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View Full Version : John Douglas "Discredited"


Maxi
11-29-2003, 09:33 PM
At the time of the Atlanta child killings, it was common wisdom among profilers that serial killers usually killed within their own race. That's probably why Douglas and others assumed the killer would be black.

Of course, there are people who are not saying Wayne Williams was not really the killer.

sissi
11-29-2003, 09:38 PM
I don't remember too much about the unibomber,except that he was very well educated,PHD I believe,not bad looking,at one point wanted to be a woman but backed away from a sex change,and lived alone in the woods with his bombs. A real woman,a date,a wife,I don't recall one,but maybe someone else knows.

Maxi
12-01-2003, 08:27 AM
Singular and Douglas? How weird is that?! I thought Singular was a pretty good writer, and he had done some good digging for his angle on the case. Unfortunately, he hadn't finished his research before he published his book. All he really had were leads. His book is worthwhile mainly for the extensive info from Pam Griffin.

Shylock
12-01-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Imon128
According to Steve's book, page 148, hardback, on Smit:
"...It had been around only about seventy-two hours, not anywhere near long enough to devour the case material.......He said, 'I don't the it was the Ramseys." Yeah, Smit is a smart guy. It only took him 72 hours to figure out which position would put him in the limelight--so he got on that road and hasn't left it.

Imon128
12-01-2003, 09:09 AM
So true. AND, the coup de gras is that he's on Keenan and Kompany's 'fresh eyes' team!!!!! Oh, mah gawd.

IMO, Smit has made a fool of himself by going so public with ludicrous evidence such as the basement window, etc. Anybody can see that forensics would be left ALL over the place, the way that Lou came in that window. Geezo Peezo.

The "FOX" put the BPD on his nose, swimming across the water, but I think the FOX got eaten in this case. Vivé la fables, eh? LOL

ajt400
12-01-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Sabrina
A super sleuther, Sagan, from Purgatory found this article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001801223_greenriver26m.html


Profiler can't recall why he said letter wasn't from Green River killer

By Duff Wilson
Seattle Times staff reporter

Families to address court at Dec. hearing

FBI criminal profiler John E. Douglas misidentified an anonymous 1984 letter from Green River killer Gary L. Ridgway in the midst of the nation's worst serial-killing spree.

Douglas wrote that the letter was "a feeble and amateurish attempt" by someone who "has no connection with the Green River Homicides."

He was wrong.

Ridgway, as part of his confession to police, admitted earlier this year that he wrote that letter. Police say that had they known that, it could have helped them catch him earlier.

The Ridgway letter and Douglas' analysis were released yesterday by the Green River Task Force under the state's open-records law.

See link for rest of article. I believe we can now say Mr. Douglas is discredited.

Why is everone quick to defend Foster, but you say this one article discreditsa any info that Douglas has given any murder investigations so far? What about the ones he has been correct on?

ajt400
12-01-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Imon128
According to Steve's book, page 148, hardback, on Smit:

"His sole job in Boulder, we were told by the DA's office, would be to implement his particularly successful system of indexing, organizing, and cross-referencing the case file."...

MORE from the same page regarding Smit:

"...He had been around only about seventy-two hours, not anywhere near long enough to devour the case material, but we hoped he might have some initial insights. He did.

Lou shifted the toothpick to a corner of his mouth, and his eyes twinkled with the excitement of a good bird dog on point. He said, 'I don't think it was the Ramseys.'

HE NEVER BUDGED FROM THAT POSITION." (caps mine)

Edited to correct quote.

And the BPD has never shifted on their position, either. Maybe the DA told ST that all he was doing was organizing files because the BPD made a mess of the whole investigation. Of course someone needs to organize the files! I wonder if they even had all the info in one room!

Also, the BPD made the assumption that the parents were guilty as soon as the body was found. Was that enough time to "devour the case material?"

I hardly think the DA would have told ST that Lou Smit was there to clean up his mess, do you?

Toth
12-01-2003, 01:55 PM
I don't think anyone really expects Douglas to have a perfect batting average.

ajt400
12-01-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
Sabrina is right about John Douglas's forum being like a fan club. I ventured over there to read what they were saying about the Ramsey case expecting some intelligent discussion and the first JonBenet thread I found was full of stuff like "JD is such a hottie". I found several posats of the same on the one thread and read no further. I then posted about this at purg and one of the JD members (who is also a member at Yonder Forum - easily recognisable by her adoration for John Douglas) started a thread to have a b*tch about me! Some of the responses seemed genuinely taken aback and I felt quite bad about it so I actually went there and apologised to them. However, the reaction was along the lines of 'Oh we can't accept your apology what you did was unforgivable.... blah blah'. One of the members was actually very threatening (Sabrina will bear me out on this) - said that she was on medication and that she often forgot to take it.

