Do You Think Duncan Wanted to Get Caught?

[HappyChic727]

I can't imagine that he would take Shasta into public places knowing that her face has been on the news and on posters all over America - not to mention, going to a Denny's right in Shasta's home town. I think he wanted to get caught. Maybe he really didn't want to kill her and was getting close to doing so??? I think he did kill Dylan though. Even if the remains are not Dylans, they are some other child's remains and that's just sad. But poor Shasta - did you hear the Aunt say on Nancy Grace last night that the kids at school called them "Salt and Pepper" because they were always together. I hope she gets all the counselling she needs and plenty of comfort from her relatives . . . not to mention her loved ones in Heaven and of course, God.

[mysteriew]

I think he had to have known he would get caught. I don't know what his reasoning was. Now that people know who to look for, people in St. Regis are finding him on their surveillance cameras. He shopped in St. Regis but did not have the kids with him. Suddenly he shows up in St. Regis with Shasta? And she wasn't recognized, so 6 hours later he takes Shasta to a diner a short distance from her home, the scene of the murders? Yes, I think he was wanting to get caught. I just don't know why.

[femepetite]

...i dunno about that. i think this man is a sick delusional pervert who thought he wouldn't get caught. i think he thought no one would notice them. i think he was arrogant enuff to think he was above it all; after all, they didn't have a CLUE, did they?

...people like this creep make the mistake of thinking that everyone on the earth thinks the way they do: he has NO respect for children - they are just something to use and throw away. he will think that everyone else will feel that way too - she's just a little kid and no one cares. this man is too sick to want to be caught. he's not just your garden variety of child molester. he's a cold-blooded murderer. they think differently than normal people do.

[CaliKid]

I think it might have been a combination of being tired of running and hoping that by going in to Denny's so late at night he wouldn't be found out vs. daring the community to notice him and Shasta.

[BobF]

I personally think this guy is a lot like Charles Manson in regards to being raised in the system and he isn't bothered by the idea that he would return to prison. I think he actually wanted to return to prison and finds it easier to live in prison.

[Idaho SoccerFreak]

Personally, I think that Duncan wanted to get caught. I was in Coeur d'Alene on the day before Shasta was found. Because of the holiday weekend, there was a LOT more people than normal in town, and gas stations and restaraunts were packed. I know everyone is saying that Duncan came out during the night to make it less likely to be noticed. However, I think he did it because he was MORE likely to be noticed. If he was to have gone into public during the day, with so many people in town, it would have been more likely that they would have been overlooked. I don't know just my feelings.

[Lili]

I am curious to his reaction when he saw the police coming to Denny's. Was there any report of what he did? I read in one article that he saw the police car pull into the parking lot. Did he just sit there? Say anything?

I went to camp over the weekend and missed the news from after the initial reports. I also wondered to myself if he might have planned on dropping her off somewhere that she might be found. Maybe he didn't want to kill her, but wanted to return her so he could take off again.

[wicket]

I just think Duncan is arrogant. The way he was standing in that store, reading the newspaper, as if he didn't have a care in the world. He felt he was smart enough to be in plain sight of the world yet fly just under the radar. There's a part of me that feels when he was in that store, while Shasta roamed the aisles, he was saying to himself 'here I am and you have no idea; Shasta is right here with me and yet you do not see'. I doubt he wanted to get caught - he felt he did not deserve to be caught. :behindbar

[cherylereed]

maybe he was just hungry & she was too? did he forget where he did the crime? i would assume there are drive thru's there open at 2 in the morning?
scary that there are monsters like him out there. the pain he inflicts on the victims flesh, but what about emotional/mental damage he leaves behind to family and society itself. a lot of us are feeling emotions because of him. exactly what he wanted to do. hopefully there can be something positive from it- parents watch and love their kids more. families and neighbors watch out for each other.

[JDB]

I am curious to his reaction when he saw the police coming to Denny's. Was there any report of what he did? I read in one article that he saw the police car pull into the parking lot. Did he just sit there? Say anything?

I went to camp over the weekend and missed the news from after the initial reports. I also wondered to myself if he might have planned on dropping her off somewhere that she might be found. Maybe he didn't want to kill her, but wanted to return her so he could take off again.


Lili: A freind of mine (HEARSAY) Said he saw an interveiw with the waitress.I heard the police showed up while he and Shasta were in the bathroom. The police called the waitress out and she told them at what table they were out. And the Duncan had asked for the check.When he came out the police told him they need to talk to him. One policeman went to talk to Shast and then told the waitress to sit by her. As he went out and cuff him. The waitress asked wht her name was and was told Shasta. . And Shasta grabbed the waitress and held her tight. Again this is what I heard no link.

[mysteriew]

Lili: A freind of mine (HEARSAY) Said he saw an interveiw with the waitress.I heard the police showed up while he and Shasta were in the bathroom. The police called the waitress out and she told them at what table they were out. And the Duncan had asked for the check.When he came out the police told him they need to talk to him. One policeman went to talk to Shast and then told the waitress to sit by her. As he went out and cuff him. The waitress asked wht her name was and was told Shasta. . And Shasta grabbed the waitress and held her tight. Again this is what I heard no link.

Did your friend say what his reaction was to the cops showing up? I mean did he look like he wanted to run, did he look suprised, or anything? I have already heard that he did not offer resistance.

[JDB]

Did your friend say what his reaction was to the cops showing up? I mean did he look like he wanted to run, did he look suprised, or anything? I have already heard that he did not offer resistance.
Nope but I have a gut feeling he wanted to be caught. My prayer as harsh as this might sound Shasta and Dylan were the only ones since he was released.He did say there was no struggle.

[mysteriew]

Nope but I have a gut feeling he wanted to be caught. My prayer as harsh as this might sound Shasta and Dylan were the only ones since he was released.He did say there was no struggle.

From what has been seen in the blog, we don't don't think that Shasta and Dylan were the only ones. And it is possible that Dylan was not the first child murdered.

[Gracelin]

I have my own thought as to why he brought her back to town..In the video in the store,
She looked nervous not scared. Like she was afraid what would happen if
someone recognized her.. Would he kill her daddy? Was he bringing her back to
kill another family member to gain stronger control of her? she has
young cousins.
This is one sick boy , thank god he is off the streets. With him anything is possible.
I suppose we will never know the real why. I don't think he will ever talk..

[Lili]

Thanks for the reply JDB.
So apparently there was no struggle when they arrested him. That is good.

[Idaho SoccerFreak]

Maybe he didn't want to kill her, but wanted to return her so he could take off again.
I said this in another thread, but I'm pretty sure he did not want to return her. The reason I feel this way is because in order to get from Kellogg, where he bought gas, to Coeur d'Alene (where she was found), you drive DIRECTLY past the Groene house on I90. Also, there are much simpler ways to return her without the risk of getting caught.

[Jesstexas]

The Big Idea with Donny Deutche is on right now on CNBC and they're discussing this case - they just finished interviewing the waitress and now they're discussing Duncan and his blog.

[Linda7NJ]

Do I think he wanted to be caught? Absolutely not

Whatever is twisted in this mans brain to allow him to do these depraved things and enjoy them also is involved in his thinking he would & could get away with it. My guess, frontal lobe involvement. Most sociopaths don't easily learn from their mistakes and are very impulsive. His high level of intelligence demonstrated in his college courses is in stark contrast to his reckless impulsive predatory decisions. This IMO shows frontal lobe issues and the reason these monsters can never be rehabilitate.

[kahskye]

maybe he was just hungry & she was too? did he forget where he did the crime? i would assume there are drive thru's there open at 2 in the morning?
scary that there are monsters like him out there. the pain he inflicts on the victims flesh, but what about emotional/mental damage he leaves behind to family and society itself. a lot of us are feeling emotions because of him. exactly what he wanted to do. hopefully there can be something positive from it- parents watch and love their kids more. families and neighbors watch out for each other.
I don't have the link, but I thought I had read that Duncan only ordered water and Shasta got an appetizer. I also read that they both used the restrooms. Talk about control he had on Shasta to let her use the restroom and know she'd return to him. I'm still confused as to why he stopped unless it was just to test the waters in public again. If he wanted control of the media, maybe in his mind he wanted to take Shasta out w/ him, kind of like a hostage/standoff situation and was building up towards it.

[mysteriew]

for the locals
Do you suscribe to the spokesmand revew?

I googled Joseph E. Duncan under the news and came up with this article that I would love to see.

DUNCAN HISTORY: By age 17 he fit definition of a 'sexual ...
The Spokesman Review (subscription), WA - 20 hours ago
... Duncan was the fourth of five children born to Joseph E. Duncan Jr. and Lillian Mae Duncan. His parents were married in 1957 in rural Burnham, Pa. ...

But I don't suscribe to the spokesman review and don't plan to ever suscribe.

[Wayne]

Do I think he wanted to be caught? Absolutely not

Whatever is twisted in this mans brain to allow him to do these depraved things and enjoy them also is involved in his thinking he would & could get away with it. My guess, frontal lobe involvement. Most sociopaths don't easily learn from their mistakes and are very impulsive. His high level of intelligence demonstrated in his college courses is in stark contrast to his reckless impulsive predatory decisions. This IMO shows frontal lobe issues and the reason these monsters can never be rehabilitate.
I agree with you, Linda7NJ. Do I think he wanted to be caught? Absolutely not.

[Ghostwheel]

for the locals
Do you suscribe to the spokesmand revew?

I googled Joseph E. Duncan under the news and came up with this article that I would love to see.



But I don't suscribe to the spokesman review and don't plan to ever suscribe.
Try this link
http://www.spokesman.com/breaking/story.asp?submitDate=200575121116

[mysteriew]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/mysteriew/proud/butterflyflty.jpg Ghostwheel!
Very interest article with some new info. That mother of his sounds like another pervert. Or at least very much a weirdo!

[SewingDeb]

He wakes her up and she teaches him disco dancing? Very strange.

[Rocky]

has anyone checked if any children were kidnapped during the time he was down in KC?

[Rocky]

I always said Westerfield brought Danielle back into the neighborhood Saturday morning, thinking about dropping her off and running...

I think duncan was thinking the same thing...

things got out of hand when he had to kill Dylan...

I think he was tired and ready to turn himself in when he was caught...

[Wayne]

I always said Westerfield brought Danielle back into the neighborhood Saturday morning, thinking about dropping her off and running...

I think duncan was thinking the same thing...

things got out of hand when he had to kill Dylan...

I think he was tired and ready to turn himself in when he was caught...
If he had wanted to be caught, he would have talked up a storm like Westerfield did - trying to justify his movements.

Duncan clamed up tight as a clam shell. He's concealing his secrets - his underground. He had no intention of giving himself up.

[Rocky]

If he had wanted to be caught, he would have talked up a storm like Westerfield did - trying to justify his movements.

