Shasta and Dylan Continued 6/1

[Lili]

Starting a new thread to continue discussion.
New day, new month.
Pray for good news today on this case.

[Beyond Belief]

We'll be talking to the man upstairs alot today! Maybe he'll hear us and bring the kids home today.

[joanofarc]

I wanted to make a comment about Steve living with Brenda's mom...if he travels alot with his band perhaps it does not warrant him leasing an apartment or house of his own....maybe that is why he just stays with his ex mother-in-law when he is in town....

[curious1]

Just an idea.....

Everyone is so convinced that this had to be someone who knew them and was looking for drugs and moneyand maybe they were dealing. What if they were not dealing and someone just said they were and word got around so someone goes up there looking for all the drugs and money that is suppose to be there, but there isn't any. Remember the Clutter family in Kansas? Someone said they were rich and kept a lot of money in the house. Turns out it was not true just someone running their mouth in jail and because of that the Clutter family was brutally murdered. Just a thought.

I had this posted on the other thread before this one was started. Hope you don't mind me including it here also. :)

[joanofarc]

This is the biggest problem that I have with the land developer theory. Assume for a moment that the land developers were brutal, cold-blooded killers. Why kill the Groene family for their property when the guy next door has so much more property than them?
Hi JG:

I don't think it would be so much a "land developer" that would kill for property but more along the lines of a jealous family member or someone who believes that the property really belongs or is entitled to them....

This case reminds me of the recent case of the 3 Hargon family members who were killed by their cousin over estate and land disputes.....

http://www.picayuneitem.com/articles/2004/03/03/news/11family.txt

Authorities believe Earnest Lee Hargon, a 43-year-old cattle truck driver, acted alone in killing the family. While no single motive had been put forward, there was speculation the cousin was angry at being written out of his adoptive father's will that gave Michael Hargon several acres of land in nearby Madison County.

[Lili]

In one of the interviews I saw, I think the one Geraldo and Furman(?) were questioning him after it was stated that Steve failed the lie detector test... I thought Steve stated that he lived in a different section of the house in which his ex-mother-in-law lives, therefore she would not have known when he came in or when he went to bed. From that I thought it was an apartment that he lived in, in the same house.

Another thought I had, Brenda/Mark were giving him a rough time about asking to see Dylan and Shasta that weekend (because it wasn't "his" weekend). You know, if he lives in the same house with her mom, what's the big deal about it? He stated he was going on vacation and therefore wouldn't be there on "his" weekend,(?) he wanted to see the kids.

I believe that all 5 of the children were Brenda and Steve's children. Someone indicated that only the younger ones were Steve's. I think I read that Steve had custody of the older two boys while Brenda had custody of the younger three. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is so much speculation and pieces of information floating around right now that is is easily misconstrued. :doh:

[Rle7]

Wolfinger also said some fingerprint evidence has returned, but so far only those of who lived in the house have been identified.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/news05.txt

That's not very encouraging. Looks like the person or persons who did this planned ahead to cover their tracks.

[Cristal]

Hey, I am joing late today, catching up on everything on this new link. It will take a while to look at every print that has been sent to the lab. First of all a neighbor said there were people coming and going from the house so there will possibly be prints that the will never identify. Then they have to print family members, friends of the family and the people who were said to have attended the bbq. This will be a very lengthy process.

[SauerKraut]

I hope we get some news today too! I keep changing my feelings on this: Maybe the kids are hidden somewhere for their protection and the other side says someone is out there playing with LE. This "lead" seems strange to me. The plate number is "partial" correct? Would someone call in a tip and know the exact year of the truck? What vehicle DID match these plates? In Idaho, do you keep the plates on the vehicle when it's sold or do you take the plates and put them on your recently purchased vehicle? I know every state is difference but if the plates stay with the PERSON, maybe it just isn't registered yet???? Help me out here....

[SauerKraut]

Briefly checking on line, it seems that the plates stay with the person and go with them if they get a new vehicle. Anyone there in Idaho that can confirm this? This could be why there is no match, especially if a transfer was just done recently....and who's to say the plates or truck isn't stolen anyways?

[Cristal]

Stolen plates are a great possiblity. Any new news today? Been surfin and havent found anything

[Cristal]

hey does anyone remeber the web site with the photos of the landfill, house, etc. It had a lot of pictures including the yard, house, bronco type truck, landfill, etc.

[close_enough]

got through w/work a bit early today, due to rain, & i rushed straight to the computer to see if anything became of the possible sighting, last night...i see there's nothing new....hmm

[close_enough]

Wolfinger also said some fingerprint evidence has returned, but so far only those of who lived in the house have been identified.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/news05.txt

That's not very encouraging. Looks like the person or persons who did this planned ahead to cover their tracks.






yes, if the killers planned this well enough, they might have worn gloves...

[SauerKraut]

Stolen plates are a great possiblity. Any new news today? Been surfin and havent found anything

Stolen or plates just haven't been transferred yet. Or, they just remembered it wrong, plate was dirty, etc etc. I also, and I hate to say this, can imagine tips being called in by the perps to keep LE off their trail. If you saw the kids, would you notice the truck was a 2001 but not notice the whole plate number or the registration county info? Unless you own a truck of that same year, I think that's just strange. Was this some special year for a Dodge truck? Does anyone agree with me or am I being too analytical? :waitasec:

[close_enough]

In one of the interviews I saw, I think the one Geraldo and Furman(?) were questioning him after it was stated that Steve failed the lie detector test... I thought Steve stated that he lived in a different section of the house in which his ex-mother-in-law lives, therefore she would not have known when he came in or when he went to bed. From that I thought it was an apartment that he lived in, in the same house.

Another thought I had, Brenda/Mark were giving him a rough time about asking to see Dylan and Shasta that weekend (because it wasn't "his" weekend). You know, if he lives in the same house with her mom, what's the big deal about it? He stated he was going on vacation and therefore wouldn't be there on "his" weekend,(?) he wanted to see the kids.

I believe that all 5 of the children were Brenda and Steve's children. Someone indicated that only the younger ones were Steve's. I think I read that Steve had custody of the older two boys while Brenda had custody of the younger three. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is so much speculation and pieces of information floating around right now that is is easily misconstrued. :doh:

from everything i've read, all 5 children were Steve & Brenda's, together.....

[Rle7]

hey does anyone remeber the web site with the photos of the landfill, house, etc. It had a lot of pictures including the yard, house, bronco type truck, landfill, etc.
Here are the photo links posted from the previous string:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157743,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157743,00.html)

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/052605groeneidaho/im:/050526/480/idbm10405262221?sp=-1&lsp=6000 (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/052605groeneidaho/im:/050526/480/idbm10405262221?sp=-1&lsp=6000)

[oceanblueeyes]

I wanted to make a comment about Steve living with Brenda's mom...if he travels alot with his band perhaps it does not warrant him leasing an apartment or house of his own....maybe that is why he just stays with his ex mother-in-law when he is in town....

I believe Steve has a regular job through the week and does his band commitments on the weekends. Remember he said that he got up around 5am on the 16th to go to work? I thought I heard someone mention he does some type of construction work.

I also see nothing nefarious about him living with his ex-m-i-l. Not every divorce ends a long relationship held by the other's side of the family.

My hubby's ex-family truly love him just as they did when he was a part of their family. They drop into see us and we will go occasionally to see how they are doing. The entire family (excluding his ex-wife lol) attended our wedding. And I know without a shadow of a doubt should he need a place to stay or needed any kind of help they would be there with open arms. His ex-wife accepts the way they feel.

I think Steve living there was a win-win situation for Brenda, Steve, Grandma and the children. A great environment having daddy and grandma in the same home when they came to stay.

IMO

Ocean

[oceanblueeyes]

Wolfinger also said some fingerprint evidence has returned, but so far only those of who lived in the house have been identified.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/news05.txt

That's not very encouraging. Looks like the person or persons who did this planned ahead to cover their tracks.






I agree totally. I think we may have underestimated these premeditated murderers. More and more it seems they were very well aware of what not to leave behind. IMO they not only brought the binding with them but took the excess with them and they also brought their weapon(s) of choice, used them and then removed them.

I think it is highly likely they used gloves to prevent any fingerprints.

Much more cunning and thorough than I first thought.

:twocents:
Ocean

[Lili]

...I also see nothing nefarious about him living with his ex-m-i-l. Not every divorce ends a long relationship held by the other's side of the family.

My hubby's ex-family truly love him just as they did when he was a part of their family. They drop into see us and we will go occasionally to see how they are doing. The entire family (excluding his ex-wife lol) attended our wedding. And I know without a shadow of a doubt should he need a place to stay or needed any kind of help they would be there with open arms. His ex-wife accepts the way they feel.

I think Steve living there was a win-win situation for Brenda, Steve, Grandma and the children. A great environment having daddy and grandma in the same home when they came to stay.Ocean
Good, I'm glad you said that. I was hesitant to say that our family, including my son, attended our ex-daughter-in-law's wedding. She, her hubby, their family (hers, his, theirs:o), her parents, we are all on friendly terms and and would be there for support if any of us need it. Now, the 2nd "ex" is a totally different story. She's a thousand miles away and has seen her son (our grandson) twice in 2 years. Her choice, not ours.

[oceanblueeyes]

Good, I'm glad you said that. I was hesitant to say that our family, including my son, attended our ex-daughter-in-law's wedding. She, her hubby, their family (hers, his, theirs:o), her parents, we are all on friendly terms and and would be there for support if any of us need it. Now, the 2nd "ex" is a totally different story. She's a thousand miles away and has seen her son (our grandson) twice in 2 years. Her choice, not ours.

Well to be fair :D I must say that as I started walking down the isle toward by hubby to be, the first person I saw sitting in the Bride's section was my ex-hubby and my stepson.

