"Drug Involvement"

[Liz]

The 'Dylan and Shasta' thread has drifted off topic into the possibility of drug involvement and into things to look for. It just happened naturally, not complaining here. Just trying to follow the rules. :p

If anyone would like to move their posts, that are mainly about the drug aspect(s) of the case, and of personal relevance over here or just post here if it pertains to 'drugs' - that would be great! ;) Thanks!

And, if someone can come up with a more appropriate topic for this thread, that'd be great too! :)

[SauerKraut]

The 'Dylan and Shasta' thread has drifted off topic into the possibility of drug involvement and into things to look for. It just happened naturally, not complaining here. Just trying to follow the rules. :p

If anyone would like to move their posts, that are mainly about the drug aspect(s) of the case, and of personal relevance over here or just post here if it pertains to 'drugs' - that would be great! ;) Thanks!

And, if someone can come up with a more appropriate topic for this thread, that'd be great too! :)

Can't think of anything. I've been glued to websleuths but nothing seems to be happening with the case the past couple days. Will be interesting if any new leads come about from the "campers be on the lookout" weekend.

[Liz]

So funny you say that, the neighbors behind me are the "known neighborhood dealers" and I always try to look the other way if I see them. They are scrungy and act all nervous and jittery and we have called the police several times for their "customers" that come block our driveway. The police have told me they are "small time" and they have bigger fish to fry. Nice. I think I may just let them park there from now on.


Gosh Sauerkraut, that must be so frustrating for you! I think I sense you may be feeling a bit intimidated by your creepy neighbors; and can't say that I blame you. I think you need to go higher up the ladder and tell them that what your tax dollars pay them for. And, that IF they would start frying more of the small fish - sooner or later they'll lead them to the big fish!! (IMO!)

ETA: Sauerkraut, the investigators are expecting some of the evidence results to start coming in, at any time now, so that should hopefully get things popping.

[Yeah,me]

They're not going to release the results of the DNA tests until the kids are found. If they do, the kids will be in danger.

[Rle7]

Groene's oldest son, Vance, 20, who also took an FBI polygraph test, said on the same program that he was close to his mother and was aware of mounting tension in the household -- one of the reasons he recently moved away.

Vance Groene said his mother was worried that McKenzie, who lived with her, was drifting away.

The son said the couple used the illegal drug crystal methamphetamine.

He said he believed his mother's drug use had increased in the past year and it was no longer an occasional recreational habit.

Kootenai County coroner Dr. Robert West said last week that a preliminary toxicology report showed the presence of "illicit drugs" in the two adults, but not in the teen. West did not say what drugs were found.

"I get the impression that the last couple of weeks, stuff was getting a little more stressful and a little harder to deal with," Vance Groene said.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/idaho.children/index.html?section=cnn_latest

If Vance did not do this crime, he has no reason to lie about this now.

[Wayne]

The CNN article today at this link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/idaho.children/index.html) includes the caption under image of the house:
Investigators said they found evidence in every room of the house.
Plus the text:
Groene's oldest son, Vance, 20, who also took an FBI polygraph test, said on the same program that he was close to his mother and was aware of mounting tension in the household -- one of the reasons he recently moved away.

Vance Groene said his mother was worried that McKenzie, who lived with her, was drifting away.

The son said the couple used the illegal drug crystal methamphetamine.

He said he believed his mother's drug use had increased in the past year and it was no longer an occasional recreational habit.

Kootenai County coroner Dr. Robert West said last week that a preliminary toxicology report showed the presence of "illicit drugs" in the two adults, but not in the teen. West did not say what drugs were found.

"I get the impression that the last couple of weeks, stuff was getting a little more stressful and a little harder to deal with," Vance Groene said.
The fact LE found evidence in every room of the house is important. Based on what I have read thus far, IMO, this is sounding like the perp(s) were looking through the house for some evidence or something that perhaps the son facing sentencing had hidden. (Perhaps a diary or photographs or note or something linking the perp(s) to the family.) The perp(s) may have located what they were looking for and took it with them, killing the three as a signal to others in the family to "keep quiet."

[Wayne]

I have never heard of crystal methamphetamine. I looked it up and I found this US Department of Justice website with a Q & A on crystal methamphetamine ... THE LINK (http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5049/).

Just thought I'd share it here.

[JerseyGirl]

The CNN article today at this link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/idaho.children/index.html) includes the caption under image of the house:

Plus the text:

The fact LE found evidence in every room of the house is important. Based on what I have read thus far, IMO, this is sounding like the perp(s) were looking through the house for some evidence or something that perhaps the son facing sentencing had hidden. (Perhaps a diary or photographs or note or something linking the perp(s) to the family.) The perp(s) may have located what they were looking for and took it with them, killing the three as a signal to others in the family to "keep quiet."
This sounds possible especially considering the fact that the judge that released Jesse so that he could attend the memorial service was strongly suggesting that they hire security for the event. He said that he was not acting on any threat but that he was concerned about Jesse, (or something along those lines).

[Gracelin]

Drug user usually hang with drug user, It is rural small town so all or most the druggies hang together ,They are friends they have been friends for years, they have kids and their kids hang out when they are together The kids may have sleep overs or camp out overnight at each others houses,As a group they have barbecues, go fishing, hunting, work on each others cars. just like straight people do, except they get high together.The kids are like there own, They spend so much time with them.They mind them and call them Uncle or Aunt. maybe they are even god parents
Who ever did this knows this family and the children.

Whats missing has got to be right in front of our faces, I think killers are in plain sight...
Still praying for the children..

[close_enough]

Drug user usually hang with drug user, It is rural small town so all or most the druggies hang together ,They are friends they have been friends for years, they have kids and their kids hang out when they are together The kids may have sleep overs or camp out overnight at each others houses,As a group they have barbecues, go fishing, hunting, work on each others cars. just like straight people do, except they get high together.The kids are like there own, They spend so much time with them.They mind them and call them Uncle or Aunt. maybe they are even god parents
Who ever did this knows this family and the children.

Whats missing has got to be right in front of our faces, I think killers are in plain sight...
Still praying for the children..

this post gave me chill bumps....

[close_enough]

This sounds possible especially considering the fact that the judge that released Jesse so that he could attend the memorial service was strongly suggesting that they hire security for the event. He said that he was not acting on any threat but that he was concerned about Jesse, (or something along those lines).

i would think that any time a prisoner is allowed to go to functions/funerals, there would be security....

