Aruba-Breaking News Natalie Holloway

[NK57]

Thanks Shadow. I'll watch

Nancy

[ketel0ne]

Van Der Sloot's mother said she was confident her son had told authorities everything and that he was innocent.

"He was willing to help with anything, and he had a kind of quiet resolve -- I mean he said, 'Mom, don't be upset because everything will be fine. I know I am innocent, I didn't do anything,'" Anita Van Der Sloot told CNN.

"And in a very almost naive way he was very open with us, told us everything what happened," she said, adding that he has offered to speak with the Holloway family.

[ketel0ne]

Natalee Holloway Update: 4:06 PM EST

Government officials in Aruba are on the radio condemming Fox News for their reporting and requesting all journalists to cooperate with authorities and not report rumors. The Justice Minister is denying having told any American reporter that Natalee Holloway is dead.

They also insist that they do not know of a body being recovered at this time.

[kpass]

Van Der Sloot's mother said she was confident her son had told authorities everything and that he was innocent.

"He was willing to help with anything, and he had a kind of quiet resolve -- I mean he said, 'Mom, don't be upset because everything will be fine. I know I am innocent, I didn't do anything,'" Anita Van Der Sloot told CNN.

"And in a very almost naive way he was very open with us, told us everything what happened," she said, adding that he has offered to speak with the Holloway family.

Mrs. Van Der Sloot is in DENIAL! If he were "willing to help with anything," he would have done so in the beginning, BEFORE they pulled in the 2 Security Guards! This is just nuts.

[SauerKraut]

Natalee Holloway Update: 4:06 PM EST

Government officials in Aruba are on the radio condemming Fox News for their reporting and requesting all journalists to cooperate with authorities and not report rumors. The Justice Minister is denying having told any American reporter that Natalee Holloway is dead.

They also insist that they do not know of a body being recovered at this time.

What a mess! I hope her family has something solid being told to them. I can understand keeping the media away but this is too much.

Guaranteed, Joran is going to act like it was an accident and they were scared to tell what really happened. It may be hard to prove otherwise, little bastard. Crying to his mommy that he's innocent. Robert Chambers all over again!!!!!

[norcat]

i don't think so, but i could be wrong...
Thanks...I thought he looked a little chubby.

[chicoliving]

I saw a clip on Fox just a sec ago of a young man being led to a car. He had a plaid shirt on, light colored shirt...that looks like the same boy that was pictured with the two brothers on Fox's website last night.

[ketel0ne]

I saw a clip on Fox just a sec ago of a young man being led to a car. He had a plaid shirt on, light colored shirt...that looks like the same boy that was pictured with the two brothers on Fox's website last night.
That was Mr. Van Der Sloot. He is very tall.

[norcat]

Is that Joran in the blue shirt going into court on Fox News?
Just saw Joran on Fox News. It answers my question! So sad.

We just had an incident in our area regarding an Oregon student vacationing on our lake. Lots of drinking, etc. She had a fight with her boyfriend and disappeared from the houseboats. They searched for 2 days on the tiny island in the lake and finally found her dead. She had hung herself from one of the mazanita trees! She had just graduated from college, was starting a new job, etc. Apparently, the young woman had tried to commit suicide before. This is not the same, but the ending is the same. My heart goes out to the parents of both of the girls. We try to shield our children from something bad happening to them....as a mother, I don't think you ever stop. Sometimes a quick decision is the wrong decision.

[prism]

Sad , but little numb-nuts like Joran exist all over America too.
They exist, because they have been ignored by thier parents.

Since this lanky, gorky & dumb kid hit puberty the revolting "gangsta" lifestyle hit big on the airwaves. Parents, parents, parents :sick:

[nvfc]

The reason I think there are conflicting stories going on right now is what we are seeing is good cop bad cop so to speak. They have three and they are saying one is confessing. I am sure they are pressuring all three of them, that one of the others confessed and maybe noone has confessed at all.

At least this is why I think so many conflicting accounts are coming out.

[SauerKraut]

The reason I think there are conflicting stories going on right now is what we are seeing is good cop bad cop so to speak. They have three and they are saying one is confessing. I am sure they are pressuring all three of them, that one of the others confessed and maybe noone has confessed at all.

At least this is why I think so many conflicting accounts are coming out.

Daddy is trying to save little Joran's butt. I do blame the parents too, to a large degree. Saw it so much in my hometown while I was that age. Parents just turn the other cheek.

[vero]

The reason I think there are conflicting stories going on right now is what we are seeing is good cop bad cop so to speak. They have three and they are saying one is confessing. I am sure they are pressuring all three of them, that one of the others confessed and maybe noone has confessed at all.

At least this is why I think so many conflicting accounts are coming out.
Maybe they just don't have any experience dealing with all this publicity. Somebody may have let something slip, and now they are just trying to get back on track. It sounds like they have never suffered the media scrutiny of an investigation.

[sharon25]

the mother of the 17-year-old told FOX News authorities had not yet contacted them with this information. Croes also said that Natalee's father, who is divorced from her mother, was with investigators looking for the body.

These reports came after significant, and at times conflicting, developments with the five suspects being detained in the case.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html


this is very confusing..
they say 5 suspects now, instead of the 6 right?
cause didn't they arrest someone else besides the two security guards
and the 3 friends?

[englishleigh]

Just saw Joran on Fox News. It answers my question! So sad.

We just had an incident in our area regarding an Oregon student vacationing on our lake. Lots of drinking, etc. She had a fight with her boyfriend and disappeared from the houseboats. They searched for 2 days on the tiny island in the lake and finally found her dead. She had hung herself from one of the mazanita trees! She had just graduated from college, was starting a new job, etc. Apparently, the young woman had tried to commit suicide before. This is not the same, but the ending is the same. My heart goes out to the parents of both of the girls. We try to shield our children from something bad happening to them....as a mother, I don't think you ever stop. Sometimes a quick decision is the wrong decision.


I saw that on Greta the other week, but didn't know she'd been found. So sad.

[peggy]

Geraldo is going to have Natalee's biological father on at 5:00pm.

Is that 5 EST? Same time as Aruba time? This is so confusing to me now, what is going on, and why is father appearing on show, thought he was out looking for body, her family is saying she is still alive, suspect's mother (who I thought spoke as if she was lying on TV) saying her son is innocent and had told her everything he told LE; they probably practiced that scenario for about a week. So guess I until I hear something on mainstream TV, taking everything with grain of salt. Maybe everyone deciding to cash in on tabloids and talk shows now, how sad, where is Natalee -- she deserves better than this.

[nvfc]

Maybe they just don't have any experience dealing with all this publicity. Somebody may have let something slip, and now they are just trying to get back on track. It sounds like they have never suffered the media scrutiny of an investigation.
I agree vero, I was going to add that this Island is not use to anything on this scale and this is unprescedented.

[nvfc]

this is very confusing..
they say 5 suspects now, instead of the 6 right?
cause didn't they arrest someone else besides the two security guards
and the 3 friends?
I too had heard that a sixth person related to the community that Joran is from on the Island had been arrested.

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) - A judge ruled Saturday that police can continue to detain three young men arrested in the disappearance of an Alabama honors student, including one who reportedly admitted "something bad happened" to the woman they took to the beach after a night of drinking. The girl's family said Saturday that no body has been found.

David Kock, the lawyer representing a 17-year-old Dutch student reported to have flirted and fondled the girl before she went missing, said the boy has made no admissions to police.

"My client has not confessed to any crime," he told The Associated Press

[Columbo]

The reason I think there are conflicting stories going on right now is what we are seeing is good cop bad cop so to speak. They have three and they are saying one is confessing. I am sure they are pressuring all three of them, that one of the others confessed and maybe noone has confessed at all.

At least this is why I think so many conflicting accounts are coming out.
Very astute theory! Definitely a possibility.

[nvfc]

Sometimes first impressions are very important, in the case of Joran's attorney, is that the best his father could get? Look for better Lawyers down the road. BTW just saw attorney on FOX.

[newtv]

my guess is that the 2 brothers have told on joran-and the police have presented joran with what they have said..and joran is deciding what to do..
the conflicitng reports may be a ruse as the island is more worried about its image to tourists than to what has happened..
I think they want to carefully orchestrate the public announcement for their own benefit..and at this time they are strstegising damage control.

It is safe to say she is dead-she would have contacted someone by now and these are the last people she was with..there is no way she is alive.

The kid may still be lying about where she was left..they may have put her out to sea and are saying that they left her on the beach..this is the type of thing that may be going on..

Someone leaked the info as is the common thing..someone has told someone and the person who told is telling the truth-she is dead.
I think its pply a case of cultural differences..they do not have a direct "news" machine over thee. Everything is not as instant etc.

If it is true that something"bad" happened..it is true she is dead..and if it is true that joran said it then he is the killer.

[Sheromom]

Sad , but little numb-nuts like Joran exist all over America too.
They exist, because they have been ignored by thier parents.

Since this lanky, gorky & dumb kid hit puberty the revolting "gangsta" lifestyle hit big on the airwaves. Parents, parents, parents :sick:
Exactly. Raised by television instead of parents!

[i.b.nora]

The latest AP story:

Judge OKs Holding Men In Missing Teen CaseJudge OKs Holding Men In Missing Teen Case (http://www.wral.com/news/4597958/detail.html)

This article pretty much takes back everything that was reported in last 18 hours or so.

"A judge ruled Saturday that police can continue to detain three young men arrested in the disappearance of an Alabama honors student, including one who reportedly admitted "something bad happened" to the woman they took to the beach after a night of drinking. The girl's family said Saturday that no body has been found.

Antonio Carlo, the lawyer representing a 17-year-old Dutch student reported to have flirted and fondled the girl before she went missing, said the boy has made no admissions to police.

"My client has not confessed to any crime," he told The Associated Press."