Duncan clamed up tight as a clam shell. He's concealing his secrets - his underground. He had no intention of giving himself up.

he's doing it to be as famous as Manson...

he wants the state to hire him a million dollar lawyer like Feldman... :rolleyes:


he's been through it before, and knows why he shouldn't talk

[HappyChic727]

I am curious to his reaction when he saw the police coming to Denny's. Was there any report of what he did? I read in one article that he saw the police car pull into the parking lot. Did he just sit there? Say anything?

I went to camp over the weekend and missed the news from after the initial reports. I also wondered to myself if he might have planned on dropping her off somewhere that she might be found. Maybe he didn't want to kill her, but wanted to return her so he could take off again.

The word is that he was arrested without incident. I agree with the poster above who said that maybe he was tired of running as well.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Do I think he wanted to get caught? In a word, noooo....

[nanandjim]

I can't help but think that he did want to be caught. Why would he come back to Shasta's hometown and go to public places? If he wanted to get away, why didn't he just drop Shasta off and leave? If he had done this, he may never have been caught (unless police had identified him through fingerprints in the house).

[mysteriew]

I can't help but think that he did want to be caught. Why would he come back to Shasta's hometown and go to public places? If he wanted to get away, why didn't he just drop Shasta off and leave? If he had done this, he may never have been caught (unless police had identified him through fingerprints in the house).

LE had no idea about him. He did not show up in fingerprints or DNA. There were no leads or tips on this guy. More than likely if Duncan had walked away with Shasta (and if she hadn't told anyone) or if he had killed Shasta- he would quite literally have gotten away with murder.

[HappyChic727]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Shasta was scared to death to say anything to anyone when she was in public places because of the threats issued to her by this mental case. I don't know if she was old enough to think to herself that maybe someone would notice her and get help for her. I just don't know how anyone could think that he didn't want to get caught if he brought this little girl to a Denny's in the town that she lived in, even though it was the wee hours of the morning. There were still waitresses and cooks and hostesses and patrons in the place . . . surely, someone could recognize this little face that everyone has been looking for. He didn't even change her appearance in any way. I think he wanted to get caught. I'm so glad he did. I just wish it hadn't been too late for Dylan. I guess as time goes by, Shasta will reveal more and more information. I remember kind of alot of things from when I was little and some were traumatic. I remember being shooed out of my grandmother's house when my aunt was very sick and dying and I was probably about 5 years old. I remember going to get my brother from the hospital when I was 4 years old. I remember getting a splinter in my foot and a shiner on my nose when I was 4 years old or younger. I remember my cousin broke my favorite toy when I was about 4 years old and I especially remember most of the events surrounding my uncle's death when I was 9 - he was killed in Vietnam. I remember being so afraid that his ghost was under my bed and then my Mom moved my bed away from the wall and cut my favorite doll's hair into a crewcut on the same day. I was devastated and so, so afraid. I couldn't sleep and went out to the living room in a sweat and my Dad rubbed my back for me. Of course, none of these things are as traumatic as what she has gone through, but hopefully, through therapy, everything will be drudged up from her little mind and therefore, not suppressed. I don't know why I went into all that but just a thought that maybe we will have more answers in the future in this matter.

[Mygirlsadie]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Shasta was scared to death to say anything to anyone when she was in public places because of the threats issued to her by this mental case. I don't know if she was old enough to think to herself that maybe someone would notice her and get help for her. I just don't know how anyone could think that he didn't want to get caught if he brought this little girl to a Denny's in the town that she lived in, even though it was the wee hours of the morning. There were still waitresses and cooks and hostesses and patrons in the place . . . surely, someone could recognize this little face that everyone has been looking for. He didn't even change her appearance in any way. I think he wanted to get caught. I'm so glad he did. I just wish it hadn't been too late for Dylan. I guess as time goes by, Shasta will reveal more and more information. I remember kind of alot of things from when I was little and some were traumatic. I remember being shooed out of my grandmother's house when my aunt was very sick and dying and I was probably about 5 years old. I remember going to get my brother from the hospital when I was 4 years old. I remember getting a splinter in my foot and a shiner on my nose when I was 4 years old or younger. I remember my cousin broke my favorite toy when I was about 4 years old and I especially remember most of the events surrounding my uncle's death when I was 9 - he was killed in Vietnam. I remember being so afraid that his ghost was under my bed and then my Mom moved my bed away from the wall and cut my favorite doll's hair into a crewcut on the same day. I was devastated and so, so afraid. I couldn't sleep and went out to the living room in a sweat and my Dad rubbed my back for me. Of course, none of these things are as traumatic as what she has gone through, but hopefully, through therapy, everything will be drudged up from her little mind and therefore, not suppressed. I don't know why I went into all that but just a thought that maybe we will have more answers in the future in this matter.
I seriously think this guy thought he could get away with it and bringing her around town not disguising her was a sort of power trip for this murderer. I agree about remembering things traumatic thats how it is for me also I remeber being 5yrs old and my grandma was also dying and they kept her in bed me my brother and my cousin use to stand behind the wall and peek in at the time it was terrifying to see her so sick and dying when your little your mind doesnt understand how we do as adults.That poor little girl unfortunately unless they can somehow erase her memory (can they do that?) will never forget this.

[Jesstexas]

I have no idea whether he wanted to get caught or not. On the one hand, if you're seriously trying to elude law enforcement, bringing your captive back to the town where you kidnapped her from and taking her out in public is the absolute LAST thing you'd do.

On the other hand, I can envision reasons why he might have brought her back, even though he didn't necessarily want to get caught. Maybe she had been so cooperative with him that he'd decided to just keep her - but there was one certain thing she really wanted from her house. (I have children that age, and they have favorite stuffed animals - they get very depressed when we're traveling and they forget them at home). Someone from the area posted here that there's been a sheriff's car parked in the driveway of Shasta's house 24/7, so maybe he came back with a purpose, but didn't realize until they got here that it was out of the question. It's late at night, you can't do what you came to do, Shasta's hungry, so you take her to get something to eat.

[HappyChic727]

I seriously think this guy thought he could get away with it and bringing her around town not disguising her was a sort of power trip for this murderer. I agree about remembering things traumatic thats how it is for me also I remeber being 5yrs old and my grandma was also dying and they kept her in bed me my brother and my cousin use to stand behind the wall and peek in at the time it was terrifying to see her so sick and dying when your little your mind doesnt understand how we do as adults.That poor little girl unfortunately unless they can somehow erase her memory (can they do that?) will never forget this.

Oh, that must have been horrible for you little kids to endure. Things are so different when we are little. Those feelings never leave you.

I don't think that they can get Shasta to fully deal with everything now but I truly believe that the more it comes out, the better. One of the doctors on one of the shows was saying that she needs to be told that she's a good little girl and that she didn't do anything wrong and that's so true. To think what her Mother in Heaven is thinking . . . and her brother or brothers . . . you think life is going okay and then . . . . this. We had a tragedy in my area on Sunday. A young girl was driving her two friends and following a caravan of kids to go rafting or something and she lost control of her car and drove over the cement median and her car caught on fire. She hit another car with two elderly ladies. All five people died. The young driver had just accomplished so many things, including a movie about Barbie - I think it was called The Barbie Diaries. She was a model and a writer. She may have been speeding. Haven't we all done that. Her obituary said that she went to Heaven to dance for God. Doesn't that just make you cry? Again, here were some kids just going along in life, having fun and then boom, everything is changed. That's why you have to live each day to its fullest.

[newtv]

If he had wanted to be caught, he would have talked up a storm like Westerfield did - trying to justify his movements.

Duncan clamed up tight as a clam shell. He's concealing his secrets - his underground. He had no intention of giving himself up.
i never buy that any of these perps want to be caught- no way..all I wonder is why he did not kill the little girl-it makes no sense to me..had he killed her he would have been scott free-I mean no witnesses to anything..

[newtv]

LE had no idea about him. He did not show up in fingerprints or DNA. There were no leads or tips on this guy. More than likely if Duncan had walked away with Shasta (and if she hadn't told anyone) or if he had killed Shasta- he would quite literally have gotten away with murder.
I agree-he would have gotten away with 5 murders and no one would be the wiser..there were no leads what-so-ever.
But I dont think he wanted to be caught-and I dont know why he did not kill her-but it had nothing to do with wanting to be caught-though he would not have stopped there. Its a compulsion and there would have been more victims.
What I do not get is why he did not just snatch a boy off the street-why go kill parents and so on- how did he even know they were in the house, etc?/

[newtv]

he's doing it to be as famous as Manson...

he wants the state to hire him a million dollar lawyer like Feldman... :rolleyes:


he's been through it before, and knows why he shouldn't talk
i think thats possible-to be infamous vs nothing..if he wanted to drop her off and run he wouldnt have gone to the store with the camera on him-right there he would be caught because Sh. would retrace the steps for the police.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

i never buy that any of these perps want to be caught- no way..all I wonder is why he did not kill the little girl-it makes no sense to me..had he killed her he would have been scott free-I mean no witnesses to anything..

I agree. I haven't figured out what he was doing with Shasta still alive. Why was she spared, for as long as she was...(thank goodness). I don't have a concrete "thought" or opinion on that yet (I'm absorbing everyone else's for now...)

But another option, if you will, would also be that he was keeping a hostage for leverage at a later point. If he was so angry at society, and was going to take out his anger on society as he alluded to in his blog, maybe he wasn't done with his "plans" yet. (?) As the Sheriff also alluded to, Duncan was very well planned on this original incident with the Groene's family. Was he a "planner" rather than working off of impulse? Fortunately, the Denny's situation concluded as it did, and it was done without incident. :woohoo:

[mysteriew]

I agree. I haven't figured out what he was doing with Shasta still alive. Why was she spared, for as long as she was...(thank goodness). I don't have a concrete "thought" or opinion on that yet (I'm absorbing everyone else's for now...)

But another option, if you will, would also be that he was keeping a hostage for leverage at a later point. If he was so angry at society, and was going to take out his anger on society as he alluded to in his blog, maybe he wasn't done with his "plans" yet. (?) As the Sheriff also alluded to, Duncan was very well planned on this original incident with the Groene's family. Was he a "planner" rather than working off of impulse? Fortunately, the Denny's situation concluded as it did, and it was done without incident. :woohoo:

You mean suicide by cop. That is my theory. He took her out in St Regis and no one recognized her. So, then he had to take her back to her hometown. He was probably tired of hiding out. He knew he had no options. She was the bait. And also probably the one he wanted to carry the story. To tell society and prove to them what a monster society made of him. I think he wanted to be a myartar.

[nanandjim]

...He did not show up in fingerprints...
I don't understand this. Isn't there a national database with this information? It's not like this is his first offense.

