Joe Barnhill told to forget what he saw

[Camper]

Have not read the entire thread. As far as I can remember the only comment we have seen or heard is that Barnhill SAW someone who looked like JAR walking up to the house that afternoon no exact time given or even an approximate time, (as I recall, huh?).
I have always had a brain cramp that told me that the Ramseys (JBR,Burke and PR) were home and that John was at the airport. Not much was ever said that I recall about exactly what time JR came home from the airport, or if he drove directly to the White's in his own car, and the rest of the family were already at White's house.

Do I remember that Patsy arrived at the White's to help Priscilla do some pre party prepping, again no specific time was ever given for that as I remember. Nor do the proverbial WE even know if that part of hearsay/flotsam information is even correct either.

So, if the Ramsey investigators were hot on the trail and guestioning a neighbor so close and known to Ramseys (as just across a narrow neighborhood street) from the Ramsey house; and Barnhill information is nearly or exactly correct on 'who' Barnhill saw, or that he saw anyone going up to the Ramsey house at all;

Does this mean that BPD just took the Ramsey investigators word for what they found out?

Or does it mean the BPD never communicated with the Ramsey investigators? 'My guess is this one'.

Or does it mean that BPD NEVER talked to Barnhill?

Much nighttime oil was spent on Yahoo chat with MJenn and Moab in digging the scoop on JAR, by me, and I have the printouts of those chats to prove it.

Honesty is a very good policy, on who did what and when etc. Doppleganger sp? indeed.

Edited to add: New thought on the afternoon JAR look a like - What if Patsy did indeed go to Priscillas house early for party prepping, what if someone came to the house to babysit the children until John came home!

Hmmm, was it JAR or?

[Maxi]

I thought Barnhill supposedly gave the original info about having seen JAR to a reporter, not an investigator. Then I read another quote from Barnhill saying he had never told anyone that. It's all so confusing!

My impression is that the BPD were very lax about questioning the neighbors. Weren't they questioned first by reporters or Ramsey investigators? I never could understand that.

[TLynn]

Investigations do take time. Ramsey investigators and reporters were there the next day. By the time the BPD got to Barnhill, he changed his story.

However, ST wanted to follow-up JAR's alibi and spoke to Atlanta neighbors to corroborate - he could not speak to Melinda, JAR or (ex-wife, can't remember her name) because they had been lawyered up.

A passage in ST's book states (something like) JR's ex-wife and JAR were standing outside watching Steve walk up to the neighbor's knowing he couldn't say a word to them.

PMPT (?) I believe stated JAR's alibi still left time for the crime...

That afternoon, Patsy states (DOI) that children were coming and going that day. John was at the airport (hmmmm?).

Not sure about a babysitter. Don't remember Patsy saying she was at Priscilla's early to help out.

So, John was at the airport a day early to make sure everything was ready. The plane was scheduled for take-off the next morning - yet, when John asked Archuletta how long before the plane could be ready to leave for Atlanta - the answer was "two hours."

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Maxi
I thought Barnhill supposedly gave the original info about having seen JAR to a reporter, not an investigator. Then I read another quote from Barnhill saying he had never told anyone that. It's all so confusing!

My impression is that the BPD were very lax about questioning the neighbors. Weren't they questioned first by reporters or Ramsey investigators? I never could understand that.

The quote which has Barnhill mentioning John Andrew is not a direct quote from him. It did appear in the Daily Camera of December 28th, in an article titled "No suspects in slaying, Coroner reports Boulder girl was strangled." The author was Elliot Zaret. Perhaps he could be contacted to see what any notes he may have taken reveal about the circumstances under which he spoke to Barnhill.

Many people may have had keys to the house, including caterers, a house cleaner, gardeners and landscapers, said Joe Barnhill, who lives across the street and takes care of JonBenet's dog, Jacque. Barnhill, like other neighbors, didn't remember seeing anything suspicious at the Ramsey house Christmas Day - the day before JonBenet was murdered.

"I didn't see a lot of people over there Christmas Day," said Barnhill, who had hidden until Christmas Eve the bicycle JonBenet's father had bought his daughter. "I didn't see JonBenet with her bike, but I did see (her 10-year-old brother) Burke ride his bike down the lawn there."

Barnhill also said he saw John Ramsey's son from a previous marriage, a student at CU, come to the house.

[Maxi]

I wish I had copied the Irish Times article in which Barnhill denies ever having said he saw JAR that day. It's also the article in which he describes the Ramseys as treating JBR "as if she were Jesus Christ". I thought that was a really odd way to put it. Unfortunately, the Irish Times online archive doesn't go back that far.

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Maxi
I wish I had copied the Irish Times article in which Barnhill denies ever having said he saw JAR that day. It's also the article in which he describes the Ramseys as treating JBR "as if she were Jesus Christ". I thought that was a really odd way to put it. Unfortunately, the Irish Times online archive doesn't go back that far.

I have that very article, July 2, 1997. Should I reprint it here?

I see what you mean about the Jesus quote. As printed:

"It would be heartbreaking if that family was involved. They worshipped her almost as if she were Jesus Christ. The parents are good Christian people. They're members down at St John's Episcopalian Church," Mr Barnhill said, before he excused himself and went back to his mowing.

Edited to add:

But Barnhill makes no mention in the article of not having seen John Andrew that day. I do have a memory of seeing such a thing said, so I shall research further.

