Businessman helped Duncan

[SeaHag]

haven't seen this posted here yet:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97434&section=news

A well-known Fargo businessman wrote Joseph Duncan a $15,000 personal check to cover his April bail for two Minnesota child molestation charges, police said Monday. Joe Crary, 51, wrote the check to Duncan on April 5, the same day a Becker County judge set his bail at that amount, said Detroit Lakes Police Investigator Chad Jutz.

Duncan, a registered Level III sex offender who moved to Fargo from a Washington state prison in 2000, was in court that day on charges he molested a boy and tried to touch another in July 2004 on a Detroit Lakes playground. A couple of weeks after posting bail, Duncan went missing.

He's now charged with kidnapping siblings Shasta Groene, 8, and Dylan Groene, 9, and is suspected of murdering their family in rural Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Dylan Groene was found slain last week in a western Montana forest.

EDITED BY DP DUE TO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT - see link for remainder of article.

[ISPTRAX]

Another spoke in the pedo wheel, sounds like...

[Dara]

Thanks, SeaHag!

Cracy uses the word "acquaintance." He helped an "acquaintance" accused of harming children stay out of jail?

A very minor point, but the article states:

Crary said Duncan first posted a personal $15,000 check for bail on April 5, then called Crary on his way home for a loan to cover it. So, looks like Duncan had no qualms about writing a bad check. A tiny crime compared to his many others, but if Crary hadn't given him the money, might he have gone to jail?

[Cowgirl]

Thanks, SeaHag!

Cracy uses the word "acquaintance." He helped an "acquaintance" accused of harming children stay out of jail?

A very minor point, but the article states:

So, looks like Duncan had no qualms about writing a bad check. A tiny crime compared to his many others, but if Crary hadn't given him the money, might he have gone to jail?If he had not covered that check, Duncan would have been arrested immediately. I assume he wrote the check to the county clerk or clerk of the courts, whatever their set up is in Minnesota. Were it to bounce, it would be just as if he had not posted bond at all -- besides the bad check issue which they might also pursue -- but in any case, he would be jailed until he could secure some other means of bail.

I don't think this is a minor point at all, Dara. It now specifically means that this man Crary covering the check is the bottom line reason Duncan was free to commit the crimes he committed. I hope this fool never gets another good night of sleep. I wonder who befriends these kinds of monsters, regardless of their stated reasons. Normal people would run like the wind from such perverts. I have a hard time buying Cracy's story.

And now let me go repair my timeline! Grrrr... I knew there were details that didn't mesh in there!

[joanofarc]

Is anyone suspecting a "pedo" ring here....possibly involving some fine upstanding citizens of Fargo, ND??

[kpass]

Is anyone suspecting a "pedo" ring here....possibly involving some fine upstanding citizens of Fargo, ND??

That's what it sounds like, why would they help him otherwise? They were not 'life long' friends, they were 'acquaintances.' BIZARRE!!!!!!

[Cowgirl]

Is anyone suspecting a "pedo" ring here....possibly involving some fine upstanding citizens of Fargo, ND??I know I am. But then, Michael Jackson says I have a dirty mind. I don't approve of grown men sleeping with little boys. I also do not believe this Crary or Wacksman just "feel sorry" for misunderstood sexual sadists. If nothing else, I suspect kiddy porn exchanges. It could be even worse. And the guy looks like a fruitcake. Sorry, I know looks can be deceiving, but he does.

[less0305]

That's what it sounds like, why would they help him otherwise? They were not 'life long' friends, they were 'acquaintances.' BIZARRE!!!!!!


Someone please explain to me how people have THOUSANDS of dollars laying around to help acquaintances out of legal trouble!!!!!!!!! My husband and I would be hard pressed to come up with bail money for one of our own children, for pete's sake.....and we work 80 hours a week each!!!! In this day and time with the economic situation as it it, WHO has $15,000 laying around to HELP a friend who they already know needs financial help and is living paycheck to paycheck. Just when did Mr. Businessman think JED would repay this $15,000.

Of course, I will say one thing. When I moved to North Dakota many years back, someone there told me this piece of advice..... They said be very, very nice to everyone you meet because they may look like they don't have squat, but most of the folks walking about N.D. always have thousands and thousands of dollars in the pocket of their pants at any given time. They insinuated that most folks were very well off financially, but never would guess that by their appearance. ????? I don't know. Seems very odd to me.

[Dara]

I know I am. But then, Michael Jackson says I have a dirty mind. I don't approve of grown men sleeping with little boys. I also do not believe this Crary or Wacksman just "feel sorry" for misunderstood sexual sadists. If nothing else, I suspect kiddy porn exchanges. It could be even worse. And the guy looks like a fruitcake. Sorry, I know looks can be deceiving, but he does. Which guy do you mean? I didn't see a pic of Crary (but I found one of his brother while looking up info on Cracy; it's a PDF..edited because the link didn't work) but I know what Duncan and Wacksman look like.

Thanks for the timeline, Cowgirl. That's always my weakest area in following cases.

joanofarc, a pedo ring is sure a possibility. It's also possible, I guess, that some people are just really gullible and helpful. But so far we have two professional men who go to great lengths (Wacksman particularly) to help a man they know (at least Wacksman did) serve time for raping a child! I hope LE and the media takes a long, hard look at these men and any others who helped Duncan.

[Incognito]

http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/6528/craryjoe1rr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Joe Crary

http://www.kvlytv11.com/ (http://www.kvlytv11.com/)

[Dara]

Here's some info (http://www.crary.ca/comphistory.asp) about Crary's company.

Hmmm, that Fargo-Cass County Economic Development Corp that Crary was a board member of was once investigated (http://www.eidebailly.com/forensic/articles/2001_2002/article8_24_2001.htm) for possible excessive expenditures.

I'm multi-tasking and doing some hit or miss Googling so this all might not add anything helpful. But just in case, I thought I'd post what I stumbled on.

[Dara]

Thanks, Incognito!

[Nchadwickaz]

Thanks, SeaHag!

Cracy uses the word "acquaintance." He helped an "acquaintance" accused of harming children stay out of jail?

A very minor point, but the article states:

So, looks like Duncan had no qualms about writing a bad check. A tiny crime compared to his many others, but if Crary hadn't given him the money, might he have gone to jail?
This is absurd, I know in az (can't believe that other areas don't also practice), bail has to be in the form of a credit card, cash, or money order..... I know this to be the case locally -- It has to be a secured source.

Something just doen't make sense -- Becker County? I'll have to check that out where the physical location of the bail and post what I found -- but that sounds way off....

[shdbepaintin]

[QUOTE=less0305]Someone please explain to me how people have THOUSANDS of dollars laying around to help acquaintances out of legal trouble!!!!!!!!! My husband and I would be hard pressed to come up with bail money for one of our own children, for pete's sake.....and we work 80 hours a week each!!!! In this day and time with the economic situation as it it, WHO has $15,000 laying around to HELP a friend who they already know needs financial help and is living paycheck to paycheck. Just when did Mr. Businessman think JED would repay this $15,000.

QUOTE]
exactly

[Cowgirl]

This is absurd, I know in az (can't believe that other areas don't also practice), bail has to be in the form of a credit card, cash, or money order..... I know this to be the case locally -- It has to be a secured source.

Something just doen't make sense -- Becker County? I'll have to check that out where the physical location of the bail and post what I found -- but that sounds way off....Nikki, states like yours and mine with so many transients have different policies than some of the northern states have. The crime happened in Detroit Lakes in Becker County.

Here in Texas, some counties still take personal checks, believe it or not, but most do not. Once they get burned by someone (such as this guy--had he not secured money from Crary the check would have bounced) I would think they would stop it, particularly when this was a guy whose bank was in another state, for crying out loud!

In fact, some of the county offices here won't take CASH! They make you get a money order or personal or cashier's check for fines because they had too many problems with their own personnel stealing cash! It is a weird world we live in.

[Cowgirl]

Which guy do you mean? I didn't see a pic of Crary (but I found one of his brother while looking up info on Crary; it's a PDF..edited because the link didn't work) but I know what Duncan and Wacksman look like.

Thanks for the timeline, Cowgirl. That's always my weakest area in following cases.

joanofarc, a pedo ring is sure a possibility. It's also possible, I guess, that some people are just really gullible and helpful. But so far we have two professional men who go to great lengths (Wacksman particularly) to help a man they know (at least Wacksman did) serve time for raping a child! I hope LE and the media takes a long, hard look at these men and any others who helped Duncan.In the In Forum article a picture comes up... check the link that SeaHag posted again.

[mysteriew]

Well, that kind of kicks Duncan's whine that "society" won't give him a chance. He cries "I'm innocent" and says please and 2 guys give him a total of $21,000. Sounds to me like he was getting chances and kicked them in the teeth!

[Cowgirl]

[QUOTE=less0305]Someone please explain to me how people have THOUSANDS of dollars laying around to help acquaintances out of legal trouble!!!!!!!!! My husband and I would be hard pressed to come up with bail money for one of our own children, for pete's sake.....and we work 80 hours a week each!!!! In this day and time with the economic situation as it it, WHO has $15,000 laying around to HELP a friend who they already know needs financial help and is living paycheck to paycheck. Just when did Mr. Businessman think JED would repay this $15,000.

QUOTE]
exactlyI'm with you on this. I own my home free and clear but it would take me several days (I would guess) to come up with that kind of cash and I certainly don't know anyone with that kind of liquid cash. Anything over $5 thousand is invested deeper than savings, that's for sure. I suppose this guy being a business guy had business accounts he could hit. I have good friends who own businesses though and I would feel extremely uncomfortable asking for that kind of cash!

My boyfriend just reminded me that I have credit cards that could yield a lot of cash, but that is a little different than just writing a check, to me.

[surf_moon_stars]

Hi to each of you,

Sorry, I hit send by mistake, and did not finish the bottom part, but I fixed it.
How embarassing, my apology

I am new here to websleuths.com, and found this site when I went online right after the first day the frontpage news that Shasta was found alive (it said Dylan was alive as well, god bless him).

Since I came here I can say that I am so glad I did, as I had no idea there was a community dedicated to helping, supporting and locating and keeping the memory alive of so many wonderful people who are no longer with us.

I hope to be able to help in any way I can.
I had to edit to say help, as in locate any information and upates etc, just to clarify. Don't want to step on toes with wrong wording. :D

YES, I completely agree with what has been discussed about the checks being written to Duncan for these charges.

