NJ-3 boys (ages 5, 6, and 11), disappear while playing outside - Camden, New Jersey

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Three Boys Reported Missing In Camden (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4642218/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

The children were last seen by friends and relatives playing in a yard near Bergen Avenue at around 5:30 p.m.

The three have been identified as Anibal Cruz, 11; Daniel Agosto, 6: and Justin "Manny" Pagan, 5, all of Camden...

Relatives say Anibal was wearing a green shirt with sweatpants, Daniel was wearing blue sweatpants, and Justin is missing a tooth and wearing light blue shirt with a basketball on it.

"We love our kids very much," said a father of one of the boys. "If you know where they are at, please come forward. We miss them and we love them."

Relatives told NBC 10 these boys are very responsible. They are three friends who often play together but never have disappeared like this before.

If you have any information about the whereabouts of these boys, you are urged to contact Camden police at 856-757-7042.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - Slideshow (http://www.nbc10.com/slideshow/news/4642228/detail.html)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com FeedRoom (http://nbc10.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=313749)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

mcall.com - Camden family, police search for 3 missing boys (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-missingkids0623,0,7980494.story?coll=all-news-hed)

... "I turned my back for two seconds and they were gone," said Jessica Pagan, Jesstin's mother, who brought her son from their home in nearby Mount Ephraim to the city to visit friends.

A passer-by at about 8:15 a.m. Thursday told one of the mothers the boys were seen late Wednesday near the Delaware River, about three blocks from the house where they had been playing. Friends and relatives headed there to continue searching.

The home from which they disappeared is a few doors from a school and in a neighborhood that is safer than most in Camden, which has been called the nation's most dangerous city.

[lady-eowyn]

A passer-by at about 8:15 a.m. Thursday told one of the mothers the boys were seen late Wednesday near the Delaware River, about three blocks from the house where they had been playing. Friends and relatives headed there to continue searching.

Oh no, please don't let this be another drowning...not that I want it to be an abduction either.:(

I pray that they find them soon, safe and alive...

[luthersmama]

Oh no, please don't let this be another drowning...not that I want it to be an abduction either.:(

I pray that they find them soon, safe and alive...


The river was my first thought. THis happens every summer in Philly and Camde, over and over again.

[Beyond Belief]

I grew up on a lake in Mt Epraim. No one ever drowned, we fell in alot, but never drowned, however that Delaware River could be dangerous. Thats so dirty, those kids shouldn't haven't even been messing near it. I learned to water ski in the Delaware with dead fish floating all over the place. Yuk!

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It was said on the news this morning that the river is fast-moving at that location. So if they fell in, it would be bad. :( I'm hoping that they didn't because would all 3 fall in together? Wouldn't at least one make it back? I'm hoping and praying that they will be okay.

[lady-eowyn]

It was said on the news this morning that the river is fast-moving at that location. So if they fell in, it would be bad. :( I'm hoping that they didn't because would all 3 fall in together? Wouldn't at least one make it back? I'm hoping and praying that they will be okay.
Logically you would think if one of the younger ones fell in that the older one (11 yr old) would run for help...and if the older one fell in that the younger ones would be too afraid to try and help. So yes, I agree that to me it would seem strange that all three fell in at the same time. But stranger things have happened:confused:

[turbosleuthing]

How sad.

I pray those boys are found safe.

Maybe the younger one(s) fell in and the older one went in to try to save them.

Hoping this has a happy outcome.

Turbo

[Beyond Belief]

When those big ships pass by with the tug boats the waves are huge.

I hope they find them. I am thinking if they went into the water, search boats would have found them by now.

The Courier Post is the local paper, but it only had the same story as Fox.

[Beyond Belief]

From looking at a map, that area, looks like the Cramer Hill area. Bergen Ave runs to what looks like a stream off the Delaware. If their in the water they will find them.

[christine2448]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/23/missing.children.ap/index.html


Police Chief Edwin Figueroa said authorities had received several reported sightings of the children in different parts of the city.
The place from which they disappeared is a few doors from a school and in a neighborhood that is safer than most in Camden, which last fall was ranked most dangerous in the United States in a reference book that compares crime statistics.

The area is about three blocks from the Delaware River, and family and relatives briefly went to a wooded area along the river Thursday morning and called out the children's names.

[Beyond Belief]

I hope if there are any railroads in this area, they searching them. I remember at 6 yrs old walking down the railroad in Mt Ephraim with my companion a five yr, when we got to the next town and there were the mommies, screaming at us. I knew where I was. Kids that play along these areas known them well.

I am praying for a safe return for these three boys.

[Beyond Belief]

Nearly 140 police officers, cadets and firefighters have joined the search for three boys who were last seen playing outside a home Wednesday night.

The search is stretching across the city's Cramer Hill neighborhood from the Delaware River out to River Road, as well as into Pennsauken near Petty's Island. A Cherry Hill police dog was tracking one of the boys' scents near the Delaware River by Farragut Avenue, authorities said at a noon media briefing.

[christine2448]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/christine2448/3boys.jpg

From left: Jesstin Pagan, 5; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11.



Praying these precious children are found safe!

[christine2448]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/23/missing.children.ap/index.html

Officials said they think the boys, ages 5 to 11, are too young to have wandered very far since last being seen Wednesday evening. The river is about three blocks from the home where they were playing.
Police have used helicopters and search dogs to scour the neighborhood, and volunteers handed out fliers to passing cars displaying photos of Jesstin Pagan, 5; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11.

Police Capt. Harry Leon said Cruz has the mental capacity of a younger child, part of the reason officials think the trio stayed in the area. The boys were playing in the side yard of Cruz's home at about 5 p.m. when they were last seen by relatives. Agosto lives across the street.

[VespaElf]

Is it just me or were these 3 boys way too young to be outside alone???
ESP. in CAMDEN!!!!(Time magazine's "Worst City in the World")?????? I lived for awhile in Gloucester City and let me tell you I wouldnt let my dog outside alone much less a child!

Let's hope these boys are found fast and their parents learn a harsh lesson!!!!!!!

[Timex]

Is it just me or were these 3 boys way too young to be outside alone???
ESP. in CAMDEN!!!!(Time magazine's "Worst City in the World")?????? I lived for awhile in Gloucester City and let me tell you I wouldnt let my dog outside alone much less a child!

Let's hope these boys are found fast and their parents learn a harsh lesson!!!!!!!

From how it sounds, they werent outside alone. Someone (an aunt?) stated she was with them, but turned her back for a minute and they were gone.

[Beyond Belief]

Is it just me or were these 3 boys way too young to be outside alone???
ESP. in CAMDEN!!!!(Time magazine's "Worst City in the World")?????? I lived for awhile in Gloucester City and let me tell you I wouldnt let my dog outside alone much less a child!

Let's hope these boys are found fast and their parents learn a harsh lesson!!!!!!!
Back in the 50's and 60's when i grew up im Mt Epraim, we weren't even allowed to go to Gloucester back then. My father grew up there and thought it was to rough.

here is a link for camden
This website is constructed with old postcards of old Camden. It takes a few minutes for it all to load, but it is a stunning recording of history in historic Camden.
http://www.dvrbs.com/CamdenNJ-Postcards.htm

[lady-eowyn]

From how it sounds, they werent outside alone. Someone (an aunt?) stated she was with them, but turned her back for a minute and they were gone.
Timex is right...the article did state that an aunt I believe was with them and turned her back for what she said was a second...maybe it was longer than a second, but we can't expect adults to keep their eyes on children every single second, it's impossible.

[Beyond Belief]

Just keep praying. It worked for Brennan, just maybe God will hear us again.

[VespaElf]

Back in the 50's and 60's when i grew up im Mt Epraim, we weren't even allowed to go to Gloucester back then. My father grew up there and thought it was to rough.

here is a link for camden
This website is constructed with old postcards of old Camden. It takes a few minutes for it all to load, but it is a stunning recording of history in historic Camden.
http://www.dvrbs.com/CamdenNJ-Postcards.htm


Gloucester is still really rough and not a nice place (the Klan isstill strong there).
Everyone blames the factories shutting down but it was rough before then.

The town was in the Gunniness book of world records for having the most bars per capita.There is literally at least one bar on every street.

Its a rough,working class drinking town.

Camden is right next door and it is straight up ghetto-actually beyond ghetto.Its a war zone.Its full of gangs and crackhouses and everything that comes with it.It makes So.Central look like The Hamptons hence my questioning of why these boys were not being watched.

Like I said Time magaizine named it "The Worst City In The World".Im from the area so thats why Im digressing into this..........

[Beyond Belief]

Gloucester is still really rough and not a nice place (the Klan isstill strong there).
Everyone blames the factories shutting down but it was rough before then.

The town was in the Gunniness book of world records for having the most bars per capita.There is literally at least one bar on every street.

Its a rough,working class drinking town.

Camden is right next door and it is straight up ghetto-actually beyond ghetto.Its a war zone.Its full of gangs and crackhouses and everything that comes with it.It makes So.Central look like The Hamptons hence my questioning of why these boys were not being watched.

Like I said Time magaizine named it "The Worst City In The World".Im from the area so thats why Im digressing into this..........
I know Gloucester pretty well and Camden. Too bad old historical areas like that have come to rot and ruin. I was just in Glou two yrs ago. I wasn't afraid and didn't see anybody on the streets except some kids on Broadway going home from school. That town was settled in the 1600's. My grandparents and great grandparents all lived in Gloucester and frequented all those neighborhood bars. It hasn't changed just different people. Rough is right.

[Beyond Belief]

I just wanted to add more about Camden and Gloucester. Searching census reports from the early 1900's, those row homes were rental units way back then. They still stand today, being rented out. The slum lords are at fault and I wonder who just owns that those bug infested dumps.

[Beyond Belief]

i can't believe they haven't found these kids by now. Is there any chance of an estranged parent abducting them?

[luthersmama]

i can't believe they haven't found these kids by now. Is there any chance of an estranged parent abducting them?


They are not related to one another.

[Beyond Belief]

They are not related to one another.
i know their not. I just checked the sexual offenders list, 300 names came up.

[Beyond Belief]

CAMDEN, N.J. — Authorities used helicopters, boats, a bloodhound and a house-by-house search Thursday to try to find three boys missing since the prior evening.

Their families' search for the boys, ages 5 to 11, began soon after the three friends vanished around 5 p.m. Wednesday as they played outside one of their homes. Police said they were notified at about 9 p.m.

Authorities have no reason to believe the boys were abducted, but that possibility had not been ruled out, said police Lt. Mike Lynch.

As time wore on during a day of worries, tearful embraces, prayers and frantic searching, relatives fretted about how the oldest of the boys — who has limited mental abilities and attention deficit disorder — might fare without his medication.

"We've done everything we can. The only thing we can do now is hope and pray we'll turn around and they'll be walking down the sidewalk and saying, 'We're here,'" said Jennifer Calo, an aunt of 11-year-old Anibal Cruz (search (javascript:siteSearch('Anibal Cruz');)).

Elba Cruz, Anibal's mother, said she was outside with the boys Wednesday and went in for just a few minutes to check on something cooking in her kitchen.
When she returned, her son, 6-year-old neighbor Daniel Agosto (search (javascript:siteSearch('Daniel Agosto');)) and 5-year-old friend Jesstin Pagan (search (javascript:siteSearch('Jesstin Pagan');)) were missing.

Jesstin Pagan and his mother, Jessica, were visiting the Cruz home from their house in nearby Mount Ephraim.

"I turned my back for two seconds and they were gone," Jessica Pagan said.

Daniel's mother was inside her home across the street napping at the time. "This is the first time for him to leave the block," she said Thursday as she watched police cordon off a nearby wooded area with yellow tape.

In the mostly Puerto Rican Cramer Hill neighborhood, which is considered a relatively safe place in a city one crime analyst called America's most dangerous, family and neighbors immediately began a search.

When police arrived, they used helicopters and began going door to door. Search efforts lasted through the night, then intensified Thursday morning with authorities giving special scrutiny to abandoned homes, railroad tracks and parks.

Relatives of the boys said that they were spotted Wednesday evening at a nearby water-ice stand, then a pizzeria, but Lynch said those sightings could not be confirmed.

Police said that because of the boys' ages — and Anibal's mental capabilities — they did not believe they could have gotten too far from the neighborhood. Still, police in neighboring Pennsauken and Mount Ephraim searched in their towns.

A police dog tracked a scent taken from one of the boys' clothing to an overgrown wooded area along the Delaware River a half-dozen blocks from the Cruz home.

Throughout the day Thursday, a state police helicopter buzzed over the woods while three fire department rescue boats patrolled the river's bank.

Meanwhile, weary volunteers handed out fliers to people in passing cars while police considered all the possibilities.

"There's no tangible evidence we've received to say, 'Yeah, there's foul play here,"' Lynch said. At the same time, he said, authorities approached the disappearances as a possible crime.

He said investigators were determining whether any registered sex offenders lived in the neighborhood and looking into whether anything in the boys' homes would indicate a relative wanted to abduct them.

Lynch said that neither avenue was bearing fruit.

Neighbors in the closely knit area kept a close watch on police. As a search dog followed a scent, she was followed through streets of single-family homes by several police officers, a small pack of reporters and photographers and a group of residents, including a girl on a bike and a mother pushing a stroller.

[mysteriew]

Here's to hoping the kids are found.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/mysteriew/sad/candle_3.gif

[Sniffy38]

Hi Everyone: I just started reading this thread, as I've been watching the Natalee Hollway case. I saw coverage of this tonight on Fox and was so surprised, since I get the Courier Post daily and didn't see anything about it this morning.

It's also surprising to see how many good folks here are from my neck of the woods. I live in Gloucester County, but have been here a little less than 7 yrs. The internet really is a small place after all. My DH used to work in Cherry Hill. I decided to surprise him one day and set out for his business. I somehow made a wrong turn and ended up right in front of Camden High School. Let me tell you, I was one scared girl. I frantically called him to come find me, but since I was lost, I couldn't tell him exactly where I was - LOL. Here I am, a blonde driving a Lexus, and I definitely stood out. I cried and shook for a long time. His boss later told me that had I turned 2 blocks in either direction, I would have been in the middle of a war zone. Needless to say, I never attempted to visit hubby at work again - whew!

I so hope to hear good news about these little lost boys. My heart aches for their families.

[Beyond Belief]

Hi Sniffy


I remember doing that a few times, looking for the home my ancestors lived in Camden a hundred years ago. I'll never get to see them far too dangerous for the blonde in the lexus. LOL

Greta is talking now about the kids. Either the Delaware claimed them or they got grabbed which I don't think is the case, unless it was a family member of one of them.

[Mygirlsadie]

I just wanted to add more about Camden and Gloucester. Searching census reports from the early 1900's, those row homes were rental units way back then. They still stand today, being rented out. The slum lords are at fault and I wonder who just owns that those bug infested dumps.

This is so heart breaking.. :( Does anyone know how far this is from Allentown Pa?

[Nore]

I pray to God they find the boys soon.I am so afraid for them....

[Gracelin]

This is so heart breaking.. :( Does anyone know how far this is from Allentown Pa?
Maybe 45 miles + or -

I too never heard a word until Greta came on...
Praying them babies didn't go into the water, It was a little warm yesterday.

[Beyond Belief]

This is so heart breaking.. :( Does anyone know how far this is from Allentown Pa?
No but if you run it on mapquest it will tell youl
Cramer Hill is a relatively safe area.

[LaurenD]

Back in the 50's and 60's when i grew up im Mt Epraim, we weren't even allowed to go to Gloucester back then. My father grew up there and thought it was to rough.

here is a link for camden
This website is constructed with old postcards of old Camden. It takes a few minutes for it all to load, but it is a stunning recording of history in historic Camden.
http://www.dvrbs.com/CamdenNJ-Postcards.htm
Nice old photos of Camden. Thank you. I've never been there but it sure looks like a quaint town back in the day......

[Sheromom]

This is sad, sad, sad. I have a feeling that the little ones went in the river and the older one in after them. I can't imagine the overwhelming guilt mixed with fear and worry of the mother who was watching them. Prayers for all involved but especially her.

[KrazyKollector]

I will still pray for a good outcome but hope is dimming. :( They are just so young, much younger than the Hawkins boy. Kids just move so fast!

It seems the parents started searching right away. Maybe the kids walked between houses and stuff, making it difficult to see them.

[Beyond Belief]

http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m062405a.htm

[VespaElf]

This is so heart breaking.. :( Does anyone know how far this is from Allentown Pa?


HOURS from Allentown!!!!!! I dont know who said 45 minutes but thats wayyyy off.

Let's see in NJ Ive lived in Blackwood,Camden,Gloucester City,Cherry Hill and Collingswood (up and down the economic scale!! LOL).
In PA Im a South Philly girl at heart but lived also in West Philly,Upper Darby/Broomall and Bethlehem.

If it wasnt for Greta I wouldnt have heard ANY national coverage of this!!!


WHERE ARE THESE BOYS?????

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

From how it sounds, they werent outside alone. Someone (an aunt?) stated she was with them, but turned her back for a minute and they were gone.The kids were playing in a fenced side yard. The parents had been standing around outside the front of the house, (within sight of the yard), chatting with neighbors. One parent went inside for as long as five minutes. The other adults were chatting with their backs to the yard. That's when the children disappeared.

