General Discussions #5

[Timex]

continue general discussion here please

[golfmom]

Could it be that they're not too worried about him fleeing right now with the embezzlement charges hanging over his head?

[Timex]

Could it be that they're not too worried about him fleeing right now with the embezzlement charges hanging over his head?

Yes, that could well be. Is the embezzlement the only criminal problem he has ever had? Or does he have other criminal activity in his past?

[golfmom]

Yes, that could well be. Is the embezzlement the only criminal problem he has ever had? Or does he have other criminal activity in his past?

It was posted here that there was charges filed for attacking a referee. One of our members was going to see if they could find the paperwork regarding it.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Could it be that they're not too worried about him fleeing right now with the embezzlement charges hanging over his head?
I've often wondered, and this is truly dramatic speculation LOL, if LE has not said anything in a while, as they know he has a court date this week...and they have been working both angles, murder and embezzlement, and if any big dramatic thing will happen before, during, or after the hearing on Friday.

(Ok, stop laughing! I know it sounds like TV material! LOL)

[golfmom]

(Ok, stop laughing! I know it sounds like TV material! LOL)

I want to watch that episode!

[Timex]

Thanks...trying to get a "feel" of what he could expect from the embezzlement issue.

First time offender...not a large amount of money etc...would he be facing jail time? Or restitution and probation?

If there are other criminal issues, it could effect the outcome of the embezzlement charges.

[golfmom]

Thanks...trying to get a "feel" of what he could expect from the embezzlement issue.

First time offender...not a large amount of money etc...would he be facing jail time? Or restitution and probation?

If there are other criminal issues, it could effect the outcome of the embezzlement charges.

Timex, I did some research on this awhile back and posted. Under NORMAL circumstances he would get probation, community service, repayment of embezzled amount, and fines. He could face time, but more than likely not.

[SouthEastSleuth]

It was posted here that there was charges filed for attacking a referee. One of our members was going to see if they could find the paperwork regarding it.
Ok GM! That was an none to subtle reminder! LOL

That member was ME!

And, I did indeed check. And then completely forgot about it, because it yielded me nothing (but a big ol' waste of two hours of my time! LOL).

IF that (referee assault) happened in Durham County, there is no record of it whatsoever. Now that said, it could have easily been in one of the neigboring counties, Orange or Wake. Those I did NOT check.

[JerseyGirl]

That's an interesting observation! Mine was he didn't just want to fit in, but he wanted to be crowned the King of VXers. Remember, he found them because he wanted to figure out how to get rid of his PoS vehicle that he now hated, he FORCED Janet to drive it because he didn't want to. Then he discovered THE CLUB and bought every accessory and REPAINTED it black (see Big Boy Toys) so he would have the purtiest VX in the world.
But see, I think that this illustrates my point even more. He wanted to dump that car. Then when he found out that there was this web site, and he started to chat, he decided to keep the car and make it better and better so he could become a part of this "club". He did what he felt he had to do to become a part of the club; to be a part of SOMETHING.

He almost reminds me of a child in this situation, and here is the scenario. Did you ever have a child say something like "I hate broccoli", (or this movie, this book, this song, etc), and you as the parent say "Really? I LOVE broccoli". So then the kid says "Well, I don't really HATE it ..." Before you know it, the kid is asking for broccoli for dinner, (or watching the movie, reading the book for the 3rd time, singing the song, etc.) I've seen this HUNDREDS of times with all types of children. It's almost as if they say that they like what we like just to try to please us. Maybe Raven wanted to please them with his amazing VX so that he would be welcomed with open arms into their club.

He started out wanting to dump the car, then after spending some time at the site & "talking" to people, he started to modify the car little by little, and by the end of it, he's talking about how they are all part of a unique club or some such nonsense.

[golfmom]

Ok GM! That was an none to subtle reminder! LOL

That member was ME!

And, I did indeed check. And then completely forgot about it, because it yielded me nothing (but a big ol' waste of two hours of my time! LOL).
.

Sorry SES! I thought the check date was scheduled a little later this week ... LOL! But honestly, it doesn't even have to be in NC. What if it happened in Virginia?

[newkid]

I think Timex is right, that they can't tell you not to leave the area if you have not been charged with anything. As long as his attorney knows where to contact him, he can go anywhere he wants. I'll double check with some friends in LE, though laws may vary from state to state.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Sorry SES! I thought the check date was scheduled a little later this week ... LOL! But honestly, it doesn't even have to be in NC. What if it happened in Virginia?
True! And unless we had a location, it'd be really hard to verify... Could be anywhere in NC, VA, or who knows where else. A lot of the soccer leagues play in tournaments, etc., all over a state, and even out of state, quite often actually!

(You're right, I was going down there later in the week...but was in the neighborhood and stopped! I was just giving you a little grief...you know that! :) :) :) :)

[golfmom]

But see, I think that this illustrates my point even more. ............

He started out wanting to dump the car, then after spending some time at the site & "talking" to people, he started to modify the car little by little, and by the end of it, he's talking about how they are all part of a unique club or some such nonsense.

I never meant to disagree with you :blowkiss:
because I actually agree that he was desperate to fit in
but, he wasn't satisfied just being a regular ole guy in the club
he wanted to be KING of the club
with the most tricked out limited edition collector's version VX

[Timex]

JerseyGirl,

Ive known guys just like that. They weren't really "bad" guys, just guys that for whatever reason cant/wont grow-up.

That said, I certainly wouldnt want to be married to one, as the problems would be never ending.

[newkid]

golfmom's "King of the VXers" statement was the same impression I got from reading his posts. My husband has commented a bit more about Raven and has said he (Raven) always tried to bring the focus of any situation around to himself.

[newkid]

And a part of me strongly agrees with this as well. I've ranted and raved several times here at WS about this very same point. I just try to remind myself that even if Raven is a big jerk, he might be only a big jerk. Until I feel 100% confident that he's a murderer, that small bit of compassion still comes into play. As a jerk who doesn't even realize how annoying he is, I feel bad for him. As a murderer, I surely don't.You make a good point, I too feel bad for him that he doesn't realize how annoying he is. Also, I didn't mean to imply that I think he's guilty of murder just because he is a jerk. I haven't made up my mind on who did it yet, I need more information. I sincerely hope he didn't do it and that perhaps this experience, even though it's so horrible, will help him change his ways and be a good example for his son. Regardless of whether or not he's guilty of murder, I'm sorry he had a rough childhood.

[Timex]

ok..Ive been reading through some of the early media articles, and have a question.

In one of original articles, LE made a statement something like "we have nothing that would indicate this is a random crime".

What indicates a random crime?

I just keep thinking back to when Jessica was missing and LE kept saying they could not call it an abduction because there was "nothing to indicate she had been abducted".

[chicoliving]

Well, its not exactly a crime of opportunity although that could be argued......possibly the way the scene was left indicates a specific search for something by the perp rather than random searching throughout the house......

[golfmom]

ok..Ive been reading through some of the early media articles, and have a question.

In one of original articles, LE made a statement something like "we have nothing that would indicate this is a random crime".


Remember, that earlier than that were reports of co-workers on the scene as well that were concerned for Janet's safety. Then shortly after the "we have nothing that would indicated this is a random crime," comments they released the search warrant. And, again and again they keep with that line ... 1 + 1 + 1 =
Just my opinion, but it is very interesting what LE has released and has not released. Even without everything here, if I were him ... I'd be worried ... LE isn't saying he's a suspect, but no one is going out of their way to say that he isn't right now.

[Timex]

Well, its not exactly a crime of opportunity although that could be argued......possibly the way the scene was left indicates a specific search for something by the perp rather than random searching throughout the house......


Right, but they didnt say it wasnt a random crime...only that they had no indication that it was. Same in Jessica's case, they didnt say it wasnt an abduction, only that they had no indication of such.

If the intent was rape, not theft etc...what would indicate random or non random?

[golfmom]

Police will not say if they have any suspects in the case or a motive, but they are saying it was not a random murder. Abaroa's husband retained an attorney late last week.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:p1E7X-646N8J:www.wral.com/news/4443707/detail.html+janet+abaroa+random&hl=en

[Jesstexas]

what would indicate random or non random?
Signs of forced entry would indicate a random crime (wouldn't it?)

[Timex]

Remember, that earlier than that were reports of co-workers on the scene as well that were concerned for Janet's safety. Then shortly after the "we have nothing that would indicated this is a random crime," comments they released the search warrant. And, again and again they keep with that line ... 1 + 1 + 1 =
Just my opinion, but it is very interesting what LE has released and has not released. Even without everything here, if I were him ... I'd be worried ... LE isn't saying he's a suspect, but no one is going out of their way to say that he isn't right now.

Of course he should be worried, he was the last person to see her, he is her spouse...so he is obviously one of the top suspects.

As for using the line over and over again, that doesnt tell me much, as they often do that to keep from releasing new information. From the way I read the news articles, Im not even sure if LE has said anything more than once or twice. I see it as the media re-using what was originally said.

When was the last public statement by LE in this case?

[Timex]

Signs of forced entry would indicate a random crime (wouldn't it?)

Yes, but would lack of it mean it wasnt?

[Timex]

Police will not say if they have any suspects in the case or a motive, but they are saying it was not a random murder. Abaroa's husband retained an attorney late last week.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:p1E7X-646N8J:www.wral.com/news/4443707/detail.html+janet+abaroa+random&hl=en


But if you notice they are not quoting LE in that statement. It could have been based on what LE originally said.

[golfmom]

Last media report was an interview of the family. They refused to speak of Raven or Janet and Raven's relationship during the interview.

Police refused to give any statement.

The only new news we got was that they were waiting for results from the crime lab.

[golfmom]

Timex, do any other cases come to mind that there has been such a complete blackout on? I can't think of any, and was wondering if you ever remember LE being so tight-lipped.