"Acquaintances" versus saying a friend of mine is bizarre, and the fact that the checks that were provided to help him were written by a banker and a pediatrician??? Again....pediatrician????? :confused:

Isn't there something wrong with that sentence??? I am not quite understanding that one at all, and YES, it sounds like I am reading this
correctly, is that both men KNEW that these checks were being written
for prior child molestation charges :doh:

The last part about the kiddy stuff (so sad ) is so heartwrenching for me to think about, and I hope that personal lifestyles of the "other people" mentioned is or hopefully checked out...as per the very first line in this paragraph.

I am just so sad the trail of this guy is starting as far back as being released in the first place like nothing ever happened at all, he is free to go, and then expected to be "responsible enough" to register as a sex offender and appear in court on other or more charges. :mad:

The GPS anklet and Pink Pedo plates is a great start and best way to stop giving people who do this the ability to "disappear" or become "invisible" after they have been caught for this unspeakable act.

The one thing that sits with me daily is that once these offenders get out, how come there is noone keeping track of them on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.....this should be thought about being done in the sytem...just a thought .


Thank you for listening

[Dara]

In the In Forum article a picture comes up... check the link that SeaHag posted again. It's so weird. That photo still doesn't come up for me. But thanks to Incognito, I have now seen him.

[WhiteWolf]

Pedophilia may not be the only thing that could possibly link Crary, Wacksman, and Duncan. Maybe there is a homosexual attraction between them? If Wacksman and Crary are closet homosexuals, maybe they figured it was in their best interest to give Duncan the money.

[Cowgirl]

Pedophilia may not be the only thing that could possibly link Crary, Wacksman, and Duncan. Maybe there is a homosexual attraction between them? If Wacksman and Crary are closet homosexuals, maybe they figured it was in their best interest to give Duncan the money.I kind of got a gaydar read on the doctor, but Crary looks more the pedophile to me. I have noticed that many of the pedophiles have that same big soft baby look to them--doughy, if you will. I hate that I am judging people by looks, but Duncan does not fit my usual expectation. But then, it is not a one-size-fits-all perversion, is it? Why do so many of them have weak chins? The doctor's full front pic does not show it but that other pic--at least, the one others suspect is the doctor--has a very weak chin. Then again, the good doctor may be getting plastic surgery lessons and augmentations! Plastic surgery, one of the most lucrative areas in medicine these days, does not even require a specialty... since it is usually non-invasive, almost any doctor can do it and many go to a few seminars and boom, their practice changes from dermatology to cosmetology.

[surf_moon_stars]

This may have been discussed, sorry for the dupliacte, but Duncan was such a computer kind of guy, with blogging, making the "videos" that left me feeling :mad: when I saw that.

This guy has time to make videos, which by the way, take quite a bit of time to put together....the guy knows his stuff...so I would not be surprised if there is more about this guy out on the web that has not been located.

Was he making money in the computer industry at all if anyone knows???
Doing the kind of videos he did etc is something he could have sub-contracted himself out to do to make his own money, as the web seemed to be his whole life with blogging, etc....

Asking for money from people like that, on charges like that, seems like he was "close" enough to both of them to do so. :waitasec:

I am feeling the same way about the two others and their preferences, and definitely think you are on to something there.... :twocents:

I will go read back and see what I can locate about that, but if anyone can help me on that quetsion, thanks.

[WhiteWolf]

This may have been discussed, sorry for the dupliacte, but Duncan was such a computer kind of guy, with blogging, making the "videos" that left me feeling :mad: when I saw that.

This guy has time to make videos, which by the way, take quite a bit of time to put together....the guy knows his stuff...so I would not be surprised if there is more about this guy out on the web that has not been located.


Duncan also had a lot of photographic equiptment some of which was seized in a previous search of his house after he was arrested for the 2004 offence in Minnesota. If I remember correctly, Duncan lured the two boys by asking them if he could take their picture then he fondled one of the boys.

I would be totally suprised if Duncan doesn't have a stash of photos and videos hidden. I hope LE questioned Shasta about Duncan taking any pictures while her and Dylan were with him for all those weeks.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm of the opinion that these guys are more networked than we want to believe. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out they've got some sort of "get out of jail" fund and help each other out with that fund.

[jblfelines]

Here's some info (http://www.crary.ca/comphistory.asp) about Crary's company.

Hmmm, that Fargo-Cass County Economic Development Corp that Crary was a board member of was once investigated (http://www.eidebailly.com/forensic/articles/2001_2002/article8_24_2001.htm) for possible excessive expenditures.

I'm multi-tasking and doing some hit or miss Googling so this all might not add anything helpful. But just in case, I thought I'd post what I stumbled on.

Looks like he had a nice business so maybe he figured this was a "business expense". Maybe "entertainment" expense. Something is not right for sure.

[surf_moon_stars]

Hi Whitewolf,

I was thinking the same thing, and I have to ask , as I am trying to read as much as I can to catch up on his BG so I am up to date on everything:

Did they mention Duncan having a laptop, wireless , cell phone or anything in his posession or in the jeep or campground when he was arrested??

He was at campgrounds, which again, the whole geocaching (sp?)adventures he does, which is what he could have been part of or doing at the time he was out with Shasta and Dylan (which would be horrible if he was).

I could see a satellite notebook being used to keep up under a different screen name and to have other possible info/blogs where he was logging his most recent activity, and had it hidden or place somewhere at a campsite, or anywhere he was last seen.

I find it hard to believe that this guy just decided to go "on the run" after he took Shasta and Dylan, I think this guy actually thought he was not going to get caught....:mad: due to bragging about not beging caught "again and again".

He could have had some places or friends to stay with along the way , who may be afraid to come forward, as he was a 'get around the states" kind of guy for doing so much time in jail.

I was wondering if he would possibly check in on his laptop from time to time under another "alias" and/or screen name because he was out of site long enough.

I feel he could not be without typing or writing down his thoughts on paper,or on his blog as it seems he did it often enough before this. Computer people always are online.

As mentioned, in one of my other threads, people who are always on the computer can't always seem to "stay away" from it too long, as it is their
home away from home, if you know what I mean.

I will say it, as I know it has been said already, but the fact that NOONE reporting this who posted in his comments area of the blog before the Groene tragedy makes me sooooo mad.

If I was someone who "stumbled" across his website by acciddent, I would have reported it to authorities PRONTO.

Edited to say: when I said he may have had friends to stay with along the way who may be afraid to come forward is becuase the guy may know people even his family did not know when he was in jail for all those years....making acquaintances with people who may have been in jail on the same charges or similar who can not stop doing what they are doing after they got out...such as this particular man.

Just my thought, as he could have "acquaintances and connections" of the worst kind that noone knew he had between all the states he drove through.


Thanks for listening

[WhiteWolf]

LE hasn't released any information about what was found in Duncan's vehicles so I have no idea if he had a laptop or photo equiptment with him when he was captured.

[Incognito]

There is a Jack (John) Crary who is a Dr that may be related. Chances are Wacksman would know him

http://www.ndbomex.com/SearchResults.asp?Ctl=245054379409.178

[aheddle]

Looks like he had a nice business so maybe he figured this was a "business expense". Maybe "entertainment" expense. Something is not right for sure.

He probably had a line of credit at his bank or on a credit card that he used.

[i.b.nora]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website,

The opinions being expressed, especially on this thread, remind me of a witch hunt.

[Cowgirl]

This may have been discussed, sorry for the dupliacte, but Duncan was such a computer kind of guy, with blogging, making the "videos" that left me feeling :mad: when I saw that.

This guy has time to make videos, which by the way, take quite a bit of time to put together....the guy knows his stuff...so I would not be surprised if there is more about this guy out on the web that has not been located.

Was he making money in the computer industry at all if anyone knows???
Doing the kind of videos he did etc is something he could have sub-contracted himself out to do to make his own money, as the web seemed to be his whole life with blogging, etc....

Asking for money from people like that, on charges like that, seems like he was "close" enough to both of them to do so. :waitasec:

I am feeling the same way about the two others and their preferences, and definitely think you are on to something there.... :twocents:

I will go read back and see what I can locate about that, but if anyone can help me on that quetsion, thanks.He was definitely computer savvy, Surf. He was taking techie courses at school and was about to graduate before a meltdown in March of this year (scheduled to graduate in May) and he was employed by Teleforce Inc as well as another company part time. His job at Teleforce involved troubleshooting web problems for clients from what he wrote in his blog. But his arrogance about his encryptions not being crackable shows he either had delusions or misconceptions about what others could do.

He was also into phone/computer/video gadgets because he described setting up his own home surveillance system with his computer and cameras and phone -- he would call and check out his cats and such. When he got busted he had a lot of camera and video equipment seized and his computer. I don't know if he got some of it back or bought another computer or what he did, but he was never without access to his blog for very long since he had access at work. However, his meltdown was swift and obvious starting in March. He stopped going to work, attending school, or even cleaning his house. I don't know if he was totally honest with his "friends" about his legal problems, but he himself knew he was going down for the count.

[Dara]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website, You mean the statement that we're discussing?

The one where he talks about Duncan as an "acquaintance?" An acquaintance that he forked over fifteen grand to, and helped him stay out of jail. We all know the result, don't we?

[Sofia]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website,
The opinions being expressed, especially on this thread, remind me of a witch hunt.If you know more, feel free to share it. I couldn't read the inforum site, myself.

I don't think it's a witch hunt. I am far more liberal than most people here, I do believe that there are molesters who can be successfully treated. I still think that posting bail for a molester on a repeat offense is suspicious. It makes me wonder what the person was getting in return.

[Sofia]

He was definitely computer savvy, Surf. He was taking techie courses at school and was about to graduate
I suspect that this is the service he was providing for his fellow pedophiles--something to do with computers. For instance that Al guy, he was busted because he didn't know enough about computers to avoid getting caught--he was caught because of email/internet stuff. (I can't recall the details).

[joanofarc]

Didn't Duncan, way back when he was 16, when he raped the 14 year old boy at gunpoint...also have a camera in his possession at that time...I thought I read that somewhere...hmmm I need to search some reports...if anyone knows right off, can you let me know....

P.S. I have visions of this creep JED aspiring to make a "snuff movie"....:eek: I think I watch too much t.v....LOL

[Shazzie]

If you know more, feel free to share it. I couldn't read the inforum site, myself.

I don't think it's a witch hunt. I am far more liberal than most people here, I do believe that there are molesters who can be successfully treated. I still think that posting bail for a molester on a repeat offense is suspicious. It makes me wonder what the person was getting in return.
I'm with you, on all of the above issues.

