MOTIVE - IF Raven, then why?

[SouthEastSleuth]

More and more as the days tick by, with no arrest, people here are obviously getting frustrated…

1. Many assume the case is clear: Raven stabbed Janet to death. Period.

2. Others contend that there is just no way that Raven would ever hurt Janet, much less kill her.

3. And, the third contingent is simply undecided…not enough information to decide, etc.
Looking at the first scenario, I wanted to focus on the question of MOTIVE.

IF Raven in fact murdered Janet, then why?

Was this a premeditated murder? Had Raven carefully planned the events of April 26?

Or, did something trigger rage, and result in Janet’s murder that night?

POSSIBILITIES –

1. Finances. It seems clear by now that Raven and Janet were experiencing some really tough times, financially. Rent issues for certain. Other debt concerns? Day to day expenses? Legal expenses? Expenses, in general, versus income – Janet we know was working and earning income. We do NOT know for fact, what, if anything, Raven was doing, work-wise. Was there any other source of income?

Could there have been an argument that night over some financial issue that resulted in Janet’s murder?

Could there have been some argument about employment? IF Raven was not working, could a discussion about that have resulted in an argument or something that ended up with Janet being stabbed?

2. Embezzlement. This ties in on some level to finances, sure. We’ve been told that Janet had no knowledge of the embezzlement. But, was this whole issue one that still haunted their day to day lives? Were there arguments about it? Certainly until the issue was ever truly resolved, it must have hung over the household like some dark cloud. And with the ongoing embezzlement issues, there must have been at least some financial repercussions, i.e., legal expenses. And, beyond finances, the embezzlement is certainly another issue altogether – the fact the Janet must have now known that her husband was capable of criminal activity.

3. Infidelity. We have had all sorts of discussions here regarding Raven’s alleged infidelities. If they happened, when they happened, etc. Numerous people have confirmed that yes, there were infidelities, at least during the time Raven and Janet were not living together. Others have suggested the these infidelities continued, even after Raven and Janet reconciled. Were they still on-going in April 2005? Who knows. Was there evidence of any NEW infidelity on Raven’s part? Could Janet have found something, or heard something, that led to a confrontation that evening with Raven? Along those same lines, there was even discussion here about Raven’s sexuality. IF there is any truth to those rumors or speculation, could any of that played a part in the events of April 26th?

4. Temper. It’s been mentioned by several people who knew Raven personally, either now or in the past, that he was known for his temper. There is a report of an assault on a referee at a soccer game. Others have talked about his "short fuse" in general, with regards to temper. Raven himself wrote on one of his websites about his issues with his temper. All of that said, did his temper just get the best of him that night, for whatever reason? Did he just "snap", fly into a rage, about SOMETHING, and that rage was directed at Janet?

5. A new beginning. Be prepared folks, this one is cold and harsh. Raven wrote the day before Janet’s murder about being free… a new start… a new beginning. Raven, admittedly, has not had the smoothest of lives, some things his fault, some not. So, talking of a fresh start in life is perhaps natural and a good thing. But, is there a possibility that a fresh start and being "free" had anything to do with a fresh start, without Janet in the picture? I’m reminded of Mr. A pointing out early on that Raven’s writings on the website and the blog, were so egocentric. "I" this, and "me" that. Was Janet such an insignificant aspect of his life? Was he thinking of a life of just him and Kaiden, no Janet around? Sounds cold and calculating, for sure, but, just another thing to consider.

6. Marriage. This ties into many of the things mentioned above, most certainly. But, one has to wonder, with everything that had been going on in their lives, for many months, was the Abaroa’s marriage strong and solid? Is there any chance that Janet could have confronted Raven that evening and said something along the lines of, "I can’t do this anymore and I want us to take some time apart…." Again, speculation, for sure. But, say Janet did in fact say that to Raven that night, and, she also mentioned that not only did she want out or something, but that she also was going to take Kaiden with her - could that have resulted in rage, and ultimately murder?

All of these things are speculative, pure and simple. But, IF Raven did in fact murder Janet on April 26th, then there is SOME reason….one of these? Some variation of one of these? Or, something else????

[ewwwinteresting]

IF Raven in fact murdered Janet, then why?

Or, did something trigger rage, and result in Janet’s murder that night?
My opinion: Crime of Passion. Not Random, No media hype, LE not asking for help.

[JerseyGirl]

My opinion: Crime of Passion. Not Random, No media hype, LE not asking for help.My problem with this being a crime of passion is the apparent lack of evidence. Maybe there is evidence that they're just waiting on but apparently it hasn't been enough to make a quick arrest in any case. I would think that if this was a true crime of passion, Raven would have made some blunder that would have resulted in his arrest by now. If you spontaneously kill your spouse in a fit of rage, wouldn't you panic afterwards, leaving some solid evidence behind?

I believe that IF Raven did this, it was planned on some level.

[ewwwinteresting]

My problem with this being a crime of passion is the apparent lack of evidence. Maybe there is evidence that they're just waiting on but apparently it hasn't been enough to make a quick arrest in any case. I would think that if this was a true crime of passion, Raven would have made some blunder that would have resulted in his arrest by now. If you spontaneously kill your spouse in a fit of rage, wouldn't you panic afterwards, leaving some solid evidence behind?

I believe that IF Raven did this, it was planned on some level.
Speculation:
Unless he killed her at 8:00 or 9:00 pm and had 2 to 3 hours to panic, start thinking about himself, then clean up before he called 911. I would think that IF Raven planned it, he would have at least planned it so that the PD thought it was random. There would be a whole lot more suspects on a random murder. I mean, as much as we have all investigated, talked about, been told, etc., we can't even think of one other person besides Raven that did this. We haven't been told, by friends and close acquaintances that don't want to believe or can't believe that Raven did this, any other realistic possibility. IF this was a planned murder, imo, I would think that the perp would at least have gotten himself off the POI or suspect list.

You may be right, however, my gut is just telling me that Raven was already boiling over with life and something happened that night and he snapped.

