NJ-3 boys (ages 5, 6, and 11), disappear while playing outside - Camden, New Jersey

[ewwwinteresting]

http://www.nj.com/images/newsflash/masthead_small.gifNewsFlash Home (http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf) | More Jersey News (http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?storylist=jersey)

Sorrow, anger as city grieves for three boys dead in a car trunk

6/26/2005, 8:26 p.m. ET By CHRIS NEWMARKER
The Associated Press CAMDEN, N.J. (AP) — As authorities began investigating why police failed to search a car trunk where three missing boys were found dead, the father of one of the children said Sunday he could not understand how they died so close to home.

"That was the first place to look," Cruz said. "You can look through the windows and check inside. That is simple. Maybe they should have looked in the trunk."
If it is so simple and the first place to look Ms. Cruz, why didn't YOU look there when they first were missing at 5:00? Like I said, it's all about money!

[MlazyV]

IMO the cancelled press conference indicates official charges of negligence against the parents are drawn up and ready to be signed if they attempt to sue law enforcement. The original hint was only one family wanted to sue but this 'conference' pertained to two families.


The parents have every right to sue but the trade off is they open themselves to the opportunity of being charged with negligence and their remaining children may have to live with relatives or in foster care during the course of the investigation and trial.

[JerseyGirl]

Just pointing out- one news report said that Dad opened the trunk due to smelling an odor, now he is saying he went to get jumper cables.Originally it was being said that when the friend (?) wanted to look for jumper cables, it suddenly hit the dad that the boys might be in the trunk, and that's why he started running. Then we heard it was a smell. The only thing I can think is that maybe as they got close to the trunk, they started to smell something.

[JerseyGirl]

I agree. I also still wonder how the boys got in there in the first place if the trunk was locked?There's a latch to pop it from in front of the driver's seat. Doesn't take much at all. LE believes that they somehow opened the trunk, and climbed in from the outside. Then the trunk fell shut on them. We've been told that Anibal was an explorer, and also that one of the kids played in cars before although LE won't say which child. I find it odd that they won't say which child. I'm not sure why it would matter to let us know.

[JerseyGirl]

It is all about money. The children aren't even buried yet and they already are pointing fingers, have a lawyer and threatening lawsuits. My sympathy for these families just went out the window.And the scumball lawyers probably sought out the families. In all fairness, only two families have been mentioned as being represented by attorneys. I don't know which family is not. My guess would be that Jesstin's (Manny's) family is not but that's a TOTAL guess.

[JerseyGirl]

maybe I am reading the article incorrectly, but I thought I read it as the news conference was cancelled because it was not approved by the family. And did it not quote the aunt of one of the boys as saying that the lawyers that called for the news conf. did not represent the family. I, too, hope that they do not try to sue. It was a tragic accident!The wording is weird now that you mention it. My guess is that she meant that the person that called the PC were not speaking for the family. But it clearly states that there are lawyers representing the family. But you could be right ... we'll have to keep our ears open for anything to confirm this one way or the other.

[JerseyGirl]

The parents have every right to sue but the trade off is they open themselves to the opportunity of being charged with negligence and their remaining children may have to live with relatives or in foster care during the course of the investigation and trial.I wonder if they're looking into the possibility of neglect regardless. Especially with the new statement found that was made by Anibal's father, stating that he's called DFYS several times over the past year. Was he truly concerned about they boy's well-being? Was it a bitter dispute between him and the mom? I think that every stone is about to be turned over.

[JerseyGirl]

North Jersey Media Group providing local news, sports & classifieds for Northern New Jersey! (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk1JmZnYmVs N2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NzEzNDY0JnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRX l5Mg==)

Cruz said police never asked him or anyone else in the family about the trunk, even though the children were known to have played in and around the car. The family had assumed police looked in the trunk when they started the massive search for the boys after they were reported missing Wednesday evening.

************************************************** *********

If the family knew that one of the children liked to play in the car, why didn't THEY check the trunk? Maybe the police assumed that the family had checked the trunk - would that answer be as acceptable as the family assuming that the police had. If these people knew their children well enough to know that they played in cars but didn't think to check the trunk, then how can they expect the police to think of it without any first-hand knowledge of the boys? And if the family didn't look after THREE HOURS, why would they assume the police had when they arrived? So are they saying that the trunk crossed their minds but that they didn't bother to check because they thought the police had? I don't buy it.

[JerseyGirl]

North Jersey Media Group providing local news, sports & classifieds for Northern New Jersey! (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk1JmZnYmVs N2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NzEzNDY0JnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRX l5Mg==)

... Cruz also blamed the state Division of Youth and Family Services, or DFYS, for his son's death. Cruz said he had called the agency a number of times in the past year to tell them his son, who was mentally disabled, was wandering away from the home into the neighborhood.
However, he said DFYS did nothing to solve the problem.

"If he had been put in a safe place, maybe this would have never happened," Cruz said.

Andy Williams, a spokesman for the state Human Services Department, declined to comment Sunday on whether Cruz made phone calls to the agency, citing confidentiality. Williams said the department investigates after every call of potential abuse, neglect or child endangerment.

************************************************** *********
So expect to see a lawsuit against the City of Camden, (as if they can afford it), and the Division of Youth and Family Services as well. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Camden Father Blames DYFS For Child's Death (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4654376/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

... Cruz, who has lived in Philadelphia for the past year since separating from his wife Alba, also blamed the state Division of Youth and Family Services for his son's death...

A joint funeral service for the boys was tentatively scheduled for Wednesday in Camden. Both Agosto and Pagan will be buried Thursday in Camden, while Cruz will be buried in Puerto Rico at a later date.

Meanwhile, community members continued to deal with their grief. A steady stream of visitors stood under the hot sun outside the Cruz home Sunday, placing stuffed animals, balloons, candles and notes in front of a chain-link fence in the yard where the boys were last seen playing together.

For some, the grief over their loss was turning into frustration.

As he paid his respects area resident Luis Rodriguez, 55, asked why the police never thought to look in the car's trunk.

"Why wouldn't they think to look in a trunk? (Crime victims) get stuck in trunks all the time," he said.

At one point in the early afternoon, the scene at the Cruz home turned chaotic as news crews set up cameras on the sidewalk for an expected news conference that never occurred.

It was later learned that several media outlets had received a release from an unidentified man claiming to represent members of the Cruz and Pagan families, as well as their lawyers. However, family members said they did not know the man or why he made the claims.

************************************************** *********
It sounds as if they DO have lawyers but that some man was claiming to be representing all of them. Sort of like an agent, maybe?

[MlazyV]

I wonder if they're looking into the possibility of neglect regardless.
I would be surprised if they file charges unless a suit is brought. I've seen several incidents of children killed in motor vehicle accidents were they were not strapped into car seats but they rarely charge the parents. The feeling is there is no punishment possible that equates to to the pain of losing a child.

It seems the police would lose respect if they filed without being sued.

[JerseyGirl]

New York Daily News - Home - Grief in Camden (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/322970p-276061c.html)

The father who found his son and two other boys dead in the trunk of a car remains haunted by the horrible sight, a friend said yesterday.

"He said, 'I know my son's in heaven, but the one who needs help here is me,'" said Nery Vasquez, 56, who visited with distraught dad David Agosto yesterday. "He's in pain."

Agosto has collapsed twice, has been hospitalized and was on medication yesterday following Friday's grisly discovery of his son Daniel and two other boys.

"I think to see friends surrounding him, friends and neighbors, his [other] son was there, hugging him," Vasquez said. "I said, 'Do you need a pastor?' and he said, 'Yes, please, please.'"

... The family has been humbled by the community's support but has felt intruded upon by lawyers seeking to represent it in a possible civil suit against the city, according to friends who have been with the family.

Police searching for the boys looked in the car but never looked in the trunk.

"They're being pressured, instead of given a chance to grieve," said Sister Helen Cole, a nun who is a family friend. "It's profoundly sad what has happened to this family..."

************************************************** ********
So it seems as if the 6 year-old's family is the one that is currently not represented. He is the one whose father found the boys, and is the one whose mother was napping when they disappeared, (if I'm not mistaken).

[JerseyGirl]

L.A. Daily News - News (http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~20954~2940406,00.html)

... In addition to the formal review, City Council President Angel Fuentes said the council will hold a hearing on the matter Thursday.

[emma l]

This terrible story was just in my local (to central London only) newspaper on the way to work this morning. It is so horrific I guess it will reach the whole world. Bless them.

[JerseyGirl]

Breaking News - CourierPostOnline (http://www.courierpostonline.com/1119889669.html)

The city police chief and the Camden County prosecutor have been asked to appear at 5 p.m. Thursday in a closed session of the city council to tell what they know about the tragic deaths of three children found dead in a car trunk Friday night in the Cramer Hill section...

How to help:103-FM is collecting money for the familes of the three boys' families on Broadway and Martin Luther King Boulevard.

Also, a prayer service will be held at 7 tonight at Von Nieda Park on 28th Street and River Avenue in the Cramer Hill section of Camden.

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Source: Key Clue Apparently Missed In Camden Search (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4655166/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

NBC10.com FeedRoom (http://nbc10.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=34153) (Video story)

NBC 10 News has learned two new facts about the three Camden boys' suffocation deaths that raise even more questions about the case.

