this thread. I really wasn't quite sure where to post it and hated to start another thread.
So, I picked this thread. :p

[Wayne]

I did note that the father of one of the victim's was alleged to have been an informant, which reminded me of honey's post. I wonder if somehow "an informant" might come into play somehow in the Idaho murder case and the missing children.
IMO, it is possible Brenda or Mark may have been an informant.

That idea leads me to ask these questions - Maybe Slade turned in his mother to school officials for her increased meth use? Schools are quizing students and maybe Slade, like Vance, had had enough of meth and drugs in the home? Also, someone posted about Children Services having been to the Groene residence - maybe Slade mentioned something at school and school officials asked questions and filed a report with Children Services - and the perps got wind of the report. Just another approach to looking the informant-angle.

[Wayne]

I just read the most recently posted article in the media thread.
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/23/news/news05.txt

Maybe I missed it somewhere...but did anyone else ever hear or read about there being blood on the steps?

"But it was Hollingsworth who first led the police to that house in his line of sight, after he'd gone down to pay 13-year-old Slade Groene for mowing his lawn. In his call to 911, Hollingsworth reported blood on the door and the steps."

That makes me think that is may have started outside the house and lead to the inside. Maybe that's why there was no sign of forced entry. Someone came and maybe Mark met them outside and the confrontation started there.
Good find...

As I recall the vehicle doors were open and blood was on the door ... now blood outside on the steps ...

One thought here... I believe LE had said none of the blood found INSIDE the home belonged to Shasta and Dylan. Now I'm wondering who the blood outside the home belonged to? If it was blood drops (or blood spatter) outside, this could have begun outside and moved inside. Or was the blood tracked from inside the home to outside on footprints?

Is it possible the perps did the killing and then stumbled onto the children? Was any of the children's clothes missing? Shoes? Slippers? Or were the children taken barefoot?

[Rle7]

IMO, it is possible Brenda or Mark may have been an informant.

That idea leads me to ask these questions - Maybe Slade turned in his mother to school officials for her increased meth use? Schools are quizing students and maybe Slade, like Vance, had had enough of meth and drugs in the home? Also, someone posted about Children Services having been to the Groene residence - maybe Slade mentioned something at school and school officials asked questions and filed a report with Children Services - and the perps got wind of the report. Just another approach to looking the informant-angle.
Just another thought...

Even if noone in the family was an informant... maybe someone strung out on meth for days on end, without any food or sleep, and increasing paranoia, THOUGHT someone in the family was a snitch. In this scenario, in their drug-induced state of mind, someone could have thought Jesse was snitching to get out of his felony burglary charges. Or even Steve, who disapproved of the meth use, the perp may have thought he was snitching also to get custody of the children. Either way, the perp(s) decided to kill certain family members as a warning and took hostages to keep the supposed snitches quiet. They also took all the drugs, as they knew the family and knew where the drugs were stashed. That's why there were no drugs found at the scene, even though Brenda and Mark were users. Of course this scenario doesn't look good for the kids once the perp(s) do crash and get some sleep, then come to their senses. But this is a plausible theory...

[RockyMountains]

Ok Mark tripped on crystal tied up Brenda and Slade and beat them to death. remember the two were beaten more severly than Mark. Steve showed up at the house and saw the caos and then himself beat Mark to Death. Thinking that LE would never believe the events he then tied up Mark and took the kids to someone for safe keeping.

[Liz]

Hi and welcome, RockyMountains!

Good first post! Not something I had ever thought of, but entirely possible!

[Wayne]

Ok Mark tripped on crystal tied up Brenda and Slade and beat them to death. remember the two were beaten more severly than Mark. Steve showed up at the house and saw the caos and then himself beat Mark to Death. Thinking that LE would never believe the events he then tied up Mark and took the kids to someone for safe keeping.
Welcome to Websleuths, RockyMountains.

Interesting thought.

Where did the zip ties used to bind all three victims come from since there were none found in the house? Did Mark keep a bag of these ties elsewhere or did Steve take the zip ties with him when he left? (He could have but I tend to think not.)

In this case, anything seems possible.

[dragonfly]

I have spent the last couple days thinking about a couple of messages posted by two fellow websleuths.

First is #100 posted on the tread Shasta & Dylan cont. 6/17 by a new poster, North Idaho native. This gives possible new insight into the possibility of abuse at the household and the insight into personality of Slade Groene.