[Lili]

Susan Drumheller (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/bylines.asp?bylinename=Susan%20Drumheller)
Staff writer
May 27, 2005
".......Autopsy results showed that the adult homicide victims had marijuana and methamphetamine in their systems, Dr. Robert West, the Kootenai County coroner, confirmed Thursday. Results are pending on the amount of drugs they took and the times of death...."
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=71855

[close_enough]

Susan Drumheller (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/bylines.asp?bylinename=Susan%20Drumheller)
Staff writer
May 27, 2005
".......Autopsy results showed that the adult homicide victims had marijuana and methamphetamine in their systems, Dr. Robert West, the Kootenai County coroner, confirmed Thursday. Results are pending on the amount of drugs they took and the times of death...."
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=71855

this murder was all about crystal meth...i knew it was, when i first heard about the drugs, & then Vance moving out.....i know that pot can stay in the system, attached to your fat, for up to 60 days, depending on some other factors....meth is washed out of the system fairly fast...i THINK i read 3 days or so...these folks were getting high that sunday...."someone" wanted the meth, or money...

thanks Lili...i was fixing to post something about, maybe the kids were killed outside...i have this nagging feeling about how the kids were taken alive, out of the house...what if Shasta & Dylan were outside, & grabbed out there..tied up, killed, & put in a vehicle...they wouldn't want the kids "in the way" for what they were about to do, inside the house......could it be that LE is putting a false/rumor out, as a way to lure the killers???....

edited...correction; wrong name

[close_enough]

Susan Drumheller (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/bylines.asp?bylinename=Susan%20Drumheller)
Staff writer
May 27, 2005
".......Autopsy results showed that the adult homicide victims had marijuana and methamphetamine in their systems, Dr. Robert West, the Kootenai County coroner, confirmed Thursday. Results are pending on the amount of drugs they took and the times of death...."
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=71855

is this the first time this has been posted???...how did i miss it??..last i read, LE hadn't released "what drugs"....again, good find

[Lili]

I feel quite sure there must be bloody prints of small feet, shoes, hands or something that indicates the children were in the house.

I had hoped for a while that they had hidden under a bed or something and ran after the murders, but since they haven't turned up it doesn't look that way. I just pray they find those little ones soon.

[close_enough]

I feel quite sure there must be bloody prints of small feet, shoes, hands or something that indicates the children were in the house.

I had hoped for a while that they had hidden under a bed or something and ran after the murders, but since they haven't turned up it doesn't look that way. I just pray they find those little ones soon.

you're probably right...i just keep thinking of all kinds of things...i'm hoping we hear something else today...i'm off work, & have all my chores caught up...well, almost...
woke up thinking about this, w/my coffee......thanks for the great articles..

[Lili]

Well I am sitting here at work, and just realized that we have patients coming this afternoon! :eek: As I sit here on WS and surfing for news clips! :D Guess I better get busy! :doh:

[JerseyGirl]

i would think that any time a prisoner is allowed to go to functions/funerals, there would be security....LE said that they were not going to provide security because then Jesse wouldn't be allowed to touch his family members. But the judge strongly advised them to hire outside security, saying that he worried about Jesse's safety. You might be right about it being customary ... I don't know.

[JerseyGirl]

...could it be that LE is putting a false/rumor out, as a way to lure the killers???....I'm sure that LE often puts out false statements and "facts" for a variety of reasons. In this case, however, I'm not sure how putting out the rumor that the kids might still be alive would lure the killers. The killers would know that the kids aren't alive if they had actually killed them so I'm not sure why they would come forward. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement?

I find it interesting that in the article linked above, it states:

Investigators have not said whether they have the weapon used to kill the three victims or what that weapon is.

We were all discussing this the other day - couldn't figure out if LE had the murder weapon or not. I guess this non-answer is our answer. :rolleyes:

[close_enough]

I'm sure that LE often puts out false statements and "facts" for a variety of reasons. In this case, however, I'm not sure how putting out the rumor that the kids might still be alive would lure the killers. The killers would know that the kids aren't alive if they had actually killed them so I'm not sure why they would come forward. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement?

I find it interesting that in the article linked above, it states:

Investigators have not said whether they have the weapon used to kill the three victims or what that weapon is.

We were all discussing this the other day - couldn't figure out if LE had the murder weapon or not. I guess this non-answer is our answer. :rolleyes:

lol, well i'm not sure what my statement meant either...thinking aloud while typing, pretty much :crazy:

LE knows what the weapon was, by now..or a very good idea, if they haven't found it ....the medical examiner would shed light on that, wouldn't they?.....seems the killers would have taken the weapon w/them, imo...unless they had gloves on....

[JerseyGirl]

lol, well i'm not sure what my statement meant either...thinking aloud while typing, pretty much :crazy:
LOL! :)

LE knows what the weapon was, by now..or a very good idea, if they haven't found it ....the medical examiner would shed light on that, wouldn't they?.....seems the killers would have taken the weapon w/them, imo...unless they had gloves on....
I believe that LE has alluded to the fact that they do, indeed, know what type of instrument was used to commit the crimes. But a few days ago, they were at least giving the impression that the murder weapon wasn't found in the house, and that that was one of the things they'd be looking for in the landfill. Now I'm getting the impression that they might already have the weapon. Back and forth, back and forth ... :banghead:

[close_enough]

LOL! :)


I believe that LE has alluded to the fact that they do, indeed, know what type of instrument was used to commit the crimes. But a few days ago, they were at least giving the impression that the murder weapon wasn't found in the house, and that that was one of the things they'd be looking for in the landfill. Now I'm getting the impression that they might already have the weapon. Back and forth, back and forth ... :banghead:

yes!!...i remember reading, a spokesperson saying, regarding the landfill..search for evidence..."weapon" was used in the article....then i bet they don't have the weapon/weapons.....that's my guess, anyway..

wish we'd hear some :( thing new

[close_enough]

this murder was all about crystal meth...i knew it was, when i first heard about the drugs, & then Vance moving out.....i know that pot can stay in the system, attached to your fat, for up to 60 days, depending on some other factors....meth is washed out of the system fairly fast...i THINK i read 3 days or so...these folks were getting high that sunday...."someone" wanted the meth, or money...

thanks Lili...i was fixing to post something about, maybe the kids were killed outside...i have this nagging feeling about how the kids were taken alive, out of the house...what if Shasta & Dylan were outside, & grabbed out there..tied up, killed, & put in a vehicle...they wouldn't want the kids "in the way" for what they were about to do, inside the house......could it be that LE is putting a false/rumor out, as a way to lure the killers???....

edited...correction; wrong name

while i was editing, i was thinking.....didn't someone post a thing about how long different drugs stay in a person's system??....i have a book, "Drug Testing at Work...a Guide for Employers & Employees"....it only mentions methamphetamine as a synthetic illicit drug...doesn't show the "hours/days" that it stays in the system, as far as blood/urine...i thought that was odd..the book was published in 1990..it does mention that it's a "poor man's cocaine"......

[Tom'sGirl]

while i was editing, i was thinking.....didn't someone post a thing about how long different drugs stay in a person's system??....i have a book, "Drug Testing at Work...a Guide for Employers & Employees"....it only mentions methamphetamine as a synthetic illicit drug...doesn't show the "hours/days" that it stays in the system, as far as blood/urine...i thought that was odd..the book was published in 1990..it does mention that it's a "poor man's cocaine"......
Yes, it was posted by Beyond Belief on another thread post #326

Marijuana (Cannabis)Single use3-5 days
Moderate use (3 times per week) 8-12 days
Heavy use (daily)21-30+ days
CocaineAny level of use 2-3 days
OpiatesAny level of use 2 days
PCP (Phencyclidine )Any level of use3 - 8 days
AMP's (Amphetamines) Any level of use2 - 4 days
EcstasyAny level of use3 - 5 days

[close_enough]

Yes, it was posted by Beyond Belief on another thread post #326

Marijuana (Cannabis)Single use3-5 days
Moderate use (3 times per week) 8-12 days
Heavy use (daily)21-30+ days
CocaineAny level of use 2-3 days
OpiatesAny level of use 2 days
PCP (Phencyclidine )Any level of use3 - 8 days
AMP's (Amphetamines) Any level of use2 - 4 days
EcstasyAny level of use3 - 5 days

thank you!!!... :)
so amphetamines & cocaine, are both, in the 3 or so days range....i thought i had read that here, but had given up on searching for it...

