Raven's Health

[SouthEastSleuth]

I have heard a RUMOR that Raven has been treated for mania, (from what I can tell from reading, mania is also known as manic depressive order, and also as bi-polar disorder…. With all sorts of variations inherent in a particular diagnosis. Someone with better medical knowledge can jump in and clarify some of that….).

From what I’ve HEARD, at least in the past Raven was on medication to help control the manic times. (No idea what exact medication). From what I gather from reading a little on all of this, the medications can be very helpful at times, if taken regularly… Without medication being taken, the swings can be dramatic – one minute the person is "up," and excitable to the point of seeming out of control…the next minute, the person could be "down," to the point of being clinically depressed. With meds, often there is at least some level of stability…

"The best way to avoid these mood swings is to get treatment for your bipolar. But unfortunately, periods of hypomania, mania, or depression aren’t completely preventable. Even people who always take their medication and are careful with their health can still have mood swings from time to time." (WebMD)

I have no idea IF Raven was still on medication, or not. Also, I don’t know anything about his history in this regard, i.e., when this started, how long he was on meds, if he was still being treated, etc.

If you read some of the literature, it’s fairly striking. Below is an excerpt about mania from WebMD – http://my.webmd.com/content/article/102/106777.htm

"The dramatic mood swings of bipolar disorder do not follow a set pattern. Depression does not always follow mania. A person may experience the same mood state several times -- for weeks, months, even years at a time -- before suddenly having the opposite mood. Also, the severity of mood phases can differ from person to person."
"Mania: The fast ideas start coming too fast and there are far too many ... overwhelming confusion replaces clarity ... you stop keeping up with it … memory goes. Infectious humor ceases to amuse. Your friends become frightened ... everything is now against the grain ... you are irritable, angry, frightened, uncontrollable, and trapped."

"If you have three or more of the mania symptoms below most of the day -- nearly every day -- for one week or longer, you may be having a manic episode:


Excessive happiness, hopefulness, and excitement
Sudden changes from being joyful to being irritable, angry, and hostile
Restlessness, increased energy and less need for sleep
Rapid talk, talkativeness
Distractibility
Racing thoughts
High sex drive
Tendency to make grand and unattainable plans
Tendency to show poor judgment, such as deciding to quit a job
Inflated self-esteem or grandiosity -- unrealistic beliefs in one’s ability, intelligence, and powers; may be delusional
Increased reckless behaviors (such as lavish spending sprees, impulsive sexual indiscretions, abuse of alcohol or drugs or ill-advised business decisions)
Some people with bipolar disorder become psychotic, hearing things that aren’t there. They may hold onto false beliefs, and cannot be swayed from them. In some instances, they see themselves as having superhuman skills and powers -- even consider themselves to be god-like."

I read through some of these symptoms, and I feel like I’m reading a summary of so many of the things we’ve learned about Raven – grand plans, poor judgment, lavish spending, inflated self esteem.
And the consequences of manic episodes can be alarming –

"The Appeal of Mania –

When people with bipolar disorder are depressed, they almost always know that something is wrong. Nobody likes feeling that way.

But it’s different for people who are hypomanic or manic. Often, they don’t think anything is wrong. Or if they notice a difference in their mood and personality, they think it’s an improvement.

Mania and hypomania can be seductive. You might feel more energized, creative, and interesting. You might be able to get extraordinary amounts of work done. So what’s the problem?

The fact is that manic phases often turn destructive. Some consequences of a manic episode can’t be undone. You can wipe out your savings account. You can have affairs that ruin your marriage. You can lose your job. Most dangerous of all, mania can make you do things that risk your life or the lives of others.

Although hypomania or mania can feel good at the moment, in the long run, you’ll be happier, healthier, more productive, and more successful if you can keep a stable mood."

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/102/106804.htm
Keeping in mind that any mental illness effects not only the person, but often family, friends, etc. Mania is serious business, obviously. And I certainly hope that IF Raven suffered from this, that in fact he was on medications, and continued to be, as long as necessary. These manic episodes must be terrifying - to the person, and those around him/her. And without some sort of treatment, whether therapy, medications, or a combination, it seems there can often be serious consequences.

Again, I report all of this information primarily as RUMOR, with regards to Raven. If anyone reading has any additional info to substantiate, that would be great!

[JerseyGirl]

Mania and hypomania can be seductive. You might feel more energized, creative, and interesting. You might be able to get extraordinary amounts of work done.I just MAJORLY got the creeps, remembering the flurry of web activity and reflection about his life that Raven posted in the days before Janet's murder.