I could be mistaken but this is the story as I understand it as it's reported on the local news. It was broad daylight, and the kids were playing behind the backs of their parents in a gated yard. So even though the parents weren't exactly "watching" the kids, they were outside with them. The kids are said to be "responsible" and know their boundaries, etc., so I imagine that the adults never expected that these kids would quietly slip away with the adults only yards away.

The mothers and fathers, (and in one case a little sister), were on the news barely able to speak through their sobbing, asking for help and prayers to find their kids. I think that you're right, Timex ... this isn't a case of the parents not keeping their kids safe.

[lady-eowyn]

I came on here this morning hoping for some good news....I guess not :(

It's like the disappeared without a trace...and the river seems the most likely scenario. But what if they don't find them in the river? What then? What if someone DID snatch them and they are concentrating on the river and losing precious time?

[luthersmama]

HOURS from Allentown!!!!!! I dont know who said 45 minutes but thats wayyyy off.




I would say that you can get from Camden to Allentown in just about an hour, depending on traffic.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Gloucester is still really rough and not a nice place (the Klan isstill strong there).
Everyone blames the factories shutting down but it was rough before then.

The town was in the Gunniness book of world records for having the most bars per capita.There is literally at least one bar on every street.

Its a rough,working class drinking town.

Camden is right next door and it is straight up ghetto-actually beyond ghetto.Its a war zone.Its full of gangs and crackhouses and everything that comes with it.It makes So.Central look like The Hamptons hence my questioning of why these boys were not being watched.

Like I said Time magaizine named it "The Worst City In The World".Im from the area so thats why Im digressing into this..........Klan as in Ku Klux Klan??? I've lived in this area all of my 35 years, and I have NEVER heard even ONE story of the Klan in New Jersey. Maybe they have some idiotic teenage boys with crew cuts running around, claiming to be skinheads in Gloucester but I don't believe it about the Klan. Gloucester is simply an urban area with a lot of people that can't afford to live anywhere else. They have their share of morons but there are mostly good but poor people living there.

Also, is Camden the worst city in the world? I read that it was the most dangerous city in America. I could be wrong because I didn't see the Time Magazine article. Yes, Camden was named the most dangerous city but that was also data from years ago. They earned the title for 2002, I thought. As for 2005, as of April, they were well below the crime rate for 2004.

A lot of money has been put into the city recently. The Waterfront has been built up, and contains the Tweeter Center where I myself have seen many shows including Pearl Jam, Van's Warped Tour, The Curiosa Festival (The Cure, Interpol, and others), and Trans-Siberian Orchestra, (so as you can see it's not just small, local artists). They also added an aquarium years ago that just reopened within the past couple of months after a major expansion/renovation. There is a RiverLine ferry system that goes back and forth between Camden and Center City Philadelphia. The Waterfront looks outstanding. I think that it takes time to see the benefits of that revenue. With the stats from the beginning of this year, maybe those benefits are starting to show themselves.

BTW, it was said that the neighborhood from which the kids disappeared is not as bad as most in Camden. Someone referred to it as Camden's suburb. Even in the worst parts of Camden, there are businesses, schools, etc. Yes, it's very bad. But it's still not as if every house is boarded up, and there are bullets flying down the streets during daylight. Even in Camden, the kids play outside during the day. And I mean no disrespect, messiecake, but there is no way that this little city is worse than South Central, IMO. They're both bad but Camden isn't so bad as to make So. Central look like the Hamptons. I don't think so anyway. I'm a chicken, and if Camden was THAT bad, I wouldn't go there to see shows! :)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I will still pray for a good outcome but hope is dimming. :( They are just so young, much younger than the Hawkins boy. Kids just move so fast!

It seems the parents started searching right away. Maybe the kids walked between houses and stuff, making it difficult to see them.The parents did start searching right away but it was said on the news last night that police weren't notified until 9 P.M. That's 3 and a half hours after they disappeared!

When my oldest was about 6, and we still lived in a row home in Philly, she had a friend sleep over. The three of us were on the front porch along with my son one night, talking to neighbors. The girls said that they were going in to change into their nightgowns. At around the same time, my husband took a quick run to a local store 24 hour store. The girls were in the house for about five minutes when I decided to check on them. I went in, and the kids weren't there. I ran out back - they weren't in the yard, I knocked on my parents' door right next door and the kids weren't there. I ran back out front to ask my neighbors if the kids had come back out. When they said that they hadn't, I called the police. You can all probably see where I'm going with this. It turns out that my husband took them with him to the store but for some reason, didn't think it would be necessary to mention it to me because the girls said that they had told me. (It turns out they didn't because they were worried that I wouldn't let them go because it was dark out and they perceived it as being late.) When they drove down the street, there were five police cars in front of my house. It took me probably about 5 minutes to call the police, and that was about 10 minutes after I had last seen them. Why, oh why, do people wait so long???

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I would say that you can get from Camden to Allentown in just about an hour, depending on traffic.It is 50 miles. How Far is It (http://www.indo.com/cgi-bin/dist?place1=Camden%2C+New+Jersey&place2=Allentown%2C+Pennsylvania)

[christine2448]

The parents did start searching right away but it was said on the news last night that police weren't notified until 9 P.M. That's 3 and a half hours after they disappeared!

When my oldest was about 6, and we still lived in a row home in Philly, she had a friend sleep over. The three of us were on the front porch along with my son one night, talking to neighbors. The girls said that they were going in to change into their nightgowns. At around the same time, my husband took a quick run to a local store 24 hour store. The girls were in the house for about five minutes when I decided to check on them. I went in, and the kids weren't there. I ran out back - they weren't in the yard, I knocked on my parents' door right next door and the kids weren't there. I ran back out front to ask my neighbors if the kids had come back out. When they said that they hadn't, I called the police. You can all probably see where I'm going with this. It turns out that my husband took them with him to the store but for some reason, didn't think it would be necessary to mention it to me because the girls said that they had told me. (It turns out they didn't because they were worried that I wouldn't let them go because it was dark out and they perceived it as being late.) When they drove down the street, there were five police cars in front of my house. It took me probably about 5 minutes to call the police, and that was about 10 minutes after I had last seen them. Why, oh why, do people wait so long???
Heeeellllo! No kidding Jersey! I don't understand either. What does it hurt to call right away, if it's a mistake and the kids show up, like in your case, all is good. When it comes to our children, better safe then sorry, EVERY SECOND COUNTS!

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Heeeellllo! No kidding Jersey! I don't understand either. What does it hurt to call right away, if it's a mistake and the kids show up, like in your case, all is good. When it comes to our children, better safe then sorry, EVERY SECOND COUNTS!And you know what? I was so apologetic afterwards, (while screaming at my husband for not telling me himself), and the police said exactly that. They said that they'd rather come early for a false alarm than to come too late when it's an actual situation.

[Trino]

[QUOTE=Searching census reports from the early 1900's, those row homes were rental units way back then. They still stand today, being rented out. The slum lords are at fault and I wonder who just owns that those bug infested dumps.[/QUOTE]

I live in St. Paul, and we have row houses from the same era, although they have been kept up very well. For a while St. Paul was also on the decline but has been revitalized. I think the blame should be on city officials who have allowed this city to erode to such a horrible state.

[ShowerSinger]

Prayers for the boys and their families. I'm scared sick for them. Some of these posts really got me thinking. Our own backyards being war zones? It gave me quite a wake-up call. I'm in a small town, but our country is in turmoil, if you get lost on a backstreet, and it's considered too dangerous. Where is LE? We need to reclaim all of our neighborhoods.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think the blame should be on city officials who have allowed this city to erode to such a horrible state.AMEN. To generate revenue, they continue to hand out liquor license after liquor license, and then wonder when the whole thing starts to spiral out of control.

[Mygirlsadie]

HOURS from Allentown!!!!!! I dont know who said 45 minutes but thats wayyyy off.

Let's see in NJ Ive lived in Blackwood,Camden,Gloucester City,Cherry Hill and Collingswood (up and down the economic scale!! LOL).
In PA Im a South Philly girl at heart but lived also in West Philly,Upper Darby/Broomall and Bethlehem.

If it wasnt for Greta I wouldnt have heard ANY national coverage of this!!!


WHERE ARE THESE BOYS?????
Oh ok just wondering because this is where my hubby is from and his area is really pretty bad I don't feel safe there at all when we go visit. But anyway on another note these boys were/are babies more attention needs to be focusing on this! I follow all the cases that I hear about because I guess I am just nosey but when its about little people thats when my heart gets sick. I have 2 little boys and I have to watch them like a hawk boys are so adventurous they love to wander and chase bugs or whatever it is they like to do I just hope something didnt lure these 3 by the water and they fell in. I pray to God these guys are found safe and unharmed.

[Beyond Belief]

I am so upset they haven't found them by now. I thought they would have them by the second days afternoon. Three adventurous little boys with their whole lives ahead of them. I am so afraid of the Delaware River. I remember how rough that was, with its swift tides.

We are praying here in Florida for a happy ending.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Breaking News - CourierPostOnline (http://www.courierpostonline.com/1119625776.html)

The search for three missing Camden boys has been expanded into Philadelphia, where the father of one of the boys lives, police said today...

It's rare for three children from different families to be abducted at one time, Lynch said today's morning news conference. He said that police are interviewing sex offenders who live in the area. Police, Lynch said, are searching the area "very thoroughly," including swimming pools and along the Delaware River, and reviewing surveillance tapes from area businesses...

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Nation -- Search for three missing boys in New Jersey resumes (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20050624-0701-missingchildren.html)



Massive search resumes in hunt for three missing boys: South Florida Sun-Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/ny-bc-nj--missingchildren0624jun24,0,3909483.story?coll=sfla-newsnation-front)



News | canada.com network (http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=744a2619-5d4c-451c-8d22-d0845f2810f9)

[Beyond Belief]

[QUOTE=Searching census reports from the early 1900's, those row homes were rental units way back then. They still stand today, being rented out. The slum lords are at fault and I wonder who just owns that those bug infested dumps.
I live in St. Paul, and we have row houses from the same era, although they have been kept up very well. For a while St. Paul was also on the decline but has been revitalized. I think the blame should be on city officials who have allowed this city to erode to such a horrible state.[/QUOTE]
Back in the late 80's parts of Camden was being worked on. They had actually knocked the tops off alot of the houses, it looked like a war zone. I haven't seen that area since so I don't know how that part turned out, but they were trying. I think I read that the actual city only covers 9 miles, the area the kids are from is called Cramer Hill and was away from the city. The town Jesstin is from is a great little town. Its a mile square and you get to know everyone in the town. I lived there from the day I was born until I was 19. I loved it there and had a great childhood. I go back every five years and the same families are living in the same houses. I guess that will start changing now that I finally got old:boohoo: .

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

They've also been talking about putting up high-rise luxury suites on the Camden waterfront. The last I heard, there was some legal wrangling going on so I don't know what stage that's in at this point but you're right ... they definitely are trying to revitalize the area.

[Beyond Belief]

They've also been talking about putting up high-rise luxury suites on the Camden waterfront. The last I heard, there was some legal wrangling going on so I don't know what stage that's in at this point but you're right ... they definitely are trying to revitalize the area.
That would be wonderful. Philadelphia made their side great! I would love to explore the areas of Camden.

[christine2448]

Breaking News - CourierPostOnline (http://www.courierpostonline.com/1119625776.html)

The search for three missing Camden boys has been expanded into Philadelphia, where the father of one of the boys lives, police said today...

It's rare for three children from different families to be abducted at one time, Lynch said today's morning news conference. He said that police are interviewing sex offenders who live in the area. Police, Lynch said, are searching the area "very thoroughly," including swimming pools and along the Delaware River, and reviewing surveillance tapes from area businesses...
Very interesting, thanks for posting all the news links Jersey.

[Beyond Belief]

My 83 yr old mother who grew up in Camden, makes the suggestion maybe they got picked up by a boat?


My mother's opinion.

[Mygirlsadie]

Very interesting, thanks for posting all the news links Jersey.
Yes thanks for posting that..2 of the families were just on the news pleading for their sons but the mother of the 11 yr old wasnt there and that would be the one who has the father in Philly..I really hope he is just one of them dads who is a butthole and took the kids but they are safe! This is just a thought but to me would be the best outcome to this story

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Yes thanks for posting that..2 of the families were just on the news pleading for their sons but the mother of the 11 yr old wasnt there and that would be the one who has the father in Philly..I really hope he is just one of them dads who is a butthole and took the kids but they are safe! This is just a thought but to me would be the best outcome to this storyI second that. Here's hoping that a dad has them!

And you're welcome for the links. I'll keep you posted on what the local media is saying whenever it's something new. This evening they said that there is now a $9,000 reward, and that the search today has been checking a local dump and sewers. Apparently there's an area that's only accessible by ATV's and such but it's known that "people" like to hang out back there. So they went there as well just to make sure that no one's back there. Here are some links:

Breaking News - CourierPostOnline (http://www.courierpostonline.com/1119641946.html)

A $9,000 reward is being offered for information about the disappearance two days ago of three city boys...

Lynch said the Camden Police attempted to call in an Amber Alert at 3 a.m. Thursday morning, but it was denied because it did not meet the criteria. State police said today that an Amber Alert can only be issued if there is definitive evidence of an abduction.

The mothers of all three boys spoke at the press conference, making tear-filled pleas to anyone who knows where there sons are...

KBCI 2 Boise, Idaho (http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5155&ContentID=x51828&Layout=KBCI.xsl&AdGroupID=x5154&URL=http://localhost/apwirefeed/d8au5psg0.xml&NewsSection=NationalHeadlines)

... Police are searching both the Camden and Philadelphia sides of the Delaware River for the boys. But so far, they say they have no leads as to the whereabouts of the boys, ages five, six and eleven...
The mother of one boy, five-year-old Jesstin Pagan, said "We love you. We want you back. We're not mad at you. Please come back."

And to anyone who might have him, she begged, "please let him go."

About 150 law enforcement officials are using boats, helicopters, all-terrain vehicles and tracking dogs in the search.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com FeedRoom (http://nbc10.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=55085) (Mother's pleas during press conference. First portion in Spanish but is translated immediately afterwards.)

Info: Call police at 856-757-7400 if you have information
Reward: Call the Crime Commission at 877-345-tips or 215-546-tips
Donate To Reward Fund:
The Citizen's Crime Commission Of Delaware Valley
1218 Chestnut Street, Suite 406, Philadelphia, PA 19107

[mysteriew]

I keep seeing in the articles that the three boys couldn't go "that far' or wouldn't go that far. They should take a lesson from the little boy scout that was located. Little boys can go a long way, and a lot faster than most people think. They should widen their search area.
Still all things considered, this is not out in the boonies somewhere. This is a town or city. It is hard to believe that no one has seen the boys in all this time.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC 10 Philadelphia just reported that LE is now saying that the boys may have been abducted based on the fact that they are 3 young boys that haven't been seen in 48 hours. The belief is that they would have been found or at least spotted by now if they had gone off on their own.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

News just reported that police are looking for a man named Angel Martinez. He is allegedly being sought as a "witness".

[Mygirlsadie]

News just reported that police are looking for a man named Angel Martinez. He is allegedly being sought as a "witness".
Thanks again JerseyGirl..sounds like they may be onto something Been trying to watch it on the news here but its mainly only showing Natalee and a fire in St Louis

[PrayersForMaura]

it's been quite a long time since i was a child, so forgive my ignorance here.... but do 6 year ols often play with 11 year olds? Were they just all close neighbors or something?

I hope if they were abducted that none of them have been hurt... :(

[Timex]

it's been quite a long time since i was a child, so forgive my ignorance here.... but do 6 year ols often play with 11 year olds? Were they just all close neighbors or something?

I hope if they were abducted that none of them have been hurt... :(
the 11 year old doesnt have the mental abilities of an 11 year old, from what Ive heard. He is more on the younger kids level.

[nvfc]

All three have been found dead in a trunk of the parents car and at the home of the parents house. It sounds like a freak accident, but I wonder why all three would be in the trunk, not playing I would not think.

[christine2448]

All three have been found dead in a trunk of the parents car and at the home of the parents house.OMG just saw it on Fox, right at the same house they "disappeared" from.

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! Found in the trunk of a car......I am crying. Heartbroken. At a loss at how the dogs tracked them to the delaware river, when they were right there!!!!!!!!

OMG, lesson learned people!!!!! Check everywhere, EVERYWHERE! They could have been saved.

How come they didn't bang on the trunk lid?????? (the children) How could they not have been found??????

Was this an accident? OMG, I am in shock right now!

[VespaElf]

Klan as in Ku Klux Klan??? I've lived in this area all of my 35 years, and I have NEVER heard even ONE story of the Klan in New Jersey. Maybe they have some idiotic teenage boys with crew cuts running around, claiming to be skinheads in Gloucester but I don't believe it about the Klan. Gloucester is simply an urban area with a lot of people that can't afford to live anywhere else. They have their share of morons but there are mostly good but poor people living there.

Also, is Camden the worst city in the world? I read that it was the most dangerous city in America. I could be wrong because I didn't see the Time Magazine article. Yes, Camden was named the most dangerous city but that was also data from years ago. They earned the title for 2002, I thought. As for 2005, as of April, they were well below the crime rate for 2004.