First, sources close to the investigation tell NBC 10 that a crucial clue may have been missed when police search a car Wednesday night...

"I was told that maybe two (of the boys) were without a shirt, " said (Iraida) Agosto.

That fact is crucial, because sources tell NBC 10 that the shirts and shoes of two of the boys were found in the front seat of the abandoned Toyota, reportedly in plain sight.

A description of the missing boys' clothing had been included in flyers distributed about the children circulated in the press after their disappearance.

And second, although the medical examiner has not listed a time of death, the Agosto family has learned the boys may have still be struggling for air and a way out of the trunk, as much as 16 hours before they were discovered lifeless.

But David Agosto, (the father that found the boys), has been released from the hospital after collapsing twice. And he now wants to release police of blame.

"(Police) did what they had to do," said David Agosto. "They were there with us. They helped us. Everybody helped us. Nobody's here to blame, they're gone."

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Prayer/Memorial Service Information (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4654459/detail.html)

COMMUNITY PRAYER SERVICE

A bilingual, multi-denominational prayer service will be held on Monday, June 27, 2005, at 7:00 p.m. at the Von Nieda Park Soccer Field, 28th St. and River Rd., Camden.

FUNERAL SERVICES

A joint funeral service will be held Wednesday, June 29, 2005 at Tabernacle of Faith Church of God in Christ, 115 N. 5th St. (near Cooper St.) Visitation will be from 5 to 8 p.m., followed by the service.

BURIAL SERVICES

Burial Services for Jesstin Pagan and Daniel Agosto are tentatively scheduled for 10 a.m. Thursday at the Harleigh Cemetery 1640 Haddon Avenue, Camden.

Anibal Cruz's body will be sent to Puerto Rico for burial there at a later date.

[nicatene1]

I live very close to Camden (as do many other people who post here it seems). I would like to say first that I believe this was just a tragic accident and nothing more.

I noticed that on this site as well as the newer updates on the news the video where the father has opened the trunk does not actually show him opening the trunk. The video the news stations were showing the first day actually showed the father open the trunk. He opened the trunk and just as quickly slammed it shut again. I see that he was visually upset (as expected), but did not seem surprised to me. I believe that at this point he realized the children were there. I have heard three different versions of how the family came about finally searching the trunk. 1st-a foul smelling odor led them to the trunk. 2nd-a family member was looking for jumper cables and 3rd- a minor twist on the jumper cable story was that the family member had actually opened the trunk and saw the boys and told the father that ran to reopen the trunk.
I know that as disturbing and heartbreaking as the recent video of the father's reaction is, the original video is much more heartbreaking. Perhaps only in comparison is the other heartbreaking (if not slightly puzzling) video I saw where a female investigator placed her hand on the hood of the trunk in order to stablilize herself while bending to look under the car. Imagine now knowing that those three little boys were right under your hand.
I hope that the families or the public do not place too much blame on the police....the way I see it is that the boys were playing in a yard that was fenced in and the only other visible item in the yard was a car. I would like to believe that if it were my child I might check the one thing large enough to contain my child on property before searching blocks and blocks away. Especially now that this new info. has been released and posted on this site by Jerseygirl about the shoes and shirt. Did the family not see this?
I also notice that the time frame of the mother checking on the stove has been getting longer and longer as time goes by.

[Mygirlsadie]

I would be surprised if they file charges unless a suit is brought. I've seen several incidents of children killed in motor vehicle accidents were they were not strapped into car seats but they rarely charge the parents. The feeling is there is no punishment possible that equates to to the pain of losing a child.

It seems the police would lose respect if they filed without being sued.

A thought came to mind this morning that maybe the reason they waited so long to call LE after the boys went missing was due to the fact that the one mother already had DYFS called on her a few other times...? Just a thought

[PrayersForMaura]

NBC10.com - News - Source: Key Clue Apparently Missed In Camden Search (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4655166/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)
And second, although the medical examiner has not listed a time of death, the Agosto family has learned the boys may have still be struggling for air and a way out of the trunk, as much as 16 hours before they were discovered lifeless.

Oh my goodness, this part is really disturbing... they may have been alive for a longer time than previosuly thought?? :(
If only someone could've found them a little sooner, who knows what would've happened.
Those poor little boys and their families :(

[PrayersForMaura]

There's a latch to pop it from in front of the driver's seat. Doesn't take much at all. LE believes that they somehow opened the trunk, and climbed in from the outside. Then the trunk fell shut on them. We've been told that Anibal was an explorer, and also that one of the kids played in cars before although LE won't say which child. I find it odd that they won't say which child. I'm not sure why it would matter to let us know.

I also find it odd, but maybe they don't want anyone pointing fingers at the family of the boy who did play in the trunk, because people might naturally assume that if one particular boy played in cars before then it must be his fault that the other two are dead?
:(

[lostfaith]

I find it odd that they won't say which child. I'm not sure why it would matter to let us know.

My suspision is that it was the older child, the one with some problems. And, I suspect that they will not say this to protect the family. some might place blame on them. And I also suspect that if this is true and becomes known, then we will have all kinds of people saying he should never have been allowed to play with those younger children, which would be terrible, and make me angry! Because children like this cant play with children of their own age because those children make fun of them, and wont play with them. or if they do it is only to torment them somehow.

[Mygirlsadie]

My suspision is that it was the older child, the one with some problems. And, I suspect that they will not say this to protect the family. some might place blame on them. And I also suspect that if this is true and becomes known, then we will have all kinds of people saying he should never have been allowed to play with those younger children, which would be terrible, and make me angry! Because children like this cant play with children of their own age because those children make fun of them, and wont play with them. or if they do it is only to torment them somehow.
Lostfaith I understand what you are saying 100%. But,maybe (and please dont kill me for saying this) younger children shouldnt play with children like this because they are a danger to the younger ones? I'm not saying this is what happened in this case by any means. I hope that doesnt get taken in the wrong way I dont know what happened in Camden alls I know is it is a tragedy and so completely awful a parents worst nightmare right before our eyes.

[lostfaith]

Lostfaith I understand what you are saying 100%. But,maybe (and please dont kill me for saying this) younger children shouldnt play with children like this because they are a danger to the younger ones? I'm not saying this is what happened in this case by any means. I hope that doesnt get taken in the wrong way I dont know what happened in Camden alls I know is it is a tragedy and so completely awful a parents worst nightmare right before our eyes.

Who can these children play with then? I would think children of 5 and 6 would be great playmates, since at that age they should be supervised. Yes, I agree, a terrible tragedy.

[Beyond Belief]

Oh my goodness, this part is really disturbing... they may have been alive for a longer time than previosuly thought?? :(
If only someone could've found them a little sooner, who knows what would've happened.
Those poor little boys and their families :(


The tears are flowing, more tears, and more. But struggling for air might has affected their brain functions, leaving them vegetables instead of themselves. These reports get worse everyday. Maybe we were better off in the OLD days when we just accepted everything as God's will, not knowing the technical things.

[Linda7NJ]

Hi Everyone: I just started reading this thread, as I've been watching the Natalee Hollway case. I saw coverage of this tonight on Fox and was so surprised, since I get the Courier Post daily and didn't see anything about it this morning.

It's also surprising to see how many good folks here are from my neck of the woods. I live in Gloucester County, but have been here a little less than 7 yrs. The internet really is a small place after all. My DH used to work in Cherry Hill. I decided to surprise him one day and set out for his business. I somehow made a wrong turn and ended up right in front of Camden High School. Let me tell you, I was one scared girl. I frantically called him to come find me, but since I was lost, I couldn't tell him exactly where I was - LOL. Here I am, a blonde driving a Lexus, and I definitely stood out. I cried and shook for a long time. His boss later told me that had I turned 2 blocks in either direction, I would have been in the middle of a war zone. Needless to say, I never attempted to visit hubby at work again - whew!

I so hope to hear good news about these little lost boys. My heart aches for their families.
I am also stunned at how small the I also live in Gloucester County! Hello neighbors!

I'm very familiar with Camden, at age 24 I was actually stupid enough to do social work there! I had way more mouth than brains at the time and was almost killed over an incident with a kitten. As I pulled up to a clients house, I witnessed 3 "boys" pouring lighter fluid on a kitten and beating it with sticks. All 5'3" and 115 pounds of me ( way back then, I have since gained a few) hopped out of my car and snatched that kitten while threatening and cursing them out. One pulled a gun and shot at my car as I drove away!

The kitten is an very old happy cat and still with me:) That was my last day of employment for DYFS!

On the brighter side, I once locked my keys in the car and a very nice car thief just happened to be standing on the corner & got my car unlocked in about 30 seconds for the cost of two cigarettes! LOL

[speedlimitmama]

No, we are not in the business of grief counseling but we dam well can show some compassion for 3 sets of parents who have lost their children through an accident that could happen to any one of us.

Save your sympathy for the boys and give it to the parents. Those little guys are in heaven but the parents are in hell. The parents are the ones left to try and cope with the horrible loss of their children. It will be the parents who throughout the years will remember all that their children lost...not the boys.
The parents need prayers and lots of them...not accusations of negligence.

In the aftermath of his son's death this father is talking about blame and possibly suing the PD. Don't be so quick to judge this man who is consummed with pain. Given time he will probably drop the idea...when he can think clearly.

