Evidence

[ewwwinteresting]

http://www.milkeninstitute.org/

While perusing through the Milken Institute site (ha ha), I found this article. I guess we should be glad Janet wasn't murdered in Dallas.....their last on the list!

"The rankings were based on employment, output, workforce, and investment."

I don't see speed on the list???

[SouthEastSleuth]

(I realize this post is terribly long, and I apologize in advance… but walking through this thought process seemed to warrant, to me anyway, a good deal of detail… so bear with it if you can, as I would appreciate all sorts of thoughts, opinions, and feedback from you all!)

I’ve been going back and re-reading, re-visiting old posts, documents, media reports, etc. (I actually find it really helpful – things were written, posted, etc., weeks ago, that over time, we’ve been able to clarify, modify, etc.). While doing so, of course, I ended up back at my old pal – the search warrant.

I often think of Rooster’s account of that evening – that Raven got home, tired to "save" Janet, ran to the Durango to get a cell phone, depositing blood on the side door, and on the Durango door, etc., eventually calling 911. While this information, via Rooster, is certainly not confirmable, I’ve always thought that that information came from somewhere, perhaps Raven himself. Totally fabricating that story, for the purposes of posting on WS is certainly possible, but I’ve always believed that someone actually told this to Rooster, or at least some parts of that story. Is this what Raven actually told LE happened, as far as the sequence of events? Who knows.

Keeping that in mind, I went back over the search warrant, AGAIN. Oddly enough, I noticed some new things -

(for reference, please see the pictures of the warrant pages as posted by GM on the Time Line and Case Info thread – I’ll refer to them here by those page #s.)

If you look carefully on the search warrant form (the actual pgs where property seized is listed), there is a blank called "Recovered/Found Location." On several pages of the warrant, the blank is filled in, obviously, as "2606 Ferrand Drive." However, on several of the pages, the information is different.

The page (page 14) where the items listed, item # 4-10, were the clothes Raven was wearing, the recovery location is listed as "W. Chapel Hill Street – Police HQ." Also, on the two pages (page9, page 8) where items are listed (item #44-50, 51-54) as samples, etc., from the Durango, the recovery location is listed as "213 Broadway, Forensic Office."


To me this says, perhaps, that when Raven was asked to turn over his clothing, he was at DPD. The recovery officer is listed as A. Ashby, date of 4/27/05. So perhaps sometime that early morning, Raven was asked to come to the police dept for questioning, at which time he was asked for his clothing. This also says to me that LE did talk to Raven sometime that night/next morning, at DPD…and then brought him back again for additional questions on Thursday morning.

Further, as far as the Durango. If you’ll recall, the police asked for a 2nd search warrant on that Thursday, April 28, after apparently talking to Raven that morning, and making a determination that the vehicle needed to be searched again, possibly to ascertain it’s relationship, if any, to the crime/crime scene.

If you notice on the warrant (page 12), item #s 40-42, reference the following –

40 Knife with case
41 Pawn ticket
42 Swabbings from vehicle (consists of 1 from left front door & 1 from the window)
Later on, items 44-50, 51-54, reference additional samples, etc., as well as the Gatorade bottle, being taken from the Durango. BUT, if you look closely at those two pages, the recovery location is 213 Broadway, with a date of 4/29/05.

This leads me to believe, that when LE first looked at the Durango on the night/morning of the murder, all they sampled were items 40-42. Then after talking to Raven, obtaining a "supplemental" (note that designation at the very top of those two pages 8, 9) to the original search warrant, they came back and took the Durango to the forensics office, at 213 Broadway, for additional "scientific testing" of some sort. What does this say? Something that Raven told them when he was questioned that Thursday morning made them decide to look at the Durango again – not just look, but to actually take the vehicle in for testing. (As was reported in the media at the time.)

Now, the warrant. Notice that when LE took the vehicle into the forensics office, the testing was much more thorough. The night of the murder the ONLY testing on the vehicle itself involved swabbings from the exterior of the left front door and window. And, they took the knife and pawn ticket from the vehicle. Yet, based on SOMETHING Raven said to them obviously, when looking at the Durango a 2nd time, there were samples taken from the INTERIOR of the vehicle for the first time (inside the door, interior door handle, driver floorboard, driver seat), as well as soil samples, and, interestingly enough that Gatorade bottle.

So, Raven told them SOMETHING that made them think, hmmm, we need to get samples, check for trace, etc., from INSIDE the Durango. (They obviously looked inside the Durango the first time, as they took the knife and pawn ticket.) AND, something he said made them also think they needed that Gatorade bottle, which they did NOT take during the first search.

So, let’s think about Rooster’s statement about that night.

Rooster explained the blood on the interiors of the side doors by saying that Raven had been up with Janet, must have gotten her blood on him while trying to "save" her, went to call 911, realizes the phone is in the Durango, runs out the side door – depositing blood on the interior of the door frame, and the interior of the storm door. OK. Then Rooster says that Raven got to the Durango, realized it was locked. Presumably at this point touching the exterior of the Durango door, and, possibly the window (both things as evidenced by the exterior swabbings taken during the initial search of the Durango). Now then, according to Rooster’s story, the blood on the house interior doors is accounted for, and, if in fact the swabbings from the exterior Durango doors is blood, then that is now accounted for as well. Janet’s blood, on Raven, innocently deposited in both of those locations as Raven frantically is trying to get to a phone to call 911.

We did talk at length weeks ago, that if this is true, why is there no blood on the EXTERIORS of the side door, from when Raven would have re-entered the house to finally find the cellphone to call 911. In re-thinking this, I suppose one could argue that when he ran out of the house, both doors were left open, the side door as well as the side storm door, thus when running back in, he did not have to touch the exteriors of the doors or the exterior door handles/knobs.

Ok, so let’s suppose this story, or some close variation is what Raven actually did tell LE that night, or, even when being questioned on Thursday morning, April 28th. So he’s now been able to "explain" how blood is on the interiors of the side doors, as well as any possible blood on the exterior of the Durango driver’s door. BUT, something he said that morning made LE say they wanted another look at the Durango. AND, when they did look again, the focus was on soil samples from the undercarriage, AND, the INTERIOR. And, the gatorade bottle. Yet, if the series of events is true, as described by Rooster, Raven never even entered the Durango. He got to the door, realized it was locked, then ran back in the house, finding the cellphone inside after all.

So why then upon re-inspecting the Durango, did LE take all sorts of samples, controls, and trace from the INTERIOR, having NOT done that the night of the murder? Seems to me they were attempting to verify Raven’s story somehow - soil samples to possibly verify his whereabouts that evening (soccer field, wherever) I suppose. But what about all those samples, etc.? Were they making sure there was no evidentiary material IN the Durango, thus seeing if Raven’s story checked out? Remember, if what Rooster says is true, Raven never went back inside the Durango, so, the only pertinent evidence inside would have to do with something PRIOR to Raven coming home from soccer. Samples and controls were taken from the driver’s seat, driver’s door handle and interior driver door at lock, as well as trace from driver’s floorboard and driver’s seat. What sort of samples/control could LE possibly be wanting from that inside of that car, that would relate to the soccer game alibi? I suppose there are things. And why all of the sudden did LE think the Gatorade bottle was something of interest to them?

My thought is – something about the series of events, as described by Raven, either didn’t make sense to LE, or, they wanted to check it out and see if he was telling the truth. For example:

-Did Raven say something on Thursday morning about the Gatorade bottle? How it got in the vehicle, when it got in the vehicle, was it his, was it Janet’s, what????

-Or, if Raven said he never opened the door of the Durango when he ran out to look for the cellphone, at the point when he deposited Janet’s blood on the EXTERIOR of the door, then in theory, there should be NONE of Janet’s blood in the INTERIOR of the vehicle. Thus, could LE have been checking the INTERIOR to see if there WAS any blood, or not?

-Or, was LE checking for trace inside the Durango, that would have come from inside the house AFTER the murder, or, in some way relating to the murder?

It’s interesting that on the night of the murder, nothing was apparently said that made LE want to investigate the Durango anymore then they did at the time. Maybe they should have, I don’t know protocol for that sort of thing. They certainly did SOME testing, but obviously not ALL.

Raven told them something. Something that made them go back for the Durango.

I keep coming back to blood. Blood on the interior doors. Blood, possibly, on the exterior driver’s door of the Durango. All possibly explained away by Raven.

On the flip side of all this –

Let’s assume Raven did kill Janet.

So is all of this blood everywhere, at least on the interior doors and possibly on the exterior door of the Durango, just some huge set-up? Literally placed there, intentionally, to come up with this story? Several scenarios come to mind –

1) Raven murders Janet, intentionally places blood in the various places, as he comes up with his alibi on the run, literally. Then goes to play soccer. Comes home, uses this dramatic story to explain what has happened, etc. This one doesn’t work for me, at least for one reason – if he got blood on the driver’s door of the Durango, how could he be sure no one at the soccer game wouldn’t notice it, etc.? Possible I suppose, but risky too. Also, in this scenario, Raven could easily have deposited blood, trace, something inside the Durango. Plus, there’s also the issue of the blood itself. I’m no crime scene person by any means, but in this age of CSI, you often hear about the age of blood, blood coagulation, etc. So if the blood was deposited PRIOR to playing soccer, it would seem easily tested in that regard.

2) Raven murders Janet. Leaves Kaiden in his crib, goes to play soccer. Either he’s thought all of this out in advance, or, perhaps while playing soccer he comes up with this story. So he returns home, and literally does all of those things – comes in the house, kisses Kaiden, "finds" Janet, perhaps tries to "save" her, now having her blood on him, runs downstairs looking for the cellphone, and then either intentionally places the blood on the door and Durango, as part of his story, or perhaps even unintentionally, as can then be explained by his version of events, etc. Either way, the presence of the blood is now easily explained to LE when they arrive, or later.

3) Or, lastly, Raven goes to play soccer, comes home later, murders Janet, THEN acts out the whole scenario as described.

Me, I’ve always believed that if Raven is the perp, he murdered Janet, THEN played soccer to create an alibi, etc. And if that’s the case, my bet is on theory #2, as creepy and vile as it may seem. But, that’s JMO.

