'Possible Suspects' Discussion

[Liz]

This seems like it might be a sore topic. Because discussing it might mean implicating someone. Someone that's innocent. Well, we shall just see how it goes. :)

I don't know why, or what for; but my first gut instinct about someone taking the children, and commiting this crime; was that it was someone that they had met over at Wolf Lodge Bay Campground, that is nearby their house.

My husband's friend came over to visit for awhile today. They were out in his shop, talking 'shop' or whatever men talk about. ;)

This evening after hubby came inside and was settled down watching tv and the news came on, he told me his friend's theory about the murders. His friend thinks that somebody from that campground did this!

This probably means absolutely nothing. But, it sure did freak me out :eek: lol! Because that had been my 'first impression', too!

After a week of news on this case, I honestly don't know what to think. I'm befuddled! :confused:

[Liz]

Help me out here.

Has LE actually denied that Vance is a suspect?

The only thing they've said publicly is that he passed the poly


Was there a friendship between Steve and Lutner or between Vance and Lutner?

Lutner was allegedly a longtime family friend. I believe Vance considered him a friend but not sure that Steve knew him. I think I recall Steve saying that Lutner was unknown to him, but am not certain.


It is a small town, and it is likely that they all ran in the same group.

For me to answer would be pure speculation, but my gut tells me no. It's not that small of a town, really.


How long was Lutner out of town and where did he reportedly go?

Assume you mean before LE located him, after putting the word out. I think it was roughly a day. I haven't heard where he went. Told his parole officer he was going to his mom's near Boise. Rumor has it she didn't hear from her son.


Did Lutner actually owe Mom the money?

According to Jesse, Lutner owed 'his parents' 2G they had loaned him a year before, for the purpose of saving his house.

[Liz]

from KHQ:

Authorities in Idaho say victims probably knew killers

Also confirmed Monday, the lead detective believes the victims knew the killer or killers."That was based on the fact that there were no obvious signs of forced entry.That the suspect or suspects had been invited into the residence," Wolfinger said.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7965024/

[emmcee]

from KHQ:

Authorities in Idaho say victims probably knew killers



Besides no obvious signs of forced entry, the "dogs that didn't bark" seems to indicate that the killers were not strangers.

[Liz]

Besides no obvious signs of forced entry, the "dogs that didn't bark" seems to indicate that the killers were not strangers.


But, how do we know that the dogs didn't bark?

[jblfelines]

But, how do we know that the dogs didn't bark?
I was just thinking the same. Also maybe they left their doors unlocked so there would be no forced entry.

[emmcee]

Besides no obvious signs of forced entry, the "dogs that didn't bark" seems to indicate that the killers were not strangers.


I thought there was a discussion on the first (locked) thread about the pet pit bull and other dog who normally would protect their family against intruders. Was this not true?

[Pharlap]

But, how do we know that the dogs didn't bark?


Good point.
Also were the dogs checked for maybe having eaten something that would of put them to sleep for a short time or maybe hit and knocked out?


Just a thought....:waitasec:

[lisalou]

But, how do we know that the dogs didn't bark?
That's a good question....I'm thinking it was that they asked the same neighbors who heard other things, "did you hear the dogs at all?"

Just my guess.

[SauerKraut]

That's a good question....I'm thinking it was that they asked the same neighbors who heard other things, "did you hear the dogs at all?"

Just my guess.

The lack of forced entry and the dog's not barking seems to indicate it was someone they knew and had been in the house before. Why would campers takes the little kids but kill the 13 year old? I don't understand the 13 year old being killed, it bothers me the most. It just doesn't fit. I think they were going to take him too but he put up a fight so they killed him.

I also think, as more time goes by, the little one were not taken out of the house because someone was concerned about their welfare, they were taken out for ransom, revenge, whatever.

[TisHerself]

JMHO I think that the 2 little ones were taken before it happened someone took them for a ride. I don't think they saw a thing, only Brenda and Mark were home when it first happened Slade was probably out. He was not expected to come home but he did and walked in in the middle of it so he had to die.

[lady-eowyn]

I also think, as more time goes by, the little one were not taken out of the house because someone was concerned about their welfare, they were taken out for ransom, revenge, whatever.
But, if they were taken for revenge then revenge against who? Certainly not the mother because she is dead. Revenge against the father?

[WhiteWolf]

But, if they were taken for revenge then revenge against who? Certainly not the mother because she is dead. Revenge against the father?


Maybe the father, maybe one of the brothers (Jesse comes to mind because of his legal troubles).

It really bothers me that Steve had requested a couple of days (not the regular time for his visitation) with Dylan and Shasta (not Slade?) on the very weekend Dylan and Shasta were abducted from the house.

I've also wondered if Slade was closer to Mark than he was to his bio dad, Steve. If jealousy, child support and/or visitation was an issue with Steve, is it possible if Slade was more Mark's boy, would Steve (if involved in some way with the murders) just insure the two younger children's safety? Maybe (if Steve was involved), something went wrong with the plan and Slade had to be killed because he fought the killer/abductor.