I wonder what JD really thinks about his band of wannabee-profilers?

I can actually picture the above member sitting at her computer and writing her posts in praise of the Almighty JD whilst wearing her Mindhunter baseball cap, her Mindhunter tee-shirt and supping coffee from her Mindhunter coffee mug. It conjures up a wonderful mental image :-)

Seriously though, professional admiration is one thing, but some of these folks seem to go way beyond that.

I agree that his website was a let down. I didn't go there expecting a carnival though. Just some info on some cases he has worked.....I don't pay attention to anything he sells, because I a'int buying it anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Besides, I see very few websites (or anything else, for that matter) that don't have something for sale.

Imon128
12-01-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Toth
I don't think anyone really expects Douglas to have a perfect batting average.

Boy Howdy!!! His batting average, unless you ask HIM, of course, has really gone down hill, along with his reputation. Don't rule him out, though, as trying to hang onto the R's skirttail to get himself some much wanted attention. This is JMO.

ajt400
12-01-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Imon128
IMO, John Douglas cut his own throat by coming out with a profile without having all the facts. I have no respect for the man anymore as he seems to be all about himself. JMO, of course. :-)

So how did Foster not "cut his own throat" by writing PR a letter saying that he believed she was not the writer of the ransom note and he would stake his professional reputation on that fact? He had just as much as Douglas did?

Imon128
12-01-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by ajt400
So how did Foster not "cut his own throat" by writing PR a letter saying that he believed she was not the writer of the ransom note and he would stake his professional reputation on that fact? He had just as much as Douglas did?

I see no comparison between Foster and Douglas. ******* gave Foster false info to work with (she lied)...well!!! Wait! Did the R's give Douglas false info, too?

ajt400
12-01-2003, 02:11 PM
But didn't Douglas take the backlash when that was released to the public? No one in Atl wanted to believe this was a black offender. (Some still don't)

Maxi
12-01-2003, 06:23 PM
I think Douglas may literally not remember why he said the Green River killer letter was a fake. He was very ill at the time he was working on the case. The illness has been described in several different ways, but all affect the brain. (I'm not being sarcastic, I really think he may have lost memory of that time.)

Imon128
12-01-2003, 06:25 PM
If Douglas was that ill at that time, and knew it, why would he be doing such important work? Of course, if he wasn't seeking active treatment, that'd be another story. However, I think if he was that ill, he'd be under a doctor's care and surely not doing such important work. JMO, though.

Sabrina
12-01-2003, 06:42 PM
Here's the other "high profile
profiler's sites: (the only thing I see for sale is books)


http://www.robertkressler.com/

http://www.criminalprofiler.com/bio.htm

http://www.threatlink.com/about/ourpresident.htm

Sabrina
12-01-2003, 06:56 PM
Blazeboy, I haven't read Douglas' new book but I have to wonder why he partnered himself up with Singular.

Shylock
12-02-2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
So how did Foster not "cut his own throat" by writing PR a letter saying that he believed she was not the writer of the ransom note and he would stake his professional reputation on that fact? We've been over this MANY times before. Foster wrote that note before he saw ANY of the case evidence. He wrote it with high hopes of interjecting himself in the case.
Later, after seeing ALL the evidence it was obvious to him who wrote the note--and none of his previous wishful thinking could change that.

If Foster had never seen the case evidence he would probably be walking around to this day telling people that Patsy is innocent in his opinion.

Maxi
12-02-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Imon128
If Douglas was that ill at that time, and knew it, why would he be doing such important work? Of course, if he wasn't seeking active treatment, that'd be another story. However, I think if he was that ill, he'd be under a doctor's care and surely not doing such important work. JMO, though.

My recollection is that he didn't realize how sick he was til he collapsed. He was then hospitalized and almost died. I believe he had an infection or inflammation of the brain. He was quite delirious, if not actually unconscious, for days.

SisterSocks
12-02-2003, 07:02 PM
Yep that was my idea too Maxi !!!!!

ajt400
12-04-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Imon128
I see no comparison between Foster and Douglas. ******* gave Foster false info to work with (she lied)...well!!! Wait! Did the R's give Douglas false info, too?


