Evidence #2

[chicoliving]

Here ya go. New thread fill er up :)

[mysteriew]

Ok, I had this typed once, and thread got closed before I posted it. You caught me Chico!
Ok, when LE gets to a crime scene where a murder has occurred, they have probable cause to search. However they cannot remove items, unless they feel that they are criminal, or related to this crime.
So they would have searched the property. The outbuildings, the vehicles on the property as well as the house. They don't type up a list for the judge of where they have searched, but if they find anything they want to further test or remove- they will type that up and take it to the judge requesting a warrant. So they search the house and get a warrant for the items of interest. They search the outbuildings, but see nothing of interest. They search the vehicles. The Durango and it shows signs of recently being driven. A knife is found inside and the witness indicates it was recently driven. That gets mentioned, because they want a warrant for the knife, pawn ticket, and soil samples (?). They search the Acura and nothing suspicious is found, so it doesn't get mentioned in the warrant. Same as the outbuildings.
Think of the house. Presumably they searched it. Did they mention they checked in the washer and dryer? No, there was nothing there of any interest. But, I would almost bet they looked. They looked at the walls, the pictures on the walls, the beds, under the beds, probably under mattresses. They did the same in the baby's room. None of this gets mentioned- if nothing significant is found. Same with the vehicles.

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks, mysteriew. I definitely understand better now what you're saying. But before I drop this, is there anyone that can verify that other vehicles were or were not there that night? I've heard so many things in so many cases that I'm having trouble remembering the specifics of the cars in this one. I thought I remembered hearing that the Durango was indeed the only vehicle on the scene but I can't be sure of that. Can someone refresh my memory?

[golfmom]

Thanks, mysteriew. I definitely understand better now what you're saying. But before I drop this, is there anyone that can verify that other vehicles were or were not there that night? I've heard so many things in so many cases that I'm having trouble remembering the specifics of the cars in this one. I thought I remembered hearing that the Durango was indeed the only vehicle on the scene but I can't be sure of that. Can someone refresh my memory?

I can't confirm it, but I also heard that the Durango was the only vehicle on the scene. Which blows my mind, considering Raven was going-and-a-blowing to a pick-up soccer game, leaving his wife and baby home ALONE without ANY transportation in case of an emergency.

So, my question of the day is: Did Janet tell Raven she was leaving him and he made sure she didn't have an vehicle in which to escape?

Pretty pre-meditated if that indeed is the case.

[Jenifred]

I can't confirm it, but I also heard that the Durango was the only vehicle on the scene. Which blows my mind, considering Raven was going-and-a-blowing to a pick-up soccer game, leaving his wife and baby home ALONE without ANY transportation in case of an emergency.

So, my question of the day is: Did Janet tell Raven she was leaving him and he made sure she didn't have an vehicle in which to escape?

Pretty pre-meditated if that indeed is the case.
But that seems like a lot of shuffling cars around especially for Raven to do alone. Plus, if the home teachers were at their house, what time was that--7:30-ish, could he pull that off in that amount of time? And if he killed Janet first then shuffled the cars around there would possibly have to be some evidence in the other cars, traces or something. But if he shuffled the cars around before he killed Janet, don't you think that Janet would have been calling someone saying "my husband is acting really weird, I think I need to get out of here?"

Is there any information out there from the friends that Janet was possibly instant messaging? Like, what time did their conversations stop? What made them come by early the next morning (like the early reports have said)?

[JerseyGirl]

But that seems like a lot of shuffling cars around especially for Raven to do alone. Plus, if the home teachers were at their house, what time was that--7:30-ish, could he pull that off in that amount of time? And if he killed Janet first then shuffled the cars around there would possibly have to be some evidence in the other cars, traces or something. But if he shuffled the cars around before he killed Janet, don't you think that Janet would have been calling someone saying "my husband is acting really weird, I think I need to get out of here?"If Raven is the perp, he could have planned this for months for all we know. Maybe he scheduled the appointments a week in advance, and Janet thought nothing of it. And from what we've heard, Raven was very energetic and didn't sleep much, (correct?). I don't think that shuffling the cars around would have been a problem for Raven. If they got home from work around 5:30 and the hometeachers got there at 7:00, that would give them an hour and a half to take the cars to the shop, (if that's what happened). If the shop was only a mile away, that wouldn't have been a problem.

I guess there are too many variables that we don't know. But I'm very curious about the car situation, nonetheless.

[ewwwinteresting]

Ok, I had this typed once, and thread got closed before I posted it. You caught me Chico!
Ok, when LE gets to a crime scene where a murder has occurred, they have probable cause to search. However they cannot remove items, unless they feel that they are criminal, or related to this crime.
So they would have searched the property. The outbuildings, the vehicles on the property as well as the house. They don't type up a list for the judge of where they have searched, but if they find anything they want to further test or remove- they will type that up and take it to the judge requesting a warrant. So they search the house and get a warrant for the items of interest. They search the outbuildings, but see nothing of interest. They search the vehicles. The Durango and it shows signs of recently being driven. A knife is found inside and the witness indicates it was recently driven. That gets mentioned, because they want a warrant for the knife, pawn ticket, and soil samples (?). They search the Acura and nothing suspicious is found, so it doesn't get mentioned in the warrant. Same as the outbuildings.
Think of the house. Presumably they searched it. Did they mention they checked in the washer and dryer? No, there was nothing there of any interest. But, I would almost bet they looked. They looked at the walls, the pictures on the walls, the beds, under the beds, probably under mattresses. They did the same in the baby's room. None of this gets mentioned- if nothing significant is found. Same with the vehicles.
Thanks for the info! But the way I look at the search warrant info, the detective was only at the house 20 minutues before he left to get the search warrant. How could he have checked the entire house, out buildings and any and all vehicles in 20 minutes?

[Moxie]

Thanks for the info! But the way I look at the search warrant info, the detective was only at the house 20 minutues before he left to get the search warrant. How could he have checked the entire house, out buildings and any and all vehicles in 20 minutes?Maybe he saw enough to know that he would need a search warrant to get what he needed?

[ewwwinteresting]

Maybe he saw enough to know that he would need a search warrant to get what he needed?
True....which would lead us to:

1. Overwhelming evidence of who did this waiting to be returned from the lab?

2. LE too zealous and didn't search everything they should have. The evidence they collected didn't pan out and now there is no evidence?

3. Jumped to the conclusion that Raven did this and he did not?

Any other ideas?

[bluegirl]

Ok, I had this typed once, and thread got closed before I posted it. You caught me Chico!
Ok, when LE gets to a crime scene where a murder has occurred, they have probable cause to search. However they cannot remove items, unless they feel that they are criminal, or related to this crime.
So they would have searched the property. The outbuildings, the vehicles on the property as well as the house. They don't type up a list for the judge of where they have searched, but if they find anything they want to further test or remove- they will type that up and take it to the judge requesting a warrant. So they search the house and get a warrant for the items of interest. They search the outbuildings, but see nothing of interest. They search the vehicles. The Durango and it shows signs of recently being driven. A knife is found inside and the witness indicates it was recently driven. That gets mentioned, because they want a warrant for the knife, pawn ticket, and soil samples (?). They search the Acura and nothing suspicious is found, so it doesn't get mentioned in the warrant. Same as the outbuildings.
Think of the house. Presumably they searched it. Did they mention they checked in the washer and dryer? No, there was nothing there of any interest. But, I would almost bet they looked. They looked at the walls, the pictures on the walls, the beds, under the beds, probably under mattresses. They did the same in the baby's room. None of this gets mentioned- if nothing significant is found. Same with the vehicles.

The problem that we have here...is lack of media coverage. Thank about the Peterson case the media was camped outside his doorstep.. the media puts the heat on the LE to find the killer. We need to find a way to raise money to find the killer. Money always talks. Anyone have any ideas who to ask for money? I promise I'm still trying to use my media coverage contact to try and push this story out. Why doesn't everyone write the talk shows that are out there. If we all do it maybe they will pick it up. Montel, Oprah, etc.. etc...
What about the lady that talks about the Natalie murder all the time? I can't think of her name right off the top of my head.
I don't know I'm just so frustrated right now:(

[ewwwinteresting]

The problem that we have here...is lack of media coverage. Thank about the Peterson case the media was camped outside his doorstep.. the media puts the heat on the LE to find the killer. We need to find a way to raise money to find the killer. Money always talks. Anyone have any ideas who to ask for money? I promise I'm still trying to use my media coverage contact to try and push this story out. Why doesn't everyone write the talk shows that are out there. If we all do it maybe they will pick it up. Montel, Oprah, etc.. etc...
What about the lady that talks about the Natalie murder all the time? I can't think of her name right off the top of my head.
I don't know I'm just so frustrated right now:(
We are all on the same boat here bg! I think the problem is nobody that knows Janet or Raven are willing to talk to the media. If they were, I think we would have massive media coverage on this case. Think about it, if Scott's or Laci's family and friends refused to say anything, the media coverage would have been zilch. If Natalee's family and friends refused to talk to the media, there would be no coverage. There has been no reward offered by the husband or the families. There is just not much to report when LE AND Family AND Friends are not talking.

I guess we could all get together and put a reward out there....now wouldn't that look stupid:doh: ...a bunch of websleuthers are offering a reward because the husband and family and those that know Janet haven't! Hmmm...maybe that is news?? :)

[hoppyfrog]

What about the lady that talks about the Natalie murder all the time? I can't think of her name right off the top of my head.
Greta Van Susteren at Fox News? I never watch her, but the posters on the Natalee Holloway board talk about her and her coverage of Natalee's case all the time.

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

Greta Van Susteren at Fox News? I never watch her, but the posters on the Natalee Holloway board talk about her and her coverage of Natalee's case all the time.

HoppyI'm sure that's it. I have her on in the background right now, and it's another full show about Natalee.

[lauriej]

But that seems like a lot of shuffling cars around especially for Raven to do alone. Plus, if the home teachers were at their house, what time was that--7:30-ish, could he pull that off in that amount of time? And if he killed Janet first then shuffled the cars around there would possibly have to be some evidence in the other cars, traces or something. But if he shuffled the cars around before he killed Janet, don't you think that Janet would have been calling someone saying "my husband is acting really weird, I think I need to get out of here?"