I would really like to know what i.b.nora thinks that statement is supposed to be telling us. I read it long before I came to i.b.nora's post, and it didn't tell me anything in particular that wasn't in the In Forum article.

[Dara]

I will be the first one to say this is probably nothing, but I did a doubletake when it came up. I Googled "TerraMarc" and "Duncan" and got this hit (http://www.casscountygov.com/departments/sheriff/cassoff.htm). It goes to a Cass County page of convicted sex offenders. Duncan is on that page, as is an offender who lists his employer as TerraMarc (and he lives out of state).

[joanofarc]

You mean the statement that we're discussing?

The one where he talks about Duncan as an "acquaintance?" An acquaintance that he forked over fifteen grand to, and helped him stay out of jail. We all know the result, don't we?He disappeared...on the run...right after he posted bail...."accomplice"...is the word that comes to my mind..

[Sofia]

http://www.crary.com/.

A division of TerraMarc industries

[Dara]

He disappeared...on the run...right after he posted bail...."accomplice"...is the word that comes to my mind...here....
It's sure possible and I don't think it's anything close to a witch hunt to speculate and consider a range of possibilities.

[Dara]

http://www.crary.com/.

A division of TerraMarc industries
Yep. As I've had time today, I've been Googling names and info from articles that have been posted.

Unfortunately, sex offenders are everywhere, so it could just be a coincidence. Could be that the sex offender was hired without anyone knowing his criminal history. But it could also be that Crary is sympathetic to sex offenders. His company employs one and he gave a hunk of money to another.

Just something to consider.

[Incognito]

We do know that at least one of the friends Duncan mentions in his blog is also a sex offender. Allan Barlow

http://ml.waspc.org/Search.aspx

[Sofia]

Yep. As I've had time today, I've been Googling names and info from articles that have been posted.

Unfortunately, sex offenders are everywhere, so it could just be a coincidence. Could be that the sex offender was hired without anyone knowing his criminal history. But it could also be that Crary is sympathetic to sex offenders. His company employs one and he gave a hunk of money to another.

Just something to consider.
Did JED ever work for Crary/Terramarc?

[joanofarc]

It's sure possible and I don't think it's anything close to a witch hunt to speculate and consider a range of possibilities.This is a CRIME sleuthing forum and is what we do here...some do not like it when we speculate...but how else would we get our ideas across....it is incredible what this group can unearth working together....I would bet L.E. would be grateful to have help from a crew like us....

However, that said, some things are something and others are nothing...as long as we don't point fingers, name names, and clarify our posts with "In my Opinion"...I can't see anything wrong with this type of speculation....

[chicoliving]

Yep we speculate and propose theories given what we know and sometimes a little extra thrown in :)

All opinions are welcome at WS that's what makes it so great!

Carry on!

[Cowgirl]

You mean the statement that we're discussing?

The one where he talks about Duncan as an "acquaintance?" An acquaintance that he forked over fifteen grand to, and helped him stay out of jail. We all know the result, don't we?Don't you lend that kind of dough to acquaintances you meet while riding your bike? What is wrong with you?

:laugh: My witch friends would be very upset. They don't commit crimes at all, much less against children. Pedophile hunt, maybe. Witches? Nope.

You know, this guy Crary said that this was the only statement he intended to make on the matter, so I guess nothing else would be forthcoming, but I would have to ask ANYONE WHO would front an ex-convict a lot of money, when he knew the guy is at least an ex-convict -- if he didn't know anything about why he was an ex-con, why didn't he? Wouldn't you want to know that before you possibly got even a bank robber out on bond?

Even just your run of the mill bank robber or drug addict -- would you not be afraid of this kind of outcome, just instinctively? Hard to believe that a doctor and successful businessman would be that dumb, isn't it? That naive? That is the part that makes me suspicious. It is too much money being handed over with too few questions, if it were really just a case of trying to give a guy a hand. I have lots of friends who have money. But I don't know more than two that I could ask for over a thousand dollars without explaining why extensively and... Oh, why bother? This stuff is obvious. Only a very good friend who knew intimate details of my entire life would lend me this kind of money. If others have that kind of money to throw around, fine. But I'm not buying.

[Dara]

Did JED ever work for Crary/Terramarc?
I don't know. I'd like to know.

I just went to the main page of In-Forum (http://www.in-forum.com/) and found a link to the entire text of the letter Crary sent. Previously, I'd only read those excerpts that were in various articles. Not much else there except that he spoke to JED 2-3 times after lending him the money but before he left the area. And he justifies his loan. Still WSers who haven't already read it might find the whole thing interesting and pick up nuances that may prove significant later. Or not.

[aheddle]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website,

The opinions being expressed, especially on this thread, remind me of a witch hunt.

I did read the statement. :innocent:

Fact finding and posting one's opinions is what we are here for.

A mere "acquaintance" IMO does not go about writing cheques for $15000.00. It is ridiculous that someone would do this for another unless there is far more to the "relationship" that is being admitted to.

This Duncan character has had two men that we know of come to his aid regarding money needed for legal expenditures. One he met in a coffee shop and the other on a bicycle path......and we are to believe that this Duncan guy is so darn wonderful upon meeting that people will do anything to help him?

Well I don't buy it. I believe there is far more to it especially with this last one who forked over 15 grand. Common sense dictates it. IMO

[Floh]

Did JED ever work for Crary/Terramarc?

I get to wondering how many sex offenders, Crary/Terramarc employs?

[Cowgirl]

Didn't Duncan, way back when he was 16, when he raped the 14 year old boy at gunpoint...also have a camera in his possession at that time...I thought I read that somewhere...hmmm I need to search some reports...if anyone knows right off, can you let me know....

P.S. I have visions of this creep JED aspiring to make a "snuff movie"....:eek: I think I watch too much t.v....LOLOh, Joan, you don't watch too much TV! Who would be more interested in a snuff movie than a sexual sadist?

He had guns, a lot of ammo, and a cigarette lighter. I don't remember anything about a camera back then though.

[dragonfly]

I was wondering if it were possible that they have some kinship through their common perversion and seek or feel obligated to help their brother pedophile in times of trouble? IMO

[joanofarc]

I don't know. I'd like to know.

I just went to the main page of In-Forum (http://www.in-forum.com/) and found a link to the entire text of the letter Crary sent. Previously, I'd only read those excerpts that were in various articles. Not much else there except that he spoke to JED 2-3 times after lending him the money but before he left the area. And he justifies his loan. Still WSers who haven't already read it might find the whole thing interesting and pick up nuances that may prove significant later. Or not.
Thanks for this Dara...funny how he "borrowed" him the $15,000 instead of lent him....sorry, I'm a stickler for grammatical errors....LOL

[cecilia]

This is absurd, I know in az (can't believe that other areas don't also practice), bail has to be in the form of a credit card, cash, or money order..... I know this to be the case locally -- It has to be a secured source.

Something just doen't make sense -- Becker County? I'll have to check that out where the physical location of the bail and post what I found -- but that sounds way off....

Agreed - every criminal in the country would be happy to pull out a check book - no way -

[dragonfly]

The other thing that comes to mind is maybe Crary went in debt or borrowed the money and then lent it to Duncan.

[joanofarc]

I was wondering if it were possible that they have some kinship through their common perversion and seek or feel obligated to help their brother pedophile in times of trouble? IMOAbsolutely!!

There was a thread in one of the forums, perhaps in the jury room...not sure where now, where a guy in the U.K. has a website dedicated to Pedophilia....this guy describes life as a pedophile as being grossly misunderstood.

He claims that all pedophiles want to do is to adore & teach children....whatever comes along during that vein is not molestation, in their opinion....sick, sick, stuff....

[joanofarc]

The other thing that comes to mind is maybe Crary went in debt or borrowed the money and then lent it to Duncan.
Good observation...perhaps a little Freudian slip

[Floh]

I don't know. I'd like to know.

I just went to the main page of In-Forum (http://www.in-forum.com/) and found a link to the entire text of the letter Crary sent. Previously, I'd only read those excerpts that were in various articles. Not much else there except that he spoke to JED 2-3 times after lending him the money but before he left the area. And he justifies his loan. Still WSers who haven't already read it might find the whole thing interesting and pick up nuances that may prove significant later. Or not.

Thank you. i've now read the whole statement (pdf).

o/t question: is it a regular thing to say, "i borrowed him" rather than, "lent him"? i ask because in British English it would be the latter.

thanks.

[SeaHag]

The other thing that comes to mind is maybe Crary went in debt or borrowed the money and then lent it to Duncan.
Maybe, but I think it's more likely just poor language usage, similar to the way some people say (incorrectly!) things like "my mom learned me how to sew".

[Shazzie]

Did JED ever work for Crary/Terramarc?
I've been wondering about that, too. I keep hearing JED had two jobs while he was going to NDSU, but I can't recall any mention of WHERE or FOR WHOM he worked.

Terramarc seems to have many divisions:

"TerraMarc currently owns Lockwood Manufacturing (West Fargo, ND), Crary Company (West Fargo, ND), Harriston Industries (Minto, ND) and Mayo Manufacturing (East Grand Forks, MN). TerraMarc Industries also owns five retail farm equipment stores specializing in potato equipment - North Valley Equipment (Grafton, ND), TerraMarc of Wisconsin (Plover, WI), Lockwood (Paul, ID), Lockwood (Rexburg, ID), and Lockwood (Presque Isle, ME)."

http://www.terramarc.com/

[Jeana (DP)]

Thank you. i've now read the whole statement (pdf).

o/t question: is it a regular thing to say, "i borrowed him" rather than, "lent him"? i ask because in British English it would be the latter.

thanks.


In this case, since he was probably never going to repay it, does the wording still matter? Just askin ;) ;) ;) ;)

[i.b.nora]

We do know that at least one of the friends Duncan mentions in his blog is also a sex offender. Allan Barlow

http://ml.waspc.org/Search.aspx

No, we don't know that the "Big Al" mentioned by Duncan is Alan Barlow the sex offender. We don't know that. Someone speculated that.

And, if Duncan is to be believed that "Big Al" was over 50 years old in January of 2005 and had been locked up since the age of 17, then "Big Al" couldn't possibly be Alan Barlow the sex offender. According to Duncan, "Big Al" was arrested for the violent assault and rape of a woman during a drug robbery in 1971.

"Big Al" was still in prison when Alan Barlow the sex offender was convicted and sentenced to six years in 1995.