The more I think about all of this, the more I’m convinced that everything is somehow linked to that 2nd search of the Durango somehow. Could it be as simple as catching Raven in a lie? Is it something to do with scientific evidence recovered from the Durango? Who knows. But nothing else makes sense to me anymore. We’ve talked forever about lab results, etc. But what lab results would actually be pertinent? Many would be easily explainable I would think. Some not. A lot hinges on one thing – whether or not Raven went inside that Durango after finding Janet’s body. And what HE told LE in that regard. All we "know" is what Rooster told us. True or not, who knows. And I know full well that I’m basing a LOT of my thinking here on that whole story from Rooster. But I just have a feeling, that somewhere in Rooster’s story, whether part or all, is something that was told to Rooster, or, heard by Rooster, as far as Raven’s version of the sequence of events for that evening. That story just included too much detail and explanation to have just been fabricated for the purposes of a WS post. But, then again, I’ve been naïve before too, so who knows.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

Note 1: One other point regarding possible evidence INSIDE the Durango. Rooster did say (Evidence thread, post # 368) that the Durango was locked, and Raven went "back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango." Now, if Raven got keys to the Durango, then went back out to the Durango AGAIN, he obviously could have deposited blood or trace, or any number of things INSIDE the Durango at that point. That said, if he did do this, then did he tell LE that story, that night, or later? (Personally, I just don’t see that IF he ran to the Durango, found it locked, that he would go back inside, find keys, then go back outside again. If anything, I would guess that in that scenario, he could have come back inside and realized that his phone WAS in the house, or, that Janet’s phone was inside. Plus, surely he if had blood on him at this point, somewhere along two separate trips to the Durango, we could have deposited blood somewhere else? Just my thoughts of course…

Note 2: HQ for DPD is on W. Chapel Hill Street. The offices for the crime scene unit/forensics office, is off site, at 213 Broadway Street.

[golfmom]

SES, that's a whole lot of material to noodle over. :angel:

[Moxie]

SES,

You are awesome - this is a lot to evaluate and think over.

Moxie

[Moxie]

SES,

I vote for number 2... That would also give him time to dispose of any evidence, including possibly the murder weapon, and did we ever determine what happened to the laptop?

Moxie

[golfmom]

SES,

I vote for number 2... That would also give him time to dispose of any evidence, including possibly the murder weapon, and did we ever determine what happened to the laptop?

Moxie

If we're guessing, my guess is LE has the computers. Raven just doesn't want everyone to know that and has told them that the laptop was *stolen*.

[ewwwinteresting]

Did SES break his own record for the longest post?? :)

Ok, we are going to have to pick this apart and discuss it piece by piece. Thanks for noticing the different places of searches SES, that I didn't pick up. I am thinking LE talked to Raven all night into the next morning. (I'm having this wonderful thought of Raven walking out of the PD in a jumpsuit since they took all of his clothes) :)
Raven refuses a lie detector test and refuses to give his DNA....maybe that is why they needed the gatorade bottle?

[golfmom]

:laugh: Did SES break his own record for the longest post?? :)


Raven refuses a lie detector test and refuses to give his DNA....maybe that is why they needed the gatorade bottle?

Well aren't you the super-smart-sleuther!

[ewwwinteresting]

:laugh:

Well aren't you the super-smart-sleuther!
Wow....thank you GM....I just don't know what to say. She likes me....she really likes me! :)

[golfmom]

Wow....thank you GM....I just don't know what to say. She likes me....she really likes me! :)

:blowkiss:

LOL EI, you are a mess, I would formally give you a super-sleuth crown, but SES might get mad after all his work on his new War & Peace post. He might be thinking he deserved the crown.

[Moxie]

If we're guessing, my guess is LE has the computers. Raven just doesn't want everyone to know that and has told them that the laptop was *stolen*.I don't think that LE has the laptop. If they did they would have arrested Raven by now. That man kept everything on his computer. Good, bad and ugly. I think that the laptop really went "missing" that night as Rooster said. Of course one bird knows where it is.:furious:

[golfmom]

I don't think that LE has the laptop. If they did they would have arrested Raven by now. That man kept everything on his computer. Good, bad and ugly. I think that the laptop really went "missing" that night as Rooster said. Of course one bird knows where it is.:furious:

Remember though how short-handed that department is, they're like a year behind and crimes involving children are taking the priority.

[ewwwinteresting]

I'm having a hard time thinking Raven murdered Janet and then left Kaiden alone in his crib. I'm thinking Raven never left or killed her after the game (if there even was one). Raven would need time to clean up, come up with a story and then practice it. He just doesn't seem smart enough to "wing it." Plus the way he dotes on Kaiden, I don't think he would leave him alone. I guess he could have brought Kaiden with him, left him in the car sleeping with the windows down and parked where he could see/hear him, played soccer, and then put Kaiden back to bed, kissed him goodnight and then pretended to find Janet and call 911...I could buy into that scenario.

[ewwwinteresting]

Remember though how short-handed that department is, they're like a year behind and crimes involving children are taking the priority.
Yes, if Kaiden was also murdered, there would be no need to sleuth because the murderer would be behind bars by now!

[Moxie]

I'm having a hard time thinking Raven murdered Janet and then left Kaiden alone in his crib. I'm thinking Raven never left or killed her after the game (if there even was one). Raven would need time to clean up, come up with a story and then practice it. He just doesn't seem smart enough to "wing it." Plus the way he dotes on Kaiden, I don't think he would leave him alone. I guess he could have brought Kaiden with him, left him in the car sleeping with the windows down and parked where he could see/hear him, played soccer, and then put Kaiden back to bed, kissed him goodnight and then pretended to find Janet and call 911...I could buy into that scenario.On day one, I thought that Raven must have done this after the soccer game in a heated rage. Now, after all I hear and read and know. I find it much more likely that it was planned and done prior to the game. The game being the alibi. Took Kaiden with him? left him in the crib asleep? I don't know the answer to this. But I feel that this man planned and executed the murder of his child's mother without a conscious. So that night perhaps the welfare of his child was not first on his mind.

[golfmom]

Yeah, I've set my tent up in the premeditated campground now.

[ewwwinteresting]

On day one, I thought that Raven must have done this after the soccer game in a heated rage. Now, after all I hear and read and know. I find it much more likely that it was planned and done prior to the game. The game being the alibi. Took Kaiden with him? left him in the crib asleep? I don't know the answer to this. But I feel that this man planned and executed the murder of his child's mother without a conscious. So that night perhaps the welfare of his child was not first on his mind.
This could be true....just seems that he treated Kaiden as an extension of him and we certainly all know he would not forget about himself, even for a second.

Did Raven stab Janet, clean up, go play soccer.....come home and then call 911? I can't imagine Raven actually able to play soccer after stabbing his wife, even if he didn't like her. Not too many people could actually do this. I'm thinking there is no way Raven went to a soccer game that night..he made up that story for his family, friends and LE!

[ewwwinteresting]

Yeah, I've set my tent up in the premeditated campground now.
Remember the rumor of the family being told suicide first? I wonder if Raven tried that out on LE and when they didn't buy it, he switched to another story. :waitasec:

[ewwwinteresting]

This blood is from Raven Running to get his phone out of the durango...After he found Janet...tried to save her:( ...ran outside(getting blood on the door) to get his phone from the Durango. The door was locked...back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango.

This evidance will not "hang" Raven. LE knows all of this...still, Raven has not been arrested or charged or named a susspect. He is innocent!
For some reason, I thought Raven went back inside the house, found the keys, unlocked the door and called 911 from the cell phone in the car. However, by the above post, that scenerio is not confirmed at all. We actually have no idea which phone Raven called from (his or Janet's) and where the phone was located....the house or the car?

As you say, SES, if not from the car, why are they taking samples from the inside of the car? What was there? I've ALWAYS thought, that LE going back to the car after interviewing with Raven was a big sign! Something didn't match up. I'm thinking he was caught in a lie and they were looking for the physical evidence in the car to prove it.

[Moxie]

This could be true....just seems that he treated Kaiden as an extension of him and we certainly all know he would not forget about himself, even for a second.

Did Raven stab Janet, clean up, go play soccer.....come home and then call 911? I can't imagine Raven actually able to play soccer after stabbing his wife, even if he didn't like her. Not too many people could actually do this. I'm thinking there is no way Raven went to a soccer game that night..he made up that story for his family, friends and LE!Let's agree to disagree. I am certain he played soccer that night. And I'm just as certain he killed Janet. The rest is details for the lawyers.:truce:

[SouthEastSleuth]

Let's agree to disagree. I am certain he played soccer that night. And I'm just as certain he killed Janet. The rest is details for the lawyers.:truce:

We have heard reported in the media, not by LE for sure, the reports of Raven playing soccer - now, that said, that first media report was repeating information from Raven's brother as I recall. However, there have been other media reports citing that same information, most recently the article in the Virginia newspaper a week or so ago (see media thread). My thought is, that information would not be "out there", even from Raven's brother, if there was not at least some level of truth to it - and if Raven said he played soccer, and LE found out he did NOT, Raven would already be wearing orange I think.

My bet is he DID play soccer, LE knows it, that LE has verified his soccer story, and, the delays in the case lie elsewhere - physical evidence.

[Jenifred]

SES--amazing post. I can't believe that we missed the various addresses of evidence collecting. Great insight too.:clap:

I think that #2 is the scenario. I just wish that someone that was playing soccer with him that night could tell us more about his mood. Was he anxious or was he exhilarated? And I wish we could get more information about the 911 call too. Where was it placed from? Exact time? What was actually said? All of this information would be helpful.

Questions though SES, why do you think that it's taking so long to get information back? Do you think that there's a hold up in the testing? Or do you think that it's possible no incriminating evidence was found? I seriously don't think that Raven could have been that careful in cleaning up that he didn't leave some sort of piece of evidence behind. I wonder if LE swabbed the bathroom's drains (any trace of blood there or bleach)?

Anyone also know when Raven is heading back to NC?

[Moxie]

I do believe the beautiful state of NC should expect a visit from the Bird himself this very week.

[SouthEastSleuth]

I think that #2 is the scenario. I just wish that someone that was playing soccer with him that night could tell us more about his mood. Was he anxious or was he exhilarated? And I wish we could get more information about the 911 call too. Where was it placed from? Exact time? What was actually said? All of this information would be helpful.

Questions though SES, why do you think that it's taking so long to get information back? Do you think that there's a hold up in the testing? Or do you think that it's possible no incriminating evidence was found? I seriously don't think that Raven could have been that careful in cleaning up that he didn't leave some sort of piece of evidence behind. I wonder if LE swabbed the bathroom's drains (any trace of blood there or bleach)?

