The Short Family & the Groene Family? A connection perhaps?

[Snikx]

Murdering a family in order to abduct and molest children is rare. If someone turns up who is known to have done such a crime and who has claimed in his blog to have committed other crimes for which he has NOT been caught, isn't it possible that where we know of other family murders such as the Short family murders that the perpetrator might be the same? As in Joseph E. Duncan III?

On August 15, 2002 at the time of the annual antique boat show at Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia which is north of Bassett, VA and which is a place that is popular with scuba divers, the parents of Jennifer Short were murdered and Jennifer was abducted. The man suspected in the case was a 68 year old man who may have had nothing to do with the crime as it turned out that others lied about what they saw in order to get reward money.

http://www.nbc12.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WWBT/MGArticle/WBT_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781384014

Duncan traveled considerably in order to scuba dive, to geocache, and to visit others in Kansas City and in Florida. Taking a somewhat easternly diversion during a drive to Florida from the Northwest wouldn't be that much out of the way for someone used to traveling. And for someone who might have wanted to visit a different scuba diving location as well as to continue his "revenge against society" by committing a molestation well out of his usual haunts where he was under more scrutiny, it might have seemed like a perfect place to do whatever he wanted without anyone even noticing that he was there.

http://www.virginiasbestkeptsecret.com/scubadiving.html

I did call the investigators to let them know of my speculations and also to tell them where to find the links to Duncan's fifth nail blog on Steve Huff's Darkside.

[mysteriew]

I never thought of them. But this guy did like to go out of state to do his dirty deeds.

[mic730]

I live in SW VA about an hour from the Short home and this crossed my mind as well. This is a great mystery in our area and one we would like to have solved. I don't think Gary Bowman is no longer a person of interest. There are several things about him that can go both ways in this case. The people who lied about seeing him are not the only link being Bowman and the Short family.
Also I don't spend a lot of time at the Lake and I am not aware of it being a big draw for scuba divers. I could have that wrong just never heard that before. However, I agree with you that they should check Duncans whereabouts at the time of the Short murders.
Michelle


Murdering a family in order to abduct and molest children is rare. If someone turns up who is known to have done such a crime and who has claimed in his blog to have committed other crimes for which he has NOT been caught, isn't it possible that where we know of other family murders such as the Short family murders that the perpetrator might be the same? As in Joseph E. Duncan III?

On August 15, 2002 at the time of the annual antique boat show at Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia which is north of Bassett, VA and which is a place that is popular with scuba divers, the parents of Jennifer Short were murdered and Jennifer was abducted. The man suspected in the case was a 68 year old man who may have had nothing to do with the crime as it turned out that others lied about what they saw in order to get reward money.

http://www.nbc12.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WWBT/MGArticle/WBT_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781384014

Duncan traveled considerably in order to scuba dive, to geocache, and to visit others in Kansas City and in Florida. Taking a somewhat easternly diversion during a drive to Florida from the Northwest wouldn't be that much out of the way for someone used to traveling. And for someone who might have wanted to visit a different scuba diving location as well as to continue his "revenge against society" by committing a molestation well out of his usual haunts where he was under more scrutiny, it might have seemed like a perfect place to do whatever he wanted without anyone even noticing that he was there.

http://www.virginiasbestkeptsecret.com/scubadiving.html

I did call the investigators to let them know of my speculations and also to tell them where to find the links to Duncan's fifth nail blog on Steve Huff's Darkside.

[mysteriew]

I live in SW VA about an hour from the Short home and this crossed my mind as well. This is a great mystery in our area and one we would like to have solved. I don't think Gary Bowman is no longer a person of interest. There are several things about him that can go both ways in this case. The people who lied about seeing him are not the only link being Bowman and the Short family.
Also I don't spend a lot of time at the Lake and I am not aware of it being a big draw for scuba divers. I could have that wrong just never heard that before. However, I agree with you that they should check Duncans whereabouts at the time of the Short murders.
Michelle

Have you considered making a call to LE? Just kind of a heads up that the pattern seems similiar? Family murdered, child missing, no clues left at the crime scene?

[Snikx]

Have you considered making a call to LE? Just kind of a heads up that the pattern seems similiar? Family murdered, child missing, no clues left at the crime scene?

I've seen "LE" in posts before but don't know what "LE" refers to. So my stupid question of the day (SQOD) is: What does LE stand for?

[mysteriew]

I've seen "LE" in posts before but don't know what "LE" refers to. So my stupid question of the day (SQOD) is: What does LE stand for?

LOL, sorry it is not a stupid question. The only stupid question is a question that isn't asked. Its kind of a shorthand for Law Enforcement.