[WhiteWolf]

I just read on another thread that the blood work was complete and there was none of Dylan's and Shasta's blood found in the house. Great news! I was so afraid the younger children may have been beaten or hurt before they were abducted. Now I wonder how LE can be so sure the children witnessed what happened to Mark, Brenda, and Slade?

[JerseyGirl]

I don't know why, or what for; but my first gut instinct about someone taking the children, and commiting this crime; was that it was someone that they had met over at Wolf Lodge Bay Campground, that is nearby their house.
That seems like a possibility. Was the campground already open when this happened? Is it open year-round?

[JerseyGirl]

from KHQ:

Authorities in Idaho say victims probably knew killers
Odd, how can they say that the perp(s) were invited in? I can see saying that they most likely knew the perp(s) or that the perp(s) possibly knew where a spare key was hidden or that a door or window could possibly have been left open. But to say that they were invited in seems odd to me. That's more than just saying that there was no sign of forcible entry.

[JerseyGirl]

I just read on another thread that the blood work was complete and there was none of Dylan's and Shasta's blood found in the house. Great news! I was so afraid the younger children may have been beaten or hurt before they were abducted. Now I wonder how LE can be so sure the children witnessed what happened to Mark, Brenda, and Slade?There must be footprints in the blood or hand or hair prints on the door or something like that. Because LE seems to me to be convinced that they witnessed the crime.

[Lili]

There must be footprints in the blood or hand or hair prints on the door or something like that. Because LE seems to me to be convinced that they witnessed the crime. My thoughts also. There must be some smaller footprints or hand/fingerprints maybe in blood smears somewhere that indicates the children were in the home when this happened.

My thoughts on a weapon? A tire iron. Just a "redneck'" thing I guess. :rolleyes:

And further, if someone is traveling with these kids, I would think they would try to change their looks, cut Shasta's hair, maybe dye their hair. So the hair color, growth could be changed.

[WhiteWolf]

There must be footprints in the blood or hand or hair prints on the door or something like that. Because LE seems to me to be convinced that they witnessed the crime.


Thanks, JerseyGirl, that makes sense. I just hope what you mentioned is why the LE is so sure.

I've been thinking a lot about how a parental abduction of children is usually carried out. The abduction of the child usually happens during a scheduled or unscheduled visit with the non-custodial parent. The child is usually told a lie/story about why they can't go home such as, "to protect you," "mom or dad doesn't love you anymore," " mom or dad can't take care of you," etc.. A parent may be able to con an eight or nine year old child, but a 13yo wouldn't be so easy.

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks, JerseyGirl, that makes sense. I just hope what you mentioned is why the LE is so sure.
I'm not exactly sure why but I really have the feeling that LE might have specific perp(s) in mind. I don't think they know, however, where the kids are, and so they have to be very careful in figuring out how to locate them or draw them out without jeopardizing the children's lives.

[ISPTRAX]

1. This wasn't some random highway/campground people. The crime was way too brutal. It was revenge for something.

2. Although it seems a brutal revenge, it wasn't as brutal as it could have been. The perp(s) would have killed the little children in front of the Mom if it was revenge on her (but their blood wasn't found). Or maybe the revenge was on the BF and they killed the GF and her son in front of him before killing them.

3. They didn't kill the kids there because they didn't want to leave evidence of them being killed. Wanted the cops looking for live kids to keep the cops off the perp(s) tail for a while. (but then killed/disposed of the kids later because they had no use for them).

Just random thoughts...

[Tristan]

I agree that the perp may have killed the kids later (though I REALLY hope that is not the case.)

This case doesn't seem to getting much media attention...at least in the NYC news channels.

I hope the children are found safe...and soon.

[mysteriew]

Brutal crimes like this usually tend to be done by one of two types of killers- a person close to the family, or a person with mental health/crazed drug issues (or both). It was hands on, in the heat of the moment, panicked. Nothing has come out that anyone attempted to clean up and hide the crime. As if after the crime, the main focus was to care for the kids- get them away where they won't be faced with the crime and calmed down, they can be talked to and possibly threatened to not be a witness against the killer.

A revenge killer would normally want to leave his options open. For instance kill one, leaving a number of other family members available for more pressure. Also the revenge killer will usually want more distance- do the killing in such a way that only the person who is under pressure, knows the reason why the person was killed. And they usually want a no mess type of killing, where they won't be leaving the scene with blood on them. (a driveby killing, an "accidental" killing- such as a hit and run, sniper killing, in the dark muggng/killing, etc) A mob killing might have been this brutal, but they would have killed the kids too, so as not to leave the witnesses.

[mesnowmom123]

~snip~
Now I wonder how LE can be so sure the children witnessed what happened to Mark, Brenda, and Slade?
Maybe there were child size bloody shoe prints in the house / outside??? I'm pretty sure a female 8 year old and a male 9 year old would have significantly smaller shoes than adults or a teen male.

[mesnowmom123]

There must be footprints in the blood or hand or hair prints on the door or something like that. Because LE seems to me to be convinced that they witnessed the crime.
DUH, sorry JG. I answered WW without reading to the end of the thread and said the same thing.