Anyone also know when Raven is heading back to NC?
I do believe Raven did play soccer that night, truly. I also believe that if if killed Janet, he did so, THEN left to play soccer to create an alibi. But, I do see the point EI makes as well. It is beyond my wildest imagination how anyone could murder ANYONE (just murder anyone period, for that matter), then go play soccer. That I will never understand, ever. To me that is the mind of a sociopath, clearly...and I guess that makes me glad that I can't understand that sort of demented mental capacity. What are your thoughts as you're on that soccer field? Are you focused on the game? Are you simply using this time to plan the events that will invariably occur over the next several hours? There's a story about one of the guys who was allegedly Jack the Ripper - murdering a woman one evening, then going to play cards and have drinks with friends - the friends reported that he was his "usual jovial self" that evening at the club. Unreal to me. But, I digress..

Jenifred, I wish I could answer your questions. My only thoughts have to do with the crime lab, backlogs of cases, etc. I would bet money that LE found SOMETHING - whether trace where it shouldn't be, blood where it shouldn't be, but something.... and this "something", whatever it may be, is what will sink the perp in this case, once and for all...

[Jenifred]

I would bet money that LE found SOMETHING - whether trace where it shouldn't be, blood where it shouldn't be, but something.... and this "something", whatever it may be, is what will sink the perp in this case, once and for all...Then I wonder why he hasn't been picked up.:behindbar (<--my virtual head hurts from the banging)

I really wonder about that soccer game. It makes me sick to think that he could have gotten some kind of high of the adrenaline pumping through his body if he murdered Janet before the game. And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.

[SouthEastSleuth]

And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.
Early on, this was the very reason that made me always think that if Raven killed Janet, that he played soccer, then came home and killed her. I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that he would leave Kaiden there, unattended, while Janet was lying dead in the next room. I changed my thinking on that long ago though - I really believe, and this is certainly JMO, that LE has verified that soccer game - as far as IF Raven played, when he arrived, and when he departed, and accordingly, able to at least extrapolate when he arrived home. That said, a lot would hinge on the time he arrived home, versus making the 911 call. For example, let's say Raven tells LE he left the soccer game at, oh, I don't know 10:15pm... and if LE determines, ok, then it's a let's say, 20 minute drive home, and the 911 call is logged at 10:58pm, then the timeframe for murdering Janet is pretty darn short - especially if there's clean up, set up, what have you. Now, if Raven says, oh I was home by 10:00, then what the heck was he doing until 10:58pm? To make the alibi "work", if you will, he almost has to say that he arrived home not too terribly long before making the 911 call, otherwise, it just doesn't fly.

All of which makes me thinks the murder was first, then soccer, then home. And in that case, he almost has no choice about Kaiden. What's he going to say really? 'Oh, I left Janet at home, and took Kaiden (6month old, early evening) to the soccer game with me, etc" Nope, he has to leave Kaiden at home in the crib, otherwise the story will never work with LE, IMO... And again, so difficult to comprehend, but again, that's why we DON'T think that way hopefully - only a sociopath can think like that, IMO.

[OffRoad]

If he did in fact leave Kaiden home, one would think that his "game" might have been a little off that night. Has anyone had contact with fellow team members? Questioned his performance that night and compared it to previous abilities?

[newkid]

If he did in fact leave Kaiden home, one would think that his "game" might have been a little off that night. Has anyone had contact with fellow team members? Questioned his performance that night and compared it to previous abilities?
If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.

[juliagoulia]

If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.
Or, as we've discussed, if he was in a "manic" phase, his actions could have seemed completely logical to him.

[Cydbaby]

Investigators have found what they believe are four strands of Natalee's hair stuck on duct tape...it is a confirmed find!

This was found not far from where they found a dug grave last week..

This info was posted on the yahoogroup "High Profile Cases" with alot more details re: the DNA tests, etc. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases

[ewwwinteresting]

Investigators have found what they believe are four strands of Natalee's hair stuck on duct tape...it is a confirmed find!

This was found not far from where they found a dug grave last week..

This info was posted on the yahoogroup "High Profile Cases" with alot more details re: the DNA tests, etc. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases
I read that on the Natalee thread.....waiting for test results to determine if they were Natalee's....kinda like what we are doing on this thread...waiting for test results!!

[ewwwinteresting]

Then I wonder why he hasn't been picked up.:behindbar (<--my virtual head hurts from the banging)

I really wonder about that soccer game. It makes me sick to think that he could have gotten some kind of high of the adrenaline pumping through his body if he murdered Janet before the game. And I also believe that he's got no qualms about leaving Kaiden home, in his crib sleeping, while he went out to play.
Right now, I agree with you Jen.

Here's my thinking. And no offense Moxie, I'm not disagreeing as much as trying to discuss all the possibilities and then reach some conclusion.

The ONLY info we have about a soccer game is from a family member. To answer your questions Offroad, to our knowledge, no one has come forward to state they played with or against Raven that night.

What if LE can't confirm OR deny this alibi? A pickup game? From what I read it could be held anywhere with anyone....and most likely with illegal immigrants. A perfect alibi....no way to confirm it, but also no way to prove it is a lie. I'm having a hard time with the whole investigation of this murder and receiving no information. Of course, you would think that if LE could't verify the alibi, they would put out an announcement stating if anybody played a soccer pickup game in Durham, NC on the night of April 26, 2005, call PD. We've heard no such thing....so does this mean LE has verified the alibi and haven't caught Raven in any lies, so no arrest?

Or....as julia and newkid stated, if Raven did murder Janet, leave Kaiden at home, and played in a soccer game, was he in his "manic" mood and therefore could act normal when he just did something so brutally abnormal, thinking it made sense?....if this is the case, isn't the public in danger?

Or.....is a sociopath....acting completely normal......if this is the case, isn't the public in danger?

I guess I can't come to terms with Raven stabbing his wife, leaving her there to die on the floor while her baby is down the hallway in his crib, and leaving without Kaiden, leaving him there with no one to care for him if he wakes up. If Raven is capable of doing that, then I believe the public is in danger from a psychopath!!

[Jenifred]

I guess I can't come to terms with Raven stabbing his wife, leaving her there to die on the floor while her baby is down the hallway in his crib, and leaving without Kaiden, leaving him there with no one to care for him if he wakes up. If Raven is capable of doing that, then I believe the public is in danger from a psychopath!!
In the San Diego Seagull article, the story was that Raven had put Kaiden to bed. And if this is what is being put out there as Raven's story, then I'm assuming this is what Raven had told his family. And if that's the case and if Raven is the murderer, I assume that he left Kaiden home. It is horrible to think, but how else can he get his alibi?

And if that's the case and Janet was killed before the game, wouldn't her body temperature give LE some kind of clue that Raven killed her before the game? And then wouldn't he be in custody now?

[ewwwinteresting]

In the San Diego Seagull article, the story was that Raven had put Kaiden to bed. And if this is what is being put out there as Raven's story, then I'm assuming this is what Raven had told his family. And if that's the case and if Raven is the murderer, I assume that he left Kaiden home. It is horrible to think, but how else can he get his alibi?
Of course, it doesn't say what time he put him to bed. Could have been at 8:00 pm or 10:00 pm or not at all. Maybe Janet put Kaiden to bed and Raven just wants to appear as the great Dad?? I just don't believe anything the family says because it comes from Raven and we know Raven is a liar.

And if that's the case and Janet was killed before the game, wouldn't her body temperature give LE some kind of clue that Raven killed her before the game? And then wouldn't he be in custody now?
I may be wrong, but I think we are dealing with such a small time frame here, TOD isn't going to help. If they can pin the TOD within 2 or 3 hours, what does it matter if she died at 8:30, 9:00 or 10:30.....it's all within the time Raven was supposedly gone. If Raven claims he left at 8:00 and didn't come home until 10:45, I don't see how TOD will point the finger at him. There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?

[Jenifred]

There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?
I don't think Raven could have outsmarted LE. There's got to be something that was left behind. Could LE have missed it?

And I also agree with an earlier post of your ewww saying that it's time for Janet's family to go public. It's been too long for silence now.

Could NC LE be planning something for the 22nd?

[SouthEastSleuth]

I may be wrong, but I think we are dealing with such a small time frame here, TOD isn't going to help. If they can pin the TOD within 2 or 3 hours, what does it matter if she died at 8:30, 9:00 or 10:30.....it's all within the time Raven was supposedly gone. If Raven claims he left at 8:00 and didn't come home until 10:45, I don't see how TOD will point the finger at him. There has to be other evidence. I just can't imagine Raven being this intelligent and not blatantly leaving physical evidence. Could Raven have outsmarted the Detectives?
I agree. As I recall, someone posted info early on that TOD is usually just narrowed to that rough timeframe, 2-3 hours. That said, as EI points out, the TOD versus the alibi info, I don't think, will tell us much at all.

I also agree that there "has to be other evidence." Raven may BE smart, but the smartest of criminals are hard pressed to beat the realm of science. My money is on crime scene evidence, and that the delay is somehow in the processing of that evidence at the crime lab. I have this mental image of those poor souls at the state crime lab - with that huge backlog of case - boxes and bags just piled all over the shelves of perhaps "cases in progress," - and somewhere in all of those boxes, bags, what have you, there's evidence labeled with Janet's name. Patiently sitting there, awaiting it's turn to be analyzed, tested, whatever. Once that happens, if we still have no arrest, I haven't a clue or guess as to what would happen next.

[JerseyGirl]

On the flip side of all this –

Let’s assume Raven did kill Janet.

So is all of this blood everywhere, at least on the interior doors and possibly on the exterior door of the Durango, just some huge set-up? Literally placed there, intentionally, to come up with this story? Several scenarios come to mind –

1) Raven murders Janet, intentionally places blood in the various places, as he comes up with his alibi on the run, literally. Then goes to play soccer. Comes home, uses this dramatic story to explain what has happened, etc. This one doesn’t work for me, at least for one reason – if he got blood on the driver’s door of the Durango, how could he be sure no one at the soccer game wouldn’t notice it, etc.? Possible I suppose, but risky too. Also, in this scenario, Raven could easily have deposited blood, trace, something inside the Durango. Plus, there’s also the issue of the blood itself. I’m no crime scene person by any means, but in this age of CSI, you often hear about the age of blood, blood coagulation, etc. So if the blood was deposited PRIOR to playing soccer, it would seem easily tested in that regard.