Even though we weren't meant to be married did not mean I didn't know he was still a very good man........he too has become a wonderful friend.......closer to my hubby though than to me. LOL. It makes for a much more peaceful environment for the children.......the people that really count.

It sickens me to see such bitterness when divorces happen as it becomes all about control and power ..not what is in the best interest of the children and they lose because of all the pettiness done by adults.

JMO

Ocean

[close_enough]

I agree totally. I think we may have underestimated these premeditated murderers. More and more it seems they were very well aware of what not to leave behind. IMO they not only brought the binding with them but took the excess with them and they also brought their weapon(s) of choice, used them and then removed them.

I think it is highly likely they used gloves to prevent any fingerprints.

Much more cunning and thorough than I first thought.

:twocents:
Ocean

exactly...it was planned, & in my mind, that's revenge/payback, of some kind....especially if drugs are involved...

[close_enough]

someone mentioned that maybe Shasta & Dylan are being held somewhere, until the killers figure out what to do w/them...or until things "cool down".....it would be wonderful if these people would just let them go, if they're alive...just drop them off on the side of a road, ya know???....i don't see that happening though...Shasta & Dylan aren't babies..they're plenty old enough to remember faces & give descriptions...i just can't get a grasp why they would be taken out of the house, alive....trying to think what these folks could have had in their minds, when they took them..it's been a little over 2 weeks now....if they're still alive, there's a reason they are...a reason why these people spared them....

don't yall think that whoever did this, probably lives in the general area??

[Lili]

Ah-haaa! They are checking out zip-tie purchases. See the "Beating" thread. I put a link there.

[joanofarc]

I believe Steve has a regular job through the week and does his band commitments on the weekends. Remember he said that he got up around 5am on the 16th to go to work? I thought I heard someone mention he does some type of construction work.
Ocean
Thanks Ocean...now I want to know where Steve works to see if there is any connection - especially if he is in construction - involving disgruntled companies/clients/employees that sort of thing....

I don't suppose the name of his workplace has been made public, has it??...

[Rle7]

The search of a landfill has ended with no clues found in the bludgeoning deaths of three people and the abduction of two children from a home.

The Kootenai County Sheriff's office said today that F-B-I agents sifted through some 800 tons of trash at the landfill, looking for clues that might have been dumped into garbage cans near the Groene family's rural home.

Officers have already conducted about 400 interviews in the case. Officers say a possible sighting of the children in Wallowa County, Oregon, turned out to be a mistake.

http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5155&ContentID=x51828&Layout=KBCI.xsl&AdGroupID=x5154&URL=http://localhost/apwirefeed/d8aevhb80.xml&NewsSection=StateHeadlines

Well, the news doesn't get much better today. I hope they can trace these people through the cable ties, but if these people were smart enough not to leave blood or fingerprint evidence, bring their own bindings and weapon, and not throw anything away, I seriously doubt if they paid for the bindings with their credit card. I wonder what kind of security cameras Lowe's had. I hoped LE was on top of that when they saw the bindings from day one. I would almost say this looks like a professional masterminded this...

[close_enough]

The search of a landfill has ended with no clues found in the bludgeoning deaths of three people and the abduction of two children from a home.

The Kootenai County Sheriff's office said today that F-B-I agents sifted through some 800 tons of trash at the landfill, looking for clues that might have been dumped into garbage cans near the Groene family's rural home.

Officers have already conducted about 400 interviews in the case. Officers say a possible sighting of the children in Wallowa County, Oregon, turned out to be a mistake.

http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5155&ContentID=x51828&Layout=KBCI.xsl&AdGroupID=x5154&URL=http://localhost/apwirefeed/d8aevhb80.xml&NewsSection=StateHeadlines

Well, the news doesn't get much better today. I hope they can trace these people through the cable ties, but if these people were smart enough not to leave blood or fingerprint evidence, bring their own bindings and weapon, and not throw anything away, I seriously doubt if they paid for the bindings with their credit card. I wonder what kind of security cameras Lowe's had. I hoped LE was on top of that when they saw the bindings from day one. I would almost say this looks like a professional masterminded this...

no, it doesn't....do you think LE has already interviewed everyone that they had proof for, that bought the ties??......wouldn't these things have lot numbers on them too??...you know, like all the ties came from a particular box/lot???...surely they've checked that out by now, right???

[Lili]

If they seem to think the zip-ties came from Lowe's, speculatin' here, maybe they found packages or tags to tie them to that business.

[Rle7]

no, it doesn't....do you think LE has already interviewed everyone that they had proof for, that bought the ties??......wouldn't these things have lot numbers on them too??...you know, like all the ties came from a particular box/lot???...surely they've checked that out by now, right???
I'm sure the FBI is on top of that. They traced it to Lowe's apparently. LE did obtain a sealed search warrant last week, I wonder if it was in relation to the ties? And forensics can probably determine if the ties came from the same box by the unique flaws from the same batch, I would hope.

[chicoliving]

Were the victims in CdA bound with these plastic ties or is this the other cases that have been mentioned?

[joanofarc]

Were the victims in CdA bound with these plastic ties or is this the other cases that have been mentioned?
Yes, Chico...the ties were on the murder victims in the Cd'A case...see the beating thread....news release ;)

[SewingDeb]

In one of the interviews I saw, I think the one Geraldo and Furman(?) were questioning him after it was stated that Steve failed the lie detector test... I thought Steve stated that he lived in a different section of the house in which his ex-mother-in-law lives, therefore she would not have known when he came in or when he went to bed. From that I thought it was an apartment that he lived in, in the same house.

Another thought I had, Brenda/Mark were giving him a rough time about asking to see Dylan and Shasta that weekend (because it wasn't "his" weekend). You know, if he lives in the same house with her mom, what's the big deal about it? He stated he was going on vacation and therefore wouldn't be there on "his" weekend,(?) he wanted to see the kids.

I believe that all 5 of the children were Brenda and Steve's children. Someone indicated that only the younger ones were Steve's. I think I read that Steve had custody of the older two boys while Brenda had custody of the younger three. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is so much speculation and pieces of information floating around right now that is is easily misconstrued. :doh:

You are exactly correct from what I have read.

[chicoliving]

Yes, Chico...the ties were on the murder victims in the Cd'A case...see the beating thread....news release ;)
TY Not keeping up to good but I'll try to do better :)

[Liz]

I accidently posted this on the media links thread, so am moving it here.

The search of a landfill has ended with no clues found in the bludgeoning deaths of three people and the abduction of two children from a home. snip>>>


Thanks so much for your up to the minute reporting, Rle7! :)

The landfill search has not ended altogether, correct? Just for the day, I presume? I'm so glad our weather has turned cooler again, so that these poor investigators get a bit of a break from the enhanced stench the heat creates.

May God help them get through that garbage and find some clues to help solve this heinous crime.

[SauerKraut]

I accidently posted this on the media links thread, so am moving it here.




Thanks so much for your up to the minute reporting, Rle7! :)

The landfill search has not ended altogether, correct? Just for the day, I presume? I'm so glad our weather has turned cooler again, so that these poor investigators get a bit of a break from the enhanced stench the heat creates.

May God help them get through that garbage and find some clues to help solve this heinous crime.

Hmm, I got the impression they were done with it for good but I haven't been watching too much today. Not much more to report.

[concernedperson]

Hi JG:

I don't think it would be so much a "land developer" that would kill for property but more along the lines of a jealous family member or someone who believes that the property really belongs or is entitled to them....

This case reminds me of the recent case of the 3 Hargon family members who were killed by their cousin over estate and land disputes.....

http://www.picayuneitem.com/articles/2004/03/03/news/11family.txt

Authorities believe Earnest Lee Hargon, a 43-year-old cattle truck driver, acted alone in killing the family. While no single motive had been put forward, there was speculation the cousin was angry at being written out of his adoptive father's will that gave Michael Hargon several acres of land in nearby Madison County.

Your theory makes more sense than anything I have read about this case. I also think the killers were cunning in their way.

[dannyodie]

after reading the paper in that area online. the police say white zip ties were use to tie them up, but they would not say much on the murder weapon, I am starting to think that they might feel the murder weapon was also bought there, but that is just my insight on this article, the coronor said the type of weapon used would almost certainly cause instant death, I am thinking they were not beat with a club, but one of a few items come to mind.. 1. a small bench top short handled sledgehammer, 2. a machete knife. or a crowbar. I certainly fear for the kids being with these monsters. god bless those precious babies. I hope these killers are found soon. what type of work did lutner do? maybe he could be involved. I don't know. something is going to develope soon, I can just feel it. click on the link for the latest story.


http://www.ktvb.com/news/topstories/stories/ktvbn-june0105-groene_latest.2d0976cc0.html

[oceanblueeyes]

Thanks Ocean...now I want to know where Steve works to see if there is any connection - especially if he is in construction - involving disgruntled companies/clients/employees that sort of thing....

I don't suppose the name of his workplace has been made public, has it??...

No it hasnt Joan, I only heard it mentioned one time and the name of the company wasnt stated.

Ocean

[Tom'sGirl]

No it hasnt Joan, I only heard it mentioned one time and the name of the company wasnt stated.

OceanYou know something else that has never been mentioned in the paper?..........Mark's obit!

Or did I miss it:(

[oceanblueeyes]

If they seem to think the zip-ties came from Lowe's, speculating' here, maybe they found packages or tags to tie them to that business.

When I heard about the white zip ties....my mind immediately went toward law enforcement as more and more of them are using these ties to contain suspects.

Wonder if there is any past history in law enforcement with these killers.....or errrrrrrrr....maybe not so in the past. :eek: :eek:

I dont think it has anything to do with the robbery and beating of the man....his wounds must not have been so bad ...he wouldn't even seek medical care. We all know the head area will bleed a lot even if it is hit accidentally on something.