Me --------> :loser:

[SauerKraut]

I'm not exactly sure why but I really have the feeling that LE might have specific perp(s) in mind. I don't think they know, however, where the kids are, and so they have to be very careful in figuring out how to locate them or draw them out without jeopardizing the children's lives.

This exactly what I've thought all along. I think they are releasing too little info in this case. I think the family has given them ideas of who did this and who has the kids but they need to FIND them. Any names, descriptions, further details, puts the kids in grave danger.

They still have not said anything about blood between the car and the house. Was there in fact blood on the car door? That would mean someone either a) tried to escape or b) purps were looking in the car for something.

[mysteriew]

Meanwhile, Wolfinger said Thursday afternoon that nobody connected with the killings has been completely ruled out as potential suspects

Already, Brenda Groene's ex-husband, Steve, and sons Vance, 21 and Jesse, 18, as well as a former person of interest and family friend Robert Lutner, 33, have all been ruled out as suspects, at least for the time being.

"There is no evidence to support them being named suspects at this time," Wolfinger said, stressing "at this time."

"That is always a qualifier, and I've said from the get-go that we have never closed the door 100 percent on any avenues of investigation, and we won't until we get this thing concluded," he said.

Wolfinger said he also has no information about any possible associates of those connected to the family being involved in the killing.

Meanwhile, Kootenai County Coroner Dr. Robert West would not narrow down the time of killings to any time less than between sometime Sunday night, May 15, and when the bodies were found at 6:15 p.m. the following day.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/27/news/news01.txt

[Liz]

I am still trying to figure out just why Steve Groene was ruled out as a suspect, so quickly. Right from the discovery of the crime, it seemed, he had already been eliminated. :confused:

That's all we heard for the first couple of days was that Brenda's ex-husband had already been ruled out, as a suspect. Captain Wolfinger would say that investigators had not told him why, but just that he had been eliminated.

Even at Steve's own admission, he didn't have an alibi! So, can anyone come up with any reason LE would have cleared him so quickly? Is is just because he resides with his ex-mother-in-law?

Not trying to make any accusations at all. But, I'm really curious about this aspect.

[mysteriew]

I am still trying to figure out just why Steve Groene was ruled out as a suspect, so quickly. Right from the discovery of the crime, it seemed, he had already been eliminated. :confused:

That's all we heard for the first couple of days was that Brenda's ex-husband had already been ruled out, as a suspect. Captain Wolfinger would say that investigators had not told him why, but just that he had been eliminated.

Even at Steve's own admission, he didn't have an alibi! So, can anyone come up with any reason LE would have cleared him so quickly? Is is just because he resides with his ex-mother-in-law?

Not trying to make any accusations at all. But, I'm really curious about this aspect.

Strategy.
Once LE declares someone a suspect, they clam up. On the other hand a person who is not a suspect will often talk, trying to be percieved as "helpful".
LE has made two statements, they have said that no one has been ruled out as a suspect and they have said that Steve, Vance and Lutner are not suspects.
Basically in an investigation of this type, everyone is a suspect until they have acculmulated enough evidence to charge the real perpetrator. Yet they are not going to close any avenues of investigation by calling someone a suspect.
Even when Lutner couldn't be found, they didn't call him a suspect- he was a person of interest.

[JerseyGirl]

DUH, sorry JG. I answered WW without reading to the end of the thread and said the same thing.No problem, mesnowmom ... I do that ALL of the time! :)

[IdahoMom]

From KIRO TV:

Speculation crime could be committed by a passerby:
http://www.kirotv.com/news/4531609/detail.html?rss=sea&psp=eastsidenews

~snip~
Because their home was close to Interstate 90, just west of a pass in the Rocky Mountains, investigators have said it is possible that a motorist committed the crimes at random and then jumped onto the highway heading toward Montana or Seattle.

The Groene family lived on the edge of this Idaho Panhandle community, both physically and financially. Coeur d'Alene is a booming resort and retirement town, thanks to its postcard lake and abundant golf courses. Like many resort areas, it is also home to people like the Groenes, struggling to get by on low-paying jobs.
~snip~

I commented on Coeur d'Alene's proximity to other states and Canada, and was scoffed at :waitasec: by a poster earlier. This theory DOES MAKE SENSE, imo.:slap:

It was an awfully brutal crime to be committed by someone unknown to the victims, but this IS a possibility. Sounds to me like LE has ruled out those close to the victims.

[JerseyGirl]

Sounds to me like LE has ruled out those close to the victims.You might be right but I'm not completely believing that just yet. I go back & forth with my theories, and right now I'm wondering if LE wasn't a little too quick to reassure everyone that Steve Groene is not a suspect. No alibi, failed polygraph, yet LE states outright only hours later that he is not a suspect? Something's not ringing true for me. I'm not saying that he definitely is a suspect, just that perhaps he isn't yet completely ruled out.

