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golfmom
05-25-2005, 02:45 PM
I've been noodling around different scenarios.

I need to make a poll ... does anyone know how to do that here?

Was the murder pre-meditated or an act of passion?

Jeana (DP)
05-25-2005, 03:06 PM
I think I would need an arrest before I can decide. I mean if I don't know "who," its hard to answer.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 03:10 PM
I think I would need an arrest before I can decide. I mean if I don't know "who," its hard to answer.

I guess what I'm asking is do you think this murder took careful planning or was it a murder of opportunity or spur-of-the-moment . . .

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 04:23 PM
I guess what I'm asking is do you think this murder took careful planning or was it a murder of opportunity or spur-of-the-moment . . .
If Raven did it--heat of the moment
If the perp was an aquaintance (or either Raven's or Janet's) Premeditated

How's that for sitting on the fence?

angarella
05-25-2005, 04:31 PM
I think that it was definitely premeditated. I also believe that Raven did not directly do it, but had someone do it. I think the soccer game was an alibi. And I think that when he did go home and call 911, he told them that she had been shot, which I think was supposed to be the original plan.

JMO!

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 04:45 PM
which I think was supposed to be the original plan.


Never thought of that! Maybe the gun that was taken from the home wasn't theirs.

However, I still don't believe that Raven could have found the money for a hit. That $9,000 was too far gone.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 04:56 PM
Stabbing is way too personal. When's the last time you heard someone hiring a hitman to stab someone to death? I'm leaning towards a spur-of-the-moment thing, but there is a lot out there to suggest that it might be premeditated.

Kaiden's pictures and Raven's website are geared to making him look like a clean-cut loving father, Janet's been slowly disappearing over time. Also Raven was into that organizational thingy where you make lists of everything.

But the crime scene just seems so disorganized to me! and Raven was clearly an organized person. Look through the photos. You can see how much care and upkeep went into his motorcycle and truck.

eta: Raven wouldn't have hired a hit-man unless he had a designer label attached to him.

nanandjim
05-25-2005, 04:58 PM
I don't know if I am qualified to take a guess because I haven't followed everything in detail. However, from what I have read, I am very suspicious of Raven. I feel that he premeditated his wife's murder.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 05:04 PM
I don't know if I am qualified to take a guess because I haven't followed everything in detail. However, from what I have read, I am very suspicious of Raven. I feel that he premeditated his wife's murder.

Which easily pushes back to motive and IMHO there is a whole list of possible motives.

lauriej
05-25-2005, 05:22 PM
Never thought of that! Maybe the gun that was taken from the home wasn't theirs.

However, I still don't believe that Raven could have found the money for a hit. That $9,000 was too far gone.
.......there was a gun taken ?

...i agree that $9000 doesn't go too far, especially if he'd been taking the money a little at a time...he probably needed it to keep the loans current on his 'boy toys'.........after all, he didn't fritter it away on meaningless things like---rent !)

...i'm curious if there is a life insurance policy ?

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 05:26 PM
Well, after my rush to judgement of the poor fiance in the runaway bride matter, I've promised myself to remain firmly on the fence until I'm convincingly pushed to one side or the other. :silenced:

Unless, of course, there is such a time that my gut instinct is clearly in overdrive. Then I reserve the right to jump off at any time without even looking. ;)

golfmom
05-25-2005, 05:35 PM
Well, after my rush to judgement of the poor fiance in the runaway bride matter, I've promised myself to remain firmly on the fence until I'm convincingly pushed to one side or the other. :silenced:

Unless, of course, there is such a time that my gut instinct is clearly in overdrive. Then I reserve the right to jump off at any time without even looking. ;)

LOL ... browse around I look forward to seeing you jump!

PrayersForMaura
05-25-2005, 05:55 PM
I wonder where she was stabbed in the chest and if she was stabbed anywhere else but her chest. The chest is where the heart is and if the stab was close to the heart, I see it was very personal and very close.
I've read about people getting their throats slit and other places and those don't seem as personal as a heart does to me.

And I still want to know about the trace taken on Janet's hand and if she fired a gun in self defense.

It seems too weird/coincidental to me that Raven collects Knives and of all ways to die, Janet dies by way of a knife.
Sort of how it seemed so coincidental that Scott Peterson went "fishing" where Laci and Conner just happened to wash up.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 05:59 PM
It seems too weird/coincidental to me that Raven collects Knives and of all ways to die, Janet dies by way of a knife.
Sort of how it seemed so coincidental that Scott Peterson went "fishing" where Laci and Conner just happened to wash up.

Ding-ding-ding ...
Are you ready for the defense, just because he collects knives, has an affair, and says he's single on the internet doesn't make him a killer.

PrayersForMaura
05-25-2005, 05:59 PM
Well, after my rush to judgement of the poor fiance in the runaway bride matter, I've promised myself to remain firmly on the fence until I'm convincingly pushed to one side or the other. :silenced:

Unless, of course, there is such a time that my gut instinct is clearly in overdrive. Then I reserve the right to jump off at any time without even looking. ;)
I also rushed to judgement of the runaway bride's fiance, too. But we soon found out after Jennifer went missing that he took a polygraph and passed, and she had been known to do similar things before. If we had known that information firsthand, it would've been easier to not accuse the fiance. However, with Raven, we also don't know if he really had an affair as some people who know him and Janet have mentioned and we don't know if he took a polygraph and passed but we do know that he has not spoken out to the media to help find his wife's killer, nor has the family. Nothing was apparently stolen from the home and LE says this was not a random crime.
It happened because someone had something against Janet. Being the devout Mormon she is, it could only be a jealous woman, a stalker or Raven.
If I had to pick, I would pick Raven.

PrayersForMaura
05-25-2005, 06:03 PM
Ding-ding-ding ...
Are you ready for the defense, just because he collects knives, has an affair, and says he's single on the internet doesn't make him a killer.
that defense didn't convince a jury of 12 in the Peterson case, thank goodness. If that's their only defense, that's mighty weak, too.
If Scott had a solid alibi with witnesses, THAT would've been a good defense.
We don't know Janet's time of death so even if Raven played soccer, we don't know what else he did all day.

We do know that he is a dishonest person and is a braggart.
Embezzling funds from an employer makes him dishonest and who is to stay he is being truthful about anything else.
He certainly wasn't the model Mormon.

Maybe LE isn't sensationalizing this trial like Laci's was so that if a verdict of guilty came down and it was Raven, then a Geragos couldn't cry that the media sabatoged the case.

LadyGraffix@mac.com
05-25-2005, 06:03 PM
:laugh:
eta: Raven wouldn't have hired a hit-man unless he had a designer label attached to him.

Thinkoflaura
05-25-2005, 06:17 PM
First, no one has been arrested so my thoughts are mainly speculative in nature. I wanted to make it clear for legal purposes.

I believe the murder was well thought out in that the killer was apparently smart enough to have a clean change of clothing ( possibly minus underwear), to probably go to a creek by the property to change clothing, had money for pay phone calls if needed ( some of which spilled out of the pockets) and had an alibi. I don't know how airtight the alibi is, but that may be the sticking point if they don't have a coroner experienced in establishing TOD.

The use of either a knife from the household knives or from one's personal collection of display type knives ( apparently knife collecting is a hobby for some men) to stab Janet indicates that the perp. was familiar with and comfortable with his surroundings. An outside killer would have brought a deadly weapon with him, and most likely a gun not a knife, due to the distance factor. However, we need forensic test results to be able to include or exclude the use of a knife from the personal property of Raven and Janet.

The presence or absence of a baby and a dog doesn't matter at all if the perp was a family member. Reason being that the dog wouldn't bark and the baby is way too young to tell anything or remember anything the night his mother died. Would a stranger have left her baby alive and her dog barking its head off? ( Think of Nicole Simpson's Akita blood-stained and howling all through the neighborhood).

The big unknown for me involves the issue of computers. I THINK that computers play a larger role in this murder than we even know now. All of us seem to have an intuitive thing going on about the whys and whos, and mine is telling me that most likely Janet had found something that cauesed her to threaten to leave Raven once and for all, or turn him over to LE ( a separate large criminal charge perhaps) but with Raven's baby in her arms this time. It would have to be something worse than embezzlement. After all, she didn't leave him when that was breaking news. I can totally see Raven saying " I stole so that we could have nice things for the baby. I did it for you".. and being contrite in words. She might have forgiven him a white collar, non-violent, non-personalized crime of this sort, but there is really no justification for most alarming things ehe might have found on a PC. ( Indications of an affair, misappropriation of money they shared together and needed desperately to stay in their house, as evidenced from the landlord's comments about their financial arrangements with him 2 days before the murder, or something involving a larger theft or fraud- I don't think any woman would stand for it twice, and most of us would probably leave the first time- the presence of a baby may have made the difference the first time).

I also believe the first report of the 911 call to be correct. That she WAS emailing with either a present or former co-worker or co-workers and something alarmed them enough to call 911 and put themselves in harm's way by going to the house.
It has not been reported who made the 911 call. If it had been Raven, I think the news reports would have said so. They are protecting the identity of the caller for some reason. Personal safety would be my guess. If some guy just killed his wife in my town, I would certainly report it, but I definitely would not want him to know that I was the one who called 911 and possibly even found her body.

No one has commented much about this aspect of the crime, and frankly, I am puzzled, because I think it is a huge clue into the perp's identity. John Douglas and Robert Ressler, as well as Clint Vanzandt ( not sure of his last name) are all criminal profilers or are or have been employed in the business of catching killers and they have ALL said, independently of each other, that the last thing a family member who murders wants to do is be the one who " finds" the body or who the one who calls 911 and has to " talk to the police" about finding the body.

We have history behind the theory that Janet might be leaving Raven or had found something meant to be well-hidden on his PC: The couple separated in the early spring of 2004 and lived in different towns for a few months before Kaiden was born. Janet would have known she was pregnant by April 2004 at the latest. So, it's entirely possible that the presence of a viable pregnancy with a male heir ( vs another ectopic pregnancy as she is said to have had not long before becoming pregnant with Kaiden) is what brought the couple back together again. From what I was told, they reconciled after her first trimester. I see Raven as being totally filled with pride at the fact that the baby was a boy.. I doubt a girl would have been as thrilling to his narcissistic self.

People always consider motive for a homicide, although a motive is not necessary to prove guilt. The motivations for this murder all seem to come from inside the household from what we have been able to find out about Janet: She was hard-working. She was pregnant when they separated and she was not the one cheating on him, although I have been told that he was rampantly unfaithful to her. She appears to have been very tolerant and supportive of his disorganized " plans" for his life. I would not be surprised at all to find out that he had taken out large insurance policies on Janet within 30-60 days of her murder. He is one of those people who seems to think he is charming enough to get away with anything.

I find his April 25 journal entry, the only one which remains in his BLOG, to be very stream of consciousness putting thoughts down on the computer writing. I don't think he was writing for a thousand or more prying eyes, I think he was writing about his sense of failure mixed in with his inflated sense of pride and of being someone entirely special in many ways.
Raven's sense of self- importance is at great variance with the circumstances. Fired,facing serious legal charges whether he pled guilty or not, possibly having a minimal job at best, having to get free rent to live, putting vehicles he loved and indentified with up for sale... He was NOT a success, except in his mind.
Personal freedom for Raven meant freedom from his marriage, IMHO. And murder, not divorce with 18 or more years of child support may have been the way to accomplish his goal.

Disclaimer: My theory is composed of known facts about the crime, and speculation. It is not factual, and is not submitted as such, but as opinion for thought only. Thanks.

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 06:24 PM
.......there was a gun taken ?

...i'm curious if there is a life insurance policy ?
Yes, there was a gun taken, fired casings and unfired casings. Take a look at the search warrant.

And I'm doubtful there was an insurance policy. Look at all of the things that Raven's "income" would have to go support--school loans, car loans, probably credit cards, rent (oops!). There wouldn't have been any money for insurance policies.

Thinkoflaura
05-25-2005, 06:30 PM
Yes, there was a gun taken, fired casings and unfired casings. Take a look at the search warrant.

And I'm doubtful there was an insurance policy. Look at all of the things that Raven's "income" would have to go support--school loans, car loans, probably credit cards, rent (oops!). There wouldn't have been any money for insurance policies.
Jennifred, are you aware that you can get $2 million dollars worth of insurance ( with double payout or more for accidental death vs. natural death) on a 25 year old woman for less than $50 per month?

IF he was only going to need the insurance for the next 30 days after issue, then what's $50 compared to $4 million?
Not saying he did this, but that the payout for money expended would be better than any casino odds.A surefire thing, UNLESS he gets caught in the web of deception.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 06:32 PM
Yes, there was a gun taken, fired casings and unfired casings. Take a look at the search warrant.
.

Jen, they were not taken during the search, they told the judge that they wanted to look for guns and fired and unfired casings in the request for the search warrant.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-25-2005, 06:38 PM
Maybe the gun that was taken from the home wasn't theirs.
How did I miss that? I don't recall a gun being removed from the house. :confused: Then again, I've only looked at the search warrant inventory 30 times. :)

golfmom
05-25-2005, 06:43 PM
How did I miss that? I don't recall a gun being removed from the house. :confused: Then again, I've only looked at the search warrant inventory 30 times. :)

JG, those items weren't removed from the home, that's some of the items they told the judge they would be looking for during the search.

