Groene Murders-Theories?

[loveless]

I've heard two separate theories about the murders:

1-Brenda and Mark were killed by a hitman and Slade was not an intentional victim, but he was trying to save his mom, so the killers killed him too. Shasta and Dylan were taken to another location and their release is planned for a later date.

2-A depraved child molester/murderer gained the children's confidence prior to the killing and later kidnapped them.

Both scenarios are frightening, but I would say that the children probably have a beter chance of coming home safely with scenario #1.

[Tom'sGirl]

I've heard two separate theories about the murders:

1-Brenda and Mark were killed by a hitman and Slade was not an intentional victim, but he was trying to save his mom, so the killers killed him too. Shasta and Dylan were taken to another location and their release is planned for a later date.

2-A depraved child molester/murderer gained the children's confidence prior to the killing and later kidnapped them.

Both scenarios are frightening, but I would say that the children probably have a beter chance of coming home safely with scenario #1.I think there have been more than two theories regarding this case, and we've discussed them all!

[JerseyGirl]

Welcome to WS, loveless, and thank you for starting this thread! :)

Here are a couple of more I've read:

3 - It's random.

4 - Drug-related: Looking for drugs/money in the house.

5 - Drug-related: Attempting to collect money owed by Mark, Brenda ...

6 - Retaliation

7 - A warning for Jesse to keep quiet about what he might know.

[Maybe So]

I think that perhaps it is drug related or a vendetta....but not against Mark or Brenda...but perhaps a vendetta or warning aimed at Steve Groene.

To me the taking of the 2 children does not make sense if the target was Mark or Brenda. They are now dead and holding or harming the children would gain the murderers nothing.

However if Steve was the person they wanted inflict pain upon then killing his exwife and one child and taking 2 more of his children would certainly send him a message and cause him pain.

This might explain that supposedly Mark was not beaten as much as the other 2? Steve wouldn't care about what happened to Mark and Mark was only killed because he was there.

Just a theory off the top of my head....I don't know that much about this case.

[JerseyGirl]

To me the taking of the 2 children does not make sense if the target was Mark or Brenda. They are now dead and holding or harming the children would gain the murderers nothing.

However if Steve was the person they wanted inflict pain upon then killing his exwife and one child and taking 2 more of his children would certainly send him a message and cause him pain.
I hadn't even thought of that. That effect would be magnified by the possibility that Steve would be looked at as a suspect. So holding the kids as a vendetta against Steve might have a double impact. Interesting theory, MaybeSo.

[CaliKid]

I think that perhaps it is drug related or a vendetta....but not against Mark or Brenda...but perhaps a vendetta or warning aimed at Steve Groene.

To me the taking of the 2 children does not make sense if the target was Mark or Brenda. They are now dead and holding or harming the children would gain the murderers nothing.

However if Steve was the person they wanted inflict pain upon then killing his exwife and one child and taking 2 more of his children would certainly send him a message and cause him pain.

This might explain that supposedly Mark was not beaten as much as the other 2? Steve wouldn't care about what happened to Mark and Mark was only killed because he was there.

Just a theory off the top of my head....I don't know that much about this case.
I think this is an excellent possibility. It could also be one of the boys, either Vance or Jesse.

Vance moved out two weeks before because supposedly the drug use was escalating in the house, and he couldn't handle the tension. It has been suggested by several people that, if this was a hit, someone might have mistook Brenda and Mark for Vance and his girlfriend.

Jesse is in jail awaiting sentencing; maybe he knows something incriminating against somebody, and this is a way of silencing him. "We killed your mother and brother, and if you don't keep your mouth shut, we'll kill your sister and baby brother too."

Too many questions, not enough answers. Especially for the big one- where are Dylan and Shasta, and are they still alive?

[Wayne]

I think this is an excellent possibility. It could also be one of the boys, either Vance or Jesse.