[JerseyGirl]

Your points are valid, EI, but at the same time, we've heard that someone that knew Raven said that he was more arrogant than he was smart or something like that. Raven might THINK that he's capable of pulling off the perfect murder, but there's no guarantee that he's smart enough to make it appear random. As for the list of suspects, we have no idea if they have one or not, if Raven's still on it, etc. All we really know is that nearly 2 months after his wife's murder, Raven is still a free man.

We've heard that Raven has a temper but I also see Raven as being very calculating. Which of those is the stronger tendency, I wonder? IMO, the calculating nature is the stronger of the two.

[SouthEastSleuth]

I think something else to consider, as far as motive goes, IF Raven is the murderer, is what would he have to gain, after killing Janet -

- He talks on his websites about starting over, being free. So, would this freedom include being single again, just him and Kaiden?

- Would Janet's death solve any of the financial difficulties? Was there a life insurance policy(ies)? Would he be free to sell off more assets to raise money?

- There's been much talk about the alleged affairs. With Janet out of the picture, Raven would certainly be "free" to pursue other relationships..

- Would Janet's death allow Raven to pursue some other lifestyle in some other place? He wrote once about hoping to return to Northern Virginia in the years to come. Was he ready to go now? Or, to move on to Utah?

- Harsh, but, did he want Kaiden all to himself?

I've thought often about the subtitle of Raven's blog entry:

"If I were a bird...Wait I am!"

A raven is a bird, sure, the obvious. But boy, the symbolism there is creepy.

The raven in legend is a bird of ill omens, death, darkness, and ill will. I was told early on (unconfirmed) that Raven kept a stuffed raven in his office at Eurosport. I think of that stuffed raven, symbolic of just a name, sure, but also foreboding of such hard times to come - embezzling, losing a job, financial disaster, and the ultimate darkness, Janet's murder.

We don't often choose our names, certainly... But it does make me think, personally, that if I'm writing, "if I were a bird, wait, I am," that my name was something more sublime, i.e., Dove, Cardinal, or Robin.... versus the bird of death and ill omens... the irony would haunt me, for sure.

[Jenifred]

I like your question, SES. What's gained? We've seen that there is probably no sizable financial gain from Janet's death (unless there was some life insurance that we don't know about). The credit cards would have come due, there would still be cars to pay on, etc. But I think about Mark Hacking and he didn't have much to gain either by killing his wife, but he did because he was so deep in his various deceptions that he didn't see a way out. I think that this might be closely related to why Raven would kill his wife--maybe he was tired of disappointing her (not living up to the mormon standards or really any moral standards) and deceiving her. Maybe he didn't want any attachments so he could go do whatever he wanted. It sure seems like he was a weekend warrior. Maybe Janet wanted him to be at home more. Maybe he felt too restricted and wanted to be free...like a bird. And this was his way to get his freedom back (but then I wonder about Kaiden--you can't be too free with a baby around).

These are just my ramblings though.

[JerseyGirl]

I think that there were many times that Raven probably thought about how his life might be better without Janet - whether in terms of finances, freedom ... I don't know if he ultimately acted on it or not but I still believe it crossed his mind.

By all accounts, Janet was a good and pious woman. She had strong morals and seems to have stood by them. I wonder if looking at her daily might have made Raven feel guilty, or feel like he should feel guilty or something. So the best way to avoid having to look at himself and his own behaviors was to eliminate his "moral mirror" or his "moral compass", if you will, by which he may have been forced to measure himself. Get rid of the daily reminder that perhaps Janet was a better person or a better Mormon or a better parent. Maybe Raven compared himself to her, and couldn't handle the fact that he couldn't be the good person that she was.

[JerseyGirl]

Here's a really deranged thought. Raven seemed to want to be the best at everything. He boasted about his VX, he boasted about his motorcycle. He seems to have a tendency to inflate everything about himself. Now this is where it gets deranged ...

We know how much it seems that he adored Kaiden. Could it be that he thought that there was no way that he could measure up to Janet in Kaiden's eyes? That he could never be the favorite or preferred parent as long as Janet was around? With the VX, if someone's was better, he could simply add new parts or get a new paint job. When someone's a better parent, it's not as simple of a fix. He'd have to actually change himself as a person. Was that something of which he was capable? Or was it easier to eliminate what he may have viewed as his competition for Kaiden's love?

I apologize if this thought offends anyone. I know it sounds completely bizarre but then again, so does murder. I don't know what causes someone to do something so drastic, and if it's something that Raven did, I'm just trying to imagine why.

[ewwwinteresting]

"If I were a bird...Wait I am!"

A raven is a bird, sure, the obvious. But boy, the symbolism there is creepy.

The raven in legend is a bird of ill omens, death, darkness, and ill will. I was told early on (unconfirmed) that Raven kept a stuffed raven in his office at Eurosport. I think of that stuffed raven, symbolic of just a name, sure, but also foreboding of such hard times to come - embezzling, losing a job, financial disaster, and the ultimate darkness, Janet's murder.
So, did Raven live up to his name? Did he bring omens, death and darkness to others? It appears he did to his wife, was she the only one? Maybe it's only those he is close to. Maybe he is the "dark" one in his family. His mother may have had nothing to do with the embezzlement, but he used her name and address, bringing her into the nightmare. IMO, this goes beyond selfish!

[JerseyGirl]

I've heard it said that you should name your children carefully because people often grow into their name and its meaning. Whether or not that's true, I don't know but it is an interesting concept. I think Raven really likes his name ... all the way down to having a stuffed raven in his office.

[ewwwinteresting]

- There's been much talk about the alleged affairs. With Janet out of the picture, Raven would certainly be "free" to pursue other relationships..
Contemplating the ideas of various possible motives......we have heard about the affairs but no real detail. What if Raven was really involved with someone? IMO, Raven was trying to live up to something he wasn't.......a good mormon, a good husband, a good employee, a good soccer player, etc. Maybe this person was telling him how wonderful he was and really feeding his enlarged ego. Having to hear from Janet what a lousy husband, lousy lover, lousy provider, and whatever other insults she could possibly throw at him, was too much for him to handle. If Janet was out of the picture, he wouldn't have to go through a messy divorce (which he indicated in his blog, his parents went through). It is quite possible that he did not want to relive this nightmare he had as a child and thought it would be just easier to eliminate Janet then to divorce her.