[Cristal]

law enforcement

[dannyodie]

I live in SW VA about an hour from the Short home and this crossed my mind as well. This is a great mystery in our area and one we would like to have solved. I don't think Gary Bowman is no longer a person of interest. There are several things about him that can go both ways in this case. The people who lied about seeing him are not the only link being Bowman and the Short family.
Also I don't spend a lot of time at the Lake and I am not aware of it being a big draw for scuba divers. I could have that wrong just never heard that before. However, I agree with you that they should check Duncans whereabouts at the time of the Short murders.
Michelle
all of what you are saying is a very good possibility, however, I wouldn't suspect that duncan would be a suspect in the short case. he actually liked boys the fact that he was still with shasta is really only known to him. he most likely was an outcast in his teen years and didn't ever have a normal relationship with a female, I would only guess at this time that he may have thought of her as just that. or it may be that he likes small children in general and the fact that she was a female may not be important to him, only the fact that she was " small " sexual preditors want to have complete control over there victims, the smaller they are the more control they are able to have without a fight. but I don't dis- regard the possibility that he could have been the one involved in the short case, a person such as duncan would most certainly continue to use the same m.o. and would most likely use the same method of killing, he is one that likes the rage of killing someone by hand and not a gun. I do believe however that the person that is involved with the short case is a sexual preditor since he removed the child from the home.

[mic730]

I suspect the Henry County Sheriffs office will make the connection.
Although the case has not been solved I have never had any doubts in the abilties of the investigators. (I know you were not suggesting they we have bad investigators) But I may email our local news - it might be a good way to get some more attention on this case locally. I personally doubt Duncan has a connection to this BUT it never hurts to check it out.
Michelle

Have you considered making a call to LE? Just kind of a heads up that the pattern seems similiar? Family murdered, child missing, no clues left at the crime scene?

[Snikx]

I suspect the Henry County Sheriffs office will make the connection.
Although the case has not been solved I have never had any doubts in the abilties of the investigators. (I know you were not suggesting they we have bad investigators) But I may email our local news - it might be a good way to get some more attention on this case locally. I personally doubt Duncan has a connection to this BUT it never hurts to check it out.
Michelle

I did email a reporter in that area a few days ago. So far all I got back was an out-of-office automatic reply email.

Earlier today I spoke with an investigator from the Henry County Sheriff's office after playing phone tag for several days. I don't think they'd thought of the possibility of a connection. He didn't know about Duncan's blog. I gave him an url so that he could find the links to online information. He didn't know about Duncan's interest in scuba diving. He wanted to know how I knew these things. I told him about the information in the blog and that Duncan mentioned having done things for which he had not been caught. I told him why I thought there could be a connection and that I had noticed the lake on the map north of Bassett and that people went there to scuba dive.

The investigator wanted my name and physical address so that they could send an FBI person here! If they wanted to ....! He said, "You never know. Just in case." Yikes! Is that standard procedure when you call LE?

[mysteriew]

LE is always suspicious by nature and by profession. Yes, if you make a report you may get a followup by some LE officer. They want to know- what you know, is there anything else you know that you didn't tell them about, should they be considering you to appear in court as a witness, and are you telling them the truth.
It is really nothing to worry about, if you weren't involved in the crime. They are just being careful. And trying to do their investigation and eventually make their court case. Once they realize that the only way you have info is through observation and suspicion they usually lose interest in you personally.
I once heard of a guy who called in a report to LE on a case he was interested in. Later, it was determined that his theory was correct. The FBI came to see him, to make sure he didn't have personal knowlege of the crime. The crime had happened in a different state and he hadn't left his own state and didn't know any of the suspects involved. So that was the end of it, as far as he was concerned.
It is not a biggie, just LE being cautious and suspicious- that is their job.

[Floh]

The investigator wanted my name and physical address so that they could send an FBI person here! If they wanted to ....! He said, "You never know. Just in case." Yikes! Is that standard procedure when you call LE?

It doesn't surprise me. let any FBI person know about amatuer sleuthing being of interest toi members of the public and point them in the direction of websites like this one to show you are not alone in your interest, is what i'd suggest.

[mic730]

Lgad you gave them a call. It can't hurt to check it out.
Michelle

I did email a reporter in that area a few days ago. So far all I got back was an out-of-office automatic reply email.

Earlier today I spoke with an investigator from the Henry County Sheriff's office after playing phone tag for several days. I don't think they'd thought of the possibility of a connection. He didn't know about Duncan's blog. I gave him an url so that he could find the links to online information. He didn't know about Duncan's interest in scuba diving. He wanted to know how I knew these things. I told him about the information in the blog and that Duncan mentioned having done things for which he had not been caught. I told him why I thought there could be a connection and that I had noticed the lake on the map north of Bassett and that people went there to scuba dive.