A lot of money has been put into the city recently. The Waterfront has been built up, and contains the Tweeter Center where I myself have seen many shows including Pearl Jam, Van's Warped Tour, The Curiosa Festival (The Cure, Interpol, and others), and Trans-Siberian Orchestra, (so as you can see it's not just small, local artists). They also added an aquarium years ago that just reopened within the past couple of months after a major expansion/renovation. There is a RiverLine ferry system that goes back and forth between Camden and Center City Philadelphia. The Waterfront looks outstanding. I think that it takes time to see the benefits of that revenue. With the stats from the beginning of this year, maybe those benefits are starting to show themselves.

BTW, it was said that the neighborhood from which the kids disappeared is not as bad as most in Camden. Someone referred to it as Camden's suburb. Even in the worst parts of Camden, there are businesses, schools, etc. Yes, it's very bad. But it's still not as if every house is boarded up, and there are bullets flying down the streets during daylight. Even in Camden, the kids play outside during the day. And I mean no disrespect, messiecake, but there is no way that this little city is worse than South Central, IMO. They're both bad but Camden isn't so bad as to make So. Central look like the Hamptons. I don't think so anyway. I'm a chicken, and if Camden was THAT bad, I wouldn't go there to see shows! :)



I guess the nearly YEARLY Klan march down braodway in Glouscester is a figment of my imagination? :rolleyes:


South NJ is a hot bed of INTERNATIONAL "white power"/nazi activity.
One of the WORLD'S most well known "white power" bands is from Jersey and many racist people travel from as far away as Austraila and Holland to attend "aryan fests" held in the Pine's.
I worked for and with the ADL and let me tell you wouldnt belive the racist activity that is going on this second in Jersey.
The Klan has been in Jersey since the 60's and racist skinhead activity has been going strong since the early 80's.
"White power" music/literature is a multi million dollar business and the #1 American distributor is based in ,of all places,Cherry Hill.
Just because YOU dont see doesnt mean it doesnt exsist just as just because YOU dont have a problem going to Camden doesnt mean heres not drugs,crime and poverty there.The Tower Theatre in Upper Darby,Pa has lots of great shows and Ive never had a problem but does that mean I feel safe on 69th street or would I move with my kids there.

[Timex]

This doesnt make sense.

How did they get in the trunk? Was it open? Did they have keys?

Why didnt the dogs find them?

Why didnt they hear the parents calling out for them?

Why didnt anyone hear them calling out for help?

[nvfc]

How these kids were in a trunk and not supervised andthis happening just after Trinity Casey last week, it is summer time and parents please pay more attention to your children. Watch you children and do not leave them alone around water or in a parked car.

[christine2448]

I guess the nearly YEARLY Klan march down braodway in Glouscester is a figment of my imagination? :rolleyes:


South NJ is a hot bed of INTERNATIONAL "white power"/nazi activity.
One of the WORLD'S most well known "white power" bands is from Jersey and many racist people travel from as far away as Austraila and Holland to attend "aryan fests" held in the Pine's.
I worked for and with the ADL and let me tell you wouldnt belive the racist activity that is going on this second in Jersey.
The Klan has been in Jersey since the 60's and racist skinhead activity has been going strong since the early 80's.
"White power" music/literature is a multi million dollar business and the #1 American distributor is based in ,of all places,Cherry Hill.
Just because YOU dont see doesnt mean it doesnt exsist just as just because YOU dont have a problem going to Camden doesnt mean heres not drugs,crime and poverty there.The Tower Theatre in Upper Darby,Pa has lots of great shows and Ive never had a problem but does that mean I feel safe on 69th street or would I move with my kids there.

Right now I am reeling over the deaths of these children....then I saw your post and for a second it took my mind away...I grew up and South Jersey and never knew of any of what you speak of...WOW, never saw an Klan crap, never heard of any of it...grew up in So Philly, So Jersey areas, mom worked in Cherry Hill for years and years, and never heard of Klan, lots of Mafia, LOL, but no Klan....very interesting....I live in the South now and the prejudice is something I never experienced, the tension between black and white is new for me, like I said, spent 16 yrs in Jersey and never heard of Klan or any difference between blacks and whites, first experiences were moving to GA.

Now, again, I go back to this children....WHAT THE HECK, HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?????????????

[christine2448]

How these kids were in a trunk and not supervised andthis happening just after Trinity Casey last week, it is summer time and parents please pay more attention to your children. Watch you children and do not leave them alone around water or in a parked car.
I just don't see nvfc how they weren't heard, how they just died there, without a fight, without noise, I am confused.

[christine2448]

This doesnt make sense.

How did they get in the trunk? Was it open? Did they have keys?

Why didnt the dogs find them?

Why didnt they hear the parents calling out for them?

Why didnt anyone hear them calling out for help?
MY EXACT THOUGHTS TIMEX....my thoughts...how how how how how

[Sassygerl]

Is it possible it was a car where you can crawl through to the trunk and somehow they couldn't come back through??? My husbands car is like this, but you can come back through, although I don't know about other vehicles were you can access the trunk from the back seat....don't know if somehow you can't get back.

Soooooooo sad.....and right there at the house????? I'm shocked no one would think to look there...and there were dogs????? :( :( :(

[Timex]

Is it possible it was a car where you can crawl through to the trunk and somehow they couldn't come back through??? My husbands car is like this, but you can come back through, although I don't know about other vehicles were you can access the trunk from the back seat....don't know if somehow you can't get back.

Soooooooo sad.....and right there at the house????? I'm shocked no one would think to look there...and there were dogs????? :( :( :(
They brought in scent dogs to look for them...I just dont get it

[christine2448]

They brought in scent dogs to look for them...I just dont get it
Unbelievable, I am at a loss, unbelievable!

[lady-eowyn]

Oh no!!! :(

I always remember when my kids were young thinking that the first places to check when kids go missing were closets, refrigerators and cars....how could all three have gotten in there and went unnoticed? Where they trying to hide I wonder?

Bless these families hearts....

[nvfc]

The parked car warning I made had to do with young kids being left in a hot parked car.

Trunks are easy to open from inside the vehicle, the kids would not have needed keys, they could lift a lever by the side of the seat.

There has to be more to this than just a freak accident but I would think if there was any fowl play involved that the news would be all over it.

FOX news just said no fowl play!

[lady-eowyn]

I am beginning to lose faith in these dogs....first they missed Jessica, now they missed these boys...I know they are not infallible, but it seems this year their batting average is way down.

[CaliMom]

Oh my goodness. I just saw this breaking news on FoxNews and came right here. I am SO sad. I just don't understand how they weren't heard right away.

[Sassygerl]

The parked car warning I made had to do with young kids being left in a hot parked car.

Trunks are easy to open from inside the vehicle, the kids would not have needed keys, they could lift a lever by the side of the seat.

There has to be more to this than just a freak accident but I would think if there was any fowl play involved that the news would be all over it.

FOX news just said no fowl play!

I'm from Texas, and this is not something that is unheard of. I have a feeling they were hiding/playing.

I'm waiting to hear what kind of car it was and year. It looked like an older model.....and I don't think many kids know how to open the trunk from inside in darkness anyway, unless they had been specifically taught how to do so, which is doubtful.

[englishleigh]

This doesnt make sense.

How did they get in the trunk? Was it open? Did they have keys?

Why didnt the dogs find them?

Why didnt they hear the parents calling out for them?

Why didnt anyone hear them calling out for help?


My grandfather just called to tell me they found them dead. :*( He and I have the same questions.

[WindChime]

the father opened the trunk and found them and the father fell to his knees.

[lady-eowyn]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160672,00.html

AMDEN, N.J. — Three boys who disappeared Wednesday and were the subject of a massive search effort were found dead Friday in the trunk of a car parked in a driveway next to the yard where they were last seen. The bodies of Jesstin Pagan, 5; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11, were discovered shortly before 7 p.m. by the father of one of the boys.



I can't imagine being that father :(

[WindChime]

in the trunk of a car parked right next to the home no one had checked in the trunk when the father opened the trunk up and saw the boys he fell to his knees .

[Trino]

If someone was with the boys and turned their backs for just a few minutes, I don't see how this could have happened. You would think someone would have heard the boys calling, which I'm guessing they did. I'm guessing the boys were left alone much longer than someone is admitting.

[Sassygerl]

It's said to be a Toyota.....oh this is so sad :(

That poor father who opened the trunk and fell to his knees....OMG I can't even imagine! The mother is bound to need help....she will have so much guilt knowing they were RIGHT there and she was more than likely combing the neighborhood.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families.....what a tragedy.

[audrey77]

News here said that it was a car (supposedly searched) behind the property that the house is on. They were found in the trunk when the father was investigating a smell.

[TKSands]

This is just awful! I'm at a loss for words!!

[VespaElf]

Im speechless..............those poor little boys!!!!!

Im also stunned and also ask how???

[audrey77]

They showed the first officer on the scene... it was a older model Toyota Camry- red or marron- with a college school sticker on the window.

They later moved a NJ Transit bus in front of the scene to block the cameras, and errected some tarps and sheets.

[BldWhtRose]

Was this a case of the boys getting in and playing and then locked in ? OR was this a case of someone putting them in there ? Does anyone know ? I hope the police investigate, just to be sure ! How Sad.

[fran]

This is tragic. My heart goes out to these families.

fran

[Beyond Belief]

They brought in scent dogs to look for them...I just dont get itI don't get it either, unless they were not cadaver dogs. Maybe they didn't even use them in the yard.

[mysteriew]

The only way I can think of is the kids decided to hide. They saw the aunt go into the house and crawled into the car trunk. While waiting to be found they got bored and fell asleep. With the hotter weather, they probably never woke up.
So sad for these families. They will have so many guilt feelings. I would have thought that someone would have thought to search the trunk. But when you are trying to think of everywhere to look, I guess you can be excused for forgetting one place.

[Beyond Belief]

My heart is broken. I am so sorry for the parents, I saw how much they loved those kids. The little devils must have been hiding from them. Who would have ever thought?

Prayers for the family and friends.

[RPPaolin]

My heart is breaking for these families. God Bless Them.

[mysteriew]

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MIA2180/


The bodies were discovered shortly before 7 p.m. by the father of one of the boys. It was not immediately clear how the boys got into the vehicle or whether foul play was involved.

[Jovin]

It's said to be a Toyota.....oh this is so sad :(

That poor father who opened the trunk and fell to his knees....OMG I can't even imagine! The mother is bound to need help....she will have so much guilt knowing they were RIGHT there and she was more than likely combing the neighborhood.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families.....what a tragedy.

It showed the father opening the trunk and all the people screaming and crying and he's jumping around....how did they happen to just be filming that??? I don't think having a video camera on the yard at that time would just be something I was thinking about two days later.

[ewwwinteresting]

The only way I can think of is the kids decided to hide. They saw the aunt go into the house and crawled into the car trunk. While waiting to be found they got bored and fell asleep. With the hotter weather, they probably never woke up.
So sad for these families. They will have so many guilt feelings. I would have thought that someone would have thought to search the trunk. But when you are trying to think of everywhere to look, I guess you can be excused for forgetting one place.
Who would have thought? I don't remember one poster here saying, "I hope they are looking in all of the trunks of the car." That thought never crossed my mind. You just have to feel for the families and their great loss at this time.

[Sassygerl]

I don't get it either, unless they were not cadaver dogs. Maybe they didn't even use them in the yard.

My thought is that their scent was all over the area, so no hits. I don't know when the dogs were brought in, if they brought them in quickly or not, but in any case it's just so sad. :(

I will pray for these families....to know your child was right there and you had no idea...how horrible.

[Jovin]

I just realized I posted a stupid comment...I'm sure that whoever was videotaping that scene must have been a local tv station or something....sorry...

Also..it would just be second nature, you'd think.....to check all the cars and the trunks, any outside sheds and stuff. I can't believe the police didn't do this. They're trained, and the parents are under such stress that they might not think of this, but the police are going to be in hot water over this, you can be sure!

[Sassygerl]

It showed the father opening the trunk and all the people screaming and crying and he's jumping around....how did they happen to just be filming that??? I don't think having a video camera on the yard at that time would just be something I was thinking about two days later.

I was outside and missed that. I don't know why a camera was out there either...was it media???...although I must admit I'm glad I'm missed seeing it. The visual I have is a bad one already....:(

In Texas the cars are one of the first places checked, only because it's happened too many times where kids get in the car to play and end up dying because of the heat. We've already had a story or two of kids left on daycare vans/buses who have fallen asleep and the driver didn't notice. What was the temp that day in NJ...anyone know????

[Sassygerl]

I just realized I posted a stupid comment...I'm sure that whoever was videotaping that scene must have been a local tv station or something....sorry...

Also..it would just be second nature, you'd think.....to check all the cars and the trunks, any outside sheds and stuff. I can't believe the police didn't do this. They're trained, and the parents are under such stress that they might not think of this, but the police are going to be in hot water over this, you can be sure!

You never post anything stupid! I had the same thought when I read your post, but then assumed it had to be media. Something they really should NOT play IMO.

[ewwwinteresting]

:laugh: I just realized I posted a stupid comment...I'm sure that whoever was videotaping that scene must have been a local tv station or something....sorry...

Also..it would just be second nature, you'd think.....to check all the cars and the trunks, any outside sheds and stuff. I can't believe the police didn't do this. They're trained, and the parents are under such stress that they might not think of this, but the police are going to be in hot water over this, you can be sure!
It will be interesting to see what comes out. What and where they did search. It seems like they thought this could have been an abduction. So sad, it seems like it turned out that boys were just being boys and playing, hiding and no one thought about that!

[sassy_texasbelle2]

Hold those families close please God they are going to need your strength more than we can even imagine.We have three new angels in heaven. I cannot even begin to understand their loss.

[Jovin]

It must have been hot..because I know we're experiencing heat today and tomorrow on this coast....poor little kids. I'm sure they were probably hiding.

I have a 1992 Toyota Tercel and it has the seats that are called 60/40, and you can pull the back seat forward (in two sections) and bring them down to make the trunk larger or whatever....they could have gotten into the trunk this way, and pulled the seats back..they automatically lock into place, and there'd be no way they could release them, as far as I know.

[PrayersForMaura]

oh my goodness! I would've never thought hide and seek :( This is terrible!
I always heard about old refrigerators and making sure those get locked up or children could suffocate in there but i never thought of a car trunk :(

I bet since the parents were otuside talking, maybe the kids thought it would be fun to hide from their parents!! Maybe they thought mom and dad would come looking for them an open the trunk and then they just lost their breath?

This is horrible. I am praying for their families right now.

[Jovin]

You never post anything stupid! I had the same thought when I read your post, but then assumed it had to be media. Something they really should NOT play IMO.

I'm very flattered that you think so, Sassy..but I did feel stupid after reading it and thinking about it. It's so easy for us to sit back and criticize others, when we weren't in that situation, and THANK GOD I hope that we never are!

I'm sure people understand how we react out of pure emotion also on the gruesome finding of these little boys. I can't even think of how hard this is going to be on all those who had to see this.

I pray for them so much. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/JesusBibleJovin-vi.gif

[JDB]

All: i ahve a feeling the boys just climbed in and the trunk closed. This is a godd reminder all about even Refrigators. Please if you have an old one take the doors off . I have heard of to many kids thinking it is a playtoy to hide in.
As far as cars this is why new models have an inside release .
But neither here no there my heart breaks for the parents.

[Sassygerl]

It must have been hot..because I know we're experiencing heat today and tomorrow on this coast....poor little kids. I'm sure they were probably hiding.

I have a 1992 Toyota Tercel and it has the seats that are called 60/40, and you can pull the back seat forward (in two sections) and bring them down to make the trunk larger or whatever....they could have gotten into the trunk this way, and pulled the seats back..they automatically lock into place, and there'd be no way they could release them, as far as I know.

That's what I was thinking Jovin.....the quick release pulls weren't put into cars until the past few years that I am aware of. I have taught my kids how to pull the electrical wires, etc. to mess with the tail lights in case they were ever in a trunk, in a RUNNING car, and we've talked about latches for release, but you never know what kind or year of car they might be in.

ETA: my post just made me realize we need to have a lesson hands on.....it's like my DH telling me how to change a tire...I've never actually done it hands on, but think I know how to change a tire because he's told me how. I do however, know how to shoot a gun! That is something I've done hands on!

[tennessee]

How sad! This is so heartbreaking. I can't even imagine.

[IdahoMom]

OMG.:( Poor babies. :( My heart is broken for the parents.:(

Too, too sad. :(

[Jovin]

Sassy, if the car had been running..and if they knew enough to pull wires, it could have saved them. It's so hard at times like this to believe that God is always there for us...you question why it happened, and why these little children had to suffer, but it's the question that we'll never get an answer to until we meet our Maker.

I just don't know how those people will ever sleep again, or go out into that yard! I just don't understand how a mother or father ever learns to cope with this tragic type of episode, especially when they stay at the same residence.

Didn't Mark Lunsford's parents still stay in their same place...maybe he moved in with his girlfriend elsewhere, but how sad for the grandparents to have to look across the road and see where the little girl had been found...and to feel responsible for not checking the door that night!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/HandsofGod.jpg

[sassy_texasbelle2]

All: i ahve a feeling the boys just climbed in and the trunk closed. This is a godd reminder all about even Refrigators. Please if you have an old one take the doors off . I have heard of to many kids thinking it is a playtoy to hide in.
As far as cars this is why new models have an inside release .
But neither here no there my heart breaks for the parents.
Don't you think it is odd that LE would not have checked the car trunks the first thing knowing the way kids will hide. It is so tragic.