[Nehemiah]

Camper, what happened to MJenn?

I thought y'all presented a very interesting and persuasive case on behalf of JAR. Got me off the fence for awhile.

[Camper]

Donut really know, except perhaps like myself she just became totally frustrated with digging up stuff that was significant, and not having avenues to pursue for real justice for JonBenet.

Mary Keenan appears to be happy enough to turn her other cheek and let things slide down the slippery slope into oblivion for JonBenet.

[Thorkim]

It does appear that way Camper. But I'd like to think she has an ace up her sleeve, but sadly, after all this time, I don't think so. This case needs to go away according to Boulder.

[Imon128]

I still have a faint glimmer of hope that Keenan will pull that ace out, too. The glimmer grows dimmer and dimmer. Sigh.

[Maxi]

why_nut, I would love to have a copy of that article. I don't know if others here are as interested in it as I am, tho. Could you email me a copy? If the other posters clamor to see it, too, we can post it. I don't think the Irish Times is going to come after us for re-publishing an old article.

Thanks so much.

[Camper]

Maxi, put me on your list of clamorers. I do continue to think that Barnhill was a very important key in this case, and appears to have been discounted and dismissed as a dumb old man, far from it, imop.

As far as the Ramsey pilot, he should have been chomping at the bit and ready for his early morning flight, not as was the case 'not reachable' and 'plane not ready'.

Somewhere I have references to JR's plane and how souped up he had made it. This information is found in DOI, if someone can give a page reference to the souped up braggadocio by John.

Little bells are now going off in my head about JAR's supposed request of the sometime police drug informant in Waterford MI, to have a planned boat accident with JonBenet.

The response by Ramsey attorneys to this allegation, was that JAR was not in MI in the months mentioned for the $10,000 dollar 'hit job'. Only a fool would have thought that JAR could jump clear of the oncoming accident boat. OR perhaps if not a bonified fool, someone on drugs or in an alcohol induced mentality.

If the informant found drug dealers, for the police department, I can see where he would have possibly met a 'JAR' type if not JAR in person, through his 'working' situation.

IF IF Barnhill were actually told to forget his memory, perhaps others were told the same or similar. Little credence was paid to the MI informant, a BPD female detective was told by MI PD that the informant was unreliable in her conversation by phone only.

Anything that I have ever read did not include information about a detective from BPD actually 'going' to MI to investigate. Am I wrong, anyone know of concrete information, about BPD's 'serious' investigation in this matter?

[Imon128]

Some time ago, I posted all the reasons that I feel JAR is behind JB's death. It's too long to repeat at this time, but suffice it to say, I still believe that. It all fits in, especially when you consider he might have had an accomplice, somebody like Brad Millard. I believe John and Patsy (and Lucinda) would cover to save JAR from the death penalty.

Now mind you, that doesn't mean that I don't vaccillate between him and John Sr. I GOTTA leave that door open...LOL :D

[why_nutt]

Poor Little Miss Colorado

Joe Carroll reports from Boulder, Colorado on a murder investigation so bungled that the killer of JonBenet Ramsey, a six-year-old beauty Queen, may now never be caught

THE dog spotted me as I walked around the garden of the empty mock-Tudor villa in the Boulder City suburb where the six-year-old beauty pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey was found strangled or beaten to death last December 26th.

The French poodle ran yelping across the quiet street, while its owner, an elderly man mowing his lawn, stared at the prowler. It is this kind of inquisitiveness which has roused the people of Boulder to denounce "media vultures". I waited for the tirade.

But instead Joe Barnhill walked over, picked up the dog and said "hello". After I introduced myself he said, "This is Jacques - JonBenet's dog".

I had just been looking at the little girl's swing and yellow slide beside the patio of the $ 1 million mansion, and now I was petting the dog she used to play with. But she was lying in a grave in far-off Atlanta, Georgia, where she had been born. And after six months of police investigations and the frenzied attention of the world's media, her murderer is still at large.

Mr Barnhill, a US Navy veteran, last saw JonBenet, a winner of the Little Miss Colorado child beauty pageant, alive at her Christmas party three days before her murder. "She was just playing around having fun. She had lots of classmates at the party and they and the grown-ups all got gifts. Patsy, her mother, was so well organised."

Still holding the poodle, Mr Barnhill, who is 76, talked about the shock of the brutal murder. "It's such a nice, quiet neighbourhood. We can't believe anything like this could happen here.

Could he ever imagine that someone in the family could be responsible? "I would find it absolutely impossible to believe the family could be involved. And even if it turned out to be true I could hardly believe it.

"It would be heartbreaking if that family was involved. They worshipped her almost as if she were Jesus Christ. The parents are good Christian people. They're members down at St John's Episcopalian Church," Mr Barnhill said, before he excused himself and went back to his mowing.

The Ramseys will never again be neighbours of Joe Barnhill. The 15-room mansion near the beautiful Chatauqua Park overlooked by the Flatiron peaks is for sale. Patsy is living in their holiday home 1,000 miles away at Charlevoix on Lake Michigan.

Her father, John Ramsey, is continuing to run the S1 billion Access Graphics computer company on Boulder's fashionable Pearl Street, but he will commute from Atlanta, where the Ramseys came from five years ago and where the new family home will be.

But will the Ramseys ever enjoy their new home? The District Attorney in Boulder, Alex Hunter, publicly identified the Ramseys last April as the "obvious" focus of the murder investigation.