2) Raven murders Janet. Leaves Kaiden in his crib, goes to play soccer. Either he’s thought all of this out in advance, or, perhaps while playing soccer he comes up with this story. So he returns home, and literally does all of those things – comes in the house, kisses Kaiden, "finds" Janet, perhaps tries to "save" her, now having her blood on him, runs downstairs looking for the cellphone, and then either intentionally places the blood on the door and Durango, as part of his story, or perhaps even unintentionally, as can then be explained by his version of events, etc. Either way, the presence of the blood is now easily explained to LE when they arrive, or later.

3) Or, lastly, Raven goes to play soccer, comes home later, murders Janet, THEN acts out the whole scenario as described.

Me, I’ve always believed that if Raven is the perp, he murdered Janet, THEN played soccer to create an alibi, etc. And if that’s the case, my bet is on theory #2, as creepy and vile as it may seem. But, that’s JMO.Theory #2 also has my vote. It is creepy and vile but it's the only way that I can understand no arrest yet (if Raven is the perp). Murders her, leaves his baby alone at home, goes to enjoy his soccer alibi, then comes home and goes through all of the motions that would be "normal" upon finding his dead wife. He's a smart guy; he probably got blood on him and took no care to prevent spreading it around. That way, if he had accidentally dripped some during the crime, he felt the planted blood could cover it up. If Raven is the perp., I feel (as we all know) that it was premeditated but I also feel as if he planned down to the very last detail of which he could think. ETA: That includes having her blood on him in case there might have been some that he missed when he cleaned himself up.

Note 1: One other point regarding possible evidence INSIDE the Durango. Rooster did say (Evidence thread, post # 368) that the Durango was locked, and Raven went "back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango."Is this word for word? Why would he say to get Janet's phone or keys to the Durango? I find that very curious. Is he speculating on what Raven might have been doing? Otherwise, he would either go back for Janet's phone OR he would go back for the keys. And if he went back for Janet's phone, why didn't he just use that phone in the first place before running around the house, leaving blood all over the place? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding ... I haven't reread that post so without the context, perhaps I'm missing something.

BTW, I do not remember if they took any samples from the kitchen, counters, or tables anywhere. I wonder where Raven droppped his things when he got home - keys, sunglasses, wallet, whatever he might have had.

ETA: Excellent post, SES. I never looked at the addresses of the evidence collection before. Good catch.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm having a hard time thinking Raven murdered Janet and then left Kaiden alone in his crib.If it would help his alibi, I am positive that Raven would leave him in his crib. And remember, if Raven is indeed manic, and hasn't been taking his medication, leaving Kaiden alone in his crib could just be another bad decision.

If Raven murdered Janet, it's obvious that he already doesn't think like us. So who knows what kind of twisted rationale he could have for leaving that baby there alone?

He said that he had gone to Kaiden's room where he had left him sleeping or something like that in a recent article. So it sounds like Kaiden was already asleep before Raven left, and that Raven had put him to bed. Raven was probably well aware of Kaiden's sleeping habits, and knew that if K's little belly was full, he'd sleep right through the night. So he feeds the baby, puts him to bed, does whatever he does next, and locks the door behind him. Kaiden was young enough that he probably couldn't even stand yet so Raven didn't have to worry about him getting out of his crib. He only had to worry about an outside danger getting in. And to a murderer, is the threat of an outside danger any worse than what he, himself, is? I think that if you can brutally murder someone, especially someone you love and especially with a knife, then you probably don't perceive outside dangers the way a "normal" person would.

IMO, if a person's mind is messed up enough to commit murder, leaving a sleeping baby in his crib alone is no big deal - especially if doing so would help your alibi, and get you home free.

[JerseyGirl]

It is beyond my wildest imagination how anyone could murder ANYONE (just murder anyone period, for that matter), then go play soccer. That I will never understand, ever. To me that is the mind of a sociopath, clearly...and I guess that makes me glad that I can't understand that sort of demented mental capacity. What are your thoughts as you're on that soccer field? Are you focused on the game? Are you simply using this time to plan the events that will invariably occur over the next several hours? There's a story about one of the guys who was allegedly Jack the Ripper - murdering a woman one evening, then going to play cards and have drinks with friends - the friends reported that he was his "usual jovial self" that evening at the club.And in the case of 9 year-old Jessica Lunsford, John Couey raped her and possibly buried her alive right across the street from her family's home. Mere days later, he was seen mugging it up for a video news story about smoking in bars. There he was - drinking, smoking, laughing - looked like he didn't have a care in the world. Some people are simply not capable of thinking the way we do, I guess.

[JerseyGirl]

If he is indeed the murderer and left his child home alone, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he played the same as always. I'm sure he would have convinced himself that he had solved a lot of his problems.Absolutely. And if he is a sociopath, he wouldn't necessarily feel any differently after murdering someone. They are simply incapable of emotions. They might squeeze out some crocodile tears now and then when they need to, but they don't feel remorse or regret.

[JerseyGirl]

I may be alone in this belief, but Raven strikes me as being very smart. I'm not being a smart a*s but is there something that I've missed that has others believing that there's no way that he could have pulled this off; that he's not smart enough?

[JerseyGirl]

I also agree that there "has to be other evidence." Raven may BE smart, but the smartest of criminals are hard pressed to beat the realm of science. My money is on crime scene evidence, and that the delay is somehow in the processing of that evidence at the crime lab.And it could be that there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence that alone might be enough to convict. But if you've got potential forensics waiting to be tested, why chance making an arrest and being forced to go to trial without having the results back yet?

[lauriej]

(I realize this post is terribly long, and I apologize in advance… but walking through this thought process seemed to warrant, to me anyway, a good deal of detail… so bear with it if you can, as I would appreciate all sorts of thoughts, opinions, and feedback from you all!)










So, let’s think about Rooster’s statement about that night.

Rooster explained the blood on the interiors of the side doors by saying that Raven had been up with Janet, must have gotten her blood on him while trying to "save" her, went to call 911, realizes the phone is in the Durango, runs out the side door – depositing blood on the interior of the door frame, and the interior of the storm door. OK. Then Rooster says that Raven got to the Durango, realized it was locked. Presumably at this point touching the exterior of the Durango door, and, possibly the window (both things as evidenced by the exterior swabbings taken during the initial search of the Durango). Now then, according to Rooster’s story, the blood on the house interior doors is accounted for, and, if in fact the swabbings from the exterior Durango doors is blood, then that is now accounted for as well. Janet’s blood, on Raven, innocently deposited in both of those locations as Raven frantically is trying to get to a phone to call 911.



-Or, if Raven said he never opened the door of the Durango when he ran out to look for the cellphone, at the point when he deposited Janet’s blood on the EXTERIOR of the door, then in theory, there should be NONE of Janet’s blood in the INTERIOR of the vehicle. Thus, could LE have been checking the INTERIOR to see if there WAS any blood, or not?


.
.......excellent excellent SES........LOTS to think about in your post...

..about the blood........i never realized before just how key it is in WHICH phone he called 911 from...

...if his own, which he got frrom the locked truck, after trying to revive janet, then there has to blood on both the exterior and interior of the durango

...if janet's then not a speck of her blood should be IN the durango...
...( i do realize i'm just repeating what you just said....i'm just isolating this particular portion of your post because of the wow factor..)

...either way, only ONE of the phones should have blood on it..........and one of them definitely HAS to have blood on it...and fresh blood at that..
...i also don't think he would have left kaiden in the crib while he waited for LE to arrive......therefore kaiden's clothes have to have blood on them as well...

...as in the jeffrey mcdonald case, i can see the blood evidence being a huge factor in this case....

[Moxie]

I don't think Raven could have outsmarted LE. There's got to be something that was left behind. Could LE have missed it?

And I also agree with an earlier post of your ewww saying that it's time for Janet's family to go public. It's been too long for silence now.

Could NC LE be planning something for the 22nd?Question for you Jenifred and anyone else. If you were a member of Janet's family and the detectives in charge of this case directly told you not to go public with any information they shared with you, (even when you asked them if there wasn't just a little piece that could be shared with the media) because it would jeopardize the case, would you go againist their request and speak out?

[Jenifred]

Question for you Jenifred and anyone else. If you were a member of Janet's family and the detectives in charge of this case directly told you not to go public with any information they shared with you, (even when you asked them if there wasn't just a little piece that could be shared with the media) because it would jeopardize the case, would you go againist their request and speak out?
If the family knows what is going on, knows what evidence there is, who that evidence is pointing to, and if there is solid evidence against the perp, then no, they should keep quiet. BUT if LE is giving them the run around, they need to break their silence.

It's almost 3 months since Janet's death and there have only been short blurbs and trite statements asking for the public's help. It's been pathetic at best.

And what really could the family say that could hinder LE's investigation? If Raven is their POI, do they really think that coming out and saying so would make the bird fly? If that's the case then the Durham PD needs to clip that raven's feathers, if you catch my drift.

[golfmom]

Question for you Jenifred and anyone else. If you were a member of Janet's family and the detectives in charge of this case directly told you not to go public with any information they shared with you, (even when you asked them if there wasn't just a little piece that could be shared with the media) because it would jeopardize the case, would you go againist their request and speak out?

There would be no reason for LE to ask Raven to not speak out and help their investigation by asking the public for help. If I was Raven, nothing could prevent me from doing everything within my power to ensure justice for my spouse, including, but not limited to, talking to the media.

Why should he (if innocent) suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous accusations and speculations, when he could easily address the media in a search for Justice for Janet and put it all to rest.

Speak up Raven, let everyone know who Janet was and why it is important for her murderer to be found. Speak up and let the world know that you really did love her.

In this particular case, the only reason I can find for being silent is guilt.

[Moxie]

There would be no reason for LE to ask Raven to not speak out and help their investigation by asking the public for help. If I was Raven, nothing could prevent me from doing everything within my power to ensure justice for my spouse, including, but not limited to, talking to the media.

Why should he (if innocent) suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous accusations and speculations, when he could easily address the media in a search for Justice for Janet and put it all to rest.

Speak up Raven, let everyone know who Janet was and why it is important for her murderer to be found. Speak up and let the world know that you really did love her.

In this particular case, the only reason I can find for being silent is guilt.With this I agree 120%. I want to hear from Raven. I want him to tell everyone what he is doing on a daily basis to find out who killed Janet.