I thought that Foster was working with NO case files or insider information. That is what I get off the Defending Foster thread. He just jumped the gun....to weasle his way in with the R's.

ajt400
12-04-2003, 03:57 PM
I read on another forum that Douglas has had an alcohol problem, does anyone has any sort of documentation for that?

They made the comment that he was never really sick in Seattle, that he had a drinking problem and woke up in the hospital.....is their truth to this?

Maxi
12-04-2003, 07:25 PM
I've read that Douglas had viral meningitis or encephalitis (I get those two things mixed up) when he was working on the Green River case. In any event, he was seriously ill. There was another time (maybe in NY) when his sudden "illness" was said to be caused by alcohol. Douglas seems to be an intense person, so who knows how much his emotions affect his physical health. I still think he's an excellent profiler, tho I prefer Ressler's steadier style.

Imon128
12-04-2003, 07:33 PM
In one of his books, Douglas admits to being an alcoholic...I believe he said he was a recovering alcoholic.

ajt400
12-05-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
I've read that Douglas had viral meningitis or encephalitis (I get those two things mixed up) when he was working on the Green River case. In any event, he was seriously ill. There was another time (maybe in NY) when his sudden "illness" was said to be caused by alcohol. Douglas seems to be an intense person, so who knows how much his emotions affect his physical health. I still think he's an excellent profiler, tho I prefer Ressler's steadier style.



I do believe alot of people in our country could be considered alcoholics......not an excuse BTW. It could be worse, it could be heroin.

ajt400
12-05-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Imon128
In one of his books, Douglas admits to being an alcoholic...I believe he said he was a recovering alcoholic.

Which book would that be? I have read all but maybe 2 of his books and I have never read that in any of them.....I would be interested in seeing it.

ajt400
12-05-2003, 09:46 AM
I do think that Ressler is better and I have always enjoyed his books more than Douglas'. He seems more concentrated on the crime than anything.....

Blazeboy3
12-06-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Imon128
I see no comparison between Foster and Douglas. ******* gave Foster false info to work with (she lied)...well!!! Wait! Did the R's give Douglas false info, too?

Probably in hindsite(not knowing)WOW?(!)...ROFLMAO(?)!Thanks! Have a Good Day(hum?)!:dontknow:

Blazeboy3
12-06-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by ajt400
Which book would that be? I have read all but maybe 2 of his books and I have never read that in any of them.....I would be interested in seeing it. \\\


Who wouldn't "drink to take away the PAIN?!"... I too haven't read this in any of his books but I'm open-minded to change!; it's an interesting thought & UNDERSTANDIBLY I can relate/comprehend such behavior in this day/age ... (LOL:!)~:)

guppy
12-06-2003, 12:04 PM
So, is there any evidence the Green River Killer actually wrote this letter, or are we just taking his word for it?

Toltec
12-07-2003, 04:00 PM
Douglas stated that one of post-murder behaviors is "finding religion". When Douglas initially met with John and Patsy, he noticed Patsy walking in wearing a huge cross around her neck....TEE HEE!

OH...and didn't Patsy begin to chain-smoke too?

ajt400
12-08-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Toltec
Douglas stated that one of post-murder behaviors is "finding religion". When Douglas initially met with John and Patsy, he noticed Patsy walking in wearing a huge cross around her neck....TEE HEE!



Yes, you are quite correct on that one, but if you had bothered to read the rest of the paragraph, you would have noticed that Douglas looked in many pictures prior to the murder and saw the same exact cross on PR's neck. (DUH) She had it since her cancer days...

Imon128
12-08-2003, 04:40 PM
Okay, that means the R's are exempt, sure. :-)

ajt400
12-08-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by guppy
So, is there any evidence the Green River Killer actually wrote this letter, or are we just taking his word for it?


Technically, taking his word for it. I think there were probably more than one serial killer in Seattle at that time.

Sabrina
12-20-2003, 07:55 PM
That's interesting Ajt. Do you know how many prostitute murders are unsolved and unaccounted for in Seattle that Ridgeway did not confess to?

There were some unsolved prostitute murders in San Diego that were thought to have been by the Green River killer, Ridgeway had some relatives living in San Diego at the time as well and he was thought to have visited them.

However, these homicides cannot be linked up to him with any forensic evidence, even though the m.o. was very similar.

Sabrina
12-20-2003, 08:01 PM
I forgot to add I just read a book about the Unabomber. John Douglas was so far off it wasn't funny.

