View Full Version : Beating,Tape and zip-ties? Similar MO?
Posted: May 24, 2005
Robbery in Post Falls leaves victim beaten
On May 18, at approximately 3:30 p.m., the Post Falls Police Department responded to a report of suspicious circumstances in the 2200 block of Lady Anne Way in Post Falls. A female called to report that her neighbor had come to her house at approximately 8 a.m. to use her telephone to call a relative; her neighbor came in covered in blood, bleeding from the head.
During the phone conversation, the female caller overheard the telephone conversation of the male reporting to the relative that he had been severely beaten and robbed by two males and a female, he relayed information that his vehicle was also stolen during the incident. When the female asked the male to contact the police, he told her that he could not contact the police...
When officers arrived at the home, they found the victim’s home ransacked and the victim covered in blood; he refused medical attention at the scene...
...the female who had given him a ride home attacked him along with the two males. Authorities believe that the males followed the victim and the female back to the Post Falls home. The victim received several blows to the head and lost consciousness. When he woke up he was bound with tape and zip ties. One of the males held a shotgun, and told the victim that he would be killed if he attempted to move. The suspects proceeded to ransack his home, taking his wallet, money, and credit cards. They forced the victim, at gunpoint, to give up his bank personal identification number. Once he provided this number, the female suspect left the residence and went to a local bank to withdraw money from the victim’s account. The male suspects remained at the residence for her to return. The suspects then stole his vehicle and left the scene.
Later in the evening, the Spokane County Sheriff’s Department located the vehicle in the Spokane area and arrested both males after a vehicle pursuit. They are currently in custody at the Spokane County Jail. The suspects have been identified as Donald W. Brown, 26, of Spokane, WA, and Steven L. Murphy, 25, of Spokane, WA. Both men have lengthy criminal records.
The Post Falls Police Department is working to identify the female suspect and describe her as a white female, between the ages of 28 and 32, with dark shoulder length hair, medium build. Authorities believe her first mane maybe Debra and goes by the street name of “Angel”.
Anyone with information please contact the Post Falls Police Department at 208-773-3517 or visit the Post Falls Police (http://www.postfallspolice.com/) website and leave an anonymous tip.
http://www.ruralnorthwest.com/artman/publish/article_5017.shtml
This was May 18th, after the Groene family incident, I hope this incident is being looked at very carefully!
Beyond Belief
05-30-2005, 11:06 PM
Maybe they got them!
Tom'sGirl
05-30-2005, 11:31 PM
Maybe they got them!
Except we don't know what type of bindings were used in the Groene case......only the authorities do and they haven't said as of yet!
Also, doesn't explain the children missing.
Just thought...if it is them, fingerprint results will nail them. But they apparently haven't found the female yet from this scene.
Beyond Belief
05-30-2005, 11:48 PM
. Once he provided this number, the female suspect left the residence and went to a local bank to withdraw money from the victim’s account.
That information in the article is interesting. Most ATM machines take a photo of the person making a transaction at the ATM. They should have a photo of the female. I thought that was common knowledge unless other areas don't do that.
Just thought...if it is them, fingerprint results will nail them. But they apparently haven't found the female yet from this scene.
Just heard on Fox news @ 10 that the woman involved in this crime, Deborah Dutcher, was arrested in Riverfront Park this morning. That would be Spokane, if I am not mistaken. They said that she and two men robbed and beat a man in his Post Falls home and stole his ATM card.
Me thinks if she is hanging around parks early in the morning, she may be homeless. And maybe a meth head, too? Just a guess.
Didn't mention a word about the possibility that the crimes may be related.
dannyodie
05-31-2005, 06:26 AM
Except we don't know what type of bindings were used in the Groene case......only the authorities do and they haven't said as of yet!
Also, doesn't explain the children missing.
the fact that there was a woman involved with this other case, maybe there is a connection to the groene case. if a woman were involved and she may have been the one to want to take the children out? just a thought. funny how so many crimes there with victims being bound, we have had lots of robberys and so on here in nashville and never have I heard of any of the victims being bound, I guess that might indicate to me that these are young individuals doing this late 20s to early 30s. lets all hope and pray that the kids are safe....
close_enough
05-31-2005, 08:39 AM
. Once he provided this number, the female suspect left the residence and went to a local bank to withdraw money from the victim’s account.
That information in the article is interesting. Most ATM machines take a photo of the person making a transaction at the ATM. They should have a photo of the female. I thought that was common knowledge unless other areas don't do that.
yes, as far as i know, all ATMs have cameras...unless the person has a mask on, or a hood of some kind, covering their face, they get good pics of people...
close_enough
05-31-2005, 09:04 AM
http://www.postfallspolice.com/Press%20Releases/Robbery%20051805.htm
good find, Lili!!!!
this is different..this guy was hitch hiking/walking & this woman picked him up, took him home, & her & 2 guys beat him up...they didn't kill him...heck, he didn't even call LE...he refused medical attention too....weird :eek:
http://www.postfallspolice.com/Press%20Releases/Robbery%20051805.htm
good find, Lili!!!!
this is different..this guy was hitch hiking/walking & this woman picked him up, took him home, & her & 2 guys beat him up...they didn't kill him...heck, he didn't even call LE...he refused medical attention too....weird :eek:
No, in the first place he refused to report this to the police, but his neighbor overheard his phone call to relatives and she called the police. They probably threatened to come back and kill him if he reported it!
He reported:
"The victim reported that he had been at a local Stateline bar on Tuesday evening (May 17) and met two males during his visit. One of the males invited the victim to come back to his home with him in the Spokan Valley , the victim accepted and stayed for several hours, into the morning. Also at the residence, when the victim arrived, were another male and a female. At the conclusion of the stay the victim was offered a ride home by the female and he accepted."
close_enough
05-31-2005, 09:32 AM
No, in the first place he refused to report this to the police, but his neighbor overheard his phone call to relatives and she called the police. They probably threatened to come back and kill him if he reported it!
He reported:
"The victim reported that he had been at a local Stateline bar on Tuesday evening (May 17) and met two males during his visit. One of the males invited the victim to come back to his home with him in the Spokan Valley , the victim accepted and stayed for several hours, into the morning. Also at the residence, when the victim arrived, were another male and a female. At the conclusion of the stay the victim was offered a ride home by the female and he accepted."
these 3 set this guy up, at the bar...they scoped him out there....wild!
Beyond Belief
05-31-2005, 07:02 PM
The article says they stole his car. Did they leave their cars at his place? Were they stolen and from where?
Could it be that he didn't want to report the crime because there might be drugs involved?
Should I say "Bingo"?
"Clues lead murder investigation to CDA hardware store
BI agents investigating the murders of three North Idaho residents have followed leads to a Coeur d'Alene hardware store and tracked down customers who made a certain purchase.
Those leads have led agents to the Lowe's in Couer d'Alene and specifically to people who bought white zip ties.
Brenda Groene, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie were found murdered inside their Wolf Lodge Bay home two weeks ago last Monday.
Investigators have released few details about the crime scene but on Tuesday KREM 2 News learned that the three murder victims were bound with white zip ties possibly purchased from the Coeur d'Alene Lowes. FBI agents have interviewed people who bought the zip ties from the store including a local businessman who did not want to be identified.
FBI agents confirmed to KREM 2 News that the zip ties are an important clue in the case along with the murder weapon. Investigators have not revealed what it is but the Coroner’s report said the device used killed the victim's quickly........"
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/krem2_060105_groene-latest.2d07c6ad9.html
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:34 PM
Should I say "Bingo"?
"Clues lead murder investigation to CDA hardware store
BI agents investigating the murders of three North Idaho residents have followed leads to a Coeur d'Alene hardware store and tracked down customers who made a certain purchase.
Those leads have led agents to the Lowe's in Couer d'Alene and specifically to people who bought white zip ties.
Brenda Groene, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie were found murdered inside their Wolf Lodge Bay home two weeks ago last Monday.
Investigators have released few details about the crime scene but on Tuesday KREM 2 News learned that the three murder victims were bound with white zip ties possibly purchased from the Coeur d'Alene Lowes. FBI agents have interviewed people who bought the zip ties from the store including a local businessman who did not want to be identified.
FBI agents confirmed to KREM 2 News that the zip ties are an important clue in the case along with the murder weapon. Investigators have not revealed what it is but the Coroner’s report said the device used killed the victim's quickly........"
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/krem2_060105_groene-latest.2d07c6ad9.html
you're right....bingo!!!...thanks Lili
Should I say "Bingo"?
Clues lead murder investigation to CDA hardware store
BI agents investigating the murders of three North Idaho residents have followed leads to a Coeur d'Alene hardware store and tracked down customers who made a certain purchase.
Those leads have led agents to the Lowe's in Couer d'Alene and specifically to people who bought white zip ties.
Brenda Groene, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie were found murdered inside their Wolf Lodge Bay home two weeks ago last Monday.
Investigators have released few details about the crime scene but on Tuesday KREM 2 News learned that the three murder victims were bound with white zip ties possibly purchased from the Coeur d'Alene Lowes. FBI agents have interviewed people who bought the zip ties from the store including a local businessman who did not want to be identified.
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/krem2_060105_groene-latest.2d07c6ad9.html
Great post, Lili. These crimes may be related. The female accomplice may explain why the younger children were not killed at the scene, maybe she wouldn't let her boyfriend kill little kids. If their motive was simple robbery in this case, I wonder why they murdered them. Unless they knew each other, and didn't want witnesses. If these are the perps, and they are currently in jail, I wonder where the children are?
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:36 PM
hmmm, device used killed the victims quickly....
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:39 PM
Great post, Lili. These crimes may be related. The female accomplice may explain why the younger children were not killed at the scene, maybe she wouldn't let her boyfriend kill little kids. If their motive was simple robbery in this case, I wonder why they murdered them. Unless they knew each other, and didn't want witnesses. If these are the perps, and they are currently in jail, I wonder where the children are?
you know, i really didn't think these were related, when i first read the other article, but you never know.....seems odd that, if it's the same people, they would kill Brenda, Mark & Slade, but yet, the other guy lived...he apparently was able to get the zip ties off himself, i assume, since he went to a neighbors house to use the phone, afterward.....interesting
you know, i really didn't think these were related, when i first read the other article, but you never know.....seems odd that, if it's the same people, they would kill Brenda, Mark & Slade, but yet, the other guy lived...he apparently was able to get the zip ties off himself, i assume, since he went to a neighbors house to use the phone, afterward.....interesting
There are a lot of dissimilarities. But this could be a start to finding out who did this. These people may have an idea who did this, you know, birds of a feather flock together.
joanofarc
06-01-2005, 02:47 PM
hmmm, device used killed the victims quickly....
