Shasta and Dylan Continued 6/17

[chicoliving]

Continue discussion here...

[KatzHome]

Hi Chici ~ good "seeing" you! Take care sweetie ~ great job & congratulations! :blowkiss:

[alexia]

I get the impression that this started at the BBQ. they were gagged then and as things started happening some guests left... not knowing what the actual outcome was going to be.
and as a tight knit group... no one is talking.

I also think the kids are adopted and elsewhere. but eventually they will run away are resurface.

the drug lifestyle is a weird one.

[dragonfly]

I see from the earlier posts the added information about the victims being gagged. Would this be congruent with earlier thoughts that the victims were interogatted... or if gagged it would appear more execution style murder - Simple revenge!

[Liz]

I had attributed the sparceness of new info mainly to the FBI's involvement in the case. (Aren't the FBI people usually pretty tight lipped?) It was weird the way the case dropped right off the national radar, faster than an Idaho hot potato!

It appears that the Spokesman-Review and Sheriff Rocky Watson had a bit of a falling out back in January. The CdA Press apparently isn't in the business of ruffling any feathers with the K.C. Sheriff's Dept. Even if it means depriving their readership of their right to know any up to date information, regarding criminal cases in their community. Sounds like they want to go along and get along.

Readers' right to know drives news report (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:g_SAJz5GHtEJ:216.229.182.49/local/story.asp%3FID%3D47393+s-r.com+%2B+Sheriff+watson+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Police agencies are in the business of keeping investigative information close until they have developed all of the facts necessary to build a case. That is a fundamental value in law enforcement.

But newspapers are governed by a different set of values. Our values are built around the most basic principle of American journalism – that the press serves as a watchdog of government. Further, our values begin with the public's right to know, not the public's right to wait for a press release. At The Spokesman-Review, our internal news protocol begins with the statement "We tell people what we know when we know it."

But seizing on the Press's policy as evidence that The Spokesman-Review is uncaring of the North Idaho community, the sheriff's department and Coeur d'Alene Police Department apparently have decided they no longer will talk to our reporters, will not return our calls or provide us with public safety information.


If the above policy is still adhered to by the K.C. Sheriff's Dept, maybe this is another reason for a lack of any real (new) information in this case.

Because, all we're getting is a bunch of nothing, or iow, "blah, blah, blah".

So, could the national media have just thrown up their collective hands in disgust; and given up on trying to get info on this case? Were they told point blank to 'just go away'? Or what? I really don't understand that aspect at all; nor do I recall anything like it happening before.

Also, why isn't anyone in that community standing on a rooftop and demanding pertinent information, regarding their families' safety and security? Is everybody in the CdA area too intimidated by law enforcement and criminals alike, to speak their minds? Or is everybody there either one or the other?

It seems to me that something just isn't sitting right with the whole kit and kaboodle of this case.

[close_enough]

I see from the earlier posts the added information about the victims being gagged. Would this be congruent with earlier thoughts that the victims were interogatted... or if gagged it would appear more execution style murder - Simple revenge!

wow, i didn't think they were gagged, but i see all the posts with the wording "gagged"...hmmm, that would be used to keep them quiet, NOT to interrogate...weird
...i had thought since some talking heads/"experts"/LE said it appeared they were interrogated, they had a reason to think this....if they were gagged, this doesn't make sense...unless they were interrogated at first, maybe while rummaging through the house...once the killers figured out they weren't getting anywhere in finding whatever they wanted, they gagged them????....

[close_enough]

meant to add....did anyone watch the show on TV last night, that Rle7 mentioned on another thread???....forgot the name of the show now...was it Without a Trace???....i didn't watch it, but i hadn't checked in here, in the last few days, so i didn't know anything about it....

[Tom'sGirl]

meant to add....did anyone watch the show on TV last night, that Rle7 mentioned on another thread???....forgot the name of the show now...was it Without a Trace???....i didn't watch it, but i hadn't checked in here, in the last few days, so i didn't know anything about it....
Yeah I watched it close,

It was a re-run. At the end they only showed Dylon Groene which was kinda freaky.......no photo of Shasta!

[close_enough]

Yeah I watched it close,

It was a re-run. At the end they only showed Dylon Groene which was kinda freaky.......no photo of Shasta!

thanks Tom'sGirl...i guess i never saw it the first time..dang

[mysteriew]

I have a question. Where did the info about the gag come from? As far as I have heard LE has never said anything about a gag (please correct me if I am wrong). What I saw was an "expert" giving his opinion on the case and he mentioned a gag. If my info is correct then we really don't know if a gag was used or not, as the "expert" may have been incorrect in his info.
If I am incorrect and LE did mention a gag, please let my know where to find the article, because I missed it.

[Liz]

I have a question. Where did the info about the gag come from? As far as I have heard LE has never said anything about a gag (please correct me if I am wrong). What I saw was an "expert" giving his opinion on the case and he mentioned a gag. If my info is correct then we really don't know if a gag was used or not, as the "expert" may have been incorrect in his info.
If I am incorrect and LE did mention a gag, please let my know where to find the article, because I missed it.


There are a bunch of references to them being gagged, in Wayne's post #489, on page 20, of the previous Shasta and Dylan thread, which was started on 6/1.

I had not previously 'heard' it said by any LE, either, even though I suspected they might have been gagged.

Someone in another post said something about them not being interrogated, since they were gagged. It's possible they could have been interrogated first, then gagged just prior to the bludgeoning.
(I know. Horrible thoughts.)

[Liz]

Found something contradictory in this article from the CdA Press dated 5/23, with regards to the polygraphs.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/news01.txt

He basically said 'you know something about the whereabouts of your children. I think you need to tell us now,'" Groene said. "Obviously, I said 'no way.'"

Another family member said another of Groene's sons said the FBI used the exact tactic, even down to the question, with him. Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson declined to comment about Groene's assertions, or to the results of the test. "We've done many polygraphs in this case," he said, "We don't comment about any of them."


I wonder IF Sheriff Watson has ever communicated that to his subordinate, Captain Ben Wolfinger? Do you all recall Wolfinger making all kinds of excuses trying to explain why Steve may have failed certain portions of his polygraph exam? I do. Notice how Watson directly contradicts that in hisstatement above. (Where has Capt Wolfinger been?)


Here's another quote from the same article, about Steve's unauthorized visit request.

During the program, which is transmitted over the Fox News Channel, Steven Groene also admitted he and Brenda Groene argued the Friday before the killings about his request to take the children on an unscheduled visit for a few days before starting a two-week, out-of-town vacation.

I do remember what I said to my husband, as soon as I heard that. I said he had no intention of returning those kids. He was going to abscond with them. I said the children were not supposed to be there Sunday. Sometimes my female intuition is right on, sometimes it's off. I guess I'll always wonder about that.

Really ... what reasons, other than his kids., did Steve have to return to CdA? His recycling plant job???

[Wayne]

I have a question. Where did the info about the gag come from? As far as I have heard LE has never said anything about a gag (please correct me if I am wrong). What I saw was an "expert" giving his opinion on the case and he mentioned a gag. If my info is correct then we really don't know if a gag was used or not, as the "expert" may have been incorrect in his info.
If I am incorrect and LE did mention a gag, please let my know where to find the article, because I missed it.It was mentioned on the CNN Nancy Grace and MSNBC Abrams shows and in the CDA Press newspaper. That is three different places.

I posted the links... in post 489 on the previous Shasta and Dylan thread, started on 6/1.

IMO, if one person says gagged and was quoted, I'd agree about it possibly being incorrect info. But there were three different reports that I quoted - involving different people.

[Wayne]

Found something contradictory in this article from the CdA Press dated 5/23, with regards to the polygraphs.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/news01.txt

I wonder IF Sheriff Watson has ever communicated that to his subordinate, Captain Ben Wolfinger? Do you all recall Wolfinger making all kinds of excuses trying to explain why Steve may have failed certain portions of his polygraph exam? I do. Notice how Watson directly contradicts that in hisstatement above. (Where has Capt Wolfinger been?)

Here's another quote from the same article, about Steve's unauthorized visit request.

I do remember what I said to my husband, as soon as I heard that. I said he had no intention of returning those kids. He was going to abscond with them. I said the children were not supposed to be there Sunday. Sometimes my female intuition is right on, sometimes it's off. I guess I'll always wonder about that.

Really ... what reasons, other than his kids., did Steve have to return to CdA? His recycling plant job???Good information, Liz. I like your intuition.

I wish to add that on the MSNBC Abrams Report on May 24th, Dave Turner of the CDA Press said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7963393/

DAVE TURNER, CRIME REPORTER, “COEUR D‘ALENE PRESS”: Well that‘s because they‘ve pretty much said from the beginning that they believe that the children were no place else but in the house at the time this murder must have happened, sometime late evening Sunday or some time on Monday. They were never at school, so they were—where else would they be?

ABRAMS: And what else have you—what else do you think is important that we have learned in the last 24 hours?

TURNER: Well I think what‘s important is that they seem to be going all out and trying to eliminate suspects specifically with Steve Groene.Did LE ever eliminate Steve as a suspect? Maybe that is why family has been excluded from updates from LE and why the family has not organized and conducted searches for Shasta and Dylan?

[Gracelin]

I do remember what I said to my husband, as soon as I heard that. I said he had no intention of returning those kids. He was going to abscond with them. I said the children were not supposed to be there Sunday. Sometimes my female intuition is right on, sometimes it's off. I guess I'll always wonder about that.

I am reading on another web site, It has what seems to me every news story printed about the case AnnieMae sent it to me, and now I will share crimeshots true crime forums.
I didn't realize that Steve and Brenda had shared custody of the children.
Why then would they be fighting over a visit,When visitation was a given?

More agents join murder case

FBI offering up to $100,000 for information
Staff writer
May 24, 2005

Thirty more investigators from the FBI are joining the biggest criminal investigation in Kootenai County history, as a team that sometimes numbers in the hundreds assists with the search for two missing North Idaho siblings and whoever killed three of their loved ones.

Along with the manpower, the FBI is offering up to $100,000 in reward money for information that leads to the safe return of the children or helps authorities capture their abductors, FBI special agent Timothy J. Fuhrman announced Monday during a press conference with county Sheriff Rocky Watson.

"This is just another tool in our bag to generate that information and give us what we hope is a happy resolution," Fuhrman said.

Among the experts provided by the FBI are evidence response teams, agents who specialize in child abduction cases, technicians at the FBI lab in Quantico, Va., – which stayed opened Sunday just to start processing evidence collected throughout the week from the murder scene – and a team of profilers, who examined the murder scene and evidence to develop a psychological profile of the killer or killers.