[Moxie]

It's almost 3 months since Janet's death and there have only been short blurbs and trite statements asking for the public's help. It's been pathetic at best. And what really could the family say that could hinder LE's investigation? If Raven is their POI, do they really think that coming out and saying so would make the bird fly? If that's the case then the Durham PD needs to clip that ven's feathers, if you catch my drift.[/QUOTE]

And that is just it, isn't it. Such a fine line. The struggle between instant gratification and the need to comply. Do what your asked, or decide that too much time has passed and risk blowing everything. Well, I thought about this long and hard and I think if it was me, I would do what LE requested in order to see the guilty party rot in jail. So you see that is why I think that Janet's family hasn't spoke out. I know them pretty well and I think they would have said something if they could. The only reason I can think for them to remain silent is that they are being asked to. They want to see this case solved in order to gain some amount of closure. I think if they thought they could get the case solved on their own or with the help of the public, they would be speaking out.

[SouthEastSleuth]

And that is just it, isn't it. Such a fine line. The struggle between instant gratification and the need to comply. Do what your asked, or decide that too much time has passed and risk blowing everything. Well, I thought about this long and hard and I think if it was me, I would do what LE requested in order to see the guilty party rot in jail. So you see that is why I think that Janet's family hasn't spoke out. I know them pretty well and I think they would have said something if they could. The only reason I can think for them to remain silent is that they are being asked to. They want to see this case solved in order to gain some amount of closure. I think if they thought they could get the case solved on their own or with the help of the public, they would be speaking out.
I'm obviously not family, and who knows how one would react if in that same situation - it's always easy to speculate objectively, but when faced with the reality of a truly horrible situation, who knows how any of us might react.

To me, it comes down to two simple things - faith and trust.

As long as Janet's family has faith that LE is doing all it can to bring Janet's murderer to justice, then respecting the wishes of LE seems logical.

As long as Janet's family trusts LE, as far as the way LE is handling the case, communicating potentially with the family, etc., then again, respecting the wishes of LE seems logical.

That said, I would think that if ever the family feels like the investigation has stopped, come to a dead in, what have you, that they would be the first to put any and all pressure possible on LE, either directly or via media pressure.

Day after day it is so frustrating at times with regards to this case. And I think often we think, 'what else can we do'? And it's easy to then focus on the families...and what WE think THEY should or should not be doing...but remember, we are NOT those families. We care, obviously. But, it's not our daughter, sister, friend who's gone. I, for one, have to have faith as well - that if LE asks the family to remain silent at this juncture, that there's a reason, and presumably an important one.

When I refer to families, I don't really even classify Raven there, as I think a spouse is somewhat in a class by themselves. Raven's wife has been murdered; the mother of his child has been murdered. So unless LE has given HIM that same directive, not to speak, then he should be shouting from the rooftops in my opinion - not just professing his innocence, but looking for justice for his wife.

I agree with what someone else wrote earlier - the silence is indeed deafening - but the voice I'd like to hear, is not a family member, but, of Raven himself.

[ewwwinteresting]

I'm obviously not family, and who knows how one would react if in that same situation - it's always easy to speculate objectively, but when faced with the reality of a truly horrible situation, who knows how any of us might react.

To me, it comes down to two simple things - faith and trust.

As long as Janet's family has faith that LE is doing all it can to bring Janet's murderer to justice, then respecting the wishes of LE seems logical.

As long as Janet's family trusts LE, as far as the way LE is handling the case, communicating potentially with the family, etc., then again, respecting the wishes of LE seems logical.
Ok, here's my :twocents: . If I was going to be quiet, LE would have to be telling me a whole lot of what was going on. I would have to be assured that they KNEW exactly who the murderer was, that they HAVE evidence, and that they are waiting for results, and that the results should be back by this date, etc. I would not accept blanket statements like, be patient, we are working on it or we have it under control, don't worry. I would politely, but firmly, advise them that this was my daughter, sister, whatever, and that I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to find this awful human being and bring him to justice. If they wanted me to shut up, they better be telling me why! I think there are so many families that are naive and believe everything LE tells them.....as their case goes cold, evidence gone, possible witnesses no longer remember and then it is too late for the family to do anything. You gotta hit while there still is a fire!

[snapple]

Ok, here's my :twocents: . If I was going to be quiet, LE would have to be telling me a whole lot of what was going on. I would have to be assured that they KNEW exactly who the murderer was, that they HAVE evidence, and that they are waiting for results, and that the results should be back by this date, etc. I would not accept blanket statements like, be patient, we are working on it or we have it under control, don't worry. I would politely, but firmly, advise them that this was my daughter, sister, whatever, and that I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to find this awful human being and bring him to justice. If they wanted me to shut up, they better be telling me why! I think there are so many families that are naive and believe everything LE tells them.....as their case goes cold, evidence gone, possible witnesses no longer remember and then it is too late for the family to do anything. You gotta hit while there still is a fire!
Or at least while there's still smoke!!!!..It seems the fire has been smothered with silence.

[snapple]

And that is just it, isn't it. Such a fine line. The struggle between instant gratification and the need to comply. Do what your asked, or decide that too much time has passed and risk blowing everything. Well, I thought about this long and hard and I think if it was me, I would do what LE requested in order to see the guilty party rot in jail. So you see that is why I think that Janet's family hasn't spoke out. I know them pretty well and I think they would have said something if they could. The only reason I can think for them to remain silent is that they are being asked to. They want to see this case solved in order to gain some amount of closure. I think if they thought they could get the case solved on their own or with the help of the public, they would be speaking out.
I can understand this point and wanting to comply, but I believe it's to the point that TOO MUCH time has passed. I don't understand what exactly there is to blow??? IMO, if there is anything to blow, it's the opportunity to get the story out to the media so that anybody and everybody that saw something or knows something can come forward. After this amount of time there needs to be pressure on LE to back up the "not random..public doesn't need to fear" statement.

[lauriej]

Ok, here's my :twocents: . If I was going to be quiet, LE would have to be telling me a whole lot of what was going on. I would have to be assured that they KNEW exactly who the murderer was, that they HAVE evidence, and that they are waiting for results, and that the results should be back by this date, etc. I would not accept blanket statements like, be patient, we are working on it or we have it under control, don't worry. I would politely, but firmly, advise them that this was my daughter, sister, whatever, and that I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to find this awful human being and bring him to justice. If they wanted me to shut up, they better be telling me why! I think there are so many families that are naive and believe everything LE tells them.....as their case goes cold, evidence gone, possible witnesses no longer remember and then it is too late for the family to do anything. You gotta hit while there still is a fire!
......i agree ..........sure LE can easily be telling the family to be patient....rest assured....we're doing all we can.......we're awaiting forensics.....blah blah blah...

...but...........cases DO go cold..............people move on to the next one........are they missing the media appeal on this one ? witnesses? how can they remember forever where they were on april 26th ?

...i respect the wishes of her family............but raven................i cannot understand for the life of me why HE has not spoken out ????his wife was murdered.............he didn't do it.(?)..........why isn't he all over the web with info..demanding answers...asking for help....defending himself...

...goood grief, even sp had janey online on his side.....

...raven has siblings....family.....where are their comments to the media ?comments in defense of raven ?
...correct me if i'm wrong, but the only thing i've seen attributed to raven's side has been a blatant begging for $$$$$'s through the church.........

[golfmom]

The road to a cold case is paved with good intentions.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[SouthEastSleuth]

Note: I have received this information from more than one independent source. That said, I do not have anyway to actually verify it. But, for what it's worth, I personally feel 100% confident in the veracity of this information.



It has come to my attention that on the evening of April 26th, Raven and Janet's Mormon hometeachers (I am not certain of the number, if there was one hometeacher, or, more than one) were actually at the house that evening. It is my understanding they arrived at the house on Ferrand around 7:00pm, and ultimately left the house around 7:30pm.

This is important for several reasons -

1. Other than the murderer, this/these person(s) would have most likely been the last person(s) to see Janet alive. It would obviously be important to know their impressions of Raven and Janet that evening. What was discussed? Did anything seem "off" or out of the norm? What sort of mood were the Abaroa's in?

(I have no idea if this was a regularly scheduled visit, a random "drop by" visit, or what. But, do recall, from that picture from the day before I believe, where Raven is working on the computer, with Kaiden in his lap, the caption for that picture, as I recall, mentioned something to the effect of 'Kaiden helping Daddy with his hometeaching lesson.' So perhaps the visit on Tuesday night was planned, and on Monday Raven was preparing for that particular lesson/visit.)

2. This tightens the timeframe for the murder at least a little. Obviously we would know that Janet was still very much alive as of 7:30pm that evening. As I recall, EI, or someone, posted long ago that they had rec'd unconfirmed information that Raven had played soccer at 8:30pm, but as I recall, that information was never actually confirmed. So, if Raven is the perp, and if he murdered Janet PRIOR to playing soccer, then the timeframe for the actual murder would be 7:30pm - 8:30pm, IF Raven did in fact play soccer at 8:30. Keeping in mind, too, depending on WHERE he played, the timeline would be shortened by his travel time to the soccer field.

3. But FACTUALLY, we can say that Janet was alive at 7:30pm. And the 911 call was rec'd at 10:58pm. Three hours and thirty minutes, more or less, to account for.

[Jenifred]

(I have no idea if this was a regularly scheduled visit, a random "drop by" visit, or what. But, do recall, from that picture from the day before I believe, where Raven is working on the computer, with Kaiden in his lap, the caption for that picture, as I recall, mentioned something to the effect of 'Kaiden helping Daddy with his hometeaching lesson.' So perhaps the visit on Tuesday night was planned, and on Monday Raven was preparing for that particular lesson/visit.)Usually they do make an appointment to come by. A hometeaching visit occurs once a month. And a lot of the time it is done at the end of the month because numbers are recorded at the beginning of the month. And they more than likely come in pairs.

[newkid]

I may be alone in this belief, but Raven strikes me as being very smart. I'm not being a smart a*s but is there something that I've missed that has others believing that there's no way that he could have pulled this off; that he's not smart enough?
No I'm with you. I think he is smart. My husband has commented that he is a smart guy who sometimes didn't look so smart because he was looking for the easy way around things.

[juliagoulia]

That is important info, SES. Any member of Janet and Raven's ward would know who the home teachers were. I wish we could talk to them or they felt comfortable coming forward with their impressions of that evening.

Did we ever determine if the field where Raven played had lights? I remember we discussed that a few weeks ago. And 8:30pm in April would have made it pretty dark for a game.

[JerseyGirl]

I can understand this point and wanting to comply, but I believe it's to the point that TOO MUCH time has passed. I don't understand what exactly there is to blow??? IMO, if there is anything to blow, it's the opportunity to get the story out to the media so that anybody and everybody that saw something or knows something can come forward. After this amount of time there needs to be pressure on LE to back up the "not random..public doesn't need to fear" statement.We have to remember, though, that we have NO idea what the family is being told. If they are keeping quiet, it is for a reason. I truly believe that. I also truly believe that LE is keeping them updated, and that they know a lot more than we do.