Ocean

[oceanblueeyes]

You know something else that has never been mentioned in the paper?..........Mark's obit!

Or did I miss it:(


No I havent seen it......isnt that odd? I saw Brenda and Slade's.

Wonder why not?

Ocean

[Tom'sGirl]

No I havent seen it......isnt that odd? I saw Brenda and Slade's.

Wonder why not?

Ocean
Dunno!

I would have like to have read where he was born and the survivors names!

[Liz]

When I heard about the white zip ties....my mind immediately went toward law enforcement as more and more of them are using these ties to contain suspects.

Wonder if there is any past history in law enforcement with these killers.....or errrrrrrrr....maybe not so in the past. :eek: :eek:


Those same thoughts went through my mind, too! These people definitely have a history with LE officers.

OTOH, this crime seems very personal.

[Liz]

Dunno!

I would have like to have read where he was born and the survivors names!


His survivors definitely chose to keep things private. Mark's funeral was private, too.

[Beyond Belief]

I have had this horrible eerie feeling all day that they should dig up the garden. I don't know why, its just been nagging me all day. The best place to hide a weapon or whatever would be a place tht had obviously been dug up for a normal reason.

[1986]

My hubby is in the computer business. He uses zip-ties all the time for tidying up cables and wires. He usually gets them at Walmart or the building supply store. He's even bought some at a discount store (dollar store) and was surprised to find them there. We've been using them in the yard to stake plants and he uses them for other things around the house. The zip ties could have been in the house or could have been brought in by the killers. That is just so hard to say.


I was looking a pics of the house and noticed that the windows are boarded up. Was this done after the murders? If so, why?

[Tom'sGirl]

My hubby is in the computer business. He uses zip-ties all the time for tidying up cables and wires. He usually gets them at Walmart or the building supply store. He's even bought some at a discount store (dollar store) and was surprised to find them there. We've been using them in the yard to stake plants and he uses them for other things around the house. The zip ties could have been in the house or could have been brought in by the killers. That is just so hard to say.


I was looking a pics of the house and noticed that the windows are boarded up. Was this done after the murders? If so, why?
Read back on one of the news articles where it was stated they had taken a U-Haul of evidence from the home and boarded it up.

[1986]

Tom'sGirl,

Thanks!

[SewingDeb]

You know something else that has never been mentioned in the paper?..........Mark's obit!

Or did I miss it:(

I have been wondering about that. Is it possible that he lived through this and they are keeping it quiet?
Oops, I see that he had a private funeral.

[mysteriew]

My hubby is in the computer business. He uses zip-ties all the time for tidying up cables and wires. He usually gets them at Walmart or the building supply store. He's even bought some at a discount store (dollar store) and was surprised to find them there. We've been using them in the yard to stake plants and he uses them for other things around the house. The zip ties could have been in the house or could have been brought in by the killers. That is just so hard to say.
I was looking a pics of the house and noticed that the windows are boarded up. Was this done after the murders? If so, why?

Ziploc ties are also used by farmer's, mechanics, electricians, and many manufacturing plants. I like to keep them around the house, as they are handy for keeping bundles together.
Weapon could easily have been a tire iron. Found in most people's vehicles. By the way, I live in the country and this is a weapon used in many fights. It is handy, and is easily used in a fight. Can be lethal if wielded with enough force.
Fingerprints, LE has worded their release very carefully. Family prints are the only ones identified. Well those would be the first ones id'd as they have known prints to match them to. LE just didn't mention if they had prints that haven't been id'd yet.
License plates, if I were going to be running from the law the first thing I would want to do is switch off my license plate. Probably with a stolen plate. How many people would recognize if their license plates were stolen, as long as they were replaced by another set of plates? Does anyone know on the license plate that they matched- where was the owner of that plate from? That would give an indication of what way the suspects were headed. Or was it a local plate? Was any of their friends/family suddenly missing/on vacation?

[misterallgood]

With the new info about zip-ties in mind I did some searching, and found something very interesting -- Post Falls, WA Police Dept. Press Release, dated May 18, 2005. (http://postfallspolice.com/Press%20Releases/Robbery%20051805.htm)
Once back at his home in Post Falls he entered his residence and was almost immediately attacked by the two males and the female who had given him a ride home. It is believed that the males followed the victim and the female back to the Post Falls home. He was struck several times in the head and lost consciousness. When he woke up he was bound with tape and zip ties.

Post Falls, WA is only about 10 miles from Coeur d'Alene. Two suspects are in jail --




Donald W. Brown 26 YOA of Spokane
Steven L. Murphy 25 YOA of Spokane
Sorry if this has been noticed already.

Mr. A.

**edited to add -- I wrote a blog entry about the above -- The Groene Murders and Abduction... Zip-Ties
(http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000768.html)

[CaliKid]

I wonder if the perp couldn't bring himself to kill young children and that's why they were taken. He/they might have thought Slade was older than 13 or mistook him for older brother Jesse. And he's driving around with these children who were witnesses (or was driving around) and doesn't know what to do with them. That's a gruesome thought.

[SauerKraut]

I wonder if the perp couldn't bring himself to kill young children and that's why they were taken. He/they might have thought Slade was older than 13 or mistook him for older brother Jesse. And he's driving around with these children who were witnesses (or was driving around) and doesn't know what to do with them. That's a gruesome thought.

I agree with you. I can't shake the idea that Slade was mistaken for an adult. He could have acted agressively while defending himself and seemed older than he was. It's all so sad, I felt strongly that after the weekend, something would turn, but not so. :mad:

[dannyodie]

Briefly checking on line, it seems that the plates stay with the person and go with them if they get a new vehicle. Anyone there in Idaho that can confirm this? This could be why there is no match, especially if a transfer was just done recently....and who's to say the plates or truck isn't stolen anyways?
it is also a possibility that if the someone was going to use there own vehicle to do a crime that they might either steal a tag and put it on there own car so it can't be traced to the real owner of the car being used in the course of a crime. I have had the feeling that the kids were either taken to washington or oregon, seems as if though some leads are coming from that area, I wonder though if someone would take a chance to have them out during the daylight hours, whoever took them had all of sunday night and most of monday to travel somewhere else if they were taken far from the scene. the other case that involves a similar type of crime with a man being tied up and beaten still has a good possibility to it.

[LatteDa]

Arrrggh...I haven't looked at this case for several days. I was hoping to find that the kids had been found or that LE had made arrests. :(

[dannyodie]

it would be extremely rare that a land developer would hire someone to kill off a family to aquire property. land developers are loaded with money and would pay a large amount to make an attempt to aquire valuable property. IF that was the case, and there was a developer that wanted property bad enough, most would burn down a piece of property verses killing innocent people and abducting children. but I am not saying it is out of the question, if there are people that abduct innocent children, then I could almost picture a corrupt land developer.

[JerseyGirl]

Weapon could easily have been a tire iron. Found in most people's vehicles. By the way, I live in the country and this is a weapon used in many fights. It is handy, and is easily used in a fight. Can be lethal if wielded with enough force.I hate to even discuss this ... my stomach is literally turning after hearing this. If they said that the weapon would cause instant death, it makes me think that it's something that would quickly injure the brain. And the first thing that came to mind was the back of a hammer. I'm sorry if this is too graphic but I can't think of any way to say it that would be less so. I don't know what's worse to think ... that the kids are with these monsters or that they aren't. :( :( :( :(

[dannyodie]

Thanks Ocean...now I want to know where Steve works to see if there is any connection - especially if he is in construction - involving disgruntled companies/clients/employees that sort of thing....

I don't suppose the name of his workplace has been made public, has it??...


if someone works in and around construction, it would be a endless supply of items that could be used to do a crime, and it would certainly be a place to aquire any amount of zip ties a person wants. one thing they didn't say other than white zip ties, large wide type of ties are used exclusively with air conditioner installers, electrical workers use ties to, but the larger ones are not needed in residential construction on electrical work. smaller ones are. if the fbi keeps looking into it, they might be able to compare the ties used in both cases, all ties that came from the same batch on the same day of manufacture would yeild the same or similar chemical composistion. maybe they should look to see if the ties in both cases are of the same construction? just a thought.

[GinaAngel435]

I hope we get some news today too! I keep changing my feelings on this: Maybe the kids are hidden somewhere for their protection and the other side says someone is out there playing with LE. This "lead" seems strange to me. The plate number is "partial" correct? Would someone call in a tip and know the exact year of the truck? What vehicle DID match these plates? In Idaho, do you keep the plates on the vehicle when it's sold or do you take the plates and put them on your recently purchased vehicle? I know every state is difference but if the plates stay with the PERSON, maybe it just isn't registered yet???? Help me out here....
I don't know if this has been answered yet, but I lived in Idaho for 16 years, and when I purchased my first new vehicle, the plates did not transfer over(this was in 1999). I had to get new plates/tags.

My parents still live in Boise, and they say even there (which is several hundred miles south of Coeur D'alene) the enormity of what happened is fresh in everyone's hearts & mind. I've been through Coeur D'alene a few times, and it's a small, pleasant rural community. People just don't think of this happening in their small little farming towns... it always happens in the larger, more populated cities. (Not that it's alright, of course!)

My heart and prayers are with the Groene Family. Let's hope we find those beautiful children soon! :o

[JerseyGirl]

I wonder if the perp couldn't bring himself to kill young children and that's why they were taken. He/they might have thought Slade was older than 13 or mistook him for older brother Jesse. And he's driving around with these children who were witnesses (or was driving around) and doesn't know what to do with them. That's a gruesome thought.I was thinking these same thoughts before. But since hearing that the weapon used would have caused death immediately, I can only imagine what that weapon was and how atrocious this crime must have been. For someone to be able to do that to another person is unimaginable to me. To do it in front of those two children, one would have to be pure evil. The news about the murder weapon has me thinking the worst about the kids. I just can't imagine that someone that is capable of committing a crime this heinous has a caring bone anywhere in their body. Hearing this new detail leads me to believe that this crime was not about bringing these kids to a better home. If getting the kids was the motive, I can't imagine that they are safe somewhere.