[Nchadwickaz]

Drug user usually hang with drug user, It is rural small town so all or most the druggies hang together ,They are friends they have been friends for years, they have kids and their kids hang out when they are together The kids may have sleep overs or camp out overnight at each others houses,As a group they have barbecues, go fishing, hunting, work on each others cars. just like straight people do, except they get high together.The kids are like there own, They spend so much time with them.They mind them and call them Uncle or Aunt. maybe they are even god parents
Who ever did this knows this family and the children.

Whats missing has got to be right in front of our faces, I think killers are in plain sight...
Still praying for the children..
I could not agree w/ you more on that post..From growing up as a child in that environment -- that is sooo true....

Not sure who in another thread referenced Ann Rules thoughts on this -- but also hit very close to home -- was that the people involved (or person) lives by an entirly different set of values.... or someone to that effect..... This is also an accurate observation --

If in fact drug related, the "issue" or "wronged by" was done by the ones that were murdered (I'll explain my opinion on Slade's death).... but made sure the younger to were moved (for what reason? -- could not "justify" since they did not "wrong" them)..

In my opinion, these kids could have, especially w/ someone that they knew - have been taken out of their before this happen (moments -- especially since this was probably planned) but it would have been harder to get a 13 yr. old to leave (especially if he knew that his mother was in danger). It is really sad, in that lifestyle kids grow up pretty quickly -- actually very sad)

I really have hope and feel that these children are still alive -- Someone made sure that they were not murdered -- it's weird -- these people (in that lifestyle) life by a different set of "rules" like posted before they live normal close lives but definaltly play by different "rules" -- I believe that this is someone that they family knew pretty well, and someone that has watched these children grow up and cares for them (enough to spare their lives) -- I don't believe that the person/s responsible are in possession of the children -- but I do think that they are somewhere until they can figure out how to get out of this mess.

These are criminals, they do not want to be caught -- this is what most have gotten very good at dodging most of their lives -- but how do they somehow get these kids back to their dad -- without turning themselves in or taking the chance of someone else folding in and giving them up under pressure....

Sorry, I am rambling -- I really feel for those children and hope soon the are found safe.

[joanofarc]

I really have hope and feel that these children are still alive -- Someone made sure that they were not murdered -- it's weird -- these people (in that lifestyle) life by a different set of "rules" like posted before they live normal close lives but definaltly play by different "rules" -- I believe that this is someone that they family knew pretty well, and someone that has watched these children grow up and cares for them (enough to spare their lives) -- I don't believe that the person/s responsible are in possession of the children -- but I do think that they are somewhere until they can figure out how to get out of this mess.
This is what I think too Nchadwickaz.....but the only thing that stops that theory is Slade....why would they kill Slade and not the other two....I wonder if Slade is Steve's biological child or if Brenda had him before she married Steve....anyone know??

I think I read Brenda and Steve were together 12 years...she had been living with Mark for about 6 years...so that is 18 years all together....Brenda would have been around 22 years old when she hooked up with Steve....Slade's 13 years would have made Brenda 27 when Slade was born and would have been around the time that she & Steve were together....I think I answered my own question.....LOL

[Gracelin]

I could not agree w/ you more on that post..From growing up as a child in that environment -- that is sooo true....

Not sure who in another thread referenced Ann Rules thoughts on this -- but also hit very close to home -- was that the people involved (or person) lives by an entirly different set of values.... or someone to that effect..... This is also an accurate observation --

If in fact drug related, the "issue" or "wronged by" was done by the ones that were murdered (I'll explain my opinion on Slade's death).... but made sure the younger to were moved (for what reason? -- could not "justify" since they did not "wrong" them)..

In my opinion, these kids could have, especially w/ someone that they knew - have been taken out of their before this happen (moments -- especially since this was probably planned) but it would have been harder to get a 13 yr. old to leave (especially if he knew that his mother was in danger). It is really sad, in that lifestyle kids grow up pretty quickly -- actually very sad)

I really have hope and feel that these children are still alive -- Someone made sure that they were not murdered -- it's weird -- these people (in that lifestyle) life by a different set of "rules" like posted before they live normal close lives but definaltly play by different "rules" -- I believe that this is someone that they family knew pretty well, and someone that has watched these children grow up and cares for them (enough to spare their lives) -- I don't believe that the person/s responsible are in possession of the children -- but I do think that they are somewhere until they can figure out how to get out of this mess.

These are criminals, they do not want to be caught -- this is what most have gotten very good at dodging most of their lives -- but how do they somehow get these kids back to their dad -- without turning themselves in or taking the chance of someone else folding in and giving them up under pressure....

Sorry, I am rambling -- I really feel for those children and hope soon the are found safe.Yes, You do know what I mean, I was involved with a group such as decribed for a number of years, and the children really do attach themselves to the parents of the other children, expecially if the other parent is more into the developement of their own kids,
Not all drug users are murdering junkies.
They are everyday people who stick in close circles, as fear of arrest is their biggest fear,The funny think in our circle most were on meth as a crutch to stay away from drinking and were coffe lovers, drinking only made for tickets and lost licences.
I some how don't think they give a damm about what the father wants, If the children are still alive and with them they intend to keep them that way, as a warped sort of loyality towards what the mother may have wanted.

[Nchadwickaz]

I some how don't think they give a damm about what the father wants, If the children are still alive and with them they intend to keep them that way, as a warped sort of loyality towards what the mother may have wanted.
I do agree with you -- however, I don't think that anyone probably wants to be caught w/ those children in their possession at this point -- there is way to much media attention -- that either way that person would possibly either have to take the fall for all or give up how they or who they got the children from -- this is someone within that circle that people (and probably rightly so) are scared of -- that is why no one wants to come forward as to the gathering, etc.

But if these people were going to kill these kids -- they would have done it... I believe that they owed someone something -- probably didn't bet on the outcome -- but could have possibly gotten the children out of there themselves -- Slade was old enough to observe stuff like this going down, I am sure no on in the house expected what happen was about to occur -- but I know growing up in that environment (especially as a teen) that if I felt that someone that I loved was possible in danger I would not have left either..... But at the age of the younger two I wouldn't have thought anything of someone close to the family coming by and taking us or my parents dropping us off w/ someone that they trusted for long periods of time.

But I do agree w/ that sense of loyalty to the mother.... There are many in that town that have a good idea of who may or not have these children or committed this crime -- Hopefully the Sheriff's Office is taking their time and following the inconsistanties of each of the people there on Sunday -- that is how this will break -- too many people, scared of saying the wrong thing -- but not sure how much to say... not sure if that makes sense....

[Nchadwickaz]

Brenda "Bones" Groene, 40


Is that the first time in the obit. that Brenda Groene was referred to by "bones" -- does anyone have any information to the nickname -- sounds like a possible street name? Odd.

[JerseyGirl]

... it would have been harder to get a 13 yr. old to leave ...... and even harder to make him stay once he was taken. It's physically much harder to control a teenager than a child, in most cases. So I can definitely see what you're saying about why he was not taken out of the house with the other kids.

[close_enough]

Brenda "Bones" Groene, 40


Is that the first time in the obit. that Brenda Groene was referred to by "bones" -- does anyone have any information to the nickname -- sounds like a possible street name? Odd.

seems to me, that if her nickname was mentioned in the obit, that it was probably a long-time nickname...maybe as a skinny child/teen???