"As rumors circulate on the island that Holloway's body was recovered, the family's spokeswoman Carla Caccavale told the AP: "The family confirms that a body has not been found.""

[Morag]

Maybe she refused to "put out" or get out of the car at the lighthouse, not the hotel--after all, it seems certain she never arrived at the hotel, so how, or why, would she refuse to get out?
Sometimes a liar will tell a partial truth and change the details enough to protect themselves. I think (if I can possibly base a logical thought on the flurry of rumors) that she was willing to make out or pet (remember that word, mature readers?) in the back seat, but she was unwilling to get out at the beach and do the deed. That's when something bad happened.

[Rachael]

IMO they are just waiting until they locate her body to confirm that she is dead. If one of them confessed that something bad happened to her it's pretty much saying she is no longer alive IMO. I try not to blame the parents in every case though. The boys are the ones who hurt Natalee..the parents didn't. :truce: Just my opinion though.

[DesertCookie]

the conflicitng reports may be a ruse as the island is more worried about its image to tourists than to what has happened..
I think they want to carefully orchestrate the public announcement for their own benefit..and at this time they are strstegising damage control.
I agree. I think Aruban officials know Natalee is dead but are desparate to preserve their image and so are strategizing as to how to present this mess to the world. Any bets no one will be held accountable? I think officials will conclude it was all a tragic accident.

Poor Natalee, my heart goes out to her family.

[newtv]

Maybe she refused to "put out" or get out of the car at the lighthouse, not the hotel--after all, it seems certain she never arrived at the hotel, so how, or why, would she refuse to get out?
Sometimes a liar will tell a partial truth and change the details enough to protect themselves. I think (if I can possibly base a logical thought on the flurry of rumors) that she was willing to make out or pet (remember that word, mature readers?) in the back seat, but she was unwilling to get out at the beach and do the deed. That's when something bad happened.
i think they gave her the rape drug and she died from it.

[Rachael]

Maybe she refused to "put out" or get out of the car at the lighthouse, not the hotel--after all, it seems certain she never arrived at the hotel, so how, or why, would she refuse to get out?
Sometimes a liar will tell a partial truth and change the details enough to protect themselves. I think (if I can possibly base a logical thought on the flurry of rumors) that she was willing to make out or pet (remember that word, mature readers?) in the back seat, but she was unwilling to get out at the beach and do the deed. That's when something bad happened.That is basically what I believe happened. They made out.. maybe went a little further than that. Natalee refused to have sex with Joran. Joran thought she was being a "tease" because she wouldn't go all the way and he did something to her (possibly rape and murder). I also wonder if maybe she was drugged and the combination of the drugs and alcohol killed her. She could have choked to death. Just speculating though. I feel terrible for her parents. What a nightmare!!!

[Sassygerl]

Exactly. Raised by television instead of parents!

How do we know this???? Just curious!

[Sassygerl]

i think they gave her the rape drug and she died from it.

Ahhhhh...that's what I have felt like all along, but I'm curious to know how much blood was found.

[Rachael]

i think they gave her the rape drug and she died from it.

That's what I was thinking. The combination of the date rape drug and alcohol could have made her vomit and she could have choked to death. Would that classify as manslaughter? I am not up on my laws.

[kpass]

Police investigating Holloway's disappearance arrested a man at dawn Saturday, but later said he had nothing to do with the case.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050610202409990005

[Rachael]

Ahhhhh...that's what I have felt like all along, but I'm curious to know how much blood was found.
I thought I read that the blood matched one of the boys (blood type I guess) and that they were checking to see if it also matched Natalee's. The took blood samples from her mother. IF the blood is Natalee's it could be from her being raped.

[Thundar]

Geraldo is going to have Natalee's biological father on at 5:00pm.I turned F news on and GR was on there with another man but I think he was a reporter too. Was the father on?

GR was talking about the reports coming out of Aruba as being criminally slanderous and he was going to get to the bottom of this terrible reporting. Did I wake up in Upside-Down Land this morning?

[Sheromom]

How do we know this???? Just curious!Sassygerl, We don't KNOW this, but unfortunately, it does happen often. I do know that my daughters would have a mighty hard time hanging out in bars, as this kid has obviously done OFTEN, even if the drinking age here was 18 (and especially if they were only 17)! That's because my husband and I have purposely arranged our schedules so that one of us is almost always at home with them. With his mother being a teacher, she should have been home in the evenings attending to her own child. It may be that she was unable to control him but her statements do not reflect that.

I hope I have not offended you. This is, of course, just my feeling of how this happened.

[Morag]

Exactly. Raised by television instead of parents!

My darling son is 16, and I'm sure we did a reasonably poor/good job in raising him so far, as did the approximately 150 or so families with teenagers whom we know well. Some of us hovered, and some of us left them to the tv, the computer, or the Xbox; some of the kids were confirmed or bar-mitzvahed, and some were left to find their own spiritual way. Some of them are drinking beer out behind the garage, and some of them are reading to the seniors at the nursing home.

And most, if not all, will find themselves in the back seat with a virgin who says no at some point.

But only a little psycho with "anger management issues" will rape and murder a girl under those conditions. Some parents are unlucky enough to bring those little psychos into the world, and nothing they did or didn't do would make a bit of difference.

[Rachael]

My darling son is 16, and I'm sure we did a reasonably poor/good job in raising him so far, as did the approximately 150 or so families with teenagers whom we know well. Some of us hovered, and some of us left them to the tv, the computer, or the Xbox; some of the kids were confirmed or bar-mitzvahed, and some were left to find their own spiritual way. Some of them are drinking beer out behind the garage, and some of them are reading to the seniors at the nursing home.

And most, if not all, will find themselves in the back seat with a virgin who says no at some point.

But only a little psycho with "anger management issues" will rape and murder a girl under those conditions. Some parents are unlucky enough to bring those little psychos into the world, and nothing they did or didn't do would make a bit of difference.

I agree. We should take the blame away from the parents, friends and chaperone's and blame the ones who actually committed the crime. Everyone blames the parents for everything. I have three kids and it really scares me. I also do not blame her parents for letting her go on the trip. :truce:

[newtv]

That's what I was thinking. The combination of the date rape drug and alcohol could have made her vomit and she could have choked to death. Would that classify as manslaughter? I am not up on my laws.
I think she was "played" with-seduced with fake goodwill - then possibly drugged-raped by all three (as in taking turns)..and left there-maybe they thot she would wake up in the morning.

or choked on her own vomit-who knows..but it should be considered a full fledged murder imo- accidental or not - once u cover it up - u deserve the worst.

[Rachael]

I think she was "played" with-seduced with fake goodwill - then possibly drugged-raped by all three (as in taking turns)..and left there-maybe they thot she would wake up in the morning.

or choked on her own vomit-who knows..but it should be considered a full fledged murder imo- accidental or not - once u cover it up - u deserve the worst.
The only problem with this scenario would be where is her body? It seems as if it is buried somewhere.

[newtv]

I agree. We should take the blame away from the parents, friends and chaperone's and blame the ones who actually committed the crime. Everyone blames the parents for everything. I have three kids and it really scares me. I also do not blame her parents for letting her go on the trip. :truce:
the truth is that millions of girls go on trips everyday and dont get killed-it is very hard not to let a kid go on a trip especially when she is an honor student and a good person in everyones eyes..if we all lived as if our kids were about to be killed it would be a sad world..unfortunately she is dead..but that should not stop anyone from letting their kids grow up.
I dont think its so much as blaming the parents in terms of how we raise children as observing that many kids to day (from privileged homes), are raised with alot of "toys" and not a lot of supervision.
Its more the fall out effect of a sick system of life..we do not value slow-delayed gratification and so on..I see the world as having a group of social cannibals in it- we chew each other up and we spit each other out.
Our society lacks the formality of past generations. There are no real boundaries anymore.
I dont know if blame is what anyone means- I think we are saying : What seems to be a way of life is..kids being raised by themselves while parents work to give them a privileged life.

I know this happens in lower income families but there is a real need for it-there is no real need to work your tail off so u can give your children a privileged life
only to never embrace their soul.

[Miss Daisey]

Any bets no one will be held accountable? I think officials will conclude it was all a tragic accident. .
I'll take that bet, DesertCookie. Nope, this isn't going away. Aruba is going to charge someone in the death of Natalee.

[Rachael]

the truth is that millions of girls go on trips everyday and dont get killed-it is very hard not to let a kid go on a trip especially when she is an honor student and a good person in everyones eyes..if we all lived as if our kids were about to be killed it would be a sad world..unfortunately she is dead..but that should not stop anyone from letting their kids grow up.
I dont think its so much as blaming the parents in terms of how we raise children as observing that many kids to day (from privileged homes), are raised with alot of "toys" and not a lot of supervision.
Its more the fall out effect of a sick system of life..we do not value slow-delayed gratification and so on..I see the world as having a group of social cannibals in it- we chew each other up and we spit each other out.
Our society lacks the formality of past generations. There are no real boundaries anymore.
I dont know if blame is what anyone means- I think we are saying : What seems to be a way of life is..kids being raised by themselves while parents work to give them a privileged life.

I know this happens in lower income families but there is a real need for it-there is no real need to work your tail off so u can give your children a privileged life
only to never embrace their soul.
I fear the day my kids are old enough to go on trips like this alone. It is hard to say no especially when you have a smart, reponsible child such as Natalee. I am sure never in a million years would her family expect something to happen to her on this trip with over 100 classmates. I have a hard time with parents (like the boys parents) being blamed for what their child has done. Quite frankly it scares me. We can do everything possible for our children. Once they grow up we are totally out of control.