[dannyodie]

I agree. I haven't figured out what he was doing with Shasta still alive. Why was she spared, for as long as she was...(thank goodness). I don't have a concrete "thought" or opinion on that yet (I'm absorbing everyone else's for now...)

But another option, if you will, would also be that he was keeping a hostage for leverage at a later point. If he was so angry at society, and was going to take out his anger on society as he alluded to in his blog, maybe he wasn't done with his "plans" yet. (?) As the Sheriff also alluded to, Duncan was very well planned on this original incident with the Groene's family. Was he a "planner" rather than working off of impulse? Fortunately, the Denny's situation concluded as it did, and it was done without incident. :woohoo:
very well put, good post, I certainly don't think he was done just yet with his demented plans either.. what puzzles me is how he found their home? from what I understand it is somewhat isolated from view? he either just happened up on it and made out that he had car problems to justify himself being there so he could see who all lived there, or he used the campgrounds very near there property and scouted around to see what was around and happen to notice the bbq on sunday? and then made his plans to do the crime. why he held onto shasta could very well be a thought in his mind to use her for a trap for younger boys later or was planning on handing her off to " big al " his prison buddy which was released about the same time he was, big al, was a convicted child rapist too, and the ignorant judicial system has put him out on the streets. I would expect him to abduct a young girl before this is all over. they should let inmates out of jail which have not done serious crimes and place them on probation just to make extra room for violant sexual offenders. I feel duncan had it in for young boys, he actually only liked males, but used shasta as a token of his crimes. duncan was most likely a victim of a sexual offense during his early age, his father or someone close to him must have abused him. I certainly know he will not get out on this one. he is done with, I look to see him standing on death row in the near future.

[concernedperson]

I don't understand this. Isn't there a national database with this information? It's not like this is his first offense.

Maybe he wore latex gloves.

[leann coburn]

This Duncan demon is evil, but not stupid. Genius and insanity are so close in these evil (EVIL) people. I am sure he kept her for a hostage in case he needed one in the future.
Psychologically, there is a serious circuit in his warped mind that may have protected Shasta. Abnormal psychiatry would say she reminded him of his three older sisters or perhaps this mysterious doctor's daughter. He just couldn't do it.
JMO

If you buy the ticket, you have to take the ride.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

You mean suicide by cop. That is my theory. He took her out in St Regis and no one recognized her. So, then he had to take her back to her hometown. He was probably tired of hiding out. He knew he had no options. She was the bait. And also probably the one he wanted to carry the story. To tell society and prove to them what a monster society made of him. I think he wanted to be a myartar.


Suicide by cop could have been one ending...but I wasn't narrowing down my possibilities to just that. He could have had quite a scene in the media if he got himself in a bind and had the time to "use" her...can you imagine the uproar if he had been cornered somewhere, and held her as hostage?! Oh my goodness... But I'm agreeing with you, in that he might have wanted to go down and out in a blaze of "martyr glory" so to speak.

[close_enough]

This Duncan demon is evil, but not stupid. Genius and insanity are so close in these evil (EVIL) people. I am sure he kept her for a hostage in case he needed one in the future.
Psychologically, there is a serious circuit in his warped mind that may have protected Shasta. Abnormal psychiatry would say she reminded him of his three older sisters or perhaps this mysterious doctor's daughter. He just couldn't do it.
JMO

If you buy the ticket, you have to take the ride.

i agree....there's a very fine line betw genius & insanity in "evil" people...i could tell he's not stupid, from reading his blog, but at the same time, he's warped...(not right in the head)

[DEPUTYDAWG]

This Duncan demon is evil, but not stupid. Genius and insanity are so close in these evil (EVIL) people.


Count me in as another that agrees with this statement. Unfortunately.

:twocents:

[ISPTRAX]

Personally, I think he wanted to be caught to end his torment and in his mind he was "allowing" Shasta to live. She had served his purpose and wasn't a little boy, anyway. If you read his blog, he told his "friend" Jerry (who was obviously just a cyber-friend and probable fellow-Pedo) he said he would be famous "soon"... but hopefully "not too soon". So he could get his ya-ya's out before going down. He talked about his demons and how he needed help, yadda yadda yadda. This "person" has been a demon and freak of nature upon his birth. At first, I thought he was raped repeatably by his father at a young age. Doesn't sound that way. It was "incestuous" relationships with his FEMALE family members at a young age. I think he was born a deviant. Always a deviant. God only knows how many other victims are out there... both raped and/or murdered. Oh, yeah... and he was probably out of money and felt he had nothing to lose than get caught.

[Idaho SoccerFreak]

what puzzles me is how he found their home? from what I understand it is somewhat isolated from view?
No, the Groene home is visible from I90.

[CaliKid]

I can only imagine how Shasta must have felt about passing her home in his jeep.

[felder]

I seriously think this guy thought he could get away with it and bringing her around town not disguising her was a sort of power trip for this murderer.

I agree. He wanted to see how much he could get away with.

Comments from his weblog;

"I hope to complete this journal before I die (soon) or turn myself in (I still might do that, I think it is the right thing, but of course, I'm not sure)." 5/13/05

"If they (his demons) win then a lot of people will be badly hurt, and they have had their way before, so I know what they can do." 05/05

"To be more specific, I am scared, alone, and confused, and my reaction is to strike out toward the perceived source of my misery, society. My intent is to harm society as much as I can, then die." 05/11/05

"What is really interesting about this whole way of looking at things is that a psychologist might call me sociopathic because I am rationalizing the fact that I am insensitive to how others feel." 07/04

"The Fifth Nail is the nail that was meant to peirce the Heart of Christ and end his suffering." 06/04

[Liz]

Bumping this thread up since someone posted they were so interested in this topic; but have shown no interest since.

I seriously think this guy thought he could get away with it and bringing her around town not disguising her was a sort of power trip for this murderer.

I agree. He wanted to see how much he could get away with.

I agree with felder, and MyGirlSadie.

I don't believe for a minute that JED was trying to get caught or trying to return Shasta back home.

Do you all remember that the video from Kellogg showed a police cruiser pulled through the Conoco Gas Station/Convenience Store, and JED ducked behind the gas pump?

Recalling what both Amber Deahn and Nick Chapman (from Denny's) had to say to reporters about how JED got a look of panic on his face, when he saw the police car pull up outside; and immediately called or motioned for his check.

Those actions sure aren't indicative of someone wanting to get caught, imo.

[Openmind]

.

Recalling what both Amber Deahn and Nick Chapman (from Denny's) had to say to reporters about how JED got a look of panic on his face, when he saw the police car pull up outside; and immediately called or motioned for his check.

Those actions sure aren't indicative of someone wanting to get caught, imo.
This is the first time I have read that Duncan paniced when the police arrived. That puts a new spin on things. Shasta was very lucky. If he was showing off, you have to wonder how long he would play that game before he go tired of it and moved on to new vicitms.

[Wayne]

Bumping this thread up since someone posted they were so interested in this topic; but have shown no interest since.

I agree with felder, and MyGirlSadie.

I don't believe for a minute that JED was trying to get caught or trying to return Shasta back home.

Do you all remember that the video from Kellogg showed a police cruiser pulled through the Conoco Gas Station/Convenience Store, and JED ducked behind the gas pump?

Recalling what both Amber Deahn and Nick Chapman (from Denny's) had to say to reporters about how JED got a look of panic on his face, when he saw the police car pull up outside; and immediately called or motioned for his check.

Those actions sure aren't indicative of someone wanting to get caught, imo.
I agree with you Liz.

IMO, Duncan did not want to get caught. He was not returning to give himself up. He was not returning to set Shasta free.

IMO, Duncan was over confident fueled by earlier experience at the convenience store where no one recognized Shasta, and that over confidence led to his downfall five hours later at the Denny's.

[kline]

I dont think he wanted to be caught.
As Ive said before I think the five hours between Kellogg and Denny's
was spent reconitering another target in CDA and I think the sick freak wanted Shasta to be there to see it just like she had to see everything that happened to Dylan.
Dont forget this is the same guy who got off waving the hammer he killed her mother with under her nose.
He may have fantasized about going down in a hail of gunfire at some point but its one thing to dream about and another to actually face the prospect of getting drilled by a few 9mm hollowpoints courtesy of a CDA deputy.
On the other hand it may be pointless anyway to read too much into what he did or didnt do...
after six weeks of drinking and glutting his perverted appetites he may have been operating on impulse alot by this point in time.

[Openmind]

I dont think he wanted to be caught.
As Ive said before I think the five hours between Kellogg and Denny's
was spent reconitering another target in CDA and I think the sick freak wanted Shasta to be there to see it just like she had to see everything that happened to Dylan.
Dont forget this is the same guy who got off waving the hammer he killed her mother with under her nose.
He may have fantasized about going down in a hail of gunfire at some point but its one thing to dream about and another to actually face the prospect of getting drilled by a few 9mm hollowpoints courtesy of a CDA deputy.
On the other hand it may be pointless anyway to read too much into what he did or didnt do...
after six weeks of drinking and glutting his perverted appetites he may have been operating on impulse alot by this point in time.
Interesting ideas. Truthfully, I don't think Duncan had the courage to do anything but bully small children. He's too self obsessed to hurt himself in any way, and he would never care about anyone else except how to victimize them to his mean purposes.

I have rethought my idea that Duncan was wanting to get caught and decided probably not, but I'm still not sure about him coming back to get another child in the same community. I think he might have been showing off to Shasta and himself how unstoppable he was. I think her life was hanging on a thin thread. I do agree he probably enjoyed abusing Dylan in front of Shasta. Perfect way to torture both children. Even if Duncan had kidnapped another little boy to abuse in front of Shasta, there would not have been the connection between the children like between the brother and sister. Sympathy but not love. But then Duncan is so heartless he might not have noticed.

[mysteriew]

I dont think he wanted to be caught.
As Ive said before I think the five hours between Kellogg and Denny's
was spent reconitering another target in CDA and I think the sick freak wanted Shasta to be there to see it just like she had to see everything that happened to Dylan.
Dont forget this is the same guy who got off waving the hammer he killed her mother with under her nose.
He may have fantasized about going down in a hail of gunfire at some point but its one thing to dream about and another to actually face the prospect of getting drilled by a few 9mm hollowpoints courtesy of a CDA deputy.
On the other hand it may be pointless anyway to read too much into what he did or didnt do...
after six weeks of drinking and glutting his perverted appetites he may have been operating on impulse alot by this point in time.