[partyuv5]

Slade looks like a big kid "guy" for his age (Obit video). Maybe the killers thought he was an adult and that is why he was killed. But why take the kids? Where are they? After this long I wonder if they are still alive!

[close_enough]

Slade looks like a big kid "guy" for his age (Obit video). Maybe the killers thought he was an adult and that is why he was killed. But why take the kids? Where are they? After this long I wonder if they are still alive!

i just watched the obit video, & you're right....especially the last photo of him, which i assume is fairly recent, he does like like a pretty big guy....obviously not a little kid...you could be right...

[Liz]

There's some pretty interesting DEA drug stats and comparisons at this site for Idaho:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/idaho.html

You can compare these stats to your own state simply by substituting your state in te place of 'idaho' in the url. i.e. for NJ (their meth stats are extremely low):

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/newjersey.html

Seems like 2002 was a terrible year for meth; at least, in the states that I checked.

Some of these government websites I found, even have instructions on how to make meth!?! :doh:

[dannyodie]

I was wondering, does idaho have the law in place for all drug stores and grocerie stores to remove sinus decongestion medication, including almost all of the allergie medications from its shelves? those medications have the main ingredient for producing meth. In tennessee, you can't buy those items over the counter, it has to be asked for and then one must sign a form for it, plus show id. this has greatly helped in our state, this might be a nationwide effort that I ain't aware of, but here in tennessee they have removed all of it from the shelves. you can't buy more than 1 product at a time and can't buy it everyday. once or twice a month is all that one person can purchase. without these products meth makers can not produce the drug. they have to have the main ingredient in sinus and allergie medications without it, they are slowed down if not run out of making it.

[ISPTRAX]

Just as I had suspected. Meth had to be involved for someone to get so drug-hazed violent...

[annie mae]

You are right-on in EVERY word you have posted. And I agree 110%, the "Killers" are in plain sight and this was definately a "personal" action. Someone was getting even and was mad as heck, and sending a message. I am trying my best to keep a positive attitude about the 2 other children but I fear for the worse. In some circles the killing of children is also sending a message, of some kind. I believe in my heart of hearts that Brenda and Mark knew the killers and there were at least 2, maybe 3. The missing children are still in my prayers and what I have shared with all is just my thoughts, I hope they are all wrong, probably are. Blessings to All, annie

[JerseyGirl]

I was wondering, does idaho have the law in place for all drug stores and grocerie stores to remove sinus decongestion medication, including almost all of the allergie medications from its shelves? those medications have the main ingredient for producing meth. In tennessee, you can't buy those items over the counter, it has to be asked for and then one must sign a form for it, plus show id. this has greatly helped in our state, this might be a nationwide effort that I ain't aware of, but here in tennessee they have removed all of it from the shelves. you can't buy more than 1 product at a time and can't buy it everyday. once or twice a month is all that one person can purchase. without these products meth makers can not produce the drug. they have to have the main ingredient in sinus and allergie medications without it, they are slowed down if not run out of making it.Great post, dannyodie. I agree that meth production would take a HUGE hit if this were a nationwide effort. As of right now, as far as I know, it is state by state. And some people are complaining about having to sign a form - violation of privacy or some such statement. IMO, if that's the only way to attack this problem, then I'll sign the form. If there's nothing to hide, why is signing for cold medicine such a sacrifice?

[dannyodie]

the fight against meth should be as vigilant as that for missing persons issues. we all have to pull together and fight the war against drug production and the abuse of it. if the law makers across this nation don't push for it, then meth will just come from other parts of the country into the states that have put a near halt to it. it does not matter if you live in idaho, california, texas, the drug use for meth has been on the increase over the last several years, we call it " poor mans coke " and it has to be stopped, cocaine is bad enough, but statistically cocaine users aren't nearly as violant as those that do meth. meth is produced to line the pockets of disfunctional individuals, and in the long run, innocent lives are being lossed because of the nature of the drug. these creeps that make it aren't scientist by any means, they are idiots, and brew there poison just about any place they can. one man here in tennessee 6 months ago used a van as a portable meth lab, the reason it was discovered is because the chemicals that he was using exploded inside the van during transport. serves him right. people do have a right to be concerned for their privacy in this day and time. those that are against it totally, have no place to voice their concerns over meth use and the production of it, only when it hits home will they want to make a change, 65 percent of the people that try it for the first time, become hooked on it, I wonder how many school aged children are now using it? and if they aren't now, they eventually will. unless it is made difficult to acheive the main ingredients for making it, the problem will continue to grow and lives will be lost because of it. I would encourage those states that haven't already began a process of what tennessee has done to start looking into stompping it out. I believe that the manufactures that make the ingredient that these guys are after will start making the product without it. that will hurt these producers even more.

[JerseyGirl]

people do have a right to be concerned for their privacy in this day and time.It is true that people have a right to privacy but the expression "choose your battles" comes to mind. Why do people feel a need to buy their cold medicine in private? I just don't get it. I could understand if they were birth control pills or prescriptions for herpes medications, etc., (oh wait, we can't buy THOSE in private so why cold medicines, of all things)? But I don't want to bring this any further O/T. But you're right, dannyodie ... lives are definitely being lost over this drug, and something's gotta' be done.

[close_enough]

It is true that people have a right to privacy but the expression "choose your battles" comes to mind. Why do people feel a need to buy their cold medicine in private? I just don't get it. I could understand if they were birth control pills or prescriptions for herpes medications, etc., (oh wait, we can't buy THOSE in private so why cold medicines, of all things)? But I don't want to bring this any further O/T. But you're right, dannyodie ... lives are definitely being lost over this drug, and something's gotta' be done.

it shouldn't bother anyone to have to show ID & sign for cold meds....it's not like a person goes & buys 5 or 6 boxes of Tylenol Sinus at one time, anyway....

[GinaAngel435]

I was wondering, does idaho have the law in place for all drug stores and grocerie stores to remove sinus decongestion medication, including almost all of the allergie medications from its shelves?
No, you can still purchase sinus decongestion medication over the counter. And I agree, there should be no problems what-so-ever of them enforcing a law stating you have to show ID to purchase these OTC. I live in FL now, and you can purchase them OTC also. I go in, buy a bottle, and nurse my cold/allergies. I certainly don't buy 10 of them at one time. Unless there was some HUGE sale... but, that's just my thrifty mind at work. And I'd still be more then happy to show my ID should they ask why I have so many in the cart. :)

[JerseyGirl]

No, you can still purchase sinus decongestion medication over the counter. And I agree, there should be no problems what-so-ever of them enforcing a law stating you have to show ID to purchase these OTC. I live in FL now, and you can purchase them OTC also. I go in, buy a bottle, and nurse my cold/allergies. I certainly don't buy 10 of them at one time. Unless there was some HUGE sale... but, that's just my thrifty mind at work. And I'd still be more then happy to show my ID should they ask why I have so many in the cart. :)And that, IMO, would be sufficient. They would probably date the purchase, and if you showed up on the log the very next week buying ten more, then you might run into a problem but probably not before.

As the very first step, all of these med's should be taken off of the shelf and kept behind the pharmacy counter since apparently theft of these medications is also a big problem.

[annie mae]

Dannyodie. The same concerning ANY KIND of Allergy med or??? is locked-up here in Oklahoma. You have to show you first child haha to even purchase Actifed. I just by the Wal-Mart brand and be done with it. :) Seriously, I think all states should enforce the ID on any OTC allergy meds, it has helped Tulsa and surrounding areas. But, the kids in their early 30's are now turning to this Oxycontin, the poor man's Heroin.