The investigator wanted my name and physical address so that they could send an FBI person here! If they wanted to ....! He said, "You never know. Just in case." Yikes! Is that standard procedure when you call LE?

[TexMex]

I think he knew he was about to go to prison for what he was out on bail for.
So he decides to go out with a bang, like he wrote on his blog. He skips bail, winds up in Idaho sees the little boy and becomes infatuated with him. Plans to grab him, uses his gun to subdue whoever he finds in the home and takes the kids. I wonder why he took the little girl and spared her from death seeing how he seemed to molest boys in the past.

[concernedperson]

Murdering a family in order to abduct and molest children is rare. If someone turns up who is known to have done such a crime and who has claimed in his blog to have committed other crimes for which he has NOT been caught, isn't it possible that where we know of other family murders such as the Short family murders that the perpetrator might be the same? As in Joseph E. Duncan III?

On August 15, 2002 at the time of the annual antique boat show at Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia which is north of Bassett, VA and which is a place that is popular with scuba divers, the parents of Jennifer Short were murdered and Jennifer was abducted. The man suspected in the case was a 68 year old man who may have had nothing to do with the crime as it turned out that others lied about what they saw in order to get reward money.

http://www.nbc12.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WWBT/MGArticle/WBT_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031781384014

Duncan traveled considerably in order to scuba dive, to geocache, and to visit others in Kansas City and in Florida. Taking a somewhat easternly diversion during a drive to Florida from the Northwest wouldn't be that much out of the way for someone used to traveling. And for someone who might have wanted to visit a different scuba diving location as well as to continue his "revenge against society" by committing a molestation well out of his usual haunts where he was under more scrutiny, it might have seemed like a perfect place to do whatever he wanted without anyone even noticing that he was there.

http://www.virginiasbestkeptsecret.com/scubadiving.html

I did call the investigators to let them know of my speculations and also to tell them where to find the links to Duncan's fifth nail blog on Steve Huff's Darkside.

You, my friend have a very good mind. I applaud you and your effort to explore this further.

[dannyodie]

I did email a reporter in that area a few days ago. So far all I got back was an out-of-office automatic reply email.

Earlier today I spoke with an investigator from the Henry County Sheriff's office after playing phone tag for several days. I don't think they'd thought of the possibility of a connection. He didn't know about Duncan's blog. I gave him an url so that he could find the links to online information. He didn't know about Duncan's interest in scuba diving. He wanted to know how I knew these things. I told him about the information in the blog and that Duncan mentioned having done things for which he had not been caught. I told him why I thought there could be a connection and that I had noticed the lake on the map north of Bassett and that people went there to scuba dive.

The investigator wanted my name and physical address so that they could send an FBI person here! If they wanted to ....! He said, "You never know. Just in case." Yikes! Is that standard procedure when you call LE?
if the fbi does happen to show up on your door step, heads up, they will ask you all sorts of questions. be calm , cool, and collected.

[Snikx]

Lgad you gave them a call. It can't hurt to check it out.
Michelle

A weird thing happened right before the investigator called. I was in the middle of writing a post on here about this case and my computer's display went black on me. I couldn't get it to do a thing. So when the investigator was asking me questions about the sites on the internet where the fifthnail blog was, I couldn't give him the exact url because I couldn't remember it and couldn't look it up on my computer. I could only remember the planethuff/darkside url.

My computer has been very reliable and that was the first time in a year it had ever quit on me like that.

[dannyodie]

You, my friend have a very good mind. I applaud you and your effort to explore this further.
we all have to remember that a sexual preditor and a sexual sadest are two different types of people. even though both are likely to kill there victims, a sexual sadest will go completly out of the norm to get there next victim, like duncan, travels all over regardless how far to seek out a victim to victimize then kill for the sheer enjoyment of it, kinda like a extra thrill in the whole process. a ordinary sexual preditor is one that picks out and targets a certain victim, most pick someone that they have had contact with in the past, or even one that has been friends of a family for years. the percentage is much greater for you to be harmed by someone close to you than to be harmed by a complete stranger. the type of pervert that duncan is, is a very violant offender that should have never been allowed out of jail. shame on the ones that overlooked the fact that whatever treatment was being givin him was not making any progress at all. gods final act on those types of individuals will make up for what we can not provide them.