I think he expected to be caught, but I think that he wanted to have more control. I didn't hear, but I don't think he was armed in the diner was he? I think his dream was to be out in the parking lot, and armed, and go down in an exchange of gunfire. He didn't want to be caught weaponless in the diner. The fact that he was inside and weaponless, meant that he couldn't provoke the firefight. He immediately felt trapped and that is the reaction you see. The same thing in the gas station, but he got away with it there. He was reacting to the fact that he wasn't in control, he didn't have his weapon, and actually to be faced with an officer- he reverted to prison mentality- make it easier on yourself and do what you are told.
And like you said, it is one thing to dream about it- it is another thing to be faced with hard, cold reality.

[Openmind]

I think he expected to be caught, but I think that he wanted to have more control. I didn't hear, but I don't think he was armed in the diner was he? I think his dream was to be out in the parking lot, and armed, and go down in an exchange of gunfire. He didn't want to be caught weaponless in the diner. The fact that he was inside and weaponless, meant that he couldn't provoke the firefight. He immediately felt trapped and that is the reaction you see. The same thing in the gas station, but he got away with it there. He was reacting to the fact that he wasn't in control, he didn't have his weapon, and actually to be faced with an officer- he reverted to prison mentality- make it easier on yourself and do what you are told.
And like you said, it is one thing to dream about it- it is another thing to be faced with hard, cold reality.
Just out of curiosity, where was Shasta going to be in this gun battle. Would she have been a shield or just a victim to the bullets? Was she along just to draw attention?

[Wayne]

I think he expected to be caught, but I think that he wanted to have more control. I didn't hear, but I don't think he was armed in the diner was he? I think his dream was to be out in the parking lot, and armed, and go down in an exchange of gunfire. He didn't want to be caught weaponless in the diner. The fact that he was inside and weaponless, meant that he couldn't provoke the firefight. He immediately felt trapped and that is the reaction you see. The same thing in the gas station, but he got away with it there. He was reacting to the fact that he wasn't in control, he didn't have his weapon, and actually to be faced with an officer- he reverted to prison mentality- make it easier on yourself and do what you are told.
And like you said, it is one thing to dream about it- it is another thing to be faced with hard, cold reality.
I guess we interpret actions differently ... and I respect the opinion of the posters who believe Duncan expected to be caught or was somehow surrendering.

IMO, however, the opposite has been proven. The convenience store and Dennys, Duncan was not ready or willing to surrender even if he was faced with LE and their guns drawn.

This weekend, I have re-played a video tape I made during the morning's coverage of LE's announcement that Joseph Duncan was in custody. (I have about five hours of video tapes from news reports that morning July 2nd beginning hours before the first news conference.) One question similar to this was posed to a reporter in CdA before the first news conference that morning. The reporter replied back that from LE sources who had some evidence already confiscated from the Jeep, a reported registered sex offender and Shasta Groene were passing through CdA along I-90 when Shasta said she was hungry and wanted to stop to eat. (The "registered sex offender" turned out to be Joseph Duncan.) (And it was reported that Shasta had ordered a "kids meal" and Duncan had ordered a lite snack - and both had eaten their food. IMO, perhaps Shasta recognized the Denny's and she thought someone there might recognize her - and that is why she was suddenly "hungry" and maybe even mentioned the "kids meal" there so Duncan felt he had limited options - stop there or drive-on, with Shasta possibly doing something that may bring attention to him.)

IMO, when facing LE officers with guns drawn, yes, Duncan knew his time was up. But he did not appear to give himself up peacefully - even struggling a bit with LE as LE placed restraints on his wrists (from one reporter's interview of patrons and workers).

A reporter said it appeared they were moving to another campsite. And that maps seen in the Jeep confirmed that suspicion - that they were moving to another camp site in Eastern Oregon. (The reporter showed a close-up zoom of the vehicle and a map on the dash board that showed areas off I-84 in Eastern Oregon as an apparent destination.) There were also maps of CdA seen in the Jeep.

Two reporters said LE found cash (reported by one reporter at about $3,000 in bills and by another reporter at about $2,000 in bills) in an envelope in the Jeep.

And once taken into custody, it was reported at the first news conference that Joseph Duncan refused to talk to LE and refused to cooperate with LE - that he had lawyered up. And one reporter asked about a report that the suspect had been roughed up by LE at the Denny's and the reply was "no comment." IMO, if he had been "roughed up by LE" it was likely he had tried escaping or resisting. Again, these are actions not of someone wanting to surrender or give themselves up.

If Duncan had really wanted to surrender, IMO, he could have driven into a police station and surrendered. Or he could have stopped an LE vehicle. And if Duncan was suicidal, he could have brought the shot gun with him and pointed it at approaching LE officers - an act that would have brought him face-to-face with his demons once and for all and spared us the cost of a trial. But Duncan did neither.

It remains my opinion that Joseph Duncan was far from giving himself up. That it was the heroic actions of the patrons and workers at the Denny's that brought this to a conclusion and brought Duncan to soon face justice.

[mysteriew]

IMO Shasta was left alive to tell the story. He had killed and gotten by with it before. That wasn't the purpose this time. The one thing that Duncan couldn't face was to die and no one know just what he was capable of. His blog told why. But somehow, something had to link him to these murders. I think he already knew that LE had no idea about him. How could he be a martyr for sex offenders everywhere, unless they could connect him to the kidnappings and murders. After all they were his "triumph" over society. His revenge. His lesson on what happens when sex offenders get "persecuted". Pretty hollow revenge, not much of a lesson if no one knew about it.
Think of the movie he made of Dylan's death. Think of how he attempted to kill Dylan several times and stopped. I think the whole purpose of the movie was to show how "reluctant" he was to kill him. The pervs whole argument is that with the increase in surveillence and restrictions- that more kids will be killed to prevent them from being witnesses against their attackers. The movie was to emphasize that. He showed his reluctance to kill Dylan (no one was supposed to know that he had done it before). Then he killed him.
I think that he was tired of the "game", tired of roughing it. I think he was disappointed when no one recognised Shasta in the gas station. I think he that is why there is a 6 hour gap in the gas station and the diner. I think he went back to camp and thought about it, and decided to move to CdA where she was sure to be recognised.
As far as why they stopped there- Shasta was under Duncan's control. If she said she was hungry, do you really think he would care? Do you really think he would stop to make her feel more comfortable? What could she do if he didn't stop. I think it was more likely that Duncan asked Shasta "are you hungry" and that of course she would want to stop there so she said yes.
As to the maps showing another camping area, there were probably several maps. This was planned, and well planned at that. Duncan probably picked up maps for several different places while he was picking where he was going to hide out. As far as them moving that night. When LE went to the last camp they were at, the tents were still up. If he were moving to a new camp- he would have needed to pack up the tents and take them with him. Even if he was planning to stay in a cabin- he wouldn't have left the tents at that site, as that would be evidence.
I think the struggle when they put the handcuffs on Duncan- I don't imagine the handcuffs were real comfortable. With so much media attention on the case, and not wanting to do anything to jepordize the legal case the officers really couldn't do too much to Duncan. But they could make sure the handcuffs were good and snug.
No, Duncan didn't talk to LE. He will never talk to LE. LE is the ones who put him in prison and guarded him there for years. He will follow orders to some extent. But he doesn't have to talk to them and he knows it. That is his revenge against LE.

[Openmind]

I guess we interpret actions differently ... and I respect the opinion of the posters who believe Duncan expected to be caught or was somehow surrendering.

IMO, however, the opposite has been proven. The convenience store and Dennys, Duncan was not ready or willing to surrender even if he was faced with LE and their guns drawn.

This weekend, I have re-played a video tape I made during the morning's coverage of LE's announcement that Joseph Duncan was in custody. (I have about five hours of video tapes from news reports that morning July 2nd beginning hours before the first news conference.) One question similar to this was posed to a reporter in CdA before the first news conference that morning. The reporter replied back that from LE sources who had some evidence already confiscated from the Jeep, a reported registered sex offender and Shasta Groene were passing through CdA along I-90 when Shasta said she was hungry and wanted to stop to eat. (The "registered sex offender" turned out to be Joseph Duncan.) (And it was reported that Shasta had ordered a "kids meal" and Duncan had ordered a lite snack - and both had eaten their food. IMO, perhaps Shasta recognized the Denny's and she thought someone there might recognize her - and that is why she was suddenly "hungry" and maybe even mentioned the "kids meal" there so Duncan felt he had limited options - stop there or drive-on, with Shasta possibly doing something that may bring attention to him.)

IMO, when facing LE officers with guns drawn, yes, Duncan knew his time was up. But he did not appear to give himself up peacefully - even struggling a bit with LE as LE placed restraints on his wrists (from one reporter's interview of patrons and workers).

A reporter said it appeared they were moving to another campsite. And that maps seen in the Jeep confirmed that suspicion - that they were moving to another camp site in Eastern Oregon. (The reporter showed a close-up zoom of the vehicle and a map on the dash board that showed areas off I-84 in Eastern Oregon as an apparent destination.) There were also maps of CdA seen in the Jeep.

Two reporters said LE found cash (reported by one reporter at about $3,000 in bills and by another reporter at about $2,000 in bills) in an envelope in the Jeep.

And once taken into custody, it was reported at the first news conference that Joseph Duncan refused to talk to LE and refused to cooperate with LE - that he had lawyered up. And one reporter asked about a report that the suspect had been roughed up by LE at the Denny's and the reply was "no comment." IMO, if he had been "roughed up by LE" it was likely he had tried escaping or resisting. Again, these are actions not of someone wanting to surrender or give themselves up.

If Duncan had really wanted to surrender, IMO, he could have driven into a police station and surrendered. Or he could have stopped an LE vehicle. And if Duncan was suicidal, he could have brought the shot gun with him and pointed it at approaching LE officers - an act that would have brought him face-to-face with his demons once and for all and spared us the cost of a trial. But Duncan did neither.

It remains my opinion that Joseph Duncan was far from giving himself up. That it was the heroic actions of the patrons and workers at the Denny's that brought this to a conclusion and brought Duncan to soon face justice.

I think you are giving Shasta way too much power over Duncan. Shasta is a remarkable little girl, but I can't imagine her knowing this Denny's was in CdA and, even so, would have been quick enough to device a plan for discovery. This is probably the only place open at that time of night to get a meal when she said she was hungry. LOL, I live in a huge metropolitan city and Denny's is the one of the only places to eat at two in the morning here as well, and it seems every restaurant in American has a kid's meal. Truthfully, most kids aren't that familiar with their home environments and wouldn't know one Denny's from the next. Compared to remembering the details of her captivity is a completely different situation. She would naturally remember those details because for 6 weeks she and Dylan were in survival mode and were dependent on Duncan for every minute of life he granted them. This is the kind of experience and memories we all carry with us. They are attached to our emotional being -- tragic and happy -- for the rest of our lives. Sadly, Shasta will carry these events with her in some form forever.

I'm impressed with your research but I'm not sure I would put a great deal of faith in these kinds of stories from the press especially in those early hours. They often prove to be erroneous or have such spin on them that what is factual has been lost in the fiction.