[mad hatter]

Contemplating the ideas of various possible motives......we have heard about the affairs but no real detail. What if Raven was really involved with someone? IMO, Raven was trying to live up to something he wasn't.......a good mormon, a good husband, a good employee, a good soccer player, etc. Maybe this person was telling him how wonderful he was and really feeding his enlarged ego. Having to hear from Janet what a lousy husband, lousy lover, lousy provider, and whatever other insults she could possibly throw at him, was too much for him to handle. If Janet was out of the picture, he wouldn't have to go through a messy divorce (which he indicated in his blog, his parents went through). It is quite possible that he did not want to relive this nightmare he had as a child and thought it would be just easier to eliminate Janet then to divorce her.
Raven seems to be very materialistic. From what I've read it seems as though Janet was more of a possession than a wife. What if she was going to leave him? Would that, on top of his embezzlement charges and his financial problems be enough to put him over the edge? Just an idea...

[ewwwinteresting]

Raven seems to be very materialistic. From what I've read it seems as though Janet was more of a possession than a wife. What if she was going to leave him? Would that, on top of his embezzlement charges and his financial problems be enough to put him over the edge? Just an idea...
Now that is well put. Raven seemed to have a hard time selling/losing his possessions....it would seem that Janet was like a possession to him and he wasn't going to let her leave him.

[JerseyGirl]

If Raven is the perp, I tend to believe that it was motivated more by not wanting to be with Janet anymore than by not wanting to lose her. I'm not even exactly sure why I feel that way.

[mad hatter]

Now that is well put. Raven seemed to have a hard time selling/losing his possessions....it would seem that Janet was like a possession to him and he wasn't going to let her leave him.
Exactly! She was the trophy wife. How would it have looked if she was going to leave him. It's been posted that they were going through a seperation before but reconciled once they learned they were expecting a child. What if "something" happened and this time she was going to leave him for good?

[ewwwinteresting]

I would really like to see the autopsy report and not so much for TOD because with a short amount of time we are talking about, I think it is irrelevant.

What I would like to know is: Did Janet have a STD? Was Janet pregnant? I'm trying to figure out WHAT would be the straw that broke the Raven's back. If Janet found out Raven was still cheating on her and gave her a STD, she would be packing her bags. He would not like that. What if Janet found out she was pregnant again and told Raven and he flipped out (on meds or not) because he didn't want another child (remember the rumors of how he acted when she found out she was pregnant the other two times)? The autopsy report would show this. If she didn't have a STD and was not pregnant, then I will go back to figuring out other motives. Can anybody send me a copy of the autopsy report please?

[juliagoulia]

You're on to something there, EI. If Raven did it, what WAS the final straw? Janet left before without incident. They were separated for a few months. She was well aware of the financial trouble and the embezzelment charges. So we're back to guessing Janet's state of mind the day of the murder. Had she confided in a co-worker that led them to be worried for her? Had she spoken to a family member that day?

So many questions...:banghead:

[ewwwinteresting]

You're on to something there, EI. If Raven did it, what WAS the final straw? Janet left before without incident. They were separated for a few months. She was well aware of the financial trouble and the embezzelment charges. So we're back to guessing Janet's state of mind the day of the murder. Had she confided in a co-worker that led them to be worried for her? Had she spoken to a family member that day?

So many questions...:banghead:
We know Janet had close friends from ES but not sure how often she still talked to them. Did she have any friends at her new job? Hey, there is some people the media could talk to. The people that saw her that day. Did she tell them anything? Did she confide that she was leaving Raven? or that she was pregnant? Did she tell the babysitter that they were no longer needed since she was taking Kaiden and leaving town? Did the co-workers notice she was sick at times...possibly morning sickness? Hmmm.....is that enough questions to ask in one post?

[lauriej]

I would really like to see the autopsy report and not so much for TOD because with a short amount of time we are talking about, I think it is irrelevant.

What I would like to know is: Did Janet have a STD? Was Janet pregnant? I'm trying to figure out WHAT would be the straw that broke the Raven's back. If Janet found out Raven was still cheating on her and gave her a STD, she would be packing her bags. He would not like that. What if Janet found out she was pregnant again and told Raven and he flipped out (on meds or not) because he didn't want another child (remember the rumors of how he acted when she found out she was pregnant the other two times)? The autopsy report would show this. If she didn't have a STD and was not pregnant, then I will go back to figuring out other motives. Can anybody send me a copy of the autopsy report please?
(remember the rumors of how he acted when she found out she was pregnant the other two times)?

............wow..........i don't recall those rumours....

...but i do think that something happened THAT night , and it could have been something as simple as...

.....raven ( again ) did NOT pick up kaiden from the sitter........janet had to...

...raven ( again ) says he's not going to give kaiden his bath...........he has a soccer game he wants to get into...

...raven got mail that day re: the embezzlement court date, and (again )refuses to talk about/acknowledge it...

...janet was all-star soccer, outstanding academically, a person people looked to as a leader.....she had some back bone...

...who knows what went on in that house that night, but i think JANET was the one who was fed up, and told raven to pack his bags...
...and it all came crashing down on raven......
... janet is after all paying the bills....................he's going to lose janet...kaiden...credibility, self-esteem, a place to live...(omg! the VX???)

[ewwwinteresting]

. janet is after all paying the bills....................he's going to lose janet...kaiden...credibility, self-esteem, a place to live...(omg! the VX???)
:laugh: omg! the VX???

Don't forget the Ducati and all the gear, the mountain bikes, the Acura, the Durango and all his other "toys"! Can you imagine...Raven left with no materialistic items, no career or someone to support him, and having to pay child support for one (maybe two) children?

[Jenifred]

(remember the rumors of how he acted when she found out she was pregnant the other two times)?

............wow..........i don't recall those rumours....On one of the discussions, gm posted a list of things Raven had said/done once he found out Janet was pregnant. Although she was asked to delete a couple of them by someone (a family member? or her source?)

I just went through about 8 pages of her posts (she's got lots), and I can't find it. Maybe it was removed all together.

[juliagoulia]

:laugh: omg! the VX???