Is there any information out there from the friends that Janet was possibly instant messaging? Like, what time did their conversations stop? What made them come by early the next morning (like the early reports have said)?
..........as far as shuffling the cars around........

.........we have heard that the VX was parked down the road with a for sale sign on it........

..........raven was presumably driving the Durango that night
.........he'd given the Jeep to a friend...

....so, leaves only the Acura ( in the shop ? out for an oil change ?)

...the bike...........(mysteryview had asked earlier,) was a 2001 Ducati...............who knows where that was that night................or where it is now ????

...........it still amazes me that ONLY the durango is listed ( as far as we can tell) on the warrant..........and DID LE simply believe raven when he said that was the vehicle he drove that night ?
...........surely LE has checked on ALL of the abaroa vehicles and accounted for them.............

[ewwwinteresting]

I found parts of this article very interesting as it relates to Janet's case.

http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/default.asp?SectionID=DETAIL&ID=49367
Parents of slain ETSU student to be on CNN

By Sam Watson
Press Education Writer
swatson@johnsoncitypress.com (swatson@johnsoncitypress.com)

ATLANTA — Increasingly frustrated after nearly eight months of questions, slain East Tennessee State University student Johnia Berry’s parents are scheduled to appear soon on national television in hopes of expediting her killer’s capture.



Joan and Mike Berry will appear on an upcoming installment of CNN Headline News legal analyst Nancy Grace’s show to discuss their daughter’s murder investigation.

“There’s something wrong with our system,” Mrs. Berry said Tuesday in a telephone interview. “It’ll be eight months, and there’s still a killer out there.”

The 21-year-old student was stabbed to death at her west Knoxville apartment complex Dec. 6, just days before she was to graduate from ETSU with a degree in criminal justice and criminology.

Despite releasing a sketch of a man sought for questioning a few weeks after the murder, Knox County Sheriff’s Department investigators had not made an arrest as of Tuesday.

The parents garnered Grace’s attention after waiting 2 1/2 hours in line for a book signing to thank her for airing a brief report on the murder on Court TV. Grace’s producer called last week to invite the couple to her show.

They were originally scheduled to appear live on Grace’s show tonight at 8 p.m., but producers contacted the family on Tuesday to reschedule the interview as an Aug. 3 taping for a full program on the murder and investigation. No air date had been set.

Mrs. Berry said she hoped to make it through the interview without becoming emotional. The passage of time had not eased her family’s loss.

“It just affects every aspect of your life,” Mrs. Berry said. “The person just didn’t kill Johnia. He killed a lot of people who loved her.”

Producers also had asked Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison to appear on the Grace program, but a department spokeswoman said the sheriff’s schedule was tentative. She also said the department had no progress to report.

Mrs. Berry said she and her husband, who reside in the Atlanta area, remained supportive of the department’s investigative efforts, but they were frustrated by slow lab work on DNA evidence and Tennessee laws that limit whether DNA is gathered from criminals.

“Some of the DNA is taking so long to get back,” she said. “That seems to be the hold-up.

“We feel like the sheriff’s department has been working really hard, but sometimes they come to a standstill,” Mrs. Berry said.

She contrasted the delays to the immediate DNA reports compiled in the high-profile case of Natalee Holloway, who disappeared in Aruba in May during a high school graduation trip.

“It’s hard to understand how some cases get top priority and some cases take years,” Mrs. Berry said. “It shouldn’t matter whether you have money or prestige.”

State Sen. Ron Ramsey and state Rep. Steve Godsey, both R- Blountville, had been working with the family on the issue, she said, and the family had mailed 2,000 post cards to lawmakers in hopes of expediting the DNA results. She said Godsey had been particularly helpful.

Along with bringing further attention to the need for legal reforms for such investigations, Mrs. Berry said, she hoped the national television appearance would lead to developments in the case, either from someone who recognizes the man in the sketch or someone who has knowledge about the crime.

“I don’t feel like people do things like this and keep it a secret,” Mrs. Berry said. “Somebody’s got to know something.”

A $10,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the murder was announced in February. The Carole Sund/Carrington Memorial Reward Foundation, a fund created by families of three women murdered near Yosemite National Park in 1999, provided half of the money. An anonymous source provided the other $5,000.

Mrs. Berry said the family also had sponsored a billboard campaign in the Knoxville area to advertise the reward.

A former Bristol resident who was preparing to start graduate studies at the University of Tennessee, Johnia Berry was killed around 4 a.m. on Dec. 6. She was found outside a downstairs apartment in west Knoxville’s Brendon Park Apartments, 404 Rhodora Road, where she lived on the top floor. Her roommate, Jason Aymami, 23, also was stabbed and ran to a convenience market to call 911. Aymami’s injuries were treated at a local hospital, and he was soon released. In late December, the Knox County Sheriff’s Department released a sketch and description of a man sought in the investigation. The composite drawing, created from a witness’ description, showed a man in his 20s, about 5 feet, 8 inches tall, weighing around 150 pounds and wearing a blue Atlanta Braves baseball cap.


Notice the reward, billboard and media appearances. This family waited 8 months and are now totally frustrated. The family could have been doing this 7 months ago when the case was familiar. Sometimes that blind belief in the LE isn't so helpful in a case!

[JerseyGirl]

..........as far as shuffling the cars around........

.........we have heard that the VX was parked down the road with a for sale sign on it...........
I don't believe for a second that LE would just take Raven's word for it if that car was parked on a local corner. I believe that they would have searched that one too. Maybe they did and we just don't know about it. But IMO, unless those vehicles were under lock & key, LE would have been interested in checking them out.

...the bike...........(mysteryview had asked earlier,) was a 2001 Ducati...............who knows where that was that night................or where it is now ????I don't think that Raven had the bike anymore.

[JerseyGirl]

The 21-year-old student was stabbed to death at her west Knoxville apartment complex Dec. 6, just days before she was to graduate from ETSU with a degree in criminal justice and criminology.What a horrible irony. I hope that the new media attention will bring some answers to this family.

Thanks for the link, EI - it does get you thinking that it could all come down to slow lab work, and no real fire to force LE to move more quickly.

[Moxie]

Hi all - it has been confirmed that Raven had affairs while he worked at Eurosport. Does anyone know if the affairs were with people who worked at Eurosport, and if so, how many did he have? If you are not comfortable posting, I understand, just pm me. thanks.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Regarding vehicles at the crime scene:

I have received some information which I'll pass along here...keeping in mind, this is UNCONFIRMED information, but I personally feel very confident in it's accuracy (take that for what it's worth, as I have no way to actually verify any of this...)

There was only ONE vehicle at Ferrand Drive when LE arrived on the scene - the Dodge Durango, which was parked in the parking area beside the house.

The VX was parked at a shop, presumably for repairs, a good distance away from the area. (No idea WHEN the VX was actually dropped off at this garage. No idea the NAME of this garage, or, where it is located. No idea what TYPE of service was being perfromed.)

The Acura was taken into a garage, presumably for routine service, ie., oil change perhaps, the afternoon of the murder. (It is POSSIBLE that the Acura might have been left for service at a dealership, but not certain.)

Now, if this is true, several things immediately come to mind:

- Janet was at home, with Kaiden, while Raven presumably went to play soccer...with no vehicle around?

- Seems odd that in times of seemingly dire financial straights, that there would be money for car service? And for TWO cars, at the same time even?

- If LE in fact only searched the Durango, then they must have been fairly certain that there was no possibility of the other cars being of any interest to the crime/crime scene

- I realize that there are many people that drop off their vehicles at garages, so as to have them there the next morning, etc. But in this case, the timing seems so odd. We can surmise, I suppose, that Janet at least, worked that day...getting home, I don't know, maybe sometime between 4-6? And we've also heard that the Mormon hometeachers were at the house that evening. So I guess it's possible - Janet gets home from work, they drop off the Acura, (one must have driven the Acura and the other the Durango), then get back home in time for the hometeachers, etc. And, as one last thought on timing: IF the Acura was at a dealership for service, and if that dealership was the local Acura dealership, well, it's worth noting as a point of reference that there is NO Acura dealership in Durham. The closest one is in the adjacent town of Chapel Hill. Just guessing, but, from Ferrand Drive to Performance Acura in Chapel Hill is maybe 15-20 minutes. Just seems so rushed to me, but, perhaps that's just me.

- I would assume, too, that with the Acura now in the shop, that Raven was planning on taking Janet to work the next day, etc.?

Anyway - as I said, this is all certainly UNCONFIRMED information. But, certainly interesting and worthy of speculation I think...

[OffRoad]

Hi all - it has been confirmed that Raven had affairs while he worked at Eurosport. Does anyone know if the affairs were with people who worked at Eurosport, and if so, how many did he have? If you are not comfortable posting, I understand, just pm me. thanks.

I would like to post this, however, although I have been following this case here since my friend Janet's death, I have been relucant to post as I do not want to be recognized. Among the group of Janet's true friends, noone really wants to believe that Raven is capable of this. Although all signs do point to him, we just DON'T want to believe it.

I can confirm that Raven had affairs. Even while they were dating, Raven was never certian about the relationship. He was never all that reluctant to cheat, although he always returned to Janet, apologetic and revitalized. I think he always struggled between what he thought was right ( living a rightous church lifestyle) and what his soul told him he wanted.

Janet was one of the prettiest girls in school...always with the most incredible body, and always down for a game of skins (when we were actually able to take off the shirts and forget the heat). She was wonderful, beautiful and amazing. I think he always loved how "perfect" she was, it really fit his mold. However, all of us married folk know that no one is perfect when you live with them 24/7.

Raven, although a wonderful person to be around, has alway had a dark side. A side searching for answers and "soul".

He has had affairs, and questions about the relationship, long before he married Janet. I love Raven, and truly hope he is innocent of this.

[lauriej]

thank you for posting offroad..

...i can't imagine what it would be like to read a forum such as this one, when you are personally involved in knowing the victim.....and being a friend ,or acquaintance, of raven's as well.......

...i only know what i've read here regarding janet, and i know she's just the person i'd love to have as my next door neighbour........