If he was changing campgrounds, why did he leave so much behind in the Lola campground? I can see him wanting out of that environment after what he did to Dylan.

I don't think he would have had to do much to "resist arrest" than being too slow coming out of the booth to get "roughed up" by the LE. I would imagine emotions were running pretty high, and they didn't know how violent he might become even if he was just sitting calmly waiting. He was in the company of a very frightened little girl whose family had been brutally murdered and when asked where her brother was pointed up and said in heaven. I can only imagine what was going through their minds at those critical moments

If he wanted to surrender, he would not simply go to a police station. That is too civilized and he is nowhere close to civilized. He would want to be discovered and if shot he would want to make it look like he was a victim. But I can't imagine him wanting to die in a gun battle. He is and will die a coward.

I may not agree with all you ideas, but I do agree it was the heroic actions of those at Denny's that took Duncan off the streets and rescued Shasta.

[Openmind]

No, Duncan didn't talk to LE. He will never talk to LE. LE is the ones who put him in prison and guarded him there for years. He will follow orders to some extent. But he doesn't have to talk to them and he knows it. That is his revenge against LE.
No, he'll be silent through the whole nasty affair.

[Wayne]

I think you are giving Shasta way too much power over Duncan. Shasta is a remarkable little girl, but I can't imagine her knowing this Denny's was in CdA and, even so, would have been quick enough to device a plan for discovery. This is probably the only place open at that time of night to get a meal when she said she was hungry. LOL, I live in a huge metropolitan city and Denny's is the one of the only places to eat at two in the morning here as well, and it seems every restaurant in American has a kid's meal. Truthfully, most kids aren't that familiar with their home environments and wouldn't know one Denny's from the next. Compared to remembering the details of her captivity is a completely different situation. She would naturally remember those details because for 6 weeks she and Dylan were in survival mode and were dependent on Duncan for every minute of life he granted them. This is the kind of experience and memories we all carry with us. They are attached to our emotional being -- tragic and happy -- for the rest of our lives. Sadly, Shasta will carry these events with her in some form forever.

I'm impressed with your research but I'm not sure I would put a great deal of faith in these kinds of stories from the press especially in those early hours. They often prove to be erroneous or have such spin on them that what is factual has been lost in the fiction.

If he was changing campgrounds, why did he leave so much behind in the Lola campground? I can see him wanting out of that environment after what he did to Dylan.

I don't think he would have had to do much to "resist arrest" than being too slow coming out of the booth to get "roughed up" by the LE. I would imagine emotions were running pretty high, and they didn't know how violent he might become even if he was just sitting calmly waiting. He was in the company of a very frightened little girl whose family had been brutally murdered and when asked where her brother was pointed up and said in heaven. I can only imagine what was going through their minds at those critical moments

If he wanted to surrender, he would not simply go to a police station. That is too civilized and he is nowhere close to civilized. He would want to be discovered and if shot he would want to make it look like he was a victim. But I can't imagine him wanting to die in a gun battle. He is and will die a coward.

I may not agree with all you ideas, but I do agree it was the heroic actions of those at Denny's that took Duncan off the streets and rescued Shasta.I have, for years, found the early reports very accurate. That as all of the facts are released by LE, the released information confirms the early reports were accurate. LE often denies "early reports" in the name of an investigation or safety. If the "early reports" fit the general scheme per reporters, I tend to grant them more weight as I did in this case. And in this case, the "early reports" do IMO fit the general scheme that reporters were keying on.

As for Shasta - IMO she is a brave and remarkable 8 year old child who had been through much more than a child or person should ever go through. Our children at age 5-6 knew their favorite restaurants and when we'd drive past, they'd act up begging us to stop for their kids meal (McDonalds, Carrows, and Shari's). Most Denny's signs are easily recognizable - especially along Interstate highways. IMO, it is possible Duncan was tired and Shasta pleaded with him and Duncan being the over confident perp he was, rationalized in his perp-mind it was somehow OK. I just do not consider that giving her way too much power over Duncan.

To answer your question - If he was changing campgrounds, why did he leave so much behind in the Lola campground? IMO, this was one of many remote camp sites Duncan had used before. With the camp sites being remote, Duncan in his perp-mind likely rationalized the chances of someone wandering onto the camp site were very-slim-and-none. Thus, he took chances and likely kept them stocked with some supplies. Thus, why he left camping supplies behind. (And IMO maybe Duncan liked one better than the others - and rationalized in his perp mind he'd likely abduct another child and eventually migrate back or return to the campsites.) A second possibility (another possibility) - maybe Duncan wanted to get away from the camp site to avoid questioning from possible smoke reports from him cremating Dylan's remains. IMO, Duncan was not departing the camp sites for good - he (in his perp mind) had plans on returning at some point in time in the future.

[Wayne]

No, he'll be silent through the whole nasty affair.
I agree with you - Duncan will likely remain quiet through the whole nasty affair.

[Openmind]

I have, for years, found the early reports very accurate. That as all of the facts are released by LE, the released information confirms the early reports were accurate. LE often denies "early reports" in the name of an investigation or safety. If the "early reports" fit the general scheme per reporters, I tend to grant them more weight as I did in this case. And in this case, the "early reports" do IMO fit the general scheme that reporters were keying on.

As for Shasta - IMO she is a brave and remarkable 8 year old child who had been through much more than a child or person should ever go through. Our children at age 5-6 knew their favorite restaurants and when we'd drive past, they'd act up begging us to stop for their kids meal (McDonalds, Carrows, and Shari's). Most Denny's signs are easily recognizable - especially along Interstate highways. IMO, it is possible Duncan was tired and Shasta pleaded with him and Duncan being the over confident perp he was, rationalized in his perp-mind it was somehow OK. I just do not consider that giving her way too much power over Duncan.

To answer your question - If he was changing campgrounds, why did he leave so much behind in the Lola campground? IMO, this was one of many remote camp sites Duncan had used before. With the camp sites being remote, Duncan in his perp-mind likely rationalized the chances of someone wandering onto the camp site were very-slim-and-none. Thus, he took chances and likely kept them stocked with some supplies. Thus, why he left camping supplies behind. (And IMO maybe Duncan liked one better than the others - and rationalized in his perp mind he'd likely abduct another child and eventually migrate back or return to the campsites.) A second possibility (another possibility) - maybe Duncan wanted to get away from the camp site to avoid questioning from possible smoke reports from him cremating Dylan's remains. IMO, Duncan was not departing the camp sites for good - he (in his perp mind) had plans on returning at some point in time in the future.
I hope you take my responses as discussion and not argument. I do have a different take on these events in some places but really do like hearing what other people are thinking. Truthfully, its all conjecture on our part.

I guess I don't see Shasta as having the kind of relationship with Duncan that so many others do. That she was a knowing companion and confidante. I can't see her willingly listening to his tales of horror or watching him torture Dylan like she was on Duncan's side. She listened because she had no other choice. She went along because she had no other choice. He had boasted to her and Dylan for weeks about his murders and sick crimes. She is a survivor like all children survive -- be silent and don't resist. Dylan did not, and he was murdered. But that does not mean she was plotting and planning on how to manage this man. She is an eight year old child that outlived his reign of terror. That does not in any way diminish her remarkable behavior.

I can't see her begging to stop at Denny's even if she knew it was the one in CdA. The begging would imply a kind of demeanor that this was a family rode trip. I could see him asking if she was hungry and when she said yes he stopped at the only place open which was Denny's. I agree Duncan was over confident and with good reason. He had done this before and hadn't been caught. This foolish stop at Denny's was his mistake -- thank goodness.

I'm glad you've had better results with early reports on the news. My experience has been more the opposite.

You're right, Shasta might have known the Denny's was in CdA, but that would depend on how often she went that way. We don't know those details.

[mysteriew]

If we all agreed in every aspect of our theories, we wouldn't have anything to discuss. I enjoy reading the other opinions. Doesn't happen often, but occasionally some posters have even been know to change my mind. :D

[Openmind]

If we all agreed in every aspect of our theories, we wouldn't have anything to discuss. I enjoy reading the other opinions. Doesn't happen often, but occasionally some posters have even been know to change my mind. :D
LOL, me too. But I'm not as vocal about admitting I have changed my mind as I am eager to voice my opposing view. I should work on that.

[Wayne]

I hope you take my responses as discussion and not argument. I do have a different take on these events in some places but really do like hearing what other people are thinking. Truthfully, its all conjecture on our part.

I guess I don't see Shasta as having the kind of relationship with Duncan that so many others do. That she was a knowing companion and confidante. I can't see her willingly listening to his tales of horror or watching him torture Dylan like she was on Duncan's side. She listened because she had no other choice. She went along because she had no other choice. He had boasted to her and Dylan for weeks about his murders and sick crimes. She is a survivor like all children survive -- be silent and don't resist. Dylan did not, and he was murdered. But that does not mean she was plotting and planning on how to manage this man. She is an eight year old child that outlived his reign of terror. That does not in any way diminish her remarkable behavior.

I can't see her begging to stop at Denny's even if she knew it was the one in CdA. The begging would imply a kind of demeanor that this was a family rode trip. I could see him asking if she was hungry and when she said yes he stopped at the only place open which was Denny's. I agree Duncan was over confident and with good reason. He had done this before and hadn't been caught. This foolish stop at Denny's was his mistake -- thank goodness.

I'm glad you've had better results with early reports on the news. My experience has been more the opposite.

You're right, Shasta might have known the Denny's was in CdA, but that would depend on how often she went that way. We don't know those details.
I have been trying to focus on the thread topic - Did Duncan want to get caught. I have said no; I still believe he stopped at Denny's to satisfy Shasta's request to stop for food - that Duncan had no intention of giving himself up or wanting to get caught.

And you are right - its all conjecture on our part.

[Openmind]

[QUOTE=Wayne]I have been trying to focus on the thread topic - Did Duncan want to get caught. I have said no; I still believe he stopped at Denny's to satisfy Shasta's request to stop for food - that Duncan had no intention of giving himself up or wanting to get caught.

You've done a better job of staying on topic than me. I have changed my mind on Duncan wanting to be caught. I do now think he was captured because of his arrogance and not by his design. Fate has not been kind to many in this terrible case but on that night in July it seems to have allowed Shasta some grace.

[gatetrekker44]

three years ago, around August 15, 2002? I am asking because when Duncan was caught and more info started coming out about how he "staked out" the Groene home before grabbing Shasta and Dylan, I started to wonder if there was a possibility that he was involved in the Short family murders? If you are not familiar with the case, I am posting a link below. The fact that Jennifer Short was removed from her home after her parents were murdered, and that the phone lines had been cut, made me think of Duncan-especially since LE in both VA and NC have no real leads 3 years after this horrible crime! Please check out the link-and let me know your opinions please!