I suppose it is possible that the Alan Barlow who signed Duncan's guestbook could be Alan Barlow the sex offender.

[joanofarc]

Oh, Joan, you don't watch too much TV! Who would be more interested in a snuff movie than a sexual sadist?

He had guns, a lot of ammo, and a cigarette lighter. I don't remember anything about a camera back then though.Thanks cowgirl...I do happen to have an overactive imagination though...:)

I was wrong about Duncan having a camera during his first offense but he had one with him when he committed this offense...anyone see a pattern here with pedophilia, cameras and the internet??

http://www.ndsuspectrum.com/news/n-0405-ndsustudent.htm

Joseph Edward Duncan III, 42, was charged with second-degree criminal sexual conduct and attempted criminal sexual conduct. The criminal complaint accuses Duncan of approaching a 7-year-old boy and his 9-year-old friend with a video camera on July 3 at a middle school playground.

[Shazzie]

Thank you. i've now read the whole statement (pdf).

o/t question: is it a regular thing to say, "i borrowed him" rather than, "lent him"? i ask because in British English it would be the latter.

thanks.
It's definitely not standard American English, Floh. It could be a "regionalism" that is peculiar to that part of the country, I guess, but it's not an expression I've ever heard anyone use.

[Shazzie]

In this case, since he was probably never going to repay it, does the wording still matter? Just askin ;) ;) ;) ;)
Nope. It's just an odd turn of phrase that struck some of us as a curiosity, IMO. ;)

[Floh]

Thanks for this Dara...funny how he "borrowed" him the $15,000 instead of lent him....sorry, I'm a stickler for grammatical errors....LOL

THANK YOU Joan!

i'm not a stickler for grammatical errors while posting, or others posting (i simply wouldn't have the face to be after the blunders i've made, and you all know what it's like when you've just got to post there and then and to heck with the perfection!), but this was a formal letter, for goodness sake! you'd think the man would have made sure something representing him was correct. please disregard my more recent post asking this question. i was simply wondering if it was an american expression -- such as 'out the window', rather than, 'out of the window' -- and had become common and absolutely correct phrasing. i'm a great believer american english is just as correct as british english, btw, and i teach that as so in english classes. neither is more correct, it just is -- unless it isn't! isn't that big of me! :dance:

[Floh]

Absolutely!!

There was a thread in one of the forums, perhaps in the jury room...not sure where now, where a guy in the U.K. has a website dedicated to Pedophilia....this guy describes life as a pedophile as being grossly misunderstood.

He claims that all pedophiles want to do is to adore & teach children....whatever comes along during that vein is not molestation, in their opinion....sick, sick, stuff....

Are you speaking of that 'George' thing? :sick smilie urgently needed:

[Shazzie]

Are you speaking of that 'George' thing? :sick smilie urgently needed:How about this one, Floh?

:sick:

Will that do? ;)

[joanofarc]

Are you speaking of that 'George' thing? :sick smilie urgently needed:
Sorry...don't get you....:waitasec: ...could of missed something on the forum though...:p

[Floh]

In this case, since he was probably never going to repay it, does the wording still matter? Just askin ;) ;) ;) ;)

To an extent, yes, i believe so. because i would imagine he should have thought long and hard about how to word the 'only statement he intends (intended?) to make' (paraphrased) and it suggests to me he is not an educated man. just trying to get a handle on the kind of person he is. maybe he was in awe of Duncan's education? such as Duncan's education is? so then he might afford Duncan with 'respect'?

[joanofarc]

THANK YOU Joan!

i'm not a stickler for grammatical errors while posting, or others posting (i simply wouldn't have the face to be after the blunders i've made, and you all know what it's like when you've just got to post there and then and to heck with the perfection!), but this was a formal letter, for goodness sake! you'd think the man would have made sure something representing him was correct. please disregard my more recent post asking this question. i was simply wondering if it was an american expression -- such as 'out the window', rather than, 'out of the window' -- and had become common and absolutely correct phrasing. i'm a great believer american english is just as correct as british english, btw, and i teach that as so in english classes. neither is more correct, it just is -- unless it isn't! isn't that big of me! :dance:You are right...I should explain.....I don't care about errors on a forum either when you are quickly posting a reply....but in a formal letter (especially to the press)...it is "unforgivable"...IMO

Sometimes an error like this means that someone was not paying attention in English class, or English is not their first language, or they were meaning to say one thing and said the other....reams of possibilites here....

Anyone seen the movie FARGO.....LOL...definate "language" distinction there....sorry, but I live in Canada and I akin that movie to Americans trying to talk like Canadians...... eh!!!

[Jeana (DP)]

To an extent, yes, i believe so. because i would imagine he should have thought long and hard about how to word the 'only statement he intends (intended?) to make' (paraphrased) and it suggests to me he is not an educated man. just trying to get a handle on the kind of person he is. maybe he was in awe of Duncan's education? such as Duncan's education is? so then he might afford Duncan with 'respect'?


You're probably right, but I'll go out on a limb and say since the was in trouble with the law since at least the age of 16 and was a futitive trying to escape justice for years anyway and Duncan could blop down $15K for bail money, he probably held out some sort of "respect" for Duncan.

However, I was just messing around. I certainly want everyone to discuss anything that interests them about this case. :) :) :)

[Floh]

Sorry...don't get you....:waitasec: ...could of missed something on the forum though...:p

Terry George, Joan. he has been a supposrter of Michael Jackson and claimed to have engaged in telephone sex with Jackson. i didn't read that much of his website -- but enough. truly enough.

urgh!

as for the sick smilie, Shazzie: not quite the strength of sickness i feel is warrented. :(

[Floh]

However, I was just messing around. I certainly want everyone to discuss anything that interests them about this case. :) :) :)

I knew that! :blowkiss:

time for bed on this continent. back tomorrow to get even greater insight from super sleuthers here. thank you everyone! :blowkiss:

[joanofarc]

Terry George, Joan. he has been a supposrter of Michael Jackson and claimed to have engaged in telephone sex with Jackson. i didn't read that much of his website -- but enough. truely enough.

urgh!

as for the sick smilie, Shazzie: not quite the strength of sickness i feel is warrented. :(
Oh, gotcha now...:doh: . I didn't follow MJ trial...that is probably why....for some reason that one didn't interest me...guess I knew he was going to get off and it was a lost cause...

[Incognito]

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Barlow1.html

[BillyGoatGruff]

http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/6528/craryjoe1rr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us/)

Joe Crary

http://www.kvlytv11.com/ (http://www.kvlytv11.com/)
This guy certainly doesn't look like a cycling afficiando, which is how he explained knowing Duncan--they're both into bicycling. (Maybe sniffing the seats would be more accurate.) He looks more like a "bear" than someone into outdoor exercise.

[BillyGoatGruff]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website,

The opinions being expressed, especially on this thread, remind me of a witch hunt.
"Witch Hunt" is the buzz work pedos and their apologists use whenever people start being suspicious of their behavior.
Witches, warlocks and werwolves don't exist.
Pedophiles, sexual predators and child molesters do.

[Shazzie]

"Witch Hunt" is the buzz work pedos and their apologists use whenever people start being suspicious of their behavior.
Witches, warlocks and werwolves don't exist.
Pedophiles, sexual predators and child molesters do.
Witches exist. I know some :)

You're right about the rest. Especially the pedo buzzword part. I think all of us who followed the MJ trial have heard that one before, right, gang? :p

[Cowgirl]

Witches exist. I know some :)

You're right about the rest. Especially the pedo buzzword part. I think all of us who followed the MJ trial have heard that one before, right, gang? :pI know some very nice witches, both in Harry Potter and in real life. I never mistook any of them for pedophiles. And not a single witch ever asked me "What's wrong with sharing your bee-e-e-e-d?"

[BillyGoatGruff]

I don't know. I'd like to know.

I just went to the main page of In-Forum (http://www.in-forum.com/) and found a link to the entire text of the letter Crary sent. Previously, I'd only read those excerpts that were in various articles. Not much else there except that he spoke to JED 2-3 times after lending him the money but before he left the area. And he justifies his loan. Still WSers who haven't already read it might find the whole thing interesting and pick up nuances that may prove significant later. Or not.This guy has lawyered up.
And it doesn't explain why he would give 15K to this man, who he apparently met on a nature bike trail. Like I said--this guy's pic does not leave me with teh impression of an outdoorsy type fellow.
Something stinks.
I'm betting all of Duncan's pedo pals are cursing his name right now, cause he has put each and everyone of them on the radar in big, big way.

[Cowgirl]

read Crary's statement, available at that InForum website,

The opinions being expressed, especially on this thread, remind me of a witch hunt.Oh, I get it now. He said he wasn't guilty of the charges! Oh that explains it now. Nevermind, it was the right thing to do. I mean, I certainly would hand over thousands of dollars to some guy I was only acquainted with recently just as long as he said he wasn't guilty... you will have to forgive me, I didn't see that part the first time.

I wonder if all criminals admit their guilt?

[Shazzie]

I know some very nice witches, both in Harry Potter and in real life. I never mistook any of them for pedophiles. And not a single witch ever asked me "What's wrong with sharing your bee-e-e-e-d?"
Ain't it the truth, Cowgirl! :p

[Shazzie]

Oh, I get it now. He said he wasn't guilty of the charges! Oh that explains it now. Nevermind, it was the right thing to do. I mean, I certainly would hand over thousands of dollars to some guy I was only acquainted with recently just as long as he said he wasn't guilty... you will have to forgive me, I didn't see that part the first time.

I wonder if all criminals admit their guilt?
Oh, NOW I get it! We're all supposed to believe that Crary really believed JED was innocent of those charges and only helped him because of that! I see that now. Too bad I don't believe it for one minute! Heeeee.

[BillyGoatGruff]

Witches exist. I know some :)

You're right about the rest. Especially the pedo buzzword part. I think all of us who followed the MJ trial have heard that one before, right, gang? :p
Unless they can disappear into a puff of smoke or fly on broomsticks, they're just mystics/practicioners. It's like people who tell me they're vampires because they've had fangs bonded to their teeth, wear weird contat lenses and drink blood. So I ask them--
"If I shot you in the heart--would you die?"
"Yes."
"Would you then get up and walk around?"
"No."
"Then you're not a vampire."

BTW, I've had numerous friends who were practicing satanists, wiccans, and
voodoo mambas. As far as I can tell, it's all about as valid/real as snake handling.