The sleazier tabloids have openly accused the Ramseys of involvement in their daughter's murder, but without any hard evidence beyond the undoubted difficulty of explaining how an Outsider could have broken into the Ramsey home, beaten and Strangled JonBenet, taken her body to the cellar and written a two-and-a-half-page ransom note, and then disappeared without anyone in the house seeing or hearing anything.

Patsy Ramsey has now given five different samples of her hand-writing to the police to see if she wrote the ransom note. John Ramsey has given three samples and has been cleared of writing the note, according to police sources.

It seems incredible that the Ramseys only agreed to be formally interviewed by the police four months after the murder, although they had submitted samples of blood and hair three days after the body was found.

The day after their separate interviews with the police on April 30th, the two Ramseys called a press conference to declare their innocence again. In an extensive CNN interview the day after JonBenet was buried on January 1st, Patsy Ramsey declared: "There is a killer on the loose". John Ramsey said that the idea that he or other members of his family could have committed the crime was "nauseating beyond belief".

YET, in such murders, family members are always seen as suspects until they can be definitely eliminated. The Boulder police spokeswoman, Leslie Aarhon, told The Irish Times that "with the exception of the older children (JonBenet's step-brother and stepsister), the police have not ruled anyone in or anyone out." The step-children, John Andrew and Melinda, have been ruled out as they were not in Boulder on the night of the murder.

The Ramseys quickly built up a formidable defence team which includes John Douglas, a former FBI behavioural expert who was the inspiration for the detective in the movie Silence Of The Lambs, and Patrick Korten, a former spokesman for the department of Justice who handled such incidents as the Achille Lauro hijacking in 1985.

In contrast, the Boulder police and prosecutors have been feuding internally to the stage where the police are said to be refusing to turn over the latest DNA evidence to the district Attorney. The police chief, Tom Koby, has had a vote of no confidence passed in him by his force. The head of the investigation, John Eller, is looking for a new post in Florida.

Two of the police officers involved in the early stages of the case have been removed from it. The local media, such as the Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News, have shown that the inexperienced Boulder police made such elementary blunders in the early stages that the murder may never be solved.

On the day after Christmas, Patsy Ramsey got up to make coffee around 5.30 a.m. and found a ransom note on a back staircase saying JonBenet had been kidnapped and demanding $ 118,000 in ransom or she would be beheaded. Mrs Ramsey made an emergency call to the police, but the first detective only arrived at 8.10 a.m., after friends and a clergyman had come to console the family.

While the police began investigating what they believed was a kidnapping, John Ramsey searched the house a second time with a friend in the afternoon. They found the body of JonBenet in a basement that had been used to hide the Christmas presents, eight hours after the note was found.

She had been gagged with duct tape and the garrotte used to strangle her was still around her neck. She also had severe head injuries.

He removed the tape and carried the body upstairs, where it was covered as it lay on the floor awaiting removal that evening by the coroner's staff.

The woman detective assigned to the case has since been accused by the media of "bonding" with the grieving family instead of treating them as possible suspects.

As criticism of the police's over-respectful treatment of the rich and influential family grew, other "facts" were leaked to the media which were seen as damaging for the Ramseys.

Thus, there were no signs of a break-in or the alarm system being set off; there were no footprints outside the house where there was a light fall of snow; some traces of semen were found on the girl's body; the windowless basement was a hidden room which an outsider would not have known about.

Now, six months later, these details are said by Newsweek - which originally reported them - to be "wrong". The melting of the snow would explain the absence of footprints; the Ramseys often did not bother to set the alarm; no semen was found on the body; the so-called hidden basement was a common storage room.

The results of DNA tests which could have linked the Ramseys to the killing now seem to be inconclusive.

THERE still remains the ransom note. The investigators said last January that it appeared to have been written on paper torn from a pad inside the house. Later they found what seemed to be a first draft, also inside the house.

Although the full text of the note has not been released by the police, the odd figure of $ 118,000 corresponds to the company bonus that John Ramsey received the previous year. This has prompted the theory that the murderer might be a disgruntled employee.

There is a bizarre reference to the kidnapping being carried out by "a small foreign faction" which respects Ramsey's business "but not the country it serves". The company which Ramsey founded has since been taken over by the huge Lockheed Martin aerospace and weapons systems corporation.

Former FBI kidnap specialists now in private consultancies have scoffed at the obviously "bogus" character of the note and say the police should have immediately seen through it and ordered a body search in the house before the friends and neighbours milling around destroyed possible incriminating evidence.


The trail has now grown cold, after six months. "All the public indicators point towards the conclusion that it won't be solved," Christopher Mueller, a University of Colorado law professor said last week. "The only conceivable answer for why we don't have an arrest is that they don't have a case, and if they don't have a case after the DNA has come in, then it doesn't look hopeful."

[Imon128]

Thanks, why_nutt for the article. Really brings up some memories. My heart goes out to the old Barnhills, who in some strange way, I think were used by Patsy and John.

Too bad Jacques wasn't at home that night. I think he'd have barked enough to at least draw neighbor's attention. More than that, I'm sorry JB isn't here to play with her beloved Jacques. Snif.

[Camper]

Thank you so much. I wonder if the sometime police informant is still living, Mary Keenan should look him up. See if he recognizes a picture of JAR.

JAR appears to have done a Houdini disappearance, both in DOI and in the after years.