...my heart goes out to you, having lost her at such a young age, all we can do now is keep her memory alive, and do all that we can to see that she has justice, and i know this forum is committed to just that..

...thankyou for sharing with us, take care.

[terminatrixator]

Welcome Off-Road. A few questions, if you feel you can answer, and I understand if you don't want to answer. Do you think most people that know Janet & Raven believe he did or didn't do it? Has anyone thought of holding a vigil of some sort for her? Have any of them contacted LE to see if there is any news? What were the thoughts of the friends regarding his embezzlement, that to me is a very dark side.

I was also wondering if Raven is innocent, why him or any of his family members don't contact LE asking daily, weekly or heck, monthly for information or put up a website LOOKING for the Killer.

It seems that he's going on with his life as if nothing happened. Crocodile tears only go so far, when he sees someone or talks with someone he knows, but I don't see him doing anything to try to help the LE find the killer either. He seems to have lots of time to play.

[ewwwinteresting]

I would like to post this, however, although I have been following this case here since my friend Janet's death, I have been relucant to post as I do not want to be recognized. Among the group of Janet's true friends, noone really wants to believe that Raven is capable of this. Although all signs do point to him, we just DON'T want to believe it.

I can confirm that Raven had affairs. Even while they were dating, Raven was never certian about the relationship. He was never all that reluctant to cheat, although he always returned to Janet, apologetic and revitalized. I think he always struggled between what he thought was right ( living a rightous church lifestyle) and what his soul told him he wanted.

Janet was one of the prettiest girls in school...always with the most incredible body, and always down for a game of skins (when we were actually able to take off the shirts and forget the heat). She was wonderful, beautiful and amazing. I think he always loved how "perfect" she was, it really fit his mold. However, all of us married folk know that no one is perfect when you live with them 24/7.

Raven, although a wonderful person to be around, has alway had a dark side. A side searching for answers and "soul".

He has had affairs, and questions about the relationship, long before he married Janet. I love Raven, and truly hope he is innocent of this.
For Kaiden's sake, I think we all hope this!

[golfmom]

Janet was one of the prettiest girls in school...always with the most incredible body, and always down for a game of skins (when we were actually able to take off the shirts and forget the heat). She was wonderful, beautiful and amazing. I think he always loved how "perfect" she was, it really fit his mold. However, all of us married folk know that no one is perfect when you live with them 24/7. .

OffRoad, first welcome to WS!

I have a question. What is a game of skins? I'm familar with skins as a game played while golfing, although there are no shirts taken off.

hmmm I'd consider paying to watch Sergio play without his shirt . . . .

[lauriej]

OffRoad, first welcome to WS!

I have a question. What is a game of skins? I'm familar with skins as a game played while golfing, although there are no shirts taken off.

hmmm I'd consider paying to watch Sergio play without his shirt . . . .
..........i know here in canada, we play "shirts and skins" quite often, ( basketball, soccer, etc...) one team keeps their shirt on, the other not.........to differentiate between the two when there is not a uniform involved..

[golfmom]

..........i know here in canada, we play "shirts and skins" quite often, ( basketball, soccer, etc...) one team keeps their shirt on, the other not.........to differentiate between the two when there is not a uniform involved..

Thanks Lauriej! I'm still noodling the idea of Sergio playing golf without his shirt on .... :D

[lauriej]

Thanks Lauriej! I'm still noodling the idea of Sergio playing golf without his shirt on .... :D
...yep...agreed on that...........( there's a few hockey players i wouldn't mind see playing shirtless either................brrrr...)

[Jenifred]

I've been thinking about the fatal stab wound--the one to the artery and lung at the base of the neck. So, I asked my husband--a medical student (take it or leave it guys)--if a wound there would spurt (forceful expulsion) or ooze. And he said that he thinks that it would probably spurt. And he also said that he thinks that it would be more than likely that the perp would have gotten blood on his/herself. So, where are Raven's clothes from that night? And wasn't there some blood stains on the wall in the room where Janet was found? I can't remember, so I will go look now.

[chicoliving]

I've been thinking about the fatal stab wound--the one to the artery and lung at the base of the neck. So, I asked my husband--a medical student (take it or leave it guys)--if a wound there would spurt (forceful expulsion) or ooze. And he said that he thinks that it would probably spurt. And he also said that he thinks that it would be more than likely that the perp would have gotten blood on his/herself. So, where are Raven's clothes from that night? And wasn't there some blood stains on the wall in the room where Janet was found? I can't remember, so I will go look now.
When the knife was removed spurting and then oozing would occur....the perp would have a hard time not to get blood on themselves, imo. I don't recall reading "blood spray" was on the walls or other items but more like smears but I'll have to re read to refresh the old memory.

From the link Police search for murder clues in e-mail (http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-637174.html)

They also confiscated trace evidence from 25-year-old Janet Abaroa's hands as well as the clothing her husband was wearing at the time.

[JerseyGirl]

They also confiscated trace evidence from 25-year-old Janet Abaroa's hands as well as the clothing her husband was wearing at the time.At the time LE arrived at the house; not necessarily what he was wearing at the time that she was being murdered.

[Jenifred]

Yes, it says in the warrant that there was a "large amount of blood near the body, there was stains on the walls of the bedroom, and there was blood stains near the side door of the residence." http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=4;w=800

Next thing--the report in the News Observer said that Janet was found in the kneeling position, but in the warrant it says that WL Early saw her on her back. But I'm thinking from the above statement, that maybe she was moved. Is is possible that Raven (or another officer) did find her on her knees and then moved her to her back (maybe while he was attempting to revive her or to get a better look at what had happened)? And it looks as if there were multiple blood stains on the wall.

Hmmmm..........

[JerseyGirl]

I've been thinking about the fatal stab wound--the one to the artery and lung at the base of the neck. So, I asked my husband--a medical student (take it or leave it guys)--if a wound there would spurt (forceful expulsion) or ooze. And he said that he thinks that it would probably spurt. And he also said that he thinks that it would be more than likely that the perp would have gotten blood on his/herself. So, where are Raven's clothes from that night? And wasn't there some blood stains on the wall in the room where Janet was found? I can't remember, so I will go look now.Like chicoliving said, it sounds as if the blood on the walls were smears and the majority of blood was under the body. But a lot depends on the position she was in. We first heard that she was on her back, then we heard that she was curled up in a fetal position, and now we hear that she was kneeling. If she was indeed kneeling after rolling over from the attack, that would explain the lack of blood on the walls, (if we're reading the reports of the blood correctly).

[terminatrixator]

Good catch there Jersey Girl.

[Jenifred]

Folks--take a look at this page, maybe nothing big, but it jumped out at me while I was looking again at the warrant.

http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=10;w=800

There was a swabbing and control taken from the floor in the Master bathroom. Never noticed that before. Maybe someone was cleaning up?

(The link also shows swabbings taken from the computer desk and walls.)

[golfmom]

Previously Rooster posted:

Rooster
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfmom
Rooster are you saying that they had no land line? I could understand that under the financial conditions.

But, Raven would need to have blood on his clothes and shoes to track it through to the durango ... was Raven also the one who tracked the blood through the house as well? Did he in fact try to revive Janet? If he did, how could he mistake it for a gunshot wound? How could he just tell the police that his wife was injured only?

ROOSTER: He tried... . I have never seen a stab wound or a gunshot wound. I don't think I could tell you the difference. I guess that's what it looked like to him.

He said she was hurt. And she was.

..............
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=3361221

The autopsy report reveals the 25-year-old was stabbed in the neck and chest. Her right middle finger had also been cut.
She was found in a kneeling position inside her Ferrand Drive home on April 26th. Her six month old son was in another room, but unharmed.

..........

So my question is, HOW did he try to revive her and she remain in the kneeling position?

On the surface this story supposedly from Raven doesn't agree with what is being published in the media at this time.

[JerseyGirl]

And with the wounds that have now been described, how in the hell can that be mistaken for a gunshot???

[golfmom]

And with the wounds that have now been described, how in the hell can that be mistaken for a gunshot???

And what about him saying she had been "hurt" ... if he found her dead on her knees, why would he say she had been "hurt"

[Moxie]

Folks--take a look at this page, maybe nothing big, but it jumped out at me while I was looking again at the warrant.

http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=10;w=800

There was a swabbing and control taken from the floor in the Master bathroom. Never noticed that before. Maybe someone was cleaning up?

(The link also shows swabbings taken from the computer desk and walls.)
Holy cow JF - that might be a huge find!

[JerseyGirl]

There was a swabbing and control taken from the floor in the Master bathroom. Never noticed that before. Maybe someone was cleaning up?I think we discussed this briefly but without additional information from LE, it was hard to know exactly what it could mean. Was the swabbing blood? Had Raven provided DNA? Had the drains been searched? I hope that all of the information will start to fit together soon.

[SouthEastSleuth]

On the original search warrant, in the text written by the first detective on the scene, W. L. Early, he writes the following:

"....I observed in an upstairs bedroom, the body of a white female laying on her back, with what appeared to be a stab wound to her chest...."

Now we know this was a bedroom being used as an office. But I would find it hard to believe that this first investigator would say "laying on her back," if in fact she was in a kneeling position. That said, is the difference just in semantics? Who knows.

[golfmom]

On the original search warrant, in the text written by the first detective on the scene, W. L. Early, he writes the following:

"....I observed in an upstairs bedroom, the body of a white female laying on her back, with what appeared to be a stab wound to her chest...."

Now we know this was a bedroom being used as an office. But I would find it hard to believe that this first investigator would say "laying on her back," if in fact she was in a kneeling position. That said, is the difference just in semantics? Who knows.

He was the first detective on the scene ... but what if there were police officers or medical assistance there before him?

[SouthEastSleuth]

Ah, so you suggest she could have been found by the paramedics in a kneeling postion then? Ok, I guess that could be true. So then if Early found her on her back, she had been moved....either by Raven as he attempted "to save her" or perhaps by the paramedics?

[chicoliving]

He was the first detective on the scene ... but what if there were police officers or medical assistance there before him?
Makes sense golfmom.....

[Moxie]

And what about him saying she had been "hurt" ... if he found her dead on her knees, why would he say she had been "hurt"
If he was trying to throw off LE, and take attention away from himself...