[Shazzie]

Unless they can disappear into a puff of smoke or fly on broomsticks, they're just mystics/practicioners. It's like people who tell me they're vampires because they've had fangs bonded to their teeth, wear weird contat lenses and drink blood. So I ask them--
"If I shot you in the heart--would you die?"
"Yes."
"Would you then get up and walk around?"
"No."
"Then you're not a vampire."

BTW, I've had numerous friends who were practicing satanists, wiccans, and
voodoo mambas. As far as I can tell, it's all about as valid/real as snake handling.
Matter of definition.

"Witch" may mean a supernatural being who flies on a broomstick to some. To others, it has a different definition. :)

[Incognito]

On one of these threads someone wondered who Duncan had for an attorney in Becker County. I can't find it right now so I'll put the link here.

http://www.dl-online.com/fullstory.php?id=15781&FCID=233661&FCN=so%20what

The amount was less than the $25,000 bail sought by Becker County Assistant Attorney Mike Fritz, but more than the $10,000 bail asked for by Duncan’s attorney, Dennis Fisher of Moorhead.


Fisher, who was later allowed to withdraw from the case because Duncan’s $10,000 check for legal services bounced, pointed out that this was Duncan’s first alleged violation since his release from prison in 2000 after serving approximately 18 years for raping a 14-year-old boy at gunpoint in Washington state.

[Shelayne]

Acquaintance, my butt! :razz:

Noone hands someone $1000 that they are "acquainted" with, let alone $15,000. Puhlease. Who is this guy trying to fool?

This smells a LOT worse than Lutefisk.

[Sofia]

This guy has lawyered up.
And it doesn't explain why he would give 15K to this man, who he apparently met on a nature bike trail. Like I said--this guy's pic does not leave me with teh impression of an outdoorsy type fellow.
Something stinks.
I'm betting all of Duncan's pedo pals are cursing his name right now, cause he has put each and everyone of them on the radar in big, big way.
"Crary said he was trying to help Duncan, as he has helped others."

I wonder who the "others" are? More sex offenders?:sick:

[Sofia]

Oh, NOW I get it! We're all supposed to believe that Crary really believed JED was innocent of those charges and only helped him because of that! I see that now. Too bad I don't believe it for one minute! Heeeee.
I agree Shaz. Someone trying to turn their life around doesn't get arrested for molestation.

[Txmom]

Sometimes I wonder why people do what they do. Apparently at the time of the money "exchange" no thought that they would ever be found out. I know some people with serious money, and I would never, ever ask them for any of it. Much less $15,000. Im not even sure if I would scrounge it up for my own child. My father always said, if you find your way in jail, you can find your way out. Same thing I told my kids.

There is much more going on here then we have been told. I agree about the pedo rings and I do believe that they help each other out. And what about this Dr.??? Why jeopardize your career and family for this -----I hate to refer to Duncan even as a person. Did he get a degree from an honest to goodness medical school???

Im wondering if the Dr. is now realizing that he and his family could have been the ones killed, and his children raped by his "innocent friend".

[Nchadwickaz]

:laugh:This smells a LOT worse than Lutefisk.
Lutefisk -- whoa I just got a flash back of my Norweigen relatives and that God awful Lutefisk!!!! Thank you... Have not thought about my grandmother and her sisters in awhile and brought back memories -- 'off da (not sure if that is spelled right) lol

[Shelayne]

:laugh:
Lutefisk -- whoa I just got a flash back of my Norweigen relatives and that God awful Lutefisk!!!! Thank you... Have not thought about my grandmother and her sisters in awhile and brought back memories -- 'off da (not sure if that is spelled right) lol

You are welcome. ;)

Yes, you don't even want to be in the same room as that stuff! Nasty! I'm not sure how to spell it, either; we don't use that expression in my house, though a good friend of mine says it sometimes. And she is Norwegian as well. :D

[newtv]

Acquaintance, my butt! :razz:

Noone hands someone $1000 that they are "acquainted" with, let alone $15,000. Puhlease. Who is this guy trying to fool?

This smells a LOT worse than Lutefisk.
ya know this doesnt seem accurate-he only needed 1500.00 to get bail-it was 10 percent and thats all they have to put down..so maybe he was loaned the 1500.00
Further-if this is a ring -one thing I notice is male pedophiles often have money..might be the whole gender thing but men tend to have more money and especially if they are not married.

[smlltwngrl]

I agree Shaz. Someone trying to turn their life around doesn't get arrested for molestation.
Once a molestor, always a molestor! Nothing short of castration will cure them and that's not even proven. Can't prove it's effectiveness because not enough of the bastards will agree to have it done. I say don't give 'em a choice. They weren't too chicken to take away a child's innocense or in some cases, the child's life! Once they start acting out, each act has to be more perverse than the last one to satisy them. About 12 years ago in IL, not very long after a man was let out of prison for having raped and killed a 5 year old, he kidnapped and killed a 9 year old boy. Not only killed, but cut out his genitals too! But hey, the prison system thought he was turning his life around because he was only like 16 when he committed the first crime, and the boy's mom thinking the same thing let him babysit her son! Wake up peoples!!!:doh:

[smlltwngrl]

:laugh:
'off da (not sure if that is spelled right) lol
It's "Uff Da" meaning the same as "Oy-Vay", Ai-Yi-Yi" or "Oops!" You can find shirts and other items with this saying through a catalog called what on earth.

[Cowgirl]

ya know this doesnt seem accurate-he only needed 1500.00 to get bail-it was 10 percent and thats all they have to put down..so maybe he was loaned the 1500.00
Further-if this is a ring -one thing I notice is male pedophiles often have money..might be the whole gender thing but men tend to have more money and especially if they are not married.He did NOT use a bondsman. He posted the entire bond. He knew, better than the judge, that no bondsman would take a chance on him without severely restricting his movements.

A bondsman wants property -- someone's deed -- and this guy lived in another state. He did not own a home. He knew he would sit in jail trying to get all that negotiated, and that is what happens to most perps. This article explains how his pal Joe Crary wrote a check for $15,000 to cover the check Duncan had already given the court for bond:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=97434&section=news

I hope Joe Crary never has another good night's sleep.

[Dara]

I agree Shaz. Someone trying to turn their life around doesn't get arrested for molestation.
The more I read about this monster, the more disturbing it is. I just read this:

During that time, he smoked marijuana, handled a gun in violation of his parole, became sexually involved with his male community sponsor and had a relationship with a married woman who was "helping him explore his feminine side by helping him with transsexual fantasies." That woman had two young children with whom Duncan apparently was left alone, in violation of the conditions of his parole, according to the documents.

But it wasn't until Duncan absconded in 1997 while facing allegations of drug use and the incidents with the children that he was sent back to prison to serve the remaining three years of his sentence. While in prison, he repeatedly refused to participate in sex-offender treatment. In 2000, the DOC was forced to let him go and he moved to North Dakota.

So, it's pretty scary that he was left alone with two young children. But I bolded "the incidents with the children" because I'm curious if that means simply that he was alone with them, which was a violation of his parole, or if there is more to it (that LE knows about; it's possible he did something to these children and got away with it).


That article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002377356_duncan13m.html) also quotes his mother as saying he has called her since his arrest and expressed remorse.

[Cowgirl]

The more I read about this monster, the more disturbing it is. I just read this:


So, it's pretty scary that he was left alone with two young children. But I bolded "the incidents with the children" because I'm curious if that means simply that he was alone with them, which was a violation of his parole, or if there is more to it (that LE knows about; it's possible he did something to these children and got away with it).


That article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002377356_duncan13m.html) also quotes his mother as saying he has called her since his arrest and expressed remorse.What is pretty scary is that there are women out there willing to risk their own kids' well being by leaving them alone with such a monster. I also wonder who the "community sponsor" was and if he may have been a member of the same club as Wacksman and Crary who are enablers if nothing else. I hope all of them are ashamed of themselves and that they all receive the public scorn they so richly deserve. While others want to bash lawyers and judges, I take exception to the enablers more than those trying to do their jobs. Wacksman wanted to allow this monster around his own kids! I wonder what the children of these people think?

While I try to put myself in his poor mother's place, there comes a time when I would have to cut my child loose, I am afraid. I had a strange reaction while trying to imagine her position. I found myself looking down at the actual "site of birth" on my own body and I think I would be wondering what is wrong with me that I could have created such a monster. Until you have a child, that may seem stranger than if you have one, but that was my somewhat unexpected reaction to trying to imagine what Lillian Duncan is going through. Imagine the siblings and their horror and shame over this. I think I would have to cut him loose. He does not deserve family or anyone else supporting him. He expressed remorse. What good is that? Sheesh. Remorse for not killing Shasta too is what he means. If he had, he would still be out there looking for his next victims.

And speaking of those forced to do their jobs, imagine what it must be like for the jail employees forced to deal with him every day. I know they have to harden themselves just to do such a job, but they don't run into this kind of monster every day. I would have all I could do not to throw battery acid in his face. Or somewhere else, actually.

[Dara]

Cowgirl, I'm very interested in anyone who helped Duncan in any way. So far, Wacksman and Crary showed what seems to me an extraordinary level of support for a person that they didn't know very long or very well. My hinkymeter is shrieking.

I'm multi-tasking, but I'm going to keep checking the news every so often. I bet more and more information is going to come out about not only Duncan but also his support system.

[Floh]

I will be aghast to see any of his family supporting him -- they say one should have unconditional love for one's children, but there are limits.

i also doubt very much his siblings will speak up for him at all.

[Cowgirl]

Cowgirl, I'm very interested in anyone who helped Duncan in any way. So far, Wacksman and Crary showed what seems to me an extraordinary level of support for a person that they didn't know very long or very well. My hinkymeter is shrieking.

I'm multi-tasking, but I'm going to keep checking the news every so often. I bet more and more information is going to come out about not only Duncan but also his support system.Dara,

Keep a third eye out for Bill O'Reilly. I can't stand him but last night I caught him while channel surfing. He was talking about the judge who set the bond but then went right on to Crary and said that his staff is looking into him and why he would be helping this monster and he will report what they find out.

[Dara]

Dara,

Keep a third eye out for Bill O'Reilly. I can't stand him but last night I caught him while channel surfing. He was talking about the judge who set the bond but then went right on to Crary and said that his staff is looking into him and why he would be helping this monster and he will report what they find out.
Ooh, thanks for the heads up. During the MJ trial, I posted that I accidentally listened to O'Reilly on the radio and before I knew it was him, was impressed with his insights. He has his own TV show, yes? Is it named after him? I know this, but can't remember at the moment...distractions abound!