During the Greta show on the case, she interviewed a reporter, Eric Olson, who said that even his inside sources at LE won't tell him ANYTHING regarding this case.

eta: I should have put in LE won't even tell him anything off the record in this case.

[chicoliving]

Right, but they didnt say it wasnt a random crime...only that they had no indication that it was. Same in Jessica's case, they didnt say it wasnt an abduction, only that they had no indication of such.

If the intent was rape, not theft etc...what would indicate random or non random?
....how entry was gained....not forced usually indicates the victim knew the perp or wasn't "afraid" of the perp.

[JerseyGirl]

I never meant to disagree with you :blowkiss:
because I actually agree that he was desperate to fit in
but, he wasn't satisfied just being a regular ole guy in the club
he wanted to be KING of the club
with the most tricked out limited edition collector's version VXI totally agree. It's the reasons behind that desire that intrigue me. I believe that the reasons behind that are low self-esteem, etc.

And please ... feel free to disagree with me anytime! I seriously don't mind differing opinions at all. :)

[JerseyGirl]

JerseyGirl,

Ive known guys just like that. They weren't really "bad" guys, just guys that for whatever reason cant/wont grow-up.

That said, I certainly wouldnt want to be married to one, as the problems would be never ending.I agree 100% on both points. That's what I meant earlier when I stated that the poor guy probably doesn't even realize how annoying he is. (Poor guy only applies if he isn't a murderer.)

[golfmom]

I totally agree. It's the reasons behind that desire that intrigue me. I believe that the reasons behind that are low self-esteem, etc.

And please ... feel free to disagree with me anytime! I seriously don't mind differing opinions at all. :)

Oh, I know how to disagree with you ... LOL ... remember which way the house faces?

But, seriously my whole take on *Oh Wait I am a Bird*
should be renamed
*Oh Wait I am a Whiney Titty-Baby*

[JerseyGirl]

I sincerely hope he didn't do it and that perhaps this experience, even though it's so horrible, will help him change his ways and be a good example for his son.That's a great point. At this point, it's all about Kaiden. Raven now HAS TO grow up, and take good care of that little boy. He's going to need lots of love, patience, compassion, etc. growing up without his Mommy. Raven's going to need to play both roles as much as possible. He'll need maturity in order to do it, IMO.

[golfmom]

That's a great point. At this point, it's all about Kaiden. Raven now HAS TO grow up, and take good care of that little boy. He's going to need lots of love growing up without his Mommy. Raven's going to need to play both roles as much as possible.

And quit buying himself expensive toys! Hopefully that's stopped!

[Timex]

There are MANY cases in which LE gives no information. Why? Thats anyone's guess. IMO the only way things will change in this case is when the citizens of Durham raise hell. LE told them this wasnt random...said they had nothing to fear...so why no arrest etc? If I were a citizen, I would want answers. They either know who killed her...or they dont. They owe the citizens of Durham that much at least.

[JerseyGirl]

My thought is that "no indication that it was a random murder" would mean no forced entry, nothing stolen, no ransacking ... there are probably many things but I can't think of any more than this right now.

[JerseyGirl]

Police refused to give any statement.I hate to get caught up on semantics but there's a difference between "refusing" to give a statement and "declining" to give a statement. I know that LE often withholds details but do they often let this much time go by with nothing? Why would they in this case - does it imply anything? For example, does LE believe that Raven did it but don't have enough evidence yet? Or do they believe that he didn't but don't want to alarm the community because they have no idea of who they're dealing with? It's been such a long time to hear absolutely nothing. I don't know if there's a pattern of LE behavior in investigations that could be applied here.

[JerseyGirl]

Timex, do any other cases come to mind that there has been such a complete blackout on? I can't think of any, and was wondering if you ever remember LE being so tight-lipped.I'm sorry golfmom ... we're doing it again. I hadn't read this before posting my last post which is essentially the same question! :doh:

[Timex]

I hate to get caught up on semantics but there's a difference between "refusing" to give a statement and "declining" to give a statement. I know that LE often withholds details but do they often let this much time go by with nothing? Why would they in this case - does it imply anything? For example, does LE believe that Raven did it but don't have enough evidence yet? Or do they believe that he didn't but don't want to alarm the community because they have no idea of who they're dealing with? It's been such a long time to hear absolutely nothing. I don't know if there's a pattern of LE behavior in investigations that could be applied here.

This is exactly what Ive been saying. Its going on 2 months, yet NOTHING. In most cases where the act is not random, they are wrapped up fairly quickly. (Peterson case does not apply here, because there were MAJOR differences, one being, no body). Random crimes are harder to solve, and random murders often go unsolved. I forget the actual statistics, but I think I read that over 40% of all murders go unsolved in this country.

[golfmom]

I forget the actual statistics, but I think I read that over 40% of all murders go unsolved in this country.

Whew ... I hope this isn't one of those.

[PrayersForMaura]

Right, but they didnt say it wasnt a random crime...only that they had no indication that it was. Same in Jessica's case, they didnt say it wasnt an abduction, only that they had no indication of such.

If the intent was rape, not theft etc...what would indicate random or non random?
I understood it to mean that there was no forced entry, nothing stolen, nothing out of place; hence not random, but that Janet knew the perpetrator. I may have misunderstood but that's what I deducted from what was written in the news.

[Timex]

I understood it to mean that there was no forced entry, nothing stolen, nothing out of place; hence not random, but that Janet knew the perpetrator. I may have misunderstood but that's what I deducted from what was written in the news.


I agree, and all of those things were what LE to say there was no indictation of abduction in Jessica's case. I guess my point is, things arent always as they appear. Many assumed a family member had to have done something to Jessica, because there was no indication of a stranger being in the house.

[PrayersForMaura]

I agree, and all of those things were what LE to say there was no indictation of abduction in Jessica's case. I guess my point is, things arent always as they appear. Many assumed a family member had to have done something to Jessica, because there was no indication of a stranger being in the house.
what was a tad different in that case is that the body was moved. Jessica was not in the house. And it was a sexual crime. Janet was killed and left to die in her own home, and it was not sexual. Police would release that if there were signs of attempted r*pe ... I don't like to type that word, it bothers me.

[Timex]

what was a tad different in that case is that the body was moved. Jessica was not in the house. And it was a sexual crime. Janet was killed and left to die in her own home, and it was not sexual. Police would release that if there were signs of attempted r*pe ... I don't like to type that word, it bothers me.


ok...but wouldnt a 9 year old being missing from her bed lead one to at least think abduction? LE said over and over again there was no indication of abduction, even though we all know she was indeed abducted.

I dont think Janet was raped...but I cant eliminate the possibility of rape being the motive. Im of the opinion homes can be, and often are, entered and crimes commited with no "indication" of forced entry etc. We see this far too many times to think differently.

[PrayersForMaura]

ok...but wouldnt a 9 year old being missing from her bed lead one to at least think abduction? LE said over and over again there was no indication of abduction, even though we all know she was indeed abducted.

I dont think Janet was raped...but I cant eliminate the possibility of rape being the motive. Im of the opinion homes can be, and often are, entered and crimes commited with no "indication" of forced entry etc. We see this far too many times to think differently.oh i completely agree with you... it was pretty obvious to me that she was abducted and I have no clue why Florida LE kept saying otherwise.
I guess because there was nothing out of place in that case either, no broken windows or doors.
But it wasn't as much a random abduction... he was a neighbor and Jessica probably saw the guy a time or two and the he probably sought her out. Whereas let's say Steve Staynor was taken.... that guy who took him saw him playing ball on the street and liked him but didn't know him... that was more random. But I guess he kind of saught him out too....

I don't know, this case is very strange so far.
You would think LE would release more info.... ay yi yi.

[golfmom]

You would think LE would release more info.... ay yi yi.

Is this a special chant that we can all use to have more focus on this case?

[JerseyGirl]

I agree, and all of those things were what LE to say there was no indictation of abduction in Jessica's case. I guess my point is, things arent always as they appear. Many assumed a family member had to have done something to Jessica, because there was no indication of a stranger being in the house.I was one of the "many". So I know exactly what you mean. That's why (on my good days), I try to give Raven the benefit of the doubt.

BTW, PrayersforMaura, I don't interpret "not random" to mean that Janet knew her attacker, just that she (or the house) were specific targets of the attacker.

[JerseyGirl]

what was a tad different in that case is that the body was moved. Jessica was not in the house. And it was a sexual crime.We didn't realize at the time that the crime was sexual. It wasn't until after she was found that we learned what motivated the crime. Actually, we didn't even know IF it was a crime until it came to its conclusion.

[PrayersForMaura]

Is this a special chant that we can all use to have more focus on this case?
lol :clap:
I am soooooooo frustrated that nothing has seemingly progressed in the investigation of this case other that what all of you sleuthers are finding on the web. What is LE doing??? Scratching their butts?

[PrayersForMaura]

We didn't realize at the time that the crime was sexual. It wasn't until after she was found that we learned what motivated the crime. Actually, we didn't even know IF it was a crime until it came to its conclusion.that's because she wasn't in the house and the body wasn't found.
Janet's body was there and LE probably looked at sexual assault first and foremost. Also, they probably noted what she was wearing and if any clothes were removed or torn from her body. She wouldn't be dressed back up if she was assaulted.

[JerseyGirl]

oh i completely agree with you... it was pretty obvious to me that she was abducted and I have no clue why Florida LE kept saying otherwise.
I guess because there was nothing out of place in that case either, no broken windows or doors.
But it wasn't as much a random abduction... he was a neighbor and Jessica probably saw the guy a time or two and the he probably sought her out.This statement illustrates that even though they say that it isn't "random", it could still have been someone that Janet never knew. Couey wasn't "random" in the sense that he probably picked Jessica out ahead of time. So Janet's murder might not be "random" for the same reason - simply that she was chosen for some reason, with or without knowledge of the perp.

[Timex]

I guess thats my frustration also. I have no doubt that LE most likely considers Raven the number one suspect. What I need to know now is why? Is there real evidence? Or is it simply because there was no "indication" of a random crime?

[JerseyGirl]

that's because she wasn't in the house and the body wasn't found.
Janet's body was there and LE probably looked at sexual assault first and foremost. Also, they probably noted what she was wearing and if any clothes were removed or torn from her body. She wouldn't be dressed back up if she was assaulted.Yes, I agree. But the original question was about why LE calls this not random. Could it be that there was nothing to indicate it as such? Just as there was nothing to indicate that Jessica had been abducted. So whatever led LE to make that statement in Jessica's case didn't have to do with the fact that it was a sex crime because they didn't know that at the time they made the statement. So if we are drawing comparisons based on LE's statements early on in these cases, the nature of the crime was not a factor because the nature of the crime against Jessica wasn't known at that time.

Okay, I'm confusing myself here. I know what I'm trying to say but it probably isn't clear. Oh well. :banghead: :)

[SouthEastSleuth]

Something else that I have always been curious about -

The clothing they took from Raven that evening: if there was blood on the clothing, or not. And, if there was blood, where and how much.

Lord, in trying to think the best of ANYBODY, I hope he was covered in poor Janet's blood, if for no other reason, giving him the benefit of a doubt, that when he found her, he ran to her and held her....

That said, referencing that blasted Michael Peterson case in Durham, AGAIN -

he was literally dripping with Kathleen's blood - all over him. And, he of course said that that was the exact reason: he found Kathleen and was holding her as he called 911, etc.

Those bloody clothes became a HUGE deal at the trial. The defence brought in ol' Henry Lee. He was on the stand spitting ketchup (I kid you not!) at posterboard to demonstrate things, etc. The DA was talking about how there was blood spatter way up the inside of MP's shorts. On and on and on. (SO very tedious at times - blood spatter evidence!)

Anyway, I digress. I would love to know about what, if anything, they found on Raven's clothing... Maybe someday we'll know....

[Timex]

I agree about the clothing...but also feel more than enough time has passed for forensics to determine if there was blood splatter evidence etc. If there was blood splatter, that would be conclusive evidence, and I would have expected an arrest by now.

[JerseyGirl]

And more than enough time might have passed in the Abaroa house that evening that if Raven did do this, he could have disposed of his clothes anywhere. We don't know if the clothes he gave them were the clothes he was really wearing or not.

[Timex]

And more than enough time might have passed in the Abaroa house that evening that if Raven did do this, he could have disposed of his clothes anywhere. We don't know if the clothes he gave them were the clothes he was really wearing or not.

I agree with this also. But we (or I) cant assume he dumped his clothes just because it would make the "evidence" fit the crime.

[SouthEastSleuth]

And more than enough time might have passed in the Abaroa house that evening that if Raven did do this, he could have disposed of his clothes anywhere. We don't know if the clothes he gave them were the clothes he was really wearing or not.
I absolutely agree.

However, would it not be EQUALLY as suspicious if the police arrived, and find Raven absolutely clean and spotless, no blood whatsoever??

I mean what husband would come home, find his wife, with "large amounts of blood" on and around her, and not REACH FOR HER??? To see if she was still alive? Basic human nature: this is YOUR WIFE. The woman with you're in love. The mother of your child. Speculation sure, but, I dare say that MOST husbands would be right there with their wife...touching her, holding her, etc.

[curious1]

ok..Ive been reading through some of the early media articles, and have a question.

In one of original articles, LE made a statement something like "we have nothing that would indicate this is a random crime".

What indicates a random crime?

I just keep thinking back to when Jessica was missing and LE kept saying they could not call it an abduction because there was "nothing to indicate she had been abducted".
See that is what bothers me about focusing on that statement from LE. We should look at ALL possibilities, non random AND random. How do we know what guidlines this group is using to determine random or not. And I always thought the abduction statment in Jessica's case was dumb.

[curious1]

....how entry was gained....not forced usually indicates the victim knew the perp or wasn't "afraid" of the perp.
Or didn't lock their doors.:twocents:

[Timex]

See that is what bothers me about focusing on that statement from LE. We should look at ALL possibilities, non random AND random. How do we know what guidlines this group is using to determine random or not. And I always thought the abduction statment in Jessica's case was dumb.

This is the point Ive been making. Yes, I think Raven is a valid suspect...but to only focus on him is a mistake IMO...given how very little we actually know about this case. The problem is..he is the only one we can focus on, as we know nothing else about who may or may not have had contact with Janet.

[JerseyGirl]

However, would it not be EQUALLY as suspicious if the police arrived, and find Raven absolutely clean and spotless, no blood whatsoever??I don't know about this. I think it would completely depend on the person involved. I can't even imagine what a scene like this would look like in real life, with your real loved one's blood all over the place. I just can't imagine. It could be that he didn't want to touch her and risk hurting her more or it could be that it freaked him out so badly that he ran downstairs. I honestly don't know if I could cradle my husband's dead or dying bloody body while waiting for LE to arrive. I think that it would freak me out too much.

[SouthEastSleuth]

I don't know about this. I think it would completely depend on the person involved. I can't even imagine what a scene like this would look like in real life, with your real loved one's blood all over the place. I just can't imagine. It could be that he didn't want to touch her and risk hurting her more or it could be that it freaked him out so badly that he ran downstairs. I honestly don't know if I could cradle my husband's dead or dying bloody body while waiting for LE to arrive. I think that it would freak me out too much.
I can definitely see your point Jersey. And as you say, it might just depend on the person, etc. I know one thing for absolute CERTAIN though, I walked in and saw that, I would at LEAST have to check to see if the person was still alive or not...I know I would. But, you're 100% right, it all depends on the person...

[curious1]

This is the point Ive been making. Yes, I think Raven is a valid suspect...but to only focus on him is a mistake IMO...given how very little we actually know about this case. The problem is..he is the only one we can focus on, as we know nothing else about who may or may not have had contact with Janet.
I know! Ugh! How frustrating! Does anyone want to count how many times this :banghead: has been used in these 5 threads? :crazy:

[lauriej]

I absolutely agree.

However, would it not be EQUALLY as suspicious if the police arrived, and find Raven absolutely clean and spotless, no blood whatsoever??

I mean what husband would come home, find his wife, with "large amounts of blood" on and around her, and not REACH FOR HER??? To see if she was still alive? Basic human nature: this is YOUR WIFE. The woman with you're in love. The mother of your child. Speculation sure, but, I dare say that MOST husbands would be right there with their wife...touching her, holding her, etc.
............i agree on that......an early media report stated that when LE arrived the husband told them his wife was upstairs hurt...

...hurt ??? if he truly believed at that point that she was hurt, ( and not dead), i would definitely expect him to be holding her....and therefore covered in blood...

[JerseyGirl]

............i agree on that......an early media report stated that when LE arrived the husband told them his wife was upstairs hurt...

...hurt ??? if he truly believed at that point that she was hurt, ( and not dead), i would definitely expect him to be holding her....and therefore covered in blood...That's a good point ... if I believed my spouse to be hurt and not dead, I would definitely be in the room with him, talking to him until paramedics arrived. It's only if I thought he was dead that I'd probably run screaming.

Could it be that Raven was up and down the steps waiting on LE's arrival? Maybe told Janet to hold on, they'll be here any minute, and then run down to check the driveway? Maybe he didn't get too close because he was scared but he could have been in the doorway talking to her?

[Timex]

"Nothing in the investigation so far indicates that the homicide was a random act," Durham Police Department spokeswoman Kammie Michael said in a statement

No charges have been filed in the case, and investigators are still looking into several possibilities, Michael said.


So what are the "several possibilities"?

[juliagoulia]

That's a good point ... if I believed my spouse to be hurt and not dead, I would definitely be in the room with him, talking to him until paramedics arrived. It's only if I thought he was dead that I'd probably run screaming.

Could it be that Raven was up and down the steps waiting on LE's arrival? Maybe told Janet to hold on, they'll be here any minute, and then run down to check the driveway? Maybe he didn't get too close because he was scared but he could have been in the doorway talking to her?
And there is still that UNCONFIRMED report that 911 was not his first call. Rather he called one of Janet's teammates first.

[Timex]

And there is still that UNCONFIRMED report that 911 was not his first call. Rather he called one of Janet's teammates first.


Where is this report? And why would he call them if the co-workers were already at the house when he got there?

[golfmom]

Where is this report? And why would he call them if the co-workers were already at the house when he got there?

My guess is he did call 9-1-1 based on what was released in the request for the search warrant. I think the co-workers arrived after he did ... maybe after the police arrived.

[juliagoulia]

I was referring to post #459 on this link
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=666660&highlight=911#post666660

but had forgotten it was from a PM.

[golfmom]

I was referring to post #459 on this link
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=666660&highlight=911#post666660

but had forgotten it was from a PM.

Julia, I was told that he called people after the police left. Never before. But, I know if something horrible happened to me, like what happened in that house, I'd be making some calls to friends and family too.

But, if he made a call before he called 9-1-1 ... well ....

[misterallgood]

Got My Mojo Back, and Notes From All Over... (http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/archives/000775.html)

A new 'blog entry -- I touch on the Abaroa case as well as several others, like the Groene murders & abduction in Idaho.

I post this here because in an earlier discussion thread others made note of the video "scoop" by Durham station WTVD from June 3rd, their highlighting of the longer Abaroa Xmas video -- you know, the one that I had a link to on The Dark Side around May 20th?

I addressed that in the segment of my blog entry about Janet's murder.

Mr. A.

[golfmom]

:laugh: I'll stay on this one till the man has a cellmate who thinks he looks purty in orange.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[ewwwinteresting]

"Nothing in the investigation so far indicates that the homicide was a random act," Durham Police Department spokeswoman Kammie Michael said in a statement

No charges have been filed in the case, and investigators are still looking into several possibilities, Michael said.


So what are the "several possibilities"?
This statement was as of June 3, 2005:
"The 25-year-old mother was found stabbed to death inside her Ferrand Drive home on April 26. Investigators have not revealed any suspects. They say it was not a random crime and the public is not in any danger."

It seems that nobody wants to get off the merry go round. The police have stated numerous times IT IS NOT A RANDOM CRIME! The crime was murder. The murder was not random. The public is not in danger, which means they must know who did it and where that person is...otherwise we would be in danger if a murderer is on the run!

I guess I have to say imo but it appears to be the opinion of LE also.

[Timex]

This statement was as of June 3, 2005:
"The 25-year-old mother was found stabbed to death inside her Ferrand Drive home on April 26. Investigators have not revealed any suspects. They say it was not a random crime and the public is not in any danger."

It seems that nobody wants to get off the merry go round. The police have stated numerous times IT IS NOT A RANDOM CRIME! The crime was murder. The murder was not random. The public is not in danger, which means they must know who did it and where that person is...otherwise we would be in danger if a murderer is on the run!

I guess I have to say imo but it appears to be the opinion of LE also.

Yes, and Jessica was not abducted from her home either, right? Since LE said they had no signs of an abduction.

The same article also says they are investigating SEVERAL possibilities, yet no one seems to want to mention that part.

[ewwwinteresting]

The same article also says they are investigating SEVERAL possibilities, yet no one seems to want to mention that part.
Sorry, I don't see that statement in the June 3, 2005 article.

[golfmom]

Yes, and Jessica was not abducted from her home either, right? Since LE said they had no signs of an abduction.

The same article also says they are investigating SEVERAL possibilities, yet no one seems to want to mention that part.

I am at the point now that I believe Raven Abaroa murdered Janet. And previously we have had many discussions regarding the several possibilities. I've gone around in circles so many times on this case that I have really caught my tail.

I never jumped on accusing Jessica's family, I never jumped on accusing the runaway bride's fiance, I haven't jumped on the Fox case.

I'm jumping here ... I feel I have enough to satisfy myself to make that leap. If you're not, I'm good with that. I am always open to discussing other ideas.

[Timex]

Timex, I hope that we've been able to help you by answering your questions today. I'm sorry, if it's a problem, but ... yes, I am at the point now that I believe Raven Abaroa murdered Janet. And previously we have had many discussions regarding the several possibilities. I've gone around in circles so many times on this case that I have really caught my tail.

I never jumped on accusing Jessica's family, I never jumped on accusing the runaway bride's fiance, I haven't jumped on the Fox case.

I'm jumping here ... I feel I have enough to satisfy myself to make that leap. If you're not, I'm good with that. I am always open to discussing other ideas.


Yes, but you have information the rest of us arent privy too, so perhaps we cant make that leap. I can olny go by what Law Enforcement has said...and that is they are following several different theories. IMO, I would be remiss just to accept anothers opinion without bothering to check things out for myself. I have no problem with you thinking Raven did this. That of course, is your right. However, it is also my opinion that we simply do not have enough information to know just who else knew Janet...who else may have had an interest in Janet...who else LE may have their eyes on. I am not ready to say there is absolutley no other possible suspect other than Raven. Perhaps that time will come, but right now...I just dont know enough to say that every other person in Durham has been eliminated as a suspect.

[golfmom]

Perhaps that time will come, but right now...I just dont know enough to say that every other person in Durham has been eliminated as a suspect.

kewl.

I just get worried because I feel like I'm walking a tight-rope. I would be more than willing to share the other information, but I've been told that it is against board policy. I would have been better off doing the whole I know something you don't know, rather than freely sharing the information I've been given, and I now find myself in a pickle here.

[Timex]

kewl.

I just get worried because I feel like I'm walking a tight-rope. I would be more than willing to share the other information, but I've been told that it is against board policy. I would have been better off doing the whole I know something you don't know, rather than freely sharing the information I've been given, and I now find myself in a pickle here.


Quite honestly, unless it came from LE, it would have no impact on my thoughts.

[ewwwinteresting]

I can olny go by what Law Enforcement has said...and that is they are following several different theories.
Timex, can you tell me what date the reporter was quoting LE with that statement? I can only find that statement in the first days of reporting and the last two news reports have not said that. Am I missing something?

[ewwwinteresting]

kewl.

I just get worried because I feel like I'm walking a tight-rope. I would be more than willing to share the other information, but I've been told that it is against board policy. I would have been better off doing the whole I know something you don't know, rather than freely sharing the information I've been given, and I now find myself in a pickle here.
Quite honestly GM, I've enjoyed hearing your unconfirmed confidential information. It has given us new ideas and new places to search and seek.

[JerseyGirl]

kewl.

I just get worried because I feel like I'm walking a tight-rope. I would be more than willing to share the other information, but I've been told that it is against board policy. I would have been better off doing the whole I know something you don't know, rather than freely sharing the information I've been given, and I now find myself in a pickle here.Well, it was posted that rumor and gossip are allowed. So as long as you say that "rumor has it ..." or "according to some gossip around Durham ..." I think that the issue was just that we can't post for other people if they pm us. As long as we say that what we are stating is not fact, and is just based on the buzz, then that's okay, correct?

[golfmom]

Quite honestly, unless it came from LE, it would have no impact on my thoughts.

Timex, I'm just thinking differently here. :cool:

[ewwwinteresting]

Doesn't anybody else think it's curious that Raven was supposedly out playing soccer the night his wife was murdered, instead of at least looking for a job or jobs???? I mean, there are hamburger joints opened, Walmart or other department stores opened. You would think he would be working two or three jobs trying to support his family and the "poor financial decisions" he has made. Was this guys ego so big, he couldn't suck it up and do whatever it takes (legally) to support his family?

[ewwwinteresting]

Vehicross Forum Post:
NC_VX
03/07/2005, 05:26 PM
AlaskaVX, I've always enjoyed your posts and pictures... We've never met, but my heart goes out to you.

I was feeling really down when I lost my job and the circumstances in which I lost it made it worse. While I feel my work situation starting to improve, no matter what I will always be greatful for the 3 weeks I went without a job. During that time I finally had a chance to get to know my then 3 month old son. Now I get countless smiles from him and he always wants his daddy and gives me the biggest laughs of anyone. That was a blessing in disguise that I would have never imagined.

Anyway, good luck on the job hunt and keep up the spirits! __________________
-The Rave-
North Carolina


Nevermind, I guess he did have a job and time to play soccer.

[ewwwinteresting]

R.I.P Janet.. I only pray to my heavenly father that the person or people responsible for this selfish crime be punished to the FULL extent of the law.... Raven I have no doubt that your reading this. I have seen your reaction at the memorial and I have looked you in your eyes while giving you my condolences while having to bite my lip from saying what I feel. I can see thru your eyes into your soul. May God have mercy on your soul.
:( :(

Welcome family_friend and as previously stated I hope there has been nothing posted here to hurt Janet's friends and family. I think I can speak for all of us here, we want the same as you, for the person or persons to be held accountable for this horrific crime and that justice will prevail for Janet. By your actions, you must be a true friend to Janet and her family. May God comfort you to know that Janet is resting in peace.

[Timex]

My point is...I could have family and or friends from either side telling me things. It would not make them accurate, it would not be evidence.

Obviously, Janets family feels Raven killed her.

Ravens family feels he didnt.

We see the same thing in the Fox case. Kevins family stands solidly behind him...some are members of this forum. I dont base my opinions on that case on what his family has to say...nor do I base it on what media is saying. I am waiting to hear just what real evidence there is to link him to the crime. I use the same standards on any case presented here at WS.

Im not going to take sides in a family dispute. All of my opinions and observations will come from unbiased sources. That is the only way I can maintain any type of fairness on these boards.

[hoppyfrog]

Something else that I have always been curious about -

The clothing they took from Raven that evening: if there was blood on the clothing, or not. And, if there was blood, where and how much.

Lord, in trying to think the best of ANYBODY, I hope he was covered in poor Janet's blood, if for no other reason, giving him the benefit of a doubt, that when he found her, he ran to her and held her....

That said, referencing that blasted Michael Peterson case in Durham, AGAIN -

he was literally dripping with Kathleen's blood - all over him. And, he of course said that that was the exact reason: he found Kathleen and was holding her as he called 911, etc.

Those bloody clothes became a HUGE deal at the trial. The defence brought in ol' Henry Lee. He was on the stand spitting ketchup (I kid you not!) at posterboard to demonstrate things, etc. The DA was talking about how there was blood spatter way up the inside of MP's shorts. On and on and on. (SO very tedious at times - blood spatter evidence!)

Anyway, I digress. I would love to know about what, if anything, they found on Raven's clothing... Maybe someday we'll know....
Take a look at NC Banker's post. It's #18 on this page:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24268&page=1

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

Obviously, Janets family feels Raven killed her.
I must have missed something. Can you point me to some info/posts/threads about this?

Thanks.

Hoppy

[Timex]

I must have missed something. Can you point me to some info/posts/threads about this?

Thanks.

Hoppy


No I cannot...but since we know information was being sent via PM to some folks by friends and family of Janet...and those folks are convinced of his guilt, I would draw the conclusion of her friends and family feeling he is indeed guilty.

[golfmom]

I must have missed something. Can you point me to some info/posts/threads about this?

Thanks.

Hoppy

Hoppy I can tell you this, everything that I've revealed on the boards ... nothing has come from a family member. I have never been in contact with a immediate or extended family member. So, I don't know what they think or feel. I have on the other hand been contacted by Janet's friends and some of her co-workers and I've done my best to share everything that I've received.

[PrayersForMaura]

I just want to let everyone know that I sent Timex a pm to update a few of the posts on our timeline... I can no longer edit those posts because there's a time after which users can no longer edit a post themselves; hence, a moderator has to do this.

I have been swamped and am sorry I have not been able to send updates sooner.

I am still trying to figure out when they moved and where (Janet and Raven).
After Timex makes the updates I sent, if anyone knows of any other changes, can you send them to me? I will compile all changes and then send to Timex so that she doesn't get bombarded with changes and pm's. I hope this is acceptable to everyone and that you all have a great night! ;)

[Jenifred]

I've been gone all day long and it's taken me an hour to catch up on just today! You guys have been some busy bees!

Mr. AG--Nice little blog. I absolutely loved the last line!!

I'll stay on this one till the man has a cellmate who thinks he looks purty in orange.

That's great!!!

[golfmom]

I just want to let everyone know that I sent Timex a pm to update a few of the posts on our timeline... I can no longer edit those posts because there's a time after which users can no longer edit a post themselves; hence, a moderator has to do this.

I have been swamped and am sorry I have not been able to send updates sooner.

I am still trying to figure out when they moved and where (Janet and Raven).
After Timex makes the updates I sent, if anyone knows of any other changes, can you send them to me? I will compile all changes and then send to Timex so that she doesn't get bombarded with changes and pm's. I hope this is acceptable to everyone and that you all have a great night! ;)

Unfortunately honey we've been all over the board and our general discussions have moved into other threads. Your pretty, organized board got messed up today! :blowkiss: Without you chaos and madness reigned!

[PrayersForMaura]

Unfortunately honey we've been all over the board and our general discussions have moved into other threads. Your pretty, organized board got messed up today! :blowkiss: Without you chaos and madness reigned!LOL ... aww, you guys are handling it all fine!!
I just got promoted at work and wound up falling in love with my boyfriend all within the same long, whirl-wind of a week; so my time here has been sporatical and not long :(
I am trying to catch up fast and furiously.
You guys are getting some good info, especially with the VX posts!!!

[Timex]

I should clarify how I have came to the conclusion of Janet's family feeling Raven is guilty.

As I mentioned, some I assumed because of the behind the scenes postings.

Then there was a single poster that claimed to know the family, and told us how they were NOT looking at Raven as the perp, but just waiting for LE to do their job.

When that poster made the claim, the family sent word that the information was not at all from them. They made it clear this person was not being truthfull. At least that is the way I interpreted the response from the family, since it was the one and only post the family has personally responded to.
The only time the family has voiced an opinion on anything that has been posted was when it was a favorable opinion of Raven. That appears to have upset them, so I can only draw a conclusion that they do not view him in a favorable light.

If I misinterpreted the meaning behind their response, which I could have, I would sincerely like to know.

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppy I can tell you this, everything that I've revealed on the boards ... nothing has come from a family member. I have never been in contact with a immediate or extended family member. So, I don't know what they think or feel. I have on the other hand been contacted by Janet's friends and some of her co-workers and I've done my best to share everything that I've received.
Thanks.

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

I should clarify how I have came to the conclusion of Janet's family feeling Raven is guilty.

As I mentioned, some I assumed because of the behind the scenes postings.

Then there was a single poster that claimed to know the family, and told us how they were NOT looking at Raven as the perp, but just waiting for LE to do their job.

When that poster made the claim, the family sent word that the information was not at all from them. They made it clear this person was not being truthfull. At least that is the way I interpreted the response from the family, since it was the one and only post the family has personally responded to.
The only time the family has voiced an opinion on anything that has been posted was when it was a favorable opinion of Raven. That appears to have upset them, so I can only draw a conclusion that they do not view him in a favorable light.

If I misinterpreted the meaning behind their response, which I could have, I would sincerely like to know.
Thanks for clarifying your thought process. It helps a lot, since I'm not a mind reader.:)

It's interesting that you interpreted the response from the family that way. I simply interpreted it as a statement intended to clarify *who* was speaking, not that they agreed or disagreed with the content of that poster's messages. I'll have to go back and read it again.

Hoppy

[Timex]

It sounded angry to me. And again, because of all the things that have been mentioned and posted here...only ONE has actually brought the family to respond. And then they responded to someone that hosts an "anti-Raven" site. Now if they didnt feel raven was involved, why would their point of contact be someone that is so obviously convinced of Ravens guilt?

[ewwwinteresting]

It sounded angry to me. And again, because of all the things that have been mentioned and posted here...only ONE has actually brought the family to respond. And then they responded to someone that hosts an "anti-Raven" site. Now if they didnt feel raven was involved, why would their point of contact be someone that is so obviously convinced of Ravens guilt?
My thought process was that a "certain" poster was saying things like, Janet's family has forgiven who has done this to their daughter and part of forgiving is forgetting and moving on. I interpreted their message to say, don't you dare tell me how I'm feeling (which I don't blame them). Maybe I misinterpreted the post, but that is what I got out of it.

[Timex]

My thought process was that a "certain" poster was saying things like, Janet's family has forgiven who has done this to their daughter and part of forgiving is forgetting and moving on. I interpreted their message to say, don't you dare tell me how I'm feeling (which I don't blame them). Maybe I misinterpreted the post, but that is what I got out of it.


So who would you chose to speak for you if you didnt feel your SIL was guilty? Someone that obvioulsy DOES feel he guilty? The choice of spokeperson reveals their feelings IMO.

[ewwwinteresting]

So who would you chose to speak for you if you didnt feel your SIL was guilty? Someone that obvioulsy DOES feel he guilty? The choice of spokeperson reveals their feelings IMO.I, personally, wouldn't pick anybody to speak for me.....I would speak for myself.

However, when I was ranting and raving several weeks ago about the families in this case being silent, I was "gently" :slap: informed by numerous posters that people grieve differently and maybe Janet's family is grieving in silence. If they read the posts of someone telling strangers how they are grieving and it was not correct, and that they haven't forgiven the perp who did this awful thing to their daughter, I would tell them to shut up too!

I guess my thinking is that if they thought Raven killed Janet, why would they let him stay with another one of their daughters.....:eek: and I would have thought they wouldn't have remained silent in their interview. They specifically stated they would not discuss Raven, his relationship with their daughter and the murder case.
Again, I may be waaaay off base, just my thoughts at this moment. Maybe someone in Janet's family can set me straight....one way or the other on this issue?

[Timex]

I guess I see it this way....

Just as I wouldnt have expetced the peterson's to ask loretta to speak for them because she obviously felt scott was guilty, and they did not...I wouldnt expect this family to chose MrAllGood to speak for them if they didnt feel he is guilty.

[Rooster]

My thought process was that a "certain" poster was saying things like, Janet's family has forgiven who has done this to their daughter and part of forgiving is forgetting and moving on. I interpreted their message to say, don't you dare tell me how I'm feeling (which I don't blame them). Maybe I misinterpreted the post, but that is what I got out of it.
That's how I read it too.

[cappuccina]

...EI, your succint explanation got to the heart of what this person was trying to say...

[Timex]

Ok, then I stand corrected...Janets family does NOT feel Raven is guilty, but her friends do.

[ewwwinteresting]

:laugh: Ok, then I stand corrected...Janets family does NOT feel Raven is guilty, but her friends do.
That, we could be on the same page with! :)

[anneshirley]

Take a look at NC Banker's post. It's #18 on this page:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24268&page=1

Hoppy
I apologize if this sounds graphic...but I think that it is worth note when we discuss if there was blood on Raven's clothes (blood that could implicate him in the murder) There really isn't evidence to confirm this at all...at this point, it is MERE SPECULATION...but I spoke with a LE around where I live and I asked him if there generally is a lot of blood if someone is stabbed in t
he chest (that is, assuming that the UNCONFIRMED reports of how Janet died are true). He said that really there wouldn't be a lot of blood at all-on the perp, that is.
According to this LE, until the lungs fill up with blood, there really wouldn't be a lot of blood coming out of the body. The victims clothes would absorb a lot of it and unless there was a lot of slashing or cutting, there wouldn't be a lot of blood splatter.
Again, MERE SPECULATION...and some interesting info I found out about stab wounds. (again, I apologize for the description. I, in no way, intend it disrespectfully!)

[Timex]

I apologize if this sounds graphic...but I think that it is worth note when we discuss if there was blood on Raven's clothes (blood that could implicate him in the murder) There really isn't evidence to confirm this at all...at this point, it is MERE SPECULATION...but I spoke with a LE around where I live and I asked him if there generally is a lot of blood if someone is stabbed in t
he chest (that is, assuming that the UNCONFIRMED reports of how Janet died are true). He said that really there wouldn't be a lot of blood at all-on the perp, that is.
According to this LE, until the lungs fill up with blood, there really wouldn't be a lot of blood coming out of the body. The victims clothes would absorb a lot of it and unless there was a lot of slashing or cutting, there wouldn't be a lot of blood splatter.
Again, MERE SPECULATION...and some interesting info I found out about stab wounds. (again, I apologize for the description. I, in no way, intend it disrespectfully!)

But then how would we explain the blood on the walls etc? I assumed it was flyback.

[ewwwinteresting]

I apologize if this sounds graphic...but I think that it is worth note when we discuss if there was blood on Raven's clothes (blood that could implicate him in the murder) There really isn't evidence to confirm this at all...at this point, it is MERE SPECULATION...but I spoke with a LE around where I live and I asked him if there generally is a lot of blood if someone is stabbed in t
he chest (that is, assuming that the UNCONFIRMED reports of how Janet died are true). He said that really there wouldn't be a lot of blood at all-on the perp, that is.
According to this LE, until the lungs fill up with blood, there really wouldn't be a lot of blood coming out of the body. The victims clothes would absorb a lot of it and unless there was a lot of slashing or cutting, there wouldn't be a lot of blood splatter.
Again, MERE SPECULATION...and some interesting info I found out about stab wounds. (again, I apologize for the description. I, in no way, intend it disrespectfully!)
It's been stated by LE that there were large amounts of blood on the wall and floor?

[cappuccina]

...somewhere that there was blood on the walls, etc...

[ewwwinteresting]

But then how would we explain the blood on the walls etc? I assumed it was flyback.
Yeah Timex.....thinking alike!

[ewwwinteresting]

...somewhere that there was blood on the walls, etc...
Yeah Cappuccina, thinking alike!

[anneshirley]

But then how would we explain the blood on the walls etc? I assumed it was flyback.
Excellent question. If she were stabbed multiple times, this could explain it. OR, (again, this is based on the UNCONFIRMED reports about how many times and where she was stabbed) could some of the blood come from Janet's hand grasping for things?...or Janet trying to get help? or from a murderer who when he took the knife out (that would cause some blood exchange, perhaps?)
(to be honest, I hate how graphic this sounds. I knew Janet and to think of how she died makes me sick. I just hope that whoever did this to her will receive the punishment he/she deserves).
I don't know.

[newkid]

I really think a lot of that would depend on what anatomically was damaged with each stab wound. If an artery were hit, there would definitely be large sprays of blood. The scenerio described by your LE friend would make sense to me if a primary wound were in the heart and lung.

[ewwwinteresting]

(to be honest, I hate how graphic this sounds. I knew Janet and to think of how she died makes me sick. I just hope that whoever did this to her will receive the punishment he/she deserves).
I don't know.
You are right, it just makes your heart ache knowing this is how she died, and her knowing her precious son was just in the other room. I can't even imagine how it is for those of you who knew Janet.:(

[anneshirley]

I really think a lot of that would depend on what anatomically was damaged with each stab wound. If an artery were hit, there would definitely be large sprays of blood. The scenerio described by your LE friend would make sense to me if a primary wound were in the heart and lung. True...and to be honest, I mainly asked him what would happen if someone were stabbed IN THE CHEST. (there have been UNCONFIRMED reports that she might have been stabbed in the chest).
I wouldn't doubt it if those large quantities of blood came from the struggle of being stabbed. imo

[newkid]

True...and to be honest, I mainly asked him what would happen if someone were stabbed IN THE CHEST. (there have been UNCONFIRMED reports that she might have been stabbed in the chest).
I wouldn't doubt it if those large quantities of blood came from the struggle of being stabbed. imo
Looking back at your initial post on this, I see that now. I didn't read it carefully the first time:doh: .

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. I can't imagine how tough this must be to discuss.

[ewwwinteresting]

True...and to be honest, I mainly asked him what would happen if someone were stabbed IN THE CHEST. (there have been UNCONFIRMED reports that she might have been stabbed in the chest).
I wouldn't doubt it if those large quantities of blood came from the struggle of being stabbed. imo
I thought it was confirmed that she was stabbed in the chest? What is unconfirmed is how many times she was stabbed. I guess I'll have to go look this up if no one else remembers this.

[juliagoulia]

I thought it was confirmed that she was stabbed in the chest? What is unconfirmed is how many times she was stabbed. I guess I'll have to go look this up if no one else remembers this.
The search warrant indicated she was stabbed in the chest:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=654777&highlight=chest#post654777

The number of blows and other locations have not been confirmed.

[newkid]

I thought it was confirmed that she was stabbed in the chest? What is unconfirmed is how many times she was stabbed. I guess I'll have to go look this up if no one else remembers this.
Posted under the Crime Scene Information

Information from the search warrant:

Search warrant issued: 4/27/05 3:15 a.m.
Search warrant executed: 4/27/05 5:45 a.m.

Application for search warrant:
On April 26, 2005 at 10:58 p.m. uniform patrol officers responded to 2606 Ferrand Drive in reference to a gun shot wound. At 11:50 p.m. I, WL Early, arrived at the above location. At 11:55pm I spoke with Off. Jason Williams on car #221, who advised that he had received the call to this location in reference to a gun shot wound. Off. Williams advised this investigator that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that his wife was upstairs,, and that she was hurt. Off. Williams entered the residence, and observed a white female in a upstairs bedroom, laying on her back, with what appeared to be a stab wound to her chest.
On April 27, 2005 at 12:13 a.m. I, Inv. Early entered the residence and I observed in a upstairs bedroom, the body of a white female laying on her back, with what appeared to be a stab wound to her chest. There was a large amount of blood near the body, there was stains on the walls of the bedroom, and there was blood stains near the side door of the residence, located on the South side.
At approximately 12:25am, I departed the residence.
Sounds like there was a wound in the chest, but maybe it wasn't the fatal wound?

[newkid]

The search warrant indicated she was stabbed in the chest:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=654777&highlight=chest#post654777

The number of blows and other locations have not been confirmed.
Oops, you're quicker than I was.

[ewwwinteresting]

The search warrant indicated she was stabbed in the chest:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=654777&highlight=chest#post654777

The number of blows and other locations have not been confirmed.
Thanks Juliagoulia and NewKid from saving me from researching. I feel like I've read all of this so many times, I should have it memorized!

[lauriej]

....nothing too news-worthy...but i remember we were all discussing the shoes mr.A. took the pics of on the house veranda/porch...

...this post of raven's merely confirms his shoe size...

...( a week or so ago, a search was easy to confirm..... info already posted...NOW.....my god.....leave here for the afternoon and come back to an hour of reading...........)

...it's quite wonderful....i'd hate for janet to become a cold case.....

...and on that note........mr.A'....blog update:..............."raven was using his mother's address as well in the embezzlement"......!!!!!!!........wow! that was the last entry i reead as i left earlier today............( and i thought i'd missed something along the way...)

...for him to be using her as an accomplice in jan.2005, things had to have been going very well between them in the last few months at the very least.....

...as someone pointed out much earlier.....( TOL i believe.......)
payments:....the ducati....the acura....the jeep...the VX... the dodge durango
..not to mention a persons NORMAL monthly expenses....

...raven would have had to be making an amazing amout of $$$'s to keep afloat each month....( on vehicle payments alone!)

...anyone else speculate that the "mere $9K" embezzled from eurosport wasn't the only shady dealings he may have been involved in?"

03/21/2004, 01:57 PM
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/images/avatars/vx_white.gif (http://www.vehicross.info/forums/member.php?u=510)NC_VX (http://www.vehicross.info/forums/member.php?u=510) http://www.vehicross.info/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_30867", true);
Super VXer
99, Ironman VX, 1455
Chapel Hill, NC US
Member Since: Jun 2003
Posts: 200
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gif


Yeah, make sure they get it too perfection.....

Sorry about the bad luck. Funny thing, I've accidently hit the brake and accelerator a dozen times and I don't have aftermarket pedals. The problem is the two are just so close together. I wear a size 10 shoe, wonder what the mechanic wears, and if he had steel toe work boots on it oculd have been even harder to see under there....

Good News is, it was at your dealer, not at some shop who would really have a problem repairing it...

Have Fun Skiing and Good Luck!
__________________
-The Rave-
North Carolina

[ewwwinteresting]

See what happens if you leave... :) A couple of little corrections since you probably haven't read everything here:

....nothing too news-worthy...but i remember we were all discussing the shoes mr.A. took the pics of on the house veranda/porch...

NCBanker was the actual one to take pictures of the shoes and house and post them here.

...and on that note........mr.A'....blog update:..............."raven was using his mother's address as well in the embezzlement"......!!!!!!!........wow! that was the last entry i reead as i left earlier today............( and i thought i'd missed something along the way...)

...for him to be using her as an accomplice in jan.2005, things had to have been going very well between them in the last few months at the very least.....

At this point, Mr. A. stated we don't know for sure if Raven's mother was aware that she was being used. Of course, we can speculate....

...as someone pointed out much earlier.....( TOL i believe.......)
payments:....the ducati....the acura....the jeep...the VX... the dodge durango
..not to mention a persons NORMAL monthly expenses....

...raven would have had to be making an amazing amout of $$$'s to keep afloat each month....( on vehicle payments alone!)

...anyone else speculate that the "mere $9K" embezzled from eurosport wasn't the only shady dealings he may have been involved in?"

Exactly........he's had these toys for years, why pick 2004 to embezzle money (when both of them had pretty good jobs)?

[misterallgood]

It sounded angry to me. And again, because of all the things that have been mentioned and posted here...only ONE has actually brought the family to respond. And then they responded to someone that hosts an "anti-Raven" site. Now if they didnt feel raven was involved, why would their point of contact be someone that is so obviously convinced of Ravens guilt?
Timex, I do not run an "Anti-Raven" site, and I do not appreciate the characterization.

I have written 168 entries in my weblog. Of those, 159 do not have anything to do with this case.

I am on the victims side and make no bones about it -- the responses I receive from families makes it worthwhile. Families like Jenn Corbin's -- the Barbers -- like Leslie Beebe's family, Audrey Herron's webmaster, Adrianne Reynolds' family and friends... these are the people who are hurting, and sometimes if they don't have the voice I have apparently provided some of them with a feeling that they do -- at least until they gain their own. I've written about all those cases, but my site is no more an "anti-Raven" site than it is an "anti-Bart Corbin," or "anti-Sarah Kolb" site.

No, I don't hide my suspicion of Raven -- but I always admit that police have neither fingered him nor ruled him out. My suspicion is based on distinct patterns of behavior as evidenced by his numerous available webpages and the circumstances surrounding the death of his wife. He systematically eliminated Janet from his online representations of himself. He left her. The vast majority of his online writing is solely concerned with Raven -- not his family, not his buds, not his wife. He describes himself as aggressive; numerous people who have written me or made a comment on my site agree -- too many from too many different IP numbers for it to be a myth. He is obsessed with the material and the with status and appearances. He is accused of one crime already. No, none of that says he killed his wife in and of itself. The overall portrait he presents to my eyes though is familiar, and taken with the law enforcement admission that the crime was not random I can't help but maintain a focus on him as the most obvious person who would make it a point to kill Janet.

That said, my most important point is this; I ask you respectfully to not demean or minimize something that is a labor of love and time for me, which is what your comment about my 'blog being "anti-Raven" did. I started to enumerate the various crimes I've covered in the blog as a whole and realized my post would be too long; there are too many. I don't believe I'd have over 1,000 readers a day and have a top-250 ranked weblog internet-wide if all I did was write things that were "anti-Raven." One unfortunate aspect of this case is it's overall lack of press coverage -- whether he likes it or not, very few people still know who Mr. Abaroa is -- an "anti-Raven" blog would not bring many readers my way.

I may not be the most fair-minded poster for your taste, but I do try my best to obey the TOS and do my best to not post at all if I think I might be in violation. It took me quite some time tonight to figure out the best way to tell you that I was offended, and tell you why. I contemplated not participating all together, but wise words from someone convinced me that would be defeating my purpose in starting the first thread that ended up being this group of threads and committed posters.

I do understand your aim is fairness, Timex. That makes total sense to me. It's necessary on an internet message board too, as these are legendary for the pile-on mentality that can develop. But, you may have unintentionally mis-characterized the nature of my blog, and I wasn't going to be comfortable participating here until I said something.

[PrayersForMaura]

So who would you chose to speak for you if you didnt feel your SIL was guilty? Someone that obvioulsy DOES feel he guilty? The choice of spokeperson reveals their feelings IMO.
but i thought we can't speak for each other?? If one poster such as golf mom or I choose to post what someone told us in a pm, how is that different from some poster who was "claiming" that they know Janet's family and was speaking for them?

If your daugher was murdered, would you want anyone speaking for you telling what you thought and how you felt without your permission? I have to say that i wouldn't.

[golfmom]

I too feel as if I’ve been offended and targeted unfairly. I have posted enormous amounts on alternative theories and possibly exculpatory information. And the insinuation that I made my decision solely on supposed inside information is upsetting to me. I took my time and have invested over 100 hours. If you don’t like my conclusion fine, but all that supposed insider stuff is right here on the boards. If you don’t want to consider that information as reliable, of course that is your right. But to ridicule or dismiss me because I do is not.

I feel now as if the only thing I’m legitimately able to sleuth now is news. Any theory, idea or information will be dismissed or belittled. Interesting, I am now in the position of the people I tried to help and am becoming increasingly afraid to post.

[JerseyGirl]

But then how would we explain the blood on the walls etc? I assumed it was flyback.That's got me thinking. If it was flyback, could we really only be looking at 3 stab wounds, (hand, shoulder, chest)? If the other two were defensive wounds, and only one was fatal, how would we get flyback to the point that we have heard that there was a lot of blood on the walls? And there was also blood on the back door. So I'm beginning to think that the statement about there only being 3 stab wounds is incorrect.

[Jenifred]

That's got me thinking. If it was flyback, could we really only be looking at 3 stab wounds, (hand, shoulder, chest)? If the other two were defensive wounds, and only one was fatal, how would we get flyback to the point that we have heard that there was a lot of blood on the walls? And there was also blood on the back door. So I'm beginning to think that the statement about there only being 3 stab wounds is incorrect.
I know that we were passing the idea around that the chest was the last wound inflicted. Maybe it wasn't. If there was flyback, maybe the chest wound was the first hit. And by the time the last wound was made, the perp knew she was dead and stopped. JMO

Please don't be afraid to post, I think what you are doing is great. Mr. AG, this goes for you too. And anyone that has sleuthed or posted one word here. I think that we have been fair to our extent of information. And if we only reported on the "news" as you said gm, where would we be? Back as just a footnote without a forum. Look what we've done! We should be proud.

[JerseyGirl]

I know that we were passing the idea around that the chest was the last wound inflicted. Maybe it wasn't. If there was flyback, maybe the chest wound was the first hit. And by the time the last wound was made, the perp knew she was dead and stopped. JMOBut some people are claiming that there were 3 wounds - 1 to the chest, 1 to the shoulder, and 1 to the hand. How could the perp have hit her in the chest and then the shoulder being that they're on opposite sides of the body? If it's because she was standing at the time of the wound to her chest, I wonder if it would have been deep enough to be fatal as it would be the only wound in a location able to end her life, (at an angle that would create flyback anyway). Yet after reading the officer's statement in the search warrant again, it sounds as if it appeared to be one stab wound to the chest. It wasn't until later that we heard "multiple" stab wounds. That would lead me to believe that perhaps they weren't immediately observable.

[golfmom]

But some people are claiming that there were 3 wounds - 1 to the chest, 1 to the shoulder, and 1 to the hand. How could the perp have hit her in the chest and then the shoulder being that they're on opposite sides of the body? If it's because she was standing at the time of the wound to her chest, I wonder if it would have been deep enough to be fatal as it would be the only wound in a location able to end her life, (at an angle that would create flyback anyway). Yet after reading the officer's statement in the search warrant again, it sounds as if it appeared to be one stab wound to the chest. It wasn't until later that we heard "multiple" stab wounds. That would lead me to believe that perhaps they weren't immediately observable.

LOL ... I never considered the shoulder as in back, I thought the reference was in the front around the collar bone.

[SouthEastSleuth]

I too feel as if I’ve been offended and targeted unfairly. I have posted enormous amounts on alternative theories and possibly exculpatory information. And the insinuation that I made my decision solely on supposed inside information is upsetting to me. I took my time and have invested over 100 hours. If you don’t like my conclusion fine, but all that supposed insider stuff is right here on the boards. If you don’t want to consider that information as reliable, of course that is your right. But to ridicule or dismiss me because I do is not.

I feel now as if the only thing I’m legitimately able to sleuth now is news. Any theory, idea or information will be dismissed or belittled. Interesting, I am now in the position of the people I tried to help and am becoming increasingly afraid to post.
This whole issues, PMs, etc., reminds me so much of those "tip lines" we often hear about with certain cases. People are allowed to call in, anonymously quite often, and leave "tips" for LE, sometimes even the media.

Sure, as LE will often say, probably 99% of these "tips" are useless - crackpots, weirdos, information that there is no way to substantiate, someone with a bone to pick, too vague, on and on and on. BUT, there is always that remaining 1%.

You then sometimes hear LE report even that they received a "random tip" that led them to this, or led to them that.

While I understand the position of the moderators, if someone is a member of this forum, then they can post for themselves, it would seem too that we may end up NOT obtaining information that could very well be useful in this case. That said, it was my understanding that we were now posting, clearly, if information being posted was UNCONFIRMED, or, UNVERIFIED, what have you....

I think it is still useful to HAVE that information. It CAN serve a purpose. Someone on here can read it, and choose for themselves whether to give that information credence, or not. But where that information CAN become really useful, especially in a forum like this, is having someone grab onto that UNCONFIRMED information, run with it, and see what, if anything, they can find, and to possibly be able to indeed CONFIRM the information, or, as the case may be, completely RULE OUT the information.

I am certainly new here, and many if not all of you guys have way more experience at all of this me. But, to silence ANY theory, ANY opinion, ANY idea, would seem contrary to what sleuthing is all about, to me anyway.

As I said, I can see clearly the frustration inherent in reading, "someone sent me a PM and told me blah blah blah," or, "someone told me this or that." BUT, as long as that type of information is qualified as to the source, quality of the information, substantive nature, etc., then what's the harm?? The first thing I, personally, notice these past few days, with any post, is the beginning - does it say "UNCOMFIRMED," or something to that effect, or, does it say "CONFIRMED." Then I take that information, and digest it accordingly. And, start digging away for more information, if warranted.

It does seem to me, that if information is presented as "CONFIRMED," then there must be some way to back that up, with direct quotes, links elsewhere, something.

Remember, that 1%. All it takes is one solid lead to solve a case.

And I applaud each and every person on here - for your posts, your insights, your thoughts, your opinions, your ideas. Without ALL of the information here, whether confirmed or unconfirmed, we would be doing one thing and one thing only - waiting for a news release from LE. And that folks, ain't been happenin!

[JerseyGirl]

I just want to encourage everyone to take a step back, and remember why we all joined this forum. Mister A, I can understand where you're coming from but I'm also positive that Timex meant no harm with her statement. She was basically stating the opinion that if the family suspected no guilt in Raven, they would not have reached out to someone who does. I think that the words "anti-Raven site" were typed out of quickness or for lack of a better phrase. Your blog is amazing and you cover a great variety of stories. You are virtually single-handedly responsible for bringing Janet's case to light. Look at how far we've come! Please stay to see this through. You are bright, witty, articulate, and full of heart. Losing you would be a HUGE detriment to this forum.

Golfmom, check out the new TOS-type post that Tybee(?) posted. It states that gossip and rumor are allowed as they are often part of the boards. So please continue what you've been doing, and just be sure to mention if something is rumor or gossip. You were one of the initial "Google girls", and the group of you pressured the media enough to get her story on Greta! That's no small task so you can clearly see the power of this union, and the effect that your presence has had on this case. Please ... everyone ... let's relax and try to refocus. We're all here for Janet. This is the friendliest, tightest-knit forum of which I've ever been a part. We have done amazing things in this case, and I've grown to become committed to it. To lose any one of you would be tragic to this forum. Please stay & continue to be yourself. As a group, we have gotten so far! Please don't anyone get discouraged or throw in the towel now!!! With affection ...

[Jenifred]

LOL ... I never considered the shoulder as in back, I thought the reference was in the front around the collar bone.
I assumed as much too. That it was in the front.

[curious1]

I am certainly new here, and many if not all of you guys have way more experience at all of this me. But, to silence ANY theory, ANY opinion, ANY idea, would seem contrary to what sleuthing is all about, to me anyway.
:clap:

[golfmom]

Did I mention that I love ya'll . ..
:blowkiss:

[PrayersForMaura]

ok, am i going nuts here?
i thought mr.allgood's blogs were all listed under the media links thread. Where did they go??

I know I posted them myself. Sorry if i wasn't supposed to...

[golfmom]

ok, am i going nuts here?
i thought mr.allgood's blogs were all listed under the media links thread. Where did they go??

I know I posted them myself. Sorry if i wasn't supposed to...

:waitasec: I know that MrAG blogs are not traditional main-stream media, but I've always viewed them along the lines of editorials. Sort of like what Bob Greene used to do.