I think of the mother of the little five year old boy who is in such horrific pain that she wants to commit suicide. Should the public encourage her....help her along because she wasn't watching her child every second? Shall we send her the message that she was a horrible mother and it is all her fault and maybe she should just end her life as a form of punishment????

As far as that mentally challanged little boy goes....who says that he was so challanged that he needed to be watched every second?? Maybe he was a little slow but so what. It didn't sound to me that he wasn't capable of getting in there and playing with the little boys...didn't sound like he was a danger to himself or others.

And one last thing. It was said that one of the fathers didn't live with his son.
It sounded like it might have been his fault because he didn't live with his son and there was mention of lack of finances and poverty. We don't know what kind of a father this man was. We don't know that he didn't spend quality time with his son....payed support monthly, etc. Where do you get your ideas from? Do you know anything about these parents at all. Parents divorce and a lot of the time it is better for the children. If mom and dad don't get along it is the kids who get hurt the most.

We may not be in the grief counseling business here but neither are we in the
business of harshly judging people who have lost their little boys. We aren't the judge and jury of these people. We don't know them or anything about them...what they have or haven't got...how they live...if they read to their children at night, etc, etc. These parents need our support...not our condemnation.


:clap: Could not agree with you more. My God those parents are out the their minds with the pain and shock and the what ifs.

[JerseyGirl]

The tears are flowing, more tears, and more. But struggling for air might has affected their brain functions, leaving them vegetables instead of themselves. These reports get worse everyday. Maybe we were better off in the OLD days when we just accepted everything as God's will, not knowing the technical things.You might be right with that last statement. And I hope you're right about their brains possibly not functioning properly, at least sparing them the realization of what was happening. The most troubling aspect of this to me is the bag of cement. It must have spilled while they were moving around, and ended up getting on them and probably making it even tougher to breathe. :(

By the way, my husband was coincidentally speaking to the ME yesterday and while he could not mention details of the examinations, etc., one thing he did mention was the length of time before the families called LE. According to my husband, the ME was of the impression that due to the temp., the fact that there were 3 of them, etc. - he believes that even if the boys had been discovered the night they disappeared that they may have already been dead. I'm hoping that they were - I can't bear the thought of them struggling for a day and a half.

[Mygirlsadie]

if the boys had been discovered the night they disappeared that they may have already been dead. I'm hoping that they were - I can't bear the thought of them struggling for a day and a half.


I do believe in my heart that is the case. It just doesnt seem logical any other way. The bag of cement adding to that fact. They don't even want you to put baby powder on a baby with breathing/lung problems. Cement is a powder first right? I am sure the bag of cement got ripped apart during their struggle getting all over the boys making them look even that much more horrific when the father opened that trunk. I'm so sad that this had to happen to teach parents/caregivers etc. a lesson..I know now that if my boys arent anywhere to be found the first place i'm looking is the trunk and deep freezer. I doubt I would of looked in the trunk before that would never of crossed my mind. I also hate that (besides the spanish channel here) the media all but abandoned this is it because they are gone / found there is nothing else to talk about? Think about it Laci was found years ago and she is still a topic in the news. Which I think is great every person should be honored that way. I don't really know what I want. I guess just that these little guys arent forgotten so quick these boys suffered I am sure and I just think they deserve more.

[Beyond Belief]

:banghead: :banghead: I am also stunned at how small the I also live in Gloucester County! Hello neighbors!

I'm very familiar with Camden, at age 24 I was actually stupid enough to do social work there! I had way more mouth than brains at the time and was almost killed over an incident with a kitten. As I pulled up to a clients house, I witnessed 3 "boys" pouring lighter fluid on a kitten and beating it with sticks. All 5'3" and 115 pounds of me ( way back then, I have since gained a few) hopped out of my car and snatched that kitten while threatening and cursing them out. One pulled a gun and shot at my car as I drove away!

The kitten is an very old happy cat and still with me:) That was my last day of employment for DYFS!

On the brighter side, I once locked my keys in the car and a very nice car thief just happened to be standing on the corner & got my car unlocked in about 30 seconds for the cost of two cigarettes! LOL
OMG:banghead: :banghead:

[JerseyGirl]

I'm so sad that this had to happen to teach parents/caregivers etc. a lesson..I know now that if my boys arent anywhere to be found the first place i'm looking is the trunk and deep freezer. I doubt I would of looked in the trunk before that would never of crossed my mind.I've been thinking this EXACT same thing. We were lucky enough to learn this lesson beforehand; those parents were not. Very sad.

And please don't worry ... most of us here will never forget those sweet-faced little boys. They'll remain in my heart for sure.

[JerseyGirl]

And then you have people like this!!! And we think that people learn lessons!? :doh: :doh: :doh:

The Union Leader and New Hampshire Sunday News - 28-Jun-05 - Off-duty NH cop finds children in car trunk in Va. (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=56943)

A mother was charged with child abuse after allegedly putting her two 5-year-old children in the trunk of her car as punishment for misbehaving in a store, Fredericksburg police said Monday.

Police spokesman Jim Shelhorse said Wayne Ingersoll, an off-duty police officer from Sandown, N.H., was waiting for someone in a Wal-Mart parking lot Saturday when he heard children crying. The cries sounded like they were coming from the next car over, but Ingersoll saw only a woman in the car, Shelhorse said.

Another woman walked up and asked Ingersoll if he had seen two children being put in the trunk. Although he had not seen anything, he got out of his car and stopped the driver as she pulled away. Ingersoll ordered Tamatha Parker, 33, of Quantico to get the children out of the trunk and she complied, Shelhorse said...

Other cases involving children and car trunks have been in the news this month. In Maryland, a mother was charged with reckless endangerment and traffic violations for allegedly driving around with her children, 9 and 3, and an 8-year-old friend in the trunk.

In Camden, N.J., three boys missing for two days were found dead Friday in a car trunk...

[JerseyGirl]

APP.COM - Hundreds join in prayer, hymns at service for 3 Camden boys (http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050628/NEWS03/506280302/1007)

... Friends and strangers leaned forward to comfort him and to embrace (David Agosto).

"I don't know you, brother, but I am with you," Jose Santiago of Camden said in Spanish as he hugged a weeping Agosto. "You have an angel in heaven."

More than 200 people joined in prayers and hymns on a rainy evening at Von Nieda Park in Cramer Hill...

Police Chief Edwin J. Figueroa, wearing a white ribbon in memory of the boys, faced questions from reporters at the service about an ongoing review of the search. He offered no specifics, focusing instead on the tragedy's immediate impact.

"Today was a very sad day," he said. "It's going to be even sadder with the funerals..."

The service brought some relief to grieving families, said Vincent Ruffin, Jesstin's father.
"It feels good to see everybody come together like this," he said.

[JerseyGirl]

Chief blames `emotions . . . false leads' (http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m062805e.htm)

False tips from well-meaning people misled police investigators in the crucial early hours after three Camden boys, later found dead, were reported missing, Camden Police Chief Edwin Figueroa told the Courier-Post on Monday.

Police chased tips all over the city, and as far as Vineland and Carneys Point, racing against the clock to find Anibal Cruz, 11; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Jesstin Pagan, 5.

In heartachingly clear hindsight, Figueroa detailed the mistakes police made...

Figueroa said he could neither confirm nor deny that the boys had left their shirts, socks and shoes in the front seat of the car...

The Courier-Post received more than two dozen calls and e-mail messages on Monday from readers who wanted to know why the parents didn't check the trunk of the car...

Friends and neighbors of the grieving families said the focus properly belongs on the police...

During the early hours of the investigation, police did not know the boys played regularly in the car, Figueroa said. They did not know the front door of the car was unlocked, or that the trunk could be popped open by pulling a lever inside the car...

"Police officers are human," the chief said. "When you get a call and you have three children missing, and it's already been two and a half hours since they've been noticed to be missing, your emotions start to flare," the chief said...

"We talked to the parents. We were getting information . . . that (the boys) may be down by the (Delaware) river. They may be down River Road, and all that. I guess with that information in mind, I guess that everybody started to move into those areas as quickly as possible."

In their zeal to react aggressively, police covered thousands of square miles, Figueroa said, leading them tragically away from the one place the boys would be found.

[JerseyGirl]

New York City - New York City News (http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/ny-bc-nj--cartrunkdeaths-vi0627jun27,0,3471354.story?coll=nyc-regionhome-headlines)

... The vigil was the first formal event among several scheduled for this week. On Tuesday evening, a prayer service will be held. A viewing for the boys is planned for Wednesday, and burial will be held Thursday for the two younger ones.

Cruz's body will be flown to Puerto Rico for burial.

"Your kids are supposed to bury you, you're not supposed to bury your kids," said Adrian Figueroa, 59, a friend of Agosto's father. "It's the greatest pain any human could suffer."

[ewwwinteresting]

"Your kids are supposed to bury you, you're not supposed to bury your kids," said Adrian Figueroa, 59, a friend of Agosto's father. "It's the greatest pain any human could suffer."
This statement rings true too many times. Children and baby funerals are one of the hardest functions to attend!:(

[mysteriew]

As their parents searched the neighborhood, three boys trapped in the trunk of a nearby car were running out of oxygen, soon succumbing to an anesthesia-like feeling before lapsing into unconsciousness, according to forensic pathologists.