My first thought....claw hammer
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:49 PM
My first thought....claw hammer
me too, but didn't want to say it first....(isn't that silly?...the word claw-hammer just sounds so wicked)
you know, i really didn't think these were related, when i first read the other article, but you never know.....seems odd that, if it's the same people, they would kill Brenda, Mark & Slade, but yet, the other guy lived...he apparently was able to get the zip ties off himself, i assume, since he went to a neighbors house to use the phone, afterward.....interesting He may have passed out again, and they left him for dead when the female returned. These two cases are similar IMO.
joanofarc
06-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Question: Zip Ties....I have this picture in my mind of garbage bag twist ties when I hear this but now that I think of it it must be longer strips of white plastic that zip together when looped and pulled, right?
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:51 PM
There are a lot of dissimilarities. But this could be a start to finding out who did this. These people may have an idea who did this, you know, birds of a feather flock together.
yep, you're right...birds of a feather, do flock together...i so hope we get more details soon...things should start coming together, within the next few days or so, i would think.....
Tom'sGirl
06-01-2005, 02:53 PM
Question: Zip Ties....I have this picture in my mind of garbage bag twist ties when I hear this but now that I think of it it must be longer strips of white plastic that zip together when looped and pulled, right?
Right, they are often referred to as Cable Ties/straps
Question: Zip Ties....I have this picture in my mind of garbage bag twist ties when I hear this but now that I think of it it must be longer strips of white plastic that zip together when looped and pulled, right? Yea, they have little ridges on them and one end goes through a little square or loop, when pulled it locks it in place. You can buy them at a lot of places. Just thinking out loud here, they may be used in many occupations, to bundle things, like wires, etc. My hubby works for telephone co. and always has a handful in his tool pouch. :blushing: Electricians might use them. Cablemen, electronics.
Lots of uses.
close_enough
06-01-2005, 02:55 PM
Question: Zip Ties....I have this picture in my mind of garbage bag twist ties when I hear this but now that I think of it it must be longer strips of white plastic that zip together when looped and pulled, right?
right joan....you loop them, & they're almost impossible to get off of clothing, & whatnot, unless you cut them w/a knife or scissors...
close_enough
06-01-2005, 03:00 PM
He may have passed out again, and they left him for dead when the female returned. These two cases are similar IMO.
they're similar as far as the zip ties, i agree...the guy was beaten up, but he wasn't brutally beat to death...these folks wanted his money, atm, credit cards...he gave them the pin number for his card, she got the money, came back to the house, & they left.....much different, imo.....not to say that i don't hope it has something to do w/these murders...would make it much easier/more quickly to get to the bottom of it, that's for sure.....
close_enough
06-01-2005, 03:02 PM
Yea, they have little ridges on them and one end goes through a little square or loop, when pulled it locks it in place. You can buy them at a lot of places. Just thinking out loud here, they may be used in many occupations, to bundle things, like wires, etc. My hubby works for telephone co. and always has a handful in his tool pouch. :blushing: Electricians might use them. Cablemen, electronics.
Lots of uses.
thought of another thing they're used for....toys are sometimes attached to the insides of the boxes they come in....
close_enough
06-01-2005, 03:40 PM
Could it be that he didn't want to report the crime because there might be drugs involved?
that's what i figure....he met a guy at a bar on the evening of the 17th...went home w/the guy...the girl & another guy was there....i got the impression that they were up all night, partying....
close_enough
06-01-2005, 03:43 PM
The article says they stole his car. Did they leave their cars at his place? Were they stolen and from where?
the only thing i thought was, when the woman brought this man back home, they were followed by the 2 other guys...when they left, the 2 guys split up, & one took his car....
thought of another thing they're used for....toys are sometimes attached to the insides of the boxes they come in....
Don't the police use these same zip ties as handcuffs? As well as our military over in Iraq?
When this thread was begun a couple days ago, about this Post Falls crime involving zip-ties, I had a strong feeling come over me that zip ties had been used for binding the victims in the Wolf Lodge murders. It creeped me out when I saw my noon news today, hearing that LE are pursuing that avenue.
I hope another feeling I'm having doesn't end up being true. That would be that the perps wore gloves so that no incriminating fingerprints were left behind. I'd sure hate to see this murder go unsolved!
close_enough
06-01-2005, 04:17 PM
Don't the police use these same zip ties as handcuffs? As well as our military over in Iraq?
When this thread was begun a couple days ago, about this Post Falls crime involving zip-ties, I had a strong feeling come over me that zip ties had been used for binding the victims in the Wolf Lodge murders. It creeped me out when I saw my noon news today, hearing that LE are pursuing that avenue.
I hope another feeling I'm having doesn't end up being true. That would be that the perps wore gloves so that no incriminating fingerprints were left behind. I'd sure hate to see this murder go unsolved!
yes...i don't know if they're the same, but it's definately the type of zip ties that LE uses...i agree..gloves being used sure seems the case, so far anyway....IF these people in Post Falls are the killers, at least they are in jail right now, but i'm w/Rle7...where is Shasta & Dylan?
off to eat pizza & think....WS is wonderful!...i knew i'd get caught up here...great observations & the best for news links...
dannyodie
06-01-2005, 07:06 PM
thought of another thing they're used for....toys are sometimes attached to the insides of the boxes they come in....
there are three specific types of these " zip " ties, each come in several different sizes also. the first type is with the ribbed back on it which is fed through a slotted channel and slips through a plastic latch which locks each time it passes a ridge which prevents back slippage. the other two are similar, one being the same as above with the exception, the latch on it is a small tab of metal. then the last type is a smooth plastic strip on both sides and slips through a channel with a metal clip as well. law enforcement most typically use the one zip tie which has a ribbed back and the metal strip. the smooth ones are not sold at the same type of places as the others. those are mostly special electronics divisions that use them for a more precise adjustment over small wiring harnesses.
Has anything been said about whether the victims' wallets were in the house?
LE hasn't said, 1986. You'd think that if they suspected 'robbery' as the motive, they'd have announced it by now.
Of course, they haven't told us a whole lot.
Robbery in Post Falls
In thinking about the robbery in Post Falls and how it might relate to this case I was wondering about the wallets and any banking info that may have been in the house. If robbery were the motive, I would think that the wallets as well as checking acct info would be missing. But I'm sure that LE has already checked with the bank and such. Just wish we could hear something.
CaliKid
06-02-2005, 02:47 AM
Maybe the reason the Post Falls victim survived where the three in CdA didn't was due to cooperation. Maybe Mark or Brenda fought back or Slade surprised them by coming to his mother's defense and the perps became enraged and killed them. Just a thought.
Maybe the reason the Post Falls victim survived where the three in CdA didn't was due to cooperation. Maybe Mark or Brenda fought back or Slade surprised them by coming to his mother's defense and the perps became enraged and killed them. Just a thought.
That's good thinking! :)
I think it's safe to assume that LE are checking out the perps from the Post Falls crime that are sitting in jail in Spokane. And, checking them out thoroughly!
CaliKid
06-02-2005, 11:25 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is that if the same three people murdered Brenda, Mark and Slade, you would think they'd have enough common sense to lie low for awhile or leave the area before trying it again.
The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is that if the same three people murdered Brenda, Mark and Slade, you would think they'd have enough common sense to lie low for awhile or leave the area before trying it again.
Even though it hasn't been proven that those perps were on meth....I'd venture to guess that might've been the basis for their crime - to support their habit.
In my way of thinking, common sense is probably not very abundant in anyone smoking or snorting drugs that quite possibly could be made from drano crystals.
In fact, it eludes me as to how anyone can really be so stupid - to use that crap!?! :confused:
CaliKid
06-03-2005, 01:20 AM
I know people who have used meth, and in some cases, all it takes is one experiment to get hooked. Drug use across the board prevents people from developing emotionally and mentally- teenagers who regularly use never grow up or mature. It's like a 14 or 15 year old mentality in the body of someone who is in their 20's or 30's.
I know people who have used meth, and in some cases, all it takes is one experiment to get hooked. Drug use across the board prevents people from developing emotionally and mentally- teenagers who regularly use never grow up or mature. It's like a 14 or 15 year old mentality in the body of someone who is in their 20's or 30's.
Maybe that explains what happened to Scott Peterson then! 30 yr old man stuck back in his mind of 17!
Could it have been meth rage that set him off, that he killed Laci? Maybe that's why he used that strange term of being "jazzed up", after being transferred to San Quentin.
Since studying meth regarding this case, I have come to learn that 'jazzed' is a term associated with meth usage.
joanofarc
06-08-2005, 10:52 AM
Robbery in Post Falls
In thinking about the robbery in Post Falls and how it might relate to this case I was wondering about the wallets and any banking info that may have been in the house. If robbery were the motive, I would think that the wallets as well as checking acct info would be missing. But I'm sure that LE has already checked with the bank and such. Just wish we could hear something.
I am thinking that Brenda and Mark didn't have any money so I doubt robbery was the motive....I think I remember reading Mark went to visit his dad to borrow some money so their finances could of not been in good shape if this is true....yet, does anyone know for sure when it was that Mark went to visit his dad to ask him for money...I thought it was around the weekend of the murders, maybe even that Sunday but Steve, Marks brother went to visit their dad on that particular Sunday as Brenda and Mark kept his son for him while he went to see his dad.....:waitasec: ...help if someone knows for sure!!
I am thinking that Brenda and Mark didn't have any money so I doubt robbery was the motive....I think I remember reading Mark went to visit his dad to borrow some money so their finances could of not been in good shape if this is true....yet, does anyone know for sure when it was that Mark went to visit his dad to ask him for money...I thought it was around the weekend of the murders, maybe even that Sunday but Steve, Marks brother went to visit their dad on that particular Sunday as Brenda and Mark kept his son for him while he went to see his dad.....:waitasec: ...help if someone knows for sure!!