[terminatrixator]

Of course he was, like he can't tell the difference between a gunshot and a knife wound, he was trying to throw off speculation by the conflicting statements.

He really needs to be seen in this light:behindbar

[Justgimmethetruth]

This evidence is still too sketchy, but I am really pleased to see that something is being done in this case. It's gone way too long without anything conclusive!!

Justice for Janet

[terminatrixator]

You are right the evidence is sketchy right now, but it won't be for long!

[mysteriew]

In a kneeling position, the body needs support to remain in that position. To be kneeling- the person would have to be alive or supported by some furniture (ie a chair or table).

Normally when a person's aorta is cut there would be spray. Enough spray to get onto the person doing the cutting. But what if the person was standing behind and had on a short sleeve shirt (t shirt). The spray would be directed out and away from the suspects clothing. If the victim was kneeling over at the time of the attack- blood spray would be directed at the floor- body would then fall into it.

[LTUlegal]

By saying she was found in a kneeling position, could this have meant that Raven said he found her in this position? It just says she "was found", it doesn't say by whom.
I must admit that when I read the article that said she was found in a kneeling position, I had to take a step back & say "wait a minute".

[Jenifred]

In a kneeling position, the body needs support to remain in that position. To be kneeling- the person would have to be alive or supported by some furniture (ie a chair or table).

I'm thinking more along the lines that she was on her knees with her head on the floor. And I'm thinking that this must be the original position because in the police report the officer WL Early, said that there was a large amount of blood near the body. She must have collapsed there because if her lung was pierced, it would be very hard to breath. I'm just wondering why/how there was blood on the walls opposite and adjacent to the body.

Just thinking outloud.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm just wondering why/how there was blood on the walls opposite and adjacent to the body.It sounds as if they were smears and so unfortunately, it sounds as if there might have been a struggle, and perhaps she was against the wall(s) at some point.

[Moxie]

Since it sounds as if they were smears and so unfortunately, it sounds as if there might have been a struggle, and perhaps she was against the wall(s) at some point.
JG,

Sadly, I think you are right.

Moxie

[JerseyGirl]

I posted this on the media links thread as well but since we can't discuss anything there, I thought I'd put it here as well.

This story includes a video link on the right side of the page. Please be advised before viewing that the video shows part of a diagram of the wounds along with some writing.

abc11tv.com: Autopsy Reveals Twist in Abaroa's Death (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=3361221) (on the right side of the page, click VIDEO: Autopsy Reveals Twist in Abaroa's Death (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=3361221#).

[SouthEastSleuth]

I'm thinking more along the lines that she was on her knees with her head on the floor. And I'm thinking that this must be the original position because in the police report the officer WL Early, said that there was a large amount of blood near the body. She must have collapsed there because if her lung was pierced, it would be very hard to breath. I'm just wondering why/how there was blood on the walls opposite and adjacent to the body.

Just thinking outloud.

Family and friends of Janet, I apologize in advance for discussing the graphic details...but, unfortunately, I think quite often, evidence, etc., is all on the details...but, that said, it's not my intent to be insensitive, in the least....

The more I think about it, I agree with you Jenifred, totally. I, too, think she was in a kneeling position...but leaning forward... (just as a visual, think of the religions who are in that position when they pray)... That would explain the report of being FOUND in a kneeling position. And, assuming paramedics were there, they could easily have moved her to her back while checking on her, thus accounting for Early's report that when he entered the room, she was on her back.

Sadly, as JG posted, the blood on the walls, etc., could have come from some sort of struggle, prior to being on the floor...

I do still wonder about the series of events. Were both people in the room all along? Was Janet taken by surprise? As JG has suggested, could she have been at the computer working on something and surprised from behind, etc.?

[JerseyGirl]

Remember SES that Rooster stated that Raven had tried to save Janet. If that's the case, then I would assume that if Janet was kneeling, it was Raven who found her that way and turned her over. He couldn't possibly have tried to save her otherwise.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Remember SES that Rooster stated that Raven had tried to save Janet. If that's the case, then I would assume that if Janet was kneeling, it was Raven who found her that way and turned her over. He couldn't possibly have tried to save her otherwise.
The reason the doesn't work for me is this -

We have this new info that she was found in a kneeling position. That obviously means that someone found/saw her like that.... the only people would be Raven or the paramedics (remember, she was on her back when LE got there). If Raven moved her to her back, then WHO reported she was "found in a kneeling position?" That only works if Raven himself made that report, which I suppose is possible.

[Moxie]

The reason the doesn't work for me is this -

We have this new info that she was found in a kneeling position. That obviously means that someone found/saw her like that.... the only people would be Raven or the paramedics (remember, she was on her back when LE got there). If Raven moved her to her back, then WHO reported she was "found in a kneeling position?" That only works if Raven himself made that report, which I suppose is possible.
Agreed. The only question I have is the blood in the bathroom that JF pointed out yesterday. How did it get there?

[SouthEastSleuth]

Agreed. The only question I have is the blood in the bathroom that JF pointed out yesterday. How did it get there?

Remember though Moxie, when we first talked about the bathroom evidence awhile back, we have no way of knowing IF the swabbing from the bathroom was in fact blood, or not. Who knows. If it was blood, it could easily have come from the perp somehow...in walking in the bathroom, for any # of reasons, ie., to clean up, etc.

[JerseyGirl]

I think that if the paramedics had found Janet in a kneeling position that that would have been relayed to LE.

[JerseyGirl]

Remember though Moxie, when we first talked about the bathroom evidence awhile back, we have no way of knowing IF the swabbing from the bathroom was in fact blood, or not. Who knows. If it was blood, it could easily have come from the perp somehow...in walking in the bathroom, for any # of reasons, ie., to clean up, etc.Does anyone know where the earlier discussions of the blood in the bathroom are? We should probably link them here to help us in this current discussion.

[golfmom]

Page #12 of the previous evidence thread.

[SouthEastSleuth]

I think that if the paramedics had found Janet in a kneeling position that that would have been relayed to LE.
I agree, totally! But, that said, that doesn't mean that that info would be in the search warrant info....remember, the warrant info doesn't even mention the paramedics, at all.

I wonder if the kneeling info was in the text/narrative of the ME report.

[golfmom]

I agree, totally! But, that said, that doesn't mean that that info would be in the search warrant info....remember, the warrant info doesn't even mention the paramedics, at all.

I wonder if the kneeling info was in the text/narrative of the ME report.

It has to be, doesn't it? Considering the ME released the report and the reporter used the report to write her report. :waitasec:

[JerseyGirl]

I wonder if the kneeling info was in the text/narrative of the ME report.Well if it was the paramedics that found her kneeling, then Raven couldn't have tried to save her. But Rooster said that he did. So either Raven was lying, Rooster was lying, or we have bad information in the kneeling statement. Whatever the case, I really feel it needs to be looked into.

[Moxie]

It has to be, doesn't it? Considering the ME released the report and the reporter used the report to write her report. :waitasec:
I would imagine it was in the report, since that is what the reporter used as her source.

[Moxie]

Well if it was the paramedics that found her kneeling, then Raven couldn't have tried to save her. But Rooster said that he did. So either Raven was lying, Rooster was lying, or we have bad information in the kneeling statement. Whatever the case, I really feel it needs to be looked into.
I agree. It would have not been possible for Raven to have tried to "save" her if she had been kneeling. We do need to look into this, might it be possible that Raven did not try to save her?

[JerseyGirl]

I agree. It would have not been possible for Raven to have tried to "save" her if she had been kneeling. We do need to look into this, might it be possible that Raven did not try to save her?If it's in the ME report that she was kneeling, and LE has determined that the paramedics found her that way, then IMO there is no way that Raven could have tried to save her.

[Moxie]

If it's in the ME report that she was kneeling, and LE has determined that the paramedics found her that way, then IMO there is no way that Raven could have tried to save her.
That would be a hole in Raven's story then, huh?

[JerseyGirl]

That would be a hole in Raven's story then, huh?Sure would be. I wish we could know for sure what the source is for the kneeling information, and who found her that way. And whether or not Raven claimed to LE that he had tried to save her or only to Rooster or if Rooster even knows Raven, etc. So many things to think about.

Moxie, do you know if Raven had personally claimed to anyone that he had tried to save Janet?

Also, since the autopsy report has been released, is there any way for us to access it? I really think that we need to know who found Janet kneeling.

Anyway, here is the information from the article, and the context in which it was written, (as swiped from SES' post in the pregnancy thread):

newsobserver.com | Registration (http://www.newsobserver.com/user_registration/login/)

Janet Abaroa was pregnant when she was stabbed to death in her West Durham home, an autopsy report shows.

Durham police have made no arrests in the death of Abaroa, who was found in a kneeling position in her bedroom at 2606 Ferrand Drive the night of April 26. She was 25. Her 6-month-old son was in another room, unharmed.

The victim's husband, Raven Abaroa, discovered his wife's body late that night and called 911, telling an operator he thought she had been shot, police said.

According to the report released by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill, Janet Abaroa was stabbed in the neck and chest. It was likely the wound to the base of her neck, which cut into an artery and lung, that was the fatal blow, the report says. A sharp object also cut the woman's right middle finger, the report shows.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Durham police have made no arrests in the death of Abaroa, who was found in a kneeling position in her bedroom at 2606 Ferrand Drive the night of April 26. She was 25. Her 6-month-old son was in another room, unharmed.

The victim's husband, Raven Abaroa, discovered his wife's body late that night and called 911, telling an operator he thought she had been shot, police said.

According to the report released by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill, Janet Abaroa was stabbed in the neck and chest. It was likely the wound to the base of her neck, which cut into an artery and lung, that was the fatal blow, the report says. A sharp object also cut the woman's right middle finger, the report shows.

And this was the first and only time the word "kneeling" was used - so this reporter either got that info from the ME report, or, someone told her that...

[terminatrixator]

A major hole in Raven's story, along with other holes in his story, she's hurt, she was shot, etc.

[JerseyGirl]

A major hole in Raven's story, along with other holes in his story, she's hurt, she was shot, etc.But only if he did indeed tell anyone that he had tried to save her. So far, I only remember reading that in a post from Rooster. Has Raven told that to anyone else?