[JerseyGirl]

I have no idea if this was a regularly scheduled visit, a random "drop by" visit, or what. But, do recall, from that picture from the day before I believe, where Raven is working on the computer, with Kaiden in his lap, the caption for that picture, as I recall, mentioned something to the effect of 'Kaiden helping Daddy with his hometeaching lesson.' So perhaps the visit on Tuesday night was planned, and on Monday Raven was preparing for that particular lesson/visitI'm sure it was scheduled, and if Raven is the perp., was part of the reason that night was chosen. The tighter the timeframe, the harder it will be to poke holes in it.

[JerseyGirl]

No I'm with you. I think he is smart. My husband has commented that he is a smart guy who sometimes didn't look so smart because he was looking for the easy way around things.Am I remembering correctly that your husband worked with Raven?

[newkid]

Am I remembering correctly that your husband worked with Raven?
Yes he did

[Moxie]

No I'm with you. I think he is smart. My husband has commented that he is a smart guy who sometimes didn't look so smart because he was looking for the easy way around things.
Please know that I am hoping against hope that Raven is not involved in Janet's murder. But since he is not talking, is completely silent, and has a defense attorney, I don't have a lot of faith that Raven is not involved with the death of his wife.

Given that, your husband's insight is interesting. I wonder - since Raven is viewed as being very smart, but tends to look for the easy way around things, would that include being deeply in debt and looking for an "easy" way out, such as maybe cashing in a life insurance policy on his wife? As opposed to getting a job to pay down his debts. Oh, wait... He can't get a job because the background check and references would show an arrest for felony embezzlement, and not many, if any, companies would hire someone with an embezzlement charge.

Would the "easy way out" be Janet's life insurance policy?

[golfmom]

Would the "easy way out" be Janet's life insurance policy?

If he was counting on a big pay day from the life insurance he miscalculated AGAIN just like the car fire.

[snapple]

We have to remember, though, that we have NO idea what the family is being told. If they are keeping quiet, it is for a reason. I truly believe that. I also truly believe that LE is keeping them updated, and that they know a lot more than we do.
You are right, we have no idea what the family is being told or NOT BEING TOLD. Like GM said, the road to a cold case is paved with good intentions.

[ewwwinteresting]

If he was counting on a big pay day from the life insurance he miscalculated AGAIN just like the car fire.
Well, aren't we just full of the good liners today GM:clap: !

I think you have hit it right twice today.

[ewwwinteresting]

Yes he did
Hey NK....do you know if Raven got into arguments or fights with anyone at work? Anybody see manic symptoms or depression or a temper?

[ewwwinteresting]

......i agree ..........sure LE can easily be telling the family to be patient....rest assured....we're doing all we can.......we're awaiting forensics.....blah blah blah...

...but...........cases DO go cold..............people move on to the next one........are they missing the media appeal on this one ? witnesses? how can they remember forever where they were on april 26th ?

...i respect the wishes of her family............but raven................i cannot understand for the life of me why HE has not spoken out ????his wife was murdered.............he didn't do it.(?)..........why isn't he all over the web with info..demanding answers...asking for help....defending himself...

...goood grief, even sp had janey online on his side.....

...raven has siblings....family.....where are their comments to the media ?comments in defense of raven ?
...correct me if i'm wrong, but the only thing i've seen attributed to raven's side has been a blatant begging for $$$$$'s through the church.........
I think we pretty much know why Raven isn't speaking out...or his family. Why give LE anything they don't have on him already?

My question....is ANYBODY else talking about this case except here at WS? I can't find one other site. So no internet coverage, no media coverage, LE tightlipped. I'm wondering if the family would have spoken out if we weren't? Would they have contacted the media? I'm thinking probably not. So, it goes back to SES's statement....the family must have faith and trust in LE. You just kinda have to hope it's not misplaced. They probably had faith and trust in Raven at one time too.

[Jenifred]

I was thinking about SES's post, I mean novel, and about the idea that blood can only be on the exterior of the car to coinside with Rooster's account of Raven's activity the night Janet was murdered. And I've come up with a few questions of my own. Anyone want to help me get this straight in my head?

1. What is the difference between a swabbing and trace? Is swabbing a general term for just sweeping an item to find if there is something on it? And does trace mean that they found something, like a small spot of blood, and they are going to get a sample to have analyzed?

2. If LE was looking for something inside of the car, why didn't they swab more items that Raven would have touched--like the gear shift, the steering wheel, radio knobs, directionals, etc. To see if there is any of Janet's blood there. And if there was, wouldn't this prove that Janet's murder took place before Raven left--since there are indications that he was driving, fiddling with the radio, putting his turn signal on, and doing all of the things that one would do while driving?

Now if LE found something inside of the car and that discredits Raven's account of what happened, then this is definately the rope from which Raven will be hung. Thanks again for the thoughful post, SES!

[JerseyGirl]

You are right, we have no idea what the family is being told or NOT BEING TOLD. Like GM said, the road to a cold case is paved with good intentions.I hope I didn't offend you. My opinion was only referring back to what Moxie had asked - that if we were in this situation, and LE asked us not to speak out, would we do it and risk messing things up? I only meant to state my beliefs about Janet's family's silence, and that I thought that there must be a good reason why they have not spoken to the media. If I offended you, I truly apologize.

[ewwwinteresting]

I hope I didn't offend you. My opinion was only referring back to what Moxie had asked - that if we were in this situation, and LE asked us not to speak out, would we do it and risk messing things up? I only meant to state my beliefs about Janet's family's silence, and that I thought that there must be a good reason why they have not spoken to the media. If I offended you, I truly apologize.
JG, I don't you offended snapple at all. I think snapple was just stating her opinion also.

[lauriej]

I was thinking about SES's post, I mean novel, and about the idea that blood can only be on the exterior of the car to coinside with Rooster's account of Raven's activity the night Janet was murdered. And I've come up with a few questions of my own. Anyone want to help me get this straight in my head?

1. What is the difference between a swabbing and trace? Is swabbing a general term for just sweeping an item to find if there is something on it? And does trace mean that they found something, like a small spot of blood, and they are going to get a sample to have analyzed?

2. If LE was looking for something inside of the car, why didn't they swab more items that Raven would have touched--like the gear shift, the steering wheel, radio knobs, directionals, etc. To see if there is any of Janet's blood there. And if there was, wouldn't this prove that Janet's murder took place before Raven left--since there are indications that he was driving, fiddling with the radio, putting his turn signal on, and doing all of the things that one would do while driving?

Now if LE found something inside of the car and that discredits Raven's account of what happened, then this is definately the rope from which Raven will be hung. Thanks again for the thoughful post, SES!
...i think it was jerseygirl that posted a very detailed post on the crime scene stuff....trace...swabbings....etc....and what it all means........( and i looked for it but can't find it...)
...please repost jersey...:)

...as far as we know.................LE STILL has the durango.....and let's hope they have gone over every square inch of it ......although i can't for the life of me understand why they take his word for it that the durango was the vehicle he was driving that night.......

[juliagoulia]

1. What is the difference between a swabbing and trace? Is swabbing a general term for just sweeping an item to find if there is something on it? And does trace mean that they found something, like a small spot of blood, and they are going to get a sample to have analyzed?

This info is directly quoted from: http://www.courttv.com/onair/shows/forensicfiles/glossary/6.html#s

Trace Evidence: Material deposited at a crime scene that can only be detected through a deliberate processing procedure. An individual entering any environment will deposit traces of his or her presence, and this material can be used as evidence. Common sources of trace evidence are hairs and fibers.

There is no definition for "swab" or "swabbing", so I think you're right--it is just the act of collecting evidence. I also looked on other forensic sites such as http://www.vifsm.org/overview/glossary.html and http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_glossary.htm.

[lauriej]

..thank you for this julia.....

..i read quite a few "google' sites, and was becoming more confused with each one....

...so 'trace' eveidence............hair...fibers.blood ..etc..something tangible for the csi people to work with...

...i'm a firm believer that that the NC crime lab is backlogged, and that once they begin to process the evidence from janet's murder, that they will zero in on the killer........

..the murderer may have thought he pulled off the perfect crime...........but evidence has a way of speaking louder than words..........

[snapple]

I hope I didn't offend you. My opinion was only referring back to what Moxie had asked - that if we were in this situation, and LE asked us not to speak out, would we do it and risk messing things up? I only meant to state my beliefs about Janet's family's silence, and that I thought that there must be a good reason why they have not spoken to the media. If I offended you, I truly apologize.
Oh no, not at all. Please don't apologize for stating your opinion. That is how we get discussions going and information out. I was just stating that we really don't know what LE is or isn't telling the family and that after 12 weeks, if LE wasn't telling me enough information to convince me they knew who did this to my family member and have collected evidence, I would start talking. I, too, hope there is a good reason why the family hasn't spoken up.

[ewwwinteresting]

..thank you for this julia.....

..i read quite a few "google' sites, and was becoming more confused with each one....

...so 'trace' eveidence............hair...fibers.blood ..etc..something tangible for the csi people to work with...

...i'm a firm believer that that the NC crime lab is backlogged, and that once they begin to process the evidence from janet's murder, that they will zero in on the killer........

..the murderer may have thought he pulled off the perfect crime...........but evidence has a way of speaking louder than words..........
And I am hoping the evidence in this case is screaming!!

[JerseyGirl]

...i think it was jerseygirl that posted a very detailed post on the crime scene stuff....trace...swabbings....etc....and what it all means........( and i looked for it but can't find it...)
...please repost jersey...:)

...as far as we know.................LE STILL has the durango.....and let's hope they have gone over every square inch of it ......although i can't for the life of me understand why they take his word for it that the durango was the vehicle he was driving that night.......I've also wondered this so many times. It's well-known to all of us now that the Abaroa's had at least 3 vehicles. The only thing that makes sense is if the other vehicles were not at the scene, (they were not listed as being there), and their actual whereabouts were accounted for by LE. Where could the vehicles been that would have satisfied LE as far as making it impossible that Raven drove them that night? Even if he had parked the VX somewhere with a sale sign, would that have prevented police from searching it? Very doubtful in my opinion. The only way that LE would have taken his word for it, IMO, is if the cars were verifiably out of commission somewhere or if they were behind lock and key, perhaps at a garage, etc.