[IdahoMom]

You might be right but I'm not completely believing that just yet. I go back & forth with my theories, and right now I'm wondering if LE wasn't a little too quick to reassure everyone that Steve Groene is not a suspect. No alibi, failed polygraph, yet LE states outright only hours later that he is not a suspect? Something's not ringing true for me. I'm not saying that he definitely is a suspect, just that perhaps he isn't yet completely ruled out.I'm inclined to think Steve may have knowledge as to the kids' whereabouts but not who the perp is, if he does in fact have knowledge at all on this case.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm inclined to think Steve may have knowledge as to the kids' whereabouts but not who the perp is, if he does in fact have knowledge at all on this case.I sure hope that he doesn't for all of the obvious reasons. In addition, if Steve has something to do with this, my radar is WAY off. To me, he just seems like a terrified, grieving father.

[mysteriew]

I am still thinking family member.
But probably not Steve. But I do believe that Steve knows or strongly suspects who and also where the kids might be. That could be the reason he had problems with the lie detector. Remember the announcement Steve made that he failed the lie detector test? IMO he wouldn't have made that announcement if he was guilty. I believe the question that he had problems with is- do you know where the children are. Steve making the announcement about failing the test could be part of a strategy to take the public pressure, in return for giving a false sense of security to the person/persons responsible for the crime.

My theory is that LE has a strong suspicion about who, and they are watching someplace for signs of the kids.

[Leigh]

I believe I heard on one of the TV shows that the door to the family car in the yard was found standing open. I wonder if maybe the children were put into that car and kept there so they didn't witness the actual beatings and murders. There's a reason for that car door being left open. Maybe the 13 yr. old was also put in that car with the younger children, but he got away and went back inside the house to try and help his Mother and her boyfriend, so they had to kill him too. Maybe when the murderer(s) left they grabbed the children out of that car (leaving the door standing open) and took them because they would have been able to describe the murderer(s). The police would still call them witnesses even if they weren't inside the house to actually see what happened.

This could be the case of someone tieing up and beating the adults to make them hand over a stash of drugs, or the money for the drugs if a deal had just been made and the killers knew about it.

The killers could have started beating/killing one of them until the other person told where the stash of drugs or money was. The killers being killers wouldn't stop with killing just one, they would have to kill all of them so there wouldn't be any witnesses left.

[JerseyGirl]

Unfortunately, Leigh, LE seems pretty convinced that the young children did witness what happened in that house that day. They haven't explained why they think so as of yet.

[dannyodie]

Unfortunately, Leigh, LE seems pretty convinced that the young children did witness what happened in that house that day. They haven't explained why they think so as of yet.
I could not imagine these kids watching there mom and brother and their moms boyfriend being killed, what a horrible scene this must have been, maybe they were in the car and one if not both came back to the house after the killing had started and they saw some of it happening or what had happened, maybe thats why somewhere in all this I read someone heard someone yelling get back in the car! if that is so, then whoever did this was making the kids stay outside, but I do believe they came back to the house and witnessed some of it, there may be some of their footprints in some of the blood. the police have to be careful as to not release to much info, some of the crime scene evidence has to be with held so if someone slips up and says something specific about the crime scene that hasn't been released then it could help the investigation process. things like types of bindings used, and things of that sort have to be kept out of the public eye.

[JerseyGirl]

I could not imagine these kids watching there mom and brother and their moms boyfriend being killed, what a horrible scene this must have been...I simply cannot even conceive of it. These children are only 8 and 9 years old. :( I can't even watch movies with scenes a lot less violent and gory than these murders must have been so to think that children this young witnessed this as reality on their loved ones is just beyond me.

If these children are alive somewhere, I pray that God gives them comfort. They are going to need SO MUCH help when they are found. Don't get me wrong; I obviously want the children found alive. I just wish they had been found the day after this happened so someone can help the children begin therapy. Imagine carrying those images around in your 8 or 9 year-old mind for weeks, (while possibly in custody of the monsters that did it, nonetheless)! :( :( :( :( :(

[SandyBee]

I don't think it was any family member, I think it had something to do with drug dealers. Maybe they owed money because they were 'spotted' some drugs and never paid it back. I'm not talking some kid on the street, I am thinking more along the lines of an organized drug ring (Mexican drug cartel?). Those guys don't mess around and the murders are generally brutal. You don't beat someone to death randomly, this was revenge and/or consequences for not paying up. The murders were planned as they came with the proper 'tools' to commit the crimes. Maybe they grabbed the little kids and are either going to try and get ransom money OR 'sell' them, as awful as that sounds. This is all just way too planned out for me to think it was a family member. I'm sure most of the family knows she was a druggie but I don't think they killed the family.

I do hope they find the kids alive and safe! :(

[oceanblueeyes]

Brutal crimes like this usually tend to be done by one of two types of killers- a person close to the family, or a person with mental health/crazed drug issues (or both). It was hands on, in the heat of the moment, panicked. Nothing has come out that anyone attempted to clean up and hide the crime. As if after the crime, the main focus was to care for the kids- get them away where they won't be faced with the crime and calmed down, they can be talked to and possibly threatened to not be a witness against the killer.