Don't forget the Ducati and all the gear, the mountain bikes, the Acura, the Durango and all his other "toys"! Can you imagine...Raven left with no materialistic items, no career or someone to support him, and having to pay child support for one (maybe two) children?
I agree that Janet was the one who was fed up. Maybe SHE pawned something of HIS to pay a bill? Any of his precious toys--I can see that setting him off. They took the checkbook, maybe the amount of a check matched the the pawn ticket stub.

I realize I'm pulling this out of thin air, but what else can we do after two months and still not a word... :(

[lauriej]

I agree that Janet was the one who was fed up. Maybe SHE pawned something of HIS to pay a bill? Any of his precious toys--I can see that setting him off. They took the checkbook, maybe the amount of a check matched the the pawn ticket stub.

I realize I'm pulling this out of thin air, but what else can we do after two months and still not a word... :(
...oh yeah, after the way raven was throwing "brand names " around on the christmas video...he definitely likes to own the best.............and make sure everyone is aware of it...

..the pawn ticket..
...it always had me wondering why the pawn ticket was in the durango, ( stated on the warrant that they found it there...)
... why was it hidden in plain sight ?
...sure would be good to know WHAT had been pawned....

...maybe janet came across it..........."what IS this raven...........???? you pawned my ________________???????

...after 2 months.......it's wonderful to see that we're not giving up............and seeing this through...there WILL be an arrest....there WILL be a trial.....and we'll be here for the duration...

...i'm all for giving LE the time they need to build their case......but i'm starting to get to the point that i think they should be giving some sort of statement to the public by now............don't the citizens of durham want to know what's going on ? don't they have a right to know ?

...doesn't LE have some accountability to the people they serve ? they haven't even updated their own web site since april 2,2005...
http://www.durhampolice.com/

...i don't live in durham NC, but what about the people who live on ferrand drive ? in the neighbourhood ,where a brutal stabbing took place ? if i were one of those people , i'd still be terribly frightened, ...no news...no statements by LE...no arrest............

...i'm losing faith in the durham LE...........what ARE they doing to resolve this ( very un-common tragic murder, ( according to their own stats....)
... everything? something? nothing ? they 're at a loss? they're on the verge of an arrest? surely they have a PR dept....or person..........

...didn't g/m have the email address early on, of the lead detective on the case?does anyone have that ?

...the silence from LE is frustrating...........

[ewwwinteresting]

...didn't g/m have the email address early on, of the lead detective on the case?does anyone have that ?

...the silence from LE is frustrating...........
Here it is:

Tips can be emailed directly to Detective Bennie Bradley:

bennie.bradley@durhamnc.gov

If anyone has a tip that needs to be passed along to LE and does not feel comfortable emailing directly, just pm me and I'll help pass the information along confidentially.

But, it is best if you have information to contact the detective directly yourself.
:blowkiss:

[lauriej]

................thank you.......

...and by the way..........that was quick!

...i hate to admit i spent quite a while looking around for it.........
...on the other hand.................this forum gets bigger by the day..................and that 's a GOOD thing...

[ewwwinteresting]

..maybe janet came across it..........."what IS this raven...........???? you pawned my ________________???????

or as julia pointed out: Raven stating "what IS this Janet??? you pawned my _____________??? and then went balistic!

...after 2 months.......it's wonderful to see that we're not giving up............and seeing this through...there WILL be an arrest....there WILL be a trial.....and we'll be here for the duration...

:clap: for us!

...i'm all for giving LE the time they need to build their case......but i'm starting to get to the point that i think they should be giving some sort of statement to the public by now............don't the citizens of durham want to know what's going on ? don't they have a right to know ?

If the public doesn't demand it, they aren't going to give it!

...i don't live in durham NC, but what about the people who live on ferrand drive ? in the neighbourhood ,where a brutal stabbing took place ? if i were one of those people , i'd still be terribly frightened, ...no news...no statements by LE...no arrest............

I think the major problem is that most of the durham citizens don't even know about it. We have one poster here that lives close to the neighborhood and she found out about this two months later on this site. It is so sad!

...the silence from LE is frustrating...........

and alarming.

[ewwwinteresting]

................thank you.......

...and by the way..........that was quick!

...i hate to admit i spent quite a while looking around for it.........
...on the other hand.................this forum gets bigger by the day..................and that 's a GOOD thing...
You go get him, girl :) Maybe you should send a cake, cookies or chocolate with your request:blowkiss:

[Jenifred]

I agree that Janet was the one who was fed up. Maybe SHE pawned something of HIS to pay a bill? Any of his precious toys--I can see that setting him off. They took the checkbook, maybe the amount of a check matched the the pawn ticket stub.

I realize I'm pulling this out of thin air, but what else can we do after two months and still not a word... :(
Hasn't Raven said in one of his postings that the Durango was the "family" car? You've got me thinking, julia, that maybe Janet did pawn something of Raven's. It sounds pretty reasonable that something like that could have set him off. Never thought of it that way.

[JerseyGirl]

What bothers me the most about the pawn ticket is this:

Raven liked expensive things and brand names. He mentioned REI as the source of his Christmas underwear. Did Raven regularly visit pawn shops, either to buy OR to sell? How did he come across this pawn shop - what was the occassion that caused him to seek it out in the first place? I just can't see Raven dealing with pawn shops unless there was a reason. Was the financial stress THAT bad? Why not just sell whatever it was on e-bay? Maybe whatever it was was so important to him that he wanted to get it back at a later time. That indicates that either he wanted to get a sum of money that couldn't be tracked, (although that seems unlikely since the ticket was in his car), or he really, really needed some cash. (Things perhaps were really bad or perhaps Janet was in control of the finances, and had tightened the belt significantly in order to try to get above water - many scenarios are possible.)

In any case, could Raven have sought out this pawn shop to BUY something at first? What do pawn shops typically sell? Jewelry, guns, knives (we know he liked to collect - maybe that was his initial connection to the shop), electronics equipment, etc. I don't know all of the common items as around here, pawn shops are very shady, and I make it a policy not to go into them.