I don't know why they would have taken the kids. But if they could do something this grotesque, they can probably cross any line. This news has dashed most of my hopes that these beautiful children will be found safely. I will, of course, continue to pray for them, nonetheless. I just wish that I was able to hold on to more hope than I have at this moment. :(

[close_enough]

found this on CTV...it's from the Spokesman Review, & i couldn't get into the site for some reason.....


Susan Drumheller
Staff writer
June 2, 2005

During a week of picking through 800 tons of trash, FBI investigators found nothing to help solve last month's triple homicide and the disappearance of two children.

The FBI was looking through trash collected from the Wolf Lodge Bay area east of Coeur d'Alene where Brenda Groene, 40, Slade Groene, 13, and Mark McKenzie, 37, were found bludgeoned to death in their home.

Missing from the crime scene were Brenda Groene's two youngest children, 9-year-old Dylan "D.J." Groene and 8-year-old Shasta Groene.

A possible sighting of the children in Wallowa County, Ore., Monday turned out to be unfounded, according to Capt. Ben Wolfinger of the Kootenai County Sheriff's Department. The sighting was of similar looking children from Owyhee County, Idaho, who were camping with their family, he said.

And while forensic specialists at the FBI's laboratory in Quantico, Va., continue to analyze a U-Haul trailer full of evidence, and the number of interviews in the case topped 400, investigators had no new information to release as of Wednesday.

Still, the 70-plus investigators are not discouraged, Wolfinger said.
"They're fired up," he said. "They're still volunteering to do extra hours. They literally have to be pushed out the door each day."
According to Wolfinger, one FBI agent sifting through garbage in last weekend's hot weather explained his motivation this way; "Well, we have children, too."

Although the search of the trash is finished, the search for the missing children is not, even if the chances of finding them seem slimmer as time goes on, Wolfinger said.
"Statistically, it's not good," Wolfinger said. "That's certainly in the back of everyone's mind. We still believe if they were meant to be killed they would have been killed at the scene.
"Look at the Elizabeth Smart case," he continued, referring to the case of the Utah teenager who was abducted by a street-preaching polygamist in 2002. "She was gone for months … and found relatively close to home."
FBI spokesman Bob Wright said, "the Elizabeth Smart case down here (in Salt Lake City) was a huge rarity."

The National Center for Missing and Abducted Children has no statistics to predict the chances of the children being recovered, either alive or dead. The center has not conducted its own studies, nor has the Department of Justice examined the question, a center spokeswoman said.
The only statistic the center cites applies to abducted children who are murdered – they typically are killed within three hours of being abducted. But that doesn't address the question of how long a kidnapped child is likely to be kept alive.

Massive resources are being devoted to the case. At one point last week, the FBI had 85 agents assisting in Coeur d'Alene, Wright said.
"That's one thing that's great about the FBI," he said. "We do have the resources that we can put a bunch of people on a case immediately."

Family members are experiencing mixed emotions with the pace of the investigation – one that's attracted more than 1,500 tips from around the nation, with nearly every lead followed.
"I'm frustrated because this hasn't been solved, but encouraged that the FBI is on this full force," said Wendy Price, an aunt of the missing children. "I have faith in the authorities that this case will be broken."

The children's father, Steve Groene, is offering his 1997 Harley-Davidson motorcycle, worth about $25,000, as a reward for information leading to the return of his children. Details of how the reward program will work are still pending, Price said.
"That's the most expensive thing Steve owns," she said.

Meanwhile Wednesday, authorities with the FBI and sheriff's office would not confirm a KREM 2 television report that the FBI is interviewing people who purchased "zip ties" from Lowe's Home Improvement Warehouse. The station reported that the three victims were bound with white zip ties.

Investigators are releasing very little information about the scene of the killings. Wolfinger said they fear that too many details will make it difficult for investigators to discount crack-pot confessions.

www.spokesmanreview.com

[SauerKraut]

I hate to even discuss this ... my stomach is literally turning after hearing this. If they said that the weapon would cause instant death, it makes me think that it's something that would quickly injure the brain. And the first thing that came to mind was the back of a hammer. I'm sorry if this is too graphic but I can't think of any way to say it that would be less so. I don't know what's worse to think ... that the kids are with these monsters or that they aren't. :( :( :( :(

I am wondering, since they brought up the Keddie murders as a possible similarity, if they used a claw hammer. I hope to God these kids didn't see their mother get killed, how sick these people are. I have to think that the kids were hiding, or laying very quiet in bed and the killers, after they did their deed, ransacked the house and discovered the children. At that point, they were "calmer" and had no choice but to take the kids. Who knows what could have happened afterwards but it's not looking very hopeful. I do hope their leeds with the ties pans out to something.

I do believe strongly that Vance or Jesse pissed someone off and that someone was NOT the one who came and carried out the deed. I think they had someone else do it. These people may not have known who they were even dealing with. Is there a chance that they were told to go after a girl and guy at the house (Vance and his gf) and Brenda and Mark were mistaken for them simple because they guys didn't know who they were?

I do think the money Lutner borrowed is somehow entangled with all this though. Thinking, thinking.....

[Tom'sGirl]

found this on CTV...it's from the Spokesman Review, & i couldn't get into the site for some reason.....

www.spokesmanreview.com (http://www.spokesmanreview.com)
I went here also and you have to PAY to view thier articles...........BUMMER!:rolleyes:

[mysteriew]

I went here also and you have to PAY to view thier articles...........BUMMER!:rolleyes:

Try bugmenot.com

[CaliKid]

This was a RAGE crime, possibly fueled by drugs, or it was murder-for-hire crime designed to put the fear of hell into the surrounding community. The kids were innocent bystanders who got swept up in it because they were in the house. I think the murderer couldn't bear the thought of killing young children in such a heinous way, but of course couldn't leave them since Dylan and Shasta would've identified him.

So that leaves several options for the killer/kidnappers. The kids are dead, which unfortunately is the most likely. Or maybe they've been sold, making up for financial losses by the perp.

Or what?

[joanofarc]

This was a RAGE crime, possibly fueled by drugs, or it was murder-for-hire crime designed to put the fear of hell into the surrounding community. The kids were innocent bystanders who got swept up in it because they were in the house. I think the murderer couldn't bear the thought of killing young children in such a heinous way, but of course couldn't leave them since Dylan and Shasta would've identified him.

So that leaves several options for the killer/kidnappers. The kids are dead, which unfortunately is the most likely. Or maybe they've been sold, making up for financial losses by the perp.

Or what?IMO anyone who murders people in the way this family was murdered is not "dripping with compassion" for his victims....don't forget Slade was just a young boy as well

There must be another explanation as to why only these three were murdered at the scene....either it is someone who knows this family, such as a relative, or the children were taken as an "insurance policy" or "precaution" against Vance, Jesse, or Steve talking or revealing too much information of some other types of criminal activities to L.E.....

[Tom'sGirl]

Try bugmenot.comThanks mysteriew,

I had no probelem accessing the paper and the headlines, but clicking onto the links just don't work unless I'm a paid subscriber.

[close_enough]

i sure was hoping to read/hear something new with this case.... :(

[oceanblueeyes]

I have been wondering about that. Is it possible that he lived through this and they are keeping it quiet?
Oops, I see that he had a private funeral.

I read that Mark had requested to be cremated and his ashes thrown in the woods near his father's home.

Sorry I have read so much, I cant remember the link.

Ocean

[Tom'sGirl]

I read that Mark had requested to be cremated and his ashes thrown in the woods near his father's home.

Sorry I have read so much, I cant remember the link.

Ocean
Here's the link:

Originally Posted by Liz
In searching for an obitituary for Mark, I googled up a 5/27/05 news report, that I had not yet seen.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:08Q4YJZU2R0J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D71643+Obituaries+%3D+Mark+McKenzi e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[oceanblueeyes]

Here's the link:

Originally Posted by Liz
In searching for an obitituary for Mark, I googled up a 5/27/05 news report, that I had not yet seen.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:08Q4YJZU2R0J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D71643+Obituaries+%3D+Mark+McKenzi e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Thank you for the link Tom'sGirl.

Ocean

[Tom'sGirl]

Thank you for the link Tom'sGirl.

Ocean
You're welcome Ocean.......thank Liz, she's the one that found it when I mentioned I had never read anything in the obits about Mark.

When I read the article it kind of confirmed my belief that Brenda & Mark had other sorts like Lutner with crimminal records that came out there.

I also believe IMO that Steve Groene knew of most of them & even may have hung around with some of them that came out to Brenda & Marks.

clip from article:
Steve McKenzie said "his brother had two sets of friends: "Your normal people that get up, go to work, do the best they can. And there were people who went out there just to drink beer, do the party thing."

[Beyond Belief]

Here's the link:

Originally Posted by Liz
In searching for an obitituary for Mark, I googled up a 5/27/05 news report, that I had not yet seen.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:08Q4YJZU2R0J:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FID%3D71643+Obituaries+%3D+Mark+McKenzi e&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Thanks, it was a nice article.

[chicoliving]

Nancy Grace on Headline News...on now....she's going to cover this story. She led into the show with "has the investigation stalled in the ID murders and the missing Groene children"..........covering the missing teen in Aruba first.