According to Mark's father's neighbor, Mark and Brenda and the kids were at his father's house in Kingston, Idaho, on Sunday morning. The neighbor said that Mark had gone overboard on his finances and Mark's father had loaned him some money. The neighbor said that Mark was paying his father back a little at a time.
joanofarc
06-08-2005, 11:29 AM
According to Mark's father's neighbor, Mark and Brenda and the kids were at his father's house in Kingston, Idaho, on Sunday morning. The neighbor said that Mark had gone overboard on his finances and Mark's father had loaned him some money. The neighbor said that Mark was paying his father back a little at a time.Thanks Rle7...at least I wasn't dreaming...lol
Weird that the neighbour would report this information instead of Mark's dad himself....how many neighbours would you tell of what is going on with one of your kid's personal lives....especially if they are having troubles with money....why would the neighbour be privy to this information...unless some of the "talk" involved him...
I guess he could just be a "close personal friend" of Ralph's but STILL :eek:
According to Mark's father's neighbor, Mark and Brenda and the kids were at his father's house in Kingston, Idaho, on Sunday morning. The neighbor said that Mark had gone overboard on his finances and Mark's father had loaned him some money. The neighbor said that Mark was paying his father back a little at a time.
Not discounting what you are reporting, Rle7, because I think I saw that same neighbor on a news report. But ... we've all heard about how often eye witnesses are mistaken. (Remember all the 'Laci dog-walking' sightings on 12/24?) Especially with the added stress of a horrific crime, like this. I truly wonder if Mark and the family may have actually visited on Saturday? I wonder if Ralph has verified that it was Sunday.
Anyway, I keep thinking about what a really busy day that fateful Sunday must have been for Mark, Brenda and the kids.
They allegedly all went over to Mark's Dad's in Kingston (according to that neighbor). They were at home when Mark's brother Steve dropped his son off. Wasn't Mark stacking or cutting wood then? Edited to correct, he was Unloading wood.
They were home when Steve's long time hunter friend (whose name escapes me (eta: Ken Francis)) stopped by. Mark allegedly (according to Mark's mom) went and got hamburgers and fries in town (Coeur d'Alene).
They were home when Steve went back to pick up his son, and Steve said they were thinking of renting some movies (another trip to town?). Lutner, admittedly, went by at some point. And, at some other point, according to Lutner, more friends came by for a party-barbecue-get-together. Sounds like a lot going on there, to me.
Here's a question that's been on my mind a bit. Why would Steve drop his kid off at Mark's to play with Brenda's kids; instead of taking that child to see their grandparent? I know the logical reason, is that the child didn't want to go to grandpa's and would rather play with 'cousins'. But wouldn't the grandparent want to see their grandchild, too?
Does anyone know where Steve McKenzie lives? How much of an inconvenience to drop his child off and then come back and pick his child up later would that be? And, why didn't they all just meet at Ralph's, where everyone could visit?
I'm sure LE has already checked out everyone's story. And, it's good that Steve's child did get to play with Shasta, Dylan and perhaps Slade that day. Just questions that have been on my mind.
Tom'sGirl
06-08-2005, 10:12 PM
Not discounting what you are reporting, Rle7, because I think I saw that same neighbor on a news report. But ... we've all heard about how often eye witnesses are mistaken. (Remember all the 'Laci dog-walking' sightings on 12/24?) Especially with the added stress of a horrific crime, like this. I truly wonder if Mark and the family may have actually visited on Saturday? I wonder if Ralph has verified that it was Sunday.
Anyway, I keep thinking about what a really busy day that fateful Sunday must have been for Mark, Brenda and the kids.
They allegedly all went over to Mark's Dad's in Kingston (according to that neighbor). They were at home when Mark's brother Steve dropped his son off. Wasn't Mark stacking or cutting wood then?
They were home when Steve's long time hunter friend (whose name escapes me) stopped by. Mark allegedly (according to Mark's mom) went and got hamburgers and fries in town (Coeur d'Alene).
They were home when Steve went back to pick up his son, and Steve said they were thinking of renting some movies (another trip to town?). Lutner, admittedly, went by at some point. And, at some other point, according to Lutner, more friends came by for a party-barbecue-get-together. Sounds like a lot going on there, to me.
Here's a question that's been on my mind a bit. Why would Steve drop his kid off at Mark's to play with Brenda's kids; instead of taking that child to see their grandparent? I know the logical reason, is that the child didn't want to go to grandpa's and would rather play with 'cousins'. But wouldn't the grandparent want to see their grandchild, too?
Does anyone know where Steve McKenzie lives? How much of an inconvenience to drop his child off and then come back and pick his child up later would that be? And, why didn't they all just meet at Ralph's, where everyone could visit?
I'm sure LE has already checked out everyone's story. And, it's good that Steve's child did get to play with Shasta, Dylan and perhaps Slade that day. Just questions that have been on my mind.
Liz, didn't Steve Groene drop off his kid and go visit their brother, not their dad? I'm probably wrong, will have to go through a bunch of posts to make sure.
Liz, didn't Steve Groene drop off his kid and go visit their brother, not their dad? I'm probably wrong, will have to go through a bunch of posts to make sure.
Steve McKenzie said he stopped by his brother's Wolf Lodge area home that afternoon and left his son there to play with Shasta and Dylan while he went to visit Ralph McKenzie, Steve and Mark's father. Later, he returned to pick up his son.
I believe the third brother's name is Jimmie.
Tom'sGirl
06-08-2005, 11:05 PM
I believe the third brother's name is Jimmie.
Ouch, my bad:doh: you're right Liz, so sorry.
Tom'sGirl
06-08-2005, 11:13 PM
They were home when Steve's long time hunter friend (whose name escapes me (eta: Ken Francis)) stopped by. Mark allegedly (according to Mark's mom) went and got hamburgers and fries in town (Coeur d'Alene).
Ken Francis, Mark McKenzie's friend and hunting buddy of 20-some years, said he also stopped by after spending a good part of the day bear hunting and looking for deer and elk antlers. He and Mark shared the same tattoo, "Brue Crue."
"If I was in the area, I always stopped by," Francis said. "I knew he was there. Now he's not there anymore, and it's hard."
Like Steve McKenzie, Francis said he didn't get any indication that there was a problem or some wild party on the evening's agenda.
Also, wasn't it said that Marks mom had spoken with Mark a few day prior to the murders? How was it that she knew that Mark had gone to by burgers & fries?
Tammie63
06-09-2005, 01:51 AM
First time poster but have been reading for a while. I can't find where it says that Marks mom said he bought burgers? I was thinking some people think a bbq is slowly cooking all day and having burgers is just grilling. Perhaps she meant that they didn't have a bbq cook-out but just grilled some burgers..some thing quick and easy. Hope this makes sense.
First time poster but have been reading for a while. I can't find where it says that Marks mom said he bought burgers? I was thinking some people think a bbq is slowly cooking all day and having burgers is just grilling. Perhaps she meant that they didn't have a bbq cook-out but just grilled some burgers..some thing quick and easy. Hope this makes sense.
Hi Tammie, and welcome to websleuths! :)
I found this link (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:I7kh45aPo58J:www.angelsmissing.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t1428.html+Lee+Wood+said+Mark+got+hamburgers+and+f ries&hl=en&ie=UTF-8), but you'll have to scroll down a ways until you get to May 25th article which mentions Mark's mom, Lee Wood, saying that Mark had gone into town to get hamburgers and fries for himself, Brenda and the kids. She claimed the barbecue didn't happen that Sunday.
It's hard to figure out who to believe, because either the person is a criminal, or deceased or not talking or law enforcement. And, we know law enforcement doesn't have to tell the truth, if it aids in their investigation. Soooo ... :crazy:
There are a lot of articles posted at that link, in their entirety, for those that might be interested.
Tammie, glad you posted and am looking forward to more of your posts! :)
close_enough
06-09-2005, 08:32 AM
First time poster but have been reading for a while. I can't find where it says that Marks mom said he bought burgers? I was thinking some people think a bbq is slowly cooking all day and having burgers is just grilling. Perhaps she meant that they didn't have a bbq cook-out but just grilled some burgers..some thing quick and easy. Hope this makes sense.
actually, that's what i've kind of thought, the entire time....IF there was a BBQ, i think it was simply throwing a few burgers/hotdogs on a grill....not sure why i think that, but i do.....i've never thought of it as a big shin-dig, with someone standing over the grill w/a chef's hat on, grilling all afternoon....
Posted: May 24, 2005
Robbery in Post Falls leaves victim beaten
http://www.ruralnorthwest.com/artman/publish/article_5017.shtml
Last weekend, it was repeatedly announced on Spokane news that the police were trying to locate the shotgun used in the commission of this crime. Apparently the butt of the weapon was what was used in the beating of the victim. They were asking anyone who knew the whereabouts of the "Mossberg" shotgun, to call "Secret Witness" in Spokane. (Other specs of the weapon were given, but I cannot recall what they were other than the manufacturer.)
That was the last I've heard of it, and have not been able to locate any articles on line to substaniate this report. So, take it fwiw.
Last weekend, it was repeatedly announced on Spokane news that the police were trying to locate the shotgun used in the commission of this crime. Apparently the butt of the weapon was what was used in the beating of the victim. They were asking anyone who knew the whereabouts of the "Mossberg" shotgun, to call "Secret Witness" in Spokane. (Other specs of the weapon were given, but I cannot recall what they were other than the manufacturer.)
That was the last I've heard of it, and have not been able to locate any articles on line to substaniate this report. So, take it fwiw.
Thanks Liz. Interesting. I read an article that stated that a baseball bat was used. The Post Falls victim was left for dead (IMO) because he was unconscious. I think I saved it on my computer at home, I will have to look for it. I have been looking for these three people on line. If the three of them were originally from the Spokane area, I wonder if Vance knew them when he lived there!! For some reason I have a gut feeling that similar circumstance so close in time isn't a coincidence...unless use of zip-ties and beating people about the head is the norm in that area!! :(
dragonfly
06-15-2005, 03:31 PM
I am a brand new poster, like Tammie I have been reading and learning and doing a lot of thinking about these murders and kidnappings. I have two theories. My first theory is based on information I read and my gut instincts as to what might have happened in this case. I guess I want to think this has a simple rather than complex answer. See what you think.