Also, remember I said I reserved my right to change my mind on the pre-meditated issue? ThinkofLaura's post flipped me. I'm camping in the pre-meditated campground now.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-25-2005, 06:53 PM
JG, those items weren't removed from the home, that's some of the items they told the judge they would be looking for during the search.
Thank goodness! I couldn't imagine how I could possibly have missed that!

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 07:07 PM
I believe the murder was well thought out in that the killer was apparently smart enough to have a clean change of clothing ( possibly minus underwear), to probably go to a creek by the property to change clothing, had money for pay phone calls if needed ( some of which spilled out of the pockets) and had an alibi. I don't know how airtight the alibi is, but that may be the sticking point if they don't have a coroner experienced in establishing TOD.

Your words made me think of something, although purely speculative as well. Maybe the person didn't have a change a clothes by the river at all. Could it possibly be that the person was smart enough to leave the clothes he/she was wearing by the river before the crime, commit the crime naked, and then return to clean the body/weapon and place the clothes back on. It would explain how Raven could have done it himself without much evidence finding it's way onto his clothing.

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 07:10 PM
Jennifred, are you aware that you can get $2 million dollars worth of insurance ( with double payout or more for accidental death vs. natural death) on a 25 year old woman for less than $50 per month?

IF he was only going to need the insurance for the next 30 days after issue, then what's $50 compared to $4 million?
Not saying he did this, but that the payout for money expended would be better than any casino odds.A surefire thing, UNLESS he gets caught in the web of deception.

There would definitely be an insurance policy. Janet worked for a large corporation that carried employee life insurance, which is on average 3 to 5x salary. Most provide additional accidental coverage of substantial amounts for significantly low dollar contributions. I've tried to get specifics on benefit info for her employer's policies, but could really only come up with the fact that these benefits are provided. It would be interesting to know 1) how much, and 2) when she became eligible for these policies in terms of when she was hired.

golfmom
05-25-2005, 07:13 PM
There would definitely be an insurance policy. Janet worked for a large corporation that carried employee life insurance, which is on average 3 to 5x salary. Most provide additional accidental coverage of substantial amounts for significantly low dollar contributions. I've tried to get specifics on benefit info for her employer's policies, but could really only come up with the fact that these benefits are provided. It would be interesting to know 1) how much, and 2) when she became eligible for these policies in terms of when she was hired.

Or if those policies carried over with COBRA from her previous employer. With a new baby I could see how she'd want to hang onto her old insurance until the new insurance kicked in.

Thinkoflaura
05-25-2005, 07:13 PM
Absolutely, a spouse could murder a family member nude. There was a blood smear on a wall leading to a door and they also did swabbings from the doorknob as I recall. The smear could have been his bloody body contacting the wall ( although I have thought it was hers until now..).

Although, with a knife being swung around, and with Janet being athletic.. he was taking a risk if naked, wasn't he? The Lorena Bobbitt case and all of that. :)

Your words made me think of something, although purely speculative as well. Maybe the person didn't have a change a clothes by the river at all. Could it possibly be that the person was smart enough to leave the clothes he/she was wearing by the river before the crime, commit the crime naked, and then return to clean the body/weapon and place the clothes back on. It would explain how Raven could have done it himself without much evidence finding it's way onto his clothing.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Or if those policies carried over with COBRA from her previous employer. With a new baby I could see how she'd want to hang onto her old insurance until the new insurance kicked in.
COBRA is only for health insurance, isn't it, not life insurance?

golfmom
05-25-2005, 07:18 PM
Life insurance, however, is not covered under COBRA. - Click her for COBRA Insurance Life Insurance Alternative Options

http://www.cobrainsurance.com/COBRA_Law.htm

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 07:38 PM
Jen, they were not taken during the search, they told the judge that they wanted to look for guns and fired and unfired casings in the request for the search warrant.
Thanks for the correction GM, looking at the incident report now, I jumped the gun (not very funny, I know) on that one. This is my first analysis on a crime, and so I did misunderstand the first few paragraphs of the search warrant. I thought that they were listing the things that they took and not just what they'd take if they found it.

So, sorry for the confusion!

golfmom
05-25-2005, 07:40 PM
Thanks for the correction GM, looking at the incident report now, I jumped the gun (not very funny, I know) on that one. This is my first analysis on a crime, and so I did misunderstand the first few paragraphs of the search warrant. I thought that they were listing the things that they took and not just what they'd take if they found it.

So, sorry for the confusion!

Jen, I had to puzzle over the whole thing for awhile too ... I thought for sure they got computer files and was bummed to see that they didn't.

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 07:40 PM
There would definitely be an insurance policy. Janet worked for a large corporation that carried employee life insurance, which is on average 3 to 5x salary. Most provide additional accidental coverage of substantial amounts for significantly low dollar contributions. I've tried to get specifics on benefit info for her employer's policies, but could really only come up with the fact that these benefits are provided. It would be interesting to know 1) how much, and 2) when she became eligible for these policies in terms of when she was hired.
Would that be from the employer that she and Raven left? Do you get those benefits if you are dismissed?

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-25-2005, 07:45 PM
Jen, I had to puzzle over the whole thing for awhile too ... I thought for sure they got computer files and was bummed to see that they didn't.
And many of us thought for a while that a Palm Pilot was seized but it turned out only to be a Palm Pilot charger!

Jenifred
05-25-2005, 07:49 PM
And many of us thought for a while that a Palm Pilot was seized but it turned out only to be a Palm Pilot charger!
Do they don't even have that? And he has said that he loves his gadgets! The more that I read about this the more I think that LE might be dropping the ball.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-25-2005, 07:50 PM
Do they don't even have that? And he has said that he loves his gadgets! The more that I read about this the more I think that LE might be dropping the ball.
No, no palm pilot was listed in the inventory. :waitasec:

vero
05-25-2005, 09:43 PM
Your words made me think of something, although purely speculative as well. Maybe the person didn't have a change a clothes by the river at all. Could it possibly be that the person was smart enough to leave the clothes he/she was wearing by the river before the crime, commit the crime naked, and then return to clean the body/weapon and place the clothes back on. It would explain how Raven could have done it himself without much evidence finding it's way onto his clothing.
In the Elizabeth Montgomery movie about Lizzie Borden, that was presented as her MO.

It would have been way to chilly for me to do that, but then, I'm not the hardy, outdoors type! LOL.

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 10:37 PM
Or if those policies carried over with COBRA from her previous employer. With a new baby I could see how she'd want to hang onto her old insurance until the new insurance kicked in.

No, life policies don't carry over with COBRA. Given their age, lack of home-ownership, money issues, and fact they had just had their first baby, I'd guess they didn't have any policies other than what was available through and employer, if it all. If there were any employer policies, though, it would have been with Janet's employer at the time of death, Martin Marrietta.

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 10:41 PM
Would that be from the employer that she and Raven left? Do you get those benefits if you are dismissed?

No, Janet had a more recent employer at the time of her death. Martin Marrietta, although I've read conflicting information on when she started there.

I looked at their page on benefits offered, and life insurance is there, but it doesn't go into details on how soon an employee is eligible for this benefit. Often, it's 90 days, and if she did start working there in January as one account indicated, she would have been covered at some point in April. Hmmm.

Current employer benefit page (http://www.martinmarietta.com/Employment/benefits.asp)

LvsAMystry
05-25-2005, 10:43 PM
In the Elizabeth Montgomery movie about Lizzie Borden, that was presented as her MO.

It would have been way to chilly for me to do that, but then, I'm not the hardy, outdoors type! LOL.

Yep, you'd want to at least keep your underwear on. Makes you wonder since that was the one garment RA was missing on the night of the murder.

angarella
05-25-2005, 11:00 PM
I still think this was hired out. The original plan was with a gun, but the killer found it way too easy and just did it with a knife. Still think that Raven was behind it, just, he did not know the final result.

JMO!

Ang

Thinkoflaura
05-25-2005, 11:18 PM
Could you explain this sentence in your post above?

"The original plan was with a gun, but the killer found it way too easy and just did it with a knife."

IMO, a gun is the easiest and surest way to cause death to an individual possible.
How was it " easier" to kill someone with a knife?
I'm remembering my recent experience with a knife.. BIG machete type knife too.. I tried to kill a stupid snake in the back yard with a large knife recently.. I think I ended up clubbing it to death more than anything else, and snake blood was everywhere. It was a bloody creepy mess and I had to clean up everywhere.( only point of reference I have to killing or maiming anything with a knife).

If Jenet's muder was a paid hit kill, then it wasn't a thrill kill.
What you are saying sounds almost like the killer wanted the kill to be the thrill, not the money. I'm not buying that, this was a crime of passion, IMO.

Thanks.

Thinkoflaura
05-25-2005, 11:22 PM
Sometimes our point of reference is a bit limited because we don't know what it's like to garotte, shoot, stab or club someone to death. I know I certainly don't.

I posted above about my stabbing/ clubbing a snake to death, and it took close to 20 minutes in a non-moving snake for the sucker to finally probably bleed to death. Blood everywhere from a long, sharp knife that is kept stored in a leather sheath.

With that in mind, how many of us have ever killed something with any amount of force and were you surprised at what it took to kill and how long, how messy, non messy, etc?
Women are often at a huge disadvantage because we usually haven't hiunted with gun or knife.

lauriej
05-26-2005, 02:29 AM
Absolutely, a spouse could murder a family member nude. There was a blood smear on a wall leading to a door and they also did swabbings from the doorknob as I recall. The smear could have been his bloody body contacting the wall ( although I have thought it was hers until now..).

Although, with a knife being swung around, and with Janet being athletic.. he was taking a risk if naked, wasn't he? The Lorena Bobbitt case and all of that. :)
..i think it would be completely natural....he takes a shower prior to the soccer game....is walking around in his boxers....( ummmmmmmmm..i mean, designer underwear!)

...plus, she's found in the UPSTAIRS bedroom ( den ?) ...someone made it up there without her being concerned about it...( a family member ? someone she knew ?)

...raven's affairs...............could one of them been a mutual friend? someone raven got really close to while janet was in her later stages of pegnancy? someone who hated to see janet and raven working it out now ? i could see a scorned woman using a knife......

Thinkoflaura
05-26-2005, 02:41 AM
..i think it would be completely natural....he takes a shower prior to the soccer game....is walking around in his boxers....( ummmmmmmmm..i mean, designer underwear!)

...plus, she's found in the UPSTAIRS bedroom ( den ?) ...someone made it up there without her being concerned about it...( a family member ? someone she knew ?)

...raven's affairs...............could one of them been a mutual friend? someone raven got really close to while janet was in her later stages of pegnancy? someone who hated to see janet and raven working it out now ? i could see a scorned woman using a knife......

I was with you until the scorned woman thing. As a woman who has had everything under the sun done to me when I have broken up with boyfriends in the past, no woman associated with the guy has ever come after me. Not that there were any, but I suspect that a few were two timing... ( Men don't take rejection well at all either).

I think, based upon the principles of psychology and also drawing from my personal experience with humans who felt " scorned or hurt" that a person will tend to seek revenge against the person who directly hurt them.
A mad woman would have slit Raven's throat or something of the mortal injury type instead of killing Janet if she was a sadistic psychopath.
Also, if we are talking sadistic psychopath here, what about the ultimate proof of Raven's unfaithful behavior from a lover's point of view? Kaiden would not have been spared, IMO.

Women rarely kill adults in an upper body stabbing. The reason is that unless Janet was already on the floor, women do NOT have very much upper body strength unless they are pro athletes. The average woman is weak in upper body and overhand strength. It's something I used to work on for hours a day back when I was into the tennis and golf stuff, and no matter what I did, I still lagged far behind the curve which was set for men. We can't build the muscle mass without steroids, which is a whole other ballgame. YUCK.

IMHO, this was a premeditated crime of passion perpetrated by a male known to Janet and with access to her home. Raven.
Just my opinion.

lauriej
05-26-2005, 02:55 AM
...good point...

...in reality, another woman WOULD be in extreme danger going after another woman with a knife.....( esp. one as athletic and fit as janet...)

...i hate to see the choices dwindle down to raven.....her husband....he DOES appear to love that baby.....how could he leave him alone for hours while he went to the game? possibly crying as he ran out the door ?...heartless.....

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 07:55 AM
...i hate to see the choices dwindle down to raven.....her husband....he DOES appear to love that baby.....how could he leave him alone for hours while he went to the game? possibly crying as he ran out the door ?...heartless.....
We still don't know the time of death here. Maybe the baby was already asleep (I try to have my kids in bed by 7). And we've already seen that their house is somewhat secluded and set off the road. Maybe Raven felt safe that if doors were locked behind him that the baby woud be fine sleeping in his bed. Maybe Raven knew the he had to get out and be seen so he could have an alibi. IMO By 6 months old, the baby should probably be sleeping 12 hours and through the night (or one wake up and then back to sleep after a bottle). Hasn't anyone else left a child sleeping while a quick errand needed to be run?

golfmom
05-26-2005, 08:10 AM
Hasn't anyone else left a child sleeping while a quick errand needed to be run?