The FBI is a partner in the homicide investigation with the Idaho State Police and the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office, said sheriff's Capt. Ben Wolfinger. Between those agencies, and the FBI agents who were already on the case, about 40 investigators have been working to solve the crimes, he said

About 150 people now are working on the case, including investigators, volunteers, administrators, media experts, technicians and assistants, among others, Wolfinger said.

"When we did the ground search the other day," Wolfinger said, referring to a shoulder-to-shoulder search of 400 acres near the family's home, "we had 200 trained professional searchers come out. People want to come help in this case … It's been pretty incredible."

"It's an ever-expanding thing," Wolfinger said, noting that more than 900 calls had come in to tip lines as of Monday afternoon.

Shasta Groene, 8, and Dylan Groene, 9, were missing a week ago, when sheriff's deputies found the bound and bludgeoned bodies of their mother, brother and mother's boyfriend in their home near Wolf Lodge Bay.

A public memorial service for Brenda K. Groene, 40, and her 13-year-old son, Slade, is scheduled for 3 p.m. Wednesday at Real Life Ministries in Post Falls. A private ceremony was planned for Mark McKenzie, 37, who lived with Groene and her three children in the white cinderblock home on Frontage Road.

Despite an inch-by-inch examination of the home, hundreds of tips and an exhaustive search of Wolf Lodge's ponds, streams, forests and fields, authorities have no suspect. A concrete worker named as a person of interest last week was ruled out after a seven-hour interview with investigators.

He told authorities that he last saw the family during a party at the house, the evening of Sunday, May 15. The victims – bound and bludgeoned to death – were found the next day by deputies making a welfare check.

The house showed no sign of forced entry. Toxicology results from the autopsy showed that Brenda Groene and McKenzie had recently used illicit drugs, but authorities have not said exactly what substances they found.

Wolfinger said Monday that investigators believe they have contacted all the people who attended the party, but none has been detained as a suspect or "person of interest."

On Sunday evening, Fox News Channel's Geraldo Rivera interviewed the biological father of the missing children on national television. Steve Groene, who divorced Brenda Groene and had joint custody of their minor children, told Rivera that the FBI told him he had failed portions of a lie-detector test.

But Wolfinger reiterated Monday that Steve Groene is not a suspect, even if he didn't pass all portions of the polygraph test, which measures a person's physical response to stress.

"Is he emotional already? Yeah. Is he stressed? Yeah. Is he beside himself with grief? Yeah," Wolfinger said. But, "there is no evidence to substantiate Steve Groene as a suspect or a person of interest."

Friends and acquaintances said they consider Groene above suspicion.

"He would never do that," said Sonya M. Schy, a close friend of Brenda Groene. "He's a basket case right now. I think he's thinking the worst right now. A lot of us are."

Schy said she has been interviewed twice by the FBI or ISP – she doesn't remember which – but says she was not at the party the night of the murder, and doesn't know what happened. She said she suspects it took more than one killer because McKenzie and Brenda Groene were tough "hillbilly folks and proud of it."

"This is a senseless tragedy as far as I can tell," she said. "But you know, I just don't know, I don't know. One minute I think I've got it figured out in my head, the next minute I think, it could be something else."

Like her murdered friend, Schy lives in a rural area with few neighbors. She keeps her doors locked now, and gets nervous when she sees strange cars on the road leading to her house.

"My life has changed," she said. "I'm never going to live it the same."

In addition to the FBI reward, the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office and Secret Witness out of Spokane have $7,500 so far in reward money for information that leads to an arrest in the triple-murder and missing children case.

Anonymous tips that lead to an arrest are eligible for the reward offered by Secret Witness, but the FBI requires identification for anyone to qualify for the $100,000 reward.

[Tom'sGirl]

I didn't realize that Steve and Brenda had shared custody of the children.[/b]
Why then would they be fighting over a visit,When visitation was a given?


Visiitation is not a "given", :hand: it is determined in the divorce case as to when the parent gets visitation, NOT ANY TIME THEY WANT THEM!

[Gracelin]

I never had experence with visiation, so I don't know, I just seems to me if they had been divorced for some time, that visitation would be all worked out by now.
Making "appointments" sounds like "pay me child support and you can see the kids"

[Nchadwickaz]

I never had experence with visiation, so I don't know, I just seems to me if they had been divorced for some time, that visitation would be all worked out by now.
Making "appointments" sounds like "pay me child support and you can see the kids"
I know, from my experience -- and a lot of people that I know, that w/ my oldest daughter (her dad and I share custody/visitation, etc) -- I know that the courts here will enforce strict guidelines -- if needed. It seems like, Brenda and Steve, had been divorced for sometime and for the most part seem to get along....

.... My ex and I have been divorced for 13 yrs. and even though we share custody, from the time she was about 6 and above, he calls to make plans with her. He and I can be civil -- but there are times that we disagree on a time that I have already had plans for, or for that matter many things -- school, discipline, etc.

My parents were always and still are married, so as a kid -- and now as an adult, raising children when we are divorced is a different dynamic.....

I don't think that that was really too much out of the ordinary -- in fact, I have had that same disagreement w/ my ex over visitation (not on the drugs) -- but at the last minute b4 he was going camping wanting to see the kids -- when we had already had plans that weekend... in happens - and usually if the parents are civil then the strict guidlines are never needed.

[Tom'sGirl]

I never had experence with visiation, so I don't know, I just seems to me if they had been divorced for some time, that visitation would be all worked out by now.
Making "appointments" sounds like "pay me child support and you can see the kids"Grace,

Visitation is not by appointment, it is Pre-determined in a divorce as to when visitation is in Joint Custody.

Of course it doesn't mean that between the two parents they can't switch week-ends or vacation time regarding the kids to suit one anothers plans, IF they are on good terms.

How could say for example, a mother make any plans of her own in her now divorced life, or remarried life if the father at any ungiven time said, "hey I want the kids" whenever it was convienient for him.

I doubt that Steve even paid child support IMO, and he just called as to when he wanted to see the kids, and Brenda usually said okay. If all he drives is a Harley, I guess that's how he picked up both the kids. But, don't know as to where he took them as he appears to have no record of having his own place to live!

[Wayne]

Good find Gracelin! Brenda and Steve had shared custody.

IMO, divorce and child custody laws differ from state-to-state.

If one parent is willing, IMO, changing visitation should not be an issue. Maybe Brenda and Mark had made plans on going away or doing something special during Steve's regular visitation - and thus why Brenda was not cooperative.

I wonder if Steve ever got threatening towards Brenda? And the reverse, too - I wonder if Brenda ever got threatening towards Steve? I wonder if Brenda or Steve ever filed a complaint with LE or family courts?

[Gracelin]

Thanks Wayne, I was thinking along them lines too..
And couldn't find the right wording for my post.
Why was she being so relucant to let him see the kids that weekend?
It's pretty obvious now that the party at her house wasn't the hit of the year..No pun intended..
Maybe she was afraid that with him leaving for a vacation that he wouldn't bring them back,and just keep going..

[Wayne]

Thanks Wayne, I was thinking along them lines too..
And couldn't find the right wording for my post.
Why was she being so relucant to let him see the kids that weekend?
It's pretty obvious now that the party at her house wasn't the hit of the year..No pun intended..
Maybe she was afraid that with him leaving for a vacation that he wouldn't bring them back,and just keep going..There are two questions ... (1) Why was Brenda being so relucant to let Steve have the kids that weekend? and (2) What was Steve's plans to do with the children that weekend? Only Brenda can answer #1 and she is dead... And only Steve can answer #2. And IMO, LE should have asked that question on Steve's polygraph.

I wonder if Steve had plans on keeping the little ones out late on Sunday - and they had school on Monday? Like Steve had said he'd bring them to school on Monday morning and Brenda began getting fearful that he'd not return?

With the limited information released from LE, IMO, anything seems possible.

[Beyond Belief]

That whole conversation about "make an appointment to see the kids" sounds almost ridiculous. He lived with the grandmother, his sons had access to the kids, he probably saw them quite often without "making arrangements". Maybe thats why they were being sarcastic, maybe most of the time he just came and got them and now all of sudden he's asking permission. And was he in town on Monday or was he away on vacation?

If he was leaving on vacation as he stated, when was he going, he called on Friday. Where was he going and why didn't he leave?

[Rle7]

That whole conversation about "make an appointment to see the kids" sounds almost ridiculous. He lived with the grandmother, his sons had access to the kids, he probably saw them quite often without "making arrangements". Maybe thats why they were being sarcastic, maybe most of the time he just came and got them and now all of sudden he's asking permission. And was he in town on Monday or was he away on vacation?

If he was leaving on vacation as he stated, when was he going, he called on Friday. Where was he going and why didn't he leave?According to the news, Steve got up at went to work around 6AM Monday morning. So he couldn't have been planning to go on vacation right away. If he had the kids that weekend, he probably would have returned them Sunday night as they had school Monday morning.

I'm a single parent with full custody of my kid, and my ex has visitation rights. I have a work schedule, my daughter has her school and afterschool activities schedule, and visitation is always scheduled for the other parent by court order. Any deviation from that schedule has to be worked out ahead of time, not at the last minute. Otherwise, the non-custodial parent has no right for an unscheduled visit. Last minute schedule changes are very inconvenient for the custodial parent's schedule, and are usually met with resistance. I've certainly had fights with my ex over unscheduled visitation.

Even with joint custody, I'm sure the parents have to adhere to a visitation schedule, and Brenda appeared to be the parent with the most custody, as the minor children lived with her. I had read in another article somewhere that Steve had custody of Vance and Jesse and Brenda had custody of the other children. I'm sure I posted that article, I'll try and find it.

[dannyodie]

http://garyspivey.com/

here is another very good physchic, or visionary, he is local around here and is very good, free of charge and has helped lots of people with all sorts of things. I would hope that steve groene could contact him and ask him some questions. for those of you that don't believe in phychic and or visionary abilties, that is your own choice. if you believe in god than at least your mind should be open to the fact that god is a mystery to us all and that he reveals himself each and everyday of our lives, we have to be awake to notice his presence in our lives, I am very blessed to be here on this planet I have had several accidents in my life that would have killed just about anyone, there is a reason I am still here, what that is I don't know, but I keep my faith in god because he has something far much better for me than what I have right now. god has given many people that special ability, some people say that they are nothing but full of crap, I would never say that of anyone that is trying to do good for someone that is in need of help. I only hope that steve finds his children and the ones that did the murders, if they are not found and they continue the life they lead now, the punishment that god gives will be for eternatiy, their souls will endure the worst that anyone could possibly imagine, a fire that can not be quinched.

[Gracelin]

Anyone have a password for the spokesmans Review, ?