Then we have the disgarding of the souped up plane to JR's pilot at a bargain price. Subtle friendly thing, or payoff, for a midnight flight to somewhere.

[SisterSocks]

I agree Camper

[Maxi]

Thanks, why_nutt. That's the article I was thinking of. What a weird thing to say, "worshipped her as if she were Jesus Christ".

I'll have to keep trying to remember where I read Barnhill's denial that he told anyone he saw JAR that day. I'm sure it was in print, and I don't think it was in one of the Colorado papers.

[TLynn]

Thanks, Why_Nut.

My other computer had the whole JAR theory outlined on it. Didn't download it - thought, I let go of the "old."

It is the semen on the blanket in the suitcase that, I think, is the smoking gun. If it is the same blanket fibers found on JonBenet, then the semen on the blanket can't be overlooked.

I know of no questioning by the BPD re: the semen, blanket, etc. Except that they all belonged to JAR (including the Dr. Suess book).

Go further to the "forgiveness" statement; Brad volunteering he had slept in JonBenet's bed; Burke saying "he has a secret," and other suspicious elements.

JAR was cleared as a negotiation tool so the Ramseys would consent to an "interview."

[Seeker]

Thor, I have a hard time believing anything that Rita has to say about anything. After making excuse after excuse as to why the book hasn't been published, even going so far as having Rose post (on numerous occassions) that it was at the publishers and on it's way to the printers, I just can't believe anything she or Rose writes anymore.

Wasn't it last year around this same time that Rose swore that the book was going to be out "the end of January, begining of February" and then we could all eat crow? Well she's the one who is eating crow. Her and Rita cooked this scheme up for some reason and have continued to drag it out for over, what is it now, a year or 2?

[Imon128]

JAR was having drinking problems at that time, too. JAR really fits whats called some profiles, as well.

JAR and Brad Millard spending the night together at JAR's AFTER having driven Brad's car to Brad's house, is a REAL head scratcher. WHY??? JAR was due to leave very early from Lucinda's and a young college guy, out late (probably they'd tipped some cool ones) NOT wanting to go in his own house and just crash and sleep late? WHY did he go home with JAR?

JAR is my main suspect. It all makes sense to me when I consider he premeditated it with Brad, or that he and Brad were having a sexual thing of some sort (porn pics for sale at Jay Elowsky's or something?) and it went wrong. The premeditated sounds more like it. The note makes sense to me when I put JAR as the suspect.

[Maxi]

My JAR theory allows him to be in Atlanta on the 26th. In my theory, he and another guy planned the kidnapping, and it went bad because the other guy was a little crazy.

Actually, my theory can go two ways. JAR could have actually intended to have his friend kidnap JBR to upset his father, or he could just have outlined the plan as a joke at some late night college bull session, and the friend took it a little too seriously. Thus, the forgiveness quote.

[Imon128]

The JAR theory that works best for me is that JAR and Brad were doing something of a sexual nature with JB. JB was about to tell on them, they knew it, and planned to kill her, put her in the suitcase, load it on the private plane, JAR would retrieve that suitcase, and their (Brad and JAR's) plan would continue in Charlevoix, where her body was to be discovered.

Of course, this would, according to JAR and Brad's plan, eliminate them from suspicion as they were GONE from Boulder to their homes in Atlanta. (this same thing when JAR was supposedly GONE from Charlevoix when the boating attempt was to go down)

Something went wrong with JAR and Brad's plan and John found them. John was ticked at JAR, but still didn't want to send JAR to the death penalty. So John and Patsy covered......

This is one idea I have as to what happened to JonBenet Ramsey. And as usual, it's.....JMO. :-)

[Britt]

You JAR theorists definitely have my attention.

I can see JAR as the abuser, but not necessarily the killer, only because IMO Patsy would not have been a willing participant in the cover-up, much less have written the note herself and continued lying for years to her own detriment, to cover for JAR.

However, possibly JAR was the abuser and got caught by Patsy, and JonBenét wound up dead shortly thereafter or later that night in a rage attack by or struggle with Patsy, or accidentally from a blow meant for JAR.

Perhaps the dictionary-incest thing had to do with finding out if half-brother/half-sister sex was considered "incest." That makes more sense to me than any other explanation for why someone might look up the word and mark the page.

The JAR theory explains a lot of the mystery and motivations in this case.

[Imon128]

Yes, Britt! I like that! Patsy was the one who caught JAR, swung and hit JB....that'd work, too. I have considered that as well. Good thinkin'!!!

I totally agree that JAR doing it, explains much that seems to not tie in. It does, when I consider JAR as the one responsible. We'll get this figured out yet, Britt...:)

[Imon128]

That would explain, possibly, the digital penetration. Patsy might have walked in just as the sexual aspect had begun???

[Camper]

JAR and Brad Millard spending the night together at JAR's AFTER having driven Brad's car to Brad's house, is a REAL head scratcher. WHY???
Imon, I believe it totally possible that Mr. Stein accompanied JAR back to Atlanta in the souped up JR plane, still drunk or ?, when they arrived in GA, JAR was in no condition to drive, so Brad met the plane and escorted him to the nearest bed to dry out.

Remember Mr. Stein was not present with all of the 'friends' the next morning to comfort them, and he only lived 6 blocks away from the Ramsey's. Plus Mrs. Stein answered the door when the police came on the 23rd 911 call, and talked through the door intercom to them making allowances for the 'OOPS' 911 call.