[Cowgirl]

Ooh, thanks for the heads up. During the MJ trial, I posted that I accidentally listened to O'Reilly on the radio and before I knew it was him, was impressed with his insights. He has his own TV show, yes? Is it named after him? I know this, but can't remember at the moment...distractions abound!Yes, he has a nightly show on FoxNews (cable) and it comes on at 8:00pm your time and is repeated again at 11:00 EDT. I usually watch Nancy Grace at the early time but I will try to keep an eye out for O'Reilly and see what he comes up with on one of his broadcasts. I have to watch Jon Stewart at 11, so...heee! Gotta have a comic break from this tragedy.

[Nchadwickaz]

Yes, he has a nightly show on FoxNews (cable) and it comes on at 8:00pm your time and is repeated again at 11:00 EDT. I usually watch Nancy Grace at the early time but I will try to keep an eye out for O'Reilly and see what he comes up with on one of his broadcasts. I have to watch Jon Stewart at 11, so...heee! Gotta have a comic break from this tragedy.OMG -- We have the same schedule -- but I do fit some Hannity in there also -- but have to have the Jon Stewart. I have watched O'Rielly for sometime and although he does get pretty preachy/arrogent. I have to say that as far as this sex offender issue goes he has been on it and has not let it die. I noticed this from the Carlie Brusia (sorry spelling?) case when he held the judges feet to the fire in that one, along with the Lundsford case he has constantly spoke and pushed for the 3 people living in the trailor to be charged and I believe broke the news due to his relentless questioning of the county attorney in florida, regarding the botched confess (couey).

He is un-nerving at times, but I like that he is such an advacate when it comes to the safety of our kids.

Wow, feel like I just did an infomercial for O'Rielly also here (http://www.billoreilly.com/) is is website..

[Dara]

I definitely want to catch O'Reilly. I was just reading again about Wacksman, because of the April 05 visit. I'll bet Duncan stayed in his home. Wacksman is either lethally stupid and/or a pedophile, imo. Get this (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=Idaho%20Duncan%20Doctor):

Don Nicholas, whose oldest son was a friend of one of Wacksman's children, said a neighborhood meeting was held to discuss Wacksman's friendship with a registered sex offender.

Nicholas, who now lives in Virginia, told The Forum he did not attend the meeting, but he said neighbors confronted Wacksman, and Wacksman told them he would allow Duncan to visit only when supervised.

Wacksman told his neighbors that Duncan was a changed man, Nicholas said. "Obviously, he wasn't," Nicholas said. There is no way a pediatrician could be ignorant of recidivism stats on sex offenders. They don't change. And he had to know that. Getting a job and going to college isn't going to suddenly make a child molester or rapist or sadist have completely differrent desires and fantasies. I won't post a whole long discourse on all I learned about pedophiles during the MJ trial because this group is well-informed, but if I know sex offenders often reoffend and that criminals often lie about their guilt and on and on, Wacksman did, too.

I hope if Duncan did stay with the oh-so-trusting doctor, the Wacksman children slept with their doors locked and were never, ever alone with this monster. Their father sure was willing to take a huge chance with their safety. I'm glad LE at least kept Duncan out of that house full-time.

Oops, got to edit. I believe Duncan blogged that he actually met Wacksman in Ft Lauderdale and not at his home when he "visited" him. Even if true, it doesn't change much. He still told his neighbors he'd let Duncan visit but not unsupervised. (There isn't a big enough eyeroll icon for that).

[Cowgirl]

I definitely want to catch O'Reilly. I was just reading again about Wacksman, because of the April 05 visit. I'll bet Duncan stayed in his home. Wacksman is either lethally stupid and/or a pedophile, imo. Get this (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=Idaho%20Duncan%20Doctor):
There is no way a pediatrician could be ignorant of recidivism stats on sex offenders. They don't change. And he had to know that. Getting a job and going to college isn't going to suddenly make a child molester or rapist or sadist have completely differrent desires and fantasies. I won't post a whole long discourse on all I learned about pedophiles during the MJ trial because this group is well-informed, but if I know sex offenders often reoffend and that criminals often lie about their guilt and on and on, Wacksman did, too.

I hope if Duncan did stay with the oh-so-trusting doctor, the Wacksman children slept with their doors locked and were never, ever alone with this monster. Their father sure was willing to take a huge chance with their safety. I'm glad LE at least kept Duncan out of that house full-time.

Oops, got to edit. I believe Duncan blogged that he actually met Wacksman in Ft Lauderdale and not at his home when he "visited" him. Even if true, it doesn't change much. He still told his neighbors he'd let Duncan visit but not unsupervised. (There isn't a big enough eyeroll icon for that).I agree. Can you even imagine a pediatrician with a practice dependent on children having any motivation of any kind to try to defend this guy in a public way? It makes no sense at all and he had to know that. So what was driving him?

Even if he sincerely bought into a con artist's sniveling he was told at the 1997 parole revocation hearing where he tried to sponsor this sicko that they would not allow Duncan around the doctor's children even if he was stupid enough to permit it. Several years later, after several prison review boards found Duncan still exhibiting problems the good doctor encouraged Duncan to relocate to his town where he registered as a Level III sex offender because he had to. When the neighbors found out about Duncan's past they held meetings to protest it and Wacksman vouched for him again. Shortly after his public defense of a convicted child rapist while living there in Harwood ND, he relocated to New Port Richey, Florida. His wife is now a pharmacist and he has been getting more education. How on Earth does this person continue to support a child molester? I think we are going to see this guy and Crary have to do some real image clean up or flee their areas and find anonymity elsewhere. There just is no excuse at all for these men to have given the degree of support exposed here for just some "friend" or "acquaintance" as Crary called him. There has to be more going on and I hope BOR uncovers it.

Dara, I don't think Duncan said they met in Florida -- that is what Wacksman told a reporter. I thought perhaps the reporter just made a mistake because they met in a coffee house in San Francisco. I still have not found out exactly when it was, but Duncan said it someplace in his blog and he alluded to it being when he was acting outside the rules of his parole. Duncan's father died in San Fran in 1995 I think and it may have been in connection with that event that Duncan was in San Fran. He was on parole during the 1994-1997 period and should not have been out of the state of Washington without permission, so even though the details are hazy, that is when they met.

I'll go back and check to see if I can find out what Duncan said about their meeting. Ugh, I hate to read his blog!

[Nchadwickaz]

I won't post a whole long discourse on all I learned about pedophiles during the MJ trial because this group is well-informed, but if I know sex offenders often reoffend and that criminals often lie about their guilt and on and on, Wacksman did, too.

I truely believe that there is not a cure, this is a sick, mental (hard-wired wrong, whatever) and they need to be locked up also... your posting reminded me that during the MJ trial -- I posed on my site and left the link to the DSM criteria of a pedophile.... pretty interesting to say the least -- but it is crazy if you read down to the part "how do they gain trust' or something like that -- they do mention sadism is different mo. Here is the link, from my posing at the mj thread... or you can access here (http://spaces.msn.com/members/nikkiandaaron/blog/cns!1phPMRHJPf9_FrafwLz7zauA!472.entry)

I have not followed this case too much.... however -- I have posted on my site sometime before the verdict what the DSM IV TR (which most professionals use to dianosis mental distorders) criteria of a pedophile.

It is pretty eerie how much he fits the profile/criteria. I quoted out of the actual book, if you are interested -- please check it out...Defination of Pedophilia (http://un-politicallycorrect.blogspot.com/2005/06/defination-of-pedophilia.html)

[Dara]

I agree. Can you even imagine a pediatrician with a practice dependent on children having any motivation of any kind to try to defend this guy in a public way? It makes no sense at all and he had to know that. So what was driving him?

Even if he sincerely bought into a con artist's sniveling he was told at the 1997 parole revocation hearing where he tried to sponsor this sicko that they would not allow Duncan around the doctor's children even if he was stupid enough to permit it. Several years later, after several prison review boards found Duncan still exhibiting problems the good doctor encouraged Duncan to relocate to his town where he registered as a Level III sex offender because he had to. When the neighbors found out about Duncan's past they held meetings to protest it and Wacksman vouched for him again. Shortly after his public defense of a convicted child rapist while living there in Harwood ND, he relocated to New Port Richey, Florida. His wife is now a pharmacist and he has been getting more education. How on Earth does this person continue to support a child molester? I think we are going to see this guy and Crary have to do some real image clean up or flee their areas and find anonymity elsewhere. There just is no excuse at all for these men to have given the degree of support exposed here for just some "friend" or "acquaintance" as Crary called him. There has to be more going on and I hope BOR uncovers it. Great post. Wacksman sure risked a lot for Duncan, considering his repeated defense to his community. Risked his own kids, his reputation, his career. When he should know about pedophiles. I heard ducks quacking, if you know what I mean and I think you do.
Dara, I don't think Duncan said they met in Florida -- that is what Wacksman told a reporter. When I said "met" in Fort Lauderdale, I was talking about the Florida vacation. Not their initial meeting. Sorry to be unclear. I started looking harder at Wacksman because I read something about the Florida vacation. I'd thought it was terrible (but not unexpected) that he'd let Duncan visit him at his house, then remembered that Duncan had blogged they'd met (make that met UP) in Fort Lauderdale, not at Wacksman's home.

I deleted the rest of your post just for space, but anything you find out about their history is worth knowing. Something is very wrong.

[Nchadwickaz]

I'll go back and check to see if I can find out what Duncan said about their meeting. Ugh, I hate to read his blog!
Here is the mention, I think you are looking for....

First is the graffati reference...