[JerseyGirl]

heraldsun.com: Police search for murder clues in e-mail (http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-637174.html)

... Raven Abaroa discovered his wife's body in an upstairs bedroom of their 2606 Ferrand Drive home shortly before 11 p.m. April 26, police have said. He called for help saying he believed his wife had been shot.

When the first officer arrived on the scene, Raven Abaroa told the officer that his wife was upstairs and was hurt, police have said.

The officer found Janet Abaroa lying on her back in an upstairs bedroom with a stab wound to her chest, according to an affidavit filed a week after the murder.

__________________________________________________ _______________

So if Janet had been kneeling, she was no longer kneeling when the first officer arrived. She was lying on her back at that point. Perhaps paramedics were up there with her but if not, and she was originally kneeling, Raven must have known by then that Janet was not simply "hurt".

But perhaps paramedics were with her and he didn't know the status.

And we don't know yet if it was Raven who led to the report of her kneeling, the paramedics, or if it is misinformation altogether.

[SouthEastSleuth]

heraldsun.com: Police search for murder clues in e-mail (http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-637174.html)

... Raven Abaroa discovered his wife's body in an upstairs bedroom of their 2606 Ferrand Drive home shortly before 11 p.m. April 26, police have said. He called for help saying he believed his wife had been shot.

When the first officer arrived on the scene, Raven Abaroa told the officer that his wife was upstairs and was hurt, police have said.

The officer found Janet Abaroa lying on her back in an upstairs bedroom with a stab wound to her chest, according to an affidavit filed a week after the murder.

__________________________________________________ _______________

So if Janet had been kneeling, she was no longer kneeling when the first officer arrived. She was lying on her back at that point. Perhaps paramedics were up there with her but if not, Raven must have known by then that Janet was not simply "hurt".

I've ALWAYS thought the use of the word "HURT" was odd. I mean who knows what one might say under those circumstances. But if on the 911 call he reports she was "shot," it would just seem more natural for him to say, she upstairs and she's been shot.... or perhaps by then he realized that saying shot seemed ridiculous, and said "hurt" just to avoid saying "shot" again?

[JerseyGirl]

When the first officer arrived on the scene, Raven Abaroa told the officer that his wife was upstairs and was hurt, police have said.

The officer found Janet Abaroa lying on her back in an upstairs bedroom with a stab wound to her chest, according to an affidavit filed a week after the murder.So we know that the first officer found her on her back. So either she was not kneeling or someone moved her before the first officer arrived. Do we know for sure that paramedics arrived before LE? If the paramedics were already there, why was Raven downstairs - I thought he was only downstairs to wait for someone to arrive to tend to Janet. I imagine that the paramedics could have asked him to leave the room.

Is there any way to know who arrived on the scene first?

[JerseyGirl]

The way the above article is worded, it sounds to me like the officer was the first one on the scene. It says that he found her on her back. It didn't say that he found her on her back, being attended to by paramedics. Is it possible that the paramedics had already been there and gone? I imagine that they'd wait for LE.

[JerseyGirl]

abc11tv.com: Officers Took Knives, Scissors for Murdered Woman's Home (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=3037112)

... The warrant says the victim's husband, Raven Abaroa, called police to "report a gunshot wound." Officers arrived and found his wife's body on the floor of a bedroom with what appeared to a stab wound in her chest...

Okay, I know I'm dragging this out but wouldn't it say that paramedics found her on the floor if they were the first on the scene?

Also interesting to note:

Police also are reexamining the couple's SUV after interviewing Raven Abaroa last week. Officers found it parked on the side of the couple' home during their initial investigation at the scene.

Last week? Did we ever establish the date on which the SUV was searched the second time? I thought it was the next day but this article makes it sound as if it could have been many days later.

ETA: It seems that the SUV was reinvestigated on April 28th, two days after the murder.

[mysteriew]

I'm thinking more along the lines that she was on her knees with her head on the floor. And I'm thinking that this must be the original position because in the police report the officer WL Early, said that there was a large amount of blood near the body. She must have collapsed there because if her lung was pierced, it would be very hard to breath. I'm just wondering why/how there was blood on the walls opposite and adjacent to the body.

Just thinking outloud.

Ok, picture this. Janet and the attacker are arguing, Janet is forced to her knees, the attacker is standing behind and above her. One knife thrust to the chest. There will be some cast-off, some oozing, but no big spurting. Your first instinct is to double over if you have abdominal or chest pain. So Janet doubles over, bending more toward the floor. Second thrust to the neck area- results in spurting- which is directed toward the floor. As attacker was standing behind and above her, all blood would be directed away from the attacker- except maybe some slight spray droplets, which were probably not noticable at a casual glance.

[mysteriew]

The way the above article is worded, it sounds to me like the officer was the first one on the scene. It says that he found her on her back. It didn't say that he found her on her back, being attended to by paramedics. Is it possible that the paramedics had already been there and gone? I imagine that they'd wait for LE.

Procedure says that they wait until LE arrives and they can turn the scene over to him. LE then usually makes a record of all paramedics at the scene- as potiential witnesses.

[JerseyGirl]

I've thought of that scenario too, mysteriew. I wonder if an attacker would have had some visible signs of injury to him or herself in that type of situation.

[JerseyGirl]

Procedure says that they wait until LE arrives and they can turn the scene over to him. LE then usually makes a record of all paramedics at the scene- as potiential witnesses.Would this info have been noted in any warrants, etc. In other words, if the paramedics arrived before the first officer, would we have seen that noted somewhere by now?

[mysteriew]

Remember though Moxie, when we first talked about the bathroom evidence awhile back, we have no way of knowing IF the swabbing from the bathroom was in fact blood, or not. Who knows. If it was blood, it could easily have come from the perp somehow...in walking in the bathroom, for any # of reasons, ie., to clean up, etc.

I would think that it would be standard procedure in a murder for LE to take a swab of any sink in the household. Was the kitchen sink swabbed (I can't remember)?

[JerseyGirl]

I would think that it would be standard procedure in a murder for LE to take a swab of any sink in the household. Was the kitchen sink swabbed (I can't remember)?If I'm remembering correctly, a swab was done of the bathroom floor.

I thought a swab was done on something specific, not just to test a general area? I can never keep this all straight.

[terminatrixator]

I believe Paramedics have to wait for police to arrive before going in on calls like this one. Does anyone know how this works. I thought this is something I have heard in the past, that the police must go in first BEFORE the paramedics because of the nature of the crime. Usually when someone in our family called the paramedics, though the paramedics arrived first, they basically wait until the squad arrives and the police enter the residence first.

Anyone know the rules of this?

Following is an article talking about Preservation of crime scenes.

http://www.cji.net/CJI/CenterInfo/fscec/Preservation-2.htm

This following link is not going to help much right now, but can be useful in other cases.

INVESTIGATION OF THE VIOLENT CRIME EXEMPLAR

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/315/315lect10.htm

Perhaps someone can put this link elsewhere on WS that can be referred to in other cases.

[mysteriew]

Would this info have been noted in any warrants, etc. In other words, if the paramedics arrived before the first officer, would we have seen that noted somewhere by now?

Probably would be in the investigative reports but not the warrants. But how about the 911 call? Was this reported as a shooting there? If so, procedure says that LE clears the scene before the paramedics come in. Usually LE will try to arrive first.
It could very well be that Raven is the one who said she was in a kneeling postion and that he turned her on her back to help her before he called police. I would think her position would be one of the questions that LE would ask right off the bat. It would also be logical if you came upon a non-responsive person in a kneeling position- that you would turn them, to where you could better examine them.

[terminatrixator]

So far, all I can find is in cases of known Domestic Violence Paramedics are not allowed to enter the scene until Police arrive. I wish I knew more, which will help in figuring this out.

[JerseyGirl]

In the 911 call, it was reported as a possible gunshot. And after looking at the search warrant, I'm 95% convinced that the officer was on the scene first, and it states that he found Janet on her back. I'll try to find a linkable copy shortly.

I agree that Raven could have turned her over to try to save her. But something's not meshing. Either she wasn't on her knees or Raven turned her over. If Raven turned her over, how did he miss the fact that it was not a gunshot but multiple stabbings, and even if he did miss it, why did he tell the officer that his wife was hurt when he must have known that she was dead? Unless she had died between the time that he found her and the time that LE arrived.

[SouthEastSleuth]

Ok, so the one FACT we have is this - Investigator Early writes in his narrative for the search warrant the the victim was on her back.

That said, IF Janet was "found" in a kneeling position - then it must have been BEFORE the Investigator entered the room. AND, if LE comes in prior to paramedics, then, we can surmise that it must have been Raven himself that reported that Janet was in a kneeling position - and then, as mysteriew says, Raven must have moved the body, in order for Janet to have then been on her back.

[chicoliving]

According to the report released by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill, Janet Abaroa was stabbed in the neck and chest. It was likely the wound to the base of her neck, which cut into an artery and lung, that was the fatal blow, the report says. A sharp object also cut the woman's right middle finger, the report shows.
Hmmm I think its possible Janet could have been in a kneeling position or partially kneeling postion when the fatal blow was struck......to me it seems like a stabbing blow to the base of the neck would be hard to do if the perps were close in height but easier and more forceful if the victim is "below" the perp....

The reports by the various individuals will vary a tad when it comes to their observations at the time of their arrival on the scene. So far nothing suggests Raven tried to save Janet that I've read.

[JerseyGirl]

and then, as mysteriew says, Raven must have moved the body, in order for Janet to have then been on her back.And so how, in moving the body & trying to save her, did he not recognize that there were multiple stab wounds? And without TOD, we can't know if she was already gone at the point when he found her but LE knows. Just trying to help put the pieces together. If it has been determined that she was already deceased before Raven found her, then Raven calling her "hurt" after physically turning her over is a problem.

[newkid]

I wonder if the kneeling info was in the text/narrative of the ME report.
If she had been dead for even just a couple of hours when she was found, livor mortis would have begun and been at least partially visible. It should have been noted by those investigating the crime scene and on this may be what they're basing the position of the body.