Would also be interesting to know if any money or gratuity passed hands to Brad. We know the pilot of JR's plane ended up with the plane at a reduced price.

Anyone remember a source for JonBenet crying the evening of the 23rd and saying she did not feel pretty? If some sort of an encounter with a drinking relative caused the 911 call, who made the call? Much to be thought of here with thinking outside of the lines, hmmm. Could JonBenets grandpa have made the call when or if he encountered such an activity accidentally? I would think he could very well have been totally upset upon stumbling upon such a scene. Grandpa being much older and no doubt wiser, and perhaps the most inclined person to make a 911 call.

I would like to know where Patsy was when the police came to the door, who was she with, what was she doing that she could not answer her own door, or John for that matter.

Could it be that Grandpa took off right after because he could not deal with the household circumstance at that time? Wonder how fond Grandpa Paugh was of JAR? JAR absence of mention in DOI, tells me a lot, in absentia.

[Imon128]

Camper, I think it's likely somebody made a mad flight back to Atlanta with the perps. Stine might have blabbed by now, though, dunno.

Also, it's possible that GPP was aware of what had been happening to JB...she might have told Grandpa, who told Patsy and/or John, thus making them suspicicous enough to go out looking for a missing JB and JAR in the night...

Oooo, this is getting exciting...sort of like writing a novel or something.

[sissi]

Goodness and I was "feelin' bad" thinking the bottom wipin' White was suspicious.
JAR never said he wanted his little sister dead,this was investigated early on and found a lie.
He was cleared! Not cleared to shut him up ,only to leave him open again as "some were" if necessary,but C L E A R E D. I'm certain they (BPD) got this much right.
Ya' know,there are people that think Westie took the fall for his son, because of feeling somehow neglectful and responsible,but no way would I believe Patsy would cover for JAR. I can understand the Westerfield thing a bit, still don't believe it,but can at least understand the concept. Patsy covering for her husband's child from a previous marriage,I just can't buy. Would any of you cover for this boy,if it were your family? I know I would NOT! In fact in our family my sis gave up millions because of "bad" step kids (in their 30's) ,IMO no love or money should keep one from turning in an evil person. Patsy wouldn't have waited for "judgement day" she would have pointed that finger right at him. JMO IMO

[Imon128]

Doesn't matter what we'd do. I think John and Patsy would cover to save JAR from the death penalty.

JAR and Melinda were 'cleared' in a deal. It's in Steve's book.

[Britt]

Originally posted by sissi
...no way would I believe Patsy would cover for JAR. ...Patsy covering for her husband's child from a previous marriage,I just can't buy.
Me neither, sissi. No way no how IMO, which is why IMO Patsy was involved in JB's death whether or not anyone else was.

The JAR connection as potential abuser and a resulting family tragedy in which Patsy was actively involved... this makes a lot of sense.

Camper, your speculation about a stealth nighttime plane trip is speaking to me... and what about those vanishing phone records anyhoo? The pilot got himself a plane, you say? Fascinating stuff.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Imon128
I like that! Patsy was the one who caught JAR, swung and hit JB.... Well then Patsy and JBR must have been 1000+ miles away from boulder if that really happened, because that's how far away JAR was.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by twilight
Didn't love him as a son...that's for sure. Check out the pre-murder Xmas letter. JAR barely gets a mention. Melinda gets pretty good coverage...Burke better, and JB best...although hers is all passive voice indicating that Patsy knew pageants would not be seen in a good light by all who received her Xmas wishes. Passive voice ducks responsibility. So, she's basically bragging about something she didn't do. Much like they are now...'my JB was wonderfully sexual for a 6 year old, and so self motivated!!!'

Why would she cover for JAR...same reason she'd cover for John...maintain family status. You slip a bit when one son kills his step-sister. But I doubt that is what happened. However, if there was prior abuse...that is something else again. Maybe he's good for that...or maybe they're afraid he's good for that.

LOL...not sure what you posted but tend to agree!!!HEEHEE:?... somehow it makes total "commen sense to me"...!!! so now what?:dontknow: :nono: :mad: ;) :D :o

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by sissi
Goodness and I was "feelin' bad" thinking the bottom wipin' White was suspicious.
JAR never said he wanted his little sister dead,this was investigated early on and found a lie.
He was cleared! Not cleared to shut him up ,only to leave him open again as "some were" if necessary,but C L E A R E D. I'm certain they (BPD) got this much right.
Ya' know,there are people that think Westie took the fall for his son, because of feeling somehow neglectful and responsible,but no way would I believe Patsy would cover for JAR. I can understand the Westerfield thing a bit, still don't believe it,but can at least understand the concept. Patsy covering for her husband's child from a previous marriage,I just can't buy. Would any of you cover for this boy,if it were your family? I know I would NOT! In fact in our family my sis gave up millions because of "bad" step kids (in their 30's) ,IMO no love or money should keep one from turning in an evil person. Patsy wouldn't have waited for "judgement day" she would have pointed that finger right at him. JMO IMO

?:Would any of you cover for this boy,if it were your family? NOT!!!

... IMHO in this state (midwest) we reep what we sow... we know what goes around "comes around double +sum!"... it just wouldn't happen here...!!!~~~~~~:mad: :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Camper]

The facts as Mary Keenan has 'em in her book of case truth is that by 'alibi' support, JAR was 1000 miles away.