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/local_state/local_article.aspx?storyid=46848


Bring Maura home!

[Wayne]

three years ago, around August 15, 2002? I am asking because when Duncan was caught and more info started coming out about how he "staked out" the Groene home before grabbing Shasta and Dylan, I started to wonder if there was a possibility that he was involved in the Short family murders? If you are not familiar with the case, I am posting a link below. The fact that Jennifer Short was removed from her home after her parents were murdered, and that the phone lines had been cut, made me think of Duncan-especially since LE in both VA and NC have no real leads 3 years after this horrible crime! Please check out the link-and let me know your opinions please!

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/local_state/local_article.aspx?storyid=46848


Bring Maura home!
I too have wondered about a connection to the Short family murders. Yet, I have not heard or seen any link. There are several cases with abducted / murdered children as victims that states want to question Duncan about - yet Duncan's lawyer has told LE - NO QUESTIONS FOR DUNCAN.

I did hear that there was a dive convention / show of sorts in Alexandria Virginia area in early-August 2002. (A close relative of mine said he attended it.) And I believe Alexandria is a few hours north of Henry County, Virginia. But the presence of such an event does not mean Duncan was there.

[kline]

Mystereiw,You have so hit on an element of this that has struck me since the begining....The show biz over his reluctance to kill Dylan on the videotape...his blog entries ect.
Alot of this was framed very much with a director's eye as to how it would be seen by the world after the fact.And you are absolutely correct about the " see what ive been driven to by a cruel and unfair society..." aspect of it.
Thats exactly the context we are supposed to veiw his attrocities in.
Indulge himself in his unnatural and sadistic impulses yet retain his victim status while accepting absolutely no responsibilty for the damage he has caused.
Textbook sociopath sexual predator.
I mean you want to talk about premeditation? Jesus wept.

[tired.old.hag]

A reporter said it appeared they were moving to another campsite. And that maps seen in the Jeep confirmed that suspicion - that they were moving to another camp site in Eastern Oregon. (The reporter showed a close-up zoom of the vehicle and a map on the dash board that showed areas off I-84 in Eastern Oregon as an apparent destination.)
Hi, Wayne. Was it the Wallowa or La Grande area by any chance? Wallowa-Whitman National Forest area?

If so, please take a peek at my first post in the "Word Play" thread. Makes sense he would head to an area he had been to before and maybe already knew there was a campground. And kids to abduct. :(

Please let me know what you think. I really appreciate your posts, Wayne. I can tell you do a lot of research, and put a lot of thought and analysis into this case. I appreciate it. This case has affected me like no other.

Take care all -
Tired

[Openmind]

Mystereiw,You have so hit on an element of this that has struck me since the begining....The show biz over his reluctance to kill Dylan on the videotape...his blog entries ect.
Alot of this was framed very much with a director's eye as to how it would be seen by the world after the fact.And you are absolutely correct about the " see what ive been driven to by a cruel and unfair society..." aspect of it.
Thats exactly the context we are supposed to veiw his attrocities in.
Indulge himself in his unnatural and sadistic impulses yet retain his victim status while accepting absolutely no responsibilty for the damage he has caused.
Textbook sociopath sexual predator.
I mean you want to talk about premeditation? Jesus wept.
I was curious about the video of Dylan's murder. Is it speculation or has there been somethng written about Duncan's reluctance to kill Dylan? This scenario would contradict the story that Dylan went into a rage and fought Duncan causing him to murder Dylan. A staged drama to show Duncan's distress over "having" to kill Dylan is a very different story. Either way, it breaks my heart that little Dylan suffered a terrible death at the hands of this monster.

[tired.old.hag]

When LE went to the last camp they were at, the tents were still up. If he were moving to a new camp- he would have needed to pack up the tents and take them with him. Even if he was planning to stay in a cabin- he wouldn't have left the tents at that site, as that would be evidence.
I just wanted to mention that I recently saw a news story saying that wasn't the last campsite they were at. It says after JED killed Dylan, he moved himself and Shasta to a different campsite for a week.

Snippet from news story below:

"Duncan allegedly killed Dylan and cremated his remains at the main campsite. Authorities believe Duncan then moved to a second campsite on another logging road off Forest Road 431 before returning to the Coeur d’Alene area, where he was arrested in a Denny’s restaurant July 2. "


http://www.clarkforkchronicle.com/20050825/duncan-20050825.htm


I haven't seen this in any other news story, so I don't know if it's accurate. It also says "authorities believe" - not that they know definitely.

Take care all -
Tired

[Openmind]

I just wanted to mention that I recently saw a news story saying that wasn't the last campsite they were at. It says after JED killed Dylan, he moved himself and Shasta to a different campsite for a week.

Snippet from news story below:

"Duncan allegedly killed Dylan and cremated his remains at the main campsite. Authorities believe Duncan then moved to a second campsite on another logging road off Forest Road 431 before returning to the Coeur d’Alene area, where he was arrested in a Denny’s restaurant July 2. "


http://www.clarkforkchronicle.com/20050825/duncan-20050825.htm


I haven't seen this in any other news story, so I don't know if it's accurate. It also says "authorities believe" - not that they know definitely.

Take care all -
Tired
I saw that but truthfully didn't notice the part about Duncan moving campgounds. The story about the cabin is simply grisly.

[mysteriew]

I still stand by my feeling that if Duncan was moving camps, he would have packed up the tents. Tents are something you take. They were his shelter. They compromised his camp. And even if he were moving to a cabin, he would have taken them with him, as insurance of shelter in case he had to leave the cabin. And he wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to the area he left by leaving a tent standing. And he wouldn't leave evidence.

[Wayne]

I just wanted to mention that I recently saw a news story saying that wasn't the last campsite they were at. It says after JED killed Dylan, he moved himself and Shasta to a different campsite for a week.

Snippet from news story below:

"Duncan allegedly killed Dylan and cremated his remains at the main campsite. Authorities believe Duncan then moved to a second campsite on another logging road off Forest Road 431 before returning to the Coeur d’Alene area, where he was arrested in a Denny’s restaurant July 2. "


http://www.clarkforkchronicle.com/20050825/duncan-20050825.htm


I haven't seen this in any other news story, so I don't know if it's accurate. It also says "authorities believe" - not that they know definitely.

Take care all -
Tired
It was reported at one point and included on a timeline (http://jetd63.blogspot.com/2005/07/joseph-duncan-timeline.html) on The Cellar (http://jetd63.blogspot.com/) that Duncan killed Dylan around June 25-26.

[Openmind]

I still stand by my feeling that if Duncan was moving camps, he would have packed up the tents. Tents are something you take. They were his shelter. They compromised his camp. And even if he were moving to a cabin, he would have taken them with him, as insurance of shelter in case he had to leave the cabin. And he wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to the area he left by leaving a tent standing. And he wouldn't leave evidence.
If you read the article, it doesn't say he was moving to a cabin, but he took Dylan alone to an old log cabin. For what purpose, it doesn't say, but it had be evil. Duncan left Shasta by herself at the campground while he was alone with Dylan at this uninhabitable cabin. They include a picture of the cabin. The reporter must have had a description of the local because they refer to details that match some other reference. The article doesn't say this is the cabin. I would guess Dylan or Duncan told Shasta where they had been, and, of course, there could be more infamous videos.

As kline said -- Jesus wept.

[tired.old.hag]

As far as why they stopped there- Shasta was under Duncan's control. If she said she was hungry, do you really think he would care? Do you really think he would stop to make her feel more comfortable? What could she do if he didn't stop. I think it was more likely that Duncan asked Shasta "are you hungry" and that of course she would want to stop there so she said yes.

Good points, mysterview. You've really got me thinking. I know there have been reports that JED ate at Denny's, but Amber Deahne has said repeatedly that he didn't -- that he only drank from a glass of water. So if that's the case, and as you point out, you have to look at how JED came to stop at the Denny's.

If Shasta said was hungry, JED didn't care, and wouldn't have stopped, unless he had some other motivation related to himself.

If Duncan stopped because he was hungry, then he would have eaten, but according to Amber Deahne, he didn't.

So what motivation did he have for stopping at Denny's? Let's say Shasta said she was hungry, and he had to pee anyway, so he stopped. Well, he wouldn't have waited until they were ready to leave to go to the bathroom.

If Shasta hadn't eaten in so long that JED was concerned he'd "lose her", I think it would have been mentioned in the press that she was starving. Or that Amber Deahne would have said Shasta scarfed up her food like she was starving.

JED didn't stop at Denny's because he needed and there was a gas station nearby -- he had just filled up completely at the convenience store. Or could he possibly have used up a full tank during the 5/6 hour gap?

I dunno. Very interesting.

One of the big FBI profilers always says only look at serial killers' behavior -- never try to look at their motivation because it will drive you crazy. LOL.

[tired.old.hag]

I have, for years, found the early reports very accurate. That as all of the facts are released by LE, the released information confirms the early reports were accurate. LE often denies "early reports" in the name of an investigation or safety. If the "early reports" fit the general scheme per reporters, I tend to grant them more weight as I did in this case. And in this case, the "early reports" do IMO fit the general scheme that reporters were keying on.

I like to back to early news reports too, especially if things get crazy and way too much info floods the media, e.g., the Natalee Holloway case. It's very helpful to me to go back and look at what people said in the early days.

[Wayne]

I like to back to early news reports too, especially if things get crazy and way too much info floods the media, e.g., the Natalee Holloway case. It's very helpful to me to go back and look at what people said in the early days.
I look at statements made by investigating LE officers prior to news conferences or press releases. It is before LE gets their slant on the case.

I found those "early" releases helpful in a variety of cases. That there always seems to be an LE officer willing to talk on camera about what they saw at the crime scene BEFORE the chief officer / sheriff gets a handle (control) on releasing information - and their information stays with me. And after a trial or prelim hearing, their information more often than not is truthful.

I also listen to the news conferences / press releases and to what was not said by LE within those statements.

[tired.old.hag]

The stuff in my post above #81 has been driving me crazy lol. So I decided to search and see what's near the Denny's that might have "inspired" JED to stop there. First, let me say that I'm not sure I had the right Denny's - I used the one at 2300 N. 4TH ST. COEUR D' ALENE, ID 83814.

Anyway, I saw there were several car sales lots nearby, and wondered if JED was planning on stealing another car. I was just about to exit and eat my dinner, when I hit the button for the 'Next Page' of results, when what to my wondering eyes should appear, but Jazzy Computers.

So now, of course, I've got the willies, and I just had to post lol.

Does anybody know if the address above is the Denny's where Shasta was rescued? I can't find the address in any news stories.

Now, somebody tell me to stop doing these searches so I stop getting the willies lol.

[kline]

Jazzy Computers? ( cue soundtrack music from 'The Twighlight Zone'....)