[JerseyGirl]

Oh no, not at all. Please don't apologize for stating your opinion. That is how we get discussions going and information out. I was just stating that we really don't know what LE is or isn't telling the family and that after 12 weeks, if LE wasn't telling me enough information to convince me they knew who did this to my family member and have collected evidence, I would start talking. I, too, hope there is a good reason why the family hasn't spoken up.Thanks for your response. I'm glad we're okay. :)

[JerseyGirl]

...i think it was jerseygirl that posted a very detailed post on the crime scene stuff....trace...swabbings....etc....and what it all means........( and i looked for it but can't find it...)
...please repost jersey...:)I don't think that was me, was it? It could have been; I simply don't remember! lol. I'll look around though, and post if I find it.

[JerseyGirl]

Lauriej, is this the post of which you were thinking:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Murder of Janet (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=650178&postcount=764)

[golfmom]

I’ve been going back and re-reading, re-visiting old posts, documents, media reports, etc. (I actually find it really helpful – things were written, posted, etc., weeks ago, that over time, we’ve been able to clarify, modify, etc.). While doing so, of course, I ended up back at my old pal – the search warrant.

I often think of Rooster’s account of that evening – that Raven got home, tired to "save" Janet, ran to the Durango to get a cell phone, depositing blood on the side door, and on the Durango door, etc., eventually calling 911. While this information, via Rooster, is certainly not confirmable, I’ve always thought that that information came from somewhere, perhaps Raven himself. Totally fabricating that story, for the purposes of posting on WS is certainly possible, but I’ve always believed that someone actually told this to Rooster, or at least some parts of that story. Is this what Raven actually told LE happened, as far as the sequence of events? Who knows.
.

SES, this post had so much information in it, that it's taken me quite awhile to process. The whole post of Rooster describing the crime scene has been bugging me.

Rooster
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 100

This blood is from Raven Running to get his phone out of the durango...After he found Janet...tried to save her ...ran outside(getting blood on the door) to get his phone from the Durango. The door was locked...back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango.

This evidance will not "hang" Raven. LE knows all of this...still, Raven has not been arrested or charged or named a susspect. He is innocent!

Now notice in the above post that Rooster told us that Raven ran out to the DURANGO to get his cell phone. Coupled with LE's interest in the Durango confirms to me that Raven was indeed driving the Durango that evening. Many people have forwarded us info that Raven was indeed trying to sell the VX and had it parked elsewhere.

So what other vehicles would have been there that evening?

Where was the Accura?

[JerseyGirl]

Now notice in the above post that Rooster told us that Raven ran out to the DURANGO to get his cell phone. Coupled with LE's interest in the Durango confirms to me that Raven was indeed driving the Durango that evening. Many people have forwarded us info that Raven was indeed trying to sell the VX and had it parked elsewhere.Even so, since when does LE just take someone's word for it? If that VX was in any way accessible to Raven, (as in not locked in a mechanic's shop somewhere), then that vehicle should have been searched as well. If I use my Toyota to commit a murder, and then park it around the corner with a "For Sale" sign on it before LE arrives, do I get away with murder because I claimed to be driving the Honda that's sitting in the driveway? If that's the way that LE runs investigations down there, then I worry that this murder might never be solved.

[golfmom]

I just keep getting the feeling that Janet was trapped at the house.

[JerseyGirl]

I just keep getting the feeling that Janet was trapped at the house.Oh, I agree 100%. But I think that there must be a really good reason as to why the police only searched the Durango. I just don't think that having the VX parked on a busy corner with a sale sign on it would have been a good enough reason for LE. And as you asked earlier, where WAS that Acura???

Two vehicles unaccounted for. Where exactly were they on that night? Surely with 3 vehicles in the house, he wouldn't have two of them in a shop at the same time, leaving his wife and young child stranded, would he? And if so, why? Was soccer that important to risk leaving the two of them with no transportation, and no one to whom they could turn in case of an emergency?

Killer or not, he sure is a Class A jerk.

[ewwwinteresting]

Oh, I agree 100%. But I think that there must be a really good reason as to why the police only searched the Durango. I just don't think that having the VX parked on a busy corner with a sale sign on it would have been a good enough reason for LE. And as you asked earlier, where WAS that Acura???

Two vehicles unaccounted for. Where exactly were they on that night? Surely with 3 vehicles in the house, he wouldn't have two of them in a shop at the same time, leaving his wife and young child stranded, would he? And if so, why? Was soccer that important to risk leaving the two of them with no transportation, and no one to whom they could turn in case of an emergency?

Killer or not, he sure is a Class A jerk.
That statement sure can't be argued!

IMO, the ONLY reason for LE not to have searched the other vehicles is because they found the evidence in the Durango and there was no need to search the other vehicles. Other than that, I see no reason why ALL vehicles were not searched.

[lauriej]

Lauriej, is this the post of which you were thinking:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Murder of Janet (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=650178&postcount=764)
.......no.......but this is a good one also..thanks...:)

...it was a post that included a very detailed lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng entry....links.....etc..to 'csi' type stuff.......blood,, swabbing, trace, etc etc etc...

.........it's amazing actually....."back then"....( only a few months ago !) it wasn't that difficult to find a previous post........i'd say it's a very 'good thing' that we've come so far........

[JerseyGirl]

...it was a post that included a very detailed lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng entry....Oh. Are you sure it wasn't a post by SES? lol.

[JerseyGirl]

.......no.......but this is a good one also..thanks...:)

...it was a post that included a very detailed lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng entry....links.....etc..to 'csi' type stuff.......blood,, swabbing, trace, etc etc etc...Maybe somewhere on this thread:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - What is the average length of time befo (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25372)

[SouthEastSleuth]

Oh, I agree 100%. But I think that there must be a really good reason as to why the police only searched the Durango. I just don't think that having the VX parked on a busy corner with a sale sign on it would have been a good enough reason for LE. And as you asked earlier, where WAS that Acura???

Two vehicles unaccounted for. Where exactly were they on that night? Surely with 3 vehicles in the house, he wouldn't have two of them in a shop at the same time, leaving his wife and young child stranded, would he? And if so, why? Was soccer that important to risk leaving the two of them with no transportation, and no one to whom they could turn in case of an emergency?

Killer or not, he sure is a Class A jerk.
We have gone around and around about which vehicles were at the house that night. I believe 100% that the ONLY vehicle there, was the 1998 Dodge Durango. Nothing else makes any sense to me. I just know that if there were in fact other vehicles at that house, that LE would have searched each and every one. (OK, so I'm giving LE the benefit of a doubt here..)

That said, as JG points out, I'm not sure I would buy the "oh the VX is parked somewhere else, for sell" drama. In order for LE to rule out even the remotest possibility of any other vehicle being involved, on any level, they would have to have been 100% certain - meaning they verified the presence of the other vehicles and ascertained, with complete certainty, that the Durango was the only relevant vehicle that night.

So where were they that would allow LE to completely rule them out as relevant? Verifiably out of the area, with a friend, having service work done at a garage...? Who knows. But I do think those vehicles were "cleared" as VOIs (vehicles of interest, for lack of a better phrase. lol), by LE.

Just speculating - In thinking of various scenarios, surely the vehicles weren't in for routine service though. Both at the exact same time? Would seem odd. Plus, remember, the Abaroa's were under a good deal of financial strain, so as important as routine service may be, would that be the place to be spending money, when you aren't able to meet your rent obligations?

[SouthEastSleuth]

Oh. Are you sure it wasn't a post by SES? lol.

Hmmm. I'm trying to be BROAD minded and take the high road on that comment JG...... LOL

[JerseyGirl]

Hmmm. I'm trying to be BROAD minded and take the high road on that comment JG...... LOLYou sure you wouldn't care to elaborate for another 5 paragraphs or so? LOL. ;)

[JerseyGirl]

Just speculating - In thinking of various scenarios, surely the vehicles weren't in for routine service though. Both at the exact same time? Would seem odd. Plus, remember, the Abaroa's were under a good deal of financial strain, so as important as routing service may be, would that be the place to be spending money, when you aren't able to meet your rent obligations?That's a good point. When my husband and I were first starting out, we had some pretty bumpy financial times, (as many new couples do), and I don't think that I could have scraped enough cash together to service my car if I had wanted to. Unless Raven took the cars in for oil changes or something like that. You need to do that whether you can afford it or not. But I don't know why anyone in their right mind, (maybe that's the key), would put two cars in the shop for an oil change at the same time, leaving only one for himself while his wife and small child are stuck.

:laugh:

BTW, VOI? LOL - too funny.

[golfmom]

:laugh: You sure you wouldn't care to elaborate for another 5 paragraphs or so? LOL. ;)

Only five?

[JerseyGirl]

:laugh: :laugh:

Only five?

[SouthEastSleuth]

:laugh:

Only five?
Just wait until there's an actual TRIAL in this case - when I REALLY have lots to say! Then this overt envy and jealousy exhibited by JG and GM will really take a greater leap... so, so many words, and so very little time to use them ALL.....

[JerseyGirl]

Just wait until there's an actual TRIAL in this case - when I REALLY have lots to say! Then this overt envy and jealousy exhibited by JG and GM will really take a greater leap... LOLOLOL!!!

so, so many words, and so very little time to use them ALL.....Yet somehow, I suspect you'll find a way ...

[ewwwinteresting]

Just wait until there's an actual TRIAL in this case - when I REALLY have lots to say! Then this overt envy and jealousy exhibited by JG and GM will really take a greater leap... so, so many words, and so very little time to use them ALL.....
I know, it's just sickening the way they pick on you like that SES! I, for one, love your 7 to 10 page posts :)

[ewwwinteresting]

We have gone around and around about which vehicles were at the house that night. I believe 100% that the ONLY vehicle there, was the 1998 Dodge Durango. Nothing else makes any sense to me. I just know that if there were in fact other vehicles at that house, that LE would have searched each and every one. (OK, so I'm giving LE the benefit of a doubt here..)

That said, as JG points out, I'm not sure I would buy the "oh the VX is parked somewhere else, for sell" drama. In order for LE to rule out even the remotest possibility of any other vehicle being involved, on any level, they would have to have been 100% certain - meaning they verified the presence of the other vehicles and ascertained, with complete certainty, that the Durango was the only relevant vehicle that night.

So where were they that would allow LE to completely rule them out as relevant? Verifiably out of the area, with a friend, having service work done at a garage...? Who knows. But I do think those vehicles were "cleared" as VOIs (vehicles of interest, for lack of a better phrase. lol), by LE.