A revenge killer would normally want to leave his options open.


Sometimes a crime happens that is so unexplainable. One that doesn't quite fit "types" or traits, imo and this is one of those cases. Trying to understand why someone kills can drive one insane as there is no rhyme or reason...there simply is not "one size fits all".

As I read about this case I think to myself "how could anyone have this much rage, hatred and vengeance to do this?" and even though I dont know who did this.......I know "somebody" surely possessed all that was needed to carry all of this out.

I do not think that Steve Greone is involved, I am not so sure about Vance. I also know that nothing breeds more anger, hatred and vengeance than those who seethe with fanatical hatred toward anyone who allows, condones or is in a inter-racial relationship. That type of hatred could be more than enough to make this happen.

From what we have learned about Brenda and Mark, they weren't the shy type, in fact I see them as aggressive and noticed that even Vance had stated they had run-ins with their friends. IMO, they made an enemy from hell...did they even know it? I dont know but someone came there to do exactly what they did. They left that scene just like they wanted people to see it. Who is to say they weren't crafty and cunning? It is two weeks and no break yet or even a suspect or POI. Some killers are proud of the crime scene they leave behind. Will there be something in that home...anything...to connect the killers to the crime. I am not so sure...we will see.

I find no comfort that Dylan and Shasta are in the company of triple murderers. Killers kill on their own time, at their own choosing...there are only two witnesses to this crime...I hope they are still with us but sadly, I do not think they are.

Ocean

[Tom'sGirl]

Unfortunately, Leigh, LE seems pretty convinced that the young children did witness what happened in that house that day. They haven't explained why they think so as of yet.JG,

The only way I can think of the the LE is so sure the kids witnessed the crime is maybe from their foot prints in the blood, meaning they would have to have seen the bodies laying there!

Just again guessing here :confused:

[oceanblueeyes]

JG,

The only way I can think of the the LE is so sure the kids witnessed the crime is maybe from their foot prints in the blood, meaning they would have to have seen the bodies laying there!

Just again guessing here :confused:

I am in total agreement. I think they entered the front door and left by the front door....I think LE has proof that the children were there and their little footprints or shoe prints were found in the living room leading out with the perp(s)... they may have even been found the prints all through the home as CW stated that blood was in all the home. So the bodies may have been laid out in the living room but imo, with blood everywhere in the home they weren't all killed in the living room. JMO

Ocean

[JerseyGirl]

I am in total agreement. I think they entered the front door and left by the front door....I think LE has proof that the children were there and their little footprints or shoe prints were found in the living room leading out with the perp(s)... they may have even been found the prints all through the home as CW stated that blood was in all the home. So the bodies may have been laid out in the living room but imo, with blood everywhere in the home they weren't all killed in the living room. JMO

OceanI tend to agree with that statement. I at least believe that they were initially attacked in separate rooms, even if they ended up being killed together in the living room.

I also wanted to mention, (in response to another post), that I am aware of the ways in which LE could know if the kids were present during the murders - foot/hand/hair prints in the blood, etc. As much as I want to believe otherwise, I am one of the people that's been pointing out LE's assertion all along that the kids witnessed these brutal crimes. I was simply stating that whatever the evidence is to indicate that, LE hasn't mentioned. But if LE says that they were there, then I believe that they were there. We'll find out what that evidence was eventually.

Another poster and I spoke briefly in a pm, and this thought was presented to me. (Especially considering LE's repeated mention of the "positioning" of the bodies, and oceanblueeyes' statement about criminals often taking pride in their crime scene), it is possible that a note was left behind, perhaps even scribbled on a wall. Whether or not that happened would be a big clue as to the type of murderer LE has on their hands - whether this was a serial killing, random killing, targeted killing ...

[close_enough]

I don't think it was any family member, I think it had something to do with drug dealers. Maybe they owed money because they were 'spotted' some drugs and never paid it back. I'm not talking some kid on the street, I am thinking more along the lines of an organized drug ring (Mexican drug cartel?). Those guys don't mess around and the murders are generally brutal. You don't beat someone to death randomly, this was revenge and/or consequences for not paying up. The murders were planned as they came with the proper 'tools' to commit the crimes. Maybe they grabbed the little kids and are either going to try and get ransom money OR 'sell' them, as awful as that sounds. This is all just way too planned out for me to think it was a family member. I'm sure most of the family knows she was a druggie but I don't think they killed the family.

I do hope they find the kids alive and safe! :(

i agree with you....i would think most family members knew Brenda & Mark were into drugs, but i don't think a family member did this...i believe it's related to drugs though...the killers were looking for something...either money was owed to them...or they were there to steal meth, or get meth that might have been stolen from them....drug deal of some kind, gone bad......

[txsleuth]

Re: Brian Messerly, who saw the blood on the door but didn't phone police - check out his relative:

https://www.accessidaho.org/public/corr/offender/search.html?ScriptForm.searchstep=criteria

Surely law enforcement checked out all offenders on probation for drug crimes or recently paroled offenders, but just in case, I faxed them this morning about this guy.