[cynder]

Culturally speaking this is a Dutch (European) country. Drinking is not viewed the same in Europe as it is here - kids drink at a much younger age and generally speaking are more mature socially than US teens. Often kids graduate from school at younger ages and are involved in the adult world sooner. It is really not a big deal for his parents that he was out partying - he was about to graduate, maybe go off to Holland or Europe for school - he was being a typical 17 year old in Aruba.
Everywhere is not like the US - we have more "puritanical" views here than most of the world. My husband works for a French owned company (with primarily French or European employees) and they think we are culturally backward here. Middle class (and above) European kids in general are much more sophisticated, mature and socially adept than their US counterparts. Interns often come from Europe to WORK while 16 and 17 and are already in college level courses and handling very adult jobs in the service and hospitality fields. These "kids" are well traveled, extremely well mannered and mature in public and work situations, are comfortable living and working in a foreign country without any parental support or control, speak multiple languages, are very socially adept - ordering fine wines, elaborate meals, planning large events with assurance. They seem more like 25 or 30 year olds here and are often accorded the same priveleges, despite their not-yet-legal age.
I am not knocking the US, just trying to explain that unless you have had experience with European culture it is hard to understand how a 17 year old in Aruba may be far different from a 17 or 18 year old from the US.

[Sassygerl]

Sassygerl, We don't KNOW this, but unfortunately, it does happen often. I do know that my daughters would have a mighty hard time hanging out in bars, as this kid has obviously done OFTEN, even if the drinking age here was 18 (and especially if they were only 17)! That's because my husband and I have purposely arranged our schedules so that one of us is almost always at home with them. With his mother being a teacher, she should have been home in the evenings attending to her own child. It may be that she was unable to control him but her statements do not reflect that.

I hope I have not offended you. This is, of course, just my feeling of how this happened.

You have not offended me per say, but this is a Dutch culture. Afterall, when I lived in Holland there was no drinking age and we all hung out at bars at 14. Were my parents bad parents????? IMO no!!!! To keep me locked in would have caused even more problems. This is something all the kids did...it was our hangout, and actually there were more problems with teens getting trashy drunk in the States (when I moved back at 17) than there ever were in Holland. JMO of course, I just am NOT about to trash these parents since we don't know them, or really much about them. To say he was raised by TV is just UNFAIR!!!! May be surprising to some, but I can tell you many kids are at the "movies" when they're really at someones house partying it up here in the US. Thankfully, I was a wild child and hope to never be naive when it comes to what my boys are up to. I'm sure things will slip past me, but I'm pretty grounded when it comes to what kids are doing.

[Sassygerl]

That's because my husband and I have purposely arranged our schedules so that one of us is almost always at home with them

It's that "rarely never" window where something can happen, and I would hope you aren't bashed for it!

[newtv]

i dont think parents are responsible for their childrens actions when they are older..but when children live at home and are not adults yet..the only influences they have are their parents ..so they learned things somewhere..they have been allowed to behave in ways that do not support them in the real world.
They see things between their own parents..and so on..so to not consider the parents as a big variable in this is non-commen sensical..however, once your child crosses a line it no longer matters who caused it..now what matters is what is donr about it.

[scandi]

Maybe she refused to "put out" or get out of the car at the lighthouse, not the hotel--after all, it seems certain she never arrived at the hotel, so how, or why, would she refuse to get out?
Sometimes a liar will tell a partial truth and change the details enough to protect themselves. I think (if I can possibly base a logical thought on the flurry of rumors) that she was willing to make out or pet (remember that word, mature readers?) in the back seat, but she was unwilling to get out at the beach and do the deed. That's when something bad happened.

Hi Morag,

I had read somewhere that they were kissing and 'messing around' in the back seat of the car. I could see why she wouldn't want to get out of the car. If she were too imbibed to walk comfortably or feeling nauseated or had peed herself which could easily happen, she'd probably want to stay put. I also got the indication she kind of rebuffed him after the kissing, and am thinking the same as you, that maybe after all of the flirting she really didn't want to be there afterall. Especially with his two gawking friends in the front seat!

Somehow I've got this feeling that she was already woozy from too much to drink, was unknowingly slipped a pill while she was drinking in the bar. It was noticed she was not walking very good as she went out to the car, and as the pill slowly eeked into her system there easily could have been a fatal reaction between the drug and the booze. If she suddenly got sick, passed out and they suddenly realized she was dead, can you imagine their panic?

They were evidently {well, my feeling] all complicite if she was given some drug which caused a reaction like this, if they did. And this put them beyond the possibility of bringing her body back and saying it was an accident. At this point they knew they were all doomed, and dumped her somewhere they thought no one would ever find her and then went about concocting {sp} their story. All guilty by association. Would this be Murder 2?

Scandi

[newtv]

anyhow back to the issue at hand..I have no doubt she is dead-I have some doubt that her body will ever be found as they may have pushed her out to sea..

(they may have gone back to see if she was there a few days after when she was reported as missing-tho I think this i s a stretch..they must have known she was dead before they left)

anyhow its not as if we need to figure this part out but i think its safe to presume that natalee is in fact dead and that joran is the likely perpetrator.

I am confused as to why they are still holding the 2 security guards because I have no sense that they are involved..how could they be?? They were nowhere near the crime scene.

[CaliMom]

Has anyone seen the movie "Kids"? It's about young, urban youth who are out of control and their parents have no idea. Very disturbing movie. I did a lot of things in my youth that my parents still have NO IDEA about. They would drop me at the skating rink and me and my friends would pretend to go inside, then we would go prowl neighborhoods getting into trouble, meeting up with boys doing the same thing we were. I used all kinds of excuses as I got older, library, bowling etc. In hindsight it was so stoooopid, but I thought I was invincible, like most kids do. Luckily I never got in any legal trouble and am still alive. Unluckily Natalee is probably not. We all make stupid choices, it's just that for most of us they end up okay and we can say "I learned from that and won't do THAT again". Natalee can't.

It's NOT the parents fault, Natalee's fault or the friends or chaperones faults. The only person/people who's fault it is are the ones who took Natalee's life or caused her demise and covered it up. And I don't blame their parents either. :twocents:

[Camper]

I have only read page 1 and page 15, but have been following this case on TV like a hawk. It seemed last night that LE was holding back on the direct info that 'one of the three had confessed to killing her', out of what was inferred that her mom had not been told this 'yet'. Today is a different story, something 'bad happened', hmmm.

If it is the Dutch boy, he looks so much like the young man in NYC who said the girl attacked him violently/sexually, and he 'accidentally' killed her. IF it is the Dutch boy, isn't his father a high politcal figure in Aruba?? Someone help me out on that. Could that possibly be why all of a sudden it has gotten so quiet with any details?

The other family whose daughter disappeared traveling from Aruba to Curacao, seven years ago, are still working on finding their daughter. The cruise ship she disappeared from, handled the whole case badly, letting all of the passengers debark and NOT searching the entire ship for her. Good grief, remind me not to go to Aruba. Might be a good plan to have a computer chip implanted so at least they could find me!!

So sorry for the parents and for this young girl, who lost everything in life. My first thought was date rape drug too. I guess time will tell. Lots of checking to be done on this one, good luck to LE and $$$$$$$$$/politics here.:confused:



,

[Sheromom]

i dont think parents are responsible for their childrens actions when they are older..but when children live at home and are not adults yet..the only influences they have are their parents ..so they learned things somewhere..they have been allowed to behave in ways that do not support them in the real world.
They see things between their own parents..and so on..so to not consider the parents as a big variable in this is non-commen sensical..however, once your child crosses a line it no longer matters who caused it..now what matters is what is donr about it.
I agree. We had a case here, Elaine Sepulveda, where a 15 year old girl was killed by an 18 year old boy. I have never felt any blame towards the boy's family. They all worked with law enforcement. I know our kids will do things wrong but how the parents respond can make a huge difference.

Sassygerl, I cannot IMAGINE being in a bar at 14. I guess my feeling is that it is HOW the parents respond when there is trouble. I had a daughter who was caught shoplifting once. When the police asked me to come to the store and get her, I refused. I told him to put her in his car, ride her through town and we would pick her up at the station. The sad fact is, the mom in this case is trying to defend her son. Perhaps it is just denial. I guess I just feel strongly that IF it WAS my kid, I'd be encouraging the truth; not denying it.

No matter how we look at it, this case is sad for everyone involved. My heart aches for Natalee's parents.

[BigTex]

i dont think parents are responsible for their childrens actions when they are older..but when children live at home and are not adults yet..the only influences they have are their parents ..so they learned things somewhere..they have been allowed to behave in ways that do not support them in the real world.
They see things between their own parents..and so on..so to not consider the parents as a big variable in this is non-commen sensical..however, once your child crosses a line it no longer matters who caused it..now what matters is what is donr about it.
Hmm - I disagree that children's only influences are their parents when they live at home. Surely true for younger children because they lack the means to acquire other influences but once they are old enough they will be influenced by media such as TV and Radio/Music, school mates, news coverage, internet browsing etc etc ad nauseum. As parents we strive to teach our children to recognize bad influences but unfortunately our children will make mistakes just as we did as we grew up. I agree that parents give the foundation (well we hope they do anyway) but there comes a time that all kids will make decisions we disagree with regardless of how well we raised them and it is not fair to lay that poor decision at the parents feet (unless they ignored obvious warning signs that something was dreadfully wrong).

In a lot of ways it goes back to the age old Nature vs. Nurture argument - are murders born or created by the environment around them? The parents cannot be blamed without knowing a good deal about the environment in which the child was raised and I don't think any of us know that yet do we?

-BigTex

[Sheromom]

I also can't help but wonder, if this father is so prominent, WHY was his son allowed into bars? Wouldn't you think the bars owners would know him and be AFRAID to let him in at 17? Or, as Sassygerl mentioned, is drinking by all ages just commonly accepted in this place? Anyone know?