[JerseyGirl]

Did I mention that I love ya'll . ..
:blowkiss:Right back atcha, GM! :blowkiss:

[cappuccina]

and the time, effort, and intelligent thought that goes into it...

Timex, here's what I don't understand...you come off lots of times as being annoyed, and overly rigid about information and the way it is posted on this board...This is an INTERNET FORUM, and we have freedom of speech and expression. Frankly, the ONLY things that can be regulated on this board are:

1. Remarks that cross the line from speech to action (a la the Supreme Court decisions on this);

2. Remarks that qualify as "hate" speech or threats- again because they have been determined to be "beyond speech" and thus out of the realm of "normal" freedom of speech; and

3. Things that violate WS terms of service, like posting another poster's personal info., etc.

You can think of it as a large coffeehouse where different conversations are going on about different topics at different tables. If I say to my friend, for example: " You know, I was told XXXXX about something; I don't know if it's true or not, and I cannot reveal my source, because my source is uncomfortable about coming forward"....THIS STATEMENT IS JUST NOT "CENSORABLE" SPEECH...It's just not, OK? It may bug you, you may not like it, but you should not censor it...I also cannot censor you trying to censor it, but I can tell you what I think about it...(is everyone writing this down, LOL)

What is your agenda here? I didn't want to come out and say this, but why be snarky to people who are VOLUNTEERING thier time, energy and intelligence to help solve a crime? They are not doing anything wrong. I have seen very little on the Janet Abaroa board that has violated any of the tenets I've listed above, with the exception of AutumnBorn's little diatribe. We don't ned to me micromanaged; we are a very civilized group of pople, if you ask me...

Something that comes to mind is instead of being envious of some of the greatly talented people we have here, why not learn from them instead...I know I am taking advantage of having people like Mr. A. here; I learn new things from him all the time, and appreciate his gifts and insights related to the human condition, as well as sleuthing and writing...I appreciate the time that others give to this and related causes that I cannot...I appreciate golfmom's intellectual quickenss and ability to "juggle the hundreds of balls that are in the air on this", NCBankers willingness to be a gentleman and share all kinds of information, SES's thouroughness and logic, EI's humor and insight, etc., etc.

...just my opinion...

[golfmom]

Just to add PFM organizational abilities!

Madness and Chaos I tell you without her it would all be Madness and Chaos!

[cappuccina]

I did not mean to leave her out; my brain is fried in this heat today...

[JerseyGirl]

And the first-hand insight of Hummingbird, Newkid, Moxie, Munch, Rooster, Family_friend, Roddick, Juliagoulia ... whom I thank from the bottom of my heart for sharing their knowledge in spite of their pain. :blowkiss: (This of course also applies to anyone that I may have missed.)

ETA: We could never have come this far without those of you that knew Janet. I hope & pray that you will all get to see justice for Janet.

[cappuccina]

...what I mean, EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE HERE...and we are a pretty civilized group...

I was not trying to leave anyone out; I was just trying to get my point across quickly...I'm typing with no air conditioning right now in 90 degree heat (my house is from 1926; I have no central air because I have steam heat...room air conditioners just ain't doin' it today, my friends...I am not a Southerner, I live up North, and have never learned to elegantly deal with the heat the way they do...)

[JerseyGirl]

...what I mean, EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE HERE...and we are a pretty civilized group...

I was not trying to leave anyone out; I was just trying to get my point across quickly...I know that. :) Your post just provided the perfect opportunity for me to thank the friends (and family?) of Janet that have registered to share their information with us.

Love your posts, cappuccina ... I'm glad you've joined us here!!! :)

ETA: And I couldn't agree more about the civilized group ... this is by far the best forum in which I've participated ... by far.

[Timex]

1) mrallgood...does your site support Raven? Or does it not say you will not rest until he is sitting in jail with someone "purdy" in orange sitting behind him? IMO, that makes your posts about this case anti-raven. Ive never been to your site, so honestly dont know what else is there, but it is clear you are of the opinion Raven is guilty, and there can be no other explanation in this case. The term "anti raven" was meant only for your blogs position concerning this case, as like I said, I really have no idea what else is there.

2) No theory or opinion has been kept of these boards. Anyone is free to post any theory but they MUST post it for themsleves. They cannot ask someone else to post for them. We dont allow that. Not in this case, not in other cases. No one has said rumors cannot be posted. Innuendo has been, and will continue to be allowed. Ive seen several posts speculating Ravens family members as accomplices in his embezzlement scheme. They have been allowed to stand, even though there have been no charges, no hints form LE that there was an accomplice of any type. Ive seen posts about folks that have no connection what-so-ever to this case being theorized as being a distant relative etc. They have been allowed to stand.

The confirmed - unconfirmed system that has been put into place is fine...dont think anyone has said differently. But then again, saying something is confirmed should require a source for the confirmation.

3) Golfmon...I have no idea where or how you have gotten the evidence you have in this case. I can only go by what I have read, which appeared to be mostly through your "contacts". Who the contacts are really makes no difference to me. The rule remains the same. As for belittleing your theories, I havent seen anyone do that. Saying Im not ready to believe what I have not been able to see or hear for myself is not belittleing, its simply stating that I cannot/will not form an opinion when I dont have the information for myself. It would not be fair to anyone here for me to do that. As much as I sympathize with Janets family, my responsibility is to treat everyone here the same, whether they be friends, family of Janet, Raven or just plain everyday posters. That may sound cold and wrong to some of you, but that's how moderating goes. I have always held this position, it isnt something new just for this case. As for members being afraid to post...I too get the pm's saying "I am afraid to join because Im not part of the group", or "I am afraid to join in because I disagree" etc. I tell everyone the same thing. The boards are here for all to post on, if you wish to join in, please do so.


4) Media link are just that...links to media sources. Blogs are not media sources.

[Roddick]

There's a difference between the government restricting free speech and a private organization doing so. First amendment applies to the congress passing laws abridging the freedom of speech or the press and has been extended to states and local governments and agencies. It's not a blanket protection. I don't know the division of ownership of this board, but if it's Timex's board, Timex can do whatever he/she wants with it. I happen to agree that the posts sometimes seem overly assertive, but Timex is the mod, we aren't.

[cappuccina]

...a private organization...like a corporation or a private school...

We sit out here "in the ether"... This is not IBM or Harvard...

[Timex]

...a private organization...like a corporation or a private school...

We sit out here "in the ether"... This is not IBM or Harvard...

Please see this post

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24378

[Roddick]

This isn't a private organization? We're out in the ether? Where in the world did you find "out in the ether" as an element of the first amendment. I'll go check lexis and see if I can find some SCOTUS cases about your personal freedom of speech protection being extended to speaking your mind on web servers maintained by private individuals. If that was the case, then mods would be legally unable to delete posts that they find offensive or off-topic. However, that is obviously not the case since almost all boards reserve the right to delete whatever they want. HTH.

[cappuccina]

...trust me, I do...

I am merely differentiating between saying that you want something a certain way...like the thread you directed me to...

...and, for example, the chain of evidence rules in a crime lab, or a corporation's restrictions on giving away secrets to competitors, both of which have a legitimate legal and public policy basis...

I don't plan on violating TOS; I am merely pointing out to you that typing

"SO AND SO'S WORD IS LAW" IN LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS on an Internet discussion forum is equivalent to a child saying "GIVE ME CANDY"...there is no legal basis for it...I will respect it because you guys are reasonable adults, but it is not equivalent to the above...

I am done with this issue now...

[JerseyGirl]

Hey everyone ... this is WAY off-topic but I don't know if you've heard. Please check out this link:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - Unknown tot in pictures may be in danger (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=675127)

I'm sorry that it's so off-topic but I ask that this post be allowed to stay here so that this message can quickly get out as far as possible.

ETA: I have copied the pictures and the news links into an e-mail, and mailed it out to people that I know. Perhaps some of you can do the same.

[golfmom]

http://www.yesweekly.com/main.asp?SectionID=18&SubSectionID=44&ArticleID=230&TM=69933.55

Indeed, bloggers have stormed the figurative media Bastille, critiquing existing news stories from a hundred thousand angles, fact-checking through Google from their home computers, even forging their own brand of coverage that is quickly gaining legitimacy. Matt Drudge at drudgereport.com is now required reading for everyone in the news business. Bloggers at the Power Line (powerlineblog.com) claim to have ‘brought down’ Dan Rather when in September they revealed as forgeries several documents pertaining to President Bush’s National Guard Service, memos upon which a CBS News investigation spearheaded by Rather was based. Bloggers now have a presence in the White House press corps; there are bloggers covering the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Elected officials keep them, as do MSM personalities. And while the argument over whether bloggers are journalists or not wages on, millions of souls across the nation are not so quietly forging this new method of gathering and disseminating news and opinion.

---------------

[SouthEastSleuth]

Much has been discussed as far as Raven's psyche, personality, etc., if you will. We were informed of an alleged assault on a soccer referee for example.

I'm wondering - does anyone know of any other instances, eye-witness accounts, etc., of any violent tendencies that Raven may have had in the past?

It just occurs to me how often we read of cases where someone is assused and/or convicted of a crime, and a friend or neighbor might say, "John never struck me as a violent person," or, "John would never hurt another person." And yet, often these same seemingly "innocent" people are sometimes accused, and then tried and convicted. Trials are indeed filled with character witnesses, who vouch unequivocally for the accused's character, personality, etc.

And, I'm sure there are countless cases where a person indeed NEVER once exhibited any sort of violence whatsoever, but, for whatever reason, snapped, acted violently in the heat of the moment, whatever...

But, on the flip side, quite often when an individual does some act of violence, whether it's physical, emotional, psychological - that same person has a history in that regard. May not be KNOWN, but often the history is there..

Someone in Charles Manson's past may very well have described him as a nice young man. Who knows.

I keep wondering what someday we will hear about Raven Abaroa in