[Liz]

Re: Brian Messerly, who saw the blood on the door but didn't phone police - check out his relative:

https://www.accessidaho.org/public/corr/offender/search.html?ScriptForm.searchstep=criteria

Surely law enforcement checked out all offenders on probation for drug crimes or recently paroled offenders, but just in case, I faxed them this morning about this guy.


What's the information you faxed them, and who is the relative? It doesn't show anything on that page, Txsleuth.

[txsleuth]

What's the information you faxed them, and who is the relative? It doesn't show anything on that page, Txsleuth.


oops sorry - just search Messerly on that link

[Liz]

oops sorry - just search Messerly on that link


Ah, :doh: me! Thanks, txsleuth! :)

[Wayne]

JG,

The only way I can think of the the LE is so sure the kids witnessed the crime is maybe from their foot prints in the blood, meaning they would have to have seen the bodies laying there!

Just again guessing here :confused:
I have thought about that and agree foot prints in the blood makes sense (as awful as it sounds). But there is another thought...

Maybe - just maybe - the family escaped at one point but everyone was recaptured (by the report the two vehicle doors were open) and the perp(s) gathered everyone in the main room, leaving foot prints of mud from outside in the main room. Brenda, Mark, and Slade were found (according to a report I heard on TV) in different parts of the main room, like they were being interrogated before being murdered. Maybe Shasta and Dylan left the home just before the killings took place. Maybe the perp(s) took the children outside - and LE traced their drag marks or foot prints in the mud outside and mud marks inside.

A lot of maybes. But the more I read, the more convinced I am that LE knows more than they are releasing.

[Liz]

Re: Brian Messerly, who saw the blood on the door but didn't phone police - check out his relative:

https://www.accessidaho.org/public/corr/offender/search.html?ScriptForm.searchstep=criteria

Surely law enforcement checked out all offenders on probation for drug crimes or recently paroled offenders, but just in case, I faxed them this morning about this guy.


Could it be that the guy who gave his name as Brian Messerly 'might' just be one and the same, as "Ted Fred Messerly", going by a different name? (Probably not, but you never know with criminals.)

Also, I found a Steven Roy McKenzie on that same site on page two of the McKenzie name. Sounds like this might be Mark's brother. Do all of these people have criminal backgrounds, or what?

[txsleuth]

Could it be that the guy who gave his name as Brian Messerly 'might' just be one and the same, as "Frederick Ted Messerly", going by a different name? (Probably not, but you never know with criminals.)

Also, I found a Steven Roy McKenzie on that same site on page two of the McKenzie name. Sounds like this might be Mark's brother. Do all of these people have criminal backgrounds, or what?

Yep - Steve McKenzie - Mark's brother - was charged with involuntary manslaughter several years ago.

Brian Messerly was charged with domestic battery.

His relative - Theodore Fred Messerly - is the one with the lengthy criminal record for poss of control substance, eluding police, etc. He spent time in prison and was paroled in '03 or '04 I think.

I wish we knew who else was at the bbq that night.

[Liz]

Thanks for all the info, txsleuth!

How do you know for sure that this "Ted Fred" is related to Brian Messerly?

You are some sleuth! :)

[Tom'sGirl]

Yep - Steve McKenzie - Mark's brother - was charged with involuntary manslaughter several years ago.

Brian Messerly was charged with domestic battery.

His relative - Theodore Fred Messerly - is the one with the lengthy criminal record for poss of control substance, eluding police, etc. He spent time in prison and was paroled in '03 or '04 I think.

I wish we knew who else was at the bbq that night.
tx, speaking of the BBQ.........how could the affair of any type have taken place at night like Lutner said, and yet the neighbor was reported to have called the LE at 6:15 p.m.:confused:

>Lutner told investigators he saw the three alive when he attended a ``barbecue-type get-together'' at the home Sunday night, Wolfinger said<

[Wayne]

tx, speaking of the BBQ.........how could the affair of any type have taken place at night like Lutner said, and yet the neighbor was reported to have called the LE at 6:15 p.m.:confused:

>Lutner told investigators he saw the three alive when he attended a ``barbecue-type get-together'' at the home Sunday night, Wolfinger said<
I could be wrong but as I understand it, the neighbor called LE on Monday at about 6:15-PM and the BBQ was Sunday evening. Or did I miss something?

[JerseyGirl]

I could be wrong but as I understand it, the neighbor called LE on Monday at about 6:15-PM and the BBQ was Sunday evening. Or did I miss something?This is what I understand to have happened as well. In fact, remember that they had to check if the kids had been to school that day or not to try to narrow the TOD window?

[Wayne]

This is what I understand to have happened as well. In fact, remember that they had to check if the kids had been to school that day or not to try to narrow the TOD window?Speaking of school, I originally had heard on our local TV that the children were last seen Monday 5/16 as they got off the school bus. But a later report corrected the original report to use Lutner's statement.