[mic730]

I learned something new from you today - scuba diving at Smith Mountain Lake! It sounds really cool and not far from my home.
Thanks!
Michelle

A weird thing happened right before the investigator called. I was in the middle of writing a post on here about this case and my computer's display went black on me. I couldn't get it to do a thing. So when the investigator was asking me questions about the sites on the internet where the fifthnail blog was, I couldn't give him the exact url because I couldn't remember it and couldn't look it up on my computer. I could only remember the planethuff/darkside url.

My computer has been very reliable and that was the first time in a year it had ever quit on me like that.

[dannyodie]

A weird thing happened right before the investigator called. I was in the middle of writing a post on here about this case and my computer's display went black on me. I couldn't get it to do a thing. So when the investigator was asking me questions about the sites on the internet where the fifthnail blog was, I couldn't give him the exact url because I couldn't remember it and couldn't look it up on my computer. I could only remember the planethuff/darkside url.

My computer has been very reliable and that was the first time in a year it had ever quit on me like that.
I thought that I had heard that the blog for the fifth nail had been taken off of the internet or off of the blog? is that correct? I remember looking at it once or twice, but could not continue through the reading, much of it had evil tones that I just couldn't continue reading.

[mysteriew]

A weird thing happened right before the investigator called. I was in the middle of writing a post on here about this case and my computer's display went black on me. I couldn't get it to do a thing. So when the investigator was asking me questions about the sites on the internet where the fifthnail blog was, I couldn't give him the exact url because I couldn't remember it and couldn't look it up on my computer. I could only remember the planethuff/darkside url.

My computer has been very reliable and that was the first time in a year it had ever quit on me like that.

Do us all a favor. If an investigator does show up? Take notes about his reactions. Then when he leaves, get on here and let us all know how it went.
Usually they dismiss internet sleuthers as not able to figure out much.

[mysteriew]

You know the more I think about it, the more I wonder. This guy mentions "Beaner" in his blog. But he is paranoid to the max. I am sure that he expected that LE would be reading his blog. I think that "Beaner" was a red herring, meant to give LE something to search for. Something he knew he was innocent of. Something to make them work for, but get nothing.
I am extremely glad that they aren't taking any chances but are looking into it, but somehow I think they will find he has an alibi for that one. I don't think they will find any mention of any crimes he committed in the public blogs. Maybe in the encrypted ones, but I don't know.......... he was pretty paranoid.

[jblfelines]

The Short case came to my mind when he was first caught with Shasta. Knowing he would kill for children then this could have a connection. I emailed Greta Van Susteren about my thoughts also. This man has traveled a lot and he is capable of anything. He writes that he has "gotten even and not been caught"(these are his words).

With the family gone someone must speak for this family. This was a brutal crime against the Short family.

[Snikx]

Do us all a favor. If an investigator does show up? Take notes about his reactions. Then when he leaves, get on here and let us all know how it went.
Usually they dismiss internet sleuthers as not able to figure out much.

Yes, of course I'd post about it if an FBI agent called me or came to my house. I was just so surprised when he wanted my physical address, wouldn't just take my post office box address, and then gave me the reason why. We're very private about our street address. He wanted my birth date too.

I am sure they generally dismiss internet sleuthers and 58 year old women who call them with suggestions. The ironic thing is that last night's TV program about the Groene family & Joseph Duncan had nothing in it that I can remember that I hadn't already read on an online site.

I may call him again in a week or two and see if they did any looking into whether Duncan was in that area in August of 2002. Credit card records (if they keep them that long?), motel registrations, scuba diving businesses in the area with any records of customers, etc.

[Snikx]

I thought that I had heard that the blog for the fifth nail had been taken off of the internet or off of the blog? is that correct? I remember looking at it once or twice, but could not continue through the reading, much of it had evil tones that I just couldn't continue reading.

Not taken off yet. Although images are missing when I load it now.

http://fifthnail.blogspot.com/

This one is also very good. Note that it is NOT kept by Joseph Duncan but by someone who wants to preserve the information.

http://jetd63.blogspot.com/

And then, of course, there is http://www.planethuff.com/darkside which is excellent also as a collecting point for information. Excellent writing too.

[Snikx]

The Short case came to my mind when he was first caught with Shasta. Knowing he would kill for children then this could have a connection. I emailed Greta Van Susteren about my thoughts also. This man has traveled a lot and he is capable of anything. He writes that he has "gotten even and not been caught"(these are his words).

With the family gone someone must speak for this family. This was a brutal crime against the Short family.

Can anyone here remember another case within the last five years (since Duncan was released from prison) where a family was killed in order to abduct and molest a child? I can't think of one other than the Short family (assuming that the daughter was molested. They may not have been able to determine that as she had been dead for a while when they found her.) That is one major reason why the Short family came to my mind. This kind of family murder is very rare. Am I forgetting cases that others can recall?