We have two trips on Mondays by JonBenet to the school nurse just prior to Christmas, for reasons 'we' do not know, BUT does Mary Keenan know the why of those trips. Was a cat about to be let out of a bag by JonBenet - unintentionally out of innocence?

Patsy's Christmas letter was late in getting out, was she preoccupied with another matter? Was she upset with some found information about JAR, is that why he was not praised in the annual newsletter?

IF a member of the family found an unnacceptable situation the night of the 25, and took a swing with a handy golf club at the perpetrator in total anger, and it found JBR instead. I can see the family covering for
a. family incest
b. son tried in court for what, sexual abuse?
c. mother tried in court for accidentally killing her daughter.

A family with standing in the community with everything to lose would in my opinion keep their dirty linen to themselves. If all of the participants in helping cover, knew these facts they would most likely keep their mouths shut.

Then again if a drunken JAR did this, in many family circles the family would blame the demon drink on this whole mess. Plus add to this any resentment when sober of the worshipped NEW child.

One of the keys to untangling this mess, would be to show a picture line up to the 'sometime police informant' to determine just who it was that offered him $10,000 to maime or kill JBR. Does Mary Keenan ever wonder about that.

In the end with the a,b, and c I outline above, no one would get sent to prison for a lifetime.

JAR would have a tarnished reputation as a sexual incest abuser. What family would not cover for that? It would only be a substantial amount of taxpayers money to take all to task for this unseemly murder. In the end would PR and JR have renewed reputations, most likely. Would JAR, imop, no. A rotten place for parents to be placed, truth would have worked for me, but not for them, imop.

My opinion based on bits and pieces of news reports made during that time as reflected by media reports, and books that I have read.

Blended families can often have a snag or two emotionally.

[Imon128]

I realize there are some who think Patsy wouldn't lie for JAR, but I truly believe she would. Here's why.


1) I don't think she'd defy John, if John gave the mandate to cover for JAR

2) Patsy came into JAR's life when JAR was a little guy, and probably had some motherly attachment to him, that probably got sharply diminished if JAR was found to be molesting JB.

3) Patsy wouldn't want all that dirty laundry aired, thus detracting from the 'perfect' image she worked so hard to create.

4) Patsy swung at JAR and accidentally hit JB, causing lots of mental car wrecks in her head, allowing Patsy to defer to John to take care of the mess (in this case it goes sort of back to item one).

[Shylock]

I think the people who believe JAR had something to do with this crime are probably the same people who claim they heard the 911 tape played on the Geraldo show years ago.

[Imon128]

Hi, Shylock--I never heard the 911 tape on Geraldo, LOL.

I am basing, in part, the JAR did- it on MJenn's accounting of how it was possible for JAR to get back to Boulder that night.

[Camper]

Shylock, why do you think that a man who owned his own airplane service, would not have the plane ready and prepared to leave Boulder the morning of the pre planned trip to points east for Mr. Ramsey?

Or why do you think the pilot not around to answer a phone call, surely a man of such high technical abilities would be carrying a cell phone in his pocket? Or did he leave suddenly in the night on a flight where no one would be calling him and he would not need or just FORGOT in the haste to get outta Dodge?

Cool shot on the 911 call Shylock, it is rather an insult, I too have never heard it, have you?

Today is my birthday and am 71, was not born yesterday. Pieces of my theory puzzle fit quite nicely all on their own.

Mary Keenan NEEDS to know WHO the Waterford MI drug informant was discussing an accident with to injure or kill JonBenet, imop. If it wasn't JAR, then the DA and the BPD and Mr. Woody have a legitimate reason to continue looking for a bonified non family perp. JonBenet deserves that much doesn't she Shylock?

[Imon128]

Happy B-Day, Camper!!!

That informant in Charlevoix might have been dismissed too quickly. JAR's reply via an attorney is that JAR wasn't even there that weekend. HUH? Like that would mean that he hadn't wanted somebody to off JB? And with JAR someplace else, no less? IMO, this needs looked into, or maybe it has and just not been reported to the public.

[Camper]

Good thought.

Heck with a speedy plane like that he coulda been anywhere for a quick pick up of 'drugs er?' and back out before anyone missed him. If he was not in Charlevoix that weekend or day or whenever, where was he, was he near Dad's plane er, hmmm.

Mary Keenan should be curious about that. Wonder if she is a crime buff, or just a political figure? One would have to follow details carefully to be able to put together the scenario evolving here at WS over time. I donut think, (could be wrong) that she ever got into the details so carefully as the rest of us.

My records are stashed away from our move, on the capacity of JR's plane, believe in neighborhood of 250 mph, does anyone have the figs close by on the speed of da plane?

So if the plane would not be ready on the morning of the 26th for two hours, perhaps the pilot was two hours out and not even there. Just because phone records might have shown a call to the pilot, does not mean that he ever talked to the pilot personally (per my pilot forgot his cell phone in a hurry thought), or if he did it could have been on the pilots cell phone way up in the air two hours out.

OR if he was an hour out and had to refuel to go again making it 'then' two hours, works for me.

This is the only theory that really really works for me after 6 plus years of head bashing.

[Thorkim]

I didn't hear the 911 call either. And I watched Geraldo and all those shows religiously back in the days this case was active.

Happy birthday Camper.

Hiya Seeker. You could very well be right about Rita Johnson, but I suppose this could be true about the Ram's investigators.