[JerseyGirl]

The reports by the various individuals will vary a tad when it comes to their observations at the time of their arrival on the scene. So far nothing suggests Raven tried to save Janet that I've read.I agree. I'm only talking about the post that Rooster made about Raven trying to save Janet. If Rooster really does know Raven, then s/he got that information from somewhere. If Raven himself told Rooster that he tried to save Janet but LE's information shows that Janet was gone before Raven found her, LE might want to get a statement from Rooster. And if Raven claims that Janet was on her knees but she was on her back when the first person arrived, then Raven moved her. If she was already deceased, he would have known that, and wouldn't have said that she was hurt.

Anyway, here is the search warrant link:

WRAL.com - Slideshow (http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=4;w=800)

Read it with attention to Patrol Officer Williams.

[terminatrixator]

Okay so the way I'm seeing this, Raven reported in his 911 call that he believed Janet was shot and when the officer arrived, he said Janet was hurt, or was this vice versa? Did he say hurt/then shot both in the 911 call. Has the 911 call transcripts been released? Is there a way to get ahold of transcripts for the phone call.

I am now positive that LE arrived prior to Paramedics because it would definitely state Paramedics arrived first.

All crime scenes have a Log that is mandatory, and it would show exactly what personnel entered the crime scene first and their movements at the time.

[JerseyGirl]

Anyway, here is the search warrant link:

WRAL.com - Slideshow (http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=4;w=800)

Read it with attention to Patrol Officer Williams.Also note that it states that after speaking with Mr. Abaroa, Officer Williams entered the residence. So evidently they spoke outside. We've heard that Raven was waiting outside for help to arrive.

[JerseyGirl]

I would think that it would be standard procedure in a murder for LE to take a swab of any sink in the household. Was the kitchen sink swabbed (I can't remember)?I believe that a swabbing was done on the bathroom floor and the kitchen counter. I don't remember reading anything about sinks or drains. I'm looking at the search warrant right now. It's in here somewhere. But keep in mind that there are some numbered items missing from this warrant. Here's the link again:

WRAL.com - Slideshow (http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=7;w=800)

[JerseyGirl]

Okay so the way I'm seeing this, Raven reported in his 911 call that he believed Janet was shot and when the officer arrived, he said Janet was hurt, or was this vice versa?In the search warrant, it states that Raven told Patrol Officer Williams in person that his wife was upstairs and that she was hurt. I think that the warrant also states that the call was for a gunshot.

[terminatrixator]

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/315/315lect10.htm
ESTIMATING THE TIME OF DEATH

There's always going to be at least two (2) estimates of the time of death -- the police department's official estimate (which may or may not be yours) and the Medical Examiner's estimate. Legally, you should be within 4 hours of being accurate, but this is a tough standard even for the best coroners. Remember that, after death, the body starts to cool down to whatever the outside (or room) temperature is. At death, the body starts to drop from it's normal 98.6 degrees by a factor of 3 degrees the first hour and a factor of 1 degree each subsequent hour. Then, after 30 hours, it starts to go up again because of the heat generated by decomposition (but this varies by room or outside temperature, so you need to know weather conditions). The following table illustrates:



98.6 - time of death

95.6 - one hour after death

94.6 - two hours after death

93.6 - three hours after death

92.6 - four hours after death

91.6 - five hours after death

90.6 - six hours after death

-------- (to room or outside temp.)

66.6 - thirty hours after death

[JerseyGirl]

Okay, in case it doesn't take you to the specific page, it's on page 10.

WRAL.com - Slideshow (http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=1;w=800)

Swabbings & controls, (which means that they were swabbing a specific something, correct?), from:

- the kitchen counter
- the master bathroom floor
- opposite wall of victim in office
- desk door
- back of desk
- wall adjacent to the victim
- carpet from below the victim

I'm curious - why would they swab the desk door, (most likely the front of the desk), as well as the back of the desk? I don't know how the desk was situated in the room but that struck me as odd.

[JerseyGirl]

Collected from Raven:

- undershirt
- sports shirt
- sweatshirt
- shorts
- 2 pairs of socks
- Clim(a)cool shoes

This could very well be what Raven wore to play soccer since it states "sports shirt" and the athletic shoes.

[mysteriew]

This is merely an observation. Many people (esp innocent people, but also people trying to evade a truth) will say someone is hurt, or that they won't respond- even when it is apparent that the victim is dead. It is part of the denial factor- they want to deny that the person is gone.
Another observation. Yes a knife makes a slit wound and a gunshot makes a hole, so you think that they would look different. However, the truth is that after a gunshot- the tissue collapses into the void- sometimes leaving the appearance of a slit to an untrained, emotional observer. I would assume that Raven did not probe the wound to get more info. Upon coming onto a body with a lot of blood- a lot of people would make the assumption that they must have been shot. If Raven is innocent, I would guess that he made some assumptions at the scene that he used in reporting to 911 and LE. They could also be statements he made to show he knew less about what happened, than he actually knows. There isn't enough info there to actually tell us what is true.

[chicoliving]

So is the office a separate room from the bedroom?? For some reason I've been stuck on the bedroom served as an office also....

[JerseyGirl]

So is the office a separate room from the bedroom?? For some reason I've been stuck on the bedroom served as an office also....It's the 3rd bedroom in the house. As far as I know, it's set up as an office with no bedroom furniture.

[JerseyGirl]

If Raven is innocent, I would guess that he made some assumptions at the scene that he used in reporting to 911 and LE.Good point.

ETA: So the only hope of interpreting this is if it is somehow clear that Janet was already deceased when Raven found her. Otherwise, it's all subjective.

[mysteriew]

Okay, in case it doesn't take you to the specific page, it's on page 10.

Swabbings & controls, (which means that they were swabbing a specific something, correct?), from:

- the kitchen counter
- the master bathroom floor
- opposite wall of victim in office
- desk door
- back of desk
- wall adjacent to the victim
- carpet from below the victim

I'm curious - why would they swab the desk door, (most likely the front of the desk), as well as the back of the desk? I don't know how the desk was situated in the room but that struck me as odd.

I don't know about in LE investigative terminology, but a control is usually a "clean" sample. For instance if they were to test a stain- a swab would be taken of the stain, and a control would be a swab of an area that was free of the stain. Thus in analyzing the control would help to establish what was diffent in the stained swab.

[JerseyGirl]

I don't know about in LE investigative terminology, but a control is usually a "clean" sample. For instance if they were to test a stain- a swab would be taken of the stain, and a control would be a swab of an area that was free of the stain. Thus in analyzing the control would help to establish what was diffent in the stained swab.So then it is true that a swab with a control would be done on a specific stain that they would like to look into further, not just on a general area.

[mysteriew]

So then it is true that a swab with a control would be done on a specific stain that they would like to look into further, not just on a general area.

That would be my guess. Since the control is to rule out contaminates.

[texasgirl]

I believe Paramedics have to wait for police to arrive before going in on calls like this one. Does anyone know how this works. I thought this is something I have heard in the past, that the police must go in first BEFORE the paramedics because of the nature of the crime. Usually when someone in our family called the paramedics, though the paramedics arrived first, they basically wait until the squad arrives and the police enter the residence first.

Anyone know the rules of this?


My fiance' is in LE and that is indeed the way it works. Paramedics, Fire Department, etc are not allowed to go in until a scene has been cleared of any risk to them. I know that on occasion, it still happens but the rule is that they must wait for LE to access the situation and make sure that Paramedics and Fire officials are not at risk. That's the way it is here anyway...

[mysteriew]

My fiance' is in LE and that is indeed the way it works. Paramedics, Fire Department, etc are not allowed to go in until a scene has been cleared of any risk to them. I know that on occasion, it still happens but the rule is that they must wait for LE to access the situation and make sure that Paramedics and Fire officials are not at risk. That's the way it is here anyway...

Years ago I ran squad, and that was the rule for us also. LE checks the scene to make sure it is safe (free of suspects) before allowing rescue into it. We even staged in an area nearby at times, waiting until LE cleared the scene. Only when the scene was determined to be free of any suspects, would we be allowed into it to treat the injured.

[JerseyGirl]

My fiance' is in LE and that is indeed the way it works. Paramedics, Fire Department, etc are not allowed to go in until a scene has been cleared of any risk to them. I know that on occasion, it still happens but the rule is that they must wait for LE to access the situation and make sure that Paramedics and Fire officials are not at risk. That's the way it is here anyway...Makes perfect sense. And the articles and the information contained in the search warrant all seem to support the idea that the officer was indeed the first one to enter the residence that night.

Bottom line - either Janet was not in a kneeling position, or that is the way that Raven stated he found her, and he moved her before anyone arrived on the scene. ETA: So how exactly did that end up in the most recent article? Would the ME's report include Raven's statements about how she was found?

[JerseyGirl]

Yes a knife makes a slit wound and a gunshot makes a hole, so you think that they would look different. However, the truth is that after a gunshot- the tissue collapses into the void- sometimes leaving the appearance of a slit to an untrained, emotional observer.Am I understanding you correctly - that a gunshot can look like a slit (stabbing)? We're wondering about it the other way around - can a stabbing look like a gunshot? ETA: In a link I posted earlier, there's a video with a diagram of the wounds, and next to the two wounds that were visible in the diagram, it says 1". I can't be sure but I was assuming that that was the width of the wounds. I don't know if that gives you a better idea of how likely or unlikely it would be that the wounds would appear to be gunshot wounds rather than stab wounds.

[mysteriew]

Am I understanding you correctly - that a gunshot can look like a slit (stabbing)? We're wondering about is the other way around - can a stabbing look like a gunshot? ETA: In a link I posted earlier, there's a video with a diagram of the wounds, and next to the two wounds that were visible in the diagram, it says 1". I can't be sure but I was assuming that that was the width of the wounds. I don't know if that gives you a better idea of how likely or unlikely it would be that the wounds would appear to be gunshot wounds rather than stab wounds.