[newtv]

Hmm - I disagree that children's only influences are their parents when they live at home. Surely true for younger children because they lack the means to acquire other influences but once they are old enough they will be influenced by media such as TV and Radio/Music, school mates, news coverage, internet browsing etc etc ad nauseum. As parents we strive to teach our children to recognize bad influences but unfortunately our children will make mistakes just as we did as we grew up. I agree that parents give the foundation (well we hope they do anyway) but there comes a time that all kids will make decisions we disagree with regardless of how well we raised them and it is not fair to lay that poor decision at the parents feet (unless they ignored obvious warning signs that something was dreadfully wrong).

In a lot of ways it goes back to the age old Nature vs. Nurture argument - are murders born or created by the environment around them? The parents cannot be blamed without knowing a good deal about the environment in which the child was raised and I don't think any of us know that yet do we?

-BigTexi knew someone would pick that up..lol
I know their friends are influences, but what i mean is the primary caregivers are still the parents..so the parents have influence..if a parent believes everything a kid says without cross checking then the kid learns he or she can bluff easily..thats the kind of thing I am referring to..its still the parents while the child is a minor living at home..and when I said it is non common sense to leave them out - I meant as the primary influences - who they answer to.
If a parent is not home much the kid has the "set" from which to run his or her life in a different way than when a parent is always home..(one or other of the parents).

I dont mean in this case specifically since I dont know the kid or the parents.
but to leave parents out of the equation, (when children are under 18),is as erroneous as blaming them for whatever problem is at hand. We are a product of our environments- even when we dont want to be. Have you ever looked in the mirror only to see your own parent-the very one that you had the most conflict with?

It happens most in homes of privilege-homes where there is a negligence factor from poverty display a different type of symptoms is all.
So no need to think I am narrow about this - I am very wide..but to not hold the parents as primary influences (they are who gives the children rights to do things-whatever that is-they give the child the money-they can raise the child to think they are the only one who matters, and so on)..is not logical imo.

[nvfc]

I also can't help but wonder, if this father is so prominent, WHY was his son allowed into bars? Wouldn't you think the bars owners would know him and be AFRAID to let him in at 17? Or, as Sassygerl mentioned, is drinking by all ages just commonly accepted in this place? Anyone know?

Do not really understand this way of thinking. Look at George Bush's daughters.

[newtv]

I also can't help but wonder, if this father is so prominent, WHY was his son allowed into bars? Wouldn't you think the bars owners would know him and be AFRAID to let him in at 17? Or, as Sassygerl mentioned, is drinking by all ages just commonly accepted in this place? Anyone know?
There is real truth to the cultural differences. I have hung with dutch friends who come to canada and they are far more wild than me (I am referring to when i was in my late teens)..Knowing them over the years has helped me to understand they were not so much wild as i was trained to be restrained. It is normal for them-but not when they are here-then they look wild.
I dont think that is so much what troubles me but I am troubled that I have not heard a word from that boys father..it seems it would be important for him to say something not just the mother.

[concernedperson]

i knew someone would pick that up..lol
I know their friends are influences, but what i mean is the primary caregivers are still the parents..so the parents have influence..if a parent believes everything a kid says without cross checking then the kid learns he or she can bluff easily..thats the kind of thing I am referring to..its still the parents while the child is a minor living at home..and when I said it is non common sense to leave them out - I meant as the primary influences - who they answer to.
If a parent is not home much the kid has the "set" from which to run his or her life in a different way than when a parent is always home..(one or other of the parents).
I dont mean in this case specifically since I dont know the kid or the parents.
but to leave parents out of the equation is as erroneous as blaming them for the kid killing the girl..we are a product of our environments- even when we dont seemt o mirror what the parents are like.

It happens most in homes of privilege-homes where there is a negligence factor from poverty display a different type of symptoms is all.
So no need to think I am narrow about this - I am very wide..but to not hold the parents as primary influences (they are who gives the children rights to do things-whatever that is-they give the child the money-they can raise the child to think they are the only one who matters, and so on)..is not logical imo.

It is called dysfunctional families. Where some are privileged and others are outcast.Someone murdered Natalee and if it is a parental influence or not, someone is responsible. It is a God given choice to rise above that differential and not to murder, no matter what your personal issues are. I just don't believe that this is acceptable no matter what his influence was/is.

[Adella]

I also can't help but wonder, if this father is so prominent, WHY was his son allowed into bars? Wouldn't you think the bars owners would know him and be AFRAID to let him in at 17? Or, as Sassygerl mentioned, is drinking by all ages just commonly accepted in this place? Anyone know?
I can answer that. Under-age drinking is not commonly accepted BUT it is commonly DONE. I remember when I just turned 18 and started to go out, I'd see 'kids' that aren't even 16 yet hanging around night-clubs and bars. Asking for beer and beverages and actually being given them by older friends.

Till this day, you still see every now and then younger than 18 kids in bars & night-clubs....it's sad, but it's happening. Here in Aruba, bars & night-clubs are not as strict as they are in the States. There's a lot of tolerance going on.

[newtv]

Do not really understand this way of thinking. Look at George Bush's daughters.
exactly-it doesnt mean they are not developmentally like all kids that age..I was in more bars before I was of age than after..my worst phase of life was typical of most I know..but I was a brat who didnt get caught at lots of things..and my parents were never around..however I wasnt a child of privilege so whatever the consequences where they were mine to unravel.
There was a point in my life where I realized that if I got myself into any trouble no one would bail me out..this made me think twice about what I allowed to happen to me.
Its no fun becoming a drug addict if u know not one person will come and find u in the gutter..u will just remain there..its children who know their parents/or believe their parents will never let anything happen to them that can be more daring about what trouble they choose.

I was not a drug addict by the way..i was actually really typical-but felt really bad because I had no reference points for what typical was.

Its as if I knew there was no point to run away because I had no where to run and knew noone would come find me anyhow..

[JenMom]

This is going to seem out of place b/c it has taken me a while to get caught up on this thread...but here is the straight talk.

While the fact that these kids are from wealthy and/or prominent families makes this story "sexy" to the media, there are countless evil crimes being committed in lower economic circles as well....My husband worked in the ER of a metropolitan trauma center and the things that they saw there that never made the news would curl your hair....seriously, DESPICABLE, horrible crimes.

Wealth is not the issue. SIN is the issue. Evil, jealousy, greed, hatred, anger...these things exist REGARDLESS of income level.

Please stop bashing wealthy people, it looks like class envy and undermines your point.

[BigTex]

i knew someone would pick that up..lol
I know their friends are influences, but what i mean is the primary caregivers are still the parents..so the parents have influence..if a parent believes everything a kid says without cross checking then the kid learns he or she can bluff easily..thats the kind of thing I am referring to..its still the parents while the child is a minor living at home..and when I said it is non common sense to leave them out - I meant as the primary influences - who they answer to.
If a parent is not home much the kid has the "set" from which to run his or her life in a different way than when a parent is always home..(one or other of the parents).

I dont mean in this case specifically since I dont know the kid or the parents.
but to leave parents out of the equation, (when children are under 18),is as erroneous as blaming them for whatever problem is at hand. We are a product of our environments- even when we dont want to be. Have you ever looked in the mirror only to see your own parent-the very one that you had the most conflict with?

It happens most in homes of privilege-homes where there is a negligence factor from poverty display a different type of symptoms is all.
So no need to think I am narrow about this - I am very wide..but to not hold the parents as primary influences (they are who gives the children rights to do things-whatever that is-they give the child the money-they can raise the child to think they are the only one who matters, and so on)..is not logical imo. Ahhh - that is a bit different :) I agree that the parental influence is still a strong one (in both negative and positive ways) but the danger is that peers and the pressure they bring can override that influence - perhaps briefly but that is long enough to do something stupid. I think that parents have to cross check information our children tell us, we would be naive to think they do not falsify facts to bend situations to their advantage.

As for the negligent factor - I think it happens on both ends of the socio-economic scale. We have all seen the spoiled kids who behave as if there are no consequences but there are just as many children who are left to their own devices due to extreme poverty. I think it is a terrible thing to see no matter what - kids need us to set boundaries and guide them toward adulthood - even if they really really don't want us to :) :)

-BigTex

[cecileew]

I think like the others on the board are saying...she was hanging out with this guy for a couple of days, I am sure maybe she thought it was innocent but maybe he wanted more....when they started kissing in the car and she said no to him as far as going any further, he may have raped her. Once he raped her, he realized that he would not get away with it if she were left alive. I am sure he had his parents on his mind and freaked out, and since his friends were present they would surely be in trouble also if they witnessed the rape and did nothing about it. So maybe they killed her to cover up the rape.

Honestly, my first thought though was that she just got drunk(too drunk) and maybe had some drugs and since she was not used to this behavior died of alcohol poisoning and they freaked and hid her. I thought about the gentleman that they arrested the other day at dawn and maybe the kids told the cops where they got the certain drug from and they arrested him for that, no exactly connected to the murder, but arrested because of providing the drugs maybe. I don't know...just rambling!

[newtv]

Ahhh - that is a bit different :) I agree that the parental influence is still a strong one (in both negative and positive ways) but the danger is that peers and the pressure they bring can override that influence - perhaps briefly but that is long enough to do something stupid. I think that parents have to cross check information our children tell us, we would be naive to think they do not falsify facts to bend situations to their advantage.

As for the negligent factor - I think it happens on both ends of the socio-economic scale. We have all seen the spoiled kids who behave as if there are no consequences but there are just as many children who are left to their own devices due to extreme poverty. I think it is a terrible thing to see no matter what - kids need us to set boundaries and guide them toward adulthood - even if they really really don't want us to :) :)

-BigTex
what i mean by poverty level parenting is that often it is a lost cause..if u are on welfare and dont rise above it -the children often follow..if u work so as not to be on welfare u cannot earn enough to be home or make things easy for kids..
In a privileged home its nothing to have a mecedes at 16-and hundreds of dollars to spend - if a kid is from a poverty level home- the acting out is just different..they kill-they do all the same types of crimes but- the stealing might be for money for drugs wheras the privilieged kid has it from the parents. If the privileged kid did not have the money and the car and the sense of security that comes with privilege (u concern yourself with differnt things), he or she may not feel invincible.