Vance moved out two weeks before because supposedly the drug use was escalating in the house, and he couldn't handle the tension. It has been suggested by several people that, if this was a hit, someone might have mistook Brenda and Mark for Vance and his girlfriend.

Jesse is in jail awaiting sentencing; maybe he knows something incriminating against somebody, and this is a way of silencing him. "We killed your mother and brother, and if you don't keep your mouth shut, we'll kill your sister and baby brother too."

Too many questions, not enough answers. Especially for the big one- where are Dylan and Shasta, and are they still alive?

I agree CaliKid, "Too many questions, not enough answers."

[loveless]

Thanks. I really didn't go into much detail about the first theory, because I didn't want to appear to be accusing Steve. However, the theory suggests that Steve might have hired someone to kill Brenda and Mark so that he could have custody of the children. Once Slade tried to help them, he became a victim too (but Steve hadn't meant for him to be killed). This could help to explain why Steve failed the part of the polygraph that asked him if he knows where the children are. When I did a google search, I found several other examples of "murder for hire" where the ex-spouse had contracted a killer to bludgeon their ex-wife/husband to death. (There was also one where the children were taken from the house after the killing to another location)...

[Wayne]

Thanks. I really didn't go into much detail about the first theory, because I didn't want to appear to be accusing Steve. However, the theory suggests that Steve might have hired someone to kill Brenda and Mark so that he could have custody of the children. Once Slade tried to help them, he became a victim too (but Steve hadn't meant for him to be killed). This could help to explain why Steve failed the part of the polygraph that asked him if he knows where the children are. When I did a google search, I found several other examples of "murder for hire" where the ex-spouse had contracted a killer to bludgeon their ex-wife/husband to death. (There was also one where the children were taken from the house after the killing to another location)...
IMO, I tend to think Steve failed the part of the polygraph that asked him if he knows where the children are is because he did not want to admit to himself his two young children were likely dead (at that point in time, LE did not know that neither Shasta's blood or Dylan's blood was at the crime scene; he only knew blood was everywhere and LE was likely preparing him for bad news).

I wonder if LE gave Steve another polygraph test, if he'd fail that question again?

In this case, it seems anything is possible.

[close_enough]

IMO, I tend to think Steve failed the part of the polygraph that asked him if he knows where the children are is because he did not want to admit to himself his two young children were likely dead (at that point in time, LE did not know that neither Shasta's blood or Dylan's blood was at the crime scene; he only knew blood was everywhere and LE was likely preparing him for bad news).

I wonder if LE gave Steve another polygraph test, if he'd fail that question again?

In this case, it seems anything is possible.

good point...i had read this elsewhere, & i tend to agree..it's very possible, this is the reason he "failed" that question....

[CaliKid]

I don't think either the father or the two brothers are involved with this case. They may have vague ideas who did this, but IMO, they didn't.

[Rocky]

let me ask you all something...

what would you do if you went to visit a friend or relative and found the children being molested?

temporary insanity?

[Wayne]

let me ask you all something...

what would you do if you went to visit a friend or relative and found the children being molested?

temporary insanity?
Hi Rocky...
In response to your hypothetical situation... I'd likely get the child or children who are unable to defend themselves out of that unsafe situation and into a safe house. Then, I'd go back and either castrate or kill the perp(s).

Temporary insanity? Maybe.

[CaliKid]

As a former foster mother, I'd report to Child Protective Services or call the police.

[Liz]

Been thinking of how Mark just happened to advise his father of his wishes in the event of his death, just a week prior to being murdered. How odd is that? Did he have some intuition, or inkling; or was he aware that something was about to come down?

That advisement would have also been made only a matter of days after Vance moved out of his house. Now, I can't help but wonder if there is/was any connection between the two. Could Vance's departure from the house been due to a conflict with Mark?

Now I'm thinking how odd I felt it was that Vance 'outed' their drug activity and described how tension was rising in the house. hmmm...


:banghead: Can't seem to get this case off my mind.