[close_enough]

Dannyodie. The same concerning ANY KIND of Allergy med or??? is locked-up here in Oklahoma. You have to show you first child haha to even purchase Actifed. I just by the Wal-Mart brand and be done with it. :) Seriously, I think all states should enforce the ID on any OTC allergy meds, it has helped Tulsa and surrounding areas. But, the kids in their early 30's are now turning to this Oxycontin, the poor man's Heroin.

i believe, here in Tennessee, it's only cold meds with Pseudoephedrine, that are locked up & have to be signed for...it doesn't matter if it's generic (walgreens brand) or not...it's locked up behind the counter, & a person has to show ID, & sign a form to purchase it...

edited to add...i know that the above is the case, as far as Nashville goes, anyway....

[close_enough]

And that, IMO, would be sufficient. They would probably date the purchase, and if you showed up on the log the very next week buying ten more, then you might run into a problem but probably not before.

As the very first step, all of these med's should be taken off of the shelf and kept behind the pharmacy counter since apparently theft of these medications is also a big problem.

you're exactly right...that was one of the problems here...people were stealing the cold meds with the ingredient used for making meth....

[ISPTRAX]

It's the ingredient Pseudoephedrine they're putting "behind the counter" -- e.g. Sudafed or generic equivalent. In my state, they make you go to the pharmacy technician to get it. Don't need to show ID, or anything. I guess this doesn't make sense unless someone is trying to buy a boatload of it at once. I agree that you should show ID when buying it, because the meth-makers' way to get their ingredients is to hit like ALL stores they can and buy one or two packs each place. It adds up. So, technically, I could be one of those people just asking my Pharmacist for one or two packs without showing ID. By showing ID, they link the databases and make the connection. I think it's a small price to pay to show your ID, for those being petty and saying "it's not fair" -- WAH!

[cynder]

I have been following the meth phenomenon for a while - I work with some Vietnam Vets and they have been aware of it for at least 5 years now - it is far worse than I think most ordinary people realize. It is so horribly addictive and very hard to kick - even with intensive rehab and medical intervention.
Keeping people from producing Meth is one step - but just one among many that need to be taken. Have we addressed the availability of the materials in places such as Mexico and Canada - or overseas even? This "ban" everyone is touting seems like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
And what about those who are already addicted - are they to get no help? IMHO The war against drugs is never going to be won unless we devote as much time and attention and money to FREE in-patient rehab programs as we do to stopping production or shutting off the flow of drugs - BUT WE DON'T SEEM WILLING TO PAY FOR OR DEMAND THIS PART OF THE SOLUTION THOUGH.
And what do my friends tell me ... that all the cold medicine ban is doing is driving up demand and price - making the addicts have to commit even more heinous crimes to afford their addiction. We still have done nothing to help the addicts and this is going to end up touching every family in America - as we speak DA's and Doctors and LE Officers and Business Executives and Soccer Moms are among the addicts - we have barely scraped the surface on this one, I'm afraid. The energetic, perky teacher you trust your kids to every day could very well be a meth addict. It is far far more pervasive than any of us can imagine.

[dannyodie]

I have been following the meth phenomenon for a while - I work with some Vietnam Vets and they have been aware of it for at least 5 years now - it is far worse than I think most ordinary people realize. It is so horribly addictive and very hard to kick - even with intensive rehab and medical intervention.
Keeping people from producing Meth is one step - but just one among many that need to be taken. Have we addressed the availability of the materials in places such as Mexico and Canada - or overseas even? This "ban" everyone is touting seems like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
And what about those who are already addicted - are they to get no help? IMHO The war against drugs is never going to be won unless we devote as much time and attention and money to FREE in-patient rehab programs as we do to stopping production or shutting off the flow of drugs - BUT WE DON'T SEEM WILLING TO PAY FOR OR DEMAND THIS PART OF THE SOLUTION THOUGH.
And what do my friends tell me ... that all the cold medicine ban is doing is driving up demand and price - making the addicts have to commit even more heinous crimes to afford their addiction. We still have done nothing to help the addicts and this is going to end up touching every family in America - as we speak DA's and Doctors and LE Officers and Business Executives and Soccer Moms are among the addicts - we have barely scraped the surface on this one, I'm afraid. The energetic, perky teacher you trust your kids to every day could very well be a meth addict. It is far far more pervasive than any of us can imagine.
good post, the ones that end up in prison for manufacturing the drugs are also a cost to our state, and all our taxes have to pay for their dental care. a meth addict that has been doing it for a number of years, they say it rots out the teeth and cause all sorts of gum problems, our state indicates some several thousands of dollars are spent on just that alone. your post says alot and is a very good one. it is sad that people choose that lifestyle in the first place, thing is about addicted meth users, frequent use of the drug not only rots out the teeth, and destroys liver function, but these guys only live about 5 yrs if they are daily users, and most of them are. thanks for a well put post...

[Liz]

>>snip>> The energetic, perky teacher you trust your kids to every day could very well be a meth addict. It is far far more pervasive than any of us can imagine.


Cynder, I'm afraid you're right on the money. A couple of years ago, hubby and I had went into a local restaurant on a slow night. We got to talking with our waitress, and she ended up telling us of her past addiction to crank for over 5 years. (We had never even heard of the stuff before!) She told us she went into work high every day. I was astonished to hear that she worked in the Sheriff's Office and had direct contact with the Sheriff & Deputies, and they never even knew she was high!

As to Dannyodie's question above, I placed a call to Walmart Pharmacy to find out the answer. The products containing pseudoephedrine are placed behind the counter, in Idaho, just as I thought they were. There is no signature or ID required to purchase them; which is the part I was clueless about.

I am finding Websleuths to be a very educational forum! ;)

[Tom'sGirl]

I placed a call to Walmart Pharmacy to find out the answer. The products containing pseudoephedrine are placed behind the counter, in Idaho, just as I thought they were. There is no signature or ID required to purchase them; which is the part I was clueless about. ;)
Same out here in CA Liz..........

[Nchadwickaz]

I was wondering, does idaho have the law in place for all drug stores and grocerie stores to remove sinus decongestion medication, including almost all of the allergie medications from its shelves? those medications have the main ingredient for producing meth. In tennessee, you can't buy those items over the counter, it has to be asked for and then one must sign a form for it, plus show id. this has greatly helped in our state, this might be a nationwide effort that I ain't aware of, but here in tennessee they have removed all of it from the shelves. you can't buy more than 1 product at a time and can't buy it everyday. once or twice a month is all that one person can purchase. without these products meth makers can not produce the drug. they have to have the main ingredient in sinus and allergie medications without it, they are slowed down if not run out of making it.
In my opinion, and I live in Arizona where amount of Methamphetamine seized by federal authorities is 3 highest in the country (1st is CA, 2nd is TX) -- at
Arizona Federal Methamphetamine
Seizures: Methamphetamine: 168.6 kgs.

Now why would it be high in CA, TX, CA -- because we are border states to Mexico -- People who use drugs or manufacture drugs or deal in criminal aspects don't usually use the legal routes to obtain what they need/want. So banning cold medicine or background checks on gun's -- only make it harder for law-abiding citizens to obtain. --

In fact, Psuedoephedrin or ephedrin in cold medicine, ironically, manufacting meth CAN be made without either one --

Methamphetamine hydrochloride is easily produced using ephedrine, hydroiodic acid (both controlled substances), or over-the-counter pseudoephedrine found in cold medication. Hydroiodic acid is a necessary ingredient in one of the major manufacturing processes. Although strictly controlled, it can be created by combining red phosphorous and iodine - chemicals that are not regulated. Recently, phenylpropanolamine has been used as a precursor chemical to produce amphetamine. However, this product is also marketed as methamphetamine.

The key ingredient of methamphetamine is ephedrine, a controlled substance. Because it is difficult to obtain ephedrine, drug dealers use pseudoephedrine, found in many over-the-counter medicines. These medicines are processed to remove buffers and produce ephedrine.Cash purchases of large quantities of red phosphorous and iodine (for hydroiodic acid) are made by drug dealers in order to produce methamphetamine. No federal regulations or quantity limitations control the sale of these chemicals; therefore, it is difficult for the DEA to track their possession. As part of the Methamphetamine Control Act of 1996, these chemicals, along with pseudoephedrine, have been added to the target list in the Chemical Diversion and Trafficking Act, CDTA. With the ability to track the sale of large quantities of these chemicals, the DEA will be able to identify major manufacturers of methamphetamine. The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) identified clandestine laboratories in Mexico and California as the major sources of methamphetamine. Legal access to an abundant supply of chemical precursors in Mexico makes this country a major producer. The ephedrine/pseudoephedrine reduction method is common in Mexico because of the abundant supply of these chemicals. Organized crime groups operating in Mexico run major distribution channels. They have access to wholesale ephedrine sources of supply on the international market; they produce vast quantities of high-purity methamphetamine on a regular basis; and they already control established cocaine, heroin, and marijuana distribution networks through-out western, southwestern, and, increasingly, southern and Midwestern states.

[Tom'sGirl]

In my opinion, and I live in Arizona where amount of Methamphetamine seized by federal authorities is 3 highest in the country (1st is CA, 2nd is TX) -- at
Arizona Federal Methamphetamine
Seizures: Methamphetamine: 168.6 kgs.

People who use drugs or manufacture drugs or deal in criminal aspects don't usually use the legal routes to obtain what they need/want.

In fact, Psuedoephedrin or ephedrin in cold medicine, ironically, manufacting meth CAN be made without either one --



Good point and post Nch,

[CaliKid]

I live in southern California. Last fall my daughter's best friend moved to western Wyoming with her family, and she says that drug use there, primarily meth, is on a scale that makes our area look very insignificant. If you read the statistics on government websites, drug use in the heartland is reaching epidemic proportions, especially among teenagers and 20-somethings.

Besides the basic health issues and how quickly one can become addicted to it, the scariest thing about meth is the rage that frequently comes on the user when coming down off the drug. There is a lot of violence among the families of meth users with spouses and, especially, innocent children the frequent targets.

Sad to say, the murder of Brenda, Slade and Mark has all the telltale signs of a meth rage that quickly went out of control.

[Wayne]

I live in southern California. Last fall my daughter's best friend moved to western Wyoming with her family, and she says that drug use there, primarily meth, is on a scale that makes our area look very insignificant. If you read the statistics on government websites, drug use in the heartland is reaching epidemic proportions, especially among teenagers and 20-somethings.

Besides the basic health issues and how quickly one can become addicted to it, the scariest thing about meth is the rage that frequently comes on the user when coming down off the drug. There is a lot of violence among the families of meth users with spouses and, especially, innocent children the frequent targets.

Sad to say, the murder of Brenda, Slade and Mark has all the telltale signs of a meth rage that quickly went out of control.
The drug use was escalating in the household ... so, where did the adults get the $$$ for the increased drug use? Maybe the meth contact said no more until $$$ come in to payoff balances owed; and addicts will do anything to feed their addiction. Could one adult have promised to do porn to raise $$$ to support the crystal meth addiction but backed out at the last minute, only to end up getting the three killed (and the brutality of their deaths was a warning to others to not back out; that payment one way or another will be collected)?

As bad / evil as this may sound, is it possible an adult (not necessarily living there but someone Brenda or Mark had business dealing with, like their meth contact) had had convinced Mark (or Brenda) to arrange for Brenda's children (Shasta, Slade, or Dylan) to do porn to raise $$$ to support their crystal meth addiction? Addicts will do anything to feed their addiction. But maybe one child (Slade, Dylan, or Shasta) was not aware of the "plan" and got upset late that Sunday night, leading Brenda (or Mark) to become uncooperative at the last minute?

With two young children (Shasta and Dylan) abducted, the perp(s) can use threats of physical violence against one child to control the other child.

[CaliKid]

And can use the threat of violence against the children to control the surviving family members.

[annie mae]

Like I had mentioned. Here in OKLAHOMA all OTC allergy meds are behind the counter, locked in a glass case, maybe I forgot to say that. :) Plus you HAVE to present ID, phone #, etc. Maybe your first born, I don't know for sure about that :) And there are many many folks out there in the workplace that get high on Crack, Crank and Meth, saad but true.

[Nchadwickaz]

Besides the basic health issues and how quickly one can become addicted to it, the scariest thing about meth is the rage that frequently comes on the user when coming down off the drug. There is a lot of violence among the families of meth users with spouses and, especially, innocent children the frequent targets.]

If you replace the word meth w/ the word alcohol the statement is also true. As far as the health issues -- every drug effects the body negativly in some way (side effects listed on perscribed drugs), and alcohol not only effects EVERY organ in your body -- after years of abuse it is the most dangerious drug to withdraw off of -- people die since their physically addicted. Unfortunaltly, no matter what drugs a parent partakes in (even sometime legally perscriped or legal -- alcohol) -- the innocent children are the ones that suffer the most. I would go out on a limb her to say that the percentage of american that routinely use mind-altering drugs today (legal and not -- Zoloft, Ritilian, etc.) has sky-rocked in the last 20+ years. If you are depressed, angry, sad, frustrated, lonely -- just take a pill (or a hit) and you will not feel it anymore.

Infact, something to ponder -- A lot of the young adults today, were diagnosised attention deficent (hypertenstion), I am 33 and the term was not even used until shortly after I graduated in 1990. Then it was, in my opinion, over and mis-diagnoised -- these kids (not sure if it is still prodomintely perscribed) were perscribed Ritilian. This is basically meth, just legally prescribed.:bang:

Whenever, ANY drug is used that is illegal -- the changes of you encountering danger and experiencing some kind of violence is increased dramatically -- you are now dealing in a completly different world, these people play by different rules and by a completly different set of values -- when you get ripped off -- you can't call the police and sue, matters are now, etc. -- The same things said today about Meth -- was said about cocaine in the past -- crack was introduced because it was a poormans cocaine (cheap), then the same was said about crack, etc.

I guess, in my opinion, an addiction is an addicition -- meth does not make these people monsters who will do anything for the high (has anyone seen someone coming down from herion and the physical need vs. the psychologically need of meth is not even comparable)....

Sorry, just some thoughts -- In the first thread I explained growing up a child (same ages of these children, and of grew to the ages of jesse an vance) -- I have had my life changed by drugs, but it was because of the drugs I made better choices for my life and for my children.

Not meaning to offend anyone by this -- but since the topic had swayed to the topic of the drug meth itself....

[Gracelin]

Whenever, ANY drug is used that is illegal -- the changes of you encountering danger and experiencing some kind of violence is increased dramatically -- you are now dealing in a completly different world, these people play by different rules and by a completly different set of values -- when you get ripped off -- you can't call the police and sue, matters are now, etc. -- The same things said today about Meth -- was said about cocaine in the past -- crack was introduced because it was a poormans cocaine (cheap), then the same was said about crack, etc.

I guess, in my opinion, an addiction is an addicition -- meth does not make these people monsters who will do anything for the high (has anyone seen someone coming down from herion and the physical need vs. the psychologically need of meth is not even comparable)....


I agree meth does not make them monsters,I think there are more people who are meth free without ever killing or hurting anyone physically.

I have heard and read about in the news more stories about voilent crack user.

Herion is by far the saddest to see someone come down from, if they can come down, growing up in the city (philly)in the 60's+70's herion was the the drug of choice, I can name a half of dozen people I knew, who died from it.

I never understood how anyone could stick a needle in their arm, something that still baffels me today..

Nchadwickaz you sound like a well grounded person.

[CaliKid]

I grew up in an alcoholic household and lived first-hand the dysfunction and violence that comes with it.

[Wayne]

I grew up in an alcoholic household and lived first-hand the dysfunction and violence that comes with it.
I grew-up with an older brother who was an alcoholic. I was about 11 years younger. And I recall several times as a child and teenager I'd be the focal point of his abuse when he'd drink.

He's been off the bottle for about 25 years now. But I'll bear the scars forever.

[CaliKid]

My parents were social drinkers who usually reserved their drinking for weekends. Mother used to get so drunk she'd fall down, and then my dad, who was also drunk, would kick and curse at her. I remember on many occasions as a teenager waking up to screams coming from outside my bedroom door as he abused her.

But if given the choice, I'd rather live with alcoholics than someone on methamphetamine.

[Liz]

Happened to come across this article covering the topic we were discussing on this thread a couple of days ago. Maybe this legislation will help!

06/04/05
Cold drug curbs considered in meth fight (http://www.nwcn.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/nation/060405ccjrcwnatcolddrugs.2e09d454c.html?hp)

United States Congress is considering legislation making it more difficult to purchase cold & allergy medications, containing an ingredient used in manufacturing meth.

[JerseyGirl]

Wayne & CaliKid, I'm so sorry to hear about what you've both been through. I also grew up in somewhat bizarre circumstances, and those scars do remain forever. My heart is with you both. :blowkiss:

[CaliKid]

Thanks JerseyGirl. There was one good thing about living in an alcoholic family- I vowed when I grew up was that I would not have a substance abuse problem. Despite a lot of domsestic violence in my own marriage, I thank God that I didn't turn to alcohol or drugs and put my children through what I grew up with.

[harleysnana]

But if given the choice, I'd rather live with alcoholics than someone on methamphetamine.


I'm not sure I agree with this....
I have known alcoholics and meth addicts...
I think it depends on the person’s temperament!
My brother in law was an alcoholic and had a BAD temper.
Threw knives at my niece, beat my sister.
My daughter was a meth addict ..was happy all the time... wouldn't
hurt a flee.
I wouldn’t want to live with either of them for different reasons!
But I think if someone is violent it doesn’t matter what their drug
of choice is…they become more violent.

[dannyodie]

I'm not sure I agree with this....
I have known alcoholics and meth addicts...
I think it depends on the person’s temperament!
My brother in law was an alcoholic and had a BAD temper.
Threw knives at my niece, beat my sister.
My daughter was a meth addict ..was happy all the time... wouldn't
hurt a flee.
I wouldn’t want to live with either of them for different reasons!
But I think if someone is violent it doesn’t matter what their drug
of choice is…they become more violent.
I think if I also had a choice I could deal with a alcoholic much easier than to have a meth addict in the next room. I have never heard of alcoholics going out in a rage bad enough to kill people to get the money for a six pack, but almost everyday in this country younger people are being gunned down for the money to purchase a rock the size of a small pea to get there fix. your right in some respect that it depends on the persons mental stability overall, but the continued abuse of meth destroys the control in the region of the brain that allows us to make good senseable choices in life. alcohol puts the brain to sleep after the abuse has reached a certain level, even if one could continue to drink it and abuse it they just get so sloppy drunk they fall down and end up passing out for hours, meth addicts are hiped up so much that they want to go back out to get more, since the main part of the high is short lived.

[Nchadwickaz]

I'm not sure I agree with this....
I have known alcoholics and meth addicts...
I think it depends on the person’s temperament!
My brother in law was an alcoholic and had a BAD temper.
Threw knives at my niece, beat my sister.
My daughter was a meth addict ..was happy all the time... wouldn't
hurt a flee.
I wouldn’t want to live with either of them for different reasons!
But I think if someone is violent it doesn’t matter what their drug
of choice is…they become more violent.
Very good point and point -- I could not agree w/ you more --

I can remember my dad telling me stories of my grandfather coming home drunk and waking everyone making them all get in line while he aimed a shotgun at them -- this was a common occurence!!! -- then they would wait until one could hit him w/ something or he passed out -- usually the later -- this was back, in a time that NO ONE TALKED ABOUT IT -- that he would have friends spend the night and they would be lined up w/ the rest -- but the next day -- it was like nothing ever happened....

....the mental state or disorder that one has -- becomes altered (sometimes to an extreme) -- they are all mind-altering drugs (including alchohol)....

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks JerseyGirl. There was one good thing about living in an alcoholic family- I vowed when I grew up was that I would not have a substance abuse problem. Despite a lot of domsestic violence in my own marriage, I thank God that I didn't turn to alcohol or drugs and put my children through what I grew up with.It's odd that stuff like that does tend to make us stronger, huh? I have a lot of friends that would fall apart if their roof sprung a leak. To me, that's life, and as long as my house hasn't burned down to the ground, I'm just happy to be alive and happy, and thankful that the dynamics in my own family are so much different than what I grew up with. That's the silver lining - that people can throw almost anything at us, and we manage to cope.

I wish that Slade would have had the chance to grow up and make something good come from his own hardships, whatever they might have been. I hope and pray that Dylan and Shasta will still get that chance.

[CaliKid]

It's odd that stuff like that does tend to make us stronger, huh? I have a lot of friends that would fall apart if their roof sprung a leak. To me, that's life, and as long as my house hasn't burned down to the ground, I'm just happy to be alive and happy, and thankful that the dynamics in my own family are so much different than what I grew up with. That's the silver lining - that people can throw almost anything at us, and we manage to cope.

I wish that Slade would have had the chance to grow up and make something good come from his own hardships, whatever they might have been. I hope and pray that Dylan and Shasta will still get that chance.
Me too. I just wish something would happen to bring these children home.

[Liz]

I wish that Slade would have had the chance to grow up and make something good come from his own hardships, whatever they might have been. I hope and pray that Dylan and Shasta will still get that chance.


Amen. Well said, JerseyGirl.

[Lili]

I don't know if these articles were posted anywhere, but I thought this would be a good place to share them.

February 18, 2005
"Idaho sheriff turns meth war to gangs
Attention on small labs may be a waste, he says in seeking help from Spokane
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho -- Since the recipe for methamphetamine began finding its way into Kootenai County kitchens, Sheriff Rocky Watson has been putting all of his effort into fighting the makeshift meth labs.

Now, Watson said, he's ready to take a new approach by targeting the gangs that bring even more of the drug into Idaho....."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/212602_meth18.html


Also, this is a series of articles that I found. When it first opens you have to scroll down a bit to the beginning. Then down further you will see links to the series. Note this is an older series, but very informative. Part 6 is especially sad.
Meth: A deadly epidemic
http://www.msnbc.com/news/498823.asp?cp1=1

[CaliKid]

In reading the People magazine article on the kids and then this info on cooking meth, I feel so sorry for Slade, Shasta and Dylan. What a world to grow up in.

[close_enough]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/498823.asp?cp1=1

thanks for the link, Lili...very informative...part 3 is just awful, also :(

[Liz]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/498823.asp?cp1=1

thanks for the link, Lili...very informative...part 3 is just awful, also :(


Finally got around to reading the entire expose' on meth, covered at Lili's link; and I agree with close_enough, it is extremely informative. A real eye-opener for anyone who wishes to learn more about meth addiction and problems occuring in many of our communities.

Lili, thanks for sharing your find with us! :)

[Lili]

:blushing: Y'all are welcome! I found it to be very helpful and informative for me and thought someone else might benefit from it.

We recently had 12 people setting in county jail awaiting trial because they were linked to drug deaths. For example: A sold to B who sold to C who sold to D, who died...so A,B & C were sitting in jail on possible murder charges.
But recent law change could no longer charge them with murder... so the jailed are slowly being processed on to their probation or whatever.

I just read this morning that a lot of the drugs coming into western Pa. are coming from the Detroit area.

"The officer, who asked to remain anonymous, confirmed there has been an increase in drug activity in the area, adding there also has been an upswing in the number of people migrating from the Detroit area to Venango County to do business. In the past year and a half the number of arrests of people from the Detroit area has increased. In the last month there have been five or six, he said.

"The arrests from people in that area are increasing," he said.

Why are they coming to Venango County to ply their trade? The equation is simple: Drugs can be purchased cheaply elsewhere and then brought here and sold at a sizable markup.

That was the problem a few years ago with heroin, the officer said. Heroin was being purchased in larger cities for about $7 a bag and then sold here for $35.

Franklin police chief Jeffrey Storm said the area's population makes it a target for drug dealers.

Storm said drug dealers who come to Venango County typically find a woman to take them in for a home base of operations.

One Detroit arrestee told police "You're just one of 10,000 small towns these kids are going to," the chief reported.

"It's an ongoing thing and we're working on it," Storm said.

Geography also helps, said the officer asking not to be identified. Venango County is close to Pittsburgh, while Philadelphia and Detroit are only four or five hours away." http://www.thederrick.com/stories/06272005-1002.shtml

[LTUlegal]

Meth is big in the Coeur d'Alene/Spokane area. While Coeur d'Alene's economy is growing, there are still the "haves" & "have nots". While Spokane's economy seems to continue downhill. Meth has become big because it's so cheap to make & buy.
I posted this thought on ctv and will post it here. I apologize if I should have posted it on another thread...getting used to the policies here! My thought: People who run in circles that it seems Brenda & Mark did, seem to take in anyone as a friend. If someone needs a place to crash, they've got a couch. Could Brenda and Mark have taken someone in, even for a night who was a hardened criminal? Could this person have had meth with them & Brenda & Mark did it just because? Could their trust have been there undoing?
I really think that if Brenda was into illegal activity, she was perhaps trying to get clean because the 3 kids who were in school reportedly did well, were always friendly, and had good grades. I have a hard time believing that Brenda & Mark were screwed up all the time. You have to be alert to have a 13 year old do well in school, as well as the 2 younger ones.
jmo & ramblings...

[close_enough]

Meth is big in the Coeur d'Alene/Spokane area. While Coeur d'Alene's economy is growing, there are still the "haves" & "have nots". While Spokane's economy seems to continue downhill. Meth has become big because it's so cheap to make & buy.
I posted this thought on ctv and will post it here. I apologize if I should have posted it on another thread...getting used to the policies here! My thought: People who run in circles that it seems Brenda & Mark did, seem to take in anyone as a friend. If someone needs a place to crash, they've got a couch. Could Brenda and Mark have taken someone in, even for a night who was a hardened criminal? Could this person have had meth with them & Brenda & Mark did it just because? Could their trust have been there undoing?
I really think that if Brenda was into illegal activity, she was perhaps trying to get clean because the 3 kids who were in school reportedly did well, were always friendly, and had good grades. I have a hard time believing that Brenda & Mark were screwed up all the time. You have to be alert to have a 13 year old do well in school, as well as the 2 younger ones.
jmo & ramblings...

ugh, sad to say, meth is "big" everywhere, but anywaaaay, my sister is a crack head, & there are folks that say she's the friendliest person they've met....it's kinda weird, because when this case first broke, someone mentioned that they didn't see how Brenda could be a drug addict, when she was planting flowers, & "fitting in with normal life"......all this crank, meth, crack, wires a person up....it does my sister, anyway...she's been fighting "it" for years...my point is, she's not "normal"....meth/crack addicts aren't....they appear normal because they're so hyped up/paranoid about appearing normal....oh gosh, i can't explain it...i've been around a few to know, & they're just different....BUT my point was, YES, they're trusting....i can see them inviting strangers over, doing a "good deed"....i've met some of my sister's friends, & i'm like....what???
my father once said he'd rather see her 6 ft underground than to have to worry where she is, & she's 45 yrs old....it's some wicked stuff

sorry, i'm rambling...got waaay O/T :crazy:

[inquisitive-mind]

I'm a recovering coke/crack addict and I can tell you that not every addict is skin and bones, living on the street. I was a functioning addict. I got the kids to their functions. I worked. I kept the laundry done. Maybe Brenda was a functioning addict. Sometimes, when you use for a while, people get used to seeing you a little hyped and just think that's you.

BTW, I used to live in St. Louis a long time ago. There's plenty of meth there. You know that some of the biker clubs don't just deal in meth, they deal in slaves too. I've heard of people being drugged and shipped out of state.

inquisitive-mind

[Liz]

I'm a recovering coke/crack addict and I can tell you that not every addict is skin and bones, living on the street. I was a functioning addict. I got the kids to their functions. I worked. I kept the laundry done. Maybe Brenda was a functioning addict. Sometimes, when you use for a while, people get used to seeing you a little hyped and just think that's you.

BTW, I used to live in St. Louis a long time ago. There's plenty of meth there. You know that some of the biker clubs don't just deal in meth, they deal in slaves too. I've heard of people being drugged and shipped out of state.

inquisitive-mind


Thanks for your personal insight, inquisitive-mind. I wish you continued success in your recovery!

When the multi-state biker club arrests were made a couple weeks back, some stories did mention that some of their crimes commited were kidnappings and bike thefts. I shudder at the possibility of the implications in your post; and I try to avoid those thoughts. It's really difficult to go there. (And, I do realize that it's only a very, very, very small percentage of bikers that are 'bad guys'.)

Close_enough, I feel for you and your Dad. It must really weigh heavy on you both knowing that your sister is addicted to a drug that has such a controlling grip on her. I hope and pray she sees the light and makes up her mind to clean up her act. Thanks for your personal insight, too!

Both of your posts have helped to personalize it, so to speak, for me.

[Lili]

Nightmare of all nightmares...can you see two little kids meeting someone on the street/in the park to exchange packets for cash? Who's going to suspect little kids?