I go back to maybe six – nine months before the murders. Vance states that Brenda felt Mark drifting away.
My impression is this is about the time the drug involvement starts escalating seriously. Brenda is using drugs to escape the fears or stress of “what happens if Mark decides to leave me and the kids” Mark has got to be asking himself sometimes…How did I get involved is such a crazy family with all the criminal involvement. The arrest of Jesse is about this time. Brenda states she doesn’t have the money to pay an attorney claims to be $50,000 in debt. All of this is added stress on Mark who is already having financial problems (try to borrow money from his dad).
Vance who is living there at the time is upset with what he sees going on, or feels is changing in the household. The stress is increasing! He decides to move out. Could have been a major fight prior to that happening. He might have confronted his mother with his concerns about her increasing drug use. She might have said have told him if he didn’t like it he could leave. I am sure Vance spoke with his dad Steve Groene about this. Maybe to enhance HIS side of the conflict he told his dad all about what he saw happening especially the new increase in drug involvement. Steve Groene is no stranger to drugs and what their impact can be on people and those around them. He was at his own admission heavily involved in drugs but now clean. The way he spoke of this fact you could tell he was like a “holier than thou ex-smoker”. The information from Vance really would have set Steve off. His two innocent kids now so exposed to the drug scene described by Vance. Vance could have told him that it was only a matter of time before something terrible was going to happen. So Steve is thinking “I’ve got to get those kids out of there!” Maybe when he had scheduled his vacation and asked Brenda to see the kids he was planning to take the kids away. When she flat out refused to let him see his kids by saying he hadn’t scheduled it, I am sure this made him furious. “Schedule or not schedule, those kids have to be removed!” he decides. Vance could have told his dad about the routine of folks dropping buy to make their buys on the weekends.
Sunday the day of the murders, I don’t believe there was any barbeque. It was just like Mark’s mother stated. Mark went out for hamburgers later. All the activity on Sunday was drug buying and selling. Lutner was there to do one or the other. He only comes to the house by himself without his girlfriend or kids. He is not there to attend a neighbor’s family barbeque. He was there at that house several times over the weekend. The “Barbeque” is the only excuse he could come up with when asked why he was there. Those that were there ahead of him that day they were there for similar reasons. That is why they didn’t come forward immediately. And I don’t think they all did come forward. This is a group of people who are living in fear right now. Lutner is in jail for his own protection. I think the wording “Barbeque” was LE word or a way of giving a legitimate name to the activity so that maybe some of those who were there would be more comfortable in coming forward.
I think Lutner made his buy and left knowing there were still people there..chances are he might not have known them like he said or would be afraid to name names. If it were just a group of drug buyers showing up he might not have known them.
If the drugs were stashed upstairs and Lutner was taken there he know what was there, how much and where Brenda kept it. Brenda might have done the same with others. I don’t think you have the kind of “activity” that draws attention like the campground lady notice unless you have a pretty good drug trade going. Even Brian from next door knew Sunday was the day to show up for his supply but got there late. My god what could he do? He sure wasn’t going to call LE. But had to cover his track in case someone saw him there and he didn’t report being there at all.
I think the Sunday activity slowed down, it was time for dinner and Mark took off to CdL
for hamburgers and fries and maybe stopped to pick up a rental movie. The two young kids Shasta and Dylan would have wanted to go with Mark and I think they did.
While they are gone Steve and Vance arrive to take the two kids. Brenda and Slade are home alone. They enter the house looking for Dylan and Shasta. Brenda and Steve start fighting. Both Steve and Vance have reasons to be angry with Brenda and have a debt to settle. They come in with bats, z-ties, and gloves planning to get what they want and leave no evidence. The idea is to make it look like a drug hit. They are in the process of beating Brenda and poor Slade is doing all he can to protect his mom. They are probably being ask” Where are the kids?!?” The interrogation turns bloody and the rage results in both Brenda and Slade’s death.
Mark returns home with the hamburgers with the two kids in his car. He hears the screams and throws open the door of the truck, which remains open, running inside to help and yelling at the kids “Get back in the car!” When he enters the house he is confronted with the same fate as Brenda and Slade. I don’t think the two kids even came in the house.
There was blood all over… in every room. Unless the victims legs were bound and even if their hands were bound behind them they could still run from room to room try to avoid being hit over the head. What I haven’t heard anyone mention is DOES LE have the perp footprint in the blood? They would have to. Maybe not fingerprint if they had on gloves but definitely footprints. No problems with the dogs because the dogs knew them. The pit bull was Vance’s pet.
Now we have Vance and Steve covered in blood head to toe. And two kids in the car outside. What happens next?
I don’t think that Steve and Vance drove over to Brenda and Mark place. They would have been parked in front of Marks truck when he returned. I think they parked at the campground and came through the woods.. At this point they need to get away quick, they grab the kids. They carry them back to their vehicle. If they came prepared to beat people to death with bats, they must have had a plan to clean up or change clothes before getting back in their car. They would not want to leave blood evidence in their own vehicle. They might have showered at the campground but I don’t think they would have wanted to take the time. I think they took their bloody clothes off put them in garbage bags and had another set of clothes and shoes ready to change into. (I think this is what the FBI was searching for at the landfill but didn’t find.) They must have planned where they would take the kid and that is where they are now. I think Steve, Vance and probably Brenda’s mother, Darlene know exactly where they are. I also suspect LE has a good idea this is the case and hey no need to continue to search. It’s now just a waiting game. I think they are watching both Steve and Vance. Both were talking up till they decided to clam up and use spokes people. When I watch the interviews with Steve I can’t help but sense that this guy has something to hide.
If you listen to what Steve and Vance say to the LE and media they both want to paint Brenda and Mark as drug involved people. They want to point the finger of suspicion in that direction away from themselves. “Please, release my children, they had nothing to do with ANY OF THIS” We find out the most about Brenda’s drug use and possible problem with drugs from Vance’s statements. He sure doesn’t paint a pretty picture of the family life or his mother.
LE now tell us they think this is a crime of passion, not money or drugs. This is the only way I see the murders could have happened with a crime of passion involved.
I know there is lots of reason that you will have trouble believing Steve and Vance could be guilty, but there are also reasons to consider them too.
Thanks Liz. Interesting. I read an article that stated that a baseball bat was used. The Post Falls victim was left for dead (IMO) because he was unconscious. I think I saved it on my computer at home, I will have to look for it. I have been looking for these three people on line. If the three of them were originally from the Spokane area, I wonder if Vance knew them when he lived there!! For some reason I have a gut feeling that similar circumstance so close in time isn't a coincidence...unless use of zip-ties and beating people about the head is the norm in that area!! :(
You're welcome, Lili. Yes, you're right that previous articles did mention a baseball bat being used. That was the first thing I noticed, too.
So I don't know if they used both, or what the deal is. I think it's interesting that LE got the detailed description of the Mossberg shotgun. One of the perps must have given that to LE, I'd assume. How else would they have known? It sounded like a hunting rifle to me. (Wondering could it have been stolen from Mark?)
The victim certainly wasn't doing much talking in this case. Which is something similar to the Groene/McKenzie case ... nobody seems to be volunteering much info, and everyone seems too scared to speak out. Remember the memorial service --- the only one to speak was Jesse. And, he's somewhat protected by being in jail.
I know I am just as baffled as ever about out this case, if not more so. :confused:
I am a brand new poster, like Tammie I have been reading and learning and doing a lot of thinking about these murders and kidnappings. I have two theories. My first theory is based on information I read and my gut instincts as to what might have happened in this case. I guess I want to think this has a simple rather than complex answer. See what you think.
LE now tell us they think this is a crime of passion, not money or drugs. This is the only way I see the murders could have happened with a crime of passion involved.
I know there is lots of reason that you will have trouble believing Steve and Vance could be guilty, but there are also reasons to consider them too.
Hi Dragonfly and welcome aboard!
You put a lot of thought into your post and I think that your theory is very plausible. Like Occam's Razor, simple theory usually is most probable.
I think many posters would hate to see a family member involved in such a horrific crime. But, imo, it would be within the realm of possibilities. And in most cases, more likely than not, that a family member could and would be involved.
About this being a 'crime of passion', I had not heard that tidbit yet. Interesting.
Again, welcome and I look forward to reading more of your input about this case! :)
dragonfly
06-15-2005, 05:04 PM
Thanks, Liz
I was off finding out what the Occam Razor was all about...interesting!
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach... iew.com&hl=en (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:W0c9LHXCJ94J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D74077+Groene+children+site:spokes manreview.com&hl=en) This link gives some recent disccussion with LE Watson speaking of the "nature" of the crimes.
CaliKid
06-15-2005, 07:05 PM
Dragonfly,
Supposedly Steve Groene passed a polygraph; the only question he failed was "Where are the kids", but LE is apparently convinced he had nothing to do with the deaths because he was let go. I don't know if they polygraphed Vance, but judging from his early interviews and his demeanor at his mother and brother's funeral, I don't think he's guilty either.
However, I DO think Steve and/or Vance knows who is involved.
Your views about the barbeque make a lot of sense to me. We only have Lutner's and the other participants word that a bbq took place on Sunday, and Mark's mother says he bought burgers and fries in town. Maybe they do use the term "BBQ" to mean drug transactions.
Wayne
06-15-2005, 07:11 PM
Dragonfly,
Supposedly Steve Groene passed a polygraph; the only question he failed was "Where are the kids", but LE is apparently convinced he had nothing to do with the deaths because he was let go. I don't know if they polygraphed Vance, but judging from his early interviews and his demeanor at his mother and brother's funeral, I don't think he's guilty either.
However, I DO think Steve and/or Vance knows who is involved.
Your views about the barbeque make a lot of sense to me. We only have Lutner's and the other participants word that a bbq took place on Sunday, and Mark's mother says he bought burgers and fries in town. Maybe they do use the term "BBQ" to mean drug transactions.