[CaliKid]

Hmmmm, it makes you wonder if Mark and Brenda had been receiving threats they told nobody about.

[dannyodie]

Hmmmm, it makes you wonder if Mark and Brenda had been receiving threats they told nobody about.
very good find. I wonder since brenda had been in jail in the recent past if someone might have thought she had narked on someone for doing something, or exposed a drug dealer that may have been arrested sometime after she had her brush with the law? it is a good possibility that vance knows who could have done this. there is the possibility this IS drug/money related, people don't kill people over simple burgulary these folks were after SOMETHING or someone .

[mysteriew]

Some people think Dylan and Shasta Groene were snatched by drug dealers. Others think they might be hiding in the woods. There's a motorcycle gang war theory and a cult theory.

Nearly three weeks after 8-year-old Shasta and 9-year-old Dylan were reported missing from the home where their mother, older brother and mother's boyfriend were bound and bludgeoned to death, investigators say they have no clue where the children are -- and no suspect or motive.

Traces of methamphetamine were found in the bodies of Brenda Groene and McKenzie, fueling rumors of a drug hit.

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0606/idaho_ap.html

[JerseyGirl]

Been thinking of how Mark just happened to advise his father of his wishes in the event of his death, just a week prior to being murdered. How odd is that? Did he have some intuition, or inkling; or was he aware that something was about to come down?It could be but the way I understood it, Mark's dad was mentioning his wishes to Mark, and then Mark mentioned his own to his dad in response.

[Rocky]

Hi Rocky...
In response to your hypothetical situation... I'd likely get the child or children who are unable to defend themselves out of that unsafe situation and into a safe house. Then, I'd go back and either castrate or kill the perp(s).

Temporary insanity? Maybe.

I just happened to catch a Maury<?> show a while back and it was on parents that found out their child had been sexually molested, and how the parents took the law into their own hands...

I was surprised how many of the stories told how the parent was convicted of manslaughter, but walked free with 5 years probation...

so you might be on to something Wayne, all of them were tied down before being bludgioned to death, maybe they did take the time to remove the kids from the house before coming back and killing them...

I still feel they're alive, moved from Washington eastward to Montana.

one might be testing the border crossing seeing if they can find one slack enough to slip through...

do they have a system connecting the border crossings so if someone is crossing each day at different locations that they would stand out?

[Wayne]

so you might be on to something Wayne, all of them were tied down before being bludgioned to death, maybe they did take the time to remove the kids from the house before coming back and killing them...

I still feel they're alive, moved from Washington eastward to Montana.

one might be testing the border crossing seeing if they can find one slack enough to slip through...

do they have a system connecting the border crossings so if someone is crossing each day at different locations that they would stand out?
Washington, don't you mean Idaho? I believe the Groene's lived about 100 miles south of the Canadian border in Idaho. But if the perp(s) were really tricky, they might try south (Mexico - perhaps a border town). After all, there is about 60 hours that Lutner was "unaccounted" for - after leaving Brenda and her family Sunday night and turning himself in to LE in Idaho late afternoon Wednesday.

I believe the US Border Patrol does have a system like you described but it is tied to vehicle license plates. So, if a person steals or has multiple license plates, the system can be beat.

[Gracelin]

let me ask you all something...

what would you do if you went to visit a friend or relative and found the children being molested?

temporary insanity?
That is an understatement!! I think the insanity would last longer...

What if they (Mark, Slade or one of the older two boys) had molested someone, and the enraged parent came to confront?

[Wayne]

That is an understatement!! I think the insanity would last longer...

What if they (Mark, Slade or one of the older two boys) had molested someone, and the enraged parent came to confront?
Interesting idea, Gracelin.

If it was one of Slade's older brothers, I sense the parent would try to rescue Slade. For that theory to work, if would almost have to be Slade who perpetrated the molestation.

But where would Dylan and Shasta be? With the molested child's parents?

[Gracelin]

Interesting idea, Gracelin.