But here is some pure speculation ... what if Raven had gone to the pawn shop to buy a gun? Maybe he thought it would be an easy buy - maybe asked the guy at the counter some questions, and after realizing that he couldn't buy one without paperwork or a waiting period, he decided to "sell" an item instead. Is it possible that Raven not only committed this crime but planned it, and had intended to get himself a gun? Perhaps he brought an item along to the shop to make it look like he was just making conversation during the transaction so as not to make himself stand out too much by asking too many questions about firearms? You know, he says ... "I want to sell this bracelet (or television or buck knife, etc.)", and while the guy is writing up the slip, Raven says "Wow, what a cool gun ... what kind is it? Oh yeah ... is there a firing range around here? Cool ... how much is it? Wow, if I buy it, can I take it today ...?", etc.

Sorry for the babbling ... I'm kind of formulating these ideas as I type. In any case, what is the date on the pawn ticket again? Is it mentioned?

[JerseyGirl]

I also wonder if it is something that might have been stolen. Did he have a piece of stolen merchandise that he sold? Or is it possible that he knew that the police were going to be at his home soon so he knew that he had to get rid of any questionable items before then? (Although this also seems unlikely due to the ticket being in the car - whatever it was, it seems quite possible that Raven had intended to go back later to pick the item back up.)

[ewwwinteresting]

I also wonder if it is something that might have been stolen. Did he have a piece of stolen merchandise that he sold? Or is it possible that he knew that the police were going to be at his home soon so he knew that he had to get rid of any questionable items before then? (Although this also seems unlikely due to the ticket being in the car - whatever it was, it seems quite possible that Raven had intended to go back later to pick the item back up.)
Ewww interesting JG :) Good concept. Ok, we have two more possibilities regarding the pawn ticket:

1. Janet pawned something of Raven's. I can see her being fed up and doing this to show him enough was enough. Look, we need money. I am going to start pawning your stuff (since you are not selling it) and if you get a job and start supporting your family, then you can go buy it back. Your precious material item is not gone forever unless you do nothing to retreive it.

or

2. Raven was selling stolen merchandise on ebay. Then he was caught and arrested. He had stolen merchandise hidden that LE didn't find (maybe in a storage facility, storage sheds out back, attic, garage, etc.) and knew he couldn't sell it on ebay without getting caught so he started pawning the items.

[lauriej]

I also wonder if it is something that might have been stolen. Did he have a piece of stolen merchandise that he sold? Or is it possible that he knew that the police were going to be at his home soon so he knew that he had to get rid of any questionable items before then? (Although this also seems unlikely due to the ticket being in the car - whatever it was, it seems quite possible that Raven had intended to go back later to pick the item back up.)
...there isn't a date on the pawn ticket...

http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=12;w=800
...just that is is yellow.........the # on the ticket...

...Or is it possible that he knew that the police were going to be at his home soon so he knew that he had to get rid of any questionable items before then?

...i think you're onto something there JG...i can see him pawning those 'last few items hanging around from the eurosport embezzlement'........

...as for the pawn ticket being in the durango, and recovered by LE..
...criminals don't think the way that 'we do'......
...he may have thought...ok...they'll check the house..........ask for my alibi...interview friends/neighbours/family.....etc........but he never thought that they would go over the durango..........( and is kicking himself for leaving that pawn ticket in the glove box ?)

...or................he left both the ticket and the knife, (that was also found in the durango,) there on purpose, knowing he could explain both away no problem.............thinking LE would test the knife.....see it was NOT the murder weapon........and clear him.......have a perfectly innocent explanation ready re: the pawn ticket, and clear him.....

...and back to the durango............it's still very odd to me that that one vehicle was the only one mentioned in LE's report........( and in great detail.......where it was parked, colour, VIN#...) , and yet NO mention of the VX...acura...ducati motorcycle...

...i hope LE didn't take his word that he was in the durango that night.....

[JerseyGirl]

......as for the pawn ticket being in the durango, and recovered by LE..
...criminals don't think the way that 'we do'......
...he may have thought...ok...they'll check the house..........ask for my alibi...interview friends/neighbours/family.....etc........but he never thought that they would go over the durango..........( and is kicking himself for leaving that pawn ticket in the glove box ?)Especially considering that only ONE vehicle seems to have been searched. Maybe the other cars were deliberately placed elsewhere, (including a vehicle that may have been used after the crime), and so he thought that the "smoking gun" was taken care of when he moved the other cars, forgetting completely about the pawn ticket in the Durango.

[icare]

Especially considering that only ONE vehicle seems to have been searched. Maybe the other cars were deliberately placed elsewhere, (including a vehicle that may have been used after the crime), and so he thought that the "smoking gun" was taken care of when he moved the other
cars, forgetting completely about the pawn ticket in the Durango.


There was blood in the Durango. From what I understand form a very close source, Raven says that after he found Janet, he had to go to the car to get the cell phone to call 911. That is why there is blood by the door and in the car.

[JerseyGirl]

There was blood in the Durango. From what I understand form a very close source, Raven says that after he found Janet, he had to go to the car to get the cell phone to call 911. That is why there is blood by the door and in the car.I knew that they swabbed the vehicle but I never heard whether or not it turned out to be blood. Still, where were the other vehicles?

[ewwwinteresting]

There was blood in the Durango. From what I understand form a very close source, Raven says that after he found Janet, he had to go to the car to get the cell phone to call 911. That is why there is blood by the door and in the car.
Thanks icare! What else can you tell us about the crime scene? Anything? Does your very close source (after talking to Raven) have a different possible scenerio of what happened that night...I'm trying to find something...anything that says it was somebody else!

[lauriej]

There was blood in the Durango. From what I understand form a very close source, Raven says that after he found Janet, he had to go to the car to get the cell phone to call 911. That is why there is blood by the door and in the car.
...it sounds like the cell phone was the only phone they had.........(and not unusual, many people don't have a land line anymore...)

...but............he comes home.........at approx. 11 p.m...is in for the night.........'kisses kaiden goodnite', as he has said.....................and yet, leaves the cell phone out in the car ?

...i don't have a cell phone.......( ok, we have an 'emergency ' one that my youngest takes with her to the park etc so i can reach her.....)

...but of course i know tons of people that have them............ and they ALWAYS have them within reach...seriously within reach..in their hand, pocket, purse.....or maybe on the charger( at which time they break out into a sweat because their cell is out of comission for a bit..)