[Snikx]

You know the more I think about it, the more I wonder. This guy mentions "Beaner" in his blog. But he is paranoid to the max. I am sure that he expected that LE would be reading his blog. I think that "Beaner" was a red herring, meant to give LE something to search for. Something he knew he was innocent of. Something to make them work for, but get nothing.
I am extremely glad that they aren't taking any chances but are looking into it, but somehow I think they will find he has an alibi for that one. I don't think they will find any mention of any crimes he committed in the public blogs. Maybe in the encrypted ones, but I don't know.......... he was pretty paranoid.

Actually, if he was paranoid to the MAX, he never would have kept an online blog.
I think he kept the blog for a few reasons. I agree with Steve Huff of planethuff (http://www.planethuff.com/darkside) that he wanted to use it as an alibi. He is entirely too defensive about this girl and also about the two boys.
I also think that like other narcissistic creatures he had a certain pride in getting away with things, especially when he referred to his acts as his revenge on society. What good is revenge if no one knows about it? So the blog is his little game of I-gotcha-but-you-don't-know-how-I-gotcha-and-I'm-gonna-tease-you-with-possible-clues-while-pleading-innocence-and-victimization.
And finally he may have realized that he would be going back to prison and spending the rest of his life there so the blog is also his way of giving his last good byes to "society". His kind of "________ you!" to the rest of us. A final communique. After all he was diagnosed as a narcissist too.
Drove a red car of which he was proud. Then rented another RED car while he was on the run. Who uses a RED car as their car to get away in? Red? I would call the color "narcissistic red"!
Then he takes the little girl to the town where he murdered her family and takes her into a restaurant. It truly is as though he wants to be caught or wants to experience the risk of narrow escapes. He leaves so many clues. Why mention a code in his blog if he doesn't WANT what he's done to be KNOWN? He DOES want to be KNOWN. Not for any good reason that would be understandable to most of us.
If you have done any reading on narcissists, they will take being the worst if they can't have the appearance of being the best.To them the worst is about equal to the best.
My guess is that he did murder the little girl missing from Chisholm too.

[newtv]

Great thread and I think that he shold be investigated for any murders or molestations if he was anywhere near that city/location at the same time one occured.
I dont think it undermines the pros to have that happen. Who cares if now we associate evryone dead with him? They had to do that with picton and the green river murderer. They even associated the green river murderer with picton and vancouver. Its natural and a good thing and I do not worry at all that it will give the defense an opening to say he is now being scapegoated and cannot get a fair trial.
They will try it-its what they get paid to do-but I have no worries about him getting the needle.
What bugs me about these people is that if they want to kill themselves thats one thing-but dont take kids with you. If he wanted to be stopped and go back to prison, then leave them alive and hurt yourself.

[Sofia]

Actually, if he was paranoid to the MAX, he never would have kept an online blog.
I think he kept the blog for a few reasons. I agree with Steve Huff of planethuff (http://www.planethuff.com/darkside) that he wanted to use it as an alibi. He is entirely too defensive about this girl and also about the two boys.
I also think that like other narcissistic creatures he had a certain pride in getting away with things, especially when he referred to his acts as his revenge on society. What good is revenge if no one knows about it? So the blog is his little game of I-gotcha-but-you-don't-know-how-I-gotcha-and-I'm-gonna-tease-you-with-possible-clues-while-pleading-innocence-and-victimization.
And finally he may have realized that he would be going back to prison and spending the rest of his life there so the blog is also his way of giving his last good byes to "society". His kind of "________ you!" to the rest of us. A final communique. After all he was diagnosed as a narcissist too.
Drove a red car of which he was proud. Then rented another RED car while he was on the run. Who uses a RED car as their car to get away in? Red? I would call the color "narcissistic red"!
Then he takes the little girl to the town where he murdered her family and takes her into a restaurant. It truly is as though he wants to be caught or wants to experience the risk of narrow escapes. He leaves so many clues. Why mention a code in his blog if he doesn't WANT what he's done to be KNOWN? He DOES want to be KNOWN. Not for any good reason that would be understandable to most of us.
If you have done any reading on narcissists, they will take being the worst if they can't have the appearance of being the best.To them the worst is about equal to the best.
I agree. I think he knew enough about computers to have kept everything secret, but that's not as exciting as dangling it out there...hence the codes and blogs, etc.