Dad's Day wish is for kids' return (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/idaho/story.asp?ID=75870)
The Spokesman Review (subscription), WA - 8 hours ago
... Father's Day approached, their biological father, Steve Groene, continued to wait by the phone for some word on the whereabouts of Shasta and Dylan, who were ...

[Beyond Belief]

According to the news, Steve got up at went to work around 6AM Monday morning. So he couldn't have been planning to go on vacation right away. If he had the kids that weekend, he probably would have returned them Sunday night as they had school Monday morning.

I'm a single parent with full custody of my kid, and my ex has visitation rights. I have a work schedule, my daughter has her school and afterschool activities schedule, and visitation is always scheduled for the other parent by court order. Any deviation from that schedule has to be worked out ahead of time, not at the last minute. Otherwise, the non-custodial parent has no right for an unscheduled visit. Last minute schedule changes are very inconvenient for the custodial parent's schedule, and are usually met with resistance. I've certainly had fights with my ex over unscheduled visitation.

Even with joint custody, I'm sure the parents have to adhere to a visitation schedule, and Brenda appeared to be the parent with the most custody, as the minor children lived with her. I had read in another article somewhere that Steve had custody of Vance and Jesse and Brenda had custody of the other children. I'm sure I posted that article, I'll try and find it.
It all just seems strange. The comment "make an appointment" just doesn't sound like a responsible mother willing to make future arrangements for her kids. It sounds more like a sarcastic person who is playing games. Two adults told an 8 yr old to give that message to her father, who she probably loves.

[Rle7]

Here is that info. It was originally posted by carolina at post #134 on the original closed thread. I knew I remembered seeing it, it took me a while to find it:

Steven and Brenda Groene were separated in 1998 and divorced in 2001. Brenda Groene had custody of the three younger children and her husband had custody of two older children, Vance Robert, now 20, and Jesse, 18, court records showed.

http://www.komo1000news.com/stories/36882.htm

I wonder why the conflicting reports. Joint custody usually means both parents share the children 50% of the time. That is confusing...

[Beyond Belief]

Looks like he took the two older ones, who were probably a handful. Child support works out less that way. Actually it looks like sensible healthy divorce.

I am just having a hard time understand that comment "make an appointment". That sounds bitter and I just don't think this was that type of situation. It was reported that the parents had an arguement on Friday, but I never heard what was said between the two unless they are referring to the telephone call where he talked to Shasta.

[Rle7]

Anyone have a password for the spokesmans Review, ?

Dad's Day wish is for kids' return (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/idaho/story.asp?ID=75870)
The Spokesman Review (subscription), WA - 8 hours ago
... Father's Day approached, their biological father, Steve Groene, continued to wait by the phone for some word on the whereabouts of Shasta and Dylan, who were ...
I wish I did. I usually wait a couple of days for the Google search engine to find the article and cache it. Then I can retrieve it without paying 7 bucks. I think that is cyberspace robbery :razz:

[Beyond Belief]

Let all pray that the children show up somewhere today. I know I search the public when in the malls hoping to see them. Everytime I see a set of kids their age, which is often, I am praying, please let it be them.

[dannyodie]

has anyone done a sexual offenders search in that county? I was looking by county and I was floored to see how many there are in that area, sexual offenders are many times drug users and some are violant criminals. someone that knows the names of the nearest addresses to the murder scene might be able to see if there was any living close to the groene family. I provided a link to the first page below.


http://www.isp.state.id.us/so_viewer/search.do?segment=0&searchType=county&county=KOOTENAI&age=A

[Liz]

According to the news, Steve got up at went to work around 6AM Monday morning. So he couldn't have been planning to go on vacation right away. If he had the kids that weekend, he probably would have returned them Sunday night as they had school Monday morning.


Only thing is, according to the article I quoted in post #12 above, Steve had requested to take the kids for a few days before leaving on his two-week vacation. We all know Steve lived with Darlene Torres, the children's grandmother. It's possible Steve had made arrangements for Darlene to take them into school and maybe even pick them up from school.

Or, there's the possibility that he had scheduled vacation to begin on Monday; but when he was not successful at getting the visitation, that he called into his boss and rescheduled it to start a few days later.

I do realize there's the possibility the article quoted is erroneous. I'm trying to recall that interview (of Steve) with Geraldo.

Source: http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/news01.txt

[dannyodie]

I wish I did. I usually wait a couple of days for the Google search engine to find the article and cache it. Then I can retrieve it without paying 7 bucks. I think that is cyberspace robbery :razz:
I sent you a pm, looks like graclin was the one needing a password. anyway just take a look at it, gracilin is welcome to read the pm if you wish to forward it to her. just pm me back and let me know how you would intend on its use

[Liz]

Below is a quote from
this cached S-R article (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:cjWNap8flVsJ:www.spokesmanreview.co m/idaho/story.asp%3FI
D%3D71228+steve+groene+%2B+s-r.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

(Speaking of Steve)
"He would never do that," said Sonya M. Schy, a close friend of Brenda Groene. "He's a basket case right now. I think he's thinking the worst right now. A lot of us are."

Schy said she has been interviewed twice by the FBI or ISP – she doesn't remember which – but says she was not at the party the night of the murder, and doesn't know what happened. She said she suspects it took more than one killer because McKenzie and Brenda Groene were tough "hillbilly folks and proud of it."

Since I had nothing better to do yesterday afternoon, and since it seems almost everyone whose name has appeared in relation to this case seems to have some sort of criminal record, I decided to do a little search on Sonya Schy.

From September 2004:

OUTSTANDING WARRANTS (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200409/ai_n11704774)

Shoshone County has a backlog of more than 800 outstanding arrest warrants. Officials are asking the public for any information about the following people, who are identified by name, age, last known city of residence, the charge and the bond amount on the warrant. If you have any information, please contact the sheriff's department at (208) 556-1114.

Sonya M. Schy, aka Sonya M. Kay, aka Sonya Michelle, aka Sonya M. Arnold - 31, Athol, bench warrant, warrant of attachment, unlawful entry, failure to show proof of liability insurance, driving without privileges, $663 bond.

I am beginning to wonder if we should start a thread for "The criminal element involved". Seems like an unusually high number of players in this case have some type of criminal record, arrest record, or jail or prison record, doesn't it?

Dannyodie, just to let you know, and to add a little 'hmmmm' factor, "Shoshone County" is the county that the city of Kellogg is in.

OT, I'd like to wish Rle7 and all the Dad's here, a wonderful and Happy Father's Day! (My prayers are going out for Steve that his children are returned.)

[Lili]

I am beginning to wonder if we should start a thread for "The criminal element involved". Seems like an unusually high number of players in this case have some type of criminal record, arrest record, or jail or prison record, doesn't it?

Dannyodie, just to let you know, and to add a little 'hmmmm' factor, "Shoshone County" is the county that the city of Kellogg is in.

OT, I'd like to wish Rle7 and all the Dad's here, a wonderful and Happy Father's Day! (My prayers are going out for Steve that his children are returned.)
Thank you for the Schy info. I had her on my "people to check out" list. :rolleyes:

As I weeded my flower bed this afternoon I thought about this situation. "The criminal element" as you mentioned doesn't really surprise me. People tend to associate with people like themselves. I am not saying they were BAD people, obviously they were having problems.

Why? In my opinion, it's a caste system. Social class. There used to be the wealthy, the middle class and the poor. But IMO the middle class is fast disappearing. So many low paying jobs, small pay increases, yet the utility companies and really, everything, is going up in price.

Thoughts anyone?

[Tom'sGirl]

Below is a quote from
this cached S-R article (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:cjWNap8flVsJ:<a href=)

(Speaking of Steve)


Since I had nothing better to do yesterday afternoon, and since it seems almost everyone whose name has appeared in relation to this case seems to have some sort of criminal record, I decided to do a little search on Sonya Schy.

From September 2004:

OUTSTANDING WARRANTS (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_200409/ai_n11704774)



I am beginning to wonder if we should start a thread for "The criminal element involved". Seems like an unusually high number of players in this case have some type of criminal record, arrest record, or jail or prison record, doesn't it?

I'm thinking you're right Liz, maybe we should!

[LDC]

I would like to know why there are no picutres of these angels other then the 2-3 that are in the news..you would think that someone would have some other pictures besides just school pic..I have looked all over the web and cannot find any other poictures..

[dannyodie]

gracelin and rle7, check your private messages. please use wisely. your very welcome.

[Gracelin]

Dan thanks, I was able to post the story I wanted, It is in the media section of this thread.

[Rle7]

OT, I'd like to wish Rle7 and all the Dad's here, a wonderful and Happy Father's Day! (My prayers are going out for Steve that his children are returned.)
Thank you very much Liz. That was very thoughtful of you:)

[dragonfly]

My impression of Brenda statement "Make an appointment!" is maybe due to frustration at Steve's lack of consideration at requesting to see the kids at the last moment.

Sort of like, "what ever you were planning comes second, I want to stop and pick the kids up for the weekend." IMO I could see Brenda responding in this manner. I don't think the relationship between Brenda and Steve was all that hospitable.

IMO Steve wanted the kids, wanted to get them away and maybe even Brenda had a gut feeling this is exactly what he was going to try.

[Liz]

Thank you for the Schy info. I had her on my "people to check out" list. :rolleyes:

You're welcome, Lili! :) And, I agree that it seems as though the middle class is getting to be a thing of the past.

Thank you very much Liz. That was very thoughtful of you:)

You're welcome Rle7! :) You're the only Dad here, that I'm aware of; because your posts have said so.


My impression of Brenda statement "Make an appointment!" is maybe due to frustration at Steve's lack of consideration at requesting to see the kids at the last moment.

Sort of like, "what ever you were planning comes second, I want to stop and pick the kids up for the weekend." IMO I could see Brenda responding in this manner. I don't think the relationship between
Brenda and Steve was all that hospitable.

IMO Steve wanted the kids, wanted to get them away and maybe even Brenda had a gut feeling this is exactly what he was going to try.


Exactly, Dragonfly. And, for all we know, maybe he was paraphrasing or embellishing. (Maybe she just said you need to give me a few days notice, which in his mind was equivilent to making an appt.) Steve can say she said anything he wants now, since Brenda is no longer around to defend her statements.

[Gracelin]

"Make an appointment!"

I made that statement not Brenda it was my way of talking, Brenda told Steve that he couldn't have a unscheduled visit. And I said in post 17.

"I never had experience with visitation, so I don't know, I just seems to me if they had been divorced for some time, that visitation would be all worked out by now.
Making "appointments" sounds like "pay me child support and you can see the kids"
it was my metaphor for schedule a visit! I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I just read back and saw how many people misinterpreted my slang...

[Tom'sGirl]

"Make an appointment!"

I made that statement not Brenda it was my way of talking, Brenda told Steve that he couldn't have a unscheduled visit. And I said in post 17.