Experts said the youths probably did not feel much pain, and most likely had either died or suffered permanent brain damage by the time police joined the search.

The medical examiner who performed autopsies on Jesstin Pagan, 5; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11, ruled that they suffocated and that their deaths were accidental. But he has not yet said how long they may have survived in the car trunk that sat closed for two days while a massive search of the area took place.

But most doctors agreed that the boys probably passed out from asphyxiation - or lack of oxygen to the brain - within an hour or two of being locked in the trunk. Some say heat stroke may also have been a factor. Within a few minutes of passing out, they would have suffered permanent brain damage.

While their bodies were shutting down, the boys would not have felt it, said Dr. Franz R. Gosset, a pathologist at the Monroe Clinic Hospital in Monroe, Wis., and a former medical examiner.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/12000868.htm

[Mygirlsadie]

And then you have people like this!!! And we think that people learn lessons!? :doh: :doh: :doh:

The Union Leader and New Hampshire Sunday News - 28-Jun-05 - Off-duty NH cop finds children in car trunk in Va. (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=56943)

A mother was charged with child abuse after allegedly putting her two 5-year-old children in the trunk of her car as punishment for misbehaving in a store, Fredericksburg police said Monday.

Police spokesman Jim Shelhorse said Wayne Ingersoll, an off-duty police officer from Sandown, N.H., was waiting for someone in a Wal-Mart parking lot Saturday when he heard children crying. The cries sounded like they were coming from the next car over, but Ingersoll saw only a woman in the car, Shelhorse said.

Another woman walked up and asked Ingersoll if he had seen two children being put in the trunk. Although he had not seen anything, he got out of his car and stopped the driver as she pulled away. Ingersoll ordered Tamatha Parker, 33, of Quantico to get the children out of the trunk and she complied, Shelhorse said...

Other cases involving children and car trunks have been in the news this month. In Maryland, a mother was charged with reckless endangerment and traffic violations for allegedly driving around with her children, 9 and 3, and an 8-year-old friend in the trunk.

In Camden, N.J., three boys missing for two days were found dead Friday in a car trunk...
You have got to be kidding me?! I hope they charge her with attempted murder! :behindbar

[Mygirlsadie]

************************************************** ********
So it seems as if the 6 year-old's family is the one that is currently not represented. He is the one whose father found the boys, and is the one whose mother was napping when they disappeared, (if I'm not mistaken).

__________________
Be the change you wish to see in the world. - Mohandas K. Gandhi



I havent seen any pictures or anything where the mom and dad are together (Agosto's) I did see one with her and a family friend holding each other. I wonder if he is unable to be near her now because she was napping & maybe he feels if she wasnt at home asleep.............. you know what I mean? ..

[lostfaith]

************************************************** ********
So it seems as if the 6 year-old's family is the one that is currently not represented. He is the one whose father found the boys, and is the one whose mother was napping when they disappeared, (if I'm not mistaken).

__________________
Be the change you wish to see in the world. - Mohandas K. Gandhi



I havent seen any pictures or anything where the mom and dad are together (Agosto's) I did see one with her and a family friend holding each other. I wonder if he is unable to be near her now because she was napping & maybe he feels if she wasnt at home asleep.............. you know what I mean? ..

Ya, well , we still do not know why this mother was napping. Did she work 3rd shift possibly? It sounded to me like the neighbor was watching her child while she napped. Like they had it worked out that way. Where was Dad? If he was still at work, fine. But if he is like alot of men and dont want to be bothered watching their child.....or maybe if he got a better job or worked two jobs, so the mother did not have to work the late shift...well, you know what I mean! I am just making up scenerios in my mind, and that is wrong until we know for sure, lets just not make snap judgements.

[CaliKid]

This is all so sad. I can't imagine losing a child to so horrific a death. I hope that emotions of revenge and anger simmer down and the residents of Camden begin to help each other to heal.

[ewwwinteresting]

This is all so sad. I can't imagine losing a child to so horrific a death. I hope that emotions of revenge and anger simmer down and the residents of Camden begin to help each other to heal.
I totally agree. Stop the fingerpointing at PD, each other, or various departments. This is just a tragic accident. No one to blame. It could have happened to any of us with children. This is, however, a situation that, as other posters have already stated, we can learn from. I would bet that all trunks of vehicles will be searched when a child goes missing. This unfortunate incident may save a life of another.

[Mygirlsadie]

Ya, well , we still do not know why this mother was napping. Did she work 3rd shift possibly? It sounded to me like the neighbor was watching her child while she napped. Like they had it worked out that way. Where was Dad? If he was still at work, fine. But if he is like alot of men and dont want to be bothered watching their child.....or maybe if he got a better job or worked two jobs, so the mother did not have to work the late shift...well, you know what I mean! I am just making up scenerios in my mind, and that is wrong until we know for sure, lets just not make snap judgements.
Oh definately about the making snap judgements. Personally I am not blaming anyone for this it was a accident plain and simple. As for the mother napping and having the neighbor watch her son while she napped well it was said that she never even knew the neighbor until this happened. I also noticed today that the father of Anibal Cruz is suing Toyota and the PD for his sons death.

[JerseyGirl]

I also noticed today that the father of Anibal Cruz is suing Toyota and the PD for his sons death.He was also collecting money in traffic for funeral expenses, (along with a group of other people). I have no problem with neighbors and friends doing that but it seems a little tacky when someone directly involved does it. Maybe I'm being too judgemental but it seems like Mr. Cruz jumped on the blame & sue game a little too quickly. The Agosto family seems to still be mourning while Mr. Cruz is meeting with lawyers. I hope that Toyota doesn't have to give him a dime for the beat-up car that was sitting on his wife's lawn. I hope, (and seem to remember), that there is some sort of disclaimer in the manual about not relying on the hydraulic mechanism to keep the trunk up.

[JerseyGirl]

Breaking News - CourierPostOnline (http://www.courierpostonline.com/1120063681.html)

The Camden Police Department will close the following streets tonight and Thursday morning during funeral and burial services for three Camden boys who died in a car trunk last week...

Visitation for Daniel Agosto, Jesstin Pagan and Anibal Cruz is from 5 to 8 p.m. tonight at Tabernacle of Faith Church of God in Christ, 5th and Cooper streets. The funeral is at 8 p.m.

Daniel and Jesstin will be buried next to each other at 10 a.m. Thursday at Harleigh Cemetery in Camden. Anibal's body will be flown to Puerto Rico for burial there.

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Camden Boy's Father May Sue Police (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4664337/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

On the same day as a viewing is held for three Camden boys, a father may sue police and an automaker over their accidental suffocation deaths...

As this neighborhood prepares for the viewing, one of the members of Anibal Cruz's family has hired a lawyer to look into a possible negligence suit against Camden police and Toyota about Cruz's death.

On Tuesday, NBC 10 News also reported that an investigative panel has been formed by the Camden County prosecutor's office and police department to look into how three small boys suffocated in a car trunk.

Authorities said that the panel has already started to work. They are interviewing the officers who first responded to the scene and they are going over police reports, trying to find out why the trunk of the car where Cruz, 11, Daniel Agosto, 6, and Jesstin Pagan, 5, were found was never searched...

While Anibal Cruz's father has hired a lawyer to investigate the possible negligence by the police department and Toyota, another father told NBC 10 on Tuesday he didn’t blame police.

"They helped us. The city helped, everybody helped us. There's nobody here to blame," said David Agosto...

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Camden Boy's Father May Sue Police (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4664337/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

Funeral Fund
Angel's Children's Fund
c/o Bank of America Pathmark
2881 Mt. Ephraim Avenue
Camden, N.J. 08104

[JerseyGirl]

Family of dead boy hires attorney (http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m062905c.htm)

... Attorney Peter Villari said on Tuesday that the Camden Police Department and the carmaker will be targets of his investigation. He represents the Cruz family, whose son, Anibal "Juni" Cruz, 11, was among the three who died while trapped in the trunk. Cruz's mother, Elba, watched the children play in the yard of her Bergen Avenue home. But she did not see them climb into the trunk of the Toyota.

The Cruz family is not responsible for the death of the children, said Villari.

"The police were asked by the family: Did you check the car? And the family was told: `This vehicle is clear. This vehicle is fine.' . . . They were actually instructed not to go to the vehicle or into the yard because at that point it was a potential crime scene," said Villari... (I'm not sure how going to the car to look for jumper cables fits in with this allegation.)

Cruz's mother has been hurt by comments that she should have watched the children more carefully, and she is having a hard time handling scrutiny from the media, her attorney said.

"She can't even go home. That's so sad," said Villari. "How can the family even get in their home, when every time they're near it there's a microphone in your face or a camera following you? . . . She's a very simple, lovely person, and she doesn't understand all of this..."

Statistics from the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta cast doubt on whether the boys could have been alive when police arrived at about 8:25 p.m. on Wednesday - three hours after the boys went missing. In hot summer weather, 19 young children died in trunk entrapment incidents examined by the center from 1987 through 1998. Eleven of the children died in less than two hours. In one case, a 3-year-old survived two hours after being trapped during hot weather.