I agree - I too think Steve and/or Vance knows who is involved or they know the key people at the top of the chain.
Wayne
06-15-2005, 07:26 PM
Welcome Dragonfly...
You really thought out your post from a crime of passion view. You did a fine job.
The one thing I disagree is that LE seems very certain the children were in the home at the time of the killings. Whether LE used the children's footprints or mud tracks, they seem certain the children were in the home - and are very possibly witnesses to the killings.
Are you suggesting LE issued misleading information about that aspect of the tragedy?
Wayne
06-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Thanks, Liz
I was off finding out what the Occam Razor was all about...interesting!
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach... iew.com&hl=en (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:W0c9LHXCJ94J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D74077+Groene+children+site:spokes manreview.com&hl=en) This link gives some recent disccussion with LE Watson speaking of the "nature" of the crimes.
Great article...
Thanks for posting that article.
The following section stands out in my mind:
More than 1,700 tips have been fielded by volunteers at Kootenai County's Emergency Operations Center, and while none yet have resulted in a big break in the case, Sheriff Rocky Watson said investigators are not discouraged.
"It's a long ways from a cold case or a dead end," Watson said Wednesday. "Every day there can't be breaking news. This is what makes investigators and investigations, when they keep the enthusiasm on the boring, tedious portions of it."
Watson described the dozens of investigators, who are broken up into teams chasing different leads, as dogged about pursuing every possible lead. Still assisting Kootenai County are Idaho State Police and FBI investigators.
"There's always something to keep enthusiasm or motivation going," he said. "They've got leads following all traditional paths and there's a lot of leads."
Sheriff's officials still are reluctant to release many details of the murder of Slade, his 40-year-old mother, Brenda Groene, and Brenda's 37-year-old boyfriend, Mark McKenzie. Details that only the murderer would know are more valuable to the investigation when only the detectives know them, he said.
Watson said his opinion – not necessarily backed by the evidence, he cautioned – is that the crime was premeditated because the killer or killers brought items to the scene to carry out the crime.
"It wasn't spontaneous," he said. Still, it doesn't fit any traditional crime scenes in his experience, he said.
"It was a highly emotional crime scene, a violent crime scene," he said. "Real violent crimes are usually driven by love, money or drugs."
But Groene and McKenzie didn't have a lot of money, nor did they appear to be heavily involved in drugs, he said. While the two adult victims did have methamphetamine and marijuana in their systems, according to the autopsy, Watson described them more as recreational users.
"This is what I would expect (from) a Colombia drug lord sending a message to a dealer," he said. "But these people didn't have big drug or money issues."
Perhaps Steve and Vance are not aware of how deep Brenda was involved in the drug scene? Perhaps Brenda was in deeper than anyone had thought? Deep enough to be treated like a dealer sending a message? Maybe she was heavily involved and hid her tracks well?
dragonfly
06-15-2005, 10:14 PM
"The one thing I disagree is that LE seems very certain the children were in the home at the time of the killings. Whether LE used the children's footprints or mud tracks, they seem certain the children were in the home - and are very possibly witnesses to the killings."
This is from Wayne's post.
Sorry I don't know how to capture the quotes.
I think I remember Captain W saying "We think the kids were home at the time of the killing because where else would they be"(or something to that effect) We hope they did NOTwitness this horrific scene. I don't really recall any statement or evidence that says they were actually in the house when it happened. I could be wrong or have miss this.
Wayne
06-15-2005, 11:29 PM
"The one thing I disagree is that LE seems very certain the children were in the home at the time of the killings. Whether LE used the children's footprints or mud tracks, they seem certain the children were in the home - and are very possibly witnesses to the killings."
This is from Wayne's post.
Sorry I don't know how to capture the quotes.
I think I remember Captain W saying "We think the kids were home at the time of the killing because where else would they be"(or something to that effect) We hope they did NOTwitness this horrific scene. I don't really recall any statement or evidence that says they were actually in the house when it happened. I could be wrong or have miss this.
From the Nancy Grace show on May 20th
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/20/ng.01.html
What was said was:
CHO: Well, here is what we can tell you. And it was quite shocking, quite frankly, when I heard it early this morning. Captain Wolfinger was on one of our earlier shows on "AMERICAN MORNING." And he at one point said, you know, this was a horrible thing for the children to witness.
And our colleague, Bill Hemmer, had asked, "Wait a minute. You said something interesting there. Do you believe that the children witnessed this crime?" And he said, "Yes, I believe they did," which was quite surprising. We had not heard that before. But he does, indeed, believe that the children witnessed the murders. What happened afterwards, Nancy, is a big, open question.
And I have other references, too.
dragonfly
06-16-2005, 09:28 AM
Thanks, Wayne. I missed the Nancy Grace interviews.
It's really heart breaking to think about this scenario. Somehow I had hoped they had been spare this horrific incident.
It's really heart breaking to think about this scenario. Somehow I had hoped they had been spare this horrific incident.
It truly is, dragonfly. Personally I prefer to remain in denial about that aspect of this crime. I just can't bare to think that those children witnessed that atrocity. :(
On a lighter note, dragonfly, I see you mastered the "quote option". I meant to send you a "how to" PM, but it slipped my mind. Good to see you learning your way around. :)
Lili, there was something in one of your posts yesterday (I think) about Vance possibly knowing the three creeps (that mugged that guy in Post Falls), from when he lived in Spokane. Somehow I missed that piece of info; but I take it you have it on good authority that Vance had previously lived in Spokane. Do you happen to know how long ago he lived there?
That would be interesting, as I'm quite sure there is way more youth gang type activity in Spokane than there would be in CdA. hmmm... I keep trying to envision the tat Vance had on the back of his neck; and at times I keep thinking it may have been a "1%" sign! (Not sure though, so don't take it as gospel!)
Wayne
06-16-2005, 04:11 PM
It truly is, dragonfly. Personally I prefer to remain in denial about that aspect of this crime. I just can't bare to think that those children witnessed that atrocity. :(
On a lighter note, dragonfly, I see you mastered the "quote option". I meant to send you a "how to" PM, but it slipped my mind. Good to see you learning your way around. :)
Lili, there was something in one of your posts yesterday (I think) about Vance possibly knowing the three creeps that mugged that guy in Post Falls, from when he lived in Spokane. Somehow I missed that piece of info; but I take it you have it on good authority that Vance had previously lived in Spokane. Do you happen to know how long ago he lived there?
That would be interesting, as I'm quite sure there is way more youth gang type activity in Spokane than there would be in CdA. hmmm... I keep trying to envision the tat Vance had on the back of his neck; and at times I keep thinking it may have been a "1%" sign! (Not sure though, so don't take it as gospel!)
I read Vance Groene had a juvenile record that was serious enough to be sentenced to the state juvenile detention facility:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/news01.txt
Vance Robert Groene served time in the state's juvenile detection facility in St. Anthony for stealing a firearm, possession of drug paraphernalia and burglary. He has a Coeur d'Alene address.
I have not seen any mention of him living in Spokane Washington - about 30-miles west of Coeur d'Alene - but I could have missed it.
close_enough
06-17-2005, 08:18 PM
I am a brand new poster, like Tammie I have been reading and learning and doing a lot of thinking about these murders and kidnappings. I have two theories. My first theory is based on information I read and my gut instincts as to what might have happened in this case. I guess I want to think this has a simple rather than complex answer. See what you think.
I go back to maybe six – nine months before the murders. Vance states that Brenda felt Mark drifting away.
My impression is this is about the time the drug involvement starts escalating seriously. Brenda is using drugs to escape the fears or stress of “what happens if Mark decides to leave me and the kids” Mark has got to be asking himself sometimes…How did I get involved is such a crazy family with all the criminal involvement. The arrest of Jesse is about this time. Brenda states she doesn’t have the money to pay an attorney claims to be $50,000 in debt. All of this is added stress on Mark who is already having financial problems (try to borrow money from his dad).
Vance who is living there at the time is upset with what he sees going on, or feels is changing in the household. The stress is increasing! He decides to move out. Could have been a major fight prior to that happening. He might have confronted his mother with his concerns about her increasing drug use. She might have said have told him if he didn’t like it he could leave. I am sure Vance spoke with his dad Steve Groene about this. Maybe to enhance HIS side of the conflict he told his dad all about what he saw happening especially the new increase in drug involvement. Steve Groene is no stranger to drugs and what their impact can be on people and those around them. He was at his own admission heavily involved in drugs but now clean. The way he spoke of this fact you could tell he was like a “holier than thou ex-smoker”. The information from Vance really would have set Steve off. His two innocent kids now so exposed to the drug scene described by Vance. Vance could have told him that it was only a matter of time before something terrible was going to happen. So Steve is thinking “I’ve got to get those kids out of there!” Maybe when he had scheduled his vacation and asked Brenda to see the kids he was planning to take the kids away. When she flat out refused to let him see his kids by saying he hadn’t scheduled it, I am sure this made him furious. “Schedule or not schedule, those kids have to be removed!” he decides. Vance could have told his dad about the routine of folks dropping buy to make their buys on the weekends.
Sunday the day of the murders, I don’t believe there was any barbeque. It was just like Mark’s mother stated. Mark went out for hamburgers later. All the activity on Sunday was drug buying and selling. Lutner was there to do one or the other. He only comes to the house by himself without his girlfriend or kids. He is not there to attend a neighbor’s family barbeque. He was there at that house several times over the weekend. The “Barbeque” is the only excuse he could come up with when asked why he was there. Those that were there ahead of him that day they were there for similar reasons. That is why they didn’t come forward immediately. And I don’t think they all did come forward. This is a group of people who are living in fear right now. Lutner is in jail for his own protection. I think the wording “Barbeque” was LE word or a way of giving a legitimate name to the activity so that maybe some of those who were there would be more comfortable in coming forward.
I think Lutner made his buy and left knowing there were still people there..chances are he might not have known them like he said or would be afraid to name names. If it were just a group of drug buyers showing up he might not have known them.
If the drugs were stashed upstairs and Lutner was taken there he know what was there, how much and where Brenda kept it. Brenda might have done the same with others. I don’t think you have the kind of “activity” that draws attention like the campground lady notice unless you have a pretty good drug trade going. Even Brian from next door knew Sunday was the day to show up for his supply but got there late. My god what could he do? He sure wasn’t going to call LE. But had to cover his track in case someone saw him there and he didn’t report being there at all.