"I never had experience with visitation, so I don't know, I just seems to me if they had been divorced for some time, that visitation would be all worked out by now.
Making "appointments" sounds like "pay me child support and you can see the kids"
it was my metaphor for schedule a visit! I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I just read back and saw how many people misinterpreted my slang...Thank you for clearing this up :clap: :clap: :clap:

[CaliKid]

Being recently divorced myself, visitation can be a tricky thing. Our decree says what time my ex picks up and drops off the kids, and because of his abusive treatment of all of us, I go strictly by the books. It could be that Steve and Brenda still were dealing with raw feelings about the divorce, and either of them could've been griping about the other.

[Beyond Belief]

I know their following all and any leads, but this sure is the quietest case I have seen.

[mysteriew]

Being recently divorced myself, visitation can be a tricky thing. Our decree says what time my ex picks up and drops off the kids, and because of his abusive treatment of all of us, I go strictly by the books. It could be that Steve and Brenda still were dealing with raw feelings about the divorce, and either of them could've been griping about the other.

Right after a divorce you tend to stick to the agreement. But a couple of years later after working out visitation around vacation, illness, children's activities, employment, relative's visits, and etc. you sometimes get more casual. It is really in the children's best interest that visitation be regular but more casual (when there is no abuse of course). Sort of kids can see the other parent, whenever they want or need to see the other parent.
However, some families never get to that point. I have never heard it said which day Steve wanted to see the kids. Maybe Steve wanted them for Sun. and maybe there were people coming that Brenda wanted the kids to see. Maybe he hadn't been paying his child support. Maybe Steve had been dropping the kids off to late. Or maybe Brenda was just one of those people who would always give the ex a hard time. Who knows, only the people who knew both parties would have any idea of why now.

[mysteriew]

For Dylan and Shasta: Candles in the window til you come home.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/mysteriew/sad/candle_10.gif

[Et al]

http://www.katu.com/stories/77840.html

this link is from katu news in oregon, about a crazed meth user high on the drug. this is how violent these people are. watch all of the video, you will notice that not only does he have a gun , but a baseball bat as well, I wonder if a baseball bat was used to kill brenda groene and her son, and boyfriend? seems like these people choose to carry weapons where ever they go to do there deed.

Brought over from the other thread.
This incident occurred in Surrey, B.C. 80% of the car thefts there are meth related.

Many years ago I knew this young man through his mother. Long story on how I knew her, but needless to say she has been missing for about a year now. I can't help but feel she was also involved in meth and met her demise.
Sooner or later I think we will all be either directly or indirectly affected by meth.

[Tom'sGirl]

Being recently divorced myself, visitation can be a tricky thing. Our decree says what time my ex picks up and drops off the kids, and because of his abusive treatment of all of us, I go strictly by the books. It could be that Steve and Brenda still were dealing with raw feelings about the divorce, and either of them could've been griping about the other.
Cali,
Visitations certainly can be a tricky thing, and more:sick: I hated the Christmas arrangements for one. Secondly I hated NOT getting back the clothes that went with them on visitation days. But, I'm getting OT here.

Perhaps there was no child support paid as they more or less "split" the kids as to custody, just a thought!

[Liz]

Hallelujah! Brennan has been found! :) Thousands of people searched for him for days and the outcome is successful!

The search and the coverage goes on, and on, and on and on for Natalee. Natalee is a grown girl, who left to go partying on Aruba of her own accord. I hope and pray she is found alive. If she's not, it certainly won't be for lack of coverage.

Shasta and Dylan, 8 and 9 yrs old, disappeared during or after a horrific triple murder of their loved ones two weeks prior to Natalee's disappearance.

Where is the COVERAGE?

Where are the SEARCH PARTIES?

WHY aren't we hearing anything??

I hope everyone will write to CNN, HNN, Fox news and MSNBCs and ask why aren't these two missing kids being given ANY coverage?? Please!?

[Tom'sGirl]

Hallelujah! Brennan has been found! :) Thousands of people searched for him for days and the outcome is successful!

The search and the coverage goes on, and on, and on and on for Natalee. Natalee is a grown girl, who left to go partying on Aruba of her own accord. I hope and pray she is found alive. If she's not, it certainly won't be for lack of coverage.

Shasta and Dylan, 8 and 9 yrs old, disappeared during or after a horrific triple murder of their loved ones two weeks prior to Natalee's disappearance.

Where is the COVERAGE?

Where are the SEARCH PARTIES?

WHY aren't we hearing anything??

I hope everyone will write to CNN, HNN, Fox news and MSNBCs and ask why aren't these two missing kids being given ANY coverage?? Please!?
I think all of us here are frustrated also. It keeps popping in my mind the reason that there are no search parties out there is because they know where the children are, and keeping it under wraps until they find the party/parties that killed the others..........JMO

[Wayne]

I hope everyone will write to CNN, HNN, Fox news and MSNBCs and ask why aren't these two missing kids being given ANY coverage?? Please!?I did email writers / contributors directly.

The response I received was that when there is new news to be reported, they will be there to report it.

Just thought I'd share that with you.

[Wayne]

I think all of us here are frustrated also. It keeps popping in my mind the reason that there are no search parties out there is because they know where the children are, and keeping it under wraps until they find the party/parties that killed the others..........JMO
I hope you are right - they (LE) know where the children are, and keeping it under wraps until they find the party/parties that killed the others.

[Tom'sGirl]

I did email writers / contributors directly.

The response I received was that when there is new news to be reported, they will be there to report it.

Just thought I'd share that with you.Thanks Wayne for sharing the reply you received.

[Liz]

I think all of us here are frustrated also. It keeps popping in my mind the reason that there are no search parties out there is because they know where the children are, and keeping it under wraps until they find the party/parties that killed the others..........JMO


I don't know Tom'sGirl, I wish I thought that was true. Local news still brings up the children quite frequently and gives the tip line numbers and email address. I've been wondering IF they (LE) think the children are somewhere within the local viewing area, and that is why the info is still being locally aired.

I wish some searchers would check out that area that Dannyodie dreamed about - Kellogg, ID. It sure couldn't hurt anything.


I did email writers / contributors directly.

The response I received was that when there is new news to be reported, they will be there to report it.

Just thought I'd share that with you.

Thanks, Wayne! At least you got a response. I have had no replies to my emails, at all. I sent several more today. Daybreak, Fox Report, Greta, Abrams, Scarborough, Hannity, O'Reilly. I gave up on Geraldo, since his last interview of Steve (with Mark Lunsford), in which he failed to ask even ONE
significant question.

I'll keep hoping and praying that something significant breaks soon!

[Wayne]

I think it is very possible the news media, like LE, knows more than they are saying.

Although we live in a country with our Constitution and its Bill of Rights, when it comes to a person's safety, many within the news media profession will honor LE's opinion / request to refrain from publishing information that may compromise a person's safety.

As for the lack of organized searches since Memorial Day and lack of information ...

IMO, I believe LE may know exactly where the children are located. LE may even have the children in protective custody. Or LE may have access to the children who may be in a hospital under John Doe / Jane Doe because they are in shock (or sedated) and can not communicate yet with others. Yet, IMO, LE may not be able to say any of this - without risking the safety of the children (and others).

Then there is the possibility that the children are already dead - and LE may know this via evidence collected but can not release the information without risking the safety of others (including but not limited to Steve Groene, Vance Grone, Jesse Groene, or even Lutner).

Last, IMO, LE may have assembled no solid theory / case from the information they have collected.

One thing is certain, IMO, anything seems possible in this case.

[scifier]

I think it is very possible the news media, like LE, knows more than they are saying.

Although we live in a country with our Constitution and its Bill of Rights, when it comes to a person's safety, many within the news media profession will honor LE's opinion / request to refrain from publishing information that may compromise a person's safety.

As for the lack of organized searches since Memorial Day and lack of information ...

IMO, I believe LE may know exactly where the children are located. LE may even have the children in protective custody. Or LE may have access to the children who may be in a hospital under John Doe / Jane Doe because they are in shock (or sedated) and can not communicate yet with others. Yet, IMO, LE may not be able to say any of this - without risking the safety of the children (and others).

Then there is the possibility that the children are already dead - and LE may know this via evidence collected but can not release the information without risking the safety of others (including but not limited to Steve Groene, Vance Grone, Jesse Groene, or even Lutner).

Last, IMO, LE may have assembled no solid theory / case from the information they have collected.

One thing is certain, IMO, anything seems possible in this case.
IMO I dont believe LE knows where the children are. There is no risk to the children being in protective custody and it would be highly unlikely that the perps would continue down that path in trying to then kill the children. As for the thought that the children may be dead and LE knows about, here again it doesnt make logical sense to withhold that information. Obviously the perps would know that the children are dead so there would be no point to withholding that information. If they truly wanted to go after Steve, Vance or Jesse they could have already. Lutner is the exception as he is in LE's custody. I truly believe if LE knew where the children were they would get them and it would be broadcast to the public so that we would feel more secure. I agree that LE probably knows more than they are saying involving who a prime suspect is, but as to the rest hmmmm.....IMO

[Wayne]

IMO I dont believe LE knows where the children are. There is no risk to the children being in protective custody and it would be highly unlikely that the perps would continue down that path in trying to then kill the children. As for the thought that the children may be dead and LE knows about, here again it doesnt make logical sense to withhold that information. Obviously the perps would know that the children are dead so there would be no point to withholding that information. If they truly wanted to go after Steve, Vance or Jesse they could have already. Lutner is the exception as he is in LE's custody. I truly believe if LE knew where the children were they would get them and it would be broadcast to the public so that we would feel more secure. I agree that LE probably knows more than they are saying involving who a prime suspect is, but as to the rest hmmmm.....IMOInteresting points, scifier...

You said There is no risk to the children being in protective custody and it would be highly unlikely that the perps would continue down that path in trying to then kill the children. IMO ... If LE found the children scared and the children possessed vital information (as witnesses to a triple murder), I believe LE would act on the side of caution and be protective of the children until LE's investigation proved the children and others were not in harms way.

You said the thought that the children may be dead and LE knows about, here again it doesnt make logical sense to withhold that information. IMO ... What about LE fearing Vance or Steve taking or arranging vigilante justice if LE released certain info to the family? I have wondered if Steve or other family members (or Steve's biker gang) made a remark resembling vigilante justice and that is why LE shut the door on sharing information on their investigation? That would cause LE to delay - for weeks of months - the fact the children are dead to avoid an all-out gang war.

You said I truly believe if LE knew where the children were they would get them and it would be broadcast to the public so that we would feel more secure. IMO ... What if the children are beyond LE's jurisdiction? Mexico? Canada? Or some other place that LE has proof where they are BUT can not get to them with out risking their safety? What if LE has proof they were placed on a cargo ship leaving Seattle or some other west-coast port but may not have specific details about which cargo ship? LE has no jurisdiction in international waters.