[Mygirlsadie]

He was also collecting money in traffic for funeral expenses, (along with a group of other people). I have no problem with neighbors and friends doing that but it seems a little tacky when someone directly involved does it. Maybe I'm being too judgemental but it seems like Mr. Cruz jumped on the blame & sue game a little too quickly. The Agosto family seems to still be mourning while Mr. Agosto is meeting with lawyers. I hope that Toyota doesn't have to give him a dime for the beat-up car that was sitting on his wife's lawn. I hope, (and seem to remember), that there is some sort of disclaimer in the manual about not relying on the hydraulic mechanism to keep the trunk up.
Personally I think Mr. Cruz is a very difficult person and is trying to find a way to benefit financially from his sons death. Pretty sad situation and extremely tacky that he would beg for money for the funeral seeing as how the funeral is going to be at no cost to the families it was his choice more than likely to send his sons body to Puerto Rico so he should pay for that himself IMO. I understand this is a tragedy but why is he acting like ''everybody owes me'' ? And as for suing Toyota? What do they have to do with anything? His son isnt even in the grave yet and he is seeing dollar signs what a piece of crap.

[JerseyGirl]

Does anyone know if there is a standard way that the hydraulic mechanism behaves once it starts to break? I had a Camry, and the hydraulic mech. was wearing out. Initially, it would just slide down slightly after raising the trunk, and over time, it would slide lower and lower. At the time that I traded the car in, it would still only slide about half-way closed, and that was after an extensive period of time, (perhaps a year). So I had the entire year to notice that the mechanism was wearing out, and even after that year, it hadn't worn out enough to fall completely shut. Just curious if that is "standard" or if they can flat-out break in some cases.

[JerseyGirl]

Personally I think Mr. Cruz is a very difficult person and is trying to find a way to benefit financially from his sons death. Pretty sad situation and extremely tacky that he would beg for money for the funeral seeing as how the funeral is going to be at no cost to the families it was his choice more than likely to send his sons body to Puerto Rico so he should pay for that himself IMO. I understand this is a tragedy but why is he acting like ''everybody owes me'' ? And as for suing Toyota? What do they have to do with anything? His son isnt even in the grave yet and he is seeing dollar signs what a piece of crap.I meant to say that Mr. Cruz is meeting with attorneys, not Mr. Agosto.

I agree; I am angry about him suing. It's none of my business but I'd be interested in how involved Mr. Cruz had been with Anibal since divorcing his mother a year ago. All we know is that he lived in Philly, and had called DYFS several times on his ex-wife. Common practice in nasty divorces here.

[JerseyGirl]

It also occurs to me that if the beat-up car had been parked on the street rather than sitting on a lawn, (illegal in some towns), perhaps a neigbor would have seen the boys climb in. All what-ifs but I simply think that there is no reason for anyone to be suing anyone in this case.

[Mygirlsadie]

I meant to say that Mr. Cruz is meeting with attorneys, not Mr. Agosto.

I agree; I am angry about him suing. It's none of my business but I'd be interested in how involved Mr. Cruz had been with Anibal since divorcing his mother a year ago. All we know is that he lived in Philly, and had called DYFS several times on his ex-wife. Common practice in nasty divorces here.

I don't see him being too involved really..Not the way Mr.Agosto was anyway this man is in pain he is hurting he loved his son its obvious. Mr.Cruz shows no emotion that his son is dead alls he cares about is how he can benefit from his son dying.If he wants to start playing the blame game then how is he going to like it when they throw back at him ' the old junker was a hazard to children and shouldnt of been in the yard' ' the mother should of been watching him' ' where were YOU Mr. Cruz' ? Those are all things that COULD possibly be thrown right back at him its just the more obvious that NOBODY is to blame here..nobody!

[Mygirlsadie]

It also occurs to me that if the beat-up car had been parked on the street rather than sitting on a lawn, (illegal in some towns), perhaps a neigbor would have seen the boys climb in. All what-ifs but I simply think that there is no reason for anyone to be suing anyone in this case.

Ok JerseyGirl get out of my head..lol my thoughts exactly!

[lostfaith]

It also occurs to me that if the beat-up car had been parked on the street rather than sitting on a lawn, (illegal in some towns), perhaps a neigbor would have seen the boys climb in. All what-ifs but I simply think that there is no reason for anyone to be suing anyone in this case.

I agree.

[JerseyGirl]

Ok JerseyGirl get out of my head..lol my thoughts exactly!lol ... I must say that I'm glad that you and lostfaith feel the same way. I was worried that my thoughts may have sounded insensitive. But I truly am not because my heart aches for Mr. Agosto.

[MlazyV]

It also occurs to me that if the beat-up car had been parked on the street rather than sitting on a lawn, (illegal in some towns), perhaps a neigbor would have seen the boys climb in. All what-ifs but I simply think that there is no reason for anyone to be suing anyone in this case.
Some lawyer probably approached the parents, I doubt it was the other way around. The highly inaccurate estimate given as to how long the boys may have survived likely came from lawyers. They'll work on retainer and take half of any jury award. Real sickos if you ask me.

[Mygirlsadie]

lol ... I must say that I'm glad that you and lostfaith feel the same way. I was worried that my thoughts may have sounded insensitive. But I truly am not because my heart aches for Mr. Agosto.

No not insensitive at all.Everytime I see Mr.Agosto on tv or pictures I wish I could hug him or take his pain away he breaks my heart and knowing there is nothing anyone can do He has God and I hope he can let God guide him through this :( Here is a link I just found its a good read.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/opinion/o062905b.htm

[Txmom]

JerseyGirl, the last two Camrys that we had--a 92 and 2000--the trunks had to be slammed shut. I dont ever remember the trunks closing all the way by themselves. Best cars we ever had. Im sorry for the families, the loss Im sure is very painful.

If the vehicle was parked in the weeds in the lot next to the house, brakes are bad, why wasnt the car towed away for abandonment, and/or why didnt the family keep it locked. Seems to me that if the car was locked the children would never have been able to get into the trunk. I live out in the country and you can bet in Texas the summer heat is horrible, but my windows are down about an inch and the car is always kept locked. My cats love to sleep in the car, and this way they wont get trapped in it. Same goes for small chilren in the area.

[JerseyGirl]

Here is a link I just found its a good read.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/opinion/o062905b.htm
Thank you for the link ... it is a good read. I wish that this situation could be different ... on so many levels. :(

[JerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Thousands Pay Respects At Service For Boys Found In Trunk (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4668660/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

After thousands of people paid their respects to the three boys who died of suffocation in a car trunk last week, members of their families said goodbye in their own way at a packed funeral service Wednesday evening...

Some 500 people squeezed into the Tabernacle of Faith Church for the service. Flowers, photos and a SpongeBob SquarePants balloon adorned the three small, closed white caskets.

Three City Council members presented a memorial proclamation and announced that a new park planned for the Cramer Hill neighborhood would be named after the boys...

As the visitation period began, a line of people two blocks long waited outside the church. The Red Cross handed out water and set up a tent with cots for those who needed relief on the humid, 80-degree evening. Nearby, a woman sold T-shirts with pictures of the three boys for $10.

The mourners included acting Gov. Richard J. Codey, who said he would offer the state's help, if needed, in investigating the circumstances of the boys' deaths.

"I want the families to know we will try to find out as much as possible what happened to the young boys in that car. We will find out what went wrong," Codey said...

A medical examiner has not ruled on when the boys would have died. But several forensic pathologists have said it is likely they had perished before police were called.

Villari, the lawyer, said it's possible that no one is to blame for the deaths. Still, he said, he is investigating whether either the authorities who failed to find the boys' bodies or Toyota might bear some responsibility.

Even (if) there are grounds for a lawsuit, Villari said, that does not mean Elba Cruz will want to file one.

"The family has no predisposition to file any litigation," Villari said. "They basically are overwhelmed by the process. They just need some time to bury" Anibal...

[mysteriew]

A representative for the police who bungled the search for three kids in Camden, N.J., tried yesterday to place the blame for the debacle on a victim's relative — but a lawyer for the family said cops kept them from searching the car in which the boys died.
Officer John Williamson, the police-union president, said the two female cops who initially searched the car were distracted when a family member said the kids were at a pizza parlor down the street.

The officers, both mothers of young children, stopped their search and "immediately responded," he said.

"It's unfortunate that during the time they were engaged in the search, some false leads took them in a different direction," he said.

Peter Villari, a lawyer for the mother of one of the boys, Anibal Cruz, said family members did not search the car because police told them it was "clear."

"They were instructed not to do anything with the vehicle," Villari said

"They relied on the fact that someone had searched the vehicle."

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/25662.htm

[ewwwinteresting]

A representative for the police who bungled the search for three kids in Camden, N.J., tried yesterday to place the blame for the debacle on a victim's relative — but a lawyer for the family said cops kept them from searching the car in which the boys died.
Officer John Williamson, the police-union president, said the two female cops who initially searched the car were distracted when a family member said the kids were at a pizza parlor down the street.

The officers, both mothers of young children, stopped their search and "immediately responded," he said.

"It's unfortunate that during the time they were engaged in the search, some false leads took them in a different direction," he said.

Peter Villari, a lawyer for the mother of one of the boys, Anibal Cruz, said family members did not search the car because police told them it was "clear."