[Sassygerl]

Sassy, if the car had been running..and if they knew enough to pull wires, it could have saved them. It's so hard at times like this to believe that God is always there for us...you question why it happened, and why these little children had to suffer, but it's the question that we'll never get an answer to until we meet our Maker.

I just don't know how those people will ever sleep again, or go out into that yard! I just don't understand how a mother or father ever learns to cope with this tragic type of episode, especially when they stay at the same residence.

Didn't Mark Lunsford's parents still stay in their same place...maybe he moved in with his girlfriend elsewhere, but how sad for the grandparents to have to look across the road and see where the little girl had been found...and to feel responsible for not checking the door that night!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Jovin43/HandsofGod.jpg

What a sweet pic you posted. Yes, we often wonder why.....I do feel for the families....I've often thought of the Lundsfords as well. I, personally, would have to move. If we didn't have the means I would figure a way, or stay with friends/family until I could move. But then I don't know that I would want to move...I'd want their bedrooms to be able to go into. I pray I will never had to make such a decision.

[JDB]

Don't you think it is odd that LE would not have checked the car trunks the first thing knowing the way kids will hide. It is so tragic.
Not really odd. In today's world sadly the first thing all of us think is kidnapped.

[BldWhtRose]

One of the mothers, the 6 year old boys Mom, was inside taking a nap, who lets their children GO PLAY , when they are inside sleeping , NOT me , not ever, I know a lot of things can happen, and could even happen to me/my kids/family, but I am paranoid enough about abductions when I am awake and let my kids play in their own yard ONLY, I certainly would not GO TO SLEEP and not care that my child, especially a 6 year old... was outside.... ALONE ???? What are people thinking ?

[sassy_texasbelle2]

Not really odd. In today's world sadly the first thing all of us think is kidnapped.
Yes, you are correct sadly we cannot live in the days anymore of maybe a child playing some innocent game and could not get out of a trunk. Thank you.

[christine2448]

I came on here when the news first broke, we have been following this here at websleuths, all hoping, then the news broke...I came on to say the news about the boys being found....I was, and am heartsick, I couldn't stop crying, called my mom in NJ (this is where I grew up)...she was crying......then they show on Fox the video of the man, nonchantley opening the truck, then FREAKING out, and the pandamonium (sp? sorry if spelling is off) following what he must have seen, I can't believe it, the video was so 'like you are there' and the grief, unbearable. I first thought how, why, when, could this be, but it is, and I am at a loss for how the family/friends must be feeling. Seeing that video, of the discovery, overwhelming.....I won't sleep tonight.

[Beyond Belief]

My thought is that their scent was all over the area, so no hits. I don't know when the dogs were brought in, if they brought them in quickly or not, but in any case it's just so sad. :(

I will pray for these families....to know your child was right there and you had no idea...how horrible.Would a person run out of air in a trunk? I bet they heard them calling and were giggling all over themselves not answering and then the parents left the yard and started looking elsewhere and they couldn't get out. I wonder what made the DAD open the trunk and the vision he saw will haunt him for ever. Gosh, I hope somebody does something to help these families. I hope their churches come to their aid.


i do have just one question about this. It definitely is an area of lower income families. Why are three mothers home and not out working? The kids in our whole area are drug off to daycare because the mothers work. I found that a little off balance.

IMO this is an accident and happened just as has been mentioned, they thought it would be fun to hide, and of course we now know these sad results.

[Et al]

Not really odd. In today's world sadly the first thing all of us think is kidnapped.

Not to make light of this tragedy or to point fingers but, I would think the LE would have looked in EVERY nook and cranny..it's their job. Children have been know to jump in car trunks and refrigerators.

Praying for heaven's three newest :angel: and their families.

[Sassygerl]

i do have just one question about this. It definitely is an area of lower income families. Why are three mothers home and not out working? The kids in our whole area are drug off to daycare because the mothers work. I found that a little off balance.

Maybe they make ends meet and feel it's important to stay home with their children? Sometimes, depending on how many children you have, it's more reasonable to stay home than go to work for minimum wage and pay for daycare. Childcare is expensive, and sometimes, depending on the amount made and how many children you have, you break even, or have to even pay more than you'd make.

Prayers for the families.

[wenchie]

Most trunks don't open without a key, and those that do take a little bit of strength to open.

There are some nasty people in Camden, N.J. This might be more than an accident.

[A.Wood]

I couldnt imagine driving a car around that unknownlingly had kids in the trunk. To be out looking for these kids and for them to be right there....its shocking. This does remind me of an incident that happened in my inlaws home back in the 70's. A boy that lives across the street and some relatives of my father inlaw's were playing hide and go seek....the boy across the street was no where to be found during this game. They ended up finding him in the deep freezer after a lot of searching. I know how those freezers are, you cannot get them open from the inside...its horrible to think about it. My father inlaw and mother inlaw live in this house still and the little boy who died's dad still lives across the street. I dont know if I could stay in the house or even stay in the home across from where my child died. :(

[CaliKid]

I saw the picture of one of the father's and it made me cry. I can't imagine his pain or that of all the families. I hope this was just a tragic accident.

[beach]

I was so saddened to read about this result. My prayers are with them all.

[snoopy]

One of the mothers, the 6 year old boys Mom, was inside taking a nap, who lets their children GO PLAY , when they are inside sleeping , NOT me , not ever, I know a lot of things can happen, and could even happen to me/my kids/family, but I am paranoid enough about abductions when I am awake and let my kids play in their own yard ONLY, I certainly would not GO TO SLEEP and not care that my child, especially a 6 year old... was outside.... ALONE ???? What are people thinking ?


She must have trusted her neighbor/friend to watch her son while she took a nap. I don't think she just told her son to go play while she slept. I'm sure she made prior arrangements.

[Sassygerl]

She must have trusted her neighbor/friend to watch her son while she took a nap. I don't think she just told her son to go play while she slept. I'm sure she made prior arrangements.

Someone fill me in....I haven't heard of anyone taking a nap, I have only heard of the mother who's home the kids were at ran inside to check on the oven...dinner.

[Mygirlsadie]

Would a person run out of air in a trunk? I bet they heard them calling and were giggling all over themselves not answering and then the parents left the yard and started looking elsewhere and they couldn't get out. I wonder what made the DAD open the trunk and the vision he saw will haunt him for ever. Gosh, I hope somebody does something to help these families. I hope their churches come to their aid.


i do have just one question about this. It definitely is an area of lower income families. Why are three mothers home and not out working? The kids in our whole area are drug off to daycare because the mothers work. I found that a little off balance.

IMO this is an accident and happened just as has been mentioned, they thought it would be fun to hide, and of course we now know these sad results.
I don't think the mothers employment status is an issue. Last year was the first time I worked in years due to the fact that I wasnt going to work until my youngest was in school I personally had my children so I will raise them if others wish to let the daycares raise their children then that is fine to each his own but it's not for me.We made ends meet, we couldnt go on vacations or drive new cars ..going out to dinner on payday was about the extent of our pleasures but we were/are happy as H@** .. I don't want to turn this board into a daycare debate I know some ladies believe in having a career and that is great. I am just one who decided to wait until all my kids were in school.These mothers now will have to live with this guilt for the rest of their lives lets just let them grieve thier loss and not worry about what kind of neighborhood they lived in or what kind of job they had. These 3 little guys didnt deserve this but I honestly don't think it was negligence on the mothers part. I'm so sad about this and I just pray to God they didnt suffer.

[lostfaith]

I am beginning to lose faith in these dogs....first they missed Jessica, now they missed these boys...I know they are not infallible, but it seems this year their batting average is way down.

I agree! Dont forget Ray Gricar. I know they are not infallible, as you say, but I guess if I had a loved one missing, at this time, the dogs would not give me much comfort or hope.

[snoopy]

Someone fill me in....I haven't heard of anyone taking a nap, I have only heard of the mother who's home the kids were at ran inside to check on the oven...dinner.

(copied from another poster using a news quote)
Elba Cruz, Anibal's mother, said she was outside with the boys Wednesday and went in for just a few minutes to check on something cooking in her kitchen. When she returned, her son, 6-year-old neighbor Daniel Agosto (search) and 5-year-old friend Jesstin Pagan (search) were missing.

Jesstin Pagan and his mother, Jessica, were visiting the Cruz home from their house in nearby Mount Ephraim.

"I turned my back for two seconds and they were gone," Jessica Pagan said.

Daniel's mother was inside her home across the street napping at the time. "This is the first time for him to leave the block," she said Thursday as she watched police cordon off a nearby wooded area with yellow tape.

[Sassygerl]

(copied from another poster using a news quote)
Elba Cruz, Anibal's mother, said she was outside with the boys Wednesday and went in for just a few minutes to check on something cooking in her kitchen. When she returned, her son, 6-year-old neighbor Daniel Agosto (search) and 5-year-old friend Jesstin Pagan (search) were missing.

Jesstin Pagan and his mother, Jessica, were visiting the Cruz home from their house in nearby Mount Ephraim.

"I turned my back for two seconds and they were gone," Jessica Pagan said.

Daniel's mother was inside her home across the street napping at the time. "This is the first time for him to leave the block," she said Thursday as she watched police cordon off a nearby wooded area with yellow tape.

So the mother who was napping wasn't watching the kids right? She wasn't the one responsible....? Not that I'm placing blame.....I know things can happen in the blink of an eye for sure. I think the kids were playing a game and thought it was funny.....unfortunately it was deadly. No one can watch their kids 24/7...I don't care what anyone says. As mothers we use the bathroom, need to clean the house, make dinner, shower, etc......mine have slipped under foot at times...thankfully nothing bad happened.

[lostfaith]

Maybe they make ends meet and feel it's important to stay home with their children? Sometimes, depending on how many children you have, it's more reasonable to stay home than go to work for minimum wage and pay for daycare. Childcare is expensive, and sometimes, depending on the amount made and how many children you have, you break even, or have to even pay more than you'd make.

Prayers for the families.

Agreed! Damned if you do and damned if you dont! And, about the one mother sleeping....could it be maybe she was napping because she works the night shift, and her and the neighbor her son was playing at had an agreement to watch her son while she napped? So far, this is just a tragic accident, better not to judge unless more info. is released.

[Nore]

I am just sick.God, Bless the little boys and hold them in Your Arms...

[lilpony]

It seems so odd to me, that when they went missing that no one checked cars and trunks. I would think that is one of the first things people would do. Check cars and trunks. Very odd. I hope it is not something more sinister.

[lilpony]

It seems very odd to me, that cars and trunks wouldn't have been searched at the beginning. Very strange, I hope it is not something more sinister. Will wait and see, so strange. How horrible, and sad.:(

[KrazyKollector]

This is just so horrible. I too, would have thought the police or family would have looked everywhere, including all the cars and their trunks. I also think they would have been yelling or hollering. Maybe they ran out of air really quick due to the high temp?

That story just brought me to tears. Three precious little lives gone so quickly.

[snoopy]

So the mother who was napping wasn't watching the kids right? She wasn't the one responsible....? Not that I'm placing blame.....I know things can happen in the blink of an eye for sure. I think the kids were playing a game and thought it was funny.....unfortunately it was deadly. No one can watch their kids 24/7...I don't care what anyone says. As mothers we use the bathroom, need to clean the house, make dinner, shower, etc......mine have slipped under foot at times...thankfully nothing bad happened.

No, the mother who was watching the kids went inside to check on dinner, came back, and they were gone.

I can only imagine the guilt and the blame they are placing on themselves right now. So many "what ifs" must be playing over and over in all their minds!

I just saw a picture of one of the boys hugging a girl, probably his sister. They all look so sweet and so full of life.

[SewingDeb]

It seems very odd to me, that cars and trunks wouldn't have been searched at the beginning. Very strange, I hope it is not something more sinister. Will wait and see, so strange. How horrible, and sad.:(

An article I read today said the car had been searched earlier but it was unknown if anyone had looked in the trunk. Could they have been somewhere else and then put in the trunk?...I guess not since everyone was searching and the media was there, but then you have Couey right across the street in the Lunsford case burying Jessica while the media was in the neighborhood.

[karmarama]

No! that is so sad :(

There was a similar story on Oprah a couple years ago. The kids in that case, had climed in the trunk and couldn't get themselves out :(

My Prayers are with the families.

[lady-eowyn]

Sassy, if the car had been running..and if they knew enough to pull wires, it could have saved them. It's so hard at times like this to believe that God is always there for us...you question why it happened, and why these little children had to suffer, but it's the question that we'll never get an answer to until we meet our Maker.

I just don't know how those people will ever sleep again, or go out into that yard! I just don't understand how a mother or father ever learns to cope with this tragic type of episode, especially when they stay at the same residence.

Didn't Mark Lunsford's parents still stay in their same place...maybe he moved in with his girlfriend elsewhere, but how sad for the grandparents to have to look across the road and see where the little girl had been found...and to feel responsible for not checking the door that night!


Mark is still living at the same place with his parents, although he is rarely home because he is always somewhere pushing for stricter laws on sex offenders. But I have read that he won't move because that was where Jessie was the happiest and it was her last home. I does want that trailer moved/burned/destroyed...but at this point I believe someone else is living in it...:hand:

But I see your point...I can't imagine living near where my child died, whether a tragic accident or murder.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I guess the nearly YEARLY Klan march down braodway in Glouscester is a figment of my imagination? :rolleyes:


South NJ is a hot bed of INTERNATIONAL "white power"/nazi activity.
One of the WORLD'S most well known "white power" bands is from Jersey and many racist people travel from as far away as Austraila and Holland to attend "aryan fests" held in the Pine's.
I worked for and with the ADL and let me tell you wouldnt belive the racist activity that is going on this second in Jersey.
The Klan has been in Jersey since the 60's and racist skinhead activity has been going strong since the early 80's.
"White power" music/literature is a multi million dollar business and the #1 American distributor is based in ,of all places,Cherry Hill.
Just because YOU dont see doesnt mean it doesnt exsist just as just because YOU dont have a problem going to Camden doesnt mean heres not drugs,crime and poverty there.The Tower Theatre in Upper Darby,Pa has lots of great shows and Ive never had a problem but does that mean I feel safe on 69th street or would I move with my kids there.First of all, I didn't say I'd want to live in Camden; I said that it isn't like a war zone, and that it isn't comparable to South Central. There are families living there, and yes, the kids actually play outside. I also did a little research on the Klan in NJ after I read your post. I see that it must not be a "figment of (your) imagination" :waitasec: ). There is Klan membership in NJ. Luckily, illegal Klan "activity" is quite low. I was going to address this, and thank you for bringing my attention to this but then I heard that the boys were dead, and I didn't really care to discuss much of anything. I heard about this last night at 11:00, and couldn't get myself to sign on to mention it.

In any case, I don't know what's been said on the thread yet but from what the local news is saying, the police checked the trunk of that car early on, and found nothing. If we recall that the police were called at 8:25 P.M., that means that the car was checked many hours after the boys had already disappeared. Did they wander back, and get themselves into the trunk? People were all around that house even into the night. I'm not understanding how this could have happened. Apparently, they're still looking for Angel Martinez.

[Beyond Belief]

I don't think the mothers employment status is an issue. Last year was the first time I worked in years due to the fact that I wasnt going to work until my youngest was in school I personally had my children so I will raise them if others wish to let the daycares raise their children then that is fine to each his own but it's not for me.We made ends meet, we couldnt go on vacations or drive new cars ..going out to dinner on payday was about the extent of our pleasures but we were/are happy as H@** .. I don't want to turn this board into a daycare debate I know some ladies believe in having a career and that is great. I am just one who decided to wait until all my kids were in school.These mothers now will have to live with this guilt for the rest of their lives lets just let them grieve thier loss and not worry about what kind of neighborhood they lived in or what kind of job they had. These 3 little guys didnt deserve this but I honestly don't think it was negligence on the mothers part. I'm so sad about this and I just pray to God they didnt suffer.
Had this story moved into another direction, "living in the most dangerous city in the country" would say loud and clear get a job and move.

My question was about oxygen in the trunk.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Is it possible it was a car where you can crawl through to the trunk and somehow they couldn't come back through??? My husbands car is like this, but you can come back through, although I don't know about other vehicles were you can access the trunk from the back seat....don't know if somehow you can't get back.

Soooooooo sad.....and right there at the house????? I'm shocked no one would think to look there...and there were dogs????? :( :( :(The car shown in the video was a Toyota Camry, and yes - the back seats have a clip that allows them to be folded down from inside the car. :( Actually, I don't know if all Camry's do but our two Camry's both had that feature.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The parked car warning I made had to do with young kids being left in a hot parked car.

Trunks are easy to open from inside the vehicle, the kids would not have needed keys, they could lift a lever by the side of the seat.

There has to be more to this than just a freak accident but I would think if there was any fowl play involved that the news would be all over it.

FOX news just said no fowl play!Hi nvfc. The families were shown arriving at police HQ's this morning. They stressed that none of them are suspected in the boys' deaths but apparently the investigation is ongoing.

It was also said on the local news this morning that they are still trying to determine "if the boys were put there by a killer" or if they somehow got in there on their own. (It was not nearly hot enough for those boys to die overnight. So that would have left hours for those boys to call out for someone if they were put in there alive during the first night.)

I mentioned that the Camry does have the ability to fold down the seats but I don't remember how easy or difficult it is to get back into the car. I don't remember there being a way to flip the seats back down from inside the trunk. Once inside the trunk, do you think that the boys would know to pull a lever - is it obvious? I wonder if boys that young would know about or find a lever. :(

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The bodies of Jesstin Pagan, 5; Daniel Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11, were discovered shortly before 7 p.m. by the father of one of the boys.

I can't imagine being that father :(There is actually video of the father after finding the boys that was shown on local Channel 6, (ABC News), and it's one of the worst things I've ever seen. These families are utterly devastated. My prayers go out to all of them.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MIA2180/


The bodies were discovered shortly before 7 p.m. by the father of one of the boys. It was not immediately clear how the boys got into the vehicle or whether foul play was involved.I wonder who got the video, and why on earth a video camera was running at the time. It didn't show him opening the trunk but it did show him reacting afterwards. I still can't figure out if it was news footage or private video.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It showed the father opening the trunk and all the people screaming and crying and he's jumping around....how did they happen to just be filming that??? I don't think having a video camera on the yard at that time would just be something I was thinking about two days later.Sorry Jovin, didn't see your post before posting the exact same thought.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It must have been hot..because I know we're experiencing heat today and tomorrow on this coast....
Weather Underground: History (http://www.weatherunderground.com/history/airport/KPHL/2005/6/23/DailyHistory.html)

The maximum temperature the day after they disappeared was 81. This site lists the temperature change hour by hour for that day in Camden.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

One of the mothers, the 6 year old boys Mom, was inside taking a nap, who lets their children GO PLAY , when they are inside sleeping , NOT me , not ever, I know a lot of things can happen, and could even happen to me/my kids/family, but I am paranoid enough about abductions when I am awake and let my kids play in their own yard ONLY, I certainly would not GO TO SLEEP and not care that my child, especially a 6 year old... was outside.... ALONE ???? What are people thinking ?I think that her boy was playing with the other two kids, and their mothers were supposed to be watching the boys at the time.

We originally heard that there were people chatting in the front of the house with their backs turned. Most recently, we've heard that one of the mothers went into the house for five or ten minutes. I've seen it said that it was to check the food that was cooking, and then I've seen it said that it was to talk to the mother of the other boy. So I don't know if there was anyone outside or not. I pray most for the mother that left those children outside. I can't imagine the tragedy and guilt of not only losing your own child by your actions but the children of two other families as well. And the mother that didn't even live there but came by for the day to visit and let her son play with his friends ... :( :( :(

[lady-eowyn]

In any case, I don't know what's been said on the thread yet but from what the local news is saying, the police checked the trunk of that car early on, and found nothing. If we recall that the police were called at 8:25 P.M., that means that the car was checked many hours after the boys had already disappeared. Did they wander back, and get themselves into the trunk? People were all around that house even into the night. I'm not understanding how this could have happened. Apparently, they're still looking for Angel Martinez.
The checked the trunk the they weren't there??!!

Makes me wonder if the boys wandered off and then saw all the hullabaloo when they started to come back, thought they would get in trouble and hid in the trunk. But it seems like someone would have seen them with all the people searching. :confused:

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I just saw a picture of one of the boys hugging a girl, probably his sister. They all look so sweet and so full of life.I forgot about the sister. That poor little girl! This is so so sad.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The checked the trunk the they weren't there??!!

Makes me wonder if the boys wandered off and then saw all the hullabaloo when they started to come back, thought they would get in trouble and hid in the trunk. But it seems like someone would have seen them with all the people searching. :confused:This is what I've heard. The police DID check the trunk. I can only imagine the scenario you mentioned. It's the only thing that makes any sense. Maybe while everyone was out searching, the kids wandered back, and were frightened realizing that no one was home. But then again, it only started to get dark at around the time the police were called. It just doesn't make sense to me.

And I really need to hear more about Angel Martinez. How do police think he was a "witness" to the disappearance? That's also not making sense to me.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Had this story moved into another direction, "living in the most dangerous city in the country" would say loud and clear get a job and move.I see what you're saying. However, life in that neighborhood is often a huge cycle involving lower income, lack of educational opportunities and achievements, etc. They were in a "better" part of Camden but I don't think it's "good" by most standards. Many people there are stuck. There aren't a ton of jobs there that make any real money, and a lot of these moms would spend more on daycare than they would earn. I was in the same situation myself many, many years ago. My lack of ability to afford daycare was actually one of the largest blessings in my life. It gave me the opportunity to be home with my kids.

[Beyond Belief]

I see what you're saying. However, life in that neighborhood is often a huge cycle involving lower income, lack of educational opportunities and achievements, etc. They were in a "better" part of Camden but I don't think it's "good" by most standards. Many people there are stuck. There aren't a ton of jobs there that make any real money, and a lot of these moms would spend more on daycare than they would earn. I was in the same situation myself many, many years ago. My lack of ability to afford daycare was actually one of the largest blessings in my life. It gave me the opportunity to be home with my kids.
Maybe they do work and had a day off? Three mothers could share taking care of the kids. And maybe they liked it there.

[nanandjim]

...This might be more than an accident.
Sorry to be so cynical, but I agree.

[nvfc]

My lack of ability to afford daycare was actually one of the largest blessings in my life. It gave me the opportunity to be home with my kids.
That is the understatement of the day! Spending time with your kids is so important and sadly many parents do not. Whether they are fit to be parents in the first place or just are too busy with their careers or still want to live like they are young, it is they kids who suffer.

[Aperture]

Sadly, it may be the case that it wasn't an accident. An article in the NY Post references a plastic bag over one of the children's head. Granted it could be the Post trying to jump the gun without having the facts. Here is an excerpt:

"The bodies of Jesstin "Manny" Pagan, 5; Daniel "Danny" Agosto, 6; and Anibal Cruz, 11 — who were last seen playing in a yard in this hard-luck suburb of Philadelphia — were found by Danny's father, David Agosto, shortly before 7 p.m. in the maroon Toyota Camry.

"Anibal's father told me that there was a plastic bag over his son's head," Anibal's babysitter, Nancy Santana, told The Post last night."

Prayers for the families .. .

The article can be found here: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/48934.htm

[nvfc]

It just seems to me if there was fowl play involved, the media would be all over this. Shepard Smith has even said no fowl play is involved. I hope this case is investigated thouroughly but the New York Post, I thought was just above the Globe or National Enquirer, correct me if I am wrong here.

I am sure that the trunk of a 92 Toyota would have many things inside so a plastic bag would be expected there, especially the type used by most grocery stores.

It does seem hard to imagine three boys all play inside of a trunk. It could have been though that they just tried to see if they could all fit in and somehow once inside the trunk closed and locked.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Philadelphia Daily News | 06/25/2005 | Little boys lost - 3 bodies found in trunk (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/11983099.htm)

... "Right now, we know the car was searched. We did begin the search Thursday morning in that area along with a canine, a bloodhound," said Camden Police Chief Edwin J. Figueroa.

"We're also going to look at our logs to find out what officers were in the area, to make a final determination of what areas of that vehicle were searched..."

David Agosto, Daniel's father... swung open the trunk of the car in full view of TV cameras that captured him screaming, jumping around and staggering into a wall.

Figueroa said it wasn't immediately clear if the trunk of the car was searched after the boys were first reported missing Wednesday afternoon.

"We looked out in the yard yesterday. We never thought to look in the trunk," cried Nancy Santana, Anibal's aunt. "We looked everywhere. My nephew... I lost him. I can't believe it. I loved him so much."

"The boys aren't even allowed to cross the street. They know that," added Santana's daughter, Jennifer. Many family members last night seemed to dismiss the idea of the boys having locked themselves in the Toyota's trunk.

Instead, they focused on the possibility that the boys were murdered and placed in the trunk afterward. "It is weird. I think it had to have been someone else," said Sarah Rivera, a family friend who joined more than a dozen devastated family members outside of Camden Police Headquarters last night.

There was no evidence to suggest that the boys were slain, Figueroa said...

[Mygirlsadie]

It just seems to me if there was fowl play involved, the media would be all over this. Shepard Smith has even said no fowl play is involved. I hope this case is investigated thouroughly but the New York Post, I thought was just above the Globe or National Enquirer, correct me if I am wrong here.

I am sure that the trunk of a 92 Toyota would have many things inside so a plastic bag would be expected there, especially the type used by most grocery stores.

It does seem hard to imagine three boys all play inside of a trunk. It could have been though that they just tried to see if they could all fit in and somehow once inside the trunk closed and locked.
I was thinking that also, once inside they couldnt get out. With 3 of them screaming would you not be able to hear from the outside if they were screaming for help? Also there is a article I read in one of the papers online (which I am trying to find to post it here) where one of the kids aunts says ''I just hope we find them sleeping in a car or something''.. those arent the exact words I am sure but pretty close and one LE said something along the lines of '' we cant use adult logic we have to think like young children they could be hiding anywhere''.........grrrrrr why didnt they check the car? The were giving theirselves the answers but they werent picking up on it

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

... How could the children have been in the same yard where they were last seen - while hundreds of police and neighbors combed the area for two straight days?

Did police search the trunk of the maroon Toyota Camry? Whose car was it?

And what led father David Agosto to race to the car and throw open the trunk early Friday evening, discovering the children's bodies as television cameras recorded the heartbreaking scene?

... Camden County Prosecutor Vincent P. Sarubbi: "We have not determined whether this was foul play or whether this was just a tragic accident."

... Police did search the vehicle ... but it was unclear whether they had opened the trunk.

... There were no obvious signs of trauma on the bodies ...

... The search ended - with a Toyota Camry in the Cruz backyard.

It had been there for months. It was undrivable - its front passenger side was crushed in, the rear passenger taillight cracked, the fender crumpled. Authorities said it was an older model with no escape handle inside the trunk.

... News cameras recorded Agosto ... and several others running determinedly toward the car, leaning inside and popping the trunk lever. Agosto then lifted the trunk lid and screamed in horror.

... a moaning and flailing Agosto was taken away on a stretcher.

... the temperature ranged between 70 and 80 degrees ... there was also rain and scattered thunderstorms that may have muffled any noise from boys inside the trunk of a car...

The death of children in car trunks is not common but can happen quickly ...

Between 1987 and 1998, 19 children, all under the age of 6, died in car trunks ...

In all but two of the nine separate cases, the children were found dead 1 to 2 and a half hours after they were reported missing...

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It just seems to me if there was fowl play involved, the media would be all over this. Shepard Smith has even said no fowl play is involved. I hope this case is investigated thouroughly but the New York Post, I thought was just above the Globe or National Enquirer, correct me if I am wrong here.
I've heard that too but isn't the New York Post owned by FOX? Not that that means anything but why such conflicting stories from different FOX sources, I wonder? (I'm not even sure that it IS owned by FOX.)

It does seem hard to imagine three boys all play inside of a trunk. It could have been though that they just tried to see if they could all fit in and somehow once inside the trunk closed and locked.I think that an earlier theory posted here could be correct - that the boys wandered back, saw all of the commotion they had caused, and hid in the trunk because they were afraid they'd get in trouble. Remember some sightings were reported of the boys at a pizza stand and a couple of other places? I wonder if they were wandering around, and that maybe they weren't in the trunk if and when police checked there.

[Beyond Belief]

Deaths determined accidental suffocation not foul play.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Anibal "Juni" Cruz, 11 NBC10.com - Slideshow (http://www.nbc10.com/slideshow/4642228/detail.html?qs=;s=7;w=120)

Had just finished fifth grade at a Willingboro school for special needs students. He had attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, according to his mother, Elba Cruz, a Head Start teacher in Camden.

Neighbors described him as quiet but friendly, a child who loved animals and plants and exploring.

Daniel "Danny" Agosto, 6 NBC10.com - Slideshow (http://www.nbc10.com/slideshow/4642228/detail.html?qs=;s=8;w=120)

A kindergartner at Harry C. Sharp Elementary School ...

He was one of four children living with his father, David Agosto and his mother, Iraida Roman. Two other siblings live elsewhere. Roman said her son liked to "ride bikes, play in the dirt - simple kid stuff."

Jesstin "Manny" Pagan, 5 NBC10.com - Slideshow (http://www.nbc10.com/slideshow/4642228/detail.html?qs=;s=9;w=120)

Jesstin lived in Mount Ephraim and had just graduated from kindergarten at a school in Salem County. Pagan's mother is friends with Cruz's mother and had been visiting the Cruz home.

A family friend, Cornell Worlds Jr., said Jesstin was an only child, a "good-spirited type of kid."

[Mygirlsadie]

Deaths determined accidental suffocation not foul play.

Terrible :( So I guess the 3 ran over to the car opened the door pulled the seat down and climbed in the truck shut the seat and were stuck? I doubt the trunk could of been opened from the outside unless one had a key or they pulled the lever in the car and then all climbed in shutting the trunk behind them. All of this takes longer than a couple minutes to do when you are x's ing it by 3 boys..Not putting blames on the mothers here at all but more than likely they were inside the house more then a few minutes though. My son escaped out our back door one time while I was at the front door answering it I was probably at the door 10 minutes talking to a neighbor I was still inside my house but preoccupied w/ the neighbor that my little man got out that fast and poof like that he was gone. I never thought to look out back because he shut the door behind him when he left so the door was closed. Finally the MP's the Kentucky State Police and my whole neighborhood were searching for him they found him walking along side a off ramp that leads up to the highway. I can tell you for that hour of my life I was in a pure state of hysteria I was dizzy felt like throwing up couldnt stop crying I think if something would of happend to him I would now be in a mental institute. I never thought someone had him I was thinking more along the lines of hit by a car on the highway that ran alongside my house. God Bless those families I pray he gives them the strength to handle life after this.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Camden Stunned After Missing Children Found Dead (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4642218/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news)

(County Prosecutor Vince) Sarubbi urged people to stay away from the Bergen Avenue residence where the boys were found...

The bodies were found by two men, one of whom was the father of one of the boys.

TV camera crews and more than 100 people were at the scene when the bodies were found, since a vigil for the boys had been planned to start shortly before the discovery...

Family members then left on a special bus to go to a police station to meet with grief counselors...

More than 100 searchers, including police officers, volunteers, firefighters, helicopters, dive teams and bloodhounds, were looking for the three children...

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - News - Missing Boys Liked Cats, Dogs, Bikes And Basketball (http://www.nbc10.com/news/4650822/detail.html)

Two were from big families, one was an only child.

Their loves were typical kids' stuff: riding bikes and playing video games...

Anibal had just finished fifth grade at a Willingboro school for special needs students. Relatives said he suffered from neurological problems, including attention deficit disorder, and kept a schedule more than most children, making sure he took his medication on time.

An uncle, Mario Rivera, said Anibal loved cats and dogs and used to try to bring home animals he found in the neighborhood.

And his family's home could be crowded: Anibal was the third of five children of a single mother.

Rivera said that in the days before he went missing, his nephew talked about wanting to go fishing.

Jesstin Pagan, 5, was known as "Manny... When he played basketball video games, Jesstin always wanted to be the Los Angeles Lakers because they have Kobe Bryant, said a family friend, Cornell Worlds Jr.

Worlds said Jesstin, an only child, attended a special needs school in Salem, but he was unsure why.

Worlds called him "a good-spirited type of kid."

Daniel "Danny" Agosto ... a regular kid who liked to "ride bikes, play in the dirt -- simple kid stuff..."

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com - Slideshow (http://www.nbc10.com/slideshow/4650611/detail.html?qs=;s=1;w=320)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

NBC10.com FeedRoom (http://nbc10.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=272289)

As it turns out, they used white sheets to block the scene from view. The NJ Transit bus was brought in to transport family members to the courthouse complex (?) to meet with grief couselors.

The video also discusses Angel Martinez, about 28, and refers to him and Anibal, (the 11 year-old that functioned on a 4 or 5 year-old level), as very good friends. They said something about checking his last known address, and him no longer living there or something along those lines.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

New York Daily News - News & Views - A tragic ending (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/322321p-275567c.html)

... A neighbor, Carmen Cilla, said she saw David Agosto open the trunk of the maroon Toyota Camry and collapse to his knees screaming. Relatives said he opened the trunk to investigate a strange smell coming from it...

John Garner, 44, said the boys' deaths hit the community hard because they could easily have been saved.

"They searched and searched and searched everywhere, and they found them right here..."

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

ABC News: Officials: Missing N.J. Boys Suffocated (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=881363)

Three boys whose bodies were found in the trunk of a car following a massive, two-day search died from accidental suffocation, not foul play, authorities said Saturday...

The car was searched when police first responded to the report of the missing children Wednesday at about 8:30 p.m., Police Chief Edwin Figueroa said.

But county prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi said it can be inferred from the grisly discovery Friday night that the trunk of the battered car had not been checked. He said police and prosecutors will issue a report on the handling of the search within 30 days...

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

WPVI.com: Bodies of 3 Camden Boys Found (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/062505_nw_missingboysfound.html)

WPVI Video Player (http://ww2.wpvi.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?ClipID1=456815&h1=&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=186200&activePane=info&playerVersion=1&rnd=95998749) (This is the original video. Please be warned that the beginning of it is VERY difficult to watch.)

[Mygirlsadie]

WPVI.com: Bodies of 3 Camden Boys Found (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/062505_nw_missingboysfound.html)

WPVI Video Player (http://ww2.wpvi.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?ClipID1=456815&h1=&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=186200&activePane=info&playerVersion=1&rnd=95998749) (This is the original video. Please be warned that the beginning of it is VERY difficult to watch.)
Thanks for all the links Jerseygirl.. Would anyone know how long it would take to suffocate in the trunk of a car? I'm sure O2 was limited considering there were 3 of them

[lady-eowyn]

Thanks for all the links Jerseygirl.. Would anyone know how long it would take to suffocate in the trunk of a car? I'm sure O2 was limited considering there were 3 of them



Researched incidents indicate that children are more likely to die when trapped unintentionally than intentionally. Among children ages 14 and under, unintentional entrapments account for 43 percent of all entrapments yet 61 percent of the deaths.
In both intentional and unintentional entrapments, younger children ages 2 to 6 are more likely to die, and older children ages 7 to 14 are more likely to be non-fatally injured.
Hyperthermia (heat stroke) or hyperthermia combined with asphyxiation are the most common causes of death associated with unintentional trunk entrapment deaths.




Cars parked in direct sunlight can reach internal temperatures of 131°F - 172°F, even after only 15 minutes in the sun. Younger children are more sensitive to heat than older children and adults and are at greater risk for heat stroke. The combination of high temperature, humidity and poor ventilation all contribute to the extreme danger of car trunks.

http://www.kidsandcars.org/trunc/factsheet.htm


If it were in the 80's I'm sure it wouldn't have taken long, especially since there were three of them in there together. I think it's more a case of heat than O2:(

[nvfc]

Hi nvfc. Once inside the trunk, do you think that the boys would know to pull a lever - is it obvious? I wonder if boys that young would know about or find a lever. :( @jerseygirl Mine was speculation before I knew the type of vehicle, the lever in my post was referring to one I have by my drivers seat. Push down and it opens the gas cover and lift up and it opens the trunk. I meant that having access to the trunk could be very easy if they were inside, not needing keys. I also have the fold down seats but do not think they crawled through in this method because they could crawl back. Someone would have to put the seats back from inside the car, I do not think the kids could fron the trunk. However the trunk lid closing and locking seems much more likely IMO.

[Peabody]

ABC News: Officials: Missing N.J. Boys Suffocated (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=881363)

Three boys whose bodies were found in the trunk of a car following a massive, two-day search died from accidental suffocation, not foul play, authorities said Saturday...

The car was searched when police first responded to the report of the missing children Wednesday at about 8:30 p.m., Police Chief Edwin Figueroa said.

But county prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi said it can be inferred from the grisly discovery Friday night that the trunk of the battered car had not been checked. He said police and prosecutors will issue a report on the handling of the search within 30 days...
If it is correct that the car was searched, but the trunk was not then consider:

We have all made mistakes and we all know that hindsight is better than foresight...........BUT how in the world can anyone in a search party look inside a car AND not look inside the trunk? Especially a car within sight of the last reported location of the boys!

This oversight and serious mistake is not like the Jessica Lunsford case where LE had to obey constituional law and protect rights to privacy. This was an abandoned car and 3 children were missing. This abandoned car had access to the trunk from the backseat. What were these searchers thinking????

Someone needs to be held accountable for the tragic ending of these young lives AND it should not be the parents.

With Prayers for God's comfort for all the loved ones of these children.

[Sheromom]

For the life of me, I do not understand why the news had to broadcast the father opening the trunk and falling to the ground. Or why so many people stand around trying to get a look at what is happening. My goodness, if I see an accident, I turn my head the other way as we pass. What is wrong with people. It is such a sad thing that has happened. I feel so badly for all the parents. No way I would stand around gaping at them. And I surely wouldn't want to see the bodies in that trunk! The ONLY good thing I can think of about this whole thing is that it is good the mentally challenged child had such good friends, even though they were younger. How nice the parents let them hang with someone older that still needed friends.

[mysteriew]

Sarubbi said there were no signs of foul play in the deaths of 11-year-old Anibal Cruz, 6-year-old Daniel Agosto and 5-year-old Jesstin Pagan, which he called a "horrible, tragic and unexplainable incident."

At least one of the children, he said, had a history of playing in the car, and investigators believe the three boys climbed into the trunk themselves. The trunk's lid closed automatically, Sarubbi said.

Authorities believe the children had been in the trunk since about 5 p.m. Wednesday night, when they were last seen playing in a side yard of the home where Cruz lived.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/25/missing.boys/index.html

[LittleEdie]

...

And what led father David Agosto to race to the car and throw open the trunk early Friday evening, discovering the children's bodies as television cameras recorded the heartbreaking scene?

<SNIP>

... News cameras recorded Agosto ... and several others running determinedly toward the car, leaning inside and popping the trunk lever. Agosto then lifted the trunk lid and screamed in horror.

... a moaning and flailing Agosto was taken away on a stretcher.

I had the very same questions myself when I watched the tape of the incident on several local stations. Why were they all running to the car? Why were all the news cameras there to capture this at the same time? What was the "rush" all of a sudden to get to the car at that very moment when it had already been searched?

Something about that whole scene smelled very fishy to me. I hope it's me being cynical, but also hope the police don't write this off as a tragic accident too quickly.

[emmcee]

At least one of the children, he said, had a history of playing in the car . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/25/missing.boys/index.html

I CANNOT BELIEVE if it was known that the boy(s) had a history of playing in the car that the trunk was not one of the VERY FIRST places looked into! This defies all logic.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Columbo]

I had the very same questions myself when I watched the tape of the incident on several local stations. Why were they all running to the car? Why were all the news cameras there to capture this at the same time? What was the "rush" all of a sudden to get to the car at that very moment when it had already been searched?

Something about that whole scene smelled very fishy to me. I hope it's me being cynical, but also hope the police don't write this off as a tragic accident too quickly.
I thought it seemed odd, also.

[Lady Sleuth]

NBC10.com FeedRoom (http://nbc10.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=272289)

As it turns out, they used white sheets to block the scene from view. The NJ Transit bus was brought in to transport family members to the courthouse complex (?) to meet with grief couselors.

The video also discusses Angel Martinez, about 28, and refers to him and Anibal, (the 11 year-old that functioned on a 4 or 5 year-old level), as very good friends. They said something about checking his last known address, and him no longer living there or something along those lines.


I would like to know what kind of friendship a 28 yr. old man is having with an 11 yr. old boy with the mental capacity of a 4-5 yr. old. And, how would he be a witness?

This bothers me.

Lady Sleuth
jmho

[MlazyV]

How very sad for these three families. Camden is a densly populated area with not only lots of people but cars galore. Perhaps that is why the obvious was overlooked. Check one trunk and you'd have to check em all.

[Mygirlsadie]

For the life of me, I do not understand why the news had to broadcast the father opening the trunk and falling to the ground. Or why so many people stand around trying to get a look at what is happening. My goodness, if I see an accident, I turn my head the other way as we pass. What is wrong with people. It is such a sad thing that has happened. I feel so badly for all the parents. No way I would stand around gaping at them. And I surely wouldn't want to see the bodies in that trunk! The ONLY good thing I can think of about this whole thing is that it is good the mentally challenged child had such good friends, even though they were younger. How nice the parents let them hang with someone older that still needed friends.
Sheromom I agree with you and as I sit here and watch the news I see all these people staring and screaming and running to the car and tons of teenagers it seems like. Where was all these concerned citizens when these little boys climbed in the car to begin with? Also something I would like to add..I heard the parents did not call 911 to report the children missing until some 3 hours AFTER they went missing...if the searchers would of went straight to the trunk the minute they got to the house the boys more than likely would of already been dead. I for some reason smell lawsuits against LE coming up but then I wonder if LE will throw child endagerment/neglect charges right back at the parents? I personally think noone is to blame for this its not like the parents wanted their boys to climb in the trunk and die..and its not like LE didnt want to find these boys ASAP... ugh its all so freakin terrible

[Beyond Belief]

Is it possible the first check of the car would have required a key, which was unavailable? I think someone said they smelled an odor coming from the car. Why didn't someone else besides the father do that, God help him.
Praying for these families.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

For the life of me, I do not understand why the news had to broadcast the father opening the trunk and falling to the ground. Or why so many people stand around trying to get a look at what is happening. My goodness, if I see an accident, I turn my head the other way as we pass. What is wrong with people. It is such a sad thing that has happened. I feel so badly for all the parents. No way I would stand around gaping at them. And I surely wouldn't want to see the bodies in that trunk! The ONLY good thing I can think of about this whole thing is that it is good the mentally challenged child had such good friends, even though they were younger. How nice the parents let them hang with someone older that still needed friends.I understand how you're feeling, Sheromom. I do want to mention, however, that the reason the footage even exists of the father opening the trunk is because a prayer session was scheduled for that evening, and the media was standing by to cover it. If I'm not mistaken, the discovery was made only ten minutes or so before it was due to begin. The people that were in the video were members of the community that have been searching and praying beside the family since this terrible ordeal began. The community is said to be close, they all came together during the search, and the entire community is in absolute shock right now. :(

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

How very sad for these three families. Camden is a densly populated area with not only lots of people but cars galore. Perhaps that is why the obvious was overlooked. Check one trunk and you'd have to check em all.This car was on their property though if I'm not mistaken. And it's been said around here that the car belonged to one of the grandmothers, (though I don't know if that's true). I agree that something seemed strange about them suddenly running to the car. It is also strange to me that a 28 year-old would be "good friends" with the 11 year-old boy. And also as previously mentioned, if one of them was known to play in the car(s), then why on Earth were the cars not thoroughly searched. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people share the blame in this but I think that they will serve the consequences of that blame for the rest of their lives. :(

ETA: And I think that even if LE checked the car upon first arriving on the scene, the boys would quite possibly have already died since they may have been in there since 5 P.M., (although it seemed to be in the shade so perhaps not).

I would also like to be sure that LE is checking this out thoroughly. Although it might well be a tragic accident, a couple of things are just plain disturbing.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Is it possible the first check of the car would have required a key, which was unavailable? I think someone said they smelled an odor coming from the car. Why didn't someone else besides the father do that, God help him.
Praying for these families.I also wish that ANYONE but the family members would have been the one to make the discovery. I don't know how that poor man will ever be able to try to go on. My heart breaks for him.

[winelover]

This whole thing is so sad and disturbing.

I don't understand why the trunk wasn't checked right away?

Tragic, tragic situation. I felt terrible watching the father being supported by family&friends.

I have two children, 3 & 5, I can't imagine the horror these families are facing.

[kk's mom]

This is such a tragedy. Camden is only about 1.5 hours from me. I've only been there once, to visit the aquarium. I think the boys deaths are accidental. They were known to play in abandoned cars, prentending to drive. I did see a clip that bothered me of a female police officer checking underneath the car on Thursday. I mean, she was right at the back of the car (at the trunk) and had her hand on the trunk, bending over to look underneath. I almost got sick. I know the family didn't call the police at first until about what, 2.5 to 3 hours? I know they were checking the neighborhood at first. I wish they would have checked the abandoned car at that time as it was on the property they were last seen playing. But these types of suffocation deaths happen in as little as 1 to 2 hours once trapped inside. It's going to come down to alot of fingerpointing I think from both sides. It's such a senseless tragedy.

[PrayersForMaura]

I hope there is no finger pointing ... this is a sad situation for all involved.

I don't mean to sound completely gross, but wouldn't the bodies have started to decay? I can imagine that they probably looked terrible, and it's bad enough that the father had to be the one to find his son and the other two young boys, but to see them in such a condition would be doubly unbearable.

Wouldn't the bodies have started to smell the next day? I am not educated about the forensics of it all, but I would think that if a child can die in a hot car while her mother is shopping in a store and left her baby out there, that young kids would also pass out quickly.
i just think about how hot my car seats are when i get into the car in the afternoon ... It was probably very hot and there was not much oxygen. The boys had nothing to eat or drink and probably started to freak out and I don't even want to think about it. :(

I am so very sorry to the parents of these boys :(

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Missing N.J. Boys Found Dead on Yahoo! News Photos (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/062305camdenmissing;_ylt=AhXGi_1TJJmbpI9L38HwTjBsa MYA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5bGcyMWMzBHNlYwNzc25hdg--)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

N.J. Boys Said to Accidentally Suffocate - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050626/ap_on_re_us/missing_children_11)

... Death certificates did not give a time of death for Jesstin Pagan, 5, Anibal Cruz, 11, and Daniel Agosto, 6. Officials said a full autopsy report may include an estimate.

... Officials said one of the boys had played before in the car, which was owned by Anibal's maternal grandmother. It had been sitting for about three weeks in a shaded, weedy corner of the Cruz family's yard.

The deaths brought to 11 the number of children who have accidentally died in car trunks since 2000, according to Kids and Cars, a nonprofit group in Leawood, Kan., that tracks such cases...

Fennell's group successfully lobbied Congress to pass a law requiring cars made beginning in 2002 to have release latches inside the trunk, but the Toyota in which the boys were found appears to have been made prior to 2002...

Sarubbi said an uncle of one of the boys wanted to look in the trunk because he was searching for a set of jumper cables. Daniel's father, David Agosto, accompanied him, the prosecutor said, because "the thought may have crossed his mind that the boys may have been in that trunk..."

The prosecutor said the hydraulic plunger that keeps the trunk from closing was not working, so the lid was able to swing close and lock as soon as the boys stopped propping it up.

He said some periods of hard rain on Wednesday evening may have muffled any noises from the well-insulated trunk, which was parked far enough from the house to make it difficult to hear any voices coming from it.

Figueroa said if any law enforcement officials broke department rules in the search they would be disciplined, but otherwise he might simply order more training for the officers...

Instead of passing out fliers, volunteers were collecting money for the boys' families.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

KSAT.com - News - Rain Might Have Muffled Children's Cries For Help (http://www.ksat.com/news/4651951/detail.html?rss=ant&psp=news)

... The mother of one boy said she never left the yard where they were playing. Jessica Pagan said she turned around at about 5 p.m. Wednesday and her son, Jesstin Pagan, 5, and his playmates Anibal Cruz, 11, and Daniel Agosto, 6, were gone.

... Investigators also searched the homes of friends and relatives of the boys while police knocked on every door in the neighborhood, checked backyard sheds and abandoned houses, and even removed manhole covers.

... Sarubbi said that a panel in the back seat that can offer access to the trunk was locked.

[nvfc]

I for some reason smell lawsuits against LE coming up but then I wonder if LE will throw child endagerment/neglect charges right back at the parents?
I thought about this earlier and I hope it does not turn into a lawsuit. If one of the boys was known to play in cars, the family needs to look at themselves first as to why they did not check there. I hope there are no neglect charges as I have not seen any reason for that either, these kids from photos look like they were taken care of. What makes this case all the harder is to lose all three at once.

Disclaimer, if during the investigation something is discovered against the family and their care my position will change.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

WOAI: San Antonio News - Missing Boys Found Dead in Car Trunk (http://www.woai.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=56930000-8DB6-4965-861B-CA8D996D3B12)

... Elba Cruz, Anibal's mother, said she left them alone outside for five to 10 minutes while she cooked dinner. When she returned, they were gone.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

CNN.com - Prosecutor: New Jersey boys' deaths accidental - Jun 25, 2005 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/25/missing.boys/index.html?section=cnn_latest)

... Questions were raised about why police officers and others conducting a massive search for the children checked the vehicle but apparently did not open the trunk. A panel will be appointed to investigate those questions and issue a report within 30 days...

... Camden Police Chief Edwin Figueroa said if investigators had checked the trunk when they were first called in, the children might have survived.

... The car was parked just in a shady area about 30 yards from the back of the Cruz home. Sarubbi said he could not explain how, if the children tried to call out for help, no one heard them.

Sarubbi said he did not know how long the children could have survived in the trunk, adding that the medical examiner listed the boys' time of death as unknown. "We may never know the answer," he said. The medical examiner may issue a more extensive report later addressing the issue, he said.

... Investigators examining the car had to use two-by-fours to prop the lid open, he said.

A bag of cement was on one side of the trunk and had broken open, spilling the substance onto the children. Sarubbi would not say whether there were any signs that the boys had tried to escape. He said out of concern for the children's families he did not want to go into detail.

The car's rear seats did flip down to allow trunk access, but the seats were locked, he said, and there was no indication the boys had tried to get out that way.

... Asked about a onetime person of interest in the case, Sarubbi would not disclose why police wanted to talk with the man but said that obviously, his involvement had been ruled out.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

KRT Wire | 06/25/2005 | Boys found in car trunk died of accidental suffocation, police say (http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/nation/11986787.htm)

The last time some neighbors saw Anibal Cruz, he was spraying two friends with a hose in the front yard of his family's house...

Two days later, one of the boys' uncles who had driven from Patterson, N.J., to help look for them, wanted to see if there were any jumper cables in the Camry's trunk...

According to the National Weather Service, it was 80 degrees at 5 p.m. and 70 degrees at 6 p.m. Wednesday, with rain and scattered thunderstorms that may have muffled any noise from the boys trapped inside the trunk of a car.

Maggy Ortiz, Daniel Agosto's cousin, walked along Bergen Street on Saturday, collecting donations for the boys' funerals...

[Sassygerl]

It's almost too much reading all the info regarding this case...it's oh so sad. I am not going to place blame on anyone, because I know as a parent things happen, although I myself have been asking questions.....questions the parents have probably in hindsight asked themselves.

Prayers for the families...what a tragedy!!!

[Marthatex]

Why can't they invent something, irridescent perhaps, that children or even adults can learn to punch on to open the trunk from the inside? This is such a tragedy.

[Nore]

It's almost too much reading all the info regarding this case...it's oh so sad. I am not going to place blame on anyone, because I know as a parent things happen, although I myself have been asking questions.....questions the parents have probably in hindsight asked themselves.

Prayers for the families...what a tragedy!!!
------------------

Hi,my great grandson slept over last night.Juan is 5 years old.While I washed a load of clothes he announced "gramma cant see me I am hiding".I found myself wondering if the boys decided to hide on mommy.It is possible that is why no one heard them cry out.Lttle ones do like to hide and even mine did a good job of it in a moment.I wonder if the owner of the car has any responsibility for leaving access to the trunk,should have been key locked.

[Sassygerl]

------------------

Hi,my great grandson slept over last night.Juan is 5 years old.While I washed a load of clothes he announced "gramma cant see me I am hiding".I found myself wondering if the boys decided to hide on mommy.It is possible that is why no one heard them cry out.Lttle ones do like to hide and even mine did a good job of it in a moment.I wonder if the owner of the car has any responsibility for leaving access to the trunk,should have been key locked.

Kids love to hide!!!! I wonder too if they were hiding! Unfortunately it was a deadly game. :( From what I understand the car was the grandmother's and it had trouble running, so it sat in the yard. I don't understand why the police didn't check the trunk....ugh....video shows a police officer gal looking around the car, but NOT the trunk :(

[Mygirlsadie]

Kids love to hide!!!! I wonder too if they were hiding! Unfortunately it was a deadly game. :( From what I understand the car was the grandmother's and it had trouble running, so it sat in the yard. I don't understand why the police didn't check the trunk....ugh....video shows a police officer gal looking around the car, but NOT the trunk :(
I don't understand how the boys were able to open the trunk in the first place and hold it open while they all climbed in. These little guys have been on my mind all day I guess because I have 2 boys the same age as the 2 younger ones in this case. It really makes you hug your kids tighter and hold them closer.

[Sassygerl]

I don't understand how the boys were able to open the trunk in the first place and hold it open while they all climbed in. These little guys have been on my mind all day I guess because I have 2 boys the same age as the 2 younger ones in this case. It really makes you hug your kids tighter and hold them closer.

I don't know either, but my guess is that they got in the car, then crawled through to the trunk from the backseat....they weren't able to get out :(

[ewwwinteresting]

Kids love to hide!!!! I wonder too if they were hiding! Unfortunately it was a deadly game. :( From what I understand the car was the grandmother's and it had trouble running, so it sat in the yard. I don't understand why the police didn't check the trunk....ugh....video shows a police officer gal looking around the car, but NOT the trunk :(
I'm trying to think if one of my little kids were missing, if I would look in the trucks of all the cars in the neighborhood. I know NOW I would, but maybe not before. Now, if I knew my child had a history of playing in cars, then I probably would. I wonder if that information was told to anybody. What seems so frustrating in this case is that the boys were supposedly seen several blocks away, in town, etc. These fake sightings, I believe, threw everybody off from looking just around the yard where they were playing. There were thinking they left to go exploring or it was an abduction. Just so sad!

[Bobbisangel]

I hope that these families are treated kindly and that they never hear or read anyone blaming them for the deaths of their children. These parents will blame themselves for the rest of their lives...they sure don't need anyone adding to their guilt.

With all of the people out looking for the boys it could have been a case of each person thinking that the other had checked the trunk out when, in fact, no one had looked. I would think the female officer is just sick at heart. She was right there touching the trunk and didn't look.

I remember when little kids used to climb into old refrigerators...pull the door closed because they were hiding from friends, etc, and they would die. Finally a law was passed that the doors on any frig not in use had to be removed.
In the case of cars not in use but maybe just needing a little work it wouldn't be practical to remove the trunk but if we can learn one thing from the deaths of these little guys it is to always keep car doors and trunks locked...preventing kids from entering the car at all.

There is no way that any charges will be brought against these parents. The same thing could happen to anyone who has young children. Turn your back for a minute and they are gone. Kids are so fast and sadly accidents happen.
I remember a time when my daughter and I were in a small clothing store. Her daughter was probably 3 yrs. She hid under a round rack of clothing and we could not find her anywhere. The clothing reached nearly to the ground so it completely covered her. We called and called....looked and looked and the little brat wouldn't answer or come out. We thought she may have run out the door. Someone finally spotted her in the middle of those clothes but it was a scary time. I had visions in my head of her running out into the street, of someone grabbing her if she was on the sidewalk alone, etc. It wasn't a case of neglect...it was a case of a little kid hiding and not answering. Kids do these things.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

COPS BLEW IT AS KIDS DIED - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nypost/20050626/lo_nypost/copsblewitaskidsdied)

The three boys who suffocated in the locked trunk of a car in Camden were likely gasping for their last breaths as clueless cops searched the car interior — but inexplicably failed to pop open the trunk.

Parents called police at 8:24 p.m. Wednesday and cops arrived one to six minutes later. They looked inside the 1992 Toyota Camry — but did not check the trunk, Camden County Prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi admitted.

"I give them a million thanks, but basically all they did was check over the car with flashlights and never opened the trunk," said a devastated Anibal Cruz Sr., the father of one of the boys.

"They were negligent..."

"I blame them, and then I don't blame them," the elder Cruz said of the cops. "They checked everywhere, but not inside the trunk."

Danny's 17-year-old brother, David, said the family was still trying to come to terms with the tragedy, and he thanked the community for uniting in the search.

"We take it one step at a time, trying to stay strong. We're kind of upset, but we don't blame them [the police]. They worked hard, some didn't hardly sleep. I can't blame them."

Sarubbi said the boys died of suffocation, and that an open bag of cement was found on top of them...

At least one of the kids had played inside the disabled vehicle once before; cops won't say which one...

But cousin Mariana Cheverez, 27, said the family only wanted answers — not to point fingers.

"We really need to know why they were in there," she said of the children...

"To me, they messed up," said Jos Santiago, 65, another neighbor. "If the kids were there, cops did a really poor job."

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Somber residents seek to learn from tragedy (http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m062605b.htm)

... William Martinez Jr., who lives in the Cramer Hill neighborhood where the tragedy occurred, said a public investment in recreational facilities might have saved the boys' lives.

"Honestly I think that if those kids had a place to go and play, this wouldn't have happened," said Martinez.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Just on Action News:

Jesstin Pagan's mother has been having thoughts of suicide. (She is the mother of the 5 year-old only child.)

The funerals are being donated by May's (?) Funeral Home.

A fund has been set up to help the families, (but I don't have that address yet).

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

KYW Newsradio 1060 - News (http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=47302)

The fund:

c/o Bank of America
Pathmark
2881 Mount Ephraim Avenue
Camden, NJ 08014

[MlazyV]

There are laws requiring doors be removed from abandoned refridgerators so this type of tragedy doesn't occur maybe it should be extended to cars? If there had been an abandoned freezer in the yard it would have been opened because they generally don't have locks, just handles, and hopefully opened by the parents. I can't imagine parents without the wherewithall to completely search their property before even calling police. It's mind boggling.



They said the passage from the back seat to the trunk was locked but possibly the boys locked it or it locked itself once they were in the trunk or it was broken. Were the door locks broken too? From what I read this was more or less an abandoned car stored on the property. I don't think the boys were hiding but shut the passage to make the trunk into a play fort of sorts.



I don't blame the police in any way shape or form. Every car has unique trunk operation features such as a button to pop it open from the inside or a backseat passage. There is no way the police know or have access to all of this information. The outside had a lock. It's assumed people will use common sense in caring for their children and that's why there are more laws for animals than children.




I'm sure a lawyer with dollar signs in his eyes has already contacted the families and they could even win with a sympathetic jury but in my eyes the parents were negligent.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I must say that I probably wouldn't have thought to check the trunk. But if my kid was known to play in there, I may have.

The car was said to have been on the property for 3 weeks but I've also heard other reports say 3 months.

I also don't blame the police. I think that most of the family members feel the same way. The one that's concerning me is Anibal's father, (who if I'm not mistaken did not live with Anibal). So far, he's the only one that's mentioned negligence, etc. It was said on the news this morning that such-and-such lawyer would not comment on whether or not suit would be filed against the police. Unfortunately, I didn't hear who the lawyer was representing. I'll let you know if I hear anything further on that.

[MlazyV]

"William Martinez Jr., who lives in the Cramer Hill neighborhood where the tragedy occurred, said a public investment in recreational facilities might have saved the boys' lives."

It sounds like the boys were the vicitms of poverty more than anything else.

"The one that's concerning me is Anibal's father, (who if I'm not mistaken did not live with Anibal). So far, he's the only one that's mentioned negligence,"

IMO the most basic form of negligence is whan a father does not live with their children nor provide emotional and financial support for their mother. It takes day to day involvement by both parents in everyday family activites like meals, baths, playing, and reading for a child to have any chance of developing their full human potential. It's so sad so many children miss this basic necessity.

[wenchie]

I can't imagine why it would be expected that LE would look in the trunk of the car, when the adults who knew that the kids played in that car didn't even think of it.

If it were me and a child went missing, it wouldn't even occur to me to check the trunk of my car.

And as for someone using this as a political opportunity (blaming the lack of recreational facilities) - these were small children who were playing in a back yard while their mothers visited. They wouldn't have been in a public park even if there was one nearby. The one mother didn't even live in Camden.

It's just a terrible, terrible tragedy, and I avert my eyes every time they show that father on TV, because it is so horrifying to think of what he is going through and will go through for the rest of his life.

It's natural to look for someone to blame in a situation like this, but I don't think that either LE or the lack of recreational facilities is to blame.

It looks like no one was really to "blame". Just a horrible, horrible tragedy that could have happened to anyone.

[luthersmama]

I can't imagine why it would be expected that LE would look in the trunk of the car, when the adults who knew that the kids played in that car didn't even think of it.




If the car was locked, the cops could not have looked into the trunk without gettting the key from the family. The boys might have locked it from the inside after they went in through the passenger door. I'm still puzzled by why they waited so long to call the police at all. I could understand an hour, but not 3 hours, especially with the river so close by.

:waitasec:

[lavenderdreams79]

Hi everyone, I have been lurking since Jessica Lunsford went missing and have posted only twice before.

There is supposed to be a news conference today at 12:30 (they are running late, it's 10 of 1) on Philly's Action News. They have a reporter there who they spoke to around 12:30 who said it should be starting shortly.

I heard on the news earlier that the latch on the truck wasn't working properly, I feel so bad for these families. But I don't think blame should be thrown around. Honestly, who would think to look in the truck? I do find it odd that police thought to search the car (http://stphork.com/?go=car&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fwebsleuths.com%2Fforums%2Feditpo st.php), but not ALL of the car (http://thefullm.com/?go=car&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fwebsleuths.com%2Fforums%2Feditpo st.php). Pointing fingers isn't going to bring these boys back. All of these people will have to live with this for the rest of their lives, having everyone pointing fingers in their face isn't necessary. Tragic ACCIDENTS happen everyday and sometimes these accidents aren't anyone's fault but the human mind needs to rationalize it so it has to force blame on someone. :slap: Hopefully we can learn (http://josynet.com/?go=learn&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fwebsleuths.com%2Fforums%2Feditpo st.php) more from the press conference.

[wenchie]

The trunk could be opened by a release that was inside of the car. It did not stay up by itself, and the owner had been using a piece of wood to keep it open.

If the adults didn't think of it, I see no reason in the world why LE would think of it.

[PrayersForMaura]

If the adults didn't think of it, I see no reason in the world why LE would think of it.
I completely agree... The parents cannot blame police if they didn't think to check it either, honestly.
I really hope this doesn't come to finger pointing. :(

[MlazyV]

This tragedy was not an isolated incident making negligence rather than a freak accident at fault. I think the more finger pointing the better at geting the word out about the simple dangers of trunk entrapment.

http://www.kidsandcars.org/trunk_entrapment.htm

[MlazyV]

"Trunk entrapment:

A child's nature is to explore his/her surroundings. Unfortunately, this exploration can place a child in danger. Unintentional trunk entrapment, when children lock themselves in a trunk, can be fatal - between 35 and 40 percent of children ages 14 and under who accidentally lock themselves in a trunk will die due to hyperthermia (heat stroke) and/or asphyxiation (suffocation).
To prevent unintentional trunk entrapment, teach your children not to play in and around vehicles. Always lock the vehicle and keep the keys away from children. Carefully watch your young children when they are around vehicles. Keep rear fold-down seats closed inside the vehicle.

Certain automobile manufacturers now include escape releases or sensor systems in trunks. However, small children may not know how to operate these."

http://www.rushcopley.com/HealthContent/Adult/pediatrics/motosafe.htm

[lavenderdreams79]

I believe "finger pointing" is the last thing that would help get the word out about the dangers of the trunks of cars. All finger pointing does is place accusations of blame on the parents. EDUCATION is the only way to effectively let people know. Using this tragedy as an example makes the risk all the more real. But I think the only thing parents would learn by the finger pointing of hearing how the parents actions are being questioned is that if there is an accident of any sort involving their child, they better watch out because the public will place all kinds of blame and call them negligent.

I don’t think these parents are to blame. I heard on the news about a woman who was arrested for putting her kids in the trunk because there weren’t enough seats in the car for everyone. Now if this would have been her children in this situation, then YES she was negligent. But the parents in this case did not put their children in their trunk or let them think that it was somehow ok for them to play in it (not that we have been told anyway). And until we hear something like that, I believe they are not at fault. These poor people are hurting enough right now, they don’t need people they don’t even know and will never know exist, sitting on their computers or talking to their neighbors for the purpose of chastising them. They need the support and sympathy of people now, they’ve lost their children.

[DuckFeet]

This tragedy was not an isolated incident making negligence rather than a freak accident at fault. I think the more finger pointing the better at geting the word out about the simple dangers of trunk entrapment.

]

Shall we join together and pour salt into the parents' wounds also?

No parent can watch their child ,absolutely , positively, 100% of the time.
Some parents, however, are spared the permanent grief, from a temporary
distraction. If ALL chldren who were out of their parents sight for more than
2 minutes died, there would be no children left on earth. Compassion.
Lets have compassiuon for the parents who are not as lucky as the others.

[MlazyV]

WebSleuths is is not iin the business of grief counseling, that is not the nature of the forum. Considering one of the boys was mentally challenged it was even more important he be watched to prevent him from harming himself or others.

I certainly am not accusing the parents of murder and sympathy for the parents of any lost child is universal but I feel even more sympathy for the boys themselves. They lost a heck of alot more than their negligent parents. And with one parent already chomping at the bit ready to sue the police you need to realize they are asking for blame to be placed.

[Bobbisangel]

WebSleuths is is not iin the business of grief counseling, that is not the nature of the forum. Considering one of the boys was mentally challenged it was even more important he be watched to prevent him from harming himself or others.

I certainly am not accusing the parents of murder and sympathy for the parents of any lost child is universal but I feel even more sympathy for the boys themselves. They lost a heck of alot more than their negligent parents. And with one parent already chomping at the bit ready to sue the police you need to realize they are asking for blame to be placed.



No, we are not in the business of grief counseling but we dam well can show some compassion for 3 sets of parents who have lost their children through an accident that could happen to any one of us.

Save your sympathy for the boys and give it to the parents. Those little guys are in heaven but the parents are in hell. The parents are the ones left to try and cope with the horrible loss of their children. It will be the parents who throughout the years will remember all that their children lost...not the boys.
The parents need prayers and lots of them...not accusations of negligence.

In the aftermath of his son's death this father is talking about blame and possibly suing the PD. Don't be so quick to judge this man who is consummed with pain. Given time he will probably drop the idea...when he can think clearly.

I think of the mother of the little five year old boy who is in such horrific pain that she wants to commit suicide. Should the public encourage her....help her along because she wasn't watching her child every second? Shall we send her the message that she was a horrible mother and it is all her fault and maybe she should just end her life as a form of punishment????

As far as that mentally challanged little boy goes....who says that he was so challanged that he needed to be watched every second?? Maybe he was a little slow but so what. It didn't sound to me that he wasn't capable of getting in there and playing with the little boys...didn't sound like he was a danger to himself or others.

And one last thing. It was said that one of the fathers didn't live with his son.
It sounded like it might have been his fault because he didn't live with his son and there was mention of lack of finances and poverty. We don't know what kind of a father this man was. We don't know that he didn't spend quality time with his son....payed support monthly, etc. Where do you get your ideas from? Do you know anything about these parents at all. Parents divorce and a lot of the time it is better for the children. If mom and dad don't get along it is the kids who get hurt the most.

We may not be in the grief counseling business here but neither are we in the
business of harshly judging people who have lost their little boys. We aren't the judge and jury of these people. We don't know them or anything about them...what they have or haven't got...how they live...if they read to their children at night, etc, etc. These parents need our support...not our condemnation.

[Beyond Belief]

Geez, I hate to see all these posts sounding like this.

After I saw the brick fronts on those homes, I really can remember being in the those neighborhoods during my life in NJ. It really was a quaint old neighborhood and the photos still looked nice.

This is such a sad time. I only wish the best for the families.
God will see them through this.

[lostfaith]

[QUOTE=Bobbisangel]No, we are not in the business of grief counseling but we dam well can show some compassion for 3 sets of parents who have lost their children through an accident that could happen to any one of us.

Save your sympathy for the boys and give it to the parents. Those little guys are in heaven but the parents are in hell. The parents are the ones left to try and cope with the horrible loss of their children. It will be the parents who throughout the years will remember all that their children lost...not the boys.
The parents need prayers and lots of them...not accusations of negligence.

In the aftermath of his son's death this father is talking about blame and possibly suing the PD. Don't be so quick to judge this man who is consummed with pain. Given time he will probably drop the idea...when he can think clearly.

I think of the mother of the little five year old boy who is in such horrific pain that she wants to commit suicide. Should the public encourage her....help her along because she wasn't watching her child every second? Shall we send her the message that she was a horrible mother and it is all her fault and maybe she should just end her life as a form of punishment????

As far as that mentally challanged little boy goes....who says that he was so challanged that he needed to be watched every second?? Maybe he was a little slow but so what. It didn't sound to me that he wasn't capable of getting in there and playing with the little boys...didn't sound like he was a danger to himself or others.

And one last thing. It was said that one of the fathers didn't live with his son.
It sounded like it might have been his fault because he didn't live with his son and there was mention of lack of finances and poverty. We don't know what kind of a father this man was. We don't know that he didn't spend quality time with his son....payed support monthly, etc. Where do you get your ideas from? Do you know anything about these parents at all. Parents divorce and a lot of the time it is better for the children. If mom and dad don't get along it is the kids who get hurt the most.

We may not be in the grief counseling business here but neither are we in the
business of harshly judging people who have lost their little boys. We aren't the judge and jury of these people. We don't know them or anything about them...what they have or haven't got...how they live...if they read to their children at night, etc, etc. These parents need our support...not our condemnation.[/QUOTE

I agree totally with you! God forbid anything happens to ones own child, because, someone will manage to find fault with your parenting abilities, no matter how great a parent one is!!!!!!!!!!!!! In certain cases, obviously the parent deserves it, I dont feel in this case this scorn toward the parents is deserved!

I would have applauded your post, but I could not find the icon :crazy:

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I certainly am not accusing the parents of murder and sympathy for the parents of any lost child is universal but I feel even more sympathy for the boys themselves. They lost a heck of alot more than their negligent parents. And with one parent already chomping at the bit ready to sue the police you need to realize they are asking for blame to be placed.I don't think that anyone's loss here can be measured up against anyone else's loss. All of the parties involved have suffered immeasurably devastating losses from which they will never recover. As far as I can see, those people loved those kids as much as we love ours. My heart truly hurts for all of them. And the only parent we've heard chomping at the bit is Anibal's father who apparently wasn't a part of his son's day-to-day life when he had the chance. Not that he deserves this pain - none of them do - but maybe it is just his anger and his regret that are causing him to say the things that he is.

[Mygirlsadie]

I don't think that anyone's loss here can be measured up against anyone else's loss. All of the parties involved have suffered immeasurably devastating losses from which they will never recover. As far as I can see, those people loved those kids as much as we love ours. My heart truly hurts for all of them. And the only parent we've heard chomping at the bit is Anibal's father who apparently wasn't a part of his son's day-to-day life when he had the chance. Not that he deserves this pain - none of them do - but maybe it is just his anger that is causing him to say the things that he is.
Jerseygirl I know your in the state so you get to hear alot more about this than we do so I was wondering what this talk is about the mother and suicide? She tried to commit it? And Anibals father isnt he the one who they were looking for on day 2 of the search to bring in for questioning?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Jerseygirl I know your in the state so you get to hear alot more about this than we do so I was wondering what this talk is about the mother and suicide? She tried to commit it? And Anibals father isnt he the one who they were looking for on day 2 of the search to bring in for questioning?Hi sadie. What I've heard is that the mother has expressed suicidal thoughts. And I believe you're right ... Anibal's father is the one that lives in Philly, if I'm not mistaken.

I haven't heard anything since this morning since I was out most of the day but I will let you know if I hear anything else. I was doing a web search just now, and found a headline (but no article), saying that this afternoon's press conference was cancelled. I'll post any new items I find or anything I hear on tomorrow morning's news.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

ABC News: Father Can't Fathom N.J. Car Trunk Deaths (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=884304&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

... Anibal Cruz, 38, said the family assumed that police looked in the trunk of the car that was parked just steps from where the boys were last seen playing.

"That was the first place to look," Cruz said. "You can look through the windows and check inside. That is simple. Maybe they should have looked in the trunk..."

In addition to the formal review, City Council President Angel Fuentes said the council will hold a hearing on the matter Thursday.

"I know my colleagues and I have questions," he said...

On Sunday, Police Lt. Mike Lynch said officials felt many of the same frustrations as Cruz, but said it was premature to speculate.

"Whatever the circumstances are, I can tell you that the efforts of those searchers and those police officers and everyone involved were 100 percent committed," he said...

************************************************** **********
Dangerous statement in bold - we've already heard from family members that they never even thought to check the trunk. Now we're hearing that they assumed that the police had done it. The change regarding this detail is concerning.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

ABC News: Father Can't Fathom N.J. Car Trunk Deaths (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=884304&page=2)

... A joint funeral service for the boys was tentatively scheduled for Wednesday in Camden.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

City mourns three dead boys; reported news conference cancelled (phillyBurbs.com) (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/104-06262005-507510.html)

As this city mourns the death of three boys trapped in a car trunk, a news conference reported to be held by lawyers representing families of two of the dead boys was abruptly cancelled...

A news conference had been scheduled for Sunday, but was abruptly cancelled when a Camden city official said families had not approved of the event.

"Obviously, this was planned without the families involvement," said Yolanda Aguillar De Neely, an assistant to the Camden mayor.

A woman who said she's the sister of Alba Cruz, the mother of one of the dead boys, also spoke quickly, saying the family was not holding a news conference and that the person who called the press event did not represent the family...

************************************************** *********
Well, it's not sounding good. Lawsuits are definitely in the works. I firmly believe that no one is to blame in this. But I worry that if these families try to sue, they will be brought through the wringer. We will hear about the absent father, the "lack of supervision", the dilapidated car with the broken trunk, the knowledge that one of the boys played in cars, the fact that it took 3 hours for the families to call police, the fact that the mother of one of the boys had never even met the other two mothers prior to their sons disappearing together, the mother napping while her 6 year-old was playing at a home with adults that she had never met, etc. I truly hurt for these families but I must say that it will make me a bit angry to find out that they're suing the police.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

3 boys' deaths called accidental: South Florida Sun-Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-achildren26jun26,0,78563.story?coll=sfla-news-nationworld)

... Chief Edwin J. Figueroa of the Camden Police Department said that ... he did not know why the trunk had been overlooked. "I can't guess what went on in the individual minds of the police officers out there," Figueroa said.

The oversight, which the police concede may have led to the boys' deaths, has outraged residents of Camden, where out-of-control drug crime has claimed the lives of many young people. The city, one of the poorest and most dangerous in America, always seems to have an image of despair hanging over it, residents said. Last week, however, they defied that by bonding together to help find the boys.

Now, many feel let down.

"It's so frustrating, because maybe something could have been done sooner," said Maria Rivera, a Camden mother. "Maybe this didn't have to happen." According to what investigators have pieced together, the three boys -- Anibal Cruz, 11, Daniel Agosto, 6, and Jesstin Pagan, 5 -- were playing in the side yard of Anibal's home in the Cramer Hill neighborhood around 5 p.m.

Anibal's mother, Elba Nelly Cruz, was watching the children from the front porch and then went inside to cook dinner. When she went back out a half-hour later, the boys were gone. One of the boys -- Sarubbi would not say who -- liked to "play with the knobs and switches" in the car, which had been parked in a bed of weeds next to the house for several weeks because it had a brake problem...

On Friday evening, Daniel's father, David Agosto, went to the car with a relative who was looking for jumper cables.

As soon as he opened the trunk, he shouted out in horror. Cousins, aunts, uncles and others ran to him. They tried to pull Agosto away, but he kept screaming.

The neighborhood soon shook with wails and sobs. Some people writhed on the sidewalk, pounding the concrete with their hands.

[Mygirlsadie]

City mourns three dead boys; reported news conference cancelled (phillyBurbs.com) (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/104-06262005-507510.html)

As this city mourns the death of three boys trapped in a car trunk, a news conference reported to be held by lawyers representing families of two of the dead boys was abruptly cancelled...

A news conference had been scheduled for Sunday, but was abruptly cancelled when a Camden city official said families had not approved of the event.

"Obviously, this was planned without the families involvement," said Yolanda Aguillar De Neely, an assistant to the Camden mayor.

A woman who said she's the sister of Alba Cruz, the mother of one of the dead boys, also spoke quickly, saying the family was not holding a news conference and that the person who called the press event did not represent the family...

************************************************** *********
Well, it's not sounding good. Lawsuits are definitely in the works. I firmly believe that no one is to blame in this. But I worry that if these families try to sue, they will be brought through the wringer. We will here about the absent father, the "lack of supervision", the dilapidated car, the knowledge that one of the boys played in cars, the fact that it took 3 hours for the families to call police, etc. I truly hurt for these families but I must say that it will make me a bit angry to find out that they're suing the police.
I have to say it will make me a bit angry as well. The police tried they worked exhausted with lack of sleep using all their resources to help find these boys. I will wait and see what comes of this but I think going this route will prove even more painful for the families. The waiting 3 hours to call the police still BUGS the crap out of me. Sometimes I think people have this weird thought of the police being somewhat 'magical' or 'un-human' but its not the case at all they are human just like the parents who also didnt think to look in that trunk. And like someone posted before I think the false sightings of the boys threw the police off.

[mysteriew]

Just pointing out- one news report said that Dad opened the trunk due to smelling an odor, now he is saying he went to get jumper cables.

It is entirely possible that by the time the LE were called, the boys had already died. It doesn't take long for a car trunk to heat up and the temp gets very high. There is an article on car trunks earlier in the thread. With the delay in calling the police dept. it may have already been too late for anything more than recovery by the time they got there.
Edited to add: One of the stages of grief is anger- and these families will be looking for someone to place that blame on. Because if the LE and searchers aren't to blame for this accident, then they will have to carry the guilt alone. It is not that I am blaming the families, it is that the guilt is natural in this type of death.

[luthersmama]

I have to say it will make me a bit angry as well. The police tried they worked exhausted with lack of sleep using all their resources to help find these boys. I will wait and see what comes of this but I think going this route will prove even more painful for the families. The waiting 3 hours to call the police still BUGS the crap out of me. Sometimes I think people have this weird thought of the police being somewhat 'magical' or 'un-human' but its not the case at all they are human just like the parents who also didnt think to look in that trunk. And like someone posted before I think the false sightings of the boys threw the police off.


And again IF THE TRUNK WAS LOCKED, THE POLICE COULD NOT OPEN IT.

The family waits three hours, doesn't check the trunk themselves, then blames the police for not checking the LOCKED trunk?????

I know the families feel bad, but PLEASE don't blame the police.

[Mygirlsadie]

And again IF THE TRUNK WAS LOCKED, THE POLICE COULD NOT OPEN IT.

The family waits three hours, doesn't check the trunk themselves, then blames the police for not checking the LOCKED trunk?????

I know the families feel bad, but PLEASE don't blame the police.
I agree. I also still wonder how the boys got in there in the first place if the trunk was locked?

[Beyond Belief]

I am wondering whose idea it was to get into that trunk.


not to blame, just wondering.

[ewwwinteresting]

Well, it's not sounding good. Lawsuits are definitely in the works. I firmly believe that no one is to blame in this. But I worry that if these families try to sue, they will be brought through the wringer. We will hear about the absent father, the "lack of supervision", the dilapidated car with the broken trunk, the knowledge that one of the boys played in cars, the fact that it took 3 hours for the families to call police, the fact that the mother of one of the boys had never even met the other two mothers prior to their sons disappearing together, the mother napping while her 6 year-old was playing at a home with adults that she had never met, etc. I truly hurt for these families but I must say that it will make me a bit angry to find out that they're suing the police.
I totally agree with you JG. If the family is suing the police for such a tragic ACCIDENT, they are fair game. The facts are, as you stated: the children were unsupervised, the car was right there in the yard, the family didn't check it, they waited for three houses to call police (which the kids possible could have already been deceased by then) and they didn't tell police that one of the children had a history of playing in cars. It is all about money. The children aren't even buried yet and they already are pointing fingers, have a lawyer and threatening lawsuits. My sympathy for these families just went out the window.

[lostfaith]

City mourns three dead boys; reported news conference cancelled (phillyBurbs.com) (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/104-06262005-507510.html)

As this city mourns the death of three boys trapped in a car trunk, a news conference reported to be held by lawyers representing families of two of the dead boys was abruptly cancelled...

A news conference had been scheduled for Sunday, but was abruptly cancelled when a Camden city official said families had not approved of the event.

"Obviously, this was planned without the families involvement," said Yolanda Aguillar De Neely, an assistant to the Camden mayor.

A woman who said she's the sister of Alba Cruz, the mother of one of the dead boys, also spoke quickly, saying the family was not holding a news conference and that the person who called the press event did not represent the family...

************************************************** *********
Well, it's not sounding good. Lawsuits are definitely in the works. I firmly believe that no one is to blame in this. But I worry that if these families try to sue, they will be brought through the wringer. We will hear about the absent father, the "lack of supervision", the dilapidated car with the broken trunk, the knowledge that one of the boys played in cars, the fact that it took 3 hours for the families to call police, the fact that the mother of one of the boys had never even met the other two mothers prior to their sons disappearing together, the mother napping while her 6 year-old was playing at a home with adults that she had never met, etc. I truly hurt for these families but I must say that it will make me a bit angry to find out that they're suing the police.

maybe I am reading the article incorrectly, but I thought I read it as the news conference was cancelled because it was not approved by the family. And did it not quote the aunt of one of the boys as saying that the lawyers that called for the news conf. did not represent the family. I, too, hope that they do not try to sue. It was a tragic accident!

[lostfaith]

My sympathy for these families just went out the window.


Not Mine! Like an earlier poster said, the guilt and anger these people are feeling at this time must be extremely painful and enormous. Give them time to get past the shock, and then maybe, hopefully, they will see things differently. I still am not entirely convinced from these articles that they have contacted lawyers to sue, the article mentions attorneys, but the aunt says they do not represent them. We shall see.

[KatherineQ]

This story haunts me. I almost lost TWO of my boys, locked into rental cars in separate instances.

There are some cars that when you shut the trunk, the child can't open it from the inside, and there are cars that when you lock them with the remote thingy, a child who was still inside can't open the door and get out.

Both boys got locked in rental cars in the heat of summer, mid day, years apart and if I didn't have an angel on my shoulder both those days, I'd have lost two sons. Both were at the point of almost needing to call an ambulance when they were discovered - which, in the summer, is about 10 minutes.

Trunks, and cabin spaces of cars MUST be easy to open from the inside. I can't imagine why some cars are made where you can't get out if the car is locked. It's like a death chamber.

[Mygirlsadie]

I am wondering whose idea it was to get into that trunk.


not to blame, just wondering.

http://www.nj.com/images/newsflash/masthead_small.gifNewsFlash Home (http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf) | More Jersey News (http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?storylist=jersey)

Sorrow, anger as city grieves for three boys dead in a car trunk

6/26/2005, 8:26 p.m. ET By CHRIS NEWMARKER
The Associated Press CAMDEN, N.J. (AP) — As authorities began investigating why police failed to search a car trunk where three missing boys were found dead, the father of one of the children said Sunday he could not understand how they died so close to home.

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http://www.nj.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.nj.com/images/spacer.gif ("")Anibal Cruz, 38, said the family assumed that police looked in the trunk of the car that was parked just steps from where the boys were last seen playing.

"That was the first place to look," Cruz said. "You can look through the windows and check inside. That is simple. Maybe they should have looked in the trunk."

Officials said the boys suffocated after climbing into the trunk on their own. Their bodies were found by David Agosto, whose 6-year-old son Daniel had gone missing along with 5-year-old Jesstin Pagan and 11-year-old Anibal Cruz.

Authorities have said if any law enforcement officials broke department rules in the search they would be disciplined. Police and prosecutors were expected to issue a report within 30 days on the handling of the search.

In addition to the formal review of the search, City Council President Angel Fuentes said the council also will hold a hearing on the matter at its regular meeting Thursday.

"I know my colleagues and I have questions," said Fuentes, whose district includes the area where the boys died.

Cruz also blamed the state Division of Youth and Family Services for his son's death, saying he had called the agency several times in the past year to tell them his son, who was mentally disabled, was wandering away from home into the neighborhood.

However, he said DYFS did nothing to solve the problem.

"If he had been put in a safe place, maybe this would have never happened," Cruz said.