Nelglect in a poverty level home produces a differnt psychology than neglect in a privileged home-in a privileged home ther will still be structure-money for university-high expectations-and even doing anything possible including bribery to keep your children focused on higher education etc.
If anyone thinks there is no difference I beg to differ.
It is always better to have resources than not-and its always better to be loved than not.
A child who is loved is always better off..and what is cross cultural is parents not loving their children. A drug addict who has been loved and is loved will have a much better chance at kicking the problem than a drug addict wothout resources and who has not been loved. (This part can happen in anyones home).

[packerdog]

She didn't just get drunk and die, they found blood in the car, tells me something about the way she died. They have not said if the blood was hers yet, but I have a feeling it is.

[sharon25]

I agree. We should take the blame away from the parents, friends and chaperone's and blame the ones who actually committed the crime. Everyone blames the parents for everything. I have three kids and it really scares me. I also do not blame her parents for letting her go on the trip. :truce:
I agree with Morag and you as well.

This is not a case of the parents simply looking the
other way, or bringing a known sex offender to their children.
This is a case where every year, the graduating class gets together
and plans a trip to Aruba.
Aruba is not a place that you hear about people being raped
and killed daily.
It's a beautiful place where the young adults can
have one more big get together before many of
them go their seperate ways to different colleges.

I see no problem with 18 year olds going down to a bar, if it's legal,
and having a drink (we send them to die in our wars afterall but that's a different story). I don't think that's what caused this at all.

I think he had his mind made up that he wanted her.
She was a conquest, either way, in his mind, he would have her.

The gov't and local LE are trying to deal with this
as best as they know how.
I think a lot of American news agencies are trying
to be the first to uncover the truth and in doing so
are actually, and unintentionally, making the Arubian LE
look bad.

I do think someone(s) will be charged with this crime.

Just my opinion. Thanks.

[Sassygerl]

She didn't just get drunk and die, they found blood in the car, tells me something about the way she died. They have not said if the blood was hers yet, but I have a feeling it is.

As someone said earlier, the blood could be from rape. Will be interesting to hear how much blood there was.

[sharon25]

Has anyone seen the movie "Kids"? It's about young, urban youth who are out of control and their parents have no idea. Very disturbing movie. I did a lot of things in my youth that my parents still have NO IDEA about. They would drop me at the skating rink and me and my friends would pretend to go inside, then we would go prowl neighborhoods getting into trouble, meeting up with boys doing the same thing we were. I used all kinds of excuses as I got older, library, bowling etc. In hindsight it was so stoooopid, but I thought I was invincible, like most kids do. Luckily I never got in any legal trouble and am still alive. Unluckily Natalee is probably not. We all make stupid choices, it's just that for most of us they end up okay and we can say "I learned from that and won't do THAT again". Natalee can't.

It's NOT the parents fault, Natalee's fault or the friends or chaperones faults. The only person/people who's fault it is are the ones who took Natalee's life or caused her demise and covered it up. And I don't blame their parents either. :twocents:
very well said!
I think Everyone's kids have done this.
Parents just don't realize it, and usually nothing happens
to their children for them to find out the truth.

I know I used to sneak out as well when I was younger.
And I would meet up with other kids that had snuck out as well!!
It was, IMO, amazingly easy for all of us to do this.
Does this mean we ALL had bad parents??
sure doesn't. did some of us have bad parents? yep.
But not ALL!!!

[newtv]

just a general note for all of us to remember- it is hard to type out the nuances of this conversation..I think we all are reasonable people who want the best for kids and humanity..I cannot cover all the ways I am thinking in a post..I am open to any information and I also know I have come to my morsels of wisdom honestly, without blame or bashing. Some things are just what they are-others are not.

Noone has a formula-good people make bad choices, bad people make good choices, etc. In fact I am pretty sure I only know one thing for sure-if we all loved out children-and really loved them in action, the world would be a better place. Love is active imo-it involves the muck in the middle-we dont even have to love anyone elses children-just our own- if we all did just that, therapy would be obsolete.

Loving children cannot involve over indulgence or neglect..those extremes will ruin kids-what a kid does with it will be differnt but it will never serve them in the real world..children who are loved somewhere in the middle of those 2 extremes become adults who love the same way..that is the gift that goes on giving..those who are neglected have a very small chance of making it into adulthood unharmed.
Those spoiled have a hard time in the world when it doesnt revolve around the family who did the spoiling. Indulgence is not pretty-neither is neglect.

[sharon25]

I can answer that. Under-age drinking is not commonly accepted BUT it is commonly DONE. I remember when I just turned 18 and started to go out, I'd see 'kids' that aren't even 16 yet hanging around night-clubs and bars. Asking for beer and beverages and actually being given them by older friends.

Till this day, you still see every now and then younger than 18 kids in bars & night-clubs....it's sad, but it's happening. Here in Aruba, bars & night-clubs are not as strict as they are in the States. There's a lot of tolerance going on.
I can assure you, that they are not that strict here in the states as well.

I'm not sure about every single state, but I know it was Very easy to drink underage in Maryland. I think Any state that allows people under the age of 21 (drinking age in the states), in a club that serves alcohol- you will ALWAYS have underage drinkers in that club or bar.

The only state that I've ever seen actually do something to really stop this was Pennsylvania. They have this law- where the drinking occurs in a seperate area from the rest of the bar/club. The only way to get in is with a bracelet- that you get from having a valid ID that was checked with a scanning machine!

[sharon25]

I think like the others on the board are saying...she was hanging out with this guy for a couple of days, I am sure maybe she thought it was innocent but maybe he wanted more....when they started kissing in the car and she said no to him as far as going any further, he may have raped her. Once he raped her, he realized that he would not get away with it if she were left alive. I am sure he had his parents on his mind and freaked out, and since his friends were present they would surely be in trouble also if they witnessed the rape and did nothing about it. So maybe they killed her to cover up the rape.

Honestly, my first thought though was that she just got drunk(too drunk) and maybe had some drugs and since she was not used to this behavior died of alcohol poisoning and they freaked and hid her. I thought about the gentleman that they arrested the other day at dawn and maybe the kids told the cops where they got the certain drug from and they arrested him for that, no exactly connected to the murder, but arrested because of providing the drugs maybe. I don't know...just rambling!
I don't think it happened that way.
I honestly think that if it was a real accidentally overdose, or accidental death, then one of the three would've cracked by now.

I honestly think he either pushed her, or slammed her onto the ground around the rocks where she could've easily hit her head hard enough to have caused massive injuries.

I'm also considering the idea that he strangled, or suffocated her.
I don't think it was an accident.

sorry if my post was morbid!

[cecileew]

I know, I hate to even speculate, just because it is so horrible to think about.


I don't think it happened that way.
I honestly think that if it was a real accidentally overdose, or accidental death, then one of the three would've cracked by now.

I honestly think he either pushed her, or slammed her onto the ground around the rocks where she could've easily hit her head hard enough to have caused massive injuries.

I'm also considering the idea that he strangled, or suffocated her.
I don't think it was an accident.

sorry if my post was morbid!

[close_enough]

My darling son is 16, and I'm sure we did a reasonably poor/good job in raising him so far, as did the approximately 150 or so families with teenagers whom we know well. Some of us hovered, and some of us left them to the tv, the computer, or the Xbox; some of the kids were confirmed or bar-mitzvahed, and some were left to find their own spiritual way. Some of them are drinking beer out behind the garage, and some of them are reading to the seniors at the nursing home.

And most, if not all, will find themselves in the back seat with a virgin who says no at some point.

But only a little psycho with "anger management issues" will rape and murder a girl under those conditions. Some parents are unlucky enough to bring those little psychos into the world, and nothing they did or didn't do would make a bit of difference.

i couldn't help but smile, while reading this... :) very well put..

trying to catch up here...did anyone see Geraldo??...i didn't...

[SoloFlyer]

This 17 year old boy was known in the casinos and bars, that is bothersome he also had a car and the driving age in Aruba is 18. His father wanting to become a judge but obviously looking the other way and condoning his son's living above the law does not set well with me. Couple that with the fascinating story the boy and his friends told about the security guards that were not on duty and the fact that these "upper class" boys that were last people seen with Natalee by multiple people and were believed and released while the lower class security guards were held based solely on the vague description provided by these first 3 witnesses/suspects; you may be on a wild goose chase.

The security guards were supposed to be fall guys for for upper crust boys, it's pretty obvious. I do believe the friends of Natalee were aware of the situation and that is why the FBI was called in very quickly and the press has been all over this. I hope they stay. These men falsely arrested deserve to be released and reimbursed for the harassment. LE needs to be investigated to find out why those boys were released and what took so long to find them to start with, why 36 hours? Until these questions are answered we need to stop all tourism to Aruba.
One more note the 17 year old was already in anger management classes per news reports!

[Sassygerl]

I think like the others on the board are saying...she was hanging out with this guy for a couple of days, I am sure maybe she thought it was innocent but maybe he wanted more....when they started kissing in the car and she said no to him as far as going any further, he may have raped her. Once he raped her, he realized that he would not get away with it if she were left alive. I am sure he had his parents on his mind and freaked out, and since his friends were present they would surely be in trouble also if they witnessed the rape and did nothing about it. So maybe they killed her to cover up the rape.