"They were instructed not to do anything with the vehicle," Villari said

"They relied on the fact that someone had searched the vehicle."

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/25662.htm
This is just hard to swallow. If the vehicle was on the property and you knew your child had a history of playing in cars, would there be anybody (including LE) that would stop you from walking over and looking in the car (even for a second or third time)? I would think that LE, the family and volunteer searchers probably searched hiding places in the house and neighborhood numerous times.

[mysteriew]

And don't forget that the family searched for something like 3 hours before the police got there. Experts are guessing that the boys were either severely brain damaged or dead before the LE got there.

[JerseyGirl]

This is just hard to swallow. If the vehicle was on the property and you knew your child had a history of playing in cars, would there be anybody (including LE) that would stop you from walking over and looking in the car (even for a second or third time)? I would think that LE, the family and volunteer searchers probably searched hiding places in the house and neighborhood numerous times.And if the family had asked about the trunk, I'm SURE that LE would have checked it again just to put them at ease. Camden police work their as*es off, trying to fight the crime in that area, and trying to build a good rapport with the community. They would have bent over backwards to find those kids and to help the family.

[MlazyV]

"Peter Villari, a lawyer for the mother of one of the boys, Anibal Cruz, said family members did not search the car because the police told them it was clear."

Considering there is some sort of internal investigation into this tragedy it's certain the officers in question have not spoken to attorney Peter Villari and his information can't be relied upon as a true representation of the entire picture.

[JerseyGirl]

JerseyGirl, the last two Camrys that we had--a 92 and 2000--the trunks had to be slammed shut. I dont ever remember the trunks closing all the way by themselves. Best cars we ever had...Thanks for your response, Txmom. Do you know what year the Camry was in this case? I heard but don't remember. I remember being surprised that it sounded so beaten up. I agree that they are extremely good cars. My first one is gone, replaced by a better make and model but our more recent second car is another Camry.

[Jovin]

It was a 1992.

My car is a 1992 Toyota Tercel, and that's why I remember the year.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/balletcatjovin.gif

[Mygirlsadie]

This is just hard to swallow. If the vehicle was on the property and you knew your child had a history of playing in cars, would there be anybody (including LE) that would stop you from walking over and looking in the car (even for a second or third time)? I would think that LE, the family and volunteer searchers probably searched hiding places in the house and neighborhood numerous times.
Nobody stopped them from going into the trunk to find the jumper cables.

I just don't understand what blaming anyone is going to do. It seems like certain ones are ''fishing'' to find something..anything..to use to file a lawsuit..to sue. It will not bring the boys back they are gone.. forever. Will winning large sums of money make them happy? I think not.

[JerseyGirl]

Nobody stopped them from going into the trunk to find the jumper cables.That's right. They claim that they were told not to go near the car because it was a potential crime scene. Wasn't it still such on the night they went to look for the jumper cables?

[Beyond Belief]

That's right. They claim that they were told not to go near the car because it was a potential crime scene. Wasn't it still such on the night they went to look for the jumper cables?
This all boils down too, if that car had been locked like it should have been this would have never happened.
I think the owner of car, the person who owns the property or leasing it, and their insurance companies can be sued. i think they call it an "attractive nuisance".

[ewwwinteresting]

This all boils down too, if that car had been locked like it should have been this would have never happened.
Absolutely correct! IMO, If these families grieve for the loss of their little boys, the whole world will cry and grieve with them. Point fingers to obtain money and the whole world will turn against you and point them back at you.

[JerseyGirl]

Beyond Belief, your signature line is hilarious. Thanks for the moment of levity.

[Jovin]

This all boils down too, if that car had been locked like it should have been this would have never happened.
....


Okay, let me just say this. I own a 1992 Toyota Tercel and so does my daughter. She has had major problems with her door locks and trunk lock, and I'm starting to have the same problems.

She can't lock the door on one side, or she'll never get it open again, and the same with my one passenger side...I'd have to bend the key to open it...so I do think that this might be a reason why the car wasn't locked. My trunk and my daughter's also are terrible for getting them unlocked and locked.

Also, my car has the 60/40 thing with the back seat (mine is deluxe model and hers a standard) and so therefore, a child could get into my car, and pull that seat forward (it is two separate parts) and crawl into the trunk and when pulling the back seat back to hide, it would lock into place.

There's no way of getting that unlocked from inside the trunk...not on my car..it's a 1992 Toyota Tercel two door, my daughter's is a two door also....the family's was a 1992 Toyota Camry, so I'm only noting this for all it's worth.

[JerseyGirl]

There's no way of getting that unlocked from inside the trunk...not on my car..it's a 1992 Toyota Tercel two door, my daughter's is a two door also....the family's was a 1992 Toyota Camry, so I'm only noting this for all it's worth.My mother had a Tercel, and she had nothing but problems with it. Many friends and I had Camry's, and over time, there were small problems but nothing comparable to those of my Mom's Tercel. I'm sure that that doesn't speak for all Tercel's but where is the Tercel in comparison to the Camry in Toyota's line of vehicles?

[Jovin]

.....but where is the Tercel in comparison to the Camry in Toyota's line of vehicles?

I'm sorry...you'd have to ask a guy that question...I really don't know. Actually my daughter's car was purchased new, and there haven't been any out of the ordinary problems with either of ours...mine was purchased used, and I've put alot of money into it, but it's because apparently someone had had an accident with it and it had been very professionally covered up (by the dealership where I'd bought it) and so it's not the fault of the vehicle.

[Mygirlsadie]

My mother had a Tercel, and she had nothing but problems with it. Many friends and I had Camry's, and over time, there were small problems but nothing comparable to those of my Mom's Tercel. I'm sure that that doesn't speak for all Tercel's but where is the Tercel in comparison to the Camry in Toyota's line of vehicles?
Doesnt it go something like Tercel -small .. Corolla -medium .. Camry .. large.. for all its worth I dont know lol

[JerseyGirl]

Doesnt it go something like Tercel -small .. Corolla -medium .. Camry .. large.. for all its worth I dont know lolI don't know either. But I think it's more than just a size difference. I think that there's also a price difference based on a "quality" difference. But I'm not sure - my mother bought her new Tercel for slightly more than I spent on my used Camry, and I never checked into it to see the price difference on the vehicles new.

Toyota.com : Vehicles : Model Selector : Passenger Seating (http://toyota.com/vehicles/modelselector/seating.html)

Odd, the Tercel isn't listed. Do they still make that car?

Here's what is listed for passenger cars:

Corolla - $13,780
Matrix - $14,860
Camry - $18,195
Camry Solara - $19,380
Prius - $20,975
Avalon - $26,350

[Jovin]

Doesnt it go something like Tercel -small .. Corolla -medium .. Camry .. large.. for all its worth I dont know lol


I'm sure my Tercel is not classified as small...medium is what I'd say.

[ewwwinteresting]

I don't know either. But I think it's more than just a size difference. I think that there's also a price difference based on a "quality" difference. But I'm not sure - my mother bought her new Tercel for slightly more than I spent on my used Camry, and I never checked into it to see the price difference on the vehicles new.
For what its worth. My friend has the same year CAMRY and has had NO problems with the locks (in the car or trunk). In addition, if your lock is broken, it is still your responsibility to take care of your vehicle. How is the Toyota automaker going to know Joe Smith in NJ's trunk lock is broken?

[Beyond Belief]

Okay, let me just say this. I own a 1992 Toyota Tercel and so does my daughter. She has had major problems with her door locks and trunk lock, and I'm starting to have the same problems.

She can't lock the door on one side, or she'll never get it open again, and the same with my one passenger side...I'd have to bend the key to open it...so I do think that this might be a reason why the car wasn't locked. My trunk and my daughter's also are terrible for getting them unlocked and locked.

Also, my car has the 60/40 thing with the back seat (mine is deluxe model and hers a standard) and so therefore, a child could get into my car, and pull that seat forward (it is two separate parts) and crawl into the trunk and when pulling the back seat back to hide, it would lock into place.

There's no way of getting that unlocked from inside the trunk...not on my car..it's a 1992 Toyota Tercel two door, my daughter's is a two door also....the family's was a 1992 Toyota Camry, so I'm only noting this for all it's worth.
I can't offer anything in connection with the excellent information you posted.
My experience with Tercel, which was or still is Toyota's economy car. My mother purchased her 93 new from the dealer for around 12,000, trading in a very sharp celica. There were never any issues at all. Its(the tercel) life ended sitting in her driveway with 53,000 miles on it last year when an unidentified driver, drove up the neighbors driveway, across the yard and pushed the tercel into the oak tree. We found a corrolla 95 for 6,000 with 34000 miles on it and she has that now. It has no issues. I have no idea about the trunk set ups on either one.
My hundai has the lever in the drivers seat to open the trunk, but thats a 01. I recently saw two boys playing in the trunk of a car in a mall parking lot and was worried about them, but then saw the mother was in the car. There was plenty of room in there for them, I don't know what kind of car it was. But when this (camden) happened even though I had recently seen that, it never entered my mind to think of something like that happening in this case.

[Beyond Belief]

Tercel is considered a compact car.

[Jovin]

Tercel is considered a compact car.


I have no idea if it's a compact or a medium sized car..but I've had it described as medium in size to me before.

[Jovin]

I can't offer anything in connection with the excellent information you posted. ....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/laughing.gif
You MUST have me mixed up with some OTHER poster! (but thank you anyway!) I'm really only good for smilies..not for posting "excellent information" on anything.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/morningcoffee.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/Jovin__cat.gif

[Beyond Belief]

http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_Toyota_Tercel_1992.html

Owner reviews on 92 tercel

[Beyond Belief]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/laughing.gif
You MUST have me mixed up with some OTHER poster! (but thank you anyway!) I'm really only good for smilies..not for posting "excellent information" on anything.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/morningcoffee.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/Jovin__cat.gif
:crazy: It made sense to me. LOL

[Jovin]

:crazy: It made sense to me. LOL

That's what worries me! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/whoa.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/LOLstars.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/mirror.gif

[mysteriew]

The two female police officers who botched the search for the three Camden, N.J., kids who suffocated in a car trunk will likely face disciplinary action, a city official said.

Meanwhile, former Camden mayoral candidate Keith Walker has enlisted the help of the former police chief to conduct a "grass-roots investigation" into the tragedy. "We don't want the weight to fall on the rank-and-file officers," said Walker, who alleged that the city is looking for a scapegoat.

Walker said he was urged to conduct the probe by the family of Anibal, whose casket was flown to Puerto Rico after yesterday's service.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/49183.htm

[Mygirlsadie]

The two female police officers who botched the search for the three Camden, N.J., kids who suffocated in a car trunk will likely face disciplinary action, a city official said.

Meanwhile, former Camden mayoral candidate Keith Walker has enlisted the help of the former police chief to conduct a "grass-roots investigation" into the tragedy. "We don't want the weight to fall on the rank-and-file officers," said Walker, who alleged that the city is looking for a scapegoat.

Walker said he was urged to conduct the probe by the family of Anibal, whose casket was flown to Puerto Rico after yesterday's service.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/49183.htm
I somehow don't think it is fair that these two female officers are going to face disciplinary actions..think about all the little children who go missing and are NEVER found the LE that do the searches of these children arent disciplined for not finding them and no disrespect but Anibals family urged to conduct the probe of a ''grass roots investigation'' was it not their yard? their broke down car with the doors unlocked? their house? their phone that didnt call 911 for some 3 hours? their going inside to cook dinner and leaving the disabled child unattended? I'm sorry God Bless those families for what they are going through but to discipline some officers for doing their best to find these boys its just plain wrong to me. From what I read and see on tv about this case those officers were searching high and low for them It's impossible to search everywhere yes the car was right there in the yard but nobody thought to search the trunk not one single person LE or family or neighbors..nobody! Officers are humans just like us they don't have some kind of magical thinking power.

[ewwwinteresting]

I somehow don't think it is fair that these two female officers are going to face disciplinary actions..think about all the little children who go missing and are NEVER found the LE that do the searches of these children arent disciplined for not finding them and no disrespect but Anibals family urged to conduct the probe of a ''grass roots investigation'' was it not their yard? their broke down car with the doors unlocked? their house? their phone that didnt call 911 for some 3 hours? their going inside to cook dinner and leaving the disabled child unattended? I'm sorry God Bless those families for what they are going through but to discipline some officers for doing their best to find these boys its just plain wrong to me. From what I read and see on tv about this case those officers were searching high and low for them It's impossible to search everywhere yes the car was right there in the yard but nobody thought to search the trunk not one single person LE or family or neighbors..nobody! Officers are humans just like us they don't have some kind of magical thinking power.
:clap: :clap:

I can't imagine what future searches of missing children will be like if LE has to take a hit on this one. Nobody is going to want to get involved for fear if they don't look in the right place at the right time, they will be discipline action or be sued. This is just wrong!

[Kathleen]

I still think that if the mother who was "watching" the 3 boys was only gone inside for a short time, even 30 minutes or so, that when she came out she would have heard the boys crying or yelling or something. Surely they did not climb into the trunk and lie there quietly and die...Since the mom knew the boys played in the car sometimes, and if it is true their shirts were found inside the car, why did she not look in there immediately? They could have at least pounded on the trunk and called to them, pryed the trunk open, etc..why wait 3 hours to call or get started, unless she was unaware of them missing for that long and lied. Kathleen

[JerseyGirl]

:clap: :clap:

I can't imagine what future searches of missing children will be like if LE has to take a hit on this one. Nobody is going to want to get involved for fear if they don't look in the right place at the right time, they will be discipline action or be sued. This is just wrong!Not to mention the fact that if there was ever a city that could NOT afford a lawsuit, Camden is it. Their police force did the best that they could, chasing down false leads. And now, a city that is already labeled "most dangerous" in America is going to have to part with a huge chunk of money when they're already strapped for cash and manpower just trying to keep the city out of the grips of chaos???? Pathetic, IMO. My prayers for healing go out to everyone involved. My respect and admiration for the officers of Camden, New Jersey for putting your lives on the line every day for a community that has yet to pull itself up from the ashes. This lawsuit certainly isn't going to help. :( :( :(

[JerseyGirl]

They could have at least pounded on the trunk and called to them, pryed the trunk open, etc..why wait 3 hours to call or get started, unless she was unaware of them missing for that long and lied. KathleenVery good point; I never thought of that.

[Beyond Belief]

I am a little concerned that someone may have told them to get in the trunk and be quiet, you know a little joke on Mom. Whoever diverted the original searchers, the parents and neighbors, away from the yard needs to be looked at to see if this was intentional.

[Mygirlsadie]

I am a little concerned that someone may have told them to get in the trunk and be quiet, you know a little joke on Mom. Whoever diverted the original searchers, the parents and neighbors, away from the yard needs to be looked at to see if this was intentional.
Hmm you know I never thought of that but you could be right. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know what really happened. The only ones who really know when and why and how they got in the trunk of that car are no longer with us. Someone mentioned something in a earlier post about the parents not really knowing how long the kids were missing and maybe making up how long they really were unsupervised. Sadly I am kind of leaning towards that aspect as well.

[Beyond Belief]

Hmm you know I never thought of that but you could be right. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know what really happened. The only ones who really know when and why and how they got in the trunk of that car are no longer with us. Someone mentioned something in a earlier post about the parents not really knowing how long the kids were missing and maybe making up how long they really were unsupervised. Sadly I am kind of leaning towards that aspect as well.
I hope this is just an accident. They really did look like nice sincere people.

[BabyGirlsMom]

I've never posted to this site before but find it extremely interesting and think all of you are wonderful for the time and energy you put into these missing persons. I have to agree that LE is NOT to blame in this case. My husband is a police officer in this county (Camden) and I can tell you first hand that he spent about 14 hours a day for three days looking for these boys. People from all over the city and county, even those who had no connection to LE or the families, volunteered their time and resources looking for these children. It's a tragic, horrifying accident but if there is anyone to blame, it's the parents. Why was no one watching these kids? I've heard one or two of the parents blame LE for not searching the trunk when they conducted a search of the car...OK, fine but did any of the parents think to check the trunk? I cannot imagine having to deal with this type of situation, and I pray that I never have to, but I think it's time for parents to start taking responsibility for their own children! Just my opinion...thanks for letting me vent.

Keep up the great work.

[JerseyGirl]

Hi BabyGirl'sMom. Welcome to WS, and thanks for joining in and sharing your opinion!

I agree that the police should not be held responsible for this tragedy. I'm sure that everyone searching that day was hoping and praying to find those children alive. My heartfelt thanks to your husband for helping in the search, and also for putting his life on the line daily to look after all of us, and to try to make our neck of the woods a little safer. I truly appreciate it.

[Mygirlsadie]

I've never posted to this site before but find it extremely interesting and think all of you are wonderful for the time and energy you put into these missing persons. I have to agree that LE is NOT to blame in this case. My husband is a police officer in this county (Camden) and I can tell you first hand that he spent about 14 hours a day for three days looking for these boys. People from all over the city and county, even those who had no connection to LE or the families, volunteered their time and resources looking for these children. It's a tragic, horrifying accident but if there is anyone to blame, it's the parents. Why was no one watching these kids? I've heard one or two of the parents blame LE for not searching the trunk when they conducted a search of the car...OK, fine but did any of the parents think to check the trunk? I cannot imagine having to deal with this type of situation, and I pray that I never have to, but I think it's time for parents to start taking responsibility for their own children! Just my opinion...thanks for letting me vent.

Keep up the great work.
Hi! Welcome babygirlsmom!! Heres a big pat on the back for your hubby believe me we all here know they did an outstanding job in Camden. Unfortunately money is the root of all evil and for some people figuring out a way to get ''free'' money even if it involves their own childrens blood money that is what they will do ..blame whoever they can think to blame in hopes of cashing in...

[JerseyGirl]

`Angels' laid to rest (http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m070105a.htm)

A mother sobbed. A father sadly stroked his son's coffin. And scores of mourners sent green and white balloons skyward Thursday as grieving families buried two of the three boys found dead in a car trunk last week.

Jesstin "Manny" Pagan, 5, and Daniel Agosto, 6, were laid to rest side by side at an emotional ceremony in Harleigh Cemetery.

A coffin holding the third boy, Anibal "Junie" Cruz Jr., 11, was placed next to the others for the service. It was removed later for eventual burial in Puerto Rico...

"We don't say goodbye, but we say, `See you later' " Calderon said at the church service. As a baby wailed and adults wept, the boys' fathers helped carry the coffins to waiting hearses.

Police motorcycles then led a funeral cortege of more than 100 cars from the downtown church to the Parkside cemetery...

The deaths touched off an outpouring of support from city residents, with an estimated 5,000 people attending a visitation for the boys Wednesday night...

[BabyGirlsMom]

Thanks so much for the welcome! I apologize if I came off like I (or my husband) wanted a pat on the back, as that is certainly not why I posted. My husband knew what he was taking on when he joined the force...that is unfortunately part of the job, whether they like it or not. I just really pisses me off that these parents (not all of them, but at least 2) are looking to sue the police force and Toyota! Shouldn't responsible parents teach their children not to play inside cars, abandoned or not. And who is responsible for the Toyota being abandoned and unlocked in the back yard to begin with! It just amazes me how stupid and ignorant people are. You need a permit to buy a gun, but anyone can have children...what's wrong with that! Sorry, venting...

[JerseyGirl]

BabyGirlsMom, I didn't think that you were looking for a pat on the back ... I just wanted you to know, after hearing what your husband does, how very much we appreciate it! :)

[BabyGirlsMom]

Thanks so much!

[Mygirlsadie]

Thanks so much for the welcome! I apologize if I came off like I (or my husband) wanted a pat on the back, as that is certainly not why I posted. My husband knew what he was taking on when he joined the force...that is unfortunately part of the job, whether they like it or not. I just really pisses me off that these parents (not all of them, but at least 2) are looking to sue the police force and Toyota! Shouldn't responsible parents teach their children not to play inside cars, abandoned or not. And who is responsible for the Toyota being abandoned and unlocked in the back yard to begin with! It just amazes me how stupid and ignorant people are. You need a permit to buy a gun, but anyone can have children...what's wrong with that! Sorry, venting...
In no way did you come off like wanting a pat on the back..I just think give credit where credit is due!! :crazy: I followed this case from the beginning and I saw with my own 2 eyes how the police were working their a$$es off trying to do everything in their power to find these little boys. I hope these parents sueing have their ducks in a row because they are also open for major investigating if they do plan on sueing and as for sueing Toyota that is just plain azz retarded i'm sorry...I want to say that I heard or read that Daniel Agostos father is actually getting mad at people telling and talking to him about sueing that he isnt even given the chance to mourn his son because everyone is pressuring him and that he does not want to sue that the Police did everything they could do..bless his heart

[JerseyGirl]

I want to say that I heard or read that Daniel Agostos father is actually getting mad at people telling and talking to him about sueing that he isnt even given the chance to mourn his son because everyone is pressuring him and that he does not want to sue that the Police did everything they could do..bless his heartThat is correct - it was mentioned in an article last week.

[BabyGirlsMom]

That is the father that found them in the trunk, correct? He was all over the news and newspapers thanking the police and all other volunteers, and said he did not blame the police by any means. He said that the police and volunteers were the best, did everything they could, and that it was just a tragic accident. But I think it's one of the other fathers (that did not live with the child) that also said he was suing DYFS (Child Services) because he reported to them several times that his child had a tendency to wander off and the child's mother was not watching him, and since he lived in Pennsylvania and didn't see the child as much, he was asking for DYFS's help in making sure the child was safe. Well, he's only across the bridge--less than 10 minutes away--but he too, needs someone to blame for not being involved in his child's life! People amaze me.

[JerseyGirl]

That is the father that found them in the trunk, correct? He was all over the news and newspapers thanking the police and all other volunteers, and said he did not blame the police by any means. He said that the police and volunteers were the best, did everything they could, and that it was just a tragic accident. But I think it's one of the other fathers (that did not live with the child) that also said he was suing DYFS (Child Services) because he reported to them several times that his child had a tendency to wander off and the child's mother was not watching him, and since he lived in Pennsylvania and didn't see the child as much, he was asking for DYFS's help in making sure the child was safe. Well, he's only across the bridge--less than 10 minutes away--but he too, needs someone to blame for not being involved in his child's life! People amaze me.Yes, you're right - Mr. Agosto lived with his son, and is the one that found the boys, and has been thanking everyone. Anibal Cruz, (the one who did NOT live with his son), is the one that wants to sue.

[Txmom]

BabyGirlsMom, Welcome and tell your husband and his coworkers that we all are proud of the job that they do. I realize that his job can be frustrating, but also rewarding. Thank you.

Parents seem to forget what their job is once their child enters this world. This is a 24 hour a day job until the child is on their own. I dont believe that our job as parent ends when the child enters college or the workforce--it continues for a lifetime. We just dont have to commit to the 24 hours. I told my children that I didnt care if they were 50 years old, if they were doing something that I thought was screwbally I would say something.

Shame on you Mr. Cruz for not living closer to your son and you keeping any eye on him. You are the parent not CPS. If you didnt feel that his mother was doing a good enough job, then you should have lived in the neighborhood and had him over to your house as much as you possibly could have.

I am real interested to see how Toyota handles this. I firmly believe that this is the parents fault. I never had problems with the trunk on our two Camrys.

With the 2000 Camry, you can only open the trunk from the outside with a key. Or from the inside you can lift the lever and the trunk would pop open. But the trunk had to be pushed closed. It did not close on its own. Several times I accidently lifted the wrong lever and I did drive with the trunk not secure. Didnt notice because the lid just stayed in the open position, the trunk only sprung up if I hit a bump. You can enter the trunk thru the back seat but, you had to push this button down and the seats would unlock, but mine did not flop down you had to physically push them down. And the seats did not spring back, you have to slam them back into position. Mine did not have straps on the seats so that if you were in the trunk you could close the seats and "lock" yourself in the trunk.

I believe that their Camry was a 96? We also had a 92, but I dont remember any difference in the trunk. I do remember that the opening behind the back seats in the 2000 was larger than the opening in the 92. Camry owners--did you experience what I did with mine?

I believe that whoever owns the Camry is at fault. The vehicle should have been locked so that no one could have entered it. Toyota and the Camden Police Dept., should not be responsible for the boys deaths.

[JerseyGirl]

I am real interested to see how Toyota handles this. I firmly believe that this is the parents fault. I never had problems with the trunk on our two Camrys.

With the 2000 Camry, you can only open the trunk from the outside with a key. Or from the inside you can lift the lever and the trunk would pop open. But the trunk had to be pushed closed. It did not close on its own. Several times I accidently lifted the wrong lever and I did drive with the trunk not secure. Didnt notice because the lid just stayed in the open position, the trunk only sprung up if I hit a bump. You can enter the trunk thru the back seat but, you had to push this button down and the seats would unlock, but mine did not flop down you had to physically push them down. And the seats did not spring back, you have to slam them back into position. Mine did not have straps on the seats so that if you were in the trunk you could close the seats and "lock" yourself in the trunk.

I believe that their Camry was a 96? We also had a 92, but I dont remember any difference in the trunk. I do remember that the opening behind the back seats in the 2000 was larger than the opening in the 92. Camry owners--did you experience what I did with mine?

I believe that whoever owns the Camry is at fault. The vehicle should have been locked so that no one could have entered it. Toyota and the Camden Police Dept., should not be responsible for the boys deaths.Honestly, based on my wonderful experiences with 2 Camry's, it sounds like their Camry was a beaten up piece of junk. I don't know how hard you have to drive a Camry to get it into that kind of condition but I've never known a Camry to be in such bad shape. But you never know ... even the best cars have a bad batch here and there.

Unfortunately, I think that the way that Toyota is going to deal with this situation is to settle for a sum that's large enough to get Anibal Cruz, Sr. off of their backs but small enough to make it worth it to keep it out of court. What a shame - I wish they would fight it "tooth and nail" just on principle.

[LaurenD]

Responsibility, morals, character and knowing right from wrong ends....where lawsuits and $$$ begins......tooooo sad.....

[ewwwinteresting]

Honestly, based on my wonderful experiences with 2 Camry's, it sounds like their Camry was a beaten up piece of junk. I don't know how hard you have to drive a Camry to get it into that kind of condition but I've never known a Camry to be in such bad shape. But you never know ... even the best cars have a bad batch here and there.

Unfortunately, I think that the way that Toyota is going to deal with this situation is to settle for a sum that's large enough to get Anibal Cruz, Sr. off of their backs but small enough to make it worth it to keep it out of court. What a shame - I wish they would fight it "tooth and nail" just on principle.
I'm right there with you JG! Unfortunately the cost to defend lawsuits makes it worth settling, even if you are at NO FAULT. Wish this part of our legal system was different (especially in a case like this one)!

[ewwwinteresting]

Responsibility, morals, character and knowing right from wrong ends....where lawsuits and $$$ begins......tooooo sad.....
Very well put!:clap:

[Mygirlsadie]

Very well put!:clap:
Yep I agree too. I just dont understand why before these poor little boys were in the ground yet the parents were already screaming lawsuits.IF something happened to one of my kids I couldnt even comprehend anything like eating or drinking let alone already contemplating lawsuits. :(

[Mygirlsadie]

http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m071605n.htm

[WindChime]

I'm going to close this thread and start a part 2.:-)