Also ... I heard a report on Monday June 6th suggesting if one excludes Lutner's statement, the two young children were last seen Saturday by the neighbor. That an unamed LE source said people attending the BBQ saw the three (who were killed) alive but no one reported seeing the two children. The reports I looked up mention only that people attending the BBQ affair reported seeing alive the three who were killed (Brenda, Slade, and Mark) with no mention of seeing the two children. Has anyone heard / read that report? Or am I mistaken?

[Liz]

Wow. No, I didn't see any report about that but it was something that I have previously pondered.

Thinking what if the children weren't at the barbecue? Another one I pondered is what IF Brenda really did let Steve take the kids for that unscheduled visit?

What IF someone just took Shasta and Dylan's shoes and made some lil footprints in some of the blood to make it look like they had been there when the murders occured? (I know, ghorry thought.)

Where'd you see that report, Wayne?

[Tom'sGirl]

I could be wrong but as I understand it, the neighbor called LE on Monday at about 6:15-PM and the BBQ was Sunday evening. Or did I miss something?You are so right Wayne, and I was so wrong:doh: thanks for catching that.

I have to go back now and check, was it Brian Messerly that dropped by on Sunday when he saw the blood on the door and thought nothing of it?

[Lili]

But, Mark's brother left his son there for a while on Sunday to play with Shasta and Dylan. So from that, I assume they were there on Sunday.

[Tom'sGirl]

Could it be that the guy who gave his name as Brian Messerly 'might' just be one and the same, as "Ted Fred Messerly", going by a different name? (Probably not, but you never know with criminals.)

Also, I found a Steven Roy McKenzie on that same site on page two of the McKenzie name. Sounds like this might be Mark's brother. Do all of these people have criminal backgrounds, or what?I just posted this elsewhere, but I'll add it here also since the subject is Brian Messerly

As of the last update, the following persons are on active probation supervision. Information listed is public record accessible at the Kootenai County Courthouse. Take NO personal or legal action on any individual based solely on this information. You may contact the probation office or law enforcement to relate concerns.

MESSERLY, Brian
Birthdate: 9/21/1978
Case#: CR-12-12565
Date Sentenced: 1/4/2005
http://www.co.kootenai.id.us/departments/justiceservices/adultmis/publicinfo.asp (http://www.co.kootenai.id.us/departments/justiceservices/adultmis/publicinfo.asp)

[Wayne]

Wow. No, I didn't see any report about that but it was something that I have previously pondered.

Thinking what if the children weren't at the barbecue? Another one I pondered is what IF Brenda really did let Steve take the kids for that unscheduled visit?

What IF someone just took Shasta and Dylan's shoes and made some lil footprints in some of the blood to make it look like they had been there when the murders occured? (I know, ghorry thought.)

Where'd you see that report, Wayne?
I heard it on a radio talk show. I looked back at reports / transcripts and one report said "... it is believed ..." the children were at the BBQ Sunday afternoon.

Reading the reports and transcripts over & over, LE seems very certain the children were witnesses to the murders. How can that be? IMO, blood spatter pattern may have drops falling onto the kids' shoes instead of the floor (drops around a shoe-print). Also, blood pool forming a pattern around part or all of a kid-filled shoe. IMO, it is an awful ghorry thought. (IMO, I am fairly certian LE can determine by the blood pool if a shoe had a foot in it or not.)

One last thing. With the children being witnesses to a murder, IMO the kids likely will not voluntarily be set free to identify the killers. And the perps will likely use threats against one child to try to control the other child.

With that said, I really hope and pray that Shasta and Dylan are found alive and unharmed.

[CaliKid]

There is an awful lot of criminal element circulating around this family. Very scary.

[close_enough]

There is an awful lot of criminal element circulating around this family. Very scary.

no kidding!!!!!

[Liz]

I've been checking the site that txsleuth provided and it's been down since about midnite last night. Wonder if that's standard maintenance or if they didn't like all the sleuthing going on?

https://www.accessidaho.org/public/corr/offender/search.html?ScriptForm.searchstep=criteria

Eta: It's working now. Figures! Right after I post that it's not. :rolleyes: lol

[Wayne]

i agree with you....i would think most family members knew Brenda & Mark were into drugs, but i don't think a family member did this...i believe it's related to drugs though...the killers were looking for something...either money was owed to them...or they were there to steal meth, or get meth that might have been stolen from them....drug deal of some kind, gone bad......
I agree with you (close_enough) and SandyBee - this case very possibly may be drug-related. But if this is drug-related, I am fearful the children are dead.

Why might drug dealers want children alive? The scenarios that come to my mind are sex-related, sold to some sicko pervert to pay-off a debt, or a religious cult took them (for a religious ceremony for a sacrifice or to be saved).

LE mentioned positioning of the bodies. That they were not together but apart. Like each was interrogated and then executed.

I think the children could have escaped and hidden outside in the car - the car door was found open - and when confronted, started screaming hysterically and the perp(s) stuffed them into their vehicle, to be dealt with elsewhere?

Although I am hopeful the children are alive and will be found unharmed, IMO, this is reminding me in some ways of the Jennifer Renee Short case (Virginia 2002) where the 9-year-old girl was abducted and her mother and father were shot dead in their beds. Her decomposed body was found about two months later in North Carolina.