Honestly, my first thought though was that she just got drunk(too drunk) and maybe had some drugs and since she was not used to this behavior died of alcohol poisoning and they freaked and hid her. I thought about the gentleman that they arrested the other day at dawn and maybe the kids told the cops where they got the certain drug from and they arrested him for that, no exactly connected to the murder, but arrested because of providing the drugs maybe. I don't know...just rambling!

I still think this is a likely scenario...we shall see. While some say the suspects would have cracked by now or called 911, I am twice their age (nearly!) and have never accidentally killed someone. I'm NOT saying it was an accident, but if it was, whether they drugged her and didn't mean for this to happen, I can see how they'd freak. I can't say for certain what I would do for sure since I've never been put in that situation...thank god!!!!! You also have to factor in that they were drinking as well....were they sober the next day...probably, but they'd still be scared as all hell......JMO of course :)

[close_enough]

I turned F news on and GR was on there with another man but I think he was a reporter too. Was the father on?

GR was talking about the reports coming out of Aruba as being criminally slanderous and he was going to get to the bottom of this terrible reporting. Did I wake up in Upside-Down Land this morning?

lol @upside down land :D

i missed Geraldo....

[Beyond Belief]

If you were being sexual assaulted in the backseat of a car what would you do?
Scream, kick, fight, etc. If you were the "he" getting ready to satisfy your self and were confronted with a screaming, fighting female, what would you do? Fight for control with your fists, get your friends to help?

[close_enough]

I still think this is a likely scenario...we shall see. While some say the suspects would have cracked by now or called 911, I am twice their age (nearly!) and have never accidentally killed someone. I'm NOT saying it was an accident, but if it was, whether they drugged her and didn't mean for this to happen, I can see how they'd freak. I can't say for certain what I would do for sure since I've never been put in that situation...thank god!!!!! You also have to factor in that they were drinking as well....were they sober the next day...probably, but they'd still be scared as all hell......JMO of course :)

i agree...i bet all 3 were busy/nervous little boys the day after..ugh

[musicgirlms]

Just my humble opinion on some things that others have voiced...

First, I do agree with many of you that the European culture tends to be much more liberal toward drinking and sexuality, ESPECIALLY the Dutch. As a result, I imagine that in some ways Joran and his friends seemed much more sophisticated in certain ways to American girls. They speak multiple languages and have traveled the world and as I have witnessed in dating international men, they are often very good at exuding charm toward women.

That being said, Joran probably seemed exotic to Natalee. I grew up in an affluent neighborhood in Mississippi, was a straight A student, still a virgin at 18, etc. but that did not stop me from drinking when a freshman in college or flirting with the 'bad' boy types. They were the opposite of me! Oil and vinegar, etc.

I have thought all along that Natalee wanted something relatively innocent when she left the bar with Joran (e.g., kissing her holiday boyfriend on a beach) but that he perhaps expected much more. Hence, he got angry and perhaps forced something - got rough with her - and then opted to senselessly discard of her. (NOTE - In my past, I said "NO" many a time to wilder guys I may have kissed - and while perhaps wilder, they were not psychotic and treated me with the respect.)

It is a sad story if this is the case - that Joran got angry if he did not get his way and perhaps killed her. I do not think that all kids who drink or leave bars together have bad intentions. Let's not forget that they are young and to some degree may be sowing their wild oats - or experimenting with newfound freedom from parents. No, not all kids do that. No, they do not always make the right decisions. Yes, they have often been reared to know better. But, part of the joy of youth is spontenaity of living; part of the heartbreak is lessons learned the hard way; part of the memories can be lovely first kisses. Most scenarios like this do not end in murder.

I feel so sorry for Natalee's fate... she had so much more to offer in this world. For her parents' and friends' sake, I hope we soon get the truth as to what happened and some form of closure. It is heartbreaking.

[close_enough]

If you were being sexual assaulted in the backseat of a car what would you do?
Scream, kick, fight, etc. If you were the "he" getting ready to satisfy your self and were confronted with a screaming, fighting female, what would you do? Fight for control with your fists, get your friends to help?

chill bumps on my arms....he lost control, & his 2 buddies went along w/it all....
for a few days...LE let them go, after intially being questioned, but they watched them & their activity...it's a "tactic"...heard that on a show, yesterday...makes sense, since all three of them had the same story....wonder if any of them had, say.. scratch marks or any bruising, the next day...just thought of that....i would think LE looked?

[close_enough]

just a general note for all of us to remember- it is hard to type out the nuances of this conversation..I think we all are reasonable people who want the best for kids and humanity..I cannot cover all the ways I am thinking in a post..I am open to any information and I also know I have come to my morsels of wisdom honestly, without blame or bashing. Some things are just what they are-others are not.

Noone has a formula-good people make bad choices, bad people make good choices, etc. In fact I am pretty sure I only know one thing for sure-if we all loved out children-and really loved them in action, the world would be a better place. Love is active imo-it involves the muck in the middle-we dont even have to love anyone elses children-just our own- if we all did just that, therapy would be obsolete.

Loving children cannot involve over indulgence or neglect..those extremes will ruin kids-what a kid does with it will be differnt but it will never serve them in the real world..children who are loved somewhere in the middle of those 2 extremes become adults who love the same way..that is the gift that goes on giving..those who are neglected have a very small chance of making it into adulthood unharmed.
Those spoiled have a hard time in the world when it doesnt revolve around the family who did the spoiling. Indulgence is not pretty-neither is neglect.

how true!!

[Rachael]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.

I am not buying this theory sorry! I have even seen pictures of Natalee's house decorated with ribbons. It wasn't a mansion.

[indigomood]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.

when WHO helped her split to Venezuela?? Joran, the brothers, the guards, the flying monkeys from Oz, who? That was a bit over the edge imo...

[close_enough]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.

:eek:
damn!

[gardenmom]

I can answer that. Under-age drinking is not commonly accepted BUT it is commonly DONE. I remember when I just turned 18 and started to go out, I'd see 'kids' that aren't even 16 yet hanging around night-clubs and bars. Asking for beer and beverages and actually being given them by older friends.

Till this day, you still see every now and then younger than 18 kids in bars & night-clubs....it's sad, but it's happening. Here in Aruba, bars & night-clubs are not as strict as they are in the States. There's a lot of tolerance going on.
This really is no different than when I was 17-21. My friends and I got into bars because we flirted with the bouncers and bar tenders. My friend was a really hottie, so we could go anywhere. I don't see the difference here. I'm 37 now, so this was a good many years ago. Funny, but once I got married at 23 I grew out of the bar scene. I'm lucky though, to have lived through it. I went home with guys alone, split up from friends, all the time. Was it reckless, yes. Do I look back on it now and think how stupid I was? Yes. I don't blame Aruba at all. My parents could have kept a better grip on me, but once I was 18, what could they do? They could have kicked me out, but then they would really have no control. This is just unfortunate and heartbreaking, but it could have been any of us. Except of course, those on this thread who did not behave in this way and just don't get it. :doh:

[Beyond Belief]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.
In what trash, fiction paperback did you read that little pearl of wisdom?:doh:

[CaliKid]

Does anyone know when high and low tides were on Aruba on 5/30? I'm wondering if the 3 left her lying unconscious on the beach and the tide came in, drowned her and took her out to sea.

[gardenmom]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.
That's harsh. I see why your name is attack. :mad:

[indigomood]

That's harsh. I see why your name is attack. :mad:

check out the user profile, if true, maybe ptsd rears it's ugly head? :mad:

[bama-born]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.
Your comments about her mother and her hometown are COMPLETELY inappropriate and TOTALLY out of line. Have some respect for a family and a community that are enduring a great deal of stress and grief. Further, your comments are not representative of the character of this website and the many other members who demonstrate compassion and concern in their posts.

[Beyond Belief]

This is really a tough case. Why her? Drunk good looking girls are a dime a dozen there. Something got out of hand while they were alone with her. One of them made the sexual move and she fought back. I think she was struck a little too hard and it led to her death. I can see them beating up on her if she was screaming hysterically.

[nvfc]

check out the user profile, if true, maybe ptsd rears it's ugly head? :mad:
Yes I read he is from a Wall Strees firm? Is this new street lingo for Wall Street?

[Hadler]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.
this post has neither wits nor soul

[Adella]

Does anyone know when high and low tides were on Aruba on 5/30? I'm wondering if the 3 left her lying unconscious on the beach and the tide came in, drowned her and took her out to sea.
The answer might sound funny CaliKid but we have no such thing as high and low tides. Actually we do, of course we're surrounded by the sea, but whether it's high or low tide, you basically see no difference, or better said the difference is so small it can be exempt.

[Beyond Belief]

Has anyone heard if any the 5 suspects have been offered a book deal yet? i really hope Natalee shows up alive, I think she could make enough off of this story to retire at 19.

[indigomood]

Yes I read he is from a Wall Strees firm? Is this new street lingo for Wall Street?
Yep, sure is... right down the street from Venelueza (go back and read his post, he said it himself, LOL)

[Adella]

Your comments about her mother and her hometown are COMPLETELY inappropriate and TOTALLY out of line. Have some respect for a family and a community that are enduring a great deal of stress and grief. Further, your comments are not representative of the character of this website and the many other members who demonstrate compassion and concern in their posts.
I totally agree. These comments should just be ignored. I personally knew this lady (Joran's mother) because she comes a lot where I work at, and tell you the truth, she's a very nice lady. I feel bad for her if her son ends up being guilty, and if she's in denial I will totally understand, I mean...I don't have kids yet, but wouldn't any 'Mom' deny their kid being a murderer? I feel bad for her, and as much as I believe Joran will somehow end up guilty, I also believe he wouldn't be confessing this to his mother...not at all. By telling his mother: 'Everything will be all right' assures me he's trying to protect her from the truth. It would be too damn harsh to tell her he killed her, IF he did that is.

[Tigerlily]

WOW. More catching up I've had to do. Now all the earlier reports have been retracted and we don't know what's true or false. So was or wasn't there a 6th person arrested? Are they letting security guards go?