I never did with my kids, but you're right, it's certainly possible to leave a baby safely in their crib for a couple of hours ... especially if you know your little one is a sound sleeper.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 08:16 AM
I'm really curious about this. How do police even know that the clothes that Raven had on when they got there were the clothes that he was wearing all day or night? IF Raven did do this, there was nothing to prevent him from changing his clothes, and in fact, I would think that he would have before calling LE. In any murder case, the clothes collected at the scene from a possible suspect don't mean much to me.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 08:22 AM
I'm really curious about this. How do police even know that the clothes that Raven had on when they got there were the clothes that he was wearing all day or night? IF Raven did do this, there was nothing to prevent him from changing his clothes, and in fact, I would think that he would have before calling LE. In any murder case, the clothes collected at the scene from a possible suspect don't mean much to me.

If he played in the soccer game he absolutely did change. What was to prevent him from pulling over in some remote area and ditching / burying the clothes? And then arriving for the soccer game fresh as a daisy. Especially if this crime is premeditated, he would have allowed himself lots of opportunity to remove incriminating evidence.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 08:23 AM
I looked at their page on benefits offered, and life insurance is there, but it doesn't go into details on how soon an employee is eligible for this benefit. Often, it's 90 days, and if she did start working there in January as one account indicated, she would have been covered at some point in April. Hmmm.
It's also listed in the timeline that in April, the landlord said that he had given the Abaroa's the two previous month's rent-free. That would indicate February & March. We've also heard, (and there's a link on this forum somewhere), that the church had collected another month's rent for them. This would have carried them through April. I wonder if the help was offered or if it was requested. I also wonder if the three months just happened that way or if someone had told the landlord and the pastor that they only needed two or three months help, just until Janet's benefits kicked in.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 08:27 AM
I posted above about my stabbing/ clubbing a snake to death, and it took close to 20 minutes in a non-moving snake for the sucker to finally probably bleed to death. Blood everywhere from a long, sharp knife that is kept stored in a leather sheath.

With that in mind, how many of us have ever killed something with any amount of force and were you surprised at what it took to kill and how long, how messy, non messy, etc?
Women are often at a huge disadvantage because we usually haven't hiunted with gun or knife.

Just like you don't see many woman using a gun for suicide, I personally think that stabbing someone is more of a man's crime.

And that goes back to the hitman theory, way too messy and personal to use a knife. Finally, unless you're slitting someone's throat there is a pretty good chance of survival, I've heard of people with 20+ stab wounds surviving.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 08:30 AM
It's also listed in the timeline that in April, the landlord said that he had given the Abaroa's the two previous month's rent-free. That would indicate February & March. We've also heard, (and there's a link on this forum somewhere), that the church had collected another month's rent for them. This would have carried them through April. I wonder if the help was offered or if it was requested. I also wonder if the three months just happened that way or if someone had told the landlord and the pastor that they only needed two or three months help, just until Janet's benefits kicked in.

My memory is that Raven was terminated in January, so that jells with the timeline. Perhaps they were carrying COBRA and waiting for Janet's benefit to kick in.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 08:31 AM
...i hate to see the choices dwindle down to raven.....her husband....he DOES appear to love that baby.....how could he leave him alone for hours while he went to the game? possibly crying as he ran out the door ?...heartless.....IF Raven did this, no matter how much he loves his baby, it isn't enough because anyone that loves their child with their whole heart would never steal their child's mother from him, (certain cases of drug use, abuse, etc. exluded). And IF he didn't mind stabbing his wife to death, I don't think that he would have cared much about leaving the baby behind in a locked house, especially if there was some perceived benefit that outweighed the potential risks. IF Raven is a killer, I don't know that he would even have the same perception of outside dangers as we would. Does someone who is capable of stabbing someone to death fear a killer entering their home? Do killers fear other killers, kidnappers, etc? I genuinely don't know. They're obviously working with a distorted sense of things.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 08:39 AM
And that goes back to the hitman theory, way too messy and personal to use a knife. Finally, unless you're slitting someone's throat there is a pretty good chance of survival, I've heard of people with 20+ stab wounds surviving. I agree that a hitman would never use a knife as long as a gun is available. And if one isn't, I would assume that the next preferred choice would be a heavy object of some kind. It still maintains some distance between the victim and the perp. But regardless of who used the knife, I think that the odds of survival issue would easily be solved by either waiting to see if the victim is dead or not or getting them in an area that is sure to kill.

Obviously, time of death is critical. I think that it would also be important to know if the baby was in his crib asleep when police got there. If time of death is established as 6:00 - 7:00 P.M. for instance, it's more unlikely that the baby would have been in bed asleep. Of course schedules vary for everyone but it could help in terms of other evidence and statements taken from friends & co-workers that may have known Janet's routine.

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 08:54 AM
I wonder if the help was offered or if it was requested. I also wonder if the three months just happened that way or if someone had told the landlord and the pastor that they only needed two or three months help, just until Janet's benefits kicked in.
Usually, you have to ask for help. Every LDS member would know that. However, it seems interesting to note that Raven would have had to swallow his pride to go and ask. Or I guess that it's a possibility that maybe Janet had been talking to someone (like a bishop's wife, the president of the Relief Society--the women's org. at church--) and then they went and talked to the bishop too.

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 08:56 AM
IF Raven did this, no matter how much he loves his baby, it isn't enough because anyone that loves their child with their whole heart would never steal their child's mother from him, (certain cases of drug use, abuse, etc. exluded).
This is why I think that it was heat of the moment. I think he did love Janet, or at least that's what I hope, but it enraged him so that she would think of leaving and taking the baby with her that he just cracked and went after her.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 08:56 AM
Usually, you have to ask for help. Every LDS member would know that. However, it seems interesting to note that Raven would have had to swallow his pride to go and ask. Or I guess that it's a possibility that maybe Janet had been talking to someone (like a bishop's wife, the president of the Relief Society--the women's org. at church--) and then they went and talked to the bishop too.
Thanks for helping me to understand that better. :) It is quite possible that it could have been Janet that asked for the help, and she herself could have said that they just needed help until her benefits kicked in in April.

ewwwinteresting
05-26-2005, 08:59 AM
IF Raven did this, no matter how much he loves his baby, it isn't enough because anyone that loves their child with their whole heart would never steal their child's mother from him, (certain cases of drug use, abuse, etc. exluded). And IF he didn't mind stabbing his wife to death, I don't think that he would have cared much about leaving the baby behind in a locked house, especially if there was some perceived benefit that outweighed the potential risks. IF Raven is a killer, I don't know that he would even have the same perception of outside dangers as we would. Does someone who is capable of stabbing someone to death fear a killer entering their home? Do killers fear other killers, kidnappers, etc? I genuinely don't know. They're obviously working with a distorted sense of things.
Knowing the time of death would help tremendously in deciding whether I think it was premeditated! I was "told" that Raven left the house at 8:30 to go play soccer and returned shortly before 11:00. Another question that begs for an answer is where was the baby when the police arrived? Would Raven really leave it upstairs if there was a possibility that a stranger killed his wife? If the baby was upstairs, I would speculate he thought there was no longer a danger present in the house. Hmmmm.........

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 09:01 AM
I'm really curious about this. How do police even know that the clothes that Raven had on when they got there were the clothes that he was wearing all day or night? IF Raven did do this, there was nothing to prevent him from changing his clothes, and in fact, I would think that he would have before calling LE. In any murder case, the clothes collected at the scene from a possible suspect don't mean much to me.
This is what I've been thinking all along. How easy would it for him to have taken anything and everything that he was wearing at the time, stuffed it in a bag and deposited everything in a dumpster on the way. Or even stop at various places and drop it piece by peice to make absolutely sure that it's not going to be found. This is why I also think that LE have dropped the ball. Did they even think to search the field that Raven was playing at that night for blood traces in the showers or clothes in the dumpster? Probably not.

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 09:06 AM
Knowing the time of death would help tremendously in deciding whether I think it was premeditated! I was "told" that Raven left the house at 8:30 to go play soccer and returned shortly before 11:00. Another question that begs for an answer is where was the baby when the police arrived? Would Raven really leave it upstairs if there was a possibility that a stranger killed his wife? If the baby was upstairs, I would speculate he thought there was no longer a danger present in the house. Hmmmm.........See, if Raven left the house at 8:30, I think that gives him enough time to murder Janet. If the baby was in bed by 7, 7:30 there's a good chunk of time that this could have been accomplished.

IMHO, if I found my spouse on the floor dead, I probably would have pulled the baby out of bed. Anyone agree? I don't know if it would have been noted in the warrant, but the officer that wrote it said that he talked to Raven, but he didn't note if the baby was there with him or not.

ewwwinteresting
05-26-2005, 09:14 AM
See, if Raven left the house at 8:30, I think that gives him enough time to murder Janet. If the baby was in bed by 7, 7:30 there's a good chunk of time that this could have been accomplished.

IMHO, if I found my spouse on the floor dead, I probably would have pulled the baby out of bed. Anyone agree? I don't know if it would have been noted in the warrant, but the officer that wrote it said that he talked to Raven, but he didn't note if the baby was there with him or not.
It just states that Raven stated his wife was upstairs hurt (which indicates Raven was downstairs at the time the police arrived). I know everybody acts differently to trauma, but if I found my spouse bleeding on the floor, I certainly would have blood all over me trying to find out if they were dead.....trying to save him/her...holding them. AND then I would certainly grab any of my children and run out of the house to safety in case the murderer was still in the residence!

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 09:20 AM
It just states that Raven stated his wife was upstairs hurt (which indicates Raven was downstairs at the time the police arrived). I know everybody acts differently to trauma, but if I found my spouse bleeding on the floor, I certainly would have blood all over me trying to find out if they were dead.....trying to save him/her...holding them. AND then I would certainly grab any of my children and run out of the house to safety in case the murderer was still in the residence!
I wonder if I'd be too stunned to do anything but call the police. I'd either do that or be covered in blood, like you said. But definitely, the children would be out of the house.

Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:21 AM
Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.

That's a really good point, LE has only stated that there were multiple stab wounds and identified only a chest wound.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:22 AM
Another question that begs for an answer is where was the baby when the police arrived? Would Raven really leave it upstairs if there was a possibility that a stranger killed his wife? If the baby was upstairs, I would speculate he thought there was no longer a danger present in the house. Hmmmm.........Exact same thoughts that I've been having. IMO, there is no way whatsoever that a loving & doting parent would leave the child in an upstairs crib after finding his wife brutally murdered in the next room. Then again, I guess that everyone reacts differently, some running around like chickens without heads, but I believe that in most cases, a parent would grab the baby first, and run downstairs to make the call to 911.

I imagine that LE has probably gotten some kind of timeline based on when people had seen Raven that day. TOD will be considered against that time line. I'm sure that they have much more to work with than we do right now. At least I sure hope so!!!

Does anyone else find it odd that one of Raven's neighbors said that she knew everyone in the neighborhood but didn't know them; had never seen them? Did they move in in August? And the baby was also born in August? And they seem to be an outdoors-y couple? Wouldn't they have taken the baby for walks around the neighborhood in the evening? I guess that not everyone does that but I would think that someone like Raven, who himself claims to be outgoing, good at making friends quickly (based on his past experience of moving frequently), would have sought out friends in the area. Reading his journal gave me the impression that that's a part of who he is. I guess that if Janet was shy like people have mentioned, and they had a young baby, they could have just been too busy to seek out friends just yet. Having a new baby does have a way of keeping you busy, and changing your life for a while, (in mostly wonderful ways, of course)!

He's made new friends online recently (although they could be people that he knew prior and just added). Maybe he began to seek out friends online because of that very reason of being too busy with a young baby to really reach out in the neighborhood.

Where was the church that collected money for them? They obviously had established enough of a relationship with the church to get money from them. But the woman in the neighborhood that "know(s) everybody" had never seen the Abaroa family.

Then again, if Janet was indeed shy, and Raven had several soccer teams of which he was a part, I suppose it might not be so odd after all that they hadn't yet made friends in the neighborhood, especially if they weren't looking at this as the place in which they wanted to settle down.

I don't know ... I'm typing myself in circles. Well, if nothing else, maybe my ramblings will spur some ideas in those of you with more organized minds than mine! :crazy:

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:26 AM
Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.If she was on the computer IM'ing with someone, she might not have even known that someone was there. I didn't see any mention at all of a chair but there was reference to the desk so it's probably unlikely that she was in the chair at the time of the stabbing unless the chair was removed. ETA: there must have been a chair in there. We've seen pictures of Raven sitting at the desk with Kaiden on his lap. Unless there's another room with a desk. But if they collected evidence from the desk, the wall, and the floor, why wouldn't they have collected evidence from the chair? Maybe the chair is keeping the palm pilot and the computer company somewhere.

Has anyone heard actual facts that there was no evidence under her fingernails? I've only seen a mention from someone saying that a family member in LE told her that Raven is not a POI.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:30 AM
If she was on the computer IM'ing with someone, she might not have even known that someone was there. I didn't see any mention at all of a chair but there was reference to the desk so it's probably unlikely that she was in the chair at the time of the stabbing unless the chair was removed.

Has anyone heard actual facts that there was no evidence under her fingernails? I've only seen a mention from someone saying that a family member in LE told her that Raven is not a POI.

During the interview with Janet's family the TH said that they are still waiting on results from the crime lab. I'm hanging my hat on that.

ewwwinteresting
05-26-2005, 09:30 AM
Actually, according to Raven's website, Kaiden was born October 17, 2004.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:31 AM
Actually, according to Raven's website, Kaiden was born October 17, 2004.Uh-oh, doesn't our timeline say August? I'll have to look.