You said If they truly wanted to go after Steve, Vance or Jesse they could have already. IMO ... What if LE hopes the adults could lead LE to the children or the perps? And LE is sitting back, waiting ... very patiently.

[Lili]

.......I have wondered if Steve or other family members (or Steve's biker gang) made a remark resembling vigilante justice and that is why LE shut the door on sharing information on their investigation? ....

You said If they truly wanted to go after Steve, Vance or Jesse they could have already. IMO ... What if LE hopes the adults could lead LE to the children or the perps? And LE is sitting back, waiting ... very patiently.
I think this is a great supposition. I take that you are insinuating that because Steve Groene owns a Harley he belongs to a "biker gang" of the bad kind. Now here's a "gang" that should make many quake in their boots! :D http://www.azchoirboys.org/

Yes, I imagine remarks being made of vigilante justice, but in reality, if it were your family, don't you think you would make the same kind of remarks? Haven't you ever been mad as he11 about something and made those kind of remarks? We all say things that we don't really mean.

Sadly, I think the lack of news releases from LE is making everyone look bad.

[Wayne]

Sadly, I think the lack of news releases from LE is making everyone look bad.IMO, the lack of news releases from LE is NOT making everyone look bad. I know I am not thrilled with LE's news releases on this case - but I believe LE has their reasons. As painful as it might be for some, I am certain LE will explain their reasoning when, in their opinion, the time is right.

I agree - We all say things that we don't really mean.

My post included a few situations under which LE might supress releasing information. My apology if it offended any one.

[CaliKid]

I think this is a great supposition. I take that you are insinuating that because Steve Groene owns a Harley he belongs to a "biker gang" of the bad kind. Now here's a "gang" that should make many quake in their boots! :D http://www.azchoirboys.org/

Yes, I imagine remarks being made of vigilante justice, but in reality, if it were your family, don't you think you would make the same kind of remarks? Haven't you ever been mad as he11 about something and made those kind of remarks? We all say things that we don't really mean.

Sadly, I think the lack of news releases from LE is making everyone look bad.
Mark Lunsford, Jessica's father, rides a bike. And look what he's doing with his spare time since his daughter's murder. We can't judge people like that.

[Liz]

Mark Lunsford, Jessica's father, rides a bike. And look what he's doing with his spare time since his daughter's murder. We can't judge people like that.


I guess you didn't feel that way when you posted that there is a high percentage of radical bigots in Idaho?

[dragonfly]

I was rereading some of the information some of the earlier press releases and found this puzzling and would like to hear your thoughts.
Coeur d' Alene Press interview with Lee Wood, Mark McKenzie's mom.

"I've kind of kept out of the limelight because I was afraid of more retaliation or something," she said.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt

When I read this statement I can't help but say MORE retaliation?

And then Retaliation for what?

I am quite sure she has a pretty good idea who might be responsible! I am hoping she was on the list of persons to be inverviewed!

[Rle7]

I was rereading some of the information some of the earlier press releases and found this puzzling and would like to hear your thoughts.
Coeur d' Alene Press interview with Lee Wood, Mark McKenzie's mom.

"I've kind of kept out of the limelight because I was afraid of more retaliation or something," she said.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/05/25/news/news01.txt

When I read this statement I can't help but say MORE retaliation?

And then Retaliation for what?

I am quite sure she has a pretty good idea who might be responsible! I am hoping she was on the list of persons to be inverviewed!
Hi dragonfly. There was quite a bit of discussion on this article when I first posted it last month. Look at this link for those discussions:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23766&page=3&pp=25

The comment about retaliation combined with Steve Groene's statement that the children "had nothing to do with any of this" led a lot of posters to speculate that both Ms. Wood and Steve had an idea of who did this.

Since then, Steve said in a Father's Day article that he meant that the children were not involved with anything dangerous enough to warrant killing them and Steve did not know who would do this. Ms. Wood has never publicly explained her comments.

Looking back on it now... I think Ms. Wood was just repeating what the news was reporting at the time. Lutner had told his girlfriend the Tuesday after the killings that they were gang-related and the family was executed. He also talked to Jesse Groene's girlfriend (Corrine Tosh?) over the phone and was upset and crying. That combined with reports of high drug use in the area and the criminal element this family associated with can lead to people thinking this was an act of retaliation. Ms. Wood also discredited Lutner's story about the BBQ on Sunday night, I think she believed he was lying and was repeating what he said about retaliation because she thinks Lutner killed the family or knows who did. Ms. Wood has a good point...Lutner was the last named person seen with the family shortly before they were murdered. And we haven't heard from Lutner since he turned himself in. LE has spoken for him, and he hasn't given any jailhouse interviews. And Lutner is still in jail...

Since then, LE has stated there was a large gathering of people there that night.

IMO, this was an act of retaliation. IMO, a female accomplice who knew the family well was involved and wouldn't let the murderer(s) kill the younger children. IMO, Slade knew too much about what was going on and that is why he was killed. As LE isn't giving us much info, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

[dragonfly]

Thanks Rle7,

I learned some things from you post.



Quote “Lutner had told his girlfriend the Tuesday after the killings that they were gang-related and the family was executed. He also talked to Jesse Groene's girlfriend (Corrine Tosh?) over the phone and was upset and crying.” ….All news to me.



IMO I don’t believe that Lutner was the killer and think he is in jail for his protection. He may have actually seen or met the killers at the house that day. I don’t know exactly how long one can be held for probation violation… eventually this will be an issue.



Still think the BBQ was LE’s phrasing only and used to lure out those who were at the house that afternoon/evening for questioning. IMO all who dropped by with the exception of Mark’s brother that day were there to buy/sell drugs.



Gee with so many people who have made statement that would lead you to believe they have a good idea who is responsible, it is truly amazing that solving this crime seems to be going nowhere fast!

[Wayne]

Hi dragonfly. There was quite a bit of discussion on this article when I first posted it last month. Look at this link for those discussions:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23766&page=3&pp=25

The comment about retaliation combined with Steve Groene's statement that the children "had nothing to do with any of this" led a lot of posters to speculate that both Ms. Wood and Steve had an idea of who did this.

Since then, Steve said in a Father's Day article that he meant that the children were not involved with anything dangerous enough to warrant killing them and Steve did not know who would do this. Ms. Wood has never publicly explained her comments.

Looking back on it now... I think Ms. Wood was just repeating what the news was reporting at the time. Lutner had told his girlfriend the Tuesday after the killings that they were gang-related and the family was executed. He also talked to Jesse Groene's girlfriend (Corrine Tosh?) over the phone and was upset and crying. That combined with reports of high drug use in the area and the criminal element this family associated with can lead to people thinking this was an act of retaliation. Ms. Wood also discredited Lutner's story about the BBQ on Sunday night, I think she believed he was lying and was repeating what he said about retaliation because she thinks Lutner killed the family or knows who did. Ms. Wood has a good point...Lutner was the last named person seen with the family shortly before they were murdered. And we haven't heard from Lutner since he turned himself in. LE has spoken for him, and he hasn't given any jailhouse interviews. And Lutner is still in jail...

Since then, LE has stated there was a large gathering of people there that night.

IMO, this was an act of retaliation. IMO, a female accomplice who knew the family well was involved and wouldn't let the murderer(s) kill the younger children. IMO, Slade knew too much about what was going on and that is why he was killed. As LE isn't giving us much info, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
I read in similar article on KREM dated May 19th regarding Lutner's girlfriend:
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/NW_051805IDBamberalertLJ.2876e9709.html
Robert Lutner's girlfriend, who asked to remain anonymous, said she had spoken with her boyfriend on Tuesday and that Lutner had said the murders were "executions" and were "gang-related"; investigators have never said anything about the nature of the murders other than all three victims had been bound.

[Wayne]

Thanks Rle7,

I learned some things from you post.

Quote “Lutner had told his girlfriend the Tuesday after the killings that they were gang-related and the family was executed. He also talked to Jesse Groene's girlfriend (Corrine Tosh?) over the phone and was upset and crying.” ….All news to me.

IMO I don’t believe that Lutner was the killer and think he is in jail for his protection. He may have actually seen or met the killers at the house that day. I don’t know exactly how long one can be held for probation violation… eventually this will be an issue.


Still think the BBQ was LE’s phrasing only and used to lure out those who were at the house that afternoon/evening for questioning. IMO all who dropped by with the exception of Mark’s brother that day were there to buy/sell drugs.

Gee with so many people who have made statement that would lead you to believe they have a good idea who is responsible, it is truly amazing that solving this crime seems to be going nowhere fast!
I tend to agree that Lutner is in jail for his protection.

One can be held for quite a while - up to one year - on a probation violation although it seems many serve 7 days (1st violation) to longer terms (subsequent violations). It does vary from state to state.

[chicoliving]

Just a thought......Gene Ralston that does the side scan sonar searches will not be going to Aruba to help as he has cases in ID and TX where he is needed. Made me wonder if he's going to be searching for the Groene children??? Of course there are probably other missing persons and cases in ID but it did make me stop and wonder.

[Lili]

I read in similar article on KREM dated May 19th regarding Lutner's girlfriend:
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/NW_051805IDBamberalertLJ.2876e9709.html
Sorry about my previous statement "Sadly, I think the lack of news releases from LE is making everyone look bad." I guess I should have worded that differently. I know LE is holding info close and making sure they have their "ducks in a row". It's just all so frustrating.

Wayne, I am so glad you had reference to that statement, I have been looking for that. I knew I read that Lutner had made the statement to his unidentified girlfriend.

Also wanted to share this article that I found today, I found it interesting: Note the name "Butler" in this article. There is also a "Butler" on the list of Kootenai Co. Sheriff's Office Warrent Round-up ( http://www.ruralnorthwest.com/artman/publish/article_5110.shtml ) Wonder if they are related.

Fighting hate: Idaho city battled white supremacists for two decades
COEUR D'ALENE, IDAHO -- This is not a hate-filled community, and never has been. But for more than two decades Coeur d'Alene, a community beautifully nestled between mountain slopes and an alpine lake, was nearly synonymous with the ugliness of racism.
Read further at: http://www.dailychronicle.com/articles/2005/04/03/news/01alene.txt

[inquisitive-mind]

I'm new to this forum so forgive me if I missed this information. What is knowned about the father, Steve Groene, and about the "motorcycle club" that he belongs to?

inquisitive-mind

[Gracelin]

Welcome To WS inquisitive-mind,

What is knowned about the father, Steve Groene, and about the "motorcycle club" that he belongs to?