ETA: Is anyone able to verify if Raven has been clinically labeled as a manic? Has he ever been treated/medicated for such?

[lauriej]

..we're on the same wavelength on that JG....i thought the same thing when i read that...

[ewwwinteresting]

"The dramatic mood swings of bipolar disorder do not follow a set pattern. Depression does not always follow mania. A person may experience the same mood state several times -- for weeks, months, even years at a time -- before suddenly having the opposite mood. Also, the severity of mood phases can differ from person to person."
"Mania: The fast ideas start coming too fast and there are far too many ... overwhelming confusion replaces clarity ... you stop keeping up with it … memory goes. Infectious humor ceases to amuse. Your friends become frightened ... everything is now against the grain ... you are irritable, angry, frightened, uncontrollable, and trapped."

"If you have three or more of the mania symptoms below most of the day -- nearly every day -- for one week or longer, you may be having a manic episode:

Excessive happiness, hopefulness, and excitement
Sudden changes from being joyful to being irritable, angry, and hostile
Restlessness, increased energy and less need for sleep
Rapid talk, talkativeness
Distractibility
Racing thoughts
High sex drive
Tendency to make grand and unattainable plans
Tendency to show poor judgment, such as deciding to quit a job
Inflated self-esteem or grandiosity -- unrealistic beliefs in one’s ability, intelligence, and powers; may be delusional
Increased reckless behaviors (such as lavish spending sprees, impulsive sexual indiscretions, abuse of alcohol or drugs or ill-advised business decisions)
Wow, this does sound like someone we know. I'm just thinking IF Raven was being treated for mania, was off his meds, and killed Janet....would this be a case for the "twinkie defense"??

[JerseyGirl]

[/list]Wow, this does sound like someone we know. I'm just thinking IF Raven was being treated for mania, was off his meds, and killed Janet....would this be a case for the "twinkie defense"??I doubt it since he's an adult and is capable of being responsible for taking his medication. I can see, however, that if he was on meds at the time and did this, and then admitted it immediately afterwards, a jury might be more sympathetic during sentencing. JMO.

[ewwwinteresting]

I doubt it since he's an adult and is capable of being responsible for taking his medication. I can see, however, that if he was on meds at the time and did this, and then admitted it immediately afterwards, a jury might be more sympathetic during sentencing. JMO.
IF he admitted it immediately afterwards, showed remorse, etc., I too could see a jury be sympathetic BUT now with his actions afterward, no way!

[ItsMe]

SES this goes along with what I have been told about him. Of course I would still have to call it rumor because the only contact that I've had with him since our initial contact was through my friend telling me that he said hi and me telling my friend to tell him I said hi. So, I can't say for a fact that what I was told was what he really said. However, my friend did have direct contact with him and I see no reason that they would make up anything about him (never have about anyone). We would talk after they would talk. Most of their communication was on IM. And, when he talked about his struggle with depression.......my friend & I thought him to be bipolar (I like diagnosing people). He told them that he would go on & off his meds just like your account of a manic says. This is the main reason that my friend questioned his innocence from day one. There has been no contact from Raven to my friend since a while before Janet's murder, but I would imagine that if he were in Utah that he would contact them. Of course, maybe he's afraid that they think he did it???

[ewwwinteresting]

There has been no contact from Raven to my friend since a while before Janet's murder, but I would imagine that if he were in Utah that he would contact them. Of course, maybe he's afraid that they think he did it???
It would be interesting to see how many of Raven's friends thinks he did it. We all know Raven and his family think he is innocent....hmmm....I guess I can't say that. What if some of Raven's family think he is guilty and either are afraid to say or would protect him from a crime?

[ItsMe]

It would be interesting to see how many of Raven's friends thinks he did it. We all know Raven and his family think he is innocent....hmmm....I guess I can't say that. What if some of Raven's family think he is guilty and either are afraid to say or would protect him from a crime?
The thing is (I know you all will think I'm an idiot), if he were to at least step up and say I did not do this. I would never do anything like this and I want to hunt down the guy that did this.......I would be inclined to believe him. I seriously get ill when I even think that he possibly did have anything to do with it. I almost threw-up the moment I heard that Janet had been murdered & I know if I was told that Raven had done it for sure, there would be no stopping the puke from coming up. I want to believe that Raven is innocent. I don't want to think that anyone I have ever met & liked, mind you, could do something like this. So, it wouldn't take much for me to defend him. However, there is no one saying anything and his wife is dead and he is the only link to the crime. All the research that has been done doesn't even suggest that it could be someone else. I am still holding out hope that somehow they will make an arrest and I can either be sick or try to help find the perp that did this!!

[Jenifred]

The thing is (I know you all will think I'm an idiot), if he were to at least step up and say I did not do this. I would never do anything like this and I want to hunt down the guy that did this.......I would be inclined to believe him. Unfortunately, I think that Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson have made it difficult for other innocent parties to step up and say "I'm innocent." But I do agree with you that it would have done a lot in his favor if he had come out and said it.

And if he's guilty, he's been quite lucky by not having this in the media limelight.

[ewwwinteresting]

The thing is (I know you all will think I'm an idiot), if he were to at least step up and say I did not do this. I would never do anything like this and I want to hunt down the guy that did this.......I would be inclined to believe him. I seriously get ill when I even think that he possibly did have anything to do with it. I almost threw-up the moment I heard that Janet had been murdered & I know if I was told that Raven had done it for sure, there would be no stopping the puke from coming up. I want to believe that Raven is innocent. I don't want to think that anyone I have ever met & liked, mind you, could do something like this. So, it wouldn't take much for me to defend him. However, there is no one saying anything and his wife is dead and he is the only link to the crime. All the research that has been done doesn't even suggest that it could be someone else. I am still holding out hope that somehow they will make an arrest and I can either be sick or try to help find the perp that did this!!
Of course we wouldn't think you are an idiot:blowkiss: To tell you the truth, i think there would be many people that would believe him if he was claiming his innocence and attempting to find the person who did this. I don't think anybody wants to believe Raven did this. But as you stated he really is the only link to the crime and neither he nor his family have publicly claimed his innocense. As someone previously posted, maybe they are saying more with their silence? Sorry ItsMe...think you have to get the vomit bags ready!:sick:

[bluegirl]

I just MAJORLY got the creeps, remembering the flurry of web activity and reflection about his life that Raven posted in the days before Janet's murder.

ETA: Is anyone able to verify if Raven has been clinically labeled as a manic? Has he ever been treated/medicated for such?
Yes he was clinically labeled as manic. I know he also didn't like taking his meds. He would stop taking them for periods of time.

[lauriej]

Yes he was clinically labeled as manic. I know he also didn't like taking his meds. He would stop taking them for periods of time.
...hmmm..lots of interesting info on this site regarding bipolar manic depression, and why people go off their meds...why they should not....etc..

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/bipolar/treatment/compliance/people_2.asp

"Impaired awareness of illness is the single biggest reason why individuals with bipolar disorder do not take medication.
"Without medication, the person's symptoms become worse. This often makes them more vulnerable to being victimized and committing suicide. It also often leads to rehospitalization, homelessness, being incarcerated in jail or prison, and violent acts against others because of the untreated symptoms. "

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/bipolar/treatment/compliance/anosognosia.asp

[Jenifred]

I'm still not completely convinced about this whole bi-polar stuff. I understand that it is real, and I don't mean to belittle the diagnosis in any way, but I think that this is setting him up for an easy way out. The "oh, I was off my meds" excuse. Hopefully, when this comes up in front of a jury, people will be able to see through the excuse.

ETA: IMO, in a manic swing he'd be less likely to committ murder. I think that it would be in the depression phase that he's lash out. It sounds like the manic part is when people feel high, excessively happy, outgoing, willing to take risks, not do things like, hmmm...kill your wife.

[Moxie]

I'm still not completely convinced about this whole bi-polar stuff. I understand that it is real, and I don't mean to belittle the diagnosis in any way, but I think that this is setting him up for an easy way out. The "oh, I was off my meds" excuse. Hopefully, when this comes up in front of a jury, people will be able to see through the excuse.
I believe that when it comes up before a jury, a jury will treat him as an adult who is responsible for taking his medications, and if he chose not to take his medication, then they would hold him liable for his actions.

[bluegirl]

I'm still not completely convinced about this whole bi-polar stuff. I understand that it is real, and I don't mean to belittle the diagnosis in any way, but I think that this is setting him up for an easy way out. The "oh, I was off my meds" excuse. Hopefully, when this comes up in front of a jury, people will be able to see through the excuse.


ETA: IMO, in a manic swing he'd be less likely to committ murder. I think that it would be in the depression phase that he's lash out. It sounds like the manic part is when people feel high, excessively happy, outgoing, willing to take risks, not do things like, hmmm...kill your wife.

No I agree it's not a way out. I have a family member who died because of being bi-polar. I can assure you it is very real. I know that people that are on meds don't feel like themselves. It makes them a lot worse to be on them and then stop taking them and then on again.

[ewwwinteresting]

No I agree it's not a way out. I have a family member who died because of being bi-polar. I can assure you it is very real. I know that people that are on meds don't feel like themselves. It makes them a lot worse to be on them and then stop taking them and then on again.
BG: How long ago was Raven diagnosed? Was this something Raven talked about? Did his family know about his condition?

[JerseyGirl]

ETA: IMO, in a manic swing he'd be less likely to committ murder. I think that it would be in the depression phase that he's lash out. It sounds like the manic part is when people feel high, excessively happy, outgoing, willing to take risks, not do things like, hmmm...kill your wife.I don't think that this is necessarily true. The mood swings tend to become more pronounced over time, and the symptoms during those mood swings tend to become more severe. I don't know the facts off the top of my head regarding this but from what I thought I understood, the manic part oftentimes feels more like frenzy than elation and high energy. And in that manic frenzy, terrible decisions can be made.

[juliagoulia]

You're right, JG. That's why nearly all suicides of Bi-Polar individuals occur during a manic phase rather than during a depressive phase. It is a highly agitated state.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. The mood swings tend to become more pronounced over time, and the symptoms during those mood swings tend to become more severe. I don't know the facts off the top of my head regarding this but from what I thought I understood, the manic part oftentimes feels more like frenzy than elation and high energy. And in that manic frenzy, terrible decisions can be made.

[JerseyGirl]

You're right, JG. That's why nearly all suicides of Bi-Polar individuals occur during a manic phase rather than during a depressive phase. It is a highly agitated state.Thanks, other JG. :) You worded it perfectly. That's what I thought I remembered reading somewhere.

[Jenifred]

You're right, JG. That's why nearly all suicides of Bi-Polar individuals occur during a manic phase rather than during a depressive phase. It is a highly agitated state.
That's suicide, what about murders? Maybe there's a difference between hurting yourself and hurting others?

[bluegirl]

BG: How long ago was Raven diagnosed? Was this something Raven talked about? Did his family know about his condition?

For several years. I know he didn't like for people to know. Yes his family definitely knew about it.
I he was not the same person when he was off his meds.

[juliagoulia]

That's suicide, what about murders? Maybe there's a difference between hurting yourself and hurting others?
I am not a doctor and no statistic is 100%, but it's the same thing. During a depressive phase, most bi-polars simply don't have the requisite energy to act out against themselves or others. I know it sounds strange that someone who is "up" would kill themselves or hurt others...but that's generally how it works.

[newkid]

And in that manic frenzy, terrible decisions can be made.
Things that make sense to an individual in a manic phase are not things that would seem reasonable to the average person. I have known an individual in a manic phase who buried their clothes because they felt they no longer needed them. It made perfect sense to that person at the time. Another individual walked out of their job and disappeared, surfacing several months later in Sweden.

I can see how someone in a manic phase might murder his wife and have it make perfect sense to him at the time. Still, having bipolar disorder in NO way excuses the actions of these individuals.

[newkid]

That's why nearly all suicides of Bi-Polar individuals occur during a manic phase rather than during a depressive phase.
Just curious about the statistics, the studies I've found on medline state just the opposite. Do you have a link? Maybe I'm using the wrong search parameters? Thanks

[juliagoulia]

Just curious about the statistics, the studies I've found on medline state just the opposite. Do you have a link? Maybe I'm using the wrong search parameters? Thanks
A friend of mine is bipolar and I was quoting the statistical information his doctor provided. However, there is lots of supporting info out there. I've listed two below.

Keep in mind there are different kinds of Bipolar and no one here has posted with specific information about which type Raven had, or to what degree he suffered from it. The information we have is that he had a bad temper, was often a bad sport (charged with assaulting a referee, church b-ball incident, etc.) which makes me think his manic episodes (if any) were peppered with hostility and anger.

I guess without confirmation and an official diagnosis, all of this is O/T...but here goes:

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZX77O3DMC&sub_cat=46

People with bipolar disorder may consider suicide during manic as well as depressive episodes. ... and people whose mania is characterized by intense anger and grandiosity are not only at risk for suicide, they also are more likely to harm someone else.


http://my.webmd.com/content/article/102/106781.htm?z=4249_00000_0000_f2_03
Under risk factors for suicide:
A sudden switch from being very sad to being very calm or appearing to be happy

[JerseyGirl]

Things that make sense to an individual in a manic phase are not things that would seem reasonable to the average person. I have known an individual in a manic phase who buried their clothes because they felt they no longer needed them. It made perfect sense to that person at the time. Another individual walked out of their job and disappeared, surfacing several months later in Sweden.
Frighteningly bizarre. So very, very sad.

I can see how someone in a manic phase might murder his wife and have it make perfect sense to him at the time. Still, having bipolar disorder in NO way excuses the actions of these individuals.I totally agree with both points. Well said.

[JerseyGirl]

I guess without confirmation and an official diagnosis, all of this is O/T...but here goes:

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZX77O3DMC&sub_cat=46

People with bipolar disorder may consider suicide during manic as well as depressive episodes. ... and people whose mania is characterized by intense anger and grandiosity are not only at risk for suicide, they also are more likely to harm someone else.Interesting information, julia. Thanks for the links.

Intense grandiosity, huh? Ducati, VX ... heck, even his underwear had to come from REI. God forbid he should buy the store brand at Target. :rolleyes: Grandiosity even if it meant digging that financial hole deeper and deeper, to the point of not even being able to pay rent.

If Raven didn't commit this horrible crime, I certainly hope that he is taking his medications at this point, and working with a counselor who can help him to hopefully get his life under control. You can almost see the bottom falling out as you read about his life and his decisions.

[JerseyGirl]

Terminatrixator, I hope you don't mind but I'm placing your link here as well. I think that this might be a good place to gather any information we find on mania as it might relate to this case.

Thanks again for the link! :)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/318/7193/1240.pdf (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/318/7193/1240.pdf)

[cappuccina]

....the dude, with the help of a lawyer, is working on his insanity defense...

...makes me ill...

[ewwwinteresting]

....the dude, with the help of a lawyer, is working on his insanity defense...

...makes me ill...
Even if raven is not guilty, it seems insane the way he is acting after the murder. Not saying anything, not crying out for help in finding the monster that did this to his wife, not putting up a reward for any information leading to the arrest of the murderer, having no memorial site set up for the mother of his son, and moving not only from the state but across to the other side of the country (far away from any investigation)!

[newkid]

Even if raven is not guilty, it seems insane the way he is acting after the murder. Not saying anything, not crying out for help in finding the monster that did this to his wife, not putting up a reward for any information leading to the arrest of the murderer, having no memorial site set up for the mother of his son, and moving not only from the state but across to the other side of the country (far away from any investigation)!
My only thought is that if Raven did not kill his wife, he's trying not to act like Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson. Then again, if Raven did do it, maybe he's trying not to act like Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson.

[chicoliving]

The comparison to Hacking and Peterson reminds me that all of these murders happened in the home.....Janet is the only victim of these three that was found in the home although all three homes were searced and evidence obtained from all three. The Peterson case was all circumstantial evidence, no direct evidence like in Hacking and Abaroa.......

Our poster midnite who helped us in the Peterson case with CA law said something about the body and the need to remove it and hide it is where they all get caught up....its not the killing that poses the problem but the removal and disposal......that pesky body is not so easy to hide in such a manner that it won't be found.

Hmmmm this is a new way for me to look at this case..

[JerseyGirl]

Our poster midnite who helped us in the Peterson case with CA law said something about the body and the need to remove it and hide it is where they all get caught up....its not the killing that poses the problem but the removal and disposal......that pesky body is not so easy to hide in such a manner that it won't be found.That's an interesting observation. Had Hacking or Peterson not moved the bodies, I wonder how long it would have taken for their arrests, or if they might not have gathered enough evidence to arrest them at all.

[terminatrixator]

One thing about Janet NOT being moved and the other cases, look at Mark Hacking, he had to get rid of his bed, his downfall, he was suppose to be out looking for his wife yet he went out to purchase a new bed - why? The blood, of course.

Janet was stabbed, hence blood, blood trail, etc. If Janet ended up reported missing, the police come in, you can scrub all day, but you are going to miss some trace evidence of the blood, which would point back to the fact she was murdered in her home.

Another thing, how to move the body with Kaiden there, and not alert suspicion.

Laci was strangled, no blood, easier to move.

I think someone knows a heck of a lot more about this than they are saying.

[L L & S]

My only thought is that if Raven did not kill his wife, he's trying not to act like Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson. Then again, if Raven did do it, maybe he's trying not to act like Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson.
I had to read this post three times to make it work in my head.... LOL... but I tend to totally agree with it.