There are several references in "Mindhunter" to drinking, although he does not state in this book that he is an alcoholic. I found that alcoholics --recovered or not--seem to focus on drinking, and mention it much more than a non alcoholic would, they place much more importance on it--and it really is irrelevant in "Mindhunter", yet it was mentioned.

I seem to recall reading somewhere else all about his alcoholism. Although I've read all of his books, this is the only one that I actually own.

Sabrina
12-20-2003, 08:13 PM
John Douglas stated last week that he is selling merchandise to "offset" the cost of his web site which is quite expensive.

Hello? It appears his website is run by his publisher, Spartan Literary Associates. Giving it the benefit of the doubt, amd lets say not-- the website appears to me to be very commercial -- advertises his books and appearances rather than serving as a free public service. There is however, a very small forum with a handful of members. The forum software is not very good and it is very slow loading. There is not much bandwidth being used from what I can tell.

We had a discussion of web site costs at another forum, perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable can guess at what the bill is....maybe around $50 a month? ( I am going by a friend who pays $65 a month for much,much more.....) I found his comment somewhat offensive. I do not believe the merchandise was set up to "offset" the cost. I think it's more to "commercialize" the name "Mindhunter" and self promote.

I do like the "flash" introduction and think it's very well done, however I've seen the notebook style background template around in free graphics sites.
http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/flash.htm

Blazeboy3
12-21-2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Sabrina
John Douglas stated last week that he is selling merchandise to "offset" the cost of his web site which is quite expensive.

Hello? It appears his website is run by his publisher, Spartan Literary Associates. Giving it the benefit of the doubt, amd lets say not-- the website appears to me to be very commercial -- advertises his books and appearances rather than serving as a free public service. There is however, a very small forum with a handful of members. The forum software is not very good and it is very slow loading. There is not much bandwidth being used from what I can tell.

We had a discussion of web site costs at another forum, perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable can guess at what the bill is....maybe around $50 a month? ( I am going by a friend who pays $65 a month for much,much more.....) I found his comment somewhat offensive. I do not believe the merchandise was set up to "offset" the cost. I think it's more to "commercialize" the name "Mindhunter" and self promote.

I do like the "flash" introduction and think it's very well done, however I've seen the notebook style background template around in free graphics sites.
http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/flash.htm

Thanks for the url/info; FWIW--I couldn't finish reading MINDHUNTER (BUT loved the/his website)...just could'nt read his book but I've read ALL JONBENET BOOKS(+the hard-to-buy-obtain-books--out of print books! ... go figure hum? ...got them all and read them all...what's that mean in english terms these days ... ??? ) ... !!!...:bigthumb::dontknow:

Interesting JD website...WHERE'S JONBENET'S(FAMILY)WEBSITE?
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.49/aid.1034/column.htm
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.49/aid.1034/column.htm

:confused:

ajt400
12-26-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Sabrina
That's interesting Ajt. Do you know how many prostitute murders are unsolved and unaccounted for in Seattle that Ridgeway did not confess to?

There were some unsolved prostitute murders in San Diego that were thought to have been by the Green River killer, Ridgeway had some relatives living in San Diego at the time as well and he was thought to have visited them.

However, these homicides cannot be linked up to him with any forensic evidence, even though the m.o. was very similar.

Many many people confess to crimes they did not commit. Case in point, Henry Lee Lucas; in the early 80's he confessed to around 600 murders. As soon as police started to bring cases against him, they began to see that in some (many) cases he wasn't even in the same state anywhere near the time of the murder! He is only 'credited' with probably 5 or 6.

There are probably hundreds of cases of prostitutes being murdered/assaulted/raped that we will never know of and obviously haven't been solved. He led investigators to 4 bodies that they never knew were there! Also, alot of the bodies in the GR were so decomposed you couldn't tell much from them. (Essentially when 1 body was found, they usually found 3 or 4 more in the same vicinity!)

If I remember correctly, MO can be changed, signature cannot. MO is how you commit the crimes, strangulation, stabbing, beating,etc. Signature is what the killer feels he needs to do--what fulfills him in the act of.

As far as Ridgway goes, I do think he was one, but defineltely not the only one.

ajt400
12-26-2003, 04:45 PM
I was discouraged that his website didn't have actual case studies.

Sabrina
12-26-2003, 07:52 PM
Are you saying Ridgeway confessed to crimes you don't think he committed?

I am specially asking about Ridgeway and the Seattle murders. Does anyone know if there are any, and if so , how many unsolved prostitute murders with the same MO in the Seattle area during the time frame Ridgeway was active which have not been attributed to Ridgeway...