It depends on the caliber of the gun, the distance of the shot, and the experience of the person who sees it. For instance an LE officer would look for an exit wound. A person seeing their loved one wouldn't even necessarily think about it. A small caliber weapon entering the body would leave a small hole going in, and a larger one going out. A large caliber weapon would leave a larger hole going in, and a really big one going out. But both "holes" would collapse upon itself- with the smaller hole looking more like a slit. In diagrams they show it as a hole, but in reality it will look more like a slit.
Edited to add: A knife wound where the knife is twisted in the wound, can leave a hole.
This is why LE ususally won't say whether a person is shot or stabbed until after an autopsy.

[JerseyGirl]

Okay, so a gunshot CAN appear to be a stabbing but not necessarily. BUT can a stabbing look like a gunshot?

[mysteriew]

Okay, so a gunshot CAN appear to be a stabbing but not necessarily. BUT can a stabbing look like a gunshot?

Yes, I edited my above post. If the knife is twisted just right in the wound, it can appear similiar to a gunshot. Depends on the size of the knife also.

[JerseyGirl]

Yes, I edited my above post. If the knife is twisted just right in the wound, it can appear similiar to a gunshot. Depends on the size of the knife also.I see what you mean. While one inch, (if I'm interpreting the diagram correctly), seems to be much to large to appear as a gunshot, I can honestly see how someone might confuse the two, especially if in a state of panic or shock at the time.

[LTUlegal]

Might I add this....isn't this story the ONLY one that says she was found kneeling? If so, could this reporter be reporting the information falsely? It HAS happened before. Which means we could be going in circles, once again, over nothing? Sorry to throw that wrench into it.

[JerseyGirl]

Might I add this....isn't this story the ONLY one that says she was found kneeling? If so, could this reporter be reporting the information falsely? It HAS happened before. Which means we could be going in circles, once again, over nothing? Sorry to throw that wrench into it.Okay, that's enough of that!!! lol. We need SOMETHING to talk about!

We need to see documents ... that'd clear this right up.

[JerseyGirl]

Might I add this....isn't this story the ONLY one that says she was found kneeling? If so, could this reporter be reporting the information falsely? It HAS happened before. Which means we could be going in circles, once again, over nothing? Sorry to throw that wrench into it.Well here's my thought. The reporter who wrote the story had the ME report, didn't she? (It is a woman?) If we are right in determining that Raven was the only one in the house prior to the officer arriving and finding Janet on her back, then there are only two ways that the reporter could have gotten this information.

1) From a reliable source - leak from LE; ME report; some other official document based on Raven's answers during questioning

OR

2) Raven or someone close to him granted the reporter that information.

For the time being, I assume that the reporter either got this information from source #1 or she is completely incorrect. I don't think that anyone in Raven's camp gave her the info. Once we have a chance to view the ME report, hopefully we'll have a better idea of whether or not the kneeling statement is factual, and upon what it is based.

[LTUlegal]

Sorry, JG...SOMEbody needed to pee on your Wheaties, I thought it'd be me. ;)

[JerseyGirl]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Never heard that one before! LOL.

Sorry, JG...SOMEbody needed to pee on your Wheaties, I thought it'd be me. ;)

[LTUlegal]

And, does anyone else find it odd that it doesn't appear that Raven was contacted for comment regarding the pregancy? Or if he was, he apparently declined to comment? But if someone has declined comment, don't they usually put that in the report?

and, should I have posted this in the pregnancy thread? They're all running together.

[JerseyGirl]

And, does anyone else find it odd that it doesn't appear that Raven was contacted for comment regarding the pregancy? Or if he was, he apparently declined to comment? But if someone has declined comment, don't they usually put that in the report?Yes, they do. And that's a very good point. They would say that Mr. Abaroa couldn't be reached for comment or declined our request for an interview or something like that.

Perhaps they didn't reach out to him for comments since if he is innocent, it might be a bit on the insensitive side to do so. Then again, the media isn't often worried about being tactful.

[LTUlegal]

Yes, they do. And that's a very good point. They would say that Mr. Abaroa couldn't be reached for comment or declined our request for an interview or something like that.

Perhaps they didn't reach out to him for comments since if he is innocent, it might be a bit on the insensitive side to do so. Then again, the media isn't often worried about being tactful.

That's what I thought, too. I would've thought that at least ONE of them would have asked, "Mr. Abaroa, did you know your wife was pregnant at the time of her murder?" But maybe LE has told them not to, to let them hang him. Although, it would be sort of nice to see it recorded, sort of like the sp interviews. Let his own words hang him.

[terminatrixator]

I ain't wiz'n on anyone's wheaties today, I did that yesterday and felt like crud.

OMG that's the icon the icon I always and forever wanted for CTV is here - I swear that's so me....:doh::doh::doh:.

Anyhow, I believe the reporter is the same reporter that wrote on Raven's blog and I don't think Raven would want to talk to her, and I'm really wanting to hear a statement of any kind from Raven.

Raven, your wife and child were murdered. What do you have to say? When was the last time you you called LE to see how the case is going? Do you care?

Woops, guess I forgot that I wasn't to wiz on anyones wheaties today.

[JerseyGirl]

Anyhow, I believe the reporter is the same reporter that wrote on Raven's blog and I don't think Raven would want to talk to her, and I'm really wanting to hear a statement of any kind from Raven.It's definitely the same reporter. I had forgotten all about Raven's apparent dislike of and/or disinterest in the reporter. So we can be fairly certain that Raven, himself, did not pass along to the reporter the position of Janet when he first discovered her that night.

[golfmom]

It's definitely the same reporter. I had forgotten all about Raven's apparent dislike of and/or disinterest in the reporter. So we can be fairly certain that Raven, himself, did not pass along to the reporter the position of Janet when he first discovered her that night.

It's interesting that all this time has gone by and he hasn't made even one media plea.

[mysteriew]

It's interesting that all this time has gone by and he hasn't made even one media plea.

I can excuse a lot of things. A bereaved person can throw themselves into activity after activity in order not to allow themselves time for thinking. A bereaved person has even been known to reach for warm comforting arms. But the fact that he hasn't made a plea for public assistance in finding the murderer, now that one really bothers me. Even OJ and Peterbutt gave lip service to a plea of help to solve the case. His whole attitude seems to be "just don't even remind me I was married". But then I don't understand the family not speaking out either. Even the most reserved of the victim's families step up to the podium occasionally to ask for public assistance in solving if they get the opportunity. I just don't understand.

[terminatrixator]

I honestly believe because of the publicity that Durham, NC received during the Michael Peterson trial that LE has persuaded the family to keep a low media profile. I guess in this instance, the family is still in shock and feels like that have no clue what they are suppose to do.

I believe LE is tight-lipped more because of the repercussions of the Michael Peterson trial, especially with the new appeal coming forward, that they don't want to taint jury pool, or whatever problems intense media scrutiny brings as in the Scott Peterson trial.

I guess since we are not in their shoes, they are still in shock, and have no clue what to do, and are still getting over their shock, that may be why they are not all over the media.

Another thing, I think with Raven's personality, there may be some hesitation because of his horrible temper. I'm just guessing.

[lauriej]

I see what you mean. While one inch, (if I'm interpreting the diagram correctly), seems to be much to large to appear as a gunshot, I can honestly see how someone might confuse the two, especially if in a state of panic or shock at the time.
.........i'll agree............i can't say that i could identify a gunshot wound from a stab wound...........especially in a panic...

........however.......if i was ever wounded in an attack of any sort, and my husband "thought i was "hurt"...............once i recovered ,he'd better have clothing soaked in blood from his attempts at helping me!

......from my recall, raven found her........."tried to help her" ( per 'rooster's postings' ) and yet was downstairs waiting on LE when they arrived........
...he wasn't AT HER SIDE while she "was hurt" and maybe dying ???
...his clothes weren't drenched in blood from comforting her ???
...the above 2 statements have always bothered me..................still do.......

[lauriej]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....i had remembered 'rooster's' posting on how he had info that raven tried to save janet.............but went looking for the actual post.....

Rooster 06/11/2005

"This blood is from Raven Running to get his phone out of the durango...After he found Janet...tried to save her:( ...ran outside(getting blood on the door) to get his phone from the Durango. The door was locked...back inside to get Janets phone or keys to the Durango.

This evidance will not "hang" Raven. LE knows all of this...still, Raven has not been arrested or charged or named a susspect. He is innocent!

...( and i recall from 'back then' we did a lot of discussing on WHY go all the way outside to get his phone from a locked vehicle anyway ? why not just grab the nearest phone in the house, janet's ??why WOULD mr. tech himself have left part of his own body..........his cell-phone.......IN the vehicle to begin with ???)

...but...........in looking for that particular post by rooster, what really catches my eye today is that no less than 3 times does rooster, ( on his own, without alluding to raven this time ) mentions the possibility that this was a case of rape.........i had NOT remembered that at all..........

06/11 evidence:
Rooster:

I don't know who.:( But I have theory...I think someone was watching her and the house, with intention's to rape her.(I hate even typing this...it make's me sick.) They waited until Raven left to his game. Now keep in mind if they had been watching the house they probably knew if they saw Raven leave in his Soccer clothes, with his soccer bag. (don't know if he had one...I'm just speculating.) Then they would know they had (however long), as long as a soccer game take's, to do what they intended.
I think Janet fought the rapest/murder and he killed her. I think maybe he was only intending to rape. But ended up killing her because she fought back.
He then probably ran...

06/11 evidence:
Rooster:

Unless, he DIDN'T necessarily WANT to murder her and when he saw that he did he ran. Maybe the motive was only rape. ???


06/12 evidence:
Rooster:

Jenifred found some information about rape's and murder's in the same area. So, it's a possibility. (Look at discussion #4

This is all theory.

.........rooster appeared to have " insider info" from raven himself in his posts.........as if he were a close friend perhaps...

...but why all the 'rape' as a possible motive ??
...discussion 'back then' was going fast and furious all over the place, but it sure caught me by surprise to read tonight that rooster was on this rape motive tangent for a couple of days ....

...i do wish that rooster would come back now and help to clear some things up..........

[JerseyGirl]

......from my recall, raven found her........."tried to help her" ( per 'rooster's postings' ) and yet was downstairs waiting on LE when they arrived........
...he wasn't AT HER SIDE while she "was hurt" and maybe dying ???
...his clothes weren't drenched in blood from comforting her ???Well, we honestly don't know if his clothes were covered in blood. I still haven't learned anything about that one way or the other.