Second is #96 posted on the thread Crime Scene, Motive. It was posted by Liz and the link she directed us to was
http://emmaf.isuisse.com/base/compl_prof.html the subject was Psychological Profile and Forensic Analayis
The link is actually regarding another case, while there were times I found it difficult to read due to the subjects discussed it was truly enlightening... please take the time to read this!

I could not help but start to think that maybe another scenerio that has not been discussed (to my knowledge) is that possibly Slade was caught molesting Shasta, maybe witnessed by Vance.
The degree of beating on Slade plus the sexual mutilation (both not totally verified but rumored) would suggest something similiar to what happened in the case Liz has posted in #96.

I could see Steve and Vance equiped with this information along with the thinking that Brenda and Mark are no longer in control of what is happening in the house due to increasing drug use deciding to step in and put an end to the "problem" as always IMO.

[Gracelin]

[QUOTE=dragonfly]
I could not help but start to think that maybe another scenerio that has not been discussed (to my knowledge) is that possibly Slade was caught molesting Shasta, maybe witnessed by Vance.
The degree of beating on Slade plus the sexual mutilation (both not totally verified but rumored) would suggest something similiar to what happened in the case Liz has posted in #96.




My thoughts were focused on the campground as a neighborhood hang out for the local kids and when the family had company that's where the kids would run off to play.I Figured they may have a game room with pinball and the like..

But also off season it would be deserted and they would have the run of the place..

So all the kids may hang around there on weekends or off school days, they range in different ages. because I doubt there are many of them. It is fairly rural.

But what if Slade did try something with another child as well as his sister and brother..And a parent found out, It could be that another friend had their children there and abuse took place and they found out and lost it..


The rage is the thing that stands out most in this case..
Someone was mad beyond words..

[close_enough]

This is a Psychological Profile and Forensic Analysis of another triple homicide, which occured in West Memphis, Arkansas.

http://emmaf.isuisse.com/base/compl_prof.html

I was not familiar with the case, and I still am not really familiar with it. I just thought some of the insight given may be of interest and helpful in the way we look at and attempt to analyze the Groene/McKenzie murders.

I found the profile of the (alleged) murderer(s) to be particularly interesting.

I am going to have to try to find out just how close the actual murderer(s) came to fitting the profile. I guess that will depend on IF that case was ever solved and the murderer(s) proven guilty.

I did note that the father of one of the victim's was alleged to have been an informant, which reminded me of honey's post. I wonder if somehow "an informant" might come into play somehow in the Idaho murder case and the missing children.

The article should give us a bit more to think about and hopefully discuss.

Maybe a moderator can give me an opinion about this being on this thread. I really wasn't quite sure where to post it and hated to start another thread.
So, I picked this thread. :p

i remember when this happened in West Memphis...such a horrible crime....very interesting reading...thanks for posting this, Liz.....read up on it, further, & i've come to the conclusion that the step-father might have had something to do with this...apparently, a lot of people believe that the 3 in jail, are innocent...

this kind of profiling is very interesting...the profile fit the stepfather, more than it did the 3 they arrested, imo....

[Usher737]

Wow ! This case is so confusing and fascinating! I have some thoughts and questions.


I think the killers went to that home to intentionally harm them. They had this planned and brought to the house the zip ties, murder weapon, etc...

The biggest question I have been pondering is: Who was the main target and why?

Did the killer want to harm Mark and Slade the most because of believing they were sexually abusing Shasta and Dylan or some other kids. Or Mark and Slade were more severly beaten to get information out of Brenda due to her being an informant or she ripped off a dealer.


The blood on the steps and door could have come from the killers murder weapon and hands exiting the crime scene. The killers could have also searched the cars. I would like to know if the neighbor noticed if they looked ransacked.

Another big question is time of death. If they died after midnight but before 6 am Monday, then I think it is possible that Shasta, Dylan, and Slade were asleep. I would like to know how many bedrooms the house had and who had to share a room. Perhaps all 3 of them heard the violent attack begin and Slade told his siblings to hide completely out of sight and to not come out until he came back. If so that leads to 2 possible endings: 1. Killers find them and take them somewhere else to finish the job. 2. Lunther, Steve, Vance, or Jesse finds them and hides them leaving someone else to discover the bodies. They eventually share this with LE and the kids are now in protective custody.

I hope and pray they are alive. Right now not enough info is being released to draw a acurate conculsion. I would say odds are 50/50. I find it hard to believe a family member would kill Slade unless he had done something awful and they felt that there was no other choice but to kill them and take Shasta and Dylan away. I think the killers were known to Brenda and Mark, and this was not completely random.