[Openmind]

The stuff in my post above #81 has been driving me crazy lol. So I decided to search and see what's near the Denny's that might have "inspired" JED to stop there. First, let me say that I'm not sure I had the right Denny's - I used the one at 2300 N. 4TH ST. COEUR D' ALENE, ID 83814.

Anyway, I saw there were several car sales lots nearby, and wondered if JED was planning on stealing another car. I was just about to exit and eat my dinner, when I hit the button for the 'Next Page' of results, when what to my wondering eyes should appear, but Jazzy Computers.

So now, of course, I've got the willies, and I just had to post lol.

Does anybody know if the address above is the Denny's where Shasta was rescued? I can't find the address in any news stories.

Now, somebody tell me to stop doing these searches so I stop getting the willies lol.
I thought the Denny's Duncan and Shasta went to was off 90 so I did a map via yellow pages search and the one you mentioned is right on 90 and would have been very visible from the highway going through CdA. I would guess at two in the morning, it is the ONLY place to eat.

LOL but if you are creeping yourself out - I'd stop looking for connections. It is very strange how many correlations there are to names and places, isn't it?

[Hammerized]

LOL but if you are creeping yourself out - I'd stop looking for connections. It is very strange how many correlations there are to names and places, isn't it? Heh, good thing there weren't any "Duncan" Donuts franchises in the area. ;)

[Idaho SoccerFreak]

Yes, the Denny's is on 4th street.

[dragonfly]

I have been reading all the post above about whether Duncan wanted to get caught and I really was intrigued with all the thought and research that went into each theory.
This has been a question that I have wondered about a lot too. It may never be answered and always be a mystery. It certainly was strange in many ways.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned that I believe played a key role in what happened on July 2nd is this record from the timeline.

July 1, 2005: Wacksman got a phone call from Duncan, Esposito said. Phone records show the call lasted four minutes.Wacksman, who reported the call the following week, told police he didn't have the impression Duncan was with anyone. Wacksman told police he was angry at Duncan for running from the law."He's upset with the guy, so he yells at him, and Duncan hangs up," Esposito said.

This is the last contact he made with the outside world, so to speak, before the incident at the Denny's with Shasta.

At first I didn't believe Wackman rendition of the phone call. I figured he was just trying to cover his .ss. I think IMO Duncan called Wackman because he was either running out of money, or what he preceived as opportunities to get away, or was at wits end. It is true that LE had no clue it was JED who did all the crimes at the Groene residence, but JED was a wanted fugitive and he had limited options. It was not going to be long before he was captured. The jeep was listed as stolen. He was taking a chance everytime he went into public. I think he enjoyed "testing the waters" by going out breifly with Shasta but ultimately he knew he and Shasta would be recognized. If his intentions were to get away with it...he and Shasta would not have been in the CdL area at all. They might have headed for Canada.

Duncan had spent the last 5 weeks living in tents with two kids he had kidnapped, sexually abused, horrifically killed one and disposed the body (this body disposal was an attempt to never be caught IMO) Wackman was probably the only living person he could call at this point, he is totally isolated in this world now...and this guy is screaming "Turn yourself into LE!" I think there is the possiblity that Wackman changed his mind and had enough influence on Duncan at this weak point, than he finally decided to do the right thing.

In his May blog entry he mentions that "maybe I will do the right thing.." but of course we know he didn't...but maybe he was capable of doing the right thing.

Lets remember he could have killed Shasta just like Dylan and her body would never have been found either, he could have left the area and never even been a suspect at all. I certainly think he was capable of that as well.

Just some thoughts, hoping to generate more discussion...

[Hammerized]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned that I believe played a key role in what happened on July 2nd is this record from the timeline.
[...]

Wackman was probably the only living person he could call at this point, he is totally isolated in this world now...and this guy is screaming "Turn yourself into LE!" I think there is the possiblity that Wackman changed his mind and had enough influence on Duncan at this weak point, than he finally decided to do the right thing.
I think the same thing happened. I posted it here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=770637&postcount=22

So, did Wacksman's anger cause Duncan to stop "running" from the law and bring Shasta into the Denny's in her hometown? The murders were done. It was just him and Shasta. Anyhow, what I think... Duncan got a reality check from Wacksman and brought Shasta to a restaurant in her hometown for his own personal Waterloo.

[mysteriew]

I have been reading all the post above about whether Duncan wanted to get caught and I really was intrigued with all the thought and research that went into each theory.
This has been a question that I have wondered about a lot too. It may never be answered and always be a mystery. It certainly was strange in many ways.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned that I believe played a key role in what happened on July 2nd is this record from the timeline.

July 1, 2005: Wacksman got a phone call from Duncan, Esposito said. Phone records show the call lasted four minutes.Wacksman, who reported the call the following week, told police he didn't have the impression Duncan was with anyone. Wacksman told police he was angry at Duncan for running from the law."He's upset with the guy, so he yells at him, and Duncan hangs up," Esposito said.

This is the last contact he made with the outside world, so to speak, before the incident at the Denny's with Shasta.

At first I didn't believe Wackman rendition of the phone call. I figured he was just trying to cover his .ss. I think IMO Duncan called Wackman because he was either running out of money, or what he preceived as opportunities to get away, or was at wits end. It is true that LE had no clue it was JED who did all the crimes at the Groene residence, but JED was a wanted fugitive and he had limited options. It was not going to be long before he was captured. The jeep was listed as stolen. He was taking a chance everytime he went into public. I think he enjoyed "testing the waters" by going out breifly with Shasta but ultimately he knew he and Shasta would be recognized. If his intentions were to get away with it...he and Shasta would not have been in the CdL area at all. They might have headed for Canada.

Duncan had spent the last 5 weeks living in tents with two kids he had kidnapped, sexually abused, horrifically killed one and disposed the body (this body disposal was an attempt to never be caught IMO) Wackman was probably the only living person he could call at this point, he is totally isolated in this world now...and this guy is screaming "Turn yourself into LE!" I think there is the possiblity that Wackman changed his mind and had enough influence on Duncan at this weak point, than he finally decided to do the right thing.

In his May blog entry he mentions that "maybe I will do the right thing.." but of course we know he didn't...but maybe he was capable of doing the right thing.

Lets remember he could have killed Shasta just like Dylan and her body would never have been found either, he could have left the area and never even been a suspect at all. I certainly think he was capable of that as well.

Just some thoughts, hoping to generate more discussion...

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have felt all along that Duncan was giving up, but I couldn't put my finger on the why.
According to the way he wrote in his blog, Duncan seemed to look up to Cary and Whacksman. He seemed amazed that they would take time with him, help him, and accept him so completely (Just like we have all been amazed, LOL). I mean these guys continued to help him even after he had screwed up again. So when someone he really admired, who he knew he had disappointed by absconding- tells him turn himself in- the only way he can ever hope to earn forgiveness from him or to repay him- is to turn himself in. He just might listen. Even if his head is telling him that he will never be forgiven for the murders his heart may have been telling him something different, or he may have felt he owed it to the Dr.

[Openmind]

Duncan had spent the last 5 weeks living in tents with two kids he had kidnapped, sexually abused, horrifically killed one and disposed the body (this body disposal was an attempt to never be caught IMO) Wackman was probably the only living person he could call at this point, he is totally isolated in this world now...and this guy is screaming "Turn yourself into LE!" I think there is the possiblity that Wackman changed his mind and had enough influence on Duncan at this weak point, than he finally decided to do the right thing.

In his May blog entry he mentions that "maybe I will do the right thing.." but of course we know he didn't...but maybe he was capable of doing the right thing.

Lets remember he could have killed Shasta just like Dylan and her body would never have been found either, he could have left the area and never even been a suspect at all. I certainly think he was capable of that as well.

Just some thoughts, hoping to generate more discussion...
I have wondered what was Duncan's provocation for killing Dylan. It seems a critical element that might indicate his motivation for arriving back in CdA on July 2. Was Dylan's murder planned or was it the result of a conflict between those two that ended in Dylan's death.

If Dylan's murder was planned, I think Duncan got rid of all evidence to escape discovery. He was in CdA arrogantly showing off to Shasta and for himself, but he would not have allowed her to survive either. He would have eventually murdered her as well.

But if Dylan provoked Duncan and Duncan in a rage murdered Dylan that would seem to be a very different set of circumstances. The perverse disposal of little Dylan's body would have been his continued rage or distress to what he had done. (Naturally, either way he wanted all evidence of Dylan gone.) But if Dylan's death was the result of his going out of control, he might have actually had some guilt or panic lost self control, called Wackman, and went back to CdA to be discovered.

Even if Dylan's murder was premeditated or a violent reaction to Dylan's defiance that resulted in his death, the murder in late June is the catalyst that set the other events in motion.

[kline]

It is one of the more intriguiging aspects of this case and I think the well thought out responses ive read present some real possibilties as far as answers.
Hopefully the trial will answer some of these questions.
I wont hold my breath though because frankly I dont think the truth is in most sociopathic sexual predators.
I found the sturm and drang of his blog entry where we find poor Jazzi Jett striving with his 'demons' struggling 'to do the right thing' on behalf of a society that has forsaken him and misused him risable melodrama of the most transparent sort.
Straight from the same orifice that produced his videotaped(!) 'failures' to gather enough resolve to kill Dylan.
These are the products of the pathological Narciscist.He wants to not only indulge himself in his desires and fetid appetites regardless of the cost to anyone else,but he also wants to control the context by which we view him and his crimes.
Its difficult for normal pro-social people like us to comprehend the fact that sociopaths exist...people who can pass themselves off as normal
but who possess absolutely no concscience or desire or intinct to 'do the right thing'.but unfortunately they do.
And I dont think we have much fear of being gainsaid by assigning a man who derives sexual pleasure and enjoyment from torturing and terrorizing and murdering nine year old children to their ranks.
Im sure he did have strong feelings for the Dr. and the other Idiot who underwrote his madcap little adventures but even then its not friendship or affection as you and I know it.
People may be valued by the sociopath but only in as much as that person reflects back a light that flatters or legitimizes his view of himself.
And I think there is a possibility that therein might lie the answer as to why Shasta Groene is still alive.

[mysteriew]

I have wondered what was Duncan's provocation for killing Dylan. It seems a critical element that might indicate his motivation for arriving back in CdA on July 2. Was Dylan's murder planned or was it the result of a conflict between those two that ended in Dylan's death.

If Dylan's murder was planned, I think Duncan got rid of all evidence to escape discovery. He was in CdA arrogantly showing off to Shasta and for himself, but he would not have allowed her to survive either. He would have eventually murdered her as well.