Imon, I agree, after MJenn's & TLynn's hard work, the JAR theory became a possibility for me. Altho I am not completely convinced on one particular theory or perp (it is mindboggling trying to settle on one), he is not off my radar list. JMO

[Toth]

>I found something strange on Rose's forum
I'm not surprised. Might be surprised if you didn't find something strange there.

>I'm not completely convinced he couldn't be involved somehow.
His arms are too short for him to have been involved in the murder. He can't reach to Boulder from Atlanta.

>The forgiveness comment,
You mean the comment that is attributed to him, but that he did not in fact make? What sort of evidence is that?

>someone said he "disappeared" right after the murder,
No he flew to Boulder and then back to Atlanta for the funeral.

>the rope in his room,
Not an item normally there, left by the intruder.

> And, his room was called "John Andrew's room" before the
>murder, then afterward it was referred to as the "guestroom."
Well, it also housed Patsy's mother for an extended period of time, didn't it? So I guess the room has even a third name.
You see something suspicious in that?

[Imon128]

Quote: > And, his room was called "John Andrew's room" before the
>murder, then afterward it was referred to as the "guestroom."
Well, it also housed Patsy's mother for an extended period of time, didn't it? So I guess the room has even a third name.
You see something suspicious in that?

So....which is it? And explain any differences, okay?

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Toth
>the rope in his room,
Not an item normally there, left by the intruder. LOL! - Another prime example of the Ramseys playing stupid. File it in the "not our bowl and spoon" folder, right next to "that's not our flashlight" and santa bear.
The BPD knows exactly who the rope belongs to.

[Imon128]

Yeah, it's JAR's. And, it might have been part of the Christmas tree deco's put on that Christmas tree in JAR's room...Patsy being the chief deco of trees boss to LHP. JAR's Christmas tree was done in a western motiff. Did JAR balk and bitch to head matriarch, Patsy? To quote Smitty...'we just don't know'.

[Shylock]

Originally posted by Camper
Or did he leave suddenly in the night on a flight where no one would be calling him and he would not need or just FORGOT in the haste to get outta Dodge? In case you don't know, airports record the registration numbers of the airplanes that land and take-off there. Pilots also file flight plans.
The only way the Ramsey plane would have made some secret flight to Atlanta would be if it took off in darkness from, and landed in, a cornfield.
Not a real likely possibility....Boulder and Atlanta aren't exactly in the corn belt....LOL

[Camper]

Perhaps secret is not the word to have been used, perhaps covert might better apply here. Since flight plans can be done online, donut take long.

BPD was sleeping in on the 26th, I imagine there mighta been a skelton crew at the destination also.

Plus our pilot owned a flight business so a trip could have been designated so as to remove any question asking. Just where was Mr. Stein, the night of the 25th and the morning of the 26th was he on a business trip or?

Plus if our pilot took one of his planes that registration number would be logged not JR's plane. It would also explain JR's plane not being ready, if he was not quite back yet and had to refuel JR's plane or something unknown to me.

I do believe the airfield in GA may in fact have resembled a corn field on Christmas night and the wee hours of the 26, except for no corn stalks.

BPD was pretty much devoid of important people in the 5:30 am hour of the 26th. We were in the middle of an international holiday lest we forget.
People sleeping off egg nog etc.

Refueling in GA could have been done using a credit card on the gas pump, no attendant, huh, fo rthe return trip?

Shylock how many airfields are there in the GA area where they could have landed? I rest my case, the possibility exists, that it could have been done.

[Thorkim]

Toth, John Andrew did make the forgiveness comment, this came from the police. Sorry, it is true.

[Toth]

> And, his room was called "John Andrew's room" before the
>murder, then afterward it was referred to as the "guestroom."
Well, it also housed Patsy's mother for an extended period of time, didn't it? So I guess the room has even a third name.
You see something suspicious in that?

So....which is it? And explain any differences, okay? [/B]
Its whichever one you WANT it to be.
IF you want to say JAR room, go ahea.
IF you want to say JAR/Guesroom, as I do, go ahead.
If you want to say 'the room variously used by a number of different people on a number of different occasions and variously referred to as JAR's room, the Guest room, the spare room and Nedra's Room' you can say that too, though it sure would be a mouthfull.

The main thing to remember is that the rope appears alien. It is not an item that would normally be found in the room much less so prominently in the room. It is not at item of decoration for the room or a Christmas tree. The paper sack was rather dirty and would surely have come to the attention of a housekeeper if it had been there for a long time.

You can have all the suspicions you want about JAR, but I assure you,,, his arms are just a mite too short to reach all the way from Atlanta, GA to Boulder, CO. So no matter how much you desperately want him to be guilty, there is just no way it could have happened.

[Ivy]

Yes, JAR said that the person who killed JonBenet should be forgiven. That's just one more reason why I think Burke did it.

According to a story published in the October 1997 issue of Vanity Fair, John Andrew Ramsey was asked in a videotaped police interview what punishment he thought JonBenet's killer deserved.

"Forgiveness," was his answer, according to that article. Police then detailed for him the barbarity of the crime against JonBenet, and posed the question a second time. Again, he said, "Forgiveness."

Source (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0930test.shtml)

[Imon128]

It WAS JAR's room. It later got called the 'guest room'.

[Thorkim]

Exactly Imon. That is how I remember it being put, about the room.

Thanks for that, Ivy. This quote from JAR was in the police reports, from what I understand. And by the way, Burke is not off my list either. I still think a male Ramsey did this crime.