Just speculating - In thinking of various scenarios, surely the vehicles weren't in for routine service though. Both at the exact same time? Would seem odd. Plus, remember, the Abaroa's were under a good deal of financial strain, so as important as routine service may be, would that be the place to be spending money, when you aren't able to meet your rent obligations?
Ok, I don't believe there is any way Raven was having two vehicles and a motorcycle serviced the night Janet was murdered. You are right, SES, TOO ODD! IMO, either LE HAS searched them all or they have found what they needed. I keep forgetting that we only have access to a partial warrant (not all pages are there) and the discussion of another warrant on the Durango. Maybe the other vehicles are in a different search warrant?, maybe Raven gave permission to search the other vehicles and no search warrant was needed?, maybe (and this is what I hope) they found convincing evidence in the home/Durango and are waiting for the test results to pounce?

[Cydbaby]

The park ranger that found duct tape with long hair attached to it last week found more duct tape today, this time with a "red substance" on it...
This was posted on high profile cases:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases

[ewwwinteresting]

The park ranger that found duct tape with long hair attached to it last week found more duct tape today, this time with a "red substance" on it...
This was posted on high profile cases:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighProfileCases
Thanks for the information. Just out of curiousty, is there a particular reason you are posting this info on the Janet Abaroa forum?

[lauriej]

Oh. Are you sure it wasn't a post by SES? lol.
.......'ain't that the truth?!"...good one jersey..........:)

...however..........we all know we love SES, i know i'd love to be able to post a long and deatiled post like SES does.......complete with info and facts.....
...my posts are such a jumble i'm surprised half the time that any one gets my point other than myself...

...once we go to trial here...........if.....when....hopefully.......... how lucky we are to have SES to be our "captain obvious" and note the tiniest things.......and then take the time to lay it all out for the rest of us.........
...good stuff SES..............keep it coming.........:)

[JerseyGirl]

I believe that Natalee Holloway already has all of the media attention she needs, (and that ALL victims deserve). This forum was started to spotlight the case of a beautiful young mother that's been overlooked by the media.

Personally, I don't mind if someone wants to bring another overlooked case to my attention. And I would love for more people to join our discussions here about Janet's case. But not 30 minutes go by on the television without hearing about Natalee again. We all wish that Janet would have received the same benefit but she hasn't. For that reason, can we please try to keep Natalee out of this forum, and allow Janet to have this tiny bit of space that we've devoted to her? I mean no disrespect but Natalee's story is all over the place, and this is the one and only place that is dedicated to Janet, and her virtually unpublicized case.

[JerseyGirl]

...however..........we all know we love SES, i know i'd love to be able to post a long and deatiled post like SES does.......complete with info and facts.....I completely agree. I adore SES!

Just poking some fun at you, SES, but with nothing but respect and admiration for your intelligence and your insights. You are INVALUABLE to this forum!!! :blowkiss:

[SouthEastSleuth]

.......'ain't that the truth?!"...good one jersey..........:)

...however..........we all know we love SES, i know i'd love to be able to post a long and deatiled post like SES does.......complete with info and facts.....
...my posts are such a jumble i'm surprised half the time that any one gets my point other than myself...

...once we go to trial here...........if.....when....hopefully.......... how lucky we are to have SES to be our "captain obvious" and note the tiniest things.......and then take the time to lay it all out for the rest of us.........
...good stuff SES..............keep it coming.........:)
You're kind LJ, but there were many, many people on Janet's forum toiling away, finding info, digging up the facts, etc., WAY before I finally decided to even join! So all of YOU guys are the ones to be congratulated, each and every day... Besides, I like to think we operate as one big team here anyway, with a CLEAR goal for us all - finding Janet's murderer and doing any and all we can to assure justice for Janet!


ps- Wow, that was hardly even a paragraph! (must be too early in the morning or something!)

[bluegirl]

That's a good point. When my husband and I were first starting out, we had some pretty bumpy financial times, (as many new couples do), and I don't think that I could have scraped enough cash together to service my car if I had wanted to. Unless Raven took the cars in for oil changes or something like that. You need to do that whether you can afford it or not. But I don't know why anyone in their right mind, (maybe that's the key), would put two cars in the shop for an oil change at the same time, leaving only one for himself while his wife and small child are stuck.

:laugh:

BTW, VOI? LOL - too funny.

Let's talk about the money thing... besides not being able to afford their cars being serviced HOW in the world did they even afford to have three cars?
We all know that Raven's stories are all untrue.

[JerseyGirl]

Let's talk about the money thing... besides not being able to afford their cars being serviced HOW in the world did they even afford to have three cars?I guess that is the bigger question - how they could afford all of those vehicles, and why on Earth they would have needed three vehicles anyway. It certainly wasn't to insure that Janet and Kaiden wouldn't have been stranded with no transportation in the event that one of the cars needed service.

He couldn't have had a friend pick him up for the game, and leave the car for Janet that night?

[ewwwinteresting]

I guess that is the bigger question - how they could afford all of those vehicles, and why on Earth they would have needed three vehicles anyway. It certainly wasn't to insure that Janet and Kaiden wouldn't have been stranded with no transportation in the event that one of the cars needed service.

He couldn't have had a friend pick him up for the game, and leave the car for Janet that night?
Is it possible that Raven had the ability to think of someone but himself?:loser:

[ewwwinteresting]

Let's talk about the money thing... besides not being able to afford their cars being serviced HOW in the world did they even afford to have three cars?
We all know that Raven's stories are all untrue.
I don't think they ACTUALLY could afford three cars and a motorcycle. He had to steal to support his unable to support himself lifestyle. He was behind on his payments, wasn't current on the taxes and had to sell the motorcycle. All of this AFTER his second job ("embezzlementing") was taking away from him.

What I don't get is why the landlord and his church helped him out with the rent when he has so many "toys" that could have been sold for funds.:waitasec:

[snapple]

What I don't get is why the landlord and his church helped him out with the rent when he has so many "toys" that could have been sold for funds.:waitasec:
Good question! I would imagine that since we do know that Raven is quite the convincing liar:liar: , he probably came up with believable stories to get the help he "needed".

[ewwwinteresting]

Good question! I would imagine that since we do know that Raven is quite the convincing liar:liar: , he probably came up with believable stories to get the help he "needed".
Yes, I suspected he lied about his circumstances, but didn't his church leader and landlord notice all of his material possessions? He had hometeachers in his house. I'm sure they noticed all of the vehicles in the driveway...and, of course, we aren't talking about 1987 Ford Escorts (no offense to anybody that owns one). We are talking about a souped up, everything new and state of the art Vehicross, a souped up, state of the art Ducati, a new Acura and a not so old Durango! He also had the mountain bikes that would have brought sufficient funds to help pay his rent. What's wrong with, until we get on our feet, we can only have one car and have to carpool idea? But NO, why sacrifice or face the consequences of your decisions, when it is much easier to just have other people pay for your bad business decisions!

[JerseyGirl]

Good question! I would imagine that since we do know that Raven is quite the convincing liar:liar: , he probably came up with believable stories to get the help he "needed".And what makes this really horrible to me is that most of us have pride that makes it really difficult for us to ask for help. We want to be independent; we want to do the right thing, and it hurts us to think that we can't support our families. Did it never embarass Raven to ask for a hand-out?

Hopefully the next family that needs some help won't be handled suspiciously by those people that Raven scammed.

[JerseyGirl]

What's wrong with, until we get on our feet, we can only have one car and have to carpool idea?Well no, they needed at least two because Raven, the noble and doting father / devoted husband would never consider leaving his wife and young child alone at night without a car.

[ewwwinteresting]

And what makes this really horrible to me is that most of us have pride that makes it really difficult for us to ask for help. We want to be independent; we want to do the right thing, and it hurts us to think that we can't support our families. Did it never embarass Raven to ask for a hand-out?

Hopefully the next family that needs some help won't be handled suspiciously by those people that Raven scammed.
I'm guessing this wasn't embarrassing to Raven at all. This begging for free money seems like an Abaroa family trait. Janet must have been mortified!

[ewwwinteresting]

Well no, they needed at least two because Raven, the noble and doting father / devoted husband would never consider leaving his wife and young child alone at night without a car.
Silly me for thinking since it was Raven who caused this whole mess, it would be Raven that was the one carpooling, walking, using public transportation, riding his bike, leaving his dear wife and young child with the car:doh:

[JerseyGirl]

Silly me for thinking since it was Raven who caused this whole mess, it would be Raven that was the one carpooling, walking, using public transportation, riding his bike, leaving his dear wife and young child with the car:doh:You must be thinking of good fathers & husbands; the ones that actually put their families before themselves rather than just pretending to.

[bluegirl]

I don't think they ACTUALLY could afford three cars and a motorcycle. He had to steal to support his unable to support himself lifestyle. He was behind on his payments, wasn't current on the taxes and had to sell the motorcycle. All of this AFTER his second job ("embezzlementing") was taking away from him.

What I don't get is why the landlord and his church helped him out with the rent when he has so many "toys" that could have been sold for funds.:waitasec:

I understand that they couldn't ACTUALLY afford three cars.. but didn't Janet know that also. Just knowing Janet she would have made an effort to get rid of some of the "material items" so that she could be at home with the baby.
Heck that may be what started a fight and led to her death for all we know!

I'm just as confused as you are about the church helping them out when they had all that stuff. It just doesn't make any sense:(

[ItsMe]

I'm just as confused as you are about the church helping them out when they had all that stuff. It just doesn't make any sense

The LDS church will try to help anyone in need, for a time, until they can get back on their feet. It takes time to sell off things. So, the church will provide food and money for rent and utilities for the couple of months needed to get a job or sell off "toys". It's not as embarrassing as taking assistance from the government. There is no paper work to fill out or any lines to stand in. You just have to set up an appointment with the local Bishop. The meeting is discreet; the only person in the room beside the person in need is the Bishop. It's possible that Raven asked without Janet being there with him and told the Bishop they had lost their jobs. Or, it is possible that Raven coped to the whole embezzlement thing and started his repentance process and asked for assistance until he could find a job. The Bishop would probably still give them assistance thinking that Raven was a good person who made a wrong decision, but was making amends. I think it is entirely possible that Raven lied to Janet and told her that he didn't embezzle and this was all a big mix up that he needed to sort through. My guess is he'd been lying to her probably most of their lives together. So, he could have easily lied to the Bishop and landlord and she would have thought it was the truth. However, this will in no way deter their Bishop from helping other families in need.