[Liz]

I went here also and you have to PAY to view thier articles...........BUMMER!:rolleyes:


The only way around that, TG, is to wait until google stores a copy in their 'cache', and then you can get it that way, providing you can get it to come up on google. That is how I have posted links to Spokesman Review articles here. ;)

[Tom'sGirl]

The only way around that, TG, is to wait until google stores a copy in their 'cache', and then you can get it that way, providing you can get it to come up on google. That is how I have posted links to Spokesman Review articles here. ;)Thanks for the tip Liz, you are a true Sleuth there girl :cool:

[Liz]

Thanks for the tip Liz, you are a true Sleuth there girl :cool:

You're welcome, TG! I think another advantage of that, is that when the publisher removes the article, then it's still available through that cached link! ;)

[kahskye]

This was a RAGE crime, possibly fueled by drugs, or it was murder-for-hire crime designed to put the fear of hell into the surrounding community. The kids were innocent bystanders who got swept up in it because they were in the house. I think the murderer couldn't bear the thought of killing young children in such a heinous way, but of course couldn't leave them since Dylan and Shasta would've identified him.

So that leaves several options for the killer/kidnappers. The kids are dead, which unfortunately is the most likely. Or maybe they've been sold, making up for financial losses by the perp.

Or what?
This is pretty much what I've said all along. I'm still not sure why the kids were taken. Yes, they were innocent bystanders, but a person who is so full of rage could easily kill the children. Either the murderers had orders to bring the children out alive or they were taken for another reason.

Why isn't the murder weapon identified? It seems like not disclosing this information is protecting someone. This case is being kept hushed for a reason.

As always, just my opinion.

[Liz]

This is pretty much what I've said all along. I'm still not sure why the kids were taken. Yes, they were innocent bystanders, but a person who is so full of rage could easily kill the children. Either the murderers had orders to bring the children out alive or they were taken for another reason.

Why isn't the murder weapon identified? It seems like not disclosing this information is protecting someone. This case is being kept hushed for a reason.

As always, just my opinion.


That certainly makes sense, Kahskye.

I hope and pray investigators know a lot more than they are disclosing! And have chosen to just keep things close to the vest because it is in the best interest of solving the case.

Praying daily that those children are alive, safe and being cared for.

[mysteriew]

The only way around that, TG, is to wait until google stores a copy in their 'cache', and then you can get it that way, providing you can get it to come up on google. That is how I have posted links to Spokesman Review articles here. ;)

Liz I have heard others talk about the 'cache' on Google, but I still don't know what you mean. Is there someplace on Google to click to take me into the cache, or do you get it just by entering something in particular in the search engine? Or does it come up automatically when you enter the search words?
Sorry to be so stupid, but I have always waited for someone else to ask, and it seems everyone else knew but me, cause no one asked. :D

[CaliKid]

I think LE knows what the murder weapon is, but they aren't releasing the information.

[Liz]

Liz I have heard others talk about the 'cache' on Google, but I still don't know what you mean. Is there someplace on Google to click to take me into the cache, or do you get it just by entering something in particular in the search engine? Or does it come up automatically when you enter the search words? :D


I doubt you're the only one who's unfamiliar with it. ;)

You know how the search provides a click on link at the top of each description for the url that come up ... well just go to the end of the particular description for the link and you will see 'cached' and 'similar pages'. Just click on 'cached' to see the cached version.

Here are my google results so you can see for yourself:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=spokesman-review+%2B+Idaho+Triple+homicide&btnG=Google+Search

I'm glad you asked! And, I hope I explained it okay! :)

[JerseyGirl]

I think LE knows what the murder weapon is, but they aren't releasing the information.I think that you're right. In fact, they've alluded to as much in some of their statements. I'm becoming frustrated by this case just like others have been mentioning in terms of the lack of details being released. But someone posted a link where LE stated that they can only release so much because they have to have a way to identify "crackpot confessions". I can't believe that people would confess to crimes that they didn't commit but apparently it's a large enough problem that this is why they hold back on what they release to the public. Very odd.

[Wayne]

I think that you're right. In fact, they've alluded to as much in some of their statements. I'm becoming frustrated by this case just like others have been mentioning in terms of the lack of details being released. But someone posted a link where LE stated that they can only release so much because they have to have a way to identify "crackpot confessions". I can't believe that people would confess to crimes that they didn't commit but apparently it's a large enough problem that this is why they hold back on what they release to the public. Very odd.
Murder weapon (from this link (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php)):
Kootenai County Coroner Dr. Robert West said the three victims had been bound and were beaten to death with a blunt object. He said the extent of skull damage indicated death was likely immediate.
I'm thinking a blunt object could be a baseball bat but I am sure there are other items that meet the "blunt object" definition.

[JerseyGirl]

Murder weapon (from this link (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php)):

I'm thinking a blunt object could be a baseball bat but I am sure there are other items that meet the "blunt object" definition.It was also recently stated that the weapon most likely caused immediate death. I forgot about the 'blunt object' statement. Now I'm confused. What could be blunt and yet cause immediate death? (I'm not asking, BTW; just curious as to how it's possible to have both statements be true.)

ETA: Or maybe I just misinterpreted the wording in the most recent statement?

[Wayne]

It was also recently stated that the weapon most likely caused immediate death. I forgot about the 'blunt object' statement. Now I'm confused. What could be blunt and yet cause immediate death? (I'm not asking, BTW; just curious as to how it's possible to have both statements be true.)

ETA: Or maybe I just misinterpreted the wording in the most recent statement?
IMO, if a person is under the influence of certain illegal drugs (PCP and meth come to my mind), they can use a blunt object against the top of a person's head and crush the skull with a single blow.

I read somewhere that the description of the crime scene has a signiture of a drug deal gone bad. IMO, pehaps Brenda or Michael owed money and could not pay-up. The perp(s) were impatient and decided to take the two youngsters to try to collect payment from Steve or Vance. Or maybe for a child porn to collect some money. As I said before, one child can be used by a perp(s) to keep the other child cooperative and quiet. Or maybe because of the publicity and news, perhaps the two children are now dead.

Let me float a thought / idea here... Perhaps Steve had an idea (perhaps from Vance) that a hit was going down against his family and he wanted his two youngsters with him - but as I heard / read, Brenda and Steve had a heated argument and Steve never got to remove his two young children in time. Maybe that is why the "nothing to do with this" phrase that Steve spoke that has lead people to question.

I wonder if someone in the house or family played baseball or softball? A blunt object ould be a table leg, a table top, gun butt, baseball bat, many things. And baseball bats can be metal.

[Gracelin]

That's a pretty interesting thought Wayne, I think something along those lines may have happened,
Now say when this killing started, Brenda told the children to hide, Perhaps they use a cell phone to call the Dad, he tells them to hide outside somewhere and comes for them, never entering the house himself ,

Maybe that's why the truck door is open, they hide there, The father pulls up as the killer attempts to take them from the truck,(That explains the blood on the truck) He knows the killer and is freaked out by who it is, He takes the babies into hiding.

Why:

Perhaps the killer is his son or good friend, brother, brother in law someone on those lines..
The kids will tell who did it, He needs to put them somewhere safe and with someone trusted.
To protect them himself and even perhaps the killer.

But where Canada or Mexico. Part of me thinks Mexico because it seems like a place to simply disappear in. And you can live cheaply down there.
I don't know the difference in the laws between Canada and Mexico,Expeccially if one got caught in that country, I would think it is easier to get around Mexico than Canada,
But like I said I don't know the laws in either country..

Why kill Slade: We may never know or We won't know until the case plays out..

Why the killing took place at all...We won't know until the case plays out..

Where was the father on the night of the murders? Out late I read in on thread.
Home sleeping in another...

Why did he say they had nothing to do with this let them go.. To throw L.E. off?

maybe I just want so much for these to babies to alive,That I am will to sooth my heart with this type of story...

Still praying for both of them to come home..

[Rle7]

Maybe that's why the truck door is open, they hide there, The father pulls up as the killer attempts to take them from the truck,(That explains the blood on the truck) He knows the killer and is freaked out by who it is, He takes the babies into hiding.The Groene case began on the evening of May 16 when sheriff's deputies went to the rural home after a neighbor reported that dogs were barking and the door of one vehicle was open but no one was in sight.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050604/ap_on_re_us/idaho_slayings_1

I've never seen an article or link to state that blood was found on any of the vehicles at the Groene house or on the truck towed away from Mr. Hollingsworth's barn. All I have ever heard was that the car door was open, and noone has even been specific enough to state if that was the drivers side door or the passenger side door. In the 911 recordings, Mr. Hollingsworth states that the front door of the house is covered with blood and a car door is open. I'm pretty sure none of the vehicles had blood on them. If you can prove me wrong and provide a link to that info, please do.

[Gracelin]

A neighbor who came by on May 16 to pay Slade Groene for mowing his lawn called police after finding the house quiet and the front door handle covered with blood.

I stand corrected..

[SewingDeb]

I read that Mark had requested to be cremated and his ashes thrown in the woods near his father's home.

Sorry I have read so much, I cant remember the link.

Ocean

Thanks Ocean.

[joanofarc]

Of interest is the close proximity of Couer D'Alene to the Canadian border where (I just watched a CBC news report) meth use in Maple Ridge, British Columbia has reached epidemic proportions. This is only approx. Total Est. Time: 6 hours, 52 minutes Total Est. Distance: 408.53 miles from the scene of the murders

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/features/crystalmeth/story.html?id=0aa71b8a-3220-42af-af02-c2ed674e1206

http://www.randykamp.com/crystalmeth1.htm

Also of interest in the news the other day is an Alberta man charged with videotaping the molestation of a 6 year old girl and broadcasting it across the internet (I say, Internet porn ring).

Thanks to an astute American who reported this website the guy was caught....THANK YOU LORD!!