But about him waiting outside ... you are so right. We've talked about the house being set back pretty far from the road and all of the trees, etc. But since it was April, perhaps you could still see through the trees to the street. I wonder if he was running up and down the driveway to look for them or if he was able to see the street from the porch.

Was Janet already gone when he was waiting? If not, why WASN'T he with her? Was he told to wait outside, (doubtful)? If the ambulance would have driven right past the house while he was on the porch, would he have been able to stop them anyway or would his time have been better spent holding his wife after turning on the porch light and propping the door open with something to make the house more noticeable to LE? The waiting outside for LE has always bothered me as well, just as the "gunshot" call has, just as not knowing where Kaiden was has.

[SouthEastSleuth]

To play devil's advocate a second -

according to the text of the warrant application:

"Off. Williams advised this investigator (Early) that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that his wife was upstairs, and that she was hurt. Off. Williams entered the residence...."

So, is it possible that Raven had been upstairs, and came downstairs simply to open the door when Off. Williams knocked/rang the bell, whatever?

I always was under the impression as well, for some reason, that Raven was outside, etc. But, perhaps not? It's not like I especially enjoy giving Raven the benefit of a doubt in this situation, far from it, but in re-reading some things, could we have been making an incorrect assumption about this particular information?

That said, I STILL think the use of the word "hurt" is very odd...

[JerseyGirl]

...but...........in looking for that particular post by rooster, what really catches my eye today is that no less than 3 times does rooster, ( on his own, without alluding to raven this time ) mentions the possibility that this was a case of rape.........i had NOT remembered that at all..........That IS interesting now that you mention it. Could it be just a theory? Could it be someone trying to steer our thinking in another direction?

I wonder why a rapist would snatch a laptop on his way out though?

Maybe it's someone Janet was corresponding with innocently that was "flirting" with her online or in e-mails? I guess that if there's anything to that, the newly seized computer activity information will help.

But how odd that Rooster would say that - we've never heard anything about missing or torn clothing or anything, have we?

[JerseyGirl]

SES, I thought that we had heard for sure that he was waiting outside. I can't remember now as we've been talking about this all for so long and have talked ourselves in circles several times.

I wonder ... what door did LE come to? Was there any blood on that door or would they even mention it if they knew that it had come from Raven touching the door to let them in?

[JerseyGirl]

Does anyone remember what, if anything, was missing from the house? And if anything was missing, how, when, and by whom was it discovered? ETA: At this point, maybe it is a good idea to discuss other possible motives.

[terminatrixator]

I really don't buy into this "Rapist" theory whatsoever or someone waiting for Raven to leave and knowing the timing of how long Raven would be gone.

Why is he justifying the blood on the doors. The blood they found was on the side door/back door, is that where Raven's vehicle was?

Raven in letting in the police, would also have been carrying Kaiden, wouldn't he, because the 911 operator told him to go get Kaiden, who was crying.

Also, if she was still "hurt" as Raven claims, wouldn't he be there still, trying to put pressure on the wounds and staying at her side.

I think this whole thing by Rooster is nothing but bunk.

[JerseyGirl]

Why is he justifying the blood on the doors. The blood they found was on the side door/back door, is that where Raven's vehicle was?I think we've heard that it was. I've always found it remarkably convenient that Raven had to run in and out to get the phone. It's a good story to have handy just in case you may have inadvertantly left some blood behind. Then again, if you were going to do that, why the part about the door being locked? You'd say that you were in the vehicle as well, wouldn't you? Then again, this account DID come from Rooster so it could be inaccurate as we really have no idea of knowing if Rooster is legitimate.

Raven in letting in the police, would also have been carrying Kaiden, wouldn't he, because the 911 operator told him to go get Kaiden, who was crying.Good point. Unfortunately, we've had no way to determine where Kaiden was one way or the other. But you know what seems strange to me now that you mention it? If Raven believed that Janet was "hurt" when he made the 911 call, why on Earth would the operator tell him to go get the crying baby? Wouldn't the recommendation be to stay with the victim if there's a chance she's still alive? And why didn't he say "No way, I need to help my wife - she's dying?" I suppose it could be a safety issue in case the perp was still in the house. I'd pay really good money to hear that 911 call now.I think this whole thing by Rooster is nothing but bunk.I think that the rape thing most likely is. But I've always believed that Rooster knows Raven or someone very close to Raven. And his seeming knowledge of the house, the lack of phone service in the house, Raven's actions after arriving home, etc., piques my curiosity. I hope it's piqued LE's as well.

[golfmom]

But I've always believed that Rooster knows Raven or someone very close to Raven. And his seeming knowledge of the house, the lack of phone service in the house, Raven's actions after arriving home, etc., piques my curiosity. I hope it's piqued LE's as well.

If we take Rooster at his word here he did indicate that he was getting all this information directly from Raven.

[Tammie63]

I don't have time to research it but correct me if I am wrong Rooster stopped posting around the same time or soon after Raven headed back to be with his family. I sent Golfmom a PM around that time because I felt that ROOSTER was suspicious..I found the two bird names strange and the fact that "Rooster" seemed to be building trust to only steer this board away from believing Raven had anything to do with the murder. Call me nuts but at the time I wondered if Rooster wasn't Raven. I still do. Golfmom when I sent you that PM I just wanted someone with good knowledge of the case to tell me I was full of it and that Rooster was just someone that perhaps knew Raven etc. I never got a reply back but as I said before I still feel that ROOSTER was RAVEN and with the investigation/questions etc of this board was making him a bit nervous so he tried to gently steer this board to thinking someone else did it. Hope this make sense. :confused:

[golfmom]

I don't have time to research it but correct me if I am wrong Rooster stopped posting around the same time or soon after Raven headed back to be with his family. I sent Golfmom a PM around that time because I felt that ROOSTER was suspicious..I found the two bird names strange and the fact that "Rooster" seemed to be building trust to only steer this board away from believing Raven had anything to do with the murder. Call me nuts but at the time I wondered if Rooster wasn't Raven. I still do. Golfmom when I sent you that PM I just wanted someone with good knowledge of the case to tell me I was full of it and that Rooster was just someone that perhaps knew Raven etc. I never got a reply back but as I said before I still feel that ROOSTER was RAVEN and with the investigation/questions etc of this board was making him a bit nervous so he tried to gently steer this board to thinking someone else did it. Hope this make sense. :confused:

Tammie63! I am soooo sorry I didn't reply back to you. I LOVE to get pms and enjoy corresponding with folks here at WS ... so I don't know how I missed replying to you.

Can we have a do-over? :blowkiss:

Regarding Rooster, we all buzzed around with different ideas of who Rooster might be at one time or another. I must caution you though that trying to out another member is a violation of tos. That said, my pet theory is it was not Raven, but a close family member ... maybe a brother ? ? ? Who might have given him information and suggested what to post.

[mysteriew]

Rooster stopped posting back in June. However, he/she signed back on as recently as 08/02. I also considered the idea that Rooster was Raven, but then like Golfmom I decided it was a relative (or maybe the younger bro of a close friend). And probably young. And he/she was probably desperate to find a scenario that would explain the murder, that didn't involve Raven. When I read Rooster's posts, he proposed no less than three scenarios: burglary, revenge by a fired employee from when Raven was a manager, and rape. But, for someone who he said was close to Raven- he gave nothing to back up any of his own scenarios. And when questioned about his scenarios- he wasn't able to answer the questions that resulted. (actually he/she became miffed that no one would believe any of the scenario's.) So he/she is probably still reading. Just not going to post any more.

[lauriej]

To play devil's advocate a second -

according to the text of the warrant application:

"Off. Williams advised this investigator (Early) that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that his wife was upstairs, and that she was hurt. Off. Williams entered the residence...."

So, is it possible that Raven had been upstairs, and came downstairs simply to open the door when Off. Williams knocked/rang the bell, whatever?

I always was under the impression as well, for some reason, that Raven was outside, etc. But, perhaps not? It's not like I especially enjoy giving Raven the benefit of a doubt in this situation, far from it, but in re-reading some things, could we have been making an incorrect assumption about this particular information?

That said, I STILL think the use of the word "hurt" is very odd...
..you're right........( good thing for the analytical thinkers here........while i tend to just react to a single thought...)
...yes, he could have been with janet the entire time, coming down only when LE arrived...

...and, as jersey pointed out as well, we only know that his clothing was taken, not if it did or did not have blood on it.......

...officer williams does give confirmation in the text of the warrant application that raven did in fact say his wife was "upstairs and hurt"..and i know this a 3peat to the 'hurt' thing but, for crying out loud, he claims to have thought she had been shot, 'hurt' was the best he could come up with ???

...i wonder what he did actually say on the 911 call? i wonder what kind of condition his clothes were in when LE confiscated them? and where WAS kaiden when LE arrived ?
...hopefully we'll have this info soon, ..........does anyone know at what point LE does release the 911 transcript ?

[lauriej]

Rooster stopped posting back in June. However, he/she signed back on as recently as 08/02. I also considered the idea that Rooster was Raven, but then like Golfmom I decided it was a relative (or maybe the younger bro of a close friend). And probably young. And he/she was probably desperate to find a scenario that would explain the murder, that didn't involve Raven. When I read Rooster's posts, he proposed no less than three scenarios: burglary, revenge by a fired employee from when Raven was a manager, and rape. But, for someone who he said was close to Raven- he gave nothing to back up any of his own scenarios. And when questioned about his scenarios- he wasn't able to answer the questions that resulted. (actually he/she became miffed that no one would believe any of the scenario's.) So he/she is probably still reading. Just not going to post any more.
....that is interesting...........rooster did indeed post last on june 12th/05........but his/her last activity shows him here yesterday, just 3 minutes after you posted this......

...since he/she joined on june 3rd/05........
...made ALL of his/her 100 posts on this forum in a 10 day period,
...was here just yesteday,
... i'd have to say rooster is in fact reading here

[ewwwinteresting]

....that is interesting...........rooster did indeed post last on june 12th/05........but his/her last activity shows him here yesterday, just 3 minutes after you posted this......

...since he/she joined on june 3rd/05........