...who would leave it out in the car for the night ?i don't buy that.....

[ewwwinteresting]

...who would leave it out in the car for the night ?i don't buy that.....
I'm not buying into that either right now AND it was confirmed that both Raven and Janet had a cell phone. IF he did leave it in the car, then why not use Janet's?

[lauriej]

I'm not buying into that either right now AND it was confirmed that both Raven and Janet had a cell phone. IF he did leave it in the car, then why not use Janet's?
...and if he did run back out to the car.......did he take kaiden with him ? did kaiden's clothes have blood on them too? or did he leave kaiden inside where there was quite possibly a murderer still hiding ?

...i don't believe that he did take kaiden , because he knew he wasn't in any danger...
... and if he did go outside to make the call.............it was because he couldn't stand to look at what he'd done inside ....
...or..........he had gotten some blood on the door of the durango earlier.......... and so was recreating that again to account for it....

...who knows....................we need a break in this case to keep us from going around in circles....

[Jenifred]

Just thinking. If they had internet access in their home, since it was reported that maybe Janet was IMing that evening, what kind of connection would they have had? And would it have required a land line? I'm in a far away place from the States, but we were required to have a land line for DSL. Is that the same in the States?

[JerseyGirl]

Just thinking. If they had internet access in their home, since it was reported that maybe Janet was IMing that evening, what kind of connection would they have had? And would it have required a land line? I'm in a far away place from the States, but we were required to have a land line for DSL. Is that the same in the States?No, I have a cable connection ... no land line needed. Of course, in some places it is much more expensive than dial-up so someone that is in dire financial straits might be better with dial-up.

I think that the cell phone might just be a convenient excuse ... one that might have been planned out ahead of time just in case. If they didn't have a land line, I am positive that a responsible young mother like Janet would have kept her cell phone in the same location when she was home so that it could be found quickly and easily in an emergency.

[ewwwinteresting]

No, I have a cable connection ... no land line needed. Of course, in some places it is much more expensive than dial-up so someone that is in dire financial straits might be better with dial-up.

I think that the cell phone might just be a convenient excuse ... one that might have been planned out ahead of time just in case. If they didn't have a land line, I am positive that a responsible young mother like Janet would have kept her cell phone in the same location when she was home so that it could be found quickly and easily in an emergency.
I personally don't think limiting what you have/changing what you have because you are in "dire financial straits" ever entered Raven's mind!

[JerseyGirl]

I personally don't think limiting what you have/changing what you have because you are in "dire financial straits" ever entered Raven's mind!I agree. So I think it's entirely possible that they did NOT have a land line. But I can't see Janet not keeping the phone in the same location all of the time if that was their link to the outside world in an emergency. With a 6 month-old baby in the house, you need to know where the phone is, IMO, and I believe that Janet would have felt the same way.

[icare]

Thanks icare! What else can you tell us about the crime scene? Anything? Does your very close source (after talking to Raven) have a different possible scenerio of what happened that night...I'm trying to find something...anything that says it was somebody else!

Everything I know, you already know. From what I understand they did not have a land line and he said that he had to "run to the car to get the cell phone to cal 911"

Wish that I had more to tell you!

If I hear of anything new, I'll let you all know

[NCBanker]

I think you're onto something here... While we have no clue what he pawned, this seems like the most plausible conclusion. Excellent work!!!



2. Raven was selling stolen merchandise on ebay. Then he was caught and arrested. He had stolen merchandise hidden that LE didn't find (maybe in a storage facility, storage sheds out back, attic, garage, etc.) and knew he couldn't sell it on ebay without getting caught so he started pawning the items.

[bluegirl]

I personally don't think limiting what you have/changing what you have because you are in "dire financial straits" ever entered Raven's mind!

Obviously we don't know what was going on in Raven's mind. He has been clinical diagnoised with bipolar disorder. I know he would go through periods of time when he wouldn't take his medication. We need to search more into his health.

[Moxie]

Money.

We need to follow the money trail here. Debts, jobs held, jobs lost, possible prior embezzlements.

Money.

[snapple]

Money.

We need to follow the money trail here. Debts, jobs held, jobs lost, possible prior embezzlements.

Money.I think we've found an aspect of the money trail in the thread "Love or Money" started by NCBanker. Maybe this fund idea was an after thought to Raven, but IMO, benefitting finacially was the motive behind that article and it only adds to the idea that Raven would do ANYTHING for money. Money seems to be the only motivating factor in his life.

[ewwwinteresting]

I think we've found an aspect of the money trail in the thread "Love or Money" started by NCBanker. Maybe this fund idea was an after thought to Raven, but IMO, benefitting finacially was the motive behind that article and it only adds to the idea that Raven would do ANYTHING for money. Money seems to be the only motivating factor in his life.

Gee, where would you have come up with that idea? :) :)

[ewwwinteresting]

Obviously we don't know what was going on in Raven's mind. He has been clinical diagnoised with bipolar disorder. I know he would go through periods of time when he wouldn't take his medication. We need to search more into his health.
BG, is this confirmed? Do you know what medication he was taking or supposed to be taking?

[Jenifred]

Obviously we don't know what was going on in Raven's mind. He has been clinical diagnoised with bipolar disorder. I know he would go through periods of time when he wouldn't take his medication. We need to search more into his health.
I don't think that we know for sure if he was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder or not.

BTW bluegirl, what was the connection that you were talking about earlier with the media?

[dbmthur]

I'm new here so not sure if this has already been stated but I noticed when viewing their x-mas video that he said he collected knives? Maybe that is what was pawned? Some of the knives out of his collection...


Also has he shown any violence before this...I know that it was mentioned that he had a bad temper but has there been any incidence of spousal abuse prior to her murder that anyone knows about.

I'm sorry if this has already been answered...I haven't went through all the posts on the forum yet but those were 2 things that jumped out at me as I was reading....

[ewwwinteresting]

I'm new here so not sure if this has already been stated but I noticed when viewing their x-mas video that he said he collected knives? Maybe that is what was pawned? Some of the knives out of his collection...


Also has he shown any violence before this...I know that it was mentioned that he had a bad temper but has there been any incidence of spousal abuse prior to her murder that anyone knows about.