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/050603/n060331A.html

[CaliKid]

I think that you're right. In fact, they've alluded to as much in some of their statements. I'm becoming frustrated by this case just like others have been mentioning in terms of the lack of details being released. But someone posted a link where LE stated that they can only release so much because they have to have a way to identify "crackpot confessions". I can't believe that people would confess to crimes that they didn't commit but apparently it's a large enough problem that this is why they hold back on what they release to the public. Very odd.
Another reason for not releasing details to the public is to catch the perp. If someone knows something they shouldn't (because it hasn't been released by LE), it means he must know for some other reason, such as committing the crime or knowing who did.

[CaliKid]

The Groene case began on the evening of May 16 when sheriff's deputies went to the rural home after a neighbor reported that dogs were barking and the door of one vehicle was open but no one was in sight.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050604/ap_on_re_us/idaho_slayings_1

I've never seen an article or link to state that blood was found on any of the vehicles at the Groene house or on the truck towed away from Mr. Hollingsworth's barn. All I have ever heard was that the car door was open, and noone has even been specific enough to state if that was the drivers side door or the passenger side door. In the 911 recordings, Mr. Hollingsworth states that the front door of the house is covered with blood and a car door is open. I'm pretty sure none of the vehicles had blood on them. If you can prove me wrong and provide a link to that info, please do.
That's what I heard- blood on the front doorknob of the house, not the truck.

[Wayne]

That's what I heard- blood on the front doorknob of the house, not the truck.
Maybe I'm stupid, but I've never heard of a house's door knob referred to as a front door handle. I've heard of a truck or car with a door handle but not a house.

At this link here (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php), there is a reference to blood on the front door handle, not front door knob. Earlier on, I had read there was blood on the vehicle's door handle and then I read there was blood on the house's door knob.

Is the front door handle referencing a house's door knob?

[Cristal]

Just for info, there was a double murder here in my community. A female returned home from playing cards and got into an altercation with here live in boyfriend. She was having her little brother (he was 8 yrs old) staying with her for the night. When the altercation started she sent her brother to get a hammer from under the sink to hit the boyfriend. The child did this however the boyfriend took the hammer away from her and ended up beating them both and killing them. According to the coroner, death was instantely. This was a claw hammer like we use everyday. The crime scene was one of the worst that veteran investigators here in the area have every scene. IF THIS IS THE WEAPON USED FOR THE ATTACK ON THE GROENE FAMILY THEN THE SCENE HAD TO BE VERY GRUESOME. BLOOD SPATTER HAS A VERY DISTICTIVE PATTERN FROM AN INSTRUMENT LIKE THIS (HAMMER, BAT, CLUB, ETC.)

[Tom'sGirl]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I've never heard of a house's door knob referred to as a front door handle. I've heard of a truck or car with a door handle but not a house.

At this link here (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php), there is a reference to blood on the front door handle, not front door knob. Earlier on, I had read there was blood on the vehicle's door handle and then I read there was blood on the house's door knob.

Is the front door handle referencing a house's door knob?You're not stupid Wayne, that was an odd way to describe it unless the solid door did have a handle instead of a doorknob:confused: Some cabins have a pad-lock and handle in leiu of a doorknob..........just a thought!

[kahskye]

Just for info, there was a double murder here in my community. A female returned home from playing cards and got into an altercation with here live in boyfriend. She was having her little brother (he was 8 yrs old) staying with her for the night. When the altercation started she sent her brother to get a hammer from under the sink to hit the boyfriend. The child did this however the boyfriend took the hammer away from her and ended up beating them both and killing them. According to the coroner, death was instantely. This was a claw hammer like we use everyday. The crime scene was one of the worst that veteran investigators here in the area have every scene. IF THIS IS THE WEAPON USED FOR THE ATTACK ON THE GROENE FAMILY THEN THE SCENE HAD TO BE VERY GRUESOME. BLOOD SPATTER HAS A VERY DISTICTIVE PATTERN FROM AN INSTRUMENT LIKE THIS (HAMMER, BAT, CLUB, ETC.)

Or maybe a 5 or 10 lb sledge hammer?
http://www.hammersource.com/polydb.html

[Rle7]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I've never heard of a house's door knob referred to as a front door handle. I've heard of a truck or car with a door handle but not a house.

At this link here (http://www.inlander.com/localnews/285543427719440.php), there is a reference to blood on the front door handle, not front door knob. Earlier on, I had read there was blood on the vehicle's door handle and then I read there was blood on the house's door knob.

Is the front door handle referencing a house's door knob?
Hi Wayne. I read that link, but it only referred to a house in that paragraph, not a vehicle. I also posted the 911 recordings earlier on the second closed thread, and the neighbor says the door is covered with blood, not the "front door handle." I don't know where that news source is getting its info from unless they reinterviewed the neighbor at some point. But I'm real sure he means the front door of the house, not the car door. I'm sure the media would have picked up on that, and I haven't seen any news source state any vehicle had blood on it.

[chicoliving]

I recall hearing these statements on the video clip while watching the show....different neighbor than the 911 caller Hollingsworth.



BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.


Nancy Grace transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html)

[close_enough]

this article is posted on the "links" thread...interesting...Wolfinger said cult connections were not considered likely......i think it's interesting that he came out & said this, considering they haven't mentioned much of anything else about a motive...i believe LE thinks this is completely drug related...jmo

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050604/ap_on_re_us/idaho_slayings_1

[Tom'sGirl]

I recall hearing these statements on the video clip while watching the show....different neighbor than the 911 caller Hollingsworth.



BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.


Nancy Grace transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/18/ng.01.html)Okay, most of whats been said of the neighblor and the 911 tape was from Bob Hollingsworth. He explained why he went over there (to pay Slade) and the dogs were in the house barking.

This other neighbor, Brian Messerly said he also went over there, BUT what was the reason for him going over there?
(BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house)


From what he said it was dark, he didn't say it was dark in the house, just dark. How then was he able to see the blood on the door?

[chicoliving]

Dunno, but those are good questions. I don't know if those are the only statements he's made to the media but it's all I've seen. If I get a chance I'll do a search on him and see what pops up.

[Rle7]

Okay, most of whats been said of the neighblor and the 911 tape was from Bob Hollingsworth. He explained why he went over there (to pay Slade) and the dogs were in the house barking.

This other neighbor, Brian Messerly said he also went over there, BUT what was the reason for him going over there?
(BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house)


From what he said it was dark, he didn't say it was dark in the house, just dark. How then was he able to see the blood on the door?
I've always wondered about that myself. Since Mr. Messerly doesn't state what time he went there, I don't know how dark it was outside. Maybe the front porch light was on? Or the neighbor left his car headlights on, or noticed it while he was driving up to the house? I don't know the answers...

[Liz]

Wait a sec ... who's "he" that's saying it's dark now? :confused:

[Tom'sGirl]

Wait a sec ... who's "he" that's saying it's dark now? :confused:
Brian Messerly, a neighbor!

[chicoliving]

Then there must be more to his statements cause in his statement several posts up he only said he came over last night. Nothing about it being dark or lights....

BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.

[Tom'sGirl]

I've always wondered about that myself. Since Mr. Messerly doesn't state what time he went there, I don't know how dark it was outside. Maybe the front porch light was on? Or the neighbor left his car headlights on, or noticed it while he was driving up to the house? I don't know the answers...I've enlarged the photo of the front of the house and I don't even see a porch, just the door :waitasec: . There's a bush to the right of the door. In fact I see no path through the tall grass to the door!

Maybe they use the back door or side as an entrance, say on the side where the out building is.

[Beyond Belief]

The neighbor who discovered the scene was there around 6 thirty on Monday. He says its dark inside the house. What time does it get dark in Idaho? Six thirty sounds awful early. Apparently th other neighbor was there before six thirty. This doesn't make sense if it doesn't get dark until later. I realize that several weeks have past, but for today sunset is 8:40. This is not making any sense and if these people aren't being scrutinized something is wrong.

[Tom'sGirl]

Then there must be more to his statements cause in his statement several posts up he only said he came over last night. Nothing about it being dark or lights....

BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.You're right Chico,

I'm mixing up what Hollingsworth said, and what Messerly said. In the transcript he indeed didn't say it was dark, he said last night. Although I'm still curious as to why he went over there

[Tom'sGirl]

The neighbor who discovered the scene was there around 6 thirty on Monday. He says its dark inside the house. What time does it get dark in Idaho? Six thirty sounds awful early. Apparently th other neighbor was there before six thirty. This doesn't make sense if it doesn't get dark until later. I realize that several weeks have past, but for today sunset is 8:40. This is not making any sense and if these people aren't being scrutinized something is wrong.Sorry BB,

I goofed, he didn't say it was dark outside, he said he went over last night!

Geeez, I'm losing it:banghead:

[Beyond Belief]

Its general dark at night. So what do people call 6 oclock?

[Beyond Belief]

I am sitting here listening to a show on Jeffrey Dahmer. Can you imagine, someone on there just said they felt sorry for him. These monsters roaming our world need to be put out of their misery.
The police need tocome clean with whats going on with this case. These are cold blooded killers who commited this crime and we the public have the right to be able to protect ourselves from people like this. By concealing information only endangers the rest of us.

[Rle7]

The neighbor who discovered the scene was there around 6 thirty on Monday. He says its dark inside the house. What time does it get dark in Idaho? Six thirty sounds awful early. Apparently th other neighbor was there before six thirty. This doesn't make sense if it doesn't get dark until later. I realize that several weeks have past, but for today sunset is 8:40. This is not making any sense and if these people aren't being scrutinized something is wrong.
Even though I've never been able to confirm this, I believe Mr. Messerly went over there late Sunday night after the murders had just occured. I think that was what he was so upset about, the fact that he was there right after the murders happened and didn't go inside the house to check on his neighbors. If he had, the Groene children might have been recovered right away. It wouldn't make sense to be so upset about it if he was there on Monday night, and the place was sealed off by 6:45PM Monday.