ETA: In that case, it's not so odd that they hadn't taken him for walks. It was probably too cold for such a young baby, and Spring had only just started when Janet died.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:33 AM
During the interview with Janet's family the TH said that they are still waiting on results from the crime lab. I'm hanging my hat on that.
You're too fast for me! I edited my post, and when I was finished, you had already typed this! :)

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:34 AM
Regarding leaving the baby alone, I found this in the Trials forum . . .

....................
Upon his arrest, Green told police he had dinner with his estranged wife, Stacy Green, and their two children Nov. 2 at her home at 1216 N. Arbogast St., Griffith.

David Green told police that after the children went to bed he told Stacy Green, 29, he was seeing another woman and she became angry. He said she picked up a knife so he kicked her several times to defend himself. He said he put his arm around her neck, squeezed hard and felt something pop before she went limp, according to the probable cause affidavit.

Green said when he laid her on the floor, he saw blood coming from her neck. Lake County Coroner David Pastrick said Stacy Green died of a stab wound to the left side of the neck that cut her right carotid artery and fractured her cervical spine.

Rather than call for help, Green said he washed off the knife and put it back in the drawer, then went to his girlfriend's house for the night.

The next morning Green called his 5-year-old son asking to talk with Mommy. When his son said she couldn't come to the phone, Green repeatedly asked him to get Mommy. The boy finally said Mommy was on the floor and there was blood.

That's when Green called 911.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:37 AM
Golfmom, I had forgotten about that disgusting case! This guy set up his own 5 year-old to find his mother's dead & bloody body! Very good illustration of the point - a murderer is not necessarily all that concerned about protecting their children.

ewwwinteresting
05-26-2005, 09:38 AM
Uh-oh, doesn't our timeline say August? I'll have to look.

ETA: In that case, it's not so odd that they hadn't taken him for walks. It was probably too cold for such a young baby, and Spring had only just started when Janet died.
Yes, the timeline is wrong as far as Kaiden's birth. Also, Raven did not embezzle monies in August. He was charged with 5 counts (July, Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec). I thought I read somewhere he was on vacation in August!

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:39 AM
Golfmom, I had forgotten about that disgusting case! This guy set up his own 5 year-old to find his mother's dead & bloody body! Very good illustration of the point - a murderer is not necessarily all that concerned about protecting their children.

Considering there were two children in the house, I was thinking he probably talked on the phone with the oldest ... not that anyone should ever leave a 5 year-old unsupervised!!! ... but what a PoS that guy is! :behindbar

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 09:42 AM
Also, Raven did not embezzle monies in August. He was charged with 5 counts (July, Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec). I thought I read somewhere he was on vacation in August!
It probaby shouldn't but that strikes me funny. Didn't he think that if the only month in which money was NOT missing was the month that he was on vacation that someone might be able to put two and two together? :doh: Not such good planning in the case of the embezzlement anyway.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:45 AM
It probaby shouldn't but that strikes me funny. Didn't he think that if the only month in which money was NOT missing was the month that he was on vacation that someone might be able to put two and two together? :doh: Not such good planning in the case of the embezzlement anyway.

Maybe he wanted to wait a month to see if he got away with it.

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 09:47 AM
Where was the church that collected money for them? They obviously had established enough of a relationship with the church to get money from them. But the woman in the neighborhood that "know(s) everybody" had never seen the Abaroa family.
The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?

golfmom
05-26-2005, 09:50 AM
The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?

This system makes sense, that way if say someone lost their house to a fire, there would be funds on hand to help them. Also, it could provide privacy for those in need ... no one needs to announce before a congregation ... so and so lost their job and was arrested last week and they have a new baby ... dig deep to help this couple out.

ewwwinteresting
05-26-2005, 09:52 AM
Maybe he wanted to wait a month to see if he got away with it.
Now that makes sense!

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 10:19 AM
The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?I worded it poorly. I just mean the money that the church gave them (that you've explained has been collected over time for this type of purpose). Nevertheless, they had to have some type of relationship with the church. Is it the church as a whole (a national contact you would have to make), or the church that they attended that would give them the money?

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 10:36 AM
I worded it poorly. I just mean the money that the church gave them (that you've explained has been collected over time for this type of purpose). Nevertheless, they had to have some type of relationship with the church. Is it the church as a whole (a national contact you would have to make), or the church that they attended that would give them the money?
No, it's not a national contact, it would be someone in their local ward/congregation. And you really don't have to have a relationship with the church, but to be a member of it. Someone that hasn't gone to church in years can still be given money just as much as someone who attends every week.

What is also interesting to note, that I've always heard that help should be sought first from family or government resources and that church funds should be used last. As in this case, they should have asked family for money to cover rent and if that help wasn't available, they should have then used the funds from the church.

golfmom
05-26-2005, 10:43 AM
No, it's not a national contact, it would be someone in their local ward/congregation. And you really don't have to have a relationship with the church, but to be a member of it. Someone that hasn't gone to church in years can still be given money just as much as someone who attends every week.

What is also interesting to note, that I've always heard that help should be sought first from family or government resources and that church funds should be used last. As in this case, they should have asked family for money to cover rent and if that help wasn't available, they should have then used the funds from the church.

You know, your post really drives home how desperate Janet and Raven must have been. Both losing their jobs, no source of income, high debts and a new baby . . . Even with Janet getting a job, it would take a long time to recover from a hit like that.

Thinkoflaura
05-26-2005, 12:46 PM
IMO By 6 months old, the baby should probably be sleeping 12 hours and through the night (or one wake up and then back to sleep after a bottle). Hasn't anyone else left a child sleeping while a quick errand needed to be run?
I have never left my children alone, no. I have wished I could at times, LOL, but have managed to resist.
I have reported a couple we once lived next door to for leaving their children unattended late at night. They would go to a mutual friend and neighbor's house and drink wine and goof off until 2 AM. We were there one night for a different reason and these goofball parents claimed to have a baby monitor with them. Must have been the world's most powerful and smallest baby monitor, LOL.
I called Family Protective Services because what they were doing was neglect and abandonment. It is child endangerment to leave a child alone if they are not old enough to take care of themselves.

My plea: Please wake the baby up and take him or her with you if you must go out late.
It only takes a second for a tragedy to happen. We've all seen it on the news.

OriginalJerseyGirl
05-26-2005, 01:58 PM
Jenifred, thank you so much for explaining the situation regarding the money from the church. :)

Jenifred
05-26-2005, 03:13 PM
Jenifred, thank you so much for explaining the situation regarding the money from the church. :)
YW! Just want a clear picture on how this system worked. It probably would have been very quietly done and the whole congregation wouldn't have known it was even taking place. Which makes me wonder how it got out to the press. I'll have to reread that article.

I don't think that this murder was financially motivated though.

And when I was speaking of leaving a baby home, I mean just while you went around the corner to pick up another child at school (15 minutes), not going grocery shopping for an hour or especially not drinking with friends until late into the evening--thanks for calling DPS on those neighbors.

lauriej
06-19-2005, 03:45 AM
You know, your post really drives home how desperate Janet and Raven must have been. Both losing their jobs, no source of income, high debts and a new baby . . . Even with Janet getting a job, it would take a long time to recover from a hit like that.
.......re-reading this thread............ adding in the info g/m had today on YET another vehicle.........the ( mysteriously burned out ) honda........the monthly payments ( vehicles alone! ) are astounding.....!

NCBanker
06-20-2005, 02:11 PM
While most of this information is correct, I'd like to make a couple of corrections.

Firstly, the information about them having received help from the Church most likely came from their landlord, who had received a rent check from the Church. The money isn't given to the individual, to be used at their discretion. A series of checks would be cut to whomever was owed the money, i.e. mortgage lender/landlord, auto lender, utility provider, etc.

This money comes from local funds, which are paid as fast offerings. We've discussed the whole fast offering topic before so I won't digress. If you need further explanation, let me know. Provided that sufficient funds have been received locally, that money is administered on a local level, not by the Church in Utah. In cases where there is a shortage, money is then requested from the Stake (which is the equivalent of an Arch Diocese) and finally from Salt Lake if all local ward and stake funds have been exhausted (however, this rarely happens).

Several people in their ward would have known about their receiving assistance: the Bishop, his two counselors, and the executive secretary (4), the Elder's Quorum President (1), High Priest Group Leader (1), Relief Society President (1), Young Men's President (1), and Ward Mission Leader (1). These people make up the Ward Welfare Committee. If assistance is rendered, these people are aware of it and discuss as a group how to further help the individuals in need.

While it was stated that inactive members can simply request money and receive it, it is not that simple. If someone is not active and not living the teachings of the gospel, they are encouraged to become active. In fact, the Bishop and others would work with them in this process to bring them back to full fellowship. The system is set up to withstand any potential abuse. If the individual is unwilling to make changes in their life, i.e. living the commandments, attending Church, etc., they probably won't receive help for long.

Additionally, in most cases, the individual receiving assistance would be expected to make some sort of contribution in the form of labor in order to continue receiving assistance. This contribution could be cleaning the building, doing yard work around the building, etc. Our welfare system is NOT like that of the US Government. We EXPECT individuals to make a sincere effort to find work, and we will go to great efforts to assist them in this process. In fact, we have employment specialists throughout the Church.


YW! Just want a clear picture on how this system worked. It probably would have been very quietly done and the whole congregation wouldn't have known it was even taking place. Which makes me wonder how it got out to the press. I'll have to reread that article.

I don't think that this murder was financially motivated though.

And when I was speaking of leaving a baby home, I mean just while you went around the corner to pick up another child at school (15 minutes), not going grocery shopping for an hour or especially not drinking with friends until late into the evening--thanks for calling DPS on those neighbors.

ewwwinteresting
06-24-2005, 02:38 AM
There are obviously difference of opinions among us posters regarding this subject.

I, for one, thought for sure it was a crime of passion. Something made Raven lose it completely that night and he killed Janet. We have speculated maybe she was leaving him or confronted him about the financial mess he put them in. After reading through many of these threads tonight, I may just go over to JG side. Janet may have been a "thorn in his side" and Raven had enough of that. He certainly didn't appear to be very willing to sell his materialistic possessions that he collected over the years. Making lame attempts to post them for sell but never actually selling them. Maybe the material items made Raven who he was, defined him, and he would do anything to keep them. IMO, without her, Raven could be himself and not the pretend mormon husband that thought his family should come before his possessions.

Jenifred
06-24-2005, 08:01 AM
As I was sitting here writing my post about how either it was a crime of passion or premeditated and how it could probably go either way. I remembered Raven's ramblings posted the night before on his website. And I think now, that he was probably planning it. If it is true that there were only 3 stab wounds (UNCONFIRMED BTW, who posted that?) it shows me that it was controlled. That the perp knew what he was doing and stopped when the job was finished. I'm thinking that those posts could probably hang him if he were to ever stand trial. How could it just be coincidence that he was writing about starting over the day before his wife was killed? It just seems off that he had finally come to this epiphany and that he's going to make everything better and start over again and then the next evening his wife was killed.

I don't know. I'm just tired of nothing happening and nothing being said. Even if the family was instructed to be silent, I think it's time to say something. Two months is too long to wait. Especially a crime deemed "not random."

OriginalJerseyGirl
06-24-2005, 08:15 AM
The primary, (if not only), thing that leads me to believe that this could very well have been planned is all of the back and forth posts about selling his possessions. It is clear to see from Raven's own words that he realized what he had to do to get control of his life, and that he was very conflicted about it. He did not want to sell his stuff, and he flip-flopped in his mind repeatedly and over at least several months. I would give anything to be able to see or hear the thought processes he went through when contemplating what he needed to do to change his life. If the actual murder was not planned or was not committed by Raven, I still believe whole-heartedly that Raven had wondered on more than one occassion what his life would be like without Janet, but also how he could accomplish that without losing either his toys or his son. I shudder at the prospect of him and his mom being in on the embezzlement together, and wonder how far she would be willing to go to help him out. Would she set up a "trust fund" if he asked her to after Janet's death or was the trust fund totally her own idea?

And I totally agree with EI that Raven was a "pretend" Mormon. It almost seems as if he was trying too hard to prove to someone, (maybe even himself), that he is a good Mormon. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I don't know how someone can be a good person of any faith while expressing the idea that his embezzlement was really no big deal.

Jenifred
06-24-2005, 08:32 AM
And I'd like to know why in all of the world would a trust fund be set up by Janet's mother-in-law and in Utah? It just doesn't seem like that would be in a mother-in-law's job description to do. Leave it to Janet's family or Janet's husband. It really seems as if someone saw $$$ and did something to make sure they weren't left out of their cut.

ewwwinteresting
06-24-2005, 03:28 PM
And I'd like to know why in all of the world would a trust fund be set up by Janet's mother-in-law and in Utah? It just doesn't seem like that would be in a mother-in-law's job description to do. Leave it to Janet's family or Janet's husband. It really seems as if someone saw $$$ and did something to make sure they weren't left out of their cut.
I think you have nailed it here. If Raven and his mother were embezzlement partners (and got caught), they certainly would have been trying to think of a new way to "make money". What an easy way to incur free money from sypathetic people. My wife got murdered, poor me with a baby to take care of, please send money. We've already heard how she pushed the trust fund at the memorial (which, btw, is absolutely mind boggling to me and would make me get up and walk out). It seems this was her own agenda. imo, Raven you pretend to be the grieving spouse and I'll push the feel sorry for you, send money button. It just makes my stomach turn to think this may be the situation.:sick:

LTUlegal
06-27-2005, 02:29 PM
As I was sitting here writing my post about how either it was a crime of passion or premeditated and how it could probably go either way. I remembered Raven's ramblings posted the night before on his website. And I think now, that he was probably planning it. If it is true that there were only 3 stab wounds (UNCONFIRMED BTW, who posted that?) it shows me that it was controlled. That the perp knew what he was doing and stopped when the job was finished. I'm thinking that those posts could probably hang him if he were to ever stand trial. How could it just be coincidence that he was writing about starting over the day before his wife was killed? It just seems off that he had finally come to this epiphany and that he's going to make everything better and start over again and then the next evening his wife was killed.