I think the Sunday activity slowed down, it was time for dinner and Mark took off to CdL
for hamburgers and fries and maybe stopped to pick up a rental movie. The two young kids Shasta and Dylan would have wanted to go with Mark and I think they did.
While they are gone Steve and Vance arrive to take the two kids. Brenda and Slade are home alone. They enter the house looking for Dylan and Shasta. Brenda and Steve start fighting. Both Steve and Vance have reasons to be angry with Brenda and have a debt to settle. They come in with bats, z-ties, and gloves planning to get what they want and leave no evidence. The idea is to make it look like a drug hit. They are in the process of beating Brenda and poor Slade is doing all he can to protect his mom. They are probably being ask” Where are the kids?!?” The interrogation turns bloody and the rage results in both Brenda and Slade’s death.
Mark returns home with the hamburgers with the two kids in his car. He hears the screams and throws open the door of the truck, which remains open, running inside to help and yelling at the kids “Get back in the car!” When he enters the house he is confronted with the same fate as Brenda and Slade. I don’t think the two kids even came in the house.
There was blood all over… in every room. Unless the victims legs were bound and even if their hands were bound behind them they could still run from room to room try to avoid being hit over the head. What I haven’t heard anyone mention is DOES LE have the perp footprint in the blood? They would have to. Maybe not fingerprint if they had on gloves but definitely footprints. No problems with the dogs because the dogs knew them. The pit bull was Vance’s pet.
Now we have Vance and Steve covered in blood head to toe. And two kids in the car outside. What happens next?
I don’t think that Steve and Vance drove over to Brenda and Mark place. They would have been parked in front of Marks truck when he returned. I think they parked at the campground and came through the woods.. At this point they need to get away quick, they grab the kids. They carry them back to their vehicle. If they came prepared to beat people to death with bats, they must have had a plan to clean up or change clothes before getting back in their car. They would not want to leave blood evidence in their own vehicle. They might have showered at the campground but I don’t think they would have wanted to take the time. I think they took their bloody clothes off put them in garbage bags and had another set of clothes and shoes ready to change into. (I think this is what the FBI was searching for at the landfill but didn’t find.) They must have planned where they would take the kid and that is where they are now. I think Steve, Vance and probably Brenda’s mother, Darlene know exactly where they are. I also suspect LE has a good idea this is the case and hey no need to continue to search. It’s now just a waiting game. I think they are watching both Steve and Vance. Both were talking up till they decided to clam up and use spokes people. When I watch the interviews with Steve I can’t help but sense that this guy has something to hide.
If you listen to what Steve and Vance say to the LE and media they both want to paint Brenda and Mark as drug involved people. They want to point the finger of suspicion in that direction away from themselves. “Please, release my children, they had nothing to do with ANY OF THIS” We find out the most about Brenda’s drug use and possible problem with drugs from Vance’s statements. He sure doesn’t paint a pretty picture of the family life or his mother.
LE now tell us they think this is a crime of passion, not money or drugs. This is the only way I see the murders could have happened with a crime of passion involved.
I know there is lots of reason that you will have trouble believing Steve and Vance could be guilty, but there are also reasons to consider them too.
good gawd!!!...i felt like i was with Steve & Vance, while reading this....i'm going to have to go back, & look at all the videos of them, again...i've seen one with Vance, & i THINK 2 with Steve....everything you mentioned could very well be how it happened....i guess i just never gave it a serious thought, about LE finding them "not suspects" at the beginning....hmmmm, & then with these articles, ....& i TOO think Lutner was there for drugs/money that Sunday....i don't think he had anything to do w/this..no wonder we haven't heard anything about the folks at the BBQ???....heck they were there to get/pay for drugs...in & out...people coming & going..."activity"....i think your idea of Brenda & Mark "drifting" is probably right on the money...."tension" in the household, & all.....i would certainly be outraged, if my children were with the other parent with all this going on....& btw, VERY good point about the "holier than thou ex-smoker"...i didn't even think about that, but it would make sense...hmmm
the part about Shasta & Dylan has been mentioned here once, early on, by someone too.....that Mark pulled up w/the kids, & told them to "get back in the car".....i just didn't give it much thought, because i was under the impression they might have witnessed it..possibly by blood footprints....it could simply mean that they witnessed something...maybe there were videos & burgers in Mark's truck???...(i'm getting off track now)...if Steve & Vance did this, then of course, LE would say that the children witnessed it, if they had suspicions early on, about Steve....i mean, he took a polygraph on Tuesday, right??...the day after LE found the bodies....he requested it, himself...
oh my, this is great....i HOPE this is how it all went down, because that would mean that Shasta & Dylan are alive :eek:
so do you think that Steve really did that well w/the polygraph?...i mean, he could pass a question like, "did you have anything to do with the death of Brenda?"...that must have been asked, along with the question about the children???...i know, i know...polygraphs aren't 100%, but they're pretty good...i've read that some people know how to pass them, if they fully understand them, but......... :confused:
this could possibly be LE "waiting it out" with Steve & Vance...it's weird, but very simple...we know it was planned in advance too..that's something LE has said for sure...you know, it struck me odd, when LE mentioned about going & re-questioning some of the people, too....it was like they were almost giving a hint...well heck, it was stated that they will go back & question again, if they get wind of being lied too...(along those lines)......
this is SO very enlightening :) & i'm so glad you took the time to post this "what if"....it's given new life to this case, for me....
i had thought, more than once that Dylan & Shasta weren't in the house...something just didn't seem right, but i could never put my finger on it...my first thoughts were that they were outside, maybe playing, OR they were hiding in the house somewhere, then the killers found them, taking them out of the house, leaving footprints....
oooooh, i could go on & on now....thanks again!
close_enough
06-17-2005, 08:29 PM
meant to add, though....LE didn't say they thought this was a crime of passion...it was worded that it could be that, "love", or money/drugs....
however they said that it didn't appear it was a big drug, or money thing....
what if Steve or Vance never make a move?...then what?...it would seem that LE has no real evidence linking them to this, right???...i mean, if they're waiting them out...hmmm, very interesting...
couldn't LE ask Steve to take another polygraph??...does he have a lawyer??..i can't even remember, & it's not been THAT long...ugh...
close_enough
06-17-2005, 08:55 PM
another thing....it would also make perfect sense about them being gagged too...(which i was just made aware of)...Steve & Vance go into the house, wanting the children, maybe asking/yelling "where are they?"....maybe even beating Slade & Brenda while doing it, in 2 different rooms....they gag them so they can't scream......they get Mark as he comes in & gag him too...
it's hard to imagine that Vance or Steve would kill Slade, but people do kill their own children/siblings/family members, all the time....
this was very brutal, AND planned...so hard to imagine, but it surely could have happened that way, dragonfly.....
i always thought, early on that Brenda & Mark were into meth, & that it's one of the reasons Vance moved out...tension would definately rise if money was tight, & Mark was the only one bringing in the money, trying to take care of a home, & girlfriend, & her 3 children......
sorry for re-hashing this all, but this "what if" has really got me to thinking in a whole different way....
Tom'sGirl
06-17-2005, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=close_enough]another thing....it would also make perfect sense about them being gagged too...(which i was just made aware of QUOTE]
I've never seen an actual link that states they were "gagged", OR DID I MISS IT SOMEHOW:confused:
Gracelin
06-17-2005, 09:36 PM
Question
I've come across published reports saying the murder victims were gagged:
Nancy Grace show - May 18th Quote:
These people were bound, gagged, and, from what I understand, brutally tortured and beaten.
and
Abrams Report - May 23rd:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7963393/ Quote:
ABRAMS: Dylan and Shasta Groene‘s mother, brother and the mother‘s boyfriend were last seen at a barbecue a week ago Sunday before they were found bound, gagged, brutally beaten, murdered inside their home. Dylan and Shasta, though, have been missing.
and
CDA Press on May 24th:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/20...news/news02.prt (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news02.prt) Quote:
Worst, a forensic psychiatrist with more than 32 years' experience, also thinks it's doubtful that only one person could have slaughtered the entire Groene family. "A crime scene with three people bound and gagged, and then repeatedly bludgeoned, certainly suggests to me than more than one person did this," said Worst, who specializes in rural psychiatry, psychiatric standards of care, and post traumatic-stress disorder.
IMO, a gag is used to prevent someone from screaming or from warning another person among other purposes.
Why would all of the murder victims be gagged in the home that was far from neighbors and sat back away from the highway? Who were the perp(s) trying to keep from hearing the victims? Is it possible the torture and beating began before the BBQ ended? Is it possible the news media misquoted the source?
Maybe someone can answer that...
__________________
==========
In My Opinion
==========
Gracelin
06-17-2005, 09:38 PM
I copied that from near the end of the other Shasta & thread it was posted by Wayne
Wayne
06-18-2005, 01:04 AM
another thing....it would also make perfect sense about them being gagged too...(which i was just made aware of)...Steve & Vance go into the house, wanting the children, maybe asking/yelling "where are they?"....maybe even beating Slade & Brenda while doing it, in 2 different rooms....they gag them so they can't scream......they get Mark as he comes in & gag him too...
it's hard to imagine that Vance or Steve would kill Slade, but people do kill their own children/siblings/family members, all the time....
this was very brutal, AND planned...so hard to imagine, but it surely could have happened that way, dragonfly.....
i always thought, early on that Brenda & Mark were into meth, & that it's one of the reasons Vance moved out...tension would definately rise if money was tight, & Mark was the only one bringing in the money, trying to take care of a home, & girlfriend, & her 3 children......
sorry for re-hashing this all, but this "what if" has really got me to thinking in a whole different way....One segment of the Nancy Grace transcript from May 20th sent chills down my spine as an answer to why Slade was murdered and NOT the younger two children: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/20/ng.01.html
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. Caryn, the motivation to wipe out a family and then kidnap the children -- obviously, they could have killed the kids right there, right when they killed the other three family members. They didn`t. That gives me hope the kids are still alive, but why? What`s the motivation, Caryn?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Nancy, to me, it would seem like it would be a sexual predator. I can`t imagine any other situation where they would leave a 13-year-old behind and yet take the two youngest children. And someone who is interested in molesting children would clearly be interested in younger children.