[Liz]

I might have heard about an aspect that would explain why so many fbi investigators were brought in. I only caught a blurb on local Spokane news tonight and was lucky to catch that, as I was chatting away with my husband.

What I caught was about "dealing in kidnappings, stolen motorcycles and meth", which naturally grabbed my attention, pertaining to this case.

I was able to find this story (http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_060905WABgangraidsJK.2f981783c.html) on NWCN.

Massive raids net alleged motorcycle gang chiefs

"As many as 40 members of the Bandidos motorcycle club were arrested Thursday in a massive series of simultaneous raids in three western states including eight cities in Washington". >>> more

There is video footage available which I am unable to view. Maybe someone else can view the video and fill those of us who are unable to view it in.

This might explain why Steve offered up his bike!

[Tom'sGirl]

I might have heard about an aspect that would explain why so many fbi investigators were brought in. I only caught a blurb on local Spokane news tonight and was lucky to catch that, as I was chatting away with my husband.

What I caught was about "dealing in kidnappings, stolen motorcycles and meth", which naturally grabbed my attention, pertaining to this case.

I was able to find this story (http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_060905WABgangraidsJK.2f981783c.html) on NWCN.

Massive raids net alleged motorcycle gang chiefs

"As many as 40 members of the Bandidos motorcycle club were arrested Thursday in a massive series of simultaneous raids in three western states including eight cities in Washington". >>> more

There is video footage available which I am unable to view. Maybe someone else can view the video and fill those of us who are unable to view it in.

This might explain why Steve offered up his bike!Liz, nothing much on the video that was said that wasn't in the article.

[CaliKid]

So he thinks the deaths of Brenda, Slade and Mark/Shasta and Dylan's disappearance were related to motorcycle gang violence? Sorry, I was unable to open the link.

[Liz]

Thank you, TG! I appreciate it! :)


So he thinks the deaths of Brenda, Slade and Mark/Shasta and Dylan's disappearance were related to motorcycle gang violence? Sorry, I was unable to open the link.


I'm not sure who 'he' is that you're referring to CaliKid, but I think the answer is no. Nobody, other than me, suggested that there might be a link between outlaw motorcycle gangs and the kidnappings and murders. It's just another guess, at yet another theory.

[Liz]

Here's another link, to a more detailed story and you should be able to open it, CaliKid:

Law Enforcement Puts the Brakes on Outlaw Motorcycle Gang (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050609/clth077.html?.v=10)

Couple of snippets:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Bellingham Police Department and Whatcom County Sheriff's Office initiated the investigation in 2002. Evidence of crimes to include; firearms trafficking, armed narcotics trafficking, assaults, kidnapping, witness intimidation, and trafficking in stolen vehicles by members and associates of the Bandidos was documented. Some of those arrested held leadership positions at both the international and national level of the Bandidos.

ATF Special Agent in Charge Kelvin Crenshaw stated, "This investigation does not end here." >>>more at link above


Now I'm wondering IF Mark's hunting rifles and guns were taken by the perps. We've never been told what, if anything, was stolen during the commission of the crimes. C'mon LE, give us something!

[dannyodie]

Here's another link, to a more detailed story and you should be able to open it, CaliKid:

Law Enforcement Puts the Brakes on Outlaw Motorcycle Gang (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050609/clth077.html?.v=10)

Couple of snippets:




Now I'm wondering IF Mark's hunting rifles and guns were taken by the perps. We've never been told what, if anything, was stolen during the commission of the crimes. C'mon LE, give us something!
I know we all are curious as to what le may know and what things they took from the crime scene, a u haul trailer full is a lot of evidence, but most of those things are things that probably were personal items of the victims. I know that since I grew up in a family with le I know first hand that even the small pieces of evidence will not be discussed until they know without a reasonable doubt that the evidence is nothing or when it can be directly linked to a suspect and the arrest of the suspect, then they would release the details only after knowing that there aren't others connected to it. the fbi has control of this case, they are stone figures when it comes to releasing information. but I am like most if not all of you, it would be good to know of some more of the details, maybe it would help us all in putting this puzzle together. this crime has a large circle of people in it, and le has not even made the loop just yet. this large circle I refer to is the circle of friends and people known to the family and victims, even if it was the simple druggy buying drugs from the home, they were still known to them. meth dealers and users are a difficult bunch to understand, their emotional stability is disrupted and they can't be trusted, they are amoung the most violant individuals when it comes to obtaining the drug or the money to obtain it.

[CaliKid]

Thanks, Liz.

[Lili]

I found these news articles on Mr. Messerly, please forgive me if these are a repeat post! :p


January, 2005 The Spokesman Review: Brian L. Messerly, 26, Coeur d'Alene; battery-domestic violence; $1,000 fine, 180 days in jail (145 days suspended), two years probation.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200501/ai_n11711641

August 2003: Brian L. Messerly, 24, Rathdrum; petty theft; $300 fine (suspended), 365 days in jail (360 suspended), or 40 hours county work program, two years' probation.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200308/ai_n11681686