[mic730]

I remember during the Short investigation I found a fmaily murdered in either Mississippi or a southern state liek that. it was listed on the state poilce website. Again nothing was taken but the Mom was killen in the house and the Dad and children were found dead at a river with the family car. They had ruled out murder/suicide. I may have some details of this wrong. I don't remember the date it happened.
Here is link of the Short timeline for those interested.

http://www.news-record.com/news/short/

I am sure Snikx you have all ready been at this link. That I remember Jennifer's reamins were too bably decomposed to gather sexual assault info. She was in water and when the dogs first found her skull the Henry County Sheriffs off said a hair sample DID NOT match Jennifer. Then the DNA came back.
Michelle


Can anyone here remember another case within the last five years (since Duncan was released from prison) where a family was killed in order to abduct and molest a child? I can't think of one other than the Short family (assuming that the daughter was molested. They may not have been able to determine that as she had been dead for a while when they found her.) That is one major reason why the Short family came to my mind. This kind of family murder is very rare. Am I forgetting cases that others can recall?

[jblfelines]

I just sent an email to Nancy Grace about the possible similarities in these two cases. It is rare that families are killed and children abducted. I really think someone needs to look into the Short case.

We do know that Duncan was roaming free in our society at the time of the Short murders in August 2002

[Cowgirl]

I really don't think Duncan has even visited the state of Virginia. He has made no reference to it at all and yet has mentioned other places he has travelled. The crime was out in the boonies from the description of it, and for someone to commit such a crime, one would think he would need time there to plan it out and get his bearings. What would be so special about Virginia with nothing else -- no friends, no family -- to draw him there? I think it is far more likely that the man with maps to the victim's house was the guy who did this, and 68 is not that old. And Duncan is not one of a kind, unfortunately. There are a lot of whack jobs in our midst.

That said, Snikx did all that can be done. I had to laugh when I read that the LE guy asked for a date of birth -- they do that to run a person for warrants! LOL, Snikx must have sounded waaaay too interested for him. Oh well. I often think of that when others have said they were going to email or call the FBI -- they always run people. They want to know with whom they are dealing.

[twinkiesmom]

Another similarity between the Short and Groene cases is the proximity of the houses to a main highway.

[Cowgirl]

Another similarity between the Short and Groene cases is the proximity of the houses to a main highway.But one gigantic fact is that he came from Washington state, went to prison in Washington state, and knew the area in the northwest. From the Dateline piece, you can see the Groene home from I-90, the only road he would take to his mother's in Tacoma.

He also has been down to the San Francisco area and to three separate areas of Florida -- Key West out in the southern-most Gulf, Ft Lauderdale on the east coast and Tampa on the west coast (New Port Richey is 45 minutes north of Tampa) and all three are quite distant from each other. Surely if this guy ever travelled in Virginia or anyplace else on the east coast he would have mentioned it, particularly the rural parts. It's not impossible since no one knows for sure but the idea of a guy driving to a place he has never been before when he always flies to Florida -- it just seems too unlikely. And he is not the only nut job in the world!

[Liz]

Bumping this up since the Short murders are being discussed on another thread. :)

Isn't JED's sister living down south in Georgia?

[mysteriew]

Is there a dive club in or around Fargo?

I haven't heard anything about Short on either the Cellar or Planethuff blogs.
Have they discussed this? Has anyone contacted them with this info?

Here are the things that stand out for me. First- Virginia assoc. with scuba diving. If Duncan took vacation to go to a dive meet, he most likely would have driven because of the equipment he would have had to carry. Both diving equipment, and he seems to camp or stay with friends rather than stay in a motel. Second- Sister in Ga. Duncan liked to travel, if he was driving to the East coast to a dive meet, I wouldn't think he would have found it out of line to drive down to his sister's while he was on the same coast. Third- the child was possibly kept alive for a period of time (comparing the area she was found in to the area she went missing from, and the length of time before she was found) Fourth as a camper, you learn how to find the type of camping area you prefer even if you are going to be in an unfamiliar area. There are all sorts of brochures and magazine ads describing the "rustic, unspoiled beauty" of the Smoky mountains. As an experienced camper, he would have noticed in driving- areas which might be suited to the "remote" camping he might have needed.
The only thing that is missing here is some type of verification that he was off work and attending a dive in the area during that time period.

[Cowgirl]

Steve Huff says in his blog that he has had more referrals to Jennifer Short's murder than any other of those that have been discussed. The skin diving locale and the murder of her family in order to get her seem to be the similarities people have focused on. I think the skin diving thing has much more promise as a connection than the fact that Duncan has a sister who lives just east of Atlanta, Georgia in Centerville, which is close to 400 miles from Bassett, VA where the Short family lived.

I don't think he belonged to a Fargo dive club, at least, he didn't mention one that I remember. It seems he spent a lot of time with the folks from a club associated with the Detroit Lakes scuba shop called the Pink Barracuda Dive Shop.