There is a thread on Steve, I'm not at all sure what the name of the club he rode with is?Perhaps someone else will welcome you with that information.

[Tom'sGirl]

I'm new to this forum so forgive me if I missed this information. What is knowned about the father, Steve Groene, and about the "motorcycle club" that he belongs to?

inquisitive-mind
To my knowledge no "club" has ever been mentioned. Steve wears a hat with a "EasyRiders" logo on it......that's all I know ! :rolleyes:

[Liz]

Hi and welcome, inquisitive-mind.

Lili, I tried repeatedly to access that article you linked and I could not get rid of the free pizza pop-up offer. I even tried googling it and would get that same pop-up. Can you give us the gist of it?

[CaliKid]

I guess you didn't feel that way when you posted that there is a high percentage of radical bigots in Idaho?
Yes, Liz, there are radical bigots in Idaho. I was not trying to imply that most people who live in Idaho are bigots. I meant that many bigots, especially those associated with white supremacy groups, like rural, woodsy areas such as Idaho.

From this link on the Aryan Nation: http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Aryan_Nations.asp?xpicked=3&item=an


Founder and Leader: Richard Butler (1918-2004)
Splinter groups (and leaders): Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood ( Charles Juba, based in Pennsylvania); Church of the Sons of Yahweh (Morris Gullett, based in Louisiana)
Founded: Mid-1970s
Headquarters : Hayden, Idaho
Background: Butler first became involved with the Christian Identity movement after serving in the U.S. Air Force during World War II. He studied under Wesley Swift, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ Christian, until Swift died. Butler then formed Aryan Nations.
Media: Internet, videos, posters, e-mail, chat rooms, online bulletin boards, conferences. Ideology: Christian Identity, white supremacy, neo-Nazi, paramilitary Connections: Aryan Nations has had members in common with several other white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups, including National Alliance, the Ku Klux Klan and The Silent Brotherhood/The Order Recent Developments:

It further states in the article- Hayden Lake, Idaho * an otherwise peaceful community * was long considered by many white supremacists to be the "international headquarters of the White race," as Butler dubbed it. To aid in recruitment efforts, build support and strengthen alliances among a range of right-wing extremist groups, Aryan Nations hosted white supremacist summer "festivals," known as the World Congress of Aryan Nations, at its 20-acre northern Idaho compound. Patrolled by a security force of armed guards and dogs, Butler's property provided the dual advantages of being remote from potential intrusions by law enforcement officials, counterdemonstrators or media, while also providing an atmosphere of rugged, unspoiled outdoors commensurate with the survivalist and separatist sensibilities of many visitors.

[CaliKid]

I tend to agree that Lutner is in jail for his protection. One can be held for quite a while - up to one year - on a probation violation although it seems many serve 7 days (1st violation) to longer terms (subsequent violations). It does vary from state to state
I agree, Wayne, and have almost from the point where they said Lutner was no longer a person of interest but was being held on the probation violation.

[Liz]

Yes, Liz, there are radical bigots in Idaho. I was not trying to imply that most people who live in Idaho are bigots. I meant that many bigots, especially those associated with white supremacy groups, like rural, woodsy areas such as Idaho.


CaliKid, I'd imagine there are radical bigots in every state of the U.S. You may not have been trying to imply that most people who live in Idaho are bigots, but when you post:


"Idaho, due to its rural nature, has a high percentage of radical bigots and militia-type individuals."


It sure kinda came out that way. (imo)


I meant that many bigots, especially those associated with white supremacy groups, like rural, woodsy areas such as Idaho.


I'd welcome any references you have to substantiate the above as fact. Fyi, about 50% of Idaho is actually high plains desert.


You did leave out an important part of the article that you linked, which states how the Aryan Nation leader, Richard Butler, moved to Idaho from California.


You quoted the part of the article that Hayden Lake, was considered the "International Headquarters". It was the international headquarters, only because owner, "Richard Butler dubbed it", as such.

If you'll research further, you'll probably find that at least 99% of Idahoans considered Richard Butler, and his supremacist followers, to be a plank in the eye of Idahoans, and their state.

It concerned me that you seemed worried about someone judging a biker (or bikers) as bad, because you know Mark Lunsford is a 'good biker'.

Yet, you didn't hesitate to stereotype the state of Idaho, demonizing a large percentage of it's residents; by posting that Idaho is inhabited by a "large percentage of radical bigots" ("and militia-types", to boot.) Both are unsubstantiated and untrue.

Those stereotypes truly hang around longer than the plague; especially once they're on the internet.

Once the bell is rung, it's really impossible to unring it.

[close_enough]

lots of posts since i last checked in...had to run my car to the garage next door, so i'm back with coffee....ok, so i know this is O/T :crazy:

[close_enough]

IMO I dont believe LE knows where the children are. There is no risk to the children being in protective custody and it would be highly unlikely that the perps would continue down that path in trying to then kill the children. As for the thought that the children may be dead and LE knows about, here again it doesnt make logical sense to withhold that information. Obviously the perps would know that the children are dead so there would be no point to withholding that information. If they truly wanted to go after Steve, Vance or Jesse they could have already. Lutner is the exception as he is in LE's custody. I truly believe if LE knew where the children were they would get them and it would be broadcast to the public so that we would feel more secure. I agree that LE probably knows more than they are saying involving who a prime suspect is, but as to the rest hmmmm.....IMO

i agree...good points..

[Wayne]

Yes, Liz, there are radical bigots in Idaho. I was not trying to imply that most people who live in Idaho are bigots. I meant that many bigots, especially those associated with white supremacy groups, like rural, woodsy areas such as Idaho.

From this link on the Aryan Nation: http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Aryan_Nations.asp?xpicked=3&item=an


Founder and Leader: Richard Butler (1918-2004)
Splinter groups (and leaders): Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood ( Charles Juba, based in Pennsylvania); Church of the Sons of Yahweh (Morris Gullett, based in Louisiana)
Founded: Mid-1970s
Headquarters : Hayden, Idaho
Background: Butler first became involved with the Christian Identity movement after serving in the U.S. Air Force during World War II. He studied under Wesley Swift, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ Christian, until Swift died. Butler then formed Aryan Nations.
Media: Internet, videos, posters, e-mail, chat rooms, online bulletin boards, conferences. Ideology: Christian Identity, white supremacy, neo-Nazi, paramilitary Connections: Aryan Nations has had members in common with several other white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups, including National Alliance, the Ku Klux Klan and The Silent Brotherhood/The Order Recent Developments:

It further states in the article- Hayden Lake, Idaho * an otherwise peaceful community * was long considered by many white supremacists to be the "international headquarters of the White race," as Butler dubbed it. To aid in recruitment efforts, build support and strengthen alliances among a range of right-wing extremist groups, Aryan Nations hosted white supremacist summer "festivals," known as the World Congress of Aryan Nations, at its 20-acre northern Idaho compound. Patrolled by a security force of armed guards and dogs, Butler's property provided the dual advantages of being remote from potential intrusions by law enforcement officials, counterdemonstrators or media, while also providing an atmosphere of rugged, unspoiled outdoors commensurate with the survivalist and separatist sensibilities of many visitors.Interesting information, CaliKid.

Lutner was said to be living in Hayden at the time of the murders...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/18/idaho.amber/
Capt. Ben Wolfinger said 33-year-old Robert Roy Lutner of Hayden, Idaho, called the department. But the spokesman wouldn't say where Lutner was.According to this:
http://www.hometownlocator.com/PlaceDetail.cfm?SCFIPS=16055&City=Hayden
Hayden Idaho has a population of under 10,000 - with 3,714 housing units. IMO, that is a relatively small town.

I wonder if there could be a connection? I wonder who Lutner's girlfriend is and if she might be somehow involved?

[close_enough]

IMO, the lack of news releases from LE is NOT making everyone look bad. I know I am not thrilled with LE's news releases on this case - but I believe LE has their reasons. As painful as it might be for some, I am certain LE will explain their reasoning when, in their opinion, the time is right.

I agree - We all say things that we don't really mean.

My post included a few situations under which LE might supress releasing information. My apology if it offended any one.

i understand what you're saying about "vigilante" justice, being tossed out in the air, during a conversation....bikers or non-bikers...you didn't offend me..

[close_enough]

Capt. Ben Wolfinger said 33-year-old Robert Roy Lutner of Hayden, Idaho, called the department. But the spokesman wouldn't say where Lutner was

wonder if maybe LE worried that Steve & Vance might go "have a little talk" w/Lutner, before they could??

[close_enough]

Yes, Liz, there are radical bigots in Idaho. I was not trying to imply that most people who live in Idaho are bigots. I meant that many bigots, especially those associated with white supremacy groups, like rural, woodsy areas such as Idaho.

From this link on the Aryan Nation: http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Aryan_Nations.asp?xpicked=3&item=an


Founder and Leader: Richard Butler (1918-2004)
Splinter groups (and leaders): Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood ( Charles Juba, based in Pennsylvania); Church of the Sons of Yahweh (Morris Gullett, based in Louisiana)
Founded: Mid-1970s
Headquarters : Hayden, Idaho
Background: Butler first became involved with the Christian Identity movement after serving in the U.S. Air Force during World War II. He studied under Wesley Swift, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ Christian, until Swift died. Butler then formed Aryan Nations.
Media: Internet, videos, posters, e-mail, chat rooms, online bulletin boards, conferences. Ideology: Christian Identity, white supremacy, neo-Nazi, paramilitary Connections: Aryan Nations has had members in common with several other white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups, including National Alliance, the Ku Klux Klan and The Silent Brotherhood/The Order Recent Developments:

It further states in the article- Hayden Lake, Idaho * an otherwise peaceful community * was long considered by many white supremacists to be the "international headquarters of the White race," as Butler dubbed it. To aid in recruitment efforts, build support and strengthen alliances among a range of right-wing extremist groups, Aryan Nations hosted white supremacist summer "festivals," known as the World Congress of Aryan Nations, at its 20-acre northern Idaho compound. Patrolled by a security force of armed guards and dogs, Butler's property provided the dual advantages of being remote from potential intrusions by law enforcement officials, counterdemonstrators or media, while also providing an atmosphere of rugged, unspoiled outdoors commensurate with the survivalist and separatist sensibilities of many visitors.

yes, i read this early on, on a different thread (i think)...well, not this, but Butler was mentioned....i did a search on him then, myself...wild stuff...i do know what you're saying about "rural woodsy"...as the article mentions, Idaho would be heaven for this kind of thing..."unspoiled outdoors", survivalists & all.....i read somewhere else also, that the "group" semi-split up, after Butler's death, but it that it's known there's still a lot of Aryan Nation there....anyway, i don't think they have anything to do with this case, but it IS interesting stuff...plus i had never connected that Lutner lives in Hayden...hmmmm

[close_enough]

Hi dragonfly. There was quite a bit of discussion on this article when I first posted it last month. Look at this link for those discussions:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23766&page=3&pp=25

The comment about retaliation combined with Steve Groene's statement that the children "had nothing to do with any of this" led a lot of posters to speculate that both Ms. Wood and Steve had an idea of who did this.