[Imon128]

Most assuredly, Thorkim, I think it was a male Ramsey as well.

[Toth]

[b]According to a story published in the October 1997 issue of Vanity Fair, John Andrew Ramsey was asked in a videotaped police interview what punishment he thought JonBenet's killer deserved.
"Forgiveness," was his answer, according to that article. Yes, according to the article, but not according to JAR.

[Imon128]

Do you KNOW JAR? It's in Steve's book, too, Toth. It's not up for debate. That is, unless you can prove to us JAR didn't say that per his lips?? Most anxious if you have that kind of "in".

[Seeker]

And here I thought Nedra stayed in the same room with JonBenet! I could swear I read that somewhere, something Nedra herself said.

[Toth]

I still think a male Ramsey did this crime. But which male Ramsey?
The one with the arms that are too short to reach from Atlanta to Boulder?
Or
The one who not only would have no reason to kill his own daughter but whose dna does not match the dna found in the panties and under the fingernails?
Or
Are you one of those 'barking mad' ones that Tracey referred to?

[Imon128]

I think the male Ramsey was John Andrew....and I admit, I sway back from him to John Sr., but my money's on JAR at this point.

[Thorkim]

I don't know Toth, if I knew which male Ramsey committed this crime, I'd be a heroine, now wouldn't I? This is just my opinion on following this case for 7 long years now (a long OJ ride thru injustice). I think any of the three Ramseys in the house that night could be good for this, plus I cannot rule out JAR. IMO, I don't see a mysterious pedophile/kidnapper entering the house that night. You aren't gonna change my mind on this. And I don't give Bucky Tracey much credence, I don't give a crap who he says are barking.

Yes, Seeker, I seem to remember a certain NE interview that involved shamrock cookies in which Patsy admitted that during her cancer bout that Nedra slept in that room with JonBenet so John couldn't have sexually molested her, could he?

[Imon128]

Yes, I recall Patsy telling an interviewer that she considered that John might have molested JB (paraphrased) but that Nedra slept in that room. WHY did Patsy think of THAT situation? I suppose she might have connected it to her cancer bout, (no sex?) but she surely didn't say that.

[Imon128]

If I recall correctly, that's the same interview that Patsy said she'd have knocked John's block (LOL, how appropo!) off if she thought he'd have molested JB. I'll NEVER forget the look she gave John as she said it. Phew!

[Seeker]

I thought in the NE interview that Patsy said Nedra asked her if she ever thought JR might have abused JB...or something along those lines.

[Thorkim]

OK, I found the quote. This is from the National Enquirer, April 3, 2001 (not the police files):

During the Enquirer interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects thel notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night.

[Imon128]

Thanks, Thorkim. I believe I saw it on TV, too, and I believe it was on that interview where the R's were building a home, and Patsy was standing by the basement stairs. We have it confirmed, now, thanks...that means I don't have to dig through my video tapes, LOL.

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Imon128
Thanks, Thorkim. I believe I saw it on TV, too, and I believe it was on that interview where the R's were building a home, and Patsy was standing by the basement stairs. We have it confirmed, now, thanks...that means I don't have to dig through my video tapes, LOL.

Iagree but am doubtful it's TRUE(sad?)...IMHO it's not something you address (in Patsy/John's world) as in regard to sexual actions...Patsy/Nedra's past goes further indepth IMHO...???(when Patsy was a child; Nedra the 'dominator/go go go!!!'...etc.!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Camper]

Hmmm, many times the parents of a daughter (PR) do not give their whole hearted blessings to their little girl marrying a man with luggage.

Was Mr. Paugh a go getter as well, as far as perhaps being the one who made the 911 call on the 23rd? Then having his action aborted, hence, no Ramsey answering the police at the door, because they were all busy with the in house perps. Explaining incest, saying little girls were not pretty who did such things (report of JBR sitting and crying about not feeling pretty at the party on the 23rd).

In my minds eye, I can picture this happening. It does not make me correct, but anyone of an older age can see this picture too, imop. Mr. Paugh was indeed a member of the older generation at that time. Since it was reported that PR asked LHP about marital relations/obligations/whatever, could PR have thought it would make JBR 'not pretty' to participate or be involved in such an activity.

A real sadness involved with an alcohol abuser in the family, particularly when they are youthful. The Ramsey family has suffered more through all of these 7 years, it has indeed been a life sentence for them, if my and many of our theories expressed on this thread are correct.

Are they guilty of hiding the family secrets or
is there a real perpetrator? Mary Keenan should check out the real and viable lead, the drug informant in MI. IF the Ramsey investigators dropped the ball on this, by merely dismissing it as 'JAR' was not in MI as pronounced by the informant, then great injustice has been done to JonBenet. God rest her little soul.

As I have posted many times before, WHY would Ramseys not be curious about who was impersonating their son in MI? Especially when their little girls ends up dead.

[sissi]

I believe Fleet White claimed to make that call in error while dialing out to check on his "ill mother".
Some one could have noted response time,however,that would only be the case if they were at the party,and this was on their mind.
Poor Fleet,he really fell into a "pile" of coicidences,dialing 911,having to do the same a few weeks before when his daughter was hiding from him,touching the door,the tape,no wonder he feels the need to continually put his "stuff" out and proclaim his innocence. Heck he even appeared to be suffering from a manic episode the week of the murder.
IMO JMO