If he ever did any east coast travel, he never mentioned it in his blog. Only the trips to Florida were mentioned and there were three of them mentioned. He flew each of those times, so that is not the connection.

[CaliKid]

Better to investigate everything, no matter how unlikely, and be wrong than to dismiss it and overlook a possible suspect. Good thinking, Snikx.

[Cowgirl]

Better to investigate everything, no matter how unlikely, and be wrong than to dismiss it and overlook a possible suspect. Good thinking, Snikx.Oh, I think it is a good bet that all the local LE agencies are trying to find out if they can clear some of their open cases...nothing better after a tragedy that is unsolved than to at least solve it.

[Liz]

Better to investigate everything, no matter how unlikely, and be wrong than to dismiss it and overlook a possible suspect. Good thinking, Snikx.


I agree with you; and I was glad to hear about cities, such as Oak Harbor, WA, re-opening their cold case files.

I think it would be hard to conceive of anyone committing a crime as horrendous as the Groene / McKenzie case, as their initial murder. JMO

Nice to 'see' you posting here, again, CaliKid! :)

[Wayne]

Bumping this up since the Short murders are being discussed on another thread. :)

Isn't JED's sister living down south in Georgia?
Yes. And another sister - a half-sister - is in the military (Air Force I believe) and could have been stationed anywhere during 2002.

[Wayne]

Is there a dive club in or around Fargo?

I haven't heard anything about Short on either the Cellar or Planethuff blogs.
Have they discussed this? Has anyone contacted them with this info?

Here are the things that stand out for me. First- Virginia assoc. with scuba diving. If Duncan took vacation to go to a dive meet, he most likely would have driven because of the equipment he would have had to carry. Both diving equipment, and he seems to camp or stay with friends rather than stay in a motel. Second- Sister in Ga. Duncan liked to travel, if he was driving to the East coast to a dive meet, I wouldn't think he would have found it out of line to drive down to his sister's while he was on the same coast. Third- the child was possibly kept alive for a period of time (comparing the area she was found in to the area she went missing from, and the length of time before she was found) Fourth as a camper, you learn how to find the type of camping area you prefer even if you are going to be in an unfamiliar area. There are all sorts of brochures and magazine ads describing the "rustic, unspoiled beauty" of the Smoky mountains. As an experienced camper, he would have noticed in driving- areas which might be suited to the "remote" camping he might have needed.
The only thing that is missing here is some type of verification that he was off work and attending a dive in the area during that time period.
Did JED own dive equipment or did he rent it? I have a friend who scuba dives and he always rents most of his equipment.

IMO, it seems JED would travel before the school term would begin. IMO, mid-August (when the Short family was murdered and Jennifer abducted) would be a logical time prior to the fall school term beginning.

I agree with your remark - the only thing that is missing here is some type of verification that he was off work and attending a dive in the area during that time period.

[Incognito]

<snip>Is there a dive club in or around Fargo?

I haven't heard anything about Short on either the Cellar or Planethuff blogs.
Have they discussed this? Has anyone contacted them with this info?

.
Here is a list of dive shops in the area

http://home.earthlink.net/~fmdivenews/fmdivenews.shtml

[dragonfly]

Steve Huff over at Planethuff - Darkside is now mentioniong Jennifer Short. He also mentions information sent to him from "Wayne"...could that be our own WS Wayne?

Anyway, more info at the darkside website http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/ as always scroll down till you fine this case and reference as Steve covers a lot.

From Darkside;
"At first I doubted a connection between Duncan and the Short family murders, then upon hearing this information I had to wonder if he had enough of a familial connection in the south to justify his having been there at any time in the past 5 years. That a relative would have moved one of Duncan's geocached treasures to North Carolina doesn't seem random, to me, and though another man has been considered a suspect in the past in this crime, the geocaching info swings the pendulum a little closer to Jet. As I was writing this entry reader "Wayne" wrote to let me know that there was a scuba diving show of some sort in Virginia in August, 2002 -- the same month the Shorts were murdered. Incidentally, I think I've received more "tip" e-mails about the Short case in relation to Joseph Duncan than any other. Other cases suggested recently, about which I'm not so sure..."

[Cowgirl]

Did JED own dive equipment or did he rent it? I have a friend who scuba dives and he always rents most of his equipment.

IMO, it seems JED would travel before the school term would begin. IMO, mid-August (when the Short family was murdered and Jennifer abducted) would be a logical time prior to the fall school term beginning.