Since then, Steve said in a Father's Day article that he meant that the children were not involved with anything dangerous enough to warrant killing them and Steve did not know who would do this. Ms. Wood has never publicly explained her comments.

Looking back on it now... I think Ms. Wood was just repeating what the news was reporting at the time. Lutner had told his girlfriend the Tuesday after the killings that they were gang-related and the family was executed. He also talked to Jesse Groene's girlfriend (Corrine Tosh?) over the phone and was upset and crying. That combined with reports of high drug use in the area and the criminal element this family associated with can lead to people thinking this was an act of retaliation. Ms. Wood also discredited Lutner's story about the BBQ on Sunday night, I think she believed he was lying and was repeating what he said about retaliation because she thinks Lutner killed the family or knows who did. Ms. Wood has a good point...Lutner was the last named person seen with the family shortly before they were murdered. And we haven't heard from Lutner since he turned himself in. LE has spoken for him, and he hasn't given any jailhouse interviews. And Lutner is still in jail...

Since then, LE has stated there was a large gathering of people there that night.

IMO, this was an act of retaliation. IMO, a female accomplice who knew the family well was involved and wouldn't let the murderer(s) kill the younger children. IMO, Slade knew too much about what was going on and that is why he was killed. As LE isn't giving us much info, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

i went back, & checked that link....i remember the comment about retaliation being made, also....i think you're right; it was what was on her mind, after hearing everything about the crime scene..."bound, gagged, beat" would scare anyone into thinking of retaliation...it would me, especially if i knew meth use/dealing was involved....i know she only says she knows of Mark smoking pot, but she might not come out & say..."yeah, my son did meth"...

btw, who did Lutner talk too first???...his girlfriend, or the Tosh girl, Jesse's girlfriend...has it ever been stated?

[Lili]

Hi and welcome, inquisitive-mind.

Lili, I tried repeatedly to access that article you linked and I could not get rid of the free pizza pop-up offer. I even tried googling it and would get that same pop-up. Can you give us the gist of it?
Not up to free pizza today? :) Sorry, it opens ok for me. Anyway...the article basically compares Coeur d'Alene and Bozeman. It is a long article, but will try to give you the basics:

"Coeur d'Alene and Bozeman share many similarities....
One thing the cities don't share is Coeur d'Alene's intense, decades-long battle against white supremacist groups including the Aryan Nations.....

...That community's response would ultimately change Idaho law, change the way hate groups were dealt with and become a model for response for other communities across the country. Coeur d'Alene, .... in 1990 became Idaho's first All-America City. It won the award because of its human rights work........

......Richard Butler moved to Coeur d'Alene in 1973. He bought 20 acres of land near Hayden Lake, about 10 miles north of Coeur d'Alene, and called it the world headquarters of his Aryan Nations.

For the next seven years the compound was pretty quiet. Locals knew he was there and that he was recruiting members. They occasionally saw Aryan Nations members in the area..........

...........The wakeup call for Coeur d'Alene came one night in late 1980. Vandals tagged a restaurant owned by Jewish businessman Sid Rosen with Nazi slogans and anti-Semitic slurs.......a second ugly threat emerged. A man named Keith Gilbert began harassing a multi-racial Coeur d'Alene family. He took to following one of the boys home from school.

"If you can imagine, threatening a child's life, but he did it," said Norm Gissel, a Coeur d'Alene attorney who also became involved in the human rights movement....

That harassment so outraged Mend that he became committed to fighting the white supremacists.

He and other residents formed the Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations. Present at the first meeting were the incoming Kootenai County prosecutor and the incoming undersheriff.

...In 1983, the task force was instrumental in getting Idaho's Malicious Harassment Act passed, which made it a felony to harass anyone. In 1987, Idaho passed the Civil Remedies Act, which made it possible for victims to sue the harasser for actual damages, punitive damages and attorney fees. The same year, Idaho's Domestic Terrorist Act made paramilitary training by two or more individuals punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a $50,000 fine. Other laws restricted explosives, mandated reporting by law enforcement of hate crimes and prohibited filing false liens.

...no matter what Richard Butler did, "We would never attend anything he did, but whenever he did something, we would do something of even greater magnitude," Stewart said.

For example, in 1985, when Butler held his world congress meeting in Coeur d'Alene, the media came from all over the country and Butler drew about 300 followers to his rallies. Meanwhile, at a city park some distance away, the community held a peace rally that drew 1,000 people.... (*see my note below)

....Richard Butler died in September, 2004. By that time he'd seen his Aryan Nations lose its compound in a multi-million judgment in a lawsuit brought by a woman and her son who had been assualted by neo-Nazi guards.

The 20 acres was given to North Idaho College. Every building was razed, every sign of its former purpose buried or carted off. After allowing time for the land to "heal," a college official said, the property will become a peace park."
http://www.dailychronicle.com/articles/2005/04/03/news/01alene.txt

(* Note: this is the same thing we did in our town a few years back when the KKK held a rally on the court house steps. Only about a dozen KKK people showed up, few people to listen to them. But have to share this, an elderly lady walked the 4 blocks to the court house with her lawn chair so she could see and hear them. She wanted to hear "what kind of BS they were trying to spread." She was a sweetheart, just passed on last year, I think she was 96!)

[mysteriew]

Please understand this is my own opinion:

I do not believe that LE knows where the kids are- First there are two investigations here. Why tie up investigators looking for the kids if they know where they are? And if they knew where the kids were and were hiding that info, they could be endangering the poss. future court case over the murders. Any defense atty would be happy to have something like that to use in a murder court case. Their first priority right now is the safety of the kids, but they won't do anything to endanger the court case.
That is not to say that they may have theories and/or undisclosed suspects. They may even have someone under surveillance (sp) at this time. But may waiting to move on the case to see if they can find some evidence of where they have hidden the kids or what happened to them.
They won't usually notify the public of suspects except in cases where they need assistance in locating them or are trying to find witnesses. As a matter of fact, LE's get sued for naming suspects before they actually have enough proof to arrest them.
Sadly I think that the reason that we aren't hearing anything, is because there is nothing new being developed that can be reported. They are in the leg work stage of investigation. Talk to witnesses and people who call in tips, get their info and what they may have heard and try to follow up on the info to see if it develops into anything. This part is a slow process. One person may have given them the info they need, but they have to work through the 1100 or so tips they have recieved to get to that one person. When you add into that the fact that if they talk to the guilty party, they are going to lie. And that lie will stand- unless or until they get other info that proves they lied.
Someone out there knows what happened. But until or unless they decide to come forward, it will be a long slow process.

[Beyond Belief]

I did a little reading on Richard Butler, 2001 there was still activity in Coeur dalene.
Excerp
In January 2001, in the wake of these defections, Butler made an effort to rejuvenate Aryan Nations, appointing 21-year-old Shawn Winkler as Acting Staff Leader and Youth Activities Coordinator. Winkler already held permits for three marches for the upcoming year, in Sandpoint, Rathdrum and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Butler also announced the start-up of a new telephone hot line, along with a new Webmaster, Pastor August Kreis III, who has also run a Web site for another Identity group, the Posse Comitatus. Based in Pennsylvania, Kreis serves as Ambassador to the seven states in Aryan Nations' northeast region. Butler also defiantly declared that the organization was reverting to its original name, Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations - a decision whose legality, or seriousness, is uncertain.


I wonder if anyone, Aryan followers, that had been in prison, was released just prior to the disappearance and there was something to connect them to this crime? There would be alot of hush hush if this involved that vicious group.

[dragonfly]

Mysteriew, I agree with your statements.

[That is not to say that they may have theories and/or undisclosed suspects. They may even have someone under surveillance (sp) at this time. But may waiting to move on the case to see if they can find some evidence of where they have hidden the kids or what happened to them.]

I fact does anyone remember the interview with Nancy Grace (I think) where the question was put to Captain W. if there had been any randsom demands, He answer was "no Comment". They may be in communication with the suspects..

I do believe though that if LE had absolutely no idea at all where the kids were we would be hearing more reports of possible sighting that they were checking out, and a lot more requests for help from the public.

[Rle7]

btw, who did Lutner talk too first???...his girlfriend, or the Tosh girl, Jesse's girlfriend...has it ever been stated?
The news articles didn't state any specific time, I think Lutner talked to both on the Tuesday after the killings.

[scifier]

I did a little reading on Richard Butler, 2001 there was still activity in Coeur dalene.
Excerp
In January 2001, in the wake of these defections, Butler made an effort to rejuvenate Aryan Nations, appointing 21-year-old Shawn Winkler as Acting Staff Leader and Youth Activities Coordinator. Winkler already held permits for three marches for the upcoming year, in Sandpoint, Rathdrum and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Butler also announced the start-up of a new telephone hot line, along with a new Webmaster, Pastor August Kreis III, who has also run a Web site for another Identity group, the Posse Comitatus. Based in Pennsylvania, Kreis serves as Ambassador to the seven states in Aryan Nations' northeast region. Butler also defiantly declared that the organization was reverting to its original name, Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations - a decision whose legality, or seriousness, is uncertain.


I wonder if anyone, Aryan followers, that had been in prison, was released just prior to the disappearance and there was something to connect them to this crime? There would be alot of hush hush if this involved that vicious group.Butler is dead and the Aryan Nations Group is no longer around. They were nothing in the first place. This community in Hayden which I live is has never been a racist community. That was media hype because of the aryan nations. Why the media gave them any kind of coverage is beyond me. They held parades where the only people who showed up were hecklers. There largest group of marchers was maybe 20. It was a non-issue, but the media played it up. In the community they were a standing joke. Bringing there ilk into this subject is really ridiculous as they feed off of publicity (however bad) and would claim responsibility to the crime and why they did it. I as a community member of Hayden I am sick of the poeple who dont know this community other than what the media has fed them forming negative opinions on it. Furthermore, I am one of those who moved here from California, as well as 1/2 the rest of the population here to get away from all the crime and problems in California, not to be part of some white brotherhood. White supremacy had nothing to do with this crime, none of the facts as we know it even remotely points to it. Of course, this is just MO.

[Liz]

Not up to free pizza today? :) Sorry, it opens ok for me. Anyway...the article basically compares Coeur d'Alene and Bozeman. It is a long article, but will try to give you the basics:

"Coeur d'Alene and Bozeman share many similarities....
One thing the cities don't share is Coeur d'Alene's intense, decades-long battle against white supremacist groups including the Aryan Nations.....