If it was one of Slade's older brothers, I sense the parent would try to rescue Slade. For that theory to work, if would almost have to be Slade who perpetrated the molestation.

But where would Dylan and Shasta be? With the molested child's parents?
I guess you got me there ... sounded good for a minute...

[Liz]

It could be but the way I understood it, Mark's dad was mentioning his wishes to Mark, and then Mark mentioned his own to his dad in response.


JG, I have this saying, "It's ALL in the perception". lol

When I first found and read that article that talks about their final wishes, I got the distinct impression that Mark had very possibly brought the subject up to his dad; perhaps by voicing his own wishes as a way to broach the subject. It's not a topic a lot of people feel comfortable with.

Who knows? We'll never really know for sure! ;)

Anyway, some say there are no such thing as coincidences.

[Wayne]

JG, I have this saying, "It's ALL in the perception". lol

When I first found and read that article that talks about their final wishes, I got the distinct impression that Mark had very possibly brought the subject up to his dad; perhaps by voicing his own wishes as a way to broach the subject. It's not a topic a lot of people feel comfortable with.

Who knows? We'll never really know for sure! ;)

Anyway, some say there are no such thing as coincidences.
I like that - It's ALL in the perception.

Maybe Mark had a friend who passed away and it got him thinking and he shared that thought with his father.

Yet, I agree - there are no such thing as coincidences.

[Liz]

I like that - It's ALL in the perception.

Maybe Mark had a friend who passed away and it got him thinking and he shared that thought with his father.

Yet, I agree - there are no such thing as coincidences.


I'm glad you like it, Wayne! I do, too as it's so true.

True, we just don't know. We don't know a lot and have to rely on the media bringing accurate info to us. Unfortunately the media are not that accurate. I have already caught both 'Dave', that reports for the CdA Press, and Geraldo, verbalizing erroneous information about this particular case.

I'm not sure I fully believe there are no such things as coincidences, but I'm beginning to! ;)

[Liz]

I wanted to answer this on this theory thread, so I moved Scifier's post from the "Shasta and Dylan" thread to reply.

Could this be a coincidence? Father Steve may have provided some info for DEA? Who knows?

June 9, 2005, 9:56PM
Investigation leads to string of biker gang arrests
By GENE JOHNSON

Associated Press
SEATTLE - Police and federal agents began rounding up members of the Bandidos biker gang Thursday after they were charged with crimes ranging from racketeering to dealing drugs and stolen Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

At least a dozen had been arrested by midday Thursday.


I've been thinking and researching this motorcycle gang theory since I saw it reported on the news Thursday evening. I agree, Scifier, along with Beyond Belief (on 'Shasta and Dylan' thread), that this seems to be an excellent theory!

If true, it would explain why Steve may have been cleared by investigators, so quickly.

If true, it might explain why so many federal investigatos were dispatched so quickly, to assist in the investigation.

If true, it might explain, why the children were kidnapped, and not for ransom. Just as a guarantee that certain parties would not be implicated by a snitch or an insider who might be privy to criminal activity.

If true, it may explain why Steve wanted to put up his Harley as a reward.

If true, it surely explains a lot of things, IMO!

Eta: Law Enforcement Puts the Brakes on Outlaw Motorcycle Gang (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050609/clth077.html?.v=10)

[Liz]

This was a training seminar, offered last year, that I found out about by doing a google search:

Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigation Training (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:H9gF0qmTCYIJ:www.idaho-post.org/Training/documents/MotorcycleGang-ORPOST.doc+outlaw+motorcycle+gangs+in+Idaho&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

What: Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigation Training
*
When: April 28-30, 2004***** *

Where: Vancouver, WA

Red Lion Hotel at the Quay
100 Columbia St.*
Cost:* FREE*

Lodging:* At the Quay: 360-694-8341*

To Register: Contact Rachel Daves, 206-835-7308 or rdaves@cjtc.state.wa.us* for application.*