I don't know. I'm just tired of nothing happening and nothing being said. Even if the family was instructed to be silent, I think it's time to say something. Two months is too long to wait. Especially a crime deemed "not random."
I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.

SouthEastSleuth
06-27-2005, 02:58 PM
I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.
...and then on the flip side of this - Raven. I have to believe, or hope, that if in fact Raven is innocent, that he has Durham LE on speed dial...to ask them constantly for updates on who killed his wife and the mother of his son.

I read a legal thriller not too long ago.. The main character was a police detective. And there was one thing that motivated her, even in the worst of times on the job. A Mrs. John Doe. Mrs. Doe's son had been brutally murdered, years ago. The perp was never caught. This detective was the lead on the case. And all of these years later, once a week, Mrs. Doe would call... just to see if there way any news on the case. Not accusingly. Not judgmentally. Just a question. "Any news on my son?"

Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.

So let's hope that as we search, dig, and scramble for information and answers, that Raven, too, is doing the same thing...making that daily or weekly call to LE - "Any news about my wife?"

If not, the silence is indeed deafening.

LTUlegal
06-27-2005, 04:11 PM
...and then on the flip side of this - Raven. I have to believe, or hope, that if in fact Raven is innocent, that he has Durham LE on speed dial...to ask them constantly for updates on who killed his wife and the mother of his son.

I read a legal thriller not too long ago.. The main character was a police detective. And there was one thing that motivated her, even in the worst of times on the job. A Mrs. John Doe. Mrs. Doe's son had been brutally murdered, years ago. The perp was never caught. This detective was the lead on the case. And all of these years later, once a week, Mrs. Doe would call... just to see if there way any news on the case. Not accusingly. Not judgmentally. Just a question. "Any news on my son?"

Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.

So let's hope that as we search, dig, and scramble for information and answers, that Raven, too, is doing the same thing...making that daily or weekly call to LE - "Any news about my wife?"

If not, the silence is indeed deafening.
Agreed! :clap:

lauriej
06-27-2005, 07:09 PM
LTU...welcome to the forum!

...it's always nice to see a new 'face' on board, i look forwad to reading your posts!

...your "voices for victims", i love that, it's great to have you here ,as we all seek justice for janet.

NCBanker
06-27-2005, 09:37 PM
Based on what we know about Raven (and hopefully what Janet's family now knows), if I were them, I'd be suing for custody of the child. Raven isn't fit to raise that child by himself. Neither is his family fit to assist in the rearing of the child. Janet's family would provide the most stable, loving environment. I can just see it now - Raven jumping from job to job, hopping from bed to bed with who knows how many different women while this poor child gets passed around to different family members like a hot potato. I hope her family is seriously considering this. I would do it in a heartbeat.


I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.

LTUlegal
06-28-2005, 12:55 AM
LTU...welcome to the forum!

...it's always nice to see a new 'face' on board, i look forwad to reading your posts!

...your "voices for victims", i love that, it's great to have you here ,as we all seek justice for janet.
Thanks! Glad to be here! I've read long enough, I thought I should speak up! :)

ewwwinteresting
06-28-2005, 01:05 AM
Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.
Unless he already knows the answers to these questions and has been told to :silenced:

ewwwinteresting
06-28-2005, 01:09 AM
Based on what we know about Raven (and hopefully what Janet's family now knows), if I were them, I'd be suing for custody of the child. Raven isn't fit to raise that child by himself. Neither is his family fit to assist in the rearing of the child. Janet's family would provide the most stable, loving environment. I can just see it now - Raven jumping from job to job, hopping from bed to bed with who knows how many different women while this poor child gets passed around to different family members like a hot potato. I hope her family is seriously considering this. I would do it in a heartbeat.
I totally agree with you NC. Raven hasn't even grown up himself, and probably never will. His family taking care of Kaiden?....omg.....look at his siblings! Who would want Kaiden to turn out like Raven or any of them? Kaiden needs to be raised to grow up just like him Mamma and who best to do that, but her parents!

lauriej
06-28-2005, 01:32 AM
Based on what we know about Raven (and hopefully what Janet's family now knows), if I were them, I'd be suing for custody of the child. Raven isn't fit to raise that child by himself. Neither is his family fit to assist in the rearing of the child. Janet's family would provide the most stable, loving environment. I can just see it now - Raven jumping from job to job, hopping from bed to bed with who knows how many different women while this poor child gets passed around to different family members like a hot potato. I hope her family is seriously considering this. I would do it in a heartbeat.
..i don't disagree, i wonder how it would play out in court though...

...the courts ( to my knowledge in canada) seem to favour keeping the child with a parent if possible... and i've seen stories where the most unbelievable people are granted custody...drug-addicted, jobless...but yet they swear they're "turning their life around"...presto.."the court" rules the child better off with the parent.....

...what could janet's family say in court , at this moment, to convince a judge to take kaiden away from his father ?
...perhaps in july, once the embezzlement case moves forward, and raven has a certified felony record.........and once the evidence is finally in, who knows, at that time, he may be a suspect, maybe even arrested...or may be cleared once and for all....

...i wonder if raven did take kaiden with him on his trip back west ?

ewwwinteresting
06-28-2005, 01:49 AM
...the courts ( to my knowledge in canada) seem to favour keeping the child with a parent if possible... and i've seen stories where the most unbelievable people are granted custody...drug-addicted, jobless...but yet they swear they're "turning their life around"...presto.."the court" rules the child better off with the parent.....
I would hope the maybe LE could help the family with this. If Raven is a POI or a suspect, I would hope they would help keep Kaiden safe with Janet's family. I always think, ye with the better attorney wins, no matter what the evidence. So if Janet's family hires a really good attorney, they may have a decent case to pursue. Unfortunately something like this will cost money (of course Kaiden would be worth it) and hopefully Raven splurged his (I mean Janet's) entire trust fund on toys and there is none left. :)

lauriej
06-28-2005, 02:03 AM
...i'm with you on this.... abve all, kaiden deserves to grow up as janet would have wanted him to..........and that is within the mormon church.....of which raven appears to have little sincere knowledge of...

ewwwinteresting
06-28-2005, 05:13 AM
Not quite changing my idea to spur of the moment, but what if Raven was still fooling around (which we have unconfirmed info he was), and he gave Janet a SDT? Janet finds out, is furious and confronts him that night. If she accepted the previous affairs and thought he was being faithful and then found out, not only that he wasn't, but also gave her HIV or another SDT, I could see her packing her bags and leaving with Kaiden. They couldn't test Raven, without his permission, for HIV or another SDT, but the autopsy would show if Janet contracted this, correct? Would they think to check something like this or is it routine?

OriginalJerseyGirl
06-28-2005, 08:19 AM
Welcome LTUlegal! :)

LTUlegal
06-28-2005, 12:00 PM
Welcome LTUlegal! :)
TY! :p

ItsMe
06-30-2005, 12:47 PM
If Raven did it (God forbid), it was spur of the moment. The reason I think this is because when I was going through my divorce, my ex once threatened to kill me if I tried to take our son away. To which I responded, “That would be a great idea because I’d be dead and you’d be in jail and he would be left without either of his parents.” Luckily it was only a conversation of what the future might be like. I wasn’t trying to take our son away from him at all at that point. My ex isn’t a violent man and I consider him to be a good Mormon, but at that moment in time the thought of him being without our son freaked him out so much that if I had been really trying to do it………..I can’t even go there! So, this is the only way I can imagine that Raven could’ve done it and everything else would have been just to cover it up.

If it’s someone that she didn’t know like a stocker, I think it would have to have been planned since nothing was stolen and there were no signs of forced entry or sexual misconduct. My only problem with a planned murder is the fact that she was stabbed. There are just too many reasons why I would think that a planned stabbing is not a good idea, but then again I am not a killer. However, this does lead me to believe that the prep is someone she knew and that it was an opportunistic “spur of the moment” type crime.

OriginalJerseyGirl
06-30-2005, 12:55 PM
I've always wondered if it was a stabbing merely because the perp couldn't get his or her hands on a gun.

mad hatter
06-30-2005, 09:58 PM
I've always wondered if it was a stabbing merely because the perp couldn't get his or her hands on a gun.
I've thought that too. That it was was the first thing the killer could get their hands on.... so it would have been spur of the moment. But if it was spur of the moment then the perp, I would think, would have been in a rage, but haven't I read there were only 3 stab wounds? If someone was in such a rage wouldn't there have been more?

snapple
07-01-2005, 12:24 AM
If Raven did it (God forbid), it was spur of the moment. The reason I think this is because when I was going through my divorce, my ex once threatened to kill me if I tried to take our son away. To which I responded, “That would be a great idea because I’d be dead and you’d be in jail and he would be left without either of his parents.” Luckily it was only a conversation of what the future might be like. I wasn’t trying to take our son away from him at all at that point. My ex isn’t a violent man and I consider him to be a good Mormon, but at that moment in time the thought of him being without our son freaked him out so much that if I had been really trying to do it………..I can’t even go there! So, this is the only way I can imagine that Raven could’ve done it and everything else would have been just to cover it up.

If it’s someone that she didn’t know like a stocker, I think it would have to have been planned since nothing was stolen and there were no signs of forced entry or sexual misconduct. My only problem with a planned murder is the fact that she was stabbed. There are just too many reasons why I would think that a planned stabbing is not a good idea, but then again I am not a killer. However, this does lead me to believe that the prep is someone she knew and that it was an opportunistic “spur of the moment” type crime.
Your ex wasn't a violent man, was a good mormon and still freaked out and threatened to kill you, BUT didn't. So, what if the man had a temper and wasn't a good mormon...From what we know of Raven, I could see Raven freaking out, threatening to kill Janet and following through with that threat in a rage.

ewwwinteresting
07-01-2005, 01:46 AM
I've thought that too. That it was was the first thing the killer could get their hands on.... so it would have been spur of the moment. But if it was spur of the moment then the perp, I would think, would have been in a rage, but haven't I read there were only 3 stab wounds? If someone was in such a rage wouldn't there have been more?
I've been thinking about that to and thought, what if it was a crime of passion but he didn't actually want to kill Janet and after stabbing her 3 times, stopped, starting thinking, what have I done, and then tried to help her but it was too late because the last stab was in the chest and killed her? In that scenerio, it could be spur of the moment rage and only have 3 stab wounds.

OriginalJerseyGirl
07-01-2005, 09:36 AM
I've thought that too. That it was was the first thing the killer could get their hands on.... so it would have been spur of the moment. But if it was spur of the moment then the perp, I would think, would have been in a rage, but haven't I read there were only 3 stab wounds? If someone was in such a rage wouldn't there have been more?I don't agree with it being a spur of the moment crime, however. I think that the perp could have looked into getting a gun, realized that s/he couldn't get one without a paper trail, and altered their plan out of necessity.

OriginalJerseyGirl
07-01-2005, 09:37 AM
I've been thinking about that to and thought, what if it was a crime of passion but he didn't actually want to kill Janet and after stabbing her 3 times, stopped, starting thinking, what have I done, and then tried to help her but it was too late because the last stab was in the chest and killed her? In that scenerio, it could be spur of the moment rage and only have 3 stab wounds.True but at the same time, I think that if he realized after the fact, "Oh no, what have I done?", that he would have been too disoriented to not leave enough clues to have been arrested weeks, (if not months), ago.

ETA: If the three wound statement is correct, and there was only one potentially fatal wound then it seems to me that either the person got very lucky (or unlucky as most of us view it), with the one and only wound that happened to be fatal or the person only wanted to leave one wound, and made certain that it would end up being fatal. The ME's report would be extremely helpful here in determining how much damage there was to the heart and/or lung and/or major arteries.

Breehannah6
08-06-2005, 12:53 AM
Sorry I am not up on this case,I am curious as to why everyone thinks her other half did it? I keep hearing he had affairs ect.... toys,played soccer , what more did he gain from doing this? Lots of married men have affairs and have every intention of staying with their spouse.

It apperas to me he had his bread buttered with Janet, plus jam on it so why kill her? Men do say silly things when you say you are leaving with the kids ,but the same men go pale a dizzy when you say "And I am not taking the kids" trust me Ive done it to call his bluff !!!lol

I have read lots of this particular threads in here yet still I havent come up with a motive as I am sure she wasnt having affairs and I think he was the type of guy who wouldnt have liked his comfort zone threatened.