...That community's response would ultimately change Idaho law, change the way hate groups were dealt with and become a model for response for other communities across the country. Coeur d'Alene, .... in 1990 became Idaho's first All-America City. It won the award because of its human rights work...... >>>Snip>>>


Oh yeah, I'm up for free pizza! ;) Thanks for providing the synopsis of the article, Lili. I appreciate that! I am still getting the pizza pop-up and am still unable to access it today.
:confused:

What you said about the KKK marches on the courthouse steps in your area was basically the same thing that went on in Coeur d'Alene, when the Aryans marched or had their annual parade, or rally. No more than a couple dozen Aryan members would show up but there would be a hundred or two or people protesting them. (We would see video footage on the news and it was really a pathetic attempt at 'organized anything'.)

I think Idaho now has some of the strictest laws in the nation against Aryan wannabees, racists and bigots. Most of those types left the state, prior to Richard Butler's death last year.

Idaho: We're not all Aryans :p

[Liz]

KCSO warrant round-up


Hi Tom'sGirl! If you copied all that for me, I appreciate it! ;) But I accessed the Kootenai county warrant round up link, just fine. But thank you, anyway.


On a different note, not directed at you, TG; or at anyone, specifically ...

If anyone thinks there may be a link, due to the person with the last name "Butler" on the warrant list, uh ----- "Close! But no ceegar!

There are tons of people with the last name of "Butler", and believe me, 99.99999% of them are NOT related to the Aryan Nation founder, Richard Butler. LOL! :doh:

[Lili]

Thanks for setting it straight about the Aryans. Didn't mean to offend anyone.
Very similar to the group (very small group) from this area...a lot of hype that feeds off the media. The 'rally' that was to happen was supposed to have hundreds of members coming into the community for this big rally. Like I said, maybe half a dozen showed up.

I want to write more, but my dog needs to GO now!

[Tom'sGirl]

Hi Tom'sGirl! If you copied all that for me, I appreciate it! ;) But I accessed the Kootenai county warrant round up link, just fine. But thank you, anyway.


On a different note, not directed at you, TG; or at anyone, specifically ...

If anyone thinks there may be a link, due to the person with the last name "Butler" on the warrant list, uh ----- "Close! But no ceegar!

There are tons of people with the last name of "Butler", and believe me, 99.99999% of them are NOT related to the Aryan Nation founder, Richard Butler. LOL! :doh:
Hi back Liz,

Yeah, I copied that entire stupid thing just for you :blowkiss: as I thought maybe you were having "puter problems". I was shocked the photos came up too........geez!

You are more than right about tons of "Butler's", common name and not out of the ordinary like many others mentioned.

[Liz]

Butler is dead and the Aryan Nations Group is no longer around. They were nothing in the first place. This community in Hayden which I live is has never been a racist community. That was media hype because of the aryan nations. Why the media gave them any kind of coverage is beyond me. They held parades where the only people who showed up were hecklers. There largest group of marchers was maybe 20. It was a non-issue, but the media played it up. In the community they were a standing joke. Bringing there ilk into this subject is really ridiculous as they feed off of publicity (however bad) and would claim responsibility to the crime and why they did it. I as a community member of Hayden I am sick of the poeple who dont know this community other than what the media has fed them forming negative opinions on it. Furthermore, I am one of those who moved here from California, as well as 1/2 the rest of the population here to get away from all the crime and problems in California, not to be part of some white brotherhood. White supremacy had nothing to do with this crime, none of the facts as we know it even remotely points to it. Of course, this is just MO.


I had not read your post when I posted a little earlier, Scifier, but I am so thankful that you spoke out, as a local to the area! Thank you!

I empathize with you. I can't imagine how sick you must get having to put up with the nonsensical insinuations and innuendos, about the area.

Idaho certainly has been stigmatized by those rotten racists! As I posted earlier, it's impossible to unring that bell!

Reading some of the posts on this forum has enabled me to realize how that saying came about that says about people gaining a little knowledge ... or people being armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Something like that. ;)


Idaho: Potatoskins - YES! Skinheads - NO!

[Liz]

Thanks for setting it straight about the Aryans. Didn't mean to offend anyone.
Very similar to the group (very small group) from this area...a lot of hype that feeds off the media. The 'rally' that was to happen was supposed to have hundreds of members coming into the community for this big rally. Like I said, maybe half a dozen showed up.

I want to write more, but my dog needs to GO now!


Lili, I wasn't offended by anything you posted. If anything, your article seemed like an attempt to clear things up, at least from the synopsis you gave me. ;)

The thing that I would like to emphasize that you said in your post, is that when these rallies or whatever they call them are held, their people that do show up, don't even live in the area, and often not even the state in which they're marching. They go back to their nice lives in their home states without the stigma attached to them; meanwhile denigrating the reputation of the city and state they marched in. Kind of like closet protestors, I guess.

Thanks for your post, Lili! :)


Hi back Liz,


Yeah, I copied that entire stupid thing just for you :blowkiss: as I thought maybe you were having "puter problems". I was shocked the photos came up too........geez!

You are more than right about tons of "Butler's", common name and not out of the ordinary like many others mentioned.


That was so sweet of you, TG! :blowkiss: backatcha! Just a thought ... is it to late to edit it or delete?

Yes, lots and lots of Butlers and buttheads, too.
lol!

Idaho: Potatoheads - YES! Skinheads - NO!

[close_enough]

The news articles didn't state any specific time, I think Lutner talked to both on the Tuesday after the killings.

hey, thanks for responding, Rle7...i was curious about this...how do we know that Lutner didn't talk to Tosh first, then called his girlfriend?...i mean, it would make sense that Tosh, being Jesse's girlfriend, would have known about them being bound, gagged, & beaten, & she could have told Lutner this info, therefore making it sound like it was "execution-style", & he repeated this to his own girlfriend....

just a thought, since we don't actually know what time Lutner talked to either one....

[Beyond Belief]

Butler is dead and the Aryan Nations Group is no longer around. They were nothing in the first place. This community in Hayden which I live is has never been a racist community. That was media hype because of the aryan nations. Why the media gave them any kind of coverage is beyond me. They held parades where the only people who showed up were hecklers. There largest group of marchers was maybe 20. It was a non-issue, but the media played it up. In the community they were a standing joke. Bringing there ilk into this subject is really ridiculous as they feed off of publicity (however bad) and would claim responsibility to the crime and why they did it. I as a community member of Hayden I am sick of the poeple who dont know this community other than what the media has fed them forming negative opinions on it. Furthermore, I am one of those who moved here from California, as well as 1/2 the rest of the population here to get away from all the crime and problems in California, not to be part of some white brotherhood. White supremacy had nothing to do with this crime, none of the facts as we know it even remotely points to it. Of course, this is just MO.Thanks for the update. This site is wonderful for getting right to the heart of misconceptions. i found those boys right up the road from here.

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 Posted: 2:42 PM EST (1942 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/schuster.column/
SEBRING, Florida (CNN) -- A couple of hours up the road from where some September 11 hijackers learned to fly, the new head of Aryan Nation is praising them -- and trying to create an unholy alliance between his white supremacist group and al Qaeda.

[North Idaho native]

Hello, all..............I was surfing the web a few days ago, trying to gain more info on the Groene case and I stumbled along this site and am amazed! :) I have lived in N. Idaho all of my life and actually live 15 miles from the Groene crime scene..........I drive right by it every week day on my way to work. North Idaho has only one freeway running through the panhandle (I-90) and the Groene house is only maybe 150 yards from the freeway (there is a truck parking lane and huge lights on the freeway next to the Groene home). I am employed in the education systems here. Little Shasta was in a close friend of mine's classroom. Shasta was a "girly girl" as Jesse said, also, very shy and withdrawn. My friend's words, "She's definately not the happiest little girl."



I thought maybe I would post some information that I have heard around locally and that may not be covered in the media.


There is still a police officer that is posted 24 hours a day at the head of the Groene driveway. Last week for 4 days in a row there was a gold-colored unmarked chevy truck with a long (maybe 20ft.) unmarked, covered utility trailer parked at the Groene home (during the day) perhaps gathering..............?
Rumor, heard second hand: The Idaho Dept. of Health and Welfare had been in the home numerous times (recently) investigating possible neglect and sexual abuse (please know that this is a rumor, reliability on a 1-10, I would say 5)
Rumor, heard second hand: Slade Groene was the worst tortured of the three. LE believe that he was the first to be tortured perhaps even while Brenda and Mark were forced to watch. He was sexually mutulated. (as was Mark) (reliability on a 1-10, I would say 8) Along those lines.....I have heard through the educ. community that Slade was a sick kid, who had some real odd fascinations. (reliablility maybe a 5).
With that in mind, I thought I'd share a few theories that have run through my head.



1. Random. A sick truck driver with a perversion for young children was stopped at the truck pullout...............murdered the three, and took the younger two. (I know, unlikely, but ..........you never know)

2. I cannot get Steve Groene out of my head. Now, this is a what-if.....what if Slade wasn't his kid? Living the life-style that he and Brenda did, it could certainly be a possiblilty that both he and she know that he isn't his kid, yet still has the Groene last name. What-if Dylan and Shasta were being molested by Mark and even Slade? Wouldn't you have to have a lot of hatred for people to torture and beat them to death...doesn't a simple gunshot seem more humane? Why the torture? In MO, hatred. I believe that Steve, and a few friends, perhaps, committed this crime and have taken the younger two out of the house and have them hidden somewhere. We all know that Steve Groene has family up the ying-yang............





Just some thoughts............

[close_enough]

Hello, all..............I was surfing the web a few days ago, trying to gain more info on the Groene case and I stumbled along this site and am amazed! :) I have lived in N. Idaho all of my life and actually live 15 miles from the Groene crime scene..........I drive right by it every week day on my way to work. North Idaho has only one freeway running through the panhandle (I-90) and the Groene house is only maybe 150 yards from the freeway (there is a truck parking lane and huge lights on the freeway next to the Groene home). I am employed in the education systems here. Little Shasta was in a close friend of mine's classroom. Shasta was a "girly girl" as Jesse said, also, very shy and withdrawn. My friend's words, "She's definately not the happiest little girl."



I thought maybe I would post some information that I have heard around locally and that may not be covered in the media.


There is still a police officer that is posted 24 hours a day at the head of the Groene driveway. Last week for 4 days in a row there was a gold-colored unmarked chevy truck with a long (maybe 20ft.) unmarked, covered utility trailer parked at the Groene home (during the day) perhaps gathering..............?
Rumor, heard second hand: The Idaho Dept. of Health and Welfare had been in the home numerous times (recently) i