GRACE: But Caryn, why wouldn`t a child molester grab the kid on the way to school, or when the kid was at the shopping mall, or walking to the grocery store, riding their bike? Why do you have to commit triple homicide to snatch the kid?
STARK: Well, you`re not talking about your normal person, Nancy. I really believe that this is a homicidal person, but also someone who has a perversion, a sexual component. And maybe they took these children just as a token, the way they sometimes do, leaving a murder scene.
But I would believe that two younger children taken, and one who is 13 left behind, indicates to me that it`s somebody who has a sexual perversion, who is interested in these children sexually, unfortunately.
GRACE: Yes. The fact that a 13-year-old was left behind, I see your reasoning. I'm not saying I agree (or disagree) with this analysis but it does give one analytical explanation as to why the youngest two Groene family children were taken and not the 13 year old, Slade. In this crime, anything seems possible and I tend to think it could be a component of the total crime - that perhaps it is possible that one of the perp(s) had a sexual perversion and took Shasta and Dylan as a token.
txsvicki
06-18-2005, 01:53 AM
I wonder if the family were dealing with any organized crime like the Hell's Angels, Mexican drug cartel, or a loan shark. Since there was heavy drug usage and money troubles, I'd be willing to bet that someone took out some sort of loan or ordered an amount of drugs and didn't pay up. The amount of drugs or money owed might not necessarily have been all that much either and it may be some small time dealer linked to a big one. The two children could have been taken out of the home as a threat to the others to talk, pay up, or hand over the drugs. I don't think that a serial killer or the kids' dad did this.
Tom'sGirl
06-18-2005, 03:49 PM
Question
I've come across published reports saying the murder victims were gagged:
Nancy Grace show - May 18th Quote:
These people were bound, gagged, and, from what I understand, brutally tortured and beaten.
and
Abrams Report - May 23rd:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7963393/ Quote:
ABRAMS: Dylan and Shasta Groene‘s mother, brother and the mother‘s boyfriend were last seen at a barbecue a week ago Sunday before they were found bound, gagged, brutally beaten, murdered inside their home. Dylan and Shasta, though, have been missing.
and
CDA Press on May 24th:
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/20...news/news02.prt (http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news02.prt) Quote:
Worst, a forensic psychiatrist with more than 32 years' experience, also thinks it's doubtful that only one person could have slaughtered the entire Groene family. "A crime scene with three people bound and gagged, and then repeatedly bludgeoned, certainly suggests to me than more than one person did this," said Worst, who specializes in rural psychiatry, psychiatric standards of care, and post traumatic-stress disorder.
IMO, a gag is used to prevent someone from screaming or from warning another person among other purposes.
Why would all of the murder victims be gagged in the home that was far from neighbors and sat back away from the highway? Who were the perp(s) trying to keep from hearing the victims? Is it possible the torture and beating began before the BBQ ended? Is it possible the news media misquoted the source?
Maybe someone can answer that...
__________________
==========
In My Opinion
==========Thanks Grace, now I know it is fact & glad you saved the link:cool:
dragonfly
06-18-2005, 06:38 PM
Does anyone else remember early on when there was some statement made by LE that raised the question as to whether the victims were murder and then bound?
Now if we add the element of "gagged" this might have been a staged murder scene...Did the perp want LE to think the victims were killed in a certain fashion?
close_enough
06-18-2005, 07:45 PM
Does anyone else remember early on when there was some statement made by LE that raised the question as to whether the victims were murder and then bound?
Now if we add the element of "gagged" this might have been a staged murder scene...Did the perp want LE to think the victims were killed in a certain fashion?
i don't remember that, but if Steve & Vance did this themselves, it would make sense that they would want to stage the scene....i still find it hard to get past how Steve passed the polygraph, though...except for the one question about the children...
close_enough
06-18-2005, 08:01 PM
One segment of the Nancy Grace transcript from May 20th sent chills down my spine as an answer to why Slade was murdered and NOT the younger two children: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/20/ng.01.html
I'm not saying I agree (or disagree) with this analysis but it does give one analytical explanation as to why the youngest two Groene family children were taken and not the 13 year old, Slade. In this crime, anything seems possible and I tend to think it could be a component of the total crime - that perhaps it is possible that one of the perp(s) had a sexual perversion and took Shasta and Dylan as a token.
you put a lot of thought into your posts Wayne, & i enjoy reading them....i don't see this as a "sex thing", but you're right...anything is possible....
Wayne
06-18-2005, 11:33 PM
you put a lot of thought into your posts Wayne, & i enjoy reading them....i don't see this as a "sex thing", but you're right...anything is possible....
Thank you.:)
It is likely that their abduction may have nothing to do with a "sex thing." As I said - I'm not saying I agree (or disagree) with this analysis but it does give one analytical explanation (by an expert) as to why the youngest two Groene family children were taken and not Slade.
Mellen
06-20-2005, 11:24 AM
I know there is lots of reason that you will have trouble believing Steve and Vance could be guilty, but there are also reasons to consider them too.
I'm a new poster who found this board a couple of weeks ago when I was looking for more information on this case, as it had seemed to disappear from media coverage entirely. I'm quite impressed with all the research everyone has done. I have learned volumes from reading all the posts on here.
Anyway, I was just reading the June 13 issue of People magazine this morning, which features a two-page article about the still unsolved case, and the article mentioned an incident between Vance and Mark McKenzie that I don't think I have read about before:
Fights over — and with — the children had apparently been part of the family's life for some time. McKenzie, a project manager at a stainless-steel company, was arrested in November 2002 for beating up and pulling a shotgun on Brenda and Steve's oldest son, Vance, 20.
This certainly seems like it would be cause for Vance to hold a grudge (and Steve too — I would think most fathers would be very angry to know their ex-wife's boyfriend pulled a gun on their child, no matter what the reason). It seems like the problems and strife in this family ran a lot deeper than the impression I got from the early articles about the case.
In addition, the article goes on to say:
At a May 24 candlelight vigil, one of Slade's friends told People that the creative boy with a good sense of humor hated going home because he didn't like being around all the drugs and had talked about running away.
This statement shows that other people knew that Slade was unhappy with the living situation he was in, and if he had told Vance or Steve about his feelings, it would have given them even more motivation to get those kids out of there. If they were responsible for this horrible act (whether they themselves did the killing or they hired someone else to do it), I'm sure they had no intention of harming Slade. However, he was old enough that I could easily see him trying to protect his mother, leaving no choice for the attackers. This would be the saddest possible outcome for this case, but I agree with Dragonfly — Steve and Vance can't be ruled out.
Welcome to Websleuths Mellen.:)
That was a very informative first post. I had never seen that info before. Thanks for posting it. I will now have to read that article.
While I haven't personally ruled out family members, I have always thought this crime was too brutal for a family member to commit, especially when one of the children dies and the others are abducted. I have posted before that this looked like a professional was involved because it was well planned. This new info leads me to think that a family member could have hired a professional to get the kids out of there, and something went horribly wrong and Slade was unintentionally killed. Maybe not even Vance or Steve, but a close relative like a grandmother or uncle who didnt like what was going on there. I'll have to read that article you quoted from to learn more.
Gracelin
06-20-2005, 12:40 PM
Welcome Mellen
Great first post, I had heard of this just yesterday. I think we are moving closer to a motive, and closer to seeing a family memeber involved with the murders.
Poor Slade my heart breaks for him. I think he was caught in the middle.
dragonfly
06-20-2005, 02:31 PM
Welcome and Thanks for the update from People mag. article. No, I for one have not seen this article. It's always interesting to find new tidbits. These could be valuable clue IMO. It give us more insight in the "disagreement that sent Vance packing!"
Much as I waver on the Steve/Vance theory...Like the father's day interview. Which had me thinking "How in the world could I possible consider this guy?"
But the truth is, as pointed out by an earlier poster, this whole group was no stranger to the criminal world...everyone involved with the exception of Dylan, Shasta and poor Slade had some sort of record and we have to take this into account when we try to decide if someone is capable of crime or murder.
If you add to this the type or emotion, anger, and hatred that would be required to kill Brenda, Slade and Mark in the manner it was carried out, I keeping looking for the source of that anger... I don't think it exists out side of the family.
Could still be drug induced rage. I haven't ruled that out either.
Hello, Mellen! I'm glad you found us! And, I thank you for that pertinent information.
I guess I can safely assume that Vance was about 17, when that incident took place. I know from my own personal experience, a 17 yr old can be a very frustrating age to deal with. Kind of like trying to reason with hurricane season, at times. ;)
Does the article mention what happened prior, that it escalated into Mark taking that action? And, do you know if the journalist learned about that via an interview with Vance, or how?
I'd be very interested to learn the conditions that preceded that incident; especially since Jesse made us all aware that he and Vance were into meth, themselves. I wonder if Vance may have been in one of those drug rages, that Mark, felt the need to grab a weapon. Remembering that Mark is no small guy, at something like 6 ft 230 lbs.
Sorry to ask so many questions! Again, welcome aboard the best forum on the web! :)
Wayne
06-20-2005, 05:21 PM
Although anything is possible, I just don't see this as a drug induced rage killing / abduction. If all five had been killed, I'd tend to agree - it could be a drug-induced rage killing. IMO, if the perp(s) are there to kill, Shasta and Dylan would be dead.
IMO, I think it is very possible that Vance Groene could have been somehow involved. He's exhibited violent tendancies (including possession of a stolen gun) and he's been a serious juvenile offender enough times to serve time in the state juvenile detention facility in St Anthony. Maybe Brenda Groene was turning Vance's girlfriend into a drug-user and that had Vance upset? I believe I read somewhere that Vance and his girlfriend have an infant child, right? Maybe Vance's girlfriend was breastfeeding that infant - and drugs were being passed from mother-to-child? Maybe the child was ill and blood tests showed drugs - leading Vance to be accused of giving drugs to his wife when it was not him but Brenda?
Does anyone have a criminal background on Steve Groene? I've heard he's got a drug abuse history. What other crimes has he been convicted? Anything violent?