I'm sorry if this has already been answered...I haven't went through all the posts on the forum yet but those were 2 things that jumped out at me as I was reading....
Gee, why not :)

So far, there has been no confirmed physical spousal abuse.

[NCBanker]

I seriously doubt Janet would stick around for that. I'm sure she was athletically fit enough to also give him a run for his money if he ever approached her in that manner.

Gee, why not :)

So far, there has been no confirmed physical spousal abuse.

[golfmom]

I seriously doubt Janet would stick around for that. I'm sure she was athletically fit enough to also give him a run for his money if he ever approached her in that manner.

IDK, sure looks like she stuck around through some serious emotional abuse and her husband's inability to keep his private parts in his pants.

[NCBanker]

I'm so glad you're back! I've really missed your dry humor!

IDK, sure looks like she stuck around through some serious emotional abuse and her husband's inability to keep his private parts in his pants.

[NCBanker]

Well not that I've ever been unfaithful to my wife, but I'd like to think she'd stick around and try to work things out if I did. I certainly would if the roles were reversed.

However, if I EVER laid a hand on her, you can rest assured she'd be out the door with the kids and the dog faster than you can say "I'm in big trouble."

IDK, sure looks like she stuck around through some serious emotional abuse and her husband's inability to keep his private parts in his pants.

[Jenifred]

IDK, sure looks like she stuck around through some serious emotional abuse and her husband's inability to keep his private parts in his pants.
We Mormons believe that when we are sealed in the Temple, it is for time and all eternity (past the death us do part in most marriages). So, I'm sure that most would say that they would give a cheating spouse another chance. I know, even if I weren't Mormon, I'd give my husband a second chance (if it were an indiscression committed once not an ongoing relationship). But gosh darn it, if he tried doing it again, he'd say bye-bye to a lot of his paycheck and his kiddos too.

[golfmom]

We Mormons believe that when we are sealed in the Temple, it is for time and all eternity (past the death us do part in most marriages). So, I'm sure that most would say that they would give a cheating spouse another chance. I know, even if I weren't Mormon, I'd give my husband a second chance (if it were an indiscression committed once not an ongoing relationship). But gosh darn it, if he tried doing it again, he'd say bye-bye to a lot of his paycheck and his kiddos too.

I hate to say that Janet is a statistic in any shape or form; to me she was an individual who deserved more than just being labeled on someone's chart as a victim of domestic abuse. We all know that many women stay far too long in relationships hoping that their loved one will change ... whether they're being clubbed upside the head or torn down emotionally.

Mr. P. Ness had numerous affairs, and Janet chose to still put her husband first. She had permission from her church to leave Raven, and still she stayed. She had a loving and supportive family who would have done anything to help her start over. I find her dedication to her husband and son admirable, too bad it doesn't appear that it was reciprocal. Raven was a thief, cheat, liar, and I believe a murderer. He didn't deserve Janet and Janet deserved much better than Raven.

[Moxie]

[QUOTE=golfmom]I hate to say that Janet is a statistic in any shape or form; to me she was an individual who deserved more than just being labeled on someone's chart as a victim of domestic abuse. We all know that many women stay far too long in relationships hoping that their loved one will change ... whether they're being clubbed upside the head or torn down emotionally.

Mr. P. Ness had numerous affairs, and Janet chose to still put her husband first. She had permission from her church to leave Raven, and still she stayed. She had a loving and supportive family who would have done anything to help her start over. I find her dedication to her husband and son admirable, too bad it doesn't appear that it was reciprocal. Raven was a thief, cheat, liar, and I believe a murderer. He didn't deserve Janet and Janet deserved much better than Raven.

Golfmom,

We have missed you and your wise observations. I agree with you completely. He did not deserve Janet, and sadly, Janet deserved much more from her husband.

I wonder, if Raven even has a conscience, how he will feel to have to live the rest of his life knowing how awful he was to her. The sad thing is, I don't know if he would even care. I think the only person he truly cares about is himself. And Kaiden, since he seems to view Kaiden as an extension of himself.

[NCBanker]

I think the only person he truly cares about is himself. And Kaiden, since he seems to view Kaiden as an extension of himself.
AND a pretty good meal ticket!!! Everything's being done for Kaiden. I wouldn't be surprised if he was using Kaiden's social security number to obtain credit for new goodies.

[Jenifred]

AND a pretty good meal ticket!!! Everything's being done for Kaiden. I wouldn't be surprised if he was using Kaiden's social security number to obtain credit for new goodies.Maybe he's using Kaiden for a lot more things. GM, up for another google search?

Didn't find anything--but I will periodically check back.

[Moxie]

AND a pretty good meal ticket!!! Everything's being done for Kaiden. I wouldn't be surprised if he was using Kaiden's social security number to obtain credit for new goodies.
Is that even possible to do? I mean, can't Kaiden's SS# be matched to his date of birth?

[golfmom]

Is that even possible to do? I mean, can't Kaiden's SS# be matched to his date of birth?

I knew of some parents who used their children's social security number and credit when the kids were young teens. The kids were shocked as all get out when they all discovered that their credit to shot to hell and they weren't even 20 years old yet.

[golfmom]

SO, If there is a LIFE INSURANCE policy . . .

I'd set up my tent in the premeditated campground.

[ewwwinteresting]

SO, If there is a LIFE INSURANCE policy . . .

I'd set up my tent in the premeditated campground.
If we find the life insurance policy, you may have to make room for many tents in that campsite, GM.

[Moxie]

If we find the life insurance policy, you may have to make room for many tents in that campsite, GM.
I'm afraid that campsite would get very crowded. And it wouldn't be happily crowded.

What is missing in the human soul to decide to murder your spouse (or anyone for that matter) for money?

[JerseyGirl]

SO, If there is a LIFE INSURANCE policy . . .

I'd set up my tent in the premeditated campground.Welcome!

[ewwwinteresting]

There was blood in the Durango. From what I understand form a very close source, Raven says that after he found Janet, he had to go to the car to get the cell phone to call 911. That is why there is blood by the door and in the car.
Icare, I am interested about blood being found IN the Durango. Did you receive this information from a reliable source? According to other accounts, the Durango was locked so Raven went back into the house to find Janet's cell phone. It was my understanding that Raven never got into the Durango after finding Janet's body...did I get this wrong?