I dont think the stolen sports mechadise is a big thing really, young men do lots of this type of stuff everday !!Love to hear from others on this

terminatrixator
08-06-2005, 01:42 AM
Premeditated, he was starting his new life, moved his beloved vehicle so it didn't get handled by the detectives, day before he posts about his new beginning.

I have heard that before, why would SP kill Laci, he had his cake and was eating it too. Lots of men have affairs and don't kill. SP did and in the end I'm sure we'll all find out that Raven did too.

mysteriew
08-06-2005, 01:55 AM
I am suspicious of him, but not definately decided on guilt.
1) His behavior before and after the murder
2) LE has not declared he has been cleared as a suspect. They didn't outright declare him as a suspect. But they did say they don't think it was a random murder, and that the public is not in any danger. They think Janet was "targeted" for the murder.
3) The family was under a tremendous strain- financially, legally, he was at fault and he knew it. That along with another child to care for would have put huge strain on the marriage.

chicoliving
08-06-2005, 01:59 AM
There is that pesky statistic also.......usually its the spouse. Just sayin.....

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-07-2005, 08:23 AM
And somewhere on one of these threads, someone posted a list of factors that contribute to the murder (of a spouse?), and it included financial trouble, losing a job, etc. Ironically, we are now learning that Raven may not have only lost his ES job in January, resulting in the legal (and some more of the financial?) trouble, but that he may indeed have been fired from a job within one week prior to Janet's murder. Also, being unmedicated for mania could be a big factor. And add in there any possible life insurance policy, and it seems the perfect recipe for disaster. JMO.

terminatrixator
08-07-2005, 01:01 PM
There is a statistic, I will try to find, and post, but for now you can consider it hearsay until I find it, that shows that unmedicated people with bi-polar disorder or Manic Depression results in Suicide rather than Homocide.

I am not disputing the he may have been labeled with bi-polar disorder/Manic Depression, but I think it may be more an issue of Sociopathic tendancies, which fits Raven quite well.

golfmom
08-07-2005, 01:15 PM
There is a statistic, I will try to find, and post, but for now you can consider it hearsay until I find it, that shows that unmedicated people with bi-polar disorder or Manic Depression results in Suicide rather than Homocide.

I am not disputing the he may have been labeled with bi-polar disorder/Manic Depression, but I think it may be more an issue of Sociopathic tendancies, which fits Raven quite well.

As my grandmother used to say, "A dog can have fleas AND ticks"

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-07-2005, 07:56 PM
There is a statistic, I will try to find, and post, but for now you can consider it hearsay until I find it, that shows that unmedicated people with bi-polar disorder or Manic Depression results in Suicide rather than Homocide.

I am not disputing the he may have been labeled with bi-polar disorder/Manic Depression, but I think it may be more an issue of Sociopathic tendancies, which fits Raven quite well.We've heard that Raven was diagnosed as "manic". I don't know if or how that differs from manic-depressive/bi-polar. Even if it doesn't differ, not all people will exhibit the "usual" behaviors. There are always those that vary.

terminatrixator
08-07-2005, 10:54 PM
Very true Jersey Girl, with manic depression, their impulses may not as controlled, but in the case of Raven, besides the mania, there is such a hightened visions of grandure with him, that leads me to suspect, that he also has some sociopathic tendancies. You can have more than one form of a personality disorder.

Mania causes irritability, impulsivity, and imparied judgment. It could then lead to murder, but I do believe that the murder of Janet was more thought out, whether it started that day, or a day or two previously.

I still haven't come across the study that I had seen previously, but I will try to find some good studies on the occurrences of Murder by people with Bi-Polar/Manic Depression.

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-08-2005, 08:29 AM
Very true Jersey Girl, with manic depression, their impulses may not as controlled, but in the case of Raven, besides the mania, there is such a hightened visions of grandure with him, that leads me to suspect, that he also has some sociopathic tendancies. You can have more than one form of a personality disorder.

Mania causes irritability, impulsivity, and imparied judgment. It could then lead to murder, but I do believe that the murder of Janet was more thought out, whether it started that day, or a day or two previously.Or long before that even. I agree with this post completely.

ewwwinteresting
08-08-2005, 01:50 PM
Or long before that even. I agree with this post completely.
Yeah, JG finally agrees with a post :):)
:woohoo:

golfmom
08-08-2005, 02:43 PM
You can have more than one form of a personality disorder.


Yep. Fleas & Tics.

ewwwinteresting
08-09-2005, 02:01 AM
Yep. Fleas & Tics.
...and don't you think they have a "special" soap in prison to help get rid of fleas AND ticks????

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-09-2005, 06:47 AM
Yeah, JG finally agrees with a post :):)
:woohoo:Ouch. That was harsh. :confused:

:waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec: I'm confused. Do I come off as argumentative?

Just so every one knows - I wasn't saying that I agree as a way of validating terminatrixator's post. I believe that everyone's ideas are valid whether or not I agree with them. I just like to look at things from every angle, and use that to generate discussion. I thought that was a good thing. Now I worry that all of this time, I've looked like an opinionated jerk. :(

golfmom
08-09-2005, 07:13 AM
Ouch. That was harsh. :confused:

:waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec: I'm confused. Do I come off as argumentative?

Just so every one knows - I wasn't saying that I agree as a way of validating terminatrixator's post. I believe that everyone's ideas are valid whether or not I agree with them. I just like to look at things from every angle, and use that to generate discussion. I thought that was a good thing. Now I worry that all of this time, I've looked like an opinionated jerk. :(

Honey, I think she was just playing around.

;)

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-09-2005, 07:33 AM
Honey, I think she was just playing around.

;) I'm fully aware of that. But I wanted to make sure that I explained myself to anyone that might think that I haven't valued their opinions over the months. Some people say that there's a degree of truth in every joke so I'm offering a clarification just in case.

ewwwinteresting
08-09-2005, 02:03 PM
I'm fully aware of that. But I wanted to make sure that I explained myself to anyone that might think that I haven't valued their opinions over the months. Some people say that there's a degree of truth in every joke so I'm offering a clarification just in case.
Oh JG, I was really just playing around....no truth to it whatsoever!
:blowkiss:
I guess there are some posters that might not have understood that. For the record, I thoroughly enjoy your posts (whether you agree or agree to disagree). Having discussions on this case is what has gotten us this far so please continue to discuss, agree, disagree, batter back and forth...it keeps this forum alive in spite of the "people" trying to put it in the cold case section!

terminatrixator
08-09-2005, 07:00 PM
Jersey, I have done more research, and there is actually many more cases of homicides committed while a person with bi-polars in a Mania state, which I was completely shocked about reading. Thank you for getting me to look around more and realize, just one study isn't conclusive.

Many people that I have known with bi-polar disorder are more of manic depressive, but spend more time in the depressive state and the mania has always been more of self-hurting type thing, (spending too much money, not sleeping, having to party hardy while in the manic state.)

I found this PDF file that actually shows statistics and I was quite shocked.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/318/7193/1240.pdf

It's quite interesting, and it is quite indepth. This is a completely different study than the one I had seen previously. This study goes on to list, whether the person was working, married, have they previously sought help, etc.

Thanks again JG for bringing up the subject, I really want to find more conclusive studies though through different articles.

I think it's great that you can see both sides of the coin and bring up topics to discuss and try to see things from different angles.

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-09-2005, 08:27 PM
Oh JG, I was really just playing around....no truth to it whatsoever!
:blowkiss:
I guess there are some posters that might not have understood that. For the record, I thoroughly enjoy your posts (whether you agree or agree to disagree). Having discussions on this case is what has gotten us this far so please continue to discuss, agree, disagree, batter back and forth...it keeps this forum alive in spite of the "people" trying to put it in the cold case section!Agreed, EI. No hard feelings. I answered your post before I had my caffeine. I'm feeling much better now! :)

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-09-2005, 08:32 PM
Thanks so much terminatrixator for finding that study. I'm going to read it when I'm done posting. I don't currently know any of the statistics regarding mania and violent behavior so I'm very interested in seeing what the findings are. I look forward to the potential discussions on the issue.

Breehannah6
08-09-2005, 08:42 PM
MOTIVE - IF Raven, then why? (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24926) that is the thread that has the Bipolar postings on it!
I havent done a case study,I live with an 18year old son who has bipolar+OCD so I have posted the things I see ,the mania ect...

SouthEastSleuth
08-18-2005, 01:43 PM
In light of today's new info regarding Janet being pregnant - the idea of pre-meditated versus spur of the moment takes on a whole new light.

IF Raven knew Janet was pregnant, when he found out and how he reacted become crucial issues. Was he angry? Could this have led him down a road of actually planning to murder Janet, and as harsh as it sounds, rid himself of this even NEW problem, a new baby on the way, as well? So harsh and calculating to even think about I guess, but certainly possible...

OriginalJerseyGirl
08-18-2005, 01:56 PM
I have to say that it Raven is NOT the perp, he really ought to change his ways 'cuz things just seem to be piling up in terms of him looking guilty. Still, I obviously cannot say for certain that Raven is guilty of this crime.

Having said that, Janet's pregnancy does seem to add to the possibility of premeditation. At the same time, however, why would Raven do this even in part due to the pregnancy? We've heard that he was tough on Janet, kind of controlling. Wouldn't having two children tie her down even more in his eyes?

And then on the other side of that, if this is something that Raven has considered doing before, he probably thought about life with Kaiden as a single dad. Maybe he didn't want to have to be responsible for two children on his own so realized that if he was going to go through with it, it would have to be soon.

Oh, I'm so confused. I don't know what to think.

golfmom
08-18-2005, 04:13 PM
Alright JG, I'm ready to switch songs.

As the walls ... come tumbling down ...

Moxie
08-18-2005, 04:18 PM
Alright JG, I'm ready to switch songs.

As the walls ... come tumbling down ...that is so weird - that song has been in my head ever since I read the news today.

golfmom
08-18-2005, 04:27 PM
that is so weird - that song has been in my head ever since I read the news today.

hmmmm I wonder why .... bahahahahaha :woohoo:

golfmom
08-22-2005, 07:25 PM
Do you think Google is such a powerful search engine that it will be able to determine if this was a premeditated crime or spur of the moment?

You know, this would make an interesting media blitz for the Power of Google.

ewwwinteresting
08-22-2005, 11:33 PM
Do you think Google is such a powerful search engine that it will be able to determine if this was a premeditated crime or spur of the moment?

You know, this would make an interesting media blitz for the Power of Google.
I was thinking that exact same thing tonight. I wonder if LE is going after the premeditated theory and looking for that evidence on web/email activity. If they do obtain it, you are right, what a media blitz for Google!

terminatrixator
08-23-2005, 02:02 PM
Since I'm a bit cranky today, I would like to go on the record once again and scream at the top of my lungs PREMEDITATED!

L L & S
08-23-2005, 08:05 PM
Eww may not of heard you out at sea, but I did... keep it down some of us are trying to sleep.

ewwwinteresting
08-24-2005, 03:56 AM
Thanks guys for caring about my relaxation :)

lauriej
08-24-2005, 04:05 AM
..........nothing beats some good R & R........

...of course now we do expect you to have come back with a serious thought process going on.........:)

Thinkoflaura
04-11-2006, 11:11 PM
It's been a LONG time since we discussed certain aspects of the crime.
I was reading the media links for hours last night.
Although many links are dead now, I did have a thought or two that I wanted to run by you who are still hanging on to this case like I am.

Regarding Raven's flurry of online activity on the day before Janet was murdered: I think she took a home pregnancy test and told Raven the stick turned blue within 24 hours of his " new life musings'.
It's the day he starts a whole new " blog", with a story about how he is " Free As A Bird" and " goal- oriented' like his mother. As most of us remember from reading his self- serving ramblings, he also says that she " overcame" obstacles and hardships...

I think he planned the crime 2 days before he murdered her, and here's why other than the lie of being Single on Myspace.com ( a place for weirdos).

Janet used her car. It was registered to her, she paid the tax on time per the records while Raven's vehicles often had deliquent tax owed...
What happened on the afternoon of Janet's murder?
HER car was taken to the shop, leaving her without transportation.
So, there was no way she could have gone a friend's house if she and the Bird were having new marital strife over the pregnancy. No way she could have decided to seek help from her Bishop, because again, her car was in the shop, having been taken there after work that day.

Raven was apparently out in the truck, and the Vehix thing was parked a way from the house with a for sale sign on it at that time.

The car being taken into the shop on that day really hit me because I know how utterly marooned and stuck I have felt when my car has been in for a tune up and the other family vehicles weren't available to me.

The other thought I had was if he planned to kill her by stabbing, he had to know there would be a struggle. There was a chance that she could have gotten away and made it to her car IF it was there. She was an athlete and probably almost as strong as he was.
I bet he made sure there were no truck keys anywhere around the bedroom that night.

Does anyone know if Raven owned a gun at the time? I am sorry to say that I don't remember for certain, but that I am thinking he didn't.
I've always wondered why a knife. I'm thinking it's because he collected knives and was comfortable with knives, as we know from his video.

I would like to know if any of this seems to fit to you. Thanks!

terminatrixator
04-12-2006, 11:08 PM
IMHO it was totally 100% premeditated.