If a family member is involved, then I wonder, where are Shasta and Dylan? Are they dead?
Does anyone have a criminal background on Steve Groene? I've heard he's got a drug abuse history. What other crimes has he been convicted? Anything violent?
Steve was convicted of domestic assault in 1998. Brenda filed for divorce that same year.
Wayne, realistically I truly cannot envision Brenda coercing her son's girlfriend into becoming a drug user. Why would she do such a thing? It sounded as if it was enough of a struggle being able to buy drugs for her own use, without supplying somebody else.
This is from an August 2002 Spokesman Review:
Tre Coltan Groene 6 lb. 6 oz. boy, 19 inches, born July 29 to Tiffany Pehrson and Vance Groene, Coeur d'Alene. Grandparents, Cynthia and Randy Pehrson, and Brenda and Steve Groene.
So, looks like Vance was only 17 when his first child was born. Awful lot for a 17 y.o. to handle, imo. I think he and Tiffany have since had another child. Not sure, but I think.
Tom'sGirl
06-20-2005, 06:36 PM
Wayne, realistically I truly cannot envision Brenda coercing her son's girlfriend into becoming a drug user. Why would she do such a thing? It sounded as if it was enough of a struggle being able to buy drugs for her own use, without supplying somebody else.
This is from an August 2002 Spokesman Review:
Tre Coltan Groene 6 lb. 6 oz. boy, 19 inches, born July 29 to Tiffany Pehrson and Vance Groene, Coeur d'Alene. Grandparents, Cynthia and Randy Pehrson, and Brenda and Steve Groene.
So, looks like Vance was only 17 when his first child was born. Awful lot for a 17 y.o. to handle, imo. I think he and Tiffany have since had another child. Not sure, but I think.You are so "right-on" Liz.......No one forced drugs on anyone in this case IMO, and yes, I read that Vance has two children now.
So many in this case have records from Steve's girlfriend & some of her family, to friends like Lutner, Messerly, on & one......geez:eek:
Tom'sGirl
06-20-2005, 06:42 PM
Although anything is possible, I just don't see this as a drug induced rage killing / abduction. If all five had been killed, I'd tend to agree - it could be a drug-induced rage killing. IMO, if the perp(s) are there to kill, Shasta and Dylan would be dead.
IMO, I think it is very possible that Vance Groene could have been somehow involved. He's exhibited violent tendancies (including possession of a stolen gun) and he's been a serious juvenile offender enough times to serve time in the state juvenile detention facility in St Anthony. Maybe Brenda Groene was turning Vance's girlfriend into a drug-user and that had Vance upset? I believe I read somewhere that Vance and his girlfriend have an infant child, right? Maybe Vance's girlfriend was breastfeeding that infant - and drugs were being passed from mother-to-child? Maybe the child was ill and blood tests showed drugs - leading Vance to be accused of giving drugs to his wife when it was not him but Brenda?
Does anyone have a criminal background on Steve Groene? I've heard he's got a drug abuse history. What other crimes has he been convicted? Anything violent?
If a family member is involved, then I wonder, where are Shasta and Dylan? Are they dead?Wayne, I can't find any other charges on Steve other than what was posted way back, but it doesn't mean he wasn't charged with something while living in another State.
This is what was posted in the paper on family history:
The Groene family and Mark McKenzie have had a history of run-ins with law enforcement leading up to the murder of Brenda, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie.
Brenda Groene had DUI charges in 1992, 1994 and 2001 as well as an assault charge filed against her in 1999. Most recently in 2003 she was charged with possession of a controlled substance and was sentenced to one year in jail with 355 days suspended and two years of probation.
Her ex-husband Steven faced a DUI charge in 2002 and a battery charge in 2000. A single charge of domestic battery was filed against him in 1998, the same year he and Brenda filed for divorce.
Their oldest son, 19-year-old Vance, was charged with burglary in 2003.
Their second oldest son, 18-year-old Jesse, is currently serving time in the Kootenai County Jail. He’s faced a variety of charges including burglary, battery, assault, giving liquor to minors, possession of stolen goods and doing damage to the jail.
Mark McKenzie, who was allegedly Brenda’s boyfriend and living with her, was charged in 2002 with assault with a firearm.
chicoliving
06-20-2005, 07:05 PM
Wayne, I can't find any other charges on Steve other than what was posted way back, but it doesn't mean he wasn't charged with something while living in another State.
This is what was posted in the paper on family history:
The Groene family and Mark McKenzie have had a history of run-ins with law enforcement leading up to the murder of Brenda, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie.
Brenda Groene had DUI charges in 1992, 1994 and 2001 as well as an assault charge filed against her in 1999. Most recently in 2003 she was charged with possession of a controlled substance and was sentenced to one year in jail with 355 days suspended and two years of probation.
Her ex-husband Steven faced a DUI charge in 2002 and a battery charge in 2000. A single charge of domestic battery was filed against him in 1998, the same year he and Brenda filed for divorce.
Their oldest son, 19-year-old Vance, was charged with burglary in 2003.
Their second oldest son, 18-year-old Jesse, is currently serving time in the Kootenai County Jail. He’s faced a variety of charges including burglary, battery, assault, giving liquor to minors, possession of stolen goods and doing damage to the jail.
Mark McKenzie, who was allegedly Brenda’s boyfriend and living with her, was charged in 2002 with assault with a firearm.
Just a quick timeline of the family's background from above information. This was quick so excuse any mistakes.
1992 Brenda has DUI charges
1994 Brenda has DUI charges
1998 Steve has Domestic Battery charge
1999 Brenda has Assault charge
2000 Steve has Battery charge
2001 Brenda has DUI charge
2002 Steve has DUI charge : Mark has Assault with Firearm charge
2003 Brenda has Possession of Controlled Substance charge : Vance has Burglary charge
2004/5 Jesse has Battery, Assault, Possession of Stolen Goods, Giving liquor to minors and damage to the jail
Wayne
06-20-2005, 11:41 PM
Just a quick timeline of the family's background from above information. This was quick so excuse any mistakes.
1992 Brenda has DUI charges
1994 Brenda has DUI charges
1998 Steve has Domestic Battery charge
1999 Brenda has Assault charge
2000 Steve has Battery charge
2001 Brenda has DUI charge
2002 Steve has DUI charge : Mark has Assault with Firearm charge
2003 Brenda has Possession of Controlled Substance charge : Vance has Burglary charge
2004/5 Jesse has Battery, Assault, Possession of Stolen Goods, Giving liquor to minors and damage to the jail
Thank you! :)
One thing you'd want to add is Vance's criminal record - as a juvenile.
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/news01.prt
Vance Robert Groene served time in the state's juvenile detention facility in St. Anthony for stealing a firearm, possession of drug paraphernalia and burglary.
chicoliving
06-20-2005, 11:49 PM
Thank you! :)
One thing you'd want to add is Vance's criminal record - as a juvenile.
http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/news01.prt
Feel free to use the timeline and add to it change it, whatever. :)
Looks like they separated in 1998 and divorced in 2001.....so sometime around 2003 or so Vance was in juvie if he's 20 now.....
It kinda looks like the law was involved more and more since the separation.....
Wayne
06-21-2005, 12:11 AM
Feel free to use the timeline and add to it change it, whatever. :)
Looks like they separated in 1998 and divorced in 2001.....so sometime around 2003 or so Vance was in juvie if he's 20 now.....
It kinda looks like the law was involved more and more since the separation.....
You mentioned It kinda looks like the law was involved more and more since the separation..... IMO, the older Vance and Jesse got, the more trouble they got into.
I wonder if Children's Services ever checked-in on Shasta and Dylan? With the trouble Jesse and Vance got into, I'd think they might.
CaliKid
06-21-2005, 07:01 AM
Sad to say, if you grow up in a family where laws are broken and people arrested, the children are more than likely to follow the same path. That's what happened to Vance and Jesse.
close_enough
06-21-2005, 07:34 AM
You mentioned It kinda looks like the law was involved more and more since the separation..... IMO, the older Vance and Jesse got, the more trouble they got into.
I wonder if Children's Services ever checked-in on Shasta and Dylan? With the trouble Jesse and Vance got into, I'd think they might.
just read the parts of the People mag story....this is just horrible...there's no telling what Shasta & Dylan had to put up with, living in that home...poor Slade, not wanting to go home, either....the things they were probably subjected too/saw while in that home, must have been pretty rough :(
close_enough
06-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Wayne, I can't find any other charges on Steve other than what was posted way back, but it doesn't mean he wasn't charged with something while living in another State.
This is what was posted in the paper on family history:
The Groene family and Mark McKenzie have had a history of run-ins with law enforcement leading up to the murder of Brenda, her son Slade and boyfriend Mark McKenzie.
Brenda Groene had DUI charges in 1992, 1994 and 2001 as well as an assault charge filed against her in 1999. Most recently in 2003 she was charged with possession of a controlled substance and was sentenced to one year in jail with 355 days suspended and two years of probation.
Her ex-husband Steven faced a DUI charge in 2002 and a battery charge in 2000. A single charge of domestic battery was filed against him in 1998, the same year he and Brenda filed for divorce.
Their oldest son, 19-year-old Vance, was charged with burglary in 2003.
Their second oldest son, 18-year-old Jesse, is currently serving time in the Kootenai County Jail. He’s faced a variety of charges including burglary, battery, assault, giving liquor to minors, possession of stolen goods and doing damage to the jail.
Mark McKenzie, who was allegedly Brenda’s boyfriend and living with her, was charged in 2002 with assault with a firearm.
i hope this doesn't come off as mean/ugly, but anyone that's been charged with 3 DUI's, 1992, 1994, & 2001, assault, & possession of a controlled substance, has some serious problems....
guess it's just the difference in people, but i had one, & only one, DUI in 1998...it was a nightmare i never want to go through again...(learned a very big lesson...late in life, i might add)...only thing on my "record"....not even a traffic ticket...i just can't imagine 3...sad :confused:
close_enough
06-23-2005, 10:52 AM
Sad to say, if you grow up in a family where laws are broken and people arrested, the children are more than likely to follow the same path. That's what happened to Vance and Jesse.
i agree....they are, more than likely, to follow the same path...
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