[Breehannah6]

If Raven had bipolar ,quite often the traits are in fact promiscuity hence the affairs. This may answer why janet forgave him and stayed with him. As the parent of a teenage boy with obbsessive compulsive disorder sometimes masking his bi-polar its a hell of a ride to endure! They have very high unrealistic goals that end up in really bad depression when they cant be attained ,the go nuts at the least little thing that goes wrong,scratch on their car, a particular item of clothing not being clean at the wish ect..........and then the maniac who has gone ballistic comes up and give you a hug tells you they love you ect...they appear to be able to charm the birds from the trees!! They do feel the compulsion at times to steal and have no idea why............they dont really need it it just adds to their dream of being special! I hadnt realised until I read this thread he was a sufferer but it explains a lot now I know this If you type in Bipolar+young people it will fill you in on it all!! They actually are charming to others but explode on the people they love the most,mothers,wives ect...
My son will put his car in to be repaired but wont have any money they still live the same great life even when they are broke ,and its a very difficult life for everyone who is close to them, If he is like my son he is treat like a lovable rogue who is forgiven over and over!! The reason is they are very likely to take their own lives when they get depressed ! So maybe he did have a manic attck and kill Janet up until now I have always thought he was innocent

[JerseyGirl]

Breehannah6, thanks so much for your first-hand observations! You must have amazing strength to endure such difficult times.

[ewwwinteresting]

So maybe he did have a manic attck and kill Janet up until now I have always thought he was innocent
Can you elaborate on this? I have been battering around this idea, even with all of the circumstancial evidence, but have not come up with another scenerio that sounds legitimate. Any help?

[Breehannah6]

Well they become really enraged at the drop of a hat! And they go Ballistic to say they lose the plot is an understatement!

I think Janet may have suffered spousal abuse in fact I am pretty sure she would have been verbally abused ,as well as mentally, Its all part of it! It would have to be hard for a young girl to endure being yelled and screamed at , and I have no doubt if he has bipolar thats the scenario , When they get confronted they have a fit!! and throw huge tantrums. Then they get over it and tell you what you want to hear ,back into the honeymoon phase until next time.

Maybe she thought he was out playing more than soccer, confronted him and he lost it big time! They believe they are superior and more intelligent than everyone around them ,if he did it he probably believes he is too smart to get caught and will deny,deny,deny!
He will be whining to all and sundrie at the moment about how bad it is for him,they are quite self centred creatures.
What more can I say than when I heard this I thought maybe...............
Do I think my own son would kill a girl ? No but his mum probably feels the same

[terminatrixator]

If Raven had bipolar ,quite often the traits are in fact promiscuity hence the affairs. This may answer why janet forgave him and stayed with him. As the parent of a teenage boy with obbsessive compulsive disorder sometimes masking his bi-polar its a hell of a ride to endure! They have very high unrealistic goals that end up in really bad depression when they cant be attained ,the go nuts at the least little thing that goes wrong,scratch on their car, a particular item of clothing not being clean at the wish ect..........and then the maniac who has gone ballistic comes up and give you a hug tells you they love you ect...they appear to be able to charm the birds from the trees!! They do feel the compulsion at times to steal and have no idea why............they dont really need it it just adds to their dream of being special! I hadnt realised until I read this thread he was a sufferer but it explains a lot now I know this If you type in Bipolar+young people it will fill you in on it all!! They actually are charming to others but explode on the people they love the most,mothers,wives ect...
My son will put his car in to be repaired but wont have any money they still live the same great life even when they are broke ,and its a very difficult life for everyone who is close to them, If he is like my son he is treat like a lovable rogue who is forgiven over and over!! The reason is they are very likely to take their own lives when they get depressed ! So maybe he did have a manic attck and kill Janet up until now I have always thought he was innocent One of my best friends is bi-polar, and she spends money like there is no tomorrow, doesn't pay her bills, 1/2 the time she's homeless and lives friend to friend. She works, makes great money usually, comes to live here during the depression state. She is probably the most charming, charismatic people I know. Every summer she becomes manic - doesn't sleep, eat, has to be busy, but to the detriment of her health, and her true friends. During the spring we usually talk about the summer and the upcoming mania state, and I promise I will let her know when I see signs, and I do. I try to get her regulated on her medicine. She starts sneaking around, drinking more and more coffe, then starts drinking, she will end up befriending others that are not good for her at all, and basically find ways to fight with those closest to her, because she is in this manic state, and by then I can't take it anymore. The things she does when she is in the manic state is mind-blowing. By that time, I have to ask her to leave, or she runs away (she's over 30.) My family can't take it. It happens often, to the point that I cannot handle being around her anymore because of the things she does, which brings crap down on my home and my family. She usually goes away for about a year, then tries to contact me, I let her back into my home, but that has ended. I can't allow my family to go through it anymore and had to give up. Makes me feel bad, but my family is more important.

Edited to add: She does talk about suicide during the depressive state, and her way is to drive HORRIBLY!

[Breehannah6]

Yes I agree they can really turn on the charm!lol They are hell to live with,thats when they havent took off because you have told them a home truth!lol They tell you everything you want to hear they have seen the light they are definetley gonna change now!!lol Then they go straight back hard at it again!!!

[terminatrixator]

Guess the Motive to the Murder is a little more evident now. :mad:

[Maybe So]

Perhaps Raven thought that a newly widowed and now single father would be a sympathetic figure and be sentenced more lightly (or even have the charges dropped) for the embezzlement?

Or, perhaps he just wanted to be free of the committment and financial responsibility that another baby on the way was going to cause? After all you have to buy clothes and toys for kids instead of yourself when you are a parent.....

[golfmom]

Perhaps Raven thought that a newly widowed and now single father would be a sympathetic figure and be sentenced more lightly (or even have the charges dropped) for the embezzlement?

Or, perhaps he just wanted to be free of the committment and financial responsibility that another baby on the way was going to cause? After all you have to buy clothes and toys for kids instead of yourself when you are a parent.....

One baby, CAT & NIP ... two babies, no time to live large and move on.