To comment on some folks' earlier threads regarding "spoiled rich kids," well let me assure you, I was a spoiled rich kid and I knew right from wrong. I grew up very lucky and priveleged and I attended a private school of more than 500 students. In all the years I was at that school and now 20 years since, not one "rich spoiled kid" has ever committed a crime of this magnitude, or any crime for that matter, or even gotten in a drunk driving accident. Don't blame it on "class." All teenagers drink - that's just a fact of life parents need to just deal with. At some point or another, teens will find away to experiment w/alcohol. Some will do it to excess, others will be smarter about it. Unfortunately, in this situation, the drinking most likely played a part in leading to a crime being committed. But this is a rare instance. I wish people would stop blaming the parents, stop blaming chaperones, and blaming Natalee. What good does this do? It doesn't make it go away or bring her home. The was an almost 18-year-old boy, this Joran kid, old enough to know right from wrong - and it seems he's covering for a crime or a bad accident but either way, he knew it was wrong. It's not the parents fault, it's his - no matter how spoiled or how much coddling the parents did for him. Plenty of kids are spoiled and coddled and never commit a crime especially murder.

I just wish Natalee's parents would get some closure to this nightmare.

[Adella]

WOW. More catching up I've had to do. Now all the earlier reports have been retracted and we don't know what's true or false. So was or wasn't there a 6th person arrested? Are they letting security guards go?

To comment on some folks' earlier threads regarding "spoiled rich kids," well let me assure you, I was a spoiled rich kid and I knew right from wrong. I grew up very lucky and priveleged and I attended a private school of more than 500 students. In all the years I was at that school and now 20 years since, not one "rich spoiled kid" has ever committed a crime of this magnitude, or any crime for that matter, or even gotten in a drunk driving accident. Don't blame it on "class." All teenagers drink - that's just a fact of life parents need to just deal with. At some point or another, teens will find away to experiment w/alcohol. Some will do it to excess, others will be smarter about it. Unfortunately, in this situation, the drinking most likely played a part in leading to a crime being committed. But this is a rare instance. I wish people would stop blaming the parents, stop blaming chaperones, and blaming Natalee. What good does this do? It doesn't make it go away or bring her home. The was an almost 18-year-old boy, this Joran kid, old enough to know right from wrong - and it seems he's covering for a crime or a bad accident but either way, he knew it was wrong. It's not the parents fault, it's his - no matter how spoiled or how much coddling the parents did for him. Plenty of kids are spoiled and coddled and never commit a crime especially murder.

I just wish Natalee's parents would get some closure to this nightmare.
Finally someone said what should have been said all along. You said it nicely Tigerlily, I have the same opinion.

[Tigerlily]

Geraldo on Fox now. Interviewing parents of Natalee.

Mom - siad she told LE last nite to have some more specific answers. All LE divulged to her was that they thought that Natalee was no longer alive.

Dad saying the blood in car was a rumor and first he heard. Says he's very frustrated w/all the conflicting reports and no one telling the anything.

Mom met with Joran earlier - said he was arrogant, cold. NOT the hnor student he'd been described. Dad said after 30 min being around this kid, knew he wasn't telling truth.

[Beyond Belief]

Heraldo has Nat's parents on, well Mom and step dad, i guess. This a very difficult interview for Heraldo. The parents need some answers. These parents did not know about blood samples. Mothers impression of Jaron. Arrogant.

Thought he was lying. Mother was told Jarod s record was impeccable.

Mother is staying strong. Appreciates the support. She is ready for the truth no matter what it is. Very courageous woman.

[Tigerlily]

More on Geraldo now...Mom is angry. Determined now to find her, she has to have it. Tired of no info, tired of rumors.

Prime Minister on now --- after commercial, speaking about case.

[lilpony]

I am watching Geraldo also. So are they saying a lot of the news if false. So is it still true that there was a confession of killing Natalie or not? This is getting confusing...

[gardenmom]

Has anyone heard if any the 5 suspects have been offered a book deal yet? i really hope Natalee shows up alive, I think she could make enough off of this story to retire at 19.
You're kidding, right?

[Beyond Belief]

Prime Minister of Aruba, heart with the family. As a parent I will guarantee them we will resolve this. I have great respect for the family, I understand their frustration. They want to know what happened and I am doing my upmost to find for them.
AFter the break Prime Minister will answer the question about the blood in the car.

[Beyond Belief]

You're kidding, right?yeah, fits with the rest of the rumors flying around.

[Adella]

I am watching Geraldo also. So are they saying a lot of the news if false. So is it still true that there was a confession of killing Natalie or not? This is getting confusing...
May I correct you? It has been confusing since the very beginning!

[lilpony]

May I correct you? It has been confusing since the very beginning!
I know, I am getting very confused. :confused:

[Tigerlily]

Prime minister on Fox - confirms blood found in Joran's car - cannot comment whose blood it is.

Said he be expects case to be wrapped up in next 2 days but won't elaborate on that for Geraldo.

[Beyond Belief]

Chief of Police told Prime Minister can confirm that blood was found. Prime Minister feels they will solve this case. They have to show the world they are capable of solving this case. He expects this case to be concluded in a few days. (He is just saying that.)

[MSM]

WOW. More catching up I've had to do. Now all the earlier reports have been retracted and we don't know what's true or false. So was or wasn't there a 6th person arrested? Are they letting security guards go?

To comment on some folks' earlier threads regarding "spoiled rich kids," well let me assure you, I was a spoiled rich kid and I knew right from wrong. I grew up very lucky and priveleged and I attended a private school of more than 500 students. In all the years I was at that school and now 20 years since, not one "rich spoiled kid" has ever committed a crime of this magnitude, or any crime for that matter, or even gotten in a drunk driving accident. Don't blame it on "class." All teenagers drink - that's just a fact of life parents need to just deal with. At some point or another, teens will find away to experiment w/alcohol. Some will do it to excess, others will be smarter about it. Unfortunately, in this situation, the drinking most likely played a part in leading to a crime being committed. But this is a rare instance. I wish people would stop blaming the parents, stop blaming chaperones, and blaming Natalee. What good does this do? It doesn't make it go away or bring her home. The was an almost 18-year-old boy, this Joran kid, old enough to know right from wrong - and it seems he's covering for a crime or a bad accident but either way, he knew it was wrong. It's not the parents fault, it's his - no matter how spoiled or how much coddling the parents did for him. Plenty of kids are spoiled and coddled and never commit a crime especially murder.

I just wish Natalee's parents would get some closure to this nightmare.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you Tigerlily. It is a little offensive to those of us who were fortunate enough to grow up with financially successful parents when people keep saying things like "typical spoiled rich brat." My high school was also filled with well-off kids and there were only a handful that I would describe that way. I do agree that rich parents made it easier for those few kids to get away with some bad stuff, but IMO growing up wealthy did not give them sociopathic tendencies. They were more likely born that way.

[indigomood]

Does anyone know when high and low tides were on Aruba on 5/30? I'm wondering if the 3 left her lying unconscious on the beach and the tide came in, drowned her and took her out to sea.

http://www.meteo.an/

Meteorological service of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba

There are links at this site, all weather related of course, but unfortunately I am not able to locate a tide chart. I will keep looking.

[Beyond Belief]

Heraldo Points Towards Van Der Sloot.

[T-Rex]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the almost-pushing match. Here's a kid who's used to playing big man on the island--priveleged, popular, holding court at the casino. And along comes a group of even more priveleged kids, who not only take over, but tell him to step off.

[Adella]

http://www.meteo.an/

Meteorological service of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba

There are links at this site, all weather related of course, but unfortunately I am not able to locate a tide chart. I will keep looking.
I already answered on that indigomood: post 344. Thanx for looking.

[MSM]

I really, really hope that they find Natalee soon so that her family can get some closure and take her home. It must be so horrible for them as this wears on, in a foreign country with most of their friends and family not there with them for support. It is so sad to hear all of the news about possible confessions but at least maybe it will bring an end to her parents' confusion.

[MSM]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the almost-pushing match. Here's a kid who's used to playing big man on the island--priveleged, popular, holding court at the casino. And along comes a group of even more priveleged kids, who not only take over, but tell him to step off.
From the interview with Natalee's male friend (last name Reynolds?) it sounds like some of the guys she was with saw right through him from the get go. Too bad they were not able to chase him off. :mad:

[Tigerlily]

T-rex , I've heard about that - is there a source for that story? I would think too they would want more info about a scuffle that took place b/t Joran & the Mt Brook boys.

[indigomood]

I already answered on that indigomood: post 344. Thanx for looking.
no problemo :)

[joanofarc]

This is really a tough case. Why her? Drunk good looking girls are a dime a dozen there. Something got out of hand while they were alone with her. One of them made the sexual move and she fought back. I think she was struck a little too hard and it led to her death. I can see them beating up on her if she was screaming hysterically.This is a good question BB...

My thoughts are going back to the "gambling" and "jostling" earlier that the Aruba students had with the boys from Mt. Brook inside the hotel casino...

JVDS was captured by someone taking pictures to have been seen inside the hotel casino gambling, wearing the same clothes, for hours or days on end...Why did he have a little "gambling" problem in addition to his to "alcohol", and "anger management" issues.

The group from Mt. Brook was reported to be a "loud group" who were sometimes in the Casino well before noon drinking and gambling....okay SO lets get our priorities straight here for the "boys" ....is it making money or drinking or both...??

IMO throw in some cheering "party" home girls and you have the makings of a powerful "testosterone" struggle....IMO

I wonder if there was some sort of "turf" war that could of possibly erupted between the U.S. boys and boys from Aruba. Might this explain why Natalie was seduced and subsequently murdered?? Something to ponder....