When I was hiding out from the Law in San Francisco in 1997, and living pretty much on the streets, I stumbled across a spray painted graffito on the back of a large fenced in commercial air conditioning unit where surprisingly few people would see it. It was in a part of downtown were the homeless congregated by the hundreds everyday (on the North side of the Civic Center Plaza). The message impacted me so much that I attempted to commit it to memory. However, I'd forgotten the words years ago, but had written them down trying to capture the exact way it was written. While cleaning out my desk at home just now, I found the little blank book that I had carried with me while I was on the lamb and used to write down such things. This is exactly what the graffito said: (dated 6-3-97)

http://web.archive.org/web/20050713080116/http://www.fifthnail.com/images/graffito.gif Here is 8 or 9 entries before here is the mention of the doctor, san fran, and a picture of the newspaper he is referring to...

http://web.archive.org/web/20050713080116/http://www.fifthnail.com/images/frontpagenews_s.jpgWell, here I am, at work Monday morning ready to start another week. I made arrangements this weekend to fly down to Florida on Feb 25th to visit a good friend near Tampa Bay. He and his wife are both Doctors, and fairly well off. I met him years ago while I was a fugitive in San Francisco. He was apparently impressed with my straight forward honesty and struggle to overcome my circumstance, so he took up my plight and we have become great friends since.
He has not only taken on my struggle, but as a result he and his family have been subject to public derision for their mere association with a Sex Offender. When my case hit front page news, his picture was on the front page right next to mine just because the paper learned that he had appeared at a parole hearing on my behalf! Because He was well known in the community we think the paper was trying to create a scandal. Fortunately they failed; All they succeeded in doing was hurting a very upstanding family that deserved no such ridicule. My friend and his family eventually packed their bags and moved to Florida where they have roots. So, that is where I'm going next month to visit, take in some of the attractions, and go for a cruise or two on my friends new "boat." I'm really looking forward to seeing him and his family again, it has been a while since they moved.

[Dara]

I truely believe that there is not a cure, this is a sick, mental (hard-wired wrong, whatever) and they need to be locked up also... your posting reminded me that during the MJ trial -- I posed on my site and left the link to the DSM criteria of a pedophile.... pretty interesting to say the least -- but it is crazy if you read down to the part "how do they gain trust' or something like that -- they do mention sadism is different mo. Here is the link, from my posing at the mj thread... or you can access here (http://spaces.msn.com/members/nikkiandaaron/blog/cns%211phPMRHJPf9_FrafwLz7zauA%21472.entry)
Thanks for the link! I read everything I could on pedophiles and child molesters during the MJ trial (followed it from his arrest on) because I didn't know much when it started. Wow, what an education I got! I don't know where Duncan falls, so I list everything. Someone posted about sexual sadism recently and it sounded like JED, but I haven't dug in enough to know what he is. Really, he's such a monster, I can only think about him for so long. I haven't been able to read all his blog, so I don't what he is except a monster.

My take on the nature versus nurture debate is that however abusers like JED got that way, it seems that no matter what, they stay that way. And most reoffend. There is no cure. If they're born that way, it's tragic, but the reality is we can't fix them. So, we can keep studying them and trying to find causes and cures, and maybe someday they'll find a gene or a drug or a therapy. That would be fantastic. They can use my tax dollars for that, as long as they're also using my tax dollars to keep them from harming others. So far, not so good.

[Nchadwickaz]

Wow, what an education I got! I don't know where Duncan falls, so I list everything. Someone posted about sexual sadism recently and it sounded like JED,
You should check your local libary and look through the current DSM -- pretty interesting, I had to buy the book for a college class -- was about 50-60 bucks -- pretty expensive -- but one of the few college books I still reference and by far worth the money I paid for it...

Here are some other classifications that he fits into...

It is not uncommon for someone who is mentally screwed up to have more then one dianosis -- Personality Disorders (as far as the DMS -- Dianostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- which is used by most professionals for dianosising), btw had to dig out since this caught my interest... here is a break down of JUST Personality Disorders that I see, NOT TO even delve into all aspects of his disfunction....


This is just from what I have read about and analysed by reading his web information...these are the "general description" of the disorder, the actual criteria for dianosis is very detailed and very specific.... I have bolded the disorders that I saw

1. Peranoid Personality Disorder - Is a pattern of distrust and suspiciousness such that others' motives are interpreted as malevolent. -- I see this throughout his entries on fifthnail site.

2. Schizoid Peronality Disorder is a pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of emotional expression.

3. Antisocial Personality Disorder is a pattern of deregard for, and violation of, the rights of others.

4. Borderline Personality Disorder is a pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affexts, and marked impulsivity. Possible not sure, did I read that he was in an accident somewhere when he was younger and his appearence was effected???:waitasec:

5. Histronic Personality Disorder is a pattern of execessive emotionality and attention seeking.

6. Narcissistic Personality disorder is a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy.

7. Avoidant Personalty disorder is a pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadquacy, and hypersensitivity to negative evaluation. Very clear by his defense mechnisms...

8. Dependent Personality Disorder is a pattern of submissive and clinging behavior related to an excessive need to be taken care of

9. Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder - is a pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and control

He definalty discloses throughout his entries of his array of defense mechnism -- denial, justification, and made an art of the use of distraction (I may be this but you....., he is bad.... therefore I am not that bad, everyone is bad...just depends on the degree of bad) -- I actually was very intrigued by his continual justification.

[Cowgirl]

Nikki,

Thanks a million, Nikki, for finding this stuff and saving me from reading his crap again! Ugh, my stomach turns from this whining, self-absorbed a-hole. So much of his blog says, "Don't feel sorry for me, I am not looking for sympathy" but all he does is whine and look for sympathy! Don't feel sorry for me but Waaaaaaaaaah, poor me, no one wants my real person around so I pretend to be someone else.

Oh, Dara, I see what you meant...yes, they did "meet" in Ft Lauderdale since Wacksman lives way up in New Port Richey, called NPR by the locals, by the way. Not national public radio, which is probably what you think of with NPR!

I just know there is more to the story, even if Wacksman is just gay or bi. There is no reason anyone risks that much of his life for some acquaintance.

[Dara]

Thanks again, Nchadwickaz. Your insights are fascinating. And from what we know so far, it looks to me like you're spot on. I hope you continue to share your information and insights as we go on.

I have to admit, during the MJ trial, I devoured information and became educated about pedophilia and sex crimes against children (I did tons of research and also read everything my fellow posters generously shared), in this one, I'm having a very hard time stomaching glimpses into JED's head enough to translate what I learn over to actual classifications/information (I keep rewording that and it never makes sense...sorry). Maybe I'll get over that, and certainly in other trials I follow, I will, but right now, I just want him locked up forever or put to death.

[BillyGoatGruff]

I agree. Can you even imagine a pediatrician with a practice dependent on children having any motivation of any kind to try to defend this guy in a public way? It makes no sense at all and he had to know that. So what was driving him?

Even if he sincerely bought into a con artist's sniveling he was told at the 1997 parole revocation hearing where he tried to sponsor this sicko that they would not allow Duncan around the doctor's children even if he was stupid enough to permit it. Several years later, after several prison review boards found Duncan still exhibiting problems the good doctor encouraged Duncan to relocate to his town where he registered as a Level III sex offender because he had to. When the neighbors found out about Duncan's past they held meetings to protest it and Wacksman vouched for him again. Shortly after his public defense of a convicted child rapist while living there in Harwood ND, he relocated to New Port Richey, Florida. His wife is now a pharmacist and he has been getting more education. How on Earth does this person continue to support a child molester? I think we are going to see this guy and Crary have to do some real image clean up or flee their areas and find anonymity elsewhere. There just is no excuse at all for these men to have given the degree of support exposed here for just some "friend" or "acquaintance" as Crary called him. There has to be more going on and I hope BOR uncovers it.

Dara, I don't think Duncan said they met in Florida -- that is what Wacksman told a reporter. I thought perhaps the reporter just made a mistake because they met in a coffee house in San Francisco. I still have not found out exactly when it was, but Duncan said it someplace in his blog and he alluded to it being when he was acting outside the rules of his parole. Duncan's father died in San Fran in 1995 I think and it may have been in connection with that event that Duncan was in San Fran. He was on parole during the 1994-1997 period and should not have been out of the state of Washington without permission, so even though the details are hazy, that is when they met.

I'll go back and check to see if I can find out what Duncan said about their meeting. Ugh, I hate to read his blog!
Well, judging from what I read on the Jetti-Jet site, where he goes on at length about being a prison bitch/male prostitute, it's not impossible that the docotr and Crary are simply VERY closeted homosexuals who had clandestine gay relationships with Duncan, and whom he blackmailed for $$$.

[Shazzie]

Well, judging from what I read on the Jetti-Jet site, where he goes on at length about being a prison bitch/male prostitute, it's not impossible that the docotr and Crary are simply VERY closeted homosexuals who had clandestine gay relationships with Duncan, and whom he blackmailed for $$$.
I wouldn't be surprised if you are right about that!

[surf_moon_stars]

My thoughts all along


I did not want to say it for the fear people reading (lurking) who may be involved (JMO) and might get mad if they read this.

I think it is BLACKMAIL too...and thebanker and pediatrician are both Duncan's meal ticket for money as he may have pics of them for money purposes.

I am definitely interested on finding out what is uncovered by the LE, and/or the fine posters of each site dedicating their time to finding the connection between Duncan and people who give money like it was Get out Of Jail Free cards....

To be continued....I am sure :(

[Liz]

Wow, feel like I just did an infomercial for O'Rielly also here (http://www.billoreilly.com/) is is website..

Nikki, one of old friends, that I go way back with (a 40 yr friendship), had O'Reilly for a teacher. Imagine that! ;) Can't seem to recall if it was English or History!

[Sofia]

Nikki,I just know there is more to the story, even if Wacksman is just gay or bi. There is no reason anyone risks that much of his life for some acquaintance.I agree Cowgirl. There are plenty of gay men around who aren't convicted sex offenders. IMO Wacksman wouldn't have gone as far as he did to cover up a gay liason. MJ got 12 people to believe his crap about the boy being after money, even with naked boy pictures and other victims testifying. Wacksman would have been easily able to convince his wife et al that a convicted peophile who is practically homeless was just trying to extort money.

[Cowgirl]

Well, judging from what I read on the Jetti-Jet site, where he goes on at length about being a prison bitch/male prostitute, it's not impossible that the docotr and Crary are simply VERY closeted homosexuals who had clandestine gay relationships with Duncan, and whom he blackmailed for $$$.Yep, they are going to be outted now. Good. Enabling this freak is on their heads. And if it is blackmail, put up or shut up.

[Vet4Bush]

Mickey Rat at the Cellar is reporting that Polimom found out that Duncan had a sexual relationship with Joe Crary and that Crary uses the name "Jeff".

http://jazzijet.blogspot.com/

[Cowgirl]

Mickey Rat at the Cellar is reporting that Polimom found out that Duncan had a sexual relationship with Joe Crary and that Crary uses the name "Jeff".

http://jazzijet.blogspot.com/Heh, I knew it wasn't just bikes they were riding together! That doughy guy did not look like a bike rider anyway, did he? I hope both of those freaks get all the public scorn they so richly deserve for their secret boyfriend/monster. F-wads, all of them.

[surf_moon_stars]

Wow, what a find.