Contact:** for course content contact Roger Heine at 206-835-7317* rorheine@cjtc.state.wa.us***** *

Target Audience: Patrol, narcotics, intelligence, vice, Probation/Parole, weapons & fugitive units
*
Topics: Investigative resources, intelligence exchange, female UCC infiltration, gang overview, undercover infiltration case studies, developing informants.*

Re:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-crim-3@ous.edu [mailto:owner-crim-3@ous.edu]On Behalf Of Joey Ngan
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:14 AM
To: crim-3@osshe.edu

Subject: 04/28-30 Outlaw Motorcycle
Gang Investigation, Vancouver, WA*

Re-posted courtesy of:
Nevada Commission on Peace Officers' Standards and Training
3476 Executive Pointe Way, Ste. 12A
Carson City, NV 89706
775.684.7678
www.post.state.nv.us


I thought this was verrry interrresting.

[Liz]

Some folks are of the belief that the date of the murders might be significant. Best we can tell, the family was murdered on May 15th or 16th.

Googling around I found that the NWGIA (http://www.nw-gia.org/) was to host a seminar, pertaining to gangs (among other topics), which began on the 16th. Hmmmm .... Makes you wonder if certain individuals didn't want LE attending that seminar, for one reason or another.


Welcome to the NorthWest Gang Investigators Association

The Spring NWGIA Gang Conference was a rousing success. We had over 180 gang investigators in attendance during the week of May 16 through 19. The Holiday Inn at Wilsonville was a perfect venue for this event. Training was provided in such topics as Domestic Terrorism, Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs, MS13, Gang Tattoos, and numerous other topics of timely importance to our agencies.

[scifier]

My other thought on this is grim at best. If the theory is true regarding the motorcycle gang etc., then I believe that the children are probably not going to be found, especially when the raids and arrests happened. I was hoping that after the raids the children would somehow show up. It doesnt look likely now, unless as I theorized before that someone may cop a plea knowing the childrens whereabouts, if they are alive that is.

My other thought I keep coming back to is Messerley and even Vance. I thought I read where Vance moved out 2 weeks prior to the murders due to conflicts. Does anyone have anymore info on this? Because of the nature of the crime, statistics show a high probability of a family member being involved. Maybe there was some molestation going on. Maybe Mark, maybe even Slade. Maybe Mom knew, but did nothing. Would explain some things. It's just a theory IMO that has been brought up before. This family was highly dysfunctional at best and Brenda was not the most wonderful Mother on earth as she was using meth on a regular basis. Anyone who has had any experience with these types of drug users will agree. If this theory is correct, the children are probably safe somewhere as that was the logic behind the killings (to protect them).

[Wayne]

My other thought on this is grim at best. If the theory is true regarding the motorcycle gang etc., then I believe that the children are probably not going to be found, especially when the raids and arrests happened. I was hoping that after the raids the children would somehow show up. It doesnt look likely now, unless as I theorized before that someone may cop a plea knowing the childrens whereabouts, if they are alive that is.

My other thought I keep coming back to is Messerley and even Vance. I thought I read where Vance moved out 2 weeks prior to the murders due to conflicts. Does anyone have anymore info on this? Because of the nature of the crime, statistics show a high probability of a family member being involved. Maybe there was some molestation going on. Maybe Mark, maybe even Slade. Maybe Mom knew, but did nothing. Would explain some things. It's just a theory IMO that has been brought up before. This family was highly dysfunctional at best and Brenda was not the most wonderful Mother on earth as she was using meth on a regular basis. Anyone who has had any experience with these types of drug users will agree. If this theory is correct, the children are probably safe somewhere as that was the logic behind the killings (to protect them).
Vance did move out about two weeks prior to the murders. I believe he did mention one reason (of several) being increasing tensions in the household.