RainbowsAndGumdrops
06-13-2006, 10:49 AM
I can't help but go back to the basics in this case. Raven was the "boss" or so he thought. Janet was too smart to let him bring her down. She worked and tried to have a responsible family even with Raven's habits. The day of the murder, Janet worked, Raven sat around doing nothing, and Kaiden was sent to the babysitter (Raven, did you know how to change a diaper or feed Kaiden?). Janet comes home and they take her car to the shop. I believe she had the old car while Raven had all of his toys. Routine maintance would be expected. Then she is home taking care of Kaiden, gets him to bed while Raven goes to play soccer. We know the LE released a reward with a description of the car driven, so I am thinking Soccer was a legitimate alliby - or so Raven thinks. The problem isn't whether he played Soccer. The detectives are looking for details on where the car was once it left the soccer game. Did Raven drive slow, get stuck in traffic, or go to 7-11. If so, this may account for the 10 minutes in question. That would be the 10 minutes when Janet was killed. We are really not concerned with anything up until moments before Raven says he got home and found Janet.

So Raven's story is that he gets home and finds his wife injured, freaks out trying to find a phone, and calls 911. The problem with his story is that he went in to kiss Kaiden good night and yet on the 911 call Kaiden is screaming and Raven is told to calm the baby. Is it more likely that the baby wakes up when mommy is attacked or that he peacefully sleeps through that and wakes up right when Raven calls 911. Seems to me like Kaiden would have been awakened during the attack and would not have been sleeping soundly when Raven got home.

Ok, so I can find lots of problems with Raven's story, but I can't figure out exactly how he really did it.

Here is my new theory. Raven thought that he was the boss in the house and what he said goes. Janet came home after work and got Kaiden fed and put to bed perhaps by 7:30. (Isn't that when the home teachers came). Raven goes to play soccer leaving Janet at home. Raven comes home and he and Janet have a fight. Raven pulls out his buck knife that he always keeps on him "just in case" and stabs her to show her who is boss. He didn't intend to kill her but to let her know that he could and that whatever he says goes. Why do I say he didn't mean to kill her. He called 911 saying she was hurt, and at that point she was dying but not yet dead. Of course she was dead by the time that the ambulance got there. If he thought he killed her he would have waited to call until he could have fled...or one may think.

But even this scenario doesn't make sense. If he didn't mean to kill her, where did the laptop go. Ok, so they had the fight before the soccer game. He took the laptop with him because he didn't like her snooping into what he was doing and finding things like the adultery, embezzlement etc. Perhaps he found her looking at pregnancy sights and got mad. What ever it was, he didn't want her on the computer so he took it with him to the soccer game.

Still that doesn't explain why the computer didn't come home with him. It also doesn't explain why his precious VX was parked somewhere else so that police were not aware to search it.

Ok, so the Raven didn't do it story has holes, the Raven accidently did it or it wasn't premeditated story has holes. The only way to fill the holes is to conclude that Raven planned this. The VX and the computer were intentionally missing. I can't imagine any way to discard the computer within the few minutes between killing Janet and the police getting there. There must have been an advance plan created when he stashed those items.

I just don't get it Raven. Where and when did you stash the computer? Don't try to tell me it was a burgulary. Again, your story says that Kaiden slept through this and you kissed him to sleep. Yet on the 911 call Kaiden is freaking out in the crib. I don't buy any of your stories. I am just stumped by the computer. What did you do with it? I actually may be able to say this wasn't permeditated if you would have just been honest and said I got mad at her for reading about my love life. I didn't want her to know about all of my girlfriends. I was sick of her nagging me about it so I smashed up the computer. It is over here at xyz. Take a look. If you would have just worked with LE and been honest on that one detail I would be more likely to believe that your intent was to show her that you were capable of hurting her but that you didn't intend to kill her (well not that night anyway).

Why does the detail of the computer bother me so much??? I think the computer is the key to this case.

Jenifred
06-13-2006, 12:38 PM
Can anyone say how far away Kaiden's room was from the office where Janet was found?

Because, if what you say is true, R&G, about Kaiden screaming from his crib, there had to have been something going on that woke Kaiden up. Was Kaiden for sure in his crib when Raven called 911? Or could it have been that Raven was holding Kaiden after taking him out of his crib?

I don't know if I'm making something out of nothing, but personally my children don't wake up in the middle of the night for no reason. And it's very likely that they wouldn't be screaming in their beds or in my arms because they would have been so drowsy. Were Janet and Raven having a fight? Was screaming audible?

I guess I'm just throwing something out there so we can chew on it.

RainbowsAndGumdrops
06-13-2006, 12:57 PM
Where is the posting about the 911 call? Someone posted detail that the 911 operator told Raven to get the baby and comfort him. I wish I could listen to the 911 tape as this detail has always bothered me. Something woke up Kaiden yet Raven says Kaiden was sound asleep when he got home.

guera
06-13-2006, 02:15 PM
Another theory is that the VX and computer were stashed together... and that Raven got rid of any incriminating evidence (computer, possibly the murder weapon and/or any bloody clothes) before the police could search it. Which would lean me towards the premeditated side of this. My theory is that Raven had incriminating searches ("How to kill your wife"), financial information, emails, and/or anything else that might lend to premeditation, and thus he got rid of it. We know that LE searched his Gmail records, but my guess would be that Raven had more than one email address, and he could've hidden lots of incriminating things in the other email accounts, not to mention in his internet history and such. Whether he planned to kill her that day, or whether he had been planning it for months, I think he planned it for sure, and thus hid the incriminating information far away enough that he knew it would most likely not be searched. I also think that the VX/computer were long gone before the soccer game.

terminatrixator
06-13-2006, 04:06 PM
Where is the posting about the 911 call? Someone posted detail that the 911 operator told Raven to get the baby and comfort him. I wish I could listen to the 911 tape as this detail has always bothered me. Something woke up Kaiden yet Raven says Kaiden was sound asleep when he got home.
Raven also stated that Janet was warm, and he also stated to others, she was already dead and cold.

He stated he walked in and saw her on her knees, medics found her on her back.

Where's the lap top and where is his knife collection. If you look in the evidence there was no knife collection taken by LE. Did he indeed have a knife collection or just one knife?

I heard that there was money and jewelry sitting out and why was that not taken if a buglar did it....because THERE WAS NO BURGLAR.

R & G, I have thought this through so many times and gone through this the way you have and still come up empty when it comes to the how he got rid of things so quickly, unless they were gone to begin with and there was just a matter of getting rid of the knife. Where'd it go. Was he stripped searched, maybe he hid the knife up his hoo hoo for all i know.

The sick sad thing, is this was planned and premeditated. We all know anger, and Raven was in the hot seat, I can see him lashing out in anger, but this was not that...this was cold, calculated and premeditated.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
06-13-2006, 04:11 PM
does anyone know if they searched the residence right away? Or if they searched really GOOD? I mean with all the commotion that night with his wife dead, is it possible for him to stash it somewhere ON THE PROPERTY to remove it later?

LTUlegal
06-14-2006, 12:28 AM
I agree with you, R&G...the computer is a big key to this.
Consider this: Janet knew about the embezzlement, of course, after it all came out. She pleaded with raven to discontinue this behavior and wanted to make sure that he did. raven didn't want her to see that he was still continuing to sell the soccer equipment on the internet, so he made sure to take his laptop with him. I also think he didn't want her finding out what else he was doing on the internet.

ewwwinteresting
06-14-2006, 01:38 AM
R&G, you bring up some good points. What bothers me about this case is the TOD. To me, the TOD, on the autopsy report must not be all that accurate. raven was home at TOD (why isn't he arrested?). raven called 911 minutes from the time of the stabbing. Medics and LE arrive minutes after TOD. There was no time for raven to "hide" the knife (well enough for LE not to find it in a 24 hour search anyway), and there was no time for someone else to do and get out of the house. None of it makes sense to me.

OriginalJerseyGirl
06-14-2006, 10:14 AM
WARNING - SOMEWHAT GRAPHIC

The sick sad thing, is this was planned and premeditated. We all know anger, and Raven was in the hot seat, I can see him lashing out in anger, but this was not that...this was cold, calculated and premeditated.I totally agree. And in a stabbing that's the result of a crime of passion, we usually (but I'm sure not always) see more than two main stab wounds. In a crime of passion, the perpetrator often can't stop himself because of his anger, and commits "overkill".

I think that Raven called 911 when he did, (whether Janet was still alive or not), because he knew that her wounds were fatal. She was probably bleeding quickly, and he knew that by the time the medics arrived, she wouldn't have a chance. So he accomplished his goal of getting rid of her but also gave us this shred to ponder. He believed that if he called 911 so soon after the infliction of the wounds that there would be doubt about his guilt because what kind of murderer would call 911 if he really wanted her dead? He planned this very issue that we're discussing right now, IMO.

slinkycat
06-17-2006, 02:18 PM
I'm finding some logic in Rainbows & Gumdrops' posting about Raven not intending to kill Janet. Let's presume that in an emotional eruption of 'showing her who's boss', he whips out the Buck knife in a threatening display. She grapples with him, not thinking that he might actually stab her, and he gets caught up in the heat of the moment and intends to inflict some minor stab wounds on her hands and arms. His thinking is that this will solidify his position as the alpha male in their relationship and thenceforth, she'll totally submit to him out of fear. He intends to keep the wounds minor enough that they can be explained away at the emergency room as a landscaping or kitchen accident.

Whoops, he stabs a little too hard and she takes one in the chest. Still, he doesn't think it's a fatal wound and as he regains his composure and a sense of remorse sweeps over him. he decides that he'd better call 9-1-1. In the minutes before 9-1-1 arrives, however, Janet dies! Holy cow! He wasn't expecting that! So now what? The police/ambulance are inbound and he can't deny his presence, since he's the one who called them. Better make up a story about finding Janet already hurt when he arrived home. Yeah, they might just buy that.

In the heat of the moment, he realizes that the police will investigate a suspicious death and immediately realizes he needs to get rid of the computer. Remember that he had had his computer subjected to a police search the year before and he knew that there was incriminating information on the computer. What the incriminating information was, we can only speculate. Possibilities include 1) evidence of further embezzlement, 2) pornography, 3) digital trails of online conversations with other women, 4) research on life insurance, murder and disappearing.

I think that he grabbed the laptop and the Buck knife, threw them into the VX, and drove down the road a half mile or so and stashed them. He left the car down the road and jogged back to the house to await the arrival of the police. Total elapsed time: 3-5 minutes. When the police execute their search warrant, the knife and computer are gone, and they are unaware of the VX.

I think that in the next day or so, Raven went back to retrieve the VX, recovered the laptop and knife, and then drove somewhere far away and stashed them really good or destroyed them. Remember the car fire from a few years back? A laptop could pretty well be destroyed by a good fire. The knife? It would have to be stashed or tossed somewhere. If it were me, I would have found a high bridge over a deep body of water and tossed them out late at night while driving across when nobody would see.

Candidates for places Raven might have tossed the laptop and knife:

Falls Creek State Park [10 miles East of Durham]
13390 Creedmoor Rd
Wake Forest, NC

There are several bridges that cross Falls Lake:
I-85 at the NW corner of the lake
Cheek Rd at the middle of the lake
Creedmore Rd at the SW corner of the lake

Jordan Lake State Recreation Area
280 State Park Road
Apex, NC 27523

There are several bridges that cross Jordan Lake:
Rt 64 at the middle
Beaver Creek Rd in the South
Farrington Rd in the North

Raven Rock State Park [62 miles South of Durham]
3009 Raven Rock Road
Lillington, NC 27546

My thinking is that with Raven's ego and narcissistic personality, he almost certainly visited Raven Rock State Park at least once just because of the name. He might have discovered a perfect place to permanently bury the laptop and knife.

Shearon Harris Reservoir [44 miles South of Durham]
New Hill, NC
New Hill Holleman Rd cross the lake in the NE corner

My thinking is the LE has a pretty good mental roster of ideal 'dump' sites in the Raleigh-Durham area, but that there is a time/resource cost to search these areas. They're not going to expend the time/money/energy to search all of them unless there is a credible lead, or unless it's a high-profile or media-ratings-driven case (rich people or public personalities involved, Duke lacrosse players, etc.)

terminatrixator
06-17-2006, 04:39 PM
I'm finding some logic in Rainbows & Gumdrops' posting about Raven not intending to kill Janet. Let's presume that in an emotional eruption of 'showing her who's boss', he whips out the Buck knife in a threatening display. She grapples with him, not thinking that he might actually stab her, and he gets caught up in the heat of the moment and intends to inflict some minor stab wounds on her hands and arms. His thinking is that this will solidify his position as the alpha male in their relationship and thenceforth, she'll totally submit to him out of fear....snipped
I think your scenerio sounds quite plausible, except for the fact that I believe there was indeed premeditation.

First of all, there was no sign of a struggle, Janet was caught off-guard. He stabbed her once, caught her by surprise, she put up her hand, he slashed her finger, she was already dying, he stabbed her again for good measure.

Raven is a plotter, a planner and very organized when it comes to what he wants. He is a definite thinker and though known for his outbursts during soccer games, he goes into the game with the knowledge he is going to be brutal, taunting, etc.

Why is the laptop missing? When he was arrested in the past, his laptop was searched because of the embezzlement. Raven was known to be into the Franklin Covey Planning. He plotted, he planned, he timed this out in his head. Not only was his "buck knife" missing, his other knife collection was not mentioned in the police report as being taken, so therefore, he got rid of that, hid it, sent it to Mommy Dearest previously in advance.