[Lili]

First of all, lots of neighbors are neighborly. Especially in rural areas and small towns. I see nothing mysterious about Mr. Messerly stopping by.

Secondly, I have lights on in my house at 5:30 in the evening. That house has small windows and I can see where they probably would even use a lamp during the day.

[Tom'sGirl]

First of all, lots of neighbors are neighborly. Especially in rural areas and small towns. I see nothing mysterious about Mr. Messerly stopping by.

Secondly, I have lights on in my house at 5:30 in the evening. That house has small windows and I can see where they probably would even use a lamp during the day.
Mr. Hollingsworth stated no lights were on!

[Beyond Belief]

Ok, so the lights were reported to be off at 6 thirty Monday according to the neighbor. He said it was dark in there. The other neighbor goes over there Sunday night, he says night so we can assume he means nightime. Are the lights off or on? If the house was dark on Sunday night, why would he knock on the door? Wouldn't you assume everyone was asleep? Blood on the door at whatever time that was says they were killed before Sunday night, of course whatever time he was there. What made him go over there if there were no lights on? Its got to be dark out there. And how can you see blood in the dark, unless of course it was still light out when he went there. So that means the killer did his dirty deed before dark on Sunday. There was a supposed bbq or has that been squashed.

[Lili]

I think many people say "night" instead of evening. I for one, would say I go visit at the nursing home on Tuesday and Thursday nights. I don't mean after 9 pm when it's dark. Or I have a meeting on Wed. night.

I could have still been daylight, however there were no lights on in the house, so it would appear dark inside.

[Liz]

My theory as to why the house looked dark, is that northern Idaho was experiencing cloudy weather and rain showers, on Monday, 5/16. I think that would explain why it looked dark inside to anyone that was outside the house. Especially if the windows are small, or if the curtains were drawn.

I also suspect that the barbecue may have ended well before dark. I feel it's very possible the three were murdered before lights in the house were turned on. Mainly because I can't see any murderer(s) going around turning all the lights off, before they exit. And, we know that Bob Hollingsworth said the house was dark inside.

Link to underground weather for Idaho Mon 5/16/05:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCOE/2005/5/16/DailyHistory.html

[Tom'sGirl]

Ok, so the lights were reported to be off at 6 thirty Monday according to the neighbor. He said it was dark in there. The other neighbor goes over there Sunday night, he says night so we can assume he means nightime. Are the lights off or on? If the house was dark on Sunday night, why would he knock on the door? Wouldn't you assume everyone was asleep? Blood on the door at whatever time that was says they were killed before Sunday night, of course whatever time he was there. What made him go over there if there were no lights on? Its got to be dark out there. And how can you see blood in the dark, unless of course it was still light out when he went there. So that means the killer did his dirty deed before dark on Sunday. There was a supposed bbq or has that been squashed.BB,

In one of the articles I had read in the Cda.press it mentioned all the persons attending the BBQ were questioned and finger printed.

It strikes me strange that Marks brother was there earlier in the day and there was no mention of a pending BBQ to him.

It could be that the BBQ was just a group of acquaintances that got together over there to party. Lutner claims there was a BBQ, but I don't put much stock in what he had to say.

[Tom'sGirl]

My theory as to why the house looked dark, is that northern Idaho was experiencing cloudy weather and rain showers, on Monday, 5/16. I think that would explain why it looked dark inside to anyone that was outside the house. Especially if the windows are small, or if the curtains were drawn.

I also suspect that the barbecue may have ended well before dark. I feel it's very possible the three were murdered before lights in the house were turned on. Mainly because I can't see any murderer(s) going around turning all the lights off, before they exit. And, we know that Bob Hollingsworth said the house was dark inside.

Link to underground weather for Idaho Mon 5/16/05:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCOE/2005/5/16/DailyHistory.html
Good points Liz!

[close_enough]

the way i understand the BBQ, it was early in the afternoon...one article i read said that Lutner came in on the BBQ at the "tail end"..can't remember where i read this, but i think it was from a link on CTV...(might be here, also)...anyway, i know i read that....soooo, LE said that Brenda, Mark & Slade were killed sometime within 24 hours from the time they got to the scene, which was around 6:45 pm, Monday...i think the murders/abduction happened just before the sun went down, on Sunday....that's why there were no lights on in the house...jmo

[Beyond Belief]

Good points Liz!
They are good points.

The Sunday night visitor had to be there before dark. But if it was overcast and cloudy lights would have been turned on early in the evening had the family been alive. They were killed before it turned overcast enought to need lights in the house. It could be as early as 5 oclock to need lights in a house like that referring to an earlier post. So that puts the murders earlier in the day. What time did those people who were suppose to be there at a bbq leave? What time of day was the brother there? A normal get together would maybe end at say 3 or 4. Thats an hour and a half timeframe for this to happen. Sounds like whoever was at this bbq did the evil deed.

[chicoliving]

What about after bedtime when all were in their beds?

[close_enough]

What about after bedtime when all were in their beds?

well, i had thought of that too, chico, & then i remembered what LE said at the very beginning...that the murders happened sometime within the last 24 hours, which would mean going back from the time they arrived on the scene, which was approx 6:45 pm, Monday...i don't think these folks were in bed....

[Lili]

I think it was early Sunday evening because, although LE has never stated the attire of the victims, I think that if they had been in pj's or bedclothes, LE would have stated that they were killed "during the night".

[Beyond Belief]

How would blood get on the front door unless someone was attacked outside and forced back in. I still think Mark was outside and the other two were inside, thats how the murderers got control of them so easily. Mark might have gone outside to talk to someone. Why was his cardoor open? Did the murderer arrive at the house with Mark? It did rain that night so anything that happened outside would have been washed away. That or they were kept under control with a gun, but it wasn't the weapon of choice for the murders. Did the murderer have blood on his hands when he left the scene. Why would that be necessary if he was smacking everyone with a hammer? Or would that action cause the weapon to become covered with blood this its on his/her hands.

[Rle7]

They are good points.

The Sunday night visitor had to be there before dark. But if it was overcast and cloudy lights would have been turned on early in the evening had the family been alive. They were killed before it turned overcast enought to need lights in the house. It could be as early as 5 oclock to need lights in a house like that referring to an earlier post. So that puts the murders earlier in the day. What time did those people who were suppose to be there at a bbq leave? What time of day was the brother there? A normal get together would maybe end at say 3 or 4. Thats an hour and a half timeframe for this to happen. Sounds like whoever was at this bbq did the evil deed.
LE said the murders happened within 24 hours of being discovered at approximately 6:15PM Monday. Lutner was there until after 7PM Sunday. And I also read that Lutner said he left at the "tail end" of the BBQ, so there were people there even later then that. Lutner had also stated he didn't know any of the guests at the BBQ. The murders happened either early or mid Sunday night, I'm guessing between 8PM and 10PM.

[Beyond Belief]

LE said the murders happened within 24 hours of being discovered at approximately 6:15PM Monday. Lutner was there until after 7PM Sunday. And I also read that Lutner said he left at the "tail end" of the BBQ, so there were people there even later then that. Lutner had also stated he didn't know any of the guests at the BBQ. The murders happened either early or mid Sunday night, I'm guessing between 8PM and 10PM.
That all sounds like BS if the neighbor who stopped by on Sunday night saw blood on the door and the lights were out. Unless of course the murderer purposedly turned off all the lights so no one could see into the house.

[Tom'sGirl]

the way i understand the BBQ, it was early in the afternoon...one article i read said that Lutner came in on the BBQ at the "tail end"..can't remember where i read this, but i think it was from a link on CTV...(might be here, also)...anyway, i know i read that....soooo, LE said that Brenda, Mark & Slade were killed sometime within 24 hours from the time they got to the scene, which was around 6:45 pm, Monday...i think the murders/abduction happened just before the sun went down, on Sunday....that's why there were no lights on in the house...jmoMarks brother was there in the afternoon......see below:
This is G o o g l e's cache (http://www.google.com/help/features.html#cached) of http://www.spokesmanreview.com/idaho/story.asp?ID=71643 (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/idaho/story.asp?ID=71643)

Steve McKenzie said he stopped by his brother's Wolf Lodge area home that afternoon and left his son there to play with Shasta and Dylan while he went to visit Ralph McKenzie, Steve and Mark's father. Later, he returned to pick up his son.

"Nothing was out of the ordinary," Steve McKenzie recalled. His brother "didn't mention anything about conflicts with anybody, or have any reason to be nervous about anything. They weren't drinking … I can't speak for anything that happened after I left …

[Rle7]

I was going through my history logs, and I found this video interview with Bob Hollingsworth. He just restates what he said earlier on the 911 call and concern about where the children are. Other neighbors are also interviewed. No new info, but just for those interested.

http://www.ktvb.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/051705_groene-latest.wmv

[Beyond Belief]

I was going through my history logs, and I found this video interview with Bob Hollingsworth. He just restates what he said earlier on the 911 call and concern about where the children are. Other neighbors are also interviewed. No new info, but just for those interested.

http://www.ktvb.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/051705_groene-latest.wmv
My sounds not working, who was the good looking guy being interviewed in that clip?