But if Dylan provoked Duncan and Duncan in a rage murdered Dylan that would seem to be a very different set of circumstances. The perverse disposal of little Dylan's body would have been his continued rage or distress to what he had done. (Naturally, either way he wanted all evidence of Dylan gone.) But if Dylan's death was the result of his going out of control, he might have actually had some guilt or panic lost self control, called Wackman, and went back to CdA to be discovered.

Even if Dylan's murder was premeditated or a violent reaction to Dylan's defiance that resulted in his death, the murder in late June is the catalyst that set the other events in motion.

I think that Duncan's videotaping of several attempts to kill Dylan, before he actually did so shows it wasn't a result of provocation, but was instead premeditated. I mean even if only premeditated for the length of time it took to set up the video camera.

My opinion- the aborted attempts were to show his "reluctance" to kill Dylan and the whole videotape was to show that society was forcing the child rapists to kill, so as to make sure there was no evidence of the rape.
I could be wrong. But the multiple previous tries does show that it was no due to some action of Dylan's that provoked him into a killing rage. IMO

[mysteriew]

It is one of the more intriguiging aspects of this case and I think the well thought out responses ive read present some real possibilties as far as answers.
Hopefully the trial will answer some of these questions.
I wont hold my breath though because frankly I dont think the truth is in most sociopathic sexual predators.
I found the sturm and drang of his blog entry where we find poor Jazzi Jett striving with his 'demons' struggling 'to do the right thing' on behalf of a society that has forsaken him and misused him risable melodrama of the most transparent sort.
Straight from the same orifice that produced his videotaped(!) 'failures' to gather enough resolve to kill Dylan.
These are the products of the pathological Narciscist.He wants to not only indulge himself in his desires and fetid appetites regardless of the cost to anyone else,but he also wants to control the context by which we view him and his crimes.
Its difficult for normal pro-social people like us to comprehend the fact that sociopaths exist...people who can pass themselves off as normal
but who possess absolutely no concscience or desire or intinct to 'do the right thing'.but unfortunately they do.
And I dont think we have much fear of being gainsaid by assigning a man who derives sexual pleasure and enjoyment from torturing and terrorizing and murdering nine year old children to their ranks.
Im sure he did have strong feelings for the Dr. and the other Idiot who underwrote his madcap little adventures but even then its not friendship or affection as you and I know it.
People may be valued by the sociopath but only in as much as that person reflects back a light that flatters or legitimizes his view of himself.
And I think there is a possibility that therein might lie the answer as to why Shasta Groene is still alive.

What do you think the response of a sociopath would be if a person he previously admired, and on whose support he always counted- makes him angry. Maybe by urging him to turn in, or by chastising him for running from the court case? The phone call was only about 4 min. long wasn't it? Not a long call, maybe there were indications that the support that had always been given had been withdrawn (don't call me again, I never want to hear from you), or maybe in the midst of Whacksman pleading for Duncan to turn himself in, Duncan got angry and hung up (you don't understand, I can't turn myself in, type of thing).
Either way the short call between two previous friends, now that one friend was in trouble for running from a court case (I am presuming that that is all Whacksman knew)- that short of a call means something. And IMO that is what led to Duncan going to CDA

[tired.old.hag]

This is a bit off topic, so please forgive me, but that phone call with Dr. Wacky really bothers me. Dr. Wacky told LE that he yelled at JED for running from the law, and that JED hung up on him. What bothers me is that LE had been in contact with Dr. Wacky, and told him to immediately report any contact from JED. But Dr. Wacky waited a full week to tell LE about the phone call. Even after Shasta was rescued, all the media reports, etc., etc., he still didn't tell LE for a week. This is the kind of stuff I'd do anything to know the true "why" about.

================

Okay, back to topic :)

I've spent many years studying serial killers, sexual psychopaths/sadists, and sociopaths. (Not all sociopaths are serial killers or sexual sadists, but all serial killers and sexual sadists are sociopaths.) There's a reason why I've been compelled to do this research -- maybe some day I'll be able to write a book about it.

Anyway, many years ago I came to the conclusion that it just doesn't matter what did or didn't happen to these monsters during their childhood. What we have to deal with is how they are when their psychopathy manifests itself in abuse of others. It is what it is. When what they are becomes apparent, they need to be contained. Permanently.

Then they can be studied to try to identify them before they abuse, so they can be contained before they inflict their horror, sparing the rest of us, who are nothing to them but potential victims.

Once this containment has been successfully implemented, then they can be studied to determine cause, and if they can be treated.

We don't let lions and tigers and gorillas roam the streets until we see if they maul and kill, and then cage them. We're smart enough to know the nature of these animals is to maul and kill. So we contain them. I've never understood why we don't do the same with people who we're smart enough to know their nature is to abuse horribly and to kill.

Yes, I know about their rights. But these monsters are different enough, and harmful enough, to warrant different rights, so that we can preserve the rights of everyone else.

================

Anyway, the article posted above by dragonfly is an excellent one (thank you for posting it, dragonfly).

Here's another article I find interesting. It's about what these monsters feel:

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p020128.html

[kline]

Oh yeah,I agree that phone call could be very significant.

Especially when you consider the fragile emotional state of someone like duncan.
Where the sociopath's mask or face he presents to the world is mostly artifice,
a very superficial veneer,likewise their sense of self,their center,and sense of personal well being is on a very shaky foundation.
How many times have we seen a serial rapist or killer who acts out after some personal upset in their lives? Getting chewed out by a boss or a fight with a wife or girlfriend,or a death in their family?
Their prone to very emotional out of proportion outbursts.
Add that to an inherant bent towards risktaking and a need to continuously raise the stakes that most of these guys have( that often leads to their downfall) and ,yeah it could play into it very easily.
He could easily define himself as a worthwhile human being by the very fact that these 'normal' successful men who he admires treat him that way.
"Yeah sure,I like to sodomize and murder young boys but if they like me I aint all bad."
And if one of those emotional anchors rejects him....or recoils in horror and disgust..look out below.
For what its worth I think he told the Whacksman everything during that call or enough to illicit a very strong negative response.
(" But Whacky!...when I used to talk about this kind of stuff during sex it used to turn you on so!!! How can you yell at me like this???) We may never know.
I want to say though that keep in mind all of these theories and possible motivations weve come up with are not mutually exclusive.
It could well have been a wide combination of things that were motivating Duncan at this point being the creature of impulse that he probably is.
I sure enjoy the insight all of your guy's posts provide,its a constant challenge to look at new angles of this very facinating case.

[Cowgirl]

Nothing Dr Wacky said or did caused Duncan to murder the children's family in order to take the kids. We know that because he bought the night vision goggles back in Fargo weeks before, so he was planning his horror. I guess something Dr Wacky said could have brought on Dylan's murder, but then, the sun coming up might have been the trigger...

Personally, I think Dr Wacky, Woelfert, and Joe Crary were all just tricks for Duncan and I don't think he saw them as any more than pleasant benefactors. He lied to all of them about one thing or another, so I just don't think he gave a damn about anyone but himself. And if you don't care about someone, they really cannot hurt you emotionally.

[Openmind]

Nothing Dr Wacky said or did caused Duncan to murder the children's family in order to take the kids. We know that because he bought the night vision goggles back in Fargo weeks before, so he was planning his horror. I guess something Dr Wacky said could have brought on Dylan's murder, but then, the sun coming up might have been the trigger...

Personally, I think Dr Wacky, Woelfert, and Joe Crary were all just tricks for Duncan and I don't think he saw them as any more than pleasant benefactors. He lied to all of them about one thing or another, so I just don't think he gave a damn about anyone but himself. And if you don't care about someone, they really cannot hurt you emotionally.
I thought the phone call to Wackman was after Duncan had already murdered Dylan.

[Cowgirl]

I thought the phone call to Wackman was after Duncan had already murdered Dylan.I think it was, but since there seems to be some discrepancy as to when he (Wacky) reported the call or calls, I am covering all bases. My point is, the murders and kidnappings had nothing to do with any lovers or anything/anyone outside of the sick mind of Joseph Duncan.

Some believe Wacky was involved in child molestations and that it was a shared interest with Duncan as well. I do not because there has been no evidence of that, just talk. Duncan is/was not just a pedophile--he was/is a paraphile, having sex with anyone just so long as he can hurt and humiliate his victim. Children are just the most vulnerable. And when one is trying to "pay society back" what better way to outrage people than to do this to kids?

[Openmind]

I think it was, but since there seems to be some discrepancy as to when he (Wacky) reported the call or calls, I am covering all bases. My point is, the murders and kidnappings had nothing to do with any lovers or anything/anyone outside of the sick mind of Joseph Duncan.

Some believe Wacky was involved in child molestations and that it was a shared interest with Duncan as well. I do not because there has been no evidence of that, just talk. Duncan is/was not just a pedophile--he was/is a paraphile, having sex with anyone just so long as he can hurt and humiliate his victim. Children are just the most vulnerable. And when one is trying to "pay society back" what better way to outrage people than to do this to kids?
I'm not familiar with the term paraphile but Duncan perfectly fits that profile. I have never thought Wackman was any more that a hapless and stupid benefactor to Duncan's sickness. Duncan is totally responsible for his actions. I agree his crimes are not just about having sex with children. He had to torture and prolong his heinous crimes. Truthfully, Shasta and Dylan were both quite remarkable to have survived as long as they did.

[BillyGoatGruff]

I think it was, but since there seems to be some discrepancy as to when he (Wacky) reported the call or calls, I am covering all bases. My point is, the murders and kidnappings had nothing to do with any lovers or anything/anyone outside of the sick mind of Joseph Duncan.

Some believe Wacky was involved in child molestations and that it was a shared interest with Duncan as well. I do not because there has been no evidence of that, just talk. Duncan is/was not just a pedophile--he was/is a paraphile, having sex with anyone just so long as he can hurt and humiliate his victim. Children are just the most vulnerable. And when one is trying to "pay society back" what better way to outrage people than to do this to kids?

Actually he's what doctors refer to as polymorphous perverse, or omnisexual/ambisexual. He goes whichever way the wind blows.
Paraphilia refers to multiple perversions such as (in his case): sexual sadism, cross dressing, pedophilia, bisexuality, exhibitionism, and god knows what else. BTK also was diagnosed as having paraphilia.

[Wayne]

Truthfully, Shasta and Dylan were both quite remarkable to have survived as long as they did.
IMO, Duncan abducted Shasta and Dylan not for the short-term trek that it seems he had done previously. He wanted to strike back at society. And to strike back required a long-term abduction with repeated assaults - almost toying with Shasta and Dylan while under his control. I sense he knew he'd have the two for a while - and although his assaults were brutal, he kept each assault within certain limits he controlled. And each assault may even have been designed in a way the perp could respond / adjust to a child's responses without appearing to have feelings for the victim or yielding to the victim's pleas for help.

I agree - it is quite remarkable Shasta and D