Financial Insanity (not just embezzlement)

[cappuccina]

...Does anyone else think that any of this is odd...irresponsible...or??

1. How can you be on public assistance...welfare, Medicaid, WIC, Section 8 housing or whatever, and own God knows how many electronic toys, 3 computers, 2 VX's (UNBELIEVABLE), cars (didn't he have a motorcycle too?), a ton of expensive automotive and other accessories, expensive clothes...are these not reported as ASSETS when you fill out the aid forms....doesn't someone check on this?? I drive a used truck, my husband drives an ANCIENT truck, and my husband is an engineer for God's sake...we have no "state of the art" electronics - meaning our computers are not new...I bought hubby a PDA AT A GARAGE SALE..., and we do not have a TV in the living room...

2. How can you with good conscience accept financial and food assistance from your church, if you own all of this material crap that you could sell to get money for food things for the baby, etc.

3. All of this stuff must have been on credit; there is no way these people could have made the payments on any of this, along with rent, etc. Who would give high credit lines for all of this stuff to someone like Raven?

NCBanker - help me out with my estimates here, please:

Edited to say that I am asking for your help because of your financial expertise, and because you live in the area...I am a Northerner...some things are more expensive up here!!

Rent and utilities...had to be at least $600/month, could be as high as $900/month....car payment...$250 - 300/month, motorcycle payment another $250 - 300/month...VX payments$600/month at least (for 2 of them)...food - minimum $500/month...credit card payments for accessories, clothes, etc. - minimum $50-100/month....plus phone bill cable bill, etc.

How could they come up with this, with the type of jobs they had?

...What a nightmare; Janet must have been scared out of her mind!

[Jenifred]

Were they on welfare or any of those programs?

[cappuccina]

...don't know which programs...in addition, they were getting church assistance, and assistance from their landord who lowered their rent, I believe, and/or gave them a short "grace" period...

[NCBanker]

I'd say you're pretty close - just remember to include insurance, which is probably $130 per month, broadband internet - $50, and tithing to the Church (if they paid it) is 10% of your GROSS income. I'd say they were cash strapped, but I could be wrong.

[Jenifred]

...don't know which programs...in addition, they were getting church assistance, and assistance from their landord who lowered their rent, I believe, and/or gave them a short "grace" period...
They would have never qualified for those programs with all of the stuff they have. Cars alone would put them over the edge on qualifying, not to mention that they were both employed.

[ewwwinteresting]

:laugh: I'd say they were cash strapped.
That may be the understatement of the year!

[cappuccina]

...be on WIC to get nutritious food for your child, as well as on some quasi-Meicaid programs - like Birth-to-Three, where you get basic medical care while you are pregnant and for the child until s/he is three years of age...

They posisbly could have qualified for these types of prgrams if their health insurance were lacking or non-existant...I could even understand this...

However, the housing assistance they received from their landlord, and if they received other welfare benefits was BECAUSE OF RAVEN'S MATERIALISTIC OBSESSIONS, in contrast with families like my sons' good friend...the family with 4 kids (one disabled), who rents their house...everything is on the house is falling apart - yet it's cozty and speaks of well-loved children everywhere, the kids are always clean and well-fed, and the parents scrape together money they don't have for musical instruments, sports, music and dance lessons and the like...ALL FOR THEIR KIDS...

[newkid]

In my job I see people on state assistance with all kinds of expensive electronic toys, etc. that I don't have and can't afford. It just doesn't bother some people.

As far as getting the credit, perhaps those granting the credit were charmed by Raven?

[SouthEastSleuth]

One observation, having lived in the area for a number of years, and knowing quite a few folks who invest in real estate, etc., I would be really, really surprised if that house rented for less than $1000/month. Shocked actually. I would GUESS somewhere between $1000-1500, but again, that's a guess on my part.

[Jenifred]

Does someone have information that they were using any federal programs to get by (ie, WIC, Medicaid, FoodStamps, etc)?

My opinion only, I think that even if they would have needed it and would have qualified for it, Raven wouldn't have used them. Too much of a blow to the ego.

[cappuccina]

...based on the fact that housing is generally less down South. However, since you live there, and since it sounds like they were renting in a nicer area, (probably where most of the homes were owned), then paying over $1000/mo. for rent only adds to the insanity, especially considering that they could have owned and had mortgage payment for LESS than that...

Jennifred...I hear what you're saying...The other way it could have gone is that either Janet applied for WIC/Birth-to-Three for Kaiden's and her own sake (since these are MATERNAL-CHILD health/welfare benefits, she could have applied without Raven...could have been on them without him even knowing ,if she was careful to shop for the WIC food when she was by herself...The Birth-to-Three program would be no problem, because she would just have to present a special card at her OB visits, or at Kaiden's pediatric visits,; I'm sure Raven was not along for those visits very often...I'm a stay-at-home mom; my husband has only had to take the kids to the doctor twice in 12 years!) I could see her being scared, especially when he kept changing jobs and then got arrested for the embezzlement, and applying just to know that her child would be safe...Also, if you are in "in the system" for WIC/BT3 benefits, this opens up other doors, like HeadStart daycare, etc. She could have done this knowing that she was going to leave him, and making sure that her child got coverage...She would have qualified for a lot more than WIC/BT3 if she had left him, also) Note that I could also see Raven "gaming the system" and applying for and taking whatever he could (Mr. Entitlement), and just not telling anyone...

[PrayersForMaura]

Does someone have information that they were using any federal programs to get by (ie, WIC, Medicaid, FoodStamps, etc)?

My opinion only, I think that even if they would have needed it and would have qualified for it, Raven wouldn't have used them. Too much of a blow to the ego.
Did the search warrant list food stamps as just an item that could be seized (you know, all the numbers they left ... 25 means this, 26 means this.... etc.)
or was it listed as something that was taken?
I can't remember... I know you guys were trying to figure out the silver currency and someone listed food stamps as a choice for something seized??

[ewwwinteresting]

How could they come up with this, with the type of jobs they had?

...What a nightmare; Janet must have been scared out of her mind!
Does anybody know Raven's and Janet's approximately salaries while they worked at Eurosport? It would be interesting to see if they were able to support this lifestyle (on credit, of course) until he was fired and she had to quit!

[ewwwinteresting]

Does anybody know Raven's and Janet's approximately salaries while they worked at Eurosport? It would be interesting to see if they were able to support this lifestyle (on credit, of course) until he was fired and she had to quit!
I'm quoting myself here.....wondering if anybody knew what salary their positions would have paid?

[lauriej]

Does anybody know Raven's and Janet's approximately salaries while they worked at Eurosport? It would be interesting to see if they were able to support this lifestyle (on credit, of course) until he was fired and she had to quit!
.........i had given him the benefit of the doubt...........as he was trying to sell his ducati motorcycle ...back in jan.05.....until:

02/17/2005, 02:34 AM
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Super VXer
99, Ironman VX, 1455
Chapel Hill, NC US
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Thanks for the bump... Yeah, the bikes got low miles and only ridden a few months out of year. I just need to unload it so thats why the low price...

As for the R1... I like the R1. They had an 03 model at the dealership brand new for 8k. I considered jumping on it but my next bike has to be a cruiser because OC Choppers got me interested and I've driven a few and I love the ride... I've got my eye on a sup'd up, stripped down Yamaha Roadstar Warrior. The thing rumbles like a harley and has the computer chip of an R1, which makes for a hellishly fast cruiser!

..................selling one....................to buy another ?...good grief.....

[golfmom]

Show Me The Lines Of Credit!

[SouthEastSleuth]

One other possibility to consider, as to Raven's finances since being fired from Eurosport -

Keep in mind, as evidenced by Raven's eBay account that we've discussed, "futbalrguy" became "lostmyjobsales" on January 19, 2005 - AFTER Raven was fired from Eurosport. Perhaps he still had embezzled "inventory" to get rid of, or, perhaps he changed the name just to sell things routinely on eBay....

He obviously did NOT want to be linked to the "futbalrguy" moniker any longer...and one could surmise that "lostmyjobsales" was picked to elicit, perhaps, sympathy as a seller (in the vein of, "poor me, I''ve lost my job, help me out here by buying my items"). And presumably, he planned to continue at least some sort of presence on eBay, otherwise, why bother to change anything at all...

I've looked around on eBay as best I can, but perhaps someone more savvy than me can dig around to see if Raven is perhaps still using eBay, but with some other new name entirely?? I have no idea if that is the case...just trying to think of ways that Raven could have been supporting himself, etc..

[ewwwinteresting]

One other possibility to consider, as to Raven's finances since being fired from Eurosport -

Keep in mind, as evidenced by Raven's eBay account that we've discussed, "futbalrguy" became "lostmyjobsales" on January 19, 2005 - AFTER Raven was fired from Eurosport. Perhaps he still had embezzled "inventory" to get rid of, or, perhaps he changed the name just to sell things routinely on eBay....

He obviously did NOT want to be linked to the "futbalrguy" moniker any longer...and one could surmise that "lostmyjobsales" was picked to elicit, perhaps, sympathy as a seller (in the vein of, "poor me, I''ve lost my job, help me out here by buying my items"). And presumably, he planned to continue at least some sort of presence on eBay, otherwise, why bother to change anything at all...

I've looked around on eBay as best I can, but perhaps someone more savvy than me can dig around to see if Raven is perhaps still using eBay, but with some other new name entirely?? I have no idea if that is the case...just trying to think of ways that Raven could have been supporting himself, etc..
or he went from ebay to pawn shops!

[lauriej]

....i agree, i'm quite sure he is still umloading merchandise...........but no longer under any name we'd come up with...

...i'm sure g/m, JG, TOL and other ebay experts are on it....!

...we have heard that there was a 2nd connection in regard to the ebay merchandise sales............( possibly..)...i'd say that's the person we're looking for.....


One other possibility to consider, as to Raven's finances since being fired from Eurosport -

Keep in mind, as evidenced by Raven's eBay account that we've discussed, "futbalrguy" became "lostmyjobsales" on January 19, 2005 - AFTER Raven was fired from Eurosport. Perhaps he still had embezzled "inventory" to get rid of, or, perhaps he changed the name just to sell things routinely on eBay....

He obviously did NOT want to be linked to the "futbalrguy" moniker any longer...and one could surmise that "lostmyjobsales" was picked to elicit, perhaps, sympathy as a seller (in the vein of, "poor me, I''ve lost my job, help me out here by buying my items"). And presumably, he planned to continue at least some sort of presence on eBay, otherwise, why bother to change anything at all...

I've looked around on eBay as best I can, but perhaps someone more savvy than me can dig around to see if Raven is perhaps still using eBay, but with some other new name entirely?? I have no idea if that is the case...just trying to think of ways that Raven could have been supporting himself, etc..

[ewwwinteresting]

....i agree, i'm quite sure he is still umloading merchandise...........but no longer under any name we'd come up with...

...i'm sure g/m, JG, TOL and other ebay experts are on it....!

...we have heard that there was a 2nd connection in regard to the ebay merchandise sales............( possibly..)...i'd say that's the person we're looking for.....
Oh, like IF he used his mother to help him embezzle from his employer, he would also use her to help sell the stuff on ebay? Hmmm.....that's a possibility!

[SouthEastSleuth]

"In court, Abaroa said he used the cash from the shoe sales for car repairs and paying bills."


You know, we've discussed a lot about that fact that Raven was having financial difficulties, etc... but the more I think about it, I wonder just how stressed the finances actually were...

We know Raven was stealing from Eurosport, and then selling stolen merchandise on eBay. We know this was going on even into December 2004. During the time, until January 2005, Raven was still employed at ES, drawing a salary, etc. Janet was also working full time at ES as well, drawing a salary.

Raven was supplementing his ES salary with dirty money from his eBay sales.

We now know that Raven still had stolen inventory on hand - presumably to be sold at some point in time.

Remember, Raven's eBay user name changed from futbalrguy to lostmyjobsales AFTER he was fired from ES! Which leads me to believe that "Raven's eBay Soccer Shop" was still up and operating, at least for awhile (as is also evidenced by his on hand inventory!)

I have no confirmation of this, but I heard that the Ducati was in fact sold... We know it was listed for sale in February as I recall. If it sold, presumably he made at least several thousand dollars on the sale I would guess.

So even after being fired from ES:

-Raven could have had money from eBay sales still coming in
-Money from the Ducati sale
-Possibly money from a any 401(k) type accounts at ES (perhaps the mysterious Matrix Capital check?)
-We've heard that Raven had actually started another job of some sort prior to Janet's murder
-We know Janet had started working at Martin Marietta
-We know Raven still had stolen inventory in his possession
-We know something(s) had been pawned for cash

*Presumably, utilities, etc., were being paid and maintained.
*Presumably, from what we know anyway, there is no evidence of being behind in car payments.
*We can easily infer that internet service was on-going.
*Cell phones seem to have been on-going.
*We know for a fact that the property taxes on Janet's car were paid during this time.

All of this in the three or so months prior to the end of April.

Yet, the landlord has to let the rent slide for a couple of months?
Yet, the church helps out with rent for a month?

Sure, we know clearly by now that Raven led an exorbitant lifestyle, etc. So surely there were all sorts of bills, debt, etc. Possibly living on credit most of the time even?

But, if he could not even pay his rent? WHERE WAS THE CASH ON HAND GOING?

Still spending haphazardly on toys and other frivolous things? Maybe
Just keeping up with credit card payments? Maybe

But if you are in dire financial straights, wouldn't basic common sense say to you that one thing that is critically important to pay is housing, ie., RENT?

While I do think times might have been tough financially, and certainly not what they were in the preceding fall, I do think there was money around - there almost had to be - on some level or another....

My guess is - whatever money was still around and/or coming in, was being BLOWN. Raven had an image to protect and uphold, and my feeling is, he'd do that at whatever cost possible - even to the extent of using his church for assistance!

[golfmom]

He is the author of his own misery. The man has absolutely no self-control or discipline.

[nanandjim]

They would have never qualified for those programs with all of the stuff they have. Cars alone would put them over the edge on qualifying, not to mention that they were both employed.
I have family members who know how to beat the system. I think that it is absolutely disgusting. They work at jobs where they are mainly paid in cash. Most of their assets are in the mother-in-law's name. They take several all-inclusive trips a year, buy new cars, have a boat, are on welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, whatever is offered for a free ride. They live in a big house which has an in-ground swimming pool.

As a matter of fact, my brother-in-law just ran up all of his credit cards to the max. He got veneers on all of his teeth and paid in advance for his son's education. He hasn't worked in months. THEN, he filed for bankruptcy. He is proud of this fact.

I am assuming this guy had his credit cards maxed to the limit. If you are paying for all of the material things that you have, you don't really own them.

[juliagoulia]

Also, the fact that Raven didn't own their cars would make them more likely to receive public assistance. You can't be eligible for welfare if you own expensive vehicles, but you can if you are paying on them! It is illogical on so many levels...

I have family members who know how to beat the system. I think that it is absolutely disgusting. They work at jobs where they are mainly paid in cash. Most of their assets are in the mother-in-law's name. They take several all-inclusive trips a year, buy new cars, have a boat, are on welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, whatever is offered for a free ride. They live in a big house which has an in-ground swimming pool.

As a matter of fact, my brother-in-law just ran up all of his credit cards to the max. He got veneers on all of his teeth and paid in advance for his son's education. He hasn't worked in months. THEN, he filed for bankruptcy. He is proud of this fact.

I am assuming this guy had his credit cards maxed to the limit. If you are paying for all of the material things that you have, you don't really own them.

[ewwwinteresting]

It's much easier to get someone (or a church) to help pay for rent then it is for a VX payment or credit card payments. I'm guessing raven was spending money on his girlfriends!

julia: regarding your siggy, think God can count up as high as he would need to in this case??

[ewwwinteresting]

I have family members who know how to beat the system. I think that it is absolutely disgusting. They work at jobs where they are mainly paid in cash. Most of their assets are in the mother-in-law's name. They take several all-inclusive trips a year, buy new cars, have a boat, are on welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, whatever is offered for a free ride. They live in a big house which has an in-ground swimming pool.

As a matter of fact, my brother-in-law just ran up all of his credit cards to the max. He got veneers on all of his teeth and paid in advance for his son's education. He hasn't worked in months. THEN, he filed for bankruptcy. He is proud of this fact.

I am assuming this guy had his credit cards maxed to the limit. If you are paying for all of the material things that you have, you don't really own them.
Well, we know raven worked his church's system of gratitude. And may very well as we speak be working the government system. GIVE ME FREE money and benefits. I wonder if they pay more to :loser:s??

[Bobbisangel]

Does anybody know Raven's and Janet's approximately salaries while they worked at Eurosport? It would be interesting to see if they were able to support this lifestyle (on credit, of course) until he was fired and she had to quit!


It sounds like they were meeting their bills each month because of the money he was stealing from the company. He probably stole whatever amount they needed to make the bills over and above their salaries. Then he got caught
and had no money until Janet found another job and her paycheck sure wouldn't have covered their bills.

Janet must have known that their salaries weren't enough to cover their bills.
I wonder where she thought the extra money was coming from. I know I would have wondered. Maybe Raven told her he got a raise or something.

[juliagoulia]

julia: regarding your siggy, think God can count up as high as he would need to in this case??
I'm sure He won't miss a single one!

[JerseyGirl]

[QUOTE=SouthEastSleuth-Possibly money from a any 401(k) type accounts at ES (perhaps the mysterious Matrix Capital check?)[/QUOTE]It would be very strange for someone in dire financial straits to have an uncashed check lying around for the amount of that check.