I agree with your remark - the only thing that is missing here is some type of verification that he was off work and attending a dive in the area during that time period.Most of us who dive as a sport, a hobby, and not for a living prefer to rent anything to do with tanks and regulators, etc. We all own some stuff--snorkels, fins, masks and wet/dry suits--but because your very life depends on it, tanks need regular servicing and so do regulators to keep them in good working order. I would far rather use the equipment rented from a dive shop than to count on my own being up to par, especially in salt water which eats stuff up when it lies around.

[Shelayne]

So the question then is: did Duncan rent any SCUBA equipment--probably tanks- anywhere around that time period? My hubby dives, too, and he has everything, but the tanks. If he is driving, he rents tanks from his favorite local dive shop, as he trusts them and it has good rates, but obviously doesn't fly with tanks. His SCUBA equipment, though, is very heavy in and of itself, and he hauls it in a huge duffel bag. It has to be checked when we fly, but he removes the regulator and dive computer into a carry-on. Too expensive to lose that equipment.

In his travels, did Duncan combine his love of diving with his love of preying on children? Would he use diving as an alibi? Just thinking out loud...

[Cowgirl]

So the question then is: did Duncan rent any SCUBA equipment--probably tanks- anywhere around that time period? My hubby dives, too, and he has everything, but the tanks. If he is driving, he rents tanks from his favorite local dive shop, as he trusts them and it has good rates, but obviously doesn't fly with tanks. His SCUBA equipment, though, is very heavy in and of itself, and he hauls it in a huge duffel bag. It has to be checked when we fly, but he removes the regulator and dive computer into a carry-on. Too expensive to lose that equipment.

In his travels, did Duncan combine his love of diving with his love of preying on children? Would he use diving as an alibi? Just thinking out loud...The Detroit Lakes offense--the offense he was indicted and bonded out for--he was supposed to dive that day and that was where the Pink Barracuda dive shop is. Now what his intent was that day is unknown and if his plans were cancelled by others or by his own decision, we don't know. Perhaps he only spotted that park one time while he was over there on a dive trip? Only that whack job would know and he lied so much he probably lies to himself too. But I don't think his trips to Florida included much preying on children. Perhaps he always scouts out his hunting grounds before hand. He seems to be in a car or truck to give him an escape and often in Florida he was in someone else's car, like the doctor's. I even wonder if perhaps he got spooked that day in the park with those Detroit Lakes boys and that he intended to abduct and murder them? It would be similar to what he did in California--going out of town to commit crimes--but there was another witness in Detroit Lakes whose name had not been revealed but who saw his vehicle in the park that day and maybe the boys got lucky when that person was nearby...

[dragonfly]

The Detroit Lakes offense--the offense he was indicted and bonded out for--he was supposed to dive that day and that was where the Pink Barracuda dive shop is. Now what his intent was that day is unknown and if his plans were cancelled by others or by his own decision, we don't know. Perhaps he only spotted that park one time while he was over there on a dive trip? Only that whack job would know and he lied so much he probably lies to himself too. But I don't think his trips to Florida included much preying on children. Perhaps he always scouts out his hunting grounds before hand. He seems to be in a car or truck to give him an escape and often in Florida he was in someone else's car, like the doctor's. I even wonder if perhaps he got spooked that day in the park with those Detroit Lakes boys and that he intended to abduct and murder them? It would be similar to what he did in California--going out of town to commit crimes--but there was another witness in Detroit Lakes whose name had not been revealed but who saw his vehicle in the park that day and maybe the boys got lucky when that person was nearby...
Seems I remember an interview with a mother who was at the park that day with her kids. She said she notice JED because he had his shirt off and was hang from the monkey bar playing with the kids prior to selecting the two young boys that he tried to molest that day. She said she knew something was amiss with this strange guy and called her kids away from him.

[Vet4Bush]

Snikx

They prolly put a tap on your phoneline. If you have dialup the wiretap prolly affected your dialup connection, that's why your screen went blank.

[Shelayne]

Seems I remember an interview with a mother who was at the park that day with her kids. She said she notice JED because he had his shirt off and was hang from the monkey bar playing with the kids prior to selecting the two young boys that he tried to molest that day. She said she knew something was amiss with this strange guy and called her kids away from him.

Oh my goodness! Thank the Lord for that little voice that tells you something is not right!

I think those little boys somehow escaped the fate he had planned for them. Thank God!

[Wayne]

Steve Huff over at Planethuff - Darkside is now mentioniong Jennifer Short. He also mentions information sent to him from "Wayne"...could that be our own WS Wayne?
Yes - that is me.

[mysteriew]

Yes - that is me.

Thank you for making sure the family came to their attention. I really think this one needs to be looked at closely, but I was afraid that the geography of it would leave it unchecked. Now it is publically out there, so some attention will be paid.