[close_enough]

LE said the murders happened within 24 hours of being discovered at approximately 6:15PM Monday. Lutner was there until after 7PM Sunday. And I also read that Lutner said he left at the "tail end" of the BBQ, so there were people there even later then that. Lutner had also stated he didn't know any of the guests at the BBQ. The murders happened either early or mid Sunday night, I'm guessing between 8PM and 10PM.

ok...i guess i took this comment by Wolfinger the wrong way then....
"my understanding is he was there towards the tail end of the BBQ".....i took it like he arrived at the end....
i'm still thinking this happened before it got dark, but i guess the killers could have turned out all the lights when they left, maybe to make it appear that everyone was asleep, just incase someone happened to come by??...hmm, i just don't know...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7921158/

[Liz]

I think that if they had been in pj's or bedclothes, LE would have stated that they were killed "during the night".

I agree, Lili!

If there was a barbecue on Sunday, I think it's safe to assume that it had pretty much wrapped up by 5:35 pm or very shortly thereafter. Because at 5:35 it started raining, and pretty much continued to rain for the rest of the evening.

Based on the fact that the house is very small, I think most of the BBQ attendees would have seen the rain and the dark skies as a sign it was time to go home.

Here is the weather for Sunday, 5/15/05:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCOE/2005/5/15/DailyHistory.html

Yep, I think the rain literally put a damper on the party.

[Beyond Belief]

ok...i guess i took this comment by Wolfinger the wrong way then....
"my understanding is he was there towards the tail end of the BBQ".....i took it like he arrived at the end....
i'm still thinking this happened before it got dark, but i guess the killers could have turned out all the lights when they left, maybe to make it appear that everyone was asleep, just incase someone happened to come by??...hmm, i just don't know...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7921158/

I hadn't realize that Lutner didn't know any of the people at the barbeque. Doesn't that seem strange? The brother didn't come and a guy they know well enough to lend 2 grand too doesn't know them, but there's a house full of people. Who are they? Where did they come? And how do you have a barbeque withouth lawn furniture? Pretty straight collared group if there was not drinking. Something smells here. How could a group of people show up at a house and the regulars just seem to show up at the end of the party and then one after the party, now seeming like it was late at night. yet that guy was willing to knock on the door even though the lights were off and he somehow managed to see blood on the door in the dark. This stinks.

[Tom'sGirl]

My sounds not working, who was the good looking guy being interviewed in that clip?
Bob Hollingsworth

[close_enough]

I was going through my history logs, and I found this video interview with Bob Hollingsworth. He just restates what he said earlier on the 911 call and concern about where the children are. Other neighbors are also interviewed. No new info, but just for those interested.

http://www.ktvb.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/051705_groene-latest.wmv

thanks!..i hadn't seen this before..

[Tom'sGirl]

I hadn't realize that Lutner didn't know any of the people at the barbeque. Doesn't that seem strange? The brother didn't come and a guy they know well enough to lend 2 grand too doesn't know them, but there's a house full of people. Who are they? Where did they come? And how do you have a barbeque withouth lawn furniture? Pretty straight collared group if there was not drinking. Something smells here. How could a group of people show up at a house and the regulars just seem to show up at the end of the party and then one after the party, now seeming like it was late at night. yet that guy was willing to knock on the door even though the lights were off and he somehow managed to see blood on the door in the dark. This stinks.
BB,

None of the time-lines in my opinion make a damn bit of sense!

Also, like I said before, I put no stock in anything Lutner had to say.

[Tom'sGirl]

I was going through my history logs, and I found this video interview with Bob Hollingsworth. He just restates what he said earlier on the 911 call and concern about where the children are. Other neighbors are also interviewed. No new info, but just for those interested.

http://www.ktvb.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.krem.com/crime/051705_groene-latest.wmv
Thanks Rle,

I found it strange that Mr. Hollingsworth said "they have a lot of kids" when he mentioned no one came running out.

To me the only ones that would come running out would be Shasta & Dylan because they are very young.

[Beyond Belief]

Thanks Rle,

I found it strange that Mr. Hollingsworth said "they have a lot of kids" when he mentioned no one came running out.

To me the only ones that would come running out would be Shasta & Dylan because they are very young.
If the brother was dropping his child off there, maybe so were other people. Making it seem like alot of kids. I think they didn't want people inside unless invited. If they were smoking dope I can understand that.

[close_enough]

That all sounds like BS if the neighbor who stopped by on Sunday night saw blood on the door and the lights were out. Unless of course the murderer purposedly turned off all the lights so no one could see into the house.

that's sure a possibility...

[Beyond Belief]

BB,

None of the time-lines in my opinion make a damn bit of sense!

Also, like I said before, I put no stock in anything Lutner had to say.
They came right out and said they believed him. Why would they believe him? Too much time has passed. If there was other people at the house, then their property, cars, cell phones and anything else that might bring in evidence should have been searched. And the available time still only leaves a few hours if that long between the time the last party people left and the other neighbor arrived and saw the blood on the door. If the nice people who nobody knows went home between 7 and 8, then who managed to find the opportunity to return, do the dirty deed and leave before the next neighbor shows up. That place was busier than grand central station.

[Tom'sGirl]

I agree, Lili!

If there was a barbecue on Sunday, I think it's safe to assume that it had pretty much wrapped up by 5:35 pm or very shortly thereafter. Because at 5:35 it started raining, and pretty much continued to rain for the rest of the evening.

Based on the fact that the house is very small, I think most of the BBQ attendees would have seen the rain and the dark skies as a sign it was time to go home.

Here is the weather for Sunday, 5/15/05:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCOE/2005/5/15/DailyHistory.html

Yep, I think the rain literally put a damper on the party.Liz,

It would have to have been a very short BBQ since Marks brother was there in the afternoon and he even left his kid there while he went to visit their brother for awhile.

TIME LINES JUST DON'T FIT.........IMO

[close_enough]

BB,

None of the time-lines in my opinion make a damn bit of sense!

Also, like I said before, I put no stock in anything Lutner had to say.

i wouldn't put much stock either, except LE sure seems to think he told them the truth, by the transcripts for Dan Abrams show, on May 19th....they questioned him for 7 hours, & a polygraph...

[close_enough]

Liz,

It would have to have been a very short BBQ since Marks brother was there in the afternoon and he even left his kid there while he went to visit their brother for awhile.

TIME LINES JUST DON'T FIT.........IMO

maybe it was...maybe marks brother brought his son over around noon, & picked him up before 2 pm....folks came over shortly after that???, & Lutner got there around 5 or so, & didn't stay long??...i hadn't read anything about when he claims he left, but maybe it was around 6-ish...still plenty of daylight left...

[Tom'sGirl]

They came right out and said they believed him. Why would they believe him? Too much time has passed. If there was other people at the house, then their property, cars, cell phones and anything else that might bring in evidence should have been searched. And the available time still only leaves a few hours if that long between the time the last party people left and the other neighbor arrived and saw the blood on the door. If the nice people who nobody knows went home between 7 and 8, then who managed to find the opportunity to return, do the dirty deed and leave before the next neighbor shows up. That place was busier than grand central station.
Exactly BB,

He may have passed the Polygraph on questions about the murder and missing children, BUT it doesn't mean all the rest he told them was truthful.

Heck, they had been looking for him for awhile before he ever contacted the LE and the LE has never said where Lutner was at the time he contacted them!

[Liz]

Surely there were window coverings of some type.

[close_enough]

I hadn't realize that Lutner didn't know any of the people at the barbeque. Doesn't that seem strange? The brother didn't come and a guy they know well enough to lend 2 grand too doesn't know them, but there's a house full of people. Who are they? Where did they come? And how do you have a barbeque withouth lawn furniture? Pretty straight collared group if there was not drinking. Something smells here. How could a group of people show up at a house and the regulars just seem to show up at the end of the party and then one after the party, now seeming like it was late at night. yet that guy was willing to knock on the door even though the lights were off and he somehow managed to see blood on the door in the dark. This stinks.

i didn't know that either, except it does make sense now, somewhat...LE asked the public, whoever was at this BBQ, to please call them, so they could question them....they wouldn't have done this, imo, if Lutner had given them the names of everyone there....they had to ask the public, but from what i gather, they got in touch w/these people & got their prints....of course we don't know for sure that everyone that was there called LE, i guess :confused:

[close_enough]

Surely there were window coverings of some type.

you would think, but even with curtains or blinds, if it were night time, or getting close to sundown, someone would be able to tell if lights were on, inside, or not....if you're talking about, as far as someone seeing the bodies inside, we have sheer/lacey type curtains on a big window...if someone walked right up to the window, they would be able to see inside, if the lights are on....(course the window is up kinda high...they'd have to really stretch or use a ladder)

[Tom'sGirl]

maybe it was...maybe marks brother brought his son over around noon, & picked him up before 2 pm....folks came over shortly after that???, & Lutner got there around 5 or so, & didn't stay long??...i hadn't read anything about when he claims he left, but maybe it was around 6-ish...still plenty of daylight left...Well c_e, he and the rest of them obviously had left before the neighbors came over I guess :confused:

[Beyond Belief]

i didn't know that either, except it does make sense now, somewhat...LE asked the public, whoever was at this BBQ, to please call them, so they could question them....they wouldn't have done this, imo, if Lutner had given them the names of everyone there....they had to ask the public, but from what i gather, they got in touch w/these people & got their prints....of course we don't know for sure that everyone that was there called LE, i guess :confused:
Yeah fingerprints, I think they should have searched every automobile anyone was driving to see if there were traces of those kids. With all that hair Shasta has surely there would be some found in the car she was driven away in. If she was roughed up at all there will be hair left behind. I think all the officials are doing is digging around in the dirt and talking trying to solve this with interviews. It doesn't work that way. You have to round everyone up right off the bat and search and look at everything. This resembles the blunders of the Jessica Lunsford case. How could they not notice or question "what a ladder was doing place at a window" and a "shovel leaning against a trailer" over at Coueys place.

[Tom'sGirl]

you would think, but even with curtains or blinds, if it were night time, or getting close to sundown, someone would be able to tell if lights were on, inside, or not....if you're talki