[Sassygerl]

She WAS Mickey-Finn drugged, then used as a punch-board. The pure flower of the South awoke and felt sodden. She certainly couldn't face her debutante, phony mother who would have been mortified back home in the golden Ghetto of Birmingham. That's when they helped her split to Venelueza where she could gather her wits and soul.

Do not feed.....Cass where's that sign??????

[jilly]

The security guards were supposed to be fall guys for for upper crust boys, it's pretty obvious. I do believe the friends of Natalee were aware of the situation and that is why the FBI was called in very quickly and the press has been all over this. I hope they stay. These men falsely arrested deserve to be released and reimbursed for the harassment. LE needs to be investigated to find out why those boys were released and what took so long to find them to start with, why 36 hours? Until these questions are answered we need to stop all tourism to Aruba.
One more note the 17 year old was already in anger management classes per news reports!

Yes...very astute....this makes perfect sense! What do you make about the FBI divers showing up and leaving without getting into the water?

When I saw one of the security guard's girlfriend and another's mother, I believed them on the spot. I wonder why they haven't released them yet.

[Beyond Belief]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the almost-pushing match. Here's a kid who's used to playing big man on the island--priveleged, popular, holding court at the casino. And along comes a group of even more priveleged kids, who not only take over, but tell him to step off.
Those homeboys see 13000 tourists a day on that island. Alot more "priviledged than some kids from Alabama".

[Beyond Belief]

This is a good question BB...

My thoughts are going back to the "gambling" and "jostling" earlier that the Aruba students had with the boys from Mt. Brook inside the hotel casino...

JVDS was captured by someone taking pictures to have been seen inside the hotel casino gambling, wearing the same clothes, for hours or days on end...Why did he have a little "gambling" problem in addition to his to "alcohol", and "anger management" issues.

The group from Mt. Brook was reported to be a "loud group" who were sometimes in the Casino well before noon drinking and gambling....okay SO lets get our priorities straight for the "boys" here....is it making money or drinking or both...??

IMO throw in some cheering "party" home girls and you have the makings of a powerful "testosterone" struggle....IMO

I wonder if there was some sort of "turf" war that could of possibly erupted between the U.S. boys and boys from Aruba. Might this explain why Natalie was seduced and subsequently murdered?? Something to ponder....
Interesting analysis. I didn't know anything about issues between the homeboy and the Alabama kids.

[Tigerlily]

I hope tomorrow brings some answers for this family. I just have a feeling they won't be happy ones.

i'm gonna have to sign off for tonight. I am pregnant w/my 1st baby and the fatigue my is getting to me.

I'll tell ya, normally DH doesn't get into these cases like I do but w/this one he's mesmerized. As parents-to-be it's made us do a lot of talking about discipline, parenting issues and all kinds of issues, so that's been good. I guess we are in for 18++ years of worry.

[indigomood]

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/7.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs16/10.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs1/9.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/15.gif

and one good turn deserves another....

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/5.gif

[Shadow205]

I was just thinking about why they have not released the Security Guards. If it is true that they were dealing a little on the side, I think it was posted that they were known drug dealers.Perhaps they have sold to these three boys in the past. Who knows, maybe even that day. When things went wrong with Natalee and "something bad happened" and they were trying to think of someone to pin it on if need be, the security guards were fresh in their minds.

[musicgirlms]

The Mountain Brook group had probably made their presence known, but I think that whatever attracted Natalee to Joran had more to do with the dynamics between the two of them.

And, I still think whatever horrible thing happened to her after having left with them had to do with the boy or boys wanting to play rough with a girl who was not looking for that... combined with drinking, etc.

[lilpony]

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/7.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs16/10.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs1/9.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/15.gif

and one good turn deserves another....

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/5.gif
Yep, those are good ones....:D :D :D

[Beyond Belief]

The Mountain Brook group had probably made their presence known, but I think that whatever attracted Natalee to Joran had more to do with the dynamics between the two of them.

And, I still think whatever horrible thing happened to her after having left with them had to do with the boy or boys wanting to play rough with a girl who was not looking for that... combined with drinking, etc.I think we pretty much have this solved. I wonder whats taking the LE so long?

[Shadow205]

I think we pretty much have this solved. I wonder whats taking the LE so long?
Because we don't have to prove it.

[musicgirlms]

I think we pretty much have this solved. I wonder whats taking the LE so long?
I have to agree with you. It must be SO frustrating for her parents, especially since they really have very little bit of information from when this thing got started. A lot of the delay probably has to do with Joran's father's position. Initially, the cops probably wanted to believe the boys based on their family's prominence.

[indigomood]

Because we don't have to prove it.
you have a point there... but if you part your hair differently, no one will ever notice (sorry, bad joke!). But that is a good point that you made...

[Rachael]

Where did they say that Joran wore the same clothes for days at a time? I remember reading that one of the girls from Natalee's trip said that Joran was wearing the same clothes that night (the days she disappeared) as he was wearing in a picture on the C&C's website the week before. I took this as he was wearing the same outfit he wore a week earlier. I don't see a big deal in that.

Another thing.. I hope I can explain this the correct way. The boys are locals. I am sure they hang around the hotels during the time that the graduating seniors come to the island hoping to get some action. Some girls tend to go a bit wild (not saying this about Natalee because what I read she was a virgin) during their "senior week". I am sure the boys realize this so they try to scout the girls out. They probably look for a cute, naive girl that they can pressure into sex. It is wrong but I am sure they are not the only scumbags who do this. After seeing pictures on Joran's blog he probably tries to take pictures of different girls to put on his blog to make himself look good. Just my opinion though.

[Shadow205]

you have a point there... but if you part your hair differently, no one will ever notice (sorry, bad joke!). But that is a good point that you made...

:laugh:

[gardenmom]

I hope tomorrow brings some answers for this family. I just have a feeling they won't be happy ones.

i'm gonna have to sign off for tonight. I am pregnant w/my 1st baby and the fatigue my is getting to me.

I'll tell ya, normally DH doesn't get into these cases like I do but w/this one he's mesmerized. As parents-to-be it's made us do a lot of talking about discipline, parenting issues and all kinds of issues, so that's been good. I guess we are in for 18++ years of worry.
Congrats! How far along are you?

[wcpacific]

This is a good question BB...

My thoughts are going back to the "gambling" and "jostling" earlier that the Aruba students had with the boys from Mt. Brook inside the hotel casino...

JVDS was captured by someone taking pictures to have been seen inside the hotel casino gambling, wearing the same clothes, for hours or days on end...Why did he have a little "gambling" problem in addition to his to "alcohol", and "anger management" issues.

The group from Mt. Brook was reported to be a "loud group" who were sometimes in the Casino well before noon drinking and gambling....okay SO lets get our priorities straight here for the "boys" ....is it making money or drinking or both...??

IMO throw in some cheering "party" home girls and you have the makings of a powerful "testosterone" struggle....IMO

I wonder if there was some sort of "turf" war that could of possibly erupted between the U.S. boys and boys from Aruba. Might this explain why Natalie was seduced and subsequently murdered?? Something to ponder....
Very good point joanofarc! This type of situation could have easily lead into a "testosterone" driven serious problem in that bar between the usa males vs. aruba males.

I just wonder, really wonder why this girl, Natalie felt so comfortable to leave with these 3 boys. :waitasec: I thought her friends tried to talk her out of leaving with these them?? This is perhaps the most questionable thing about this whole situation.

[musicgirlms]

I imagine she felt that false sense of security kind of comfort. She was perhaps a bit naive, apparently had been drinking and probably had had good experiences with other boys her age in the past...

[Sassygerl]

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/7.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs16/10.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs1/9.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/15.gif

and one good turn deserves another....

http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/5.gif

Thank you!!!! :D That's exactly what I was looking for, and then some :D

[Sassygerl]

I imagine she felt that false sense of security kind of comfort. She was perhaps a bit naive, apparently had been drinking and probably had had good experiences with other boys her age in the past...

Absolutely...I think many of us can relate, and we are all here today. My prayers are with Natalee and her family.

[indigomood]

I hope tomorrow brings some answers for this family. I just have a feeling they won't be happy ones.

i'm gonna have to sign off for tonight. I am pregnant w/my 1st baby and the fatigue my is getting to me.

I'll tell ya, normally DH doesn't get into these cases like I do but w/this one he's mesmerized. As parents-to-be it's made us do a lot of talking about discipline, parenting issues and all kinds of issues, so that's been good. I guess we are in for 18++ years of worry.

Great news Tigerlily! :blowkiss: Congratulations. Good news is a child will bring you a lot of joy, as well as the worries. It's not an 18 year commitment, the moment you set eyes on your newborn you will be wrapped around their little finger. I wish I could tell ya that the worrying ends when they turn 18, but the last statistic I heard was, you stop worrying about them the day you die... :doh:

[lilpony]

My heart goes out to Natalee's parents. I feel so bad for them. I would never want to be in there position. Her Mom looks like she could collapse at any time.
I would never want to be the parents of Son, who could do something like this. I couldn't even imagine the grief and horror, knowing your son did something like this....It's just so senseless and sad...:( :(

[indigomood]

Thank you!!!! :D That's exactly what I was looking for, and then some :D
sure thing, glad to be of help...
:laugh: you don't think the dumba** was too harsh do ya?? ;)

[lilpony]

Great news Tigerlily! :blowkiss: Congratulations. Good news is a child will bring you a lot of joy, as well as the worries. It's not an 18 year commitment, the moment you set eyes on your newborn you will be wrapped around their little finger. I wish I could tell ya that the worrying ends when they turn 18, but the last statistic I heard was, you stop worrying about them the day you die... :doh:
That is so true. I don't think you ever stop worrying about them. My two sons are 26 and 23 I still worry about them all the time. One is even married, still worry. The younger one is single, of course I worry about him. Probably even more.

[KatherineQ]

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