The link is here (http://www.ksbitv.com/home/1581771.html) (from May 26 2005)...
Groene's oldest son, Vance, 20, who also took an FBI polygraph test, said on the same program that he was close to his mother and was aware of mounting tension in the household -- one of the reasons he recently moved away.

Vance Groene said his mother was worried that McKenzie, who lived with her, was drifting away.

The son said the couple used the illegal drug crystal methamphetamine.

He said he believed his mother's drug use had increased in the past year and it was no longer an occasional recreational habit.

Kootenai County coroner Dr. Robert West said last week that a preliminary toxicology report showed the presence of "illicit drugs" in the two adults, but not in the teen. West did not say what drugs were found.

"I get the impression that the last couple of weeks, stuff was getting a little more stressful and a little harder to deal with," Vance Groene said.

[CaliKid]

Maybe the stress on the family was external, as in Brenda and/or Mark being threatened, and they didn't tell Vance. He just picks up on general stress because maybe Brenda began using more meth to compensate for it, so he moves out.

[Tom'sGirl]

Maybe the stress on the family was external, as in Brenda and/or Mark being threatened, and they didn't tell Vance. He just picks up on general stress because maybe Brenda began using more meth to compensate for it, so he moves out.OR, he was living there maybe with his girlfriend and kid/s and tensions grew due to them supporting him.

I have never read that Vance worked anywhere, has anyone else?

[Lili]

OR, he was living there maybe with his girlfriend and kid/s and tensions grew due to them supporting him.

I have never read that Vance worked anywhere, has anyone else?Interesting you asked about Vance. I tried to post this afternoon and it wouldn't post properly. I had been reading some of the news, etc. that I have saved and noted: "Brenda K. Groene, 38, use or possession of drug paraphernalia with intent to use; $300 fine, one year in jail (355 days suspended), two years' probation." That came from the Spokesman Review, Sept. 2003. So Brenda, who's probation would have been served, had she completed it, about Sept. 2005. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200309/ai_n11684117

Ok, now Vance, in Aug. 2002, lived at Coeur d'Alene when his son was born.

However, in July 2003: Kootenai County "This represents all of the felony bookings between 6 a.m. on Friday, July 3, and 6 a.m. on Friday, July 10.....Groene, Vance R. 18, Spokane, burglary, four previous adult bookings, two adult warrants." (His address is listed at Spokane.) Again, from the Spokesman Review. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200307/ai_n11680946

[Tom'sGirl]

Interesting you asked about Vance. I tried to post this afternoon and it wouldn't post properly. I had been reading some of the news, etc. that I have saved and noted: "Brenda K. Groene, 38, use or possession of drug paraphernalia with intent to use; $300 fine, one year in jail (355 days suspended), two years' probation." That came from the Spokesman Review, Sept. 2003. So Brenda, who's probation would have been served, had she completed it, about Sept. 2005. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200309/ai_n11684117

Ok, now Vance, in Aug. 2002, lived at Coeur d'Alene when his son was born.

However, in July 2003: Kootenai County "This represents all of the felony bookings between 6 a.m. on Friday, July 3, and 6 a.m. on Friday, July 10.....Groene, Vance R. 18, Spokane, burglary, four previous adult bookings, two adult warrants." (His address is listed at Spokane.) Again, from the Spokesman Review. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200307/ai_n11680946
I posted on another thread about the Motor Home that was on the propery and who, if anyone lived in it?

I kind of thinking that Motor home may be where Vance was staying at his mom's place???


I'm also wondering if they hauled off that Motor Home as evidence also as I've never heard it mentioned (only a U-Haul of evidence)

[Lili]

Hum...I wasn't even aware that a motor home was on the property. It probably did provide extra bedroom space! :rolleyes: At least during warmer months! Or they might have used it to go camping too.

[Tom'sGirl]

Hum...I wasn't even aware that a motor home was on the property. It probably did provide extra bedroom space! :rolleyes: At least during warmer months! Or they might have used it to go camping too.I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the Sealed Warrant :confused: