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beesy
06-07-2005, 06:44 PM
Hi, newbie here,
I too believe Darlie did it, but what bothers me is how she had the nerve to cut her throat. How did she know she wouldn't hit the caratoid artery? She doesnt strike me as having much medical knowledge. The arm, no problem, but the throat? Pictures show a small 'hesitation' cut above the deeper one on her arm. Maybe she was trying to kill herself too, then when she didnt hit the artery decided that was a bad idea? :chicken: Too ouchy! Remember I am a newbie, so don't fuss if this has been discussed a million times already:o
beesy

Kaly
06-07-2005, 08:44 PM
Interesting subject. You never hear about successful suicides from throat slashings. And when suicidals slash their wrists, they often do it the wrong way (back and forth instead of straight, toward the elbow, which is probably scarier).

beesy
06-07-2005, 09:06 PM
For whatever reason she cut it, its hard to believe she didnt, the slash to her throat is not the typical way a throat is cut by another person. You've seen the pictures of the infamous "ear to ear" slashes. Hers starts up and goes down, easier for her to do than someone else. I've seen a theory which says she turned the dull part of the knife towards her neck, making it harder to slice all the way through. And of course, she grabbed a towel quickly for her freaking self. probably had it out ready to use.

Dani_T
06-08-2005, 12:18 AM
Hi, newbie here,
I too believe Darlie did it, but what bothers me is how she had the nerve to cut her throat. How did she know she wouldn't hit the caratoid artery? She doesnt strike me as having much medical knowledge. The arm, no problem, but the throat? Pictures show a small 'hesitation' cut above the deeper one on her arm. Maybe she was trying to kill herself too, then when she didnt hit the artery decided that was a bad idea? :chicken: Too ouchy! Remember I am a newbie, so don't fuss if this has been discussed a million times already:o
beesy

Darlie needed to do some serious damage to herself to make it look like she was attacked and incapacitated.

I always ask myself what would it be easier to do- hold the knife in your outstretched arms and plunge it deeply into your body whilst hoping you would miss your vital organs or else run the edge along your throat. Yeah- it makes me shudder to think about slitting your throat but would she have known her artery was that close to the surface? I doubt it personally. I certainly wouldn't have known were it not for this case. Whenever you see movies where people die from having their throats cut they are actually slashed from ear to ear with a deep open wound- nothing like running it along your skin.

I couldn't possibly imagining stabbing myself in the same way those boys were stabbed- it seems easier to run the knife along your throat than do that. Having said that cutting my own throat sounds absurd and ridiculous anyway!!

Mary456
06-08-2005, 11:59 PM
but would she have known her artery was that close to the surface? I doubt it personally. I certainly wouldn't have known were it not for this case.

Nor would I, and I used to teach Health!

I doubt Darlie even knew there was a carotid artery in the throat. A woman who throws wet towels on her sons to stop the bleeding ;) obviously doesn't have a clue about human anatomy

beesy
06-09-2005, 01:11 AM
Now that you both pointed that out, I didn't realize it was so close either. Most murder scenes show the person's head nearly cut off which makes you think the artery is much deeper. My husband thought it was also. Have you noticed the damn scar is barely noticeable now? :rolleyes:

duffy
06-10-2005, 09:51 PM
To even think of having a knife anywhere around my throat makes my stomache do the roller coaster flip flop. It's insane! Because I believe Darlie to be guilty of murdering her sons, I think she is very capable of inflicting these wounds to herself, knowing help wouldn't be that far away.

The wounds inflicted on the boys were deep stabbing wounds, Darlie's were "slice" type. I think that's why she is leaning more towards the 2 other dudes did it. Law enforcement studies would tell you one person wouldn't have stabbed and sliced too.

Goody
06-11-2005, 07:24 PM
For whatever reason she cut it, its hard to believe she didnt, the slash to her throat is not the typical way a throat is cut by another person. You've seen the pictures of the infamous "ear to ear" slashes. Hers starts up and goes down, easier for her to do than someone else. I've seen a theory which says she turned the dull part of the knife towards her neck, making it harder to slice all the way through. And of course, she grabbed a towel quickly for her freaking self. probably had it out ready to use.
I don't think the dull side of the knife would even cut her. I think it is most likely that she thought she had to make it look like a left handed person or someone standing facing her had cut her. She would have been more interested in making it look like she did not do it than how the perp would have done it. With that thought in mind, I think she could have held the dull side of the blade and simply slid the knife in a one or two second movement, thinking the chain would prevent the knife from going too deep. She just lucky and missed the artery. I think she probably was surprised when she heard that it had almost been cut. I don't think she intendd to go that deep.

Also that downward angle is typical in self-inflicted neck wounds.

Goody
06-11-2005, 07:26 PM
Interesting subject. You never hear about successful suicides from throat slashings. And when suicidals slash their wrists, they often do it the wrong way (back and forth instead of straight, toward the elbow, which is probably scarier).
Well, they do happen. That crazy woman in Illinois last year nearly decapitated herself.

Goody
06-11-2005, 07:32 PM
I couldn't possibly imagining stabbing myself in the same way those boys were stabbed- it seems easier to run the knife along your throat than do that. Having said that cutting my own throat sounds absurd and ridiculous anyway!!
Didn't McDonald stab himself and injure a lung? But he was a doctor. So was the other guy I heard of who did the same thing. The only thing Darlie has in common with them though is that Darin claims to have studied first aid for 7 years. That would put him right in the middle of planning the cover up if she got it from him. In all those classes he says he took, surely there were doctors and paramedics, etc. who talked of such things. When I studied law, my teachers were lawyers, prosecutors, judges, etc. And we studied actual cases. Why wouldn't first aid classes have some similar experiences?

Goody
06-11-2005, 07:37 PM
The wounds inflicted on the boys were deep stabbing wounds, Darlie's were "slice" type. I think that's why she is leaning more towards the 2 other dudes did it. Law enforcement studies would tell you one person wouldn't have stabbed and sliced too.
Well, it is possible, Duffy, but I think what the two different types of wounds say the loudest is that there would have to be a change in motive if there is a change in method. The boys were stabbed as they were because the attacker was so motivated to make sure they died as quickly as possible. If he then turned to Darlie and made a slicing motion instead of a deep stab, whether he landed it or not, it tells me that he was not as motivated to kill her. You have to ask yourself then why would anyone want to kill children but not the mother, WHO would do such a thing? A stranger just doesn't fit into that profile.

beesy
06-11-2005, 08:46 PM
thanks everybody, now I can think past the throat slice and get on with my original thought that Darlie did it.
You're right Goody, the slice is very atypical of another person doing it. Darin even said something stupid about how the killer would have had to go around her boobs to reach her neck, if she were laying down as she "guessed " she was. Her 38DD breasts as he reportedly told anyone who'd listen at the ER that night. :loser:
I'm sure she was surprised to hear she nearly cut the artery, but then what a windfall for her. Strangers do not target children unless its for sexual reasons. Then, as most of you know, they are kidnapped, not murdered in their sleep.

beesy
06-11-2005, 09:12 PM
Didn't McDonald stab himself and injure a lung? But he was a doctor.

Ah yes, the good Dr. My 1st true crime obession. Yes, he put an ice pick thru his chest which deflated his right lung by 40%. There were blood droplets in the bathroom sink which were his. Its very rare, but the entire family had different blood types, so even before DNA they were able to tell it was his blood. There were also a couple of droplets near the kitchen sink where he kept his surgical gloves. He most likely put those on to write PIG on the head board.
Nobody would overkill 3(4 since Colette was prg) children and a woman, yet leave an adult male alive. He was not shot, stabbed several times, or choked which might have made the "killers" think he was dead. That'd be different. As with Darlie's case, his wounds were very different than the rest of the family's. He claimed to have several other boo-boo's :boohoo: which can easily be explained. There was a fight to the death that night, but not between him and 3 strangers, between him and his wife, his High School sweetheart.
It's also interesting to note that Macdonald was taking Rx diet pills which is basically legal speed. He'd been working several nights in a row and had kept the kids that evening while Colette took a college class.
Darlie was also taking Rx diet pills, intersting eh?

There are some gruesome crime scene/autopsy pix of Colette and the girls. Just google image Colette Macdonald and you'll find them.

Kaly
06-11-2005, 09:18 PM
Didn't McDonald stab himself and injure a lung? But he was a doctor. So was the other guy I heard of who did the same thing. MacDonald didn't actually stab himself. He cut himself a little bit, with surgical precision. His lung bubbled a little air. He was never hurt seriously. Who was the other guy you mentioned?

Regarding Darlie's bruised arms, those looked so familiar to me. I got exactly that kind of blood drainage from gravity after an automobile accident. She didn't fight off any intruder(s).

Kaly
06-11-2005, 09:20 PM
Ah yes, the good Dr. My 1st true crime obession. Yes, he put an ice pick thru his chest which deflated his right lung by 40%. Good posts, beesy! Looks like we posted about Mac at the same time. You know more details than I. So the puncture to his lung was with the ice pick, not a cut/slice, then?

beesy
06-12-2005, 01:43 AM
Yes, it was a very simple puncture, not a slice or cut. To make it seem as if Colette and the girls were attacked by more than one person, he used 3 different weapons, a 2x4(in the bedroom for shelving), the ice pick and a knife. He seemed to think this made his story more believable, but again, nobody would use different weapons on helpless victims, yet use an ice pick only on a Green Beret. He had some bruises, but as I said before, there was a fight that night. Colette was a grown woman and from her wounds appears to have fought hard for her life and those of her children. In fact, most likely she could have gotten away if she'd not gone into the smaller girl's room to save her. There was an outside door right off the master bedroom. He knocked her out and when she came to, instead of running out that door, she ran to Kristie's room. Of course, as a mother too, that'd be my 1st instinct, but in hindsight, if she'd have run outside, she may have been able to get help and she and Kristie both would have lived. Kimmy was killed right away by a blow to the face. These murders were only a couple of years after the Tate/La Bianca murders, most likely where he got the idea. There was a large hippie enclave in Fayetteville at the time.
I ramble, but I do love the case, I've been studying it since 7th grade, and I do hate the man. Anything "new" which pops up will never change my mind about his guilt. I'd love for him to be innocent, but there is too much evidence. In most cases, the easiest answer or the one which makes the most sense is the right answer. Can you even imagine people chanting "acid is groovy, kill the pigs" while attacking somebody? I still can't understand why he said the "killers" were saying that. Maybe that's what he thought hippies said. :waitasec:
His only defense is shoddy police work. Sound familiar?

Goody
06-12-2005, 11:38 PM
MacDonald didn't actually stab himself. He cut himself a little bit, with surgical precision. His lung bubbled a little air. He was never hurt seriously. Who was the other guy you mentioned? ).
I can't remember his name, but you may have seen the movie. Melissa Gilbert played his sister-in-law in it. I don't know if the movie gave the real names or not, but I did catch a profile on the real case once and the movie was pretty well on target. The doctor and his brother lived in the same subdivision and both families were very close. In the beginning the family beleive he was a victim of an unknown intruder as was his wife who was murdered, but eventually the truth surfaces and the sister-in-law goes to the police.

Regarding Darlie's bruised arms, those looked so familiar to me. I got exactly that kind of blood drainage from gravity after an automobile accident. She didn't fight off any intruder(s).
I agree. I think she just took advantage of the bruises appearing without explanation. I jsut don't understand why the medical people didn't pick up on it if that is what it was. So I still consider the possibility that there is another explanation.

beesy
06-13-2005, 03:51 AM
Regarding Darlie's bruised arms, those looked so familiar to me. I got exactly that kind of blood drainage from gravity after an automobile accident. She didn't fight off any intruder(s).
I dont quite understand what you mean. I know what lividity is, but what are you saying caused yours? Injuries or being in the same position at the hospital or what? Another thing about the bruises, I bruise like crazy when I have blood drawn or an IV put in which is usually done on the inside of the arm. Pix of Darlie in the hospital show her covered in tubes. I don't just bruise at the injection site. I bruise up and down my arm. She also had some bruises on her knuckles, but it wouldn't take much to slam your fists against a piece of furniture or whatever....

cami
06-13-2005, 09:36 AM
Good posts, beesy! Looks like we posted about Mac at the same time. You know more details than I. So the puncture to his lung was with the ice pick, not a cut/slice, then?


No, it wasn't. He used a scalpel not an icepick to inflict the lung injury. He also had observed similar surgery a few days before that so he knew where to inflict the injury without damaging any other organs.

cami
06-13-2005, 09:43 AM
Yes, it was a very simple puncture, not a slice or cut. To make it seem as if Colette and the girls were attacked by more than one person, he used 3 different weapons, a 2x4(in the bedroom for shelving), the ice pick and a knife. He seemed to think this made his story more believable, but again, nobody would use different weapons on helpless victims, yet use an ice pick only on a Green Beret. He had some bruises, but as I said before, there was a fight that night. Colette was a grown woman and from her wounds appears to have fought hard for her life and those of her children. In fact, most likely she could have gotten away if she'd not gone into the smaller girl's room to save her. There was an outside door right off the master bedroom. He knocked her out and when she came to, instead of running out that door, she ran to Kristie's room. Of course, as a mother too, that'd be my 1st instinct, but in hindsight, if she'd have run outside, she may have been able to get help and she and Kristie both would have lived. Kimmy was killed right away by a blow to the face. These murders were only a couple of years after the Tate/La Bianca murders, most likely where he got the idea. There was a large hippie enclave in Fayetteville at the time.
I ramble, but I do love the case, I've been studying it since 7th grade, and I do hate the man. Anything "new" which pops up will never change my mind about his guilt. I'd love for him to be innocent, but there is too much evidence. In most cases, the easiest answer or the one which makes the most sense is the right answer. Can you even imagine people chanting "acid is groovy, kill the pigs" while attacking somebody? I still can't understand why he said the "killers" were saying that. Maybe that's what he thought hippies said. :waitasec:
His only defense is shoddy police work. Sound familiar?




you have a few things incorrect. Kris was already dead when Colette managed to stagger into her room to try and protect her. MacDonald heard her and caught up with in that room where he beat her furiously with that club, breaking both her arms and crushing her skull. Kimmie did not die instantly with the first blow to the head, she was still clinically alive when she was stabbed in the neck.

The murders happened a few months after Tate/LaBianca, not a few years. Sharon Tate was murdered in August 1969.

I too have been studing this case for years. It's my favourite. You must be reading on Christina's site if you've seen the autopsy photos. Isn't her site great!!!!

duffy
06-13-2005, 12:21 PM
Well, it is possible, Duffy, but I think what the two different types of wounds say the loudest is that there would have to be a change in motive if there is a change in method. The boys were stabbed as they were because the attacker was so motivated to make sure they died as quickly as possible. If he then turned to Darlie and made a slicing motion instead of a deep stab, whether he landed it or not, it tells me that he was not as motivated to kill her. You have to ask yourself then why would anyone want to kill children but not the mother, WHO would do such a thing? A stranger just doesn't fit into that profile.
Ok Goody, Duffy had to read your post twice (I was really tired last night) to understand that my post was misunderstood. lol!

I don't subscribe to the other dude did it scenario. I absolutely believe darlie did it. A stranger or someone who knew the routiers and wanted to do them harm for whatever reason would most likely hold to what police know in that they wouldn't viciously stab the boys numerous times and then slice at darlie a couple of times.

To me this doesn't convict darlie in and of itself but it does add to the damning evidence against her.

I also acknowledge that not every criminal will fit a profile, there are exceptions to the rule. I just don't buy darlies defense that this is one of the exceptions.

Thanks for showing me my lack of clarity!

Have a good Monday!!............Duffy

beesy
06-13-2005, 10:27 PM
No, it wasn't. He used a scalpel not an icepick to inflict the lung injury. He also had observed similar surgery a few days before that so he knew where to inflict the injury without damaging any other organs.
Pardon me, dear, but it was an icepick. And he would not have had to watch a surgery to know where to poke his chest and cause his lung to collapse that small amount. There were no scalpels involved in the murders at all. It'd be hard to cause a penetrating round wound to his chest with a scalpel. Don't start this with me. You won't win...I know this case! :razz:

Goody
06-13-2005, 10:41 PM
Ok Goody, Duffy had to read your post twice (I was really tired last night) to understand that my post was misunderstood. lol!

I don't subscribe to the other dude did it scenario. I absolutely believe darlie did it. A stranger or someone who knew the routiers and wanted to do them harm for whatever reason would most likely hold to what police know in that they wouldn't viciously stab the boys numerous times and then slice at darlie a couple of times.

To me this doesn't convict darlie in and of itself but it does add to the damning evidence against her.

I also acknowledge that not every criminal will fit a profile, there are exceptions to the rule. I just don't buy darlies defense that this is one of the exceptions.

Thanks for showing me my lack of clarity!

Have a good Monday!!............Duffy
Ah, another one. I tend to speak of myself in the third person as well. LOL!

Okay, first, I don't think I misunderstood you. I was agreeing with you in part, and just adding alternative viewpoints in the rest. We both obviously think Darlie is guilty, but I think we may read some of the evidence differently.

beesy
06-13-2005, 10:52 PM
you have a few things incorrect. Kris was already dead when Colette managed to stagger into her room to try and protect her. MacDonald heard her and caught up with in that room where he beat her furiously with that club, breaking both her arms and crushing her skull. Kimmie did not die instantly with the first blow to the head, she was still clinically alive when she was stabbed in the neck.

The murders happened a few months after Tate/LaBianca, not a few years. Sharon Tate was murdered in August 1969.

I too have been studing this case for years. It's my favourite. You must be reading on Christina's site if you've seen the autopsy photos. Isn't her site great!!!!
I'm sorry honey, but you are wrong. For 1 thing, there really isn't a way to determine for sure when Kristie died. And you misunderstood what I said. Collette most likely,(again there is no known time line) had time to escape. I know Kristie had already been attacked when Collette went into her room. But was she dead yet? Impossible to tell. Nobody can get time of death down to the minute and you know that. And yes, of course I know Collette was furiously attacked in that room. Duh, I wasn't telling the entire story, just trying to answer a question.
Kimmie's autopsy report says the blow to her head probably caused death right away, and does it matter if she were brain dead when he cut her throat or not? Again, I was jotting a note to answer 1 question, not telling the entire story. When I said "Kimmie was killed right away by a blow to the head" I was simply shortening the story. As you know, it's a long one. I did mention the overkill of all 3/4 victims which indicates that I know full well that he cut her again. One blow is not overkill.
And how old are you? I'm 36, 7th grade was a long time ago for me, which is how long I've been studying this case. Did I say "years"? Jeez I meant months. I know the Tate/La Bianca case pretty well too. Aug. of '69 and Feb of '70 are months. It was a typo or brain fart, whatever. I'm not writing a thesis here. If I skimmed over things, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
About that site, I simply looked at the pix and read the autopsy reports of Kimmie and Kristie. I guess she doesn't have Collette's or at least I couldn't find it on there. There are some Tate/La Bianca pix and autopsy reports floating around the Net too.

beesy
06-14-2005, 01:12 AM
No, it wasn't. He used a scalpel not an icepick to inflict the lung injury. He also had observed similar surgery a few days before that so he knew where to inflict the injury without damaging any other organs. So this doesnt turn into a Dr. Mac thread, I'm sending you a PM. I disagree with some of your statements :twocents:

beesy
06-14-2005, 01:32 AM
[
QUOTE=cami]you have a few things incorrect. Kris was already dead when Colette managed to stagger into her room to try and protect her. MacDonald heard her and caught up with in that room where he beat her furiously with that club, breaking both her arms and crushing her skull. Kimmie did not die instantly with the first blow to the head, she was still clinically alive when she was stabbed in the neck.

The murders happened a few months after Tate/LaBianca, not a few years. Sharon Tate was murdered in August 1969.

I too have been studing this case for years. It's my favourite. You must be reading on Christina's site if you've seen the autopsy photos. Isn't her site great!!!! What I've said is merely theory based on things I've read. In a case like this, you cannot be correct or incorrect. Even if Dr. Mac confesses(yeah right) he'll never tell the exact story. Unless you are the Dr. himself, all anybody knows for sure is 3 people were slaughtered that night and 1 adult male was left alive with boo boo's. Anything anybody writes or says is conjecture. Read Kimmie's autopsy report again, it says 'probably' about the instant death. And I didn't mean years, I meant months. Lets move this to PM.

Jeana (DP)
06-14-2005, 01:01 PM
there's a McDonald thread around here some place. Feel free to take it there.

cami
06-14-2005, 02:56 PM
[ What I've said is merely theory based on things I've read. In a case like this, you cannot be correct or incorrect. Even if Dr. Mac confesses(yeah right) he'll never tell the exact story. Unless you are the Dr. himself, all anybody knows for sure is 3 people were slaughtered that night and 1 adult male was left alive with boo boo's. Anything anybody writes or says is conjecture. Read Kimmie's autopsy report again, it says 'probably' about the instant death. And I didn't mean years, I meant months. Lets move this to PM.

Right on didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Mary456
06-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Her 38DD breasts as he reportedly told anyone who'd listen at the ER that night. :loser:

Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.

I'll bet Sarilda and Darlie Kee wanted to pimp slap him after that little faux pas. :D

P.S. You shorted Darlie one D, but redeemed yourself by giving her two extra inches. Don't worry, Darin isn't angry with you. He's a very understanding guy. :rolleyes:

Kaly
06-15-2005, 04:18 AM
[/b]
I dont quite understand what you mean. I know what lividity is, but what are you saying caused yours? Injuries or being in the same position at the hospital or what? What is lividity? I'll have to look that up. I had a blow to the head by hitting the windshield but the only place there was any "blood" was when it all drained to below my eyes. I had two black eyes even though my eyes had not been touched, and a police car pulled us over a few days later and nearly arrested my husband for assault because of my black eyes. And I do not bruise easily at all.

Kaly
06-15-2005, 04:22 AM
Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.
Haha! And they left that in on Darlie's defense website? I'll have to watch that. But why were her boobs being discussed in the ER? I have yet to read a book on this case.

Kaly
06-15-2005, 04:25 AM
there's a McDonald thread around here some place. Feel free to take it there.Yeah, it's in the Crimes In the News folder. I've been trying to keep it going. It's hard not to get them entwined because there are so many similarities between the two cases!

cami
06-15-2005, 10:23 AM
What is lividity? I'll have to look that up. I had a blow to the head by hitting the windshield but the only place there was any "blood" was when it all drained to below my eyes. I had two black eyes even though my eyes had not been touched, and a police car pulled us over a few days later and nearly arrested my husband for assault because of my black eyes. And I do not bruise easily at all.

Lividity is marking on a corpse that shows where the blood settled. i.e. if you are found dead on your back, then your back should be pinkish/purple from the lividity.

Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.

beesy
06-16-2005, 01:10 AM
Right on didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.


:truce: Hi my feathers are unruffled. Seems we've learned from each other during this. I know I've learned from you at least. I've been reading thru some of Dr. Mac posts and they are very long and many of them. It's fun to brain storm with like minded people(i.e.) the Mac haters.

Goody
06-16-2005, 01:30 AM
Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.
Esp because it goes up right up under her arm, or almost to the armpit, I guess I should say.

Kaly
06-16-2005, 02:43 AM
Lividity is marking on a corpse that shows where the blood settled. i.e. if you are found dead on your back, then your back should be pinkish/purple from the lividity.

Right from the very beginning of this, I too thought that the bruise on the underside of her arm is more blood settling than any blunt force trauma.Do they also call it lividity if it's NOT on a corpse? Has anyone researched the difference between what blood settling bruises look like and what blunt force trauma bruises look like? I can't believe that people use those photos as some sort of evidence that she fought anybody, because right away it looked like blood settling to me. Any doctor could probably tell the difference, of course. Are Darlie's medical records posted online like Andrea Yates are? Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.

Dani_T
06-16-2005, 08:48 AM
Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.

Hi Kalypso,

The juror did see those photos. I'm going to repost here a section of a longer post I made the other day. It shows that the State very clearly showed the bruising which that one juror claims he didn't see. I don't know what is going on with him unless it is a completely shot memory because he had photos of the bruising shown up close to his face and he numerous nurses all unanimously testify that this bruising he claims he would have acquitted on could not have been from the attack because
a) they weren't there when she was in hospital
b) the photos taken at the police station on the 10th (4 days after) show very recent bruises (24-48 hrs old at the most).

There is nothing to be bothered about here from the states POV. The defense could not use the bruising at trial because it implicated Darlie (fresh bruising 4 days after the attack) rather than cast reasonable doubt. That juror has either been manipulated (I don't mean in a nasty way) by Darlie apologists (like Chris Brown for example) or has just completely forgotten parts of the trial.

From an earlier post:
I'm not sure if you have MTJD but by far the best photos showing her bruises are 52 A, B, C, E (having said that it is very clear when you compare the photos that our friend Chris Brown has manipulated the colours and contrast on a number of them to make it look worse). They are all state exhibits. If you read the testimony (vol 31 has lots on it) you will quickly see why Mulder did not harp on and on about the bruises- because the testimomy unanimously said that it was recent bruising and no way could it have been done 4 days previously. The nurses unanimously said they would have noticed the beginnings of such massive bruising (similar to what you would find in a car accident). One of them says it would have been charted over and over again. One said she would be in a lot of pain. They all said it was severe brusing and certainly not something they would overlook.

Here is one of the exerpts

20 Q. 52-G, is that a photograph that we can
21 see of Ms. Routier's right arm?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And if you could just watch
24 your shoulder here, if you can keep it down, because we
25 have jurors -- in fact, I'll just get you to go along the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
871

1 jury rail in a moment. But the blood we see here, is
2 that from an injury, abrasions that were on the arm?
3 A. No, that looks like dried blood. Just
4 blood dries and it is hard to wash off. She does not
5 look like she's been cleaned.
6 Q. Okay. And holding 52-F also, is that
7 another photograph of the arm?
8 A. Yes. This is the same arm, different
9 aspect.
10 Q. Okay. If you had seen evidence of
11 this blunt -- if she had had blunt trauma on the 6th of
12 June, would you have seen it somewhere here in the ICU on
13 her arm?
14 A. From what I saw in the photograph, I
15 think we would be able to see it on this part of the arm
16 right here.
17 Q. Okay. If you could just start at that
18 end of the jury and show them.
19 A. Did they see this other bruise?
20 Q. We'll go over that in a minute, after
21 you finish that.
22 A. All this on here is dried blood from
23 either her neck wound or the wound here.
24 Q. And if you could show 32-A.
25 A. Okay.

http://www.justicefordarlie.net/transcripts/volumes/vol-31.php

Note that 32-A is actually 52-A (32-A is a statement of the defendant and not in evidence and in the context of the bruising it is clear that what was shown was 52-A which is the clearest photo of the arm with the bruising from wrist to up near her underarm

The State got the witness to show the jury at the jury rail those photos. They saw them. Right in front of them. The defense on the other hand submitted a couple of photos which don't show the brusing at all clearly and they didn't cross exam extensively about the bruises at all.

Now you'll say they didn't do that because they sucked and did a poor job of defending Darlie. But the reality is that if they did make a big deal about the photographs they would be hammer the nails into the coffin because every one of those medical experts said that brusing like that had to be recent and that there were no signs of that kind of bruising when she was in hospital. Now even if you want to argue that they were subconciously biased and blocked that bruising from their minds (which I think is a fairly ludicrous statement really as regardless of whether or not they thought she was guilty there would have been charts with the bruising noted and it would be impossible for every single one of them to just 'forgot' that bruising) the fact that those bruises are recent and not 4 days old could and would be attested to by any doctor or nurse of medicial practioner you put in the stand who had absolutely nothing to do with Darlie. It is an objective statement. They were new bruises. Not 4 days old.

That's why the defense didn't scream it from the rafters - and for good old Charlie to come out a couple of years later saying he would never have convicted on the basis of those bruises is flat out wrong too- because he saw them right up close and he heard all the testimony that it couldn't be bruising that was done on June 6th.

If Mulder had blown up those photos and rambled to the jury about them for hours he would have signed Darlie's guilty verdict.

cami
06-16-2005, 09:11 AM
Do they also call it lividity if it's NOT on a corpse? Has anyone researched the difference between what blood settling bruises look like and what blunt force trauma bruises look like? I can't believe that people use those photos as some sort of evidence that she fought anybody, because right away it looked like blood settling to me. Any doctor could probably tell the difference, of course. Are Darlie's medical records posted online like Andrea Yates are? Oh well, I guess they didn't get into this subject at the trial, but that one juror interviewed said he would have acquitted if he had seen those photos. And that bothers me that the prosecution either missed this or ignored this. Because the defense uses it to their advantage.

I don't think anyone takes Charlie the juror very seriously, anyone in the know that is. The testimony proves that the photos of the bruises were shown to the jury. If I remember from the testimony the doctor did testify that they appeared to be some sort of blunt force trauma but I would need a reread on that. My own personal opinion on the bruising on her hands is they are from the iv needle. I sure remember my hands being bruised up like that from iv sticks.

duffy
06-16-2005, 03:13 PM
Cami! where did you find the little pic of dr. mac in jail? Is there a link? Please, please, please? I love it!

beesy
06-17-2005, 01:29 AM
Hey, Beesy, have you seen Part IV of the Leeza Show on Darlie's website? Darin was discussing why an intruder would want to rape Darlie, and he blurts out that she has "36 triple Ds". There was a dead silence in the studio & Leeza was literally speechless for several seconds.

I'll bet Sarilda and Darlie Kee wanted to pimp slap him after that little faux pas. :D

P.S. You shorted Darlie one D, but redeemed yourself by giving her two extra inches. Don't worry, Darin isn't angry with you. He's a very understanding guy. :rolleyes:

Oh dear shorted her 1 D but gave her an inch. Poor Darlie:boohoo: I have never seen that Leeza show, but it sounds like I should. I'll check it out

beesy
06-17-2005, 01:44 AM
Haha! And they left that in on Darlie's defense website? I'll have to watch that. But why were her boobs being discussed in the ER? I have yet to read a book on this case.
Yes, Darin discussed her large breasts in the ER to Detective Frosch. This can be found in Patricia Springer's Flesh and Blood Chapter 5, page 51. He mentions her breast size, actually in the book it says they are 38DD
Then on page 52 to the same Detective, Darin asks if he's seen his beautiful wife and her big breasts. This was in the ER family waiting room as he was being questioned:loser:

beesy
06-17-2005, 01:54 AM
Do they also call it lividity if it's NOT on a corpse? I believe its only called lividity on a corpse. Its a good tool to use for how long the body has been in that position etc. I think its called blood settling if the person is still alive when it happens.

beesy
06-17-2005, 02:02 AM
My own personal opinion on the bruising on her hands is they are from the iv needle. I sure remember my hands being bruised up like that from iv sticks

When I 1st saw those bruises I thought they might have been self inflected or Darin inflected. The more I've thought on it, the more I believe its from IV's and needles. In the pix, she is covered with tubes. I bruise up and down my arm when I get blood drawn.

beesy
06-17-2005, 02:13 AM
Haha! And they left that in on Darlie's defense website? I'll have to watch that. But why were her boobs being discussed in the ER? I have yet to read a book on this case.
Just noticed you asked WHY her boobs were discussed at the ER. Reason: its Darin and Darlie is his Trophy Wife and we all know they are just white trash who made good for a little while at least

Dani_T
06-17-2005, 03:18 AM
Just noticed you asked WHY her boobs were discussed at the ER. Reason: its Darin and Darlie is his Trophy Wife and we all know they are just white trash who made good for a little while at least

That's pretty harsh isn't it?

Goody
06-17-2005, 12:56 PM
Just noticed you asked WHY her boobs were discussed at the ER. Reason: its Darin and Darlie is his Trophy Wife and we all know they are just white trash who made good for a little while at least
I wouldn't call them white trash. Maybe blue collar who made good for a while is a little more fair.

Jeana (DP)
06-17-2005, 01:31 PM
I wouldn't call them white trash. Maybe blue collar who made good for a while is a little more fair.


I think they had their white trash moments.

cami
06-17-2005, 02:51 PM
Cami! where did you find the little pic of dr. mac in jail? Is there a link? Please, please, please? I love it!

I got that from Bunny, she is the marvelous wizard who put all those documents on Chris M's website and helped her get the site set up. Have you ever seen her 3d of Mac's apt or her fly and walk through views of the apt? She's a wonder to behold that Bunny. She made those Mac graphics. You can take mine if you want. Do you know how to copy it off mine? If not pm me and I will tell you or give you the link.

I have four more graphics so I am ready to change mine up LOL

Goody
06-17-2005, 06:56 PM
I think they had their white trash moments.
I don't remember seeing anything that made them "white trash." I guess it might depend on what your definition of "white trash" is though. I think it is drugged out, too lazy to work (drunk or sober) ne'er-do-wells who tend to live in a trashy environment. I don't necessarily think a buxom blonde with big hair, hooped ear rings, and red lipstick (chomping on gum) is "white trash." Hard to place that image at the country club, although some country clubs probably have their share of such members. If Darlie hadn't gotten herself locked up, she might have made a good contestant for the new reality show, I Want To Be A Hilton. LOL!

beesy
06-17-2005, 07:30 PM
That's pretty harsh isn't it? Hey I only call it like I see it. I'm not from TX. I don't think their look would fly here. They'd be laughed at, as wanna-be's, new money. Maybe around Dallas TX thats considered classy. Her Aunt wore stirrup pants to court! You can take the girl out of redneckville, but you can't take the redneck out of the girl
In fact one of the prosecutors called her family white trash. So no, I dont find it harsh. They might as well have had signs on their heads "WHITE TRASH ALERT":twocents:

beesy
06-17-2005, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't call them white trash. Maybe blue collar who made good for a while is a little more fair.
what do you consider the difference between white trash and blue collar? Where I live, you don't have to live in a pig pen to be considered white trash. It's more the attitude and the way they dress:twocents:

beesy
06-17-2005, 07:38 PM
I think they had their white trash moments.

Thank you!

Goody
06-17-2005, 08:10 PM
what do you consider the difference between white trash and blue collar? Where I live, you don't have to live in a pig pen to be considered white trash. It's more the attitude and the way they dress:twocents:
What do you mean by the way they dress? Poor and shabby or flashy and sexy?

Kaly
06-18-2005, 12:56 AM
I think Darlie must be one of those very-easy bruisers or has thin, translucent skin under her arms to have the blood settling show up that strong. (I'm not an easy bruiser and my skin is so tough they can't get an IV in my hands). I guess sometimes being thin-skinned on the outside can serve you well. Thin skin is only skin-deep though. She has to be thick-skinned on the inside to lie like that.:truce:

duffy
06-18-2005, 03:09 AM
I think they had their white trash moments.
Your dry one-liners crack me up!

beesy
06-18-2005, 06:58 PM
What do you mean by the way they dress? Poor and shabby or flashy and sexy? I certainly didn't mean to cause any type of slang debate. Yes, white trash is considered, around here that is, flashy clothes, BIG bleached hair, heavy makup and wearing sexy clothes at inappropriate (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=inappropriate) times, i.e. a mother wearing a dress which is very low cut to the viewing of her murdered children. Most think more of themselves than others do and try, but in the end, cannot fit into the Old Money. It matters not from whence you came, it's how you act when you get there :twocents:
Dressing poor and shabby is what we call 'trailer trash", but let's not start on that

Mary456
06-19-2005, 01:40 AM
When I 1st saw those bruises I thought they might have been self inflected or Darin inflected. The more I've thought on it, the more I believe its from IV's and needles. In the pix, she is covered with tubes. I bruise up and down my arm when I get blood drawn.

Beezy, not trying to be a know-it-all, but the bruises on her left arm were confined to her wrist, where the arterial line was inserted. You can even see the tiny hole where the IV was inserted. When the photos were taken on 6/10, those bruises were already turning yellow/green, which is the expected color after four days.

Goody doesn't believe me, but those bruises on her left arm were manufactured by CWB (just as he manufactured the nonexistent bootprint). There is no testimony to support the purple bruises on her left arm that we see in MTJD or on Darlie's website. Her right arm? Yes, those bruises were purple, consistent with blunt trauma inflicted within 24 hours (probably) and 48 hours at the latest. That means the bruises weren't the result of blunt trauma on 6/6/96.

But her left arm, ahhh, don't be fooled. Testimony supported that the slight yellow/green bruising on her left wrist was the result of the IV, nothing more and nothing less.

Mary456
06-19-2005, 01:55 AM
That's pretty harsh isn't it?

Maybe it is, but stabbing your two little boys to death, and then exhuming their bodies for fingerprints, and then blasting their butchered bodies all over the media to save your skin...well, you can understand why some people feel a little "harsh" toward Darlie, Darin, and the people who defend them.

Not having a go at you, Dani :) I know what you meant.

beesy
06-19-2005, 02:47 PM
QUOTE=Mary456]
Goody doesn't believe me, but those bruises on her left arm were manufactured by CWB (just as he manufactured the nonexistent bootprint). There is no testimony to support the purple bruises on her left arm that we see in MTJD or on Darlie's website. Her right arm? Yes, those bruises were purple, consistent with blunt trauma inflicted within 24 hours (probably) and 48 hours at the latest. That means the bruises weren't the result of blunt trauma on 6/6/96.
Oh I know that fool messed with alot of the pix. I think he manipulated the autopsy photos also. He tried, in his poorly written and edited prose to describe the wounds and said they were at different slants, different types of cuts and so on. And could those bootprints be any faker, please! He also debated 1 picture that the prosecution said was her footprint. He claims the toe prints were blood droplets. However if you look at the police photos of her footprints, you can see where 1 toe doesn't make as dark of a print as the others, just like the one in the photo that fool protests. :loser:

But her left arm, ahhh, don't be fooled. Testimony supported that the slight yellow/green bruising on her left wrist was the result of the IV, nothing more and nothing less. ok, so you agree with my original thoughts. That the horrible bruises on her right arm were self-inflected or Darin-inflected blunt trauma, after getting out of the hospital.
And I was thinking that the other bruises were caused by IV's and needles. :woohoo:

Goody
06-19-2005, 03:14 PM
I certainly didn't mean to cause any type of slang debate. Yes, white trash is considered, around here that is, flashy clothes, BIG bleached hair, heavy makup and wearing sexy clothes at inappropriate (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=inappropriate) times, i.e. a mother wearing a dress which is very low cut to the viewing of her murdered children. Most think more of themselves than others do and try, but in the end, cannot fit into the Old Money. It matters not from whence you came, it's how you act when you get there :twocents:
Dressing poor and shabby is what we call 'trailer trash", but let's not start on that

No offense but I think dressing poor and shabby should not mean anything at all except that a person is poor. I know just as many rich low lifes as I do poor ones, and few of them live in trailers. Beisdes when you have double-d's or triple, almost anything you put on is going to be low cut unless it is a turtle neck. I don't like labels too much.

Goody
06-19-2005, 03:16 PM
Goody doesn't believe me, but those bruises on her left arm were manufactured by CWB (just as he manufactured the nonexistent bootprint). There is no testimony to support the purple bruises on her left arm that we see in MTJD or on Darlie's website. Her right arm? Yes, those bruises were purple, consistent with blunt trauma inflicted within 24 hours (probably) and 48 hours at the latest. That means the bruises weren't the result of blunt trauma on 6/6/96.

But her left arm, ahhh, don't be fooled. Testimony supported that the slight yellow/green bruising on her left wrist was the result of the IV, nothing more and nothing less.
It is not so much that Goody doesn't believe you. She just hasn't taken the time to really study the matter since she got her new eyes. Plus my book has been lost for about a year now. grrrrrr.....

I think you have an interesting point though that more than one thing might have been going on regarding the bruising.

beesy
06-20-2005, 12:09 AM
No offense but I think dressing poor and shabby should not mean anything at all except that a person is poor. I know just as many rich low lifes as I do poor ones, and few of them live in trailers. Beisdes when you have double-d's or triple, almost anything you put on is going to be low cut unless it is a turtle neck. I don't like labels too much.
No offense taken, but I think it's time we move on from this slang debate. Shall we?:rolleyes:

Mary456
06-20-2005, 06:58 PM
Oh I know that fool messed with alot of the pix. I think he manipulated the autopsy photos also. :loser:

[b]ok, so you agree with my original thoughts. That the horrible bruises on her right arm were self-inflected or Darin-inflected blunt trauma, after getting out of the hospital.
And I was thinking that the other bruises were caused by IV's and needles. :woohoo:

It's nice to meet someone who despises CWB as much as I do, lol! That dirty rat touched up a lot of those photos to suit his own agenda.


Yep, and if you watch tricky Chris closely in Part IV of the Leeza show, he points to his left arm and says, "The bruises go from here (wrist) all the way up" as he sweeps his hand up to the elbow. Bullpoopy. In that same show, Darin says the bruises on Darlie's right arm went all the way up into her breast area. Double bullpoopy. They're always exaggerating her injuries, hoping no one will notice.

beesy
06-22-2005, 01:46 AM
It's nice to meet someone who despises CWB as much as I do, lol! That dirty rat touched up a lot of those photos to suit his own agenda.[QUOTE] Ok, I watched I think it was Part I of the Leeza show and Leeza said something to Darin about the wounds on Devon. She said that one of Devon's wounds was so hard that it went thru his body and into the carpet. Darin nodded and agreed with this. Crazy Chris makes a big point in his book on page 298 that there is not an exit wound on Devon's back. The pic he shows does not have one, so why did Darin agree with Leeza that the knife went all the way thru his body? Did it or not? This is one of the pix I suspect CC to have tampered with.

Dani_T
06-22-2005, 03:56 AM
Cause Darin didn't know what he was talking about.

I can't help feeling that if you read the website of the family that none of them know this case as well as some people who are not even connected to it. It's a pity really.

Mary456
06-22-2005, 11:01 PM
[ Ok, I watched I think it was Part I of the Leeza show and Leeza said something to Darin about the wounds on Devon. She said that one of Devon's wounds was so hard that it went thru his body and into the carpet. Darin nodded and agreed with this.

I noticed that, too, and the only thing I can figure is that it's another one of Darin's exaggerations. What better way to inflame the public against the "murderous intruder" than to make Devon's wounds even worse than they actually were?

[ Crazy Chris makes a big point in his book on page 298 that there is not an exit wound on Devon's back. The pic he shows does not have one, so why did Darin agree with Leeza that the knife went all the way thru his body? Did it or not? This is one of the pix I suspect CC to have tampered with.

Actually, I think that's one of the very few pix he didn't tamper with!The knife didn't exit Devon's back and go into the carpet. It was just a rumor which CC gleefully attributed to the police, although there was no testimony to support his claim. That semi-literate, editor-challenged fruitcake will stop at nothing to bash LE.

beesy
06-23-2005, 12:41 AM
Actually, I think that's one of the very few pix he didn't tamper with!The knife didn't exit Devon's back and go into the carpet. It was just a rumor which CC gleefully attributed to the police, although there was no testimony to support his claim. That semi-literate, editor-challenged fruitcake will stop at nothing to bash LE
I re-read the autopsy report on Devon and saw that there aren't any exit wounds listed. What do you make of the cut on his buttocks? Was he lifting his legs to fight with the killer? The juror on the Leeza show said they thought he was and that he caused some of the bruises on her arms. Seems like we, thru all of our brainstorming, have decided those arm bruises didn't come from that night. But that doesn't answer the question about the cut.

beesy
06-23-2005, 01:01 AM
Cause Darin didn't know what he was talking about.[QUOTE]
Goody: remember my doofus comment?

beesy
06-23-2005, 01:05 AM
Actually, I think that's one of the very few pix he didn't tamper with!The knife didn't exit Devon's back and go into the carpet. It was just a rumor which CC gleefully attributed to the police, although there was no testimony to support his claim. That semi-literate, editor-challenged fruitcake will stop at nothing to bash LE.
Which pix do you think he messed with? I thought it was the autopsy pix based on what'd I'd heard about the penetrating wound, which is wrong. I was thinking he didn't want people to remember that wound because a stab that violent usually indicates passion, not some random murder.

Cowgirl
06-23-2005, 10:05 AM
Hi, newbie here,
I too believe Darlie did it, but what bothers me is how she had the nerve to cut her throat. How did she know she wouldn't hit the caratoid artery? She doesnt strike me as having much medical knowledge. The arm, no problem, but the throat? Pictures show a small 'hesitation' cut above the deeper one on her arm. Maybe she was trying to kill herself too, then when she didnt hit the artery decided that was a bad idea? :chicken: Too ouchy! Remember I am a newbie, so don't fuss if this has been discussed a million times already:o
beesyActually, it is the nature of her injuries that makes her look so guilty to me. According to her, some nut entered her home through a window after cutting a screen with a knife found in the kitchen butcher block, then picked up another knife and violently plunged the knife into the bodies of her boys, repeatedly, and then when she woke up and got up, he slashed her throat but the depth of the slash is constant -- not far deeper at the beginning or the end. Also, she sustained no injuries that could not have been done by her.

As hard as it is for me to find her motive in this, it is harder to find one for an intruder. He didn't disturb the dust on the window sill. He didn't steal anything but a sock. If her story had been that he grabbed her and held the knife to her throat, it would have been more believable, frankly. She was careful not to cut too deep, even though it doesn't take a lot to cut a vital artery in one's neck. They had tiny insurance policies on the kids, so it was not a hired killer. By her story, how could she continue to sleep in that house a single night after that? A madman cut a screen, plunged a kitchen knife deep into her kids, took one non-lethal slash at her, then scratched her forearm with the knife... and left, taking nothing but a sock. The Rowlett neighborhood she lived in has never seen this mad man again... so where did he go? That story is just absurd. I just wonder why she did it.

So what you end up with is no motive for either story and a crime scene that just does not match her story. I am left to come to one conclusion. She is just evil.

Cowgirl
06-23-2005, 10:39 AM
what do you consider the difference between white trash and blue collar? Where I live, you don't have to live in a pig pen to be considered white trash. It's more the attitude and the way they dress:twocents:This is the wrong comparison. White collar and blue collar indicate the type of work one does with white collar being people who wear a tie to work and blue collar refers to people who don't. White trash refers to a mind set, often called trailer trash as well as white trash and those people often don't work at all!

They bought a home they could not afford in an upper middle class neighborhood, but Darlie is trailer trash, through and through. They did not belong there. Look at the way she decorated that house. It could not have been more tacky. Even the fountain in the yard was too big for the yard it is in. Then look at her. Big bleached hair, too much makeup, too much jewelry, oversized boob job. There are lots of women who look like that but they don't murder their kids. Lots of women want to be something they are not and lots of them have bad taste. But that does not make them evil.

The lovely couple met at a Sizzler steak house. Do you know what that is? If you do, I don't need to explain. Discount hot meat, cafeteria style. Darin said it was love at first sight. What does that tell you? It tells you his emotions are based on appearance and he is attracted to tacky women. I guess a silly string party at the grave is not so inappropriate to people like them. But Darin was in the computer business, usually associated with white collar. So they were crossing over the white collar/blue collar lines and were anxious to move on up from the trailer park. Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it just shows.

Blue collar, white collar, trailer trash or class -- none of it explains the evil in Darlie. Or the delusion or collusion of her husband.

beesy
06-23-2005, 09:27 PM
This is the wrong comparison. White collar and blue collar indicate the type of work one does with white collar being people who wear a tie to work and blue collar refers to people who don't. White trash refers to a mind set, often called trailer trash as well as white trash and those people often don't work at all!

They bought a home they could not afford in an upper middle class neighborhood, but Darlie is trailer trash, through and through. They did not belong there. Look at the way she decorated that house. It could not have been more tacky. Even the fountain in the yard was too big for the yard it is in. Then look at her. Big bleached hair, too much makeup, too much jewelry, oversized boob job. There are lots of women who look like that but they don't murder their kids. Lots of women want to be something they are not and lots of them have bad taste. But that does not make them evil.

The lovely couple met at a Sizzler steak house. Do you know what that is? If you do, I don't need to explain. Discount hot meat, cafeteria style. Darin said it was love at first sight. What does that tell you? It tells you his emotions are based on appearance and he is attracted to tacky women. I guess a silly string party at the grave is not so inappropriate to people like them. But Darin was in the computer business, usually associated with white collar. So they were crossing over the white collar/blue collar lines and were anxious to move on up from the trailer park. Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it just shows.

Blue collar, white collar, trailer trash or class -- none of it explains the evil in Darlie. Or the delusion or collusion of her husband. I never compared blue collar to white trash, Goody was debating the slang with me. I know white collar is considered "office worker" and blue collar the "worker bees" and no Goody, that is not a put-down. My husband is blue collar so calm down. I also mentioned her tacky hair, and while I did not mention her tacky house, I certainly thought it, and everything else you said. I dropped it when I realized Goody was getting all worked up. Yes, I know what Sizzler is. I think I've actually eaten at 1 before. :blushing:

My original white trash post
Hey I only call it like I see it. I'm not from TX. I don't think their look would fly here. They'd be laughed at, as wanna-be's, new money. Maybe around Dallas TX thats considered classy. Her Aunt wore stirrup pants to court! You can take the girl out of redneckville, but you can't take the redneck out of the girl
In fact one of the prosecutors called her family white trash. So no, I dont find it harsh. They might as well have had signs on their heads "WHITE TRASH ALERT":twocents:
__________________

Mary456
06-24-2005, 12:56 AM
I never compared blue collar to white trash, Goody was debating the slang with me. I know white collar is considered "office worker" and blue collar the "worker bees" and no Goody, that is not a put-down. My husband is blue collar so calm down. I also mentioned her tacky hair, and while I did not mention her tacky house, I certainly thought it, and everything else you said. I dropped it when I realized Goody was getting all worked up. Yes, I know what Sizzler is. I think I've actually eaten at 1 before. :blushing:

My original white trash post
Hey I only call it like I see it. I'm not from TX. I don't think their look would fly here. They'd be laughed at, as wanna-be's, new money. Maybe around Dallas TX thats considered classy. Her Aunt wore stirrup pants to court! You can take the girl out of redneckville, but you can't take the redneck out of the girl
In fact one of the prosecutors called her family white trash. So no, I dont find it harsh. They might as well have had signs on their heads "WHITE TRASH ALERT":twocents:
__________________

I think Goody just isn't fond of labels, and we'd probably have a better world without them. When we stereotype people, we all lose.

Which is not to say I haven't privately thought "trailer trash" at least a thousand times, lol!! When the prosecution spokesperson (can't remember his name) called the Routiers trailer trash, it was because they wouldn't let him speak...they kept interrupting, yelling, accusing. The guy couldn't get a word in edgewise, and finally lost his temper. I'm sure he regretted the words the minute they slipped off his tongue. The family pulled the same thing when Darlie was found guilty. They screamed out in the courtroom that Greg Davis was a "liar" and a "murderer".

Not exactly classy behavior. A more reserved, dignified approach would have served them better, imo.

beesy
06-24-2005, 01:42 AM
I think Goody just isn't fond of labels, and we'd probably have a better world without them. When we stereotype people, we all lose.

Which is not to say I haven't privately thought "trailer trash" at least a thousand times, lol!! When the prosecution spokesperson (can't remember his name) called the Routiers trailer trash, it was because they wouldn't let him speak...they kept interrupting, yelling, accusing. The guy couldn't get a word in edgewise, and finally lost his temper. I'm sure he regretted the words the minute they slipped off his tongue. The family pulled the same thing when Darlie was found guilty. They screamed out in the courtroom that Greg Davis was a "liar" and a "murderer".

Not exactly classy behavior. A more reserved, dignified approach would have served them better, imo. Yes, I agree, name calling isn't nice, but either is murdering your children. Her family acted awful. Their inappropriate behavior created more of a circus atmosphere than the actual case. I always wonder why it took so long for the spokesperson to say that. However, that remark is one more thing her family and supporters go on about and should not have been said. What I find interesting is Darin and Darlie did not belong to a church, but suddenly her family is quoting scripture and speaking in tongues. They say there is a higher birth rate in prison than in the outside world, Born Again Christians.

Mary456
06-24-2005, 01:49 AM
Which pix do you think he messed with? I thought it was the autopsy pix based on what'd I'd heard about the penetrating wound, which is wrong. I was thinking he didn't want people to remember that wound because a stab that violent usually indicates passion, not some random murder.

Well, Miss Beesy, I think CWB definitely messed with the photos of Darlie's hands (and left wrist, which we've already discussed). There's no testimony - from either side - that supports bruises on the tops of Darlie's hands, but the photos in his book (and on Justice for Darlie) show dark purple bruises on the tops of both hands.

I also think he altered the photo on page 399 which shows a scratch on her chin. It's hard to believe that all those nurses and doctors would miss something so obvious, especially since they believed at that point that she was a victim of a knife-wielding intruder. They noted the paper cuts on her fingers, but ignored a cut on her face? Not likely.

Oh, and defense exhibit 92 (pg. 432) really backfired on Chris Brown. There we see "scratch marks from fingernails" in the photo on 6/10 but, amazingly, there's no corresponding scratch marks in defense exhibit 91 taken at the hospital. The Blustering Boobhead strikes (out) again!

beesy
06-24-2005, 01:50 AM
I think Goody just isn't fond of labels, and we'd probably have a better world without them. When we stereotype people, we all lose. :truce: No more labeling from me, promise :angel:

beesy
06-24-2005, 02:03 AM
Well, Miss Beesy, I think CWB definitely messed with the photos of Darlie's hands (and left wrist, which we've already discussed). There's no testimony - from either side - that supports bruises on the tops of Darlie's hands, but the photos in his book (and on Justice for Darlie) show dark purple bruises on the tops of both hands.

I also think he altered the photo on page 399 which shows a scratch on her chin. It's hard to believe that all those nurses and doctors would miss something so obvious, especially since they believed at that point that she was a victim of a knife-wielding intruder. They noted the paper cuts on her fingers, but ignored a cut on her face? Not likely.

Oh, and defense exhibit 92 (pg. 432) really backfired on Chris Brown. There we see "scratch marks from fingernails" in the photo on 6/10 but, amazingly, there's no corresponding scratch marks in defense exhibit 91 taken at the hospital. The Blustering Boobhead strikes (out) again!
Sounds reasonable. Another thing which bothers me is he doesn't credit any of the pix. He only says that someone(who again?) let him take pix of the originals. Very easy to manipulate pix of pix, seems to me. Boobhead, now that's a good one :laugh:

Mary456
06-24-2005, 02:11 AM
Yes, I agree, name calling isn't nice, but either is murdering your children. Her family acted awful. Their inappropriate behavior created more of a circus atmosphere than the actual case. I always wonder why it took so long for the spokesperson to say that. However, that remark is one more thing her family and supporters go on about and should not have been said. What I find interesting is Darin and Darlie did not belong to a church, but suddenly her family is quoting scripture and speaking in tongues. They say there is a higher birth rate in prison than in the outside world, Born Again Christians.

Hahahaaa, I love it!!! Yes, that family certainly speaks with forked tongue, don't they. Darlie was a big supporter of the death penalty until she found herself in the hot seat, and now she's completely against it. Don't know why, because she's always claiming that she can't wait to be with her boys again.

Somehow I don't think they'd feel the same way. I picture the two of them in the welcoming committee at the pearly gates. Devon says to Damon, "Eeee gads, it's Mommy! Run for your life!"

Jeana (DP)
06-24-2005, 10:07 AM
Hahahaaa, I love it!!! Yes, that family certainly speaks with forked tongue, don't they. Darlie was a big supporter of the death penalty until she found herself in the hot seat, and now she's completely against it. Don't know why, because she's always claiming that she can't wait to be with her boys again.

Somehow I don't think they'd feel the same way. I picture the two of them in the welcoming committee at the pearly gates. Devon says to Damon, "Eeee gads, it's Mommy! Run for your life!"


I don't think they'll be seeing her up there.

beesy
06-24-2005, 08:26 PM
[

Somehow I don't think they'd feel the same way. I picture the two of them in the welcoming committee at the pearly gates. Devon says to Damon, "Eeee gads, it's Mommy! Run for your life!" :laugh: Ok, that's really funny

Goody
06-24-2005, 10:19 PM
I picture the two of them in the welcoming committee at the pearly gates. Devon says to Damon, "Eeee gads, it's Mommy! Run for your life!"
aaaahahahahahah! Now that is tacky, funny but definitely tacky. hahahaha!

Goody
06-24-2005, 10:28 PM
[QUOTE]

Goody: remember my doofus comment?
Yes, I do, but he is not as much of a dufus as he is a bad liar with a terrible memory. Actually though I have to admit he does have some dufus moments, so maybe he is just a man of many faces. LOL! One thing I do think he is is good at flying under the radar, and the fact that no evidence points to him shows that. He was either smart enough to protect his downside accurately or just plain lucky. Whichever it was, it seemed to serve him well.

Goody
06-24-2005, 10:53 PM
This is the wrong comparison. White collar and blue collar indicate the type of work one does with white collar being people who wear a tie to work and blue collar refers to people who don't. White trash refers to a mind set, often called trailer trash as well as white trash and those people often don't work at all!.
I didn't realize that about people who live in trailers. They don't work, eh? That would make them welfare bums, too, wouldn't it?

They bought a home they could not afford in an upper middle class neighborhood, but Darlie is trailer trash, through and through. They did not belong there. Look at the way she decorated that house. It could not have been more tacky. Even the fountain in the yard was too big for the yard it is in. Then look at her. Big bleached hair, too much makeup, too much jewelry, oversized boob job.

Are you talking about Darlie Routier or Dolly Parton?

[QUOTE=Cowgirl] The lovely couple met at a Sizzler steak house. Do you know what that is? If you do, I don't need to explain. Discount hot meat, cafeteria style. Darin said it was love at first sight. What does that tell you? It tells you his emotions are based on appearance and he is attracted to tacky women. I guess a silly string party at the grave is not so inappropriate to people like them. But Darin was in the computer business, usually associated with white collar. So they were crossing over the white collar/blue collar lines and were anxious to move on up from the trailer park. Nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it just shows..
Sorry but I think you are really being unfair to people who shouldn't have to apologize for being "low rent". Do you know anyone who lives in a trailer who isn't "white trash" or do you just like lumping folks into groups and then putting down the whole group? I thought we saw enough of that in Mississippi back in the 50's. Calling them "white trash" is about as just as calling a woman a "whore" because she has a baby out of wedlock. <shudder>

As for whether Darin's business was blue collar or white collar, I am not sure what it would be labeled as today. They were testing circuit boards as I understand it and maybe making them in at least a semi assembly line atmosphere. Not hardly computer programming. Nobody wore a tie to work that I have heard of.

But to call them white trash, I think is unfair because it categorizes all big boobed, flashy blondes who fall in love at the Sizzler as cheap and without value. People don't have to have something to contribute to the country club to be worthy. As my old law professor used to say, "All life has value."

Don't get me wrong. I have called Darlie "Boom Boom Routier" but that offends just her. It doesn't pull a bunch of innocent people into it who didn't stab their children to death just because they happen to eat at Sizzler or live in a trailer or like flashy clothes.

Goody
06-24-2005, 10:58 PM
As hard as it is for me to find her motive in this, it is harder to find one for an intruder. He didn't disturb the dust on the window sill. He didn't steal anything but a sock. If her story had been that he grabbed her and held the knife to her throat, it would have been more believable, frankly. She was careful not to cut too deep, even though it doesn't take a lot to cut a vital artery in one's neck. They had tiny insurance policies on the kids, so it was not a hired killer. By her story, how could she continue to sleep in that house a single night after that? A madman cut a screen, plunged a kitchen knife deep into her kids, took one non-lethal slash at her, then scratched her forearm with the knife... and left, taking nothing but a sock. The Rowlett neighborhood she lived in has never seen this mad man again... so where did he go? That story is just absurd. I just wonder why she did it.

So what you end up with is no motive for either story and a crime scene that just does not match her story. I am left to come to one conclusion. She is just evil.
I don't know about the evil part, but the rest is a pretty accurate depiction. Her motive is what stumps most people. I think it has to be either something we have not heard of before or she just lost it for some reason and killed Devon, then had to do everything else to cover it up, including killing Damon. That could certainly make her evil, but I tend to think it probably more accurately falls into "selfish".

Goody
06-24-2005, 11:05 PM
Yes, I agree, name calling isn't nice, but either is murdering your children. Her family acted awful. Their inappropriate behavior created more of a circus atmosphere than the actual case. I always wonder why it took so long for the spokesperson to say that. However, that remark is one more thing her family and supporters go on about and should not have been said. What I find interesting is Darin and Darlie did not belong to a church, but suddenly her family is quoting scripture and speaking in tongues. They say there is a higher birth rate in prison than in the outside world, Born Again Christians.
I think Sarilda, Darin's mother, always belonged to a church, and she is the one who quotes scripture. I might point out though that anyone who can pick up a book and read it can quote scripture. That being said, I agree that the family turned the trial into a circus event with their carrying on and public displays. They probably hurt Darlie more than helped her.

beesy
06-25-2005, 12:48 AM
Yes, I do, but he is not as much of a dufus as he is a bad liar with a terrible memory. Actually though I have to admit he does have some dufus moments, so maybe he is just a man of many faces. LOL! One thing I do think he is is good at flying under the radar, and the fact that no evidence points to him shows that. He was either smart enough to protect his downside accurately or just plain lucky. Whichever it was, it seemed to serve him well. Is it dufus? I was thinking doofus.

beesy
06-25-2005, 12:56 AM
But to call them white trash, I think is unfair because it categorizes all big boobed, flashy blondes who fall in love at the Sizzler as cheap and without value. People don't have to have something to contribute to the country club to be worthy. As my old law professor used to say, "All life has value."
Don't get me wrong. I have called Darlie "Boom Boom Routier" but that offends just her. It doesn't pull a bunch of innocent people into it who didn't stab their children to death just because they happen to eat at Sizzler or live in a trailer or like flashy clothes.

Ok let me just say this one thing. Apparently to call someone "white trash" is more offensive to others than it is to me. I really didn't think it was any stronger than calling Darin a doofus. I'm sorry I brought it up, it obviously rubs others the wrong way. Now can we play nice? :innocent:

Mary456
06-25-2005, 01:07 AM
Is it dufus? I was thinking doofus.

Doesn't matter. If it begins with "d", all is well with the world :doh:

sue1017
06-27-2005, 03:57 PM
Hi new to the site! I have some questions about this case and the wounds to both her sons and Darlie.

Isn't there a way to tell if the person that was administering the blows (i.e. the knife in this case) was left handed or right? Also, Isn't there something that determines if the wound was done overhand or underhand? The reason for these questions is that if the wounds inflicted on her children were the same type (for example overhanded, right hand) as her wounds. Wouldn't it be hard to assume she did it herself if her wounds were similiar in style. Mostly the one on her forearm.

BTW, I do think she is guilty just wanted to throw a different light on the subject. And see what others think.

Cowgirl
06-27-2005, 04:27 PM
Hi new to the site! I have some questions about this case and the wounds to both her sons and Darlie.

Isn't there a way to tell if the person that was administering the blows (i.e. the knife in this case) was left handed or right? Also, Isn't there something that determines if the wound was done overhand or underhand? The reason for these questions is that if the wounds inflicted on her children were the same type (for example overhanded, right hand) as her wounds. Wouldn't it be hard to assume she did it herself if her wounds were similiar in style. Mostly the one on her forearm.

BTW, I do think she is guilty just wanted to throw a different light on the subject. And see what others think.Certainly, it can be ascertained if wounds on another person are done underhand or overhand. But on one's self, well, all you need to do, particularly with your arm, is try it yourself. Crook your elbow and put your hand up near your face and a defensive wound could be inflicted on your forearm, but drop your arm and the same defensive wound could be upside down from the other position.

To me, it is totally irrelevant whether the attacks were overhand or underhand. What matters is the type of assaults. Both boys were attacked with deep thrusting knife plunges, assuring no one could survive such an assault. Particularly when they are in someone's back, you know the victim was not coming at that assailant. So after a frenzied attack of two boys, plunging a knife in deep body thrusts over and over, the assailant, whether confronted or not, merely scratched the throat of the mother? Not likely. Even a good slash at one's throat is enough to make them bleed to death in no time at all, much less multiple stab wounds. The wound on her throat was very shallow from start to finish, with a hesitation mark to it.

In order for that scenario to be true, the killer would be stabbing, stabbing, stabbing, over and over, whether underhand or overhand, and then when confronted by Darlie, reposition the knife in his hand to slash at her? Not very likely! If her story had been that he somehow grabbed her from behind and held the knife to her throat, that might explain how her wound happened, but that was not her story.

Cowgirl
06-27-2005, 04:48 PM
I didn't realize that about people who live in trailers. They don't work, eh? That would make them welfare bums, too, wouldn't it?


Sorry but I think you are really being unfair to people who shouldn't have to apologize for being "low rent". Do you know anyone who lives in a trailer who isn't "white trash" or do you just like lumping folks into groups and then putting down the whole group? I thought we saw enough of that in Mississippi back in the 50's. Calling them "white trash" is about as just as calling a woman a "whore" because she has a baby out of wedlock. <shudder>

As for whether Darin's business was blue collar or white collar, I am not sure what it would be labeled as today. They were testing circuit boards as I understand it and maybe making them in at least a semi assembly line atmosphere. Not hardly computer programming. Nobody wore a tie to work that I have heard of.

But to call them white trash, I think is unfair because it categorizes all big boobed, flashy blondes who fall in love at the Sizzler as cheap and without value. People don't have to have something to contribute to the country club to be worthy. As my old law professor used to say, "All life has value."

Don't get me wrong. I have called Darlie "Boom Boom Routier" but that offends just her. It doesn't pull a bunch of innocent people into it who didn't stab their children to death just because they happen to eat at Sizzler or live in a trailer or like flashy clothes.
If you check my post, I was merely correcting the incorrect analogy. White trash is not the opposite of blue collar, and that was all I was saying.

I would call them social climbers myself. And if she could have avoided the financial problems she had, perhaps she would not have felt the need to murder her children. It appears they were living beyond their means. I have no idea where she grew up. Her mother appears to dress more tastefully than she does. And her house was full of gaudy junk. That is a fact, not a judgment. And my opinion about people who live in trailers is irrelevant, so I won't answer your query on that. Here in tornado alley, it is dangerous, in my estimation. But fake boobed bleached blondes who wear too much makeup and chew gum are the definition of white trash, in my opinion. Think of me what you like.

:laugh: Now the part about unwed mothers being whores...where the heck did that come from? Certainly not my post!

sue1017
06-27-2005, 05:32 PM
Cowgirl thanks for the reply. It makes sense now that you mention a person switching position of the knife after doing it numerous times the same way on 2 other victims. Seems unlikely. I guess I was wondering if it could be told from her forearm wound if the person was doing it the same way. I am still under the impression that she is guilty as charged as should receive what she deserves.

Mary456
06-27-2005, 07:40 PM
Cowgirl thanks for the reply. It makes sense now that you mention a person switching position of the knife after doing it numerous times the same way on 2 other victims. Seems unlikely. I guess I was wondering if it could be told from her forearm wound if the person was doing it the same way. I am still under the impression that she is guilty as charged as should receive what she deserves.

The ME who examined Darlie's right arm described it as an incised cut rather than a stab, and I tend to agree. It was only about 1" deep, but almost 2" long. The blade of the butcher knife doesn't approach 2" in width until quite a distance from the tip (at least that's what it looks like to me). It's such a clean cut...just doesn't look like a stab wound you'd get from fighting an intruder. Plus, the hesitation wound above it suggest self inflicted.

I'm in the minority on this, though, mainly because Darlie would have used her non-dominant hand to inflict the wound. No one, me included, can figure out why she'd do that. Most people think she cut it accidentally while stabbing Devon, but I can't picture that, either. How could she accidentally cut her right arm when she was holding the knife in her right hand? This aspect of the case really confounds me. Thoughts, anyone?

sue1017
06-27-2005, 07:49 PM
Mary good points. So all her wounds are same. Slicing not penetrating. Are there any pictures of the wounds before stitching or after they healed? With the stitches it hard to get to that conculsion. Altho the ME would have the best knowledge of her wounds.

beesy
06-27-2005, 09:29 PM
Mary good points. So all her wounds are same. Slicing not penetrating. Are there any pictures of the wounds before stitching or after they healed? With the stitches it hard to get to that conculsion. Altho the ME would have the best knowledge of her wounds. There are no pix of Darlie's wounds before stitching. They were sewn up w/in hours of her arrival at the hospital. Have you seen the pix of the boys? Look at their wounds, then look at hers. There should be no problem reaching Mary's and my conclusion. Just think about it, common sense tells you that an intruder would not switch methods. So that brings up the 2 intruder theory. Isn't it handy how she pulls that out of her butt when people begin talking about the different types of wounds? There was no intruder, therefore, no intruders. With all of the furniture and knick-knacks in that room, it would have been torn to hell with 2 killers moving back and forth between 3 victims. Her neck wound is atypical of a slash by someone else. It's usually done ear to ear, in nearly a straight line. If she were lying down, as she guesses she was, why wouldn't an intruder stab her, why perform a manuever such as that? As Mary mentioned, there is a hesitation nick, then the slash which is at a slant. Then there is another nick on her shoulder, perhaps she recoiled which would make the knife jump, then hit again. Either way, it was not done by someone else, just Darlie.

duffy
06-27-2005, 11:47 PM
The ME who examined Darlie's right arm described it as an incised cut rather than a stab, and I tend to agree. It was only about 1" deep, but almost 2" long. The blade of the butcher knife doesn't approach 2" in width until quite a distance from the tip (at least that's what it looks like to me). It's such a clean cut...just doesn't look like a stab wound you'd get from fighting an intruder. Plus, the hesitation wound above it suggest self inflicted.

I'm in the minority on this, though, mainly because Darlie would have used her non-dominant hand to inflict the wound. No one, me included, can figure out why she'd do that. Most people think she cut it accidentally while stabbing Devon, but I can't picture that, either. How could she accidentally cut her right arm when she was holding the knife in her right hand? This aspect of the case really confounds me. Thoughts, anyone?
Mary456, watching a program on ctv the other night, a case where a neighbor brutally murdered one young woman and did his best to murder the other, one of the professionals they had on there said a person who uses a knife in the commission of a crime will usually get cut.

I think darlie's wounds are self-inflicted and made to look as though she had been attacked as well.

Anyway, just a little FYI there.

beesy
06-28-2005, 12:19 AM
Mary456, watching a program on ctv the other night, a case where a neighbor brutally murdered one young woman and did his best to murder the other, one of the professionals they had on there said a person who uses a knife in the commission of a crime will usually get cut.

I think darlie's wounds are self-inflicted and made to look as though she had been attacked as well.

Anyway, just a little FYI there. Usually they get cut because their hand slips down the handle of the knife onto the blade, Miss Mary and I have discussed that. I think Devon fought with Darlie and this surprised her. She figured he was asleep, he'd just die. Maybe that's how she ended up being cut somewhere. She wasn't prepared for a battle

beesy
06-28-2005, 12:23 AM
The ME who examined Darlie's right arm described it as an incised cut rather than a stab, and I tend to agree. It was only about 1" deep, but almost 2" long. The blade of the butcher knife doesn't approach 2" in width until quite a distance from the tip (at least that's what it looks like to me). It's such a clean cut...just doesn't look like a stab wound you'd get from fighting an intruder. Plus, the hesitation wound above it suggest self inflicted.

I'm in the minority on this, though, mainly because Darlie would have used her non-dominant hand to inflict the wound. No one, me included, can figure out why she'd do that. Most people think she cut it accidentally while stabbing Devon, but I can't picture that, either. How could she accidentally cut her right arm when she was holding the knife in her right hand? This aspect of the case really confounds me. Thoughts, anyone? I think she did get cut somewhere while stabbing Devon. I don't know if it was the arm or what. I hadn't thought about it being on the same arm as her stabbing hand. There appears to be a hesitation wound above the cut on her arm also. The bruises on his feet and the cut on his buttocks means he fought with her, doesn't it?

Mary456
06-28-2005, 12:25 AM
Mary good points. So all her wounds are same. Slicing not penetrating. Are there any pictures of the wounds before stitching or after they healed? With the stitches it hard to get to that conculsion. Altho the ME would have the best knowledge of her wounds.

Hi, Sue. None of Darlie's wounds could be described as penetrating wounds. They were all very shallow compared to the 3-5" deep stabs on the boys, which went into their vital organs. There's very detailed descriptions of her injuries in the transcript. It gives you a much better idea of her injuries than after they were stitched. Look for Dr. Santos and Dr. Dillawn's testimonies, if you want a blow by blow :)

beesy
06-28-2005, 12:26 AM
Yes, I do, but he is not as much of a dufus as he is a bad liar with a terrible memory. Actually though I have to admit he does have some dufus moments, so maybe he is just a man of many faces. LOL! One thing I do think he is is good at flying under the radar, and the fact that no evidence points to him shows that. He was either smart enough to protect his downside accurately or just plain lucky. Whichever it was, it seemed to serve him well. Judge Judy: "You don't have to have a good memory if you tell the truth!"
words of wisdom

Mary456
06-28-2005, 12:52 AM
I think she did get cut somewhere while stabbing Devon. I don't know if it was the arm or what. I hadn't thought about it being on the same arm as her stabbing hand. There appears to be a hesitation wound above the cut on her arm also. The bruises on his feet and the cut on his buttocks means he fought with her, doesn't it?

Most people believe that Devon did fight back, myself included, although I don't think he put up a huge struggle. The defensive wounds on his arm & the back of his thigh look like he raised his arms and legs to block the knife.

I'd have to read his autopsy report again, but it seemed there was a question as to whether those were bruises on his feet, or just the result of lividity. Can't remember...it's been a long time since I read it.

Do you have any ideas how Darlie could have received the wound on the side of her right arm if she was holding the knife in her right hand? (She was right handed). I've tried and tried, but just can't picture how it could accidentally happen in a struggle with Damon. And if it was self-inflicted - which I'm convinced of - why on earth did she use her left hand to do it? Arghhh, drives me crazy :banghead:

Cowgirl
06-28-2005, 09:19 AM
Most people believe that Devon did fight back, myself included, although I don't think he put up a huge struggle. The defensive wounds on his arm & the back of his thigh look like he raised his arms and legs to block the knife.

I'd have to read his autopsy report again, but it seemed there was a question as to whether those were bruises on his feet, or just the result of lividity. Can't remember...it's been a long time since I read it.

Do you have any ideas how Darlie could have received the wound on the side of her right arm if she was holding the knife in her right hand? (She was right handed). I've tried and tried, but just can't picture how it could accidentally happen in a struggle with Damon. And if it was self-inflicted - which I'm convinced of - why on earth did she use her left hand to do it? Arghhh, drives me crazy :banghead:If she were trying to make it look like someone else wounded her, she could put the knife in the unnatural hand to make wounds on her body. All of her wounds are on the surface. None of them is anything like the terrible deep stabbing wounds her boys sustained.

Mary456
06-29-2005, 08:07 PM
If she were trying to make it look like someone else wounded her, she could put the knife in the unnatural hand to make wounds on her body.

That's a real possibility. My first reaction was that Darlie wouldn't have the presence of mind to do that, but then I remembered that she was devious enough to cut the screen, as well as her t-shirt. (that's a subject we haven't touched on yet, but it's an interesting one. Cuts in the t-shirt, but no corresponding injuries to her body). Darlie was such a little rascal.

Anyway, good observation, Cowgirl.

beesy
06-29-2005, 11:11 PM
If she were trying to make it look like someone else wounded her, she could put the knife in the unnatural hand to make wounds on her body. All of her wounds are on the surface. None of them is anything like the terrible deep stabbing wounds her boys sustained. I was reading this thinking I answered this already. Forgot it was in a PM to Mary. I agree using the other hand to cut the dominant arm would, in her mind, make us think it was some sort of defensive injury. The so-called killer had an easy mark with her lying on the sofa as she thinks she was, to stab deeply. Again, with the boobies in the way though ahem:angel: Hey great minds.... Lets all still think about an injury she may have gotten in the fight with Devon ok?

sue1017
06-30-2005, 11:16 AM
Hey I was just reading that only Darlie's and Damon's blood was found on the knife found at the crime scene. What happened to the knife that was used to kill Devon? Where the boys stabs wounds done by the same type of weapon?
S

beesy
06-30-2005, 03:26 PM
[QUOTE=sue1017]Hey I was just reading that only Darlie's and Damon's blood was found on the knife found at the crime scene. What happened to the knife that was used to kill Devon? Where the boys stabs wounds done by the same type of weapon?
The ME said they were both stabbed with a similar knife, and even Darlie says the attaker had the butcher knife from her house in his hand. Most people believe in the 2-attack theory which is: Devon was stabbed by Darlie, it appears he fought, possibly cutting her, then she stabbed Damon in the back :chicken: and believing him to be dead, started thinking about herself. Let's see....I'm cut so I have pretend to be a victim, then maybe realized the sock had blood on it, ran down the alley to throw it away, cut the screen with the bread knife, put that back in the butcher block then most likely cut her neck at the kitchen sink, rinsed off the knife, wiped up the counter and sink, called 911, maybe at some point during the call, realized Damon was crawling towards her and stabbed him again, the FATAL blow. Hateful woman! This explains why only hers and Damon's blood was on the knife. Devon's had been washed down the sink. Blood was detected by Luminol on the counter and in the sink, but it couldn't be tested. It's not really there anymore, just the image
Alot of people believe she staged the scene before slitting her throat, then called 911 earlier than planned because it was bleeding more than she thought it would. She was wiping up the counter and the sink, rinsing the knife, stabbing Damon while on the phone. Either theory explains the lack of Devon's blood on the knife. She was bleeding when she stabbed Damon that final time. Her blood was on top of his.

beesy
06-30-2005, 03:29 PM
That's a real possibility. My first reaction was that Darlie wouldn't have the presence of mind to do that, but then I remembered that she was devious enough to cut the screen, as well as her t-shirt. (that's a subject we haven't touched on yet, but it's an interesting one. Cuts in the t-shirt, but no corresponding injuries to her body). Darlie was such a little rascal.

Anyway, good observation, Cowgirl. I know: the cuts on her shirt. I don't even know where to begin on that one. Anybody? A rascal? My but aren't you nice Miss Mary

sue1017
06-30-2005, 03:33 PM
Beesy,

I like your first thought on this. About her cleaning the knife after stabbing the boys. Then she realized that Damon was still crawling around and therefore had to stab him again. Hence, Hers and Damon's blood only on the knife. Make total sense.

I wonder what your opinion is on the part of 911 call where she is saying (either stating or asking) 'he's dead'! Is she making a statement or asking a question?

Let me know what you think.

Sue

Dani_T
06-30-2005, 07:15 PM
Just a couple of things-

They only found Damon and Darlie's blood on the knife but there is a possibility that they missed some of Devon's blood on it depending on how well it was tested (for example they didn't lift the handle to see if any blood had seeped down).

Secondly, just a note with your first timeline Beesy- Darlie could not have cut her neck before running the sock out because she would have been bleeding too profusely at that stage to not leave a blood trail

kelizabeth
06-30-2005, 07:55 PM
:dance: I am a neeeewbie! Always been interested in this case. Who is CWB? Why would he mess with autopsy photos. I know, I am probably asking a typical newbie question, but any new friend want to catch me up?

beesy
06-30-2005, 11:00 PM
[QUOTE=kelizabeth]:dance: I am a neeeewbie! Always been interested in this case. Who is CWB? Why would he mess with autopsy photos. I know, I am probably asking a typical newbie question, but any new friend want to catch me up


Welcome! Christopher Wayne Brown is a person who put together some letters, called them words, added some pix, pasted it all together and after self-editing and self-publishing ended up with what he calls a book. We have no proof, but some of the pix seem a little doctored to slant things Darlie's way. He briefly explains how he got the pix. Says he took pix of photos from somebody. Any good or bad author knows you need to credit the pix under each one in captions. Printing pix of pix to use for a book makes it easier to manipulate, dont ya think? The whole thing is nearly impossible to wade thru, but it's a good tool for researching. Be strong and don't get sucked in!

Dani_T
06-30-2005, 11:57 PM
Welcome! Christopher Wayne Brown is a person who put together some letters, called them words, added some pix, pasted it all together and after self-editing and self-publishing ended up with what he calls a book. We have no proof, but some of the pix seem a little doctored to slant things Darlie's way. He briefly explains how he got the pix. Says he took pix of photos from somebody. Any good or bad author knows you need to credit the pix under each one in captions. Printing pix of pix to use for a book makes it easier to manipulate, dont ya think? The whole thing is nearly impossible to wade thru, but it's a good tool for researching. Be strong and don't get sucked in!


Actually he put together mainly a whole stack of media articles about the Routier murders and then added juvenile comments throughout them (in red ink). He also has some correspondence from Darlie and a few other photos.

Kelizabeth- The only worthwhile thing in the book is the crime scene photos and even those aren't great quality (he copied them from the court evidence archives). Furthermore a stack of them are labelled incorrectly (which can only be because he hasn't bothered to understand the transcripts properly).

If you get the book don't bother reading the text- it's pointless. Also be wary of the photos themselves because the colouring is off in some of them (whether deliberate or not).

beesy
07-01-2005, 12:29 AM
[QUOTE=Dani_T]Just a couple of things-

[QUOTE]
They only found Damon and Darlie's blood on the knife but there is a possibility that they missed some of Devon's blood on it depending on how well it was tested (for example they didn't lift the handle to see if any blood had seeped down).
Right, and although they usually don't need much blood to test, they do need some. If most of it was rinsed off and they didn't check down the handle, then there was nothing for them to find. Doesn't mean it wasn't there or that there was another knife.

Secondly, just a note with your first timeline Beesy- Darlie could not have cut her neck before running the sock out because she would have been bleeding too profusely at that stage to not leave a blood trail Thanks for catching that! I don't know why I wrote it like that. I've never thought that she cut herself then ran around staging things. I changed it. So thanks!:doh:

beesy
07-01-2005, 12:35 AM
[QUOTE=Dani_T]Actually he put together mainly a whole stack of media articles about the Routier murders and then added juvenile comments throughout them (in red ink). He also has some correspondence from Darlie and a few other photos.
Yep, many media articles. The things he fusses about have nothing to do with LE's performance or methods. He plays with it enough to make you wonder for just a sec though. Be strong;) I guess we're all trying to say "take it with a grain of salt"

beesy
07-01-2005, 01:56 AM
Beesy,

I like your first thought on this. About her cleaning the knife after stabbing the boys. Then she realized that Damon was still crawling around and therefore had to stab him again. Hence, Hers and Damon's blood only on the knife. Make total sense.

I wonder what your opinion is on the part of 911 call where she is saying (either stating or asking) 'he's dead'! Is she making a statement or asking a question?

Let me know what you think.

Sue Ok, I'm pasting cami's post here. If I'm not supposed to, I'll delete it. She hears some different things than the transcript, but Darlie approved everything but the "fighting" part. I've heard some of the things cami has listed here, but cannot hear the "DAMON DAMON DAMON" which is where many people think she noticed Damon was alive. It's very short, not loving. I'm still trying to hear it. I think alot of people hear it. Listen to the tape thinking she did it. The first time I did that, I finally heard how fake it is. Note the very clear, "Darin someone came in here..blahblah" then the quick return to hysteria.
I'm going to take some liberities with the 911 transcript and post what I and others have heard.
OO:OO:OO COl: ...Rowlett 911...what is your emergency...
00:01:19 FC: ...somebody came here...they broke in...
00:03:27 COl: ...ma'am...
00:05:ll FC: ...they just stabbed me and my children...
00:07:16 COl: ...what...
00:08:05 FC: ...they just stabbed me and my kids...my little boys...
00:09:24 COl: ...who...who did...
00:11:12 FC: ...my little boy is dying...Darlie actually says " someone" not "my little boy is dying"
00:11:25 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) clear...
00:13:07 COl: ...hang on...hang on...hang on...
00:15:03 FC: ...hurry...(unintelligible)..
00:16:01 COl: ...stand by for medical emergency..
00:18:11 FC: ...ma'am...
00:18:19 COl: ...hang on ma'am...
00:21:26 FC: ...ma'am...

00:23:00 COl: ...unknown medical emergency...5801 Eagle Drive...
00:24:00 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
00:26:24 FC: ...ma'am...
00:27:12 COl: ...ma'am...I'm trying to get an ambulance to you...hang on a minute...
00:28:20 RADIO: ...(siren)...
00:29:13 FC: ...oh my God...my babies are dying...
00:30:12 MC: ...(unintelligible)...--Darlie actually says "they're dead"? She says it in a very high voice and questioning, imo
00:31:09 COl: ...what's going on ma'am...
00:32:13 FC: ...(unintelligible)...oh my God...
00:33:49 RADIO: ...(tone - signal broadcast)...
00:34:0l BV: ...(unintelligible)...
00:35:20 FC: ...(unintelligible) thought he was dead...oh my God...Darlie actually says "he's seven year's old and he's dead"... oh my God

00:39:08 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:39:29 FC: ...I don't even know (unintelligible)..."who did it Darin"
00:40:22 COl: ...attention 90l unknown medical emergency 5801...
00:42:23 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:43:15 FC: ...I don't even know (unintelligible)..."who did it Darin"
00:44:04 COl: ...Eagle Drive...Box 238...cross street Linda Vista and Willowbrook...attention 90l medical emergency...
00:49:28 FC: ...who was breathing...She does not say "who is breathing"
00:50:l0 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
00:51:15 FC: ...(unintelligible) are they still laying there (unintelligible)...She says "we gotta find out who did this"
00:51:19 COl: ...may be possible stabbing...5801 Eagle Drive...Box 238...
cross street Linda Vista and Willowbrook...
00:55:06 FC: ...oh my God...what do we do...
00:57:17 COl: ...time out 2:32...
00:58:26 FC: ...oh my God...
00:58:28 COl: ...stamp me a card Clint...0l:0l:02 COl: ...80...
01:01:16 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:02:13 FC: ...oh my God...
01:03:05 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:04:07 COl: ...need units going towards 5801 Eagle Drive...5801 Eagle Drive...
01:04:07 FC: ...oh my God...my baby's dead...
01:07:08 FC: ...Damon...hold on honey...
01:08:ll MC: ...(unitelligible)...Darin is saying "get somebody"
01:08:22 COl: ...hysterical female on the phone..
01:10:03 FC: ...hold on...
01:10:10 MC: ...(unitelligible)...
01:10:26 COl: ...says her child has been stabbed...
01:ll:28 FC: ...I saw them Darie[sic]...--Darin
01:12:21 MC: ...oh my God...(unintelligible) ..came in here...

Somewhere in here Darin says "he can't make it they don't get somebody here.


01:14:10 COl: ...ma'am...I need you to calm down and talk to me...
01:14:24 RADIO: ....
01:16:25 FC: ...ok...
01:16:26 SND: ...(unintelligible)...
01:17:12 COl: ...twice Clint...
__________________

01:18:26 FC: ...didn't you get my address...
01:20:19 COl: ...5801 Eagle...
01:22:00 FC: ...yes...we need help...
01:22:03 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) will be enroute code...
01:24:20 FC: ...Darin...I don't know who it was...
01:24:2 COl: ...2:33 code...
01:26:15 FC: ...we got to find out who it was...
01:27:12 COl: ...ma'am...
01:28:04 COl: ...ma'am listen...listen to me...
01:29:27 FC: ...yes...yes...(unintelligible)...
01:30:23 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) I'm clear... do you need anything...
01:32:08 MC: ...(unintelligible)...
01:32:20 FC: ...oh my God...
01:34:00 COl: ...(unintelligible)...
01:34:22 COl: ...do you take the radio Clint...
01:35:23 CO2: ...yes...
01:36:12 FC: ...oh my God...
01:36:25 COl: ...I...ma'am...
01:38:03 FC: ...yes...
01:38:17 COl: ...I need you to...
01:38:23 RADIO: ...(unintelligible) start that way (unintelligible)...will revise...
01:39:28 COl: ...I need you to talk to me..

01:41:21 FC: ...what...what...what...

Right after this "what, what, what, Darlie says Damon, Damon, Damon. On the second Damon, her voices is short, curt and sounds angry. I think but have been unable to confirm it that she tells Darin that Damon is still alive or is still breathing.

01:44:25 RADIO: ...(unintelligible)...
01:44:28 FC: ...my babies are dead (unintelligible)...
01:46:20 RADIO: ...go ahead and start that way...siren code 4...advise...
01:47:10 FC: ....(unintelligible)...
01:48:03 FC: ...(unintelligible) do you want honey... hold on (unintelligible)...
01:49:17 COl: ...ma'am...I can't understand you...
01:50:21 FC: . ..yes...

That's as far as I have done with the 911 call that I can remember right off hand. I will have another listen and see what else I heard. I don't have a transcript made. I have it burned to a cd so it's a bit easier to hear. I know that Camilla has gone further so hopefully if she gets here she can add to mine.

Goody
07-01-2005, 11:38 PM
I was reading this thinking I answered this already. Forgot it was in a PM to Mary. I agree using the other hand to cut the dominant arm would, in her mind, make us think it was some sort of defensive injury. The so-called killer had an easy mark with her lying on the sofa as she thinks she was, to stab deeply. Again, with the boobies in the way though ahem:angel: Hey great minds.... Lets all still think about an injury she may have gotten in the fight with Devon ok?
The little fingernail marks on the underside of her chin are right where a child might try to push someone away leaning over him and hurting him. You grab what you can.

beesy
07-02-2005, 12:49 AM
The little fingernail marks on the underside of her chin are right where a child might try to push someone away leaning over him and hurting him. You grab what you can. Oooooh, that's very good, very good. Any marks or cuts no matter how small would be enough to force her into becoming a victim. How could an innocent sleeping mom get fingernail stratches on her chin, marks which matched Devon's fingers? Even Darlie knew the original plan was blown. But she still screwed up in the long run. Made too many errors staging the scene. Here's a hint for future killers: don't ever clean up blood. You might have a chance to explain spilled blood, but wiped up blood? Not a chance in BEEP remember this

Goody
07-02-2005, 01:40 AM
Oooooh, that's very good, very good. Any marks or cuts no matter how small would be enough to force her into becoming a victim. How could an innocent sleeping mom get fingernail stratches on her chin, marks which matched Devon's fingers? Even Darlie knew the original plan was blown. But she still screwed up in the long run. Made too many errors staging the scene. Here's a hint for future killers: don't ever clean up blood. You might have a chance to explain spilled blood, but wiped up blood? Not a chance in BEEP remember this
If I remember correctly, she claimed they were scratches from the intruder as he stuffed the sock in her mouth, until she passed out, which explained why she didn't remember the attacks. She was unconscious! Or is that just a supporter claim after the fact? Whatever. I am just amazed the prosecutor didn't connect those little fingernail marks to Devon, but maybe he did and couldn't bring it in because she was not charged with Devon's death.

Mary456
07-02-2005, 02:05 AM
The little fingernail marks on the underside of her chin are right where a child might try to push someone away leaning over him and hurting him. You grab what you can.

Only problem with the chin scratch is that there's no testimony, none whatsoever, that she had that scratch in the hospital. It doesn't show up until years later on the Justice for Darlie website and in CWB's book...and even he doesn't point it out!

If the police were thorough enough to photograph the tiny scratches on her left hand, do you think they would have ignored an obvious scratch on her chin? Remember that photo on her website where her head is back and they're begging you to see her swollen lips? That photo wasn't admitted into evidence...it's another example of supporters' willingness to use any means to trick and confuse.

I think we've been duped again.

Mary456
07-02-2005, 02:14 AM
[b]If I remember correctly, she claimed they were scratches from the intruder as he stuffed the sock in her mouth, until she passed out, which explained why she didn't remember the attacks. She was unconscious! Or is that just a supporter claim after the fact? b]

That's just a supporter claim after the fact, Goody. Darlie never claimed an intruder stuffed a sock in her mouth. She never complained of a chin cut or mouth cuts or a raw mouth when she was in the hospital.

All of that baloney is courtesy of her supporters. After so many years of hearing their B.S, it's difficult to separate fact from fiction...which is what they're counting on :boohoo:

beesy
07-02-2005, 04:58 PM
[QUOTE=Mary456]That's just a supporter claim after the fact, Goody. Darlie never claimed an intruder stuffed a sock in her mouth. She never complained of a chin cut or mouth cuts or a raw mouth when she was in the hospital.
Oh yeah, forgot about that. She'd have complained about the mouth especially :boohoo: Chris strikes again. He said she had ulcers in her mouth too, right? Hmmmm....good try, back to square 1, Goody.



All of that baloney is courtesy of her supporters. After so many years of hearing their B.S, it's difficult to separate fact from fiction...which is what they're counting on :boohoo:
You're exactly right. Keep us in check Miss Mary

Goody
07-03-2005, 12:01 AM
Only problem with the chin scratch is that there's no testimony, none whatsoever, that she had that scratch in the hospital. It doesn't show up until years later on the Justice for Darlie website and in CWB's book...and even he doesn't point it out!

If the police were thorough enough to photograph the tiny scratches on her left hand, do you think they would have ignored an obvious scratch on her chin? Remember that photo on her website where her head is back and they're begging you to see her swollen lips? That photo wasn't admitted into evidence...it's another example of supporters' willingness to use any means to trick and confuse.

I think we've been duped again.
This could be since we don't know what the cops had that they didn't want us to see. Both sides have an agenda in every trial. It is hard to trust the pro-darlie websites where those pictures are concerned. Even those admitted into evidence have been so enhanced, the injuries are obviously exaggerated in color, size, etc. It sure would be nice if someone went back to the record and published unenhanced photos but I guess there is no chance of that happening.

Goody
07-03-2005, 12:03 AM
That's just a supporter claim after the fact, Goody. Darlie never claimed an intruder stuffed a sock in her mouth. She never complained of a chin cut or mouth cuts or a raw mouth when she was in the hospital.

All of that baloney is courtesy of her supporters. After so many years of hearing their B.S, it's difficult to separate fact from fiction...which is what they're counting on :boohoo:
Didn't she testify that maybe the intruder put something in her mouth like a gag or his hands over her mouth so she couldn't scream? You know, make the suggestion without giving up her amnesia claims?

beesy
07-04-2005, 04:29 PM
Didn't she testify that maybe the intruder put something in her mouth like a gag or his hands over her mouth so she couldn't scream? You know, make the suggestion without giving up her amnesia claims? I don't think she did. Like most of her story, she seems to think we should know where the bruises came from, why she didn't scream...etc....
Her supporters talk about those big bruises and say no way could she hurt herself like that. Darlie herself has never mentioned being beaten with a blunt object during her so-called struggle. Again, she just leaves that to us.

Goody
07-04-2005, 07:57 PM
I don't think she did. Like most of her story, she seems to think we should know where the bruises came from, why she didn't scream...etc....
Her supporters talk about those big bruises and say no way could she hurt herself like that. Darlie herself has never mentioned being beaten with a blunt object during her so-called struggle. Again, she just leaves that to us.
Well, she does that because she thinks her lack of explanation proves she is not lying about not being able to remember what happened. If she remembers anything she is not supposed to, there goes her whole alibi.

Goody
07-04-2005, 10:09 PM
I don't think she did. Like most of her story, she seems to think we should know where the bruises came from, why she didn't scream...etc....
Her supporters talk about those big bruises and say no way could she hurt herself like that. Darlie herself has never mentioned being beaten with a blunt object during her so-called struggle. Again, she just leaves that to us.
This is as close to it she got under testimony:
5 Q. If you saw a man attacking your
6 children, you would scream your head off, wouldn't you?
7 A. Yes, sir, unless my mouth was covered.
8 Q. You would scream for your husband,
9 wouldn't you?
10 A. Unless my mouth was covered, yes, sir.
11 Q. You didn't have any problems screaming
12 for him when he finally got up and came down there, did
13 you?
14 A. My mouth was not covered.
15 Q. Did you find any tape, or any gauze or
16 anything stuffed in your mouth that showed it to be
17 covered?
18 A. No, just except for that it was torn
19 up inside.
20 Q. Okay. It was all torn up inside.
21 A. Well, it felt raw.
22 Q. Did you talk to the doctors about
23 that?
24 A. I talked to the nurse about that, yes,
25 I did.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
4934

She doesn't address the sock at all except when questioned about the coincidence that it was found behind Glenn Mize's house, a man she disliked immensely. I guess the stuffed in the mouth explanation was created by supporters to account for her DNA on the sock.

Also, the blunt object could have been the floor, a wall, a countertop, possibly even a door. It just has to be a flat surface with no edges to leave marks.

beesy
07-06-2005, 04:20 PM
She doesn't address the sock at all except when questioned about the coincidence that it was found behind Glenn Mize's house, a man she disliked immensely. I guess the stuffed in the mouth explanation was created by supporters to account for her DNA on the sock.

Also, the blunt object could have been the floor, a wall, a countertop, possibly even a door. It just has to be a flat surface with no edges to leave marks. Yeah, those bruises could have been caused by many things, IV's, needles, blood settling, but I meant she's never made up a story about how she got them. The Darlies say "look at these bruises!" never saying that the man had a bat or some other weapon. Darlie never mentions her arms hurting while in the hospital. They just put all these things out there and expect people to know they occured during the attack with an intruder. It's worked for a lot of people though. At least Dr. Mac respected us enough to make up a tale which matched his boo-boo's. She never even says "I guess I got these from the man" She says "look at the pix! How could I have made those bruises" then hands it back to us.
We all know she did it, but jeez Darlie, give us something to work with besides amnesia

Goody
07-06-2005, 04:27 PM
Yeah, those bruises could have been caused by many things, IV's, needles, blood settling, but I meant she's never made up a story about how she got them. The Darlies say "look at these bruises!" never saying that the man had a bat or some other weapon. Darlie never mentions her arms hurting while in the hospital. They just put all these things out there and expect people to know they occured during the attack with an intruder. It's worked for a lot of people though. At least Dr. Mac respected us enough to make up a tale which matched his boo-boo's. She never even says "I guess I got these from the man" She says "look at the pix! How could I have made those bruises" then hands it back to us.
We all know she did it, but jeez Darlie, give us something to work with besides amnesia
But that is Darlie's lie M.O. She never commits to anything. She offers evidence, maybe a few facts that can't be disputed, then kicks back and let's people jump to their own conclusions or solve the mystery for her. That way they can't trip her up in a lie. I imagine it worked really good for her in high school and she's been doing it ever since.

Darin, on the other hand, says whatever pops into his mind, forgetting what he said previously half the time. That is why he gets caught and she doesn't.

beesy
07-06-2005, 04:36 PM
But that is Darlie's lie M.O. She never commits to anything. She offers evidence, maybe a few facts that can't be disputed, then kicks back and let's people jump to their own conclusions or solve the mystery for her. That way they can't trip her up in a lie. I imagine it worked really good for her in high school and she's been doing it ever since.

Darin, on the other hand, says whatever pops into his mind, forgetting what he said previously half the time. That is why he gets caught and she doesn't. Yep, psst...duufus remember?
Judge Judy: "You don't have to have a good memory if you tell the truth!"


NVenomous Beesy N


from beneath you, it devours

Goody
07-06-2005, 04:44 PM
Yep, psst...duufus remember?
Judge Judy: "You don't have to have a good memory if you tell the truth!"


NVenomous Beesy N


from beneath you, it devours
:laugh: Good one, Beesy.

SnootyVixen
07-06-2005, 10:23 PM
Whenever you see movies where people die from having their throats cut they are actually slashed from ear to ear with a deep open wound- nothing like running it along your skin.


Dani T. I think I am agreeing about not able to do the deep stabbs to the body. And I don't think I am one that could cut the neck at all. I think I just must live. (little humor) But what it is I am wanting to say is that when the large vessel in the throat is cut you die. Doesn't matter how it got cut I think. You just die from the bleeding. Don't yuou think? Not a right way or a not right way to cut the vessel. Don't matter. Cut and you die.
SnootyVixen

Goody
07-06-2005, 10:52 PM
Whenever you see movies where people die from having their throats cut they are actually slashed from ear to ear with a deep open wound- nothing like running it along your skin.


Dani T. I think I am agreeing about not able to do the deep stabbs to the body. And I don't think I am one that could cut the neck at all. I think I just must live. (little humor) But what it is I am wanting to say is that when the large vessel in the throat is cut you die. Doesn't matter how it got cut I think. You just die from the bleeding. Don't yuou think? Not a right way or a not right way to cut the vessel. Don't matter. Cut and you die.
SnootyVixen
Ira Einhorn cut his throat a while back and he was not seriously injured. I think there is a right way and wrong way one can cut their throat to avoid the artery, windpipe, vocal cords, etc. It is not an easy thing to do, but people do it more often than we know so it is not unheard of or impossible.

beesy
07-06-2005, 11:08 PM
[QUOTE=SnootyVixen]Whenever you see movies where people die from having their throats cut they are actually slashed from ear to ear with a deep open wound- nothing like running it along your skin.
True, you see it in real life too LOL Darlie didn't know the caratoid artery was so close to the surface. She nearly killed herself. She has used that as a defense, saying that nobody would knowingly slice so close to the caratoid artery. She didn't know, simple

Dani T. I think I am agreeing about not able to do the deep stabbs to the body. And I don't think I am one that could cut the neck at all. I think I just must live. (little humor) But what it is I am wanting to say is that when the large vessel in the throat is cut you die. Doesn't matter how it got cut I think. You just die from the bleeding. Don't yuou think? Not a right way or a not right way to cut the vessel. Don't matter. Cut and you die.
SnootyVixen Besides being scary, Darlie never would have stabbed herself in the stomach or chest, boobs remember? She figured she'd slice her throat a tad, but then it bled more than she expected and she thought she'd cut either the caratoid or jugular vein. Either would have taken her out in seconds. She called 911 at that time to save herself. Not sure what her original plan was, but it wasn't to call them when she did. Why would an intruder cut her throat when it'd be easier to stab her in the chest or stomach. She guesses she was lying down during the attack. Why mess with her throat? He didn't because it didn't happen

SnootyVixen
07-06-2005, 11:08 PM
Goody I only am thinking of cutting the vessel. If it donot get cut then it don't matter what the cut is. But if the vessel gets cut the you die and it don't matter again how the cut was. Am I saying it wrong? Darlie cuts the neck and it is a wrong cut. But it closely came to cutting the large vessel. If it cut, then she would die anmd it don't matter that she did a wrong cut. Is that right?

Goody
07-06-2005, 11:14 PM
Goody I only am thinking of cutting the vessel. If it donot get cut then it don't matter what the cut is. But if the vessel gets cut the you die and it don't matter again how the cut was. Am I saying it wrong? Darlie cuts the neck and it is a wrong cut. But it closely came to cutting the large vessel. If it cut, then she would die anmd it don't matter that she did a wrong cut. Is that right?
Yes. The danger in that particular area was only the carotid artery. It is very thin so you either hit it or you don't. If you don't, you aren't going to bleed to death. If you do, you've only got minutes to get medical attention. Almosts don't count.

beesy
07-06-2005, 11:31 PM
Goody I only am thinking of cutting the vessel. If it donot get cut then it don't matter what the cut is. But if the vessel gets cut the you die and it don't matter again how the cut was. Am I saying it wrong? Darlie cuts the neck and it is a wrong cut. But it closely came to cutting the large vessel. If it cut, then she would die anmd it don't matter that she did a wrong cut. Is that right? Darlie did not make a wrong cut. She wasn't trying to hit the caratoid, she didn't hit it therefore she made a right cut. If she had hit the jugular or caratoid, she'd have died and that's not what she wanted to do. So her cut was right. It depends on what you are trying to do. Mary said she's heard of people who know how to miss the important things, that's a right cut because they achieved what they were trying to. A killer or someone trying to kill themselves cuts deep enough to cut the artery so that's a right cut. It just depends on if you want to kill or injure.

Mary456
07-07-2005, 12:16 AM
But what it is I am wanting to say is that when the large vessel in the throat is cut you die.

Not necessarily, Snooty. Dr. Dillawn said that lacerations of the carotid artery can stop bleeding if pressure is applied, either from overlying muscle tissue or even a towel. He's seen it happen with some of his patients.

It's really irrelevant, though, because Darlie didn't cut her carotid artery.

Mary456
07-07-2005, 12:25 AM
Mary said she's heard of people who know how to miss the important things, that's a right cut because they achieved what they were trying to.

No, beesy, I don't think Darlie had any idea where her carotid artery was. In fact, I'll bet most of us don't know where that artery is located in our necks.

I believe it was just dumb luck that Darlie didn't sever it, BUT I'll bet there's been a few times over the last 8 years when she's wished she had!

beesy
07-07-2005, 04:11 AM
No, beesy, I don't think Darlie had any idea where her carotid artery was. In fact, I'll bet most of us don't know where that artery is located in our necks.

I believe it was just dumb luck that Darlie didn't sever it, BUT I'll bet there's been a few times over the last 8 years when she's wished she had!Actually, that's what I meant. After reading about all of this and polling some friends and family, they didn't know how close to the surface the carotoid is, and many are smarter and less crazy than Darlie. I was just trying to tell SV that there's really no right or wrong way to cut your neck. It's what you're trying to do. Darlie just intended to slice it and then when it bled so much, she might have thought she hit the vein or artery. I think she probably knew enough to know that people are murdered by slashing of throats. I think she was worried that she'd cut harder than she meant to. If we are talking about wrong or right cuts, she made a correct cut because she didn't hit anything fatal, which was her plan. Maybe not the exact location of the veins, but she knew a person can bleed to death if his throat is slashed. So using S.V's theory, Darlie made a right cut for what Darlie wanted to do. And like you said, she just happened to stop at a good spot! I think it's because it hurt too much so she stopped. But what a windfall for her. Nearly severing the artery! Why wouldn't an intruder just stab her anway? Because Darlie couldn't get up the nerve to stab herself
All the Darlies have latched onto to the fact that she cut so close. Their theory is that nobody would ever do that on pursose because it was so dangerous. But again, Darlie had no idea when she sliced it how close she came. . When it bled a lot I think she was worried she was bleeding out.
Here is the post above where I said Darlie didn't know

True, you see it in real life too LOL Darlie didn't know the caratoid artery was so close to the surface. She nearly killed herself. She has used that as a defense, saying that nobody would knowingly slice so close to the caratoid artery. She didn't know, simple

beesy
07-07-2005, 04:23 AM
No, beesy, I don't think Darlie had any idea where her carotid artery was. In fact, I'll bet most of us don't know where that artery is located in our necks . When I am saying "carotid or jugular", don't assume I'm saying she knew about them. I'm just explaining what could have happened and using the correct names.

Goody
07-07-2005, 11:00 PM
Darlie did not make a wrong cut. She wasn't trying to hit the caratoid, she didn't hit it therefore she made a right cut. If she had hit the jugular or caratoid, she'd have died and that's not what she wanted to do. So her cut was right. It depends on what you are trying to do. Mary said she's heard of people who know how to miss the important things, that's a right cut because they achieved what they were trying to. A killer or someone trying to kill themselves cuts deep enough to cut the artery so that's a right cut. It just depends on if you want to kill or injure.
Well, actually, Beesy, Snooty is right because she is saying that the "wrong" in the cut was the cut itself if one had been cut by someone trying to kill them. From that perspective, if the cut had been "right" as you say, she would have been cut from ear to ear, hitting the carotid artery, and slicing through the windpipe, vocal cords, etc.

Goody
07-07-2005, 11:02 PM
Not necessarily, Snooty. Dr. Dillawn said that lacerations of the carotid artery can stop bleeding if pressure is applied, either from overlying muscle tissue or even a towel. He's seen it happen with some of his patients.

It's really irrelevant, though, because Darlie didn't cut her carotid artery.
Technically you are correct, Mary, but they also testified that one would have had to have access to medical care almost immediately after being cut. A person can bleed out in just a few minutes if the carotid is cut.

Goody
07-07-2005, 11:07 PM
No, beesy, I don't think Darlie had any idea where her carotid artery was. In fact, I'll bet most of us don't know where that artery is located in our necks.

I believe it was just dumb luck that Darlie didn't sever it, BUT I'll bet there's been a few times over the last 8 years when she's wished she had!
I disagree. There is no way to know where it actually is, but one could know the general location and avoid it. I think she purposely missed the vocal cords, windpipe, and major arteries (in this case the carotid) and that is one reason why the cut is on the angle it is. I also think the cut went deeper than she intended. The knife was just so sharp that it happened so fast she couldn't control it. I think that came as a surprise to her.

Goody
07-07-2005, 11:08 PM
In fact, I'll bet most of us don't know where that artery is located in our necks.

Thanks to Darlie, I know where mine is now!!!!!

beesy
07-08-2005, 12:21 AM
Well, actually, Beesy, Snooty is right because she is saying that the "wrong" in the cut was the cut itself if one had been cut by someone trying to kill them. From that perspective, if the cut had been "right" as you say, she would have been cut from ear to ear, hitting the carotid artery, and slicing through the windpipe, vocal cords, etc. I find the question pretty stupid in the 1st place. And I do understand what she's saying. It's more symantics than anything. :crazy:

symantics
Bees' new word for the day!

accordn2me
07-08-2005, 10:17 AM
MTJD is supposedly still enroute. I got an email 06/23 saying it usually takes 5 business days and to contact them if I hadn't received it in 21 business days. It looks like mine is going to be a 21 day arrival. :banghead:

Does the book say anything about the necklace and exactly where in her neck it was embedded? I remember reading something about it in the transcripts but I don't seem to recall them being specific about where the necklace was. I wish there was a big red arrow on one of those pictures on the 'fordarlie' site (like those that supposedly show the beginnings of bruises in the hospital).

If I had to guess, I'd surmise that the necklace would be embedded at the start or very near the beginning of the cut. However, the beginning of the cut looks too high for a necklace like the one described.

Please veteran and novice sleuthers, entertain me with your theories about the necklace. Did it save her life....no Damon saved her life...:doh:

Jeana (DP)
07-08-2005, 10:43 AM
Please veteran and novice sleuthers, entertain me with your theories about the necklace. Did it save her life....no Damon saved her life...:doh:


First of all, everything in MTJD is CWB's "opinion," so if you're going there expecting to get rock solid answers for anything, you're wasting your time.

What saved Darlie's life was the fact that she didn't kill herself.

beesy
07-08-2005, 05:38 PM
What saved Darlie's life was the fact that she didn't kill herself.
Well put!:clap:

beesy
07-08-2005, 05:47 PM
MTJD is supposedly still enroute. I got an email 06/23 saying it usually takes 5 business days and to contact them if I hadn't received it in 21 business days. It looks like mine is going to be a 21 day arrival. :banghead:

Does the book say anything about the necklace and exactly where in her neck it was embedded? I remember reading something about it in the transcripts but I don't seem to recall them being specific about where the necklace was. I wish there was a big red arrow on one of those pictures on the 'fordarlie' site (like those that supposedly show the beginnings of bruises in the hospital).

If I had to guess, I'd surmise that the necklace would be embedded at the start or very near the beginning of the cut. However, the beginning of the cut looks too high for a necklace like the one described.

Please veteran and novice sleuthers, entertain me with your theories about the necklace. Did it save her life....no Damon saved her life...:doh: Sorry about the book delay. The book doesn't say where it was embedded(I don't think). I'm not sure the location means anything anyway. It shows a couple of pix of the nicks in it. But all that proves is she had the darn thing on. Duh! Chris always acts like many of the things he's pointing out, LE has debated. Everybody knows she had the necklace on. As far as Damon saving her life, her story is a lie, so he couldn't have saved her life. We've all done it, had sleepless nights, thought and thought about it all, but stop:banghead: over Darlie, she's not worth it. We all just need to keep brainstorming.

beesy
07-08-2005, 06:07 PM
I disagree. There is no way to know where it actually is, but one could know the general location and avoid it. I think she purposely missed the vocal cords, windpipe, and major arteries (in this case the carotid) and that is one reason why the cut is on the angle it is. I also think the cut went deeper than she intended. The knife was just so sharp that it happened so fast she couldn't control it. I think that came as a surprise to her. Well, you said it better, but that's what I was trying to say. Darlie knew enough about her throat to know there are some important things in there(God I hope so:doh: I'm sure she's seen movies or pix of someone dead with their throat cut. By starting up high, instead of across(the ear-to-ear cut), she thought she could cause a good injury, but not actually die. Even Darlie knows where her vocal chords and windpipe are(again with the hoping). The cut looks like she recoiled when she started and then the knife jumped back down, out of her control. She freaked out, thinking she'd cut something important and would end up looking like pix she'd seen. She called 911 before she meant to. We've said this before, but it's hard to wade through all these posts, so no harm in repeating it, right?

dasgal
07-08-2005, 08:04 PM
I think you are dead on the money, Goody. But I also still wonder if she didn't mean to off herself. I go back and forth about that one.

Mary456
07-08-2005, 08:50 PM
Didn't she testify that maybe the intruder put something in her mouth like a gag or his hands over her mouth so she couldn't scream? You know, make the suggestion without giving up her amnesia claims?

Yes, she "speculated" that an intruder might have covered her mouth, but that's as far as she dared go, because of the amnesia deal. The stories about a sock being stuffed in her mouth are straight from the supporters, and it's obvious why. They needed to explain Darlie's DNA in the foot of the sock, because that's exactly where her DNA would be if she put it on her hand before stabbing the boys.

beesy
07-09-2005, 02:37 AM
Yes, she "speculated" that an intruder might have covered her mouth, but that's as far as she dared go, because of the amnesia deal. The stories about a sock being stuffed in her mouth are straight from the supporters, and it's obvious why. They needed to explain Darlie's DNA in the foot of the sock, because that's exactly where her DNA would be if she put it on her hand before stabbing the boys. Yes remember poor Darlie was bleeding and struggling with a man(she thinks) how can she be expected to remember all these teeny details. :boohoo:
Alot of times you hear about attacks of this type where the victim does live. And I mean a real attack, like a car jacking or rape. The victim usually tries to burn everything into her memory so she can help catch the guy. Same horrible trauma, but they can recite second by second unlike our lovely Darlie

Mary456
07-09-2005, 09:49 PM
Alot of times you hear about attacks of this type where the victim does live. And I mean a real attack, like a car jacking or rape. The victim usually tries to burn everything into her memory so she can help catch the guy. Same horrible trauma, but they can recite second by second unlike our lovely Darlie

The traumatic amnesia claim didn't fly with the jury, beesy, because she "remembered" what pointed to an intruder, but drew a blank about the evidence that pointed to her.

Darlie remembered that the intruder was either white/black, wore a dark t-shirt, jeans, a baseball cap with no logo on it, and longish hair. That's a pretty detailed description, considering that there were no lights on in the house & she saw the intruder walking away from her, going toward the utility room. How would she know there was no logo on the cap...in the dark????

Why didn't she scream until after the intruder left the house? Darlie doesn't know. Why didn't she fight the intruder? Darlie doesn't remember. How did she walk through the glass 6 or 7 times (according to Darin) and not get a single cut on her feet?

How does a 5 year-old child, stabbed through the liver and lungs, walk behind his mother and calmly wait until she tells him to lie down? Darlie remembers that, and you know why? Because she knew darn well that Damon had left a blood trail as he crawled across the family room, and she had to explain it somehow.

Darlie should have claimed traumatic amnesia for the entire event, because selective amnesia has never worked, and it never will.

beesy
07-11-2005, 02:28 AM
[QUOTE=Mary456]The claim didn't fly with the jury, beesy, because she "remembered" what pointed to an intruder, but drew a blank about the evidence that pointed to her.
Am I speaking in an alien language? I wasn't talking about Darlie when I mentioned most people try burn their attacker's face into their brains. I never said Darlie's traumatic amnesia was real. I know all the blanks etc. I know the jury didn't believe it. I was making a point. Most victims who survive an attack don't get full or selective traumatic amnesia, they pay close attention to the guy. Point being: Darlie's excuse is bull and I was showing evidence to back that up!

Jeana (DP)
07-11-2005, 09:47 AM
[QUOTE]
Am I speaking in an alien language? I wasn't talking about Darlie when I mentioned most people try burn their attacker's face into their brains. I never said Darlie's traumatic amnesia was real. I know all the blanks etc. I know the jury didn't believe it. I was making a point. Most victims who survive an attack don't get full or selective traumatic amnesia, they pay close attention to the guy. Point being: Darlie's excuse is bull and I was showing evidence to back that up!


I think the two of you were agreeing with one another, but got your wires crossed!! :) :) :)

beesy
07-11-2005, 09:50 AM
I think the two of you were agreeing with one another, but got your wires crossed!! :) :) :)
Really? ok, thanks! and sorry Mary for misunderstanding.:blowkiss:

Goody
07-12-2005, 02:21 PM
The traumatic amnesia claim didn't fly with the jury, beesy, because she "remembered" what pointed to an intruder, but drew a blank about the evidence that pointed to her.

Darlie remembered that the intruder was either white/black, wore a dark t-shirt, jeans, a baseball cap with no logo on it, and longish hair. That's a pretty detailed description, considering that there were no lights on in the house & she saw the intruder walking away from her, going toward the utility room. How would she know there was no logo on the cap...in the dark????

Why didn't she scream until after the intruder left the house? Darlie doesn't know. Why didn't she fight the intruder? Darlie doesn't remember. How did she walk through the glass 6 or 7 times (according to Darin) and not get a single cut on her feet?

How does a 5 year-old child, stabbed through the liver and lungs, walk behind his mother and calmly wait until she tells him to lie down? Darlie remembers that, and you know why? Because she knew darn well that Damon had left a blood trail as he crawled across the family room, and she had to explain it somehow.

Darlie should have claimed traumatic amnesia for the entire event, because selective amnesia has never worked, and it never will.
Wow! Mary, you just turned on a big bright light in Goody's brain. Thank you very much. I really didn't get the selective amnesia thing as it applies to the crime scene until just now.

You see, Darlie's original plan was to say she slept thru the attacks, and in that case in her mind, it made perfect sense for her to remember where Damon was after she awoke. But by trial she had changed it from being asleep to the traumatic amnesia excuse and that presented a bigger problem for her. In the end though she had to live with it.

You are right. She shouldn't have remembered Damon's activities either if the memory loss was caused by the trauma of the event. She was still right in the middle of the trauma when Damon supposedly followed her across the room. This leans hard toward proofing she was lying. Yahooooooooooo!

What confused me before is that she does most of her weaving in and out of memory in her testimony. She doesn't even remember half the people who testified against her and only parts of what happened in the hospital. Both of those events should not have been a problem for her if the TA was real, but she was trying to convince the court that the TA was an ongoing problem that apparently hadn't stopped. It was the only way to protect herself from the risk of answering incorrectly and exposing her guilt.

Thank you very much.

Goody
07-12-2005, 02:26 PM
I find the question pretty stupid in the 1st place. And I do understand what she's saying. It's more symantics than anything. :crazy:

symantics


Bees' new word for the day!
I think there may be a language problem here that is misleading you. I sense that English may not be Snooty's first language. She is probably doing the best she can to explain what she thinks as plainly as possible, so go a little easy on her. She is genuine.

Goody
07-12-2005, 02:32 PM
I think you are dead on the money, Goody. But I also still wonder if she didn't mean to off herself. I go back and forth about that one.
Hey, das. I have never believed that neck wound was a suicide attempt. It is just too easy to slice deeply and quickly to miss as many vital parts as she did. Too many others, who really were attempting suicide, have not only succeeded but they've not missed those parts at all. That tells me that it was either a botched attack or self inflicted to promote the image of "victim" for police. Which one it is probably depends on why she killed the kids, and that is still up for debate.

beesy
07-12-2005, 02:36 PM
I think there may be a language problem here that is misleading you. I sense that English may not be Snooty's first language. She is probably doing the best she can to explain what she thinks as plainly as possible, so go a little easy on her. She is genuine. Yes ma'am.
I don't think I was hard on her. Was I? I didn't mean to be, sorry.

Goody
07-12-2005, 03:20 PM
Yes ma'am.
I don't think I was hard on her. Was I? I didn't mean to be, sorry.
No problem. Just cluing you in a little. I like Snooty. The first time I posted with her (at another forum) I called her Snotty. We had our little tiff and now we are buds, I think.

SnootyVixen
07-12-2005, 08:13 PM
Because she knew darn well that Damon had left a blood trail as he crawled across the family room, and she had to explain it somehow.


This I did not know. What is his trial if I may ask?

Mary456
07-13-2005, 11:55 PM
Because she knew darn well that Damon had left a blood trail as he crawled across the family room, and she had to explain it somehow.


This I did not know. What is his trial if I may ask?

Hi, Snooty. In his closing statement, Toby Shook said it was apparent from the DNA that Damon moved across the family room to the doorway where he eventually collapsed.

By all accounts, he fell asleep right next to Darlie, so she had to come up with an explanation of how he ended up across the room. The story about Damon walking behind her fit the bill, but it was way too late. She never mentioned a thing about it in her statement to police.

Mary456
07-14-2005, 12:12 AM
She shouldn't have remembered Damon's activities either if the memory loss was caused by the trauma of the event. She was still right in the middle of the trauma when Damon supposedly followed her across the room. This leans hard toward proofing she was lying. Yahooooooooooo! [/color][/size]

Boy, does it ever! In his closing statement, Toby Shook said several times, "She hadn't come up with the amnesia defense yet." He had her number alright :)

Mary456
07-14-2005, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE]
Am I speaking in an alien language? I wasn't talking about Darlie when I mentioned most people try burn their attacker's face into their brains.

Good grief, Beesy, I was agreeing with you!

beesy
07-14-2005, 01:01 AM
Good grief, Beesy, I was agreeing with you! I know, I'm sorry. I forgot my secret decoder ring that night. :blowkiss:

beesy
07-14-2005, 01:08 AM
Hi, Snooty. In his closing statement, Toby Shook said it was apparent from the DNA that Damon moved across the family room to the doorway where he eventually collapsed.

By all accounts, he fell asleep right next to Darlie, so she had to come up with an explanation of how he ended up across the room. The story about Damon walking behind her fit the bill, but it was way too late. She never mentioned a thing about it in her statement to police. Don't forget the bloody handprint on the carpet. I keep wondering why she put Damon in her story as having waked her up. He was obviously over at the sofa, trying to get away from her:furious: because his handprint was picked up with Luminol. Somebody wiped the actual blood away though. Was she worried all of Damon's blood hadn't been wiped off the sofa? She doesn't say anything about one of her "babies" waking her up on the 911 tape. Another afterthought. I hate to think it, but most likely Damon did say "Mommy" at some point during the attacks. In every lie, there's a shred of truth.

beesy
07-15-2005, 08:49 AM
Goody-
I remembered a way we can call Darlie names without it being bad. There's an old saying in the South. As long as you add "bless his/her heart" on the end, the insult is made invalid, but you get your point out there. For instance: look at that trashy Darlie Routier, bless her heart"! ;)

Jeana (DP)
07-15-2005, 09:15 AM
Goody-
I remembered a way we can call Darlie names without it being bad. There's an old saying in the South. As long as you add "bless his/her heart" on the end, the insult is made invalid, but you get your point out there. For instance: look at that trashy Darlie Routier, bless her heart"! ;)


LOL

I'm not sure why we need to call Darlie anything. She's convicted and sentenced to die for murdering two of her children with a butcher knife while they slept. I think being called "trashy," sort of pales by comparison. ;)

cami
07-15-2005, 09:57 AM
Darlie remembered that the intruder was either white/black, wore a dark t-shirt, jeans, a baseball cap with no logo on it, and longish hair. That's a pretty detailed description, considering that there were no lights on in the house & she saw the intruder walking away from her, going toward the utility room. How would she know there was no logo on the cap...in the dark????

Yeah and she used what was familiar to her--Darin, long hair in the back (mullet), 6 ft, etc. and she put the intruder in Damon's clothes, black.

cami
07-15-2005, 10:18 AM
Boy, does it ever! In his closing statement, Toby Shook said several times, "She hadn't come up with the amnesia defense yet." He had her number alright :)

I'd say, if she really did have TA, she wouldn't even have made that 911 call. she would not have been oriented as to time and place the way she was. She wouldn't have known what hit her let alone "a man came in, stabbed me, stabbed my babies"

Oh dear poor Darlie, no one would believe she slept through these attacks, silly of her to even put that out there. Even Mac tried retrograde amnesia at one point to when he was faced with having to explain evidence against him.

cami
07-15-2005, 10:20 AM
Because she knew darn well that Damon had left a blood trail as he crawled across the family room, and she had to explain it somehow.


This I did not know. What is his trial if I may ask?

??? Snooty you didn't know that? Damon was stabbed in two different areas and at two different times. Some of us believe he may have been trying to get to his father but he was definitely trying to get away.

cami
07-15-2005, 10:27 AM
Don't forget the bloody handprint on the carpet. I keep wondering why she put Damon in her story as having waked her up. He was obviously over at the sofa, trying to get away from her:furious: because his handprint was picked up with Luminol. Somebody wiped the actual blood away though. Was she worried all of Damon's blood hadn't been wiped off the sofa? She doesn't say anything about one of her "babies" waking her up on the 911 tape. Another afterthought. I hate to think it, but most likely Damon did say "Mommy" at some point during the attacks. In every lie, there's a shred of truth.

I think you could be right on the money Beese. Remember Mac and Kimmy's "daddy, daddy, daddy. He can't shake the sound of her voice. It's what made him turn around and lambast her with that club as she interrupted what he was doing--beating her mother. He made it part of his story of hearing she and her mother screaming and crying back in the bedroom, it's what "woke him up"

I suspect that Darlie could not rid herself of the sound of Damon's voice crying mummy so she used it as part of her story. She had to allege something woke her up so she could get the authorities there and the medical help she needed.

Goody
07-15-2005, 09:16 PM
I'd say, if she really did have TA, she wouldn't even have made that 911 call. she would not have been oriented as to time and place the way she was. She wouldn't have known what hit her let alone "a man came in, stabbed me, stabbed my babies"

.
I think you are right, Cami. When I had my little experience with TA, everything moved in slow motion and faces seemed to be strangely out of reach and blurred. Later it was that time period that my memory lapses occurred in. However, I was hysterical immediately afterwards, but only when approached by another child. My point is that it took another traumatic event (sight of the other child) to send me into the hysteria or bring me out of the disorientation I had been in. Darlie's trauma was the murders. She should have been disoriented from the time she supposedly woke up to see the intruder exit. Could the sight of the intruder have been enough to trigger the hysteria? I don't know. I see no signs that she ever went through the disoriented stage, which should have preceeded the hysteria. And once out of the hysteria, she never went through denial or anger or guilt. How did she manage that?

Goody
07-15-2005, 09:18 PM
Yeah and she used what was familiar to her--Darin, long hair in the back (mullet), 6 ft, etc. and she put the intruder in Damon's clothes, black.
She also described Damon's baseball cap that was laying on the utility room floor, and put it on the intruder.

Goody
07-15-2005, 09:24 PM
Goody-
I remembered a way we can call Darlie names without it being bad. There's an old saying in the South. As long as you add "bless his/her heart" on the end, the insult is made invalid, but you get your point out there. For instance: look at that trashy Darlie Routier, bless her heart"! ;)
aaaaahahahahahaha! You are so right. We southerners have our ways, don't we? I guess I just have enough yankee in me to call it just as I see it with no qualifiers, but I like the one you just mentioned. It is killing them softly, isn't it? Or maybe killing them with kindness?

Goody
07-15-2005, 09:26 PM
LOL

I'm not sure why we need to call Darlie anything. She's convicted and sentenced to die for murdering two of her children with a butcher knife while they slept. I think being called "trashy," sort of pales by comparison. ;)
:clap: ahhhaahahahahahahahaha!

beesy
07-15-2005, 11:38 PM
aaaaahahahahahaha! You are so right. We southerners have our ways, don't we? I guess I just have enough yankee in me to call it just as I see it with no qualifiers, but I like the one you just mentioned. It is killing them softly, isn't it? Or maybe killing them with kindness?
Ok, labels then..."here comes that white trash Routier family, always screaming and hollering, bless their hearts".
"And that Darlie! That big bleached hair and those 2 inch nails and that tacky house. Well, look at the way she was raised. She doesn't know any better, bless her heart" I think it's more backhanded compliments. :eek: Please don't say you've got Yankee in you! The horror! LOL

Mary456
07-16-2005, 12:10 AM
Yeah and she used what was familiar to her--Darin, long hair in the back (mullet), 6 ft, etc. and she put the intruder in Damon's clothes, black.