I am completely blown away by the fact that all three of these people had to be involved with some type of "unspeakable acts" with eachother (per blog under jazz-jet) in and/or around their area
as things are just unfolding so quickly.

Wacksman and Crary are going to be exposed for who they may be in just a matter of short time


I commend each of you here who have done such a great job of keeping up on the new details that come to the surface during this case.

I definitely think , as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, that I think that Joe has pics, and/or other BLACKMAIL informaiton on both men, and that this was his "meal ticket" to get money at his convenience or leisure.

I did not see this blog until this AM..about this Crary posing as a guy named "Jeff" per the blog....did this just get exposed, because last time I saw, that guestbook was private entry only.

Who made it possible for us to see this piece of informaiton.

Kudos to you

JMO

Thanks for listening

[Incognito]

"Jeff" Joe could then relate back to the Jeff the salesman mentioned in the fifthnailblog

[Polimom]

Mickey Rat at the Cellar is reporting that Polimom found out that Duncan had a sexual relationship with Joe Crary and that Crary uses the name "Jeff".

http://jazzijet.blogspot.com/
I am not who stated a connection between Joe Crary and the "Jeff"/Joe with whom Jazzi-Jet had a relationship. I don't know that there is, or is not, such a tie at all.

My contribution was limited to finding the blogsite itself, and then sending the information to Mickey Rat.

(just fyi)

[Vet4Bush]

Right, it appears that Mickey Rat was the one who jumped to the conclusion that they were one and same. But he makes a good case for it.

[Shazzie]

In case I'm not the only clueless person here who was unfamiliar with Mickey Rat and the Cellar, here's a link I dug up on a Google search: http://jetd63.blogspot.com.

I don't have time to read much of it now, but it looks like it should be interesting.

[Sofia]

http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/2002oep/r2/jcrary.pdf

This guy was born in Fargo, and attended Shanley High School. If you search "shanley high school" and crary you get a donation Crary Co. made to Shanley HS. http://www.fcsn.k12.nd.us/auction/2004docs/LIVEItemsRpt.pdf

Do you think this James A. Crary is related to Joe Crary?

[Cowgirl]

http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/2002oep/r2/jcrary.pdf

This guy was born in Fargo, and attended Shanley High School. If you search "shanley high school" and crary you get a donation Crary Co. made to Shanley HS. http://www.fcsn.k12.nd.us/auction/2004docs/LIVEItemsRpt.pdf

Do you think this James A. Crary is related to Joe Crary?I suppose they could be, but they surely don't look at all alike. :laugh: Why, did you find something perverted about this James guy?

Joe's business has been quite successful. I understand how he could write a check for $15K with no problem, but I will never understand why he would. Or maybe I do. It is just so gross. Just the thought of Duncan the drag queen being butt buddies with old Joe here... there is one born every minute, they say.

[bunniluv]

Hi All...

I'm new in here and thought I'd wander over from the cellar to see what info you guys had dug up. I find that if you can wander between the two (and there may be more) you can fill in some of the gaps.

In reading about the good ol' doc and Jeff/Joe...it got me to thinking about the "teacher friend" he mentions in CA:
¶ 11:42 PM (http://fifthnail.blogspot.com/2004/04/ouch.php)
Well, I have been busy. The weekend before last I was in Ft. Lauderdale Florida visiting my "Doctor Friend" (as my family calls him) who was there taking a class toward his second doctorate. It was just a short trip, mostly to visit, and sort of a mini-vacation. I tried to make a dive trip out of it, but the ocean was too choppy and I was completely exhausted before I even got past the surf, much less out to the reef. It was still fun though.

Then, just last weekend I had my "Retired-Teacher Friend" from Concord California visiting for the weekend. I'm not sure if he enjoyed his visit, he doesn't care for cats very much and I have two. We drove down to Minneapolis and saw the Mall of America and rode some of the rides. That was fun.

Thing is...there's been little mention of him. Wonder what "treasures" a lil digging would unearth on this guy?

[Cowgirl]

Hi All...

I'm new in here and thought I'd wander over from the cellar to see what info you guys had dug up. I find that if you can wander between the two (and there may be more) you can fill in some of the gaps.

In reading about the good ol' doc and Jeff/Joe...it got me to thinking about the "teacher friend" he mentions in CA:
¶ 11:42 PM (http://fifthnail.blogspot.com/2004/04/ouch.php)
Well, I have been busy. The weekend before last I was in Ft. Lauderdale Florida visiting my "Doctor Friend" (as my family calls him) who was there taking a class toward his second doctorate. It was just a short trip, mostly to visit, and sort of a mini-vacation. I tried to make a dive trip out of it, but the ocean was too choppy and I was completely exhausted before I even got past the surf, much less out to the reef. It was still fun though.

Then, just last weekend I had my "Retired-Teacher Friend" from Concord California visiting for the weekend. I'm not sure if he enjoyed his visit, he doesn't care for cats very much and I have two. We drove down to Minneapolis and saw the Mall of America and rode some of the rides. That was fun.

Thing is...there's been little mention of him. Wonder what "treasures" a lil digging would unearth on this guy?Where would one start digging? No name, nothing... but let us know if you find something!

And welcome to the board!

[bunniluv]

Thanks Cowgirl...glad to be here! :)

[Sofia]

One of the JED sites, I think Jetduncan.com said that Crary was part owner in BraatenCabinets (braatencabinets.com). A whois gave a PO box, which when I searched came up with this info. (it's listed as the mailing address for Braaten Cabinets all over the web, too)http://co.grand.co.us/Assessor/PropertySearch2/subdivision_pdf.php?SubCode=4120

LodgePole Pines, LLC
PO Box 249
Fargo, ND

Crary, Chalus, and Crary
A North Dakota General Partnership
PO Box 249
Fargo, ND

And this other page
http://co.grand.co.us/Assessor/PropertySearch2/subdivision_pdf.php?SubCode=2030

Just some add'l info about Crary.

[Sofia]

Properties owned by Lodgepole Pines, LLC

http://co.grand.co.us/Assessor/PropertySearch2/taxes.php?AccountNO=R192423

http://co.grand.co.us/Assessor/PropertySearch2/details.php?AccountNO=R192422

http://co.grand.co.us/Assessor/PropertySearch2/subdivision_rec.php?SubCode=4120

[Sofia]

http://www.searchsystems.net/frame.php?id=ada63c0c4468ae683fdea334abf348da&nid=43&we=MTEyMjU3MzQyNw%3D%3D

http://web.apps.state.nd.us/images/sec/ems/ndsos-logo1.gifNorth Dakota Secretary of State
Online Services - Election Management System

Disclosure Reports (http://www.state.nd.us/sec/campfinance/dis-report.html)
Contributions by Contributor Name

Printer Friendly Version (http://web.apps.state.nd.us/sec/emspublic/gp/cfdisclosurerptsearchbycontrib.htm?year=2000&search.x=99&lastName=crary&result=75&cmd=byContribName&type=byContrib&search.x=21&search.y=5#) | Download Tab-Delimited File (http://web.apps.state.nd.us/sec/emspublic/gp/cfdisclosurerptsearchbycontrib.htm?year=2000&search.x=99&lastName=crary&result=75&cmd=byContribName&type=byContrib&search.x=21&search.y=5#)

Search Results for "crary"

2 Contributions found

Crary, Joseph

Address 1:
xxxx 17 St S
City, State/Province, Zip/Postal:
Fargo, ND 58104
Date / Amount:
09/11/2000 $250.00
Contributed to:
Hoeven 2000 Committee

[Sofia]

No wonder JED thought he was going to own an ultralight plane soon.
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http://www.searchsystems.net/frame.php?id=013b74cbb8bd31f306dc9fd99999d875&nid=43&we=MTEyMjU3Mzg0Nw%3D%3D

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System IDEntity NameStatusTypeAnnual Report Form to File (pdf)932100 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=932100&entitytype=Corporation)CRARY COMPANYActive & Good Standing Corporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 9530500 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=9530500&entitytype=Corporation)CRARY CONTRACTING, INC.Active & Good Standing Corporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 7125300 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=7125300&entitytype=Corporation)CRARY DEVELOPMENT, INC.Active & Good Standing Corporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 7632300 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=7632300&entitytype=Corporation)CRARY HOMES & REAL ESTATE, INC.Active & Good Standing Corporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 9551500 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=9551500&entitytype=Corporation)CRARY LAND COMPANY, INC.Active & Good Standing Corporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 14767400 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=14767400&entitytype=Partnership)JOSEPH F. & CHARLES F. CRARY, LLPActive & Good Standing Partnership 17221800 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=17221800&entitytype=Partnership)JOSEPH F. CRARY FAMILY LLLPActive & Good Standing Partnership 6735700 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=6735700&entitytype=Corporation)ST. BENEDICT'S CHURCH OF ONTARIO TOWNSHIP(CRARY)Retired by MergerCorporation2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2005 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#)
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http://www.searchsystems.net/frame.php?id=013b74cbb8bd31f306dc9fd99999d875&nid=43&we=MTEyMjU3Mzg0Nw%3D%3D

11242100 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/details.htm?id=11242100&entitytype=Corporation) LODGEPOLE PINES, L.L.C. Active & Good Standing LLC 2003 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#) 2004 (https://secure.apps.state.nd.us/sc/busnsrch/busnSearch.htm#)

http://www.state.nd.us/sec/pdf/sfn13016-05.pdf

Shows Braaten Cabinets owned by Joseph Crary

[dragonfly]

http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/2002oep/r2/jcrary.pdf

This guy was born in Fargo, and attended Shanley High School. If you search "shanley high school" and crary you get a donation Crary Co. made to Shanley HS. http://www.fcsn.k12.nd.us/auction/2004docs/LIVEItemsRpt.pdf

Do you think this James A. Crary is related to Joe Crary?Sofia,
Great Sleuthing!
I think you might be onto something with this link to JIM CRARY. What I noticed was the item they donatated at the Shanley High School Auction.....A $2735.00 WEED ROLLER! sure does look sound like an agricultural piece of equipment to me...especially with a price tag like that!
Now look at this website link to the Crary Co. http://www.crary.com (http://www.crary.com/)

Professionally, Joe Crary is known as a real estate developer, investor and part owner of Fargo's Braaten Cabinets. Forum records show he served on the executive committee of the Fargo-Cass County Economic Development Corp. from at least 1996 to 2001.
In 1979, he and his cousin, Chuck Crary, founded Crary Co.,
The growth of the company in West Fargo resulted in Crary C