I believe his vx was moved in advance of the murder, because like Scott Peterson, it's a personal belonging and the thought of police pawing through it was too much for him to bear. He has been through the process of being investigated by LE....just 4 short months previously. He knows the route, he knows his laptop will be taken. Not only that, if Janet is out of the way, he can try to pin the embezzlement on her. I believe if we investigated further and we could get a copy of the records, he may have tried.

He also knew he had an alibi up to the point the hometeachers left, and an alibi of the soccer game. I believe there is more room to mess with in the TOD, but how much I don't know, but I do know it is not an exact science and I believe even another 5 minutes can make a difference - EITHER WAY.

He stated she was hurt, he stated she was shot, he stated she was warm, he also stated she was cold. These are HUGE discrepancies, one of someone who is hiding information. He actually told people "his wife died" he told people she "committed suicide" and we all know what a liar he is. Why would a husband even insinuate or try to make people think she committed suicide when he knew SHE WAS MURDERED? What is there to gain by this? Putting blame on Janet? What kind of Monster is he? Obviously a very cruel one.

I believe fully that he was once again dating at the time of the murder and living the single life. I believe he started premeditating when he got the insurance policy, which we don't know for a fact that there was one, but I will bet you my last penny there was one.

I believe he knew Janet was pregnant, probably for a day or two and his plans in earnest began. Why do I think that he knew she was pregnant. Raven is quoted as saying that he first saw Janet on her knees as she had been known to do in the past when she had her period. This establishes the fact that she could indeed have her period, when in fact he knew she could not have her period, because she was pregnant. It is a faux paus in a way, because it also goes towards his way of thinking, a premeditation. Her being on her knees brings to light another thing, he states he found her on her knees, yet she was found by medics/LE on her back, which takes into consideration of him moving her and transfer of blood on him.

Janet was probably fed up with his attitude regarding the pregnancy and very depressed about it. I believe Janet was besides herself with embarrassment over his embezzlement, I believe Janet may have realized he was cheating AGAIN, and may have stated something to the fact that she was planning on leaving.

The places to drop off the laptop and the bucknife do sound very plausible, and I really do not believe in any way, shape or form, this was an act of anger, an outburst a manic episode. If it was, his guilt would have gotten the best of him, he would have eventually confessed because someone that has that kind of outburst, would eventually confess because of guilt.

Raven does not own guilt, Raven does not have a conscience. Someone with a conscience would have an angry outburst, for sure, but more mistakes would have been made. He would NOT be able to switch so readily from raging murderer to grieving husband in a matter of minutes unless there was premeditation there. He would have fallen in interrogation had he not thought all this out.

All above is pure speculation and my opinion from looking deep into similar crimes, but if any part of my speculation is wrong, I believe with all my heart that premeditation is the one part that is dead on.

caffeinatd
06-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Wasn't there information that the VX was for sale on Hillsborough St? I think that he stashed the knife and the computer somewhere in the house, or on the property, or, he had the laptop with him when he went to the soccer game, and dropped it somewhere and then picked it up. If that was the case, he could have put a knife anywhere, in the dog house, the dog run, the diaper bag..many places they would not have thought to look JMO

Moxie
06-17-2006, 08:42 PM
Wasn't there information that the VX was for sale on Hillsborough St? I think that he stashed the knife and the computer somewhere in the house, or on the property, or, he had the laptop with him when he went to the soccer game, and dropped it somewhere and then picked it up. If that was the case, he could have put a knife anywhere, in the dog house, the dog run, the diaper bag..many places they would not have thought to look JMO
You raise a good point about the dogs. If a stranger had broken into the house, wouldn't they have barked and alerted Janet?

I believe that Janet would have fought like h*ll if an intruder had broken into the house. We are talking about a soccer All-American here - she was strong. So the fact that she did not put up much of a battle says to me there was no intruder, that she knew her attacker and her attacker took her by surprise.

I vote 100% premeditated. Raven planned this out and wanted Janet gone.

So how's that working out for you Rave?

Since Janet's death you are:

*On welfare
*A convicted Felon
*Bankrupt
*Exposed as a failure for the entire world to see

Real bad plan you had, killing your wife and all. Janet's death did not solve any of your problems. Why is that?

Because YOU are your problem.

terminatrixator
06-17-2006, 11:39 PM
You raise a good point about the dogs. If a stranger had broken into the house, wouldn't they have barked and alerted Janet?

I believe that Janet would have fought like h*ll if an intruder had broken into the house. We are talking about a soccer All-American here - she was strong. So the fact that she did not put up much of a battle says to me there was no intruder, that she knew her attacker and her attacker took her by surprise.

I vote 100% premeditated. Raven planned this out and wanted Janet gone.

So how's that working out for you Rave?

Since Janet's death you are:

*On welfare
*A convicted Felon
*Bankrupt
*Exposed as a failure for the entire world to see

Real bad plan you had, killing your wife and all. Janet's death did not solve any of your problems. Why is that?

Because YOU are your problem.
I believe that the VX has been sold, but to whom, and is it a front, I don't know.

Raven has always been and will always be a failure. The only thing that he had going for him is Janet and Kaiden, and now that Janet is gone, all he has is Kaiden. He's a for crap father and should win the worst father of the year award. He kills his child's mother, the child his wife was carrying and will be damned for all eternity for it.

He's a complete and utter loser and will always be, and I can't wait until he's wearing orange.

lauriej
06-18-2006, 01:26 AM
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I went to the crime scene today. It was raining, slightly, so I was a bit rushed in moving about the site. I got an eerie feeling as I approached the house. It is indeed sheltered from the road - completely. There was no indication that a crime had taken place there - no crime scene tape or anything. As I walked up the gravel driveway, I observed the creek, which is actually just a big ditch with moving water. I tried to take different shots of it, though again, I was rushed because of the rain. There's a dismantled desk in the driveway, which I included in the photos posted below. This may very well be remnants of the one that was in the office. I kept my distance, for some reason. There are several trees, as you can see in the pictures, which appear to be marked for removal. Perhaps the owner is doing this to improve the view and security of the home. The back yard is fenced, and I didn't enter it. There was a storage shed in the back yard, which I photo'd, though I didn't include it - didn't feel it was relevant. I saw the infamous side door and included a shot of it. I also climbed the steps of the front porch to find a pair of soccer shoes, which may be Janet's. They appear to be feminine in style. I peered through the windows to see that carpet had been ripped from the stairs - perhaps the entire house. The home was completely empty. It was apparent that no one is living there. There was a large trashcan outside, though I didn't think to open it. I also wanted to open the mailbox, but I really didn't want to tamper with federal property. This was a virgin experience for me. I hope the pictures provide some visualization. Thanks Golfmom for letting me use your photobucket account! Sorry these aren't in sequence. It would probably tell a better story. I took multiple photos of the creek/ditch because of our indepth discussion of the murderer cleaning up there. From my viewing of the scene, it wouldn't have been my first choice of places to clean up.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0014.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0014.jpg)
View of the stairs from the front porch - carpet has been stripped

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0020.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0020.jpg)
Their mailbox on the opposite side of the street

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0019.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0019.jpg)
A view of the creek/ditch

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0018.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0018.jpg)
Another view of the creek/ditch

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0017.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0017.jpg)
Looking down the driveway from the front of the house

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0015.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0015.jpg)
Soccer shoes on the front porch - possibly Janet's?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0010.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0010.jpg)
The infamous side door

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0008.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0008.jpg)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0009.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0009.jpg)
A dismantled desk - possibly the one from the office upstairs

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0007.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0007.jpg)
View of the front of the house

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0006.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0006.jpg)
Part of the driveway in front of the house

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0005.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0005.jpg)
Walking up the driveway towards the house

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0004.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0004.jpg)
Another view of the creek/ditch

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0003.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0003.jpg)
Another view of the creek/ditch

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0002.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0002.jpg)
Still receiving the paper

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...om/snap0001.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/snap0001.jpg)
View of the driveway from the road. Eerie.

...................this was posted last june 1, 2005, after a WS'er went on a "road trip" and took pics of the crime scene up close and personal..

...the driveway, yard, and back creek area are SO heavily wooded i would think raven could easily hide a ton of stuff temporarily at least, to retrieve later on.........( how closely DID LE search the entire property??)

...and i believe this was 100% totally pre-meditated------------raven is the type to need constant attention, his one child was already taking some of that away from him------------to find their was another baby on the way would definitely threaten him in a huge way--------plus he would know that his "wanna-be big spender" image would never stand a chance with a wife and TWO kids to support.....
...(however could he embezzle enough each month to survive??)

OriginalJerseyGirl
06-18-2006, 08:33 AM
Considering how soon a trust fund was established and how soon Raven was out biking, etc., there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that this was premeditated. And the date of the bankruptcy really, really bugs me. IMO, if he was not the murderer and he was in mourning over the loss of his wife, there's NO WAY that he would mark the first anniversary of her death by declaring bankruptcy on that date. He would have kept that date practically sacred. To me, declaring bankruptcy on that date was almost like a slap in the face.

I don't think that a crime of passion would still be "unsolved" all of this time later. In a crime of passion, there would be more smoking gun type evidence. JMO.

terminatrixator
06-18-2006, 02:08 PM
Considering how soon a trust fund was established and how soon Raven was out biking, etc., there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that this was premeditated. And the date of the bankruptcy really, really bugs me. IMO, if he was not the murderer and he was in mourning over the loss of his wife, there's NO WAY that he would mark the first anniversary of her death by declaring bankruptcy on that date. He would have kept that date practically sacred. To me, declaring bankruptcy on that date was almost like a slap in the face.

I don't think that a crime of passion would still be "unsolved" all of this time later. In a crime of passion, there would be more smoking gun type evidence. JMO.
JG - that is the real kicker, the slap in the face. He had nothing better to do on the one year anniversary but to MARK IT WITH BANKRUPTCY.

He had plenty of knowledge regarding the Candlelight Vigil. My guess is he probably balked at it, not having enough money to go, or not enough time or something totally full of crap for reasoning not to go to the vigil. Yet, he was able to make it away to another bike trip and another one coming up.

He could have been on the road that day, coming out to Janet's vigil, going to visit Janet's gravesite, but he opted to go to his attorney's office and sign bankruptcy papers. That's a slap in the face to Janet, her unborn child, Kaiden and the Christiansen's and a big middle finger to LE, in my opinion.

HE is a complete and utter sociopath.

lauriej
06-20-2006, 02:52 AM
..i checked ( the cheapest form of travel) from utah to NC...greyhound bus:

PurchaseFare Type http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gif (javascript: OpenHelp('#faretype'))QtyPassenger http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gif (javascript: OpenHelp('#passenger');)EachTotal http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gif (javascript: OpenHelp('#total');) Special (javascript: newWindow = openWin( 'Restrictions.asp?Restrictions=C%252520', 'help', 'width=600,height=300,toolbar=0,location=0,directo ries=0,status=0,menuBar=0,scrollBars=1,resizable=0 ' ); newWindow.focus()) 1
Adult
$372.00
$372.00
.........return fare, raven COULD have attended the vigil for less than $400.........

..but didn't..

..instead he DOES come up with the fee for the "look-at-me-i'm-such-a-stud" triathalon? marathon? ( whatever it is.) POST bankruptcy??

..thanks for letting ( your future jury) see just where your priorities lie raven......

terminatrixator
06-20-2006, 08:40 AM
..i checked ( the cheapest form of travel) from utah to NC...greyhound bus:

PurchaseFare Type [/url]http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gifQtyPassenger (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:%20OpenHelp%28%27#faretype%27%29)http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gifEachTotal http://www.greyhound.com/images/TicketCenter/help_grey.gif [url="http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:%20newWindow%20=%20openWin%28%20%27Restrictio ns.asp?Restrictions=C%252520%27,%20%27help%27,%20% 27width=600,height=300,toolbar=0,location=0,direct ories=0,status=0,menuBar=0,scrollBars=1,resizable= 0%27%20%29;%20newWindow.focus%28%29"]Special (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:%20OpenHelp%28%27#total%27%29;) 1
Adult
$372.00
$372.00
.........return fare, raven COULD have attended the vigil for less than $400.........

..but didn't..

..instead he DOES come up with the fee for the "look-at-me-i'm-such-a-stud" triathalon? marathon? ( whatever it is.) POST bankruptcy??

..thanks for letting ( your future jury) see just where your priorities lie raven......
At the time of the vigil, I checked airfare and found airfare for less than 300 bucks round trip from San Diego to Raleigh. I checked just a week before the vigil.

Summer rates are higher than in the spring. I think I checked tickets at the time also from SLC to Raleigh a few weeks prior to the vigil and found good rates for less than 260.00. He had places to stay out there too - since he knew so many people, so he wouldn't have to pay for lodging....

Clearly Confused
06-20-2006, 10:11 AM
It could have cost $1.00 and he still wouldn't have showed up. He is a coward!

BirdHunter
06-20-2006, 07:15 PM
At the time of the vigil, I checked airfare and found airfare for less than 300 bucks round trip from San Diego to Raleigh. I checked just a week before the vigil.

Summer rates are higher than in the spring. I think I checked tickets at the time also from SLC to Raleigh a few weeks prior to the vigil and found good rates for less than 260.00. He had places to stay out there too - since he knew so many people, so he wouldn't have to pay for lodging....Sure the Durham PD would have put him up for nothing!