Reminds me of the Julie Rea case. When she described the intruder to the sketch artist, it looked just like her little boy! As Beesy said, "In every lie, there's a shred of truth." Especially when you have to think up the lie really, really fast :bang:

Goody
07-17-2005, 12:40 AM
Please don't say you've got Yankee in you! The horror! LOL

O, yes. I am half yankee and half southerner. As a matter of fact, my paternal roots hail from Appomattox.

Mullins
07-17-2005, 01:54 PM
...I've heard it described as "telling someone to go to H - - - in such a way that they are looking forward to the trip...." :blushing: I shudder to think that I might have done so myself on past occasions.... And BTW I agree with the statement "in every lie there is a grain of truth" I think Darlie would even agree in retrospect. Whether or not she'd admit it's another story.

:twocents: TA, Schmemporary Amnesia

aaaaahahahahahaha! You are so right. We southerners have our ways, don't we? I guess I just have enough yankee in me to call it just as I see it with no qualifiers, but I like the one you just mentioned. It is killing them softly, isn't it? Or maybe killing them with kindness?

Goody
07-18-2005, 04:40 PM
...I've heard it described as "telling someone to go to H - - - in such a way that they are looking forward to the trip...." :blushing: I shudder to think that I might have done so myself on past occasions.... :twocents: TA, Schmemporary Amnesia
LOL! That is another good one!

Dani_T
07-20-2005, 03:57 AM
Boy, does it ever! In his closing statement, Toby Shook said several times, "She hadn't come up with the amnesia defense yet." He had her number alright :)

Which is why I believe she never intended to cut herself at all that night. She was going to claim she slept through it (either right there on the couch or more likely climb into bed with Darin and say she slept through it there) but she cut herself and then had to make it look convincing so did her neck as well and THEN later on realised she needed the traumatic amnesia defense because the story she had prepared wasn't going to cut it anymore.

SnootyVixen
07-20-2005, 01:32 PM
Which is why I believe she never intended to cut herself at all that night. She was going to claim she slept through it (either right there on the couch or more likely climb into bed with Darin and say she slept through it there) but she cut herself and then had to make it look convincing so did her neck as well and THEN later on realised she needed the traumatic amnesia defense because the story she had prepared wasn't going to cut it anymore.

Dani T. it is this that I find trouble to understand. If Darlie did kill them, why so messy? She like her things very clean. Would a person who was very clean desire to get blood all over? To me it does not seem so. There are muh more ways of killing. Why don't she choose another? An why say she sleeps while it happens? Very not smart thing to say. An why say she cut herself when cutting her young sons? I don't have a memory of reading that.

Goody
07-20-2005, 04:24 PM
Dani T. it is this that I find trouble to understand. If Darlie did kill them, why so messy? She like her things very clean. Would a person who was very clean desire to get blood all over? To me it does not seem so. There are muh more ways of killing. Why don't she choose another? An why say she sleeps while it happens? Very not smart thing to say. An why say she cut herself when cutting her young sons? I don't have a memory of reading that.
Good questions, Snooty. First, I think you have to look at the narcisstic personality to understand. Darlie loved being the center of attention, she loved drama, and while she also loved her material things, she knew that some would have to be sacrificed for the greater good if she had any hope of pulling it off. Besides, she didn't ruin anything but the carpet. The couches were vinyl and washable, and the coffee table was not broken. She lost one wine glass that easily replacable. That looks like a preconceived plan rather than a sudden unplanned reaction to some domestic disturbance.

Psychologically speaking, it seems that most of these people who commit such hideous crimes simply expect to be believed. They concoct a story as if mapping out a made for TV mystery and are shocked when people don't buy into it. I think that Darlie was so used to being catered to by those around her that she just never anticipated people NOT believing her, at least not to any great length. In short, she thought she could sell it, and what didn't fit in or make sense would be written off as just one of those oddball things that happen in life. She thought her beauty, her sex appeal, her personality could win over anyone who was doubtful, and as long as she resisted explaining the details, she would be okay...let the cops put the pieces together. If they couldn't, in her mind they couldn't convict her. Like a lot of people she confused reasonable doubt with no doubt at all, thinking that any doubt would force authorities to look for her phantom intruder rather than her or Darin. Never in her wildest dreams did she think she would be arrested. Just look at her mug shot. She is blown away when that happens.

Why did she choose the weapons she did? I don't know, Her penchant for drama comes to mind. Intruders do sometimes use weapons in the house to kill people, that way a weapon can't be traced back to them if they don't leave behind any fingerprints. For someone in the house, a knife is a convenient and relatively safe weapon to choose for the same reason, only in reverse. It can be traced back to them, but they live there and therefore have a reason to handle it. Also, if they use a kitchen knife, they don't have to dispose of it. Disposing of it could link them to the crime whereas just dropping it in the kitchen would not. At least not necessarily. Besides a stranger wouldn't use the victim's knife and then take it with them.

Also, if one is planning to paint themselves as a sympathetic victim and take advantage of whatever media attention they get from it for whatever their reasons might be (probably financial), the bloodier the better. I know it sounds awful but it is dramatic and definitely enhances the victimology in it. Whether she mapped all of this out ahead of time or just took advantage of the turn of events as they turned, the drama is still there and she was the star of the show. It just didn't take her to where she thought it might.

I can almost see her kicking back and talking (to her partner in crime) or thinking....Now what would knock this town back on its haunches?

The biggest problem with this case is that there is a list of things that support premeditation and a list that supports a sudden rage, there is a list that supports a Darlie only killer and a list that supports a they did it together theory.

Goody
07-20-2005, 04:26 PM
Which is why I believe she never intended to cut herself at all that night. She was going to claim she slept through it (either right there on the couch or more likely climb into bed with Darin and say she slept through it there) but she cut herself and then had to make it look convincing so did her neck as well and THEN later on realised she needed the traumatic amnesia defense because the story she had prepared wasn't going to cut it anymore.
Do you think she planned the murders before that night and proceeded to carry the murders out alone, set up her own story, alibi, etc?

Dani_T
07-21-2005, 09:50 PM
Dani T. it is this that I find trouble to understand. If Darlie did kill them, why so messy? She like her things very clean. Would a person who was very clean desire to get blood all over? To me it does not seem so. There are muh more ways of killing. Why don't she choose another? An why say she sleeps while it happens? Very not smart thing to say. An why say she cut herself when cutting her young sons? I don't have a memory of reading that.
Hey Snooty,

I don't think Darlie intended for it to be so messy. I think she expected to stab the boys with a minimum of blood and fuss and didn't expect that
a) She would be cut
b) Damon would drag himself halfway across the room

which necessitated a lot of improvisation on her part. If all had gone to plan (to my way of thinking) she would have stabbed the boys so that they lay dead where they were, cleaned the knife, perhaps taken the sock outside (although who knows if this was part of the improvisation) and probably gone upstairs to Darin so that she could wake and be shocked in the morning about what happened downstairs after she had gone upstairs (she may have even suggested the intruder waited for her to go upstairs before he attacked).

Things only got messy when she found herself tied to the scene because she had been injured (accidentally in the commission of the crime) and had to make it look more serious. Then she had to run around, bleeding, in the scene because she couldn't just go upstairs anymore, thus making the scene a heck of a lot messier than it would have been.

But in terms of WHY choose stabbing? Well who is going to believe that an intruder came into the house and decided to smother two boys to death with cushions? What other ways are there beyond suffication, strangulation (which I doubt she would have had the strength to do), poisioning (not viable for an intruder), gunshot or stabbing? If she wanted to make it look like an intruder it had to be stabbing or gunshot. Suffication and strangulation are not quick deaths. Chances are if someone had strangled one of the boys to death their struggles would have woken the other boy and then he would have been up and screaming bringing Darin downstairs. No, I can't see any other option apart from stabbing or gunshot which fit with the intruder scenario.

Dani_T
07-21-2005, 09:55 PM
Do you think she planned the murders before that night and proceeded to carry the murders out alone, set up her own story, alibi, etc?
Yeah, I think the murders were premeditated - perhaps only a few hours, perhaps a few days (hence her pattern of sleeping downstairs), perhaps weeks in the making. Who knows? But I think she planned what she was going to do. I think she planned that she would cut the screen, stab the boys, stage a little bit (perhaps even planning to make it look they had been robbed by hiding the jewellery and then in the chaos that ensued didn't do that?) and then probably go upstairs, slip into bed without waking Darin and then discover the boys in the morning.

Then that all got shot to hell when she accidentally cut herself.

Goody
07-23-2005, 04:11 PM
Yeah, I think the murders were premeditated - perhaps only a few hours, perhaps a few days (hence her pattern of sleeping downstairs), perhaps weeks in the making. Who knows? But I think she planned what she was going to do. I think she planned that she would cut the screen, stab the boys, stage a little bit (perhaps even planning to make it look they had been robbed by hiding the jewellery and then in the chaos that ensued didn't do that?) and then probably go upstairs, slip into bed without waking Darin and then discover the boys in the morning.

Then that all got shot to hell when she accidentally cut herself.
Why did Darin go back after the ambulances left to look at the screen in the garage?

Dani_T
07-23-2005, 10:47 PM
Why did Darin go back after the ambulances left to look at the screen in the garage?
I don't find that action unusual, or suspicious really. If someone had broken into my home and killed my two boys and attacked my wife and someone said he came through the garage I'd take a look aswell- if for no other reason than I was in a state of shock and disbelief.

I'm really leaning towards Darin not having any involvement in the crime but covering for Darlie later (although maybe not knowing or being willing to admit her guilt to himself).

Mary456
07-23-2005, 11:38 PM
Why did Darin go back after the ambulances left to look at the screen in the garage?

Goody, we only have Darin's word that he went back in to look at the screen, but it's very, very unlikely that he did. When he and the Neals came to the front door - while Darlie was still on the front porch - the police officer only allowed Karen to enter because she was a nurse. The rest of them, including Darin, were not allowed to step foot into the house. The cops had already sealed the crime scene at that point, so it's very unlikely that they would have let Darin wander around in the house after the ambulances left.

It was another one of Darin's lies, possibly concocted to make the police look bad and/or to suggest a contaminated crime scene. I haven't seen any testimony, other than Darin's, that he was given free reign to traipse through the hallway, kitchen, utility room, and into the garage. Baloney!

Goody
07-23-2005, 11:53 PM
Goody, we only have Darin's word that he went back in to look at the screen, but it's very, very unlikely that he did. When he and the Neals came to the front door - while Darlie was still on the front porch - the police officer only allowed Karen to enter because she was a nurse. The rest of them, including Darin, were not allowed to step foot into the house. The cops had already sealed the crime scene at that point, so it's very unlikely that they would have let Darin wander around in the house after the ambulances left.

It was another one of Darin's lies, possibly concocted to make the police look bad and/or to suggest a contaminated crime scene. I haven't seen any testimony, other than Darin's, that he was given free reign to traipse through the hallway, kitchen, utility room, and into the garage. Baloney!
I know, Mary. The more I think about it,the more I am inclined to agree with you. But I think the reason he may have lied about it was probably because he wanted to make himself appear to be innocent. He came up with that at the trial. By then I think he was seriously trying to protect his own butt without alienating Darlie. That is probably what that whole trip to Bond Street right before the trial was, too. An every man for himself back up plan, so to speak.

Mary456
07-24-2005, 12:07 AM
I'm really leaning towards Darin not having any involvement in the crime but covering for Darlie later (although maybe not knowing or being willing to admit her guilt to himself).

I've always felt that way, Dani. I've tried and tried to construct a scenario in which Darin was involved in the murders, or stabbing Darlie, or staging the crime scene, but it simply doesn't wash with any of the physical evidence.

Couple that with his reactions: his first thought was that Devon had knocked over the coffee table and cut himself. That's probably what any parent of an active six-year old boy would think under the circumstances. It doesn't sound "made up" to me, it sounds like a logical presumption. Then there are his obvious efforts to get help, including running across the street for Karen (why he went for Karen after the paramedics arrived, who knows? In the chaos, he may not have even realized that Kolbye and Koschak were paramedics, or maybe he placed more trust in Karen, a good friend who also happened to be a nurse).

I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding Darin's involvement, but everything so far tells me that his immediate reactions were genuine and logical. The pathetic lies emerged later to protect Darlie.

Goody
07-24-2005, 01:07 AM
I've always felt that way, Dani. I've tried and tried to construct a scenario in which Darin was involved in the murders, or stabbing Darlie, or staging the crime scene, but it simply doesn't wash with any of the physical evidence.

Couple that with his reactions: his first thought was that Devon had knocked over the coffee table and cut himself. That's probably what any parent of an active six-year old boy would think under the circumstances. It doesn't sound "made up" to me, it sounds like a logical presumption. Then there are his obvious efforts to get help, including running across the street for Karen (why he went for Karen after the paramedics arrived, who knows? In the chaos, he may not have even realized that Kolbye and Koschak were paramedics, or maybe he placed more trust in Karen, a good friend who also happened to be a nurse).

I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding Darin's involvement, but everything so far tells me that his immediate reactions were genuine and logical. The pathetic lies emerged later to protect Darlie.
Yes, but when did he come running down the stairs, Mary? Just before they called 911 or an hour before? How can you be sooooooo sure he wasn't acting? I know what you mean though. There are times when I lean toward his innocence, too, but then there is so much I don't know what to do with when I do? Explaining Darin is the single most difficult thing in this case.

Dani_T
07-24-2005, 07:57 AM
Yes, but when did he come running down the stairs, Mary? Just before they called 911 or an hour before? How can you be sooooooo sure he wasn't acting? I know what you mean though. There are times when I lean toward his innocence, too, but then there is so much I don't know what to do with when I do? Explaining Darin is the single most difficult thing in this case.
Listen to his voice on the 911 call. It really sounds genuine. He is desperate to get help. He's angry at Darlie for stuffing around. He's not doing her "who would do this who would do this who would do this" thing. He sounds genuinely shocked and scared out of his wits for his boys. Sure, he may have been acting I guess- but I just really doubt it. It seems to me that he came down those stairs and found a scene from his worst nightmare.

Goody
07-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Listen to his voice on the 911 call. It really sounds genuine. He is desperate to get help. He's angry at Darlie for stuffing around. He's not doing her "who would do this who would do this who would do this" thing. He sounds genuinely shocked and scared out of his wits for his boys. Sure, he may have been acting I guess- but I just really doubt it. It seems to me that he came down those stairs and found a scene from his worst nightmare.
Definitely possible. I am just not sold on it. Probably won't be unless I can do something with some of the other out of sync Darin stuff.

I really think if he had nothing to fear from Darlie, he would have dumped her by now, esp since people would understand and have empathy for him. He'd be getting on with his life instead of putting it on hold to show his loyalty for her. At some point, he would hate her for she did, not only to the children but to what she did to their lives. This crime destroyed it totally.

Dani_T
07-24-2005, 09:59 PM
I really think if he had nothing to fear from Darlie, he would have dumped her by now, esp since people would understand and have empathy for him. He'd be getting on with his life instead of putting it on hold to show his loyalty for her. At some point, he would hate her for she did, not only to the children but to what she did to their lives. This crime destroyed it totally.

But IS he still supporting her?? I haven't seen anything from him in years. Is he still proclaiming her innocence? We know that she is stating

Mary456
07-24-2005, 10:44 PM
I really think if he had nothing to fear from Darlie, he would have dumped her by now, esp since people would understand and have empathy for him.

Maybe he did dump her, Goody. We really don't know what their relationship is at this point. J.G. insists that it's been over between them for years. True? I don't know, but one thing is for certain: Darin didn't even attend the news conference in August of 2004, after her second appeal was denied, nor did he give any excuse (like illness, etc.) for not being there. Doesn't sound like the old Darin who latched onto every opportunity to proclaim his wife's innocence.

Want to hear my take on this? Of course you do! Darin, for whatever reason - feeling responsible because he ignored Darlie's emotional problems, pressure from Darlie/ Mama Kee - decided early on to support his wife. He did the interviews and the talk shows, because he really believed he could convince people that Darlie was innocent. Didn't work, and even Dumbo Darin finally realized the public wasn't buying it, including the bogus insurance scam.

Fast forward a few years and a light bulb finally comes on in Darin's head: Darlie can never disclose his involvement, because it would also require admitting her own guilt, and any further appeals would be down the drain. She can't involve him in any way - not as the killer, not as an accomplice, not as an accessory after the fact - because the physical evidence doesn't support it, and she swore under oath that he had nothing to do with the murders. Darlie's over a barrel (as she should be) and Darin's basically home free (as he shouldn't be).

beesy
07-24-2005, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE=Mary456]Maybe he did dump her, Goody. We really don't know what their relationship is at this point. J.G. insists that it's been over between them for years. True? I don't know, but one thing is for certain: Darin didn't even attend the news conference in August of 2004, after her second appeal was denied, nor did he give any excuse (like illness, etc.) for not being there. Doesn't sound like the old Darin who latched onto every opportunity to proclaim his wife's innocence.
hey...psst...who's J.G. So doofus wasn't there, eh? Interesting....

sue1017
07-25-2005, 02:07 PM
I was wondering if anyone had any insights about the boys hands (Devon's mostly since it appears he fought back). Did they ever test for Darlie's DNA under his nails? It does look as tho she sustained scratches to her chin. Does anyone have any input.

Sue

HeartofTexas
07-25-2005, 04:40 PM
I can't answer your question but I do know that one of Devon's hands was "bagged" at the crime scene, which means they could have looked under his nails. I'm just not sure if they did but there are probably other posters here more knowledgeable on the subject that can answer that part.

beesy
07-25-2005, 04:47 PM
I can't answer your question but I do know that one of Devon's hands was "bagged" at the crime scene, which means they could have looked under his nails. I'm just not sure if they did but there are probably other posters here more knowledgeable on the subject that can answer that part. There was nothing under either of the boys' fingernails or Darlie's. They did not take the boys' fingerprints though and then later exhumed them. They cut off their hands to rehydrate them so they could print them. Cut off their hands! Can you imagine? Why is this BS continuing when her family knows darn well she did this? Horrible:furious: